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Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.11.05

2013-12-18T02:38:12Z

Andrew Linden: Created page with "Simulator_User_Group {| | Prev 2013.10.29 | Next 2013.11.12 |} == List of Spe…"

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| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.10.29|Prev 2013.10.29]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.11.12|Next 2013.11.12]]
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== List of Speakers ==
{|
|ac14 Hutson
|Adamburp Adamczyk
|Duckie Dickins
|-
|Jenna Felton
|Jonathan Yap
|Kelly Linden
|-
|Kennylex Luckless
|Krisshall
|Lexbot Sinister
|-
|Lucia Nightfire
|Martinrj Fayray
|Mona Eberhardt
|-
|Nalates Urriah
|Nelson Jenkins
|Orchidmist
|-
|Petr Topaz
|pup Witherspoon
|Qie Niangao
|-
|Rex Cronon
|Simon Linden
|Siwo
|-
|Talarus Luan
|Tankmaster Finesmith
|Whirly Fizzle
|-
|Yuzuru Jewell
|}

== Transcript ==
[11:59] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Hi Simon.</nowiki>

[11:59] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Hello, Simon.</nowiki>

[11:59] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Hello, Nalates.</nowiki>

[11:59] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hi yuzuru</nowiki>

[11:59] Tankmaster Finesmith<nowiki>: heya simon</nowiki>

[11:59] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hi everybody</nowiki>

[11:59] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Hi Yuzuru</nowiki>

[12:00] rcdsQueChatLog<nowiki>: Rex Cronon, you can read the log here:</nowiki>

http://rcds.nfshost.com/ques_view_chatLog.php?queOwner=llsl:Rex<nowiki>+Cronon&queName=chatLog&pg=1</nowiki>

[12:00] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Hi everyone</nowiki>

[12:00] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hi simon</nowiki>

[12:00] Meeter<nowiki>: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group</nowiki>

[12:00] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Hia Simon</nowiki>

[12:00] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: yoohoo#</nowiki>

[12:00] Petr Topaz<nowiki>: Hello Simon</nowiki>

[12:00] ac14 Hutson<nowiki>: hello</nowiki>

[12:00] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: hello alll</nowiki>

[12:01] Tankmaster Finesmith<nowiki>: good meeting ya all!</nowiki>

[12:01] Tankmaster Finesmith<nowiki>: :P</nowiki>

[12:01] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hi jenna</nowiki>

[12:01] Tankmaster Finesmith<nowiki>: soo you next week!</nowiki>

[12:01] Tankmaster Finesmith<nowiki>: see*</nowiki>

[12:01] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: lets hope so tankmaster</nowiki>

[12:01] Tankmaster Finesmith<nowiki>: hehe silly meeter</nowiki>

[12:01] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: yup!</nowiki>

[12:01] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Let's get rolling .. Andrew and Baker won't be here today</nowiki>

[12:01] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Noooooooooo, no Baker no cooool!</nowiki>

[12:01] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: shit#</nowiki>

[12:01] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: *CENSORED*</nowiki>

[12:01] Simon Linden<nowiki>: This morning we updated the main server channel with the RC version</nowiki>

[12:01] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Details are here:</nowiki>

[12:01] Simon Linden<nowiki>: </nowiki>http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2013-11-04/td-p/2304517

[12:02] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: Andrew's Linden Bear will fill in for him this week. :)</nowiki>

[12:02] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Weeee!</nowiki>

[12:02] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: did baker pulled a muscle?</nowiki>

[12:02] Tankmaster Finesmith<nowiki>: ill give baker's update: 'baker is still working ob group banz and will have something out in the future'</nowiki>

[12:02] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i heard that can happen if u twerk too much;)</nowiki>

[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Baker did pass along a message ... "I'm making good progress with the server side group ban stuff"</nowiki>

[12:02] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Hey Kelly.</nowiki>

[12:03] Petr Topaz<nowiki>: Hi Kelly</nowiki>

[12:03] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: hello</nowiki>

[12:04] Krisshall<nowiki>: sorry, broken attachment thing :/</nowiki>

[12:04] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That's about it for news or updates I know of, so the table is open for questions, ideas or whatever...</nowiki>

[12:04] Nelson Jenkins<nowiki>: I put something on the agenda about llLink*Sound</nowiki>

[12:04] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: I have a question</nowiki>

[12:04] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Is there a reason to still limit the size of the source text of a script to 64K?</nowiki>

[12:05] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hello kelly</nowiki>

[12:05] Simon Linden<nowiki>: oh yeah, there have been some jira feature requests about llLink-something with sounds. We've discussed it internally and it seems like a good idea, but needs some work to see if we can cover as much functionality as possible with a reasonable API</nowiki>

[12:05] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: not to 64k, You should be able to up the viewer limit (baring any issues with the UI widgets handling larger text buffers) up to at least 256k without much server side issues.</nowiki>

[12:06] Nelson Jenkins<nowiki>: okay, i just wanted to throw it out there to the server group, I brought it up yesterday in the content creation group and they shuffled me here</nowiki>

[12:06] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: That 64k is hardcoded to the viewer then?</nowiki>

[12:06] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: 'hard coded' - I think it is in the xui xml files</nowiki>

[12:06] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Okay, thank you</nowiki>

[12:07] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Experience Keys are in the news, being part of the roll to RC sims tomorrow... so, any hints of what to expect when it's really live?</nowiki>

[12:07] Tankmaster Finesmith<nowiki>: nest year :P</nowiki>

[12:07] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: there r some people with so many scripts in their attachments that if they were to use 256k than all sim memory allocated for scripts would run out:)</nowiki>

[12:08] Tankmaster Finesmith<nowiki>: theres a lot of no change windows coming soon with the various long holidays</nowiki>

[12:08] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Yeah, but how will it work, whenevr it goes live?</nowiki>

[12:08] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Oh yes, Rex. That's true.</nowiki>

[12:08] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Rex, the question was about the size of the source text</nowiki>

[12:08] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: well if they're mono scripts then they would only use up the memory they require</nowiki>

[12:08] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: the script text size does not directly effect the memory used on the sim, only the compiled size.</nowiki>

[12:09] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: not the size of the resultant compiled stuff</nowiki>

[12:09] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: the question was in regards to the text editor, not the script memory limit.</nowiki>

[12:09] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Qie - no, I'm clueless about that myself. The RC update is actually pretty minor and covers the back-end intrastructure</nowiki>

[12:09] Siwo<nowiki>: I'd like to know... why prims with bump and shine maps get such insane land impact?</nowiki>

[12:09] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: oh well. Had to ask. :) Thanks, Simon.</nowiki>

[12:09] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: u mean that using variable names of of size 1024 letters doesn't affect memory for script use?</nowiki>

[12:10] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Siwo, try setting them convex hull physics type?</nowiki>

[12:10] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Rex, lsl is not interpreted</nowiki>

[12:10] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: Siwo - simple- they are counted in the new LI system then. Set them to convex hull and they will be 2 LI each max.</nowiki>

[12:11] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: rex: the biggest argument for larger text editing I've seen is for systems that "compile" to LSL and want to keep the "source" in comments in the text. And/or extremely verbosely commented LSL</nowiki>

[12:11] Siwo<nowiki>: I know... but it is still pretty interesting when you can use whole sandbox capacity with one prim</nowiki>

[12:11] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: yup... we have been pointing that out for at least 6 months already ;)</nowiki>

[12:12] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Yup. :p</nowiki>

[12:12] Siwo<nowiki>: oh... okay :D</nowiki>

[12:12] ac14 Hutson<nowiki>: i HATE the firestorm preprocessor</nowiki>

[12:12] Tankmaster Finesmith<nowiki>: then dont use it :P</nowiki>

[12:12] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki> can make a spectacular torus.</nowiki>

[12:12] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: You can disable it o.O</nowiki>

[12:12] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hmm</nowiki>

[12:12] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: specular being the key word there</nowiki>

[12:12] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki> laughs</nowiki>

[12:12] ac14 Hutson<nowiki>: its other people woh use it. i dont need a copy of the script commented at the top of it</nowiki>

[12:13] ac14 Hutson<nowiki>: and trying to unwravel it is a mess.</nowiki>

[12:13] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: preprocessor works quite well with very complex scripts especially when you use it for your function library.</nowiki>

[12:13] Nelson Jenkins<nowiki>: function library for Second Life is also called "copy & paste"</nowiki>

[12:14] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: true but it's easier to edit a function once and then require all scripts that use that function than the nightmare of editing each script.</nowiki>

[12:14] ac14 Hutson<nowiki>: only reason i mentioned is because of what kelly said. about hte need for larger text editing.</nowiki>

[12:14] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: oops...recompile all scripts</nowiki>

[12:15] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Yeah, it would be nice, but it is pretty rare that I run into the editor limit before I run out of script memory anyway.</nowiki>

[12:15] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: and I am a very verbose commenter :P</nowiki>

[12:16] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: If anyone standing on the ceiling here right clicks an HUD and choose "Sit Here" do they see their image go halfway into the building instead of showing you sitting at your position? Also, turn off any sit AO you may be using.</nowiki>

[12:16] Tankmaster Finesmith<nowiki>: wy would there be an option to sit on a hud?</nowiki>

[12:16] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: I don't get a "Sit Here" option right-clicking on a HUD.. only "Sit Down"</nowiki>

[12:16] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Hmm I just sat as normal</nowiki>

[12:17] Krisshall<nowiki>: same here</nowiki>

[12:17] Krisshall<nowiki>: or only a sit down option</nowiki>

[12:17] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i think its a AO tnakmaster</nowiki>

[12:17] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: weird, now its working</nowiki>

[12:17] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: I get sit here right clicking a HUD</nowiki>

[12:17] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: will have to look into taht one</nowiki>

[12:17] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: Hah..nice prim baker over there in the corner. :)</nowiki>

[12:17] Krisshall<nowiki>: pie menus or the usual sort?</nowiki>

[12:17] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Oh pie</nowiki>

[12:18] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: also, sit option on HUD is a safety for hazardous environment</nowiki>

[12:18] Krisshall<nowiki>: <-- using the usual popup ones</nowiki>

[12:18] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: lulz.. hasn't been radial menus since 1.x :P</nowiki>

[12:18] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Yeah its sit down on context menu</nowiki>

[12:18] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: hazardous meaning people having perms followers covering everything and everyone</nowiki>

[12:18] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: also, I love my pie menu, heh</nowiki>

[12:18] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and pie</nowiki>

[12:19] Tankmaster Finesmith<nowiki>: most TPVs have pie even on V3 based code</nowiki>

[12:19] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: I wouldn't know. :P</nowiki>

[12:19] Nelson Jenkins<nowiki>: lies, Catznip and Exodus don't have it</nowiki>

[12:19] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: so i can sit on my huds?</nowiki>

[12:19] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: no Rex, you sit at your pos</nowiki>

[12:19] Tankmaster Finesmith<nowiki>: i said most, not all</nowiki>

[12:19] Simon Linden<nowiki>: go for it, Rex :P</nowiki>

[12:19] Nelson Jenkins<nowiki>: and I don't think Nirans has it, though can't confirm</nowiki>

[12:19] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i am doing that</nowiki>

[12:19] ac14 Hutson<nowiki>: alt shift s is sit down. no clicking needed</nowiki>

[12:19] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Nirans hsas pie</nowiki>

[12:19] Nelson Jenkins<nowiki>: so basically by "most TPVs" you meant "firestorm"</nowiki>

[12:20] Nelson Jenkins<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[12:20] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: The question came up again recently in scripter group chat... are we going to get Materials script functions any time soon?</nowiki>

[12:20] Nelson Jenkins<nowiki>: Nirans has the option for it but it's not the default</nowiki>

[12:20] Tankmaster Finesmith<nowiki>: kisrtian;s had it</nowiki>

[12:20] Orchidmist<nowiki>: I have a question when someone has a second. When I open my chat box, my FPS goes way down. Is there another way to read what you are all saying?</nowiki>

[12:20] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: its probably clicked-trough the hud and you selected sit on some object inworld?</nowiki>

[12:20] Krisshall<nowiki>: i think singularity had it, but can't remember now</nowiki>

[12:20] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: sitting on a hud is strange operation :)</nowiki>

[12:20] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Orchid: yeah, change viewers. :p</nowiki>

[12:20] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Orchid, change to compact view. Its a bug with sharestorm viewers</nowiki>

[12:20] Tankmaster Finesmith<nowiki>: singuarity is V1 UI, so they have it</nowiki>

[12:20] ac14 Hutson<nowiki>: yeah it seems the newer veris have some bug where the chat window eats the fps REALLY BAD</nowiki>

[12:21] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Only happens when in expanded mode</nowiki>

[12:21] Orchidmist<nowiki>: I'm using 3.6.9 SL</nowiki>

[12:21] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Its nasty teah</nowiki>

[12:21] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Yeah, that has the bug</nowiki>

[12:21] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: (right, compact view should fix it)</nowiki>

[12:21] Simon Linden<nowiki>: there are other modes too like the bubble chat</nowiki>

[12:21] pup Witherspoon<nowiki>: I have a couple questions when time allows.. since this is my first time here I'mnot sure of the protocol</nowiki>

[12:21] Orchidmist<nowiki>: ok will figure out compact view thank you all</nowiki>

[12:21] Simon Linden<nowiki>: we're pretty chaotic today, pup, so go ahead and ask</nowiki>

[12:21] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Ask, and if you don't get a response, ask again. :P</nowiki>

[12:22] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: For example:</nowiki>

[12:22] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: jump in whenever, you'll find a teet somewhere, heh</nowiki>

[12:22] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: The question came up again recently in scripter group chat... are we going to get Materials script functions any time soon?</nowiki>

[12:22] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Compact view on CHUI -> </nowiki>http://i.imgur.com/hzhcmAy.png

[12:22] Simon Linden<nowiki>: soon? no</nowiki>

[12:22] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: BTW,a question about FPS. How to limit them in the Lindenviewer to at last 30FPS? When i come here using the stndard viewer, my FPS go to 80, and my hard drive goes crasy. I feel it would fly away off my pc</nowiki>

[12:22] ac14 Hutson<nowiki>: yeah i want ot know about that also</nowiki>

[12:22] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: Poke kelly with a stick..you might get a maybe, Talarus.</nowiki>

[12:22] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Is it going to be difficult to add LSL control of materials parameters, Simon?</nowiki>

[12:23] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: fps should not have anything to do with your HD</nowiki>

[12:23] Nelson Jenkins<nowiki>: don't think FPS has any relation to your hard drive, yeah</nowiki>

[12:23] Tankmaster Finesmith<nowiki>: the limiting of FPS is not lnger supported int he LL viewer</nowiki>

[12:23] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: No, he kneejerks expecting me to ask about SCR-4 again. :P</nowiki>

[12:23] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Jenna - I have no idea why those would be connected</nowiki>

[12:23] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: MaxFPS is broken on V3</nowiki>

[12:23] Siwo<nowiki>: more like cooling fan, not HDD imho :]</nowiki>

[12:23] Tankmaster Finesmith<nowiki>: but the FPS rate doesnt impact the HD use</nowiki>

[12:23] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: oh yeah, we needs SCR-4</nowiki>

[12:23] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: definately, heh</nowiki>

[12:23] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: In windows you can monitor what exactly your HD is doing</nowiki>

[12:23] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: your viewer must be saveing locally all the data about the avatars her?</nowiki>

[12:23] pup Witherspoon<nowiki>: laughing.. ok first one is the memory leak re rezzing objects on sim and sim memory not being released - is there any estimate on a fix for that?</nowiki>

[12:24] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: hm. ok. i thought the graphic card needs then too many data and uses hard drive when rendering to many FPS</nowiki>

[12:24] Simon Linden<nowiki>: do you have your log window open? I wonder if somethings dumping a ton of data in there</nowiki>

[12:24] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Use expanded view! That will limit your FPS nicely ;)</nowiki>

[12:24] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: i wil test it, thanks</nowiki>

[12:25] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: (I like Siwo's cooling fan theory, instead of harddrive)</nowiki>

[12:25] Simon Linden<nowiki>: lol Whirly :)</nowiki>

[12:25] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: Or do you mean your computer swaps a lot when you have high FPS? maybe the cache is too small then.. i dunno...</nowiki>

[12:25] Nelson Jenkins<nowiki>: my money is on all of the textures being downloaded to/pulled from cache after teleporting here</nowiki>

[12:26] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: My money is on Vram and swapping.</nowiki>

[12:26] Simon Linden<nowiki>: pup ... do you have a good way to reproduce that memory leak?</nowiki>

[12:26] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: money?</nowiki>

[12:26] ac14 Hutson<nowiki>: i dont think "use compact view" its a fix. just a workaround right now. i also saw a huge fps drop (from 30 to around 1) when the edit window was open though i have been unable to get it to drop that bad again yet. there is certnely some werid bug with the newer chui.</nowiki>

[12:27] pup Witherspoon<nowiki>: sure, its easily replicated, just go to a sim, restart it, then rez a bunch of stuff and watch the memory usage climb and climb till you get error messages about being unable to rez</nowiki>

[12:27] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Theres a bug when you have edit open after youve had about land open on a region with a long covenant. That absolitely kills FPS</nowiki>

[12:27] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: I don't see Andrew today.. anyone know if he's had any luck looking at the llSetKeyframedMotion issue?</nowiki>

[12:28] pup Witherspoon<nowiki>: I'm assuming that someone dropped a bit of code to release the memory after the rez, but I don't know that for sure</nowiki>

[12:28] Orchidmist<nowiki>: bubble chat fixed it thank you Simon</nowiki>

[12:28] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: theres an unbannable agent wearing multiple sim crashers that was testing memory rise in WT for over 16 hours straight this morning, heh</nowiki>

[12:28] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Is it the memory allocated bug you're seeing? That seems to be caused by lots of terrain rebakes</nowiki>

[12:28] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: "testing" lol</nowiki>

[12:28] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: Thats what i call dedication lol</nowiki>

[12:28] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: Andrew Bear says he'll get back to you next week. :)</nowiki>

[12:29] pup Witherspoon<nowiki>: actually that appears to be fixed Lagadelia.. we can see memory jump when you rebake but drop back down, this seems more tied to building/rezzing</nowiki>

[12:29] Simon Linden<nowiki>: so to finally answer your question pup, no there isn't an estimated time to fix that</nowiki>

[12:29] Krisshall<nowiki>: 16 hours is a record</nowiki>

[12:29] pup Witherspoon<nowiki>: ok thank you</nowiki>

[12:29] Martinrj Fayray<nowiki>: kelly you suggested some time last year to raise the limit of script sizes (it's in panel_script_ed.xml) to 1 million, would that be ok if we do that as a contribution together with Oz?</nowiki>

[12:30] Martinrj Fayray<nowiki>: (viewerside of course)</nowiki>

[12:30] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: must have been a bot</nowiki>

[12:30] Martinrj Fayray<nowiki>: 1mio bytes</nowiki>

[12:30] Tankmaster Finesmith<nowiki>: that was covered earlier, marton :P</nowiki>

[12:30] Martinrj Fayray<nowiki>: I know I just had a talk with Jonathan</nowiki>

[12:30] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: its not a bot, Rex, he had several lookat types</nowiki>

[12:30] Simon Linden<nowiki>: has anyone checked the performance at that kind of script size?</nowiki>

[12:30] Martinrj Fayray<nowiki>: the only problem you have there is when you resize the script window</nowiki>

[12:31] Martinrj Fayray<nowiki>: but that's a general problem</nowiki>

[12:31] Martinrj Fayray<nowiki>: also in chat windows with alot of text</nowiki>

[12:31] Martinrj Fayray<nowiki>: *a lot</nowiki>

[12:31] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Hmm I thought that was fixed.</nowiki>

[12:31] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: BTW, guys... What about the physics memory allocation bug that causes the "cannot create object that has caused problems in this region" error message?</nowiki>

[12:31] Martinrj Fayray<nowiki>: it was? even better then:)</nowiki>

[12:31] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: One of Nickys submissions...checking....</nowiki>

[12:31] pup Witherspoon<nowiki>: that's one of the messages you get if the sim memory is too high</nowiki>

[12:32] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Mona - that kicks in when something is really slow or large to rez, and in this case it sounds like it's hitting a memory limit</nowiki>

[12:32] Simon Linden<nowiki>: are you talking about full regions?</nowiki>

[12:33] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I know the homesteads have lower limits and seem to get in trouble more</nowiki>

[12:33] pup Witherspoon<nowiki>: we see it on both full and homestead regions.. generally happens when someone new moves in and rezzes a bunch of stuff.. a reboot cures it because it releases the sim memory</nowiki>

[12:33] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: I have a homestead, Simon.</nowiki>

[12:33] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Martin, its fixed....</nowiki>

[12:33] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: New Changeset:</nowiki>

http://bitbucket.org/lindenlab/viewer-chui/changeset/fc0090ae8ee0

<nowiki>BUG-3605 / CHUIBUG-197 Don't create excessive amounts of string objects in LLNormalTextSegment::getNumChars.</nowiki>

<nowiki>Committed by: Nicky</nowiki>

[12:34] Martinrj Fayray<nowiki>: very good : ))</nowiki>

[12:34] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: And there was a particular weekend when, although the homestead was mostly empty, rezzing anything was impossible after rebaking the navmesh a few times.</nowiki>

[12:34] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: what is considere and excessive amount of string objects(i assume is talking about variables)?</nowiki>

[12:35] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yeah, I'm not too surprised by that ... the navmesh baking has been trouble for a long time</nowiki>

[12:35] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: considered an*</nowiki>

[12:35] Martinrj Fayray<nowiki>: no this was a bug where resizing a floater with text would cause clientside lag</nowiki>

[12:35] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: That bug Mona is talking about is nasty & very much not fixed. Still see a lot of it.</nowiki>

[12:35] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: There's a whole flock of these sim memory related bugs linked under BUG-772</nowiki>

[12:35] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: So, does this confirm that repeated navmesh rebaking leads to this problem, Simon?</nowiki>

[12:36] pup Witherspoon<nowiki>: is the issue with Restore in Place included with that bunch under Bug-772 (if you still have it open?)</nowiki>

[12:36] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Thats def one way to do it. I did it on my homestead by rebaking terrrain. Each rebake ups memory allocated by about 30Mb & it never releases</nowiki>

[12:36] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Pup: Not seeing it. But that's a different problem anyway, isn't it?</nowiki>

[12:36] Simon Linden<nowiki>: From what you're describing, Mona, yes. But I haven't looked at the code or tried it myself</nowiki>

[12:37] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Whirly is right. That's what I noticed too.</nowiki>

[12:37] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: When yoy rebake, mem allocated will go much higher, then it ettles, but at about 30Mb more each time</nowiki>

[12:37] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: *you</nowiki>

[12:37] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: *settles</nowiki>

[12:37] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Gah! >.<</nowiki>

[12:38] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Yup. The highest I saw (on my homestead) was almost 300MB.</nowiki>

[12:38] Orchidmist<nowiki>: Have another quick question if someone can help. WHen I log on I am using 240 MB ram, but now after 30 min online I'm using 780 mb. Is that normal or a bug?</nowiki>

[12:38] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Normal</nowiki>

[12:38] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: AND bug, likely</nowiki>

[12:38] Martinrj Fayray<nowiki>: kelly? ping :P</nowiki>

[12:38] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: lol Im lucky on my HS, it has that bug where it has a full regions mem allocated limit <3 Please don't fix that in a hurry :)</nowiki>

[12:38] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: sup martin?</nowiki>

[12:39] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: But it gies the other way too, some full regions have a HS mem allocated limit</nowiki>

[12:39] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: *gies</nowiki>

[12:39] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: lol can't type</nowiki>

[12:39] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: You're lucky....I've only been on 40 minutes and I'm at 1.9 gigs of ram and 1.7 of virtual ram. :P</nowiki>

[12:39] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: but that's firestorm for ya. :P</nowiki>

[12:39] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: I think you need a drink, Whirly. :P</nowiki>

[12:39] Orchidmist<nowiki>: oh okay ty</nowiki>

[12:39] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Whirly, it's that Welsh keyboard.</nowiki>

[12:39] Martinrj Fayray<nowiki>: kelly you suggested some time last year to raise the limit of script sizes (it's in panel_script_ed.xml) to 1 million, would that be ok if we do that as a contribution together with Oz?</nowiki>

[12:40] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki> passes some near-grog along to Whirly.</nowiki>

[12:40] Martinrj Fayray<nowiki>: "we" means the OS contributors</nowiki>

[12:40] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: yeah, I note that SL viewers tend to bloat memory usage very badly.</nowiki>

[12:40] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: kind of looks like somebody doesn't know how to use pointers:)</nowiki>

[12:40] Tankmaster Finesmith<nowiki>: im at 1.9GB as well currently</nowiki>

[12:41] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: 1.5 here</nowiki>

[12:41] Krisshall<nowiki>: 1.7 virtual here, 600 ordinary</nowiki>

[12:41] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: 932MB</nowiki>

[12:41] Orchidmist<nowiki>: thank you all</nowiki>

[12:41] Siwo<nowiki>: 3.4gigs :D</nowiki>

[12:42] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: 600MB with LOD factor at 0</nowiki>

[12:42] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Martin: if you first verify performance doesn't completely tank when editing large scripts (and fix it if it does) I'm cool with that.</nowiki>

[12:42] Siwo<nowiki>: and I even don't have memory leak yet</nowiki>

[12:42] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: and btw the viewer really doesn't like firefox. viewer starts to get very laggy if firefox is running:(</nowiki>

[12:43] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Most things get laggy with Firefox running</nowiki>

[12:43] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: that's before the longer firefox is open....the more ram it consumes</nowiki>

[12:43] Simon Linden<nowiki>: running to different viewer versions at the same time? What could possibly go wrong? :P</nowiki>

[12:43] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Usually when something with flash is present on a page, though</nowiki>

[12:43] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Disable hardware acceleration for flash. That does not play nice when on SL if you have web pages open with flash</nowiki>

[12:43] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: no flash</nowiki>

[12:43] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: if you leave it open overnight it'll eat up your ram typically</nowiki>

[12:44] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Flash is crap.</nowiki>

[12:44] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: FF is a fine example of OpenBloat software :P</nowiki>

[12:44] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yeah, I had to disable hradware accel too</nowiki>

[12:44] Tankmaster Finesmith<nowiki>: yeah, its flash that the viewer doesnt like so much, not FF itself</nowiki>

[12:44] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: and hardware accelaration is dissabled</nowiki>

[12:45] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: FF lately is not typically worse than other browsers: </nowiki>http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/chrome-27-firefox-21-opera-next<nowiki>,3534-9.html though that is from June and browsers update quite frequently.</nowiki>

[12:45] pup Witherspoon<nowiki>: total change of subject.. has there been any consideration given to increasing the number of estate managers allowed on a simulator from 10 to say 20? Is there a big issue that would cause? It would be a great help to larger estates if it's not a huge issue to make that happen.</nowiki>

[12:46] Martinrj Fayray<nowiki>: Kelly would you give your OK to raise the script size limit (viewerside) to 1 million characters? Jon or me could do that as a contribution with Oz Linden</nowiki>

[12:46] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: O.o</nowiki>

[12:46] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I must be high because I didn't think there was a limit simultaneous present EM's</nowiki>

[12:46] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: I replied to that martin</nowiki>

[12:46] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: asied from agent limits in general</nowiki>

[12:47] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Martin: if you first verify performance doesn't completely tank when editing large scripts (and fix it if it does) I'm cool with that.</nowiki>

[12:47] Martinrj Fayray<nowiki>: I didn't see that, sorry</nowiki>

[12:47] pup Witherspoon<nowiki>: assigned names as estate managers</nowiki>

[12:47] Martinrj Fayray<nowiki>: okay great. I'm working with large scripts all the time</nowiki>

[12:47] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: There is a limit to the number of people who can be assigned as EMs for an estate</nowiki>

[12:48] Martinrj Fayray<nowiki>: creators in SL don't like to have 200 scripts in their builds... so we have to keep the code in less, larger scripts</nowiki>

[12:48] pup Witherspoon<nowiki>: nodding. would increasing that be something easy to do or is that tied to other issues?</nowiki>

[12:48] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Thoughit is per sim, not per estate</nowiki>

[12:48] pup Witherspoon<nowiki>: right.. currently 10 maximum</nowiki>

[12:48] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Yep</nowiki>

[12:49] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: I can't think of any reason why not, but I thought SCR-4 was a relatively easy feature addition, too. :P</nowiki>

[12:49] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: pie</nowiki>

[12:49] Tankmaster Finesmith<nowiki>: cake</nowiki>

[12:49] pup Witherspoon<nowiki>: It would solve a lot of issues for us in providing coverage to residents</nowiki>

[12:49] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: bacon</nowiki>

[12:49] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: ..so take my perception with a microgram of NaCl</nowiki>

[12:50] Tankmaster Finesmith<nowiki>: you mean the viewer?</nowiki>

[12:50] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: sadlly the bigger your script gets the more likely is that will get runtime out of memory errors:(</nowiki>

[12:51] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: big scripts, wishlist item</nowiki>

[12:52] Krisshall<nowiki>: if you provide more space for larger scripts, won't what people do with that expand to fill it?</nowiki>

[12:52] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Until they run out of script memory :P</nowiki>

[12:52] pup Witherspoon<nowiki>: giggles. kind of like increasing the number of groups</nowiki>

[12:52] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Just because you can edit a bigger script doesn't mean you can compile said script</nowiki>

[12:53] Krisshall<nowiki>: would wonder on how to conserve or economize it too, or if tricks for that can be made easier</nowiki>

[12:53] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i like to have very big variable names. if source code can be 256k than maybe that becomes a reality:)</nowiki>

[12:54] Tankmaster Finesmith<nowiki>: just make it all AVX2 capable as well :P</nowiki>

[12:54] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: large global and local names isn't really efficient though, why they have commenting</nowiki>

[12:54] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: for (this_is_a_long_name_for_index=0; this_is_a_long_name_for_index < 10; ++this_is_a_long_name_for_index) blah();</nowiki>

[12:54] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Hmm doesn't FS already have that limit raised Tank?</nowiki>

[12:54] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: sounds like crazy talk to me. :P</nowiki>

[12:55] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Stupid question: When a scripted object rezzes in a new sim, it's just the compiled script that it has to fetch, right? the source text stays on some server somewhere. I hope.</nowiki>

[12:55] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: I use meaningful variable names. Sometimes it makes them long, but not always</nowiki>

[12:55] Tankmaster Finesmith<nowiki>: FS can compile with AVX, if thats what you mean, whirly</nowiki>

[12:55] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yes Qie</nowiki>

[12:55] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: cool. thanks Simon.</nowiki>

[12:55] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: I just make a variable list comment at the top of the file if I am unable to keep track of them.</nowiki>

[12:55] Simon Linden<nowiki>: the source isn't needed unless someone opens it in a editor</nowiki>

[12:55] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Yep, some of the HUD objects I have don't have source code anymore</nowiki>

[12:56] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: "Script not found in database" when I try to edit them.</nowiki>

[12:56] pup Witherspoon<nowiki>: I'd rather read variable names that mean something than hit a script with var1, var2, var3, etc</nowiki>

[12:56] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Talarus, have you looked at the same object on Aditi? You might get lucky</nowiki>

[12:56] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: (Oh, right Tal, I've seen that before.)</nowiki>

[12:56] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: well there was some trick about saving scripts without source code.</nowiki>

[12:56] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: If I ever meet Bitrot Linden, I am gonna shred him with my talons.</nowiki>

[12:56] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i didn't say meaningful. i said big. something like this: PchzxkBy6M80zx3uggYI8fkccVWwWQuoE78Jqto07u6JiY3LVHDm370Uj5RGYb34Juj1wlkp7tC3aVnCd7xoknR0SZ5VLYToMGWKG58bgzd1SpSChxqcLT3WU8iDFkAT</nowiki>

[12:57] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[12:57] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: yeah, I have, Jonathan</nowiki>

[12:57] pup Witherspoon<nowiki>: smh</nowiki>

[12:57] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: No joy.</nowiki>

[12:57] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Rex, you have a typo in the 87th letter</nowiki>

[12:57] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: is that a global/local name or just data?</nowiki>

[12:58] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: :)</nowiki>

[12:58] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: It's probably exactly the same variable as another with the same first 63 characters. :P</nowiki>

[12:58] Siwo<nowiki>: using such names for variables.... that is almost like obfuscation :D</nowiki>

[12:58] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: even that would be inefficient obfuscation</nowiki>

[12:59] rcdsQueChatLog<nowiki>: Davido Chrome, you can read the log here:</nowiki>

http://rcds.nfshost.com/ques_view_chatLog.php?queOwner=llsl:Rex<nowiki>+Cronon&queName=chatLog&pg=1</nowiki>

[12:59] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i use such var names for obfuscating lsl code</nowiki>

[12:59] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: ugh</nowiki>

[12:59] pup Witherspoon<nowiki>: any timeline on the 0,0,0 issue/bug with restore in place.. possibility that might get fixed anytime soon or shall we all just cut a parcel at the SW corner and leave it wide open for anyone to rez, not rent it, so that restore in place will work?</nowiki>

[12:59] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Why bother? :P</nowiki>

[13:00] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: restore in place was removed officially from what I was told a year ago</nowiki>

[13:00] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: That isn't likely to get fixed. It only affects TPVs</nowiki>

[13:00] Simon Linden<nowiki>: restore-in-place isn't a feature in the Linden viewer, I believe ... so I doubt it's going to get much attention</nowiki>

[13:00] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Nothing in LSL is complicated enough that a rudimentary search/replace function can't de-obfuscated it well enough</nowiki>

[13:00] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yeah, since compiles occur server side, you're not really capable of obfuscating the bytecode anymroe</nowiki>

[13:00] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: making it "easier" for who can read it:)</nowiki>

[13:00] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: not since liek what 08?</nowiki>

[13:00] Tankmaster Finesmith<nowiki>: the restore to last position will requier you to have rez rights at 0,0,0 to work. Theres not going to be any changes to that ever, it was changed to close a security exploit</nowiki>

[13:00] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Plus the reason it broke was for a security fix</nowiki>

[13:00] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Yeah</nowiki>

[13:01] Tankmaster Finesmith<nowiki>: simon - code was there for it, just no UI optin :P</nowiki>

[13:01] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I mean you can still clip the text but taht can be export</nowiki>

[13:01] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: *ed</nowiki>

[13:01] pup Witherspoon<nowiki>: so why not get it out of the other viewers, tho it's a very nice feature, saves us lots of time jockeying stuff for residents who remove the front of their houses trying to adjust their shoe</nowiki>

[13:01] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: It used to be in the LL viewer. It was added to help people move regions over to Zindrea I believe.</nowiki>

[13:01] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: lol. talaurs. u never looked at obfuscated code generated by my program:)</nowiki>

[13:02] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: I don't have to, Rex. :)</nowiki>

[13:02] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: good 4 u:)</nowiki>

[13:02] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Rex, unless you're not obfuscating the pre compiled code anyone can decode global/local names</nowiki>

[13:02] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: -not</nowiki>

[13:02] pup Witherspoon<nowiki>: it still works if you clear space at the SW corner and leave it open for create for anyone</nowiki>

[13:03] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Yeah it works as normal as long as you have rez rights at 0,0,0</nowiki>

[13:03] Krisshall<nowiki>: you could find out what the variables are by following the code anyhow</nowiki>

[13:03] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: anyone. lols</nowiki>

[13:03] pup Witherspoon<nowiki>: right.. so if that's what I need to do, make a parcel at the SW corner on 150 some sims .. I just need to know that</nowiki>

[13:03] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: We have been told that the Restore feature caused more support problems than it solved, at LL's end. People needing help with fishing their stuff from under the ground, etc. So it won't be reinstalled.</nowiki>

[13:03] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yeah, its as simple as c/r all existances of a name with w/e you want to call it</nowiki>

[13:03] ac14 Hutson<nowiki>: i that case i would jsut assume its broken</nowiki>

[13:04] Martinrj Fayray<nowiki>: yayyy email is working again on the grid</nowiki>

[13:04] pup Witherspoon<nowiki>: well then can we get it out of the alt viewers so folks don't assume it's still avalable?</nowiki>

[13:04] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yay</nowiki>

[13:04] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: Why?</nowiki>

[13:04] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: not that simple lucy:)</nowiki>

[13:04] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Does OS grid support it?</nowiki>

[13:04] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yeah, I remember that too, Lex. It was fine as long as you were really careful about where you tried to put stuff back</nowiki>

[13:04] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: people can assume the sky is green too, all they want. Doesn't make it true.</nowiki>

[13:04] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I'll let you believe, Rex, heh</nowiki>

[13:04] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Yeah, it's really that simple Rex :P</nowiki>

[13:04] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Teah. Uts a really useful feature as long as you are careful</nowiki>

[13:04] ac14 Hutson<nowiki>: lol you cant remove anything from the TPVS; they still have that annoying " i can see where your looking because we decided to label the look at targets" drama feature :P</nowiki>

[13:05] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: *Yeah, its....</nowiki>

[13:05] Tankmaster Finesmith<nowiki>: not all TPVs have that, some even disable lookats completly</nowiki>

[13:05] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Well, particles targeted at me "look at" my crotch, so everyone else might as well. :P</nowiki>

[13:05] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: You can disable your lookat target from moving though...if you don't mond the zombie stare</nowiki>

[13:05] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: *mind</nowiki>

[13:06] Siwo<nowiki>: you can turn it off in Kokua</nowiki>

[13:06] ac14 Hutson<nowiki>: you wouldnt NEED to disable the lookat target if they wernet labeled.</nowiki>

[13:06] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: anime head wearing people don't mind</nowiki>

[13:06] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[13:06] ac14 Hutson<nowiki>: the LL veiwer shows the targets but it does NOT have the names above it. only TPV's</nowiki>

 
[[Simulator_User_Group]]
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| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.11.12|Next 2013.11.12]]
|}

Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.11.12

2013-12-18T02:26:51Z

Andrew Linden: Created page with "Simulator_User_Group {| | Prev 2013.11.05 | Next 2013.11.19 |} == List of Spe…"

[[Simulator_User_Group]]
{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.11.05|Prev 2013.11.05]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.11.19|Next 2013.11.19]]
|}

== List of Speakers ==
{|
|Andrew Linden
|Baker Linden
|Davido Chrome
|-
|Duckie Dickins
|Firey Indigo
|Ima Mechanique
|-
|Jenna Felton
|Jonathan Yap
|Kennylex Luckless
|-
|Kitto Flora
|Lexbot Sinister
|Lucia Nightfire
|-
|MartinRJ Resident
|Mona Eberhardt
|Rex Cronon
|-
|Simon Linden
|Siwo Resident
|Susie Chaffe
|-
|TankMaster Finesmith
|Tori Handrick
|Whirly Fizzle
|-
|Yerra Tripsa
|Yuzuru Jewell
|}

== Transcript ==
[12:00] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Hello , hello</nowiki>

[12:00] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Thank you, Rex.</nowiki>

[12:00] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: u r welcome yuzuru:)</nowiki>

[12:00] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: hello :)</nowiki>

[12:01] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Obduction did take Salazar Jack?</nowiki>

[12:01] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: hello Andrew</nowiki>

[12:01] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: These days, having local bits and pieces of builds never rez is quite usual</nowiki>

[12:01] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Hi everyone ... we can get started with the release news, which is relatively simple this week</nowiki>

[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: There was no main channel update this morning because we had the same version on all channels</nowiki>

[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Tomorrow there are two versions going into the RC channels</nowiki>

[12:02] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Hello all.</nowiki>

[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The forum post is here: </nowiki>http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2013-11-11/td-p/2321845

[12:03] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Kitto, I'll ask you some questions about that problem later...</nowiki>

[12:03] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hi mona</nowiki>

[12:03] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Hi Rex.</nowiki>

[12:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: One is a maintenance release, the other is a back-end system update for experience tools</nowiki>

[12:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: ... which I don't have any product or new info on, I'm afraid</nowiki>

[12:04] Simon Linden<nowiki>: It's early to predict but hopefully next week we'll have one of those promoted to the main channel, and another maintenance update</nowiki>

[12:05] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That's it for my news ... Andrew or Kelly do you guys have anything?</nowiki>

[12:06] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I've been fixing a bug... but not one that is externally visible:</nowiki>

[12:06] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: in some cases our servers will upload an asset multiplie times before it successfully creates an inventory item (on take to inventory for example)</nowiki>

[12:06] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: which creates garbage assets in the asset system</nowiki>

[12:06] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: so I've been fixing that</nowiki>

[12:07] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: oh yeah, and there was another bug that I fixed...</nowiki>

[12:07] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Does it show externally as a delay, or failure to arrive?</nowiki>

[12:07] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Kitto, when the inv item creation fails yes there is a notification to the viewer (if the avatar is present in the region where it faile)</nowiki>

[12:08] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: and the notification would fire... about once every two seconds</nowiki>

[12:08] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: this should not happen except under very special (desperate) circumstances</nowiki>

[12:08] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: and hasn't been reported AFAIK</nowiki>

[12:08] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Mmm - only see one notification, sometimes</nowiki>

[12:08] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: however I saw it happen on the beta grid and looked into it</nowiki>

[12:08] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Hi Whirly.</nowiki>

[12:09] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Usually it like drag/drop item from inv to content of object and it either never shows, or is very slow to shoe</nowiki>

[12:09] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: this other bug I fixed relates to "ghost objects" : on the viewer but not on the server</nowiki>

[12:09] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: or you have to kep re-selecting the object to get content to update</nowiki>

[12:09] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I found a race condition that could produce such ghost objects (if you delete the objects too fast on a region crossing, for example)</nowiki>

[12:10] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: and I have a fix for it... somewhere. I don't think it is in an RC yet.</nowiki>

[12:10] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Ones puts that down to 'the Asset server has problems again'</nowiki>

[12:10] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Er gosts at the border - I see them</nowiki>

[12:10] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: and finally... Kitto about that "objects not showing up" bug you were talking about...</nowiki>

[12:10] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: now andrew u just have to fix "the bomb" and its clones;)</nowiki>

[12:10] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Andrew, do you know the issue of plane when it cross the sim?</nowiki>

[12:10] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: But its a standard ghost - not visible but its in physics - so you can collide with it</nowiki>

[12:10] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Hia Baker</nowiki>

[12:11] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Kitto, when you try to click on or select the object with the viewer... does it show up?</nowiki>

[12:11] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: 2 or 3 different problems then?</nowiki>

[12:11] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: there is a known viewer bug where the viewer actually knows the object is there (you can click on it) but it does not render</nowiki>

[12:11] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Andrew - no</nowiki>

[12:11] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: hrm...</nowiki>

[12:11] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Cant select it</nowiki>

[12:11] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: cant make it visible</nowiki>

[12:11] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: but its in Havok - you collide with it</nowiki>

[12:11] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: Was it an old asset? I thought old assets that haven't been accessed in a long time got shuffled into a closet in the basement at Linden Lab and when you try to rez it the first time, they send a mole after it, dust it off and finally let it rez which was the cause for old items to be delayed when rezzed.</nowiki>

[12:12] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ok still, this actually sounds like a known viewer bug</nowiki>

[12:12] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Oh that one</nowiki>

[12:12] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I think we fixed it in the "project interesting" viewer, although it was actually a bug in the release viewer</nowiki>

[12:12] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Yeah - thats the 'bits and pieces dont show up'</nowiki>

[12:12] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: See em lots on track sections</nowiki>

[12:12] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but we were fixing all "objects not showing up" bugs in the project interesting viewer</nowiki>

[12:13] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: I know the track is all there but bits are 'missing'</nowiki>

[12:13] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: you click edit where they should be and they appear</nowiki>

[12:13] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: btw Whirly, I think the project interesting viewer should have a project viewer available soon</nowiki>

[12:13] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: any day now</nowiki>

[12:14] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: OOOOh yay!</nowiki>

[12:14] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: right Kitto, there are two "objects not appearing" bugs in the release viewer, as I recall</nowiki>

[12:14] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: both fixed in project interesting</nowiki>

[12:14] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: Anything with " mesh sometimes apperaring, sometimes not?"</nowiki>

[12:15] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ok that is all my news. Table is open.</nowiki>

[12:15] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Lexbot, I can't remember if mesh was particularly affected by these bugs.</nowiki>

[12:15] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Mesh usually appears for me, it might need a while to load though.</nowiki>

[12:15] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Andrew, when do you think you will add the cap I need for storm-68?</nowiki>

[12:15] JIRA-helper/77e48a07-06f1-4ae4-9d33-6eab4d445e2d<nowiki>: </nowiki>http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-68

<nowiki>#12ORM] As a Builder, I want that ability to set default permissions on creation of objects, clothing, scripts, notecards, etc. - Second Life Bug Tracker</nowiki>

[12:16] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Isnt Monty working on making mesh more reliable to render?</nowiki>

[12:16] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Ah right Jonathan. That was something I wanted to do in my copious spare time (on the side)</nowiki>

[12:16] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: I know :)</nowiki>

[12:16] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: It shouldn't be too hard. I'll try to take an intial swing at it this week.</nowiki>

[12:16] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Thanks so much</nowiki>

[12:16] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: It's the last little bit before this change can go out</nowiki>

[12:16] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Ask me again next week.</nowiki>

[12:17] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: 'Bits not appearing' - I gaeve up caring about that problem - Others see stuff ok. Mostly. Maybe one day it will get fixed in Cool VL. I'll wait for that... maybe...</nowiki>

[12:17] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: can i ask a general question as a sim owner</nowiki>

[12:17] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: I have a question about Texture LOD.</nowiki>

[12:17] Simon Linden<nowiki>: go for it, Firey</nowiki>

[12:17] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Go ahead and ask Firey.</nowiki>

[12:18] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: thanks have a huge group over 23 thousand and 500 ban list .. i am going nuts can it be raised PLEASE</nowiki>

[12:18] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: lol, use an scripted db</nowiki>

[12:18] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and cycle your bans</nowiki>

[12:18] Baker Linden<nowiki>: 500 on what ban list, Firey?</nowiki>

[12:18] Tori Handrick<nowiki>: we do that</nowiki>

[12:18] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: people</nowiki>

[12:18] Baker Linden<nowiki>: mute list you mean?</nowiki>

[12:19] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Is that the estate ban list?</nowiki>

[12:19] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: its far to smal a number for the group yes</nowiki>

[12:19] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Most of our people lists like that have 500 limits</nowiki>

[12:19] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: we have to get rid of people causing trouble fast</nowiki>

[12:19] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: and we cant now</nowiki>

[12:19] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: without removing others</nowiki>

[12:20] Baker Linden<nowiki>: ohh, you mean can the ban list be raised, I got confused and thought you meant you couldn't see the list of group members</nowiki>

[12:20] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: lol no</nowiki>

[12:20] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: I have a question about worn mesh positioning, if there's time later.</nowiki>

[12:20] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Firey - what's a wild guess on how many people you would add per day or week or something? Whatever the size is, it will fill up ... but hopefully it can be made big enough to stay effective</nowiki>

[12:20] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: it could do with being in the thousands not hundreds</nowiki>

[12:20] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: can be anything from 20 to 50</nowiki>

[12:20] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Firey, in general, troublemakers use throwaway accounts.</nowiki>

[12:20] Tori Handrick<nowiki>: and also we have an appallng time with chat lag in group</nowiki>

[12:21] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: When I upload a low rez texture, 16*128 for example, it still gets scaled down in LOD change right away. Is there a good reason for this? It makes you want to make higher rez textures for one bit alpha things than would otherwise be needed.</nowiki>

[12:21] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: yes but would you like to go through all those people and check they are still active or not Andrew</nowiki>

[12:21] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Firey, which ban list specifically? The estate ban list? Parcel ban list? some other list?</nowiki>

[12:21] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: what if u could have a unlimited list of banned avatars? would u guys pay 4 that?</nowiki>

[12:21] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: land and estate</nowiki>

[12:22] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: no i would not pay I pay enough now</nowiki>

[12:22] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ok, so two lists: Land and Estate</nowiki>

[12:22] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: And, even if the size of the ban list was raised to 10 or 20 thousand, the ban list would still fill up, because troublemakers make alt after alt after alt.</nowiki>

[12:22] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: yes</nowiki>

[12:22] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Are avatars banned from the whole grid autoremoved from local ban lists?</nowiki>

[12:22] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: perhaps there should not be a list of banned people stiked to a region/estate, but every avatar should carry a list of regions they was banned. Than you can potentially put every SL resident in a ban list. But every resident would be banned at last on 500 regions at same time</nowiki>

[12:22] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: What is the performance impact on the server of having much larger ban lists?</nowiki>

[12:22] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: I dont know about you but i dont have time to do that</nowiki>

[12:22] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Perhaps LL should automatically prune lists by removing accounts that have been terminated.</nowiki>

[12:22] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I doubt it, AlveKatt</nowiki>

[12:22] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: The most infamous forum bullies actually *brag* about having armies of alts they use for harassing people.</nowiki>

[12:22] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Davido, probably not, but I'm not 100% sure on that</nowiki>

[12:22] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: now that is a sensible idea</nowiki>

[12:22] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: I have an idea for a sollution to the large ban lists, but it goes together with what we talked about with Baker, so it might be better on thursday</nowiki>

[12:22] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Simon, that would make sense.</nowiki>

[12:22] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Andrew, I second that.</nowiki>

[12:23] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: terminated lists would help</nowiki>

[12:23] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: @Andrew theres risk there</nowiki>

[12:23] Simon Linden<nowiki>: well, to loop around ... want to know why group chat is slow? it's a large list....</nowiki>

[12:23] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and that is accounts being unbanned later, no matter the offense</nowiki>

[12:23] Tori Handrick<nowiki>: here here simon</nowiki>

[12:23] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: such as sim crashers and copybotters</nowiki>

[12:23] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: """ Andrew Linden: Perhaps LL should automatically prune lists by removing accounts that have been terminated.""" - Duh? They don't already?</nowiki>

[12:23] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: yes Lucia, some terminated accounts come back. Is that what you're talking about?</nowiki>

[12:23] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: We know Simon people pester us asking if they are banned because they cant chat</nowiki>

[12:23] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I've seen it enough to keep peopel in a db and not worry abotu removing them later if they are not in search</nowiki>

[12:24] Tori Handrick<nowiki>: well we know that....sowhat do we do?</nowiki>

[12:24] Tori Handrick<nowiki>: we avtually lose members cos they cant chat</nowiki>

[12:24] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: I think LL could learn a thing or two from InnoGames w.r.t. account pruning.</nowiki>

[12:25] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: and then sort the candidate prunees by date of termination (or last login) and remove the oldest first</nowiki>

[12:25] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: its a big deal with most people and most groups</nowiki>

[12:25] Tori Handrick<nowiki>: we charge for people to join then they cant use group chat</nowiki>

[12:25] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: LL needs to think BIG :)</nowiki>

[12:25] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: each ban could be given a priority of 1-5, on severity and likelyness of the account returning. So 5 would be bans that stay forever, and 1 bans that can be removed on first cleanup. And as a land owner, you could sort the bans by priority, and clean the list of all 1'es, for an example.</nowiki>

[12:26] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I have 10000 active bans being cycled on demand (when agents enter a region) which is typically 20 - 30 bans a day. The ban times are 8640 minutes but I will later be goign to an offense/risk based time system.</nowiki>

[12:26] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: Lucy sounds great but i am not technical most of us are not</nowiki>

[12:26] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Here is an idea for a new feature: make some changes so you have to be X days old (specified by the group owner(s)) before you can join a group, that would keep throwaway accounts out to some degree</nowiki>

[12:26] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and this is an lsl db, heh, hard capped at 80000 capacity</nowiki>

[12:26] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: Just fill the regions with ban bots. :D</nowiki>

[12:26] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: there are commercial ban systems availabel on mp too</nowiki>

[12:26] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: I am wondering, when on the Linden viewer there's no point in closing group chats, because they keep popping up. Are there maybe a lot of people that are logged in to the chat needlessly?</nowiki>

[12:27] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: Thats not a bad idea a lot of trouble comes from those under a month old</nowiki>

[12:27] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: What do you call needless?</nowiki>

[12:27] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That might slow things down a bit, Jonathan, or just open up a side market in older throw-away accounts</nowiki>

[12:27] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: the point is its social they love to chat</nowiki>

[12:27] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: There is already such market</nowiki>

[12:27] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: GO BACK to charging $5 for a new Av. That will make LL some legit $ and discourage the griefers</nowiki>

[12:27] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: Most beggar bots are from 2008</nowiki>

[12:27] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Hacked old accounts cause the most problems these days >.<</nowiki>

[12:28] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: I truly think Free accounts are self defeating and most good games have a charge it gives people reason to stay</nowiki>

[12:28] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: they have money in it</nowiki>

[12:29] Simon Linden<nowiki>: so ... trying to think small (because that's the range of work that might get done) are there some tools or info from a ban list that would make it easier to manage it?</nowiki>

[12:29] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Right on Firey</nowiki>

[12:29] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Whirly, this brings me back to what I said earlier: LL needs to learn a few things about pruning inactive accounts. InnoGames (developers of Ikariam) has a nifty implementation for its games.</nowiki>

[12:29] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: I disagree Firey. When i first joined SL, there was a trial period and then you had to pay for an account. I left.</nowiki>

[12:29] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: well a bigger ban list would help</nowiki>

[12:29] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Simon: date banned and date last logged in</nowiki>

[12:29] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: and not having to check every person to see if they are active or not</nowiki>

[12:29] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: that would help</nowiki>

[12:29] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: just replace group chat with IRC. That seems to scale well. :)</nowiki>

[12:29] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I wonder how ugly of a privacy issue that would be</nowiki>

[12:30] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: I am wondering, when on the Linden viewer there's no point in closing group chats, because they keep popping up. Are there maybe a lot of people that are logged in to the chat needlessly?</nowiki>

[12:30] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Duckie, they tried that but it didn't work</nowiki>

[12:30] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: it worked for eve online?</nowiki>

[12:30] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: people come here to socalise one reason for joining a large group is being able to chat</nowiki>

[12:30] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Duckie - IRC is a goldmine for email address harvesters - I refused to use it for years now.</nowiki>

[12:30] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: to say you cant is daft</nowiki>

[12:31] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: IRC has nothing to do with email</nowiki>

[12:31] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Kitto, you *don't* have to declare your email in IRC.</nowiki>

[12:31] Tori Handrick<nowiki>: it defeats the object</nowiki>

[12:31] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Unless you are clever IRC exposes your IP</nowiki>

[12:32] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: So does Voice. So?</nowiki>

[12:32] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: and media streams.</nowiki>

[12:32] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: yes, any server to which you're sending lots of data will have to know your IP address</nowiki>

[12:32] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: And media streams have been exploited by a well-known scamware/spyware "alt detection system" developer.</nowiki>

[12:32] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: For years now.</nowiki>

[12:32] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: if you're only sending a little bit of data you can route it through a proxy</nowiki>

[12:33] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: as well as illegal tpv's, heh</nowiki>

[12:33] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: and every website ever. IP can't be considered a huge secret. In SL you casn opt out of showing your IP, but if it ment better chat groups... *shrugs*</nowiki>

[12:33] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: I've been using IRC since 89, a private linden IRC cluster would be safe. You could disable most of the commands that would cause privacy issues on your own servers.</nowiki>

[12:34] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: But at what cost, Duckie?</nowiki>

[12:34] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: Well i think a lot of people come here to socialise so anything that makes that easier to do is going to keep people here .. and thats the point</nowiki>

[12:34] Simon Linden<nowiki>: just fyi, practically speaking we're not going to be re-writing the chat system any time soon</nowiki>

[12:35] Susie Chaffe<nowiki>: Been away awhile, could I ask for a quick update on what the current major region crossing issues are?</nowiki>

[12:35] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: given up?</nowiki>

[12:35] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Reposting: I am wondering, when on the Linden viewer there's no point in closing group chats, because they keep popping up. Are there maybe a lot of people that are logged in to the chat needlessly?</nowiki>

[12:35] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: no cost really....people wouldn't realize they were on IRC if it replaced how group chat operated.</nowiki>

[12:35] Tori Handrick<nowiki>: at the end of the day ive spent 3yrs building up 23000 member group, thats not been easy , i dont expect to be answering daily complaints, from members not being able to use the facilities they have paid for</nowiki>

[12:35] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: smile ... i guessed somehow .. but it will have to be done sooner or later</nowiki>

[12:35] Yerra Tripsa<nowiki>: hello all</nowiki>

[12:35] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: better sooner</nowiki>

[12:35] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Would IRC scale any better though?</nowiki>

[12:35] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Susie - I've been fixing a couple of bugs with vehicle region crossings where you'd get denied when it should have been allowed</nowiki>

[12:35] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hello</nowiki>

[12:35] Tori Handrick<nowiki>: much sooner</nowiki>

[12:35] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: Yeah...not fixing a social aspect of your social gaming platform is like letting a wound fester if you ask me.</nowiki>

[12:35] Yerra Tripsa<nowiki>: hi Rex</nowiki>

[12:35] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Susie: Did you want to know the issues? Or any fixes?</nowiki>

[12:36] Simon Linden<nowiki>: one is in the next update (tomorrow's RC) and the other _might_ go out next week</nowiki>

[12:36] Susie Chaffe<nowiki>: actually both.....</nowiki>

[12:36] MartinRJ Resident<nowiki>: from what I've been told, IRC doesn't scale well either for very large groups</nowiki>

[12:37] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: LL tyes a lot fo things together, chat as a part of it, IRC doesnt have the capibilities to to non chat things really</nowiki>

[12:37] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: And net splits have been legendary on many IRC networks.</nowiki>

[12:38] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: The main issue appears to be that ... When your client net traffic level is high when you cross a border (because theres lost of new scenery arriving) then some critical handshake with the new region fails, and you are left drifing on to 'infinity' with no connection to any sim.</nowiki>

[12:38] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Looks like 'reliable UDP' is no longer reliable</nowiki>

[12:38] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: udp was never reliable :P</nowiki>

[12:38] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: When I use Linden viewer group chats always pop up when you log on. And if you closed them they would pop up soon again a few minutes later. So it seems that if you are a member of a group, you are automatically always logged in to the chat.</nowiki>

[12:38] MartinRJ Resident<nowiki>: never</nowiki>

[12:39] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: yes thats a problem for many</nowiki>

[12:39] Simon Linden<nowiki>: the crossings usually don't recover from that kind of failure at all</nowiki>

[12:39] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: if they can opt out</nowiki>

[12:39] Tori Handrick<nowiki>: yes we get that complaint oo</nowiki>

[12:39] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: it would help</nowiki>

[12:39] Susie Chaffe<nowiki>: did SVC-22 ever get addressed</nowiki>

[12:39] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Phoenix - SL uses 'reliable UDP' - read the comms protocol</nowiki>

[12:39] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: not everyone wants to listen to all the chat</nowiki>

[12:40] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: if you had to opt in ..... that would cut the problem considerably</nowiki>

[12:40] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: I still get the bucking like a crazy horse on my bike. I wonder if it's related to that I use collision detection to make it fall faster when not touching ground.</nowiki>

[12:40] Simon Linden<nowiki>: it's UDP with some re-tries ... but with 20/20 hindsight it's probably worse than a dedicated TCP/IP channel</nowiki>

[12:40] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Simnon - Indeed :)</nowiki>

[12:40] Tori Handrick<nowiki>: well group chat tends to be topical rather than typical....will never appeal to all</nowiki>

[12:40] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: If you close a group chat session it shouldn't re-open that session unless you reopen it yourself. Sometimes it does though but it doesn't appear to happen that often.</nowiki>

[12:40] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: yeah tcp = more reliable (but more overhead)</nowiki>

[12:40] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: would make a massive difference if people could turn it off</nowiki>

[12:41] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yes Whirly -- when you close it, you're really wanting it to say quiet until something interesting comes along :P</nowiki>

[12:41] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[12:41] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: That could be a viewer only change, but better if there was a server change too.</nowiki>

[12:41] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: how would u know if something interesting comes up if u r not listening?</nowiki>

[12:42] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: those who want to chat would log in</nowiki>

[12:42] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: those who dont wont</nowiki>

[12:42] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Can you mute group chats on TPVs but still get notices if you want.</nowiki>

[12:42] Simon Linden<nowiki>: IRC does that by tagging your name or key words</nowiki>

[12:42] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: It would be a tickbox in the group floater panel</nowiki>

[12:42] Simon Linden<nowiki>: or a lot of IRC clients, I mean</nowiki>

[12:42] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: However, that group mite setting has a habbot of not sticking</nowiki>

[12:42] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: *habbit</nowiki>

[12:43] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: but it stops group chat and notices and is a pain to reset</nowiki>

[12:43] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: I have firestorm set to block all group chats unless I have opened them myself. The question is, am I still technically logged in to those chats serverside?</nowiki>

[12:43] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: needs to be simple tick box in communications</nowiki>

[12:43] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: yes</nowiki>

[12:43] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: it jusdt doesnt display the message to the UI</nowiki>

[12:43] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: yes, all those chat message go to your viewer, which then drops them</nowiki>

[12:43] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: I think that feature is busted in the beta viewer....I got one group chat muted and it still pops open.</nowiki>

[12:43] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: i have to go to Poole to send messages to my own group laugh</nowiki>

[12:43] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: firestorm beta</nowiki>

[12:43] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: If youve mited a groups chat, if you open that groups chat, you unmute it btw.</nowiki>

[12:44] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Same as IMing a muted avatar</nowiki>

[12:44] Tori Handrick<nowiki>: yeh we tp out to do work</nowiki>

[12:44] Tori Handrick<nowiki>: rediculous</nowiki>

[12:44] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Then you should really be able to opt out of chats serverside, that might solve the chat lag problem!</nowiki>

[12:44] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: It would reduce server load</nowiki>

[12:44] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: thats got to be good</nowiki>

[12:45] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: I think the real issue is that there wasn't much planning for groups with 20K members. :P</nowiki>

[12:46] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: heh of course not, when groups were created SL didn't have 20K members</nowiki>

[12:46] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: you know....i pruned about 8000 people out of a group once who hadn't logged in the last year...you probably should look into that.</nowiki>

[12:46] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: now they do and more</nowiki>

[12:46] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: Duckie i have better things to do frankly and i have tried over a thousand gone</nowiki>

[12:47] Tori Handrick<nowiki>: but the point is surely that now there are!!!</nowiki>

[12:47] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: but i do have a rl and sl</nowiki>

[12:47] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: theres an autooption, at least for everyone role "Remove agents that haven't logged on in # years" heh</nowiki>

[12:47] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: *sigh* there was a time when we struggled to get 3K concurrent users. And it crashed the grid when it happened ;-)</nowiki>

[12:47] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: two years is a good option for me</nowiki>

[12:48] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Simon, what regions on Aditi have the new grey goo fence changes and sat on temp prim autoreturn time changes?</nowiki>

[12:49] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I want to test stuffs, lol</nowiki>

[12:49] Simon Linden<nowiki>: so if you had a magic button to press that said "remove anyone from this group (or ban list) that hasn't logged in for X days" that would solve everything? :P</nowiki>

[12:49] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: no but it would help to reduce them</nowiki>

[12:49] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: and make that a year simone</nowiki>

[12:49] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: Simon</nowiki>

[12:49] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I was thinking about something like that too. Some sort of auto-culling of groups, but with a manual trigger.</nowiki>

[12:49] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: OR 2</nowiki>

[12:49] Siwo Resident<nowiki>: if I may... I've a LSL question... why all functions to apply textures (llSetTexture, PRIM_TEXTURE...) require only full-perm textures? I make textures for (no-modify) planes and it is pretty unpleasant when I must give my textures away with full rights so they can work with applier script the planes use. I've seen my textures being resold so many times it even isn't funny anymore.</nowiki>

[12:49] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: same with bann lists</nowiki>

[12:50] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: auto or manual</nowiki>

[12:50] Simon Linden<nowiki>: a few choices would probably be needed ... we'll never have agreement on the right length</nowiki>

[12:50] Baker Linden<nowiki>: I toyed around with that thought already too -- a button to help auto-prune group lists</nowiki>

[12:50] Baker Linden<nowiki>: considering the biggest SL group has over 100k members</nowiki>

[12:50] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: well pruning 8000 people did help the group chat issue for the group I did that with</nowiki>

[12:50] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: well we will be 25 thousand in the new year</nowiki>

[12:50] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Samm goups can get bad chatlag too though</nowiki>

[12:50] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: *small groups</nowiki>

[12:50] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: and its getting to be a bigger and bigger problem</nowiki>

[12:51] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Have a box which the user can fill in for the "X number of days" value</nowiki>

[12:51] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yeah, certain small groups seem to have chat lag versus bigger ones, its all in the group key from what I was told, lol</nowiki>

[12:51] Baker Linden<nowiki>: I imagine the small groups experience lag are a direct result of the fact that we have huge groups also chatting on the same server</nowiki>

[12:51] Tori Handrick<nowiki>: i may be wrong but there seems to be alot of computor planners here today...whereas firey and i are not techies and actually live in SL...its a frustrating place to be at times</nowiki>

[12:51] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: that makes sense :)</nowiki>

[12:51] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Yeah. Conference IMs are bad too!</nowiki>

[12:51] Baker Linden<nowiki>: internet traffic is internet traffic</nowiki>

[12:52] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: Laugh were so not Techies we have trouble understanding sculpts</nowiki>

[12:52] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: but were the average user</nowiki>

[12:52] Baker Linden<nowiki>: I have trouble understanding sculpts too :)</nowiki>

[12:52] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: But still, Lindens, aren't there a lot of people that are needlessly logged in to the chats?</nowiki>

[12:52] Tori Handrick<nowiki>: lolol...i think we can forget conference ims...we dont have a chance lolol</nowiki>

[12:52] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: lol glad were not alone</nowiki>

[12:52] Simon Linden<nowiki>: there's a mix Firey but the Lindens here are server developers, so we stick mostly to technical solutions to problems</nowiki>

[12:52] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: I think a few people here would like to see a new UG for Estate Managers</nowiki>

[12:52] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Davido, I'd imagine there are.</nowiki>

[12:52] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: I guess Simon, Tori and i look for social solutions</nowiki>

[12:53] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i have no troubles with sculpts. lol</nowiki>

[12:53] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: big head :)</nowiki>

[12:53] Tori Handrick<nowiki>: whats a sculpt?</nowiki>

[12:53] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: [12:49] Seewo (siwo): if I may... I've a LSL question... why all functions to apply textures (llSetTexture, PRIM_TEXTURE...) require only full-perm textures? I make textures for (no-modify) planes and it is pretty unpleasant when I must give my textures away with full rights so they can work with applier script the planes use. I've seen my textures being resold so many times it even isn't funny anymore.</nowiki>

[12:53] Tori Handrick<nowiki>: cough</nowiki>

[12:53] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: I bet you could drastically reduce the size of the group chat lists if you could opt out of the chat serverside for your session.</nowiki>

[12:53] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: can it be done your the techies</nowiki>

[12:54] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Siwo, is there such a limit to llSetTexture()? I thought it would just work for any valid texture asset_id... even if you don't actually own said texture in your inventory.</nowiki>

[12:54] Firey Indigo<nowiki>: the opt out button would be great</nowiki>

[12:54] MartinRJ Resident<nowiki>: there isn't if you use a UUID</nowiki>

[12:54] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: no Andrew, it has to be full perms now. Has been that way for some time</nowiki>

[12:54] Siwo Resident<nowiki>: it works only with texture uid or full-perm texture if is it in objects content</nowiki>

[12:54] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Basically, if you close a group chat you get logged out until you open it again.</nowiki>

[12:55] Meeter/77e48a07-06f1-4ae4-9d33-6eab4d445e2d<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is almost over</nowiki>

[12:55] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: You don't need to give out your textures though, just the UUIDs</nowiki>

[12:55] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: I heard the aircraft issue of BUG-4389. Please check </nowiki>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJ085VoJf0U<nowiki> It occurs at Blake Sea - Cannonade and Honah Lee Surf.</nowiki>

[12:56] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: It occurs only mono script.</nowiki>

[12:56] Siwo Resident<nowiki>: giving away uids is basically the same as textures</nowiki>

[12:56] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: are the group chat messages sent to the special server? I think so. Perhaps it is better to outsource that in this case, group chat is sent then to the sim you are and the sim delivers the chat to the sims of logged into group members</nowiki>

[12:56] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: hrm... I don't see the permission check in the code yet</nowiki>

[12:57] Siwo Resident<nowiki>: hm</nowiki>

[12:57] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Honestly, it would make more sense if you had a setting to autologin in the viewer on the chats you want, and not log in at all on others unless you open them yourself.</nowiki>

[12:57] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: </nowiki>http://isslgroupchatstillbroken.com/

[12:57] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: Yeah....some groups I only want notices.</nowiki>

[12:57] Baker Linden<nowiki>: hahaha</nowiki>

[12:57] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: \o/</nowiki>

[12:57] Object/f5c7ade0-ae12-4cce-95b1-bed4b0fbb603<nowiki>: Hello, Avatar!</nowiki>

[12:57] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: /me laugs</nowiki>

[12:58] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Because as it is now, I am lagging down 38 chats that I am not using.</nowiki>

[12:59] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: But if there are no chats in those 38 groups there is no lag</nowiki>

[12:59] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: IRC has always been Opt In, why the chat rooms never reach the size of several thousands, either</nowiki>

[12:59] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: The chat servers don't even have links set up</nowiki>

[12:59] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/svc-2820

[12:59] MartinRJ Resident<nowiki>: I strongly agree with Davido</nowiki>

[12:59] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Well, yeah. But some of the chats that I am apparantly logged into but not have open is FS support and Builders brewery, and those are always busy.</nowiki>

[13:00] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: Maybe it would be a better indicator to show instead somehow that a chat group is being active, and then give the option to join it?</nowiki>

[13:00] MartinRJ Resident<nowiki>: you should have a checkbox to auto-opt-in to group chats</nowiki>

[13:00] Meeter/77e48a07-06f1-4ae4-9d33-6eab4d445e2d<nowiki>: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group</nowiki>

[13:00] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: For those who cannot see, svc-2820 is the jira for muting group IMs</nowiki>

[13:01] MartinRJ Resident<nowiki>: like "Receive group notices" "Show in my profile" - an additional checkbox "participate in chat automatically"</nowiki>

[13:01] Siwo Resident<nowiki>: nvm then...</nowiki>

[13:01] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: SVC is public</nowiki>

[13:01] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Yeah, I just don't see that permissions thing Siwo.</nowiki>

[13:01] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: So instead of "automatically jshow chat" have "automatically show which chats are active"</nowiki>

[13:01] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Whirly, I had to log into jira to see that entry</nowiki>

[13:01] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: ahhh. Im always logged in ROFL</nowiki>

[13:02] MartinRJ Resident<nowiki>: I don't think you can see anything without being logged in</nowiki>

[13:02] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Yeah, you cant</nowiki>

[13:02] MartinRJ Resident<nowiki>: maybe to keep robots out</nowiki>

[13:03] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Thank you everybody</nowiki>

[13:03] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: have to run. Bye all</nowiki>

[13:03] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Thank you!</nowiki>

[13:03] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Thanks, Lindens.</nowiki>

[13:03] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Ty Lindens</nowiki>

[13:03] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc all those leaving</nowiki>

[13:03] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: tc simon</nowiki>

[13:03] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i guess group meeting over?</nowiki>

[13:03] Tori Handrick<nowiki>: interesting thank you</nowiki>

[13:03] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: tc baker</nowiki>

[13:03] Baker Linden<nowiki>: tc everyone</nowiki>

[13:03] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: yes rex</nowiki>

 
[[Simulator_User_Group]]
{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.11.05|Prev 2013.11.05]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.11.19|Next 2013.11.19]]
|}

Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.11.19

2013-12-18T02:18:49Z

Andrew Linden: Created page with "Simulator_User_Group {| | Prev 2013.11.12 | Next 2013.11.26 |} == List of Spe…"

[[Simulator_User_Group]]
{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.11.12|Prev 2013.11.12]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.11.26|Next 2013.11.26]]
|}

== List of Speakers ==
{|
|Adamburp Adamczyk
|Andrew Linden
|Baker Linden
|-
|catalina Gearbox
|Ima Mechanique
|Jenna Felton
|-
|Jonathan Yap
|Kennylex Luckless
|Lucia Nightfire
|-
|MartinRJ Fayray
|Mona Eberhardt
|Nalates Urriah
|-
|Rex Cronon
|Simon Linden
|Siwo
|-
|Skills Hak
|TankMaster Finesmith
|Yuzuru Jewell
|-
|}

== Transcript ==
[12:10] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I don't see anything, Jonathan ... but you can ask :)</nowiki>

[12:10] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: that function could have bad consequences if it has bugs in it:(</nowiki>

[12:10] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: hello Andrew!</nowiki>

[12:10] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: hello</nowiki>

[12:10] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hi andrew</nowiki>

[12:10] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Rawr! >:o</nowiki>

[12:10] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Hello, Andrew.</nowiki>

[12:10] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Hey Andrew, I was just asking for a status update on the default permissions cap work you took on</nowiki>

[12:11] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Jonathan, I did poke around with that a bit last week.</nowiki>

[12:11] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Hi Andrew</nowiki>

[12:11] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I didn't complete it, but found an existing cap that already handles some "Agent Preferences" stuff</nowiki>

[12:11] Siwo<nowiki>: aren't these permissions already in debug settings? Like NextOwnerCopy and stuff...</nowiki>

[12:11] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: however I don't believe the viewer is actually using that cap</nowiki>

[12:12] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: I just need to know how to proceed with the viewer changes</nowiki>

[12:12] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I believe we did some coalescing of caps on the server-side when we were working on the pathfinding stuff</nowiki>

[12:13] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: and some of that coalescing work is unfinished (or perhaps just unused on the viewer-side)</nowiki>

[12:13] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Siwo: those debug settings might become obsolete, I forget what I did in that area</nowiki>

[12:13] catalina Gearbox<nowiki>: may I share my idea</nowiki>

[12:13] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I mention it because I think I would like to add the default object creation permissions to that existing cap... even if it isn't being used, and then expose it as whatever cap you want to call it from... if that makes sense.</nowiki>

[12:14] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: sure, I just need to know the exact details of how we are going to proceed</nowiki>

[12:14] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: I'll await your email</nowiki>

[12:14] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Thanks!</nowiki>

[12:14] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: That is... I'm going to try to add the new settings in the right place, in case anyone ever wants to use the right cap for all preferences, but also expose them to a custom cap.</nowiki>

[12:14] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Yup. The short answer is: I started working on it but am not done.</nowiki>

[12:15] Simon Linden<nowiki>: go ahead, catalina</nowiki>

[12:15] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Oz was hoping to toss a bunch of viewer changes to QA next week, as they don't have thanksgiving</nowiki>

[12:15] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Ah... I don't think I'll be done before then, but if I am I'll alert you and Oz.</nowiki>

[12:15] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: kk</nowiki>

[12:15] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: What is your idea catalina?</nowiki>

[12:16] catalina Gearbox<nowiki>: well a dew weeks ago I was looking at the avatar window and I was thinking what a wasted opportunity, why not let people put there own outfits in something like that (one that doesn't take off all the clothes and one where you can put folders in folder and people will upload thee own pictures to put in that window, now I knwo your going to say there is the outfits folder but you can't realy see what those outfits are and some people have hundreds if not thousands of outfits so you get more revenue for tweaking something you already have implemented and maybe a little rlv coding on the backend;3</nowiki>

[12:16] catalina Gearbox<nowiki>: few weeks*</nowiki>

[12:17] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: wrong place for that suggesyion. You'd be better of presenting that to the Open Source User group</nowiki>

[12:17] catalina Gearbox<nowiki>: oh ok</nowiki>

[12:17] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That does sound like mostly a viewer thing ... which exact window were you thinking about?</nowiki>

[12:17] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: So the idea is an outfit preview when browsing outfits in the inventory, via the avatar customization window, right?</nowiki>

[12:17] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: this is about the server, OSUG handles Viewer stuff from the public</nowiki>

[12:17] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Or just add it as a feature request in the JIRA...</nowiki>

[12:18] catalina Gearbox<nowiki>: the avatar window</nowiki>

[12:18] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: As for RLV coding, this is an idea for TPVs, because the official viewer doesn't have this API built-in.</nowiki>

[12:18] Simon Linden<nowiki>: you mean the choose-an-av window, right?</nowiki>

[12:18] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: When you save an outfit you could have an option to take a snapshot and put it in with the saved outfit</nowiki>

[12:19] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Is there any group for land/management and usability questions and suggestions or is that only done via tickets??</nowiki>

[12:19] catalina Gearbox<nowiki>: yes simon</nowiki>

[12:19] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: We might see some RLV like stuff added into the viewer after Experience Tools are out.</nowiki>

[12:19] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: What about outfits you've purchased but have not worn yet Jonathan?</nowiki>

[12:19] Simon Linden<nowiki>: All the user groups are listed here : </nowiki>http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:User_Groups

[12:19] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Then there would not yet be a snapshot, hmmmzzz</nowiki>

[12:20] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: That'd be interesting to see, Nal. Any guesses as to what they might add?</nowiki>

[12:20] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: We wouldn't have an outfit until we had made one. otherwise it is just clothes in invenotry.</nowiki>

[12:21] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Kennylex, this is probably the right place to talk about server-side features for land/region/estates.</nowiki>

[12:21] Simon Linden<nowiki>: It certainly would be nice to have a picture associated with an outfit and then be able to flip through them to pick</nowiki>

[12:21] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Mona, Oz has talked about it. There are something he thinks would be good. I've forgetten which features he liked.</nowiki>

[12:21] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki> nods</nowiki>

[12:21] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: There is some problems with inactive lifetime members and land, there would be great if could get hold of inactive land like it is in Luskwood and Minna</nowiki>

[12:22] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: For peole with a lot of outfits having an image stored with them would be helpful</nowiki>

[12:23] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: it would also be helpfull if we had an image associated with linked objects in our inventory:)</nowiki>

[12:23] Siwo<nowiki>: I've got many outfits too... I've learned to use wise names for them :)</nowiki>

[12:23] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Ohai Baker.</nowiki>

[12:23] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Hia Baker</nowiki>

[12:23] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: yes, and the creator of the outfit you buy on marketlace could put the outfit image into the folder and call it somehow appropiate. The rest could the viewer do displaying that poster before you put the outfit on</nowiki>

[12:23] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I see Kennelex. Unfortunately that is not within our domain here. Land and estate policy are not things that we work on.</nowiki>

[12:23] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i have quite a few "objects" that are no longer just objects and i have to rez each one to see what it is</nowiki>

[12:23] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Hello, Baker.</nowiki>

[12:24] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Hey everyone!</nowiki>

[12:24] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki> tries to keep her outfit number in check. If it's never used, it's bye-bye.</nowiki>

[12:24] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hi baker</nowiki>

[12:24] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: hi</nowiki>

[12:24] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: hello Baker and Tankmaster</nowiki>

[12:24] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: Simon, there is a ticket option for that what kenny asks</nowiki>

[12:24] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: I've used it many a time, will im kenny if he likes</nowiki>

[12:25] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Please do, Adam .... I think you guys know more about fixing those cases than I do</nowiki>

[12:25] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: many a time bugging them about land :)</nowiki>

[12:25] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: It would be nice to have a fast render image in outfits. The images that come with clothes often take a long time to render. Some times it is faster to put the item on than wait for the picture of it. A composite pic of the outfit as made mix and match would be great.</nowiki>

[12:26] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: It just had been great if there was some land rules for inactive users like land where owner not has log in within 3 month get auto return to 1 min automatically to stop on going griefs.</nowiki>

[12:26] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: In Minna griefer objects can stay several month or more</nowiki>

[12:27] Simon Linden<nowiki>: are they on public land, Kenny?</nowiki>

[12:27] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-4153

[12:27] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: No, private land owned by users that never has log in under several years.</nowiki>

[12:28] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Life time users that no longer use SL.</nowiki>

[12:29] Simon Linden<nowiki>: right ... I don't know the details on land policy, but there's some effort to clean up land that's not being paid for</nowiki>

[12:29] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Ah I see. Hrm... anti-grief is something that we work on, so maybe we could make a change there.</nowiki>

[12:29] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: with the change in autoreturn time inheriting, the only problem left is 0 return time parcels</nowiki>

[12:29] Simon Linden<nowiki>: If they're paying for it ... it's theirs to do as they see fit, under the usual TOS limits</nowiki>

[12:30] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: Simon, I will speak up about the land issue. as logn as the ticket is filed corerctly, Guy, or Michael, or Dee will reply pretty quickly</nowiki>

[12:30] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: about land permissions, or land queries</nowiki>

[12:30] Simon Linden<nowiki>: but it sounds like a policy or enforcement issue ... perhaps there is some tech change that could help out</nowiki>

[12:30] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is half over</nowiki>

[12:30] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: btw if there is time can we talk about the differences between the "interesting" viewer and regular viewer regarding cache?</nowiki>

[12:31] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Rex, I can answer most questions about the "interesting" viewer cache.</nowiki>

[12:31] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: ok. what does the interesting viewer save to cache?</nowiki>

[12:32] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: considering you did most of the changes, i hoe so :p</nowiki>

[12:32] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i mean what does differently than the current viewer</nowiki>

[12:32] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: But the problem is that grief that stuck in those areas affect a sim. One solution is that users do fill the sim with unscripted objects</nowiki>

[12:33] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: The main difference is that the cache files that the interesting viewer makes for each region will tend to be larger</nowiki>

[12:33] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: I'd rather have more support-staff cleaning up spamming objects that were reported through ARs and the support-homepage, than a change in policy</nowiki>

[12:33] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: I think Andrew is talking about the Object cache, not a texture cache</nowiki>

[12:33] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Yes, I'm talking about the files in the objectcache directory, not the texturecache.</nowiki>

[12:34] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: I reported a griefer-cube in my land on mainland through supporttickets and ARs, and the cubes were still there *months* after</nowiki>

[12:34] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: so now we different types of cache?</nowiki>

[12:34] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: do like i do</nowiki>

[12:34] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: There have always been different cache types</nowiki>

[12:34] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: when you AR something/someone, email rod linden with the AR number</nowiki>

[12:34] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: there always has been, rex</nowiki>

[12:34] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i mean new ones</nowiki>

[12:34] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Remember a while ago there was a bug in the name of the object cache, so it was never being used?</nowiki>

[12:34] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: On windows there is a directory somewhere around C://User/$YOURNAME/AppData/Local/SecondLife/objectcache</nowiki>

[12:35] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: ty Adamburp</nowiki>

[12:35] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: inside of that dir are files with names like objects_XXX_YYY.slc</nowiki>

[12:35] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: those contain info about the geometry and location of the "cacheable" objects in the region</nowiki>

[12:36] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: if you examine those files after visiting a region with an old viewer you'll tend to see smaller file sizes</nowiki>

[12:36] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: I see problems with the sculpt-cache in Interesting RC, Andrew.</nowiki>

[12:36] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: if we all do that, Rod would soon ge the message (/me hold banners up WE WANT YOSHI)</nowiki>

[12:36] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: Sculpties very close to my avatar and camera tend to take a very long time to rez</nowiki>

[12:36] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: sometimes they never rez</nowiki>

[12:36] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: what are the XXX_YYY representing? Coordinates?</nowiki>

[12:36] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: (I talk about non-worn objects)</nowiki>

[12:37] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: sculpts should have never happened :p</nowiki>

[12:37] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: slow to load sculpties may veryt well be a bug in the interesting viewer</nowiki>

[12:37] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: however sculpty mesh data is communicated via textures</nowiki>

[12:37] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki> nods</nowiki>

[12:37] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: so it would be a problem in the texture download or texturecache system</nowiki>

[12:38] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: dunno which</nowiki>

[12:38] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: ok. where is that folder in winxp?</nowiki>

[12:38] Skills Hak<nowiki>: sup</nowiki>

[12:38] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: MartinRJ, the XXX_YYY pair indicate the "grid location" of the region</nowiki>

[12:38] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: they are interger values that indicate how many regions East and North of some 0,0 point in the world</nowiki>

[12:39] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: LL should make a Sculpt to Mesh converter so folk can save their sculpt textures and convert them to mesh</nowiki>

[12:39] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but there is no region at 0,0... for reference I think DaBoom is at 1000,1000</nowiki>

[12:39] Skills Hak<nowiki>: yep</nowiki>

[12:39] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Is DaBoom region #1 ?</nowiki>

[12:39] Jenna Felton<nowiki> nods to Andrew</nowiki>

[12:40] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: u can already convert meshes to .obj and from that u should be able to convert to mesh</nowiki>

[12:40] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: for my information it was the first sim</nowiki>

[12:40] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: convert sculpties*</nowiki>

[12:40] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Yes, Da Boom was one of the first regions.</nowiki>

[12:40] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Natoma has sculpture pointing out center of old SL.</nowiki>

[12:40] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: and "Da Boom" sounds like a explosion, and our World started once with a big bang. so i am sure DaBoom is the firt sim</nowiki>

[12:41] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: first*</nowiki>

[12:41] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: DeBoom is a region I think</nowiki>

[12:41] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: "Da Boom" is a mispelling of an alley in San Francisco called "De Boom"</nowiki>

[12:41] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: ah</nowiki>

[12:41] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: sim != region</nowiki>

[12:42] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: as I recall</nowiki>

[12:42] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: May be correct</nowiki>

[12:42] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: an other idea. also a funny one</nowiki>

[12:43] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: BTW, the interesting viewer communicates that it can handle large cache files by setting a bit in the flags field of the RegionHandshakeReply message.</nowiki>

[12:43] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: The bit basically means "Yes, please send me all cacheable data for the region."</nowiki>

[12:44] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: techwolf will like that :p</nowiki>

[12:44] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: However it also implies that the viewer is smart enough to know how to cull its own objects from the cache file</nowiki>

[12:44] Skills Hak<nowiki>: prokofy claims that it is able to copy scripted objects</nowiki>

[12:44] Skills Hak<nowiki>: made me giggle</nowiki>

[12:44] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Does the server send data for objects outside draw distance?</nowiki>

[12:44] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: and does not rely in the serer to send a KillObject message for cacheable stuff that goes out of view.</nowiki>

[12:45] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: it can copy scripted objects?</nowiki>

[12:45] Skills Hak<nowiki>: it caches them, not the scripts though obviously</nowiki>

[12:45] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i think prokofy is trying to understand how it works</nowiki>

[12:45] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: The interesting viewer does not cache scripts.</nowiki>

[12:45] .:EF:. Lickity Split Tongue<nowiki>: Hello, Avatar!</nowiki>

[12:46] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: However, it does cache scripted object geometry data in the cache...</nowiki>

[12:46] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: Really Rex, that'd be a first, Prok usually skips understanding and moves straight to rant</nowiki>

[12:46] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: it used to be that we considered most scripted objects ad non-cacheable</nowiki>

[12:46] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: er... as non-cacheable</nowiki>

[12:46] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: I always use a very small cache size (64MB) - and have the cache folder on an extra SSD drive, because my viewer always got very very slow at some point, when my viewer cache grew too big. With the new Interesting RC viewer will it be save to have a bigger cache size, Andrew?</nowiki>

[12:46] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: Or even better to have a large cache?</nowiki>

[12:46] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: so the server would not send most scripted objects in cacheable form</nowiki>

[12:46] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: however, that changed several months ago</nowiki>

[12:47] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: and the server now sends any static object that hasn't changed position or appearance in the last two minutes as cacheable</nowiki>

[12:47] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: even to regular viewers</nowiki>

[12:48] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: MartinRJ... what operating system are you using?</nowiki>

[12:48] Skills Hak<nowiki>: i remember there has been a bug in the viewer that caused it to never actually *use* the object cache</nowiki>

[12:48] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: Windows 8.1 64bit</nowiki>

[12:48] Skills Hak<nowiki>: funny</nowiki>

[12:48] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: MartinRJ, I don't know why your viewer would slow down like that.</nowiki>

[12:49] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: The "cache size" setting in the viewer preferences covers not only objectcache (I believe) but also texturecache</nowiki>

[12:49] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: I think it excludes inventory cache. Because the folder is always bigger than what I've set as limit (64MB)</nowiki>

[12:50] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Over a year ago the cache changed to an indexed cache. It is no longer so dependent on OS file access to figure out file ages. I see very little performance loss from large cache.</nowiki>

[12:50] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i don't seem to have folder in the cache only for objects. in the cache i have only three folders http, https and prepared. is interesting viewer using different folders?</nowiki>

[12:50] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: you're looking in the wrong directory, Rex</nowiki>

[12:50] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: that's the browser cache</nowiki>

[12:50] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: no the interesting viewer uses the same folders. yeah I was going to say... sounds like a browser cache</nowiki>

[12:51] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: the object and texture cache has the folders "objectcache" and "texturecache"</nowiki>

[12:51] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: sound cache ignores preferences, not sure what else</nowiki>

[12:51] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: and a lot of .dsf and other files</nowiki>

[12:51] Skills Hak<nowiki>: inv cache is stored independently too</nowiki>

[12:51] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i can't find the object cache folder:(</nowiki>

[12:51] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: MartinRJ, if your performance really does degrade with large cache then... I wonder if moving to a faster hard drive would help you.</nowiki>

[12:51] Skills Hak<nowiki>: it's a file</nowiki>

[12:51] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: look for the folder path in preferences</nowiki>

[12:52] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: oh. its a file? not a folder</nowiki>

[12:52] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: I already have a fast ssd dedicated only for cache</nowiki>

[12:52] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: its in the normal cache folder</nowiki>

[12:52] Skills Hak<nowiki>: i'm using an 8gig ramdisk for cache so it doesn't stress my ssd as much</nowiki>

[12:52] Siwo<nowiki>: I wonder... will this ever become real? </nowiki>http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LSL3

[12:53] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: where is the cache folder?</nowiki>

[12:53] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: MartinRJ, what viewer metric suffers for large cache in your experience? Scene load? viewer FPS? something else?</nowiki>

[12:53] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: IM, Rex</nowiki>

[12:53] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: viewer fps</nowiki>

[12:53] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: You can find the cache folder by looking at Preferences --> Advanced Tab</nowiki>

[12:54] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: /in huis</nowiki>

[12:54] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: *✰* UNDERPANTS! *✰*</nowiki>

[12:54] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Huh MartinRJ, that sounds odd, but if it is real then we should be able to duplicate it in the lab.</nowiki>

[12:54] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: Siwo, very unlikely. Hopefully the move to C# would happen, but chances of that are pretty minimal currently</nowiki>

[12:54] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: or pref - network and cache, depending on your viewer</nowiki>

[12:54] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Can I place chash location at RAM DISK?</nowiki>

[12:55] Siwo<nowiki>: :/</nowiki>

[12:55] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: but viewer fps was also depending on scene load for me, always</nowiki>

[12:55] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: so it could be scene load-related lag</nowiki>

[12:55] Skills Hak<nowiki>: i miss babbage</nowiki>

[12:55] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is almost over</nowiki>

[12:55] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: me too skillz</nowiki>

[12:55] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: you can place the cache folder to any exsisting folder you want</nowiki>

[12:55] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: (btw. that's much better with the interesting RC - scene load does not affect my viewer fps at all anymore)</nowiki>

[12:55] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Yuzuru - you should be able to point it to any disk device</nowiki>

[12:56] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'm not sure what you mean MartinRJ. You're saying that during scene load your FPS is faster in the "interesting" viewer?</nowiki>

[12:56] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: yes</nowiki>

[12:56] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: When using a ram disk or any transient storage, you need to save the cache when powering down. Reload it on power up. Otherwise you have to waith for all the stuff to download each login.</nowiki>

[12:56] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: but it gets slower after teleporting, up to a point where I need to relog.</nowiki>

[12:56] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Thank you, Simon. I will try it.</nowiki>

[12:57] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: found it:)</nowiki>

[12:57] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Ok, sounds like the interesting viewer will need some more work.</nowiki>

[12:58] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: haha. i can't believe i was looking in the wrong place:)</nowiki>

[12:58] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Simon are you going to be looking into deterrents for taht bomb problem soon. We've had it used every day for the week, 3 times today alone after 3 restarts in WT.</nowiki>

[12:59] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: *last</nowiki>

[12:59] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: all by differnt agents too, heh</nowiki>

[12:59] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: WT exists to be griffed</nowiki>

[12:59] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I've been looking at it, Lucy. It's not one thing, unfortunately, but a collection of attacks</nowiki>

[13:00] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: lucy there is something else working there. people keep sim full using objects with high LI and low link nr, in order to keep sim from crashing:(</nowiki>

[13:00] Meeter<nowiki>: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group</nowiki>

[13:00] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: thats soemthing else Rex, lol</nowiki>

[13:01] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: that won't stop the bomb problem</nowiki>

[13:01] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tankmaster. imo u r wrong about that:)</nowiki>

[13:01] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: it doesn't matter if there are any available prims or not</nowiki>

[13:02] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: well. when is not one is the other, and sometimes there r both going on:(</nowiki>

[13:02] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: the filling is to block normal laggers and spam</nowiki>

[13:03] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: take care and have fun, I has to run.</nowiki>

[13:03] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc</nowiki>

[13:03] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Take care, Kenny.</nowiki>

[13:03] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Cheers.</nowiki>

[13:03] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: too sad that it renders the sim useless:(</nowiki>

[13:04] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: Take care everyone</nowiki>

[13:04] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: the bomb ruins the sim for hours</nowiki>

[13:04] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I have to go as well ... thanks for coming and the good chat this week</nowiki>

[13:04] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: gotta run too, cloning a new VR repo finally finished. Nearly 90 minutes, it's getting rediculous ;-)</nowiki>

[13:04] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: only takes one second to activate it</nowiki>

[13:04] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: bye Simon!</nowiki>

[13:04] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc martin</nowiki>

[13:04] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: tc everyone, have a good week</nowiki>

[13:04] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc simon</nowiki>

[13:04] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc tankmaster</nowiki>

[13:04] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Thank you, Simon.</nowiki>

[13:04] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc all those leaving</nowiki>

[13:04] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Have a good week, Simon.</nowiki>

[13:04] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Thx Lindens</nowiki>

[13:04] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Thank you, Rex.</nowiki>

[13:04] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Thanks, Lindens.</nowiki>

[13:05] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Thank you, Andrew.</nowiki>

[13:05] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Thank you everyone</nowiki>

[13:05] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: have a good week everybody and thank You for the meeting Lindens and all</nowiki>

[13:05] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Baker, ara you OK?</nowiki>

[13:05] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: u r welcome yuzuru:)</nowiki>

 
[[Simulator_User_Group]]
{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.11.12|Prev 2013.11.12]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.11.26|Next 2013.11.26]]
|}

Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.12.03

2013-12-18T02:15:54Z

Andrew Linden: Created page with "Simulator_User_Group {| | Prev 2013.11.26 | Next 2013.12.10 |} == List of Spe…"

[[Simulator_User_Group]]
{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.11.26|Prev 2013.11.26]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.12.10|Next 2013.12.10]]
|}

== List of Speakers ==
{|
|Adamburp Adamczyk
|Andrew Linden
|Duckie Dickins
|-
|Inara Pey
|Jenna Felton
|Jonathan Yap
|-
|Kennylex Luckless
|Kitto Flora
|Lucia Nightfire
|-
|Martinrj Fayray
|Mona Eberhardt
|Rex Cronon
|-
|Simon Linden
|Siwo
|Whirly Fizzle
|-
|Yuzuru Jewell
|}

== Transcript ==
[12:01] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Andrew, do you know how many attachment point a avatar has ;-)</nowiki>

[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Hi everyone</nowiki>

[12:02] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: 40</nowiki>

[12:02] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: 42 slots, but can't use them all at once, right?</nowiki>

[12:02] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Something like 40... I'm not sure what the exact number.</nowiki>

[12:02] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: But some of those numbers include the HUD attachment points.</nowiki>

[12:02] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Lucy - could be - though the returns are all the latest model of Railcar</nowiki>

[12:02] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: I hope everyone had a nice thanksgiving.</nowiki>

[12:02] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: 40 points, 42 attachments allowed</nowiki>

[12:03] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: just saying that entire region was sold</nowiki>

[12:03] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: didn't even think rails ran through it, just to the region to teh south of it, Olive</nowiki>

[12:03] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: ys, to</nowiki>

[12:03] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Isnt that attachment limit enforced serverside too?</nowiki>

[12:03] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: °• Batman! °•</nowiki>

[12:03] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: We need to give Andrew some bling to thest them</nowiki>

[12:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Did you folks talk about releases yet?</nowiki>

[12:03] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: no</nowiki>

[12:04] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'm not going to be able to stick around for the whole meeting. I probably have to step out at 12:30 or so.</nowiki>

[12:04] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hello everybody</nowiki>

[12:04] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: No Simon, we haven't really started yet.</nowiki>

[12:04] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Hi Rex. Hi Baker.</nowiki>

[12:04] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Lucy - line does not go Thr Indigo - curves dont even point at Indigo.</nowiki>

[12:04] Simon Linden<nowiki>: ok, I can cover that ... we updated the main channel today with a maintenance release</nowiki>

[12:04] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Details are at </nowiki>http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2013-12-02/td-p/2357395

[12:04] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Hello, Rex.</nowiki>

[12:04] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Tomorrow we will have another maintenance release on all 3 RC channels</nowiki>

[12:04] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: hello all i missed to greet and Lindens :)</nowiki>

[12:05] rcdsQueChatLog<nowiki>: Rex Cronon, you can read the log here:</nowiki>

http://rcds.nfshost.com/ques_view_chatLog.php?queOwner=llsl:Rex<nowiki>+Cronon&queName=chatLog&pg=1</nowiki>

[12:05] Simon Linden<nowiki>: It's not a big update and fixes a crash plus a minor fix to llGetAgentInfo()</nowiki>

[12:05] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hi mona</nowiki>

[12:05] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hi yuzuru</nowiki>

[12:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: We may have another update before the holidays but will be locking things down in a couple of weekes</nowiki>

[12:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That's it for my news</nowiki>

[12:06] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: That is, there is a big No Change Window for SL updates that spans Christmas and the New Year.</nowiki>

[12:06] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Wonder if it will fix the griefer crashes in Wenge - thats back at several per day</nowiki>

[12:07] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Simon, remember when I asked about LSL functionality to control materials? I was pointed to a JIRA on this matter. It's MATBUG-359.</nowiki>

[12:07] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: Has there been any asset issues lately? I rezzed an object recently and a sculpt that was part of the linkset turned itself into a torus</nowiki>

[12:07] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: So, there is actually a request for this.</nowiki>

[12:08] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: I thought a sculpt started off as a torus</nowiki>

[12:08] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: is my computer, or all SL servers are down? including sl wiki and grid status and sl website?</nowiki>

[12:08] Martinrj Fayray<nowiki>: gridstatus works for me</nowiki>

[12:08] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: a sculpt started alwas as some ball of wood</nowiki>

[12:08] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: No problems here.</nowiki>

[12:08] Martinrj Fayray<nowiki>: but web profiles didn't work the past 4 days</nowiki>

[12:08] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: ok, than i have something here locally</nowiki>

[12:08] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Thanks Mona ... I'll see if we can get that in the queue for consideration</nowiki>

[12:09] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: I know all content creators will appreciate a speedy addition of this feature.</nowiki>

[12:09] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I don't think there is a known problem with the asset system today. At least, the servers aren't falling over or anything.</nowiki>

[12:10] Martinrj Fayray<nowiki>: I don't think a user group exists for issues with the website? Could you maybe poke someone internally though for the profiles? They haven't been working for 3-4 days.</nowiki>

[12:10] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Andrew, Oz has some regions on Aditi for testing; maybe you can apply your server changes for storm-68 to Blizzard and Flurry</nowiki>

[12:10] JIRA-helper<nowiki>: </nowiki>http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-68

<nowiki>[#STORM-68] As a Builder, I want that ability to set default permissions on creation of objects, clothing, scripts, notecards, etc. - Second Life Bug Tracker</nowiki>

[12:10] Martinrj Fayray<nowiki>: that would be cool</nowiki>

[12:11] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Hrm... Jonathan that may be possible.</nowiki>

[12:11] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Duckie, did you happen to be on Firestorm and were you building at the time using copy/paste object parameters? Theres a really bizarre bug on FS that can cause you to see all sculpts as torus till you relog.</nowiki>

[12:11] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: There is a new return bug, in Zoe a grief are stuck and 75 extra prims has been in a percel 6h now, Ritch (252,239,26)</nowiki>

[12:12] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'll have to negotiate with our #deploy team to get some servers for testing that feature. I've done that in the past.</nowiki>

[12:12] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: (^^^ regarding STORM-68)</nowiki>

[12:12] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: kk, I was thinking it might be easier to merge your changes into what is already there</nowiki>

[12:12] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: no Jonathan, that wouldn't be easy I think.</nowiki>

[12:12] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: No. I will check the item again after the meeting and see if it might be related though.</nowiki>

[12:12] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Jonathan name one region that is part of Oz's regions on aditi.</nowiki>

[12:13] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Blizzard</nowiki>

[12:13] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: So I can look it up and see what it is running.</nowiki>

[12:13] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: I think he has a block of 4</nowiki>

[12:14] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Jonathan, I don't think Oz is in the office today. I don't see him hanging out in IRC.</nowiki>

[12:15] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Oz's HD is failing, computer woes</nowiki>

[12:15] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Also you can try Sleet</nowiki>

[12:15] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I wouldn't want to replace his regions without him around, but I might be able to get a host or two for my own test channel.</nowiki>

[12:15] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'll ask the #deploy team later today and send you email with an update.</nowiki>

[12:15] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Thanks so much</nowiki>

[12:17] Andrew Linden<nowiki> reads back...</nowiki>

[12:18] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Kennylex says there is a return bug. 75 extra prims in a parcel in Ritch.</nowiki>

[12:18] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: btw. what is the deal with avatars named "(???)</nowiki>

[12:18] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: (???)"</nowiki>

[12:18] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Rex, that is a display name that has not loaded yet</nowiki>

[12:18] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: dataserver or its people doign a certain exploit and leaving ghost behind</nowiki>

[12:18] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: "(???)(???)"</nowiki>

[12:19] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Yes, the percel is full still 75 griefer prims got stuck there</nowiki>

[12:19] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: the parcel is over-full? or is just full?</nowiki>

[12:19] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: over full</nowiki>

[12:19] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Or you're on a viewer that doesn't hide the asset avatar & someones uploading something</nowiki>

[12:19] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i heard that that those r avatars that have been crased with "special" viewers</nowiki>

[12:19] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: +75 prims a long time now, oldie without auto return again.</nowiki>

[12:20] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: rex those can be generated at will</nowiki>

[12:20] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: hrm... what parcel is that Kennylex? Do you have a location or name?</nowiki>

[12:20] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: theres a few people that liek leaving multiples ghosts of them self behind in regions</nowiki>

[12:20] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Ritch (252,239,26)</nowiki>

[12:20] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: it can screw with agent counts and blockade regions too iirc</nowiki>

[12:20] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: interesting</nowiki>

[12:20] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ok I'll try to examine it later today.</nowiki>

[12:20] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: But not parcel name, I can send scout to get a name</nowiki>

[12:21] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: location is enough</nowiki>

[12:22] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Rex and Whirly, are you saying that there are some hacked viewers that can logout and leave a ghost avatar in the region that never goes away?</nowiki>

[12:22] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: er... Rex and Lucia, I mean.</nowiki>

[12:23] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I know three people that know how to do it at will, I've seen them do it</nowiki>

[12:23] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: but I was not allowed the info how</nowiki>

[12:23] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i see that i have seen at least 2 avatars at swt with the name "(???)(???)"</nowiki>

[12:23] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: I don't know. I just know the asset avatar displays as (???)(???) in radar but it should be hidden on V3 anyway & its hidden by default on FS.</nowiki>

[12:23] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Some viewers don't hide displaying it though</nowiki>

[12:24] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: lsl doesn't detect them</nowiki>

[12:24] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: If the names are "(???)" then the name lookup service is failing somehow.</nowiki>

[12:24] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: its (???)(???), not ???</nowiki>

[12:24] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Whirly can yousee the legacy name?</nowiki>

[12:24] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: you can't get reid of those ghost by any means other than reset afaik</nowiki>

[12:24] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: No, it doesn't have a name</nowiki>

[12:24] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: is (???)(???)</nowiki>

[12:24] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: at least I could send them home last time I tried</nowiki>

[12:24] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: *couldn't</nowiki>

[12:25] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: If you want to see them on FS set FSShowDummyAVsinRadar to TRUE</nowiki>

[12:25] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i think only a sim crash can get rid of them</nowiki>

[12:25] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: doesn't teh asset av appear at 0,0,0 or 10,10,10?</nowiki>

[12:25] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Ya</nowiki>

[12:25] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: 0,0,0</nowiki>

[12:25] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: these can be created at teh user's pos</nowiki>

[12:25] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: the ones we're talkign about</nowiki>

[12:26] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: I don't know anything about the griff ones</nowiki>

[12:26] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: what lucy says</nowiki>

[12:26] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I just don't know how its done, heh</nowiki>

[12:26] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: could the location of the asset avatar be changed to have a large Z value? At least then they would not show up as often for people nearby</nowiki>

[12:26] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: fake packets r sent to sim. i think</nowiki>

[12:27] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I'm sure its some kind of process interruption/modification, heh</nowiki>

[12:27] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: What is the phenomena? This is an avatar that is rendered but doesn't actually exist on the server? or... a real avatar whose presence on the server is stuck?</nowiki>

[12:27] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: The IM test avatar also is called (???)(???). Develop -> XUI -> Send Test Ims</nowiki>

[12:28] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i thought that ll didn't allow "special" viewers:)</nowiki>

[12:28] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: they show up on radar and afaik, llGetAgentSize() and llGetObjectDetails(), but can't be collided with or sent home/ejected</nowiki>

[12:28] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: There are 2 things being talked about: the asset avatar created at 0,0,0 when uploading something</nowiki>

[12:28] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: and the ones in other places with ??? names</nowiki>

[12:28] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: look like alpha mask wearing ruth haired av's</nowiki>

[12:28] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Hmm is it mayabe avatars connected in with a voice hack?</nowiki>

[12:30] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I don't have many ideas on what is going on based on the description. I'll probably have to witness it and check the server logs to get more clues.</nowiki>

[12:30] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Andrew, are you familiar with the asset avatar?</nowiki>

[12:30] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: No.</nowiki>

[12:30] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Someone please explain</nowiki>

[12:31] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: What is the "asset avatar"?</nowiki>

[12:31] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: this picture might give u an idea andrew: </nowiki>http://www.flickr.com/photos/_skills/8417365919/in/set-72157625593707479

[12:31] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: :)</nowiki>

[12:31] Siwo<nowiki>: wow :o</nowiki>

[12:32] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Its the "avatar" that allows you to preview things before you upload. All uploads cause an asset avatar to appear on the region apart from bulk upload</nowiki>

[12:32] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: It is located at 0,0,0</nowiki>

[12:32] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Details here </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-28841

[12:33] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: So, the "asset avatar" is not a real avatar, but is rendered by the viewer. (?)</nowiki>

[12:33] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Viewer 3 had a big where it wasn't hiding the presence of the asset avatar for a while & it caused mych fun with everyone wondering what it was</nowiki>

[12:33] Martinrj Fayray<nowiki>: it is real</nowiki>

[12:33] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: *bug</nowiki>

[12:33] Martinrj Fayray<nowiki>: it is real, but hidden by the viewer</nowiki>

[12:34] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Ya you can see it, its a cloud & has a name tag, if your viewer doesn't hide it</nowiki>

[12:34] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: When I say "real" I mean that the avatar has a data representation on the server.</nowiki>

[12:34] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Andrew probably wrote the code for that asset avatar a decade ago :P</nowiki>

[12:35] Siwo<nowiki>: I remember seeing this like... half a year ago... funny thing was, those "avatars" could be kicked/sent home but they would return :D ...the only way to get rid of them was restart sim</nowiki>

[12:35] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: It sounds like it isn't actually a real avatar, but is a rendering glitch of the viewer? If you logout and back in it is gone?</nowiki>

[12:35] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Does everyone see it? Or is is only visible to one person?</nowiki>

[12:36] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: oh...</nowiki>

[12:36] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: It appears whenever you do an upload, then poofs when the upload is complete</nowiki>

[12:36] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: everybody sees it</nowiki>

[12:36] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: even people that just tp in</nowiki>

[12:36] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: But I think you're talking about the griffy ones</nowiki>

[12:36] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: strange, I wonder how the asset avatar works...</nowiki>

[12:36] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I wonder if it is a "Viewer Effect"</nowiki>

[12:36] Simon Linden<nowiki>: It's all viewer-side, if I remember right. I fixed one of those viewer glitches earlier this year</nowiki>

[12:37] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: But for it to show on the mini-map the server has to be sending some Agent data about it</nowiki>

[12:37] Inara Pey<nowiki>: Is the "griefing" avatar an exploit of the asset avatar, or unrelated, or unknown?</nowiki>

[12:37] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: which are triggered by a viewer but are visible to other viewers when the server relays the message</nowiki>

[12:37] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: if u collide with that avatar than a lsl script detects a collision but its empty</nowiki>

[12:38] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: really?</nowiki>

[12:38] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Maybe it is time for a better way to preview an upload</nowiki>

[12:38] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I feel like you guys are pulling my leg.</nowiki>

[12:38] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i am not jocking about this andrew</nowiki>

[12:38] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: heh</nowiki>

[12:38] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Andrew, we could not all be that clever at once</nowiki>

[12:39] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: So I could make this avatar visible to myself by uploading something?</nowiki>

[12:39] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Follow the server upload code, there has to be something going on in there</nowiki>

[12:39] Simon Linden<nowiki>: now I remember ... you used to be able to block the asset AV, and that would kill your uploads :)</nowiki>

[12:39] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: it would take too much effort and coordination to do such an elaborate lie:)</nowiki>

[12:39] Martinrj Fayray<nowiki>: there was some discussion about it: </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-28841

[12:39] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: yes and look at 0,0,0 for it</nowiki>

[12:39] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Yes you can</nowiki>

[12:39] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: If you tweak the viewer to show it</nowiki>

[12:40] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Ok, I'll try it later. Uploading a texture works? or need some other asset?</nowiki>

[12:40] Martinrj Fayray<nowiki>: texture is fine</nowiki>

[12:40] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Anything, texture works as long as you don't ise bilk upload</nowiki>

[12:40] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: *bulk</nowiki>

[12:40] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: how do I need to tweak the viewer to show it?</nowiki>

[12:41] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: I think it was Simon fixed it from showing on V3... see </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-28841?focusedCommentId=322910<nowiki>&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel#comment-322910</nowiki>

[12:41] Martinrj Fayray<nowiki>: the easiest method would surely be to use a viewer without the fix for VWR-28841</nowiki>

[12:41] Simon Linden<nowiki>: There's a "mIsDummy" flag on the avatar object that is true for this special case</nowiki>

[12:42] Martinrj Fayray<nowiki>: Second Life 3.3.1 (254524)</nowiki>

[12:42] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'm using a really old Linux viewer now.</nowiki>

[12:43] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Andrew, did you write the upload code in 2003 or so?</nowiki>

[12:43] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Oh well, here. This build still displayed the asset avatar </nowiki>http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_Release/3.3.1

[12:43] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: well, maybe nto that old. 3.6.4... a test version of project interesting I guess.</nowiki>

[12:43] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Just change channel to get past the updater</nowiki>

[12:43] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: :D</nowiki>

[12:44] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: No, I didn't write the upload code. Some of that was Phoenix.</nowiki>

[12:44] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I've got to depart a bit early today.</nowiki>

[12:44] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: i.e. now</nowiki>

[12:44] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Thank you</nowiki>

[12:44] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc andrew</nowiki>

[12:44] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Carry on without me.</nowiki>

[12:44] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Thank you, Andrew.</nowiki>

[12:45] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: I just tried an upload and did not see anything at 0,0.0</nowiki>

[12:46] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Try on </nowiki>http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_Release/3.3.1

[12:46] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: my viewer is older than that, so it should show</nowiki>

[12:46] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: V3 hid it, then it displayed, then it was fixed again</nowiki>

[12:46] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: or maybe it is blocked</nowiki>

[12:47] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Is there anyone fixing WEB bugs these days, or is that team gone?</nowiki>

[12:47] Simon Linden<nowiki>: can someone repeat what the current problem with the asset AV is?</nowiki>

[12:48] Simon Linden<nowiki>: There are some over-worked people on that, Jonathan</nowiki>

[12:49] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: I don't know of any current problem with the asset avatar</nowiki>

[12:49] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: still waiting on someone to update teh map api cap key on teh website, lol</nowiki>

[12:49] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: been waiting for like 2 years now, lol</nowiki>

[12:52] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: also, I'm requireed by teh state to mention that the bomb is still a problem</nowiki>

[12:52] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: along with its dirty knock offs</nowiki>

[12:53] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: there is a solution to that lucy. if sim crashes than bomb stops:)</nowiki>

[12:53] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yeah, there are a lot of different attacks inside that thing</nowiki>

[12:53] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yeah, but there are so many now that emulate the effects that return and continue the behavior</nowiki>

[12:54] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: what people are doing now are either repeatedly rezzing high prim coutn coalesced objects off-world or on a no rez parcel</nowiki>

[12:54] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: has the same effect, but not as long, depends on teh object count</nowiki>

[12:54] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: I still think if you did L$ bounties for these exploits, there would be less in the wild and more turned in for the prize. :)</nowiki>

[12:54] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: can be sustained easily up to an hour though</nowiki>

[12:55] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: if the lindens don't/can't fix the bomb that very likely means they see sim crashing as the "fix" for the bomb;)</nowiki>

[12:55] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: which is surprising that even works</nowiki>

[12:55] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: its like asset handling is occurring before parcel checks or rez pos checks</nowiki>

[12:56] Simon Linden<nowiki>: A lot of The Bomb's real issue is once again we need a magical setting like "Only rez benign objects" or "Only run safe scripts"</nowiki>

[12:56] Siwo<nowiki>: I'm not sure if is this the right place to ask this... is there something to report stuck AnnMarie's vehicles? I was told they are all gone already, but.. guess what? There is one near my home :D Both, AnnMarie and the actual parcel owner didn't respond when I tried contact them. ...not that it was doing some harm, but a bus stuck in water way is Interesting :D</nowiki>

[12:56] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: seewo - contact ldpw</nowiki>

[12:57] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i think u only need to deny any rezzing on no -rez parcels</nowiki>

[12:57] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: i did</nowiki>

[12:57] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: micheal will help on that</nowiki>

[12:57] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: there are still those taht get stuck on 0 return parcels</nowiki>

[12:57] Siwo<nowiki>: okay :)</nowiki>

[12:57] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: if it;s linden owned ladn</nowiki>

[12:57] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: They do still pay bounties for some SECs Duckie</nowiki>

[12:57] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: 10k</nowiki>

[12:57] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: the ones i spoke about, the ladn ahd no auto return set</nowiki>

[12:57] Siwo<nowiki>: ehm... it isn't linden land :/</nowiki>

[12:57] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: ahm, oaky</nowiki>

[12:58] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I never saw money for my crash SEC's, lol</nowiki>

[12:58] Siwo<nowiki>: it has no auto return and no object entry... yet it still made it in the parcel and now... heh</nowiki>

[12:59] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: a sitter can defeat no entry</nowiki>

[12:59] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: They only pay when its fixed lol</nowiki>

[12:59] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: They sent you a nice rez day cake for your crash SECs, Lucy</nowiki>

[12:59] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: haha whirly</nowiki>

[13:00] Simon Linden<nowiki>: lol - on that note, thanks everyone for coming this week</nowiki>

[13:00] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: take care</nowiki>

[13:00] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: YEEHAW!!!!</nowiki>

 
[[Simulator_User_Group]]
{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.11.26|Prev 2013.11.26]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.12.10|Next 2013.12.10]]
|}

Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.12.10

2013-12-18T02:15:16Z

Andrew Linden:

[[Simulator_User_Group]]
{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.12.03|Prev 2013.12.03]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.12.17|Next 2013.12.17]]
|}

== List of Speakers ==
{|
|Adamburp Adamczyk
|Andrew Linden
|Duckie Dickins
|-
|Hexapoda
|Ima Mechanique
|Inara Pey
|-
|Jenna Felton
|Jonathan Yap
|Kelly Linden
|-
|Kitto Flora
|Lexbot Sinister
|Lucia Nightfire
|-
|Mona Eberhardt
|Motor Loon
|Nalates Urriah
|-
|Qie Niangao
|Simon Linden
|Siwo
|-
|Tiberious Neruda
|Whirly Fizzle
|Yuzuru Jewell
|-
|}

== Transcript ==
[12:01] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Hi everyone</nowiki>

[12:01] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: hello</nowiki>

[12:01] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: Hi Simon</nowiki>

[12:01] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: we've been decorating your house. :)</nowiki>

[12:01] Inara Pey<nowiki>: Hi, Simon, Kelly</nowiki>

[12:01] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Hi Simon.</nowiki>

[12:01] Simon Linden<nowiki>: oh good, it needs some holiday decorations</nowiki>

[12:01] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Simon, you need to add an unsit to your chair instead of a ball blocker, heh</nowiki>

[12:02] Hexapoda<nowiki>: I did try to get all to sit around that chair today :-)</nowiki>

[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yeah ... I'm not sure if those are modifyable or not</nowiki>

[12:02] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: it is under GM what level 200+?</nowiki>

[12:02] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Hello, Simon.</nowiki>

[12:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: right Lucy .. I'm just trying not to abuse my superpowers too often for my own amusement :)</nowiki>

[12:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I can get started with release news</nowiki>

[12:04] Neva Naughty Designs Christmas Caroling TeddyBear '08 whispers<nowiki>: Playing Deck Halls</nowiki>

[12:04] Neva Naughty Designs Christmas Caroling TeddyBear '08 whispers<nowiki>: Preloading your song request. Please wait a few moments...</nowiki>

[12:04] Simon Linden<nowiki>: we updated the main channel this morning with the code that was on the RC channels</nowiki>

[12:04] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: oh shush music bear</nowiki>

[12:04] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Tomorrow the RC channels all get the same update, which is really minor</nowiki>

[12:05] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The forum post is here: </nowiki>http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2013-12-09/td-p/2368751

[12:05] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That will be the last planned server update until January</nowiki>

[12:05] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: won't that go out to MC on the 17th?</nowiki>

[12:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: There won't be any rolls next week</nowiki>

[12:06] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: great...</nowiki>

[12:06] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: heh</nowiki>

[12:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: we're getting into the "no change window" for the holidays ... basically trying to settling things down as people take vacation, and giving us a week to make sure what's out there is solid.</nowiki>

[12:07] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I'm sure you know why I asked, lol</nowiki>

[12:07] Simon Linden<nowiki>: If we rolled something next week that had problems, we might not discover it or realize we had to update until we got into vacations, and then things get a lot more difficult to make it happen</nowiki>

[12:08] Simon Linden<nowiki>: So that's it for server news ... Andrew or Kelly, do you folks have anything?</nowiki>

[12:08] Motor Loon<nowiki>: Any news on the pesky autoreturn-not-working-bug ?</nowiki>

[12:08] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: Isn't that what server minions are for? My company took us to hawaii for christmas once and being the server minion, I had to monitor things even while on vacation. :)</nowiki>

[12:08] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[12:08] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Autoretirn big should be fixed on the RC's</nowiki>

[12:08] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: er... what's the 'controls-grabbing' change mean?</nowiki>

[12:08] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: *i=u</nowiki>

[12:08] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That's fixed, Motor</nowiki>

[12:09] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: We have some server minions, but they are not qualified to fix the major stuff. We're worried about accidentally deploying a major problem over the holidays.</nowiki>

[12:10] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Where do you see that, Tiberious ?</nowiki>

[12:10] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: lol as opposed to deliberately deploying one?</nowiki>

[12:10] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: it's listed in the changes for 13.11.19.284082 (the previous main channel update)</nowiki>

[12:10] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: it just says "Cleanup of controls-grabbing in LSL scripts (no functional changes)"</nowiki>

[12:10] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Yes, naturally we wouldn't suspect deliberate malicious behavior of ourselves ;-)</nowiki>

[12:10] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Simon, any chance that Vivox exploit I told you about a few days ago will be fixed?</nowiki>

[12:11] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: I haven't had a chance to double check it with the official viewer but I noticed that abandoned parcels on mainland....they show object entry as being set to group only but you're stilll allowed to have objects enter the parcel. :)</nowiki>

[12:11] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Tiberious, I think that "controls grabbing" cleanup was stuff I did. It really was just cleanup</nowiki>

[12:11] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but it had to be tested</nowiki>

[12:11] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: ah</nowiki>

[12:11] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: and we figured we would mention it in case someone spots a bug therein</nowiki>

[12:12] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Mona - I'm not sure when that Vivox issue will get attention</nowiki>

[12:12] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Andrew, did you see my email on that little bug in the server work you did for storm-68?</nowiki>

[12:12] JIRA-helper<nowiki>: </nowiki>http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-68

<nowiki>[#STORM-68] As a Builder, I want that ability to set default permissions on creation of objects, clothing, scripts, notecards, etc. - Second Life Bug Tracker</nowiki>

[12:12] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: I suppose it'll be looked on when it's old enough to vote. :/</nowiki>

[12:12] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: well, I have noticed I no longer need to reattach an object after saving or resetting a script that uses physics on me... that's welcome :3</nowiki>

[12:13] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: What about the problem with Server Machines having their clock set at the wrong time?</nowiki>

[12:13] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Jonathan, I don't think so. Unless it the initial, spurious 404 error on the first connection.</nowiki>

[12:13] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: no, it's a different message, only happens once</nowiki>

[12:14] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: When arriving in Borrowdale a moment ago and trying to set the initial</nowiki>

<nowiki>default permissions I received a "Not found" error dialog from the</nowiki>

<nowiki>POST error handler.</nowiki>

[12:14] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: that's on aditi</nowiki>

[12:14] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Kitto, have you spotted that bug more than that one time?</nowiki>

[12:15] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Andrew - yes - we had another instance a few days ago. Tickleted. I and others have seen it n the past</nowiki>

[12:15] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Jonathan, you're saying that bug is reproducible?</nowiki>

[12:15] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: yes, very much so</nowiki>

[12:15] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: you get that once for each new avatar</nowiki>

[12:15] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-4537<nowiki> was case of server clock being at wrong time.</nowiki>

[12:15] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: that goes to a test region</nowiki>

[12:15] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Ok Kitto, I'll ask our #ops team if they know how to watch for or otherwise prevent that problem.</nowiki>

[12:16] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Andow - dont server machines use NTP?</nowiki>

[12:16] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Jonathan, I don't have any theories ATM as to why that bug would happen. I'll have to reproduce it and watch it happen to get more clues, I think.</nowiki>

[12:16] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: I was thinking it was from the first time you create a db entry for the new agent</nowiki>

[12:17] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Oz can give you a link to a test build</nowiki>

[12:17] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: of the viewer</nowiki>

[12:17] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Did they fix the build failing on windows yet Jonathan?</nowiki>

[12:17] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: that is a build farm issue</nowiki>

[12:17] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Jonathan, no that does not make sense.</nowiki>

[12:18] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Actually I do have a theory... I wonder if the viewer is not actually asking for the cap *before* trying to hit it.</nowiki>

[12:18] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Also, if your changes can get into Oz's regions then I can restart them</nowiki>

[12:18] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: That is, when you login the "seed cap" provides a list of all available caps.</nowiki>

[12:18] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: And then the viewer must actually ask for the relevant caps before using them.</nowiki>

[12:18] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: You mean it has to do a GET first?</nowiki>

[12:18] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Typically the viewer just asks for all available caps right off the bat, but it doesn't have to do so.</nowiki>

[12:19] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: It could, in theory, ask for the cap later, right before trying to use it.</nowiki>

[12:19] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: I did add that cap to the long initial list</nowiki>

[12:19] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: There is some code in the veiwer, if I remember correctly, that must be called ot request the cap.</nowiki>

[12:19] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: more than typically, generally that gets coded directly into the llViewerRegion code</nowiki>

[12:19] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Ok, perhaps you're doing it right.</nowiki>

[12:19] Simon Linden<nowiki>: There is a window between that initial cap request and when they are returned that can cause trouble if you're trying to do things when initially entering a region</nowiki>

[12:19] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: If this theory doesn't make sense, then I don't yet have a second one.</nowiki>

[12:20] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: The call to POST happens early on - the first time region data arrives</nowiki>

[12:20] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Ah hrm... Simon has the second theory... perhaps the viewer must wait a couple seconds before the first POST.</nowiki>

[12:21] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: I could ignore that error, as things do seem to work</nowiki>

[12:21] Simon Linden<nowiki>: well, if you don't have the cap yet, you don't have a URL to POST to ... assuming that's what you're doing</nowiki>

[12:21] Simon Linden<nowiki>: There's a callback mechanism to do things when the sim caps arrive, so if you want to do something right off, that's how you get notified</nowiki>

[12:22] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Remember, for caps to work there is some setup that must be done server-side (mapping a public URI to an internal URI) in a little db lookup table.</nowiki>

[12:22] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Perhaps that is the db you were talking about Jonathan earlier, when I said it "didn't make sense"</nowiki>

[12:22] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Simon, do you remember the name of that "caps arrive" routine?</nowiki>

[12:22] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: where's the chef btw?</nowiki>

[12:22] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: perhaps I just didn't understand what db you were talking about</nowiki>

[12:22] Simon Linden<nowiki>: one sec, I'll look it up...</nowiki>

[12:22] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: wouldn't that be finish by the time the sim starts advertising those services?</nowiki>

[12:23] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: I do a post at the very end of the routine that parses region packets</nowiki>

[12:23] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: no I don't think so Ima. The sim advertises all possible services, but doesn't actually set them up until the viewer asks for them.</nowiki>

[12:23] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: at which point there is some work to do that can take some time</nowiki>

[12:23] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: that would explain some observed behaviour</nowiki>

[12:24] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: In theory the viewer could not ask for a relavent cap until it is ready to use it</nowiki>

[12:24] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Jonathan - look for setCapabilitiesReceivedCallback() usage</nowiki>

[12:24] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but in practice I think the veiwer just asks for all caps... simpler to code</nowiki>

[12:24] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: ok, thank you</nowiki>

[12:24] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: that makes much more sense than the place I am doing the POST from now</nowiki>

[12:25] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: the problem with asking for all caps is that there is a slight security risk: if your caps are given to a third party then they can access them as long as they are valid</nowiki>

[12:25] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: so if the viewer never asked for caps it wasn't using then those caps would not be open to exploit</nowiki>

[12:26] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but the public version of the cap is basically unguessable... the exploit could only happen if the third party managed to read them from your viewer session</nowiki>

[12:26] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: hmm, wait though, I only get this error once per region, not once per login</nowiki>

[12:26] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: so... how many movement attributes does an avatar have? I can think of: Walking, Running, Jumping, Falling and Crouchwalking... are there any others?</nowiki>

[12:26] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: or it might even be just once per avatar, irregardless of region</nowiki>

[12:27] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Jonathan, you should only need to POST to that cap once per login, or each time you change the defaults.</nowiki>

[12:27] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: Tibierious, flying</nowiki>

[12:27] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: oh yeah</nowiki>

[12:27] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: duh</nowiki>

[12:27] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Andrew, that is what I am doing</nowiki>

[12:27] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: LOL! Man, I feel like an idiot for not considering that one</nowiki>

[12:27] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: But I only get that error once, not every time I log in</nowiki>

[12:28] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: and hovering I think</nowiki>

[12:28] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ah, but the subsequent change POST fails first time in each region?</nowiki>

[12:28] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: To get it again I have to change accounts</nowiki>

[12:28] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: no, in a different test region there is no error</nowiki>

[12:28] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: turning, crouching , swimming and pointing (selection/build)</nowiki>

[12:28] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: I onlhy do the post once</nowiki>

[12:28] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: so you get one error per login</nowiki>

[12:29] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: no, one error per avatar, not counting logins</nowiki>

[12:29] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: anyway... I'm asking because I'm curious how feasible it might be to let us use an LSL function to modify those movement speeds, similar to how we got ll*AnimationOverride for animations</nowiki>

[12:29] Hexapoda<nowiki>: Where is Baker and how does his work come along?</nowiki>

[12:29] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: This is getting a little too much for this meeting--maybe you can do some testing Andrew with my viewer</nowiki>

[12:30] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Baker is on a plane right now, I think ... his work is still in testing</nowiki>

[12:30] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Tiberious, when you say "movement speeds" you're talking about the cycle/completion speed of the animation itself, not the velocity speeds of the moving avatar, right?</nowiki>

[12:30] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: 'cause, let's be honest, it looks REALLY goofy to have huge avs (think > 10' tall here) having a short av of only 4'-something keeping up when them</nowiki>

[12:30] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: I'm talking abot velocities</nowiki>

[12:30] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: (and the impulse on a jump)</nowiki>

[12:31] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ah</nowiki>

[12:31] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: well, if you could sync animation to moving speed, that would be very good for immersion, indeed</nowiki>

[12:31] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: can't you already do that with movement and jump enhancers that are already on the marketplace?</nowiki>

[12:32] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: oh, I'm sure you can... hell, I've got a slow-fall in my av, but that's probably harsh on the sim</nowiki>

[12:32] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: control of the framerate of the avatar animation would be great too. Some AOs would benefit off changing speeds of the animation and the avarar velocity</nowiki>

[12:32] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: yeah</nowiki>

[12:33] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Hasn't Niran provided this facility in his viewer? :/</nowiki>

[12:33] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: speeding up a slow run animation to be a fast run animation could be interesting....much like the proposed pitch changing of sounds</nowiki>

[12:33] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: well, changing the target speeds of the avatar is technically possible, and I don't think it would be TOO hard to do</nowiki>

[12:33] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: I have balett boots that slow down the speed i move :) i beleive it does per pushing me back.</nowiki>

[12:34] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: But there's more urgent things at hand i think.. Like, is anyone doing support for changing the Slurls on the destination guide? At all? Tec...</nowiki>

[12:34] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Are they the ones made by KaS, Jenna?</nowiki>

[12:34] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: yes</nowiki>

[12:34] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: No, sorry, MD balett boots</nowiki>

[12:35] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: but you could have scripts set up to change your 'settings' ocne, and have them stick, like with the llAnimaionOverride functions</nowiki>

[12:35] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Jenna - fwiw there's a minor tweak I put in the viewer a while back under Develop / Avatar / Animation Speed. It now can bump speeds +/- 10%, but it's definitely experimental</nowiki>

[12:35] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: no more llSetVelocity every .1 seconds</nowiki>

[12:35] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Is the slow motion animations new as well? That ones cool</nowiki>

[12:36] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: What is the "destination guide". You mean the website destination guide?</nowiki>

[12:36] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: I know I'd make extensive use of the ability to set terminal velocity...</nowiki>

[12:36] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: Yeah. None of your department, i guess. unfortunately, nobody seems to know who's department it is</nowiki>

[12:37] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: I bet all of the web minions are busy being retasked to handle the woes of the marketplace. :)</nowiki>

[12:37] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: Andrew, this Avatar Speed setting in the viewer works for all animations? When so, than its not what i am thinking about :) because the idea was to have lsl function that controls that. since than the bots would change that on wear and release on unwear</nowiki>

[12:37] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: BTW, with the work I did for default new obj permissions for Jonathan, it is much easier (server-side anyway) to add per-avatar preferences and have them follow the avatar through region crosses and teleports.</nowiki>

[12:38] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I forget what the previous functionality was, Whirly ... I think you could slow them down but it was a single, hard-coded factor. It was easy to make it more flexible</nowiki>

[12:39] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Andrew, do those settings persist after logging out?</nowiki>

[12:39] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: No Jonathan.</nowiki>

[12:39] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: But I had to make sure they survived a region cross into a new region, or a teleport.</nowiki>

[12:39] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Oh I see, it changes +/- 10% for each click. Thats neat</nowiki>

[12:39] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: Slow Motion animations looks cool too :)</nowiki>

[12:40] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: now that could be interesting...</nowiki>

[12:40] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: what's an avatar's 'normal' running speed?</nowiki>

[12:40] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: Destination guide is part of the search... do you happen to know who's desk that is?</nowiki>

[12:40] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: assuming flat ground, anyway</nowiki>

[12:42] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: </nowiki>http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Voluntary_Movement_Speeds

[12:42] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: Is that a message from server to viewer, that scripts could misuse for the own needs?</nowiki>

[12:42] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: anyway... if we had an LSL function to modify an animation's speed (I'd guess it might be llAdjustAnimationspeed(float rate), I bet wecould make one optimized for that speed, and use math on our current velocity and auto-tweak it...</nowiki>

[12:42] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The animation speeds? That's all done on the viewer, and only shows up on your own</nowiki>

[12:42] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: oh</nowiki>

[12:43] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: and I take it there's no way to get the velocity of another avatar...</nowiki>

[12:44] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: It would be cool if creators-only could also view the mesh upload LOD triangles and vertices info used for a mesh object. Especially when you upload the same mesh with 5 different LOD settings and want to be able to look at the mesh object's properties and view that information on the best one. Lex spent a lot of time recently uploading mesh objects over and over again and if you don't write that info down, you can quickly lose track of settings you've already tried before.</nowiki>

[12:45] Simon Linden<nowiki>: you'd need a new function llGetVelocity( key ) for that, I think ... or have them wear a script with llGetVel(), I believe</nowiki>

[12:45] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: oh</nowiki>

[12:45] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: darn</nowiki>

[12:46] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: llGetObjectDetails(k,[OBJECT_VELOCITY])</nowiki>

[12:46] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Hmm you can backup your slm files each time after uploading a mesh. That saves all your upload settings</nowiki>

[12:46] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Duckie, you mean: meta information about the upload stored in the uploaded asset itself?</nowiki>

[12:46] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: yeah andrew</nowiki>

[12:46] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: there'd be more complicated and heavier resource usage ways to do it with sensors.</nowiki>

[12:46] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: 'cause if that weren't the case, and the viewer knew the velocities of other avatars, it could auto-apply scaling...</nowiki>

[12:46] Simon Linden<nowiki>: oh wait, llGetObjectDetails() with OBJECT_VELOCITY might work</nowiki>

[12:46] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: i'd suggest also a function llDetectedVelocity() for sensoers</nowiki>

[12:46] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: umm, yeah, does OBJECT_VELOCITY not work for avatars? or llDetectedVel() for sensed avatars?</nowiki>

[12:46] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: ah, ok</nowiki>

[12:46] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: both work</nowiki>

[12:47] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Duckie, I don't know offhand how hard that would be. I don't know much about the upload system and what info is available there. But I will ask.</nowiki>

[12:47] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: DetectedVel works on avatars</nowiki>

[12:47] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: have a HUD that uses that</nowiki>

[12:47] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: llDetectedVel() after sensor on Av</nowiki>

[12:47] Siwo<nowiki>: when I'm testing things on aditi (uplaoding mesh stuff), I always use lod settings and triangles count as name o:)</nowiki>

[12:47] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: sensors use more resources even if they're filtered though, sadly</nowiki>

[12:47] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: right</nowiki>

[12:48] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: but mine's not in a sensor... it's on collision_start</nowiki>

[12:49] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: which, in theory, shouldn't be as hard on the sim</nowiki>

[12:49] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: depends, heh</nowiki>

[12:49] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: saving settings for an upload would be great too, but thats viewer side. if i know i will have 10 almost same type, same sized mesh... having a setting where they all get roughly the same is great.</nowiki>

[12:49] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: BTW, I've implemented some experimental "uniform scaling" LSL functions. Won't be deployed until next year, but they are almost done.</nowiki>

[12:49] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: uniform scaling?</nowiki>

[12:49] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: like, on linksets?</nowiki>

[12:49] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: interppolating on/off options?</nowiki>

[12:49] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Lexbot, the slm file should do that</nowiki>

[12:49] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: yeah, scale the entire object by a factor of 2 in one call.</nowiki>

[12:50] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: ah</nowiki>

[12:50] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: that is cool</nowiki>

[12:50] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: cool</nowiki>

[12:50] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: does it stops when aprim in linkset is too small to scale everything, or will that prim be ignored?</nowiki>

[12:50] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: that would simplify resizer scripts for sure</nowiki>

[12:50] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: one problem with scaling by multiplicative factor is that the scale operation might fail for a number of reasons</nowiki>

[12:50] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: indeed</nowiki>

[12:51] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: there are four categories of failures: hit the "prim is too small" limit</nowiki>

[12:51] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: (2) hit the "prim is too big" limit</nowiki>

[12:51] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: if you ever try to resize mesh by script you can run into some nasty undesired effects, heh</nowiki>

[12:51] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: as well as weird script errors</nowiki>

[12:51] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: (3) violation of linkability rules for linked set (when making bigger)</nowiki>

[12:52] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: (4) misc failures because of navmeshy or other things</nowiki>

[12:52] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: theres also prim availability</nowiki>

[12:52] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: is the reason also returned by the function?</nowiki>

[12:52] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: which you can thank since teh new prim accountign system</nowiki>

[12:53] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: the current API includes three calls:</nowiki>

[12:53] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: (A) llGetMinScaleFactor()</nowiki>

[12:53] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: (B) llGetMaxScaleFactor()</nowiki>

[12:53] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: ah, and, when you scale up mesh, you increase the land impact. When the parcell is fulll than to scale bigger, will the function also fail?</nowiki>

[12:53] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: what about "parcel is full" fail?</nowiki>

[12:53] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: and (C) llScaleByFactor(float)</nowiki>

[12:53] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: ^^-- that</nowiki>

[12:53] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: right... I currently handle failures (1) through (3)</nowiki>

[12:54] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: and the llScaleByFactor() will return FALSE if it fails</nowiki>

[12:54] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but it won't tell you why it failed</nowiki>

[12:55] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but you can use llGetMaxScaleFactor() and friend to ask what the max/min multiplicative factors are possible for reasons (1) through (3)</nowiki>

[12:55] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: interesting</nowiki>

[12:55] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Needs some work, but it is in progress.</nowiki>

[12:55] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: llGetMaxLandImpactFactor()</nowiki>

[12:55] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: yes, very interesting :) even if i am dropping questions on the linden heads :)</nowiki>

[12:55] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: shineys are always welcome</nowiki>

[12:56] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: oh... speaking of linked stuff... is there any reason an avatar can't be set to 'Physics Type: None' when sitting on an object?</nowiki>

[12:56] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Those are good questions ... and best to ask now before it gets carved in stone :)</nowiki>

[12:56] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: maybe because you have a collision skeleton? *shrugs*</nowiki>

[12:57] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: I beleive i would need very soon a function that gives me how big i can scale the object up, before the parcel gets full</nowiki>

[12:57] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: probably this: llGetMaxLandImpactFactor()</nowiki>

[12:57] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: nah. The collision skeleton doesn't actually detemine collisions</nowiki>

[12:57] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I miss the old VD ghost trick, heh</nowiki>

[12:57] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Tiberious, mostly to prevent a collisionless exploit for some shoot-em-up game play in SL.</nowiki>

[12:57] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Even better would be a function to return LI for a given scale value, before the object is actually scaled</nowiki>

[12:58] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: well, I figure the sim would automatically set the physics type back when the av 'unlinks' from the object</nowiki>

[12:58] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: oh</nowiki>

[12:58] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Or that new routine could have a TEST option</nowiki>

[12:59] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: this is the reason i ask, heh</nowiki>

[12:59] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: if I set this physical, it's got my collision information with it</nowiki>

[12:59] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Jonathan, I'm not sure I understand how the TEST option would work.</nowiki>

[12:59] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: and it won't roll around</nowiki>

[12:59] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: hm, perhaps llGetMaxScaleFactor() handles the land impact already, than the request of mine is obwolete</nowiki>

[12:59] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: would be good if it was a calculates LI table for every object.. like, you could see a table of LI for different sizes</nowiki>

[13:00] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: calculated*</nowiki>

[13:00] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Andrew, it would pretend to do the scaling and also have a way of returing the new LI number</nowiki>

[13:00] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: so if the test failed then you know not to try scaling at that level</nowiki>

[13:00] Simon Linden<nowiki>: We're almost out of time ... since next week will be the last user group before the holidays, let's make it interesting and a bit of a party ... please bring some decorations or interesting holiday stuff if you'd like, and we can make it more festive</nowiki>

[13:00] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: Can you retreive land impact of n object at all?</nowiki>

[13:00] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: oh good idea Simon</nowiki>

[13:01] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: as you can see, it... kinda fails at rolling when I'm sat on it</nowiki>

[13:01] Siwo<nowiki>: woow... 'working' pokeball :o</nowiki>

[13:01] Hexapoda<nowiki>: I forgot my tree</nowiki>

[13:01] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: oh so there is a meeting next week after all</nowiki>

[13:01] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Jenna, not that I know of. Not by script anyway.</nowiki>

[13:01] Simon Linden<nowiki>: hmmm, seems that should be an option for llGetObjectDetails()</nowiki>

[13:02] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: ok, thank you Andrew</nowiki>

[13:02] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: OBJECT_PRIM_EQUIVALENCE</nowiki>

[13:02] Neva Naughty Designs Christmas Caroling TeddyBear '08 whispers<nowiki>: Preloading your song request. Please wait a few moments...</nowiki>

[13:02] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Does anyone have the fist 6 min or so of the transcripts for day?</nowiki>

[13:02] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: er... for today?</nowiki>

[13:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I have it</nowiki>

[13:02] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: I think the first 6 minutes we were decorating jonathan. :)</nowiki>

<nowiki>13:02] Hexapoda: llGetXmasSpirit()</nowiki>

[13:02] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ok Simon, just send me the entire transcript</nowiki>

[13:02] Neva Naughty Designs Christmas Caroling TeddyBear '08 whispers<nowiki>: Playing.</nowiki>

[13:03] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: now I know who's missing, its Rex, heh</nowiki>

[13:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: sure</nowiki>

[13:03] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: cheers</nowiki>

[13:03] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Thanks folks. Have fun all!</nowiki>

[13:03] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Thanks Lindens.</nowiki>

[13:03] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: bye all</nowiki>

[13:03] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: thank you</nowiki>

[13:03] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Take care, all.</nowiki>

[13:03] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Thank you, Lindens.</nowiki>

[13:03] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Ty Lindens</nowiki>

[13:03] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: yes, got to go too. Have a good week all and thank you for meeting Lindens</nowiki>

[13:03] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: bye - thx Lindens</nowiki>

[13:03] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: Thanks for the meeting!</nowiki>

[13:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Thanks everyone for coming and the good chat and ideas</nowiki>

[13:04] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Oh right, I've got a question for Whirly...</nowiki>

[13:04] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: o.O</nowiki>

[13:04] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: See you again next week! Don't forget to bring bears and gifts :P</nowiki>

[13:04] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: I didn't do it!</nowiki>

[13:04] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: non-perishables too</nowiki>

[13:04] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Whirly, a resident was asking me how they could get access to the bug reports</nowiki>

[13:04] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I know you have access, and a few other Residents</nowiki>

[13:05] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: and I know I asked this before in the past, but I forget the answer...</nowiki>

[13:05] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: They need to ping Alexa or Oz and fit the criteria for access</nowiki>

[13:05] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: There is a special JIRA group for that</nowiki>

[13:05] Duckie Dickins<nowiki> whispers: You drop off a pile of starbucks gift cards at the main office. :)</nowiki>

[13:05] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ok thanks. Yeah, that was the question.</nowiki>

[13:05] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: they have to 'survive' the initiation and orientation process</nowiki>

[13:05] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and set a new record for getting coffe and doughnuts</nowiki>

[13:05] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ok thanks.</nowiki>

[13:06] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: somethign like that, heh</nowiki>

[13:06] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Criteria is (as far as I know): Have a CA on file with LL and be an active contribter, be part of a TPV team or already have been in the good-citizens JIRA group before the JIRA closedown. people were added to this group after being helpful on JIRA for some time.</nowiki>

[13:06] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: maybe x% amount of the jiras have to be filed by you. :)</nowiki>

[13:07] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Proably Alexa really</nowiki>

[13:07] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: But Oz or Alexa are who they need to ping</nowiki>

[13:07] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Thanks, I will relay that info.</nowiki>

[13:07] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Whirl has 51% of shares, I mean jiras, he</nowiki>

 
[[Simulator_User_Group]]
{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.12.03|Prev 2013.12.03]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.12.17|Next 2013.12.17]]
|}

Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.12.10

2013-12-18T00:45:00Z

Andrew Linden: Created page with "[12:04] Neva Naughty Designs Christmas Caroling TeddyBear '08 whispers<nowiki>: Preloading your song request. Please wait a few moments...</nowiki></fo…"

[12:04] Neva Naughty Designs Christmas Caroling TeddyBear '08 whispers<nowiki>: Preloading your song request. Please wait a few moments...</nowiki>

[12:04] Simon Linden<nowiki>: we updated the main channel this morning with the code that was on the RC channels</nowiki>

[12:04] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: oh shush music bear</nowiki>

[12:04] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Tomorrow the RC channels all get the same update, which is really minor</nowiki>

[12:05] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The forum post is here: </nowiki>http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2013-12-09/td-p/2368751

[12:05] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That will be the last planned server update until January</nowiki>

[12:05] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: won't that go out to MC on the 17th?</nowiki>

[12:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: There won't be any rolls next week</nowiki>

[12:06] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: great...</nowiki>

[12:06] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: heh</nowiki>

[12:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: we're getting into the "no change window" for the holidays ... basically trying to settling things down as people take vacation, and giving us a week to make sure what's out there is solid.</nowiki>

[12:07] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I'm sure you know why I asked, lol</nowiki>

[12:07] Simon Linden<nowiki>: If we rolled something next week that had problems, we might not discover it or realize we had to update until we got into vacations, and then things get a lot more difficult to make it happen</nowiki>

[12:08] Simon Linden<nowiki>: So that's it for server news ... Andrew or Kelly, do you folks have anything?</nowiki>

[12:08] Motor Loon<nowiki>: Any news on the pesky autoreturn-not-working-bug ?</nowiki>

[12:08] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: Isn't that what server minions are for? My company took us to hawaii for christmas once and being the server minion, I had to monitor things even while on vacation. :)</nowiki>

[12:08] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[12:08] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Autoretirn big should be fixed on the RC's</nowiki>

[12:08] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: er... what's the 'controls-grabbing' change mean?</nowiki>

[12:08] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: *i=u</nowiki>

[12:08] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That's fixed, Motor</nowiki>

[12:09] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: We have some server minions, but they are not qualified to fix the major stuff. We're worried about accidentally deploying a major problem over the holidays.</nowiki>

[12:10] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Where do you see that, Tiberious ?</nowiki>

[12:10] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: lol as opposed to deliberately deploying one?</nowiki>

[12:10] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: it's listed in the changes for 13.11.19.284082 (the previous main channel update)</nowiki>

[12:10] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: it just says "Cleanup of controls-grabbing in LSL scripts (no functional changes)"</nowiki>

[12:10] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Yes, naturally we wouldn't suspect deliberate malicious behavior of ourselves ;-)</nowiki>

[12:10] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Simon, any chance that Vivox exploit I told you about a few days ago will be fixed?</nowiki>

[12:11] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: I haven't had a chance to double check it with the official viewer but I noticed that abandoned parcels on mainland....they show object entry as being set to group only but you're stilll allowed to have objects enter the parcel. :)</nowiki>

[12:11] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Tiberious, I think that "controls grabbing" cleanup was stuff I did. It really was just cleanup</nowiki>

[12:11] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but it had to be tested</nowiki>

[12:11] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: ah</nowiki>

[12:11] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: and we figured we would mention it in case someone spots a bug therein</nowiki>

[12:12] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Mona - I'm not sure when that Vivox issue will get attention</nowiki>

[12:12] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Andrew, did you see my email on that little bug in the server work you did for storm-68?</nowiki>

[12:12] JIRA-helper<nowiki>: </nowiki>http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-68

<nowiki>[#STORM-68] As a Builder, I want that ability to set default permissions on creation of objects, clothing, scripts, notecards, etc. - Second Life Bug Tracker</nowiki>

[12:12] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: I suppose it'll be looked on when it's old enough to vote. :/</nowiki>

[12:12] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: well, I have noticed I no longer need to reattach an object after saving or resetting a script that uses physics on me... that's welcome :3</nowiki>

[12:13] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: What about the problem with Server Machines having their clock set at the wrong time?</nowiki>

[12:13] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Jonathan, I don't think so. Unless it the initial, spurious 404 error on the first connection.</nowiki>

[12:13] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: no, it's a different message, only happens once</nowiki>

[12:14] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: When arriving in Borrowdale a moment ago and trying to set the initial</nowiki>

<nowiki>default permissions I received a "Not found" error dialog from the</nowiki>

<nowiki>POST error handler.</nowiki>

[12:14] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: that's on aditi</nowiki>

[12:14] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Kitto, have you spotted that bug more than that one time?</nowiki>

[12:15] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Andrew - yes - we had another instance a few days ago. Tickleted. I and others have seen it n the past</nowiki>

[12:15] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Jonathan, you're saying that bug is reproducible?</nowiki>

[12:15] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: yes, very much so</nowiki>

[12:15] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: you get that once for each new avatar</nowiki>

[12:15] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-4537<nowiki> was case of server clock being at wrong time.</nowiki>

[12:15] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: that goes to a test region</nowiki>

[12:15] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Ok Kitto, I'll ask our #ops team if they know how to watch for or otherwise prevent that problem.</nowiki>

[12:16] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Andow - dont server machines use NTP?</nowiki>

[12:16] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Jonathan, I don't have any theories ATM as to why that bug would happen. I'll have to reproduce it and watch it happen to get more clues, I think.</nowiki>

[12:16] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: I was thinking it was from the first time you create a db entry for the new agent</nowiki>

[12:17] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Oz can give you a link to a test build</nowiki>

[12:17] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: of the viewer</nowiki>

[12:17] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Did they fix the build failing on windows yet Jonathan?</nowiki>

[12:17] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: that is a build farm issue</nowiki>

[12:17] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Jonathan, no that does not make sense.</nowiki>

[12:18] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Actually I do have a theory... I wonder if the viewer is not actually asking for the cap *before* trying to hit it.</nowiki>

[12:18] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Also, if your changes can get into Oz's regions then I can restart them</nowiki>

[12:18] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: That is, when you login the "seed cap" provides a list of all available caps.</nowiki>

[12:18] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: And then the viewer must actually ask for the relevant caps before using them.</nowiki>

[12:18] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: You mean it has to do a GET first?</nowiki>

[12:18] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Typically the viewer just asks for all available caps right off the bat, but it doesn't have to do so.</nowiki>

[12:19] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: It could, in theory, ask for the cap later, right before trying to use it.</nowiki>

[12:19] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: I did add that cap to the long initial list</nowiki>

[12:19] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: There is some code in the veiwer, if I remember correctly, that must be called ot request the cap.</nowiki>

[12:19] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: more than typically, generally that gets coded directly into the llViewerRegion code</nowiki>

[12:19] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Ok, perhaps you're doing it right.</nowiki>

[12:19] Simon Linden<nowiki>: There is a window between that initial cap request and when they are returned that can cause trouble if you're trying to do things when initially entering a region</nowiki>

[12:19] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: If this theory doesn't make sense, then I don't yet have a second one.</nowiki>

[12:20] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: The call to POST happens early on - the first time region data arrives</nowiki>

[12:20] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Ah hrm... Simon has the second theory... perhaps the viewer must wait a couple seconds before the first POST.</nowiki>

[12:21] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: I could ignore that error, as things do seem to work</nowiki>

[12:21] Simon Linden<nowiki>: well, if you don't have the cap yet, you don't have a URL to POST to ... assuming that's what you're doing</nowiki>

[12:21] Simon Linden<nowiki>: There's a callback mechanism to do things when the sim caps arrive, so if you want to do something right off, that's how you get notified</nowiki>

[12:22] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Remember, for caps to work there is some setup that must be done server-side (mapping a public URI to an internal URI) in a little db lookup table.</nowiki>

[12:22] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Perhaps that is the db you were talking about Jonathan earlier, when I said it "didn't make sense"</nowiki>

[12:22] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Simon, do you remember the name of that "caps arrive" routine?</nowiki>

[12:22] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: where's the chef btw?</nowiki>

[12:22] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: perhaps I just didn't understand what db you were talking about</nowiki>

[12:22] Simon Linden<nowiki>: one sec, I'll look it up...</nowiki>

[12:22] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: wouldn't that be finish by the time the sim starts advertising those services?</nowiki>

[12:23] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: I do a post at the very end of the routine that parses region packets</nowiki>

[12:23] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: no I don't think so Ima. The sim advertises all possible services, but doesn't actually set them up until the viewer asks for them.</nowiki>

[12:23] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: at which point there is some work to do that can take some time</nowiki>

[12:23] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: that would explain some observed behaviour</nowiki>

[12:24] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: In theory the viewer could not ask for a relavent cap until it is ready to use it</nowiki>

[12:24] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Jonathan - look for setCapabilitiesReceivedCallback() usage</nowiki>

[12:24] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but in practice I think the veiwer just asks for all caps... simpler to code</nowiki>

[12:24] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: ok, thank you</nowiki>

[12:24] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: that makes much more sense than the place I am doing the POST from now</nowiki>

[12:25] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: the problem with asking for all caps is that there is a slight security risk: if your caps are given to a third party then they can access them as long as they are valid</nowiki>

[12:25] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: so if the viewer never asked for caps it wasn't using then those caps would not be open to exploit</nowiki>

[12:26] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but the public version of the cap is basically unguessable... the exploit could only happen if the third party managed to read them from your viewer session</nowiki>

[12:26] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: hmm, wait though, I only get this error once per region, not once per login</nowiki>

[12:26] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: so... how many movement attributes does an avatar have? I can think of: Walking, Running, Jumping, Falling and Crouchwalking... are there any others?</nowiki>

[12:26] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: or it might even be just once per avatar, irregardless of region</nowiki>

[12:27] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Jonathan, you should only need to POST to that cap once per login, or each time you change the defaults.</nowiki>

[12:27] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: Tibierious, flying</nowiki>

[12:27] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: oh yeah</nowiki>

[12:27] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: duh</nowiki>

[12:27] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Andrew, that is what I am doing</nowiki>

[12:27] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: LOL! Man, I feel like an idiot for not considering that one</nowiki>

[12:27] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: But I only get that error once, not every time I log in</nowiki>

[12:28] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: and hovering I think</nowiki>

[12:28] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ah, but the subsequent change POST fails first time in each region?</nowiki>

[12:28] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: To get it again I have to change accounts</nowiki>

[12:28] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: no, in a different test region there is no error</nowiki>

[12:28] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: turning, crouching , swimming and pointing (selection/build)</nowiki>

[12:28] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: I onlhy do the post once</nowiki>

[12:28] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: so you get one error per login</nowiki>

[12:29] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: no, one error per avatar, not counting logins</nowiki>

[12:29] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: anyway... I'm asking because I'm curious how feasible it might be to let us use an LSL function to modify those movement speeds, similar to how we got ll*AnimationOverride for animations</nowiki>

[12:29] Hexapoda<nowiki>: Where is Baker and how does his work come along?</nowiki>

[12:29] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: This is getting a little too much for this meeting--maybe you can do some testing Andrew with my viewer</nowiki>

[12:30] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Baker is on a plane right now, I think ... his work is still in testing</nowiki>

[12:30] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Tiberious, when you say "movement speeds" you're talking about the cycle/completion speed of the animation itself, not the velocity speeds of the moving avatar, right?</nowiki>

[12:30] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: 'cause, let's be honest, it looks REALLY goofy to have huge avs (think > 10' tall here) having a short av of only 4'-something keeping up when them</nowiki>

[12:30] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: I'm talking abot velocities</nowiki>

[12:30] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: (and the impulse on a jump)</nowiki>

[12:31] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ah</nowiki>

[12:31] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: well, if you could sync animation to moving speed, that would be very good for immersion, indeed</nowiki>

[12:31] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: can't you already do that with movement and jump enhancers that are already on the marketplace?</nowiki>

[12:32] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: oh, I'm sure you can... hell, I've got a slow-fall in my av, but that's probably harsh on the sim</nowiki>

[12:32] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: control of the framerate of the avatar animation would be great too. Some AOs would benefit off changing speeds of the animation and the avarar velocity</nowiki>

[12:32] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: yeah</nowiki>

[12:33] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Hasn't Niran provided this facility in his viewer? :/</nowiki>

[12:33] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: speeding up a slow run animation to be a fast run animation could be interesting....much like the proposed pitch changing of sounds</nowiki>

[12:33] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: well, changing the target speeds of the avatar is technically possible, and I don't think it would be TOO hard to do</nowiki>

[12:33] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: I have balett boots that slow down the speed i move :) i beleive it does per pushing me back.</nowiki>

[12:34] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: But there's more urgent things at hand i think.. Like, is anyone doing support for changing the Slurls on the destination guide? At all? Tec...</nowiki>

[12:34] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Are they the ones made by KaS, Jenna?</nowiki>

[12:34] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: yes</nowiki>

[12:34] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: No, sorry, MD balett boots</nowiki>

[12:35] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: but you could have scripts set up to change your 'settings' ocne, and have them stick, like with the llAnimaionOverride functions</nowiki>

[12:35] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Jenna - fwiw there's a minor tweak I put in the viewer a while back under Develop / Avatar / Animation Speed. It now can bump speeds +/- 10%, but it's definitely experimental</nowiki>

[12:35] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: no more llSetVelocity every .1 seconds</nowiki>

[12:35] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Is the slow motion animations new as well? That ones cool</nowiki>

[12:36] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: What is the "destination guide". You mean the website destination guide?</nowiki>

[12:36] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: I know I'd make extensive use of the ability to set terminal velocity...</nowiki>

[12:36] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: Yeah. None of your department, i guess. unfortunately, nobody seems to know who's department it is</nowiki>

[12:37] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: I bet all of the web minions are busy being retasked to handle the woes of the marketplace. :)</nowiki>

[12:37] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: Andrew, this Avatar Speed setting in the viewer works for all animations? When so, than its not what i am thinking about :) because the idea was to have lsl function that controls that. since than the bots would change that on wear and release on unwear</nowiki>

[12:37] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: BTW, with the work I did for default new obj permissions for Jonathan, it is much easier (server-side anyway) to add per-avatar preferences and have them follow the avatar through region crosses and teleports.</nowiki>

[12:38] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I forget what the previous functionality was, Whirly ... I think you could slow them down but it was a single, hard-coded factor. It was easy to make it more flexible</nowiki>

[12:39] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Andrew, do those settings persist after logging out?</nowiki>

[12:39] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: No Jonathan.</nowiki>

[12:39] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: But I had to make sure they survived a region cross into a new region, or a teleport.</nowiki>

[12:39] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Oh I see, it changes +/- 10% for each click. Thats neat</nowiki>

[12:39] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: Slow Motion animations looks cool too :)</nowiki>

[12:40] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: now that could be interesting...</nowiki>

[12:40] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: what's an avatar's 'normal' running speed?</nowiki>

[12:40] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: Destination guide is part of the search... do you happen to know who's desk that is?</nowiki>

[12:40] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: assuming flat ground, anyway</nowiki>

[12:42] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: </nowiki>http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Voluntary_Movement_Speeds

[12:42] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: Is that a message from server to viewer, that scripts could misuse for the own needs?</nowiki>

[12:42] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: anyway... if we had an LSL function to modify an animation's speed (I'd guess it might be llAdjustAnimationspeed(float rate), I bet wecould make one optimized for that speed, and use math on our current velocity and auto-tweak it...</nowiki>

[12:42] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The animation speeds? That's all done on the viewer, and only shows up on your own</nowiki>

[12:42] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: oh</nowiki>

[12:43] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: and I take it there's no way to get the velocity of another avatar...</nowiki>

[12:44] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: It would be cool if creators-only could also view the mesh upload LOD triangles and vertices info used for a mesh object. Especially when you upload the same mesh with 5 different LOD settings and want to be able to look at the mesh object's properties and view that information on the best one. Lex spent a lot of time recently uploading mesh objects over and over again and if you don't write that info down, you can quickly lose track of settings you've already tried before.</nowiki>

[12:45] Simon Linden<nowiki>: you'd need a new function llGetVelocity( key ) for that, I think ... or have them wear a script with llGetVel(), I believe</nowiki>

[12:45] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: oh</nowiki>

[12:45] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: darn</nowiki>

[12:46] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: llGetObjectDetails(k,[OBJECT_VELOCITY])</nowiki>

[12:46] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Hmm you can backup your slm files each time after uploading a mesh. That saves all your upload settings</nowiki>

[12:46] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Duckie, you mean: meta information about the upload stored in the uploaded asset itself?</nowiki>

[12:46] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: yeah andrew</nowiki>

[12:46] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: there'd be more complicated and heavier resource usage ways to do it with sensors.</nowiki>

[12:46] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: 'cause if that weren't the case, and the viewer knew the velocities of other avatars, it could auto-apply scaling...</nowiki>

[12:46] Simon Linden<nowiki>: oh wait, llGetObjectDetails() with OBJECT_VELOCITY might work</nowiki>

[12:46] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: i'd suggest also a function llDetectedVelocity() for sensoers</nowiki>

[12:46] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: umm, yeah, does OBJECT_VELOCITY not work for avatars? or llDetectedVel() for sensed avatars?</nowiki>

[12:46] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: ah, ok</nowiki>

[12:46] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: both work</nowiki>

[12:47] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Duckie, I don't know offhand how hard that would be. I don't know much about the upload system and what info is available there. But I will ask.</nowiki>

[12:47] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: DetectedVel works on avatars</nowiki>

[12:47] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: have a HUD that uses that</nowiki>

[12:47] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: llDetectedVel() after sensor on Av</nowiki>

[12:47] Siwo<nowiki>: when I'm testing things on aditi (uplaoding mesh stuff), I always use lod settings and triangles count as name o:)</nowiki>

[12:47] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: sensors use more resources even if they're filtered though, sadly</nowiki>

[12:47] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: right</nowiki>

[12:48] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: but mine's not in a sensor... it's on collision_start</nowiki>

[12:49] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: which, in theory, shouldn't be as hard on the sim</nowiki>

[12:49] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: depends, heh</nowiki>

[12:49] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: saving settings for an upload would be great too, but thats viewer side. if i know i will have 10 almost same type, same sized mesh... having a setting where they all get roughly the same is great.</nowiki>

[12:49] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: BTW, I've implemented some experimental "uniform scaling" LSL functions. Won't be deployed until next year, but they are almost done.</nowiki>

[12:49] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: uniform scaling?</nowiki>

[12:49] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: like, on linksets?</nowiki>

[12:49] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: interppolating on/off options?</nowiki>

[12:49] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Lexbot, the slm file should do that</nowiki>

[12:49] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: yeah, scale the entire object by a factor of 2 in one call.</nowiki>

[12:50] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: ah</nowiki>

[12:50] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: that is cool</nowiki>

[12:50] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: cool</nowiki>

[12:50] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: does it stops when aprim in linkset is too small to scale everything, or will that prim be ignored?</nowiki>

[12:50] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: that would simplify resizer scripts for sure</nowiki>

[12:50] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: one problem with scaling by multiplicative factor is that the scale operation might fail for a number of reasons</nowiki>

[12:50] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: indeed</nowiki>

[12:51] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: there are four categories of failures: hit the "prim is too small" limit</nowiki>

[12:51] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: (2) hit the "prim is too big" limit</nowiki>

[12:51] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: if you ever try to resize mesh by script you can run into some nasty undesired effects, heh</nowiki>

[12:51] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: as well as weird script errors</nowiki>

[12:51] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: (3) violation of linkability rules for linked set (when making bigger)</nowiki>

[12:52] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: (4) misc failures because of navmeshy or other things</nowiki>

[12:52] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: theres also prim availability</nowiki>

[12:52] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: is the reason also returned by the function?</nowiki>

[12:52] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: which you can thank since teh new prim accountign system</nowiki>

[12:53] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: the current API includes three calls:</nowiki>

[12:53] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: (A) llGetMinScaleFactor()</nowiki>

[12:53] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: (B) llGetMaxScaleFactor()</nowiki>

[12:53] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: ah, and, when you scale up mesh, you increase the land impact. When the parcell is fulll than to scale bigger, will the function also fail?</nowiki>

[12:53] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: what about "parcel is full" fail?</nowiki>

[12:53] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: and (C) llScaleByFactor(float)</nowiki>

[12:53] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: ^^-- that</nowiki>

[12:53] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: right... I currently handle failures (1) through (3)</nowiki>

[12:54] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: and the llScaleByFactor() will return FALSE if it fails</nowiki>

[12:54] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but it won't tell you why it failed</nowiki>

[12:55] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but you can use llGetMaxScaleFactor() and friend to ask what the max/min multiplicative factors are possible for reasons (1) through (3)</nowiki>

[12:55] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: interesting</nowiki>

[12:55] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Needs some work, but it is in progress.</nowiki>

[12:55] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: llGetMaxLandImpactFactor()</nowiki>

[12:55] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: yes, very interesting :) even if i am dropping questions on the linden heads :)</nowiki>

[12:55] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: shineys are always welcome</nowiki>

[12:56] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: oh... speaking of linked stuff... is there any reason an avatar can't be set to 'Physics Type: None' when sitting on an object?</nowiki>

[12:56] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Those are good questions ... and best to ask now before it gets carved in stone :)</nowiki>

[12:56] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: maybe because you have a collision skeleton? *shrugs*</nowiki>

[12:57] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: I beleive i would need very soon a function that gives me how big i can scale the object up, before the parcel gets full</nowiki>

[12:57] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: probably this: llGetMaxLandImpactFactor()</nowiki>

[12:57] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: nah. The collision skeleton doesn't actually detemine collisions</nowiki>

[12:57] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I miss the old VD ghost trick, heh</nowiki>

[12:57] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Tiberious, mostly to prevent a collisionless exploit for some shoot-em-up game play in SL.</nowiki>

[12:57] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Even better would be a function to return LI for a given scale value, before the object is actually scaled</nowiki>

[12:58] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: well, I figure the sim would automatically set the physics type back when the av 'unlinks' from the object</nowiki>

[12:58] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: oh</nowiki>

[12:58] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Or that new routine could have a TEST option</nowiki>

[12:59] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: this is the reason i ask, heh</nowiki>

[12:59] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: if I set this physical, it's got my collision information with it</nowiki>

[12:59] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Jonathan, I'm not sure I understand how the TEST option would work.</nowiki>

[12:59] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: and it won't roll around</nowiki>

[12:59] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: hm, perhaps llGetMaxScaleFactor() handles the land impact already, than the request of mine is obwolete</nowiki>

[12:59] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: would be good if it was a calculates LI table for every object.. like, you could see a table of LI for different sizes</nowiki>

[13:00] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: calculated*</nowiki>

[13:00] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Andrew, it would pretend to do the scaling and also have a way of returing the new LI number</nowiki>

[13:00] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: so if the test failed then you know not to try scaling at that level</nowiki>

[13:00] Simon Linden<nowiki>: We're almost out of time ... since next week will be the last user group before the holidays, let's make it interesting and a bit of a party ... please bring some decorations or interesting holiday stuff if you'd like, and we can make it more festive</nowiki>

[13:00] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: Can you retreive land impact of n object at all?</nowiki>

[13:00] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: oh good idea Simon</nowiki>

[13:01] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: as you can see, it... kinda fails at rolling when I'm sat on it</nowiki>

[13:01] Siwo<nowiki>: woow... 'working' pokeball :o</nowiki>

[13:01] Hexapoda<nowiki>: I forgot my tree</nowiki>

[13:01] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: oh so there is a meeting next week after all</nowiki>

[13:01] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Jenna, not that I know of. Not by script anyway.</nowiki>

[13:01] Simon Linden<nowiki>: hmmm, seems that should be an option for llGetObjectDetails()</nowiki>

[13:02] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: ok, thank you Andrew</nowiki>

[13:02] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: OBJECT_PRIM_EQUIVALENCE</nowiki>

[13:02] Neva Naughty Designs Christmas Caroling TeddyBear '08 whispers<nowiki>: Preloading your song request. Please wait a few moments...</nowiki>

[13:02] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Does anyone have the fist 6 min or so of the transcripts for day?</nowiki>

[13:02] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: er... for today?</nowiki>

[13:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I have it</nowiki>

[13:02] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: I think the first 6 minutes we were decorating jonathan. :)</nowiki>

<nowiki>13:02] Hexapoda: llGetXmasSpirit()</nowiki>

[13:02] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ok Simon, just send me the entire transcript</nowiki>

[13:02] Neva Naughty Designs Christmas Caroling TeddyBear '08 whispers<nowiki>: Playing.</nowiki>

[13:03] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: now I know who's missing, its Rex, heh</nowiki>

[13:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: sure</nowiki>

[13:03] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: cheers</nowiki>

[13:03] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Thanks folks. Have fun all!</nowiki>

[13:03] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Thanks Lindens.</nowiki>

[13:03] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: bye all</nowiki>

[13:03] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: thank you</nowiki>

[13:03] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Take care, all.</nowiki>

[13:03] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Thank you, Lindens.</nowiki>

[13:03] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Ty Lindens</nowiki>

[13:03] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: yes, got to go too. Have a good week all and thank you for meeting Lindens</nowiki>

[13:03] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: bye - thx Lindens</nowiki>

[13:03] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: Thanks for the meeting!</nowiki>

[13:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Thanks everyone for coming and the good chat and ideas</nowiki>

[13:04] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Oh right, I've got a question for Whirly...</nowiki>

[13:04] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: o.O</nowiki>

[13:04] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: See you again next week! Don't forget to bring bears and gifts :P</nowiki>

[13:04] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: I didn't do it!</nowiki>

[13:04] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: non-perishables too</nowiki>

[13:04] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Whirly, a resident was asking me how they could get access to the bug reports</nowiki>

[13:04] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I know you have access, and a few other Residents</nowiki>

[13:05] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: and I know I asked this before in the past, but I forget the answer...</nowiki>

[13:05] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: They need to ping Alexa or Oz and fit the criteria for access</nowiki>

[13:05] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: There is a special JIRA group for that</nowiki>

[13:05] Duckie Dickins<nowiki> whispers: You drop off a pile of starbucks gift cards at the main office. :)</nowiki>

[13:05] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ok thanks. Yeah, that was the question.</nowiki>

[13:05] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: they have to 'survive' the initiation and orientation process</nowiki>

[13:05] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and set a new record for getting coffe and doughnuts</nowiki>

[13:05] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ok thanks.</nowiki>

[13:06] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: somethign like that, heh</nowiki>

[13:06] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Criteria is (as far as I know): Have a CA on file with LL and be an active contribter, be part of a TPV team or already have been in the good-citizens JIRA group before the JIRA closedown. people were added to this group after being helpful on JIRA for some time.</nowiki>

[13:06] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: maybe x% amount of the jiras have to be filed by you. :)</nowiki>

[13:07] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Proably Alexa really</nowiki>

[13:07] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: But Oz or Alexa are who they need to ping</nowiki>

[13:07] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Thanks, I will relay that info.</nowiki>

[13:07] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Whirl has 51% of shares, I mean jiras, he</nowiki>

 
[[Simulator_User_Group]]
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| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.12.03|Prev 2013.12.03]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.12.17|Next 2013.12.17]]
|}

Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.12.17

2013-12-18T00:34:58Z

Andrew Linden: Created page with "Simulator_User_Group {| | Prev 2013.12.10 | Next 2013.12.24 |} == List of Spe…"

[[Simulator_User_Group]]
{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.12.10|Prev 2013.12.10]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.12.24|Next 2013.12.24]]
|}

== List of Speakers ==
{|
|Adamburp Adamczyk
|Andrew Linden
|Baker Linden
|-
|Dante Spectre
|Duckie Dickins
|Ima Mechanique
|-
|Inara Pey
|Jenna Felton
|Judy Chestnut
|-
|Kallista Destiny
|Kelly Linden
|Kennylex Luckless
|-
|Kitto Flora
|Lexbot Sinister
|Lucia Nightfire
|-
|MartinRJ
|Mona Eberhardt
|Nalates Urriah
|-
|Rex Cronon
|Simon Linden
|Theresa Tennyson
|-
|Tiberious Neruda
|Visitor Detector
|Whirly Fizzle
|-
|Yuzuru Jewell
|}

== Transcript ==
[11:55] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Simon, any news on SEC-1376?</nowiki>

[11:56] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Stamunk, how wonderful</nowiki>

[11:56] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: hello Baker</nowiki>

[11:56] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: and all :)</nowiki>

[11:57] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Hello, Baker.</nowiki>

[11:57] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: steampunk*</nowiki>

[11:57] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Hi Baker.</nowiki>

[11:57] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Hello, Jenna.</nowiki>

[11:57] Simon Linden<nowiki>: No Mona, I haven't heard anything about that.</nowiki>

[11:57] Simon Linden<nowiki>: if anyone feels creative, please feel free to decorate for the holidays :)</nowiki>

[11:58] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Well Simon, I didn't expect anything really, as it's a Vivox exploit. Which means you guys have to wait for Vivox to do something about it.</nowiki>

[11:58] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Baker, I think you should be glad that Yuki from the "Menage a 3" webcomic isn't here...</nowiki>

[11:58] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: can I decorate with my 1.5 billion land impact test? actually its close to 2.1 billion now</nowiki>

[11:58] Visitor Detector<nowiki>: Returning visitor to your land: Kitto Flora</nowiki>

[11:59] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: uhoh</nowiki>

[11:59] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: how many sims you need for that?</nowiki>

[11:59] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Wow, how did you reach such LI figures, Lucy?</nowiki>

[11:59] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: secret</nowiki>

[11:59] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and I only need one sim</nowiki>

[11:59] Simon Linden<nowiki>: uh, normal griefing rules still apply of course :)</nowiki>

[11:59] Baker Linden<nowiki>: I need a game of thrones chair, but with candy canes</nowiki>

[11:59] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: want to see what happens when it goes over 0x7fffffff</nowiki>

[11:59] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Hello, Andrew.</nowiki>

[11:59] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Hello</nowiki>

[11:59] Visitor Detector<nowiki>: First time visitor to your land: Judy Chestnut</nowiki>

[12:00] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: but that test will be done in a region with no other prims</nowiki>

[12:00] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Hello Andrew.</nowiki>

[12:00] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: just to be safe, heh</nowiki>

[12:00] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: 1.5 billion land impact - </nowiki>http://static.dyp.im/VmruOlYDsW/45de7a43277e5248ad0911c341aa4a84.png<nowiki> <--heres my 1.5 billion land impact test</nowiki>

[12:01] Simon Linden<nowiki>: well, let's see ... I can start with the release news, which is nice and simple since we're not updating anything until January</nowiki>

[12:01] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: How did that occur, Lucy?</nowiki>

[12:01] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: It's a huge figure.</nowiki>

[12:01] Simon Linden<nowiki>: There was a minor update put in the RC channels last week</nowiki>

[12:02] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I really can't explain how to do that, for a few reasons</nowiki>

[12:02] rcdsQueChatLog<nowiki>: Rex Cronon, you can read the log here:</nowiki>

http://rcds.nfshost.com/ques_view_chatLog.php?queOwner=llsl:Rex<nowiki>+Cronon&queName=chatLog&pg=1</nowiki>

[12:02] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Hello, Inara.</nowiki>

[12:02] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hi simon</nowiki>

[12:02] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: wow Lucie</nowiki>

[12:02] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: suddenly beacons</nowiki>

[12:02] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hi everybody</nowiki>

[12:02] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Spelled G R I E F E R</nowiki>

[12:02] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I think last week I mentioned that I had implemented llScaleByFactor() for uniform scaling of an entire linked set with one LSL call</nowiki>

[12:03] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Ohhhhhhh nifty</nowiki>

[12:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Andrew may have just lost his connection</nowiki>

[12:03] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: budget cuts, heh</nowiki>

[12:04] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: A sequester in SL too?</nowiki>

[12:04] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: He'll be back, and in greater numbers.</nowiki>

[12:04] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yep, he's re-logging</nowiki>

[12:04] MartinRJ<nowiki>: hello all</nowiki>

[12:04] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That may take a few minutes ...</nowiki>

[12:05] rcdsQueChatLog<nowiki>: MartinRJ Resident, you can read the log here:</nowiki>

http://rcds.nfshost.com/ques_view_chatLog.php?queOwner=llsl:Rex<nowiki>+Cronon&queName=chatLog&pg=1</nowiki>

[12:05] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: there r 2 many prims here...</nowiki>

[12:05] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hi martinrj</nowiki>

[12:05] Simon Linden<nowiki>: FWIW I recently implemented the OBJECT_STREAMING_COST option for avatars</nowiki>

[12:05] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: ooh nice</nowiki>

[12:05] Simon Linden<nowiki>: so that should be available on an RC next month</nowiki>

[12:05] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: can you also include taht for llGetObjectPrimCount() for agents, lol</nowiki>

[12:06] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: or</nowiki>

[12:06] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: I see a BAKER! :D</nowiki>

[12:06] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: keep it from capping at 1 for legacy prims and 2 for sculpts, heh</nowiki>

[12:06] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Hello, sorry about that. I crashed out or something...</nowiki>

[12:06] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: welcome to SL</nowiki>

[12:06] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[12:06] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hi andrew</nowiki>

[12:07] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: actually my network connection was working only one way...</nowiki>

[12:07] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: wb Andrew</nowiki>

[12:07] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I could chat and move, but I wasn't getting updates back.</nowiki>

[12:07] Baker Linden<nowiki>: I see a Kenny!</nowiki>

[12:07] Baker Linden<nowiki>: :)</nowiki>

[12:07] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I killed the two VPN's that I was running. I'm hoping it doesnt' happen again.</nowiki>

[12:07] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hi baker</nowiki>

[12:07] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Anyway... I was going to say...</nowiki>

[12:08] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: that Maestro tested the llScaleByFactor() stuff and found a few bugs which we fixed.</nowiki>

[12:08] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: And right now it looks good.</nowiki>

[12:08] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: does that take a viewer change to work with?</nowiki>

[12:08] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: also, what aditi region is it active on?</nowiki>

[12:08] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: A known bug is that llGetMaxScaleFactor() will test against the max prim sizes and linkability rules, but not Land Impact limits of the parcel</nowiki>

[12:09] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: It doesn't require a viewer change</nowiki>

[12:09] Simon Linden<nowiki>: it's not out yet, Lucy ... possibly later this week</nowiki>

[12:09] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: I has found bug when you build, some tome scale become 46.9999953 and not 47.00000</nowiki>

[12:09] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: awwww, dangle shinies and then pull them away</nowiki>

[12:09] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: in fact, I think I updated the server-side LSL syntax file so that Oz's server-side-syntax stuff will work</nowiki>

[12:10] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: *cough* Oz's</nowiki>

[12:10] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: ?</nowiki>

[12:10] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: which will also be put into the same RC in January.</nowiki>

[12:10] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Hi Rex!</nowiki>

[12:10] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Sorry Ima. I know there was some Residents working on that, but Oz did the server-side work.</nowiki>

[12:10] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: And I don't know who else was involved.</nowiki>

[12:10] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: (hint</nowiki>

[12:10] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: er (it was Ima)</nowiki>

[12:11] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: indeed, he also did a bit of viewer changed to make it easier ;-)</nowiki>

[12:11] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'll figure out what regions on aditi currently support llScaleByFactor()...</nowiki>

[12:11] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Yes, thanks Ima!</nowiki>

[12:11] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: I'm trying to track down a bug that snuck in recently</nowiki>

[12:11] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: and the most excellent Whirly pointed out ;-)</nowiki>

[12:12] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Sorry :D</nowiki>

[12:12] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Hrm... it looks like there are a fair number of regions on aditi that have the new code:</nowiki>

[12:12] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: glad you found it, I hadn't retried the region crossing after scripting since Oz's changes, which seem to have broken something</nowiki>

[12:12] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Boardman, Borrowdale, and Balance are three</nowiki>

[12:13] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Also Mayfair and Hawkshead</nowiki>

[12:13] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Ok table is open I think.</nowiki>

[12:13] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: syntax for those functions again?</nowiki>

[12:14] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: How do it go for Baker?</nowiki>

[12:14] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: llGetMinScaleFactor()) returns smallest possible float multiplicative scale factor for the object</nowiki>

[12:14] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Pretty good, working more on viewer side stuff now</nowiki>

[12:14] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: llGetMaxScaleFactor() returns the max multiplicative scale factor</nowiki>

[12:15] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: llScaleByFactor(float) returns TRUE if the scale succeeded</nowiki>

[12:15] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: ty</nowiki>

[12:15] Baker Linden<nowiki>: So now, when you enable the ban ability to a role, it wil automatically grant the "eject" and "remove roles" ability. That's been discussed before, but now it actually happens</nowiki>

[12:16] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: can we also scle only along one axis?</nowiki>

[12:16] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: no Rex</nowiki>

[12:16] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: also scale*</nowiki>

[12:16] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: ok</nowiki>

[12:16] Baker Linden<nowiki>: I only started the viewer-side changes this week</nowiki>

[12:16] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Neat</nowiki>

[12:16] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: Sorry to interrupt....Has anyone found a recent (roughly the last 3 weeks) bug where prims suddenly end up in Lost & found, or worse just disappear, for no reason whatsoever?</nowiki>

[12:16] Baker Linden<nowiki>: but you won't be able to disallow those two roles until you disable the ban ability</nowiki>

[12:16] Baker Linden<nowiki>: I'm doing this so bans actually work properly</nowiki>

[12:17] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Dante, I haven't heard of such a bug. You've had this happen to you?</nowiki>

[12:17] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I know of one bug that would cause it but its a rarity</nowiki>

[12:17] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: I am lead scripter for Dwarfins Breedables, and have also heard of this happening with many other breedables (since that's my area of interest)</nowiki>

[12:17] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Also, I've added to the server code that will automatically eject a member, as long as the ejector has both the "eject" and "remove roles" abilities</nowiki>

[12:17] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: this is happening to all of our users, even my test dwarfins</nowiki>

[12:17] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Great.</nowiki>

[12:18] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: its crushing us lol</nowiki>

[12:18] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: And which happens most often? They show up in Lost and Found? or they disappear completely?</nowiki>

[12:18] Baker Linden<nowiki>: so if you have both of those abilities, you will no longer have to remove all the roles from someone and then eject. that is now automated</nowiki>

[12:18] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: personally i've had 10% go to L&F, 10% end up somewhere else on the sim (which they're not programmed to do) and the rest just poof</nowiki>

[12:18] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7788<nowiki> <--with this bug, if there are any limbo prims on the parcel and you rez prims that make up the difference in availabel prims and then select those limbo prims or the region restarts, the newly rezzed prims will be autoreturned</nowiki>

[12:19] Baker Linden<nowiki>: of course, in it's current state, it will eject regardless of the two roles... which I'm working on fixing now :) Somewhere down the line I did something wrong....</nowiki>

[12:19] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: my users get a mixture of all of the above as well</nowiki>

[12:19] Simon Linden<nowiki>: L&F might just be a symptom if they're somehow moving around and then getting returned</nowiki>

[12:19] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Dante, how easy is it to reproduce for you?</nowiki>

[12:19] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: There were reports of the physics rubberbanding just prior to being returned, others have said they were just standing there & poofed</nowiki>

[12:20] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: I have a test block setup on my work sim, I can get them to do it over a day's time</nowiki>

[12:20] Theresa Tennyson<nowiki>: My KittyCat ends up on lots she isn't allowed on fairly frequently and gets returned.</nowiki>

[12:20] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: maybe there is a scripted object(s) that changes LI at random intervals and that forces everything newer to be returned?</nowiki>

[12:20] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: That's an interesting theory Rex.</nowiki>

[12:20] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: Let me clarify, the code was rock solid for the last year, never had this issue, right after rollout 3 weeks ago it all went to hell and i didnt change code</nowiki>

[12:21] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yeah, most breedables can turn physical when movign and li can ramp up</nowiki>

[12:21] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: forcing them to autoreturn</nowiki>

[12:21] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: if parcel prims are overflowed</nowiki>

[12:21] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Dante, what specific region broke 3 weeks ago?</nowiki>

[12:21] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'm wondering if it was an RC rollout or a main channel one.</nowiki>

[12:21] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: If you're referring to sim server types, we've seen it happen on standard RC and magnum</nowiki>

[12:22] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I think 3 weeks ago we didn't roll anything ... the week before and after we did</nowiki>

[12:22] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Yes, but name a region where it suddently started happening 3 weeks ago.</nowiki>

[12:22] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: There are tons, but my personal one is named Dwarfins Rock</nowiki>

[12:23] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Andrew disconnected again :P</nowiki>

[12:23] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: ok</nowiki>

[12:23] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: oops, there goes Andrew again</nowiki>

[12:23] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki> waves "adieu" and wishes you all a happy holiday, but rl tiem for me</nowiki>

[12:23] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: take care Adam</nowiki>

[12:23] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: oh, and happy birthday Baker too</nowiki>

[12:23] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc</nowiki>

[12:24] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: I think he needs warmer mesh clothes.</nowiki>

[12:24] Simon Linden<nowiki>: So now if you set them up, over the course of a day one might disappear or be returned?</nowiki>

[12:24] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: correct</nowiki>

[12:24] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Do you ever get one of the notices saying your object has been returned to you?</nowiki>

[12:24] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: we do the due diligence of making sure they're set to the correct group of course, but it happens to mine as well</nowiki>

[12:24] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: no, never</nowiki>

[12:25] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: we do not use the Die At Edge code either</nowiki>

[12:25] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Ok I'm back. I guess I'm going to lose connection every 15 min or so.</nowiki>

[12:26] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: In Beta grid has my things go away when autorerutn did kick in, not in trash and not in Lost and Found, but here has I not seen it yet</nowiki>

[12:26] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: me too</nowiki>

[12:26] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: some more sim names coming in from my group - Rossavik, Hiddn Sanctuary, Hawthorn Estate, Bull Island</nowiki>

[12:26] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: wb</nowiki>

[12:26] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: wb Andrew</nowiki>

[12:26] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: I've been loosing connectivity all day today.</nowiki>

[12:26] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Dwarfins Rock is on the main channel</nowiki>

[12:26] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: You need warmer mesh clothes, it is the could thet kicks you out Andrew</nowiki>

[12:26] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: correct Andrew</nowiki>

[12:27] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: Another sim - Zen Tranquility - user states they're in Lost & found every day they login</nowiki>

[12:27] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Hmm, the main channel got an update on 11/19 and next on 12/3</nowiki>

[12:27] Judy Chestnut<nowiki>: Devyne is another sim and Zegia</nowiki>

[12:27] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: Judy, it started 2 weeks ago or 3?</nowiki>

[12:28] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: i was thinking 3</nowiki>

[12:28] Judy Chestnut<nowiki>: I believe it was 2</nowiki>

[12:28] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: k</nowiki>

[12:28] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Good, because it looks like 3 weeks ago we didn't update that channel.</nowiki>

[12:28] Simon Linden<nowiki>: 2 makes more sense considering what was changed</nowiki>

[12:28] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Um, I've noticed some odd behaviour with the marketplace and it's started a few days ago. When I make a number of purchases, next time I start shopping, the old purchases are still in my cart.</nowiki>

[12:28] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: I think it was the same rollout as the bug fix for vehicles?</nowiki>

[12:28] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: I think it started on Thursday or Wednesday.</nowiki>

[12:29] Judy Chestnut<nowiki>: yes I beleive it was that week Dante</nowiki>

[12:29] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Mona - it would be good to file a BUG on that. Nobody here works on the web side of things but it'll get sorted and passed their way</nowiki>

[12:29] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: ok.</nowiki>

[12:29] Judy Chestnut<nowiki>: it's a mix of them being returned to lost and found which I believe happens because they are going out of their range and hitting the edge of the sim or border of land</nowiki>

[12:29] Judy Chestnut<nowiki>: a mix of that and just disappearing altogether</nowiki>

[12:29] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: yes</nowiki>

[12:30] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: I has to run, take care and have fun.</nowiki>

[12:30] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: Take care Kenny</nowiki>

[12:30] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc</nowiki>

[12:30] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Simon and I were just looking at what changed in that update.</nowiki>

[12:31] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I don't see any obvious smoking gun that would affect returns or movement that might lead to a return</nowiki>

[12:31] Theresa Tennyson<nowiki>: Are these all stand-alone regions or do some of them have neighbors?</nowiki>

[12:31] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: Any change to the physics code itself?</nowiki>

[12:31] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Good question.</nowiki>

[12:31] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: they're a mix Theresa</nowiki>

[12:31] Simon Linden<nowiki>: No, there haven't been changes to physics in a while</nowiki>

[12:31] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: Becaue we've all seen moving prims rubber band far off and then snap back, I assumed that was physics, now they fly off and dont come back</nowiki>

[12:32] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: could it be prims that were counting as sat on that upon the new code got returned for reasons related to autoreturn?</nowiki>

[12:32] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: No, rubberbanding could actually be caused by the "interestlist" -- delayed object updates basically</nowiki>

[12:32] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: ie, has it happened in the last few days</nowiki>

[12:32] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: or lost updates (packet loss)</nowiki>

[12:32] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: well hmm Lucy, we do employ a SitTarget() in the code</nowiki>

[12:32] Judy Chestnut<nowiki>: yes it has Lucy</nowiki>

[12:33] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: i only use it to automatically throw poeple back off though</nowiki>

[12:33] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: not sure if the other breedables experiencing this have the same code tho</nowiki>

[12:33] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and it happens during teh middle of a server's uptime, not necessarily after a restart?</nowiki>

[12:33] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: correct</nowiki>

[12:34] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: all day , every day</nowiki>

[12:34] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Dante, is it easy to have Dwarfins that work on the Beta grid? or is their special registration code that prevents migration to an alternate grid?</nowiki>

[12:34] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: when you rez the animals from L&F in a no-script parcel are they physical?</nowiki>

[12:34] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: er... or is there...</nowiki>

[12:34] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: as long as the LSL code base is consistently the same and there is access to outside servers, yes it can be done</nowiki>

[12:35] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: by god I'll make it work if needed lol</nowiki>

[12:35] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The sit-counting code typically fails the other way around ... things are improperly counted as having an AV on them, and thus avoid returns.</nowiki>

[12:35] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'm thinking that we'd have to have some Dwarfins in a custom simulator that is instrumented to log special info when things get deleted</nowiki>

[12:36] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: that would be awesome</nowiki>

[12:36] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: so we can watch the logs for when and why Dwarfins go missing, but to do that we'd have to run them on the Beta grid</nowiki>

[12:36] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: I'm game</nowiki>

[12:36] Theresa Tennyson<nowiki>: Ooo, like those sleep studies...</nowiki>

[12:36] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: LOL Yes!</nowiki>

[12:36] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: what r Dwarfins?</nowiki>

[12:36] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Dante - do you know if Dwarfkins will work normally on the Aditi test grid?</nowiki>

[12:36] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: I've never tried Simon, not sure</nowiki>

[12:36] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Dwarfins? Dwarfkins?</nowiki>

[12:36] Judy Chestnut<nowiki>: dwarfins</nowiki>

[12:36] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: there's no K lol</nowiki>

[12:36] Simon Linden<nowiki>: my typo</nowiki>

[12:37] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: Rex - www.dwarfins.com for your info :)</nowiki>

[12:37] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: there's a lot of breedable haters out there</nowiki>

[12:37] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: nobody AR'd my dwarfins on my private sim, I can say that for certain</nowiki>

[12:37] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: thanks</nowiki>

[12:37] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That grid has some of the networking functions blocked off ... http requests, for one. If you're relying on them phoning home like that, it'll affect your code</nowiki>

[12:37] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: well, there's kinda reason for that...</nowiki>

[12:37] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: yes it will, they wont even load up</nowiki>

[12:37] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Tell you what Dante, why don't we just clone Dwarfins Rock to the beta grid and you can test your Dwarfins there</nowiki>

[12:37] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: early brredables were notoriously harsh on sims</nowiki>

[12:37] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: I'd love that</nowiki>

[12:38] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That's a good start, we'll see how they run</nowiki>

[12:38] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: and if we can get them to mysteriously vanish (i.e. the problem reproduces) then we'll try to dig a bit deeper.</nowiki>

[12:38] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: Excellent, let me know what my next steps are</nowiki>

[12:38] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'll clone the region</nowiki>

[12:38] Theresa Tennyson<nowiki>: Can you unblock the connections to Dwarfin Central for that region?</nowiki>

[12:38] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: and then ping you later today when it is up.</nowiki>

[12:39] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: Ok great</nowiki>

[12:39] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: Sorry to take over the meeting like this, we're really at our wits end</nowiki>

[12:39] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Then when you have working Dwarfins and have seen one go missing then send IM/email to Simon</nowiki>

[12:39] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: Simon could you IM me your email please?</nowiki>

[12:40] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: I dunno if this's come up yet, but it did yesterday at the content creation meeting... what is the server sending to the viewer and vice versa with regards to materials settings?</nowiki>

[12:40] MartinRJ<nowiki>: lindens always have firstname@lindenlab.com</nowiki>

[12:40] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I'd have to dig into code for that, Tiberious</nowiki>

[12:40] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Yeah, I don't know the answer offhand.</nowiki>

[12:40] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: ty all for sitting through my rant :)</nowiki>

[12:41] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: see, it came up in regards to getting scriptable materials settings</nowiki>

[12:41] Simon Linden<nowiki>: but probably a few asset ids and meta data just like other textures</nowiki>

[12:41] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I was looking into that earlier but got side-tracked by other things, like the busted profile feel snapshot upload</nowiki>

[12:42] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: Speaking of the materials... Why isn't it mentioned anywhere that Alpha masking has some form of shape recognition? (and it doesn't mask per pixel, at least not in firestorm)</nowiki>

[12:42] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Yeah, speaking of what Tiberious mentioned... What's the outlook on LSL-controlled normal & specular maps?</nowiki>

[12:42] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: someone buy Andrew a new router lol</nowiki>

[12:42] Simon Linden<nowiki>: He's sitting at the desk next to me</nowiki>

[12:43] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: shape recognition?</nowiki>

[12:43] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: simon is punking him by pulling his network cable when he's not looking. :)</nowiki>

[12:43] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I'm beginning to suspect the network cable ... we're plugged into the same local switch</nowiki>

[12:43] Baker Linden<nowiki>: That's why Simon. He's at my desk :P I put a curse on that internet cable to only behave with me</nowiki>

[12:43] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: a PRIM_NORMAL and a PRIM_SPECULAR parameter could work well.</nowiki>

[12:43] Simon Linden<nowiki>: ah hah!</nowiki>

[12:43] Baker Linden<nowiki>: I thought I made an exception for Andrew though... looks like I can't curse things well either</nowiki>

[12:43] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: but what about alpha settings for the diffuse texture?</nowiki>

[12:44] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Oh, is this your desk Baker? The one with three monitors and no one sitting there?</nowiki>

[12:44] Baker Linden<nowiki>: haha yeah</nowiki>

[12:44] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: shots fired</nowiki>

[12:44] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: somebody must have used andrews computer to look at bad sites;)</nowiki>

[12:44] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: ah...</nowiki>

[12:44] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Ok I've got an item to talk about. And I should get it started before I lose connection again...</nowiki>

[12:45] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: This is going to be my last User Group meeting as a Linden: I've decided to leave LL and pursue other things.</nowiki>

[12:45] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Oh.</nowiki>

[12:45] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: awww no</nowiki>

[12:45] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: awwww</nowiki>

[12:45] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: No..</nowiki>

[12:45] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: if you look at this font on this cube and toggle Automatic Alpha Masking (Non-deferred) on and off you can see what happens to this font</nowiki>

[12:45] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: What fun things?</nowiki>

[12:45] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: The sky is falling - even more.</nowiki>

[12:45] MartinRJ<nowiki>: oh?</nowiki>

[12:46] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Alas, it is true. Very sad, but also a happy. It is a weird mix.</nowiki>

[12:46] Theresa Tennyson<nowiki>: Good bye, Andrew, and thank you!</nowiki>

[12:46] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Thank you for all you've done, Andrew.</nowiki>

[12:46] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: ditto</nowiki>

[12:46] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I've really enjoyed these User Group meetings.</nowiki>

[12:46] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: Omg Andrew :(</nowiki>

[12:46] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Thank you, Andrew</nowiki>

[12:46] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Which is why I've been showing up all these years.</nowiki>

[12:46] MartinRJ<nowiki>: I'm very sad to hear that.</nowiki>

[12:46] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: Now we have to nail Baker to the floor, so he doesn't go away too :((</nowiki>

[12:46] Inara Pey<nowiki>: You'll be sorely missed, Andrew.</nowiki>

[12:46] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: erf...</nowiki>

[12:47] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Andrew, can you say where you will be going and what you will be doing?</nowiki>

[12:47] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Don't worry, I'm way too sad to go anywhere</nowiki>

[12:47] Inara Pey<nowiki>: But good luck for the future and very best wishes.</nowiki>

[12:47] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: good luck to u andrew</nowiki>

[12:47] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: Andrew, you said as a Linden, will you still be involved in SL as a Resident?</nowiki>

[12:47] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Good luck in your new job, Andrew.</nowiki>

[12:47] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Actually Ima, I'm not really an active SL resident...</nowiki>

[12:47] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: I just hope it's not cloudparty. booo!</nowiki>

[12:47] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: you better impress upon your successor to make sure to get to these meetings... can't be losing any more cool Lindens like you, only to get more that stay away from us Residents</nowiki>

[12:47] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I've got an alt, but I don't really use it, and I don't typically login to SL for fun</nowiki>

[12:48] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: The main reason I don't play in SL is that when I do I typically remembrer all the bugs that I should be working on.</nowiki>

[12:48] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[12:48] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Or features, as the case may be.</nowiki>

[12:48] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: maybe you will like logging on better, when it's all someone elses problem?</nowiki>

[12:48] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: But, perhaps I'll learn to play in SL without my admin powers.</nowiki>

[12:48] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: :3</nowiki>

[12:48] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: now u can relax. u no longer will have to remember them:)</nowiki>

[12:48] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Exactly Lexbot.</nowiki>

[12:48] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: it can be fun, if not frustrating sometimes</nowiki>

[12:49] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: Simon and Andrew while this meeting: </nowiki>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWIPZvwcnX8

[12:49] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: :)</nowiki>

[12:49] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: Also, you know everything from the inside, so maybe you can create some coolness, while navigating around the bugs easily</nowiki>

[12:50] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Ha Lexbot. To tell the truth, I don't know the SL UI very well -- I don't use many of the features.</nowiki>

[12:50] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: Andrew, can you say what/where you're moving on top?</nowiki>

[12:50] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: most of the awesome stuff comes from Residents who refuse to take 'no' from the server as an answer >:3</nowiki>

[12:50] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: when is your last day here andrew?</nowiki>

[12:50] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: on to</nowiki>

[12:50] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'm currently connected with an Intel-Accelerated graphics laptop on its lowest graphics settings!</nowiki>

[12:50] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Rex, my last day is Thursday.</nowiki>

[12:51] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: wow. u r leaving so fast.</nowiki>

[12:51] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Andrew, can you say where you will be going and what you will be doing?</nowiki>

[12:51] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I won't be able to personally say goodbye to everyone I met here in User Group. Too many poeple.</nowiki>

[12:52] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: what is that thing that philip is working on? high definition or something like that:)</nowiki>

[12:53] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Yes Rex, I'm going to join Philip and his new project. Not because I don't love SL or am not excited about what LL is working on</nowiki>

[12:53] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but because I'm ready for a change, and I really like working with Philip.</nowiki>

[12:53] MartinRJ<nowiki>: Goodbye, Andrew Linden, wish you all the best!</nowiki>

[12:53] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: :)</nowiki>

[12:53] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: This disturbs me a lot. We keep losing all of the visionaries who made this place possible.....first with the ending of office hours....than then Lindens at concierge estate services you could drop in on if you had an issue with your region.....the whole thing has turned from wonderland to a corporate money printer if you ask me. :(</nowiki>

[12:54] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: AFAIK, LL is an investor in HighFidelity.</nowiki>

[12:54] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: yeah... that's why I said make sure your successor comes to these groups</nowiki>

[12:55] Simon Linden<nowiki>: It's changed, yes, but there are still a lot of people working on it and trying to make it better, and a lot of people enjoying it.</nowiki>

[12:55] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: last thing we need are more Lindens sheltering themselves from the Residents...</nowiki>

[12:55] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I don't think there will be a "successor" to Andrew</nowiki>

[12:56] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: SL is not the black hole taking over all people and not loosing them back. What is important, when people can go to new projects and take experience out off SL than it is escellent.</nowiki>

[12:56] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: You all better get your collectable andrew linden bear while supplies last then. :)</nowiki>

[12:56] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: next we know all lindens move over to high fidelity:)</nowiki>

[12:56] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Uh... I don't think I fall into a "visionary" category. I'm more of a worker-bee who likes to help. Which is why I've stuck around so long.</nowiki>

[12:57] MartinRJ<nowiki>: btw. it turns out</nowiki>

[12:57] MartinRJ<nowiki>: that the Interesting RC viewer works just fine</nowiki>

[12:57] MartinRJ<nowiki>: it was my broken harddrive which caused the crashes for me:P</nowiki>

[12:57] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Yay! Bao Linden fixed most of the bugs in the interesting viewer.</nowiki>

[12:58] Theresa Tennyson<nowiki>: If I had a choice between making something new and maintaining something old while listening to constant BAWWWWW.....</nowiki>

[12:58] MartinRJ<nowiki>: it's awesome! Thank you so much for all the work!</nowiki>

[12:58] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: was nice having u as a linden here andrew:)</nowiki>

[12:59] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Fixing the interestlist was one of the things I definitely wanted to get done before I left.</nowiki>

[12:59] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: yes Andrew, i also wish you success with new projects and being helpful, and get a reward for it as much as you wish to :)</nowiki>

[12:59] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Thank you all.</nowiki>

[12:59] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: what they said.... and Merry Christmas ;-)</nowiki>

[12:59] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Thank you, Andrew.</nowiki>

[12:59] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Best wishes to you Andrew.</nowiki>

[12:59] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: Happy Holidays and good luck on your new venture Andrew</nowiki>

[13:00] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Merry Christmas, Andrew, and may everything work out well for you in the future.</nowiki>

[13:00] Andrew Linden<nowiki> is going to lose connection any minute...</nowiki>

[13:00] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: And, again, thank you very much.</nowiki>

[13:00] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[13:00] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: happy holidays 2 u andrew:)</nowiki>

[13:00] MartinRJ<nowiki>: hehe</nowiki>

[13:00] Simon Linden<nowiki> stops wiggling the cable</nowiki>

[13:00] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Ha!</nowiki>

[13:00] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: Simon, give Andrew a real life hug for us please</nowiki>

[13:01] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Thank you Andrew for ALL your work.</nowiki>

[13:01] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Ok everyone. I'll see you around. I'll have to dust off my alt.</nowiki>

[13:01] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Thanks everyone for coming this week ... the next user group will be January 7th due to the holidays</nowiki>

[13:01] Dante Spectre<nowiki>: Cheers</nowiki>

[13:01] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: See everyone next year. :)</nowiki>

[13:01] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I hope everyone has a happy and lag-free holidays</nowiki>

[13:01] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Next year!</nowiki>

[13:01] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: Thank you for telling us, too</nowiki>

[13:01] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: You'll recognize my alt by its creation date. Some date before we even launched in 2003.</nowiki>

[13:01] MartinRJ<nowiki>: Good luck, and merry christmas, everyone!</nowiki>

[13:01] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Thanks Lindens! See you people next year!</nowiki>

[13:01] Judy Chestnut<nowiki>: thanks</nowiki>

[13:02] Judy Chestnut<nowiki>: bye</nowiki>

[13:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: lol - I stood up and fell through the floor.</nowiki>

[13:02] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: what is name of your alt</nowiki>

[13:02] MartinRJ<nowiki>: that's some really sad news :/</nowiki>

[13:02] Theresa Tennyson<nowiki>: Good bye, everyone!</nowiki>

[13:02] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: have good time and happy holidays all and all Lindens :) see you all in the new year</nowiki>

[13:02] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: happy new year, christmas and holidays to everybody</nowiki>



 
[[Simulator_User_Group]]
{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.12.10|Prev 2013.12.10]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.12.24|Next 2013.12.24]]
|}

Simulator User Group

2013-12-18T00:34:20Z

Andrew Linden:

{{User Group Page
|purpose=
The Server User Group exists to provide an opportunity for discussion about server technology, annoying bugs, and feature ideas.
|date-time=
* Tuesdays 12:00-13:00 (general) http://slurl.com/secondlife/Denby/220/41/33,
Meetings are
|location= '''Denby/225/25/25'''
|agenda=
* LL developer news
* Open discussion

== News ==

|team=
* [[User:Andrew Linden|Andrew Linden]]
* [[User:Simon Linden|Simon Linden]]
* [[User:Kelly Linden|Kelly Linden]]
* [[User:Baker Linden|Baker Linden]]
}}

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[[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2012]]

[[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2011]]

Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.10.29

2013-10-29T20:13:53Z

Andrew Linden: Created page with "Simulator_User_Group {| | Prev 2013.10.22 | Next 2013.11.05 |} == List of Spe…"

[[Simulator_User_Group]]
{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.10.22|Prev 2013.10.22]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.11.05|Next 2013.11.05]]
|}

== List of Speakers ==
{|
|ac14 Hutson
|Andrew Linden
|ANSI Soderstrom
|-
|Baker Linden
|Duckie Dickins
|Hexapoda
|-
|Inara Pey
|Jenna Felton
|Jonathan Yap
|-
|Lexbot Sinister
|Lucia Nightfire
|MartinRJ Fayray
|-
|Mona Eberhardt
|Motor Loon
|Qie Niangao
|-
|Rex Cronon
|Simon Linden
|Siwo
|-
|TankMaster Finesmith
|Whirly Fizzle
|Yuzuru Jewell
|}

== Transcript ==
[11:59] Baker Linden<nowiki>: I really wanted to make a mesh one</nowiki>

[11:59] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Hello, Andrew.</nowiki>

[11:59] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: hello everone</nowiki>

[11:59] Baker Linden<nowiki>: I just need to re-learn Maya, or figure out Blender</nowiki>

[12:00] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: Andrew... LInden Bear me. :)</nowiki>

[12:00] Hexapoda<nowiki>: Can I have Andrews bear?</nowiki>

[12:00] Baker Linden<nowiki>: If you find it in the mainland!</nowiki>

[12:00] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: its easy once u fix group banning:)</nowiki>

[12:00] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: thanks!</nowiki>

[12:00] rcdsQueChatLog<nowiki>: Rex Cronon, you can read the log here:</nowiki>

http://rcds.nfshost.com/ques_view_chatLog.php?queOwner=llsl:Rex<nowiki>+Cronon&queName=chatLog&pg=1</nowiki>

[12:00] Baker Linden<nowiki> now sends everyone on a wild goose chase through the mainland</nowiki>

[12:00] Meeter<nowiki>: Welcome to the Server User Group</nowiki>

[12:01] Hexapoda<nowiki>: Thank you Mr Andrew.</nowiki>

[12:01] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hello andrew</nowiki>

[12:01] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Thank you, Rex.</nowiki>

[12:01] Baker Linden<nowiki>: don't actually look for Andrew's bear in the mainland</nowiki>

[12:01] Baker Linden<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[12:01] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: I will need to take a photo of it...it's not on the wiki with the other linden bears</nowiki>

[12:01] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Hello, Simon.</nowiki>

[12:01] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Hi everyone</nowiki>

[12:02] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hi simon</nowiki>

[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Let' see ... I can get going on the simulator release news</nowiki>

[12:02] Inara Pey<nowiki>: Hi, Simon, Andrew.</nowiki>

[12:02] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Apparently not a big week for deployments, per </nowiki>http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploy-for-the-week-of-2013-10-28/td-p/2292251

[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: We updated the RC channels this morning with a new maintenance release</nowiki>

[12:02] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Where did you get Simon bear, Hexapoda?</nowiki>

[12:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yep, it's not a big one this week ... just a few fixes</nowiki>

[12:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: btw, if you want my bear, click the one on the railing and he'll get you started on a hunt</nowiki>

[12:03] Baker Linden<nowiki>: You gotta work for Simon's bear!</nowiki>

[12:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: it takes about 15 minutes or so ... more or less depending on how fast you go, of course</nowiki>

[12:04] Simon Linden<nowiki>: There was a planned outage tomorrow morning about the time we normally do the RC updates ... I don't know the details but it was some database maintenance work</nowiki>

[12:04] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I _believe_ that's been postponed until next week, but check the grid status or blog for the real details</nowiki>

[12:05] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: outage with what service?</nowiki>

[12:05] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That's it for server news ... Andrew, do you have anything?</nowiki>

[12:05] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Second Life ... I think logins were going to be blocked for about an hour</nowiki>

[12:06] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[12:06] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: the main database is going to get some maintenance -- we don't want to be deploying new sever code at the same time</nowiki>

[12:06] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I don't have much news... I'm currently working on some anti-grief stuff</nowiki>

[12:06] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: like?</nowiki>

[12:06] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i guess i was lucky i got in</nowiki>

[12:06] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but don't want to go into details</nowiki>

[12:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: </nowiki>http://status.secondlifegrid.net/2013/10/28/post2091/

[12:06] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: heh</nowiki>

[12:07] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: and I don't really want to brainstorm on other anti-grief work... I've done that and already have a big list</nowiki>

[12:07] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: come on andrew. do say that u r "fixing" the bomb:)</nowiki>

[12:07] Simon Linden<nowiki>: lol yes ... my "In Box" is pretty full as well</nowiki>

[12:07] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: heh, I wish</nowiki>

[12:07] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: vague details are: some new grief modes that attack estate managers -- working on fixes for those</nowiki>

[12:08] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I think I have an idea on those, heh</nowiki>

[12:08] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: and was thinking about raising the arms race against landbots -- still in the planning/discovery phase on that</nowiki>

[12:08] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: those pesky griefers... someone needs to wrangle them up and put them to work reporting exploits. :)</nowiki>

[12:08] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: exploit bounties...works for google. :)</nowiki>

[12:09] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I'll be glad when you work on the asset request blocking exploit thats blowing up</nowiki>

[12:09] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Group Ban stuff is still in internal testing. I'm touching a lot of systems, and the QA guys (Caleb and Maestro) and I are treading carefully to make sure the deploy will go as smoothly as possible.</nowiki>

[12:09] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: oh yeah, and there was a sim-bomb that attracted my attention -- was going to try to investigate that one and look for ways to fix it.</nowiki>

[12:09] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: as it no longer requires the inital reported vector</nowiki>

[12:09] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: landbots? like... the bots that buy-up land? They're still active enough to warrant an arms race? Or something else?</nowiki>

[12:10] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: its actually not a bad idea to let people grief servers, but this would be restricted on the beta grid or a grief continent :)</nowiki>

[12:10] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: that sounds like the sim-bomb I'm talking about, Lucia</nowiki>

[12:10] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: so that thing evolved</nowiki>

[12:10] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: yes Qie, those land bots</nowiki>

[12:10] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: there are different versions of that now being used by throwaway accounts</nowiki>

[12:10] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: no rezzing necessary</nowiki>

[12:10] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: interesting. I thought those were mostly gone already. Just... cuz not that much buying and selling of Mainland anymore.</nowiki>

[12:10] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: instant region ruin in less than a second and move on to the nexy</nowiki>

[12:11] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: *next</nowiki>

[12:11] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I think the table is open.</nowiki>

[12:11] Siwo<nowiki>: isn't it that "spam-rez" thing?</nowiki>

[12:12] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: rezzing is only one method you can use</nowiki>

[12:12] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I have an idea about that rez attack I'm going to follow up with Kelly and Andrew ... but I'm just going to be vague about it here :P</nowiki>

[12:12] Siwo<nowiki>: I mean, trying to rez in no-rez area... many times a second</nowiki>

[12:12] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: thats another</nowiki>

[12:13] ac14 Hutson<nowiki>: Id like to ask about getting a llLinkPlaySound llLinkStopSound and llLinkLoopSound function. ( i cant log into the wiki to edit the user group age if we are supposed to post there)</nowiki>

[12:13] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: It's probably been brought up before and I just missed it somewhere along the line, but are sculpts getting a lower priority when rezzing? It seems these days that sculpted objects are the last thing that rez for me.</nowiki>

[12:13] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Hrm... I wonder if we'd be able to fit some ll*Sound work into the mix.</nowiki>

[12:14] Motor Loon<nowiki>: yeah we were talking about llLinkPlaySound etc. at Nyx's meeting yesterday, he mentioned he'd talk with one of you guys</nowiki>

[12:14] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: We haven't updated sound features in a while.</nowiki>

[12:14] Simon Linden<nowiki>: fwiw there was something going on with the web-site side of things this morning so that stuff isn't working now</nowiki>

[12:14] Motor Loon<nowiki>: It'd be an awesome feature for many of us °͜°</nowiki>

[12:14] ac14 Hutson<nowiki>: adjustable sound frequency would be a godsend :P</nowiki>

[12:14] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: u want to make a buzzer ac14?</nowiki>

[12:14] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: I was going through old issues the other day and came across one that requested a sound be played when a region restart notice arrives; that is easy to do in the viewer but would need a new sound added to the library</nowiki>

[12:15] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: "adjustable sound frequency"? you mean like llBeep(hz, duration)?</nowiki>

[12:15] ac14 Hutson<nowiki>: make vehicles. and having one looping sound for the engine instead of a bunch of sound clips that fail to play sometimes would be much nicer</nowiki>

[12:15] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: If you're looking at anti griff stuff, being able to stop the objects that cause everyones attachment scripts to set to a not running state as soon as they enter the region where the griff objects is rezzed would be nice to have fixed. Maestro has a sim state backed up from bug island where one of those objects was active.</nowiki>

[12:15] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: If your attachments are no mod... they are permanantly broken</nowiki>

[12:15] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: yes that one Whirly.</nowiki>

[12:15] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: perhaps each script command that makes a communication with the sim and other services should have a kind of energy needed for the command. And an avatar should have a limited energy per second value. If scripts in the attachment eschause that limit, thei are slowed down by pushing down the events per second value of the attached scripts</nowiki>

[12:15] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: hi everyone</nowiki>

[12:15] ac14 Hutson<nowiki>: i mean like llAdjustSoundFrequency. meaning it changes the pitch of the currently palying sound</nowiki>

[12:15] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: thats another problem , Whirls, lol although mroe rare</nowiki>

[12:15] Baker Linden<nowiki>: ac14, Do you mean being able to adjust the pitch of the sound?</nowiki>

[12:15] Baker Linden<nowiki>: yeah</nowiki>

[12:15] Baker Linden<nowiki>: ok</nowiki>

[12:16] Baker Linden<nowiki>: so when you accelerate in a vehicle, the engine loop sound pitches up appropriately?</nowiki>

[12:16] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: whirly. that is the bomb u r talking about:)</nowiki>

[12:16] ac14 Hutson<nowiki>: yeah</nowiki>

[12:16] Motor Loon<nowiki>: Being able to adjust the "playing speed" of a loopsound would certainly be awesome, but I'd deff. settle for new calls that trigger attached sounds or loopsounds in another prim of the linkset °͜°</nowiki>

[12:16] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: no, Rex, thats something worse</nowiki>

[12:17] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: the llLink*Sound() functions would definitely win for vehicles.</nowiki>

[12:17] Motor Loon<nowiki>: Very much so</nowiki>

[12:17] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hi mona</nowiki>

[12:17] ac14 Hutson<nowiki>: right now using a ton of sounds that always need to be preloaded is a bit silly</nowiki>

[12:17] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: script energy budgets don't work very well... unintuitive, but throttles would be nice yes</nowiki>

[12:17] Simon Linden<nowiki>: What's the big win there, Motor? I mean, do you end up with less scripts to put the sound in the right spot?</nowiki>

[12:17] Motor Loon<nowiki>: Save a crapload of scripts in some of my builds-in-progress °͜°</nowiki>

[12:17] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: re the sound feature... </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-3904<nowiki> ([Feature Request] llLinkPlaySound ) and </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-1439<nowiki> (Feature Request: llPlaySoundOnLink)</nowiki>

[12:18] Motor Loon<nowiki>: yes Simon... and also I often need to be able to play several attached sounds at the same time... so I now need extra scripts in other linkprims to do this.</nowiki>

[12:18] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Sounds are practically the last place we need to have mutliple script assets in a linkset.</nowiki>

[12:18] ac14 Hutson<nowiki>: simon. right now i have vehicles that need to paly engine sounds. tire slipping. the wheel noise and 3 sets of sirens at once. it has enough prims to paly all of them but some require a script for the sound functions only</nowiki>

[12:19] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: I think that these are maybe not objects, but it happens when the lsl vm is in a bad state, but I could be wrong, Whirly</nowiki>

[12:19] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: (and vehicles are like the worst things to clutter up with multiple scripts)</nowiki>

[12:19] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: This linkset sound thing was on agenda :)</nowiki>

[12:19] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: Feature Request : Please make the Prim-Collision-Sound to PrimProperty, its not good for a less lag expierence if people have to put a script in EACH Prim (and keep it there) for a new collision sound (instead of rezzing a copy of a prim with a already choosen sound). A Script will Reserve 64kb Memory on the Server, even if poeple compile it not to MONO, there is also a need about 16kb to just set a new Collision Sound (which has only 32Bytes). ANSI Soderstrom</nowiki>

[12:19] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: (the broken scripts in no mod attachments)</nowiki>

[12:19] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: (</nowiki>http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Server/Sim/Scripting_User_Group<nowiki>)</nowiki>

[12:19] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: I second Jenna</nowiki>

[12:19] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: does collision sound even work anymore?</nowiki>

[12:19] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: the collision sound should be prim property</nowiki>

[12:19] ac14 Hutson<nowiki>: oh yeah that also brings into the prom collision sound being a property of the prim instead of the script. right now you HAVE to have scripts in teh wheels or else the car goes tink tink tink down the road</nowiki>

[12:20] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: yes, collision sound shall be prim property</nowiki>

[12:20] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: sorry wanted not interrupt. Just the discussion remembered on that agenda</nowiki>

[12:20] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: its a pain to put a 64k script to get a 32Byte Sound</nowiki>

[12:20] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: in EACH prim</nowiki>

[12:20] Simon Linden<nowiki>: ok -- and if you don't play those on the linked prim ... what's the loss? Stereo positioning?</nowiki>

[12:20] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: I was just searching for that Jira, Jenna lol</nowiki>

[12:21] ac14 Hutson<nowiki>: simon you can only play one sound per prim.</nowiki>

[12:21] Simon Linden<nowiki>: ah, ok</nowiki>

[12:21] ac14 Hutson<nowiki>: if you use llPlaySound or llLoopSound.</nowiki>

[12:21] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: i think its also boring to hear always a "plonk" sound, even if leves fall down</nowiki>

[12:21] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: hrm... it sounds like LSL and collision sounds might have some "low hanging fruit" (features that are pretty easy to implement)</nowiki>

[12:21] ac14 Hutson<nowiki>: triggersound does not follow the prims so thats a bit useless for vehicles</nowiki>

[12:21] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I don't use sound often ... and when I do it's a quick effect</nowiki>

[12:21] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: (oh, sorry, I guess it's collision sprite --not collision sound -- that's completely broken, per </nowiki>http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-322<nowiki> )</nowiki>

[12:22] Siwo<nowiki>: you can use llSetMemoryLimit, and profiling to find out how much memory it actually need :|</nowiki>

[12:22] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: pah</nowiki>

[12:22] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-3050<nowiki> (Feature Request : Make the PrimCollisionSound to Prim-Property [The Waterdrop Effect] )</nowiki>

[12:22] Motor Loon<nowiki>: yeah I use triggersound in some of my vehicles, and its VERY noticeable that the sounds are not attached</nowiki>

[12:22] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: i can read this jira</nowiki>

[12:22] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: yeah, the collision sprites were pulled from the viewer for improvements in render FPS, as I recall -- happened years ago</nowiki>

[12:23] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: iam living beside a sandbox, i wish to get new sounds by a physics grief</nowiki>

[12:23] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: without a need for a script</nowiki>

[12:23] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: to enjoy the full grief</nowiki>

[12:23] Motor Loon<nowiki>: lol ansi</nowiki>

[12:23] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: this "takkle" sound makes me ill</nowiki>

[12:24] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: loop sound sticks even after a ban, which sux, heh</nowiki>

[12:24] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: would be much funnier if prims get different sounds</nowiki>

[12:24] ac14 Hutson<nowiki>: idk the "sound of greifing" is a classic by now.</nowiki>

[12:24] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: i call it "the waterdrop effect" because i want to invent Virtual Waterdrops, but need a script in every prim</nowiki>

[12:25] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: to change the sound</nowiki>

[12:25] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: this will make some MB</nowiki>

[12:25] ac14 Hutson<nowiki>: oh another thing about the sounds llLinkAdjustSoundVolume would be cool too.</nowiki>

[12:25] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: at leas u don't want to makea dust storm:)</nowiki>

[12:25] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Andrew, there's something that seems to be related to the interest list I've noticed. There's a thing with certain doors that have an autoclose function. Namely, the Neurolab Lunar Door (it's mesh, BTW), exhibits the following behaviour: you open it, then walk away (and turn your camera away from it); it closes after a short while. You hear the closing sound but it doesn't look closed. It still appears open until you click on it.</nowiki>

[12:26] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Let me demonstrate a bit.</nowiki>

[12:26] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Mona, are you on Firestorm 4.4.2?</nowiki>

[12:26] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: If so that bugs fixed in the 4.5.1 beta</nowiki>

[12:26] Motor Loon<nowiki>: I had that issue on FS 442 but its seems solved in the beta</nowiki>

[12:26] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Its a viewer bug</nowiki>

[12:26] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: that is generally a cool idea. And possibility to make the sound louder depends on energy of the colision so objects with smaller mass when collided would sound quieter then objects with larger mass or speed</nowiki>

[12:26] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Its already fixed on v3</nowiki>

[12:26] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: yes, i see the same often by "objects 10m or more away from you", they dont update</nowiki>

[12:27] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Yeah, I heard about a viewer-side bug that was breaking doors -- was fixed a while ago in LL viewer but hadn't been ported to some 3rd party viewers.</nowiki>

[12:27] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: I'm on FS 4.4.2.34167</nowiki>

[12:27] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: If anyone is on Firestorm 4.4.2 seeing this, please update to 4.5.1</nowiki>

[12:27] Motor Loon<nowiki>: kinda hard if they're not in the beta group Whirly °͜°</nowiki>

[12:27] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Its public now</nowiki>

[12:27] Motor Loon<nowiki>: oh ok then °͜°</nowiki>

[12:28] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Oh, ok.</nowiki>

[12:28] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Duckie, I'm also interested in your observance that sculpty prims are loading slower these days.</nowiki>

[12:28] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: it goes out to everyone tomorrow</nowiki>

[12:28] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Join Phoenix-Firestorm Preview Group and download links are in notice</nowiki>

[12:28] Motor Loon<nowiki>: 4.5.1 (32bit) runs really sweet on my setup btw</nowiki>

[12:28] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: thank you Whirly :) I wil do update, the bug is annoying</nowiki>

[12:28] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: 4.5.1 is ready to download?</nowiki>

[12:28] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Yes</nowiki>

[12:28] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I had done some scene loading comparisons between the LL release viewer and the new "project interesting" viewer and noticed that -- sculpty prims seemed to load faster in project interesting</nowiki>

[12:29] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: no longer in beta?</nowiki>

[12:29] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: not from our site, whirly</nowiki>

[12:29] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: Oh, right, the sculpty thing. They seem to have been knocked down a notch in download priority. No?</nowiki>

[12:29] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but I'm not entirely sure why that is... the sculpty data gets downloaded like a texture</nowiki>

[12:29] Motor Loon<nowiki>: perhaps sculpties from cache?</nowiki>

[12:29] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but I wonder if it is using the regular HTTP texture pipeline, or the old UDP based file xfer stuff</nowiki>

[12:29] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i think mesh get priority</nowiki>

[12:30] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: in my test cases I usually had cleared the texture cache</nowiki>

[12:30] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: lol, mesh</nowiki>

[12:30] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: I can't say Ive noticed sculpts being any slower then normal to rez.</nowiki>

[12:30] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: so the sculpties were being downloaded anew</nowiki>

[12:30] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: Sculpties used to get higher priority. I remember when they didn't, and loaded dead last out of everything. Then that was changed, to avoid the "forever blob" bug.</nowiki>

[12:30] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is half over</nowiki>

[12:31] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: btw Whirly, the ETA for project interesting has been pushed out again, currently at Nov 12th or so</nowiki>

[12:31] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Awwww okay</nowiki>

[12:31] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: there was a performance regression that we're working on -- lower FPS in project interesting</nowiki>

[12:31] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: probably because it is rendering more objects -- more small objects in view get rendered (that's my theory anyway)</nowiki>

[12:32] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: I need to compile it again. I was getting build errors and gave up but I noticed a lot of build fixes were pushed since then.</nowiki>

[12:32] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: well, I'll keep a watch out for more reports of slow sculpty loads</nowiki>

[12:34] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: Oh, so it wasn't on purpose then? maybe it just seems that way now, when everything else gets priority first?</nowiki>

[12:34] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: uh... Whirly I notice that our latest build of project interesting failed.</nowiki>

[12:34] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Oh! Ill wait then hehe</nowiki>

[12:34] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: the last successful build was.. Oct 25th</nowiki>

[12:35] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Andrew - fwiw our internal build system has an error right now, but that shouldn't be part of external builds</nowiki>

[12:36] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: actually Simon now that I look closer... this looks like a build-farm issue-- it failed too early for it to be a compile or link error</nowiki>

[12:36] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Can we please get a OBJECT_LAST_OWNER llGetObjectDetails() constant? I've had a major increase of distro'd obfuscated creator objects/attacks/spam used this year, plus I'd like for a script reset in a deeded object to know who deeded it. Thanks.</nowiki>

[12:36] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: so maybe it will work Whirly</nowiki>

[12:36] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Okay ty. Ill try again.</nowiki>

[12:37] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: I do support the request for OBJECT_LAST_OWNER, it would be cool one</nowiki>

[12:37] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: lucy i think we need OBJECT_LAST_TEN_OWNERS :)</nowiki>

[12:37] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: hrm... I wonder if there would be some privacy issues with LAST_OWNER. What do you all think? Should it be publicly available?</nowiki>

[12:37] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That sounds pretty simple</nowiki>

[12:37] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: there is only one prim property for last owner, nto last ten, lol</nowiki>

[12:37] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Is it already available via the UI on object select?</nowiki>

[12:37] Simon Linden<nowiki>: it's there if you right-click on an object, correct?</nowiki>

[12:38] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Lucia is right</nowiki>

[12:38] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Yes</nowiki>

[12:38] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: it is normal that avatars has a OBJECT_STREAMING_COST and OBJECT_SERVER_COST ? i can see on my monitoring that servers will have much lag if a avatar has streaming costs or server costs.... but this avatars are existent</nowiki>

[12:38] ac14 Hutson<nowiki>: TPVs already show it.</nowiki>

[12:38] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: and also llGetInventoryLastOwner, when possible</nowiki>

[12:38] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Hmm does V3 not show last owner in edit?</nowiki>

[12:38] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: can't really think of privacy issues with it..</nowiki>

[12:38] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: for normal i only see avatars without streamingcost/servercost</nowiki>

[12:38] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: for checking that information for objects inside a box.</nowiki>

[12:38] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Which reminds me... we once kicked around the idea of increasing the last owner record -- it looked feasible at the time, as I recall.</nowiki>

[12:39] Motor Loon<nowiki>: I think it'd be a nice feature to see more than 1 last owner</nowiki>

[12:39] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I need scripted means of pulling that data.</nowiki>

[12:39] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Ok, so if the last owner is visible through the UI then it shouldn't be much of a privacy issue to open it to scripts, I think.</nowiki>

[12:39] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: Andrewm that would be even cooler, when you could make things remember on all last owners :)</nowiki>

[12:39] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: i think its not OK to see all the last owners</nowiki>

[12:39] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: its privacy</nowiki>

[12:39] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That one seems pretty easy</nowiki>

[12:39] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: theres too much going on taht I can't catch with my own eyes or that I'm not present to see or deal with</nowiki>

[12:39] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: the last owner is OK</nowiki>

[12:39] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: but not more last owners</nowiki>

[12:40] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'm not sure I'd want to support all last owners... but perhaps a maximum depth</nowiki>

[12:40] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Last owner is easy, more than that ... don't hold your breath</nowiki>

[12:40] ac14 Hutson<nowiki>: its not on the official veiwer. TPV's just do it without asking lol</nowiki>

[12:40] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: Why not all?</nowiki>

[12:40] Motor Loon<nowiki>: Last owner better than nothing °͜°</nowiki>

[12:40] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: I suspect that most objects only have a handful of owners in their history</nowiki>

[12:40] ac14 Hutson<nowiki>: there should be a log of all last owners server side. i wouldnt make that information public IMO</nowiki>

[12:40] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: Last owner is ok, however a strink of owners is not, as it proves contact, and how things exchanged hands- so it's information beyond what the object needs.</nowiki>

[12:41] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: well, I'd be nervous about opening a new resource to arbitrary depth... new grief mode</nowiki>

[12:41] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: does that mean I wont' get away with building freebies with my Philip Linden Prim?</nowiki>

[12:41] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: to see more than one owner, you are able to solve the riddle about alt-acounts</nowiki>

[12:41] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: But serverside, definitely. Would be handy for DMCA's too, no?</nowiki>

[12:41] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: create an object with 1000 last owners... eventually something has to break</nowiki>

[12:41] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: ok</nowiki>

[12:41] Simon Linden<nowiki>: right now there is no history, and tracking that data would be tough without rezzing and re-saving the object as a new asset</nowiki>

[12:41] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: its privacy</nowiki>

[12:41] Simon Linden<nowiki>: since you can transfer objects without rezzing, it would be really tough to track</nowiki>

[12:41] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I don't need a last owner history, lol, just teh last owner</nowiki>

[12:42] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yep, and I'll be blunt ... you're not going to get the history :)</nowiki>

[12:42] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: this is mainly for rez from inventory or distro'd objects</nowiki>

[12:42] Simon Linden<nowiki>: If you want that ... script in an email whenever the owner changes</nowiki>

[12:42] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Last Owner is a misnomer; we really should call it Previous Owner</nowiki>

[12:42] Andrew Linden<nowiki> agrees with Jonathan</nowiki>

[12:43] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: So... we want this Previous Owner to be exposed to scripts, right? (Since TPVs already get it.)</nowiki>

[12:43] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: Would be also nice when objects could delete themselves into trash, or drop on ground instead of just detach</nowiki>

[12:43] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: yes, it sounds easy to do Qie</nowiki>

[12:43] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: cool.</nowiki>

[12:43] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'll look into it. Ping me again next week about it.</nowiki>

[12:43] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-1754

[12:43] Motor Loon<nowiki>: We actually catch alot of people "getting around bans" with alts, they tend to be stupid enough to pass items to the new avatar from the banned one... like "cool" attachments, easy to spot and add two'n'two together °͜°</nowiki>

[12:43] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: theres a feature request to watch, heh</nowiki>

[12:43] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: "Previous Owner" is acceptable name :)</nowiki>

[12:43] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: previous owner is a field in the object data, so adding it tot he UI is trivial</nowiki>

[12:44] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: For anyone not on a TPV with that feature, this is how FS shows last owner in edit </nowiki>http://i.imgur.com/3kJySM0.png

[12:45] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I would place that request at a higher priority than my llGetAttachedList() request due to the influx of abuse this year alone</nowiki>

[12:45] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: how does it get that data, Whirly?</nowiki>

[12:46] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: is it stored when you receive the prim while you're on Firestorm?</nowiki>

[12:46] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Also last owner is shown on area search for every object in the region i.imgur.com/azqLdfn.png</nowiki>

[12:46] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: logging and monitoring prims (and their uuid)</nowiki>

[12:46] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: like this thing : </nowiki>https://my.secondlife.com/de/ansi.soderstrom/snapshots/5243e9c07cc2b71fb1000001?version=original

[12:46] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Oh I really don't know Martin, Ill have to ask</nowiki>

[12:46] Simon Linden<nowiki>: hmm, I didn't realize that's not in the SL viewer</nowiki>

[12:47] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: The LastOwnerID is currently transmitted in the ObjectProperties message</nowiki>

[12:47] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[12:47] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: has been that way for a long time</nowiki>

[12:47] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: ahhh</nowiki>

[12:47] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: my.secondlife.com is still down, Ansi</nowiki>

[12:47] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: ahh</nowiki>

[12:47] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: wut ?</nowiki>

[12:47] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: not to me</nowiki>

[12:47] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: not to me either</nowiki>

[12:47] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: works for me</nowiki>

[12:48] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Down for me actually</nowiki>

[12:48] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: there's a gridstatus message from about 2 hours ago that it's offline</nowiki>

[12:48] Baker Linden<nowiki>: parts of it have worked for me, other parts not so much</nowiki>

[12:48] Hexapoda<nowiki>: I could see Ansis snapshot</nowiki>

[12:48] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: It keeps coming & going. Theres some maintenance going on atm</nowiki>

[12:48] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: dont beliefe in gridstatus</nowiki>

[12:48] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: what if gridstatus is down, is SL then also down ?</nowiki>

[12:49] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: i only beliefe what i log by myself *g</nowiki>

[12:49] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: then you uae irc :D</nowiki>

[12:51] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: crickets...</nowiki>

[12:51] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: Btw, is it just firestorm, or do mesh object's highlight not move when the object is moved anymore? Until released from build? Or is it just me >.<</nowiki>

[12:51] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: On rigged mesh?</nowiki>

[12:51] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: no, rezzed</nowiki>

[12:51] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Its all viewers if so</nowiki>

[12:52] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Hmmm.... not sure...</nowiki>

[12:52] ac14 Hutson<nowiki>: works fine for me</nowiki>

[12:52] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Works for me, im on 4.5.1</nowiki>

[12:52] ac14 Hutson<nowiki>: Second Life 3.6.9 (282535) Oct 18 2013 04:31:50 (Second Life Release)</nowiki>

[12:52] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: I move stuff, and it's highlight, sometimes the whole object stays where it is, until i release it from build, then it snaps into place. Was thinking it could be something with interest list & updates, but it could be just as well only me...</nowiki>

[12:53] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: PRIM_POSITION is not udpdated by server</nowiki>

[12:53] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: if i do a LSL PRIM_POSITION while i selected the item, it wont move</nowiki>

[12:53] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: even if i deselect</nowiki>

[12:53] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: i have to select it again</nowiki>

[12:53] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: to see the move</nowiki>

[12:54] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: there. Move a child prim, and then undo the move</nowiki>

[12:54] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: i realized it by inventing a laser system</nowiki>

[12:54] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: interesting</nowiki>

[12:54] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: and i see two objects, the highlight moves, and the old object stays behind</nowiki>

[12:54] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: root & chile are both mesh?</nowiki>

[12:54] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: *child</nowiki>

[12:54] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: yeah</nowiki>

[12:54] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: trying</nowiki>

[12:54] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: These days the viewer is supposed to move the visible representation of the object (although it stays in its original spot on the server) until you commit (let go) at which point it tries to send a "move this object here" message to the server.</nowiki>

[12:55] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: The server may reject the move and send an update for the old position -- if the mover lacked perms for the move, for example.</nowiki>

[12:55] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is almost over</nowiki>

[12:55] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Hmm seems okay here.</nowiki>

[12:55] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: It's extremely annoying, since the "old representation" obscures the view, and i can't fine-tune where the other bit goes.</nowiki>

[12:56] ac14 Hutson<nowiki>: i used to have that issue months ago.</nowiki>

[12:57] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Possibly its something that is fixed in 4.5.1 but not in 4.4.2 lex. Ill try on 4.4.2 later.</nowiki>

[12:57] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: i have a video about the "non-moving-prims"</nowiki>

[12:57] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: Thanks :) I'll try newer update or other viewer.</nowiki>

[12:57] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: There was a really old bug for this but Im sure its fixed on 4.4.2 even/</nowiki>

[12:58] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: </nowiki>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vM1aTe8Jig<nowiki> at 2:15 .... child prims won´t move</nowiki>

[12:58] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: i have 4.4.2 >.< not fixed here for sure, hahaha</nowiki>

[12:59] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Hmm is it </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-29581<nowiki> ?</nowiki>

[12:59] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: Anyhow, if i have it and no one else, then it's easily fixed ;)</nowiki>

[12:59] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: if anyone wanted these halloween linden bears, I have a copy/transfer version of the 2008 linden halloween goody bag that contains the bears...if you're a collector. :)</nowiki>

[12:59] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: yes yes yes, MMEEEEEE</nowiki>

[13:00] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: pleeeeeeease</nowiki>

[13:00] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: ty :)</nowiki>

[13:00] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: OOOh yes please!</nowiki>

[13:00] Meeter<nowiki>: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group</nowiki>

[13:01] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Please!</nowiki>

[13:01] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Thanks everyone!</nowiki>

[13:01] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Ok thanks for coming everyone.</nowiki>

[13:01] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Take care, Linden.</nowiki>

[13:01] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Thanks everyone for coming today</nowiki>

[13:01] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Thank you Andrew & everyone</nowiki>

[13:01] Simon Linden<nowiki>: See you next time</nowiki>

[13:01] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Thanks Duckie :)</nowiki>

[13:01] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc andrew</nowiki>

[13:01] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc simon</nowiki>

[13:01] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: tc simon, andrew, and baker</nowiki>

[13:01] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Ty Lindens</nowiki>

[13:01] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Thank you, Simon, Andrew, Baker.</nowiki>

 
[[Simulator_User_Group]]
{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.10.22|Prev 2013.10.22]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.11.05|Next 2013.11.05]]
|}

Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.10.22

2013-10-22T20:45:25Z

Andrew Linden: Created page with "{| | Prev 2013.10.15 | Next 2013.10.29 |} == List of Speakers == {| |<font color=…"

{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.10.15|Prev 2013.10.15]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.10.29|Next 2013.10.29]]
|}

== List of Speakers ==
{|
|Adamburp Adamczyk
|Andrew Linden
|Annoying User
|-
|Duckie Dickins
|Ima Mechanique
|Inara Pey
|-
|Jenna Felton
|Kelly Linden
|Kennylex Luckless
|-
|Loki Eliot
|Lucia Nightfire
|Mona Eberhardt
|-
|Nalates Urriah
|Qie Niangao
|Rex Cronon
|-
|Simon Linden
|TankMaster Finesmith
|Whirly Fizzle
|-
|Yuzuru Jewell
|}

== Transcript ==
[12:02] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Hello, Andrew.</nowiki>

[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Hi everyone ... I can get started with the server release news</nowiki>

[12:02] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: hello</nowiki>

[12:02] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hi simon</nowiki>

[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: We updated the main server channel this morning</nowiki>

[12:02] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hi andrew</nowiki>

[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The forum post is here: </nowiki>http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploy-for-the-week-of-2013-10-21/td-p/2277913

[12:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Tomorrow the RC are NOT getting updated so we'll have the same version grid-wide, likely until next Wednesday</nowiki>

[12:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: RC channels*</nowiki>

[12:03] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: And here's Kelly... Now we're waiting for Baker!</nowiki>

[12:03] Inara Pey<nowiki>: Will the RCs still be restarted?</nowiki>

[12:03] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: so the grid wil e al equal for a week?</nowiki>

[12:04] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Baker can't make it today.</nowiki>

[12:04] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: *CENSORED*</nowiki>

[12:04] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Exotix - no, there's no planned restarts</nowiki>

[12:04] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: hello all</nowiki>

[12:04] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: feel free to restart it on your own though!</nowiki>

[12:05] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hi</nowiki>

[12:05] Duckie Dickins<nowiki> crashes his mainland sim to restart it.</nowiki>

[12:05] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I know Baker has been working on getting his group ban work onto the beta grid, but am not sure when that will be available for testing</nowiki>

[12:06] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: he's also busy with company</nowiki>

[12:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: it's an interesting roll-out plan since it involves updates all over to servers, databases and viewers</nowiki>

[12:06] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Yay! Hopefully soon.</nowiki>

[12:06] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I don't have any news... except that I have finished rebuilding my Windows machine and successfully build the SL viewer this morning.</nowiki>

[12:06] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: I would of thought you'd have a minion to do that for you. :)</nowiki>

[12:07] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: err intern? :)</nowiki>

[12:07] Andrew Linden<nowiki> needs more minions.</nowiki>

[12:07] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: can never have to many minions</nowiki>

[12:07] rcdsQueChatLog<nowiki>: Jenna Felton, you can read the log here:</nowiki>

http://rcds.nfshost.com/ques_view_chatLog.php?queOwner=llsl:Rex<nowiki>+Cronon&queName=chatLog&pg=1</nowiki>

[12:07] Simon Linden<nowiki>: So I think that's it for news ... the table's open for topics or questions</nowiki>

[12:07] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: No actually, I'm not sure I'd leave this to a minion.</nowiki>

[12:07] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[12:08] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: what could go wrong? :P</nowiki>

[12:08] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I actually installed Cygwin python as well as the regular python install and had to do some extra work to make that work correctly.</nowiki>

[12:08] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Any chance that we'll see materials (normal, specular maps) control via LSL as per MATBUG-359? As it is, it feels like it's been implemented only in half. Adding LSL functionality that'll allow creators to change normal and specular maps along with the main texture will be a godsend to content creators. I mentioned it yesterday at Nyx's meeting and he suggested that I bring it up here as well.</nowiki>

[12:09] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: My first thought about that is...</nowiki>

[12:09] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: One of the fundamental design flaws of SL was allowing textures on object faces to be specified by UUID only.</nowiki>

[12:10] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I think that the material system is a bit different... not just a set of UUID's on faces.</nowiki>

[12:10] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'd have to read the code to know more...</nowiki>

[12:10] Simon Linden<nowiki>: hmmm that is an interesting one</nowiki>

[12:11] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: actually a question for those of you who use materials... how do materials exist in the inventory or object contents?</nowiki>

[12:11] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Can they exist there as items?</nowiki>

[12:11] Andrew Linden<nowiki> hasn't used the feature yet at all.</nowiki>

[12:11] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: u can create TextureProperties2.0 object that has an uuid and u set the uuid for the texture on an object to the uuid of the TextureProperties2.0</nowiki>

[12:12] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: There is no material asset. Materials are an atribute of objects as additional textures.</nowiki>

[12:12] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: But the texture used for a "material" can be stored in a prim's contents though?</nowiki>

[12:13] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Urs just 2 extra textures for the normal & specular maps. Set on the object in the same way you set the normal diffuse texture</nowiki>

[12:13] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: *its</nowiki>

[12:13] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Yes, Ima</nowiki>

[12:13] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Has anyone that uses materials written up some ideas on what the LSL API would look like for them?</nowiki>

[12:13] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: I think that was Andrew's question</nowiki>

[12:14] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Well, what I was getting at is that I wouldn't want to provide an API that can just set the UUID's of textures to arbitrary values.</nowiki>

[12:14] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't this be done by expanding llSetPrimitiveParameters?</nowiki>

[12:14] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: MATBUG-359 doesn't have any proposals for what it should look like just 'add lsl support for materials'.</nowiki>

[12:14] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: llSetPrimitiveParams*</nowiki>

[12:15] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: this is a case where at least I am not a user of materials and I don't have a clear idea of what you would do with materials with LSL, were the feature to exist.</nowiki>

[12:15] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: just a new property PRIM_MATERIAL that is similar to texture and color properties,</nowiki>

[12:15] Loki Eliot<nowiki>: PRIM_NORMAL</nowiki>

[12:15] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Yeah, it's really pretty obvious, once you open the Texture tab of the build tool.</nowiki>

[12:15] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Or PRIM_NORMAL and PRIM_SPEC</nowiki>

[12:15] Loki Eliot<nowiki>: PRIM_SPECULAR</nowiki>

[12:15] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Yup, what Loki says.</nowiki>

[12:15] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: And talking about materials, is it possible to extend the material system also by a shadow map? That could make some mesh hacks obsolete</nowiki>

[12:16] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: jenna: that is something you may have to take back to nyx.</nowiki>

[12:16] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I don't know how hard it would be to extend the material system.</nowiki>

[12:16] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Yeah, best to ask someone who actually worked on that project.</nowiki>

[12:16] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Now, as to what could be done with such a functionality...</nowiki>

[12:17] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: You guys know of the various colour/resize/texture-changing HUDs used in several products (shoes, for instance).</nowiki>

[12:17] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: generally speaking those are not some of my favorite uses of LSL, but I am aware of them.</nowiki>

[12:17] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: ok Kelly, Andrew</nowiki>

[12:17] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: The slightly tricky bit for Materials in LSL is the possibility of animating the material maps separately from the diffusemap texture.</nowiki>

[12:18] Loki Eliot<nowiki>: id find it usful for changing surfaces from looking dry to looking wet</nowiki>

[12:18] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: By extending LSL functionality, we'd be able to change the texture, the normal and the specular map at the same time, and you'd switch from, say, top-grain leather to velvet or suede or leatherette, and you'd also get the proper look. And yes, changing from a dry to a wet look, as Loki said, is another bonus.</nowiki>

[12:19] Loki Eliot<nowiki>: XD</nowiki>

[12:19] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: uh ohs</nowiki>

[12:19] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: andrew: it looks like we treat the specular/normal maps as just regular textures in inventory, so we could require they be in the object contents.</nowiki>

[12:20] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: why require them to be in contents?</nowiki>

[12:20] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: That would be my preference -- limit the LSL API to set material textures to that are in object contents.</nowiki>

[12:20] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: um, yeah, why?</nowiki>

[12:21] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: yes, why, the viewr gets uuid anyways to show</nowiki>

[12:21] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Because it makes it harder for someone to just use any texture that they happen to see in the world.</nowiki>

[12:21] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: uuids don't have permissions attached, inventory items do.</nowiki>

[12:22] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: So my proposed materials API would actually require the user to *have* the textures that they are using.</nowiki>

[12:22] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: well, sure, but we're worrying about that for NORMAL and SPECULAR maps, of all things??</nowiki>

[12:22] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Would storing it int he object let the caching get ahead of the need to have it download at use-time?</nowiki>

[12:22] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: yes</nowiki>

[12:22] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i wasn't aware that i can use the texture on objecs that don't belong to me</nowiki>

[12:22] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: which can actually limit your use. you can't distribute a texture in content as no copy, and still be able to show it on the prim can you?</nowiki>

[12:22] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: lol, Rex</nowiki>

[12:22] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: u so funneh</nowiki>

[12:23] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: :)</nowiki>

[12:23] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Seems kinda strange when this isn't required for diffuse textures</nowiki>

[12:23] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: huh. okay, well, it's not a huge problem. just a little extra lag on sim crossings.</nowiki>

[12:23] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: There are scripts that set the texture saved inside the script as UUID. Those scripts would not work than. I'd suggest than to allows script to use the UUID that the script creator uploaded</nowiki>

[12:23] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: my skin for example was set to my avie by a script with stored skin texture UUID</nowiki>

[12:23] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: oh, right: can't do it remotely. Makes all objects a little nerfed like Mesh.</nowiki>

[12:25] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I am in favor of making materials controllable by script. But I wonder when we'll be able to get it done.</nowiki>

[12:25] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: what, you dont have loads of free time? :P</nowiki>

[12:25] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: heh</nowiki>

[12:25] Loki Eliot<nowiki>: he he</nowiki>

[12:26] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: that's where having more minions comes into play....</nowiki>

[12:26] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I think the next small step would be laying out a clearer proposed API and the exact behavior</nowiki>

[12:26] Loki Eliot<nowiki>: if we haven't learnt by now to be patient users</nowiki>

[12:26] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I've got a few LSL calls that I want to add and at the same time I'll try to look at the materials system to see how hard it would be to give script access to it.</nowiki>

[12:27] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Speaking of LSL, an idea came up recently about adding some llGetObjectDetails() parameters to get an object's pathfinding attributes</nowiki>

[12:27] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Does that sound useful to anyone?</nowiki>

[12:27] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: why not have a separate function for that</nowiki>

[12:27] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Well, if you can think it, we can (ab/mis)use it. :P</nowiki>

[12:27] Simon Linden<nowiki>: because separate functions are more work</nowiki>

[12:27] rcdsQueChatLog<nowiki>: TankMaster Finesmith, you can read the log here:</nowiki>

http://rcds.nfshost.com/ques_view_chatLog.php?queOwner=llsl:Rex<nowiki>+Cronon&queName=chatLog&pg=1</nowiki>

[12:27] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: that seems usefull :)</nowiki>

[12:28] Loki Eliot<nowiki>: h yes pathfinding</nowiki>

[12:28] Simon Linden<nowiki>: sorry, I made a mistake - not pathfinding, but keyframe animation states</nowiki>

[12:28] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: how many llGOD() constants would be devoted?</nowiki>

[12:28] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: also, what data</nowiki>

[12:28] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: generally speaking, being able to get dinformation is always useful ;-)</nowiki>

[12:28] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: true Ima</nowiki>

[12:29] Simon Linden<nowiki>: So it would be possible to get the step number, state (paused, looping, ping-pong, etc) and I'm not sure what else</nowiki>

[12:29] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: oh, hmm... KFM more interesting than pathfinding. Not sure when I'd use the obj details, though.</nowiki>

[12:29] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I still say that would be more attractive in a separate function format</nowiki>

[12:29] Simon Linden<nowiki>: it would be most useful to see if you've reached a waypoint or the end, I think</nowiki>

[12:29] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: not multiple llGOD() devoted constants, lol</nowiki>

[12:29] Loki Eliot<nowiki>: i dont understand</nowiki>

[12:29] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Simon, I think I could build more AI into a script with those events... but, I haven't used keyframes much.</nowiki>

[12:30] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: i became desperate trying to make a particle effect that someone else made. I failed on it. Would love to have a function that delivers tehe particle parameters from a prim.</nowiki>

[12:30] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: if u get kmd data would be useful to know how many steps there r</nowiki>

[12:30] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: or starting point</nowiki>

[12:30] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: I has to go, try to behave good now Andrew, see ya all</nowiki>

[12:30] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: kmf*</nowiki>

[12:30] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Jenna I think thats sitting in STORM with a patch, hang on....</nowiki>

[12:30] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is half over</nowiki>

[12:30] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc</nowiki>

[12:31] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That seems like data best extracted in your viewer</nowiki>

[12:31] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: bye Rex</nowiki>

[12:31] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: Speaking of more information... I'd like an giveInventory type function that returns a transaction ID like TransferDollars does</nowiki>

[12:31] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Jenna </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-1972

[12:31] JIRA-helper<nowiki>: [#STORM-1972] Particle debug display went missing from menu - Second Life Bug Tracker</nowiki>

[12:31] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: ...er Kenny</nowiki>

[12:32] Loki Eliot<nowiki>: is there a list of topics being discussed or are we just randomly talking about stuffs?</nowiki>

[12:32] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: thank you Whirly</nowiki>

[12:32] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: open table loki</nowiki>

[12:32] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: We're just randomly talking about stuffs.</nowiki>

[12:32] Simon Linden<nowiki>: We're random, Loki</nowiki>

[12:32] Loki Eliot<nowiki>: oh ok</nowiki>

[12:32] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: random topics loki ;-)</nowiki>

[12:32] Simon Linden<nowiki>: We also often say the same thing</nowiki>

[12:33] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: keyboard lag ;-)</nowiki>

[12:33] Loki Eliot<nowiki>: hehe well can i put forward an idea i had about animating mesh</nowiki>

[12:33] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: i.e. how long it takes me to type it since I last looked at the screen</nowiki>

[12:33] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: my favorite, a mesh with sceleton</nowiki>

[12:33] Loki Eliot<nowiki>: no actually not skeleton</nowiki>

[12:33] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: ah ok</nowiki>

[12:33] Simon Linden<nowiki>: plus the tenancy to press return before reading chat :)</nowiki>

[12:34] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Kelly, did you implement llTransferDollars?</nowiki>

[12:34] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: yu</nowiki>

[12:34] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: p</nowiki>

[12:34] Loki Eliot<nowiki>: Skeletons for mesh objects would be great but i doubt LL have time and resources to do that anytime soon</nowiki>

[12:34] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yeah, that would be a pretty big project</nowiki>

[12:34] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Andrew: I did.</nowiki>

[12:34] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: UUID flipping for mesh was a bad bad idea, And banned by LL :)</nowiki>

[12:35] Loki Eliot<nowiki>: My own problems are with alpha flipping mesh, which i was told yesterday has to recieve a message everytime the alpha is turned visible and invisible</nowiki>

[12:35] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: How hard would it be to do a similar thing for llGiveInventory()?</nowiki>

[12:35] Loki Eliot<nowiki>: its refevered to in the SL wiki as "Method: Alpha Animation"</nowiki>

[12:36] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I guess we'd need a new function name... llGiveInventory() is already taken.</nowiki>

[12:36] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Andrew maybe not too hard. When giving to agents we have similar piping under the hood for giving inventory. That said, llTransferLindenDollars was harder to implement than I expected</nowiki>

[12:36] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: llTransferInventory(0 llTransferInventoryFolder to be in line with TransferDollars</nowiki>

[12:36] Loki Eliot<nowiki>: i was wondering since mesh only is allowed 8 sides and that the method Alpha Flipping is generally used for looping animations, why cant it be like llSetTextureAnim</nowiki>

[12:36] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: could the transaction_result() event be overridden for llTransferInventory()?</nowiki>

[12:36] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: llInventoryTransactionUUIDLongFunctionNameIsLong()</nowiki>

[12:37] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Transfering folders or multiple objects would make it much, much more difficult.</nowiki>

[12:37] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: that is... pipe the transactions through the same event</nowiki>

[12:37] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: And i'd love to have a variant of llGiveInventoryList() that is able to give a complete folder structure, like possible by receiving from residents and marketplace</nowiki>

[12:37] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Andrew: I think it could.</nowiki>

[12:37] Loki Eliot<nowiki>: the objectr if a looped animation should not need to recieve a message about its state</nowiki>

[12:37] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: Kelly isn't multiple items treated as a single transaction?</nowiki>

[12:38] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: The underlying systems for giving a single inventory item and multiple inventory items are significantly different.</nowiki>

[12:38] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: if not, then just do a single item version. people know how to box stuff ;-)</nowiki>

[12:39] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Andrew mentioned the mistake regarding LSL and texture IDs, but how we handle boxing and boxed things is higher on my list of 'mistakes' in sl. Hate boxes.</nowiki>

[12:39] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[12:40] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: I still miss seeing newbs wearing them ;-)</nowiki>

[12:40] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: on their heads</nowiki>

[12:41] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: well, I ask about TransferInventory as it doesn't seem likely we'll ever get access to the marketplace system by via LSL</nowiki>

[12:41] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: but if you could do that instead, don't mind me ;-)</nowiki>

[12:41] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: heh, the ANS doesn't even have teh option to email an in-world server upon sale</nowiki>

[12:41] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: Would be a possibility to zip a folder inside inventory and transform it into a single item that can be given and unzipped into a folder, easier to implement? Than this would make the inventory smaller because you could zip the most unused folders into single archives. and the object could give that zipped archive instead of a folder, plus you could unbox stuff withougt needs of rezzing it</nowiki>

[12:42] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: that would probably be harder</nowiki>

[12:42] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: ok</nowiki>

[12:42] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: We have colesed objects, might something like that work?</nowiki>

[12:43] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Yeah. The folder organization already sorta encapsulates the notion of "bundled"... sorta.</nowiki>

[12:43] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: coalesced^</nowiki>

[12:43] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: A zipped item in inventory would require a new inventory type.</nowiki>

[12:43] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: I kind of like the idea of a 'folder' or 'collection' asset but it would be decidedly non trivial to implement.</nowiki>

[12:44] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: yes, it needs a new inventoy type. because you can not rezz a zipped folder of clothes on ground</nowiki>

[12:44] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: u would need lsl functions that can search/create/edit forlders inside objects...</nowiki>

[12:44] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: but a collection of loose boxes you can</nowiki>

[12:45] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Oh right I forgot. Object contents can't have folders.</nowiki>

[12:45] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: welll, we call them boxes</nowiki>

[12:46] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: i must not be able to look into a zipped folder, until i unzip it. So it can behave like a simple box. but not rezzable on ground</nowiki>

[12:47] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: lol Id forget what was in all mine :D</nowiki>

[12:47] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: I'm assuming a special folder in inventory couldn't hold collection folders that LSL could access? Mainly assuming that because MP didn't do it</nowiki>

[12:48] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: anyone looking into fixing the issue with people bombing regions? </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SEC-1352<nowiki> Starting to see and hear about several copycat type devices now too.</nowiki>

[12:48] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yes Lucy</nowiki>

[12:48] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: Ima, a direct delivery from owner's inventory by inworld vendors. that is a great idea</nowiki>

[12:48] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I take it its not an easy fix, ya?</nowiki>

[12:49] Simon Linden<nowiki>: It rarely is :)</nowiki>

[12:49] Simon Linden<nowiki>: .... especially without breaking something else</nowiki>

[12:49] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: it would be a bad idea to wait until it spreads grid-wide to start fixing the bombing:(</nowiki>

[12:50] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I think its sort of headed that way now, lol.</nowiki>

[12:50] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: its only a matter fo time, like most things</nowiki>

[12:50] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: Can one stop objects from rezzing stuff remotelly? I remember a fire that camoe out off contro, and spread over our sim and we had a bad time deleting it.</nowiki>

[12:51] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: Or return an object not being in the sim</nowiki>

[12:51] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: Is it an Australian sim Jenna?</nowiki>

[12:51] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: "camoe out off contro," -> "came out of control"</nowiki>

[12:52] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: no, it was more than year ago.</nowiki>

[12:52] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: It was Endora</nowiki>

[12:52] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: we played a fire brigade and the fire was too much for us</nowiki>

[12:53] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: u run out of water?</nowiki>

[12:53] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Is there any news yet about when viewer-interesting will be going to RC or a project viewer?</nowiki>

[12:53] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: You mean: an API for controlling your parcel settings/capabilities without loggin in?</nowiki>

[12:53] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: or region settings</nowiki>

[12:53] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: was interesting experiende. The fire was rezzed by some objects and we had to stop it by some toys</nowiki>

[12:54] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: would be *great* to have script control of parcel settings like that.</nowiki>

[12:54] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: yes, you go to another sim, and operate from there</nowiki>

[12:54] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: without lag or stress</nowiki>

[12:54] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: if there were lsl functions to do that, than u could do it from outside sl...</nowiki>

[12:55] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: hehe sim remote control panel, like web servers</nowiki>

[12:55] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: you can do it with a bot too</nowiki>

[12:55] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: if we could stop rezzer remotely than we could find a plan what to do next and return to the sim and delete all the rezzed fires</nowiki>

[12:55] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: it would be neat if we could give parcels a RESTful API that could be controlled by authenticated https requests</nowiki>

[12:55] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is almost over</nowiki>

[12:56] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: yeah, bypassing the avatar and LSL levels would remove a lot of the lag and make it considerably easier to battle griefing</nowiki>

[12:56] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: probably that griefers would be fought than too</nowiki>

[12:56] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: yes</nowiki>

[12:56] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: stopping a rezzing remotely is one thing, returning the rezzer is another</nowiki>

[12:57] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: limiting the number of prims a guest can use is another yet, wink</nowiki>

[12:57] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: true, but having access to remote tools to identify the object would be a good start</nowiki>

[12:57] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: everything mentioned I've filed a feature request on</nowiki>

[12:57] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: yes</nowiki>

[12:57] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: thanks Lucy</nowiki>

[12:58] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: well. a bobm needs just a few prims in order to stop all rezzing, and all scripts from running</nowiki>

[12:58] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: a bomb*</nowiki>

[12:58] Loki Eliot<nowiki>: is there a jira about this bomb issue?</nowiki>

[12:58] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: Can a sim recognize when such a bomb is on it?</nowiki>

[12:58] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I just posted the SEC</nowiki>

[12:58] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: yes, Lucia mentioned SEC-1352</nowiki>

[12:58] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: well, careful. If scripts won't run, there's no guarantee the sim can do anything to save itself either.</nowiki>

[12:59] Loki Eliot<nowiki>: aww dont have perms to see it</nowiki>

[12:59] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: my security system in my sandboxes have detected it attempted to be used before</nowiki>

[12:59] Loki Eliot<nowiki>: how very helpful that turned out to be</nowiki>

[12:59] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: the scripts that were there before the bomb can still run</nowiki>

[12:59] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: i guess a sim has a wathcdog thread that gets notice the sim is not working properly</nowiki>

[12:59] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yes, sadly, the bomb is effective by script alone</nowiki>

[13:00] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: no rezzing necessary, although if rezzing is possible the effects are sustainde indef</nowiki>

[13:00] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and now I'm seeing throwaway accts using copycat devices</nowiki>

[13:00] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: so I have greater concerns, lol</nowiki>

[13:00] Meeter<nowiki>: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group</nowiki>

[13:01] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: the hour went fast this week!</nowiki>

[13:01] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: have a good rest of the week, simon, andrew, and kelly</nowiki>

[13:01] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Whirly you asked about the project interesting viewer -- it is currently scheduled for RC before the end of this month, but it has been delayed before so I can't put a lot of confidence into that estimate.</nowiki>

[13:01] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Thanks Lindens!</nowiki>

[13:01] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Thanks everyone for coming today</nowiki>

[13:01] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Thanks Lindens, all... have fun.</nowiki>

[13:01] Loki Eliot<nowiki>: ill try again next week</nowiki>

[13:01] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Thanks Andrew</nowiki>

[13:02] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: thanks guys</nowiki>

[13:02] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Thx Lindens</nowiki>

[13:02] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Thanks Lindens :)</nowiki>

[13:02] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Thank you, Lindens.</nowiki>

[13:02] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: thanks for the meeting and have good week Lindens and all</nowiki>

[13:02] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc all those leaving</nowiki>

[13:02] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: There's at least one crash bug, some performance work to do, and one problem with obejcts not showing up right on teleport -- in the Project Interesting viewer.</nowiki>

[13:03] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: The objects not showing up bug is a regression and will probably be easy to fix -- we've had a few bugs that cause that to happen so we know where to look.</nowiki>

[13:03] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Ahhh I saw some fixed pushed for the objects not rendering after TP. Was hoping that was fixed heh</nowiki>

[13:03] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: It broke again in the latest build.</nowiki>

[13:04] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Also, we've asked Torley to help us make a video showing some comparisons with how the scene used to load to how it loads now.</nowiki>

[13:04] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: I kept my object cache file for my region from a session where my house didn't render. If I use that cache file on a build with the bug fixed, should my house render fully? Atm if I replace that cache file pre login my house will never render.</nowiki>

[13:05] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I took some of the initial video footage to see what the compirsons would likely look like -- the improvemen was pretty impressive.</nowiki>

[13:05] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: However, most of the work there has already shipped -- we're all reaping the benefits from the server work already.</nowiki>

[13:06] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Whirly, that is right. That was the repo we used to track down the bad load.</nowiki>

[13:06] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: You save the objects_XXX_YYY.slc file for the relevant region when it happens</nowiki>

[13:06] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Ya</nowiki>

[13:06] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: and then copy it back into place before you login</nowiki>

[13:07] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Whirly one interesting thing you might also confirm...</nowiki>

[13:07] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: the project interesting viewer will save a larger cache file for the region</nowiki>

[13:08] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: the way to compare is this...</nowiki>

[13:08] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: login to a region with neighbors</nowiki>

[13:08] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: walk out of the region until your viewer no longer has a connection to it</nowiki>

[13:08] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: then logout and look at the size of the objectcache file</nowiki>

[13:09] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: the viewer-release file will be much smaller than the file for project interesting</nowiki>

[13:09] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Okay</nowiki>

[13:09] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: You need to be totally disconnected from the region even as a child?</nowiki>

[13:09] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: the reason is that the server interestlist code actually behaves differently for the two cases</nowiki>

[13:09] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: yes, you wait until your child agent vanishes from that region</nowiki>

[13:09] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Okay</nowiki>

[13:10] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: the details is that the server will send a KillObject message for objects that go out of view -- for viewer-release</nowiki>

[13:10] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: that is, "The object is out of view" and "The object is deleted" are the same message in the old protocol.</nowiki>

[13:11] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: But in viewer-interesting the server will not send KillObject for *cacheable* objects that go out of view.</nowiki>

[13:11] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: ahhh</nowiki>

[13:11] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: And the definition of "cacheable" has changed recently... it means any object that hasn't changed appearance or transform in the last two minutes.</nowiki>

[13:12] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: sweet, so if you turn around and walk back, because you forgot your key for example, it is all still cached?</nowiki>

[13:12] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: The way the server distinguishes a viewer-interesting connection from a viewer-release is some flags set in the RegionHandshakeResponse message, or something like that -- I forget the exact name of the object.</nowiki>

[13:13] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Yes Ima, for viewer-interesting the cache will be much larger -- the entire region basically.</nowiki>

[13:13] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Even stuff that was never in view (skyboxen for example).</nowiki>

[13:13] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: excellent</nowiki>

[13:13] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: The server now tries hard to send what is visible first (in view frustum) and then eventually gets around to sending non-visible stuff</nowiki>

[13:14] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: and continues to send it until done.</nowiki>

[13:14] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: But in order to make this work the viewer has to be a bit smarter about what is visible and what is not</nowiki>

[13:14] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: it used to rely on the server to tell it what was not in view (via a KillObject message)</nowiki>

[13:15] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: the interest list is made based on draw distance. right?</nowiki>

[13:15] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Not just draw distance, it also uses the camera frustum.</nowiki>

[13:16] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: The visibility logic for objects now pivots on the camera position (several months ago it was still sometimes using the avatar position for some of the logic).</nowiki>

[13:16] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: But that work has been out for months.</nowiki>

[13:17] Inara Pey<nowiki>: "cacheable" is objects which have not changed outward appearance or transformed in the last two minutes? I was under the impression from Richard it was a minute?</nowiki>

[13:17] Annoying User<nowiki>: Andrew</nowiki>

[13:17] Annoying User<nowiki>: !@#$%^&*()</nowiki>

[13:17] [Second Life<nowiki>: Entering god mode, level 200]</nowiki>

[13:17] rcdsQueChatLog<nowiki>: Rex Cronon, you can read the log here:</nowiki>

http://rcds.nfshost.com/ques_view_chatLog.php?queOwner=llsl:Rex<nowiki>+Cronon&queName=chatLog&pg=1</nowiki>

[13:17] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: looking forward to seeing the interest-viewer</nowiki>

[13:17] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: hmm, someone just asked for a banning lol</nowiki>

[13:17] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Heh, I get to use the eject and ban</nowiki>

[13:17] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: wow</nowiki>

[13:17] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: although I think it just worked for this parcel</nowiki>

[13:18] Inara Pey<nowiki>: lol!</nowiki>

[13:18] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: however, I don't see any male chicken about</nowiki>

[13:18] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Maybe also a permaban from SL.</nowiki>

[13:18] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: hmm, good job Baker wasn't here</nowiki>

[13:18] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ok gotta go</nowiki>

[13:18] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Thanks for coming</nowiki>

[13:18] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc andrew</nowiki>

[13:18] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: bye Andrew</nowiki>

[13:18] Inara Pey<nowiki>: Andrew, quick Q</nowiki>

[13:18] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: thx Andrew</nowiki>

[13:18] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Thank you, Andrew.</nowiki>

[13:18] Inara Pey<nowiki>: "cacheable" is objects which have not changed outward appearance or transformed in the last two minutes? I was under the impression from Richard it was a minute?</nowiki>

[13:18] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: bye all</nowiki>

[13:19] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: u guys do have permanent ban hammer</nowiki>

[13:19] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Inara,I made it two minutes because temp-on-rez objects are returned after 1 minute with about 10 sec of slop</nowiki>

[13:19] Inara Pey<nowiki>: Cool</nowiki>

[13:19] Inara Pey<nowiki>: That answers the other question</nowiki>

[13:19] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: that way I didn't have to add any special logic for checking for temp-on-rez objects</nowiki>

[13:20] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but most objects don't change very often</nowiki>

[13:20] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: and the old definition of "cacheable" was more restrictive -- some objects were not cacheable if they had certain script calls inside</nowiki>

[13:20] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: even if they never changed appearance</nowiki>

[13:20] Inara Pey<nowiki> nods</nowiki>

[13:20] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Andrew, did you see what kind of blog this person that came here has?</nowiki>

[13:20] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: bye all</nowiki>

[13:21] Inara Pey<nowiki>: Great info, thank you, Andrew</nowiki>

[13:21] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc</nowiki>

[13:21] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: No Mona</nowiki>

[13:21] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: He's been posting RL information and pictures of other SL users.</nowiki>

[13:21] Inara Pey<nowiki>: Ciao, Ima</nowiki>

[13:21] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: See you, Ima.</nowiki>

[13:21] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: And possibly hacking accounts.</nowiki>

[13:21] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: it's at [edited]</nowiki>

[13:21] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: I think your abuse handling team would love to go after him.</nowiki>

[13:22] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: interesting Mona, I'll ask them to take a look</nowiki>

[13:22] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Good call, Andrew.</nowiki>

 
[[Simulator_User_Group]]
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Viewer 2 Microsoft Windows Builds

2013-10-22T14:59:00Z

Andrew Linden: /* Install required development tools */

{{multi-lang}}

Philosophy: to keep it brief, this page should only include steps we KNOW ARE NEEDED, not random hints. Extra details or open issues can go on the talk page.

{{KBnote|Following this recipe will probably take 6 to 12 hours of wall-clock time, and 2 to 6 hours of your time, if you're starting from a fresh Windows XP/Vista/7 system.}}

{{KBcaution|If you want alter the build instructions please try to have a discussion with at least one person on [irc://irc.freenode.net/opensl #opensl on Freenode]. There are language and stylistic conventions we try to follow and we want to make sure any change to these instructions is tested in a number of build environments before being published here.}}
{{CompileNav}}

== Establish your programming environment ==

This is needed for compiling any viewer based on the LL open source code and only needs to be done once.

=== Install and update Visual Studio and SDKs ===

*Install [http://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/en-us/products/2010-editions/visual-cpp-express Visual C++ 2010 Express] (Web install) or [http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9709969 Visual C++ 2010 Express] (ISO)
*Install [http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/en/details.aspx?FamilyID=a7b7a05e-6de6-4d3a-a423-37bf0912db84&displaylang=en Microsoft Visual C++ 2010 Redistributable Package]
*Install [http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/en/details.aspx?FamilyID=6B6C21D2-2006-4AFA-9702-529FA782D63B Windows SDK for Windows 7 and .NET Framework 4] (Web install) [Note: uncheck the Redistributable Package option to prevent installation failure] or [http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/en/details.aspx?FamilyID=35aeda01-421d-4ba5-b44b-543dc8c33a20 Windows SDK for Windows 7 and .NET Framework 4] (ISO)
*Install [http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/en/details.aspx?displaylang=en&FamilyID=3021d52b-514e-41d3-ad02-438a3ba730ba DirectX SDK (June 2010)]
** If you get the S1023 error during installation, refer to [http://blogs.msdn.com/b/chuckw/archive/2011/12/09/known-issue-directx-sdk-june-2010-setup-and-the-s1023-error.aspx this page].
*Run [http://www.update.microsoft.com/microsoftupdate/v6 Microsoft Update] and keep running it until no updates are needed. This may take more than 6 iterations on older versions of windows.
** The link above only works when opened in Internet Explorer.
** For windows 8, you need to use the desktop windows update window ('''Control Panel\System and Security\Windows Update'''). The rest is the same as Windows 7.
** For Windows Vista and Windows 7, you need to select "Get updates from other Microsoft products" to get the updates for Visual Studio.
** For Windows XP, use the provided link above. The Windows Update menu item on your computer is not the correct updater to use.
** During the update cycles make sure you have picked up [http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/en/confirmation.aspx?FamilyID=75568aa6-8107-475d-948a-ef22627e57a5 Microsoft Visual Studio 2010 Service Pack 1] (Web install) or [http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=210710 Microsoft Visual Studio 2010 Service Pack 1] (ISO)
*If you are running VS2010 under anything older than Windows 7, then you might need to install the "Windows Automation" library to avoid seeing VS2010's UI crawl like a tortoise. [http://support.microsoft.com/kb/981741 Here is the relevant MS support article].

=== Install required development tools ===

{{KBnote|The order of the following installations should not matter.}}
{{KBnote|If the installer for a particular package does not update your PATH environment variable you will have to do this manually.}}

* '''CMake''' ([http://www.cmake.org/HTML/Download.html download CMake])
** This should be version 2.8.8 (or above in the 2.8.x series).
**Add the <code>\bin</code> directory to your path.
* '''Python''' (either [http://www.python.org/download/ Standard Python] or [http://www.activestate.com/activepython/downloads ActivePython])
** Version 2.7.1 works with the build scripts.
* '''Mercurial''' (either [http://tortoisehg.bitbucket.org/ TortoiseHg] or [http://mercurial.selenic.com/ Mercurial Hg])
**Create a new file <code>%USERPROFILE%\Mercurial.ini</code> and in it put your Second Life name and optionally your email address:
[ui]
username = John Doe <john@example.com>
* '''Cygwin''' ([http://www.cygwin.com/ download Cygwin])
** When you run the cygwin setup utility make sure you have selected to install '''unzip''' (under "Archives"), '''bison''', '''flex''', '''patchutils''' (all located under "devel"), '''curl''' (under "Web"), and '''m4''' (under "interpreters"). Do not install Cygwin Python or Mercurial. You won't need to use the Cygwin shell for anything.
**Add the <code>cygwin\bin</code> directory to the '''very end''' of your path and make sure it stays that way.

=== Install optional development tools ===

* [http://code.google.com/p/unsis/downloads/list Unicode NSIS (Nullsoft Scriptable Install System)]
** This is the package installer used to build <code>Second_Life_<version-code>_LindenDeveloper_Setup.exe</code>. You only need this package if you are going to distribute the viewer you compile or if you want to install it locally.
*: In the [[#Configuring_the_Viewer|Configure VS2010 step]] below you will need to add a line in the '''Executable Directories''' section:
*:* 64 bit systems use <code>%ProgramFiles(x86)%\NSIS\Unicode</code>
*:* 32 bit systems use <code>%ProgramFiles%\NSIS\Unicode</code>
* [http://notepadplusplus.org/ Notepad++]
** You need to use an editor that conforms to the [[Coding Standard]]. In particular, you must not check in files with DOS line endings except in very limited circumstances; see [[How to avoid DOS line endings in Windows tools]].
* [[Mercurial_Tools]] (strongly recommended)
** When you are following these instructions you will be updating the <code>%USERPROFILE%\Mercurial.ini</code> file you created when you installed Mercurial.

=== Install Autobuild ===
* Follow the directions at [[Autobuild#Getting_Autobuild|Getting Autobuild]] to install Autobuild.

* Add an environment variable, so that autobuild doesn't default to using (or trying) older compiler versions:
** Right-click "My Computer" and select '''Properties''' or press the windows logo key and the pause key at the same time.
** For XP, when the Properties dialog opens, click the '''Advanced''' tab followed by the '''Environmental Variables''' button. This will open a new window with a list of System and User variables. For Vista and later, when the System Properties window opens, click the '''Advanced system settings''' on the left column, then click '''Environment Variables...'''
** In the User section, click '''New'''. Set '''Variable Name''' to AUTOBUILD_VSVER and set '''Variable Value''' to 100.
** Click the OK/Close buttons to close all the windows.

=== Configure VC2010 ===
While you may choose to use autobuild for all your compiling you still need to establish certain settings internal to VC2010.

*Start the IDE.

*Navigate to '''Tools''' > '''Options''' > '''Projects and Solutions''' > '''Build and Run''' and set '''maximum number of parallel projects builds''' to <code>1</code>.
*(VC Express only) Enable Tools > Settings > Expert Settings to get the Build (and other) menus. If you already have a '''Build''' menu you do not need to perform this step.

{{KBnote|The following steps require an open visual studio project. It does not matter which project you use, as you will only change some global settings used by all projects when they are opened. The open project itself won't be changed.}}

You will need to set a number of paths.
* Open any existing project you may have or make a New Project.

* Navigate to '''View''' ( > '''Other Windows''' ) > '''Property Manager'''. You will see Property Manager as a pane on the left side.

At the bottom on the Solution Explorer you will see three tabs.

*Click the one on the right labeled '''Property Manager'''. (The name may be somewhat truncated.)

[[File:VS2010_Property_Manager.PNG|100px]]
[[:File:VS2010_Property_Manager.PNG|Example image]]

*On the left side click to expand any project and then click again to expand the '''Release''' folder.

[[File:VS2010_Project_Config.PNG|100px]]
[[:File:VS2010_Project_Config.PNG|Example image]]

*Right click on '''Microsoft.Cpp.Win32.user''' and select '''Properties'''.

*Pick '''General'''
Set '''Enable Managed Incremental Build''' to <code>Yes</code>.

*Pick '''VC++ Directories'''.

This is where the build environment is pulled together into a functional VC2010 build system and also where much hand wringing, hair pulling, and fist pounding frustration takes place.

*Set '''Executable Directories''' to:

$(ExecutablePath)
$(DXSDK_DIR)
$(WindowsSdkDir)\Bin
C:\cygwin\bin
$(SystemRoot)

[[File:32BitExecutableDirectories.png|100px]]
[[:File:32BitExecutableDirectories.png|32 bit Executable Directories example image]]

*Set '''Include Directories''' to:

$(WindowsSdkDir)\Include
$(WindowsSdkDir)\Include\gl
$(DXSDK_DIR)\Include

[[File:32BitIncludeDirectories.png|100px]]
[[:File:32BitIncludeDirectories.png|32 bit Include Directories example image]]

*Set '''Library Directories''' to:

$(WindowsSdkDir)\Lib
$(DXSDK_DIR)

[[File:32BitLibraryDirectories.png|100px]]
[[:File:32BitLibraryDirectories.png|32 bit Library Directories example image]]

== Set up your source code tree ==

Plan your directory structure ahead of time. If you are going to be producing changes or patches you will be cloning a copy of an unaltered source code tree for every change or patch you make, so you might want to have all this work stored in it's own directory.

To get a copy of the source code tree:
* Open up a DOS Command window
* CD to where you want to install viewer-release. Do not have any spaces in this path.
* Do:
hg clone <nowiki>http://hg.secondlife.com/viewer-release</nowiki>

Let's say some time has gone by since you have performed the previous steps and now you want to develop a change or work on a jira. You will update your clean local repository with all the changes committed to viewer-release since you last synchronized your files:
* CD into <code>viewer-release</code>
* Do:
hg pull -u

* Move up one level from <code>viewer-release</code>
* Do:
hg clone viewer-release VWR-nnnnn
Note: <code>nnnnn</code> is the jira number. You can also clone to a name of your choosing if you are making changes not associated with the LL jira system.

== Prepare third party libraries ==
Most third party libraries needed to build the viewer will be automatically downloaded for you and installed into the build directory within your source tree during the [[#Configuring_the_Viewer|configuration step]] below. Some few need to be manually set up, though, when using an open source developer configuration (<code>Release'''OS'''</code>, <code>RelWithDebInfo'''OS'''</code> or <code>Debug'''OS'''</code>)

=== Fmod ===

{{KBcaution|FMOD is no longer available from the company that wrote it. FmodEX will be replacing it soon, and there will be updated instructions on how to incorporate it into your build. In the meantime ignore all references to building with FMOD.}}

{{KBcaution|If you are just starting out building the viewer or if you do not care for sound skip these FMOD steps. You will save some time and it is less confusing to make a non-FMOD build.}}

CD to where you want to install the 3p-fmod repository and do:
hg clone <nowiki>https://bitbucket.org/lindenlab/3p-fmod</nowiki>

CD into the <code>3p-fmod</code> directory you created and build it:
autobuild build --all

'''If the above command fails, you might have the version of bash packaged with Git in your PATH.''' Please edit your path and ensure that the Git path (e.g 'C:\Program Files (x86)\Git\cmd'), if it exists, appears AFTER 'c:\cygwin\bin'.

Package the results:
autobuild package

Update autobuild with the filename and hash just displayed. CD to the directory where you cloned viewer-release and do:

copy autobuild.xml my_autobuild.xml
set AUTOBUILD_CONFIG_FILE=my_autobuild.xml
autobuild installables edit fmod platform=windows hash=<hash> url=file:///<fmod-filespec>

Example:

copy autobuild.xml my_autobuild.xml
autobuild installables edit fmod platform=windows hash=0f196f00e7dff49f22252efb68525658 url=file:///C:/3p-fmod/fmod-3.75-windows-20110531.tar.bz2

{{KBnote|Having to copy <code>autobuild.xml</code> and modify the copy from within a cloned repository is a lot of work for every repository you make, but this is the only way to guarantee you pick up upstream changes to <code>autobuild.xml</code> and do not send up a modified <code>autobuild.xml</code> when you do an hg push.}}

== Configuring the Viewer Build ==

The basic command to configure the viewer build is

autobuild configure [-c ''configuration type'']

where ''configuration type'' is one of:
:;DebugOS
::maximum debugging information - probably not best for regular use
:;ReleaseOS
::maximum optimizations and some debugging features disabled - best performance
:;RelWithDebInfoOS
::a compromise between the above two extremes - probably best for development

you can set the default configuration type by setting the environment variable <tt>AUTOBUILD_CONFIGURATION</tt>

set AUTOBUILD_CONFIGURATION=''RelWithDebInfoOS''

If you need to modify the autobuild.xml configuration file in a way that you don't want to commit, such as having added a locally built library package (for example, see [[#Fmod|Fmod]] below), you will need to override the default configuration file by adding
--config-file ''my_autobuild.xml''
where ''my_autobuild.xml'' is the name of your local configuration file.

=== Configuration Switches ===

There are a number of switches you can specify to be passed through <tt>autobuild configure</tt> to the <tt>cmake</tt> command that creates your VS project files. These switches are added after the special argument "<tt>--</tt>". The name of each switch is followed by its type and then by the value you want to set.

autobuild configure -- -D''switch_name'':''switch_type''=''switch_value''

:;VIEWER_CHANNEL
::Sets the channel name for your viewer. See [[Channel and Version Requirements]] for how the channel name should be chosen and used.
::Quoting for string values can be tricky, especially with multiple-word values; note the combination of single and double quotes:
autobuild configure -- -DVIEWER_CHANNEL:STRING='"''channel''"'
::or use escaped double quotes:
autobuild configure -- -DVIEWER_CHANNEL:STRING="\"''channel''\""
:;FMOD (bool)
::Controls if the Fmod package is incorporated into the viewer. You must have performed the Fmod installation steps in [[#Fmod|Fmod]] below in addition to setting the switch.
:;LL_TESTS (bool)
::Controls whether or not the unit and integration tests are compiled and run. There are quite a lot of them so excluding them does save some time building, but they may detect errors that will be hard to diagnose in a full viewer. If you plan to submit changes to Linden Lab, please ensure that you have run the tests before submitting.
:;PACKAGE (bool)
::Controls whether or not the package step is run. The package step creates an installer for your viewer. You must have installed NSIS described in [[Viewer_2_Microsoft_Windows_Builds#Install_optional_development_tools]] for this to work.

{{KBnote|'''OFF''' and '''NO''' are the same as '''FALSE'''; anything else is considered to be '''TRUE'''.}}

===Autobuild Cache Directory===

In the course of building, autobuild will download and cache a fairly large number of prepackaged builds for components it needs. Most of these will not require that you change them, and autobuild will cache them so that it does not need to download them again.

The environment variable <nowiki>AUTOBUILD_INSTALLABLE_CACHE</nowiki> controls the location of the autobuild download cache directory. If you do not want the library files downloaded as part of the configure process going into your Windows <nowiki>%TEMP%</nowiki> directory define the environment variable to point to some other location you have established:

set AUTOBUILD_INSTALLABLE_CACHE=''E:\SSfiles\Libraries''

===Fmod===

Fmod is the audio library the viewer uses. If you are compiling with Fmod you will need to use a local copy of the configuration file:

set AUTOBUILD_CONFIG_FILE=''my_autobuild.xml''

At the command line in the source tree's root directory, presumably in your cloned repository (e.g. <nowiki>C:\linden\VWR-12345\</nowiki>)

Add a cmake argument to enable building with FMOD:
autobuild configure --config-file my_autobuild.xml [-c ''configuration type''] -- '''-DFMOD:BOOL=TRUE'''

Example without FMOD:
autobuild configure -c ReleaseOS -- -DLL_TESTS:BOOL=FALSE -DPACKAGE:BOOL=FALSE

Example with FMOD:
autobuild configure --config-file my_autobuild.xml -c ReleaseOS -- -DLL_TESTS:BOOL=FALSE -DPACKAGE:BOOL=FALSE -DFMOD:BOOL=TRUE

== Compiling the Viewer ==

{{KBnote|Do not be alarmed if you see groups of messages with '''warning LNK4099: PDB''' in them.}}

=== Compiling the viewer with autobuild ===
You can compile the viewer with either autobuild (the encouraged/supported method) or with the VS IDE.

When compiling with autobuild you will have the best chance of success if you work from within a preconfigured Command Prompt window. Depending on how your computer has been set up there are two possible ways to open this window and you need to find which works in your particular case:
*Method 1
**From '''All Programs''' Navigate into the '''Microsoft Visual Studio 2010''' program menu
**Click on '''Microsoft Visual Studio Command Prompt (2010)'''

*Method 2
**From '''All Programs''' Navigate into the '''Microsoft Windows SDK V7.1''' program menu
**Click on '''Windows SDK 7.1 Command Prompt'''

{{KBcaution|If you are building with Fmod and have followed the previous Fmod setup instructions AND you are now using a new command window you will need to redo the <code>set AUTOBUILD_CONFIG_FILE{{=}}my_autobuild.xml</code>.}}

*Run:

Without FMOD:
autobuild build -c [CONFIGURATION] --no-configure

With FMOD:
autobuild build --config-file my_autobuild.xml -c [CONFIGURATION] --no-configure

There are some useful switches to know about, so your commands may look like this:

Example without FMOD:
autobuild configure -c ReleaseOS -- "-DLL_TESTS:BOOL=FALSE -DPACKAGE:BOOL=FALSE"
autobuild build -c ReleaseOS --no-configure

Example with FMOD:
autobuild configure --config-file my_autobuild.xml -c ReleaseOS -- "-DLL_TESTS:BOOL=FALSE -DPACKAGE:BOOL=FALSE -DFMOD:BOOL=TRUE"
autobuild build --config-file my_autobuild.xml -c ReleaseOS --no-configure

{{KBnote|It is possible to use autobuild to do both the configure step (only needed once) and the build step with one command. I find it is clearer and saves a bit of time if these steps are done separately.}}

=== Compiling the viewer with the IDE ===

The autobuild configure step created the <code>\build-vc100</code> directory at the root of the source tree. In here is the <code>SecondLife.sln</code> solution file.

Start the IDE and open this solution.

You might want to change the build type in the drop-down located in the toolbar from '''Debug''' to '''Release''' or '''RelWithDebInfo'''.

[[File:VS2010BuildType.png|100px]]
[[:File:VS2010BuildType.png|Changing build type example image]]

You need to adjust the Platform Toolset setting.
* Select all the projects in the Solution Explorer list on the left of the screen.
** Click on the first project and scroll to the bottom of this list and {{K|shift}}-click on the last project.
* Right click on the selected list
* Navigate to '''Properties''' > '''Configuration Properties''' > '''General''' > '''Platform Toolset'''
* Change this value to <code>Windows7.1SDK</code>

* Push {{K|F7}} to start the compiler.

== Running your newly built viewer ==
=== Running from a desktop shortcut ===
* Make a desktop shortcut for <code>Drive:\your-path\build-vc100\newview\Release\secondlife-bin.exe</code>

* Right-click the shortcut
* Select '''Properties'''
* Set '''Start in:''' to <code>Drive:\your-path\indra\newview</code>

=== Running from within the IDE ===
* In the Solution Explorer pane right click on '''secondlife-bin'''
** Click '''Set as StartUp Project'''
** Pick '''Properties''' > '''Configuration Properties''' > '''Debugging'''
*** Set '''Command''' to <code>Drive:\your-path\build-vc100\newview\Release\secondlife-bin.exe</code> (adjust <code>Release</code> to the type of build you are doing, e.g. <code>RelWithDebInfo</code>)
*** Set '''Working Directory''' to <code>..\..\indra\newview</code>

== Handling Problems ==

If you encounter errors or run into problems following the instructions above, please first check whether someone else already had the same issue. A solution might be known already. See the [[#Common_Issues.2FBugs.2FGlitches_And_Solutions|issue list below]], check [[{{TALKPAGENAME}}|the talk page]] (and report useful experiences there) and search our [[issue tracker]]. Even when no description of your problem has been written down yet, someone might know about it, so get in touch with the community to [[#Getting_help|get help]].

=== Getting help ===
* Subscribe to [[OpenSource-Dev|OpenSource-Dev Mailing List]] ([https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensource-dev subscribe]) and post your question there.
* For faster response, join the general open source viewer discussion and development [[IRC]] channel [irc://irc.freenode.org/opensl #opensl on freenode]. Hopefully a helpful person is online when you ask your question.

=== Common Issues/Bugs/Glitches And Solutions ===

==== A full build happens for NVIDIA users, when an incremental compile is expected ====
If you notice that you are suffering from full compiles when you should only be performing an incremental compile, you may be affected by jira issue {{jira|OPEN-166}}. To fix this, see the instructions in [https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/OPEN-166?focusedCommentId=394563&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel#comment-394563 Dolphin Linden's comment].

==== Not being able to find objidl.h in the Microsoft Windows SDK, when compiling llwindow ====
https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/2011-April/006562.html
* Can be caused by path problems or some installation conflicts with the DirectX SDK.

==== stdint.h typedef conflicts between Quicktime and VS2010 ====
https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/2011-April/006565.html
*: Can be solved by some small edits to header files to make sure the two don't bash on each other.

==== Eliminate deprecated switches, messages, and use memory more efficiently ====

The VS2010 compiler uses a lot of memory while compiling the viewer. If you run out of memory you will start to page heavily and your compile time will become much longer. The /Zm1000 switch affects compiler memory usage.

You may see this message while compiling:
use 'EHsc' instead of 'GX'

Here is how to free up some memory the compiler allocates and to eliminate these messages:

*Edit <code>\CMake 2.8\share\cmake-2.8\Modules\Platform\Windows-cl.cmake</code>

*Replace line 156 with:
IF(MSVC10)
SET(CMAKE_CXX_FLAGS_INIT "/DWIN32 /D_WINDOWS /W3 /EHsc /GR")
ELSEIF(NOT MSVC10)
SET(CMAKE_CXX_FLAGS_INIT "/DWIN32 /D_WINDOWS /W3 /Zm1000 /EHsc /GR")
ENDIF(MSVC10)

*Replace line 172 with:
IF(MSVC10)
SET(CMAKE_CXX_FLAGS_INIT "/DWIN32 /D_WINDOWS /W3 /EHsc /GR")
ELSEIF(NOT MSVC10)
SET(CMAKE_CXX_FLAGS_INIT "/DWIN32 /D_WINDOWS /W3 /Zm1000 /GX /GR")
ENDIF(MSVC10)

*Replace line 184 with:
IF(MSVC10)
SET(CMAKE_CXX_FLAGS_INIT "/DWIN32 /D_WINDOWS /W3 /EHsc /GR")
ELSEIF(NOT MSVC10)
SET(CMAKE_CXX_FLAGS_INIT "/DWIN32 /D_WINDOWS /W3 /Zm1000 /GX /GR")
ENDIF(MSVC10)

== References ==

Tip of the hat to Nicky_Perian for [[User:Nicky_Perian/Visual_Studio_10_Autobuild]]

[[Category:Compiling viewer]]

Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.10.15

2013-10-15T23:51:23Z

Andrew Linden: Created page with "Simulator_User_Group {| | Prev 2013.10.08 | Next 2013.10.22 |} == List of Spe…"

[[Simulator_User_Group]]
{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.10.08|Prev 2013.10.08]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.10.22|Next 2013.10.22]]
|}

== List of Speakers ==
{|
|Adamburp Adamczyk
|Andrew Linden
|-
|Baker Linden
|Hexapoda
|-
|Ima Mechanique
|Jenna Felton
|-
|Jonathan Yap
|Lucia Nightfire
|-
|Mona Eberhardt
|Qie Niangao
|-
|Rex Cronon
|Ron Khondji
|-
|Simon Linden
|Yuzuru Jewell
|}

== Transcript ==
[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: We updated the main channel this morning ... the notes are here</nowiki>

[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: </nowiki>http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2013-10-14/td-p/2263271

[12:02] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Hello, Andrew.</nowiki>

[12:02] Hexapoda<nowiki>: Hello Andrew</nowiki>

[12:02] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Hi everyone.</nowiki>

[12:02] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hi andrew</nowiki>

[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I'm not sure about tomorrow's update ... we have a last-minute bug scramble</nowiki>

[12:03] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Yeah, that last minute bug was my fault.</nowiki>

[12:03] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: hi Andrew</nowiki>

[12:03] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: It is fixed but... gotta pass QA again.</nowiki>

[12:04] Simon Linden<nowiki>: So that update may not happen ... we'll be working on testing and make a late decision</nowiki>

[12:05] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: So... I was taking some video footage of scene loading of some regions with lots of objects</nowiki>

[12:06] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I brought the regions up on some old simulator code from before any of the latest interestlist work... from Dec 2012</nowiki>

[12:06] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Hello everyone</nowiki>

[12:06] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hi</nowiki>

[12:06] Hexapoda<nowiki>: Hello Mr Baker.</nowiki>

[12:06] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Hello, Mona.</nowiki>

[12:06] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: and I was reminded as to how poorly the scene used to load -- everything arrived in mostly random order</nowiki>

[12:07] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Hello, Baker.</nowiki>

[12:07] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: do you all remember how the floor of this meeting used to show up very late?</nowiki>

[12:07] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: When was the last time that happened to anyone here?</nowiki>

[12:07] Simon Linden<nowiki>: oh yeah, that used to be pretty bad</nowiki>

[12:08] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I found a very small room in one of my test regions</nowiki>

[12:08] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: so I logged out while standing in this closet, cleared my cache, and logged back in...</nowiki>

[12:08] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: on the old simulator code you could see the world streaming in and then BAM! the walls of the room would obscure everything</nowiki>

[12:09] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: on the new code... the walls are there as soon as the login curtain raises</nowiki>

[12:09] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: not that the scene loading is perfect now, but some of you may remember... it used to be much worse</nowiki>

[12:09] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: that remembers me on bug with prims not load at all displying damaged house. is it this?</nowiki>

[12:10] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: It is related Jenna... but the behavior I was talking about was objects showing up late</nowiki>

[12:10] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: ah, ok</nowiki>

[12:10] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: what happened when u came out of it andrew?</nowiki>

[12:11] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: if they never show up... or require you to waggle your camera around before they show up... is probably a related but distinct bug</nowiki>

[12:11] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: when I left the closet you mean? Oh... was that a setup?</nowiki>

[12:12] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: heheh</nowiki>

[12:12] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Ok, I'm done with my little tangent.</nowiki>

[12:13] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: did the rest of the house wwas already rezzed</nowiki>

[12:13] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Are there any topics or questions people want to bring up?</nowiki>

[12:13] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Yes, the rest of the world had rezzed by the time I walked out of the room.</nowiki>

[12:13] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I have one, heh</nowiki>

[12:13] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: take a guess what it is</nowiki>

[12:13] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: was the rest of the house already rezzed*</nowiki>

[12:13] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: (I do think scene loading is much improved over, say, a year ago.)</nowiki>

[12:13] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: -Extremely high Avatar Render Weights reported to the server are now capped at 500,000 (BUG-4010[c])</nowiki>

[12:14] Simon Linden<nowiki>: ok, what about that, Lucy?</nowiki>

[12:15] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Oh yes! BUG-772. Since Saturday, I've been experiencing my homestead's memory becoming full and then I was getting the "unable to create item that has caused problems in this region" error message. Is this a bug that has relapsed?</nowiki>

[12:15] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: what does it mean capped?</nowiki>

[12:15] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The server will take any report over 500k and treat it as 500k</nowiki>

[12:16] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: so now ARW by script is pretty much goign to be a useless metic?</nowiki>

[12:16] Simon Linden<nowiki>: No, you should consider anything close to 500k as just "way too high"</nowiki>

[12:17] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: 500k is pretty common though</nowiki>

[12:17] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: lol I consider anything over a 1K as way too high :-)</nowiki>

[12:17] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: the thing is that ARW nr is what determines if somebody is not allowed access in sim</nowiki>

[12:17] Simon Linden<nowiki>: No, it's not. It's about 1% of the people</nowiki>

[12:17] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: [12:16:24] PSG Security AID (Mauve): Denim Erin(Age: 1424, In Sim: 13 seconds) - 3a93cab3-ecf1-4371-bcf1-c0ea2f22a22c - High Avatar Render Weight (532612) - *Unknown Object Name* - <116,95,34> - Creator: *Unknown Creator*</nowiki>

[12:17] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I just got that report just now, lol</nowiki>

[12:18] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Jonathan, I *just* realized that the email you sent me about default perms for new objects had fallen off my radar.</nowiki>

[12:18] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I will have no use for ARW by script if it doesn't report actual values</nowiki>

[12:18] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I will write a reply now.</nowiki>

[12:18] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Thank you Andrew</nowiki>

[12:18] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: I thought you and Oz might have been working on something before writing back</nowiki>

[12:18] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The system is a compromise that's needed because some people will try to game it</nowiki>

[12:19] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: so you weren't able to come to a solution to deter obfuscation</nowiki>

[12:19] Simon Linden<nowiki>: You should not trust the values too much ... they are from viewers, which (don't take this personally, anyone) can not be trusted to be accurate</nowiki>

[12:19] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I can't use values capped at 500k, lol</nowiki>

[12:20] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: to me it would be a waste of resources not returning what is sent</nowiki>

[12:20] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Actually, why not? Anything anywhere near 500K is obviously griefing.</nowiki>

[12:20] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: not really</nowiki>

[12:20] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: values over 2 million I would be worried about</nowiki>

[12:21] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I see a fiar amount of 500k+ ARW values daily</nowiki>

[12:21] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: hmm. I guess those are two-person sims. :p</nowiki>

[12:21] Simon Linden<nowiki>: 500k is at the very high end of usage ... really, anyone near that in a public place is hogging your viewer display power</nowiki>

[12:21] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: mostly with peopel wearing lots of jewelry</nowiki>

[12:21] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: make it to cap at the level the object owner themselves show :)</nowiki>

[12:21] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hair and shoes r killing graphics cards:(</nowiki>

[12:22] Simon Linden<nowiki>: If you hop around a lot and gather data from your own viewer reports that show different numbers, Lucy, I'd be interested in the data</nowiki>

[12:22] Baker Linden<nowiki>: I wanted to give an update on group bans: I'm currently working through the bugs found by internal QA testing, trying to fix them as quickly as I can. Later today I'll be doing another round of code reviews, and hopefully everything there will go smoothly.</nowiki>

[12:23] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I'm just curious why a cap was deemed necessary at all</nowiki>

[12:23] Simon Linden<nowiki>: But I did a reasonable survey of regions and had some help from people here ... the average is near 100k</nowiki>

[12:23] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yes, avg is low</nowiki>

[12:23] Simon Linden<nowiki>: if you're up by 500k - you're using roughtly 5x the viewer render resources as everyone else</nowiki>

[12:24] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Good to hear the group bans are coming along. A bunch of folks eager for those.</nowiki>

[12:24] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Speaking of which, Simon, I still owe you data on this. But here, Firestorm reports that the highest ARW here is about 162K.</nowiki>

[12:24] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Also remember that SL is not doing anything with this data ... it's up to scripters and land owners to react</nowiki>

[12:24] Simon Linden<nowiki>: So I can imagine a popular club maybe sending a warning IM to someone who's really complex</nowiki>

[12:25] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: right, but I'd rather see high numbers than caps at 500k to make that call</nowiki>

[12:25] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: it was going to be in teh scripters hands anyway</nowiki>

[12:25] Simon Linden<nowiki>: the big problem with high numbers is not trusting them</nowiki>

[12:25] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: However, I've seen people who wear lots of mesh drive ARW up a lot. Complex mesh breast implants with multiple different top/nipple/piercings/whatever layers are major contributors to ARW.</nowiki>

[12:25] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: don't certain security devices have options to warn/eject/ban if ARW etc is too high?</nowiki>

[12:25] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: Mona, now that's research I could get behind.</nowiki>

[12:25] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: u also can't trust small numbers either</nowiki>

[12:26] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: only bot backed systems do</nowiki>

[12:26] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: until now</nowiki>

[12:26] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: some orbs have a very similar function based on avatar script limits I think</nowiki>

[12:26] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I couldn't tie moderation toa system if there is no anti obfuscation means in place</nowiki>

[12:26] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Ima, I'll tell you that both Lolas and Vstrings can significantly drive your ARW up by at least 100K.</nowiki>

[12:26] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: so ARW by script is useless to me, esp now with a cap, lol</nowiki>

[12:27] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I thought of a few replies to that, Mona, but I'm going to be responsible and keep them to myself</nowiki>

[12:27] Simon Linden<nowiki>: ;)</nowiki>

[12:28] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: aww, I was thinking about getting a clipboard and asking random strangers if I could inspect their breasts ;-)</nowiki>

[12:28] Simon Linden<nowiki>: well, I hope some people can find it useful within it's limitations. As it currently works, it should give scripts a good idea if some people are extra-costly. It's up to the scripter to handle that well or not</nowiki>

[12:28] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: can i poke them? that is a nice question. lol</nowiki>

[12:29] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: it will ultimately be a ref for admin present to visually investigate</nowiki>

[12:29] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: what about make logarithmical costs? every 10-times increase the ARW by 1, so 500k would be about 4 and 5 will be with 100K, and you not know if it is 100.000 or 900.000</nowiki>

[12:29] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: since it can't be trusted to work on its own w/o the secure readings</nowiki>

[12:30] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Also, sculpted jewellery can increase ARW a lot.</nowiki>

[12:30] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and in that regard, what about </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-2467<nowiki> has there been any consideration on it?</nowiki>

[12:30] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: And there are some content creators (like Neurolag) who keep on putting 1024x1024s even in the tiniest objects.</nowiki>

[12:30] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is half over</nowiki>

[12:31] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: my only interest in ARW by script was hopeful detection of idiots wearing sculpt laggers</nowiki>

[12:32] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Speaking of which, Simon, I still owe you data on this. But here, Firestorm reports that the highest ARW here is about 162K.Also, I want to point you people to BUG-772; basically, this weekend I experienced physics memory getting full (after extensive and repeating terraforming and region rebaking).</nowiki>

[12:32] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Scratch the previous one, I mistyped.</nowiki>

[12:32] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: but there are too many complications with the method of operation to make that possible</nowiki>

[12:32] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: want to point you people to BUG-772; basically, this weekend I experienced physics memory getting full (after extensive and repeating terraforming and region rebaking).</nowiki>

[12:32] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Mona - sculpted jewelry is a perfect example of bad building practices. While they can be beautiful, that level of geometry detail and texturing in a small item is just a lot of work to draw.</nowiki>

[12:33] Simon Linden<nowiki>: It's fine for photography or in a lowly populated spot, but wearing it to a crowded region slows everyone down</nowiki>

[12:33] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: can we have the option of not rendering attachments that people wear?</nowiki>

[12:33] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Mona, FS's current release is using LL's 3.5.3 viewer's values, the ARW calc was changed when materials came along</nowiki>

[12:33] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: the new FS beta has the correct current calc</nowiki>

[12:33] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Perhaps instead of ARW (which is is an almalgamation of untrusted data from viewers) the server should be supplying some other data, like: number of distinct sculpts, number of prims, number of distinct textures, number of lights, and other bits.</nowiki>

[12:33] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Thanks Lucy.</nowiki>

[12:33] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: np</nowiki>

[12:34] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: that would help andrew</nowiki>

[12:34] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: or in addition to the averaged ARW score</nowiki>

[12:34] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Andrew: </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7585

[12:34] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: Is there any way to calculate a number by servers? Because you know already how a viewer displays everything, you should be able to repeat that process by servers :) and abstract some viewer specific stuf like particles what one can deactivate anyways</nowiki>

[12:34] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: why was streaming cost targeting agents never enabled?</nowiki>

[12:35] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: can we know how many veritices a sculpt or a mesh have?</nowiki>

[12:35] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: vertices*</nowiki>

[12:35] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: the viewer knows that Rex</nowiki>

[12:35] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: I think Andrew got the idea i meant :)</nowiki>

[12:35] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Jenna -- we went down that route, but much of the info is stuff the server never looks at</nowiki>

[12:35] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: ok</nowiki>

[12:35] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Actually, the server only knows the number of vertices in the collision shape of the mesh</nowiki>

[12:35] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: well. there is no lsl function that returns such info</nowiki>

[12:35] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: not the render shape.</nowiki>

[12:36] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The server doesn't look inside a lot of the data ... it might just say you have attachments A, B and C, but it never looks at the details to draw them like the viewer does</nowiki>

[12:37] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Hrm right... the texture data on mesh... the server does not know about those</nowiki>

[12:37] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I think... maybe it does know the texture UUID, but not the resolution? I'd have to look at the code.</nowiki>

[12:37] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I'm not even sure it looks at mesh attachment shapes at all</nowiki>

[12:38] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: oh right Simon, it knows that it doesn't have to include those shapes in the physics engine</nowiki>

[12:38] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: so it probably doesn't load the data</nowiki>

[12:38] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: at least... on login or TP arrival</nowiki>

[12:39] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: The land impact is calculated on server, i beleive. That should be posible for attachments too. The problem remains stil, the calculated number will be pretty abstract</nowiki>

[12:39] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: well, it was an idea, and might still be worth doing -- whatever _useful_ info that server has about avatar complexity could be made available</nowiki>

[12:40] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: perhaps the true ARW number should be stil taken from viewer but work in attachments olny atached to agend using the viewer</nowiki>

[12:41] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yes ... in the end, there's a big question about how important and crucial this information is ... it would take a lot of work to get consistent, accurate numbers, and the real value, I think, is being able to find and nudge the high-cost avatars to clean up a bit</nowiki>

[12:41] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: so you can ban griefer away with an object misusing that feature</nowiki>

[12:41] Simon Linden<nowiki>: You can do whatever you want with the numbers :)</nowiki>

[12:42] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Not sure what problem we're trying to solve here. Is the concern that griefers will briefly wear hypercomplex attachments to crash other viewers, before those viewers can report their avatar complexity to the server?</nowiki>

[12:42] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yes</nowiki>

[12:42] Simon Linden<nowiki>: There's been a lot of talk over the years about enforcing limits on AVs ... but there's an interesting issue, which is how to handle it</nowiki>

[12:42] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: timing is critical when deterring that scenario</nowiki>

[12:42] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: I can see how that could happen, yeah.</nowiki>

[12:42] Hexapoda<nowiki>: You can do whatever you want with the numbers, so let us divide by zero.</nowiki>

[12:42] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: some clients will crash instantly, some will lag and time out after 100 sec</nowiki>

[12:43] Simon Linden<nowiki>: You can't be just blocking and banning someone ... they might be clueless and are just showing off their new awesome jewelry</nowiki>

[12:43] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: right</nowiki>

[12:43] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: okay, so ultimately it's up to the viewer's rendering pipeline to protect itself.</nowiki>

[12:43] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: true Simon, but you can eject them from your sim with a polite message why</nowiki>

[12:43] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Simon, regarding "cleaning up", I went down Penny Patton's route; replaced textures with 128x128s or even 64x64s (some I even made by taking a screenshot of the viewer while editing the offending item), removing scripts, removing mesh/sculpt layers and parts I don't intend to use...</nowiki>

[12:44] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: and when the viewer is enforced to report the ARW to the servers so it can not TP to a sim with set ARW limit, and the reported number is than delivered by servers to any script wanting it... quite like it was with the backed textures before SSA?</nowiki>

[12:44] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: The true solution is to make the viewer smarter -- it should know to knot render a 1024 texture on a small object, and it should know not to render an expensive avatar in full glory.</nowiki>

[12:44] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: I can say I was able to to reduce the render weight by 50%-70%.</nowiki>

[12:44] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: huh? how did I type 'knot' instead of not?</nowiki>

[12:44] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I'm not concerned with people wearing lots of jewelry, I'm concerned about them wearing sculpt laggers which yield ARW in the multiple millions</nowiki>

[12:45] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: typing and eating birthday cake never go toegether Andrew</nowiki>

[12:45] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Maybe you were thinking of nawa shibari, Andrew.</nowiki>

[12:45] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: yes 4 smarter viewers. but we the user must be the ones that determine how smart it is, what removes and what doesn't</nowiki>

[12:45] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: Andrew, got autocomplete on your viewer ;-)</nowiki>

[12:45] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The reporting system isn't instant, Lucy - I'm not sure many people will stick around long enough to report those values</nowiki>

[12:46] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yeah, thats teh problem, most users are not tech savy and don't bother with many settings</nowiki>

[12:46] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yeah, Simon that was one of the three problems of the current implementation, lol</nowiki>

[12:46] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: the averaging over time thing, the cap, the obfuscation potential</nowiki>

[12:46] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: Display the own ARW in the Apperance window. And use colors white blue green yellow red :)</nowiki>

[12:47] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: no one would misnotice that</nowiki>

[12:48] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: btw. why do i sometimes see "hippos" on the bottom right of viewer screen?</nowiki>

[12:49] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: are you on FS?</nowiki>

[12:49] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: no</nowiki>

[12:49] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Rex, you found the easter egg</nowiki>

[12:50] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i mean the word not an actual hippo:)</nowiki>

[12:50] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: that is a little joke in the viewer, for a while it was missing but it got put back a while ago</nowiki>

[12:51] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: u r pulling my leg. aren't u?</nowiki>

[12:51] Ron Khondji<nowiki>: ctgrl - alt- shift - h</nowiki>

[12:51] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: no. Someone else chime in here too</nowiki>

[12:51] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Develop / Consoles / Badge</nowiki>

[12:51] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: No. The word "HIPPOS" was randomly inserted in certain strings in the original SL viewer</nowiki>

[12:51] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Also, I've been seeing high Agent timing in almost any RC region I go to with other peopel present, what is up with that</nowiki>

[12:51] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: so no, he's not pulling your leg</nowiki>

[12:52] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i think i might have pressed that key combo</nowiki>

[12:52] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: hey it does owrk</nowiki>

[12:52] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: its causing the old swinging timing issue that used to eb a probelm before net timing was stablized</nowiki>

[12:52] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: oh really Lucia? That is interesting.</nowiki>

[12:52] Baker Linden<nowiki>: addText(xpos, ypos+(y_inc/2), llformat("Hippos!", RAD_TO_DEG * LLViewerCamera::getInstance()->getView()));</nowiki>

[12:52] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Andrew take a look at regions, Kenophobe or Shiromani and you'll see what I mean</nowiki>

[12:53] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: someone write a jira, "Hippos!" is not localized :)</nowiki>

[12:53] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: lol. i was thinking i got a virus:)</nowiki>

[12:53] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Ok I'll do that.</nowiki>

[12:53] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: but I see it everywhere that has people</nowiki>

[12:53] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Agent timing in those regions is avg 5 - 6 ms</nowiki>

[12:53] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: when it used to be liek 1.5</nowiki>

[12:54] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: thanks guys for clearing that out:)</nowiki>

[12:54] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and in regions with less than a dozne peopel on teh groudn and no high obejct counts, I've been seeing 3 ms avg</nowiki>

[12:54] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Yeah, I'll definitely have to try to verify that.</nowiki>

[12:54] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: its def impacting scrit timing and total timing</nowiki>

[12:54] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: *script</nowiki>

[12:55] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: in fact, most of the time, total timing does not = the total of all timings, its like theres some missing timing not being reported</nowiki>

[12:55] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is almost over</nowiki>

[12:55] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: like I see a 33ms avg for total timing and the total should really be 22</nowiki>

[12:56] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: 22 would correspond to 45 fps, but you're seeing 33 ms reported when the fps is 45?</nowiki>

[12:57] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: not fps, Total Frame Time</nowiki>

[12:57] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Net, Physics,Sim,Agent,Image, Script, Spare dont't total that metric</nowiki>

[12:57] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: right. 45 fps is equivalent to 22 ms per frame</nowiki>

[12:57] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: in those regions you'll see what I mean, lol</nowiki>

[12:58] Simon Linden<nowiki>: 33 ms isn't unusual ... you'll get that if the sim is running 30 fps</nowiki>

[12:58] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: so 33 ms per frame would be 30 fps</nowiki>

[12:58] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: btw. there is a weird bug. u go to a sim an after a few seconds all your attachments detach. i hope is not another weird key combo that i entered by mistake:)</nowiki>

[12:59] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Rex, you're seeing that where? RC channel? or somewhere else?</nowiki>

[12:59] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: sounds like that bomb again</nowiki>

[12:59] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: sandbox weapons testing sim</nowiki>

[12:59] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: btw, simon I finally made a SEC on that so I can ref soemthing whenever I bring it up again</nowiki>

[13:00] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: lucy. attachments work for a few seconds, and suddenly go missing</nowiki>

[13:00] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Rex, that can happen if they didn't didn't get transfered on teh tp</nowiki>

[13:00] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: and appeear after a whie Rex? or you must reattach everything</nowiki>

[13:00] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: your HUDs will probably stay though, but not show any info on select</nowiki>

[13:00] Meeter<nowiki>: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group</nowiki>

[13:00] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and won't work</nowiki>

[13:00] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i should that attachements show and scripts in them work for a few seconds after u loggin the sim</nowiki>

[13:01] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: nothing come back</nowiki>

[13:01] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: "file the bug report" :)</nowiki>

[13:01] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: had to go to a different sim and wear everything</nowiki>

[13:01] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: i never experienced it</nowiki>

[13:01] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: sounds like a variant of taht bomb though , Rex</nowiki>

[13:02] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i thought so too lucy</nowiki>

[13:02] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: aside from teh visual, you'd have to leave the regions for your stuff to show up and work again</nowiki>

[13:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: if you tp somewhere else, do they re-appear?</nowiki>

[13:02] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: they don't come back simon</nowiki>

[13:03] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: that bomb has various effects depending on if the payload was abel to be rezzed, the script alone can block asset requests though</nowiki>

[13:03] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: yesterday happened for first time</nowiki>

[13:03] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i saw somthing similar happen when some weird objects collide with u. it makes u loose attachments</nowiki>

[13:03] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I've seen that issue when tping into a majorly laggign sim though, Rex</nowiki>

[13:04] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: stuff doesn't make it and dissappears</nowiki>

[13:04] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: when it is a bomb, the problem should repeat on the same region?</nowiki>

[13:04] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Is it concerned with life time of self temp rez?</nowiki>

[13:04] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: or it is an once use bomb</nowiki>

[13:04] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SEC-1352

[13:05] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Lucia, the high "Agent Time"... you noticed that in RC last week?</nowiki>

[13:05] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: its a scripted object while is working makes sim stop delivery of attchmets,</nowiki>

[13:05] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: also stops cripts from running, and rezzing from your inventory</nowiki>

[13:05] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: stops scripts*</nowiki>

[13:05] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: since last roll, Andrew</nowiki>

[13:06] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: other than that it was slow script time decay</nowiki>

[13:06] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Hrm... the main channel was updated today to be the same code as was on all the RC's last week.</nowiki>

[13:06] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: so this region is currently on that version</nowiki>

[13:06] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I don't frequent MC regions now that all my sandboxes are on RC's, heh</nowiki>

[13:06] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: ok than when you are premium you should bea ble to call a linden in live chat and tell where the bomb is right now to remove. and check logs</nowiki>

[13:07] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: "Agent Time" is currently ... ~0.35 msec</nowiki>

[13:07] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: support doesn't deal with griefer issue though</nowiki>

[13:07] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but I will go to the regions you mentioned and check it out</nowiki>

[13:07] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: here it is, yes</nowiki>

[13:07] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: thanks</nowiki>

[13:07] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: could be some content that lags the "interestlist" code</nowiki>

[13:08] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: you'll see textures and prims</nowiki>

[13:08] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: but those regions setup hasn't changed in over half a year</nowiki>

[13:08] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: btw, the "Agent time" stuff includes: sorting through objects to see what is visible, an also sending object update packets</nowiki>

[13:09] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: so if there were a lot of updates to be sent "Agent Time" would be high</nowiki>

[13:09] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I was just hoping it was a bunch of log data beign send by the latest release viewer, lol</nowiki>

[13:09] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: *wasn't</nowiki>

[13:09] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I have to go - thanks everyone for coming today</nowiki>

[13:09] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: laters</nowiki>

[13:09] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc simon</nowiki>

[13:09] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Thank you Lindens.</nowiki>

[13:10] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Thank you everyone</nowiki>

[13:10] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: ok. i guess meeting is over</nowiki>

[13:10] rcdsQueChatLog<nowiki>: Rex Cronon, you can read the log here:</nowiki>

http://rcds.nfshost.com/ques_view_chatLog.php?queOwner=llsl:Rex<nowiki>+Cronon&queName=chatLog&pg=1</nowiki>

[13:10] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: yup, see you all later</nowiki>

[13:10] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Thank you, Rex.</nowiki>

[13:10] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Thanks for coming everyone! Have a fantastic week! I'll see some of you on Thursday!</nowiki>

[13:10] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: thanks for coming</nowiki>

[13:10] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: I have to run too. Bye all. Lindens thanks</nowiki>

[13:10] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: u r welcom yuzuru</nowiki>

[13:10] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: rex, put that website url in your picks, lol</nowiki>

[13:10] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc baker</nowiki>

 
[[Simulator_User_Group]]
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| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.10.22|Next 2013.10.22]]
|}

Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.10.08

2013-10-14T16:20:55Z

Andrew Linden: Created page with "Simulator_User_Group {| | Prev 2013.10.01 | Next 2013.10.15 |} == List of Spe…"

[[Simulator_User_Group]]
{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.10.01|Prev 2013.10.01]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.10.15|Next 2013.10.15]]
|}

== List of Speakers ==
{|
|Andrew Linden
|ANSI Soderstrom
|Baker Linden
|-
|GEE McAuley
|Ima Mechanique
|Jenna Felton
|-
|Jonathan Yap
|Kennylex Luckless
|Lucia Nightfire
|-
|Mona Eberhardt
|Qie Niangao
|Rex Cronon
|-
|Simon Linden
|Skills Hak
|Talarus Luan
|-
|Whirly Fizzle
|Yuzuru Jewell
|}

== Transcript ==
[12:04] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: the chief</nowiki>

[12:04] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Hello Andrew ... I did the release news so please speak up if you have anything</nowiki>

[12:05] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I was hoping to lurk today.</nowiki>

[12:05] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hello andrew</nowiki>

[12:05] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I don't have much news.</nowiki>

[12:05] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'm trying to get some regions up on aditi to test scene loading.</nowiki>

[12:06] Baker Linden<nowiki>: I'm working really hard on trying to get everything on aditi in two weeks. I can't guarantee it (my parents are coming to visit and I have a couple days off between now and next week friday), but I'm going to try to get internal testing started and (hopefully) finished by next week, which would mean that I'll miss the deploy window next week</nowiki>

[12:06] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I don't have any bug fixes that are coming out soon.</nowiki>

[12:07] Simon Linden<nowiki>: ok, so the table's open for topics or questions</nowiki>

[12:07] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: hows work on teh avatar render by script thing?</nowiki>

[12:07] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: right baker. u don't want to hurry things and introduce new bugs;)</nowiki>

[12:07] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: llSetRemoteScriptAccessPin wont work anymore with negative pins</nowiki>

[12:07] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Indeed, Rex :)</nowiki>

[12:08] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Lucy - do you mean the avatar render weight info?</nowiki>

[12:08] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: that change you were working on</nowiki>

[12:08] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: the >1mil reporting and anti-obfuscation</nowiki>

[12:09] Andrew Linden<nowiki> looks at the llSetRemoteScriptAccessPin() implementation...</nowiki>

[12:09] Simon Linden<nowiki>: right ... the internals should be updated in our next RC release, hopefully next week</nowiki>

[12:09] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: what anti-obfuscation lucy?</nowiki>

[12:09] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: [12:09:29] llRemoteLoadScriptPin() test (src): sending script...</nowiki>

[12:09] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: negative swork for me</nowiki>

[12:09] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and ty Simon</nowiki>

[12:10] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The viewer that supports the data reports is now the standard download, btw, so there should be more and more data available</nowiki>

[12:10] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: looking forward to testing again, heh</nowiki>

[12:11] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Does the viewer send back the info even if that debug is disabled? (forgot its name)</nowiki>

[12:11] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: "RenderAutoMuteLogging"</nowiki>

[12:12] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: the viewer sends data w/ or w/o that checked afaik</nowiki>

[12:12] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yes, that just turns on extra log messages to secondlife.log</nowiki>

[12:12] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: ahh okay</nowiki>

[12:12] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I can run through those settings if anyone is interested</nowiki>

[12:12] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: ijdk if it sends values >1mil or not, but they aren't beign used by the ARW server</nowiki>

[12:13] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I mean the log data shows it sees it, but after that, unknown to me</nowiki>

[12:13] Simon Linden<nowiki>: there really isn't a ARW server ... I'm not sure what you mean by that</nowiki>

[12:13] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: whatever is doing calc on teh numbers</nowiki>

[12:13] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Whats the highest ARW thats been sent back from an avi so far? :D</nowiki>

[12:14] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: the highest used num I've seen from myself is 999,996</nowiki>

[12:14] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: it won't return a 1,000,001</nowiki>

[12:14] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I don't see a problem with llSetRemoteScriptAccessPin(). It is stored as a 32-bit signed integer and compared with signed integers.</nowiki>

[12:15] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The current highest ARW I've seen in 1,244,757</nowiki>

[12:15] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: wont work with negative numbers</nowiki>

[12:15] Simon Linden<nowiki>: is*</nowiki>

[12:15] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I can show you a 20 million right quick if you want, lol</nowiki>

[12:15] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: hahaha</nowiki>

[12:15] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki> derenders you</nowiki>

[12:15] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: you won't have to btw</nowiki>

[12:15] Simon Linden<nowiki>: ah, no thanks</nowiki>

[12:15] Simon Linden<nowiki>: It's not a High Score, really</nowiki>

[12:16] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: maybe its only in Bluesteel that it wont work with negative numbers</nowiki>

[12:16] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: its all legacy prim too, and not that harmful</nowiki>

[12:16] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: bluesteel has also llGetCameraRot broken</nowiki>

[12:16] Simon Linden<nowiki>: All the RC channels are the same code right now</nowiki>

[12:16] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: huh... yeah I was checking the main codebase</nowiki>

[12:16] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'll look in the RC codebase</nowiki>

[12:17] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I just tested on BS just now, it works too</nowiki>

[12:17] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I don't remember any changes related to that function recently</nowiki>

[12:17] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: but i dont take drugs</nowiki>

[12:17] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: why not</nowiki>

[12:17] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[12:18] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: hrm... nothing's changed ANSI. We'll have to try to reproduce it.</nowiki>

[12:18] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: ANSI, it's never too late to start.</nowiki>

[12:18] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: has a bug been entered? or are you reporting it for the first time now?</nowiki>

[12:18] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: No JIRA yet</nowiki>

[12:18] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: llGetCameraRot is reported by Wolfur Windstorm</nowiki>

[12:18] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: llSetRemoteScriptAccessPin is by me, first time</nowiki>

[12:18] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: is BUG-4024 goign to be fixed with the next RC release?</nowiki>

[12:19] Object<nowiki>: Hello, Avatar!</nowiki>

[12:19] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: Hello Object with the UUID of 9d1207b4-5a70-e98b-34c8-940556acd914</nowiki>

[12:19] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: yeah, I have a fix for the llGetCameraRot() bug. I think the fix is going into the RC update tomorrow.</nowiki>

[12:19] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yes, that should be fixed, Lucy</nowiki>

[12:19] Object<nowiki>: Hello, Avatar!</nowiki>

[12:19] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: Hello Object with the UUID of d732fce5-c1d6-4131-3620-3f1a7b29e6af</nowiki>

[12:19] Object<nowiki>: Hello, Avatar!</nowiki>

[12:19] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: Hello Object with the UUID of d732fce5-c1d6-4131-3620-3f1a7b29e6af</nowiki>

[12:20] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: great, because I found another repro angle but if its autoreturn or return due to overflow, then it should be fixed too</nowiki>

[12:20] Simon Linden<nowiki>: There was a weird conflict in the region crossing and autoreturn code ... autoreturn now won't grab objects it shouldn't</nowiki>

[12:21] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: yes, and the annoying missing inventory thing</nowiki>

[12:21] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: now if you can just fix </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7788<nowiki> lol</nowiki>

[12:21] Object<nowiki>: Hello, Avatar!</nowiki>

[12:21] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: Hello Object with the UUID of 9d1207b4-5a70-e98b-34c8-940556acd914</nowiki>

[12:21] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: works here on server</nowiki>

[12:22] Object<nowiki>: Hello, Avatar!</nowiki>

[12:22] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: Hello Object with the UUID of 9d1207b4-5a70-e98b-34c8-940556acd914</nowiki>

[12:22] Object<nowiki>: Hello, Avatar!</nowiki>

[12:22] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: Hello Object with the UUID of 9d1207b4-5a70-e98b-34c8-940556acd914</nowiki>

[12:24] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: .</nowiki>

[12:24] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[12:25] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i thought sim crashed</nowiki>

[12:25] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I played the cricket sound too</nowiki>

[12:25] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: people playing angry birds</nowiki>

[12:25] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: heh, maybe we'll have to end this meeting early</nowiki>

[12:25] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: we haven't done that in a while I think</nowiki>

[12:26] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: That's an idea--if the viewer loses contact with a region it should play a little death march sound</nowiki>

[12:26] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: I take it you haven't had a chance to look at the llSetKeyframedMotion issue yet?</nowiki>

[12:26] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I've always wanted some wild graphics eye-candy for teleports</nowiki>

[12:26] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: I use a funeral march sound clip for my region restart sound :D</nowiki>

[12:26] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Andrew, Oz said doing storm-1955 was too complicated--would you care to comment?</nowiki>

[12:26] JIRA-helper<nowiki>: </nowiki>http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-1955

<nowiki>[#STORM-1955] Add fields to the ObjectAdd packet sent to the server to support default permissions - Second Life Bug Tracker</nowiki>

[12:26] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: no Talarus, not yet</nowiki>

[12:26] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: Jonathan, I'd prefer London Calling to Death MArch ;-)</nowiki>

[12:26] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: k</nowiki>

[12:27] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I've been busy trying to get the interestlist project all finished... the viewer side of that project isn't released yet</nowiki>

[12:27] Talarus Luan<nowiki> nodnods</nowiki>

[12:27] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: My idea on how to go about that request would be to make a new packet with the needed fields; the changes to the server would not be all that great</nowiki>

[12:27] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: and little bugs keep showing up in the server code that affect the new viewer stuff</nowiki>

[12:28] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: whose viewer would play the music on loss of contact?</nowiki>

[12:28] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: the viewer that loses contact? or the other viewers who see the ghost avatar?</nowiki>

[12:28] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Simon is anyone looking at that issue that blocks asset requests from entering pending state, ie the sim bombing</nowiki>

[12:28] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: who loses contact</nowiki>

[12:29] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: at times i am not sure if i am still in or out</nowiki>

[12:29] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Not that I know of, Lucy, but I'm curious - is there a jira?</nowiki>

[12:30] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Rex, I think you might want to try turning on ShowNetStats debug variable (I think that is the correct name)</nowiki>

[12:30] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I didn't file a SEC myself. not sure if anyone else did</nowiki>

[12:30] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is half over</nowiki>

[12:30] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I'm kinda frustrated with the viewer not retrying some fetches - I see a few lost baked textures right now and it should be re-fetching those</nowiki>

[12:31] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Try changing active group tag</nowiki>

[12:31] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Sounds weird but it works</nowiki>

[12:32] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I don't see any new texture fetches</nowiki>

[12:32] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: I have a question about sim backup/restore.. is it technically possible to backup the content of one sim, and restore it to another? Is it something feasible to do for two sims you own?</nowiki>

[12:32] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: "issue that blocks asset requests from entering pending state"... I don't recognize that problem.</nowiki>

[12:32] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Maestro is aware of it I know</nowiki>

[12:32] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I'll probabyl fiel a SEC, onyl to have it be a suplicate, lol</nowiki>

[12:32] Simon Linden<nowiki>: "technically possible" is really broad, Talarus ... in the end, it's all just data</nowiki>

[12:32] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: *dupe</nowiki>

[12:33] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ok, I'll try to ask Maestro for more info</nowiki>

[12:33] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: had it used several times today in WT</nowiki>

[12:33] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: True, but there are database consistency issues which may not be apparent from us plebians on the outside.</nowiki>

[12:33] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: one time when no objects could be rezzed</nowiki>

[12:34] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: only requires one attempted rez apparently</nowiki>

[12:34] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I gave Simon the details on what the object is and where to obtain it, don't want to post that in chat, lol</nowiki>

[12:35] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Talarus, technically it is possible to move content from one region to another... however we don't have any automated tools for it.</nowiki>

[12:35] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: the "bomb"?</nowiki>

[12:35] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yes, Rez and its quiv behaviour</nowiki>

[12:35] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: *rex</nowiki>

[12:35] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: that is, I could do it but it would involve some manual file hacking</nowiki>

[12:35] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Right. I don't think that's something normally done because of the no-copy implications, and there are other issues where you have to change names, parcel info and such because they have to be unique</nowiki>

[12:35] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: So the existing automatic backups can't be cross-restored to another sim?</nowiki>

[12:35] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That's correct</nowiki>

[12:35] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: k</nowiki>

[12:36] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: technically possible... but would require new tools</nowiki>

[12:36] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Yeah, I know the no-copy issue, mainly we are interested in swapping the content of two sims.</nowiki>

[12:36] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: So there wouldn't be two copies of either</nowiki>

[12:37] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: It would be easier to just change the sims' names--if there was no charge to do a swap</nowiki>

[12:37] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: names and positions :)</nowiki>

[12:37] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Well, the issue has to do with a grandfathered sim and a non-grandfathered sim</nowiki>

[12:38] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: if onle there was a lsl function llTpObj(string simName, vector pos)</nowiki>

[12:38] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: :)</nowiki>

[12:38] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: We already asked if we could change which sim gets billed what, but they said they can't do that, so we're looking for a technical solution</nowiki>

[12:38] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: if only*</nowiki>

[12:39] Simon Linden<nowiki>: You just need to make a bot, attach, TP and drop, Rex :)</nowiki>

[12:40] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: well. i need a lsl bot:)</nowiki>

[12:40] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Andrew, I think my question about your thoughts on </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-1955<nowiki> got lost in a previous discussion</nowiki>

[12:40] JIRA-helper<nowiki>: [#STORM-1955] Add fields to the ObjectAdd packet sent to the server to support default permissions - Second Life Bug Tracker</nowiki>

[12:41] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: In an email I think Oz said you had thought this was too much trouble to do(?)</nowiki>

[12:41] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: we need creator licences... some things will never get into SL because a hand full of griefers, so i suggest a licencsing system..... i have to ask LL if iam allowed to use a function,if yes, they kick a switch and i can use this LSL function... if i make nonsens with this function, LL will revoke the usage of this licensed Functions for me..</nowiki>

[12:41] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Thank god for block function, butt LL should get temp block and block user audio as right klick option</nowiki>

[12:42] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: so scripting should be a licened function also</nowiki>

[12:42] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: ansi. u need no license. ll already owns everything and can do whatever it wants with it:(</nowiki>

[12:42] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: -.-</nowiki>

[12:43] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: ANSI, your proposal is going to put us straight on the road to moar "FIC" drama.</nowiki>

[12:43] Skills Hak<nowiki>: oh man i miss prok, she would have made a lenghty blogpost about such a suggestion</nowiki>

[12:43] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: heh</nowiki>

[12:43] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: she made</nowiki>

[12:43] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: not so long though</nowiki>

[12:43] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: what happened to her?</nowiki>

[12:43] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: There's already enough prokanoia in SL, we don't need decisions that'll fan itsflames.</nowiki>

[12:43] Skills Hak<nowiki>: she got threatened by LL Legal to cut the BS</nowiki>

[12:43] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: its flames*</nowiki>

[12:43] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: rl</nowiki>

[12:43] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Jonathan, yeah... we're not going to be changing the ObjectAdd packet format.</nowiki>

[12:44] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: btw, SCR-4 is still on my wish list. :D</nowiki>

[12:44] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: She has one? O.O</nowiki>

[12:44] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Andrew, I was thinking you could make a new packet and eventually retire the current one</nowiki>

[12:44] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: But if not that, then do you have any ideas how to proceed?</nowiki>

[12:44] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Jonathan - I think that would need some work converting the message to a new type or a capability</nowiki>

[12:44] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: my brainstorm on that idea would be...</nowiki>

[12:45] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: create a new Cap that allows a viewer to specify and query what its current default permissions are</nowiki>

[12:45] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: and then apply those perms to anything created by AddObject</nowiki>

[12:46] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Andrew, the problem is the viewer has no way to tell what is a newly made object vs. one being rezzed from inventory (in wich case the default perms should not be applied)</nowiki>

[12:46] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Oh, and any hope of getting materials added to SetPrimitiveParams?</nowiki>

[12:46] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: actually the viewer does... the viewer sends the AddObject message</nowiki>

[12:47] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: AddObject is one of the few ways to create a truly new prim...</nowiki>

[12:47] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Hmm Jonathan, have you looked at how Firestorm handles that? We can create default prims with any perms we choose.</nowiki>

[12:47] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: er... maybe it is the only way</nowiki>

[12:47] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: yes whirly, it is a terrible hack solution FS uses</nowiki>

[12:47] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Andrew, I don't think the viewer has a UUID when it sends the message to the server</nowiki>

[12:48] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: no it doesn't have a UUID yet</nowiki>

[12:48] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: why is the UUID necessary?</nowiki>

[12:48] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: what I was thinking was... the viewer first tells the simulator what its default perms should be</nowiki>

[12:48] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: If the viewer can't send the default permissions in the Add packet then it has to apply them when the object appears in the scene</nowiki>

[12:49] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: thereafter any new prim created by AddObject would inherit those perms</nowiki>

[12:49] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: until the viewer specified other perms</nowiki>

[12:49] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: and that is where the problem of not knowing if the object is oming from inventory crops up</nowiki>

[12:49] Skills Hak<nowiki>: what's wrong with the fs solution</nowiki>

[12:49] Skills Hak<nowiki>: it's been done like that since emerald days</nowiki>

[12:49] Skills Hak<nowiki>: simply update the object post rez</nowiki>

[12:50] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: I was told by the developer not to use that solution, it was too, hmm, ugly</nowiki>

[12:50] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I wonder if we could switch that to a TCP/IP message and then extend it</nowiki>

[12:50] Skills Hak<nowiki>: not sure how's that ugly</nowiki>

[12:50] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Currently there is no way to know if an object is new or being pulled from inventory</nowiki>

[12:51] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: In my scenario the viewer doesn't need the UUID because the perms are not applied after the object is created... they are applied the moment it is created.</nowiki>

[12:51] Skills Hak<nowiki>: the viewer knows</nowiki>

[12:51] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I think the only way to create a totally fresh new prim is AddObject.</nowiki>

[12:51] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i think things have to be checked server side. the viewer can fake things</nowiki>

[12:52] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Andrew, as time is running out and this is a little complicated maybe better to do this in an email -- I will send you a note and CC to Oz</nowiki>

[12:52] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: hrm.. maybe I'm mistaken what AddObject actually does</nowiki>

[12:52] Skills Hak<nowiki>: naw that code's been pretty safe since 08 ;)</nowiki>

[12:52] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'll go look at the code...</nowiki>

[12:53] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Oh I see... there is no AddObject message</nowiki>

[12:53] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I was confusing it with another...</nowiki>

[12:53] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: <.<</nowiki>

[12:53] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Yes, it is ObjectAdd</nowiki>

[12:54] Skills Hak<nowiki>: </nowiki>http://i.imgur.com/tJpoAEM.png

[12:54] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: look in lltoolplacer.cpp</nowiki>

[12:54] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ah yes, ObjectAdd, sorry</nowiki>

[12:54] Skills Hak<nowiki>: Simulator will assign ID and send message back to signal</nowiki>

[12:55] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: yup, that is the main way to create a new prim, and the viewer definitely knows about it because it sends the message</nowiki>

[12:55] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but perhaps I'm still confused....</nowiki>

[12:55] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is almost over</nowiki>

[12:56] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: I'll try to write up an email since time is running out here</nowiki>

[12:56] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Jonathan, you want to be able to build stuff with some specific perms, right?</nowiki>

[12:56] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Thank you</nowiki>

[12:56] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: yes, to apply default perms for new items</nowiki>

[12:56] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: where "build" means creating new prims, not rezzing stuff from inventory</nowiki>

[12:56] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: correct</nowiki>

[12:57] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ok, so what is wrong with my scenario?</nowiki>

[12:57] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I have a few things if people want to experiment with the latest viewer in large crowds ... here are some debug settings to try:</nowiki>

<nowiki>RenderAutoMuteFunctions 7</nowiki>

<nowiki>RenderAutoMuteRenderWeightLimit 300</nowiki>

<nowiki>RenderAutoMuteSurfaceAreaLimit 150</nowiki>

<nowiki>RenderAutoMuteByteLimit 0</nowiki>

[12:57] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: where the viewer basically says...</nowiki>

[12:57] Skills Hak<nowiki>: /profilegsaved 10</nowiki>

[12:57] Simon Linden<nowiki>: (sorry for the side-tracking, I wanted to throw that out before the end of the meeting)</nowiki>

[12:57] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: for all new prims please make the perms this: blah blah blah</nowiki>

[12:57] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: and then you make some prims</nowiki>

[12:58] Simon Linden<nowiki>: ah, that weight should be 300000</nowiki>

[12:58] Simon Linden<nowiki>: RenderAutoMuteRenderWeightLimit 300000</nowiki>

[12:58] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Andrew, the ObjectAdd packet doesn't allow that, and so the other approach is when a new object appears in the scene, that would be the other chance at setting/changing permissions</nowiki>

[12:58] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: errr most people just turned to colouted blobs on those settings :D</nowiki>

[12:58] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Oh, does that derender heavy avatars?</nowiki>

[12:58] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: but there is now easy way to tell a new object from one pulled from inv</nowiki>

[12:58] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: *coloured</nowiki>

[12:59] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: *no</nowiki>

[12:59] Simon Linden<nowiki>: It puts them in the "simple imposter" mode which is a basic colored shape</nowiki>

[12:59] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Jonathan, in my scenario the specified perms would only be applied to prims that were made by ObjectAdd</nowiki>

[12:59] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: thanks Simon. There are 4 viewers, what viewer is that, and also what viewer is the one for access rules checking?</nowiki>

[12:59] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: lol. am i an iron blob whirly?</nowiki>

[12:59] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but would be applied to ALL such prims</nowiki>

[12:59] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Oh I was set at 300, nm hehe</nowiki>

[12:59] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The current release LL one - same as the maintenance build</nowiki>

[12:59] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: until the specified prims were changed</nowiki>

[12:59] GEE McAuley<nowiki>: I have a quick question relating to Prim linking. An old issue but maybe due to some sim changes this can be revisited.</nowiki>

[12:59] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: ok</nowiki>

[12:59] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Andrew, I am missing how to tell an object was created by ObjectAdd</nowiki>

[13:00] Meeter<nowiki>: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group</nowiki>

[13:00] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: ObjectAdd is sent to the server, and some time later an object appears in the scene, but how to link those 2 events?</nowiki>

[13:00] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ok Jonathan, you can email me if you like</nowiki>

[13:00] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: ok, thanks for your time & help</nowiki>

[13:00] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: or we can talk about it more next week</nowiki>

[13:00] GEE McAuley<nowiki>: Is it possible that we can extend the prim linking fro 50+/- m to 100m?\</nowiki>

[13:00] Skills Hak<nowiki>: rez from inv would be RezObject</nowiki>

[13:01] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: GEE, go ahead with your question about prim linking</nowiki>

[13:01] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Higher prim linking gets into some weird update issues because parts are so far from the root prim</nowiki>

[13:01] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: oh I see the question was already asked...</nowiki>

[13:02] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: RenderAutoMute setting don't appear to do anything..</nowiki>

[13:02] Skills Hak<nowiki>: mm 100m chat range</nowiki>

[13:02] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: GEE... technically possible... and less of a problem now that we've fixed some parcel overlap issues</nowiki>

[13:02] GEE McAuley<nowiki>: Being that the owner of a parcel can prevent items hanging over from an adjacent parcel. Can this be revisited? It would save having to package things</nowiki>

[13:02] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: I still see quite a few imposters at those settings.</nowiki>

[13:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: oh, also crank down your "max number of non-imposter avatar" graphics preference</nowiki>

[13:02] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: They annoying flash between the colouted avatars & looking normal too</nowiki>

[13:02] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but still a problem for cross-region collisions (which don't exist)</nowiki>

[13:03] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: hrm... less of a problem with some of the new interestlist stuff that I've been working on</nowiki>

[13:03] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: I have to turn on avatar impostors for that to work, right?</nowiki>

[13:03] Skills Hak<nowiki>: [12:57:34] DebugShowAvatarRenderInfo = 130627 calls</nowiki>

[13:03] Skills Hak<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[13:03] Skills Hak<nowiki>: in one hour</nowiki>

[13:03] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: I don't think this is a feature Id leave enabled for everyday use. Its a bit annoying</nowiki>

[13:03] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but larger link distances might still introduce more weirdness on scene load</nowiki>

[13:03] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: gotta run. Thanks for the meeting guys. bye all</nowiki>

[13:04] Skills Hak<nowiki>: gotta cache them gsaveds</nowiki>

[13:04] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc ima</nowiki>

[13:04] GEE McAuley<nowiki>: TC Ima</nowiki>

[13:04] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: GEE, I wouldn't want to increase that distance yet. Primarily for the no-collisions-across-region-boundaries problem</nowiki>

[13:04] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I need to get going too ... Thanks everyone for coming today</nowiki>

[13:05] GEE McAuley<nowiki>: TC Simon</nowiki>

[13:05] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: which bothers me, but maybe not everybody else as much</nowiki>

[13:05] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: kk ciao Simon</nowiki>

[13:05] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: thanks for watching</nowiki>

[13:05] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Thank you, Simon.</nowiki>

[13:05] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Thanks Lindens</nowiki>

[13:05] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Yeah, thanks Simon, Andrew, Baker... all... have fun!</nowiki>

[13:05] GEE McAuley<nowiki>: Anything in the future for this Andrew?</nowiki>

[13:05] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Thank you, Andrew.</nowiki>

[13:05] Simon Linden<nowiki>: See you next time</nowiki>

[13:05] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc simon</nowiki>

[13:05] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: GEE, not in the near future I think.</nowiki>

[13:05] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: thanks Lindens</nowiki>

[13:05] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: See you Simon, Andrew, Baker.</nowiki>

[13:06] Baker Linden<nowiki>: thanks for coming everyone!</nowiki>

[13:06] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc baker</nowiki>

[13:06] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: thank you lindens</nowiki>

[13:06] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Thank you, Baker.</nowiki>

[13:06] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Time to get back to banning people from my group! MWA HA HA HA</nowiki>

[13:06] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: ... and Higgs got the Noble prize.</nowiki>

[13:06] GEE McAuley<nowiki>: Okis. Just would be a great to eliminate having to throw a build into a box. Thanks for the reply on that though.</nowiki>

 
[[Simulator_User_Group]]
{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.10.01|Prev 2013.10.01]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.10.15|Next 2013.10.15]]
|}

Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.10.01

2013-10-14T16:17:04Z

Andrew Linden: Created page with "Simulator_User_Group {| | Prev 2013.09.24 | Next 2013.10.08 |} == List of Spe…"

[[Simulator_User_Group]]
{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.09.24|Prev 2013.09.24]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.10.08|Next 2013.10.08]]
|}

== List of Speakers ==
{|
|Adamburp Adamczyk
|Andrew Linden
|Baker Linden
|-
|Faust Vollmar
|Ima Mechanique
|Inara Pey
|-
|Jenna Felton
|Kammi Capalini
|Kennylex Luckless
|-
|Lucia Nightfire
|MB Robonaught
|Mona Eberhardt
|-
|Nalates Urriah
|Qie Niangao
|Rex Cronon
|-
|Simon Linden
|Talarus Luan
|TankMaster Finesmith
|-
|Yuzuru Jewell
|}

== Transcript ==
[12:01] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Hi Andrew.</nowiki>

[12:01] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Hello, Andrew.</nowiki>

[12:01] MB Robonaught<nowiki>: hi Andrew</nowiki>

[12:01] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: hello</nowiki>

[12:01] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I can start off with the release news ... </nowiki>http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2013-09-30/td-p/2235869

[12:02] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hello andrew</nowiki>

[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: We didn't update anything today because the same version was all over the grid</nowiki>

[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: There will be a new maintenance release tomorrow in all 3 RC channels</nowiki>

[12:02] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Where is Baker, I has not seen him the latest times</nowiki>

[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: There's a minor change that may help group notices a little</nowiki>

[12:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: also a delete function for LSL JSON scripts</nowiki>

[12:03] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: BAKER! Helo :-)</nowiki>

[12:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: but it's not a major update</nowiki>

[12:03] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Hello Baker!</nowiki>

[12:03] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Hello everyone!</nowiki>

[12:03] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Hello, Baker.</nowiki>

[12:03] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: Speak of the chicken. Hey Baker.</nowiki>

[12:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That's my news .... Andrew, do you have anything?</nowiki>

[12:03] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hello baker</nowiki>

[12:03] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: hiya baker</nowiki>

[12:03] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: howdy baker!</nowiki>

[12:04] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Which delivery problem with that fix?</nowiki>

[12:04] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I do have a little bit of info about a vehicle region crossing bug that Maestro was working on</nowiki>

[12:04] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Simon, I dunno if you were updated about that bug yet</nowiki>

[12:04] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The ghosted objects? I was just looking at that one too</nowiki>

[12:05] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but it appears that there is a bug when vehicles cross region boundaries on parcels with autoreturn</nowiki>

[12:05] Baker Linden<nowiki>: I know I've been away from the UG for a couple weeks -- but it was because I was getting the Group Ban stuff finished up. Today I'll be working on merging the viewer code with what's in release, and I'll be working on getting up some actual builds to deploy to a grid for internal testing (it is not Aditi yet).</nowiki>

[12:05] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: in particular, if the vehicle has been on the parcel long enough to trigger autoreturn...</nowiki>

[12:05] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: it won't actually get autoreturned because someone is sitting on it</nowiki>

[12:06] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but when it tries to cross the region boundary with the rider things fall apart</nowiki>

[12:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: ah, that's the same one ... I have a proposed fix we should discuss later :)</nowiki>

[12:06] Baker Linden<nowiki>: so by the end of the day, I should have all the components deployed and ready for internal testing, and depending on how well that goes, it'll be ready for aditi soon!</nowiki>

[12:06] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ok yeah lets talk about that after this meeting</nowiki>

[12:06] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Oh yeah, I do have some items for the agenda...</nowiki>

[12:07] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: yeah, but when can we get our hands on the code, baker? :P</nowiki>

[12:07] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Hopefully we'll have a fix for that out next week Wednesday</nowiki>

[12:07] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: (1) I'm pretty much done with interestlist stuff, and I want to make a comparison video..</nowiki>

[12:07] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'm looking for a region to do the comparisons on</nowiki>

[12:08] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Need one with a giant tower in it? :p</nowiki>

[12:08] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Natoma and Ivory Tower</nowiki>

[12:08] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: (I'll be comparing the latest simulator with one that is about 6 months old, before the beginning of the intereslist work started to get deployed)</nowiki>

[12:08] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Yeah, so I'm looking for regions that are relatively object-heavy</nowiki>

[12:08] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but not necessarily very texture heavy</nowiki>

[12:08] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Tank, yeah, you will be able to grab the code once I get the Team City build. I think I need to make my viewer repo public at that time</nowiki>

[12:08] MB Robonaught<nowiki>: you may use mine i that helps</nowiki>

[12:08] Baker Linden<nowiki>: so tomorrow, provided I don't screw things up too bad</nowiki>

[12:08] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: bonus points for regions that are popular that people may recognize</nowiki>

[12:09] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Natomas Ivory Tover is a nightmare of twisted prims.</nowiki>

[12:09] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'll take a few suggestions and then later look the over and select something that will show the new scene loading performance.</nowiki>

[12:09] Baker Linden<nowiki>: But there are still a few small bugs and issues I have to work on in the code -- I'll be working on those while internal testing is happening</nowiki>

[12:09] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: looking forward to it, baker</nowiki>

[12:10] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: complicated prims don't really matter, but lots of prims will be good</nowiki>

[12:10] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Yay Baker</nowiki>

[12:10] Baker Linden<nowiki>: there's a major refactor in llpanelgroupinvite</nowiki>

[12:10] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: since that is what really stresses out the scene load system</nowiki>

[12:10] Baker Linden<nowiki>: which is what I'm trying to hand-merge today</nowiki>

[12:10] MB Robonaught<nowiki>: Kustom klassics has 12,000 prims on it</nowiki>

[12:10] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: andrew - bare rose has a lot of prims (and a lot fo 512 textures)</nowiki>

[12:10] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: the texture stuff just adds to the bandwidth that needs to be downloaded, and the texture popping can sometimes look like object load</nowiki>

[12:11] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Ok thanks... my list is currently: Bare Rose and Natoma</nowiki>

[12:11] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: oh, and Kustom klassics (12k prims is good)</nowiki>

[12:12] MB Robonaught<nowiki>: Kustom Klassics HQ if you want Andrew</nowiki>

[12:12] MB Robonaught<nowiki>: yup</nowiki>

[12:12] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Bare Rose would be a good one...</nowiki>

[12:12] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: 512 textures is nothing... we've found regions with 6k textures</nowiki>

[12:12] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Tank, the code may not be public tomorrow :) I misunderstood some stuff about our build system :)</nowiki>

[12:12] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: Endora is almost full, about 14000 prims on it</nowiki>

[12:12] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: hmmm... Michael may know of old-timey Mole content sims that are prim-heavy and texture/sculptmap-light.</nowiki>

[12:12] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: i lot of people i think know about bare rose already</nowiki>

[12:12] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'd be happy with 1k textures or less</nowiki>

[12:12] Baker Linden<nowiki>: it'll be public soon though, and before I push it to aditi</nowiki>

[12:12] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: thanks Qie, you just reminded I have soem stuff to hassle LDPW with</nowiki>

[12:13] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Ok thanks for "Endora" Jenna.</nowiki>

[12:13] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: ok, baker, ill keep an eye out for it</nowiki>

[12:13] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Uh... I had another item... but I forget what it was</nowiki>

[12:13] Baker Linden<nowiki>: is there a TPV meeting this week?</nowiki>

[12:13] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: It was last Friday, Baker</nowiki>

[12:13] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: no, baker</nowiki>

[12:14] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: was last week</nowiki>

[12:14] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Well, I can't remember what it was. I'm done for now -- maybe I'll remember later.</nowiki>

[12:14] Baker Linden<nowiki>: ok. I'll probably make it public then. I'll be going into that meeting to announce the changes and to explain what I've done to the viewer :)</nowiki>

[12:15] Simon Linden<nowiki>: ok, the invisible table is open for questions or topics then</nowiki>

[12:15] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: andrew. u might not need a full sim, just use one of those "tools" that fill the sim with prims:)</nowiki>

[12:15] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Checking to see if I understand workings of OBJECT_RENDER_WEIGHT constant for llGetObjectDetails() -- it relies on what viewers report, so in theory, couldn't a flock of TPV-wielding griefers skew the results (for example maybe getting an enemy banned from a sim, if that sim bans based on that metric) ?</nowiki>

[12:15] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Yeah Rex, I've made a few regions of test content</nowiki>

[12:16] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but I'd like to show a real "normal" region that some people are familiar with</nowiki>

[12:16] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Now that you're off the interestlist stuff, Andrew, any chance you can take a few minutes to look at SVC-7556 ?</nowiki>

[12:16] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: the simulator I'll be comparing with is long gone</nowiki>

[12:16] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: OBJECT_RENDER_WEIGHT's primary use will be for moderation we all know that, lol</nowiki>

[12:16] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but I'll bet some people will be able to remember what it was like for the scene to load in the wrong order</nowiki>

[12:17] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: "moderation" ?</nowiki>

[12:17] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: and the video I'm hoping to make will bring back "fond" memories</nowiki>

[12:17] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: haha</nowiki>

[12:17] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: hrm... 7556? I'll read it now...</nowiki>

[12:17] MB Robonaught<nowiki>: I have a question if I may....</nowiki>

[12:17] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: looking out for people with high values and doign soemthing about it</nowiki>

[12:17] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: in a nutshell</nowiki>

[12:18] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: now if only the viewer statistics floater will show the real nr of prims in the sim...</nowiki>

[12:18] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Lucy: right: that's why I think it's vulnerable to "gaming" by griefers wit naughty viewers.</nowiki>

[12:18] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yes ... OBJECT_RENDER_WEIGHT needs to be used carefully</nowiki>

[12:18] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: theres been chatter on that subject, I just don't ahve any details on how it will work</nowiki>

[12:18] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: 7556 is about keyframed objects stopping after sim restart... I might be able to get to that</nowiki>

[12:18] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I can onyl hope that it will, lol</nowiki>

[12:18] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: go ahead MB</nowiki>

[12:18] Simon Linden<nowiki>: First, the way that is calculated is likely to change ... I'm going to be working on it today, in fact</nowiki>

[12:18] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: (but yeah, mostly, I just wanted to be sure I understand how it works.)</nowiki>

[12:19] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Maestro said you and he brainstormed on it</nowiki>

[12:19] MB Robonaught<nowiki>: has there been any reports of notecards failing to open/save/or read correctly latley?</nowiki>

[12:19] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I haven't heard of any notecard problems recently.</nowiki>

[12:19] MB Robonaught<nowiki>: I'm trying to find out if it is grid wide or just my place</nowiki>

[12:19] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I'm sure you saw my jira n the concerns</nowiki>

[12:19] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: *on</nowiki>

[12:19] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'll ask Maestro later -- he keeps an eye on incoming bugs.</nowiki>

[12:19] MB Robonaught<nowiki>: or if it is viewer related</nowiki>

[12:20] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I did Lucy, and it had some good ideas. I'm sure we can do better than what we have today</nowiki>

[12:20] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Cool. Would be nice to have that fixed so I can use llSetKeyframedMotion rather than llMoveToTarget for prim animation. <.<</nowiki>

[12:20] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Andrew, talking about render weight obfuscation and impartial reporting</nowiki>

[12:20] MB Robonaught<nowiki>: thanks Andrew</nowiki>

[12:20] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: which you get atm with current render weight bugs alone</nowiki>

[12:21] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: MB, what is the region where you noticed the notecard problem?</nowiki>

[12:21] Simon Linden<nowiki>: fwiw I did some in-world gathering of AV render weights ... there's a sharp drop above 250k or so ... that's where you get into values only a few percent of people reach</nowiki>

[12:21] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yet some get very, very high values, up over 1 million</nowiki>

[12:22] MB Robonaught<nowiki>: Kustom Klassics HQ....we run cars that get the settings from notecards and they fail ever so often</nowiki>

[12:22] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: mesh hair is the reason:)</nowiki>

[12:22] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: is the current maint viewre capped at sending 1 mil values or is the ARW server capped at accepting them?</nowiki>

[12:23] MB Robonaught<nowiki>: for example we will tune down but the change won't be applied to the scripts</nowiki>

[12:23] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: more is better, right simon?</nowiki>

[12:23] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: :D</nowiki>

[12:23] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: script read notecards independ on the viewer</nowiki>

[12:23] MB Robonaught<nowiki>: please note it's the same reader code I've used for years</nowiki>

[12:23] MB Robonaught<nowiki>: right jenna</nowiki>

[12:24] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I'd have to double-check the viewer code. I'd rather not get into the exact server code since it's a lot easier to game if you know what it does ... plus I'm going to change it for next week's RC release</nowiki>

[12:24] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-4010<nowiki> & </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-4011<nowiki> are a concern with render weights atm that I found recently</nowiki>

[12:25] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: will this help with this video card crashers that are using overly complex glowy sculpts?</nowiki>

[12:25] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I may also ask for some help collecting render weight data ... I have about 500 AV samples, and that seems to produce a decent curve, but more data would be interesting</nowiki>

[12:25] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: im not sure right off what they show up for avatar weight</nowiki>

[12:26] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yes, Tank they will</nowiki>

[12:26] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: sculpt laggers run in the multi millions</nowiki>

[12:26] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Speaking of which, Tank, exactly why are GPU crashers allowed to be sold in the marketplace, *despite* hundreds of abuse reports?</nowiki>

[12:26] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: propably a popular heel store or latex store can give a good data about overloaded avatars</nowiki>

[12:26] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tankmaster. u can survive one of those complex glowy sclupts, without a video card crash:)</nowiki>

[12:27] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Lucy - the value the viewer sends is not capped. I will likely change that soon</nowiki>

[12:27] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: if you turn off alpha rendering, those sculpt crashers wont work</nowiki>

[12:27] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Maybe that's something that LL should really answer.</nowiki>

[12:27] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: they still lag u</nowiki>

[12:27] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: if you turn off rendering it won't work eitehr unless they're combined with certain otehr params, heh</nowiki>

[12:28] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: A good idea is to blacklist GFX crashers so they never load.</nowiki>

[12:28] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: ok, ty, Simon</nowiki>

[12:28] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Yes, why render-bombs are allowed on the marketplace is a question for LL. However I don't know the answer. I'll have to ask the marketplace team.</nowiki>

[12:28] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[12:29] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: good luck there</nowiki>

[12:29] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: Haha have they made better ones now that a quick ctrl-alt-shift-9 doesnt stop?</nowiki>

[12:29] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Left hand, meet right hand. Left foot, stomp on right foot. :P</nowiki>

[12:29] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: while you're at it ask Gov why they won't disc accounts that repeatedly use them abroad, lol</nowiki>

[12:29] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: In that way would it be cool to do a Blaclkist format toy can share with friends and merge.</nowiki>

[12:29] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: after several AR's</nowiki>

[12:29] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Please do, Andrew. They've had hundreds of ARs. But I really don't think they care at all - remember, these crashers were even used in an extortion scandal here in SL.</nowiki>

[12:30] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: some viewers to have a global blacklist that can be handed out to all their viewers, but its rarly used</nowiki>

[12:30] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: it is weird. i had an item that was removed from the mp(now is back) because it was in wrong section, but a crasher is not removed?</nowiki>

[12:30] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Lucy is right.</nowiki>

[12:30] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is half over</nowiki>

[12:30] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Linden Realms cheaters should not be alowed to sell in Market place.</nowiki>

[12:30] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: half of the combat HUD systems on mp have sculpt laggers and even sim crashers publicaly marketed</nowiki>

[12:31] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: You can cheat in Linden Realms? O.o Why?</nowiki>

[12:31] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: esp taht "bomb"</nowiki>

[12:31] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: it even has a vid on mp demoing the behaviour, lol</nowiki>

[12:31] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: lucy is right about combat huds:(</nowiki>

[12:31] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Basically, just ban sales of all these "combat HUDs". And maybe sack those who turn a blind eye to them despite the ARs.</nowiki>

[12:31] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Yeah, those things should be investigated and fixed pronto.</nowiki>

[12:31] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Btw, why do Linden Relms seldom start up okay, it is hard to get a hud and some tims whole regions do not work</nowiki>

[12:31] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: well, times have changed, "combat" is now lag/crash, lol</nowiki>

[12:32] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: lag/spam/crash</nowiki>

[12:32] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: lol. it has been like that at rausch forever:(</nowiki>

[12:32] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: Gotta love the SL arms race.</nowiki>

[12:32] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: (Sarcasm, don't kill me. >.>)</nowiki>

[12:32] MB Robonaught<nowiki>: lol Faust</nowiki>

[12:33] Andrew Linden<nowiki> doesn't know much about Linden Realms.</nowiki>

[12:33] Simon Linden<nowiki>: it is an arms race, definitely</nowiki>

[12:33] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: lets do some "combat" faust;)</nowiki>

[12:33] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: And the MP team should *finally* (but I'm being naive here) adopt a "ban on sight/report" policy towards combat HUDs with lag/spam/crash cunftionality.</nowiki>

[12:33] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: I noticed the new particle system params in the current release.</nowiki>

[12:33] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: functionality*</nowiki>

[12:33] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Haven't had a chance to try them out yet but are there any more planned, like maybe circular motion and animated billboards?</nowiki>

[12:33] MB Robonaught<nowiki>: tell a programmer something is impossible to code and see how long it takes for it to happen</nowiki>

[12:34] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: And maybe something should be done about in-world spyware (like clones of the infamous RedZone or the Gemini CDS Ban Relay).</nowiki>

[12:34] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: That works, unless it is the programmer saying it is impossible, then all bets are off.</nowiki>

[12:34] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Talarus - there are none that I know of</nowiki>

[12:34] MB Robonaught<nowiki>: true lol</nowiki>

[12:34] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: robonaught. it is impossible to write code that will make ll change the tos;)</nowiki>

[12:34] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: lol Rex I've never been a part of the "grief" style combat world, and even the "normal" variety is something I'm terrible at due to being behind a desk (scripting) too long.</nowiki>

[12:34] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Good question about the new particle parameters... I think the recent work there was a pet project of Runitai's</nowiki>

[12:35] MB Robonaught<nowiki>: good point rex lol</nowiki>

[12:35] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: so its not part of the ribbon stuff?</nowiki>

[12:35] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Well, pass along my thanks and encouragement to Runitai for more. :D</nowiki>

[12:35] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: faust. i don't do it either.i was just jocking:)</nowiki>

[12:35] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'll try to remember to ask Runitai about future plans when he gets back.</nowiki>

[12:35] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: The sound system needs some love at some point, too.</nowiki>

[12:35] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: I have to say, the particle blending stuff still largely eludes me, but it's all cool anyway.</nowiki>

[12:36] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: i was thinking ribbon particles are making a wire betweem the source and target, but i seem to fail in making them so</nowiki>

[12:37] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: The RedZone/etc clones are all against TOS so if Gov isnt doing anything when informed about them, thats unfortunately an enforcement failure... Not easy to fix.</nowiki>

[12:37] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Indeed. We're talking *spyware* here.</nowiki>

[12:37] Simon Linden<nowiki>: if you have any suggestions for particles, feel free to send in a BUG report as a feature request. I can't promise anything, of course, except that we will read it</nowiki>

[12:37] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: doe anyoen actually use media in sl now?</nowiki>

[12:37] Kammi Capalini<nowiki>: Hi all, I noticed something that started today, at least for me, I'm getting "script errors" that are blank</nowiki>

[12:37] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: ever since rz/quickwar etc</nowiki>

[12:37] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Well, enforcement in a free-account world is pretty pointless when it comes to griefers, anyway. The only real solution is a technical fix to remove their "toys".</nowiki>

[12:37] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Adam: my question exactly</nowiki>

[12:37] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: plenty use media, lol</nowiki>

[12:38] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: i won't</nowiki>

[12:38] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: Adam, not me</nowiki>

[12:38] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: plenty use voice</nowiki>

[12:38] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Will do, Simon</nowiki>

[12:38] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i guess having somebody finding your ip is not such a big deal:)</nowiki>

[12:38] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: plenty load urls too</nowiki>

[12:39] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: Is the media-based spyware even fixable in the first place? To my knowledge the best you can do is the media filter and good information about how to spot urls that look tracker-ey.</nowiki>

[12:39] MB Robonaught<nowiki>: check youtube on that rex lol</nowiki>

[12:40] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: spyware is everywhere, lol</nowiki>

[12:40] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i wonder what happens if somebody finds a way to redirect the in-built browser to p0rn sites:)</nowiki>

[12:40] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Rex: concurrency rises?</nowiki>

[12:40] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: haha</nowiki>

[12:40] MB Robonaught<nowiki>: bunch of happy campers?</nowiki>

[12:40] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: What's appalling is that some high-profile merchants openly say they use such spyware (such as a certain shoe store *cough cough*).</nowiki>

[12:41] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: those site usually have spyware/malware for free:)</nowiki>

[12:41] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: what abotu RL spyware, anyone using Adobe Flash player? heh</nowiki>

[12:41] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Why use Flash when there's HTML5?</nowiki>

[12:41] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I don't think there's much you can do about the media-based data gathering ... you either access other urls or you don't</nowiki>

[12:42] Simon Linden<nowiki>: If you use them, you give away some info</nowiki>

[12:42] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Well, Simon, you can: ban its creators and its users.</nowiki>

[12:42] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: you can either use urls or not, use voice or nto, use media or not, lol</nowiki>

[12:42] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: alternatively, log into SL or not</nowiki>

[12:42] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: u can also use a good firewall:)</nowiki>

[12:42] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: thats evil Lucy :)</nowiki>

[12:43] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: sbt</nowiki>

[12:43] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: well, the firewall doesn't solve the alt-detection problem, which is the whole point. I mean, IP-address tracking isn't interesting otherwise.</nowiki>

[12:43] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Someone has my IP address.. for the day. ohnoez!</nowiki>

[12:43] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: too bad that the sl viewer doesn't allow me to turn off the voice executable:(</nowiki>

[12:43] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: can you use a proxy server that redirects web access outside LL servers to some sand box?</nowiki>

[12:44] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: or a prosy that hides your IP</nowiki>

[12:44] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Yeah send web requests through TOR :P</nowiki>

[12:44] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Rex hopefully that issue will eb fixed soon, they have at least two jira's accepted on that</nowiki>

[12:44] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Talarus, someone keeps a database of IPs, which are often dynamically allocated, so they can erroneously block someone who hadn't done anything. It's the same stuff as IP bans in forums.</nowiki>

[12:45] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: That's not my problem.</nowiki>

[12:45] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: That's just a dumb use of IP addresses</nowiki>

[12:45] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: and I am aware of that issue. :)</nowiki>

[12:46] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: a few years back somebody found a way to run ping.exe on my computer through the sl viewer:(</nowiki>

[12:46] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: oh</nowiki>

[12:46] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Not to mention that the lack of transparency in how this data is handled (a lack of privacy policy is illegal in many jurisdictions) should ring a few bells. After all, LL does say that its users have a right to reasonable privacy - then why not get those users that maliciously invade others' privacy out of its system?/</nowiki>

[12:46] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: this can open any door to your PC than Rex</nowiki>

[12:47] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: you can install rootkits through SL if you know how allegedly</nowiki>

[12:47] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: was before v3. hopefully is fixed</nowiki>

[12:48] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: You can't install rootkits with the official SL viewer, but maybe using malicious 3p viewers</nowiki>

[12:48] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Never say never :P</nowiki>

[12:48] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: idk, I'd have to talk to the person taht said they can, heh</nowiki>

[12:48] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Hmph -- good point.</nowiki>

[12:48] Simon Linden<nowiki>: We'd definitely like to learn how to do that</nowiki>

[12:49] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: If someone found a code exploit weakness in a 3rd-party library the viewer uses, then guess what?</nowiki>

[12:49] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: why do i get these errors?</nowiki>

[12:49] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: a buffer overrun in the LL viewer? Shocked. Shocked, I tell you!</nowiki>

[12:49] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: I'm trying to vote, Rex, but it seems there's a script error.</nowiki>

[12:49] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: well I can guearuntee you they aren't the type to come forward with how, at least in a white hat manner, heh</nowiki>

[12:49] Kammi Capalini<nowiki>: Hi all, I noticed something that started today, at least for me, I'm getting "script errors" that are blank</nowiki>

[12:49] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Mona, it only works if you vote "yes" :p</nowiki>

[12:49] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: oh. forgot. i have that thing attached. lol</nowiki>

[12:49] MB Robonaught<nowiki>: what could cause those blank errors?</nowiki>

[12:50] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: script errors or chat on the debug channel?</nowiki>

[12:50] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: More info please Kammi.</nowiki>

[12:50] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Do you have a simple script that reproduces the problem?</nowiki>

[12:50] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: QIe.. haha</nowiki>

[12:50] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: On all regions? or just certain regions?</nowiki>

[12:50] Kammi Capalini<nowiki>: that's all i have, I see a script error, I click it to read it, it's blank</nowiki>

[12:50] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yep, I understand Lucy ... but I'm sure you understand our side of it. We want to close any buffer-overruns or other invasive techniques that could compromise the viewer</nowiki>

[12:50] MB Robonaught<nowiki>: happens when you log in right?</nowiki>

[12:50] Kammi Capalini<nowiki>: yes</nowiki>

[12:51] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: oh definately</nowiki>

[12:51] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: it worked yesterday:(</nowiki>

[12:51] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Kammi, a script you wrote? Or witten by someone else?</nowiki>

[12:51] Kammi Capalini<nowiki>: when i log in</nowiki>

[12:51] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: A script that you have read access to?</nowiki>

[12:51] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Can we get a copy of the object?</nowiki>

[12:51] Baker Linden<nowiki>: see if we can repro it?</nowiki>

[12:51] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Huh... on login, so probably on an attachment?</nowiki>

[12:52] Kammi Capalini<nowiki>: might be an attachment, but didn't happen when I logged in here</nowiki>

[12:52] MB Robonaught<nowiki>: take one attachment off at a time until it stops</nowiki>

[12:52] Kammi Capalini<nowiki>: it has no name</nowiki>

[12:52] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Kammi, do you ever use the beta grid? (aditi)</nowiki>

[12:52] Kammi Capalini<nowiki>: no</nowiki>

[12:53] MB Robonaught<nowiki>: I can show her Andrew</nowiki>

[12:53] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Ok, I was just wondering if the bug reproduces there.</nowiki>

[12:53] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Rex, you're missing option 4... pie!</nowiki>

[12:53] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: later i will have to look at it</nowiki>

[12:53] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: No poll is complete without pie.</nowiki>

[12:53] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: and cake too:)</nowiki>

[12:54] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: cake is da debbil!</nowiki>

[12:54] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Kammi, if the problem were really annoying, or we had more reports of it, it is theoretically possible for us to "hijack" your account, login, and see if we can reproduce the problem.</nowiki>

[12:54] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: no way</nowiki>

[12:54] Kammi Capalini<nowiki>: will beer be provided?</nowiki>

[12:54] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: However, we're unlikely to do that in this case on the main grid</nowiki>

[12:54] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: since the bug is not serious enough.</nowiki>

[12:54] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: But the threshold is lower on the beta grid.</nowiki>

[12:55] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: No beer, unfortunately.</nowiki>

[12:55] MB Robonaught<nowiki>: I'll take here there</nowiki>

[12:55] MB Robonaught<nowiki>: her*</nowiki>

[12:55] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is almost over</nowiki>

[12:55] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: But there are some bugs that are really annoying, like a server crash on login caused by an attachment. Things like that.</nowiki>

[12:55] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: anythign good coming down the pipe aside from group banlist? heh</nowiki>

[12:56] MB Robonaught<nowiki>: well Kammi crashes way too often I wonder if it is related/expanding issue'</nowiki>

[12:56] MB Robonaught<nowiki>: no warning no lag just poofs</nowiki>

[12:56] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Besides MySQL, what other external database types can be used with LSL?</nowiki>

[12:56] Kammi Capalini<nowiki>: I never had a proplem crashing til the SSA/SSB</nowiki>

[12:57] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: BTW Kammi, if you want to try the beta grid I can enable your account there.</nowiki>

[12:57] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: Mona, anything you like</nowiki>

[12:57] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: OK Ima, thanks.</nowiki>

[12:57] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: just a matter of scripting it</nowiki>

[12:57] MB Robonaught<nowiki>: please do andrew I'll take her there</nowiki>

[12:57] Kammi Capalini<nowiki>: yes please</nowiki>

[12:57] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: Get to the Joppa!</nowiki>

[12:57] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Otherwise, the protocol for getting to the beta grid is probably to contact someone like Maestro who often helps people get more clues to the cause of bugs.</nowiki>

[12:58] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ok</nowiki>

[12:58] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: You can use whatever 3rd-party database you want on your own server, I would presume. <.<</nowiki>

[12:58] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: heh</nowiki>

[12:59] Simon Linden<nowiki>: If there is anyone here that would be interested in helping gather avatar render data, please send me an IM and I can let you know how. It takes 5-10 minutes to get a good data set</nowiki>

[12:59] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Ok Kammi, your account is enabled on the aditi grid (in theory). It doesn't actually have your inventory until you login, so the first login may take a little longer than normal as it copies your current inventory over.</nowiki>

[12:59] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Gather as in present avatars to be analyzed, or go out and gather / analyze them?</nowiki>

[13:00] Kammi Capalini<nowiki>: ok, thanks Andrew</nowiki>

[13:00] Kammi Capalini<nowiki>: :)</nowiki>

[13:00] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: not knew you must be enabled first to get to aditi... i just logged there without asking anyone ...</nowiki>

[13:00] Meeter<nowiki>: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group</nowiki>

[13:00] MB Robonaught<nowiki>: great meeting all thanks</nowiki>

[13:00] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: sorry. simon. not that many normal avatars at swt</nowiki>

[13:01] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: It was my understanding that not all accounts are enabled there. We certainly don't maintain everyone's inventory on the beta grid.</nowiki>

[13:01] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: ah</nowiki>

[13:01] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: than i was lucky</nowiki>

[13:01] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: However, accounts that are active on the beta grid are probably kept around.</nowiki>

[13:01] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: *CENSORED*</nowiki>

[13:01] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: Up, up...and....</nowiki>

[13:01] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: ...FLAT NOSE</nowiki>

[13:02] Kammi Capalini<nowiki>: only in SL will you see a cookie monster trying to fly :P</nowiki>

[13:02] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: thank you Andrew</nowiki>

[13:02] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Thank you, Lindens.</nowiki>

[13:02] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: I think CM has tried to fly before on Sesame Street</nowiki>

[13:02] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Cheers.</nowiki>

[13:02] MB Robonaught<nowiki>: bye all thanks for letting us attend</nowiki>

[13:03] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: simon, will there be a certain viewer you will want us to use for the test?</nowiki>

[13:03] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Thanks and take care.</nowiki>

[13:03] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Thanks, Lindens.</nowiki>

[13:03] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: have a good rest of the week, andrew</nowiki>

[13:03] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: bye, and thanks for the fish ;-)</nowiki>

[13:03] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: that was an interesting meeting</nowiki>

[13:03] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: Take care Andrew, Baker, Simon and everyone else.</nowiki>

[13:03] Kammi Capalini<nowiki>: have a great day everyone, thanks all</nowiki>

[13:03] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Thanks Baker and minior Lindens.</nowiki>

[13:03] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: hope to be hearing from you soon, baker :P</nowiki>

[13:03] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc all those leaving</nowiki>

[13:03] Faust Vollmar<nowiki> should probably go to JIRA now that he knows he can submit feature requests under the bug tag. >.></nowiki>

[13:04] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Only at LL. :P</nowiki>

[13:04] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: Heh</nowiki>

[13:04] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: "~" Oompa loompa doopidy doo "~"</nowiki>

[13:05] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Thanks everyone! Time to get this stuff ready for testing!</nowiki>

[13:05] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: tc baker!</nowiki>

[13:05] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: bye all</nowiki>

[13:05] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: group meeting over. right?</nowiki>

[13:05] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc baker</nowiki>

[13:05] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: yes, rex</nowiki>

[13:05] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Thank you, Baker.</nowiki>

[13:05] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: stopping logger</nowiki>

[13:05] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: Thanks for the meeting Lindens, and all, and have a good rest of the day</nowiki>

[13:05] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Thank you, Rex.</nowiki>

[13:05] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Fair winds, folks.</nowiki>

[13:06] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: if u can late u can read transcript here: </nowiki>http://rcds.nfshost.com/ques_view_chatLog.php?queOwner=llsl:Rex<nowiki>+Cronon&queName=chatLog&pg=1</nowiki>

[13:06] Inara Pey<nowiki>: Thanks, all.</nowiki>

 
[[Simulator_User_Group]]
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| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.10.08|Next 2013.10.08]]
|}

Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.09.24

2013-10-14T16:15:22Z

Andrew Linden: Created page with "Simulator_User_Group {| | Prev 2013.09.17 | Next 2013.10.01 |} == List of Spe…"

[[Simulator_User_Group]]
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| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.09.17|Prev 2013.09.17]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.10.01|Next 2013.10.01]]
|}

== List of Speakers ==
{|
|Adamburp Adamczyk
|Andrew Linden
|ANSI Soderstrom
|-
|Davido Chrome
|Faust Vollmar
|Jenna Felton
|-
|Kallista Destiny
|Kennylex Luckless
|Lucia Nightfire
|-
|MartinRJ Fayray
|Melvin Starbrook
|Mona Eberhardt
|-
|Petr Topaz
|Qie Niangao
|Rex Cronon
|-
|Simon Linden
|TankMaster Finesmith
|Whirly Fizzle
|-
|Yuzuru Jewell
|}

== Transcript ==
[12:09] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: Hello Andrew!</nowiki>

[12:09] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Hello</nowiki>

[12:09] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: sorry I'm late</nowiki>

[12:09] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Ave Andrew lagurni te salutim</nowiki>

[12:09] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Heya Andrew</nowiki>

[12:09] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Hey Andrew! Glad to see you weren't taken by the Men In Black.</nowiki>

[12:09] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Linden Sighting!</nowiki>

[12:09] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hello andrew</nowiki>

[12:09] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: hello Andrew</nowiki>

[12:09] Melvin Starbrook<nowiki>: hi Andrew :)</nowiki>

[12:09] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: hi</nowiki>

[12:09] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: hrm... I thought Simon would be here at the start</nowiki>

[12:09] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: gonna be a shorter meeting today, heh</nowiki>

[12:09] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Guh, can I turn off Linden text being blue somewhere?</nowiki>

[12:10] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: So are Simon and Baker too</nowiki>

[12:10] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Ok well, unfortunately I don't have much news</nowiki>

[12:10] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: oh high andrew</nowiki>

[12:10] Melvin Starbrook<nowiki>: hi andrew :)</nowiki>

[12:10] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I've been working on some interestlist fixes</nowiki>

[12:10] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: the final fixes... (I hope)</nowiki>

[12:10] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: until next time! :P</nowiki>

[12:11] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: to do with speeding up scene load</nowiki>

[12:11] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: so I haven't been following what is going out in updates this week or next</nowiki>

[12:11] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Tank, wouldn't it be nice if we could apply full bright and shininess to avatar skins? That way, certain avatar style choices could serve as extra light sources.</nowiki>

[12:11] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Daviod, for FS preferences colors chat color</nowiki>

[12:11] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Hey Simon.</nowiki>

[12:11] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Ah, there's Simon.</nowiki>

[12:11] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: all RC channels got updated to what was magnum last week, same with the release channle</nowiki>

[12:11] Simon Linden<nowiki>: hi, sorry to be late</nowiki>

[12:11] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Thanks.</nowiki>

[12:11] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: so everything right now is ont he same code base</nowiki>

[12:11] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: use mesh avatars and you can</nowiki>

[12:12] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Was a bit hard on the eyes on my screen.</nowiki>

[12:12] Melvin Starbrook<nowiki>: hi Simon :)</nowiki>

[12:12] Petr Topaz<nowiki>: do you have a note</nowiki>

[12:12] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Ave Simon</nowiki>

[12:12] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hi simon</nowiki>

[12:12] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Heya Simon</nowiki>

[12:12] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I got here late too Simon. We have only just begun.</nowiki>

[12:12] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Well, I do use a mesh avatar, but Andrew's avatar isn't mesh :/ :P</nowiki>

[12:12] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: heya simon</nowiki>

[12:12] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: and mona, we dont need more light sources</nowiki>

[12:13] Simon Linden<nowiki>: it sounds like you guys went over the releases already</nowiki>

[12:13] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: No not really.</nowiki>

[12:13] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: I did :P</nowiki>

[12:13] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Oh really? Ok we can skip that part?</nowiki>

[12:13] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: I had some decidedly weird sim crossings after the restarts...</nowiki>

[12:13] Simon Linden<nowiki>: ok ... well, that's all my news :P</nowiki>

[12:13] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: heh</nowiki>

[12:14] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Weird how Davido?</nowiki>

[12:14] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: yeah, everything this weel is on what was on magnum last week, the simulator crahs fixes and parcle access bypass issue fix</nowiki>

[12:14] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: week*</nowiki>

[12:14] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Well, I started bouncing uncontrollably all over the sim. It was on a vehicle.</nowiki>

[12:14] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Just happened two times though.</nowiki>

[12:14] Simon Linden<nowiki>: other times were ok?</nowiki>

[12:14] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Ground vehicle or air?</nowiki>

[12:14] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Ground</nowiki>

[12:15] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Yeah, it happened a couple of times. Then suddenly I couldn't reproduce it. Was the first time that has ever happened to me on a sim crossing though.</nowiki>

[12:15] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Sounds like the vehicle was snagging in a collision/penetration with another object, but I can't be sure.</nowiki>

[12:16] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Luckuliy the bike stopped when I got off it though.</nowiki>

[12:16] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I am curious about vehicle crossings as we did make a change there ... there's more threading going on which should lessen lag within the region</nowiki>

[12:17] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Andrew, would have been my guess, just that I was bouncing all over the sim, not just in a specific object.</nowiki>

[12:17] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: 'it is hard to drive inside hollow prims, I some time get stuck in walls</nowiki>

[12:17] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: well yeah, I'm trying to visualize what the "bouncing around" was like....</nowiki>

[12:17] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: It was very fast and very jerky.</nowiki>

[12:18] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Like being orbited? :-?</nowiki>

[12:18] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: maybe somebody attacked u ?</nowiki>

[12:18] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: or something</nowiki>

[12:18] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: did it feel like real physics bouncing with lots of tumbling fidelity and updates? or did it feel like rubber-banding which is mostly fast movement with few data updates?</nowiki>

[12:18] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: No, when you get orbited you can't get it to stop by getting off, and you don't end up standing where you get off either.</nowiki>

[12:19] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki> nods</nowiki>

[12:19] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Real physics bouncing.</nowiki>

[12:19] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Like when you get stuck in a vehiaspiiider on the keyboard brbr</nowiki>

[12:19] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: oh hrm... like a misbehaving vehicle perhaps -- real forces pushing it around...</nowiki>

[12:20] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: AlveKatt, which vehicle was it?</nowiki>

[12:21] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Like when you get stuck in a prim with a vehicle. same kind of bouncing, only there was no limit to it.</nowiki>

[12:21] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Perhaps the combination of that particular vehicle with the specific conditions in the region(s) you were travelling through can explain the situation, I don't know.</nowiki>

[12:21] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Well, we'll keep an eye out for repeat reports of that vehicle crossing bug. If we get a reliable repro recipe then we should be able to examine it enough to find the problem.</nowiki>

[12:22] Fractal v4.0 whispers<nowiki>: This bike is locked.</nowiki>

[12:22] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: when you use llMove2target and the vehicle can not reach the position because of blocked by something, then it remains being pushed toward the position. I can imagine that the vehicle bumped over the target postition and tried to move back to reach the goal</nowiki>

[12:22] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: I have a question: After rolling restarts, many regions come back in an unhealthy state in that no mesh will rez on them, you appear offline to all your friends if you are on said region, your friends lists & groups lists don't load, you cannot initiate Im sessions & you usually disconnect when attempting to TP out of those regions. (Caps fail I guess?). Restarting the region fixes it. As far as I know this used to happen rarely after rolls but now it appears pretty common. After each roll you can guarantee a couple of BUGs filed reporting this now. Any ideas why this has increased?</nowiki>

[12:22] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Davido, any chance that it could be an LSL script confusion problem? That is, something new that is making the script logic do the wrong thing?</nowiki>

[12:22] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Was it your vehicle Davido? Or one made by someone else?</nowiki>

[12:23] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: It was my bike.</nowiki>

[12:23] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: The one I rezzed.</nowiki>

[12:23] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Whirly, that does sound like a Caps failure of some sort.</nowiki>

[12:23] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Whirly - no exact ideas but the problems you describe do sound like a back-end issue with either caps or the systems behind it</nowiki>

[12:24] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: whirly. what u describe sounds very similar to what happens when a sim is griefed</nowiki>

[12:24] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: I can confirm what Whirly said. This seems to happen very often in the past two weeks (stuck servers after rolling restart).</nowiki>

[12:24] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Yes</nowiki>

[12:24] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Monty borked something, heh</nowiki>

[12:24] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: a restart of the region *usuaolly* fixes it</nowiki>

[12:24] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Yep</nowiki>

[12:24] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I've been working on some of the restart code (not shipped yet) and it should become a bit more graceful</nowiki>

[12:24] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: not always, though</nowiki>

[12:25] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Well, griffer objects can cause those same symptoms too or it can be user specific if they have "the DNS bug" but theres def a pattern in regions coming back after the rolls in this state for everyone.</nowiki>

[12:25] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Hrm... a bug report for the broken caps should include the server names (simXXXX.agni.lindenlab.com) during and after the problem.</nowiki>

[12:25] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: btw. can't something be done about those scripts that stop all other scripts from working, stop rezzing and stop attachements from loading and running:(</nowiki>

[12:25] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: The server host is visible in the Help --> About Second Life text.</nowiki>

[12:26] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Restart coed reminds me, why do Linden Realms oten bug in thet way that scripts do not start when the sim has restarted?</nowiki>

[12:26] Simon Linden<nowiki>: On a different note, I know there were some problems with group notices and messages before, and the http work that went out recnetly seems to have made it better</nowiki>

[12:26] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: I can make a list of all the recent BUG issues filed about this where a region came back un this state and where a restart fixd it if thats helpful. Iff the top of my head, I think theres a good 20 issues in all heh</nowiki>

[12:26] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'll ask our Release team who actually does the rollouts if they have some more clues about the broken caps.</nowiki>

[12:26] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: *off</nowiki>

[12:27] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Group chat lag has been horrible today.</nowiki>

[12:27] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Not only today, Davido. Yesterday and on Sunday, it was a pain.</nowiki>

[12:27] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: yeah sunday sucks altely for sl</nowiki>

[12:28] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Whirly - the specific behaviors probably aren't important. If the caps system isn't healthy, all sorts of stuff goes bad</nowiki>

[12:28] Simon Linden<nowiki>: it may be a general connectivity problem too</nowiki>

[12:28] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: see </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-3884<nowiki> for a well documented case</nowiki>

[12:30] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: with a couple of affected regions</nowiki>

[12:30] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is half over</nowiki>

[12:30] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That was checked out an was a physics issue, Martin .. can you see Maestro's comment?</nowiki>

[12:31] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: that comment was specific to one of the regions in mention</nowiki>

[12:31] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: I think the reporter reported five or six regions in that Jira</nowiki>

[12:31] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: most of them got back into a 'normal' state after support restarted them</nowiki>

[12:31] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yep, and they mostly were fixed with restarting</nowiki>

[12:31] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: and Maestro fixed the last one which had just physical lag</nowiki>

[12:32] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Yeah, the Morgan Pass problem appears to be unrelated to some of the problems that prompted the opening of that bug.</nowiki>

[12:32] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I suspect the caps system is overloaded in a server restart ... there may be too many regions coming up at once, doing all the housework to get into the grid, etc, and it falls apart. That's just a wild guess, however</nowiki>

[12:33] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Random house...</nowiki>

[12:34] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Sounds reasonable</nowiki>

[12:34] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: anybody remember a particular region where the problem was seen *today*?</nowiki>

[12:35] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Yeah one of my friends regions had it today after the roll. She was fixed after restarting it. lemme find the name</nowiki>

[12:35] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: the sim might not initialize all the vars?</nowiki>

[12:36] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Im guessing it was Sheridan . I need to ask her to be certain though. She has land in other places</nowiki>

[12:37] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Andrew, regarding the new feeature that was added to the server (blocking certain scripted rezzers from defeating parcel object return), which incidents/rezzers does that affect?</nowiki>

[12:37] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: feature*</nowiki>

[12:38] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: the greiffing feature</nowiki>

[12:38] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: huh... Sheridan didn't shutdown poperly...</nowiki>

[12:38] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Andrew, ask Zi Ree if you need more details about that</nowiki>

[12:38] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: ahhh</nowiki>

[12:38] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: so... if I were to hazzard a guess... the simulator didn't actually shutdown on the original host... but all the supporting services did</nowiki>

[12:39] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: so Caps and stuff broke</nowiki>

[12:39] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Does that mean it never got updated either?</nowiki>

[12:39] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: when it did come back up it was on new host, that was updated</nowiki>

[12:39] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: ohhh</nowiki>

[12:39] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Yeah, she had all the symptoms of caps fail after the region came back online</nowiki>

[12:39] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: & she restarted manually & all was fine again</nowiki>

[12:40] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: well... it isn't clear to me that Sheridan shutdown twice or only once</nowiki>

[12:40] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: you need a better monitoring</nowiki>

[12:40] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: that is, the shutdown that fixed it may have been the only shutdown</nowiki>

[12:41] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: i have one ....</nowiki>

[12:41] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I can't learn more without digging into logs</nowiki>

[12:41] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'll have to do that later.</nowiki>

[12:42] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I see Mona asked a question that I missed...</nowiki>

[12:42] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: thats fine</nowiki>

[12:42] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: The feature that blocks recursive scripted rezzing that defeated parcel autoreturn...</nowiki>

[12:43] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Thanks Andrew.</nowiki>

[12:43] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Mona in short: the rezzee object inherits the parcel arrival time of its rezzer</nowiki>

[12:43] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: when are you going to fix feyframe motion from defeating autoreturn, heh</nowiki>

[12:43] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: how about attachements that rez things?</nowiki>

[12:43] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Great :)</nowiki>

[12:43] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: Andrew- Rex beat me to it.</nowiki>

[12:44] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: it used to be the case that the parcel arrival time was initialized to its creation time</nowiki>

[12:44] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: What does this do to vehicle demo rezzers?</nowiki>

[12:44] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: hrm... attachments, htat is a good question</nowiki>

[12:44] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: or abandoned recurrsive rezzing</nowiki>

[12:44] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: attachments dont get auto returned</nowiki>

[12:44] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: still an inhereted time</nowiki>

[12:44] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: physics lag</nowiki>

[12:44] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: 7ms</nowiki>

[12:45] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I believe that attachments do not count in the parcel object count, so they don't have a valid parcel arrival time</nowiki>

[12:45] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: someone needs to clean up their balls</nowiki>

[12:45] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: its done by the sim</nowiki>

[12:45] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: give the sim 2 minutes</nowiki>

[12:45] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: so any objects they create are essentially "new" to the parcel, and thereby their autoreturn timer starts at the moment they are created</nowiki>

[12:45] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Obj a gets time t, rezzed object b with time t which rezzes object C also with time t</nowiki>

[12:46] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: the trick was to create an objectA, then put a copy of ObjectA into it (thereby making ObjectB)</nowiki>

[12:46] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: its not a good idea to give this sim 2 minutes :) can return occasionally too many things</nowiki>

[12:46] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: also, ObjectA has a script in it that gives "ObjectA" to the thing that it rezzes</nowiki>

[12:46] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: thet still all get time t now, right?</nowiki>

[12:46] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: Yeah I am mildly surprised the rez, give loop was left alone this long.</nowiki>

[12:47] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: So you drop ObjectB on the ground, it rezzes ObjectA, then give a copy of ObjectA to the one it rezzed, making it into ObjectB</nowiki>

[12:47] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: which then rezzes a new ObjectA and so on...</nowiki>

[12:47] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: such a recursive object could live forever in an autoreturn parcel... but not anymore</nowiki>

[12:48] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: but they all inherit time t from the first drop now?</nowiki>

[12:48] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: there are other ways, heh</nowiki>

[12:48] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: the trick also worked for temp-on-rez recursive rezzers</nowiki>

[12:48] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but I nixed that mode too</nowiki>

[12:48] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: there is one "small" problem andrew. now, replicating bullets crash the sim:(</nowiki>

[12:48] Melvin Starbrook<nowiki>: what if they hop parcels?</nowiki>

[12:48] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: yes Kallista</nowiki>

[12:48] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: hrm...</nowiki>

[12:48] Simon Linden<nowiki>: crash?</nowiki>

[12:48] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: maybe because the sim does too much checking</nowiki>

[12:48] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: yes</nowiki>

[12:48] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: those always had crash potential Rex</nowiki>

[12:48] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Rex, you know of a region that suffered such a crash?</nowiki>

[12:49] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: And an approximate date?</nowiki>

[12:49] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Go to the next sim over and demonstrate. :D</nowiki>

[12:49] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: yes. sandbox weapons testing</nowiki>

[12:49] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yeah, WT a few times today</nowiki>

[12:49] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: about 2 days ago</nowiki>

[12:49] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: lol urs a wonder that place is ever actually online :D</nowiki>

[12:49] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: *its</nowiki>

[12:49] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: God Ender bullet spam</nowiki>

[12:49] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: my own bullets did that:(</nowiki>

[12:49] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: its an even bigger wonder why its not a test bed for working on crash deterrents, heh</nowiki>

[12:50] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: never did that before:(</nowiki>

[12:50] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: seems everythign taht goes on there is unheard of, heh</nowiki>

[12:50] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Ok I'll try to investigate that to see if I can find details about that crash.</nowiki>

[12:50] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: When an object rezzes another object, it could notice the parent, the object rezzed it. And when the second object rezzes the third, the parent object is inherited. . When at the end too many object are rezed with same parent, the parent object is removed from the sim</nowiki>

[12:50] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i can demonstate it now:)</nowiki>

[12:50] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: jk;)</nowiki>

[12:50] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Try at the end of the meering ;)</nowiki>

[12:50] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: this could kil the replicating crashers</nowiki>

[12:50] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: *meeting</nowiki>

[12:50] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[12:51] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: but let us run away first</nowiki>

[12:51] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Ah, you're saying that there are so many objects deleted at once that they crash the region?</nowiki>

[12:51] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i have no idea what crashes the region</nowiki>

[12:51] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: that happens with high script count obejcts</nowiki>

[12:51] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: what about linked objects if a prim rezzes a linkset(255prims) and brreak all links ?</nowiki>

[12:51] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: mass deletion = crash</nowiki>

[12:51] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: There is no "connectivity" from child object to parent... except that the child's "arrival time" in the parcel is set to be the same as the parent</nowiki>

[12:51] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: and then imagine if every prim has a object to rez inside</nowiki>

[12:52] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: []</nowiki>

[12:52] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and I mean hundreds of objects with like 500+ scripts each</nowiki>

[12:52] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: yup</nowiki>

[12:52] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I believe the parcel arrival time is preserved on object unlink</nowiki>

[12:52] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: so all unlinked pieces would be returned at the same time</nowiki>

[12:52] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: it seems that since the fix for replication is on the bullets can crash the sim</nowiki>

[12:52] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: but what, if the parent is deleted at breakalllinks</nowiki>

[12:52] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: Data Bot: It is REGION!!!</nowiki>

[12:52] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: lols</nowiki>

[12:52] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: then you have 255 prims wihtin 1 second</nowiki>

[12:53] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: each one is rezzing 255 prims</nowiki>

[12:53] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: linking and delinking used to bypass autoreturn, at least they did with temp then untemp after delink</nowiki>

[12:53] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: yeah, well the simulator should be able to handle that</nowiki>

[12:53] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: okay</nowiki>

[12:53] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: haven't looked at that in a while</nowiki>

[12:53] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: i will test it soon</nowiki>

[12:53] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Rex, your bullets are temp-on-rez or not?</nowiki>

[12:53] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: :)</nowiki>

[12:53] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: temp</nowiki>

[12:54] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: hrm... well they aren't falling into the autoreturn code -- temp-on-rez objects are just deleted</nowiki>

[12:54] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: ANSI i would think that that would hit a grey goo fence.</nowiki>

[12:54] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but they may be deleted all at once</nowiki>

[12:54] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Coalesced rezzing is worse, Ansi, only one call can rez any amount of prims at once</nowiki>

[12:54] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: no, its not rezzing @ kallista</nowiki>

[12:54] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Rex, your temp-on-rez bullets are recursive rezzers?</nowiki>

[12:54] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: why bother recurrsive rezzign when you can rez 15000 prims in one shot, heh</nowiki>

[12:54] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: its only rezzing one object, and the object is braking into 254 prims</nowiki>

[12:54] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: yes. but they do it relatively slow:)</nowiki>

[12:54] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: what if you rezz a tousand of temp rims and then make them not temp all at once?</nowiki>

[12:55] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: prims*</nowiki>

[12:55] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: right, they would have to be slow or they run into the "Grey Goo Fence"</nowiki>

[12:55] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: but then those rez objects.</nowiki>

[12:55] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is almost over</nowiki>

[12:55] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: which would hit th fence</nowiki>

[12:55] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: lucy. they weren't made to crash sim</nowiki>

[12:55] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: grey goo fence is easily bypassed</nowiki>

[12:55] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: esp when rezzing from agent inventory</nowiki>

[12:55] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: two different accountings</nowiki>

[12:55] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Rex, they're *recursive* rezzed bullets? That could explain it: too many getting removed at the same instant.</nowiki>

[12:56] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: yes qie</nowiki>

[12:56] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: its why illegal tpv's with sim fill features are popular over scripted rezzing</nowiki>

[12:56] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Yeah, I was thinking about putting viewer-triggered rezzings under the scrutiny of the GGF</nowiki>

[12:56] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: not to mention the remote rezzing cap</nowiki>

[12:56] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: what is the remote rezzing cap?</nowiki>

[12:57] Andrew Linden<nowiki> whispers: its a way to rez an object on a region to which you have no normal connection?</nowiki>

[12:57] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: oops, why did that whisper?</nowiki>

[12:57] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I explained that in </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-3854

[12:57] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: shift + enter</nowiki>

[12:57] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: under teh need for a :"Allow object rezzing from owners not present on this parcel." setting</nowiki>

[12:57] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i should mention that the same bullets when used at rausch only lag the sim</nowiki>

[12:58] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Current Area of Concern:</nowiki>

<nowiki>Currently, an agent is capable of rezzing from inventory on a parcel without being on the parcel or even in the region.</nowiki>

<nowiki>Objects are capable of scripted rezzing and self-replication without the owner being present on the parcel or in the region.</nowiki>

<nowiki>Rezzed/worn megaprims larger than a region can rez objects into a region from several regions away.</nowiki>

<nowiki>Bots are capable of connecting to a region from anywhere on the grid, becoming a child agent of the region and rezzing inventory objects on any public rez parcels.</nowiki>

<nowiki>Illegal tpv's with a "sim fill" feature can send hundreds of rez requests a second over the entire region without the user explicitly looking for land to rez on.</nowiki>

<nowiki>Regions with large banlists that cycle their bans over time may not have the owner on the parcel banlist at the time of rezzing.</nowiki>

[12:58] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: oh ok, a feature request rather than an existing feature</nowiki>

[12:58] Melvin Starbrook<nowiki>: oh cannot see that page</nowiki>

[12:58] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Yes, you can rez in a region into which you can see.</nowiki>

[12:58] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: child agent rezzing</nowiki>

[12:58] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: So if you're standing at the region border you can rez across the border.</nowiki>

[12:58] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: but thats only part of the problem</nowiki>

[12:58] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: you don't have to be onyl on the border</nowiki>

[12:59] Simon Linden<nowiki>: A lot of the SL design is based around making region boundaries invisible, but let's not get into how difficult that is :P</nowiki>

[12:59] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: you can be anywhere on teh grid</nowiki>

[12:59] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: as long as you're connected to teh target region</nowiki>

[12:59] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: as a child agent</nowiki>

[12:59] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Simon, I would say that particular design is a bit failed though.</nowiki>

[13:00] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: sitting accross the region border is not possible. I'd suggest rezzing in other region should be not allowed too, or at least another region flag needs for ghat</nowiki>

[13:00] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Hrm... is it really possible for the viewer to initiate a child-agent connection on a completely arbitrary region? I wouldn't expect that to work.</nowiki>

[13:00] Meeter<nowiki>: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group</nowiki>

[13:00] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Nor would I.</nowiki>

[13:00] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: I have a feeling griff viewers allow that actually.....</nowiki>

[13:00] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: it wouldnt supprise me if someone got it to work</nowiki>

[13:00] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: u set drawing distinace to 5km....</nowiki>

[13:00] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: what about these bomb objects taht block attachments and rezzing is anyone lookign into fixing that?</nowiki>

[13:01] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: Dang, atleast falling asleep during the meeting didnt hurt too bad, no kelly to poke today.</nowiki>

[13:01] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: The simulator doesn't actually support 5km draw distances</nowiki>

[13:01] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[13:01] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: we do cap the draw distance at the server</nowiki>

[13:01] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: how far?</nowiki>

[13:01] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Whats the cap?</nowiki>

[13:01] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: The cap used to be 768m, but I think I dropped it down to 512m</nowiki>

[13:02] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I know someone that created a 3k draw dsitance easily or at least was connected to regions that far away</nowiki>

[13:02] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: lols</nowiki>

[13:02] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: it wasn't teh standard issue viewer though, heh</nowiki>

[13:02] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: at one time was possible 5km</nowiki>

[13:02] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Isnt there a min cap now of 20m or something?</nowiki>

[13:02] Melvin Starbrook<nowiki>: mm think can look further than that :)</nowiki>

[13:02] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: well, I don't know how that worked. Yeah the min cap is 20m at the server.</nowiki>

[13:02] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Hum, you can still see large objects that are farther away though?</nowiki>

[13:02] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Perhaps for a while if you have an old child agent there (left from a TP out or something)</nowiki>

[13:02] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but those eventually timeout</nowiki>

[13:03] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: in theory</nowiki>

[13:03] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yes after 65 seconds of no contact</nowiki>

[13:03] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: *55</nowiki>

[13:03] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Thank you Andrew and Simon.</nowiki>

[13:03] Rex Cronon<nowiki> whispers: S, is there anything done about those scripts that stop all other scripts in sim from working, stop others from rezzing and also stop attachments from loading and running:(</nowiki>

[13:03] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: i can set 1024 in firestorm. but i see only landscape from the far regions, no objects built there</nowiki>

[13:03] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: so, is there anything done about those scripts that stop all other scripts in sim from working, stop others from rezzing and also stop attachments from loading and running:(</nowiki>

[13:03] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: the child-agent timeout reset relies on an update that comes from the region you are in</nowiki>

[13:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Thanks everyone for coming today</nowiki>

[13:03] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: not from an update from the viewer</nowiki>

[13:04] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Thanks Lindens :)</nowiki>

[13:04] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: yvw @ simon</nowiki>

[13:04] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Thank you"</nowiki>

[13:04] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: !</nowiki>

[13:04] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: thanks all for watching</nowiki>

[13:04] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Thank you, Andrew and Simon.</nowiki>

[13:04] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: Was hoping to poke Kelly today to see if a feature request made it into the infinity-in-box or got forgotten entirely, haha. For some reason I fall asleep during every meeting I manage to make it to. >.></nowiki>

[13:04] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: You're welcome Simon, thanks for having us.</nowiki>

[13:04] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: if u do ctrl+s u wisper?</nowiki>

[13:04] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: thx for your time, simon and andrew</nowiki>

[13:04] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: did we learn anything today, lol</nowiki>

[13:04] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Thank you Andrew.</nowiki>

[13:04] Melvin Starbrook<nowiki>: thank you :)</nowiki>

[13:04] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc andrew, simon</nowiki>

[13:04] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Get more sleep in general Faust.</nowiki>

[13:04] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Thanks Andrew, Simon. Have fun all.</nowiki>

[13:04] Melvin Starbrook<nowiki>: guess everyone is testing draw distance now</nowiki>

 
[[Simulator_User_Group]]
{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.09.17|Prev 2013.09.17]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.10.01|Next 2013.10.01]]
|}

Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.09.17

2013-10-14T16:14:06Z

Andrew Linden: Created page with "Simulator_User_Group {| | Prev 2013.09.10 | Next 2013.09.24 |} == List of Spe…"

[[Simulator_User_Group]]
{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.09.10|Prev 2013.09.10]]
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|}

== List of Speakers ==
{|
|Adamburp Adamczyk
|Andrew Linden
|ANSI Soderstrom
|-
|Dolma Dollinger
|Ima Mechanique
|Kelly Linden
|-
|Kennylex Luckless
|Lucia Nightfire
|Melvin Starbrook
|-
|Mona Eberhardt
|Moon Corrigible
|Nalates Urriah
|-
|Petr Topaz
|Qie Niangao
|Rex Cronon
|-
|Simon Linden
|Techwolf Lupindo
|TorqueDom3 Primeau
|-
|Whirly Fizzle
|Wuf Shirabyoshi
|Yuzuru Jewell
|-
|}

== Transcript ==
[12:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I can get things rolling with the server update news .... we put a new version on the main channel of the grid this morning. This had some system http work that Monty did</nowiki>

[12:04] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i was wondering. how can we let our ceo know how much we "love" the new TOS:)</nowiki>

[12:04] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The forum post is here : </nowiki>http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2013-09-16/td-p/2208893

[12:04] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Maybe by going Mrs Osbourne vs Iron Maiden on him, Rex?</nowiki>

[12:04] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Tomorrow we'll have two different maintenance releases in the RC channels</nowiki>

[12:04] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: whirly: you didn't really think we'd let you escape my bling did you?</nowiki>

[12:04] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: yeah. right mona:)</nowiki>

[12:04] Melvin Starbrook<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[12:05] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hello andrew, kelly</nowiki>

[12:05] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Hi Andrew :)</nowiki>

[12:05] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Hello.</nowiki>

[12:05] Simon Linden<nowiki>: There aren't a lot of fixes going out ... but a few crashes and other improvements</nowiki>

[12:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I'll pre-empt the later questions about the TOS with a "I don't know and I can't discuss it" 'cause we're engineers and not lawyers.</nowiki>

[12:06] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki> caresses laggy</nowiki>

[12:06] KittyCats - Laggy<nowiki>: purr</nowiki>

[12:07] Techwolf Lupindo<nowiki>: Is there a link tothe TOS changes for us that don't know what is going on?</nowiki>

[12:07] Simon Linden<nowiki>: but if there are discussions in the forums please express your concerns there ... they will get read</nowiki>

[12:07] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: In what release will Andrew have a mesh ava?</nowiki>

[12:07] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Simon, NP, but pass along there is lots of dissatisfaction...</nowiki>

[12:07] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I didn't see one when I looked a few days ago</nowiki>

[12:07] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: There are 4 or 5</nowiki>

[12:07] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: tos changes? never knew they was a-coming or id'v'e baked a cke</nowiki>

[12:07] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I have Nal ... I can't get into details but that feedback has reached the right people</nowiki>

[12:08] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Thx</nowiki>

[12:08] Simon Linden<nowiki> whispers: Andrew or Kelly - do you guys have any news?</nowiki>

[12:08] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: ur can read about here: </nowiki>http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2013/09/linden-lab-tos-textures.html<nowiki>#more</nowiki>

[12:09] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I don't have much. I've been fixing some interestlist bugs</nowiki>

[12:09] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: hi</nowiki>

[12:09] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I've had crashes in BS and LT regions every 2 - 3 days since the last two release, are those crash fixes addressing that?</nowiki>

[12:09] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Hi hi</nowiki>

[12:09] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hi ansi</nowiki>

[12:09] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: turns out objects aren't always loading in the right order when you login or TP to a new region</nowiki>

[12:09] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but I just fixed that yesterday</nowiki>

[12:09] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Here's a more concise post on the subject, Rex: </nowiki>https://modemworld.wordpress.com/2013/09/11/tos-change-and-content-rights-lab-provides-statement/

[12:10] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: and there is a bug where some textures (such as the water) will not show up in a timely manner after you clear your cache</nowiki>

[12:10] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but I *just* finished the fix for that a minute ago</nowiki>

[12:10] Melvin Starbrook<nowiki>: YAY!</nowiki>

[12:10] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: That's good news.</nowiki>

[12:11] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: i do have a question about scripts and texture rezzing</nowiki>

[12:11] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: there is also a bug with Muted Objects, if they send you IM (but they are muted), you get a message "Delivery capped" at login</nowiki>

[12:11] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: and no messages</nowiki>

[12:12] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki> tries not to mute to many objects/peoples</nowiki>

[12:12] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: last week i was trying to create a prerezzer</nowiki>

[12:12] Melvin Starbrook<nowiki>: for me its very important water rezzing in time :)</nowiki>

[12:12] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: The long SL forum discussion on ToS is here: </nowiki>http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Merchants/Updated-LL-TOS-Claims-FULL-RIGHTS-to-ALL-CONTENT/m-p/2201477

[12:12] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: its only oine object, it send me every minute a IM</nowiki>

[12:12] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Dont IM's from muted avies themselves count towards offline cap too?</nowiki>

[12:13] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: its my own object</nowiki>

[12:13] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: but i sold it</nowiki>

[12:13] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: i cant delete it</nowiki>

[12:13] Simon Linden<nowiki>: ANSI - can you file that as a BUG ? or does anyone know if it's been reported? That sounds straight-forward</nowiki>

[12:13] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: yes, sorry</nowiki>

[12:13] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Whirly, I don't get it. Why should IMs from blocked people count towards offline cap?</nowiki>

[12:13] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: not from blocked people, blocked objects itself</nowiki>

[12:13] Simon Linden<nowiki>: It all depends on where and when the block is applied</nowiki>

[12:13] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Hello eroticable pleas dress in G rated zone.</nowiki>

[12:14] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: where's baker?</nowiki>

[12:14] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: that's a bug? ANSI created an obj that IM's him constantly, and then sells it, and can't delete it?</nowiki>

[12:15] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: What exactly is the bug? Sounds like a mistake to me.</nowiki>

[12:15] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Dont group notices from groups you have ticked to not receive notices from also count to the cap?</nowiki>

[12:15] Simon Linden<nowiki>: No, those IMs are causing problems</nowiki>

[12:15] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i think the bug is that ansi can't mute it</nowiki>

[12:15] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ok, so the consequences from the IM's is a bug. The IM's can't be properly managed.</nowiki>

[12:15] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Right</nowiki>

[12:16] Petr Topaz<nowiki>: can't delete it</nowiki>

[12:16] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: i has a object, if a error in network appears, it send me a IM to let me see if my host is down...... the script startet to "loop" and i got a message every minute, the owner was offline since one week, so i muted the object but my IMs are still capped</nowiki>

[12:16] Simon Linden<nowiki>: fwiw as something related ... I've been looking into missing Group Notices, which seem to be flaky these days getting to email and being there when you log in</nowiki>

[12:16] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: if u sold u can't delete it unless u put in a script that listens only to u</nowiki>

[12:16] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: how does it send it to you, via owner uuid, or fixed uuid?</nowiki>

[12:16] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: ficed uuid</nowiki>

[12:17] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: not the wisest thing...</nowiki>

[12:17] Melvin Starbrook<nowiki>: depends what you want :)</nowiki>

[12:17] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: so the bug is that im's from muted objects are not blocked, when send to a fixed uuid</nowiki>

[12:18] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: does it block other im's?</nowiki>

[12:18] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: didn't get that straight</nowiki>

[12:18] Simon Linden<nowiki>: it may be compounded by the fact ANSI is the creator</nowiki>

[12:18] Techwolf Lupindo<nowiki>: Hmm...create an object, IM target every minute. Target mute object, target can't recieve offline IM due to cap.</nowiki>

[12:18] Simon Linden<nowiki>: but in any case, it seems worth looking into</nowiki>

[12:19] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: you get the IM when you're online as well?</nowiki>

[12:19] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Ok, so the offline IM queue needs to have some awareness of what is muted.</nowiki>

[12:20] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: or queue needs to be larger...</nowiki>

[12:20] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: i get email if iam offline, every minute 1</nowiki>

[12:20] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki> gets her hopes up</nowiki>

[12:20] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: from this object</nowiki>

[12:20] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: IMs from muted residents while you are offline do not get stored and do not count against the cap</nowiki>

[12:20] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Wuf, you said you had a question about texture streaming ("texture rezzing")?</nowiki>

[12:20] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: what I thought</nowiki>

[12:20] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: but i cant mute myself</nowiki>

[12:20] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki> sometimes whishes she could</nowiki>

[12:21] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Right, I think you have a special case there ANSI and it's worth looking into</nowiki>

[12:21] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: maybe its a creator/owner bug</nowiki>

[12:21] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: ahhhh ty. Do group notices count to the cap if you have ticked not to receive notices from that group?</nowiki>

[12:21] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: i'll write a jira soon</nowiki>

[12:21] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki> can't believe it's got something to do with creator, but maybe because you can't mute yourself or so....</nowiki>

[12:21] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Whirly I don't know off the top of my head. I think not.</nowiki>

[12:22] Melvin Starbrook<nowiki>: you mute objects or owner of the object.. not the creator :)</nowiki>

[12:23] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: ouch</nowiki>

[12:23] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki> missed a line</nowiki>

[12:23] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: yes andrew</nowiki>

[12:23] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: i was making this prerezzer</nowiki>

[12:23] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: i want to have a slide show of textures</nowiki>

[12:23] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: but because they load very slow, dolma adviced me to make a prerezzer</nowiki>

[12:24] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: so when some texture loads on the normal object, i have a small, nearly invisible object, that gets the next texture</nowiki>

[12:24] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: right, a prerezzer would be something that loads the texture on an unseed face to make the viewer download the texture before it shows up on a visible face.</nowiki>

[12:24] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: textures actually</nowiki>

[12:24] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: yes</nowiki>

[12:24] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: er... *unseen* face</nowiki>

[12:24] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: but it looks like not all textures are loaded</nowiki>

[12:25] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: when you are with your back to that pre rezzing object it's way slower</nowiki>

[12:25] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: would unseen face work? doesn't the viewer know to ignore things it can't show?</nowiki>

[12:25] Simon Linden<nowiki>: You can press ctrl-shift-3 and watch as textures are downloaded</nowiki>

[12:25] Melvin Starbrook<nowiki>: change groups and rezzing will go faster...</nowiki>

[12:25] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Your viewer will prioritize textures that are larger and closer to you</nowiki>

[12:26] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: but can it be, that some textures are not loaded at all?</nowiki>

[12:26] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: even if you wait 5 mins</nowiki>

[12:26] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: yeah, our texture download pipeline has become a bit smarter over time... it has probably become a bit harder to "fool" with an unseen texture</nowiki>

[12:26] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: is there a workaround</nowiki>

[12:26] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: hihihi</nowiki>

[12:26] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: to fool it</nowiki>

[12:26] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: I always use a shown face but colour it black to hide the texture</nowiki>

[12:26] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Does it matter if the prim face w/texture is facing away from yo?</nowiki>

[12:26] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Perhaps try making your display like this -- make a thin prim with the one you want to see, then another one right behind it with that pre-load textures on a face that's not exposed ... sandwiched between them</nowiki>

[12:27] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I think we do some texture download prioritization -- we try to compute how many pixels are visible for the texture and prioritize by pixel count</nowiki>

[12:27] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That's a good idea, Ima ... maybe the back of your screen could be like that</nowiki>

[12:27] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: more pixels visible, the higher the priority for download</nowiki>

[12:27] TorqueDom3 Primeau<nowiki>: doesnt the "ambient occlusion" opion effect the prerezzer idea?</nowiki>

[12:28] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: imo llPreloadTexture(key textureKey) would be quite useful:)</nowiki>

[12:28] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: well i don't mind people see the texture, but i don't want the prerezzer to 'disturb' the real object</nowiki>

[12:28] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki> never heard of llPreloadTexture</nowiki>

[12:28] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i think u can use particles to preload textures:)</nowiki>

[12:29] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: hmm</nowiki>

[12:29] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Yes Torque ... it might. We're essentially trying to trick the viewer to download something it can't see yet, while it works hard to download what you can see</nowiki>

[12:29] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki> gets a huge object in front of her camera...</nowiki>

[12:29] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'm not familiar with details of the viewer's texture priority system -- I'll have to ask some of the other LL devs to find out if they know how to fool it into downloading a texture early.</nowiki>

[12:30] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: we don't have such a function wuf. at least not yet</nowiki>

[12:30] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: well particles might be an option too</nowiki>

[12:30] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: and i'll have a watch at that llPreloadTexture,</nowiki>

[12:30] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is half over</nowiki>

[12:30] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: ohh</nowiki>

[12:31] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: it was wishful thinking on my part:)</nowiki>

[12:32] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: ehm simon</nowiki>

[12:32] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: i don't mind, that prerezzing takes place after the normal rezzing</nowiki>

[12:32] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: the meaning is that people first look at the normal rezzed texture</nowiki>

[12:32] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: while it's fully rezzed</nowiki>

[12:33] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: so during that, there's time to prerezz the next one(s)</nowiki>

[12:33] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Don't hold your breath for llPreloadTexture() btw</nowiki>

[12:34] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: *grin*</nowiki>

[12:34] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: would kill me probably</nowiki>

[12:34] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki> slowly caresses laggy</nowiki>

[12:34] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: I made a slideshow like that some time ago, before the LinkPrim function came along. I should rewrite it to use a single script I suppose</nowiki>

[12:35] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: laggy? nice name for a cat:)</nowiki>

[12:35] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: One idea, Wuf, is to put the preloading texture on a black object nearby. Like the picture frame for the current image.</nowiki>

[12:35] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I have a slideshow downstairs with paintings by an artist I know ... they're fun scripts to make</nowiki>

[12:35] Simon Linden<nowiki>: but didn't bother with the pre-loading</nowiki>

[12:35] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: The texture will load undeneath the black color</nowiki>

[12:35] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: and will not cause visible glitches, but the viewer will think it needs to be rendered on real pixels.</nowiki>

[12:36] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: but isn't that black disturbing the view on the normal object?</nowiki>

[12:36] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: i might be able to rezz the object inside one of the avatars or so</nowiki>

[12:36] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: it's 3d</nowiki>

[12:36] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: avatars constantly rotate</nowiki>

[12:37] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: dwho can colour the sides differently</nowiki>

[12:37] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: *you</nowiki>

[12:37] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: i do</nowiki>

[12:37] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Well, the black object would be a piece of the viewer object ... a decoration of sorts.</nowiki>

[12:37] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: so make all sides black, except the main screen</nowiki>

[12:37] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: there are 6 textures</nowiki>

[12:37] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: ahh the sides of the main screen</nowiki>

[12:37] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: great idea!</nowiki>

[12:37] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I dunno what your viewer looks like. But if it needed a border or frame of sorts, you could make it black and put a texture underneath that.</nowiki>

[12:38] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: no the sides from the prims from the main view you normally don't see</nowiki>

[12:38] The Flying toilett with sign whispers<nowiki>: Welcome, ANSI Soderstrom, to drive The Flying toilett :) !</nowiki>

[12:38] The Flying toilett with sign whispers<nowiki>: Say /911 gethud to get an HUD.</nowiki>

[12:38] The Flying toilett with sign whispers<nowiki>: Engine ready.</nowiki>

[12:39] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki> looks at the dirty old man riding a toilet</nowiki>

[12:39] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: yes, but if the viewer were smart enough it would notice that the unseen sides of the box are not rendered...</nowiki>

[12:39] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: and therefore it doesn't need to load the image</nowiki>

[12:39] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: hihihi</nowiki>

[12:39] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: at least... not with high priority</nowiki>

[12:39] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki> realized that too</nowiki>

[12:39] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: but it's worth testing</nowiki>

[12:40] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I thought the system used a kind of "gl-pick" technique to measure the number of pixels for each texture</nowiki>

[12:40] Moon Corrigible<nowiki>: How high does the priority need to be if it is only preloading though</nowiki>

[12:40] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: indeed</nowiki>

[12:40] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: but if it doesn't load, the idea is useless</nowiki>

[12:40] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: the way "gl-pick" works, if I understand it correctly, is that it renders each object with a different color to a side buffer</nowiki>

[12:41] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: eeps</nowiki>

[12:41] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: taper and flatten the object so that the sides become bevelled edges, that makes them viewable and frames your main screen</nowiki>

[12:42] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: well maybe it's best to remain at low priority</nowiki>

[12:42] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: as long as it loads</nowiki>

[12:42] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I use a preload prim that has 7 faces that cycle the next images, heh, but its mesh so I can get away with it easily</nowiki>

[12:42] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: thanks for the ideas: particles, llpreload and sides of the main screen prims</nowiki>

[12:43] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: oh yes, i let the object rotate as well</nowiki>

[12:43] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: sorry, got sidetracked by a phone call...</nowiki>

[12:43] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: once every 10 seconds or so</nowiki>

[12:43] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: that works too a bit</nowiki>

[12:43] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I think we might use the gl-pick method to compute the number of pixels per texture that are being renderd... but am not sure</nowiki>

[12:43] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'll have to ask around</nowiki>

[12:43] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: wuf. if particles work, please let me know:)</nowiki>

[12:44] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki> nods</nowiki>

[12:44] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but if we do, then you need real pixels to be visible before the viewer will give the texture a high priority</nowiki>

[12:44] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: and the more pixels the better</nowiki>

[12:44] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: so if the sides of the box are not visible... might not help</nowiki>

[12:44] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: i need melvin for that, particles are common in fireshows...</nowiki>

[12:44] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: So, Andrew, the viewer prioritises higher-resolution textures?</nowiki>

[12:44] Melvin Starbrook<nowiki> smiles</nowiki>

[12:45] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Does transparency decrease the priority?</nowiki>

[12:45] Melvin Starbrook<nowiki>: wondering how long preloading takes</nowiki>

[12:45] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: rendered pixels on screen Mona</nowiki>

[12:45] Melvin Starbrook<nowiki> giggles</nowiki>

[12:45] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: so size of object</nowiki>

[12:45] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: and number of objects</nowiki>

[12:45] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: you might be right andrew, i noticed that too on occasions</nowiki>

[12:45] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Ah, ok.</nowiki>

[12:45] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: also, there is a higher priority given to the texture under the mouse cursor</nowiki>

[12:45] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: if you right click a object, textures on this object will be forced to load</nowiki>

[12:45] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: solid proof that size does matter!!</nowiki>

[12:45] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: but not much lately</nowiki>

[12:46] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: hihihi</nowiki>

[12:46] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: this is useable on busy sims</nowiki>

[12:46] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: isn't there higher priority with selected obejcts too?</nowiki>

[12:46] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki> quite agrees</nowiki>

[12:46] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: so you have 1000 textures coming in at once and you want to help one texture to download faster</nowiki>

[12:46] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: try hovering the mouse over that texture</nowiki>

[12:46] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: don't know about that Lucia</nowiki>

[12:46] TorqueDom3 Primeau<nowiki>: ok, so a 1024 X 1024 texture takes higher priority than a 512 X 512... but the 1024 has 4X the pixels, meaning it loads 4x slower</nowiki>

[12:46] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: i allways try that andrew</nowiki>

[12:46] Melvin Starbrook<nowiki>: yes just touch that texture.. very handy when shopping lol</nowiki>

[12:46] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: but the last ehm 2 years, that nearly doesn't work no more</nowiki>

[12:46] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but since rendered pixel count helps you can also alt+zoom up close to that texture</nowiki>

[12:47] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: oh ok Wuf, good to know</nowiki>

[12:47] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: and zooming in appears nearly not to work neither lately</nowiki>

[12:47] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'll ask around to see what some of the viewer devs know about the texture download priority system</nowiki>

[12:48] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: maybe it's viewer dependent</nowiki>

[12:48] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i get same thing as wuf. zooming an mouse hoover don't seem to help</nowiki>

[12:48] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Well, maybe it doesn't work like I thought.</nowiki>

[12:49] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki> sees a tester drop down</nowiki>

[12:49] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I think the mouse hover was working for me a couple months ago</nowiki>

[12:49] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: when I was testing scene load metrics for some texture-heavy regions</nowiki>

[12:49] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: If you're seeing texture thrashing where all textures constantly blur/sharpen/blur/sharpen & you hover mouse over an object, the texture under cursor will stop thrashing & stay loaded.</nowiki>

[12:49] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki> thinks that old men shouldn't ride toilets</nowiki>

[12:50] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: My expereince with mouse-hover is that for a time it did nothing. But, recently it seems to have some affect. But, If I'm in a region where textures are slow downloading, nothing really seems to help.</nowiki>

[12:50] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: btw, if you press CTRL + SHIFT + 3 you get a debug display showing the texture download queue</nowiki>

[12:50] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: but what does it say?</nowiki>

[12:51] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: is there an explenation of what you see then?</nowiki>

[12:51] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: oh yes, i set my cache size smaller, and it appears to make a difference</nowiki>

[12:52] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: </nowiki>http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Texture_Console

[12:52] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'm not an expert on the details of the texture debug info</nowiki>

[12:52] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Thanks Qie</nowiki>

[12:52] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but the "State" column indicates how the texture is getting downloaded</nowiki>

[12:52] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Yay, Qie. Thx</nowiki>

[12:52] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The Discard level is the detail</nowiki>

[12:52] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: pff, like i'm at school again</nowiki>

[12:53] Simon Linden<nowiki>: There will be a quiz on Thursday</nowiki>

[12:53] Moon Corrigible<nowiki>: @Simon.. Awww mannn.. and I didnt take notes!</nowiki>

[12:53] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: hihihi with questions about texture consoles?</nowiki>

[12:53] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: that's okay, I'm away Thursday ;-)</nowiki>

[12:54] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: was that a question Wuf? I can't parse it.</nowiki>

[12:54] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki> quickly shakes her head</nowiki>

[12:55] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: but from now on i'll be staring at that texture console...</nowiki>

[12:55] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: what were the crashing bugs that were fixed if that can be discussed?</nowiki>

[12:55] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is almost over</nowiki>

[12:56] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: The crash bug I fixed was actually rather rare... a corruption of the terrain data when building packets.</nowiki>

[12:56] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Happened maybe... 5 times in three weeks.</nowiki>

[12:56] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: But we thought maybe it was related to some interestlist changes so I looked into it anyway.</nowiki>

[12:57] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I've had unexplained crashes on BS and LT every 2 - 3 day ssince Since 13.09.04.280593 was released and probably no unexplained crashes for a month prior</nowiki>

[12:57] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: I was worried you were running out of things to do...</nowiki>

[12:57] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Oh, was it the WARNING: LLSurface::decompressDCTPatch: Received invalid terrain packet then boom crash bug?</nowiki>

[12:58] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: If it's interestlist related I put it near the top of my list. I want to fix any problems I might have introduced.</nowiki>

[12:58] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: No Whirly, it was during the packing stage.</nowiki>

[12:58] Moon Corrigible<nowiki>: After the last 2(?) server updates, sometimes when I first rez an object the 'Touch' option is greyed out. Changing anything - changing groups, interacting with the object, teleporting etc etc fixes it just fine but I'm wondering if that is something that will get looked at in the future (so not a big deal)</nowiki>

[12:58] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: also, still getting delayed script timing decay in regions with high script timing, textures ro mesh quantity</nowiki>

[12:58] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: But yeah, the land packet docompression code is fragile.</nowiki>

[12:59] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: since 13.08.16.279995</nowiki>

[12:59] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: It should be able to discard bad data and re-request the land data.</nowiki>

[12:59] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: oh yes, i was testing with sunlight settings, when i suddenly saw the water on our moat moving very fast. it was repreducable by just playing with the sunsettings.</nowiki>

[12:59] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Moon, that is almost definitely a viewer bug -- the viewer UI state is not correct so it doesn't enable the touch.</nowiki>

[13:00] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i had similar problems as moon</nowiki>

[13:00] Moon Corrigible<nowiki>: Pardon me while I facepalm</nowiki>

[13:00] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: when you were a moon?</nowiki>

[13:00] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Moon - I realize that may be hard to reproduce but I don't recall a bug report like that ... I think it's worth filing one, and hopefully you can mention a place or type of object (complex? simple?) that shows it</nowiki>

[13:00] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: "delayed script timing decay"... what is that Wuf?</nowiki>

[13:00] Meeter<nowiki>: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group</nowiki>

[13:00] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: ?</nowiki>

[13:01] Moon Corrigible<nowiki>: I will do that Simon thank you *grin*</nowiki>

[13:01] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: er... I meant Lucia</nowiki>

[13:01] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: ah</nowiki>

[13:01] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Lucia, what is "delayed script timing decay"?</nowiki>

[13:01] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki> goes google that</nowiki>

[13:01] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: tehre is no german word for this</nowiki>

[13:02] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I normally avg .162ms of script timing everywhere I go, and it usually takes 5 min to get that point, but since 13.08.16.279995 if I'm in regions with high texture or mesh counts or maybe low availabel script timing, it significantly delays up to 15 minutes to get to the avg</nowiki>

[13:02] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: surely there is a german word for it</nowiki>

[13:02] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: hm</nowiki>

[13:02] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I wear a sript meter showing the top 10 script timing of all agents in a region and everyone is beign impacted</nowiki>

[13:03] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and I have't changed anything on me of teh regions I've been monitoring for over a year</nowiki>

[13:03] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: since 13.08.16.279995 decay is delayed significantly</nowiki>

[13:03] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: did anyone ever tried to rename a script while its in a loop ? you cant do it because the inventory of the object refresh every 1 second</nowiki>

[13:04] Simon Linden<nowiki>: What is it like before it settles on that time?</nowiki>

[13:04] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: so if I were to rephrase... your avg script timing tends to grow up to 0.162 and typically takes 5 min to max out, but now sometimes takes 15 min to reach max?</nowiki>

[13:04] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: no, I enter a region and reported script time is high of course but decays longer than before</nowiki>

[13:05] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ah, the relaxation period is longer...</nowiki>

[13:05] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: somethign is impacting it</nowiki>

[13:05] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I don't have an idea. Kelly?</nowiki>

[13:05] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: I can not think of anything that has changed in the last year that would cause that.</nowiki>

[13:06] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: pathfinding;)</nowiki>

[13:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I can't think of why it would change over time</nowiki>

[13:06] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Pathfinding should not have an effect on the rate that script time decays</nowiki>

[13:06] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I just wondered if anything has been changed in prioty with resources</nowiki>

[13:06] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki> can easilly think of 10 reasons</nowiki>

[13:06] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: *priority</nowiki>

[13:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Are the scripts doing anything different over that time?</nowiki>

[13:06] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Lucia, definitely correlated with 13.08.16.279995 you say?</nowiki>

[13:06] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: thats when I started seeing it</nowiki>

[13:07] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I'm always monitorign our guests usage and its quite apparent, esp when my own usage starts showing lwo decay over time</nowiki>

[13:07] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Well, I'll try to look back to see what that release was about.</nowiki>

[13:07] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: esp when I haven't changed anything on me in years</nowiki>

[13:08] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: maybe now is the time for that then?</nowiki>

[13:08] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I need to get going ... thanks everyone for coming today</nowiki>

[13:08] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: pixels r imortal</nowiki>

[13:08] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: laters</nowiki>

[13:08] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: thanks Lindens</nowiki>

[13:08] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: thanks for watching</nowiki>

[13:08] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc simon</nowiki>

[13:08] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Thanks Lindens</nowiki>

[13:08] Moon Corrigible<nowiki>: Thank you!</nowiki>

[13:08] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Thank you, Simon.</nowiki>

[13:08] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Thx Lindens</nowiki>

[13:08] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: thanks for thinking with me</nowiki>

[13:08] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: btw regarding the tos. it seems so many people "love" it that a boycot of the mp and uploads has started to be organize on october 12,13 and 14</nowiki>

[13:08] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: Rex Cronon is talking about "love"</nowiki>

[13:08] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Thanks Lindens!</nowiki>

[13:08] Dolma Dollinger<nowiki>: Thanks!</nowiki>

[13:09] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: cow</nowiki>

[13:09] Melvin Starbrook<nowiki>: tank you :))</nowiki>

[13:09] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: 279995 was a maintenance release...</nowiki>

[13:09] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: there is a misc of changes there</nowiki>

[13:09] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: *grin*</nowiki>

[13:09] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: so she might be right</nowiki>

[13:09] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: none of them related to scripts, andrew.</nowiki>

[13:10] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: but maybe to resources</nowiki>

[13:10] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: actually, there was some work on some llListen() stuff in there</nowiki>

[13:10] Dolma Dollinger<nowiki>: It gives trust you are still doing this. We see too few Lindens lately</nowiki>

[13:10] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: the onyl thing I can think of is a change in priority in resource handling thats affecting script time decay</nowiki>

[13:10] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: such as prioritizing texture and mesh rendering or soemthing</nowiki>

[13:10] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: what call is being used to measure script time?</nowiki>

[13:11] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: llGetObjectDetails()</nowiki>

[13:11] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: llGetTIme</nowiki>

[13:11] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: OBJECT_SCRIPT_TIME</nowiki>

[13:12] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: or was there some change in thresholds/priorities for certain LSL function with high frequency use?</nowiki>

[13:12] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: like sensors for one?</nowiki>

[13:12] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I was looking at the list of changes. Nothing obvious.</nowiki>

[13:13] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: And I don't think that project had any code changes that I wrote.</nowiki>

[13:13] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: I gotta run, bye all</nowiki>

[13:13] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: are there still servers with a version older then 13.08.16.279995?</nowiki>

[13:13] Andrew Linden<nowiki> ducks the blame.</nowiki>

[13:13] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I wish, heh</nowiki>

[13:13] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: you'd live there...</nowiki>

[13:13] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: bye ima</nowiki>

[13:13] Moon Corrigible<nowiki>: lol Andrew</nowiki>

[13:13] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: ducks the blame?</nowiki>

[13:14] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: i didnt do it</nowiki>

[13:14] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: no anvil to duck for?</nowiki>

[13:14] Petr Topaz<nowiki>: passing the buck</nowiki>

[13:14] Petr Topaz<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[13:14] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc ima</nowiki>

[13:14] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Yeah, I don't think it was my fault. Whew!</nowiki>

[13:14] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: melvin, ask one too!</nowiki>

[13:14] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Are we going to have peking ducks?</nowiki>

[13:14] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: it just sucks that I'm having to wait 2 - 3 times as long to see if an agent's time is averaging out to a high value</nowiki>

[13:14] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: take care and have fun, I go home now.</nowiki>

[13:14] Petr Topaz<nowiki>: it was a typo</nowiki>

[13:15] Simon Linden<nowiki>: take it easy - I'm heading off</nowiki>

[13:15] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: as many people are entering the region with high times that linger for quite awhile now, even with near 0 scripts...</nowiki>

[13:15] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: an anvil's black and shiny</nowiki>

[13:15] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: have a nice day all</nowiki>

[13:15] Petr Topaz<nowiki>: Bye Have a good day</nowiki>

[13:15] Simon Linden<nowiki>: lol - I like those ducks</nowiki>

[13:15] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: ouch</nowiki>

[13:15] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: See you, Simon!</nowiki>

[13:15] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: later Simon</nowiki>

[13:15] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: It's very heavy too</nowiki>

[13:15] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: send the lindens some love, they need it</nowiki>

[13:15] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: ANSI Soderstrom is talking about "love"</nowiki>

[13:15] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Lucia did you file a bug? I'm not sure I know how to reproduce the measurement.</nowiki>

[13:15] Melvin Starbrook<nowiki>: hihi ty :))</nowiki>

[13:15] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc all those leaving</nowiki>

[13:15] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: So watch out my furry friend or one will fall on you.</nowiki>

[13:15] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: thats the problem, I'm almost certain it will get the same treatment, "Cannot reproduce"</nowiki>

[13:16] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki> loves duckmeat</nowiki>

[13:16] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: there has to be a comparison to the old behaviour</nowiki>

[13:16] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki> caresses laggy</nowiki>

[13:16] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: want one mona?</nowiki>

[13:16] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: they're free</nowiki>

[13:16] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I'd need a region of my choosing to be placed on aditi using a release older then 13.08.16.279995</nowiki>

[13:16] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: hihihi</nowiki>

[13:16] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i heard ducks signed a petition: please eat chcikens they test better:)</nowiki>

[13:16] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: soem kind of benchmark</nowiki>

[13:17] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: That could be arranged Lucia.</nowiki>

[13:17] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: taste better*</nowiki>

[13:17] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki> loves chicken too</nowiki>

[13:17] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Also, there might already be one on aditi somewhere.</nowiki>

[13:17] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: er... an older version anyway</nowiki>

[13:17] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: would have to move a region over to it</nowiki>

[13:17] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: the only variable is people though, heh, but a region is a start</nowiki>

[13:18] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki> takes a region out of her pocket</nowiki>

[13:18] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: where you want it?</nowiki>

[13:18] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: can you move the region Kenophobe over to aditi if possible</nowiki>

[13:18] Melvin Starbrook<nowiki>: theres a penguin on aditi :P</nowiki>

[13:18] Melvin Starbrook<nowiki>: and bear :)</nowiki>

[13:18] Melvin Starbrook<nowiki>: hihi</nowiki>

[13:18] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: what's the numerical difference between initial avg script time and final script time?</nowiki>

[13:18] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: that bug is most previlent in that region, despite seeing it in most high traffic sandbox regions</nowiki>

[13:18] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: it has textures, mesh and people</nowiki>

[13:19] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: the difference is decay, the start and end vary</nowiki>

[13:19] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: or rather</nowiki>

[13:19] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: the start varies</nowiki>

[13:19] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: the avg is always the same</nowiki>

[13:19] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: the decay is what is prolonged</nowiki>

[13:19] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki> *mews*</nowiki>

[13:19] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: hrm...</nowiki>

[13:19] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: maybe someboy is using one of those sim script lagger?</nowiki>

[13:20] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I thought it was for attachment sonly, but its affecting all scripted objects</nowiki>

[13:20] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: *only</nowiki>

[13:20] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: no Rex</nowiki>

[13:20] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I have better control of my regions than LL, heh</nowiki>

[13:20] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: so what you would like to see is a rapid relaxation from the initial value to the final value</nowiki>

[13:20] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I know when stuff is going on</nowiki>

[13:20] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: or better yet, just a flat stat</nowiki>

[13:21] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I would like to see the same decay time as before 13.08.16.279995</nowiki>

[13:21] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: that is, you would prefer that the stat be correct from the start</nowiki>

[13:21] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: yeah, but why a decay at all?</nowiki>

[13:21] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: memory leak</nowiki>

[13:21] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: well that is another arguement</nowiki>

[13:21] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: ?</nowiki>

[13:21] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: one that had a jira filed too</nowiki>

[13:22] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: by Moy I believe, heh</nowiki>

[13:22] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: a lower stat is better, right? less time spent running the script?</nowiki>

[13:22] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: imo, I'd also rather have a flat timing, but there may be a valid arguement why avg over 30 min is necessary too</nowiki>

[13:23] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: well, I don't know if I'll have much time to look into it</nowiki>

[13:23] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but I"ll try to bring Kenophobe up on aditi for you</nowiki>

[13:23] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki> claws to flying fishy</nowiki>

[13:23] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: in fact, I'll need to bring two copies up</nowiki>

[13:23] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I certainly won't have an answer even if I could validate a difference between a aditi test region and the one on agni</nowiki>

[13:24] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I just know theres a change, heh</nowiki>

[13:24] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: one on an old version and one on a new simulator</nowiki>

[13:24] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: not the cause</nowiki>

[13:24] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: ok, great, Andrew, most appreciated</nowiki>

[13:24] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: well, a repro is important</nowiki>

[13:24] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: if we can't repro any change then we'll have trouble actually trying to fix it</nowiki>

[13:24] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: indeed</nowiki>

[13:25] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: later today Lucia. I'll send you an IM when I have the regions up.</nowiki>

[13:25] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but I'm going to go get some food first.</nowiki>

[13:25] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: ok, I'll keep my eye for it and report to you anythign I find</nowiki>

[13:25] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: thanks</nowiki>

[13:25] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: sorry if I put the meeting into overtime, heh</nowiki>

[13:25] Petr Topaz<nowiki>: byeeee</nowiki>

[13:25] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: 25 mins!</nowiki>

[13:25] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: cheers</nowiki>

[13:25] Melvin Starbrook<nowiki>: Eep!</nowiki>

[13:25] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: stopping chat logger</nowiki>

[13:26] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: go chat logger, go</nowiki>

[13:26] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Take care, Andrew!</nowiki>

[13:26] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Thank you, Rex.</nowiki>

[13:26] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Thank you, Andrew.</nowiki>

[13:26] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: what was that website again, Rex?</nowiki>

[13:26] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: u can see what was talked here: </nowiki>http://rcds.nfshost.com/ques_view_chatLog.php?queOwner=llsl:Rex<nowiki>+Cronon&queName=chatLog&pg=1</nowiki>

[13:26] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: ty</nowiki>

[13:27] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i can't keep it for long though</nowiki>

[13:27] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: only a few days</nowiki>

[13:27] Wuf Shirabyoshi<nowiki>: </nowiki>http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Texture_Console

[13:27] Moon Corrigible<nowiki>: Oh that so rocks!</nowiki>

[13:27] Moon Corrigible<nowiki>: Thank you!</nowiki>

[13:27] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: u welcome yuzuru, lucia</nowiki>

[13:27] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: cliped at 46 minute in</nowiki>

 
[[Simulator_User_Group]]
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| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.09.24|Next 2013.09.24]]
|}

Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.09.10

2013-10-14T16:12:28Z

Andrew Linden: Created page with "Simulator_User_Group {| | Prev 2013.09.03 | Next 2013.09.17 |} == List of Spe…"

[[Simulator_User_Group]]
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| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.09.03|Prev 2013.09.03]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.09.17|Next 2013.09.17]]
|}

== List of Speakers ==
{|
|Adamburp Adamczyk
|Andrew Linden
|ANSI Soderstrom
|-
|Baker Linden
|Ima Mechanique
|Kelly Linden
|-
|Kennylex Luckless
|Lucia Nightfire
|Mona Eberhardt
|-
|Nalates Urriah
|Petr Topaz
|Qie Niangao
|-
|Rex Cronon
|Simon Linden
|TankMaster Finesmith
|-
|Tillie Ariantho
|Whirly Fizzle
|Yuzuru Jewell
|-
|}

== Transcript ==
[12:02] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: And hello Baker!</nowiki>

[12:02] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Meeting can start, Baker is here :-)</nowiki>

[12:02] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: box on head, makes me nostalgic ;-)</nowiki>

[12:02] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Hi Andrew!</nowiki>

[12:02] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Hello!</nowiki>

[12:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Very early, starting about 2am, I think, there were updates to the back-end voice system</nowiki>

[12:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Then we updated the whole grid, main channels and RCs as well</nowiki>

[12:03] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hello baker</nowiki>

[12:03] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hello andrew</nowiki>

[12:03] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hello kelly</nowiki>

[12:03] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: hi</nowiki>

[12:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: We had to restart everything due to the voice change, and so we just did Wednesday's update today</nowiki>

[12:04] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The notes are here: </nowiki>http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2013-09-09/td-p/2191301

[12:05] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The main channel just got the voice update</nowiki>

[12:05] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: There have been no screams about broken voice yet :D (want expecting that lol)</nowiki>

[12:05] Simon Linden<nowiki>: On the Magnum RC, it just got the voice update too. That one has some of Monty's http work on it</nowiki>

[12:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yes ... it's been really quiet about the voice update, which is either really good or really bad news :P</nowiki>

[12:07] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The Bluesteel and LeTigre RC channels have a new maintenance release, and the most interesting bit in there is some threading work on vehicle region crossings</nowiki>

[12:07] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Does this mean we're nearing the death of the diagonal region issue as well, Simon?</nowiki>

[12:08] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I think that didn't get into the release notes ... we're not expecting a big impact anyway</nowiki>

[12:08] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I don't think there was any work done that would change that, Mona</nowiki>

[12:08] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: It doesn't mean the death of region crossing problems</nowiki>

[12:08] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Definitely not :)</nowiki>

[12:09] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but the data streaming on the way OUT of the region is now threaded</nowiki>

[12:09] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That's all my news ... Kelly, Baker or Andrew, do you have anything?</nowiki>

[12:09] Tillie Ariantho<nowiki>: People are dying at region crossings? ;-D</nowiki>

[12:09] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: which doesn't make the crossing any faster, but may reduce lag spikes as witnessed by everyone else</nowiki>

[12:10] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: The threading change Simon mentioned moves vehicle serialization only into the same thread as agent serialization to fix a rare server crash mode due to a race condition serializing scripts in some very specific cases.</nowiki>

[12:10] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: ie, SEC-1204?</nowiki>

[12:10] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: btw, haven't had crashes for weeks in regards to that</nowiki>

[12:11] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: The only news I've got is regarding something we talked about a couple weeks ago... bypassing parcel autoreturn by using recursive self-rezzers.</nowiki>

[12:11] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: possibly related Lucy.</nowiki>

[12:11] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: you mean self-replicators as recurrsive rezzers still plaque the grid</nowiki>

[12:11] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: We discussed the possibility of only autoreturning unattended self-rezzers</nowiki>

[12:11] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: *plague</nowiki>

[12:11] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: so, replicators r no longer replicating</nowiki>

[12:11] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: ?</nowiki>

[12:11] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: however after an internal discussion we decided to not open up that exception</nowiki>

[12:12] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: from my lite testing non-rez-time refreshing self-replicating means fail</nowiki>

[12:12] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: if that makes sense</nowiki>

[12:12] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Also, I've noticed that recently objects are failing to draw. They don't appear - and even with render metadata --> bounding boxes there's nothing to show they're there, but we collide with them. Anything about that?</nowiki>

[12:12] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: since it causes inconsistent behavior: different autoreturn times depending on whether the owner is present or not can lead to confusion</nowiki>

[12:13] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: and also it would bypass the spirit of the autoreturn feature which parcel owners are expecting -- that objects get autoreturned</nowiki>

[12:13] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I still say we need a parcel setting that a land owner can check/uncheck for unattended rezzing</nowiki>

[12:14] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Mona, truly invisible objects that collide but the viewer knows nothing about would be a bug that would get my attention.</nowiki>

[12:14] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i gree with lucia</nowiki>

[12:14] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: If you have a way to reproduce it, then I'd start looking into it.</nowiki>

[12:14] Baker Linden<nowiki>: I'm finishing the last touches for group ban before I push it out to RC. It'll still be a few weeks, but I'm planning on having it on Aditi by the end of the month, that's all I got.</nowiki>

[12:15] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I'm hesitant to release the extended parcel resource restriction feature request jira of mine as I'm afriad people will only focus on the ability to restrict instead of the benefits it gives land owners aside from proactively dealing with resource abuse</nowiki>

[12:16] Escapades Basic Bashables Stick 3.1 (WEAR ME!)<nowiki>: releasing controls</nowiki>

[12:16] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Darn, this still need to be fixed.</nowiki>

[12:16] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: as there are a lot of resource restriction abilities involved</nowiki>

[12:16] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: well the feature request is pretty much blocked until you release it for discussion, Lucia</nowiki>

[12:16] Tillie Ariantho<nowiki>: Group ban will be cool, for some time... :P There's griefer and copybotter groups you can ban in one go then.. ;)</nowiki>

[12:17] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Any chance of a test viewer to poke at when it goes to Aditi Baker? :P</nowiki>

[12:17] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: even if you release it... there is no guarantee that it can be implemented</nowiki>

[12:17] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Lucy, I think we're most likely to take baby steps towards that rather than have a big overhaul adding lots of limits and checks, so if there are smaller ideas or features you can isolate, those might be better to look at</nowiki>

[12:17] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yeah, I'm gonna have to cave and release it but probably in lite format</nowiki>

[12:17] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: some things are easy to say but hard to get done</nowiki>

[12:18] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I do have a higher priority/more feasible portion of that list which is what I'll focus on, heh</nowiki>

[12:18] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: llDoWhatIMeanNotWhatISay()</nowiki>

[12:18] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Whirly, a test viewer will be provided :)</nowiki>

[12:18] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: llReadMyMind()</nowiki>

[12:18] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: AWesome :)</nowiki>

[12:18] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: llPutOuijaBoardOnTable</nowiki>

[12:19] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: FSDoWhatLLMentAndNotWhatTheyDid</nowiki>

[12:19] Tillie Ariantho<nowiki>: I'd be happy with some llSetProjectorPropertiesFinally() ;)</nowiki>

[12:19] Petr Topaz<nowiki>: grr</nowiki>

[12:19] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: llChannelTheSpirits()</nowiki>

[12:19] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: llEval(thisCode); would be also cool</nowiki>

[12:19] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Tillie: coupled with llSetMaterialPropertiesAlready()</nowiki>

[12:19] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: so what else are you looking at to counter griefing Andrew?</nowiki>

[12:19] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: that would always return false</nowiki>

[12:20] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: ansi</nowiki>

[12:20] Tillie Ariantho<nowiki>: Qie: yes!</nowiki>

[12:20] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: lol tankmaster</nowiki>

[12:20] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: btw. whta is wrong with the viewer? if u rotate the root in a linked set than all the other prims in the linked set rotate too. even if in edit window u choose "edit linked"</nowiki>

[12:20] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: "Despite our best effort ..... try again at 21:12pst"...</nowiki>

[12:21] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Lucia, I don't have a next project at the top of my list yet.</nowiki>

[12:21] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: My anti-grief work is sorta a side project, but then all three or four of my projects are on the side.</nowiki>

[12:21] Tillie Ariantho<nowiki>: Rex: and you only selected the root prim then? :)</nowiki>

[12:21] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Minna is full of big mega prims left over from a grief, there should be a better way to be able to get a sim cleaned if oldies and, lifetime users do not want to set an auto return.</nowiki>

[12:21] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'm just trying to juggle several little projects at once.</nowiki>

[12:21] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: yes tillie</nowiki>

[12:22] Tillie Ariantho<nowiki>: Rex: then it's magic :D</nowiki>

[12:22] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: its borked magic:)</nowiki>

[12:22] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: if the lifetime members would be alive @ kenny</nowiki>

[12:22] Tillie Ariantho<nowiki>: could be a bug too, but magic sound way better. :P</nowiki>

[12:23] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: The megaprims in Minna are encroaching on parcels? They could be returned that way.</nowiki>

[12:24] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Is Minna completely LL owned? Or are there private parcels there?</nowiki>

[12:24] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: they dont overlap the borders of our own land, so its not possible</nowiki>

[12:24] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: btw, theres still issues with returning prims encroaching from other regions</nowiki>

[12:24] Andrew Linden<nowiki> forgets what is on Minna.</nowiki>

[12:24] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I have a prim encroaching into my own region I can't return</nowiki>

[12:24] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: there is a lot of empty land from lifetimembers and so on, they arent online for a long time</nowiki>

[12:24] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: I has clean all I could, now it over land where users seldom are here.</nowiki>

[12:25] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Hrm... Lucia I know of a few failure modes for prim encrochment return, but I'm curious as to which one is happening on your parcel.</nowiki>

[12:25] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: its a prim underground at the SE corner</nowiki>

[12:25] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: and some oldies do not care so much of SL so they know they can return prims by hand</nowiki>

[12:25] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: i LOVED that one where you can return over hanging ones</nowiki>

[12:25] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Yeah, there is one in my home region Fishergate too.</nowiki>

[12:25] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: I did spent 2 h cleaning by hand</nowiki>

[12:25] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'll try to go look at Minna to see if I can come up with some ideas on how to make that stuff removable.</nowiki>

[12:26] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: LL should define a Lifetime to 10y in SL :-)</nowiki>

[12:26] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: the best way to detect a grief, is looking for single prims</nowiki>

[12:26] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: if a user rez 200 single prims in one minute, its for sure a griefer</nowiki>

[12:27] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: if there is a linked prim, then not</nowiki>

[12:27] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Lucia, in what region is your encroached parcel located?</nowiki>

[12:27] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Or they are using an automatic weapon...</nowiki>

[12:27] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Querqua</nowiki>

[12:27] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: but they are temp</nowiki>

[12:27] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: true</nowiki>

[12:27] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: object is encroaching from Oxitage</nowiki>

[12:27] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ok thanks</nowiki>

[12:28] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: The one we cannot return from Fishergate is anchored in Demelo.</nowiki>

[12:28] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ANSI, there are some "legit" machine guns that rez faster than 200 prims/minute</nowiki>

[12:29] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: yes, but temp prims @ andrew</nowiki>

[12:29] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yeah, you have to do a little more evaling than just single prim rezzing</nowiki>

[12:29] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: not keeping some hours on the sim</nowiki>

[12:29] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: like size for one, heh</nowiki>

[12:29] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I can't remember if there is some bias in the grey goo fence against non-temp prims...</nowiki>

[12:29] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: temp on rez, two</nowiki>

[12:29] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: probably not</nowiki>

[12:29] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: owner present, three, heh</nowiki>

[12:30] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Another thing that is basically griefing w/ objects is what AnnMarie Otoole does with her vehicles. See a description of her latest antics here: </nowiki>http://poultryreport.blogspot.it/2013/08/rolling-eyesores.html

[12:30] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is half over</nowiki>

[12:30] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: they fill the sim, forth</nowiki>

[12:30] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: theres bias with rez from inventory</nowiki>

[12:30] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Weapon thet rez bullets thet not is temp sound be called griefer tools.</nowiki>

[12:30] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: which is why illegal tpv's with a "fill sim feature can fill a region with single prism in seconds</nowiki>

[12:30] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: remotely even</nowiki>

[12:31] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SEC-1247

[12:32] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: which goes back to unattended rezzing</nowiki>

[12:32] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: I will speak up for anne o'toole, when I've reported her vehucles to hr, she's removed them</nowiki>

[12:32] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Hrm... really fast rezzing by TPV's should be detectable server-side</nowiki>

[12:33] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I've witnessed that filling on many occasion</nowiki>

[12:33] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: the server doesn't stop it</nowiki>

[12:34] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Yeah, I know. Just musing that I could add detection</nowiki>

[12:34] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: however, there are probably a few TPV's that do some sort of content import that might run afoul of any new logic I add.</nowiki>

[12:34] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Yeah I was just wondering about importing</nowiki>

[12:35] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: The TPV's might have to lower their rez rate for import</nowiki>

[12:35] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: I know in Firestorms import Tech added some kind of throttle so it didn't create prims too fast</nowiki>

[12:35] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: or not targe parcels the owner isn't on, wink</nowiki>

[12:35] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: however... if we drop it from taking only 1 second to say 5 seconds to fill the region... that doesn't help much</nowiki>

[12:36] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: we'd have to add pivot logic on user credentials and account age or something</nowiki>

[12:36] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I think account age won't matter</nowiki>

[12:36] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I've seen dated accounts using those tpv's</nowiki>

[12:36] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: no payment info on file : no access to mailnad</nowiki>

[12:36] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: in my encoutners, its been 50/50 between aged and new accoutns using it</nowiki>

[12:37] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: its all an arms race, but still a race worth running sometimes</nowiki>

[12:37] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: or no rezzing</nowiki>

[12:37] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: wait a little ansi. not everybody is a griefer:(</nowiki>

[12:37] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Some of the aged accounts are possible hacked accounts too</nowiki>

[12:37] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: not ?</nowiki>

[12:38] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: ANSI: I think the lesson is that if you wait long enough, everybody *will* be a griefer. :p</nowiki>

[12:38] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: lmao</nowiki>

[12:38] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Well, LL slogan do describe a grief.</nowiki>

[12:38] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Griefing: It all starts with a cube.</nowiki>

[12:38] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: so we need a autodelete of avatars, no account should be older than 1 year</nowiki>

[12:38] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: problem solved ;)</nowiki>

[12:38] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: [joking]</nowiki>

[12:39] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: you can't stop griefing, you can only slow it or limit it</nowiki>

[12:39] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: On another subject... I was thinking about trying to resurrect my llSetUniformScaleFactor() project (or some better name) that would allow you to scale an entire linked object with one call.</nowiki>

[12:39] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: first we have to detect it</nowiki>

[12:39] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: actually you just reminded me</nowiki>

[12:39] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: all other is storytelling</nowiki>

[12:39] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I think that was frowned on due to teh update cost</nowiki>

[12:39] Petr Topaz<nowiki>: hope we get a pension when we get deleted</nowiki>

[12:39] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: I meant to send a notice to my land grouop I';m changing the sim to payment info on fiel acces</nowiki>

[12:40] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: But it would need some helper functions: llGetMaxScaleFactor() and llGetMinScaleFactor() to tell you how much scaling is possible.</nowiki>

[12:40] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: which is why there is no root only pos/rot/scale</nowiki>

[12:40] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: scratch scale</nowiki>

[12:41] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: The viewer can scale an entire linked object in one operation -- it generates lots of object updates</nowiki>

[12:41] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but doing it piecemeal produces the same number of updates.</nowiki>

[12:42] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: if we get root onyl pos and rot ability, I'm all for it, heh</nowiki>

[12:42] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: And, doing it piecemeal generates more physics shape rebuilds than just doing it all at once.</nowiki>

[12:42] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: What do you mean Lucia? "root only pos and rot ability" ?</nowiki>

[12:42] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: by script</nowiki>

[12:43] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: atm you can't only rot or pos, the root without the whole linsket rotating or positioning</nowiki>

[12:43] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: by script</nowiki>

[12:43] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: lol rot ability... aka slow temp? after a while the prim pots away... :P</nowiki>

[12:44] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: rots*</nowiki>

[12:44] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: and if u rotate the root manually all the other links rotate too even if u select "edit linked" in the edit window</nowiki>

[12:45] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ok yes, but that is completely distinct from a uniform scale operation on the whole object</nowiki>

[12:45] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: you're just saying that root-only transform change should be of higher priority?</nowiki>

[12:45] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: not really, equally if anything esp if it costs teh same update wise</nowiki>

[12:46] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I have use for both.</nowiki>

[12:46] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ok, I'll ponder the root-only transform change</nowiki>

[12:46] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: resizing is sort of higher priority though from common usage</nowiki>

[12:46] Object<nowiki>: Hello, Avatar!</nowiki>

[12:47] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I wrote the code for that a long time ago... but it was never hooked up to a script call.</nowiki>

[12:47] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Rex, that doesn't happen for me btw</nowiki>

[12:47] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Whirly: right, I can't get it to happen either</nowiki>

[12:47] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I'm sure the clothing/show/hair market will thank you for the scalign function</nowiki>

[12:47] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: *shoe</nowiki>

[12:47] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: I think we would have been hearing builders screaming if it was heh</nowiki>

[12:48] Tillie Ariantho<nowiki>: Rex: "It's not the spoon that's bending." :P</nowiki>

[12:48] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: lmao</nowiki>

[12:48] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ANSI, are you using 7 or 8 selection points to generate your heart shaped selection particles?</nowiki>

[12:48] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: What viewer are you on Rex?</nowiki>

[12:48] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: who can see a difference</nowiki>

[12:49] Tillie Ariantho<nowiki>: The 1script-scaling seller will curse you. :P</nowiki>

[12:49] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: you might as well ask him his three sizes, Whirls, lol</nowiki>

[12:49] Tillie Ariantho<nowiki>: sellers</nowiki>

[12:49] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: ll's viewer</nowiki>

[12:49] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: nvm, heh</nowiki>

[12:50] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: if(llGetMassFromObjectOwner(id) > 50% of SIM and he is no Groupmember) then its a jerk</nowiki>

[12:50] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Andrew are you thinkign of putting in a delay in that function?</nowiki>

[12:50] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: which function?</nowiki>

[12:50] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: if(numberOfObjects == NumberOfPrims) then he is a bad jerk</nowiki>

[12:50] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I know recently that LL frowns on delays, but I think that particular one may need it for sanity sake</nowiki>

[12:50] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: the linkset scaler</nowiki>

[12:51] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I dunno yet. I'll have to write the code first and see what kind of damage I can do.</nowiki>

[12:51] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and when I say sanity I mean server/viewer/bandwidth</nowiki>

[12:51] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'd be more worried about update rates than actual physics shape changes.</nowiki>

[12:52] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: We already have some protection on abusive shape change rates.</nowiki>

[12:52] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I'm already seeing apps it can be abused with, heh</nowiki>

[12:53] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: but thats how it goes</nowiki>

[12:53] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: anything good can be abused, heh</nowiki>

[12:53] Tillie Ariantho<nowiki>: You can abuse meshes too, still no one thinks of disabling uploads of meshes ...</nowiki>

[12:53] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Don't we have llSetLinkPrimParamsFast() method or something? What's the throttle on that?</nowiki>

[12:54] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: speed of light minus 1</nowiki>

[12:54] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: ie, no delay</nowiki>

[12:54] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: light has a speed of 1</nowiki>

[12:54] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: right</nowiki>

[12:54] Tillie Ariantho<nowiki>: And if there's a delay in scaling, griefers will just link 255 prims, rezz 10 of them, and scale all those as fast as possible... they will always find a way to grief you quickly.</nowiki>

[12:55] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is almost over</nowiki>

[12:55] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: 255 linked objects are easier to clean up.</nowiki>

[12:55] Tillie Ariantho<nowiki>: I mean, you need 1 mesh to drop anyones framerate to 0.01... :P</nowiki>

[12:55] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: you don't even need obejcts to drop framerate</nowiki>

[12:55] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: or to crash regions...</nowiki>

[12:56] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: which is sad...</nowiki>

[12:57] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: If it is that kind of hacker noob grief, but most griefers just want attetnion like PN and they to 90 % drop things in a sim.</nowiki>

[12:57] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: everyone wants attn</nowiki>

[12:58] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: so anything comign down the pipe thats intersting?</nowiki>

[12:58] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: we need a algo to see if a linkset is "logical" formed of if the sizes of the prims, the rotation and position is "not logical"</nowiki>

[12:58] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Good luck with that, ANSI.</nowiki>

[12:58] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: We need some advanced form of AI to perform that algorithm.</nowiki>

[12:59] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: for what definition of "logical"? lol.</nowiki>

[12:59] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Perhaps the AI would need an artistic eye.</nowiki>

[12:59] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Exactly. And such algorithms will always be easy to fool and manipulate.</nowiki>

[12:59] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: So we cant trust Lindens ?</nowiki>

[13:00] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: many artist's eyes. how would it find abstract?</nowiki>

[13:00] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: i thought they re our last hope</nowiki>

[13:00] Meeter<nowiki>: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group</nowiki>

[13:00] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: we can truse siman and adnrew! :P</nowiki>

[13:00] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: If it just stop old grief so griefer always has to work or pay, then it is good.</nowiki>

[13:00] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: old grief?</nowiki>

[13:01] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: lol add griefing to benefits of a premium account</nowiki>

[13:01] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: LL should clean out images griefer use and let them upload again, let them wotk and pay, that is the trick.</nowiki>

[13:01] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: good luck getting overnance to blacklist any image for any reason</nowiki>

[13:02] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Yes many grief are old code snippets and often same images in landfilling grief.</nowiki>

[13:02] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: u say the image is p0rn:)</nowiki>

[13:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I have to run - thanks everyone for coming this week</nowiki>

[13:02] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: laters</nowiki>

[13:02] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: say it id kiddy-porn would work faster, course that might get you banned too</nowiki>

[13:03] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: thanks for watching</nowiki>

[13:03] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Yes, thanks for coming.</nowiki>

[13:03] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Thanks Simon, all... have fun!</nowiki>

[13:03] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Thank you, Lindens.</nowiki>

[13:03] Petr Topaz<nowiki>: Byeee</nowiki>

[13:03] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki> whispers: Thanks for having us, Simon.</nowiki>

[13:03] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Thanks Lindens</nowiki>

[13:03] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Thanks Lindens.</nowiki>

[13:03] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Thx Lindens</nowiki>

[13:03] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: thanks Lindens</nowiki>

[13:03] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: i still think its funny that when we blocked FS 4.2.1 that we blocked a griffing viewer that was based on it :P</nowiki>

[13:03] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc simon</nowiki>

[13:03] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc andrew</nowiki>

[13:03] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: tc simon, andrew, kelly</nowiki>

[13:03] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Some time it is porn, but what I has seen on some griefer cobes do I not see as porn at all, they are just gross.</nowiki>

[13:03] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: tc</nowiki>

 
[[Simulator_User_Group]]
{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.09.03|Prev 2013.09.03]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.09.17|Next 2013.09.17]]
|}

Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.09.03

2013-10-14T16:11:29Z

Andrew Linden: Created page with "Simulator_User_Group {| | Prev 2013.08.27 | Next 2013.09.10 |} == List of Spe…"

[[Simulator_User_Group]]
{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.08.27|Prev 2013.08.27]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.09.10|Next 2013.09.10]]
|}

== List of Speakers ==
{|
|Adamburp Adamczyk
|Andrew Linden
|ANSI Soderstrom
|-
|Baker Linden
|Callak Skytower
|Duckie Dickins
|-
|Ima Mechanique
|Kelly Linden
|Kennylex Luckless
|-
|Lucia Nightfire
|Mona Eberhardt
|Nalates Urriah
|-
|Petr Topaz
|Squirrel Wood
|TankMaster Finesmith
|-
|Whirly Fizzle
|}

== Transcript ==
[12:01] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Hi Andrew!</nowiki>

[12:01] Callak Skytower<nowiki>: Hello everyone!</nowiki>

[12:01] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: hello</nowiki>

[12:01] Petr Topaz<nowiki>: Thank you Mona</nowiki>

[12:01] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: hello</nowiki>

[12:01] Petr Topaz<nowiki>: Hi Andrew</nowiki>

[12:01] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: ayup and yoohoo</nowiki>

[12:02] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Simon can't make it today</nowiki>

[12:02] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: ANSI, I think you have a script stuck in a loop or something, lol</nowiki>

[12:02] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: hi</nowiki>

[12:02] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: no, its a AO</nowiki>

[12:03] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: you dont want to know the name from this anim</nowiki>

[12:03] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: an AO running 2.0+ ms?</nowiki>

[12:03] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Hia, I has to find something match ANSI</nowiki>

[12:03] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: so I'll try to go over the server deploys this week</nowiki>

[12:03] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: hey baker</nowiki>

[12:03] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Hi Baker.</nowiki>

[12:03] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Hello everyone</nowiki>

[12:03] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: 'sup bakerino?</nowiki>

[12:03] Petr Topaz<nowiki>: Hi Baker</nowiki>

[12:04] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: It looks like all the RC's will get the same update this week</nowiki>

[12:04] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Hello Baker and the rest.... and Andrew.</nowiki>

[12:05] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: And the main channel was updated with whatever was on the RC's this last week: some maintenance and bug fixes</nowiki>

[12:05] Callak Skytower<nowiki>: Hi Whirly Fizzle!</nowiki>

[12:05] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Actually due to the holiday all server updates are bumped one day.</nowiki>

[12:05] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: So the main channel will get updated tomorrow and the RCs on Thursday.</nowiki>

[12:06] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: the only thing I contributed to the update going to the main channel was fixing a grief mode where really big objects could push avatars out of a the region.</nowiki>

[12:06] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: what specifically was taht change?</nowiki>

[12:06] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Oh, that's good.</nowiki>

[12:06] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: oh right, thanks Kelly, the updates are going out one day late this week</nowiki>

[12:06] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I notice faux rotating kfm megaprims don't knock people out of the sim anymroe, heh</nowiki>

[12:07] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: yeah, as Lucia mentioned... I was targeting those objects specifically</nowiki>

[12:07] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: that is, the faux rotating megaprims</nowiki>

[12:07] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Andrew, any chance for a change in marketplace abuse report options?</nowiki>

[12:07] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: the physics engine "resolve interpenetrating objects" collision logic would kick in and push the avatars out of the very big objects</nowiki>

[12:08] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: we had some collision-bypass code there specifically for avatars, but it had been broken some time ago and I fixed it.</nowiki>

[12:08] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: It might be beyond the scope of these meetings, but it would help, especially with people who sell graphics/sim crashers (and use lame disclaimers like "don't use it for griefing").</nowiki>

[12:08] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki> tests using his 65535m cube :P</nowiki>

[12:08] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: mona, don;t waste your time. I can writ ethe book on trying to ar mp stuff - not a convo for this place</nowiki>

[12:09] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: OK Adam.</nowiki>

[12:10] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Mona, I'm more interested in coming up with technical fixes for the grief modes...</nowiki>

[12:10] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: hardening the server, basically</nowiki>

[12:10] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki> loks at the staff present ut points out, support are not interested, and I refuse to get on me soapbox</nowiki>

[12:10] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: the agenda is not the agenda from today, isnt it ?</nowiki>

[12:10] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ANSI, you're talking about the agenda on the wiki page for this user group?</nowiki>

[12:10] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I'll be filing that parcel resource restrictions feature request sometime this week hopefully although I'm not sure how lengthy to make it as it could be quite long..and boring...</nowiki>

[12:10] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: probably not</nowiki>

[12:10] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: yes sir</nowiki>

[12:11] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: yeah, I'm sure everything on that agenda is old</nowiki>

[12:11] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: the last entry is very fresh</nowiki>

[12:12] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'll try to look it over later today and probably remove it -- I never look at the agenda before the meeting.</nowiki>

[12:12] Callak Skytower<nowiki>: I'm new here, can someone link me the referred to agenda?</nowiki>

[12:12] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: makes sense</nowiki>

[12:12] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I rely on you guys to just put the items on the table when it becomes open.</nowiki>

[12:12] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: </nowiki>https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Simulator_User_Group

[12:12] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: put your guns/cards/money on teh table everyone</nowiki>

[12:12] Callak Skytower<nowiki>: TY!</nowiki>

[12:13] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: i want to say : BUG ! some LSL-Events are nt fired (or put in queue) while a script is in a loop</nowiki>

[12:13] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Anyway, I think the RC update going out on thursday is...</nowiki>

[12:14] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: some web service maintenance being done by Monty Linden</nowiki>

[12:14] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: pretty minor config changes, but they didn't have another project on which to piggyback</nowiki>

[12:15] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ok, that's all the news I've got</nowiki>

[12:15] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: thanks</nowiki>

[12:16] Baker Linden<nowiki>: I'm finishing up group ban stuff -- well, by "finishing up" I mean "working on the last bits of UI hookups and validation checks on the back-end. It'll still be a bit before it's ready for RC, but it's coming close quickly!</nowiki>

[12:16] Baker Linden<nowiki>: that's all I got</nowiki>

[12:16] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ok, table is open</nowiki>

[12:16] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: there a dev/beta viewer with those changes coming soon Baker?</nowiki>

[12:16] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: s it possible to get Substance Designer (textures) implementation in SL, with Substance Designer can you do complex textures that only take some few Kb on the server. </nowiki>http://www.allegorithmic.com/

[12:16] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: news for the table : BUG ! some LSL-Events are nt fired (or put in queue) while a script is in a loop</nowiki>

[12:16] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: ANSI have you filed a jira for that bug?</nowiki>

[12:16] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: no</nowiki>

[12:17] Andrew Linden<nowiki> is not familiar with Substance Designer</nowiki>

[12:17] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Look in to it, it a sugestion for the futore.</nowiki>

[12:17] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: future</nowiki>

[12:17] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: i ll write a jira for you @ kelly</nowiki>

[12:17] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Thanks ansi</nowiki>

[12:18] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Are you talking about procedural textures, Kenny? If yes, I wouldn't count on that. LL are locked-in with Kakadu (the JPG2000 developers), so it's unlikely we'll see that anytime soon.</nowiki>

[12:18] Object<nowiki>: Hello, Avatar!</nowiki>

[12:18] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: Subsyance Designer appears to be a proprietry piece od software</nowiki>

[12:18] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: So's JPG2000, Ima. :/</nowiki>

[12:19] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: JPEG2000 is more a library, not a whole software app</nowiki>

[12:19] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'll look at the videos later, but at a quick glance it appears to be a way to texture stuff faster using some material settings</nowiki>

[12:19] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: /mewishe textures were saved in a lossless compression</nowiki>

[12:20] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: the JPEG2000 standard is open, no? but library implementations can be proprietary or closed</nowiki>

[12:20] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Is Kakadu's implementation open?</nowiki>

[12:21] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: no Kakadu is closed, I believe</nowiki>

[12:21] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: no, KDU is closed source</nowiki>

[12:21] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: wasn't kakadu one of the nutters in the hilles have eyes 2, 1977 version?</nowiki>

[12:21] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: At any rate, I do believe it'd be beneficial to provide support for procedural textures as well. Far smaller sizes.</nowiki>

[12:22] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: self compilers cant use KDU when making their own builds unless they buy a license from kakadu</nowiki>

[12:22] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: yes Mona, it that would be an nice feature -- basically an advanced materials system</nowiki>

[12:22] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Substance designer material 4096x4096 is generated faster for me than I can DL a 512x512 material now</nowiki>

[12:23] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: where you specify the material, with some parameter settings, and the system textures it for you</nowiki>

[12:24] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Best is that LL can take pay afteer complexity of material, thet will make folk creatr less complex textures :-D</nowiki>

[12:24] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Interestingly, in the very beginning of SL (before it was known as SL) we wanted to use Perlin noise for texture generation</nowiki>

[12:24] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: and material settings</nowiki>

[12:24] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Perlin noise is the foundation of all textures :-)</nowiki>

[12:25] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: what was SL called before it was SL? "Unnamed Project #1"?</nowiki>

[12:25] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: "laggy life"</nowiki>

[12:25] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: we called it "Linden World" for lack of a better name, but knew we wanted something else.</nowiki>

[12:25] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Super Linden World</nowiki>

[12:25] Petr Topaz<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[12:26] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: SL 2.0 should be called Linden World :-)</nowiki>

[12:26] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Of course, SL isn't inhabited by mustachio'ed plumbers.</nowiki>

[12:26] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I bet to differe</nowiki>

[12:27] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: sure it is</nowiki>

[12:27] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: marios inhabit the sandboxes on occasion heh</nowiki>

[12:27] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: what mona?</nowiki>

[12:27] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: plumbers are *very* popular griefing textures ;-)</nowiki>

[12:28] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: We recently shipped a "materials" system, right? Mostly viewer-side.</nowiki>

[12:28] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Or is that still in beta?</nowiki>

[12:29] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: its shiped</nowiki>

[12:29] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Materails is a bit odd</nowiki>

[12:29] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: As I recall it isn't really parametric like Substance Designer</nowiki>

[12:29] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but allows you to specify detail and normal-map textures or something</nowiki>

[12:29] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: brightnes in diffuse alpha is according to me a bed idea.</nowiki>

[12:30] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: bad</nowiki>

[12:30] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Can't you have substance designer export the raw diffuse, spec and normal maps for use in SL?</nowiki>

[12:30] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is half over</nowiki>

[12:30] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Then I can not do a window with glowing borders</nowiki>

[12:31] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'm sure substance designer could be used to generate textures for meshes that are built with other 3rd party modelling applications</nowiki>

[12:32] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but it would be better to be able to use something like SD in SL on any object</nowiki>

[12:32] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Andrew, we now have diffuse, normal, and specular maps that we can use. Plus changes in how shiny works.</nowiki>

[12:32] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: I use SubDesigner to make texture, but it hard to get it right due to I has to put specular strengthe in a alpha layer</nowiki>

[12:32] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: and let the viewer compute the textures</nowiki>

[12:32] Baker Linden<nowiki>: substance designer puts spec in the diffuse alpha layer?</nowiki>

[12:33] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: I do not really know, it generates in client</nowiki>

[12:33] Baker Linden<nowiki>: ahh</nowiki>

[12:33] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: textures are not saved</nowiki>

[12:33] Baker Linden<nowiki>: oh, I see</nowiki>

[12:33] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: so risk for copubotting is little</nowiki>

[12:34] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: But, cuestion is, is it posible without break content.</nowiki>

[12:34] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: question</nowiki>

[12:34] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: yeah well... the SD texture params could easily be copied with a modified viewer</nowiki>

[12:34] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: anythign rendered could be copied/reverse engineered</nowiki>

[12:35] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Kennylex, yes I think it is theoretically possible to use something like SD to enhance new content without breaking old content.</nowiki>

[12:35] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: It would be lots of wok.</nowiki>

[12:35] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Kenny, which program do you use? there's designer, bitmap 2 material, player</nowiki>

[12:35] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Yes, it was therefor I did say "for the future"</nowiki>

[12:36] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: But it would be ful to see a test prodject.</nowiki>

[12:36] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: fun</nowiki>

[12:36] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Something to consider for SL-2.0</nowiki>

[12:37] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: :-)</nowiki>

[12:37] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: or SL 2.1 Rc4</nowiki>

[12:37] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: to come out in 2020? :P</nowiki>

[12:38] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Right, it would be hard to make an SL-2.0 with all the features we ever wanted at first launch.</nowiki>

[12:38] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Handgranade terraforming?</nowiki>

[12:39] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Hehe</nowiki>

[12:39] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: You may laugh, but genage terraforming was kinda fun.</nowiki>

[12:39] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: grenade terraforming</nowiki>

[12:39] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: :-D</nowiki>

[12:39] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[12:39] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: lol we can do that now. I have a terraforming bomb</nowiki>

[12:40] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I know of a Linden that used them in a non-Governor Linden sandbox while in GM too, heh</nowiki>

[12:41] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: when you write software... you often don't get it right until the third rewrite</nowiki>

[12:41] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: or 12th</nowiki>

[12:41] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Seconded, Andrew.</nowiki>

[12:41] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: we never did a complete rewrite of SL... instead we've done overhauls and occasional rewrites of sub systems</nowiki>

[12:41] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: so....SL 3.0 then.</nowiki>

[12:41] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: No one want version 1.0 software</nowiki>

[12:41] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: all the while adding new features</nowiki>

[12:42] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: so SL is featureful... but has been written about 1.5 times</nowiki>

[12:42] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: I think it is that making SL so fun, it is not technical perfect, but social it is so fun.</nowiki>

[12:43] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Anyone know why for the last two weeks in regions with no spare timing, all script time of attachments takes twice as long for their averages to drop over time?</nowiki>

[12:43] Andrew Linden<nowiki> does not know. Kelly?</nowiki>

[12:44] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: I can't think of anything that would cause that.</nowiki>

[12:44] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: What does that mean exactly? So if an attachment script were to spike its runtime... the relaxation of the measured runtime takes longer to decay?</nowiki>

[12:45] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: no spare time present is the onyl thing I see when I notice times takign forever to drop</nowiki>

[12:45] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Btw, I has a riddle for you, "How to do a ban line no Linens can pass"?</nowiki>

[12:45] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[12:45] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: place a melon</nowiki>

[12:46] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: or a hippo?</nowiki>

[12:46] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: It has a logical answer :-)</nowiki>

[12:46] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: "no spare time" means (I think) that something (not scripts) is taking up most of the server frame time, so scripts get only their bare minimum amount of time to run</nowiki>

[12:47] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: the thing taking up the server frame could be physics, avatar network traffic, or maybe other things</nowiki>

[12:47] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: No spare time means, usually, that not all scripts were run during the frame</nowiki>

[12:48] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I'm noticing it onyl in regions with no spare time, and no excessive total timing</nowiki>

[12:48] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: that is a consequence of not having spare time, Kelly? or the definition of no spare time?</nowiki>

[12:48] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I watch it in several sandboxes I admin all teh time and as of three releases ago, decay/drop is taking much longer in those regions</nowiki>

[12:48] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: it is possible that if the scripts run % is near 50% it might take 2x as long for script time to drop down</nowiki>

[12:48] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I noticed it primarily with my own timing then saw everyone was doing it</nowiki>

[12:48] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Spare time is the extra time at the end of the frame when *everything* has been done.</nowiki>

[12:49] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: including scripts</nowiki>

[12:49] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: If we finish all the scripts then there is some spare time, baring some nice coincidences on using exactly the available time to run all the scripts.</nowiki>

[12:49] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and the benchmark is with attachments that haven't changed in months</nowiki>

[12:49] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Andrew, is the recent texture thrashing issue server-related?</nowiki>

[12:50] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: texture thrashing?</nowiki>

[12:50] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Mona, I'm not familiar with the "recent texture thrashing issue". Could you elaborate on that?</nowiki>

[12:51] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-3472<nowiki> & linked for texture thrashing issue</nowiki>

[12:51] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Kennylex, I give up. How do you make ban lines that no Lindens can pass?</nowiki>

[12:51] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Texture thrashing, meaning reloading again and again, blurry, sharp, bblurry, sharp, etc</nowiki>

[12:51] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: It's this one: </nowiki>http://jira.phoenixviewer.com/browse/FIRE-10994

[12:51] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: And something similar is here: </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MATBUG-355

[12:52] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: There has been a big up tic in the number of people asking how to stop it in Answers and the forum.</nowiki>

[12:52] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Tthe textures constantly reloading and alternating between blurred and rendered states. It mostly occurs in systems where the virtual address space is filling up and/or the VRAM (the dedicated memory of the graphics card) is getting full (for instance, on older graphics cards with 256MB of dedicated RAM or less). This results in textures getting discarded (the # textures discarded due to insufficient memory error message on your screen).</nowiki>

[12:52] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Hrm... I don't know offhand whether that texture thrashing is a serer or viewer issue.</nowiki>

[12:52] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'll have to ask around.</nowiki>

[12:53] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: its a viewer issue</nowiki>

[12:53] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: OK, then I think it'd be best to ask Oz. :/</nowiki>

[12:53] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Mona, what is your draw distance set to?</nowiki>

[12:53] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Right now, 128.</nowiki>

[12:53] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: On the Mac there is a fix that mitigates the problem, it is viewer related and has to do with the Max VRAM setting.</nowiki>

[12:54] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Appears to be viewer & it started when the SSA code changes went in. Those that suffer from it cany repro it on pre SSA viewers. However, thats not all cases. Some content will set it off on pre SSA viewers.</nowiki>

[12:54] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: *cant</nowiki>

[12:54] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: It really depends on what I need to do, Andrew. Sometimes I'm at 256, sometimes at 360.</nowiki>

[12:54] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ok, if it is a viewer-side issue and is related to the shear number of textures in view you can test by dropping your draw distance down to 64 to see if it goes away</nowiki>

[12:54] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: There are a couple of HUD's that set off. Removng those stops it.</nowiki>

[12:54] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Are these specific HUDs, Nal?</nowiki>

[12:55] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: The Todleedoo avatar HUD is the one most complained about.</nowiki>

[12:55] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is almost over</nowiki>

[12:55] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Yes... I don't have those HUD's so I can verify it. So, I haven't published names.</nowiki>

[12:55] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: I can't repro it when wearing that HUD though.</nowiki>

[12:55] Baker Linden<nowiki>: </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-3472?<nowiki> seems like a problem with the auto-blur of the camera, rather than thrashing. At least that's what I took away from the description</nowiki>

[12:56] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: I don't know which HUDs you guys are referring to, but the ones I have are a rather lightweight AO from a vendor that uses a 4-letter name that starts with "K", and the omnipresent hugger HUD.</nowiki>

[12:57] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Baker, I'm sure it is not a DoF problem as those experiencing it have DoF off</nowiki>

[12:57] Baker Linden<nowiki>: ahh, ok. I turn off DoF and I'm pretty fine, apart from some Z-fighting in the way distant area</nowiki>

[12:57] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: These were some game HUD's that apparently made heavy ose 1024x1024 testures.</nowiki>

[12:58] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Oh. No gaming HUDs on me... And I avoid 1MP textures as much as possible.</nowiki>

[12:58] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: If you type "CTRL + SHIFT + 3" you get some debug info about what textures are being loaded</nowiki>

[12:58] Baker Linden<nowiki>: well, stop using 1024x1024 textures for things where a 256x256 map would suffice :P</nowiki>

[12:58] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I wonder what that looks like when you're seeing texture thrashing</nowiki>

[12:58] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Heh, there are cases where even a 64x64 would suffice.</nowiki>

[12:59] Baker Linden<nowiki>: most cases :) or at least a few 64x64 textures</nowiki>

[12:59] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: the debug info shows whether the texture is being loaded form cache or downloaded from the servers</nowiki>

[12:59] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: but baker, i want retina display eyes!</nowiki>

[12:59] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: It's simple, Andrew: the texture renders and becomes crystal clear. Then it gets blurry. Then it reloads and becomes clear again. And again. And again.</nowiki>

[12:59] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Theres a certain mesh house that will cause texture threashing for pretty much everyone.</nowiki>

[12:59] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: It's basically a "10 GOTO 10" kind of thing.</nowiki>

[12:59] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Oh, I has to test to do some 64x64 materials.</nowiki>

[12:59] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: yup, I understand the symptom</nowiki>

[12:59] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Maybe for an anvil.</nowiki>

[13:00] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Maybe we should sing the anvil song, Kenny?</nowiki>

[13:00] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Try with this house </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-2514?focusedCommentId=378589<nowiki>&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel#comment-378589 (if its still rezzed at the shop)</nowiki>

[13:00] Meeter<nowiki>: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group</nowiki>

[13:00] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Hrm... does someone have one of those magic wands?</nowiki>

[13:00] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Its a killer lol</nowiki>

[13:00] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: cow</nowiki>

[13:00] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Ansi, duck</nowiki>

[13:01] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: love that physics time</nowiki>

[13:01] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: Lucia Nightfire is talking about "love"</nowiki>

[13:01] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: this is why pray Anne never uses pf in her cars, lol, as the grid isn't optimized for it</nowiki>

[13:01] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: l$</nowiki>

[13:01] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: $L</nowiki>

[13:02] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: l4 ?</nowiki>

[13:02] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: l$</nowiki>

[13:02] Andrew Linden<nowiki> has fond memories of being totally flabbergasted by the idea of the magic wand when it first showed up.</nowiki>

[13:02] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: its hard in LSL to lower a "$"</nowiki>

[13:02] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: No falling Lindens today :-)</nowiki>

[13:02] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: i get a 4</nowiki>

[13:02] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I can't remember the name of the guy who built the first one...</nowiki>

[13:03] Squirrel Wood<nowiki>: I remember the times back when there was no mono and I got sims to run 4 million script instructions per second without crashing them ^^</nowiki>

[13:03] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but I remember we broke his wand when we started implementing per-parcel temp-on-rez resource limitations</nowiki>

[13:03] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: ansi - let me know when you get that jira filed for the lsl bug.</nowiki>

[13:03] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: because some of his wand's effects used hundreds or thousands of prims</nowiki>

[13:04] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: yes, iam writing still on a debug-script</nowiki>

[13:04] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: cool, thanks.</nowiki>

[13:04] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: I need to head out. o/</nowiki>

[13:04] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: thanks to you @ kelly</nowiki>

[13:04] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: See you Kelly. Thank you!</nowiki>

[13:04] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: yup, thanks for coming</nowiki>

[13:04] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: See ya</nowiki>

[13:05] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: I has to go back and protect :-)</nowiki>

[13:05] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: thanks for having us ;-)</nowiki>

 
[[Simulator_User_Group]]
{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.08.27|Prev 2013.08.27]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.09.10|Next 2013.09.10]]
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Simulator User Group

2013-10-02T15:07:28Z

Andrew Linden:

{{User Group Page
|purpose=
The Server User Group exists to provide an opportunity for discussion about server technology, annoying bugs, and feature ideas.
|date-time=
* Tuesdays 12:00-13:00 (general) http://slurl.com/secondlife/Denby/220/41/33,
Meetings are
|location= '''Denby/225/25/25'''
|agenda= LL developer news then open discussion.

* Feature Request : Please make the Prim-Collision-Sound to PrimProperty, its not good for a less lag expierence if people have to put a script in EACH Prim (and keep it there) for a new collision sound (instead of rezzing a copy of a prim with a already choosen sound). A Script will Reserve 64kb Memory on the Server, even if poeple compile it not to MONO, there is also a need about 16kb to just set a new Collision Sound (which has only 32Bytes). [[User:ANSI Soderstrom|ANSI Soderstrom]]
* BUG ? : KennyLex Luckless want to explain why the new LandImpactCalculationSystem is NOT correct but buggy at Torus's [[User:ANSI Soderstrom|ANSI Soderstrom]]
* Any chance that LL will consider implementing master accounts (SVC-6212), perhaps enhanced with connection to OpenID and other identity providers? Also, what's the status of the exploit described in https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-13228? [[User:Mona Eberhardt|Mona Eberhardt]]
* BUG ! some LSL-Events aren't fired (or put in queue) while a script is in a loop [[User:ANSI Soderstrom|ANSI Soderstrom]]

To continue the discussion in the Server Beta user group (the agenda, https://wiki.secondlife.com/w/index.php?title=Server_Beta_User_Group&oldid=1181685 and the discussion, https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Beta_Server_Office_Hours/Minutes/2013-09-19.) In short, we have a quest to create a physically working teleporter, a vehicle or an attachment that moves along a given path and has to know if the attached avatar or all sat passengers are allowed to enter parcel the path crosses. The problem we can divide in two subproblems:

# We have a path between two positions and we want determine what parcel the path crosses.
## Brute-force: Check every 4m along the path. Could make up to 64 checks when crossing the whole sim and still not accurate.
## Perhaps better to extend llCastRay to detect parcel bondaries (suggested by Maestro Linden.) The question is, how easy is it to do so?
# For every crossed parcel, we need to know if there is danger to enter for the vehicle itself (prim limit) the vehicle scripts (allowed to run) or for the attached or sat avatars. I can not see any function to do this check for avatars in the Wiki.
# There may be also another problem specially for large vehicles, when one of passenger is not allowed to cross the parcel but others are, what happens to the vehicle? Eventually we must check for every passenger:
## will the vehicle stop when the vehicle itself touches the parcel boundary?
## will it stop when the forbidden avatar touches the parcel boundary but all other passengers pass the parcel?
## or will the unallowed avatar be striped from the vehicle that continues to move?
# In the beta group discussion was suggested to check parcel danger when the avatar in question is connected to the simulator. I'd extend it to at least 10m into other regions, so the vehicles could determine if its ok to bring passengers over to the next region.

[[User:Jenna Felton|Jenna Felton]] 11:41, 24 September 2013 (PDT)

== News ==

|team=
* [[User:Andrew Linden|Andrew Linden]]
* [[User:Simon Linden|Simon Linden]]
* [[User:Kelly Linden|Kelly Linden]]
* [[User:Baker Linden|Baker Linden]]
}}

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[[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2012]]

[[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2011]]

Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.08.27

2013-08-28T23:19:28Z

Andrew Linden: Created page with "Simulator_User_Group {| | Prev 2013.08.20 | Next 2013.09.03 |} == List of Spe…"

[[Simulator_User_Group]]
{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.08.20|Prev 2013.08.20]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.09.03|Next 2013.09.03]]
|}

== List of Speakers ==
{|
|Adamburp Adamczyk
|Andrew Linden
|Baker Linden
|-
|Hexapoda
|Jonathan Yap
|Kallista Destiny
|-
|Kelly Linden
|Kennylex Luckless
|lightenedshadow
|-
|Lucia Nightfire
|MartinRJ Fayray
|Mona Eberhardt
|-
|Motor Loon
|Petr Topaz
|Qie Niangao
|-
|Rex Cronon
|RodneyCaston
|Simon Linden
|-
|TankMaster Finesmith
|Tray Guisse
|Yuzuru Jewell
|-
|}

== Transcript ==
[12:02] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: And hell-oooooo Andrew!</nowiki>

[12:02] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Hello, Andrew.</nowiki>

[12:02] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Hi everyone.</nowiki>

[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: We had a rollout this morning to the main release channel, which went smoothly as far as I know</nowiki>

[12:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: There was some feedback about the grid status blog being out of date, and that's been passed around but I'm not sure what may or may not change with it</nowiki>

[12:03] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: if u r late, can't stay and for those that can't come. u can follow chat live here: </nowiki>http://rcds.nfshost.com/ques_view_chatLog.php?queOwner=llsl:Rex<nowiki>+Cronon&queName=chatLog&pg=1</nowiki>

[12:03] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hi andrew</nowiki>

[12:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Tomorrow the RC channels will all get the same update, which is another maintenance release with a few bug fixes</nowiki>

[12:04] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Thanks Rex</nowiki>

[12:04] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The forum post is here: </nowiki>http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2013-08-26/td-p/2163873

[12:04] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: access stuffs</nowiki>

[12:04] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: :)</nowiki>

[12:04] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Ave Andrew</nowiki>

[12:05] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I can't get into details on the access change but it's not a huge one, so don't get too excited about it</nowiki>

[12:05] Simon Linden<nowiki>: We hope to have a project viewer out in a few weeks or so that will have the new code and we can discuss it then</nowiki>

[12:05] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I won't be excited until I see resource restriction options for land owners at teh parcel level</nowiki>

[12:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yep, that would be nice</nowiki>

[12:06] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: What does that mean exactly? Estate owners can set per-owner limits on parcel owners?</nowiki>

[12:06] Tray Guisse<nowiki>: is there a request out for that?</nowiki>

[12:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That's it for my news ... Andrew, Baker or Kelly, do you guys have anything to report?</nowiki>

[12:06] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: I'll be excited when kelly linden makes us all bacon butties</nowiki>

[12:06] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: That, or something eXperience Permissions related (like: can't enter without accepting perms)</nowiki>

[12:06] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: or does it mean per-resource-type restrictions? (physics, rendering, scripts)</nowiki>

[12:07] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Andrew its a few things, I'm actually compiling a list for presentation in a feature request jira</nowiki>

[12:07] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ok</nowiki>

[12:07] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: most of it uses existing checks the server makes with said resources, but soem of them are unique</nowiki>

[12:08] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I have a couple minor topics for the agenda, but no news.</nowiki>

[12:08] Simon Linden<nowiki>: It may be best to also think of it as information access, and not the actual parcel rules. It's sometimes better if we made data available to LSL, and then you can program your own response to someone with too many attachments or scripts or such</nowiki>

[12:08] Baker Linden<nowiki>: I've still been hooking up the viewer to the server, and can now add people to the ban list. I'm currently working on getting the ban list, which will allow me to get deleting from the ban list working. After that, it's code cleanup, reviews, and adding server-side verification checks!</nowiki>

[12:09] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Baker banned me from some groups on the beta grid. I can attest that there is progress there.</nowiki>

[12:09] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yes, Simon, many things are abel to be handled that way, many aren't though, which is what I'm working on presenting later</nowiki>

[12:09] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: u can ban even lindens from groups?</nowiki>

[12:09] Baker Linden<nowiki>: that will be a verification step, and no, you won't be able to MWA HA HA</nowiki>

[12:10] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Sorry Rex</nowiki>

[12:10] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: afaik, you can't manually even ban or eject a Linden through the viewer, so doing it through a group is weird</nowiki>

[12:10] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Can a linder plese note this: [12:09:14] HACKED BY THE GOVERNOR (carter.giacobini): (FS 4.2.2) </nowiki>http://secondlifedox.blogspot.co.uk/<nowiki> FREE SL + ACCOUNTS FOR ALL NEW UPDATES EVERYDAY FUCK THE SYSTEM</nowiki>

[12:10] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: haha</nowiki>

[12:10] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Yes, I think that will work. However, a Linden should probably be able to admin the banlist. Or maybe not.</nowiki>

[12:10] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: you can add a linden to a parcel banlist</nowiki>

[12:11] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: but in God Mode has no efect</nowiki>

[12:11] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Lot of good that does...</nowiki>

[12:11] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: not sure about estate banning mind you</nowiki>

[12:11] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Will it be posible to set a ban time, like banned for a week or so?</nowiki>

[12:12] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Not yet, but I have the code stubbed in there</nowiki>

[12:12] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Is there room in the database schema for a ban expiry?</nowiki>

[12:12] Baker Linden<nowiki>: I'm going to create the table with that feature in mind, but it may not be implemented until after it's been released</nowiki>

[12:12] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ah good</nowiki>

[12:13] Baker Linden<nowiki>: same with ban reason -- whether or not I want to allow a sentence or two for a ban entry so the banner can write something about why the resident is banned</nowiki>

[12:13] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: excelent, always put extra spaces in a BD, just in case...</nowiki>

[12:14] Baker Linden<nowiki>: it probably won't be implemented in the first release, but I want to add that as well</nowiki>

[12:14] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: To be honest, Baker, I've always wondered why banning and ejecting people from groups hasn't been working in the same manner as banning and kicking people from IRC channels.</nowiki>

[12:15] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: if u do that for every group memeber its going to be a pain to set the text</nowiki>

[12:15] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Baker, perhaps a checklist of reasons? Should not be all that many reasons.</nowiki>

[12:15] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: especally if you add other.</nowiki>

[12:16] Baker Linden<nowiki>: What do you mean, Mona?</nowiki>

[12:16] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: is it really necessary? a reason feidld?</nowiki>

[12:16] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yeah, but there are local reasons for bans too</nowiki>

[12:16] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Well, in IRC channels, banning someone automatically shuts them up.</nowiki>

[12:16] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: eg wehn i ban somebody from m land, i use teh "other info" bit in theor profile</nowiki>

[12:16] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: which may not exist on a TOS based list</nowiki>

[12:16] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: And you can kick them later.</nowiki>

[12:16] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I could see how a "reason" field would help collaborative group management</nowiki>

[12:16] RodneyCaston<nowiki>: Yo Can Rat join the party?</nowiki>

[12:17] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: it could help one manager "remember" why another manager banned someone else</nowiki>

[12:17] Baker Linden<nowiki>: No, a reason field isn't necessary -- I thought it might be nice, or at least if it had some pre-written selections so you'd remember in 3 months why that resident was banned</nowiki>

[12:17] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: And you can also set for how long they'll be banned, if I remember well.</nowiki>

[12:17] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: 63 bytes, heh</nowiki>

[12:17] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Baker, on the IRC, we can optionally declare a reason for kicking and/or banning someone.</nowiki>

[12:17] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: not a party. a meeting. usually eerybody is welcome rodney</nowiki>

[12:17] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: don't use his display name in teh reason, heh</nowiki>

[12:18] RodneyCaston<nowiki>: RATCLONER IN HOUSE :)</nowiki>

[12:18] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: 64 chars should be plenty</nowiki>

[12:18] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki> has kicked mona for being to cool</nowiki>

[12:18] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Yeah, that's what I mean. It won't be required, but if you wanted to note to "Never unban this resident!", you'd be able to</nowiki>

[12:18] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: "64 characters should be enough for everybody"</nowiki>

[12:18] Baker Linden<nowiki>: haha</nowiki>

[12:18] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Great minds think alike</nowiki>

[12:19] Motor Loon<nowiki>: I'd be a nice feature baker.... but espicially if it was also available on parcel bans and estate bans</nowiki>

[12:19] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Mona, temporal bans will be after the first version is released.</nowiki>

[12:19] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki> nods</nowiki>

[12:19] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Motor, yes it would. :)</nowiki>

[12:19] RodneyCaston<nowiki>: I wiah they unbanned Ratcloner Stoop this rat problem has over too many altz :)</nowiki>

[12:20] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: at an opt in manner, click on a i for reason</nowiki>

[12:20] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: temporal bans? you can ban someone in the future and have ti take affect now?</nowiki>

[12:20] Baker Linden<nowiki>: well, time-based bans, where you can ban someone for two weeks</nowiki>

[12:20] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Banned for 3 days or 3 weeks etc</nowiki>

[12:20] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: A couple questions for you guys...</nowiki>

[12:21] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Uh Oh</nowiki>

[12:21] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: ah, temporary bans :P</nowiki>

[12:21] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: temp ban or what I call tban, lol</nowiki>

[12:21] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: who knew there'd be a quiz?</nowiki>

[12:21] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: (1) When a parcel transitions to another owner the "allow public to build on this land" is set to True by default, is that correct</nowiki>

[12:21] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ?</nowiki>

[12:21] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yeah, except for abandon</nowiki>

[12:21] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: yeas</nowiki>

[12:22] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: think so</nowiki>

[12:22] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: I beleive that is the case</nowiki>

[12:22] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Can we get "Ban *.Linden" and "Ban Torley*.*"?</nowiki>

[12:22] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: So we were thinking we would change it to be False by default. I was wondering if anyone here would complain.</nowiki>

[12:22] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: not me</nowiki>

[12:22] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: andrew, it would be a huge plus</nowiki>

[12:22] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Ok cool.</nowiki>

[12:22] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: given the amount of noobie landowners</nowiki>

[12:22] Motor Loon<nowiki>: that should be fine yeah</nowiki>

[12:22] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: who don;t understand permissions at first</nowiki>

[12:22] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: I see the advantage of setting everything off by default</nowiki>

[12:22] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: It would prevent some modes of Griefing.</nowiki>

[12:22] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Sure Kenny, just don't expect it to work :P</nowiki>

[12:22] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: I would complain, probably</nowiki>

[12:23] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: I want SL to be more noob-friendly</nowiki>

[12:23] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: :D</nowiki>

[12:23] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: which would require them alot of free places to rez stuff</nowiki>

[12:23] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: (2) This has probably been asked for (I can't remember) but: Estate owners should probably be able to admin parcel properties without having to take ownership of them (ban lists, object options, etc).</nowiki>

[12:23] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Would you all agree with that?</nowiki>

[12:23] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: *for them there to be alot of free parcels where they could rezz stuff</nowiki>

[12:23] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: martin, that's why there are sandboxes, adn rezz zones all over the mainlabnd</nowiki>

[12:23] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: yes but for noobs they are often hard to find</nowiki>

[12:24] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: I've met alot of noobs who don't ever heard of the term 'sandbox'</nowiki>

[12:24] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: *haven't ever</nowiki>

[12:24] Motor Loon<nowiki>: Oh andrew, that'd be an awesome thing for us with larger estates</nowiki>

[12:24] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and thats what public sandboxes are for</nowiki>

[12:24] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: region should override parcel you mean?</nowiki>

[12:24] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Speaking of rez zones, will anything be done about AnnMarie OToole's spammy "vehicles"?</nowiki>

[12:24] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: I agree with 2, but not with 1</nowiki>

[12:24] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: not random parcel owners whereever they go</nowiki>

[12:24] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: No, I mean Estate Managers should be able to change the per-parcel parameters.</nowiki>

[12:24] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: andrew some things might be better on by default. just make it so it can be changed easily from on to off</nowiki>

[12:24] RodneyCaston<nowiki>: Some Lindens seem to only know how to banned but seem not to undo mistake or send one to an location like the corn field</nowiki>

[12:24] RodneyCaston<nowiki>: ect</nowiki>

[12:24] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Honestly, Martin, if they don't know about Sandboxes, *that's* the problem, not that they can't build anywhere they see spare prims.</nowiki>

[12:24] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: The EM would have to be within the parcel to do that, right?</nowiki>

[12:25] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: thats iffy Andrew, some would say EO only, some would say, EO&EM</nowiki>

[12:25] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: They litter everything and, despite numerous ARs, she keeps gaming the system to keep spamming mainland with her trash.</nowiki>

[12:25] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: For (1) land owners could always choose to allow everyone to build. But the default state would be False.</nowiki>

[12:25] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: alot of friends of mine don't have money to spend to build in SL but still build alot of content which they sell on marketplace, and they usually do it on some almost-abandoned parcels</nowiki>

[12:25] Motor Loon<nowiki>: an estatemanager should have access to anything in the About land, regardless who's the owner of the parcel</nowiki>

[12:25] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: please don't change that, Andrew</nowiki>

[12:25] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ok so no arguments about (2)</nowiki>

[12:25] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: allow terraform, create and object entry should be off by default after a transfer</nowiki>

[12:26] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: no arguments about (2)</nowiki>

[12:26] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Martin, make them stop doing that, please, and go to sandboxes or other parcels set to auto-return, so they don't keep scattering crap all over the Mainland.</nowiki>

[12:26] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: And I'm talking about problems like the one blogged here: </nowiki>http://poultryreport.blogspot.it/2013/08/rolling-eyesores.html

[12:26] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: (2) Yes good Idea</nowiki>

[12:26] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: they always clean up after themself</nowiki>

[12:26] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: mona, 1 thing in herdefence?</nowiki>

[12:26] Motor Loon<nowiki>: please dont make obj. entry false by default... that'd be a nightmare</nowiki>

[12:26] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: absolutely. it would be a nightmare</nowiki>

[12:26] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: I exploe the mainaldn a LOT (just ask the ldpw) and she always picks up her stuff if yu tell her about it</nowiki>

[12:26] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: but not everybody does -- *especially* not the ones who don't know about sandboxes at all.</nowiki>

[12:27] RodneyCaston<nowiki>: Yeah not to brag uh which Linden is running the code for The Corn Field Region these days?</nowiki>

[12:27] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Not object entry, but allowing people to build new objects on the parcel.</nowiki>

[12:27] RodneyCaston<nowiki>: or Beta side?</nowiki>

[12:27] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: free bus transit system. now with self-replicating bus stops:)</nowiki>

[12:27] Motor Loon<nowiki>: build is fine with me</nowiki>

[12:27] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: right, unfortunately can't set auto-return ON by default, either.</nowiki>

[12:27] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: auto return by default to .01 sec :P</nowiki>

[12:28] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Folk that has disabled auto return should get a notice about that every month, if they do not response on that the autoreturn should be say to 5 to 10 min.</nowiki>

[12:28] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Why not Qie? A default auto-return could be set on parcel transition.</nowiki>

[12:28] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: if some residents want to have more restrictive rules on their land, they still can turn object entry or creation off manually.</nowiki>

[12:28] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Autoreturn with a time of 5 sec whould be nice</nowiki>

[12:28] Motor Loon<nowiki>: autoreturn would be very bad and cause lots of problems</nowiki>

[12:28] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: peeps in SL are so paranoid, often. you should not support that.</nowiki>

[12:29] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Andrew, I wish, but lots of stuff that stayed on the land at sale would go poof... and people need time to re-set that stuff's group settings, at least.</nowiki>

[12:29] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: I think that's what keeps making things worse.</nowiki>

[12:29] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: need auto return on attachments...</nowiki>

[12:29] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: lols</nowiki>

[12:29] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Yes, the reason we were thinking about making the change, MartinRJ, was that there seem to be a lot of open parcels which makes it really easy for griefers to build+hide malicious objects in regions.</nowiki>

[12:29] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: You mean autoeject?</nowiki>

[12:29] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: that to</nowiki>

[12:30] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Many parcel owners may be clueless about the malicious objects on their land, and maybe clueless that they can change that option. That's the theory, anyway.</nowiki>

[12:30] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is half over</nowiki>

[12:30] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: clearly some people have not been majorly griefed...</nowiki>

[12:30] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: do a poll andrew:)</nowiki>

[12:30] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: If you want to change the behaviour, then at least the option should keep it's previous state.</nowiki>

[12:30] lightenedshadow<nowiki>: Bloody hells bells that was quick half over already :c</nowiki>

[12:30] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: It *would* be nice to somehow *encourage* more use of auto-return. (Like... TIER-BONUS ! :p)</nowiki>

[12:30] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: so if it was open for building before, you should not set it to false.</nowiki>

[12:31] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: would that be an option, Andrew?</nowiki>

[12:31] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Hrm... that is a possibility MartinRJ.</nowiki>

[12:31] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: lol @ Qie</nowiki>

[12:31] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: We has parcel beside a lifetime user that seldom is online and has no auto return, after some month t can have old grief there that lags the whole area.</nowiki>

[12:31] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: thats a common problem, heh</nowiki>

[12:32] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: well the requested change wouldn't help with your special situation, Kennylex</nowiki>

[12:32] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Kennylex, that is on a mainland region?</nowiki>

[12:32] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: if somebody decides to use sel-replicators autoretun wouldn't be that usefull</nowiki>

[12:32] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: It is in Main lan.</nowiki>

[12:32] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Maniland, Minna</nowiki>

[12:32] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ok, another thing...</nowiki>

[12:33] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: self-replicators*</nowiki>

[12:33] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: It turns out you can bypass autoreturn by making a recursive-rezzing object.</nowiki>

[12:33] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Rex, that's true. Any of the parcel settings can be got-round, but they each help, some.</nowiki>

[12:33] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: one of the resource restriction options I was going to include my list addresses an issue with rezzing by owner's not present on the parcel "Allow object rezzing from owners not on this parcel." Everyone Y/n Group Y/N</nowiki>

[12:33] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and that covers 5 different grief vectors</nowiki>

[12:33] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: It rezzes a copy of itself and give a copy to the rezzed object. The original object gets autoreturned and the new one can live for another autoreturn period.</nowiki>

[12:33] Motor Loon<nowiki>: recursive-rezzing?</nowiki>

[12:33] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Yes. AnnMarie Otoole is using this extensively to spam mainland with her zombie vehicles.</nowiki>

[12:34] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Right. Old trick.</nowiki>

[12:34] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and theres 5 or more ways to make stuff defeat autoreturn too...</nowiki>

[12:34] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: So, I'm planning on nerfing that misfeature.</nowiki>

[12:34] RodneyCaston<nowiki>: They been issue with these JLU & Reddit groups both ani-griefer & Griefer/trolls which seem to be issue fileing too many Ageplay reports in G rated seem which states Teen has to actional be on sex poseball to be ageplaying</nowiki>

[12:34] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: And I'm wondering how much "legit" content will break</nowiki>

[12:34] Motor Loon<nowiki>: ah plug that hole then has it any useful "legal" uses?</nowiki>

[12:34] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: where "legit" means: content that is cool and most people like</nowiki>

[12:34] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: @Lucy great idea!</nowiki>

[12:35] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Seems a win to nerf it, but I'm sure somebody is gonna whine</nowiki>

[12:35] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: yeah that trick has been around for many years</nowiki>

[12:35] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: you'll get a biased answer from content creators that use that means Andrew, esp in the combat HUD dept</nowiki>

[12:35] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Andrew, the solution is simple: permaban the ones that systematically abuse the system and have caused people to AR them a lot of time.</nowiki>

[12:35] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: Lucy's idea would really help with that</nowiki>

[12:35] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Instead of removing functionality, we can remove the ones that abuse it.</nowiki>

[12:35] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: andrew. don't nerf it.</nowiki>

[12:35] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: After all, these people are bad for business.</nowiki>

[12:35] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: thats a unique check though as there isn't a check to check for presence of owner to begin with, so it'll be something new</nowiki>

[12:36] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: its one of the few checks that aren't already being done by the server</nowiki>

[12:36] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I can list what that setting will deter too</nowiki>

[12:36] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Legit: cool and some (perhaps as few as 1% of active non bot residents), not most, people like</nowiki>

[12:36] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Currently, an agent is capable of rezzing from inventory on a parcel without being on the parcel or even in the region.</nowiki>

<nowiki>Objects are capable of scripted rezzing and self-replication without the owner being present on the parcel or in the region.</nowiki>

<nowiki>Rezzed/worn megaprims larger than a region can rez objects into a region from several regions away.</nowiki>

<nowiki>Bots are capable of connecting to a region from anywhere on the grid, becoming a child agent of the region and rezzing inventory objects on any public rez parcels.</nowiki>

<nowiki>Illegal tpv's with a "sim fill" feature can send hundreds of rez requests a second over the entire region without the user explicitly looking for land to rez on.</nowiki>

[12:36] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: banning accounts doesnt really help cus the user can just come back on a different account</nowiki>

[12:36] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: And kicking them out doesn't require code to be written... Just a C&D that has a PS like "... And don't let the door hit ya on the butt on your way out."</nowiki>

[12:37] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Tank, then perhaps the time has come for master accounts to be implemented.</nowiki>

[12:37] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Lucy, honestly, I'd never use that setting on any of my land... and can't imagine it being that popular. I mean, who doesn't have a rezzer they want others to be able to operate in their absence?</nowiki>

[12:37] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Hrm... so what if the recursive scripted rez was allowed if the avatar were present. Are most of the "legit" uses for stuff that orbits the avatar? Or is there a lot of "legit" autonomous content in the world?</nowiki>

[12:37] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: I agree with Mona</nowiki>

[12:37] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: its mainly for public rez land</nowiki>

[12:37] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: maybe limitting self-replication at least a little. but no nerfin</nowiki>

[12:38] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: there surely is legit content, but it looks like the best solution to me</nowiki>

[12:38] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: how about nerf it if autoreturn applies to you--this would not affect objects owned by the parcel owner (or group, if that is set up)</nowiki>

[12:38] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: people will adapt!</nowiki>

[12:38] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I can't think of a ethically legit self-replication app</nowiki>

[12:38] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: :P</nowiki>

[12:39] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: there r things that replicate at intervals of less than 1 seconds. that is usually bad</nowiki>

[12:39] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Jonathan, yes that would be how it would work: this is an autoreturn exploit that would be closed.</nowiki>

[12:39] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: i can.. tribbles!</nowiki>

[12:39] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki> snickers</nowiki>

[12:39] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: ethically meaning designed to defeat autoreturn</nowiki>

[12:39] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: would it be possible to add a checkbox so that the parcel owner / manager can choose whether or not to allow self-replication?</nowiki>

[12:40] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: : D</nowiki>

[12:40] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Ah, with Jonathan's condition, it does seem pretty safe. Do combat folks need to go beyond that condition, too?</nowiki>

[12:40] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: although I don't think it would be used much, at all...</nowiki>

[12:40] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: nevermind</nowiki>

[12:40] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: I kind-of agree with Lucy</nowiki>

[12:41] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: lucy. i use it in a platform that doesn't die as long i am in the sim. i use it in sims that have autoreturn, otherwise i can't work somewhere high in the sky</nowiki>

[12:41] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: self-replication is jsut one problem, recurrsive rezzing is more common</nowiki>

[12:41] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: pets use recursive rezzing</nowiki>

[12:41] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: It turns out there is a similar exploit available for temp-on-rez objects: recursive rez appears to work for a long time, but maybe not indefinitely.</nowiki>

[12:41] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and yes, self-replicating platforms are the most common "legit" self-rep apps I know</nowiki>

[12:41] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: but I've onyl seen two models</nowiki>

[12:41] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: there was a jira about the kittycats, when the anti-grey-goo mechanism was too restrictive last year</nowiki>

[12:42] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: well, self replication is ok, as long as it doesn't happen too fast, and as long as it doesn't get around autoreturn</nowiki>

[12:42] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: metering it to not bypass autoreturn would be a problem, esp with simple 5 minute autoreturn</nowiki>

[12:42] Motor Loon<nowiki>: yeah</nowiki>

[12:42] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: andrew. it does need to get autoreturn. public sandboxes have become to restrictive due to griefing:(</nowiki>

[12:43] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Rex, you say you use a recursive rezzing box to avoid autoreturn when building sky boxen?</nowiki>

[12:43] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: yes</nowiki>

[12:43] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: the primary restriction you see atm in LL's sandboxe is no scripting at teh estate level</nowiki>

[12:43] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: it dies if i don't return to sim fast enough</nowiki>

[12:44] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: All the more reason to implement master accounts: </nowiki>http://monaeberhardt.wordpress.com/2013/07/09/the-master-account-proposal-revisited/

[12:44] Motor Loon<nowiki>: I'd say go for making those changes - if it breaks anything legit, we'll hear about it and rethink it then...</nowiki>

[12:44] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: by its own behavior -- it only replicates if it detects your presence?</nowiki>

[12:44] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: sometimes building on the group it can get too crowded and people go to different heights to work</nowiki>

[12:45] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: it stops replicating if i am not present</nowiki>

[12:45] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: to tell the truth, I already implemented the nerf for the autoreturn exploit, but at Simon's suggestion I keyed it with a config option to disable it</nowiki>

[12:45] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: the self-rep platofrm apps I know of do it w/o presence of owner</nowiki>

[12:46] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ok well the implementation in its current state would kill your jacob's ladder Rex</nowiki>

[12:46] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: draw taht line</nowiki>

[12:46] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: I think it should really don't apply when the owner of the object is in the region</nowiki>

[12:46] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: like when you sit on a vehicle</nowiki>

[12:46] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: SL is 10 years old, we need some definitive and ground breaking changes</nowiki>

[12:46] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: just the same way</nowiki>

[12:46] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I will consider that, and bounce the idea off some of my colleagues.</nowiki>

[12:47] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: we need a new viewer and a new LSL, but not more restrictions</nowiki>

[12:47] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: look above. this is a self-replicating platform</nowiki>

[12:47] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and I can agree to a degree taht it shouldn't be hindered if the owner is in the region or on the parcel</nowiki>

[12:47] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki> nods</nowiki>

[12:47] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i agree. as long i am in the sim it whould work</nowiki>

[12:47] RodneyCaston<nowiki>: AR system need to crossout Ageplayed because i seThis is bad post but who cares </nowiki>http://kinggoon.net/

[12:48] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: so it would open up a new use for bot accounts... stay in the region to keep the autoreturn exploiters going</nowiki>

[12:48] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: but in all fairness, self-replication was primarily designed to defeat autoreturn, even if its the best of intentions, lol</nowiki>

[12:48] Motor Loon<nowiki>: rex could also just sit on his platform</nowiki>

[12:48] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: I think self replication existing prior to auto return, though I'm not really sure.</nowiki>

[12:48] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: existed*</nowiki>

[12:48] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: then it would be gone when he crashes and he would fall 4000m after login</nowiki>

[12:48] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yes, Andrew I thought taht would occur myself if there was a change in that area, esp when Anne's bus stops, lol</nowiki>

[12:49] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: hrm... maybe parcels should have have two autoreturn periods: one for objects whose owners in in the region, and one for those lacking owners</nowiki>

[12:49] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: gread idea, Andrew</nowiki>

[12:49] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: YES lol</nowiki>

[12:49] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: that was another</nowiki>

[12:49] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i can't just sit on it. sometimes i need to do things that require me to walk</nowiki>

[12:49] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I'm actually doign that now</nowiki>

[12:49] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: in one sandbox</nowiki>

[12:49] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: with a scripted object return setup</nowiki>

[12:49] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: that sounds better andrew</nowiki>

[12:50] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: the owner's return time is "built" in proportion to their in-sim time</nowiki>

[12:50] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and ticks down when they leave</nowiki>

[12:50] Motor Loon<nowiki>: well, I'll rent you some land where you dont have to worry about all that Rex</nowiki>

[12:50] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and builds again when they return</nowiki>

[12:50] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: complicated Lucia... would require per-avatar data to be stored per parcel</nowiki>

[12:50] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yes, but its very handy</nowiki>

[12:51] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: I see the potental for lag there</nowiki>

[12:51] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I've seen a definitive improvement, esp with those that come in to rez crap then leave...lol</nowiki>

[12:51] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i appreciate that motor but sometimes i do go to public sangboxes and there might be others ave on it besides me</nowiki>

[12:51] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: only problem is, it takes a LO/GO/EO/EM to use the return funtion, but its nice</nowiki>

[12:52] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Rex, all those "others" should rent from Motor, too!</nowiki>

[12:52] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ok, well that's all the items I had for the agenda</nowiki>

[12:52] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: the table is open</nowiki>

[12:52] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: i got one</nowiki>

[12:53] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: currently when your on a region with a landong point, you cannot TP within the region, like dbl click to TP</nowiki>

[12:53] Motor Loon<nowiki>: 2-autoreturn timers would be pretty awesome Andrew... I'd love for an instant autoreturn when someone leave and for example a 1 hours one if they're in sim</nowiki>

[12:53] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: I like Lucy's suggestion. Maybe there could be a check when the regular auto-return kicks in, and wait for n minutes until the avatar is gone</nowiki>

[12:53] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: would it be possible to add an option to allow or dissallow TPing withing a reion/parcle that has a landing point?</nowiki>

[12:53] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: this self-replication is also used on guardians at combat sims. they protect u from attacks:)</nowiki>

[12:53] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: the agent's in-sim data exists if they own prims</nowiki>

[12:54] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: * if they have rezzed prims</nowiki>

[12:54] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: that way people who enter the region still go to a fixed point, but then can TP around afterwords</nowiki>

[12:54] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: oh god yeah, TankMaster</nowiki>

[12:54] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: but yet had it disabled for combat sims that dont want that feature</nowiki>

[12:54] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki> offers baker a piece of birthday cake "happy birthday baker"</nowiki>

[12:54] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Tankmaster, in theory it could be added... not too complicated on the server-side I think.</nowiki>

[12:55] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is almost over</nowiki>

[12:55] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: should I file a jira on it?</nowiki>

[12:55] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: However, adding it to the UI and message system might be harder...</nowiki>

[12:55] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: esp. for someone like me who uses SL-viewer's double-click teleport: it's really stupid that you go to the landing point everytime you accidentally double-click</nowiki>

[12:55] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'd have to check the format of the message that gets sent when you set a parcel's properties.</nowiki>

[12:55] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: I'd love to have that feature</nowiki>

[12:55] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That would be a per-region setting?</nowiki>

[12:55] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yeah, I'd like that to change too, lol</nowiki>

[12:56] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Per-parcel, I think.</nowiki>

[12:56] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: per parcel</nowiki>

[12:56] Simon Linden<nowiki>: with no region / estate over-ride?</nowiki>

[12:56] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: althogh you can set a landing point outside a parcel if you know how, lol</nowiki>

[12:56] Baker Linden<nowiki>: thanks adam!</nowiki>

[12:57] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: anyways: double-click-teleport shouldn't bring you to the landing-point either way.</nowiki>

[12:57] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I'm not arguing for or against it, just trying to get a clear understanding of what would be useful</nowiki>

[12:57] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I don't remember how the "telehub" (per-region landing points) feature interacts with per-parcel landing spots.</nowiki>

[12:57] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: However, the feature being proposed only overrides the per-parcel landing spots.</nowiki>

[12:57] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: andrew, the landowner set s it</nowiki>

[12:57] Simon Linden<nowiki> nods</nowiki>

[12:57] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: teh landing spot, and direct tp</nowiki>

[12:58] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: happy to show you if you wis</nowiki>

[12:58] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: right, but there is another way to specify a TP landing spot using a "telehub" -- it is a much older feature than per-parcel landing spots</nowiki>

[13:03] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: region crash</nowiki>

[13:03] Baker Linden<nowiki>: oh, so everyone had that happen to them</nowiki>

[13:03] Hexapoda<nowiki>: Crasher</nowiki>

[13:03] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: yes</nowiki>

[13:03] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: yeah baker</nowiki>

[13:03] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Who?</nowiki>

[13:03] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Was it a technical glitch or a griefer attack?</nowiki>

[13:03] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: I'm not the only one who just got booted?</nowiki>

[13:04] Hexapoda<nowiki>: She may pop up in water here when she do restart.</nowiki>

[13:04] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: No Martin.</nowiki>

[13:04] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: yup, the region definitely crashed</nowiki>

[13:05] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Indeed. But was it a technical glitch?</nowiki>

[13:05] Hexapoda<nowiki>: It was a grief</nowiki>

[13:05] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: more like an exploit, heh</nowiki>

[13:05] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Can the abuser be identified?</nowiki>

[13:05] Hexapoda<nowiki>: a 0-day old user sat in water and made nois spam.</nowiki>

[13:05] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yeah, look at the logs</nowiki>

[13:05] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: yes, with some effort</nowiki>

[13:06] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: reminds me</nowiki>

[13:06] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: was there any work in the script handling area lately?</nowiki>

[13:06] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: because</nowiki>

[13:06] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Andrew, for such people, I highly recommend that the Lab identifies them and contacts their ISP.</nowiki>

[13:07] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: interesting. my live chat survived and its still working:)</nowiki>

[13:07] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: since two releases ago, agents script timing in regions with 0 spare time seem to go down at a much slower rate than before</nowiki>

[13:07] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: so if u just returned u can see what was discussed since crash:)</nowiki>

[13:07] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: it survived a sim state save</nowiki>

[13:08] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: what was the url again, Rex please?</nowiki>

[13:08] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Rex, do you have the meeting logs from two weeks ago?</nowiki>

[13:08] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: </nowiki>http://rcds.nfshost.com/ques_view_chatLog.php?queOwner=llsl:Rex<nowiki>+Cronon&queName=chatLog&pg=-1</nowiki>

[13:08] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: griefed?</nowiki>

[13:08] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Yup.</nowiki>

[13:08] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ok thanks, I think we lost those transcripts</nowiki>

[13:08] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: no adrew. sorry. its only for a day. sometimes longer:(</nowiki>

[13:08] Kallista Destiny<nowiki> shakes her head, really stupid to Grief a meeting with lindens</nowiki>

[13:09] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: oh ok</nowiki>

[13:09] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: As said, the ISPs of griefers really should be contacted...</nowiki>

[13:09] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Well, grifers han never been material for mansa</nowiki>

[13:09] Petr Topaz<nowiki>: well it happened last night to</nowiki>

[13:09] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: MENSA</nowiki>

[13:09] Simon Linden<nowiki>: it was from a throw-away account, created today</nowiki>

[13:09] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: griefers spoof their ISP half the time</nowiki>

[13:09] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: IP</nowiki>

[13:09] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: bah</nowiki>

[13:09] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tor?</nowiki>

[13:10] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and are probably using proxies and VPN's</nowiki>

[13:10] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Even a spoofed IP can be resolved...</nowiki>

[13:10] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: whatever is hip these days, heh</nowiki>

[13:10] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Can Group ban 0 day avatars?</nowiki>

[13:10] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I would hope</nowiki>

[13:10] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Best is to IP block all free Proxies.</nowiki>

[13:10] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Well, I've got to go guys. Thanks for coming.</nowiki>

[13:10] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Not a bad idea at all.</nowiki>

[13:10] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Thanks Andrew</nowiki>

[13:10] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Thanks Andrew.</nowiki>

[13:10] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: thanks</nowiki>

[13:11] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc andrew</nowiki>

[13:11] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Tht is a moving target...</nowiki>

[13:11] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Thank you, Andrew.</nowiki>

 
[[Simulator_User_Group]]
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| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.09.03|Next 2013.09.03]]
|}

Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.08.20

2013-08-28T23:12:02Z

Andrew Linden: Created page with "Simulator_User_Group {| | Prev 2013.08.13 | Next 2013.08.27 |} == List of Spe…"

[[Simulator_User_Group]]
{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.08.13|Prev 2013.08.13]]
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|}

== List of Speakers ==
{|
|Adamburp Adamczyk
|Andrew Linden
|ANSI Soderstrom
|-
|Baker Linden
|darkenedshadow
|Duckie Dickins
|-
|Hexapoda
|Kallista Destiny
|Kelly Linden
|-
|Kitto Flora
|Lucia Nightfire
|MartinRJ Fayray
|-
|Minuet Voir
|Mona Eberhardt
|Nalates Urriah
|-
|Petr Topaz
|Qie Niangao
|Rex Cronon
|-
|Simon Linden
|Whirly Fizzle
|Yuzuru Jewell
|}

== Transcript ==
[12:00] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: hi other employees</nowiki>

[12:00] Kallista Destiny<nowiki> puts her antibling sun glasses on</nowiki>

[12:00] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I can get started with the server news ... the main event being that the Server-Side Appearance code was rolled onto the main release channel this morning</nowiki>

[12:00] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hello andrew</nowiki>

[12:01] Simon Linden<nowiki>: So that's now on about 80% of regions</nowiki>

[12:01] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hello kelly</nowiki>

[12:01] Simon Linden<nowiki>: with tomorrow's updates it will be on all regions</nowiki>

[12:01] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Ave OZ</nowiki>

[12:01] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Hi Oz!</nowiki>

[12:01] Hexapoda<nowiki>: It has work great for me today.</nowiki>

[12:01] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: I presume that everything is going well on the ovens?</nowiki>

[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I haven't heard any smoke alarms going off</nowiki>

[12:02] Hexapoda<nowiki>: Hello Kito.</nowiki>

[12:02] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Hello</nowiki>

[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki> tries to think of a joke about being half-baked</nowiki>

[12:02] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: if u r late,can't stay, u r crashing... than u can follow group meetting live here: </nowiki>http://rcds.nfshost.com/ques_view_chatLog.php?queOwner=llsl:Rex<nowiki>+Cronon&queName=chatLog&pg=1</nowiki>

[12:02] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: I haven't had much of a chance to assess SSA today, as RL has been ridiculously busy, but it seems to work well.</nowiki>

[12:02] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: i dont like SSA, look below my tummy</nowiki>

[12:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Andrew, Kelly or Oz ... any news or things to bring up?</nowiki>

[12:03] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I don't have any news today, except that I'm trying to track down a bug in an up and coming simulator release that makes parcel ban lines not show up.</nowiki>

[12:03] Hexapoda<nowiki>: Ansi, you look okay for me.</nowiki>

[12:04] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: is it just me or is the floor transparent?</nowiki>

[12:04] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Just you rex</nowiki>

[12:04] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: I do not have any news today.</nowiki>

[12:04] Simon Linden<nowiki>: oh, the RC updates tomorrow .. those will be the same 2 maintenance releases that are out now</nowiki>

[12:04] Simon Linden<nowiki>: ok, so the virtual table is open for questions or topics ....</nowiki>

[12:04] Hexapoda<nowiki>: Ctr-shift-r twice</nowiki>

[12:04] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Hello Baker!</nowiki>

[12:05] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: thanks hexapoda:)</nowiki>

[12:05] Conover's Flight-Helper 6.3.3 (WEAR ME!)<nowiki>: Flight-helper is ready and operational.</nowiki>

[12:05] darkenedshadow<nowiki>: Oculus viewer update please Simon if you can</nowiki>

[12:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I don't have anything new about the Occulus other than work continues. I know recently they were working on how to have the SL UI appear ... having menus hanging out in your vision is an interesting design</nowiki>

[12:06] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Speaking of Oculus, I think Oz would like to look at the Myo armband, which seems to be fixing to give Leap Motion a run for its money.</nowiki>

[12:07] Simon Linden<nowiki>: but you're not in a "window" anymore</nowiki>

[12:07] darkenedshadow<nowiki>: Yay!!!</nowiki>

[12:07] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: And it could possibly work well with the Rift.</nowiki>

[12:07] Hexapoda<nowiki>: Just learn the Rifters to use hot keys.</nowiki>

[12:07] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Have you tried one of those, Mona? I played with the Leapmotion and it was kinda fun</nowiki>

[12:08] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Haven't had the opportunity, but I'm not sure how easy it'd be to keep your arms stretched out for long periods of time (which isn't required by the Myo).</nowiki>

[12:09] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yes, that was an issue with the Leapmotion ... I think it'll take some work and experimentation to figure out how it might work best. Either one would be interesting along with the Rift</nowiki>

[12:10] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Here's the website for Myo: </nowiki>https://www.thalmic.com/myo/

[12:10] Kitto Flora<nowiki> would just settle for getting the old 3-D display back.</nowiki>

[12:11] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: The Rift needs a system like that, or the Leap Motion.</nowiki>

[12:11] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Although I must say not all of us need the 1st-person view of the Rift.</nowiki>

[12:11] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: which 3D display are you talking about Kitto? A stereoscopic view?</nowiki>

[12:12] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Dale Glass's Stereo version of the client ... made in....</nowiki>

[12:12] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: Yes, some third party viewer's had a stereoscopic view (kirsten's viewer for example)</nowiki>

[12:12] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: I never got to try it, sadly.</nowiki>

[12:13] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Humm - cant see a date but it was based on 1.18.4.2 - so several years back</nowiki>

[12:13] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: CtelAltStidio viewer has been experimenting with stereoscopic </nowiki>http://ctrlaltstudio.com/blog/2013/06/20/introducing-the-ctrlaltstudio-viewer-second-life-and-opensim-in-stereoscopic-3d

[12:13] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Stereoscopic Patch: Support for 3D with anaglyph or shutter glasses.</nowiki>

[12:13] Minuet Voir<nowiki>: lol had the link here too </nowiki>http://ctrlaltstudio.com/

[12:14] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: PLys it has an awesome purple skin :D</nowiki>

[12:14] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: I used the anaglyph - worked as well as that does</nowiki>

[12:14] Minuet Voir<nowiki>: yes! lol I use that skin</nowiki>

[12:14] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Me too haha</nowiki>

[12:14] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Vid cars supporting glasses are more common now, maybe the glasses are a little cheaper too</nowiki>

[12:15] ANSI BagPipe (wear)<nowiki>: Hello, Avatar!</nowiki>

[12:15] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: Hello ANSI BagPipe (wear) with the UUID of 9e807942-b0b6-b455-a873-c4b955efa697</nowiki>

[12:15] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ah yes, that CtelAltStidio trick used the quick-n-dirty nVidia stereoscopic wrapper</nowiki>

[12:15] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: </nowiki>http://sl.daleglass.net/<nowiki>#downloads</nowiki>

[12:15] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I think I remember hearing about that, but never tried it out.</nowiki>

[12:15] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Dunno how well a 1.18 client would work with latest SL</nowiki>

[12:15] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: I was on Dales viewer the other day actually to check something else (particle blocking) & no textures wouyld rez for me at all. Seemed to be pre windlight too.</nowiki>

[12:16] Simon Linden<nowiki>: well, you're certainly not gonna bake right :P</nowiki>

[12:16] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Does nVidia still offer that stereoscopic feature on its video cards?</nowiki>

[12:16] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Andrew - yes on the one I have</nowiki>

[12:16] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Andrew, yes. They even update it with each driver if you have installed it.</nowiki>

[12:17] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: it = 3D Vision</nowiki>

[12:17] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Well 'that'... ? Doe they have more than 1 system?</nowiki>

[12:18] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: I have a "3D Vision Photo Viewer", shows 3d photos with options of Ana and Glasses... The Ana works</nowiki>

[12:18] NightDreamer100<nowiki>: bell! 8O</nowiki>

[12:18] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Well, perhaps Oculus will deliver us into the promise of 3D immersive virtual reality.</nowiki>

[12:18] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Yeah but you loose the KB?</nowiki>

[12:19] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: nvidia anaglyph:</nowiki>http://www.nvidia.com/object/3D-Vision-Discover-Main.html

[12:19] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: it will be so much more fun when somebody gets griefed by male body parts:)</nowiki>

[12:20] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: u will really have it in your face:)</nowiki>

[12:20] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: what happens to the viewer UI in the stereoscopic view?</nowiki>

[12:20] darkenedshadow<nowiki>: .... yeah not looking forward to that one :D</nowiki>

[12:20] Simon Linden<nowiki>: In the Rift it's projected on a surface around you ... so you look up to see the menus</nowiki>

[12:21] Simon Linden<nowiki>: and they float there in mid-air</nowiki>

[12:21] darkenedshadow<nowiki>: Ah... sounds much like the UI for Minecrift :D</nowiki>

[12:21] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Andrew, in anaglyph and shutter the UI is stuck on the surface of the screen, which is like a window you look through. The world is like outside the window.</nowiki>

[12:22] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ok, so the stereoscopic vision puts the UI at some fixed distance from the eyes.... a meter or less probably</nowiki>

[12:22] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Guys, when you can, I have a question regarding limiting the server RAM usage of a script - there's an LSL function for that, but I'd like to know how one can determine how much they can limit a script's RAM usage.</nowiki>

[12:23] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: 3D wireless shutter glasses, $129 from NewEgg. Of course your vid card and monitor must be 'compliant'</nowiki>

[12:23] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I think they're experimenting with the shape of that surface too ... if it's flat, the text can look funny as it's slanting away from you</nowiki>

[12:23] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Mona, there is an upper limit of memory for each script, I think. Kelly knows the details I believe.</nowiki>

[12:24] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: You want to know what the absolute limit is? Or you want to be able to specify a lower limit?</nowiki>

[12:24] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Both, Andrew.</nowiki>

[12:25] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Kelly, perhaps you could enlighten us?</nowiki>

[12:25] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: My memory says that the old LSL scripts all had a fixed size no matter how simple or complext, but the MONO scripts take up whatever size they need... up to some maximum.</nowiki>

[12:26] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Currently mono scripts can set their memory limit as low as the memory being used at the time the call is made - if that limit is hit the script will crash.</nowiki>

[12:26] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Scripts not compiled to mono are 16k always</nowiki>

[12:26] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Mono scripts start at 64k and can be set lower to that but not higher.</nowiki>

[12:27] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: Is the 64k limit going to be changed in a near-ish future?</nowiki>

[12:27] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: If Mono script exceeds the 64 k limit you usually get a run-time 'stack-heap collision' error message and the script stops.</nowiki>

[12:27] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: It's no fun to see the script-crash message everytime I try to create something :/</nowiki>

[12:28] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: </nowiki>http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Limits

[12:28] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: As far as a theoretical 'absolute' limit on the internal systems for scripts I'm not aware of one that is meaningful. Probably something around 4gigs. However at this time we don't have any concrete plans to raise the 64k limit.</nowiki>

[12:28] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Divde your script into 2 parts that comm as necessary with Link Messages</nowiki>

[12:29] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: I spend more time trying to split up my scripts and reorganise them, than I actually spend on writing code.</nowiki>

[12:29] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: So, can I set a 16K limit for a mono script?</nowiki>

[12:29] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: you can</nowiki>

[12:29] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Martin: Welcome to the club :)</nowiki>

[12:29] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Could that be set even lower? Maybe 4K? Or 2K?</nowiki>

[12:29] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LSL_Script_Memory</nowiki>

[12:30] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: I think 6k was the practical limit I found, and even then the script had to be really simple</nowiki>

[12:30] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is half over</nowiki>

[12:30] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Thanks.</nowiki>

[12:30] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: In my experience, it's pretty difficult to get much below 4K.</nowiki>

[12:30] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: the size of the bytecode itself is included in that size, and some other script overhead.</nowiki>

[12:30] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: By overhead, you mean...?</nowiki>

[12:31] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: vars? constants?</nowiki>

[12:31] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: data surrounding every scripts required for that script to run which is not accessible by the script directly</nowiki>

[12:31] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: 'Commissioners' (for scripting-jobs) in Second Life tend to have even less knowlegde about how scripts work than customers in a real-world software-company- environment.</nowiki>

[12:31] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: It's quite common that they want to 'add' features later...</nowiki>

[12:31] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: And then your scripts break, and you have angry commissioners and alot of time to spend to re-organise your LSL</nowiki>

[12:32] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: I bet almost every scripter here had similar issues</nowiki>

[12:32] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: u need a contract tha says once the requirments have been written down any changes will cost extra and take longer:)</nowiki>

[12:33] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I'd bet any programmer has had the same thing too :)</nowiki>

[12:34] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: Well the sl viewer for example plays in another league - 64k compared to a 2 gigabyte memory limit</nowiki>

[12:34] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Tis the nature of the beast, although LSL is more constrained than most environments, so harder for "the commissioner" to understand why so expensive to extend.</nowiki>

[12:34] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i agree that it is a pain indeed having to break down your scripts when your script crashes due to not enough memory:(</nowiki>

[12:35] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Is anyone working on a deterrence to the asset pending dl/ul blocking vector thats going around in certain forms recently?</nowiki>

[12:35] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: btw. how is the fix for the exploit that allows passwords to be stolen with media on a prim and/or streams:)</nowiki>

[12:36] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Someone was asking me earlier today if it was possible to detect attached lights by an LSL script on a regular (non-attached) object.</nowiki>

[12:36] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I'm not sure which attack you mean, Lucy</nowiki>

[12:36] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: simon. if u go to swt now u will see what lucy is talking about:)</nowiki>

[12:37] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: swt = ?</nowiki>

[12:37] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Its still broken there?</nowiki>

[12:37] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: sandbox weapons testing</nowiki>

[12:38] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: its a vector that blocks assets from entering pedning ul/dl state</nowiki>

[12:38] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i think somebody is selling something that does this to the sim. u can't rez anything, and attachments don't show. but u can built and drop-in scripts</nowiki>

[12:38] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: that should really be renamed to sandbox grief testing</nowiki>

[12:38] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: Hehe</nowiki>

[12:38] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: aka LagLand:)</nowiki>

[12:39] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: hrm. I hadn't heard of that exploit yet.</nowiki>

[12:39] Simon Linden<nowiki>: There have been some crashes using the age-old techniques of rezzing too much stuff or scripts, so that probably needs some more attention</nowiki>

[12:40] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: here is a link of the exploit regarding media on a prim: </nowiki>http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/general-sl-discussion/86255-turn-off-media-sl-major.html

[12:40] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Andrew : Light sources - afaik not readable by an external script. Either set Midnight and wave a white-painted sphere around to see where light comes from, or if your client has the feature - Tools/ ShowLightRadiusForSelection, and click on stuff.</nowiki>

[12:40] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Yeah, that media / password thing seems very scary.</nowiki>

[12:41] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Ok, so maybe the llSensor() should be able to look for lights.</nowiki>

[12:41] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: how that posisble? password via media?</nowiki>

[12:41] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Adam: not public knowledge. it's an exploit, so... buffer overrun in QT? in WebKit? who knows?</nowiki>

[12:42] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Andrew: Are you suggesting an extention to llSensor() for finding light sources?</nowiki>

[12:42] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: yeah hard to beleive, i mean a lot of people won;t use media cos of the ip explouit, bu t never ehard that one</nowiki>

[12:42] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: its new adamburp</nowiki>

[12:42] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Yeah. I'm sure there are other ways that llSensor() should be enhanced.</nowiki>

[12:43] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: As I recall Kitto you were asking for a filter for objects by owner.</nowiki>

[12:43] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Lights: frankly, I'd rather be able to *set* all the properties by script, finally, more than be able to *sense* them.</nowiki>

[12:43] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Andrew - maybe but fixing region border crossing is 100 to 1000 times more impartant. Theres 2 work-arounds for pesky lights. Theres no work around and frequent crashes for region crossing.</nowiki>

[12:44] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: What's this exploit about? XSS in media in SL?</nowiki>

[12:44] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I would like to see a sensor pos input as well as a rot</nowiki>

[12:44] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: not make teh function bound to the object it is in and the object's pos</nowiki>

[12:44] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: the only info about that mona seems to be the blog post</nowiki>

[12:44] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Is there any nwes about being able to script materials changes?</nowiki>

[12:44] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: also, wth is up with the lag</nowiki>

[12:45] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and rot</nowiki>

[12:45] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Andrew = llSensor that would use regex in string fields would be useful, would cut down on sim load. BUT since it was no on horizon part of recent track-follower re-design designed out the need for regex.</nowiki>

[12:46] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: *sigh* I'd thought such exploits should have been killed long ago... Rather than allowing scamware/malware makers and black hats to capitalise on them.</nowiki>

[12:46] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: regex support of any kind and 'reducing load' rarely go in the same sentence. ;)</nowiki>

[12:46] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: I read that thread, adn still find it hard to beleive.</nowiki>

[12:47] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: but like owt else, have to wait and see</nowiki>

[12:47] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Adam, if it didn't come from Cristiano, I'd doubt it too.</nowiki>

[12:47] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Kelly: regex in script engine would surely be more efficient than the present regex written in LSL?</nowiki>

[12:47] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: it is harder to time slice appropriately</nowiki>

[12:47] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: (But maybe not if you write it in C#)</nowiki>

[12:50] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Lucy: it *is* very handy that llCastRay can be cast to/from anywhere in the sim, not limited to the scripted object's location. So that might be nice for sensors, too.</nowiki>

[12:51] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: castray is limited</nowiki>

[12:51] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: its a wildcard</nowiki>

[12:51] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: heh, no kidding</nowiki>

[12:51] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: it like poking a stak of hay with a needle trying to find another needle:)</nowiki>

[12:52] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: it's good at finding haystacks, though. :p</nowiki>

[12:52] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki> wishes Baker a very Happy Birthday</nowiki>

[12:52] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Anyone noticed error in castray return when a small prim close surface is just above a 'megaprim' top surface? It sees the lower megaprim rather than the closer small prim?</nowiki>

[12:54] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: how small is "small"? and how close do the two faces have to be for the cast to fail against the small prim?</nowiki>

[12:55] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is almost over</nowiki>

[12:55] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Small is 5,2,0.01 meters, and close in 0.02M surface difference</nowiki>

[12:56] Simon Linden<nowiki>: that's getting down near the collision tolerances, I think</nowiki>

[12:56] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I see, so the small prim is more thin than small.</nowiki>

[12:56] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'll ask Falcon if he knows why that might fail.</nowiki>

[12:57] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: The red cone represets the raycast, firing down, It will see the grey floor here before the track</nowiki>

[12:58] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: then raycast from the other side ;)</nowiki>

[12:58] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: How do I know when to raycast from other side?</nowiki>

[12:58] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Interesting.</nowiki>

[12:58] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: ..or even where the other side is?</nowiki>

[12:58] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Kitto, what happens when you make the track thicker?</nowiki>

[12:59] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: It doens't actually have to be so thin, does it?</nowiki>

[12:59] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: I Think maybe nothig - I think this has failed on thick track too</nowiki>

[12:59] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ok</nowiki>

[12:59] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: The problem is when the track top surface uis only just above the large floor prim beneath</nowiki>

[13:00] Meeter<nowiki>: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group</nowiki>

[13:00] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: right, I wonder if there is a object scale discrepancy between what is seen and the physics collision shape that si causing this</nowiki>

[13:01] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: also, with castray, theres still the issue with physics prims turnign non-physical and still being treated as physical with castray</nowiki>

[13:01] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I think we've got a tool that can view the collision shapes, so we might be able to use that.</nowiki>

[13:02] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and for some damn reason I can't find that jira</nowiki>

[13:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I know we used to trim the physics shape a bit by the collision tolerance, which allowed stacked cubes to look right. But I think we changed some of that with a much lower collision tolerance</nowiki>

[13:02] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Lucia, you mean the transition is done via something like llSetStatus()?</nowiki>

[13:02] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: bye everyone. o/</nowiki>

[13:02] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: bye Kelly</nowiki>

[13:02] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc kelly</nowiki>

[13:02] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Bye all, and thanks</nowiki>

[13:02] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Well - this was a problem at one Owner's build - he put a lot of track barly above his megaprim floor - the track updater could not find it using castray. When I move the track up a little it worked correctly.</nowiki>

[13:02] Petr Topaz<nowiki>: gye kelly</nowiki>

[13:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Thanks everyone for coming today and the good conversation</nowiki>

[13:02] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: no, if you are filtering for physics with castray, you can return a hit from a non-phys prim that was once phys</nowiki>

[13:03] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Yes Simon, however I'd expect that collision shape shaving to actually help the thin box to be seen by the castray.</nowiki>

[13:03] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Bye Simon, thanks for having us.</nowiki>

[13:03] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: BUT no other user has yet reported same problem</nowiki>

[13:03] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: That is, if the object is thin enough we don't shave it, but we do shave the big objects.</nowiki>

[13:03] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc all those leaving</nowiki>

[13:03] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-1059<nowiki> Lucia?</nowiki>

[13:03] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: So the floor should actually collide lower than what is visible, while the thin prim would collide higher than visible.</nowiki>

[13:04] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yes, Whirls, thanks</nowiki>

[13:04] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: thanks all for watching && thanks for Baker for the permisson to decorate a (busy) Linden</nowiki>

[13:04] Baker Linden<nowiki>: haha, no problem! I enjoyed the food pellets.</nowiki>

[13:04] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Kitto, does the cast ray still fail when you pull the caster back a bit?</nowiki>

[13:05] Andrew Linden<nowiki> whispers: That is, does it depend on the proximity of the device initiating the castray?</nowiki>

[13:05] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: That is, does it depend on the proximity of the device initiating the castray?</nowiki>

[13:05] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Andrew - that I dont know - would need some mods to the track-layer object's scripts so I could vary its height</nowiki>

[13:06] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'm just wondering if your cast ray start point is not quite where you think it is.</nowiki>

[13:07] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Ok, I've got to go. Thanks for coming.</nowiki>

[13:08] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc andrew</nowiki>

[13:08] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Thank you, Andrew.</nowiki>

[13:08] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: next week, ill decorate andrew Linden</nowiki>

[13:08] Petr Topaz<nowiki>: bye</nowiki>

[13:08] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Andrew Ray start is the center of this object, who's wheels' rest' on the track top surface(by script llSetPos()0, the end is 2M lower</nowiki>

[13:08] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Thank you, Simon.</nowiki>

[13:08] Petr Topaz<nowiki>: this is not good</nowiki>

[13:08] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Thanks Simon. :)</nowiki>

 
[[Simulator_User_Group]]
{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.08.13|Prev 2013.08.13]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.08.27|Next 2013.08.27]]
|}

Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.07.23

2013-08-06T23:53:09Z

Andrew Linden:

[[Simulator_User_Group]]
{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.07.16|Prev 2013.07.16]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.07.30|Next 2013.07.30]]
|}

== List of Speakers ==
{|
|Baker Linden
|Davido Chrome
|DrFran Babcock
|-
|Gaius Tripsa
|Ima Mechanique
|Kennylex Luckless
|-
|Kitto Flora
|Lucia Nightfire
|Mona Eberhardt
|-
|Nalates Urriah
|Petr Topaz
|Qie Niangao
|-
|Rex Cronon
|Simon Linden
|Sit Test
|-
|Sovereign Engineer
|Talarus Luan
|Tiberious Neruda
|-
|Visitor Detector
|Whirly Fizzle
|Yuzuru Jewell
|-
|Zander Roxley
|}

== Transcript ==
[12:01] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Hello everyone ... I can get started with the server update news</nowiki>

[12:01] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The forum post is here : </nowiki>http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2013-07-22/td-p/2095945

[12:02] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Hav you automated the transcripts?</nowiki>

[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: We updated the main channel this morning with the "Experience tools" project.</nowiki>

[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: This really shouldn't affect anything, and unfortunately I don't have any updates or info on how this might be released as a feature or product</nowiki>

[12:03] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: </nowiki>http://rcds.nfshost.com/ques_view_chatLog.phpfor<nowiki> owner use "llsl:Rex Cronon" for que use "chatLog" and go here></nowiki>http://rcds.nfshost.com/ques_view_chatLog.php

[12:03] Visitor Detector<nowiki>: Returning visitor to your land: Yuzuru Jewell</nowiki>

[12:03] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: So it's out there, but not strictly usable?</nowiki>

[12:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The server-side appearance code has been doing well and the full grid rollout is likely soon</nowiki>

[12:04] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Yes, AlveKatt</nowiki>

[12:04] Visitor Detector<nowiki>: Returning visitor to your land: Sovereign Engineer</nowiki>

[12:05] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: O.o</nowiki>

[12:05] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Tomorrow we'll get the RCs updated. The maintenace branch on BlueSteel is the same, and the server-side appearance code will be on LeTigre and Magnum</nowiki>

[12:05] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Why does everyone have to pick on the chicken?</nowiki>

[12:05] DrFran Babcock<nowiki>: another day, another pusher</nowiki>

[12:06] Sovereign Engineer<nowiki>: D:</nowiki>

[12:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I'm not monitoring the playground so send me an IM if anything gets out of hand :)</nowiki>

[12:06] Petr Topaz<nowiki>: mmm KFC</nowiki>

[12:07] Sovereign Engineer<nowiki>: \o/</nowiki>

[12:07] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That's it for release news ... Baker, did you have anything?</nowiki>

[12:07] DrFran Babcock<nowiki>: omg.</nowiki>

[12:07] Baker Linden<nowiki>: I'm still working on the viewer-side implementation of group bans</nowiki>

[12:08] Baker Linden<nowiki>: I'm currently deciding on the format of the data coming into the viewer, and adding it to the group manager subsystem in the viewer.</nowiki>

[12:08] Baker Linden<nowiki>: That's about it :)</nowiki>

[12:08] Visitor Detector<nowiki>: Returning visitor to your land: Whirly Fizzle</nowiki>

[12:08] Simon Linden<nowiki>: ok - the table's open for topics and questions then</nowiki>

[12:09] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Any news on the interest list work Andrew was taking care of?</nowiki>

[12:10] Simon Linden<nowiki>: No - he was wrapping that up but it wasn't ready for release yet. I don't know if it's a possibility for next week or not</nowiki>

[12:10] Simon Linden<nowiki>: He was on vacation a bit so progress stopped during then</nowiki>

[12:12] Simon Linden<nowiki>: This might be a very quiet meeting :)</nowiki>

[12:12] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: No one's working on the serious problems... what's to ask?</nowiki>

[12:12] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Btw; I has a convert material question. Is it possible to do an auto "undo" if you try to convert an object and it get to high LI? Now objects are returned and then it can be hard to restore them.</nowiki>

[12:13] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Ie, if an object get to high LI it get back to original state instead of getting returned</nowiki>

[12:13] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Can we expect there to get the world update problem for quick turns to come back when the interest list work rolls out?</nowiki>

[12:13] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: What Kenny said!</nowiki>

[12:14] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: yeah... I remember that was mentioned yesterday at the mesh meeting</nowiki>

[12:14] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Kennylex - so I understand it ... you add materials, this switches you to the new accounting which gives you a higher cost, it gets returned and you're kinda stuck?</nowiki>

[12:14] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Or a feature to estimate the LI when materials are added...</nowiki>

[12:15] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: I did miss that, but this is for all objects.</nowiki>

[12:15] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: I did try convert a build to convex hulls and it become around 35 000 LI.</nowiki>

[12:15] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: wow kennylex</nowiki>

[12:16] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: erf... that sucks</nowiki>

[12:16] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: That's... ridiculous.</nowiki>

[12:16] DrFran Babcock<nowiki>: where does one rez that ???</nowiki>

[12:16] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: In OpenSim. :P</nowiki>

[12:16] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: I don't think he -can-</nowiki>

[12:16] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: there r not enought prims in the sim for that:(</nowiki>

[12:16] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: To fix it you has to wear the build and eddit while wearing it</nowiki>

[12:16] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: right.</nowiki>

[12:16] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Ah, that's clever.</nowiki>

[12:16] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: LL will have to fix </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SEC-1287<nowiki> before they allow parcel prim overflow, heh</nowiki>

[12:17] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: (Also, I swear that sometimes the LI *temporarily* goes super-critical, then settles down to a real number.)</nowiki>

[12:17] Simon Linden<nowiki>: hmm, yeah, that sounds pretty ugly</nowiki>

[12:17] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: There has to be some kind of warning.</nowiki>

[12:17] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: but this brings up an interesting question... what was the limit of 15,000 prims a sim originally set for?</nowiki>

[12:17] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Closed Jira.</nowiki>

[12:17] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: like, why was that the limit?</nowiki>

[12:18] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i think was for havok</nowiki>

[12:19] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I think it was a best guess at the time for a reasonable number ... given the variety of prims, it's not a real measure of how loaded or full the region is, but it needed some limit</nowiki>

[12:20] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: You still can make simcrashingly complex physics shapes with 15000 prims I gather.</nowiki>

[12:21] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: What is being changed for Materials? I look at the LL Wiki for Materials - I don't see any changes.</nowiki>

[12:21] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: But I think LI system is good, it has made me optimize mote, but it need to be safe and give a carrot to thise who do optimize</nowiki>

[12:21] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: The thing I keep coming back to is that the use of any of the new mesh/materials stuff is seriously discouraged by the unpredictability (and often outright lunacy) of the LI system.</nowiki>

[12:21] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: if you need physics to crash sims you're doing it wrong</nowiki>

[12:21] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: okay... then that begs the next logical question: now that we're WELL off of Havok 1, and into the 'LI era', why is 15,000 still the limit?</nowiki>

[12:21] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The new accounting is an attempt to get a more accurate measurement of "cost" but that turns out to be really complex ... and I know it's not perfect</nowiki>

[12:22] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: not perfect?</nowiki>

[12:22] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Yeah. You really need safeguard from makiing an object unrezable by accident.</nowiki>

[12:22] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I know you don't think it's perfect</nowiki>

[12:22] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: not PERFECT?! No. It';s outright B-R-O-K-E-N</nowiki>

[12:22] Sovereign Engineer<nowiki>: <.,</nowiki>

[12:22] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Is it not better that it is easy to understand rather than accurate?</nowiki>

[12:22] Sovereign Engineer<nowiki> has an object with an LI of 630,000</nowiki>

[12:22] Sovereign Engineer<nowiki>: o.o</nowiki>

[12:22] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Wow lol</nowiki>

[12:23] Sovereign Engineer<nowiki>: or was it 640</nowiki>

[12:23] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I think LL's next chance at acceptable "gamble" of changing the LI calc would be on top of increasing the 15000 LI limit</nowiki>

[12:23] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: With the new LI system you could lower the max to force people to use optimized builds, right? You can have soo much more detail.</nowiki>

[12:23] Zander Roxley<nowiki>: 630K</nowiki>

[12:23] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Well, there's a bit of distance between "not perfect (but close)" and "not perfect (and mostly unusable)".</nowiki>

[12:23] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: the LI system, especially with mesh, actually PUNISHES you for making LOD models</nowiki>

[12:24] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: 12.5 million land impact linkset - </nowiki>http://static.dyp.im/4S1V3LiIDX/bb137f5c429fff5180fca48f53689a4d.png<nowiki> <--beat this high score for a single object LI</nowiki>

[12:24] Sovereign Engineer<nowiki>: Is that a challenege?</nowiki>

[12:24] Sovereign Engineer<nowiki>: o.o</nowiki>

[12:24] Sovereign Engineer<nowiki>: :></nowiki>

[12:24] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Tiberious: Does that include when you make a prim physics shape for the Mesh model?</nowiki>

[12:24] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: idk, I wasn't even trying, just impressed</nowiki>

[12:24] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: yes, that includes a physics mesh</nowiki>

[12:25] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Tiberious, you can lower the LI by making the physics shape from untortured prims rather than Mesh.</nowiki>

[12:25] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: in fact, the LI system encourages gaming the ever-loving HELL out of it by making one mesh for the High LOD, and using it for the top -3- slots</nowiki>

[12:26] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Uhm, I would like to point out that's not a "score" where you're trying to get bigger numbers ;)</nowiki>

[12:26] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: and generating the lowest 'cause nobody ever really sees that one</nowiki>

[12:26] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: nope, but fun nonetheless</nowiki>

[12:26] Simon Linden<nowiki>: but that said, it's pretty funny</nowiki>

[12:26] Sovereign Engineer<nowiki> is already thinking about how to get one above 12.5 mil</nowiki>

[12:26] Sovereign Engineer<nowiki>: o.o</nowiki>

[12:27] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Funny for you, disheartening for me. :-/</nowiki>

[12:27] DrFran Babcock<nowiki> tries to make everything 1LI if it's going to be rezzed. Challenging</nowiki>

[12:27] Simon Linden<nowiki>: so was it the physics shape that pushed it up so high?</nowiki>

[12:27] Zander Roxley<nowiki>: 0.5</nowiki>

[12:27] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: imo all these weirdly huge LI are not really needed</nowiki>

[12:27] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: What happens if you wear that object Lucia? Do we all crash? :D</nowiki>

[12:27] Sovereign Engineer<nowiki>: uh</nowiki>

[12:27] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: no physics involved</nowiki>

[12:27] Sovereign Engineer<nowiki>: your framerate will be very sad.</nowiki>

[12:27] Sovereign Engineer<nowiki>: Especially toaster gpus :o</nowiki>

[12:27] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: can't rez it... it's over 15,000 LI</nowiki>

[12:27] Sovereign Engineer<nowiki>: you can wear it.</nowiki>

[12:27] Sovereign Engineer<nowiki>: silly.</nowiki>

[12:27] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: had I added physics it would probably have been astronomical</nowiki>

[12:27] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: If prims get to small it should automaticly become convex hull</nowiki>

[12:28] Sovereign Engineer<nowiki>: or rez it as temp</nowiki>

[12:28] Sovereign Engineer<nowiki>: o.o</nowiki>

[12:28] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[12:28] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Or none.</nowiki>

[12:28] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: and even when holes become to small</nowiki>

[12:28] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: idk what my ARC would have been wearing it either, heh</nowiki>

[12:28] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: the LI number does not represend the actual nr of objects in a linked set. it represents how heave an linked set is</nowiki>

[12:29] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: heavy</nowiki>

[12:29] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: how heavy*</nowiki>

[12:29] Visitor Detector<nowiki>: Returning visitor to your land: JayR Cela</nowiki>

[12:29] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: The LI number is an amorphous, opaque calculation</nowiki>

[12:29] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: but, this just goes to show why the LI system is so bad as it stands</nowiki>

[12:29] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: I wear 15 000 LI object now but ARC not go up so much, but it is for things you wear has no phys shape.</nowiki>

[12:29] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: one thing I frown on with LI is, I wish it could be displayed along with prim counts in the prim owner's list</nowiki>

[12:29] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Though if you can fool the LI system by only simplifying the last LOD that must be considered a bug, right?</nowiki>

[12:29] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: With prim builds, it is simple and transparent.</nowiki>

[12:29] Simon Linden<nowiki>: At a really basic level, the system is designed to give feedback on doing things that are really costly for the region ... so it definitely doesn't like something you're doing to it ... too many triangles, concave surfaces, that kind of stuff</nowiki>

[12:30] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: I mean, don't get me wrong...</nowiki>

[12:30] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: if i set a linked set to pahtom its land impact should be zero</nowiki>

[12:30] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: the idea is pretty damned good... it's just the implementation screwed the pooch</nowiki>

[12:30] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Davido, I wouldn't call it a bug, I'd call it breathing room</nowiki>

[12:31] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Well, we've already seen that is irregular.</nowiki>

[12:31] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: How so?</nowiki>

[12:31] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: as many content creators rely on that explicitly I would think</nowiki>

[12:32] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Rex, you have to consider that LI are also part of SL economy, I think.</nowiki>

[12:32] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: that its is a bizzare and unrealistic economy:(</nowiki>

[12:32] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: all of my mesh creations that don't rely on physics structure I upload with either the last LOD or last two LOD values at 1 or 0 to get the lowest LI while maintaining decent LOD by distance and size</nowiki>

[12:32] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: it allows for being gamed to hell and back, and puts seriously unreasonable expectations on mesh creators</nowiki>

[12:33] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Phantom just zeroes out the physics cost.. there's still simulation costs for rendering and transfer.</nowiki>

[12:33] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: I mean, if I make an object that's only 62 triangles at highest LOD, why do I need to lower THAT?</nowiki>

[12:33] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: escuse me. the server doesn't render the prims</nowiki>

[12:33] Visitor Detector<nowiki>: First time visitor to your land: Zidonuke Ghost</nowiki>

[12:33] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: it sort of makes sense to me anyway LOD levels acting as multipliers or exponentials</nowiki>

[12:34] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: no, but it does send the geometry</nowiki>

[12:34] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Simon, the LI system is supposed to reward if you have made incremental simplifications in the LODs, right?</nowiki>

[12:34] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: No, it doesn't, but 1) it does transfer them, and 2) render cost figures into LI.</nowiki>

[12:34] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: actually the data is located elsewhere</nowiki>

[12:34] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I don't know the details on the LOD effect</nowiki>

[12:34] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: It still knows about them, because it has to run them through the interest list.</nowiki>

[12:35] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: I do not like that a mesh as a cube that is optimized shape has hither LI in large scale than a sculptie</nowiki>

[12:35] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: certain stuff needs to maintain it LOD throughout all distances though, like high rez frequency mesh</nowiki>

[12:35] Simon Linden<nowiki>: THere's some basic info here : </nowiki>http://community.secondlife.com/t5/English-Knowledge-Base/Calculating-land-impact/ta-p/974163

[12:35] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: and is not like a linked set has a few gibabytes of data</nowiki>

[12:35] Simon Linden<nowiki>: and it shows how you can see the download, physics and display factors</nowiki>

[12:35] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: my shields have to have full LOD or whenever a plate rezzes its busy loading LODs</nowiki>

[12:35] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: if it does than it is a monster</nowiki>

[12:35] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Lucy, I think you need to figure out other ways to work around such limitations.</nowiki>

[12:36] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: there are none in that regard</nowiki>

[12:36] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: that's only 62 triangles</nowiki>

[12:36] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: why does that -need- lowered any further?</nowiki>

[12:36] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: but as I was saying about the last two LOD levels beign low it allows for complex mesh without high LI cost</nowiki>

[12:37] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: to rez very, very, very, very fast</nowiki>

[12:37] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: faster than a bullet that comes towards u at full speed</nowiki>

[12:37] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I have stuff I uploaded thats 30 - 40k tri's taht uses only a few LI, where as if I maintained that LOD throughout the levels it would have been several thousand LI</nowiki>

[12:37] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: oh that, I have no doubt</nowiki>

[12:37] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: but 30,000 triangles is, frankly, overkill</nowiki>

[12:38] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: true, but my app required it explicitly</nowiki>

[12:38] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and I don't use many that use that level, heh</nowiki>

[12:38] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Rex, the physics shape doesn't have LODs, so the shield would need to be fully rezzed to work?</nowiki>

[12:38] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I know how to optimize in normal apps</nowiki>

[12:39] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Wouldnot*</nowiki>

[12:39] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: depends what objects u use</nowiki>

[12:39] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: but, when an object is only up to about 640 triangles at highest LOD, and you provide LOD meshes for the other 3 slots that do lower... why is that punished?</nowiki>

[12:39] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: This bear is free to copy, try to optimize it by give some patrs "none" as physical shape.</nowiki>

[12:40] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: No Mesh in that?</nowiki>

[12:40] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Oh, quick question, Simon.. would it be possible to find out the mathematical difference between llSitTarget positioning of avatars and llSetLinkPrimitiveParams positioning of same? Strife and I have been trying to make a more accurate UpdateSitTarget.</nowiki>

[12:40] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: No mesh, mesh are for losers.</nowiki>

[12:40] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I would rez a 5ht iteration Menger Sponge here, but its 600k tri's and may lag everyone, lol</nowiki>

[12:40] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: *5th</nowiki>

[12:40] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Do not look at mesh I did and have here :-)</nowiki>

[12:41] LagMeterVer4e<nowiki>: Prims Are Getting Low At Location: Linden Village - Simon Linden</nowiki>

[12:41] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Lucy, Oooh, Is it a fractal?!</nowiki>

[12:41] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Mmmmmmmenger Sponges :D</nowiki>

[12:41] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Yup</nowiki>

[12:41] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: idt its a fractal but its along the lines</nowiki>

[12:41] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: It is</nowiki>

[12:41] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Lucy, you can't tell and not rez!</nowiki>

[12:41] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Talarus ... you mean the difference between where a sit position gets set and a prim position?</nowiki>

[12:41] Gaius Tripsa<nowiki>: We're not spongeworthy?</nowiki>

[12:41] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Simon: yes.</nowiki>

[12:42] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I'm not sure what you're asking but it sounds more interesting than the LI calculations :P</nowiki>

[12:42] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: As it relates to avatar positioning.</nowiki>

[12:42] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: and this is the other object...</nowiki>

[12:42] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: it's only like 640 triangles at highest LOD</nowiki>

[12:42] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: I've asked about it in the past, but never have been able to get someone to look at the code and help answer it.</nowiki>

[12:42] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: and if you look, it has decent LODs</nowiki>

[12:42] DrFran Babcock<nowiki>: and 2 LI</nowiki>

[12:43] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: exactly</nowiki>

[12:43] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I'm guessing that would depend on the prim size and shape ... you end up sitting on a surface, which is some distance from the location</nowiki>

[12:43] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: We have an experimental function which approximates it.</nowiki>

[12:43] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Talarus, what makes you think that the current approximations aren't precise?</nowiki>

[12:43] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: the shiny one was 'cheated'</nowiki>

[12:43] Simon Linden<nowiki>: ... prim location, or "center" even if that's not really in the center</nowiki>

[12:43] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Simon, I don't think that's true for scripted sits?</nowiki>

[12:43] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: and it's 1.7 download weight</nowiki>

[12:43] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Empirical testing, Qie</nowiki>

[12:43] Simon Linden<nowiki>: by scripted you mean with a sit position that's been set, right?</nowiki>

[12:44] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: so, having the custom LODs was actually punished</nowiki>

[12:44] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Isn't it allways relative to the prims center?</nowiki>

[12:44] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Depending on orientation and avatar height, it can be off by up to several centimeters</nowiki>

[12:44] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: I wonder, because it's easy to test... but then it was by just such testing that the current approximation was derived.</nowiki>

[12:44] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: I've discussed it with you in the past. :)</nowiki>

[12:45] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: heh, that was a *long* time ago.</nowiki>

[12:45] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Yup, Simon</nowiki>

[12:45] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: 'cheated' (high for top 3 LODs, and a generated Lowest): 1.7</nowiki>

<nowiki>Custom LODs: 2.3</nowiki>

[12:45] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Yus. This is SL. Issues have long lives. :P</nowiki>

[12:45] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: that's why I say the LI system punishes you for trying</nowiki>

[12:45] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Also, A fat butt will interesect if you were in a thin avatar when testing the sit position. The center of the avatar is the hip somewhere, I think?</nowiki>

[12:46] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I desperately tried to read taht slowly, lol</nowiki>

[12:46] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: It is hare to use LI, but it can be rewarding.</nowiki>

[12:46] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Basically, there is a mathematical discrepancy between the sit target and where the avatar is positioned via llSLPP</nowiki>

[12:46] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: what I'm saying is the LI system should reward you for making the LODs, even if they're not the drastic cuts LL expects</nowiki>

[12:47] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: and materials are awesome, I has some in the Borg ship. It shall be free to copy too</nowiki>

[12:47] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yeah, I can imagine AV size might come into play for that ... I don't know what exact part gets tied to the position, but assuming it's in the AV center / core you wouldn't match the outside of the shape</nowiki>

[12:47] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: The UpdateSitTarget function in the wiki is an approximation, and we've refined it a bit, but it is still not 100% accurate.</nowiki>

[12:47] Sit Test<nowiki>: Hello, Avatar!</nowiki>

[12:47] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Tal, I vaguely recall somebody claiming that the leg length of the avatar shape, specifically, would affect how the sit offset worked. This back when Lex Neva and company were first trying to derive the equation we all use now.</nowiki>

[12:48] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Escort DeFarge, I think</nowiki>

[12:48] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: ah, yeah, I think that's correct.</nowiki>

[12:48] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: using LI is like being slowly tortured. i guess that is good if u like bdsm:)</nowiki>

[12:49] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: I can't find the wiki page for update sit target...</nowiki>

[12:49] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: </nowiki>http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlSitTarget<nowiki>#Useful_Snippets</nowiki>

[12:49] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Anyway, point is, there is a function of some kind which will give a 100% translation, but it really needs some LL input from someone looking at the code.</nowiki>

[12:49] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Yeah, it's in llSitTarget</nowiki>

[12:51] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Oh, so it's a safeguard function of sorts?</nowiki>

[12:51] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I suspect the server side is actually pretty simple, but what you want is the right viewer result where people look seated properly</nowiki>

[12:52] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Well, no, it's all server-side</nowiki>

[12:52] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: yeah, it's not simply a question of appearance...</nowiki>

[12:52] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: it's kind of... repeatability.</nowiki>

[12:53] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: I don't care where they are seated, I just want to make sure I put the same coords into llSLPP that match the ones in llSitTarget</nowiki>

[12:53] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: As it stands, there is approximately a 0.4m discrepancy in the Z axis.</nowiki>

[12:54] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: iirc does that get off if they have shoes on or not?</nowiki>

[12:54] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: shows you how much I work with visuals and sittarget, heh</nowiki>

[12:54] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: and that approximation varies based on at least one factor.</nowiki>

[12:54] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Supposedly it does, but I haven't tested that part.</nowiki>

[12:55] Simon Linden<nowiki>: What are you setting via llSLPP?</nowiki>

[12:55] Simon Linden<nowiki>: prim pos?</nowiki>

[12:55] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: The avatar position</nowiki>

[12:55] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: as a link on the link set</nowiki>

[12:55] Simon Linden<nowiki>: ok, tell me the PRIM_WHATEVER flag you're using</nowiki>

[12:55] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: PRIM_POSITION</nowiki>

[12:55] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: In what context does this thing appear?</nowiki>

[12:56] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: lmao, we need PRIM_WHATEVER now</nowiki>

[12:56] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Furniture, mostly</nowiki>

[12:57] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: I know you can offset the avatar in teh making of the pose. Could that be it?</nowiki>

[12:57] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: If someone sits on a sit target, and is moved with PRIM_POSITION to the same offset, they will be off by some amount of error.</nowiki>

[12:57] Simon Linden<nowiki>: ok ... so that sets the offset for the center point of a given prim. That won't be the same as a sit position, right?</nowiki>

[12:57] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Ooh.</nowiki>

[12:57] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Could it be it gets Prim position plus Sit target in the new prim?</nowiki>

[12:58] Simon Linden<nowiki>: ah, I think I get it ... so you've set the set target. You then move the prim, and the sit changes? Is that the problem?</nowiki>

[12:58] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Not moving any prims, moving the avatar with PRIM_POSITION</nowiki>

[12:58] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: the seated avatar</nowiki>

[12:59] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: my global pos versus teh sittarget here is off by .35</nowiki>

[12:59] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Oh, a luxyry moded.</nowiki>

[12:59] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: When an avatar sits on a linkset, they become a link in the linkset that you can move around with PRIM_POSITION</nowiki>

[12:59] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: ... and nobody yet mentioned the pose construction ;)</nowiki>

[13:00] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: The position vector you use is off from the sit target by some factor, based on the at least the avatar height.</nowiki>

[13:00] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: don't animations also change ave position?</nowiki>

[13:00] Simon Linden<nowiki>: they can, Rex</nowiki>

[13:00] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: They can, but that is an additional consideration</nowiki>

[13:00] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: maybe is the animation that introduces the offset</nowiki>

[13:01] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: ?</nowiki>

[13:01] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: I just would like the base translation function to be accurate. I can then deal with animation offsets.</nowiki>

[13:01] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: So basically you can reset it?</nowiki>

[13:01] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: No, because I am using the same animation in both cases to test it</nowiki>

[13:01] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Without unsitting?</nowiki>

[13:01] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Can't*</nowiki>

[13:01] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: See later, I has to go.</nowiki>

[13:01] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc all those leaving</nowiki>

[13:02] Visitor Detector<nowiki>: Returning visitor to your land: Nalates Urriah</nowiki>

[13:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: You get different results with different sized AVs, right?</nowiki>

[13:02] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Correct.</nowiki>

[13:02] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: That's why there is a llGetAgentSize in UpdateSitTarget</nowiki>

[13:03] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: btw. all those of u that were late. u can see the transcript now. for owner use "llsl:Rex Cronon" for que use "chatLog" and go here></nowiki>http://rcds.nfshost.com/ques_view_chatLog.php

[13:03] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: But there are also some other factors involved</nowiki>

[13:03] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Talarus, what do you use this function for? Customizable sit position?</nowiki>

[13:03] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: and I would like to know what they are, and if I can even include them in a translation function</nowiki>

[13:03] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Rex, I want to see it. but I can't.</nowiki>

[13:04] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Yes. it is a poseball-less furniture system</nowiki>

[13:04] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Rex, did you log mondays meeting?</nowiki>

[13:04] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i launched my site today. nothing happend monday</nowiki>

[13:04] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Nothing?!</nowiki>

[13:04] Baker Linden<nowiki>: take care everyone! Have a good week! See some of you Thursday!</nowiki>

[13:05] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc baker</nowiki>

[13:05] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Thank you, Backer.</nowiki>

[13:05] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: yuzuru. what u mean u can't?</nowiki>

[13:05] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Anyway, if you can look into it and help out any, we would appreciate it, Simon. :)</nowiki>

[13:05] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: I can't see the chat log of this meeting.</nowiki>

[13:06] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: I am late for 10min.</nowiki>

[13:06] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yeah, SLPP is accurate, sittarget sux, heh</nowiki>

[13:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I see one factor in the code - it's shifting 0.75 * the AVs x direction scale</nowiki>

[13:06] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: yuzuru. did u go to </nowiki>http://rcds.nfshost.com/ques_view_chatLog.php?

[13:07] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: yes</nowiki>

[13:07] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: exclude the question mark</nowiki>

[13:07] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: x?</nowiki>

[13:07] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: yes</nowiki>

[13:07] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: there is no log.</nowiki>

[13:08] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: for owner textbox use(llsl:Rex Cronon), for que textbox use(chatLog)</nowiki>

[13:08] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: tried it, Rex.. get "Que is missing"</nowiki>

[13:08] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yes, the x component from llGetAgentSize()</nowiki>

[13:08] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: huh.. interesting</nowiki>

[13:08] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Could be that Sittarget and PRIM_POSITION uses different origin values? One might use the pose bone position value while the other uses collision box center, perhaps?</nowiki>

[13:08] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Oh I can see it!</nowiki>

[13:08] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Thank you!</nowiki>

[13:08] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Well, if it was just a simple offset, that would be easy to calculate.</nowiki>

[13:08] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: :)</nowiki>

[13:09] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: But it changes based on several factors, only one of them known.</nowiki>

[13:09] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That's the one calculation I can see in the code during a sit that looks like it's using the AV size</nowiki>

[13:10] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: and is x, rather than z? Strange</nowiki>

[13:10] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Rex, It is very useful!</nowiki>

[13:10] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: it uses it so your size not hovering over the prim like you were in a public bathroom, lol</nowiki>

[13:10] Simon Linden<nowiki>: oh, never mind, I'm looking in the wrong place .. that's un-sitting code</nowiki>

[13:10] Simon Linden<nowiki>: sorry</nowiki>

[13:10] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: u r welcome:)</nowiki>

[13:12] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: So far, I have sampled avs from ~1.16m to ~2.45m tall, and created a second-order curve function which approximates the variations better than the current UpdateSitTarget, but it is still an approximation.</nowiki>

[13:13] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: simon. i u guys had a uml diagram would be relativley easy to find things without getting lost in code:)</nowiki>

[13:13] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: It is exact for the three control points I use to generate the curve, but still off for all others to one degree or another.</nowiki>

[13:14] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I'm not seeing any other offsets using the AV size, but it must be buried somewhere</nowiki>

[13:14] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Could possibly be that the avatars intersecting physics shape pushes it out a bit?</nowiki>

[13:14] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I'm sorry but I have to get going</nowiki>

[13:14] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Thank you Simon</nowiki>

[13:14] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: bye Simon</nowiki>

[13:14] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Thatnk you Simon!</nowiki>

[13:14] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: it could be a constant</nowiki>

[13:15] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Thank you, Simon.</nowiki>

[13:15] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Thanks for comig today</nowiki>



 
[[Simulator_User_Group]]
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| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.07.16|Prev 2013.07.16]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.07.30|Next 2013.07.30]]
|}

Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.07.16

2013-08-06T23:22:57Z

Andrew Linden: Created page with "Simulator_User_Group {| | Prev 2013.07.09 | Next 2013.07.23 |} == List of Spe…"

[[Simulator_User_Group]]
{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.07.09|Prev 2013.07.09]]
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|}

== List of Speakers ==
{|
|ANSI Soderstrom
|Davido Chrome
|Ima Mechanique
|-
|Kallista Destiny
|Kennylex Luckless
|Kitto Flora
|-
|Lucia Nightfire
|Martinrj Fayray
|Mona Eberhardt
|-
|Motor Loon
|Nalates Urriah
|Qie Niangao
|-
|Rex Cronon
|Simon Linden
|Whirly Fizzle
|-
|}

== Transcript ==
[12:01] Simon Linden<nowiki>: lol ÄlveKatt - no money scams at user group, ok? ;)</nowiki>

[12:02] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: I did start it :-)</nowiki>

[12:02] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Yeah, ban Kenny, not me!</nowiki>

[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: well, we can get started with news .... there was a server update to the main channel this morning</nowiki>

[12:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The forum post is here : </nowiki>http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2013-07-15/td-p/2086673

[12:03] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hello everybody</nowiki>

[12:03] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Hi</nowiki>

[12:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: There should be some small grid-wide improvements there ... we found there were regions re-baking the pathfinding navmesh far more often than needed</nowiki>

[12:03] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Hi Rex.</nowiki>

[12:04] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: They do it automagically now and then?</nowiki>

[12:04] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Tomorrow the 3 RC channels have updates, including the next maintenance fixes</nowiki>

[12:04] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hi davido, mona</nowiki>

[12:05] Simon Linden<nowiki>: They could get into a repeating cycle ... if you hadn't set your viewer to ignore those notifications about the terrain re-bake, it would get pretty annoying</nowiki>

[12:05] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: That must have been a lagger.</nowiki>

[12:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: It was triggered by a very specific land layout ...I think it required multiple parcels, and all the parcel edges had to be underwater (which isn't normally a pathfinding area)</nowiki>

[12:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: unfortunately, if you divide up land into individual islands, that's not uncommon</nowiki>

[12:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: anyway, the fix is on most of the grid now and the updates tomorrow will get it everywhere</nowiki>

[12:06] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Does Pathfinding work underwater now? (He asked hopefully)</nowiki>

[12:07] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I don't think it does, but I'm kinda guessing here</nowiki>

[12:07] Simon Linden<nowiki>: that would be an interesting option</nowiki>

[12:07] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: don't think there were ever plans for water adn air pf</nowiki>

[12:07] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: even though it should have been implemented</nowiki>

[12:08] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: It's just one xtra axis to keep track of. :D</nowiki>

[12:08] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yeah, I know air was definitely off the table ... I guess the Havok engine doesn't support that</nowiki>

[12:08] Simon Linden<nowiki>: speaking of pathfinding, the update tomorrow for the maintenance project will have some fixes for CHARACTER_STAY_WITHIN_PARCEL</nowiki>

[12:09] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: am i mistaken? aren't here games that use havok and have objects/monster flying through 3d mazes?</nowiki>

[12:09] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I think they fake it, Rex</nowiki>

[12:09] Simon Linden<nowiki>: If anyone has recommendations for some creature that might be fun to put around here, let me know ... I'd like to try it out</nowiki>

[12:10] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Havok has some type of volume PF thing... I'm not clear. It was too much for the the team to add in the time frame available...</nowiki>

[12:10] Simon Linden<nowiki>: There may be Rex, but since it's a specific game they may be able to get something to work that's not as extensive or open as SL would be</nowiki>

[12:10] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: make copies of nyx, script them and have them patrol your pacel simon:)</nowiki>

[12:10] Simon Linden<nowiki>: lol, that would work</nowiki>

[12:11] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: parcel*</nowiki>

[12:11] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: I bet that would sell like butter</nowiki>

[12:11] Simon Linden<nowiki>: So I think that's it for news ... Andrew is on vacation today, and Baker had a commitment for this time</nowiki>

[12:11] Simon Linden<nowiki>: So the table is open for topics or questions</nowiki>

[12:11] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: there goes my poking at Andrew into what anti-griefing angles he's looking into</nowiki>

[12:12] Simon Linden<nowiki>: well, even if he was here I'm not sure he'd be able to talk much about them</nowiki>

[12:12] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: is the RenderMaterialsCapability thing something to do with requesting normal and specular maps?</nowiki>

[12:12] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: There seem to be bigger a delay in vehicle controls since a few weeks back.</nowiki>

[12:12] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i have a question. why doesn't llGetParcelPrimOwners work in public sandboxes?</nowiki>

[12:12] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: there needs to be some input requested of the residents to some degree</nowiki>

[12:13] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: otherwise, I'm guessing all that is goign to be done is threshodl adjusting</nowiki>

[12:13] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: intead of anything concrete</nowiki>

[12:13] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Nal - that has the info on the throttle rate for those requests</nowiki>

[12:14] Motor Loon<nowiki>: You'd likely have to deed it to the landgroup Rex to get good results</nowiki>

[12:14] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I think the viewer is currently hard-coded not to do more than 5 per second or something ... this will tell the viewer what that limit is</nowiki>

[12:14] Motor Loon<nowiki>: which probably will be tricky in a public sandbox °?°</nowiki>

[12:14] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: IS it all texture requests or does it just affect objects with the new Materials?</nowiki>

[12:14] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I'm pretty sure it's the new materials requests</nowiki>

[12:15] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: OK, thx</nowiki>

[12:15] Simon Linden<nowiki>: If you're using http texture requests, those don't even go through the simulator so I'm not sure what kind of throttling is there</nowiki>

[12:15] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: imo in all the sandboxes owned by ll there should be nothing to hide eveybody should be able to see who rezzed how many prims</nowiki>

[12:16] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Rex - short answer is I really don't know about llGetParcelPrimOwners() or why it would be weird in sandboxes</nowiki>

[12:16] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Simon, is there any relatively new throttles on vehicle motor updates?</nowiki>

[12:16] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: ok</nowiki>

[12:16] Simon Linden<nowiki>: None that I know of, ÄlveKatt. I haven't heard of any changes in that area</nowiki>

[12:16] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Why was it decided not to roll SSA out to another RC? Was it just because of the notecard bug fix holding that back?</nowiki>

[12:17] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: llGetParcelPrimOwners works same in sandboxes as everywhere: if you're not the landowner, too bad for you (unless the landowner scripted something for you to look at)</nowiki>

[12:17] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: what sucks is llGetParcelPrimOwners() doesn't have an input such as "public return level", "group-set return level", "group-owned return level" or similar, heh</nowiki>

[12:17] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Vehicle motors are run by the physics engine, and we haven't done much there. Andrew was working on the interest list, which is general updates, so something might have changed</nowiki>

[12:18] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Whirly - yes, that notecard bug needed to be fixed. Also, we try to decide before the weekend what to do on Tuesday ... so SSA hadn't lasted the weekend yet</nowiki>

[12:18] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Aah. The visual update delay after you turn has been fixed, the simball community is very pleased. :)</nowiki>

[12:18] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Okay ty</nowiki>

[12:18] Simon Linden<nowiki>: oh, that's good news</nowiki>

[12:19] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: what notecard bug?</nowiki>

[12:19] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: is it eating them notecards?</nowiki>

[12:19] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: On LeTigre, if you tried to save a NC after added an embedded LM, NC, Objects, whatever, it would not save</nowiki>

[12:19] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Fixed "Cannot save any notecards containing attachments" (BUG-3203[c])</nowiki>

[12:20] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: oh</nowiki>

[12:20] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Yeah, it seriously messed with defense play.</nowiki>

[12:21] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I can see that really changing game play</nowiki>

[12:21] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: can't send any envelope bombs</nowiki>

[12:23] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: .</nowiki>

[12:23] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: So, I don't know if the new thing they like to complain about is repsonse time. But there is a very noticeable delay between pressing a button and returning, I am unsure though. When I studied congnitive science we got to use a strobing light thing to see how high the frequenzy had to be before the light looked solid, it wasn't until it reached about 20000 hertz per second that you couldn't see it flash.</nowiki>

[12:24] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: And ping to a sim from overseas never goes below 189.</nowiki>

[12:24] Simon Linden<nowiki>: What do you mean by "returning" in that situation?</nowiki>

[12:25] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Strange typo, I meant between Pressing the button and seeing the Board react, like turn if you pressed right.</nowiki>

[12:25] Object<nowiki>: Hello, Avatar!</nowiki>

[12:25] Simon Linden<nowiki>: ah, right</nowiki>

[12:25] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: I don't know why my brain made me type return instead of turn... Very peculiar. XD</nowiki>

[12:26] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: brain want coffee</nowiki>

[12:26] Simon Linden<nowiki>: well ... the most recent changes have been the interest list work, so that might have changed the time it takes to tell your viewer something happened in-world</nowiki>

[12:27] Simon Linden<nowiki>: otherwise the delay is from the network between your client and the server, the server reacting to that event and the script doing something, it deciding to send an update, and then the network back down to your viewer again</nowiki>

[12:27] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: plus frametime</nowiki>

[12:28] Simon Linden<nowiki>: right, on top off all that the simulator is running each frame with all the other AVs, scripts, physics, rezzing and so on</nowiki>

[12:28] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Then I have a followup question, can complex physics calculations intrude on script time?</nowiki>

[12:28] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Alve - click on thatcube, see how fast it responds for you</nowiki>

[12:29] Simon Linden<nowiki>: ÄlveKatt - it could lower the sim fps, and thus cut time spent on scripts down to the minimum</nowiki>

[12:29] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: My finger has left the button before it changes. But it's too fast too put on a numbered scale.</nowiki>

[12:29] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: one thing I've been seeing on Bluesteel regions is settext on HUDs not updating during moderate region net timing use</nowiki>

[12:29] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: as of the last update</nowiki>

[12:29] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That "Spare Time" in the stats shows you headroom when the sim has run all scripts in the frame</nowiki>

[12:30] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: I suspect that Alve suffers from long network transmission time</nowiki>

[12:30] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: lucia. is there any way to fore text to update?</nowiki>

[12:30] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: force*</nowiki>

[12:30] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That's interesting, Lucy .... I wouldn't expect the changes in that RC to affect HUDs and text</nowiki>

[12:31] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: if its interest list related it could be a factor</nowiki>

[12:31] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Hard to speed up them durn photons.</nowiki>

[12:31] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Kitto, yeah, it's the damn curvature of the earth. We need to drill fiber into the earths mantle.</nowiki>

[12:31] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: quantum entanglement ftw</nowiki>

[12:31] Simon Linden<nowiki>: It could be, but Bluesteel isn't interest list work. Maybe it also occurs in other channels</nowiki>

[12:31] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: nope. u need quantum communications:)</nowiki>

[12:32] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I'd settle for quantum memory</nowiki>

[12:32] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: More like too much network congestion and store .............................. and forward.</nowiki>

[12:32] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Simon, when do SL get quantum entanglement?</nowiki>

[12:33] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Things are pretty well tangled now, I don't think we need more</nowiki>

[12:33] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Davido: Before sim crossings are fixed.</nowiki>

[12:34] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: so what other news is ther</nowiki>

[12:34] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: *there</nowiki>

[12:34] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Let me ask a question ... has anyone noticed changes good or bad with the Server Side Appearance?</nowiki>

[12:34] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yeah, it doesn't like grey skin, lol</nowiki>

[12:34] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Wanted to have a look, but I can't find any populated LeTigre sims.</nowiki>

[12:35] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Try Myanimo, AlveKatt.</nowiki>

[12:35] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Simon - are you asking about Av's texture rezzing?</nowiki>

[12:35] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I didn't think of it earlier, but I could have moved this region there</nowiki>

[12:35] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Myanimo, check.</nowiki>

[12:35] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: It usually has lots of people, each one with huge amounts of laggy scripts.</nowiki>

[12:35] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Yes Kitto - if anyone had noticed changes for better or worse</nowiki>

[12:35] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: For me, SSA is way, way faster than without it... but then, the bake servers are only serving like 10% of the number of sims they'll need to when rolled-out.</nowiki>

[12:36] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: SSA has dedicated servers?</nowiki>

[12:36] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I would hope</nowiki>

[12:36] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: SSA is quick. Seems to be working well.</nowiki>

[12:36] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Right, Qie ... we're watching the load to make sure they don't implode when we roll it out more</nowiki>

[12:36] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Personally, I didn't notice any difference with or without SSA, other than the fact that, once rezzed, people's textures stayed rezzed.</nowiki>

[12:36] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Simon - the last 1 or 2 monts I have noticed much more and longer cloud state on first connecting. Up to maybe 30 secodns.</nowiki>

[12:37] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Today I got instant appearance - but only 1 test.</nowiki>

[12:37] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: It does make the rest of the avatar seem to rez more slowly by comparison. Like attached mesh clothing, etc., comes in much later than the skin, now.</nowiki>

[12:37] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Good - seems to work better for most people, there has been hardly any screaming. Bad - SUN-99 is worrying, also SUN-100 (but no logs or further feedback from them). Also possibly an issue on SSA regions with T-Mobile network - </nowiki>http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/SSB-via-T-Mobile-cellphone/td-p/2086361

[12:37] JIRA-helper<nowiki>: </nowiki>http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SUN-100

<nowiki>[#SUN-100] Massive FPS drops and performance loss on ssa enabled regions - Second Life Bug Tracker</nowiki>

[12:37] JIRA-helper<nowiki>: </nowiki>http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SUN-99

<nowiki>[#SUN-99] Bakefail on SSA regions only. When entering into SSA region, skin and system clothes fail to bake. - Second Life Bug Tracker</nowiki>

[12:37] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: I've had more bake fails in non-SSA regions.</nowiki>

[12:37] Simon Linden<nowiki>: It certainly should be more reliable than the old system</nowiki>

[12:37] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I haven't tested any of the phone-based viewers to see if AVs look any better</nowiki>

[12:38] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: you know what popped in my mind, how LL lets the map servers get full and no tiles update for days, hopefully that doesn't happen with the SSA servers like on a weekend, lol</nowiki>

[12:38] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yeah, definitely ... they need to run reliably for a long time</nowiki>

[12:39] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: what will happen if everybody on the grid wanted to change clothes at same time? would the ssa server crash?</nowiki>

[12:39] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The map servers are actually pretty good, but they get cranky if left running for months</nowiki>

[12:40] Simon Linden<nowiki>: No crashes, Rex ... just no clothes ;)</nowiki>

[12:40] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: grid status reports - SSA server maintenance, enjoy your greyscale for a few hours</nowiki>

[12:40] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: aww, would be funny if you ended up wearing someone else's clothes instead</nowiki>

[12:40] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[12:41] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: IMa, you could end up naked and transgender.</nowiki>

[12:41] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: That can happen actually with rigged mesh under certain circumstances :P (only client side though)</nowiki>

[12:41] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: doesn't worry me, change is as good as a rest</nowiki>

[12:41] Motor Loon<nowiki>: Nothing wrong with the naked part</nowiki>

[12:41] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: :D</nowiki>

[12:41] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I'm guessing a total failure would have you with grey skins but attachments looking normal</nowiki>

[12:41] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: you only have to worry abotu beign naked if you have mesh clothing</nowiki>

[12:41] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: as your skin will load before the rest</nowiki>

[12:41] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: which is what I see now</nowiki>

[12:42] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and many clothign creators don't include alphas, lol</nowiki>

[12:42] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yeah, that's an interesting failure mode</nowiki>

[12:42] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Ah so the alpha layers are a necessity even with a working deformer, for PG sims.</nowiki>

[12:43] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: now we need bake servers for everything else, mesh, rezzed object textures, do it alls, lol</nowiki>

[12:43] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki> whispers: hi</nowiki>

[12:44] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: If this sim has new code for dealing with Av Appearance, I'm not impressed</nowiki>

[12:44] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: although with mesh it'd technically be LOD servers</nowiki>

[12:44] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: I really wish you could have baked layers on mesh. That way maybe you could have normal clothing on Mesh avatars.</nowiki>

[12:44] Motor Loon<nowiki>: SSA is still only on LeTigre Kitto</nowiki>

[12:44] Simon Linden<nowiki>: It's not on this region yet</nowiki>

[12:44] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: OK</nowiki>

[12:45] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Or just define an outer Mesh layer as clothing layer, so you could make a working pants shape to come with the avatar.</nowiki>

[12:45] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: One thing I still haven't understood. Several pieces of furniture have scripts that allow us to adjust the position of our avatar on them (like AVsitter, MLP and other such systems do). With SSA, will those scripts still work?</nowiki>

[12:45] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: ask Masetro to put Morris on aditi on the SSA code before Thursday's OH if it isn't already</nowiki>

[12:45] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Clouds on start would be on Blue Steel</nowiki>

[12:45] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Mona, sure.</nowiki>

[12:46] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Thanks.</nowiki>

[12:46] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That should all work as before, Mona ... your sitting position shouldn't affect the bake layers</nowiki>

[12:46] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki> nods</nowiki>

[12:47] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: now we need new lsl functions to wear/change/take)off clothes:)</nowiki>

[12:47] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That's a good idea, Lucy</nowiki>

[12:47] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: yay</nowiki>

[12:47] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: we need to change groups by outfit</nowiki>

[12:47] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: llPantsOnTheGround()</nowiki>

[12:47] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: haha</nowiki>

[12:47] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: There's supposedly some funkiness in SSA about adjusting avatar height with TPVs (not the scripted adjustments), but I never much cared about that. It was a big deal at some Nyx office hours for a while.</nowiki>

[12:47] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: and llPiggyBank, a Object where stores my money and i can gift it</nowiki>

[12:48] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: or llBoxersOnHeadPencilsInNostrils.</nowiki>

[12:48] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I'd love to see outfits get some attention and improvements ... they're nice but need work</nowiki>

[12:48] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: so i can place a L$ in a L$</nowiki>

[12:48] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Yeah The Z offset feature broken with SSA</nowiki>

[12:48] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Uh-oh - some sim is down, or not connected in snowlands - the Wengen-Smithers Bluff telegraph line has failed.</nowiki>

[12:48] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: The pants layer Mesh is more for the content creation group, though?</nowiki>

[12:48] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: oh</nowiki>

[12:48] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: sorry</nowiki>

[12:48] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: llGiveWedgy()</nowiki>

[12:48] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: does a crash get you a highscore?</nowiki>

[12:48] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: or a 1Down?</nowiki>

[12:48] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: lmao</nowiki>

[12:49] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: just testing</nowiki>

[12:49] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: thats my right as resident</nowiki>

[12:49] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: You need less mone Ansi</nowiki>

[12:49] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: mony</nowiki>

[12:49] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: or a dolly</nowiki>

[12:50] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: The ability to make a pant layer mesh for your avatar should make it possible to wear old school clothing on Mesh avatars.</nowiki>

[12:51] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I think if we got that deep into it, we'd re-design AVs and add more to it</nowiki>

[12:51] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: The drawback being that You are forced to deform the original avatar to fit around the avatar shape you have created.</nowiki>

[12:51] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: If you do that, make gender a Slider rather than a tick box. :)</nowiki>

[12:51] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: optional # arms and legs or tails, lol</nowiki>

[12:52] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and anotomically correct bits</nowiki>

[12:52] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tentacles?</nowiki>

[12:52] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I'd love to see some AVs built with the new materials ... an metallic dragon could be really awesome</nowiki>

[12:52] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and tentacles, yes</nowiki>

[12:52] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I'd like to see a mesh dragon, period</nowiki>

[12:52] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: How to make a Pierson's Puppeteer?</nowiki>

[12:53] Motor Loon<nowiki>: Get it to mainchannel Simon, and I'm sure the grid will be flooded with materials AV's</nowiki>

[12:53] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Materials can be evil on prims :-/</nowiki>

[12:53] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Materials support is on all servers</nowiki>

[12:53] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Oh, someone told me Materials were already turned on grid wide...</nowiki>

[12:53] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: sure are</nowiki>

[12:54] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yes, it's all over the grid now</nowiki>

[12:54] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Can't find controls for it in Firestorm though.</nowiki>

[12:54] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: just that less than half of users have ALM turned on (even though most could)</nowiki>

[12:54] Motor Loon<nowiki>: ah... well, then we just need all the viewers to pick it up then</nowiki>

[12:54] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Its noy released in FS.</nowiki>

[12:54] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: *not</nowiki>

[12:54] Simon Linden<nowiki>: and you really do need a decent graphics card</nowiki>

[12:54] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: *yet</nowiki>

[12:54] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: I can easily see how the LI calculations on materials-endowed prims can make people have second thoughts about using materials in their builds.</nowiki>

[12:54] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: oh, right, and there are TPVs. :p</nowiki>

[12:54] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: Material on Prims is like a anvil on the head</nowiki>

[12:55] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: If you can compile, you can get mats in FS . Build this repo </nowiki>http://hg.phoenixviewer.com/phoenix-firestorm-lgpl-chui/

[12:55] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: I think it needs to have limitations on it. Builders tend to need a good deal of pushing to make optimized models...</nowiki>

[12:55] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Davido, youre in beta testers. Youll be getting a build soon with materials ;)</nowiki>

[12:55] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yes, it switches the land impact calculations to use the new method. That certainly does have it's oddness that you have to be careful with when building</nowiki>

[12:56] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Yay! :D</nowiki>

[12:56] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: oddness, lol</nowiki>

[12:56] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Prims and LI usually lowers the prim count for me.</nowiki>

[12:56] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: careful usage, lol</nowiki>

[12:57] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Simon, last time around, Kenny pointed out some inconsistency in the calculations, though. Is there any chance that the math will be looked at again, so that the results of the calculations will be predictable?</nowiki>

[12:57] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: It is often posible to lower LI, but some time not and it canbe very hard.</nowiki>

[12:57] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: 48 tortured prims, LI is still 31.</nowiki>

[12:57] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Uh, 43, but still.</nowiki>

[12:57] Simon Linden<nowiki>: we have those bugs in our queue ... I don't know the status. I know nobody likes working in that stuff :P</nowiki>

[12:57] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I would say you're SOL to have any LI calc changed at this point</nowiki>

[12:58] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: 43 prims, 31 Li.</nowiki>

[12:58] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: You can take copy of my build, it has material textures inside</nowiki>

[12:59] Martinrj Fayray<nowiki>: I was easily able to get a premium sandbox full (15000 LI) with a single torus after torturing it for a few seconds</nowiki>

[12:59] Simon Linden<nowiki>: it looks like some of that is no-trans</nowiki>

[12:59] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: martinrj. u made one ring to rule them all:)</nowiki>

[12:59] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: I think material is best happen to SL but that LI system has to be simpler to get more folk to use material and convert old builds.</nowiki>

[13:00] Martinrj Fayray<nowiki>: lol Rex</nowiki>

[13:01] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Martin, attach it to a simple cube and make the tortured prim physics shape none. Magic!</nowiki>

[13:01] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Now a house can get like 40 000 LI when apply material, ans if toy do it to convex hull you can not enter it</nowiki>

[13:01] Martinrj Fayray<nowiki>: absolute good point</nowiki>

[13:01] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: i miss only the ducks</nowiki>

[13:02] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: So materials doesn't add LI to things that are allready using the new accounting system?</nowiki>

[13:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: nice ducks</nowiki>

[13:02] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: oh, more ducks</nowiki>

[13:02] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: I can show fun with LI and material</nowiki>

[13:02] Martinrj Fayray<nowiki>: I hope these aren't the ducks that crash a sim when they cross a border?</nowiki>

[13:02] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: PF-ducks?</nowiki>

[13:02] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Those ducks are evil!</nowiki>

[13:02] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: they did it</nowiki>

[13:02] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Ya, those ducks LOL</nowiki>

[13:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: maybe we shouldn't say "ducks" ?</nowiki>

[13:02] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: arrrgh! they're breeding</nowiki>

[13:02] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: quack</nowiki>

[13:03] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: no, say house, love L$, avil or something other</nowiki>

[13:03] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: if there is water near sim border nothing crashes</nowiki>

[13:03] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I just hope CHARACTER_STAY_WITHIN_PARCEL was the sole resolution for that crash bug, heh</nowiki>

[13:03] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: *wasn't</nowiki>

[13:03] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: bah</nowiki>

[13:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I have to get going ... thanks everyone for coming this week</nowiki>

 
[[Simulator_User_Group]]
{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.07.09|Prev 2013.07.09]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.07.23|Next 2013.07.23]]
|}

Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.07.23

2013-08-06T23:13:24Z

Andrew Linden: Created page with "Simulator_User_Group {| | Prev 2013.07.16 | Next 2013.07.30 |} == List of Spe…"

[[Simulator_User_Group]]
{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.07.16|Prev 2013.07.16]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.07.30|Next 2013.07.30]]
|}

== List of Speakers ==
{|
|ANSI Soderstrom
|Davido Chrome
|Ima Mechanique
|-
|Kallista Destiny
|Kennylex Luckless
|Kitto Flora
|-
|Lucia Nightfire
|Martinrj Fayray
|Mona Eberhardt
|-
|Motor Loon
|Nalates Urriah
|Qie Niangao
|-
|Rex Cronon
|Simon Linden
|Whirly Fizzle
|-
|}

== Transcript ==
[12:01] Simon Linden<nowiki>: lol ÄlveKatt - no money scams at user group, ok? ;)</nowiki>

[12:02] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: I did start it :-)</nowiki>

[12:02] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Yeah, ban Kenny, not me!</nowiki>

[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: well, we can get started with news .... there was a server update to the main channel this morning</nowiki>

[12:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The forum post is here : </nowiki>http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2013-07-15/td-p/2086673

[12:03] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hello everybody</nowiki>

[12:03] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Hi</nowiki>

[12:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: There should be some small grid-wide improvements there ... we found there were regions re-baking the pathfinding navmesh far more often than needed</nowiki>

[12:03] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Hi Rex.</nowiki>

[12:04] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: They do it automagically now and then?</nowiki>

[12:04] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Tomorrow the 3 RC channels have updates, including the next maintenance fixes</nowiki>

[12:04] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hi davido, mona</nowiki>

[12:05] Simon Linden<nowiki>: They could get into a repeating cycle ... if you hadn't set your viewer to ignore those notifications about the terrain re-bake, it would get pretty annoying</nowiki>

[12:05] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: That must have been a lagger.</nowiki>

[12:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: It was triggered by a very specific land layout ...I think it required multiple parcels, and all the parcel edges had to be underwater (which isn't normally a pathfinding area)</nowiki>

[12:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: unfortunately, if you divide up land into individual islands, that's not uncommon</nowiki>

[12:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: anyway, the fix is on most of the grid now and the updates tomorrow will get it everywhere</nowiki>

[12:06] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Does Pathfinding work underwater now? (He asked hopefully)</nowiki>

[12:07] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I don't think it does, but I'm kinda guessing here</nowiki>

[12:07] Simon Linden<nowiki>: that would be an interesting option</nowiki>

[12:07] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: don't think there were ever plans for water adn air pf</nowiki>

[12:07] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: even though it should have been implemented</nowiki>

[12:08] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: It's just one xtra axis to keep track of. :D</nowiki>

[12:08] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yeah, I know air was definitely off the table ... I guess the Havok engine doesn't support that</nowiki>

[12:08] Simon Linden<nowiki>: speaking of pathfinding, the update tomorrow for the maintenance project will have some fixes for CHARACTER_STAY_WITHIN_PARCEL</nowiki>

[12:09] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: am i mistaken? aren't here games that use havok and have objects/monster flying through 3d mazes?</nowiki>

[12:09] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I think they fake it, Rex</nowiki>

[12:09] Simon Linden<nowiki>: If anyone has recommendations for some creature that might be fun to put around here, let me know ... I'd like to try it out</nowiki>

[12:10] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Havok has some type of volume PF thing... I'm not clear. It was too much for the the team to add in the time frame available...</nowiki>

[12:10] Simon Linden<nowiki>: There may be Rex, but since it's a specific game they may be able to get something to work that's not as extensive or open as SL would be</nowiki>

[12:10] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: make copies of nyx, script them and have them patrol your pacel simon:)</nowiki>

[12:10] Simon Linden<nowiki>: lol, that would work</nowiki>

[12:11] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: parcel*</nowiki>

[12:11] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: I bet that would sell like butter</nowiki>

[12:11] Simon Linden<nowiki>: So I think that's it for news ... Andrew is on vacation today, and Baker had a commitment for this time</nowiki>

[12:11] Simon Linden<nowiki>: So the table is open for topics or questions</nowiki>

[12:11] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: there goes my poking at Andrew into what anti-griefing angles he's looking into</nowiki>

[12:12] Simon Linden<nowiki>: well, even if he was here I'm not sure he'd be able to talk much about them</nowiki>

[12:12] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: is the RenderMaterialsCapability thing something to do with requesting normal and specular maps?</nowiki>

[12:12] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: There seem to be bigger a delay in vehicle controls since a few weeks back.</nowiki>

[12:12] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i have a question. why doesn't llGetParcelPrimOwners work in public sandboxes?</nowiki>

[12:12] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: there needs to be some input requested of the residents to some degree</nowiki>

[12:13] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: otherwise, I'm guessing all that is goign to be done is threshodl adjusting</nowiki>

[12:13] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: intead of anything concrete</nowiki>

[12:13] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Nal - that has the info on the throttle rate for those requests</nowiki>

[12:14] Motor Loon<nowiki>: You'd likely have to deed it to the landgroup Rex to get good results</nowiki>

[12:14] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I think the viewer is currently hard-coded not to do more than 5 per second or something ... this will tell the viewer what that limit is</nowiki>

[12:14] Motor Loon<nowiki>: which probably will be tricky in a public sandbox °?°</nowiki>

[12:14] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: IS it all texture requests or does it just affect objects with the new Materials?</nowiki>

[12:14] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I'm pretty sure it's the new materials requests</nowiki>

[12:15] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: OK, thx</nowiki>

[12:15] Simon Linden<nowiki>: If you're using http texture requests, those don't even go through the simulator so I'm not sure what kind of throttling is there</nowiki>

[12:15] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: imo in all the sandboxes owned by ll there should be nothing to hide eveybody should be able to see who rezzed how many prims</nowiki>

[12:16] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Rex - short answer is I really don't know about llGetParcelPrimOwners() or why it would be weird in sandboxes</nowiki>

[12:16] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Simon, is there any relatively new throttles on vehicle motor updates?</nowiki>

[12:16] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: ok</nowiki>

[12:16] Simon Linden<nowiki>: None that I know of, ÄlveKatt. I haven't heard of any changes in that area</nowiki>

[12:16] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Why was it decided not to roll SSA out to another RC? Was it just because of the notecard bug fix holding that back?</nowiki>

[12:17] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: llGetParcelPrimOwners works same in sandboxes as everywhere: if you're not the landowner, too bad for you (unless the landowner scripted something for you to look at)</nowiki>

[12:17] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: what sucks is llGetParcelPrimOwners() doesn't have an input such as "public return level", "group-set return level", "group-owned return level" or similar, heh</nowiki>

[12:17] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Vehicle motors are run by the physics engine, and we haven't done much there. Andrew was working on the interest list, which is general updates, so something might have changed</nowiki>

[12:18] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Whirly - yes, that notecard bug needed to be fixed. Also, we try to decide before the weekend what to do on Tuesday ... so SSA hadn't lasted the weekend yet</nowiki>

[12:18] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Aah. The visual update delay after you turn has been fixed, the simball community is very pleased. :)</nowiki>

[12:18] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Okay ty</nowiki>

[12:18] Simon Linden<nowiki>: oh, that's good news</nowiki>

[12:19] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: what notecard bug?</nowiki>

[12:19] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: is it eating them notecards?</nowiki>

[12:19] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: On LeTigre, if you tried to save a NC after added an embedded LM, NC, Objects, whatever, it would not save</nowiki>

[12:19] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Fixed "Cannot save any notecards containing attachments" (BUG-3203[c])</nowiki>

[12:20] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: oh</nowiki>

[12:20] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Yeah, it seriously messed with defense play.</nowiki>

[12:21] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I can see that really changing game play</nowiki>

[12:21] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: can't send any envelope bombs</nowiki>

[12:23] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: .</nowiki>

[12:23] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: So, I don't know if the new thing they like to complain about is repsonse time. But there is a very noticeable delay between pressing a button and returning, I am unsure though. When I studied congnitive science we got to use a strobing light thing to see how high the frequenzy had to be before the light looked solid, it wasn't until it reached about 20000 hertz per second that you couldn't see it flash.</nowiki>

[12:24] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: And ping to a sim from overseas never goes below 189.</nowiki>

[12:24] Simon Linden<nowiki>: What do you mean by "returning" in that situation?</nowiki>

[12:25] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Strange typo, I meant between Pressing the button and seeing the Board react, like turn if you pressed right.</nowiki>

[12:25] Object<nowiki>: Hello, Avatar!</nowiki>

[12:25] Simon Linden<nowiki>: ah, right</nowiki>

[12:25] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: I don't know why my brain made me type return instead of turn... Very peculiar. XD</nowiki>

[12:26] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: brain want coffee</nowiki>

[12:26] Simon Linden<nowiki>: well ... the most recent changes have been the interest list work, so that might have changed the time it takes to tell your viewer something happened in-world</nowiki>

[12:27] Simon Linden<nowiki>: otherwise the delay is from the network between your client and the server, the server reacting to that event and the script doing something, it deciding to send an update, and then the network back down to your viewer again</nowiki>

[12:27] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: plus frametime</nowiki>

[12:28] Simon Linden<nowiki>: right, on top off all that the simulator is running each frame with all the other AVs, scripts, physics, rezzing and so on</nowiki>

[12:28] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Then I have a followup question, can complex physics calculations intrude on script time?</nowiki>

[12:28] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Alve - click on thatcube, see how fast it responds for you</nowiki>

[12:29] Simon Linden<nowiki>: ÄlveKatt - it could lower the sim fps, and thus cut time spent on scripts down to the minimum</nowiki>

[12:29] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: My finger has left the button before it changes. But it's too fast too put on a numbered scale.</nowiki>

[12:29] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: one thing I've been seeing on Bluesteel regions is settext on HUDs not updating during moderate region net timing use</nowiki>

[12:29] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: as of the last update</nowiki>

[12:29] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That "Spare Time" in the stats shows you headroom when the sim has run all scripts in the frame</nowiki>

[12:30] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: I suspect that Alve suffers from long network transmission time</nowiki>

[12:30] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: lucia. is there any way to fore text to update?</nowiki>

[12:30] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: force*</nowiki>

[12:30] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That's interesting, Lucy .... I wouldn't expect the changes in that RC to affect HUDs and text</nowiki>

[12:31] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: if its interest list related it could be a factor</nowiki>

[12:31] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Hard to speed up them durn photons.</nowiki>

[12:31] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Kitto, yeah, it's the damn curvature of the earth. We need to drill fiber into the earths mantle.</nowiki>

[12:31] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: quantum entanglement ftw</nowiki>

[12:31] Simon Linden<nowiki>: It could be, but Bluesteel isn't interest list work. Maybe it also occurs in other channels</nowiki>

[12:31] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: nope. u need quantum communications:)</nowiki>

[12:32] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I'd settle for quantum memory</nowiki>

[12:32] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: More like too much network congestion and store .............................. and forward.</nowiki>

[12:32] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Simon, when do SL get quantum entanglement?</nowiki>

[12:33] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Things are pretty well tangled now, I don't think we need more</nowiki>

[12:33] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Davido: Before sim crossings are fixed.</nowiki>

[12:34] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: so what other news is ther</nowiki>

[12:34] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: *there</nowiki>

[12:34] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Let me ask a question ... has anyone noticed changes good or bad with the Server Side Appearance?</nowiki>

[12:34] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yeah, it doesn't like grey skin, lol</nowiki>

[12:34] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Wanted to have a look, but I can't find any populated LeTigre sims.</nowiki>

[12:35] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Try Myanimo, AlveKatt.</nowiki>

[12:35] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Simon - are you asking about Av's texture rezzing?</nowiki>

[12:35] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I didn't think of it earlier, but I could have moved this region there</nowiki>

[12:35] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Myanimo, check.</nowiki>

[12:35] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: It usually has lots of people, each one with huge amounts of laggy scripts.</nowiki>

[12:35] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Yes Kitto - if anyone had noticed changes for better or worse</nowiki>

[12:35] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: For me, SSA is way, way faster than without it... but then, the bake servers are only serving like 10% of the number of sims they'll need to when rolled-out.</nowiki>

[12:36] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: SSA has dedicated servers?</nowiki>

[12:36] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I would hope</nowiki>

[12:36] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: SSA is quick. Seems to be working well.</nowiki>

[12:36] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Right, Qie ... we're watching the load to make sure they don't implode when we roll it out more</nowiki>

[12:36] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Personally, I didn't notice any difference with or without SSA, other than the fact that, once rezzed, people's textures stayed rezzed.</nowiki>

[12:36] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Simon - the last 1 or 2 monts I have noticed much more and longer cloud state on first connecting. Up to maybe 30 secodns.</nowiki>

[12:37] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Today I got instant appearance - but only 1 test.</nowiki>

[12:37] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: It does make the rest of the avatar seem to rez more slowly by comparison. Like attached mesh clothing, etc., comes in much later than the skin, now.</nowiki>

[12:37] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Good - seems to work better for most people, there has been hardly any screaming. Bad - SUN-99 is worrying, also SUN-100 (but no logs or further feedback from them). Also possibly an issue on SSA regions with T-Mobile network - </nowiki>http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/SSB-via-T-Mobile-cellphone/td-p/2086361

[12:37] JIRA-helper<nowiki>: </nowiki>http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SUN-100

<nowiki>[#SUN-100] Massive FPS drops and performance loss on ssa enabled regions - Second Life Bug Tracker</nowiki>

[12:37] JIRA-helper<nowiki>: </nowiki>http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SUN-99

<nowiki>[#SUN-99] Bakefail on SSA regions only. When entering into SSA region, skin and system clothes fail to bake. - Second Life Bug Tracker</nowiki>

[12:37] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: I've had more bake fails in non-SSA regions.</nowiki>

[12:37] Simon Linden<nowiki>: It certainly should be more reliable than the old system</nowiki>

[12:37] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I haven't tested any of the phone-based viewers to see if AVs look any better</nowiki>

[12:38] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: you know what popped in my mind, how LL lets the map servers get full and no tiles update for days, hopefully that doesn't happen with the SSA servers like on a weekend, lol</nowiki>

[12:38] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yeah, definitely ... they need to run reliably for a long time</nowiki>

[12:39] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: what will happen if everybody on the grid wanted to change clothes at same time? would the ssa server crash?</nowiki>

[12:39] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The map servers are actually pretty good, but they get cranky if left running for months</nowiki>

[12:40] Simon Linden<nowiki>: No crashes, Rex ... just no clothes ;)</nowiki>

[12:40] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: grid status reports - SSA server maintenance, enjoy your greyscale for a few hours</nowiki>

[12:40] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: aww, would be funny if you ended up wearing someone else's clothes instead</nowiki>

[12:40] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[12:41] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: IMa, you could end up naked and transgender.</nowiki>

[12:41] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: That can happen actually with rigged mesh under certain circumstances :P (only client side though)</nowiki>

[12:41] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: doesn't worry me, change is as good as a rest</nowiki>

[12:41] Motor Loon<nowiki>: Nothing wrong with the naked part</nowiki>

[12:41] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: :D</nowiki>

[12:41] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I'm guessing a total failure would have you with grey skins but attachments looking normal</nowiki>

[12:41] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: you only have to worry abotu beign naked if you have mesh clothing</nowiki>

[12:41] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: as your skin will load before the rest</nowiki>

[12:41] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: which is what I see now</nowiki>

[12:42] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and many clothign creators don't include alphas, lol</nowiki>

[12:42] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yeah, that's an interesting failure mode</nowiki>

[12:42] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Ah so the alpha layers are a necessity even with a working deformer, for PG sims.</nowiki>

[12:43] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: now we need bake servers for everything else, mesh, rezzed object textures, do it alls, lol</nowiki>

[12:43] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki> whispers: hi</nowiki>

[12:44] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: If this sim has new code for dealing with Av Appearance, I'm not impressed</nowiki>

[12:44] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: although with mesh it'd technically be LOD servers</nowiki>

[12:44] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: I really wish you could have baked layers on mesh. That way maybe you could have normal clothing on Mesh avatars.</nowiki>

[12:44] Motor Loon<nowiki>: SSA is still only on LeTigre Kitto</nowiki>

[12:44] Simon Linden<nowiki>: It's not on this region yet</nowiki>

[12:44] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: OK</nowiki>

[12:45] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Or just define an outer Mesh layer as clothing layer, so you could make a working pants shape to come with the avatar.</nowiki>

[12:45] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: One thing I still haven't understood. Several pieces of furniture have scripts that allow us to adjust the position of our avatar on them (like AVsitter, MLP and other such systems do). With SSA, will those scripts still work?</nowiki>

[12:45] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: ask Masetro to put Morris on aditi on the SSA code before Thursday's OH if it isn't already</nowiki>

[12:45] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Clouds on start would be on Blue Steel</nowiki>

[12:45] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Mona, sure.</nowiki>

[12:46] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Thanks.</nowiki>

[12:46] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That should all work as before, Mona ... your sitting position shouldn't affect the bake layers</nowiki>

[12:46] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki> nods</nowiki>

[12:47] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: now we need new lsl functions to wear/change/take)off clothes:)</nowiki>

[12:47] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That's a good idea, Lucy</nowiki>

[12:47] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: yay</nowiki>

[12:47] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: we need to change groups by outfit</nowiki>

[12:47] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: llPantsOnTheGround()</nowiki>

[12:47] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: haha</nowiki>

[12:47] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: There's supposedly some funkiness in SSA about adjusting avatar height with TPVs (not the scripted adjustments), but I never much cared about that. It was a big deal at some Nyx office hours for a while.</nowiki>

[12:47] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: and llPiggyBank, a Object where stores my money and i can gift it</nowiki>

[12:48] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: or llBoxersOnHeadPencilsInNostrils.</nowiki>

[12:48] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I'd love to see outfits get some attention and improvements ... they're nice but need work</nowiki>

[12:48] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: so i can place a L$ in a L$</nowiki>

[12:48] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Yeah The Z offset feature broken with SSA</nowiki>

[12:48] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Uh-oh - some sim is down, or not connected in snowlands - the Wengen-Smithers Bluff telegraph line has failed.</nowiki>

[12:48] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: The pants layer Mesh is more for the content creation group, though?</nowiki>

[12:48] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: oh</nowiki>

[12:48] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: sorry</nowiki>

[12:48] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: llGiveWedgy()</nowiki>

[12:48] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: does a crash get you a highscore?</nowiki>

[12:48] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: or a 1Down?</nowiki>

[12:48] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: lmao</nowiki>

[12:49] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: just testing</nowiki>

[12:49] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: thats my right as resident</nowiki>

[12:49] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: You need less mone Ansi</nowiki>

[12:49] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: mony</nowiki>

[12:49] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: or a dolly</nowiki>

[12:50] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: The ability to make a pant layer mesh for your avatar should make it possible to wear old school clothing on Mesh avatars.</nowiki>

[12:51] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I think if we got that deep into it, we'd re-design AVs and add more to it</nowiki>

[12:51] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: The drawback being that You are forced to deform the original avatar to fit around the avatar shape you have created.</nowiki>

[12:51] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: If you do that, make gender a Slider rather than a tick box. :)</nowiki>

[12:51] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: optional # arms and legs or tails, lol</nowiki>

[12:52] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and anotomically correct bits</nowiki>

[12:52] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tentacles?</nowiki>

[12:52] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I'd love to see some AVs built with the new materials ... an metallic dragon could be really awesome</nowiki>

[12:52] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and tentacles, yes</nowiki>

[12:52] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I'd like to see a mesh dragon, period</nowiki>

[12:52] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: How to make a Pierson's Puppeteer?</nowiki>

[12:53] Motor Loon<nowiki>: Get it to mainchannel Simon, and I'm sure the grid will be flooded with materials AV's</nowiki>

[12:53] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Materials can be evil on prims :-/</nowiki>

[12:53] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Materials support is on all servers</nowiki>

[12:53] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Oh, someone told me Materials were already turned on grid wide...</nowiki>

[12:53] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: sure are</nowiki>

[12:54] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yes, it's all over the grid now</nowiki>

[12:54] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Can't find controls for it in Firestorm though.</nowiki>

[12:54] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: just that less than half of users have ALM turned on (even though most could)</nowiki>

[12:54] Motor Loon<nowiki>: ah... well, then we just need all the viewers to pick it up then</nowiki>

[12:54] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Its noy released in FS.</nowiki>

[12:54] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: *not</nowiki>

[12:54] Simon Linden<nowiki>: and you really do need a decent graphics card</nowiki>

[12:54] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: *yet</nowiki>

[12:54] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: I can easily see how the LI calculations on materials-endowed prims can make people have second thoughts about using materials in their builds.</nowiki>

[12:54] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: oh, right, and there are TPVs. :p</nowiki>

[12:54] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: Material on Prims is like a anvil on the head</nowiki>

[12:55] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: If you can compile, you can get mats in FS . Build this repo </nowiki>http://hg.phoenixviewer.com/phoenix-firestorm-lgpl-chui/

[12:55] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: I think it needs to have limitations on it. Builders tend to need a good deal of pushing to make optimized models...</nowiki>

[12:55] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Davido, youre in beta testers. Youll be getting a build soon with materials ;)</nowiki>

[12:55] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yes, it switches the land impact calculations to use the new method. That certainly does have it's oddness that you have to be careful with when building</nowiki>

[12:56] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Yay! :D</nowiki>

[12:56] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: oddness, lol</nowiki>

[12:56] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Prims and LI usually lowers the prim count for me.</nowiki>

[12:56] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: careful usage, lol</nowiki>

[12:57] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Simon, last time around, Kenny pointed out some inconsistency in the calculations, though. Is there any chance that the math will be looked at again, so that the results of the calculations will be predictable?</nowiki>

[12:57] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: It is often posible to lower LI, but some time not and it canbe very hard.</nowiki>

[12:57] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: 48 tortured prims, LI is still 31.</nowiki>

[12:57] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Uh, 43, but still.</nowiki>

[12:57] Simon Linden<nowiki>: we have those bugs in our queue ... I don't know the status. I know nobody likes working in that stuff :P</nowiki>

[12:57] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I would say you're SOL to have any LI calc changed at this point</nowiki>

[12:58] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: 43 prims, 31 Li.</nowiki>

[12:58] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: You can take copy of my build, it has material textures inside</nowiki>

[12:59] Martinrj Fayray<nowiki>: I was easily able to get a premium sandbox full (15000 LI) with a single torus after torturing it for a few seconds</nowiki>

[12:59] Simon Linden<nowiki>: it looks like some of that is no-trans</nowiki>

[12:59] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: martinrj. u made one ring to rule them all:)</nowiki>

[12:59] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: I think material is best happen to SL but that LI system has to be simpler to get more folk to use material and convert old builds.</nowiki>

[13:00] Martinrj Fayray<nowiki>: lol Rex</nowiki>

[13:01] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Martin, attach it to a simple cube and make the tortured prim physics shape none. Magic!</nowiki>

[13:01] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Now a house can get like 40 000 LI when apply material, ans if toy do it to convex hull you can not enter it</nowiki>

[13:01] Martinrj Fayray<nowiki>: absolute good point</nowiki>

[13:01] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: i miss only the ducks</nowiki>

[13:02] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: So materials doesn't add LI to things that are allready using the new accounting system?</nowiki>

[13:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: nice ducks</nowiki>

[13:02] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: oh, more ducks</nowiki>

[13:02] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: I can show fun with LI and material</nowiki>

[13:02] Martinrj Fayray<nowiki>: I hope these aren't the ducks that crash a sim when they cross a border?</nowiki>

[13:02] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: PF-ducks?</nowiki>

[13:02] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Those ducks are evil!</nowiki>

[13:02] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: they did it</nowiki>

[13:02] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Ya, those ducks LOL</nowiki>

[13:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: maybe we shouldn't say "ducks" ?</nowiki>

[13:02] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: arrrgh! they're breeding</nowiki>

[13:02] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: quack</nowiki>

[13:03] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: no, say house, love L$, avil or something other</nowiki>

[13:03] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: if there is water near sim border nothing crashes</nowiki>

[13:03] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I just hope CHARACTER_STAY_WITHIN_PARCEL was the sole resolution for that crash bug, heh</nowiki>

[13:03] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: *wasn't</nowiki>

[13:03] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: bah</nowiki>

[13:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I have to get going ... thanks everyone for coming this week</nowiki>

 
[[Simulator_User_Group]]
{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.07.16|Prev 2013.07.16]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.07.30|Next 2013.07.30]]
|}

Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.07.30

2013-08-06T23:09:25Z

Andrew Linden: Created page with "Simulator_User_Group {| | Prev 2013.07.23 | Next 2013.08.06 |} == List of Spe…"

[[Simulator_User_Group]]
{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.07.23|Prev 2013.07.23]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.08.06|Next 2013.08.06]]
|}

== List of Speakers ==
{|
|Andrew Linden
|bob Iwashi
|Davido Chrome
|-
|DrFran Babcock
|Ima Mechanique
|Kelly Linden
|-
|Kennylex Luckless
|KopilosAlt Afterthought
|Lucia Nightfire
|-
|Mona Eberhardt
|Nalates Urriah
|Petr Topaz
|-
|Qie Niangao
|Rex Cronon
|Simon Linden
|-
|Skills Hak
|Talarus Luan
|TankMaster Finesmith
|-
|Tiberious Neruda
|Tillie Ariantho
|Whirly Fizzle
|-
|Yuzuru Jewell
|}

== Transcript ==
[12:00] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Hi Andrew and Kelly.</nowiki>

[12:00] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Hello, Andrew.</nowiki>

[12:00] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Hello</nowiki>

[12:00] Meeter<nowiki>: Welcome to the Server User Group</nowiki>

[12:01] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Where is Baker?</nowiki>

[12:01] bob Iwashi<nowiki>: greetings</nowiki>

[12:01] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Hello, Kelly.</nowiki>

[12:01] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: heya andrew</nowiki>

[12:01] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hi everybody</nowiki>

[12:02] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Hi Rex.</nowiki>

[12:02] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hi mona</nowiki>

[12:02] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Ok news... I'll let Simon and Kelly start</nowiki>

[12:02] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: heya baker!</nowiki>

[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Hi everyone ... I can start with the server release news for the week</nowiki>

[12:02] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Baker has evolved backwards.</nowiki>

[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The forum post is here: </nowiki>http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2013-07-29/td-p/2103905

[12:02] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Oooh, who brought a pet dinosaur?</nowiki>

[12:02] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Whoa. That's quite a change, Baker. Reverse evolution?</nowiki>

[12:03] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hi andrew, simon, baker kelly</nowiki>

[12:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: We rolled the maintenance release that was on BlueSteel to the main channel this morning</nowiki>

[12:03] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: i think the term you are looking for is 'devolved', kennylex</nowiki>

[12:03] DrFran Babcock<nowiki>: disturbingly close. I beleive that's a carnivore</nowiki>

[12:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Tomorrow there will be updates on the RC channels ... Magnum and LeTigre will remain the Server Side Appearance work</nowiki>

[12:04] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Ugh, stop the plinging!</nowiki>

[12:04] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: And it seems like Baker wants to resurrect LulzSec, judging by his choice of attire. :P</nowiki>

[12:04] Simon Linden<nowiki>: We're not sure what will go onto BlueSteel as we found a bug in the code we were planning on rolling out. That was fixed this morning (yay Kelly!) but we have to get it through QA by the end of the day</nowiki>

[12:04] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: btw. for all those late or that can't make it u can follow group meeting live here: </nowiki>http://rcds.nfshost.com/ques_view_chatLog.php?queOwner=llsl:Rex<nowiki>+Cronon&queName=chatLog&pg=1</nowiki>

[12:05] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: just ell me what aditi region has teh listen fix, heh</nowiki>

[12:05] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: *tell</nowiki>

[12:05] Simon Linden<nowiki>: that's it for release news ... does anyone else have any?</nowiki>

[12:05] Tillie Ariantho<nowiki>: Rex: is this a permanent service? :P</nowiki>

[12:05] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: what is the listen bug #?</nowiki>

[12:06] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: it can be:)</nowiki>

[12:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: it's MAINT-2887, Andrew</nowiki>

[12:06] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: BUG-3291 SCR-43</nowiki>

[12:06] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I was looking for that region on aditi today, with no luck, heh</nowiki>

[12:08] Simon Linden<nowiki>: try CCMTEST23, Lucy. I'm not sure what the access is set to there</nowiki>

[12:08] Simon Linden<nowiki>: ... so you might not get in</nowiki>

[12:08] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Lucia, the two regions that have that bug fix on aditi are called: CCMTEST23 and CCMTEST29</nowiki>

[12:08] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: are those publicly available? Dunno</nowiki>

[12:08] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I'll find out</nowiki>

[12:08] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: hrm... CCMTEST23 appears to be on the mainland estate</nowiki>

[12:08] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I wonder what will break with that fix</nowiki>

[12:09] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: 29 is on some private estate</nowiki>

[12:10] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Rex, I like the liveblog transcripts... the timestamps have sub-second info</nowiki>

[12:10] CHAOS - v1.80 shouts<nowiki>: KopilosAlt Afterthought has entered the region at location: Denby (207,41,35)</nowiki>

[12:10] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: :)</nowiki>

[12:10] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: maybe I'll modify the transcript hilight script to handle extra resolution in the timestamp, and then just cut and paste from the liveblog</nowiki>

[12:11] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: although... dunno if I could find bookmark a link to the liveblog that will last multiple weeks...</nowiki>

[12:12] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Well, my news (what little there is of it) is that I really think I'm about to wrap up this interestlist project finally, for real this time</nowiki>

[12:12] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: for now anyway :P</nowiki>

[12:12] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I've been fixing minor bugs and trying to produce some stats/graphs that show improvements</nowiki>

[12:12] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but the final graphs are waiting for some viewer changes</nowiki>

[12:13] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: as to the blocking viewer changes... there was a performance regression we were seeing during scene load which was blocking release of that code</nowiki>

[12:13] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Andrew, the problem with people and objects coming into view not being in the right position is currently fixed. So please don't break that again? :D</nowiki>

[12:13] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I have an interest list bug for you, Andrew ... we can talk after the user group</nowiki>

[12:13] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but just today I think we figured it out... will be testing today</nowiki>

[12:13] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ok Simon</nowiki>

[12:13] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: in thoeory should work jsut fine. in practice there are some restrictions. i think u can't contact an outside server faster thena once a sec. it might need a buffer</nowiki>

[12:14] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: hey Berry!</nowiki>

[12:14] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: will animations sync correctly with these updates?</nowiki>

[12:14] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: I mean, moving objects. Like avatars on vehicles.</nowiki>

[12:14] Simon Linden<nowiki>: We haven't done anything to change animation syncing ... I think it's all add-hoc as before</nowiki>

[12:14] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: so that is all of my news. I'll probably go on general maintenance, with a focus on anti-grief, anti-crash work, for a few weeks after this</nowiki>

[12:14] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: attempts to teleport to either of those regions results in a message "Unable to find teleport destination"</nowiki>

[12:14] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: ok</nowiki>

[12:15] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: which may just be due to group onyl access, heh</nowiki>

[12:15] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Lucy - you're on aditi now?</nowiki>

[12:15] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I have an account on it yes</nowiki>

[12:15] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ok Lucia, I'll try to check access to CCMTEST23 after this meeting</nowiki>

[12:15] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: and will IM you after looking at it</nowiki>

[12:15] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: or just resurrect my region, Querqua on aditi again with the code, heh</nowiki>

[12:15] Andrew Linden<nowiki> writes a note to himself...</nowiki>

[12:16] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Youre about to get a JIRA filed for the animation syncing being worse after interest list changes. They already made a demo video showing the difference </nowiki>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6BmL8dZoWg<nowiki>&feature=youtu.be</nowiki>

[12:17] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: hrm... ok whirly, so the animations are out of sync when the avatars show up in view?</nowiki>

[12:17] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Looked like it got messed up while in impostor mode?</nowiki>

[12:17] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Yes</nowiki>

[12:18] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Ok, I might be able to fix that.</nowiki>

[12:18] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: When the bug is filed someone send me the number</nowiki>

[12:18] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: ok</nowiki>

[12:19] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: I don't think you get away from that anything that moves needs updates even when out of view.</nowiki>

[12:19] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: that's all the news I've got, any more? or shall we move on to open table?</nowiki>

[12:19] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Have you had a chance to look at the llSetKeyframedMotion-stopping-on-sim-restart issue?</nowiki>

[12:20] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: No. But my schedule may be opening up a bit.</nowiki>

[12:20] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: kk</nowiki>

[12:21] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ok I guess the table is open</nowiki>

[12:21] Tillie Ariantho<nowiki>: ETA for LSL commands for light projectors? :P</nowiki>

[12:21] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: something weird happened to me starting on thursday. now i sok</nowiki>

[12:22] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Also for Materials texture settings</nowiki>

[12:22] Tillie Ariantho<nowiki>: Yup, for those, too.</nowiki>

[12:22] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Yes, both those.</nowiki>

[12:23] Andrew Linden<nowiki> does not know the ETA of those. Kelly might know.</nowiki>

[12:23] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: in good news, the next FS release will have materials! :P (and modified CHUI, and FmodEX, and maybe something else LL has yet to release)</nowiki>

[12:23] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: when can we expect that release?</nowiki>

[12:23] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: next month probably</nowiki>

[12:23] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: u can read all about my weird experience here: </nowiki>http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/I-stay-logged-in-for-only-a-few-seconds-L-gone/m-p/2108813/highlight/false<nowiki>#M11335</nowiki>

[12:23] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: There is no ETA for either of those LSL features.</nowiki>

[12:24] KopilosAlt Afterthought<nowiki>: will FS have materials with next release?</nowiki>

[12:24] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: In a couple of days then</nowiki>

[12:24] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: still working on bugs and waiting for some fixes from LL</nowiki>

[12:24] KopilosAlt Afterthought<nowiki>: ohh :D</nowiki>

[12:24] KopilosAlt Afterthought<nowiki>: sorry nvm</nowiki>

[12:24] KopilosAlt Afterthought<nowiki>: wonderful :D</nowiki>

[12:24] Tillie Ariantho<nowiki>: Kelly: ;-( Even someone working on those?</nowiki>

[12:24] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: There is no ETA on them Tillie.</nowiki>

[12:24] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: In lieu of those, and because I skipped asking last week: Any prospect of learning more about eXperience Permissions?</nowiki>

[12:24] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: wondering if anybody has any idea what was going on</nowiki>

[12:24] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Nothing yet there, Qie</nowiki>

[12:25] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: If the table is open. Can I nag a bit about fixing the gimbal lock in vehicle mouselook mode?</nowiki>

[12:25] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Thanks, Simon. That should hold me a couple weeks. :p</nowiki>

[12:25] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Sure Davido, nag away.</nowiki>

[12:26] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: When I did re-log Baker did look like a meatball, I had to fly to a parcel with Avatar Privacy to fix it, is it possible that SL viewer can get a quick derender to force an avatar update in same way?</nowiki>

[12:26] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Would you consider fixing that, or giving us an alternative mouslook function where the rotations are local to the vehicle?</nowiki>

[12:26] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Rex - that sounds like something really bad with the network connection, as nothing was getting updated and your ping times were horrible</nowiki>

[12:26] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-973<nowiki> (CAMERA_DECOUPLED flag for mouselook causes Gimbal lock )</nowiki>

[12:27] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: "Unactionable" Ouch</nowiki>

[12:27] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: If you change your active group tag, that may fix iy Kennylex</nowiki>

[12:27] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: *it</nowiki>

[12:27] Skills Hak<nowiki>: sup</nowiki>

[12:27] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: What does that mean?</nowiki>

[12:27] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Davido, it probably isn't "fixable" except for providing a different mode that is completely local to the vehicle</nowiki>

[12:28] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: that is, a mouselook that does not care about the world vertical</nowiki>

[12:28] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Ah. Can't you redefine the bug report as a feature request then?</nowiki>

[12:28] Skills Hak<nowiki>: nice bling chica</nowiki>

[12:29] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Is there some kind of special access required for reading BUG reports in JIRA? Kinda hard to avoid reporting the same bug more than once if you can't see what has already been reported.</nowiki>

[12:29] KopilosAlt Afterthought<nowiki>: hey skills</nowiki>

[12:29] Tillie Ariantho<nowiki>: Where we are at it, what's the proper way to do a feature request now? There's only category BUG in the jira...</nowiki>

[12:29] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Buttuns is funnier than change groups to fix something :-)</nowiki>

[12:30] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Tillie, just put feature request in the report title.</nowiki>

[12:30] Skills Hak<nowiki>: 'lo</nowiki>

[12:30] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: yes, talarus</nowiki>

[12:30] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: When you set the title as [Feature request] someone often comes and closes it as misfiled.</nowiki>

[12:30] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yes, we look at those twice a week Tillie</nowiki>

[12:30] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is half over</nowiki>

[12:31] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The bug system really needs a different "closed" status for some things ... something that means "Right, got it"</nowiki>

[12:31] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Feature Requests get closed pretty quick as they are added to an internal Linden list that someone keeps.</nowiki>

[12:31] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Add it? :P</nowiki>

[12:31] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: yeah, 'reeased' is a odd way to close soemthing thats not even started to been worked on</nowiki>

[12:32] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: 'released'*</nowiki>

[12:32] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: So I take it there is special access, but nothing us peons can have? :P</nowiki>

[12:32] Tillie Ariantho<nowiki>: Everything is odd with the JIRA.</nowiki>

[12:32] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Ill not even mention how daft the create an issue form is in BUG with the mismatched headings ;)</nowiki>

[12:32] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: heh</nowiki>

[12:32] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: the standard user doesnt have access to bug jiras, correcct</nowiki>

[12:32] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-1010

[12:32] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: nope</nowiki>

[12:32] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: dont worry about filing a dup, theres enough eyes int he jira to catch them and mark them as such</nowiki>

[12:32] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: I filed a BUG report about that. XD</nowiki>

[12:33] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: can't none of us actually see anything someone else sent in</nowiki>

[12:33] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Some apparently do.</nowiki>

[12:33] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Yeah but its annoying for people. They take time to file a good report only to have it closed as a dupe. They can't search to see if its filed already now</nowiki>

[12:33] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Exactly.</nowiki>

[12:33] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: not even read-only. Just another reason to avoid the jira like a plague, far as I'm concerned</nowiki>

[12:33] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: The vote watch system was good for that.</nowiki>

[12:33] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: those r "special" eyes. right tankmaster:)</nowiki>

[12:34] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: vote system got alt abbused :P</nowiki>

[12:34] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: I mean, I appreciate that some people have access.. Whirly, for example, helped me with a second-monitor issue.</nowiki>

[12:34] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Now that's process engineering: "Don't worry 'bout duplicates because..." for any possible completion of that sentence.</nowiki>

[12:35] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: it is possible to write 2 jiras, one here for ll and a clone of it for everybody to see, comment and vote on it:)</nowiki>

[12:35] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yeah, happens on slu sometimes, lol</nowiki>

[12:36] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: or cloan it to FS's jira where everyone can see it :P</nowiki>

[12:36] Simon Linden<nowiki>: fwiw the setup of jira and those policies were made by others, so you're kinda preaching to the choir here. That bug about the headers is still open internally too</nowiki>

[12:36] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Oh, understood, Simon</nowiki>

[12:36] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Some people tried that but they all fizled out. There was the shadow JIRA on SLU for a while.</nowiki>

[12:36] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Yeah, understood lol</nowiki>

[12:37] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Whirly, you have special access on Jira, right?</nowiki>

[12:37] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: yeah</nowiki>

[12:37] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: as do I and some other TPV devs/support</nowiki>

[12:37] Skills Hak<nowiki>: do wot m8</nowiki>

[12:38] Tillie Ariantho<nowiki>: Sure they fizzled out... some JIRA entires are way older than most residents, so anyone trying to keep a repo will be outlived by the bug entries. :P</nowiki>

[12:38] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Yeah but you know truthfully Im embarrassed by that. I don't like having it when others dont. Its not a nice feeling.</nowiki>

[12:38] Tillie Ariantho<nowiki>: entries</nowiki>

[12:38] Skills Hak<nowiki>: hey has there been word about BUG-3291?</nowiki>

[12:38] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ah, how are those rights granted? who selects people for special access?</nowiki>

[12:38] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i think oz linden does</nowiki>

[12:38] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ok, just curious</nowiki>

[12:38] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Whirly, you are the Jira Goddess. It's as it should be.</nowiki>

[12:38] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: You have to be an active contributor to LL with a CA on file or part of a TPV team</nowiki>

[12:38] Skills Hak<nowiki>: FIC</nowiki>

[12:39] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: lol skills</nowiki>

[12:39] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Anumation sync issue filed & OMG awesome title hahahaha </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-3456<nowiki> (Pixel Pussies aren't synced)</nowiki>

[12:39] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki> dies</nowiki>

[12:39] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: andrew: </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-3455

[12:39] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Whirly: No. I'm none of those things and can see some BUG reports (not as much as you, I'm sure, but some)</nowiki>

[12:39] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: perhaps FIC, although I wonder how much fetting goes on these days</nowiki>

[12:39] Simon Linden<nowiki>: BUG-3291 (llListen's location) is fixed in the code we hope is going to RC tomorrow</nowiki>

[12:39] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: It may be a holdover from the STORM type, some of use were able to move issues there</nowiki>

[12:39] Skills Hak<nowiki>: probably not as much any more :p</nowiki>

[12:40] Skills Hak<nowiki>: i got here a little bit late, have you guys been discussing [MAINT-2887] ? llListen in linked objects is listening at root instead of linked object local position.</nowiki>

[12:41] Skills Hak<nowiki>: i wonder if that was intentional or if it will be fixed</nowiki>

[12:41] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: a while ago, skillz</nowiki>

[12:41] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yes, Mone ... that's fixed</nowiki>

[12:41] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: skills go here: </nowiki>http://rcds.nfshost.com/ques_view_chatLog.php?queOwner=llsl:Rex<nowiki>+Cronon&queName=chatLog&pg=1</nowiki>

[12:41] Skills Hak<nowiki>: sweet!</nowiki>

[12:41] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: yes, Skills. The bug is fixed on CCMTEST23 region on aditi, but that region is not currently accessible.</nowiki>

[12:41] Simon Linden<nowiki>: we're having a last-minute fix for another issue, but hopefully that will go into the RC channel tomorrow</nowiki>

[12:41] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: minor detail</nowiki>

[12:42] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'm going to examine the access rules for that region after this meeting, or else bring up another region that is accessible.</nowiki>

[12:42] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: "Gimbal Lock when using CTRL-SHIFT to manipulate physical object " got closed as expected behaviour. Which I find a bit strangem because being able to manipulate physical objects like that was a big part in that old video that showcased the experience tools.</nowiki>

[12:42] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-1009

[12:42] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I just went there Andrew, it appears to be open and accessible</nowiki>

[12:42] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Well, I contribute a significant sum to LL every month, but I guess that doesn't count for much. <.<</nowiki>

[12:43] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: BTW I think Feted Inner Core was a typo, it should be FetId, as in we're all a little old and moldy around the edges</nowiki>

[12:43] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: A question I held off on earlier: Just curious, but what *is* being worked on currently with respect to LSL/scripting?</nowiki>

[12:43] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Definitely not a type Ima.</nowiki>

[12:44] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: Talaurus, Oz is doing some server stuff toward having a cap for syntax, when he has time...</nowiki>

[12:44] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Someone already asked about how you will be able to get experience keys, right?</nowiki>

[12:44] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yes, that hasn't been publicized yet</nowiki>

[12:44] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Ah.</nowiki>

[12:45] DrFran Babcock<nowiki>: Noooooo!</nowiki>

[12:45] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: So the syntax highlighting gets updated without having a viewer update?</nowiki>

[12:45] Simon Linden<nowiki>: When it's ready I'm sure the product people will want to introduce it as a new feature and handle the announcement.</nowiki>

[12:45] oMiluo<nowiki>: , ~~</nowiki>

[12:45] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Talarus - yes, I believe that's the intention</nowiki>

[12:45] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: Talaurs, yes</nowiki>

[12:46] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: (btw, it was "fetid inner core".. not "feted", as there was nothing to celebrate about it) <.<</nowiki>

[12:46] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Good. It has been talked about for a long time. Glad to see it finally come to fruition. :)</nowiki>

[12:47] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Feted Inner Core is just a paranoid conspiracy theory - move along, nothing to see here... :)</nowiki>

[12:47] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: lol, been working/waiting on it over 18 months now ;-)</nowiki>

[12:47] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Syntax highlighting, does that mean the script window will highlight ending parenthesis and brackets and so on?</nowiki>

[12:48] Skills Hak<nowiki>: that would be sweet</nowiki>

[12:48] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: davido, not yet, if ever. It means the current highlighting file will be downloaed per sim, so you always have an accurate list of keywords for that sim</nowiki>

[12:48] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: No, it means that the list of llFoo() function names and other keywords may highlight correctly without a viewer update -- the config file for the highlighting would be supplied via a web service.</nowiki>

[12:48] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I think the brackets and parenthesis highlighting would be outside of that ... that logic wouldn't need a live update</nowiki>

[12:49] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: It means that the updates to the syntax highlighter will be updated from the server, rather than being hard-coded into the viewer and only updated when the viewer gets updated.</nowiki>

[12:49] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: However, there's no reason the viewer side code couldn't be improved at some time.. IF someone has the inclination ;-)</nowiki>

[12:49] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Oooh. It uses server side lists for highlights. Now a remember. That was announced ages ago though?</nowiki>

[12:49] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: hmm. now... can external editors access that cap?</nowiki>

[12:49] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Even though viewer updates are pretty frequent of late, there are still plenty of items in the syntax highlighter which still need to be updated.</nowiki>

[12:49] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: It was.. at least 4 years ago</nowiki>

[12:50] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: Qie, yes</nowiki>

[12:50] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-1831<nowiki> (Automatic download of syntax-table )</nowiki>

[12:50] JIRA-helper<nowiki>: [#STORM-1831] Automatic download of syntax-table - Second Life Bug Tracker</nowiki>

[12:50] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: okay, cool. (I haven't been playing with that stuff for ages, but seems useful)</nowiki>

[12:50] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: oops, sorry probably not. I was thinking of TPVs</nowiki>

[12:50] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Ima - is there a BUG on that one?</nowiki>

[12:51] Simon Linden<nowiki>: doh, I'll read chat</nowiki>

[12:51] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: STORM-1831 is the only jira I'm aware of. and STORM-1832 is related</nowiki>

[12:51] JIRA-helper<nowiki>: </nowiki>http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-1832

<nowiki>[#STORM-1832] Script editor: several constants are not highlighted - Second Life Bug Tracker</nowiki>

[12:51] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I think the syntax highlight config is available through a "cap" which is listed as available on connection to the region, and then granted if the veiwer asks for it</nowiki>

[12:51] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: so the config file is not available to general http download</nowiki>

[12:52] Simon Linden<nowiki>: if there's something broken for brackets or parenthesis, that would be good to file as a different BUG</nowiki>

[12:52] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but... once the viewer has the cap, it could (in theory) provide it to a third-party editor and the editor could download it... as long as the cap is valid (until the viewer connection is terminated)</nowiki>

[12:52] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Nothing broken. More a feature request.</nowiki>

[12:53] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: any Linden knowledgeable with the IM throttle threshold calc know if deeded objects interfere with that calc? I have an app that is deeded and has certain child prims that IM different agents that send commands to the object and over time, sometimes as early as 24 hours, IMs from those child prims stop going through and I have to either replace the affected scripts themself or the entire object for them to go through again.</nowiki>

[12:53] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: there r other options for editing your lsl code besides the viewers editor</nowiki>

[12:53] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: Andrew, I'd love to know how to do that. will save me having to write scripts to take it from my viewer cache ;-)</nowiki>

[12:53] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: I has to go, so do not dance on table while I am gone. See you all next week.</nowiki>

[12:53] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: right, Andrew, I was thinking that would be a workable path... although it makes the viewer-to-editor interface kinda... non-standard.</nowiki>

[12:53] KopilosAlt Afterthought<nowiki>: I would like a git client built into the viewer :p</nowiki>

[12:53] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Select a Parenthesis, have corresponding start/end parenthesis light up.</nowiki>

[12:54] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc</nowiki>

[12:54] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yeah, that's a nice feature in source editors</nowiki>

[12:54] Andrew Linden<nowiki> does not know about the IM throttle... when it breaks the IMs stop working thereafter?</nowiki>

[12:54] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Yeah, lots of nice features in the standard editor/IDE toolbox nowadays</nowiki>

[12:55] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: The reason I don't use an external editors is that I want to continually test what I write. So external ediitors break my workflow.</nowiki>

[12:55] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: only from scripts that "ever" IM'd anyone during whatever period of time is evaled</nowiki>

[12:55] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Ima, I wouldn't know a good way to communicate to an external editor the cap</nowiki>

[12:55] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: davido, unless it has an emulation system ;-)</nowiki>

[12:55] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is almost over</nowiki>

[12:55] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but if you were able to communicate it (the cap is just an unguessable URL) then the editor should be able to GET that URL</nowiki>

[12:55] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Ima, that exists?</nowiki>

[12:56] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: u could use a udp packet sent to localhost on a known port:)</nowiki>

[12:56] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: LSL editor has some support. I'm trying to expand it</nowiki>

[12:56] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but the unguessable URL only lasts while the viewer is connected to that region</nowiki>

[12:56] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: What about vehicle scripts? Are there emulators for that too?</nowiki>

[12:56] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Depending on how the syntax highlighting stuff is defined (XML, binary, whatever), it may or may not be useful.</nowiki>

[12:57] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: ..to external editors.</nowiki>

[12:57] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: not that I'm aware of. Would require full sim really</nowiki>

[12:57] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: Talarus, it's an LLSD xml</nowiki>

[12:57] Davido Chrome<nowiki> nods. Hmm. So, does there exist non physics SL emulators?</nowiki>

[12:58] Skills Hak<nowiki>: it's an LLSD XML UDP Exploits</nowiki>

[12:58] Skills Hak<nowiki>: haha</nowiki>

[12:58] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: O.o</nowiki>

[12:58] Skills Hak<nowiki>: running gag</nowiki>

[12:58] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: So, anything else coming down the pike for LSL? :)</nowiki>

[12:59] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: A tease, anything? :P</nowiki>

[12:59] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Andrew when you start work on anti-griefer means, I have a bunch of questions for you, lol</nowiki>

[12:59] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: C# integration is just arounf the millenium</nowiki>

[12:59] KopilosAlt Afterthought<nowiki>: xD</nowiki>

[12:59] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: nto sure what you can answer though, lol</nowiki>

[12:59] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Ok Lucia. I'll ping you when I start.</nowiki>

[12:59] Skills Hak<nowiki>: oh man i miss babbage</nowiki>

[12:59] Skills Hak<nowiki>: i wish he had finished that</nowiki>

[13:00] KopilosAlt Afterthought<nowiki>: I wish he was still around</nowiki>

[13:00] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Meh. :P</nowiki>

[13:00] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: To the C# integration :P</nowiki>

[13:00] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: didn't u guys hear? in v4 u won't need a pass. it will have voice recognition;)</nowiki>

[13:00] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: and yes, I miss Babbage and that entire team, but c'est la vie.</nowiki>

[13:00] Meeter<nowiki>: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group</nowiki>

[13:01] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: bye o/</nowiki>

[13:02] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: bye kellz</nowiki>

[13:02] KopilosAlt Afterthought<nowiki>: :O</nowiki>

[13:02] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: FOODS</nowiki>

[13:02] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Thanks for the info, Lindens. :)</nowiki>

[13:02] Petr Topaz<nowiki>: Good day folks</nowiki>

[13:02] KopilosAlt Afterthought<nowiki>: bye!</nowiki>

[13:02] Skills Hak<nowiki>: see you guys</nowiki>

[13:02] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc all those leaving</nowiki>

[13:02] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: bye Lindens Thx</nowiki>

[13:02] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: have a great time, everyone.</nowiki>

[13:02] Davido Chrome<nowiki>: Bye, thanks for today!</nowiki>

[13:02] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: tc everyone</nowiki>

[13:02] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Thank you, Kelly.</nowiki>

[13:02] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: cheers</nowiki>

[13:02] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Thank you, Lindens.</nowiki>

[13:02] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: thanks guys</nowiki>

[13:02] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: thanks for having us, Lindens.</nowiki>

[13:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Thanks everyone for coming by today and for the great chat</nowiki>

[13:03] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: lindens. have fun writing code:)</nowiki>

 
[[Simulator_User_Group]]
{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.07.23|Prev 2013.07.23]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.08.06|Next 2013.08.06]]
|}

Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.08.06

2013-08-06T23:05:47Z

Andrew Linden: Created page with "Simulator_User_Group {| | Prev 2013.07.30 | Next 2013.08.13 |} == List of Spe…"

[[Simulator_User_Group]]
{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.07.30|Prev 2013.07.30]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.08.13|Next 2013.08.13]]
|}

== List of Speakers ==
{|
|Andrew Linden
|ANSI Soderstrom
|Baker Linden
|-
|bob Iwashi
|Kallista Destiny
|Kennylex Luckless
|-
|Kitto Flora
|Kopilo Hallard
|Lucia Nightfire
|-
|MartinRJ
|Nalates Urriah
|Petr Topaz
|-
|Qie Niangao
|Rex Cronon
|Simon Linden
|-
|Sniper Siemens
|Talarus Luan
|TankMaster Finesmith
|-
|Tillie Ariantho
|Whirly Fizzle
|Yuzuru Jewell
|-
|}

== Transcript ==
[12:00] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Hia Andrew</nowiki>

[12:00] MartinRJ<nowiki>: hello</nowiki>

[12:00] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Hi everyone</nowiki>

[12:00] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hi simon, andrew</nowiki>

[12:00] Kopilo Hallard<nowiki>: rawr</nowiki>

[12:00] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Hello</nowiki>

[12:00] Sniper Siemens<nowiki>: hi</nowiki>

[12:00] bob Iwashi<nowiki>: ayup</nowiki>

[12:00] Meeter<nowiki>: Welcome to the Server User Group</nowiki>

[12:01] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Baker is missing, file a JIRA.</nowiki>

[12:01] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Simon, how about you start with release news.</nowiki>

[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: ok ...</nowiki>

[12:02] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: if u r late or can't stay go here to folow thig group meeting live: </nowiki>http://rcds.nfshost.com/ques_view_chatLog.php?queOwner=llsl:Rex<nowiki>+Cronon&queName=chatLog&pg=1</nowiki>

[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: well, the release news is pretty skimpy this week</nowiki>

[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: We didn't update the main channel today</nowiki>

[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Tomorrow the BlueSteel RC regions will get a new maintenance update</nowiki>

[12:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: LeTigre and Magnum will remain the same Server Side Appearance code</nowiki>

[12:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The forum post is here: </nowiki>http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2013-08-05/td-p/2123527

[12:04] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I have question about two changes on BS, lol</nowiki>

[12:04] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: as they look pretty significant</nowiki>

[12:04] Simon Linden<nowiki>: ok, 1 minute, Lucy</nowiki>

[12:04] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Id like to know when we can get our hands on a viewer that lets us test the VWR-13228 fix :D</nowiki>

[12:05] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: What was that bug that people wanted to test last week on aditi? Lucia in particular wanted to test it. Is it going to be on the update fo BS?</nowiki>

[12:05] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: (and what the fix actually does)</nowiki>

[12:05] Simon Linden<nowiki>: There's one minor LSL fix in the new code ... the position of listen() scripts will be at the prim location now, not the root, EXCEPT for attachments, which always listen at the AV position</nowiki>

[12:05] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: or if there is a viewer change, which was part of my question</nowiki>

[12:05] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: the listen issue was fixed</nowiki>

[12:05] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I already confirmed on aditi</nowiki>

[12:05] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yes, thanks for checking that Lucy</nowiki>

[12:06] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-3500

[12:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Whirly - that viewer is in internal QA now, but I don't have a guess when it's coming out. It has a lot of bug fixes in it, going back for months of work</nowiki>

[12:06] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Okay ty</nowiki>

[12:06] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: what was done server side in regard to that fix?</nowiki>

[12:06] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: wbb</nowiki>

[12:07] Simon Linden<nowiki>: 3500 was fixed for this release - listen() in attachments works from the AV position</nowiki>

[12:07] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Can't go anywhere without getting squashed by an inflatable Linden puppet. :P</nowiki>

[12:07] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: is the fix mainly allowing the person beign animated data on who is animating them? or is it server side revoking to any degree?</nowiki>

[12:08] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The animations permissions are revoked in the region, but not on your own attachments or HUDs</nowiki>

[12:08] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: The wha?</nowiki>

[12:08] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: ? revoked how?</nowiki>

[12:08] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Oh so everything on the regions you're in can be revoked? You can't pick & choose what?</nowiki>

[12:09] Simon Linden<nowiki>: uh, messages and new code :)</nowiki>

[12:09] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Or see who has your anim perms?</nowiki>

[12:09] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: how is it revoked? Does teh person begin animated have to explicitly ask that those perms be revoked first? or are their evaled criteria</nowiki>

[12:09] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: *there...ugh typing</nowiki>

[12:10] Simon Linden<nowiki>: In that not-yet-released viewer, if you pick "Stop Animating Me", your animation permissions will be revoked from regular objects in the region. By that, I mean anything that's not attached or a HUD</nowiki>

[12:10] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: oh, animation permissions only, and only in the region. that's cool.</nowiki>

[12:10] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: so perms containers/grabbers/stealers can still operate?</nowiki>

[12:10] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: k. That doesn't affect the perms on stored objects though, correct?</nowiki>

[12:10] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yes, just the two flavors of animations perms ... regular animations and the new override</nowiki>

[12:11] bob Iwashi<nowiki>: would that eb a cure for the soulseize?</nowiki>

[12:11] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That is correct, Talarus</nowiki>

[12:11] bob Iwashi<nowiki>: be*</nowiki>

[12:11] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Does it revoke them on a rezzed/attached object which is subsequently taken back into inv?</nowiki>

[12:11] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Yeah... I was just thinking about that...</nowiki>

[12:12] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I was just wondering if there was some kind of automation or change to usage behaviour.</nowiki>

[12:12] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: So that when it is rezzed again, it no longer has perms?</nowiki>

[12:12] Simon Linden<nowiki>: If the object was rezzed, it's revoked and then taken back, it will be stored in a revoked state</nowiki>

[12:12] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Coo</nowiki>

[12:12] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: so somebody can keep rezzing objects that have your perms and keep on animation u, while u r stuck trying to stop each new object from animating u:(</nowiki>

[12:12] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: So, to use things like soul capture would necessitate copying the objects while stored and throwing away "revoked" ones.</nowiki>

[12:12] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Oh hmm so if someone else is wearing an object as an attachment that holds your anim perms, you can't revoke that?</nowiki>

[12:13] bob Iwashi<nowiki>: ie the soul seize</nowiki>

[12:13] Simon Linden<nowiki>: no, those get revoked, Whirly</nowiki>

[12:13] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Okay cool</nowiki>

[12:13] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: But the revoke only happens at the moment it is invoked, right? so if the object was rezzed after the invoke event then it would have animation permissions, right?</nowiki>

[12:13] Simon Linden<nowiki>: only your own attachments and HUDs ... it messes with your normal AOs or dancing shoes too much :)</nowiki>

[12:13] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: While not a complete solution, it might make it more work-intensive, which will deter many of the lazy griefers.</nowiki>

[12:14] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: they can be as lazy as they want. the got scripts to work for them</nowiki>

[12:14] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Do permissions get copied when an inventory object is copied? I'd think not, but... dunno.</nowiki>

[12:14] MartinRJ<nowiki>: I think it's a great start.</nowiki>

[12:14] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Scipts can't copy inv :)</nowiki>

[12:14] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Yeah, sounds good :)</nowiki>

[12:14] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: yes, they get copied</nowiki>

[12:14] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Script state is copied in inv copies.</nowiki>

[12:14] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: they get copied if you're making a copy of an inv object, not in-world</nowiki>

[12:15] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: because they are not acessable until rezzed</nowiki>

[12:15] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: If an inv item is copied then the full state of the object is copied... the new inv item just points to the original asset.</nowiki>

[12:15] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: okay, so... manually, a griefer could cons up a whole inventory full of permission-rich objects, and rez them one at a time, so... okay, yeah, labor intensive.</nowiki>

[12:15] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: However, some obj state changes can happen on rez... permission bits might be changed for example.</nowiki>

[12:16] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: qie there r viewrs that can do it</nowiki>

[12:16] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Though I guess you wouldn't have to copy in inv if you are rezzing, only if you are attaching/detaching.</nowiki>

[12:16] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Tal: good point.</nowiki>

[12:16] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: but yeah, a good start, for sure.</nowiki>

[12:17] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Still.. occasional "Stop Animating Me" whenever you see yourself start to do something you don't want to do will put an end to most of their fun.</nowiki>

[12:17] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: simon can we get a lsl function that stops all those aniations:)</nowiki>

[12:17] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: One click for you, lots of clicks/rezzes for them</nowiki>

[12:17] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: What would happen if someone grabs your permissions and immediately detaches the object. Then they come back, wear the object, let it animate you and detach immediately.</nowiki>

[12:17] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: animations*</nowiki>

[12:17] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: well, we'll see where the change's strengths and weaknesses lie when its rolled out</nowiki>

[12:18] Simon Linden<nowiki>: It's a step in the right direction ... it stops that soul-seize object, for example. Yes, they can re-ask for perms or rez a saved one, but blocking that is just a few clicks again</nowiki>

[12:18] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: talarus there r viewers that can do that automatically</nowiki>

[12:18] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: I am all for making it more expensive for the grief mode than for the remedy.</nowiki>

[12:18] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Whirly - the perms would get revoked whenever you did "Stop Animating Me". It doesn't matter if it's attached to someone else nor not</nowiki>

[12:19] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: ahhh okay ty</nowiki>

[12:19] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Is 'World/Stop Animating My Avatar' ineffective?</nowiki>

[12:19] Simon Linden<nowiki>: it has to be in-world, however</nowiki>

[12:20] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Would be interesting to turn perms into caps. Then you could revoke the cap, and any copies would also stop working. :P</nowiki>

[12:20] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Kitto - currently it stops your viewer from playing animations on your avatar. That's all it does</nowiki>

[12:20] bob Iwashi<nowiki>: it's good news - we do see a fair fwe noobs getting hit with teh soul seize at the hubs</nowiki>

[12:20] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: the main weakness I see is that when perms are revoked, the animator can copy the inv object if its attached, which may become the new standard, heh</nowiki>

[12:20] bob Iwashi<nowiki>: so, me likey</nowiki>

[12:20] Simon Linden<nowiki>: They have to take a copy before it's revoked, but that will be possible</nowiki>

[12:20] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: but taht is a bunch of work, only the determined and/or griefer would deal with it</nowiki>

[12:20] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Hmm so what I said then, wouldnt revoke the perms I guess because the object isn't inworld anymore?</nowiki>

[12:20] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: simon. only my viewer. so everybody else can see me still being animated?</nowiki>

[12:21] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Yes Rex</nowiki>

[12:21] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: :(</nowiki>

[12:21] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: it deals with most use/occurrences cases, so its good</nowiki>

[12:21] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Yeah</nowiki>

[12:22] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: There will be lots of griffer HUD updates lol</nowiki>

[12:22] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: it is useless:(</nowiki>

[12:22] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: the onyl updates will be operation SOP</nowiki>

[12:22] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: "take into inventory, make a copy, then use only your copies in fear of revoking</nowiki>

[12:23] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I _believe_ "Stop Animating Me" was originally made to just reset your AV back to a basic animating state, and not designed to deal with the whole griefing or subsequent animation starts</nowiki>

[12:23] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: If perms were revoked on take to inventory, this would break too much legit content?</nowiki>

[12:23] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: or worse, "put into a rezzer" for revoke detect and rerez"</nowiki>

[12:23] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yes I can predict that one too</nowiki>

[12:23] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: u guys have never seen somebody forced to animate grosss sex acts? what good is if u no longer see yourself if everybody else can see u doing it?</nowiki>

[12:24] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: wha</nowiki>

[12:25] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Simon, how does the "Stop Animating Me" thing triggered and communicated? It is completely viewer-side?</nowiki>

[12:25] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: That's not what is being talked about Rex.</nowiki>

[12:25] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: did i missunderstood?</nowiki>

[12:25] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: That's the current viewer-side Stop Animating My Avatar function. The new one revokes and stops it server-side, so everyone else will stop seeing it too</nowiki>

[12:25] Simon Linden<nowiki>: One sec .. I'm checking something</nowiki>

[12:25] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: oh. ok</nowiki>

[12:26] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Oh I think I see. The "Stop Animating Me" thing has been around for a while and is viewer-side only.</nowiki>

[12:26] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: yes</nowiki>

[12:26] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: It just clears the local animation stack</nowiki>

[12:26] Simon Linden<nowiki>: ok ... so currently "Stop Animating Me" also sends ANIM_REQUEST_STOP messages to the sim ... so that should tell everyone else as well that you've stopped. It's not just your viewer</nowiki>

[12:26] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: There is some new server-side functionality that will search and destroy animation permissions in the region (except worn attachments).</nowiki>

[12:26] Simon Linden<nowiki>: It does a little more than I thought</nowiki>

[12:26] Petr Topaz<nowiki>: Treads lightly on the minefield</nowiki>

[12:27] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: good. I *thought* it already did that.</nowiki>

[12:27] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Andrew, but that doesn't require a viewer side mod. Right?</nowiki>

[12:27] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Yes Simon, 'Stop Animating Me' was put in to get you out of a stuck state. For example, if you're sitting and go to another region, you'll be stuck sitting without the chair. Stop animating me will bring you back to normal, but it doesn't always work with AO's if you've worn something (for example, the dinosaur AO won't get reset)</nowiki>

[12:28] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Aura implemented it</nowiki>

[12:28] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Now, the new not-yet-released code, will send a RevokePermissions message to the sim, and SCRIPT_PERMISSIONS_TRIGGER_ANIMATIONS and SCRIPT_PERMISSIONS_OVERRIDE_ANIMATIONS will get revoked</nowiki>

[12:28] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I still say "combat HUD" creators/griefers will change the perms collecting SOP to deter the fix, heh</nowiki>

[12:29] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: SOP = ?</nowiki>

[12:29] Qie Niangao<nowiki> is eager to understand how / if any of this interacts with eXperience Permissions keys. Someday.</nowiki>

[12:29] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: with one of teh two means I mentioned</nowiki>

[12:29] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Ah OK, I thought you were talking about a different Stop Animating My Avatar menu option on the World menu (which I can't find).</nowiki>

[12:29] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: std operating proceedure... = SOP</nowiki>

[12:29] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: SOP = Standard Operating Procedure</nowiki>

[12:29] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: The Stop Animating Me is on Me->Movement</nowiki>

[12:30] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: SOP referring to how perms are typically collected in SL, heh</nowiki>

[12:30] Simon Linden<nowiki>: New to the simulator is supporting the RevokePermissions message in a way for it to do what I described</nowiki>

[12:30] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: But, this new revoke permissions is server side automatic? Or it requires some trigger viewer side?</nowiki>

[12:30] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Well, you have to sit on something to get hit without perm dialog coming up, otherwise, you just decline unless you know where it is coming from.</nowiki>

[12:30] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is half over</nowiki>

[12:31] Simon Linden<nowiki>: It needs a new viewer that's not out yet, Nal</nowiki>

[12:31] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: But, does it have to have a new user action or button to trigger?</nowiki>

[12:31] Simon Linden<nowiki> whispers: No, just pick "Stop Animating Me"</nowiki>

[12:31] Simon Linden<nowiki>: No, just pick "Stop Animating Me"</nowiki>

[12:31] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: :)</nowiki>

[12:31] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Lazy shifter. :P</nowiki>

[12:31] Simon Linden<nowiki>: right :)</nowiki>

[12:32] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: ok, what about this change?: "Region should block rezzing and entering during final time before a shutdown"</nowiki>

[12:32] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: I do it all the time :P</nowiki>

[12:32] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: my worry there is admin locked out of a sim that w/i the 5 minutes</nowiki>

[12:32] Simon Linden<nowiki>: ah, that one -- during a scheduled restart, like our weekly ones or something a region owner invokes, you can't enter the region in the last minute</nowiki>

[12:32] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Estate managers can</nowiki>

[12:32] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: it could be set up that region and pracle owners can still enter it</nowiki>

[12:33] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Arnt all avies supposed to get disconnected before save state & shutdown actually begins?</nowiki>

[12:33] Simon Linden<nowiki>: It will also block region object entry during that minute</nowiki>

[12:33] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Losing things during shutdown?</nowiki>

[12:33] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: so only mainland benefits there, so admin of group owned land on mainland are screwed?</nowiki>

[12:33] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yes, they do Whirly, but this is just trying to stop adding stuff to the region's workload when it shuts down</nowiki>

[12:33] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: *estates benefit</nowiki>

[12:33] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: ahhh</nowiki>

[12:34] Simon Linden<nowiki>: let's say you TP into a regoin in the last second before it shuts down ... you're still going to be loading when it boots you out</nowiki>

[12:34] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Yeah and then changes you made to attachments can be lost after relog</nowiki>

[12:34] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The same possibly with rezzing an expensive no-copy item ... it's just not a good idea to start a complicated process right before shutdown. So those last 60 seconds are going to block entering and rezzing</nowiki>

[12:35] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Works for me</nowiki>

[12:35] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Sounds good</nowiki>

[12:35] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: so mainland admin are still screwed?</nowiki>

[12:35] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: also</nowiki>

[12:36] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I also added the region name to those "Your region is about to shutdown" messages</nowiki>

[12:36] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That way when you TP around a bit and then notice you have one, you can see what region it's for</nowiki>

[12:36] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: That will be nice Simon</nowiki>

[12:36] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: why is bad 4 mainland lucy</nowiki>

[12:36] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: ?</nowiki>

[12:36] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Speaking of restarting sims...we've experienced a strange grid-disconnect region state in the last month or so.. we have had regions which are still up, with people able to move around and interact with scripted and physical objects inside, but nothing will rez, and people can't TP in/out or cross the region border in or out</nowiki>

[12:36] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Seems fine for Mainland admins (whatever those are) -- the probability was always vanishingly small of ever successfully doing whatever one intended during those last 60 seconds.</nowiki>

[12:37] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Get all kinds of crazy error messages and timeouts.</nowiki>

[12:37] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I don't think "screwed" is quite the right word in this case. It would be a rare occurrence that someone would be blocked from entry from the region at the last minute before restart.</nowiki>

[12:37] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: is this magically goign to fix the problem with regions having up to an hour of server time loss with shutdowns? </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7959

[12:37] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Do you get any messages about caps problems, Talarus?</nowiki>

[12:37] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: It's like the grid forgot we exist.</nowiki>

[12:38] Simon Linden<nowiki>: It will magically fix everything, Lucy :P</nowiki>

[12:38] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: idk, lol</nowiki>

[12:38] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Hmm.. I don't think so, but I've only seen it twice.</nowiki>

[12:38] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: talarus. thre r some griefing objects tha can do that</nowiki>

[12:38] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: The region doesn't crash</nowiki>

[12:39] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i know. i have experienced it before</nowiki>

[12:39] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Of course, if one does it with no one in it, we have to put in a ticket to have it restarted.</nowiki>

[12:39] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Because no EM can get inside to restart it manually.</nowiki>

[12:40] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: maybe there is a viewer that does it. not sure</nowiki>

[12:40] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I'm guessing but that sounds like a network issue or somehow the network / messaging system is messed up and it's not talking to neighbors or possibly the back-end servers right</nowiki>

[12:40] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Might it be possible to give estate owners/managers a sim restart control panel?</nowiki>

[12:40] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Thats been happening a lot more recently. When a region is in that state, you can't TP into it usually but you can login directly, but you can't TP out. mesh will not rez, you appear offline to your contacts, you can't upload any assets. Friends & group lists are blank. Its like total caps fail. Restarting the region usually fixes it.</nowiki>

[12:40] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Has anyone been seeing a Sim get into a state where you can TP in and out, and jump, but you cannot move forwanrds/backwards/sideways - also Vehicles will not move ?</nowiki>

[12:40] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Doing what, Talarus? You already can restart it or cancel a restart</nowiki>

[12:40] Talarus Luan<nowiki> nods to Whirly's words.</nowiki>

[12:41] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Not unless you are in it.</nowiki>

[12:41] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: If you are locked out of your region when this happens, you can't restart it</nowiki>

[12:41] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Sometimes regions come back after a restart already in that state when they were fine before. Another restart will again fix it</nowiki>

[12:41] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Have to put in a ticket</nowiki>

[12:41] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: and I have been unable to log into the region directly.</nowiki>

[12:41] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: kitto. i think i had that happen to me once</nowiki>

[12:41] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-1516

[12:42] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Maestro investigated that quasi caps fail thing</nowiki>

[12:42] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: It seems that you have tried to perform an operation which you are not permitted to perform.</nowiki>



<nowiki>If you think this message is wrong, please contact your JIRA administrators. :P</nowiki>

[12:42] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: although he never posted his findings on that jira</nowiki>

[12:42] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I was in IM conf with him though</nowiki>

[12:42] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Permission Violation</nowiki>



<nowiki>It seems that you have tried to perform an operation which you are not permitted to perform.</nowiki>

[12:42] Simon Linden<nowiki>: There is another fix in the pipeline that might be related to that bad communication, but it's between the region and your viewer</nowiki>

[12:43] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: This seems to be a back-end comms/net problem</nowiki>

[12:43] Simon Linden<nowiki>: it can show up as very slow updates like that, or really slow updates to seeing parcel info and such</nowiki>

[12:43] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Jira has been broken for months - years now?</nowiki>

[12:43] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Between the region and the spaceserver</nowiki>

[12:43] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: and the asset server</nowiki>

[12:44] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: jira is working mostly as LL designed it</nowiki>

[12:44] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: If it happens again, I am going to get more detailed messages to put into a BUG report.</nowiki>

[12:44] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: LL hiring Detroit engineers now?</nowiki>

[12:45] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I had a little bit of news...</nowiki>

[12:45] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Thanks Talarus, that will help</nowiki>

[12:46] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'm pretty much done on interestlist work, so I'll be starting some general maintenance work</nowiki>

[12:46] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: with the goal of focusing on some anti-grief issues</nowiki>

[12:46] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Yay!</nowiki>

[12:46] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: yay!</nowiki>

[12:46] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: llSetKeyframedMotion fix. :P</nowiki>

[12:47] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: No need to submit anything for my to-do list right now. I still have a few items I wrote down from last week to try to look at</nowiki>

[12:47] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: what is wrong with keyfram?</nowiki>

[12:47] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: to get me back into the maintenance groove.</nowiki>

[12:47] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Motion stops on sim restart</nowiki>

[12:47] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: oh</nowiki>

[12:47] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Have to reset script to make it start back up</nowiki>

[12:47] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Telarus, that is on my list. I will try to repro and then see what I can figure out.</nowiki>

[12:48] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Put re-start in change event ?</nowiki>

[12:48] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: It also breaks if you pick the object up & re-rez or shift copy it</nowiki>

[12:48] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Lucia, you wanted to talk to me about grief issues? Let's discuss in private IM after this meeting.</nowiki>

[12:48] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-1624<nowiki> (llSetKeyframedMotion rotation behaving badly after being used in an object rezzed from inventory )</nowiki>

[12:49] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: ok, sooner than expected, I'll have to poll my list of topics from teh back of my mind instead of anything I have written out, lol</nowiki>

[12:49] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: but its still the beginning anyway, no harm</nowiki>

[12:49] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: BUG-1624</nowiki>

<nowiki>Permission Violation</nowiki>



<nowiki>It seems that you have tried to perform an operation which you are not permitted to perform.</nowiki>

[12:49] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Jira is broken.</nowiki>

[12:50] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: jira works fine for me</nowiki>

[12:50] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: I think the BUG links are for Lindens and other disciples of the Linden Ivory Coucil. :P</nowiki>

[12:50] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: where do u file a jira about a broken jira:)</nowiki>

[12:50] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: catch 22</nowiki>

[12:50] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: On JIRA :(</nowiki>

[12:50] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Jira is broken-as-intended.</nowiki>

[12:50] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: ive filed a jira with jira about jira before :P</nowiki>

[12:50] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I dunno about you folks, but I'd rather not spend much of my discussing jira</nowiki>

[12:50] Simon Linden<nowiki>: +time</nowiki>

[12:51] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: hehe</nowiki>

[12:51] bob Iwashi<nowiki> thinks it's baker's turn to get coffee for everyone</nowiki>

[12:51] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Whirly Fizzle - if you can read that BUg - how about cut/paste it here, to bypass the jira bug, so we can see what the problem is?</nowiki>

[12:52] Baker Linden<nowiki>: I don't have coffee</nowiki>

[12:52] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: It's not a bug, it's a feature. :P</nowiki>

[12:52] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: theres to much to paste in here</nowiki>

[12:52] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: kitto. i think jira doesn't think u r important enough to be able to use it;)</nowiki>

[12:53] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Rex - Moot point. Since that bug showed up I have stopped posting any Jira reports. If LL cant fix the bug reporting system... what chance of fixing the bugs there?</nowiki>

[12:54] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Kitto : </nowiki>http://i.imgur.com/eL9XW44.png

[12:55] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Dose it exist an Oculus Rift compatible wiwer?</nowiki>

[12:55] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: the bug reporting system works fine, LL can see al the bugs filed</nowiki>

[12:55] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Wuup, wrong win</nowiki>

[12:55] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: kenny, yes, LL has a viewer with oculus support</nowiki>

[12:55] Tillie Ariantho<nowiki>: 3d support would be so cool. :D</nowiki>

[12:55] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: ..including all the dupes. :P</nowiki>

[12:55] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is almost over</nowiki>

[12:55] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Can I ask here, where to find it?</nowiki>

[12:56] Simon Linden<nowiki>: oh yeah, I tried SL in the Rift yesterday ... it's not released yet but it's gonna be fun :)</nowiki>

[12:56] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: the repo for that is public, correct, simon?</nowiki>

[12:56] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Baker, in regards to group bans, is there anything to deter a scenario of bots auto-re-joining groups upon detection of ejection aside from turning off open enrollment, then eject, then ban, then open enrollment back on, forgot to ask last OH</nowiki>

[12:57] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I don't know if it's public or not, Tank</nowiki>

[12:57] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i think using the rift during a major griefing event would be quite interesting;)</nowiki>

[12:57] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: some bots have instant re-join cap upon ejection, much fast than you can do all I just described</nowiki>

[12:57] Kopilo Hallard<nowiki>: the oddball</nowiki>

[12:57] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: which is why I ask, lol</nowiki>

[12:57] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: then ban, when it's implemented will prevent rejoining</nowiki>

[12:57] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Better to sit at the computer with a dumb looking box on the head then sit looking on the dumb box (TV)</nowiki>

[12:57] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Whirly Fizzle - thats interesting... I have not seen a problem with rotation in KFM - and I have a whole new product line that uses KFM for its operation. I'd try to repo that bug you see, but I cant read the script from that link.</nowiki>

[12:57] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I think it'll slow down your griefing, Rex ;)</nowiki>

[12:58] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I'm mentionign it since group banlist ability is not grandfather with other abilites</nowiki>

[12:58] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Lucy, I'm a but confused. If you ban someone, they can't re-join again until they're off the ban list</nowiki>

[12:58] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: idt there will be an "eject and ban" option</nowiki>

[12:58] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i don't grief. i just subjected to it</nowiki>

[12:58] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: It's still a Work In Progress.</nowiki>

[12:58] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Here, you can still read mine: </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7556

[12:58] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Ban will most certainly auto-eject the person</nowiki>

[12:58] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Kitto: Script paste: </nowiki>http://pastebin.com/JEDeR73H

[12:58] Baker Linden<nowiki>: ban is like an eject, but it actually stucks</nowiki>

[12:58] Baker Linden<nowiki>: sticks*</nowiki>

[12:59] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: ok, great, as long as it follows the current eject checks, lol</nowiki>

[12:59] Baker Linden<nowiki>: And banning someone will automatically ban them regardless of what role they're in, so it'll be a pretty powerful tool</nowiki>

[12:59] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: didn't know that ban also ejected at teh same time</nowiki>

[12:59] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: or will I mean</nowiki>

[13:00] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: just please tell me an officer cannot ban an owner, lol</nowiki>

[13:00] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: and theres no way for viewer side hacks to rejoin the group?</nowiki>

[13:00] Baker Linden<nowiki>: owners will not be able to be banned</nowiki>

[13:00] Baker Linden<nowiki>: but anyone with the ban ability will be able to ban anyone else regardless of role.</nowiki>

[13:00] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: mistakes happen and if you tie in lsl backend they can happen easily</nowiki>

[13:00] Baker Linden<nowiki>: I mean, save the owner, of course.</nowiki>

[13:00] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Because owners can't be ejected.</nowiki>

[13:00] Meeter<nowiki>: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group</nowiki>

[13:01] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: if somebody has like 100 alts group banning might not hurt them so much</nowiki>

[13:01] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Did everyone just get a 15 second warning></nowiki>

[13:01] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: so officers can ban/eject other officers? if they have group banlist ability?</nowiki>

[13:01] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but... who to give the ban ability to by default? The owner of course, but some groups no longer have an enabled owner.</nowiki>

[13:01] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: 15 sec warning for what?</nowiki>

[13:02] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: No warning here o.O</nowiki>

[13:02] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Correct. Anyone with the ban ability can ban anyone else. My reasoning is that if you can't trust an officer with banning, don't let that person be an officer.</nowiki>

[13:02] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i am no longer allowed here and i have 15 seconds to leave?</nowiki>

[13:02] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: To leave the region</nowiki>

[13:02] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: why?</nowiki>

[13:02] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: that worries me, little</nowiki>

[13:02] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: "you are notlonger welcome here, you have 15 seconds to leave"</nowiki>

[13:03] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: i didnt get that message</nowiki>

[13:03] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i got it too</nowiki>

[13:03] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Me either</nowiki>

[13:03] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: its a notification</nowiki>

[13:03] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Someone is a smart ass then</nowiki>

[13:03] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Someone's fiddling with access settings :P</nowiki>

[13:03] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: soemone flipped public ascces on/off, lol</nowiki>

[13:03] Baker Linden<nowiki>: The other route I can go is anyone with the ban ability can ban anyone that doesn't have that ability</nowiki>

[13:03] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: or off/on</nowiki>

[13:04] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Baker I think that would be best as it would mirror existing eject rights</nowiki>

[13:04] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: That would be better I think, Baker</nowiki>

[13:04] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: a new hack. interesting. sending notifications to others</nowiki>

[13:04] Baker Linden<nowiki>: but I don't see the point in that, since we already have a problem with eject not being able to eject anyone belonging to any role other than "Everyone" which seems pointless to me</nowiki>

[13:04] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That was me ... I was checking a dialog UI switch. Sorry for the confusion</nowiki>

[13:04] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Well, an officer can already eject another officer can't they? If they have been given that ability in group role</nowiki>

[13:04] Baker Linden<nowiki>: no, Whirly</nowiki>

[13:04] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: OH, OK...</nowiki>

[13:04] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I need to get going ... thanks everyone for coming today</nowiki>

[13:04] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[13:04] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: lol simon. u got me worried</nowiki>

[13:04] Baker Linden<nowiki>: not necessarily</nowiki>

[13:04] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc simon</nowiki>

[13:04] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Ty Lindens</nowiki>

[13:05] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Eject Members from this Group using the 'Eject' button in the Roles section > Members tab. An Owner can eject anyone except another Owner. If you're not an Owner, a Member can be ejected from a group if, and only if, they're only in the Everyone Role, and NO other Roles. To remove Members from Roles, you need to have the 'Remove Members from Roles' Ability.</nowiki>

[13:05] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Thank you, Lindens.</nowiki>

[13:05] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: tc simon</nowiki>

[13:05] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki> shouts: hi && bye O.o</nowiki>

[13:05] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: ups</nowiki>

[13:05] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Ciao</nowiki>

[13:05] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: the problem wtih ejects is roles outside of everyone and officer</nowiki>

[13:05] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Thx Lindens</nowiki>

[13:05] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Yeah which makes it timeconsuming to eject people</nowiki>

[13:05] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Is Simon gray?</nowiki>

[13:05] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: created roles I mean</nowiki>

[13:05] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: No he's Simon Linden</nowiki>

[13:05] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Simon, you looks gray upper body..</nowiki>

[13:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I'll re-bake....</nowiki>

[13:06] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: I see grey too</nowiki>

[13:06] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: I see Simon's shirt as grey. The rest of him has color</nowiki>

[13:06] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Baked now</nowiki>

[13:06] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i se simon that way too</nowiki>

[13:06] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: baked now</nowiki>

[13:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I must have been half-baked</nowiki>

[13:06] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: I see!</nowiki>

[13:06] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[13:06] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Default setting :P</nowiki>

[13:06] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Now you good and I do not say "I see gray people"</nowiki>

[13:06] Kallista Destiny<nowiki> giggles</nowiki>

[13:06] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Somon is rezzing completely now</nowiki>

[13:06] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: how u bake a linden:)</nowiki>

[13:06] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: yes</nowiki>

[13:06] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Need to finish your doob before the meeting :P</nowiki>

[13:07] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: u ok now simon</nowiki>

[13:07] Simon Linden<nowiki>: speaking of baking, I want to do a quick informal poll ... is the SSA code good? Do you like the way it works now?</nowiki>

[13:07] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: now your hat is gray:)</nowiki>

[13:07] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Yesh</nowiki>

[13:07] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: GTG!</nowiki>

[13:07] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Back home, see laters. take care and have fun.</nowiki>

[13:07] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Ship it</nowiki>

[13:07] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I'd like it if it was grid wide, lol</nowiki>

[13:07] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: yeahm the SSA code seems to be working fine</nowiki>

[13:07] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: I haven't noticed a difference, which is what I would expect. :D</nowiki>

[13:07] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: but yes so far, yes</nowiki>

[13:07] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: SHIP IT!</nowiki>

[13:07] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc all those leaving</nowiki>

[13:07] Simon Linden<nowiki>: we're on an old style region, fwiw</nowiki>

[13:08] Simon Linden<nowiki>: great, thanks for the comments</nowiki>

[13:08] Simon Linden<nowiki>: See you on Thursday</nowiki>

[13:08] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: some people say they got problems since the ssa</nowiki>

[13:08] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: I just wish the viewer would stop hitching so badly. :(</nowiki>

[13:09] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Hitching how?</nowiki>

[13:09] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ok see you all later.</nowiki>

[13:09] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: have fun andrew</nowiki>

[13:09] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: tc andrew, simon, baker :D</nowiki>

[13:09] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Turning the camera, right-clicking a name, opening About Land</nowiki>

[13:09] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Thanks for your time everyone. Have a great week!</nowiki>

[13:09] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Nyx said gray avatar causes not ssa but http transfer, yesterday.</nowiki>

[13:09] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: ok meeting over. stopping logging</nowiki>

[13:09] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc baker</nowiki>

[13:09] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Get freezes from a few seconds to nearly a minute</nowiki>

[13:10] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Thank you, Rex.</nowiki>

[13:10] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: np</nowiki>

[13:10] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: You on V3 or a v3 viewer with CHUI?</nowiki>

[13:10] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: It helped me!</nowiki>

[13:10] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Whatever the latest LL viewer is</nowiki>

[13:10] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Just installed the update today</nowiki>

[13:10] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i am glad it did:)</nowiki>

[13:10] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: The freeze on right clicking an avi name and when opening prefs is known CHUI bug</nowiki>

[13:10] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: so V3 with the new vivox :P</nowiki>

[13:11] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: by all</nowiki>

[13:11] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: The freeze when opening about land is usually only on regions with a really long covenant, which basically means any region in Caledon estate.</nowiki>

[13:11] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: TankMaster, I updated GPU table, And I can see shadows.</nowiki>

 
[[Simulator_User_Group]]
{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.07.30|Prev 2013.07.30]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.08.13|Next 2013.08.13]]
|}

Simulator User Group

2013-08-06T23:04:52Z

Andrew Linden:

Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.07.09

2013-07-12T17:08:18Z

Andrew Linden: Created page with "Simulator_User_Group {| | Prev 2013.07.02 | Next 2013.07.16 |} == List of Spe…"

[[Simulator_User_Group]]
{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.07.02|Prev 2013.07.02]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.07.16|Next 2013.07.16]]
|}

== List of Speakers ==
{|
|Andrew Linden
|Annasue Barzane
|Baker Linden
|-
|Duckie Dickins
|Kallista Destiny
|katie Canucci
|-
|Kelly Linden
|Kitto Flora
|Latif Khalifa
|-
|Levio Serenity
|Lucia Nightfire
|machka Resident
|-
|MartinRJ Resident
|Mona Eberhardt
|Motor Loon
|-
|Nalates Urriah
|Petr Topaz
|Qie Niangao
|-
|Rex Cronon
|Simon Linden
|Sovereign Engineer
|-
|Talarus Luan
|Whirly Fizzle
|Yuzuru Jewell
|-
|}

== Transcript ==
[19:00] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Hello Kelly!</nowiki>

[19:00] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: hello</nowiki>

[19:00] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hello everybody</nowiki>

[19:01] machka Resident<nowiki>: hi all</nowiki>

[19:01] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Hi all</nowiki>

[19:01] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: kelly shaved this week !</nowiki>

[19:01] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Hey Baker!</nowiki>

[19:01] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: and blinged up too.</nowiki>

[19:01] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: :( re-bake fixed the error.</nowiki>

[19:01] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Hello Simon.</nowiki>

[19:01] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Hello everyone</nowiki>

[19:01] machka Resident<nowiki>: hi Simon</nowiki>

[19:02] Baker Linden<nowiki>: brb</nowiki>

[19:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Hello everyone</nowiki>

[19:02] Motor Loon<nowiki>: Ey guys</nowiki>

[19:02] Annasue Barzane<nowiki>: Hello Simon</nowiki>

[19:02] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hello kelly, simon, baker</nowiki>

[19:02] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: hi all, again</nowiki>

[19:02] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hi</nowiki>

[19:02] machka Resident<nowiki>: hi katie</nowiki>

[19:03] katie Canucci<nowiki>: hi machka</nowiki>

[19:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I'm not sure if Andrew will make it today, but I can get started with the release news</nowiki>

[19:03] katie Canucci<nowiki>: hi everyone</nowiki>

[19:03] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hi</nowiki>

[19:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The forum post for this week is here: </nowiki>http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2013-07-08/td-p/2074931

[19:03] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Hi Andrew.</nowiki>

[19:03] machka Resident<nowiki>: and there he is lol</nowiki>

[19:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Hi Andrew</nowiki>

[19:03] machka Resident<nowiki>: hi andrew</nowiki>

[19:03] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: hello</nowiki>

[19:03] MartinRJ Resident<nowiki>: hello</nowiki>

[19:03] Annasue Barzane<nowiki>: Hi Andrew</nowiki>

[19:03] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hi andrew. u made it:)</nowiki>

[19:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: We updated the main server code this morning with the version that's been in the RC channels</nowiki>

[19:05] machka Resident<nowiki>: yes and what does that mean exactly?</nowiki>

[19:05] Annasue Barzane<nowiki>: yes please explain</nowiki>

[19:05] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: it means there might be a bad storm rising;)</nowiki>

[19:05] machka Resident<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[19:05] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Hey Nal. Hello Yuzuru.</nowiki>

[19:05] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: means bring popcorn for tomorrow</nowiki>

[19:05] Annasue Barzane<nowiki>: figures</nowiki>

[19:05] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: It means we're doomed DOOMED!</nowiki>

[19:05] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Hi all</nowiki>

[19:05] machka Resident<nowiki>: ok should this be on voice my first time herellol</nowiki>

[19:06] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hi</nowiki>

[19:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: well, we have different server versions running on the grid at once. About 70% of the grid is the "main" code, and the other 30% can be divided up into three possible "channels"</nowiki>

[19:06] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Hello, Mina and Nalates.</nowiki>

[19:06] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Hello, Inara.</nowiki>

[19:06] Annasue Barzane<nowiki>: OK</nowiki>

[19:06] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Is the meeting started?</nowiki>

[19:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: last week those channels were all the same code ... the next bug fix update</nowiki>

[19:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yes</nowiki>

[19:06] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: machka, this meeting is done through text chat</nowiki>

[19:06] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: (Machka, luckily, not voice.)</nowiki>

[19:06] machka Resident<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[19:06] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Yeah, there has alread been baw about SSA(ne Baking) that it's alread out there, idiots.</nowiki>

[19:07] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: every case that I've investigated has proven negative.</nowiki>

[19:07] Simon Linden<nowiki>: so we updated the main 70% with that next version, so as of now the whole grid is the same server version</nowiki>

[19:07] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Tomorrow will be 'interesting'</nowiki>

[19:07] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Tomorrow those 3 "channels" will each get different versions</nowiki>

[19:07] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Simon, how much of the grid is on LeTigre?</nowiki>

[19:07] Latif Khalifa<nowiki>: 10%</nowiki>

[19:08] Simon Linden<nowiki>: One of which is the server-side appearance code, when the world will come to an end as we know it</nowiki>

[19:08] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Ack! I'm being called into an important meeting. I'm going to have to bail.</nowiki>

[19:08] Latif Khalifa<nowiki>: hehe</nowiki>

[19:08] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Less I think, I thought magnum was the largest of the RC</nowiki>

[19:08] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Sorry. Carry on without me.</nowiki>

[19:08] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc</nowiki>

[19:08] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Aww</nowiki>

[19:08] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Thanks Andrew for trying</nowiki>

[19:08] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Bye Andrew, thanks for coming.</nowiki>

[19:08] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: OK andrew</nowiki>

[19:08] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: have fun</nowiki>

[19:08] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: wanted to ask about the interest list fix progress.</nowiki>

[19:08] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: *snickers*</nowiki>

[19:08] Latif Khalifa<nowiki>: Well supposedly main in 70% plus 3 * 10% for the RC channels</nowiki>

[19:08] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: there goes my questions about the anti griefing steps</nowiki>

[19:09] Simon Linden<nowiki>: So tomorrow will be interesting, as Kallista said</nowiki>

[19:09] machka Resident<nowiki>: ha lucy</nowiki>

[19:09] Latif Khalifa<nowiki>: D-Day</nowiki>

[19:09] machka Resident<nowiki>: that is why im here</nowiki>

[19:09] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: 'important' meetings are never fun.</nowiki>

[19:09] machka Resident<nowiki>: what about the griefers yes</nowiki>

[19:09] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: this meeting should have been held tomorrow:)</nowiki>

[19:10] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: It will be, on Thursday, in the Beta Grid.</nowiki>

[19:10] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: tomorrow is a good day for support to take their cactions</nowiki>

[19:10] machka Resident<nowiki>: so?</nowiki>

[19:10] Simon Linden<nowiki>: well ... for the short term, the update today has a fix for one of the most popular ways to crash regions, so hopefully that will help a bit</nowiki>

[19:10] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: *vacations</nowiki>

[19:10] machka Resident<nowiki>: ok it might i hope so</nowiki>

[19:10] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Yeah, I SECed one of those last week</nowiki>

[19:11] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Re: BlueSteel's new release... any hope of some more info about how XP will work?</nowiki>

[19:11] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I think "most popular" is up for debate Simon, heh</nowiki>

[19:11] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Had some griefer wannabees roll through and repeatedly crashed one of our regions. Had to eat him. >.></nowiki>

[19:11] Simon Linden<nowiki>: long term, we're going to keep working on the griefing issue with various steps like Baker's group ban work</nowiki>

[19:11] machka Resident<nowiki>: why not limit the avatar making</nowiki>

[19:11] machka Resident<nowiki>: i mean limit the accounts</nowiki>

[19:11] Simon Linden<nowiki>: as most of you know, it's a tough balancing act between being totally open so new folks can get to your events, and letting in the trouble-makers</nowiki>

[19:12] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Roll on the Group ban...</nowiki>

[19:12] machka Resident<nowiki>: it used to be 5 acounts not more</nowiki>

[19:12] machka Resident<nowiki>: now they can make like 100</nowiki>

[19:12] Annasue Barzane<nowiki>: yes this must stop</nowiki>

[19:12] machka Resident<nowiki>: we are griefed so bad we must move</nowiki>

[19:12] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Well, fix the crash modes for sure.</nowiki>

[19:12] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Machka, I think this could be handled to an extent if LL decided to implement master accounts (SVC-6212).</nowiki>

[19:12] machka Resident<nowiki>: how is it that people can make a new account every day?</nowiki>

[19:12] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: not lilke they cant just get more free email addys anyways</nowiki>

[19:12] katie Canucci<nowiki>: we cant relax o sl</nowiki>

[19:12] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: They can make new accounts by the hundreds</nowiki>

[19:13] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: it so easy for somebody to become a griefer. just a few thousand $L u can buy sim crasher and there are even sim crasher groups u can join...</nowiki>

[19:13] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: SVC-6212 has great potential if they can address teh payment issues</nowiki>

[19:13] machka Resident<nowiki>: yep</nowiki>

[19:13] Annasue Barzane<nowiki>: thought u could block adresses? i guess the griefers get by you in some way</nowiki>

[19:13] machka Resident<nowiki>: i just think LL should make a priority of it</nowiki>

[19:13] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: address blocks are useless.</nowiki>

[19:13] machka Resident<nowiki>: many of us suffer</nowiki>

[19:13] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I will pass along your requests about limiting accounts but be aware that SL has been very open from the start, and it is very, very difficult to restrict that effectively without hurting others</nowiki>

[19:13] Annasue Barzane<nowiki>: yes i agree</nowiki>

[19:14] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: IP bans aren't a solution, Anna. Anyone can change their IP, and even changing the router's MAC address is easy.</nowiki>

[19:14] Annasue Barzane<nowiki>: Simon may i drop a notecard on, for u to read later and pass on?</nowiki>

[19:14] machka Resident<nowiki>: yes i understand but make note: many of us pay a lot to be here, have shops live venues etc</nowiki>

[19:14] Simon Linden<nowiki>: blocking addresses is not as effective as we'd all like</nowiki>

[19:14] Simon Linden<nowiki>: sure Anna</nowiki>

[19:14] machka Resident<nowiki>: i had to cancell all shows again</nowiki>

[19:14] Annasue Barzane<nowiki>: Ty</nowiki>

[19:14] machka Resident<nowiki>: SL should be fun right?</nowiki>

[19:14] machka Resident<nowiki>: now its a stressfull place to be</nowiki>

[19:15] katie Canucci<nowiki>: yes it should machka</nowiki>

[19:15] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Simon, many of us rent regions and we don't want griefers, trolls and cyberbullies spoiling our fun. And, by the way, the feeds are a free-for-all for sockpuppets and bullying.</nowiki>

[19:15] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I just realized theres almost 30 people here I should have known, heh</nowiki>

[19:15] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I can also tell you that the problems are known and taken very seriously by the product folks and us at Linden. We know it's a painful issue</nowiki>

[19:15] Motor Loon<nowiki>: machka: you're asking for a fix for something there's no acceptable fix for °͜° I know, we've all done it in the last 10 years at some point...</nowiki>

[19:15] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Sometimes the people having fun are the Griefers :-(</nowiki>

[19:15] Simon Linden<nowiki>: If it was easy to fix, we would</nowiki>

[19:15] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Ugh the feeds are really bad. best to just stay off those heh</nowiki>

[19:15] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Exactly how do forum & feed trolls & griefers contribute to the virtual economy?</nowiki>

[19:15] Annasue Barzane<nowiki>: Well it is about time that there was a fix</nowiki>

[19:16] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Not to mention they give SL the *very* bad name it has now.</nowiki>

[19:16] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: what feeds?</nowiki>

[19:16] machka Resident<nowiki>: good question Mona</nowiki>

[19:16] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: my.secondlife.com, Rex.</nowiki>

[19:16] machka Resident<nowiki>: yes</nowiki>

[19:16] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Mona Sl does not have a bad name...</nowiki>

[19:16] Petr Topaz<nowiki>: How about having a set up fee $10 and refunding it after 30 days</nowiki>

[19:16] Petr Topaz<nowiki>: In lindens</nowiki>

[19:16] machka Resident<nowiki>: no but many are leaving here because of the griefer issue</nowiki>

[19:17] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: And the trolling.</nowiki>

[19:17] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Lots of people don't have a payment method.</nowiki>

[19:17] machka Resident<nowiki>: many close down venues and fashion shows</nowiki>

[19:17] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: how about just a setup fee of $10 and give them $10 of lindens</nowiki>

[19:17] Baker Linden<nowiki>: For my update: I'm making really good progress on group bans. I'm doing a bit of a refactoring because I changed the way the backend works slightly. Hopefully by the end of the week I'll be finishing up the backend code.</nowiki>

[19:17] Simon Linden<nowiki>: as for the forums and feeds ... we try to focus on the server software at this meeting, since that's where we Lindens work. A lot of the griefing issues are with parts of SL outside of that, and we can't do much other than pass along your message</nowiki>

[19:17] Annasue Barzane<nowiki>: at least look in to stopping NYM and Admiral,and all their alts, Robert and i are at our wits end</nowiki>

[19:18] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Yay Baker! <3</nowiki>

[19:18] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Oh, I dunno.. every time SL gets a story on slashdot, the response in the comments is generally negative.. nerd crowd, sure, but it's a demographic that sees SL in generally a bad light.</nowiki>

[19:18] Annasue Barzane<nowiki>: sHOUTS GET GRIEFERS OUT</nowiki>

[19:18] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: How long till theres a test viewer Baker? :P</nowiki>

[19:18] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Anna, there's no need to shout here.</nowiki>

[19:18] Motor Loon<nowiki>: Sounds good Baker, I'm looking forward to putting the system to work °͜°</nowiki>

[19:18] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Or at leaste sample code to interface...</nowiki>

[19:18] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Oh yeah, me too</nowiki>

[19:18] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: How about passing along that Governance needs to start holding office hours, simon. :)</nowiki>

[19:19] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Simon and annoying problem is that when it comes to the web side of SL there is no one to talk to. That is an old and ongoing user complaint.</nowiki>

[19:19] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Governance is a shadow force, lol idt they'd like any kind of light esp if its lime</nowiki>

[19:19] Motor Loon<nowiki>: and btw, kudos and super thank'ies for the recent scripting obj return features</nowiki>

[19:19] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Nal is right.</nowiki>

[19:19] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Does governance even exist as a team anymore, or is it just a handful of interns or outsourced?</nowiki>

[19:19] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Can you imagine the drama at a governance usergroup? lol</nowiki>

[19:20] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Good, re: group bans, but... what if there were a way to invite / eject group members by script? (reminded by the nice new scripted object return functions)</nowiki>

[19:20] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: whirly..the good thing is that we don't need to be there. :)</nowiki>

[19:20] Motor Loon<nowiki>: lol a gov. team usergroup would be a screaming whining mess, and you all know it °͜°</nowiki>

[19:20] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: theres drama between governance and other depts it would utter chaos with general population</nowiki>

[19:20] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: I used to go to the Governance user group meetings.. sometimes they were bad, but not always.</nowiki>

[19:20] Simon Linden<nowiki>: well, like I said, I can't do anything other than pass along things outside tech issues</nowiki>

[19:20] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i don't think 4 sims would be enough to hold a gov. team meeting;)</nowiki>

[19:20] Simon Linden<nowiki>: speaking of, the project viewer here : </nowiki>http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Alternate_Viewers

[19:21] Simon Linden<nowiki>: ... has the right-click-on-a-particle code so you can mute the owner's objects</nowiki>

[19:21] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Yay! Particle select</nowiki>

[19:21] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: does it have the ribbon particles, too?</nowiki>

[19:21] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Qie, I've considered adding scripting functions with group bans. It won't happen at launch, but I've been thinking about it.</nowiki>

[19:22] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That's in the "Second Life Beta Maintenance Viewer" near the bottom of the page</nowiki>

[19:22] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: nice</nowiki>

[19:22] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Baker: superb! that's very encouraging, thanks!</nowiki>

[19:22] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Yeay! Baker</nowiki>

[19:22] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Oh, when you mute particles and then remove from block list (remove owner) the particles don't render until you change active group tag. Im guessing thats expected behaviour?</nowiki>

[19:22] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i think it might be quite hard to select a particle when u r surrounded by a cloud of them that move around u like crazy...</nowiki>

[19:22] Simon Linden<nowiki>: It also have a fps limit on particles ... the viewer stops making new ones when it hits 4 fps</nowiki>

[19:22] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Baker are group banlists grouped with parcel banlist moderation abilities or is it it's own ability</nowiki>

[19:22] Simon Linden<nowiki>: has*</nowiki>

[19:23] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Its really easy to select them actually. I was surprised how accurate that was</nowiki>

[19:23] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That sounds strange, Whirly ... I wouldn't expect them to come back until the viewer tries to generate them again</nowiki>

[19:24] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Lucy, Group banlists are their own ability.</nowiki>

[19:24] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: maybe the LL viewer needs a particle explorer sort of like Firestorm's Sound Explorer.....I use that a lot to find offending sounds and the person causing them.</nowiki>

[19:24] Simon Linden<nowiki>: we really didn't look at that end of it much</nowiki>

[19:24] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Maybe that group change is somehow causing an update so the particles are refreshed</nowiki>

[19:25] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Ya</nowiki>

[19:25] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: also, do you have it setup that invites do not auto unban agents that are on the banlist whether attempted or accepted?</nowiki>

[19:25] Simon Linden<nowiki>: but it feels like they shouldn't be connected</nowiki>

[19:26] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That's an interesting edge case, Lucy ... I would think it would be better for the invite to get dropped if they're on the ban list than trying to guess if you really meant to invite them back in or not</nowiki>

[19:27] Motor Loon<nowiki>: for sure</nowiki>

[19:27] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Okay Ill file that then, wasn't sure if it was a bug or not. Its not new behaviour when unblocking a user - you always had to change group tag (or TP out & back or relog) to see their particles after unvlocking. Group tag change is just a quick way of getting data resent.</nowiki>

[19:27] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Yes, drop the invite, assuming that there is an unban capability</nowiki>

[19:27] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: its not an edge case imo as there are different levels of opreation in groups particularly between invite roles and banlist moderation</nowiki>

[19:27] machka Resident<nowiki>: ok this is a lot of tech stuff for me, but banlists dont work really, if you own half a sim they just land on the other parcel and crash it</nowiki>

[19:28] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I don't want those not affiliated with inviting interfereing with moderation</nowiki>

[19:28] Baker Linden<nowiki>: You would have to unban them to reinvite. I never thought about that, but yeah, that's how I'd do it.</nowiki>

[19:28] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: nods nods</nowiki>

[19:28] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Yeah, that's a common problem with mainland and unmanaged private estates, Machka</nowiki>

[19:28] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: *don't want those affiliated with inviting interefering with moderation, heh</nowiki>

[19:28] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Speaking of particles - what became of the 'Ribbon' particles, promised back in March?</nowiki>

[19:28] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: indirectly/accidentally</nowiki>

[19:28] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Agreed, Machka ... there's a limit to what you can do if there's freely open land on the same region</nowiki>

[19:28] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: changing group tag was always a work around to get people who weren't rez to suddenly rez.....somehow it does force an update</nowiki>

[19:29] machka Resident<nowiki>: yes Simon</nowiki>

[19:29] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Yep, its a usefull trick</nowiki>

[19:29] Baker Linden<nowiki>: If you're banned, you're on that ban list until you get taken off. Once you're off, you're free to rejoin the group.</nowiki>

[19:29] Baker Linden<nowiki>: It may take an extra couple clicks</nowiki>

[12:30] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is half over</nowiki>

[19:30] Baker Linden<nowiki>: but it's sure better than having to re-ban someone immediately. That just lets them grief for those few seconds :)</nowiki>

[19:30] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: better than having the banned jumping back in via a friends invite.</nowiki>

[19:30] Simon Linden<nowiki>: There's a backlog of unreleased bug fixes and mini-features like the new ribbon particles. The first part of that is the project viewer I linked before. Once that one is out, we'll get the next one going</nowiki>

[19:30] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The new viewer release process will hopefully help with that backlog problem</nowiki>

[19:30] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: The tiling bug is back in that beta maintenance viewer btw.</nowiki>

[19:31] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: OK, ty</nowiki>

[19:31] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: I'd love circular particle motion..</nowiki>

[19:31] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: I need to file that still</nowiki>

[19:31] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: The viewer has the capability, but the scripted system doesn't take advantage of it</nowiki>

[19:31] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Speaking of which, are they any plans to impliment logs of group operations (invites, ejects including from roles, changes to roles, etc).</nowiki>

[19:31] machka Resident<nowiki>: i have to go now, i said what i wanted to say so I hope LL will take it in consideration and thank you Simon</nowiki>

[19:31] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Please do, Whily - we have an update to that release that's about to go out</nowiki>

[19:31] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i would like particles to loop through a list of pos:)</nowiki>

[19:31] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Whirly*</nowiki>

[19:32] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: I know there have been JIRAs for these features</nowiki>

[19:32] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Kallista - there are no plans for group activity logs that I know of</nowiki>

[19:33] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Thank you</nowiki>

[19:33] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: OOOh okay. Ill get to that today. Basically if any post processing effects are applied when taking snapdhots in deferred (just glow even) then the tiling bugs back. Also, it causes Nvidia driver crashes a lot when taking shots. I never get that on regular V3. My friend tested who has a 590 card & his driver crashed every 2nd shot on the maintenance viewer too, so somethings wrong. The 590 shouldn't crash heh.</nowiki>

[19:34] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Those driver crashes are ugly</nowiki>

[19:34] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: We both had this crash </nowiki>http://nvidia.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/3008

[19:34] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: I was gonna poke at it more before I filed</nowiki>

[19:35] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: & its constant, pretty much every other shot & it only happens with maintenance viewer</nowiki>

[19:35] Simon Linden<nowiki>: At least it's reproducible, that's a good thing</nowiki>

[19:35] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: I thought it may be I was pushing my card too much testing large file sizes but my friend was the same with a 590..so....</nowiki>

[19:36] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: I'll have to try the beta viewer..I got a 650.</nowiki>

[19:38] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: But look..seems back </nowiki>http://i.imgur.com/wDLnGqv.png<nowiki> :(</nowiki>

[19:38] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: *sems</nowiki>

[19:38] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: gah seams</nowiki>

[19:38] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: that is something I've never experienced.</nowiki>

[19:39] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: only freaky thing I do experience with nvidia is at high altitudes sometimes your skin shows up as part of the sky for a moment. lol</nowiki>

[19:39] Simon Linden<nowiki>: you need the right kind of object and graphics features enabled to see it</nowiki>

[19:40] Simon Linden<nowiki>: wow, that sounds like a good one, Duckie</nowiki>

[19:40] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: well I got ALM turned ou to the max pretty much</nowiki>

[19:40] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: its skin and clothign layers, I see it half the time I log in at high alt</nowiki>

[19:40] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: I've seen Duckie's thing, but it has been awhile.</nowiki>

[19:40] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Yeah I get that. Toggle ALM off & back on to fix it, or anything that reloads shaders. Only a temp fix though till you rebake again</nowiki>

[19:41] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: yeah..it's mostly at high altitudes above cloud level but it goes away</nowiki>

[19:41] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: VWR-28962</nowiki>

[19:41] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: There's something I've noticed about performance, and I just remembered it. When I'm in a region that's seriously loaded with sculpts, mesh, scripts, local lights and all (a region that causes my frame rate to go really down) and I teleport back to a "cleaner" region, my frame rates in the "clean" region are not as high as I'd expect of it.</nowiki>

[19:41] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Broken JIRA thingy?</nowiki>

[19:42] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-28962<nowiki> (Skin face texture showing on the sky)</nowiki>

[19:42] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Relogging fixes that, but...</nowiki>

[19:42] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i don't think the jira thingy work since jiras r not public anymore</nowiki>

[19:42] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: :(</nowiki>

[19:42] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: yup that's exactly it..happened to me earlier today but on firestorm.</nowiki>

[19:43] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Yeah, same thing on FS</nowiki>

[19:43] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: I crash too often to have issues with lag, but I have noticed the current viewer is badly pipelined...I get lots of hitches and freezes just camming around a sim I have been in for an hour or so.</nowiki>

[19:43] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: wonder if the skin-sky texture thing will change after SSA</nowiki>

[19:44] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: and the first right-click of the day for context menu popup freezes the renderer for 10-15 seconds while it grinds the hard drive.</nowiki>

[19:44] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Hmm maybe? But it must be your local bake you see in the sky because only you see it, so..maybe not.</nowiki>

[19:44] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Whirly, good point.</nowiki>

[19:44] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Maybe it will only happen when in appearance mode</nowiki>

[19:45] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I'm betting it will still happen, heh</nowiki>

[19:45] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: So, I know that Andrew probably has the answer to this, but how's the interest list fixes going?</nowiki>

[19:46] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I'm not sure why the viewer would continue to perform badly after leaving a busy region, but it's not too hard to guess about a few things ... the graphics system was probably overloaded, there might be memory leaks, a bunch of lingering data, stuff like that. I'm guessing since I'm mostly in the server</nowiki>

[19:47] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: maybe cache is not cleared?</nowiki>

[19:47] Simon Linden<nowiki>: it wouldn't be, Rex</nowiki>

[19:47] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Since the SSA code went in, theres some lovely extra memory leaks :/</nowiki>

[19:47] Sovereign Engineer<nowiki>: /me nods</nowiki>

[19:47] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: My guess is poor memory management... fragmentation</nowiki>

[19:47] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I hope, at least ... in a normal case, I'd like to be able to return to a region and not download everything again</nowiki>

[19:47] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: dangling pionters?</nowiki>

[19:48] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: pointers*</nowiki>

[19:48] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Heh.. I redownload stuff all the time even when I have been staying in the same region for hours.</nowiki>

[19:48] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I know there's been some viewer-side work on that with the group Andrew's involved in ... he's done the server-side code, but others were working on the viewer and caching was one of the systems they were improving</nowiki>

[19:49] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: OZ talked about taking a look at the viewer caching system.</nowiki>

[19:49] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: The two-char-per-cell xyzzytext systems are bad about having their textures swap in and out of the cache.</nowiki>

[19:50] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: xyzztext is old.....it's all about mesh nextext now. :)</nowiki>

[19:50] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: huh?</nowiki>

[19:50] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: I rez a sample</nowiki>

[19:50] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: yea, death to monospace fonts</nowiki>

[19:50] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Well, same basic system.</nowiki>

[19:50] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I can imagine those might not be efficent, Talarus</nowiki>

[19:50] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: heh</nowiki>

[19:50] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Speaking of viewer caching, how does the viewer distribute a GPU's VRAM between textures and other things?</nowiki>

[19:51] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I have no idea, Mona</nowiki>

[19:51] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Mostly handled by OpenGL</nowiki>

[19:51] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: you should be able to grab a copy of that</nowiki>

[19:51] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: start</nowiki>

[19:51] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: <262099.843750, 258605.171875, 32.545422></nowiki>

[19:51] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: stop</nowiki>

[19:51] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: start</nowiki>

[19:51] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: <262099.843750, 258605.234375, 32.261700></nowiki>

[19:51] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: the creator is rather brilliant.</nowiki>

[19:51] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: stop</nowiki>

[19:51] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: start</nowiki>

[19:51] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: <262099.843750, 258605.203125, 32.144447></nowiki>

[19:51] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: stop</nowiki>

[19:51] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Yeah, Nexii is pretty smart :)</nowiki>

[19:52] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: and very generous</nowiki>

[19:52] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Oh, it's Nexii's stuff. Okay.</nowiki>

[19:52] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: start</nowiki>

[19:52] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: <262099.843750, 258605.109375, 32.352028></nowiki>

[19:52] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: stop</nowiki>

[19:52] Simon Linden<nowiki>: that has no-copy scripts in it</nowiki>

[19:52] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: and no, can't take copy</nowiki>

[19:52] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: (although I still can't take a copy)</nowiki>

[19:52] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: He probably included it in his latest library release</nowiki>

[19:53] Simon Linden<nowiki>: someone needs to loosen the content permissions if you want to give it away</nowiki>

[19:53] Simon Linden<nowiki>: or set it up to buy for L$0</nowiki>

[19:53] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: it should be set as both</nowiki>

[19:53] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: start</nowiki>

[19:53] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: <262099.843750, 258605.546875, 32.559746></nowiki>

[19:53] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: stop</nowiki>

[19:53] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: start</nowiki>

[19:53] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: <262099.843750, 258605.296875, 32.340801></nowiki>

[19:53] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: buy for 0 works</nowiki>

[19:53] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: stop</nowiki>

[19:53] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Still need the content perms loosened to be useful</nowiki>

[19:54] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: I bought a copy</nowiki>

[19:54] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: perms are fine, actually...</nowiki>

[19:54] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: ok</nowiki>

[19:54] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: start</nowiki>

[19:54] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: <262099.843750, 258605.468750, 31.941525></nowiki>

[19:54] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: allow anyone to take copy is just fussy beyond belief.</nowiki>

[19:54] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: stop</nowiki>

[19:54] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: start</nowiki>

[19:54] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: <262099.843750, 258604.468750, 32.949810></nowiki>

[19:54] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: stop</nowiki>

[19:54] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yeah, let's not get started discussing the permissions system</nowiki>

[19:54] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: :P</nowiki>

[19:54] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: u want to allow only groups to take a copy?</nowiki>

[12:55] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is almost over</nowiki>

[19:55] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Yes, especially persistent animation perms :P</nowiki>

[19:55] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: thats like what i made and have been wearing over my head for a month. glad to see its catching on!</nowiki>

[19:55] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: oh lord</nowiki>

[19:55] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Sorry.. had to say it. It's been a sore subject with me lately. :P</nowiki>

[19:56] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: oh, oh, but : *PERMS* ... EXPERIENCE PERMISSIONS... any hope of new info about those? like... documentation of how they'll work or anything?</nowiki>

[19:56] Simon Linden<nowiki>: No news on that yet, Qie ... I don't even know myself</nowiki>

[19:56] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: okay... I'll just keep asking. :p Thanks Simon.</nowiki>

[19:57] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: I'd keep asking about SCR-4, but Kelly is going to beat me up if I do. :P</nowiki>

[19:57] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Nice ask-without-asking there, lol</nowiki>

[19:58] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: /me ignores Talarus</nowiki>

[19:58] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Oh well. I guess that's all I can think of until next week. >.></nowiki>

[19:58] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: See? P</nowiki>

[19:58] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: /me gigles</nowiki>

[19:58] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I'd liek to see it ,lol</nowiki>

[19:59] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: What's the status of VWR-13228, by the way?</nowiki>

[19:59] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: building lists including 80% of params that are just place holders is wastful with memory</nowiki>

[19:59] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Kelly beating me up? Would be humorous. :P</nowiki>

[19:59] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: I saw it mentioned by someone yesterday and it puzzled me.</nowiki>

[13:00] Meeter<nowiki>: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group</nowiki>

[20:00] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Oh, that's been around for a long time, but I saw a bunch of chat in SL groups recently about some object (also old?) that abuses that</nowiki>

[20:00] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yes, old as teh hills</nowiki>

[20:01] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Yeah its ancient</nowiki>

[20:01] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Is there any way to fix it? It seems like it could be a serious cause of grief.</nowiki>

[20:01] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Nope, and nope.</nowiki>

[20:01] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: an object that abuses group chat?</nowiki>

[20:01] Simon Linden<nowiki>: It can definitely be annoying, I'm sure. I'm not promising anything, but I'll look into it and see if we can't do something</nowiki>

[20:01] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: No, persistent anim perms</nowiki>

[20:01] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Wasnt there plans to add a feature to allow revoking of anim permissions?</nowiki>

[20:02] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: From old Magnum release notes... ""Thanks to a newly added capability the simulator can now report information about script permissions granted to objects within a region. A future viewer update will use this. "</nowiki>

[20:02] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: The problem is that script state saves perms.</nowiki>

[20:02] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Whirly, I think we should add "revoke permissions *even* if the item is back in the owner's inventory and not in-world".</nowiki>

[20:02] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: You'd have to go into saved assets and revoke it, and that would be a nightmare</nowiki>

[20:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That won't likely change, Talarus, but it should be possible to revoke them</nowiki>

[20:02] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: its so fun when somebody steally your anim perms and thant makes u "dance":)</nowiki>

[20:03] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: steals*</nowiki>

[20:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: revoke the ones in the region,I mean</nowiki>

[20:03] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Well, then there is no solution, because people will just rez copies of a script that holds someone's anim perms and animate them</nowiki>

[20:03] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: You revoke for that rezzed object, but not the stored asset</nowiki>

[20:03] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: "Also automatic revokement of "blocked" residents." so you just block them?</nowiki>

[20:03] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Then they just rez another copy</nowiki>

[20:04] Simon Linden<nowiki>: true, and it's not realistically possible to revoke it in the stored asset</nowiki>

[20:04] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: In theory, the viewer could block animations triggered by objects owned by a blocked resident</nowiki>

[20:04] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: I don't think there is a solution unless you get rid of stored perms in script state.</nowiki>

[20:04] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yep</nowiki>

[20:04] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Sadly, Qie, in theory there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, though... :/</nowiki>

[20:04] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: haha</nowiki>

[20:05] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: But it really is a TINY, and I meant TINY issue, considering the frequency of occurrence.</nowiki>

[20:05] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I need to get going .. thanks everyone for coming today</nowiki>

[20:05] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc simon</nowiki>

[20:05] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Thx Lindens</nowiki>

[20:05] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: ok Simon, thank you and take care.</nowiki>

[20:05] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Thanks Simon... and Baker and Kelly. Have fun all!</nowiki>

[20:05] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: thanks for the meeting..</nowiki>

[20:05] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Thanks Lindens!</nowiki>

[20:05] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Ciao Simon, Kelly, Baker</nowiki>

[20:05] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Thanks for coming everyone!</nowiki>

[20:05] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Thanks Lindens. best of luck with the SSA roll tomorrow ;)</nowiki>

[20:05] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Thanks for the good discussion and ideas</nowiki>

[20:05] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Have a great week!</nowiki>

 
[[Simulator_User_Group]]
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|}

Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.07.02

2013-07-02T20:35:07Z

Andrew Linden: Created page with "Simulator_User_Group {| | Prev 2013.06.25 | Next 2013.07.09 |} == List of Spe…"

[[Simulator_User_Group]]
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| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.06.25|Prev 2013.06.25]]
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== List of Speakers ==
{|
|Adamburp Adamczyk
|Andrew Linden
|ANSI Soderstrom
|-
|Baker Linden
|Duckie Dickins
|Faust Vollmar
|-
|Ima Mechanique
|Kelly Linden
|Kennylex Luckless
|-
|Kitto Flora
|Levio Serenity
|Lexbot Sinister
|-
|Lucia Nightfire
|Mona Eberhardt
|Nalates Urriah
|-
|Qie Niangao
|Rex Cronon
|Simon Linden
|-
|TankMaster Finesmith
|Techwolf Lupindo
|Vincent Nacon
|-
|Whirly Fizzle
|Yuzuru Jewell
|}

== Transcript ==
[12:01] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I can get going with the release news ...</nowiki>

[12:02] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Sorry for all 100 prime I has on floor here just now.</nowiki>

[12:02] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: heya simon, andrew!</nowiki>

[12:02] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Hello, Qie.</nowiki>

[12:02] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hi qie</nowiki>

[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I was, Friday and yesterday, but am back in the code mines today</nowiki>

[12:02] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: fun!</nowiki>

[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Anyway, no releases this week due to the US holiday</nowiki>

[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The info from last week is here : </nowiki>http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2013-07-01/td-p/2063041

[12:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: We should, at minimum, have new RC code next week on Wednesday</nowiki>

[12:03] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: new as in update or replacement</nowiki>

[12:03] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: yes</nowiki>

[12:04] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I was just in a meeting with the sunshine guys. They are trying to get a simulator ready for next week's RC that has some new server code (disabled) in preparation for that project's viewer.</nowiki>

[12:04] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Sorry, wrong link there. This is what's currently deployed: </nowiki>http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2013-06-24/td-p/2058449

[12:05] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: yeah, i heard there was some merge issues with the new region SSA cap handshake on the main grid</nowiki>

[12:06] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: baker!! :D</nowiki>

[12:06] Baker Linden<nowiki>: hello</nowiki>

[12:06] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Hello Baker!</nowiki>

[12:06] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hi baker</nowiki>

[12:06] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: yo baker, happy birthday btw dude</nowiki>

[12:06] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Similarly, "project interesting", which is some viewer-side work to complement some improvements in the server-side interestlist code, is still trying to fix all of their blocker bugs before they make the code public</nowiki>

[12:07] Baker Linden<nowiki>: hah, thanks</nowiki>

[12:07] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Heya Baker, Nice 'fro ;)</nowiki>

[12:07] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: hi chicken :)</nowiki>

[12:07] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: It's your birthday, Baker? Happy Birthday!</nowiki>

[12:07] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: they still have some crashes they're working on</nowiki>

[12:07] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: nice project name!</nowiki>

[12:07] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Well, it's not my real birthday, my SL birthday was 2 months ago though</nowiki>

[12:07] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Baker is a developer, not a chiken.</nowiki>

[12:08] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: meanwhile, what I'm working on right now is to get some data for comparison between pre-interesting and post-interesting performance for scene load</nowiki>

[12:08] Simon Linden<nowiki> has another item when you're done</nowiki>

[12:08] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: and also some scene load comparisons for the improvements in the HTTP texture download system that Monty Linden has been working on.</nowiki>

[12:08] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ok I'm done</nowiki>

[12:09] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Speaking of viewer work, we just threw the switch on a repo that is now publicly available: </nowiki>https://bitbucket.org/lindenlab/viewer-bear

[12:09] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: o.O</nowiki>

[12:09] Simon Linden<nowiki>: This has bug fixes that we released as a project viewer a couple of weeks ago</nowiki>

[12:09] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Andrew, I want to ask about ALM. What do you guys define as "reasonable performance" for someone who's running with it enabled?</nowiki>

[12:09] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Snapshot fixes! \o/</nowiki>

[12:09] Simon Linden<nowiki>: We'll be updating that download soon ... it just was merged with the latest viewer-release code</nowiki>

[12:10] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: ALM? Advanced Lighting Model? That seems pretty viewer-centric, no?</nowiki>

[12:10] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ALM = ?</nowiki>

[12:10] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Advanced Lighting Model.</nowiki>

[12:10] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: ALM is what used to be called lighting and shadows before materials</nowiki>

[12:10] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: I read on Nal's blog that LL believe 75% of the users can enable ALM and have reasonable performance.</nowiki>

[12:10] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Hrm... I'm not really the right person to ask.</nowiki>

[12:11] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Here: </nowiki>http://blog.nalates.net/2013/06/30/second-life-news-2013-27/

[12:11] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'd guess that performance with that will depend very much on what video card someone is using.</nowiki>

[12:11] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: Oz has access to those stats, ask at his UG tomorrow</nowiki>

[12:11] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: I think the "reasonable performance" is 10FPS or over with ALM enabled.</nowiki>

[12:11] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: on an empty sim? or?</nowiki>

[12:11] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: ...which is noy really that reasonable.... ;)</nowiki>

[12:11] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: Oz mentioned he thought it was higher than 10</nowiki>

[12:11] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: 10FPS... But where? On my land, which is relatively empty, i get 15-20.</nowiki>

[12:12] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: On other areas... It depends.</nowiki>

[12:12] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: In*</nowiki>

[12:12] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: ALM was enabled by default for a lot more cards with the release of materials though</nowiki>

[12:12] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: Right. Would be interesting to see the testing area for a "reasonable expirience"</nowiki>

[12:12] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: I got it turned on and I'm getting 15fps</nowiki>

[12:13] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Duckie, you're getting 15fps now... what were you getting prior?</nowiki>

[12:13] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: 7fps here, but I can't be bothered to disablee it.</nowiki>

[12:13] Kitto Flora<nowiki> sets Ultra, 257 range, shadows on, and gets 22 FPS</nowiki>

[12:13] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: the same....12 to 15...depending on which direction I'm looking</nowiki>

[12:13] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Big list of the cards ALM is enabled for now: </nowiki>http://community.secondlife.com/t5/English-Knowledge-Base/Materials-FAQ/ta-p/2051467<nowiki> (bottom of that page)</nowiki>

[12:13] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: I'd sooner just not login at all than turn off shadows at this point.</nowiki>

[12:13] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: having a mass of avatars in your view will kill performance no matter what system you have</nowiki>

[12:13] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: I have ALM enabled in 4.4.2 and I get 19+/- here</nowiki>

[12:13] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: True.</nowiki>

[12:13] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: processing avatar data is highly CPU intensive</nowiki>

[12:14] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: it's not an e-penish measuring contest. The point is that we kinda want people little behind the curve to be able to see materials, too.</nowiki>

[12:14] Kitto Flora<nowiki> wants 3-D</nowiki>

[12:14] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Heh, yeah I usually run with my settings low but I enabled shadows recently and really liked it.</nowiki>

[12:14] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Oz said the last stats they got showed about 30% of sessions had ALM enabled</nowiki>

[12:14] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: I think it'd be good if we could have a yardstick to define this reasonable performance of 10+fps, i.e. how many avatars in the region, how loaded the region should be, etc.</nowiki>

[12:14] Simon Linden<nowiki>: fwiw I go from 24 down to 14 enabling it</nowiki>

[12:15] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: So, what would you all consider to be "reasonable performance"? That is, where would you draw the line between "reasonable" and "unreasonable"?</nowiki>

[12:15] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: 20 FPS</nowiki>

[12:15] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: usually around 30 fps is considered reasonable, 24 is movie speed though</nowiki>

[12:15] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: I'd say 20fps too, that'd be a good number.</nowiki>

[12:15] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: 5FPS is already just a dream for me</nowiki>

[12:15] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: When key and mouse instructions go laggy and slugish.</nowiki>

[12:16] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Yeah, 20-30 FPS</nowiki>

[12:16] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: any lower and SL gets unusable. preferably should be 25+</nowiki>

[12:16] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: Thats a very subjective question. You'll get higher answers from combat folks than you will from others</nowiki>

[12:16] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i think 30fps sounds resonable, or at least 25. if u want 100pf that is kind of high:)</nowiki>

[12:16] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: At 20 or so, it's really smooth and precise (at least to my eyes).</nowiki>

[12:16] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Especially compared to 10 or less.</nowiki>

[12:16] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: If your client FPS is too low - time to buy new hardware, and its getting quite cheap now. Computer parts dealers eager to make sales :}</nowiki>

[12:17] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: i can get 170 fps in a simple seen with no avatars around and alm off</nowiki>

[12:17] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: well, doesn't the eye see only 26 frames per second or so anyways?</nowiki>

[12:17] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: and the rest is for movement...</nowiki>

[12:17] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Heh. Laptops aren't exactly upgradable.</nowiki>

[12:17] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: ^^</nowiki>

[12:17] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: I guess it also depends on what stuff you got turned on..I don't use the preset graphic settings.....I got the sliders all pushed to the right except sky......and a draw distance of 128 meters..one thing I don't have on is anisotropic filtering</nowiki>

[12:17] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i think we can see at around 30 fps</nowiki>

[12:17] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: slightly lower Lex, which is why cinematic rate is 24FPS, a little over average human perception</nowiki>

[12:17] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: 45.1FPS</nowiki>

[12:18] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: 24 is where you prevent the flicker effect, but smoothness of motion improves all the way up to ~100</nowiki>

[12:18] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Duckie, does anisotropic make much difference on your system?</nowiki>

[12:18] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: myself... I think 30 fps is reasonable and 10fps is not, so my line would probably be about 15 fps</nowiki>

[12:18] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: My Laptop can give me 35 40 FPS, but just now do m fan works bad so I run it only on low power and has 10 FPS wirh ALM and DD 256</nowiki>

[12:18] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Iys noy just a performance issue with ALM though. A lot of places look ugly with it enabled because there are too many local lights around. Plus you see half the grids feet broken because they still use invisiprim shoes. Also FXAA isn't as sharp as AA (my pet peeve lol)</nowiki>

[12:18] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: yeah it drops the FPS by about 4 or 5</nowiki>

[12:18] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: *not</nowiki>

[12:19] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: For me, anisotropic makes no difference. Neither does changing the antialiasing from 2x to higher values.</nowiki>

[12:19] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: so for avarage walking around and not doing anything specific, aroud 24 gives a reasonable expirience, i'd say.</nowiki>

[12:19] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: The combat crowd would probably say that 30 is the bare minimum</nowiki>

[12:20] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: If ALM is enabled, your AA is fixed. Changing the setting doesn't work.</nowiki>

[12:20] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: I see.</nowiki>

[12:20] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: I was talking to lex the other day though. I think user experience is down because SL really doesn't have gamers with high end gaming rigs as their target audience......most of us have rigs a few years old and it seems the target audience is sorta getting forgotten....it's why people like Rex is stil using a non mesh viewer. lol</nowiki>

[12:20] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: The combat crowd usually don't mind spending on hardware. The avarage home mom who like photography and shopping, does mind ...</nowiki>

[12:20] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Then if you disable ALM, AA is broken till relog heh</nowiki>

[12:20] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: you see it wrong, if wurope would have a better ping to the US, then LL would get much more gamers</nowiki>

[12:20] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: duckie. it has more to do with money:)</nowiki>

[12:21] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: wurope = europe</nowiki>

[12:21] Techwolf Lupindo<nowiki>: I can work with 10FPS update with 60FPS monitor rate. What bugs me is jitter, I get driven nuts with a fps update change of 1fps update every few seconds. Prevents smooth walkning and so on.</nowiki>

[12:21] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: the ping is always about 250-300</nowiki>

[12:21] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: unless you have AA disabled, which I do, heh</nowiki>

[12:21] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: well sure money also is a factor otherwise everyone would have gaming rigs</nowiki>

[12:21] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: It's not a coincidence that fashion and clothes shopping are so huge in SL, you know?</nowiki>

[12:22] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: Yeah theres too many variables for a concrete answer. Framerate for what kind of scene on what kind of hardware. I'd imagine most of SL is on Intel HD which is notorious for poor OpenGL support in general</nowiki>

[12:22] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Intel HD because of laptop chipset?</nowiki>

[12:23] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: Yeah faust..in general a large portion of SL's target audience are on rigs purchased at Best Buy that were on sale for $599 with a monitor...</nowiki>

[12:23] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Intel HD driver crashes make up 25% of Firestorms total crash rate. Id imaging v3 is similar.</nowiki>

[12:23] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: intel HD is getting much better OGL support lately</nowiki>

[12:23] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: Lot of consumer prebuilts use it too iirc</nowiki>

[12:23] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: Doesn't LL have statistics for all hardware used?</nowiki>

[12:23] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: the haswell CPU doesnt have any rendering issues in SL and supports OGL 4.0</nowiki>

[12:23] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: MMM... SL dont work well on a C64 either. Or a Vic20</nowiki>

[12:23] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: yes, lex, and yes, intel is quite popular</nowiki>

[12:23] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: Ah so they are getting better about it? Last I checked you couldnt use OGL newer than 2.1 because Intel refused to support it</nowiki>

[12:24] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Heh. Pretty soon we'll see people bitching about how SL can't run on a ZX Spectrum 48.</nowiki>

[12:24] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: </nowiki>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAZHJa91JHk

[12:24] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Or on a ZX81.</nowiki>

[12:24] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: SL on Apple 2</nowiki>

[12:24] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: the sandybridge supports up to 3.2, both ivebridge and haswell supports 4.0</nowiki>

[12:25] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Thats using a Crapple 2 as a monitor. SL is running on something else.</nowiki>

[12:25] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: The way i see SL, is like a pair of shoes... the shoes shall fit me, for me to enjoy it. And you don't tell the customer to get different feet, because then the customer gets a new store instead. So telling people "update your computer or GTFO" is throwing out customers..</nowiki>

[12:25] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: hey nowt wrong with a spectrum</nowiki>

[12:25] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: i learned to rpogram on one of those</nowiki>

[12:25] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: even got eh emulator for my pc</nowiki>

[12:25] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Spectrum owns all your bytes.</nowiki>

[12:25] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Well, I did run SL in a IBM a day ago, 1 CPY no 3D.</nowiki>

[12:26] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: how about a texas instruments calculator.... any chance for SL ?</nowiki>

[12:26] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: 1.9 FPS</nowiki>

[12:26] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: The home mom will shrug, get a tablet and play angry birds instead. Since i bet nobody has missed the computer sales going way down, no?</nowiki>

[12:26] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: and the Spectrum is hte only computer in th eworld it;s 100% legal to emualate, thank Sir alan sugar</nowiki>

[12:26] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: we need a slviewer with plugins for graphics. so today i can use a 2d rederer and in few hours a 3d :)</nowiki>

[12:26] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: mm angry birds.</nowiki>

[12:26] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: sorry I was late</nowiki>

[12:26] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: lol, these meetings get snowballed so easily</nowiki>

[12:26] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: we need a WebGL interface for SL too</nowiki>

[12:27] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: No worries, Vincent. I'm sorry my country's politicians are alive.</nowiki>

[12:27] Simon Linden<nowiki>: It's a tough problem, since there really is a huge spectrum of hardware that it would be nice to draw on ... from phones and tablets all the way to high-end machines</nowiki>

[12:27] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: well there wasn't any server updates and the only real news is tanks team accidently killed the stats server. :P</nowiki>

[12:27] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: @.@</nowiki>

[12:27] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: good going!</nowiki>

[12:27] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: To get SL on your calculator, enter 75, tap the bottom of the case 3 times, and turn it upside down.</nowiki>

[12:28] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: well, the reason this topic was brought up, I think, was that maybe LL's list of supported cards for ALM was too... liberal? such that some people with "supported" cards would end up with "unreasonable" performance.</nowiki>

[12:28] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Now when we ralk about bad and strange things, is LI calculation a srever thing?</nowiki>

[12:28] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: Sigh, Kitto. You aren't really getting it...</nowiki>

[12:28] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: The line between reasonable and unreasonable might be as high as 30, and as low as 10... it depends on who and what they're doing</nowiki>

[12:28] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: yeah, it is, i think its based on OGL level supported by the card</nowiki>

[12:28] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: and not performance</nowiki>

[12:29] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: shh kenny, first the DEVELOPERS news</nowiki>

[12:29] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: plus theres a bit of errors in the GPU table that are scewing the results</nowiki>

[12:29] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Well, as long as the user realises they can disable ALM whe needed, its not really a problem.</nowiki>

[12:29] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: *when</nowiki>

[12:29] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: yeah..usually when you say supported you have a reasonable expectation of performance..however in most games a card is support if it will work on low settings.......so maybe ALM was a bit too liberal</nowiki>

[12:29] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: however, the graphics settings allow you to turn things way down, so I guess people will just have to disable things as they see fit</nowiki>

[12:29] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but if we're supporting a card that most people think should not be in that list, we should update the list</nowiki>

[12:29] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki> whispers: but kenny is right, developers see : there is a Agenda on this OH</nowiki>

[12:29] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: whats acceptable is too subjective to really quantify anyways</nowiki>

[12:30] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: The fact disabling ALM breaks AA until a relog is a real pain though</nowiki>

[12:30] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki> whispers: </nowiki>https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Simulator_User_Group

[12:30] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: evolution or die, lol</nowiki>

[12:30] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Ah I see Whirly, so that would be a bug.</nowiki>

[12:30] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is half over</nowiki>

[12:30] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: sorry. i have to draw u all as cubes so I can get "resonable" fps:)</nowiki>

[12:30] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Yeah, its filed</nowiki>

[12:30] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: Evolution sometimes means you get adapted all too well to a narrow envoirment, and then YOU die. Meaning, Sl evolves out of their target audiences reach, and then it dies.</nowiki>

[12:31] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ok, anybody have a new topic for discussion (did I miss a question that went by?)</nowiki>

[12:31] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ?</nowiki>

[12:31] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i have</nowiki>

[12:31] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: See the Agenda : </nowiki>https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Simulator_User_Group

[12:31] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: the new llxorbase64</nowiki>

[12:31] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: oh boys</nowiki>

[12:31] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: doesn't seem to play nice with php:(</nowiki>

[12:32] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: (and girls)</nowiki>

[12:32] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: someone pick a goos xmas song</nowiki>

[12:32] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: good*</nowiki>

[12:32] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: I want to talk about what I think is bad LI calculation, so bad I see it as a bug.</nowiki>

[12:32] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: rex did you use the first php example when *Correct() got axed?</nowiki>

[12:32] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: in the wiki</nowiki>

[12:33] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Uh... llXorBase64()... this is the first I've heard of it. Kelly?</nowiki>

[12:33] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Look at torus here, one is 90 LI the other is same torus cutted up in bits, linked and 9 LI</nowiki>

[12:33] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i am not sure lucia</nowiki>

[12:33] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Rex: llXorBase64 doesn't innately have anything to do with php</nowiki>

[12:33] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: so you will have to ellaborate a bit.</nowiki>

[12:34] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: kelly if u want to communicate with an outside server that use php. it does</nowiki>

[12:34] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Both are material enabled</nowiki>

[12:34] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Simon, have there ever been thoughts of supporting FIPA-ACL and KQML for bots? Perhaps bridging LSL with these two languages?</nowiki>

[12:34] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: I think the point that lex and I are trying to make is that SL evolving...first with sculpties....then mesh...ALM..however the target audience is getting left behind....if everyone had to go out and get an Nvidia GTX 760 to enjoy material and lighting....I'd rather go play Diabo 3 or some other game now that I have a card that supports those games.....it's a hard sell to get someone to upgrade their gear and then not get drawn away by another game that looks quite a bit more pretty without the lag effects of not being graphic optimized since anyone can upload a texture here.</nowiki>

[12:35] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Mona - no, I've never heard of those ... do you have any links to check out?</nowiki>

[12:35] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Kennylex... that is interesting that the LI is smaller for the linked piece</nowiki>

[12:35] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: KQML: </nowiki>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge_Query_and_Manipulation_Language

[12:35] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: that's the price for using OpenGL render....</nowiki>

[12:35] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki> whispers: oh no, "they" increase now the LI for linked Prims :(</nowiki>

[12:35] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: FIPA-ACL: </nowiki>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIPA-ACL

[12:35] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: re what Kenny is talking about MATBUG-217</nowiki>

[12:35] JIRA-helper<nowiki>: </nowiki>http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MATBUG-217

<nowiki>[#MATBUG-217] Adding Normal/Specular breaks PE calculation causing objects to be deleted or returned due to SIM beeing full. - Second Life Bug Tracker</nowiki>

[12:35] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: The optimization paradox is a problem for anything with user-created content.</nowiki>

[12:35] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: actually, duck, a geforce 760 wont work with LL's viewer</nowiki>

[12:35] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: OpenGL doesnt have much to do with it</nowiki>

[12:36] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Rex: I can understand that you would pass data back and forth between outside systems and maybe pass some of that on to llXorBase64 - but you are going to have to be more specific about what it means that 'it doesn't play well' - what is the bug? What is it doing wrong, is it doing things wrong in LSL or PHP?</nowiki>

[12:36] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I wonder if the pieces are small enough that they get turned into boxes for the physics engine, or maybe just convex hulls</nowiki>

[12:36] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: SL would be an excellent tool for merging human agents and scripted autonomous agents for group decision making etc.</nowiki>

[12:36] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Thatt is 4 prims with 2 LI even they has PRIM as shape</nowiki>

[12:36] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: it does do much since it doesn't even use DX</nowiki>

[12:36] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: no, I think he's just talkign about the change in LI calc with complex primitive "Prim" and "non-prim" physics settings</nowiki>

[12:36] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: That is something we noticed with the Havok physics engine... it was sometimes cheaper to collide things as a list of convex pieces rather than a single concave shape.</nowiki>

[12:36] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: the LI calculation System will fail on Torus's</nowiki>

[12:36] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: other rpims go well</nowiki>

[12:36] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: but either way... too many polygons in the system</nowiki>

[12:37] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: but Torus is a bit "random"</nowiki>

[12:37] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: *combinations</nowiki>

[12:37] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: that is the thing. i don't know if the lsl fucntion is borker or the php is borked. but i don't get same result</nowiki>

[12:37] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: is borked*</nowiki>

[12:37] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: i thought all other prim shapes except the box got 1 LI in the revised LI calculations? Same with sculpts in a linkset?</nowiki>

[12:37] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i used the php example provide on the lslxorbase64 page</nowiki>

[12:38] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: kenny made a little torus with over 15.000LI, this will fill a whole sim and can block Sandboxes</nowiki>

[12:38] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I'd say the first example should be compatible with the current function and the second was compatible with *Correct</nowiki>

[12:38] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Mona - I can't foresee any work along those lines in the near-term. Perhaps the best way to work on bots or agents would be external systems running the interesting code, communicating back into SL via the LSL web interfaces</nowiki>

[12:38] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: someone kiill kenny....problem solved. :P</nowiki>

[12:38] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: no</nowiki>

[12:38] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Yes, my "it os over 9000 LI prim went over 15 000 LI</nowiki>

[12:38] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki> nods. Thanks Simon.</nowiki>

[12:38] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Lexbot, all legacy "extruded prim" shapes get an LI of 1... unless you use one of the new features that are tied to new LI calculations.</nowiki>

[12:39] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: theres a jira on the overflow bug</nowiki>

[12:39] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Mona - you could also, of course, connect into the viewer directly</nowiki>

[12:39] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: the jira is closed before the "good" comments are postet</nowiki>

[12:39] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: Oh, so materials would break the legacy calculation then?</nowiki>

[12:39] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Rex: Those code snippets were not done by me - and they look to be just using llXorBase64StringsCorrect not llXorBase64. I would imagine they would need to be fixed or modified to work with the new function's behavior</nowiki>

[12:39] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Yes, I think maybe materials are tied to the new LI.</nowiki>

[12:39] Simon Linden<nowiki>: anything with materials doesn't use the old calculation</nowiki>

[12:39] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: yes, they are</nowiki>

[12:39] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: They are</nowiki>

[12:40] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i modified them:)</nowiki>

[12:40] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: Its best to assume any new feature forces LI calc</nowiki>

[12:40] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Thats what Oz said on MATBUG-217 yeah</nowiki>

[12:40] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: The idea was that the legacy system of LI = 1 / prim was just incorrect. A torus really is more expensive than a box for some things.</nowiki>

[12:40] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: but why doeas material increase a torus up to 15.000LI and other prims get "as expected" ? there is some bork in the Torus</nowiki>

[12:40] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: it's best? I don't think it's "best", it means sculpts can't be used for whatever reason.</nowiki>

[12:40] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Rex: Without more details about what you are getting, what you expect, and why you expect I don't know how to help.</nowiki>

[12:40] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: more verts</nowiki>

[12:40] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: I can accept new LI, but when you need to build a torus out of 10 torus to lower the LI, then something is bad.</nowiki>

[12:40] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: a ring is even more complex than a torus</nowiki>

[12:40] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Rex: It is possible that PHP</nowiki>

[12:41] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I have doubts that a ring is more complex, lol</nowiki>

[12:41] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Rex: It is possible that PHP's base64 encoding also doesn't support nulls in the key and so behaves like llXorBase64StringsCorrect and you should use that.</nowiki>

[12:41] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: then cut him and make it hollow</nowiki>

[12:41] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I don't have an answer on that LI calculation, but it does sound funky</nowiki>

[12:41] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: But I am not a PHP expert.</nowiki>

[12:42] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: I think it's safe to say people don't understand the problem with increasing number of polygons instead of generalizing by the number of prims instead.</nowiki>

[12:42] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Kennylex, yeah. Really we should be using a list of convex shapes for collision under the hood... however that is a bit difficult to implement because of how list shapes interract with other features, such as scripted collision callbacks.</nowiki>

[12:42] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: if it was I'd had used it for the base of my 12 million LI experiment</nowiki>

[12:42] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: legacy content... scripts gotta know which pieces were hit</nowiki>

[12:42] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: Toruses / Rings are little monsters, especially on the physics side</nowiki>

[12:42] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: we had some tests with torusses with a high number of polygons and low numbers.... just by cutting the torus (and CTRL-Z) we got very different LI</nowiki>

[12:43] Object<nowiki>: Hello, Avatar!</nowiki>

[12:43] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: Hello Object with the UUID of c44e9ecd-856d-777a-3ae6-26d1e7c07885</nowiki>

[12:43] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: str00[34](df2389-0$%(SD9a)*%#P9#$Dert43L;Ddg), pass00[15](DB2XvJD9CAX4Ob2), result in sl: xor00[48](ICQAa05zaQlnZHBnC1tTbWgXeyZzZx0HJCpAe1F+OwAmVQ==), result in php: xor00[48](ICQAa05zaQlnZHBnC1tTbWgXeyZzZx0HJCpAe1F+fwZWPw==)</nowiki>

[12:43] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Well, but Vincent, poly count has surprisingly little to do with LI, unfortunately. As witness Kenny's diced-up tori scoring lower than a full torus, despite having many more tris.</nowiki>

[12:43] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: so very close rex.</nowiki>

[12:43] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: if a torus will get less Polygons, sometimes increases the LI about 200Prims, sometimes decrease the Primcount... on just the SAME cut every time</nowiki>

[12:43] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: My 4 prim hat become 270 LI for I did want use normal map to remove a torun simulare a seam.</nowiki>

[12:44] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Indeed. I suppose if I were to try to make an extruded shape object creation UI again, I'd limit it to convex shapes, and make it automatically line up multiple pieces for more interesting shapes.</nowiki>

[12:44] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: Will it mean that you can no longer build with the SL prims, if you intend to use materials? I mean, if you make a torus, expecting it to be 1 LI and it's suddenly something else, that is pretty content breaking... and the content being broken is the entire inworld building system (which is old, but not redundant)</nowiki>

[12:44] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: you're SOL when it comes to wanting materials to not use the new accounting</nowiki>

[12:44] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: Then thats simply wrong.</nowiki>

[12:44] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: that's not even.... correct</nowiki>

[12:44] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Right. Some prims are fine with Materials, some: forget it. They're just obsolete.</nowiki>

[12:45] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: but in regards to the penalty for just "Prim" and "non-Prim" combo's on legacy prims, that may need looking at</nowiki>

[12:45] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: and you actually have less polygon when you cut up the torus</nowiki>

[12:45] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: LL wants you to buy more land to use the new fancy content. shocker.</nowiki>

[12:45] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: if you vut a torus, you'll get different LI every time</nowiki>

[12:45] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: *cut</nowiki>

[12:45] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: </nowiki>https://my.secondlife.com/de/ansi.soderstrom/snapshots/51cdd971c20f7549d0000001

[12:45] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: The blue one, diferent LI even openind is ames size but diferent ways</nowiki>

[12:45] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: sides</nowiki>

[12:45] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: </nowiki>https://my.secondlife.com/de/ansi.soderstrom/snapshots/51cdd8e8b52dc71565000001

[12:45] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: </nowiki>https://my.secondlife.com/de/ansi.soderstrom/snapshots/51cdd892464be5310a000001

[12:45] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: unless you're gonna count the cap ends</nowiki>

[12:46] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Lexbot, basically yes. It is a push to use mesh... the creation pipeline isn't as nice (unless you like developing in 3rd party app and uploading) but the final result can be more optimized.</nowiki>

[12:46] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: and the poligons are DEcreasing, but the primcount is increasing about at least 100LI</nowiki>

[12:47] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: Materials or not, for the sake of enjoyment of SL, and keeping some building options in SL, prims must count as 1 LI. Or it's just becomming a way of getting rid of the prim building toold altogether, alienating people from SL.</nowiki>

[12:47] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: ^^</nowiki>

[12:47] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: yay</nowiki>

[12:47] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: save the Torus !</nowiki>

[12:47] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: don't forget spending money on uploads, winks</nowiki>

[12:47] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: hahah</nowiki>

[12:47] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: no temp uploads allowed eithers, lol</nowiki>

[12:48] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Wel, not in another 8 days heh</nowiki>

[12:48] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Part of what made SL so inviting to people was that they could create content within it. And now we're basically without any reasonably easy to use tools for in-world creation of up-to-date content.</nowiki>

[12:48] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: A push to use mesh? No, essentially a push to log out and stay logged out. One MAIN key aspect of SL is that you can build inworld, like with no other game/program. You want to get rid of that?? Really????</nowiki>

[12:48] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: well there's always cloudparty. :P</nowiki>

[12:48] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: I could not resist, sorry :D</nowiki>

[12:48] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: Someone must have fallen on their head, really hard.</nowiki>

[12:48] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: See what I mean about the UCC Optimization paradox?</nowiki>

[12:49] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Bear in mind, however, that the wackiness is all about Havok, not so much about rendering... so if you change physics type to Convex Hull (or None), most of the dopiness goes away.</nowiki>

[12:49] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: my pet-peeve in all this new accounting, you can optimize your mesh down to 1 prim download, and add a script and it goes up to 2 or 3 LI from server costs : /</nowiki>

[12:49] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: Lex... it's kinda a moot point because if people don't care about render weight, it's going to get laggy for their videocard</nowiki>

[12:49] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Actually, I agree with Lexbot. I like the prim-based building model and would like to see it maintained as an option.</nowiki>

[12:49] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: so people would come less because of that</nowiki>

[12:49] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: Thank you Andrew.</nowiki>

[12:49] Simon Linden<nowiki>: It sounds like you're conflating adding materials to SL with a grand scheme to re-design and shift the whole product. It's not that big ... it was a project that came out of the open source world, done with cooperation with Linden, and we tried to get it into the system as best as possible</nowiki>

[12:49] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Problem with convec hull, it remove function of prims.</nowiki>

[12:50] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: There's no point in optimizing SL while getting rid of the things that people find entertaining here, and things that make SL unique</nowiki>

[12:50] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Then you need 4 prims to make a roon and not only one as all do today</nowiki>

[12:50] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: we dont want to say there is something bad, we just want to say there is something with the Torus calculations and we should try to do it better</nowiki>

[12:50] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i don't think adding 1 script to a prim affects havok</nowiki>

[12:50] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: Yeah, script penalty is discouraging mesh in furniture... Or more correctly, its encouraging use of an un-linked normal prim to do the script container work.</nowiki>

[12:51] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Adding scripts can push the LI up</nowiki>

[12:51] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: adding material too</nowiki>

[12:51] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: thants not the point</nowiki>

[12:51] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I think he means it shouldn't, heh</nowiki>

[12:51] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: Simon- i bet it's not planned that way on the grand scheme, but it might be the effect, none the less.</nowiki>

[12:51] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: it certainly would be neat to do mesh building within SL</nowiki>

[12:52] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Converting things to convex hulls can make things go from 7 prims to 130</nowiki>

[12:52] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: maybe Second Life is long overdue for a sequel.... Third Life</nowiki>

[12:52] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: OK, colour me stupid here, but why doesn't a tiny prim that uses a tiny bit of a 1024x1024 texture get penalised and instead we see scripts being calculated into LI?</nowiki>

[12:52] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: i can see adding some to the LI for larger numbers of scripts, but 1 prim mesh with 1 script bumping up to 2-3 LI is just lame</nowiki>

[12:53] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Haha - what Vincent said</nowiki>

[12:53] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: heh yeah, stay penalising use of 1024 textures.</nowiki>

[12:53] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: *start</nowiki>

[12:53] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: I've seen thousands of objects that are full of small prims, each one with its own 1024x1024 texture.</nowiki>

[12:53] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: peeps will just continue to use 1 prim sculpts which are lame</nowiki>

[12:54] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: They cant go in and mess with existing builds, they can only make new features force LI, else alot of existing stuff would either break or suddenly use alot more than before</nowiki>

[12:54] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: not 1024 textures... but size of object vs size of texture.</nowiki>

[12:54] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i might understand if an prim had over 100 scripts in it, but for one scipt u increase li by one?</nowiki>

[12:54] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Yes Lex, exactly that.</nowiki>

[12:54] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: Its either content damage or continued lack of efficiency</nowiki>

[12:54] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: there should also be a "Maximum" on the LI, prims with a LI of 15.000and more will block Sandboxes just with ONE MicroPrim</nowiki>

[12:54] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: I cold not have it in correct size here</nowiki>

[12:54] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: A tiny object with a ridiculously large texture.</nowiki>

[12:54] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: On the 1024 texture issue... I think the viewer should just be made smarter -- it shouldn't download higher resolutions when it doesn't need them</nowiki>

[12:54] Simon Linden<nowiki>: There are a lot of different variables for "cost" ... and we've had a lot of discussions on how to account for them. Geometry, texture load, bandwidth, script cost, physics shape ... I think those are the big 5</nowiki>

[12:54] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: breach had some guns that used to lag you when they came into view because they were full of high res textures on tiny prims.</nowiki>

[12:55] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: ANSI a jira was filed to request overflow not carry over into other owner parcels</nowiki>

[12:55] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: </nowiki>https://my.secondlife.com/kennylex.luckless/snapshots/51d30714cb530c460a000001

[12:55] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: ANSI, yeah, I think something is genuinely broken at the high end of the LI calculations. They simply don't seem credible.</nowiki>

[12:55] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: doesn't the texture have LOD?</nowiki>

[12:55] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: so that really big objects could use 1024 and the viewer would download that resolution, but very small objects with high-res textures would only be downloaded at lower resolutions.</nowiki>

[12:55] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: griefers will not longer rez selfreplicable objects, the hide a microprim and the sandbox is closed</nowiki>

[12:55] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is almost over</nowiki>

[12:55] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: andrew. i think it should download them but as a resized version:)</nowiki>

[12:55] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: i asked the firestorm team for a TI calculation for finding a "texture impact" on objects</nowiki>

[12:55] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Your viewer chooses the LOD it requests, but I don't think that's tied to the render size, but instead distance (?)</nowiki>

[12:56] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Mona, I can show you a gorgeous mesh house build that every single texture is a 1024, even on the tiny teacups. It locks most people up dead in there. If you're anywhere near it, all textures just blur/sharpen/blur/sharpen over & over because it fills texture mem up. Its death trap of a build lol</nowiki>

[12:56] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: That is already the idea... but the code to figure out what resolution to download, and getting that resolution, is complicated (or so I understand from what other devs have said).</nowiki>

[12:56] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Strange, I got other LI results here than I got in Natoma.</nowiki>

[12:56] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: I thought LOD were based on the scale of the object on the screen than actual scale nor distance</nowiki>

[12:56] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Of course, Whirly. Each texture is, what, 4MB? Imagine having to download 100 such textures.</nowiki>

[12:57] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: smaller than that, Mona</nowiki>

[12:57] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: And storing them all in RAM.</nowiki>

[12:57] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: it's using JPEG2000</nowiki>

[12:57] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: may, ive got 6GB on my vid card :P</nowiki>

[12:57] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: Either way, with materials forcing a pretty alien Li calculation onto regular prims, it makes the generic curious SL newbie apprehensive of trying to build, and trying out new features. long term, productive residents nearly all started the same- poking some prims, trying some easy scripts, etc. Make that difficult, or hard, and you lose out on a whole lot of new future customers.</nowiki>

[12:58] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Hrm... good point Lexbot.</nowiki>

[12:58] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Shes right, its 4Mb (for 32 bit)</nowiki>

[12:58] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: oh right... 32</nowiki>

[12:58] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: not a single Guy Faulkes mask among those protestors, shames</nowiki>

[12:58] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Whirly, up to how much RAM does the viewer allocate to textures?</nowiki>

[12:58] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: this is a protest?</nowiki>

[12:59] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: vinc, the prim protest effigy on teh ground</nowiki>

[12:59] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: oh them</nowiki>

[12:59] Simon Linden<nowiki> first thought it was a slow rez griefer attack</nowiki>

[12:59] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Maybe should have kept the Materials interface script-only, to keep the innocent from getting hurt by it. ;)</nowiki>

[12:59] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: they don't count</nowiki>

[12:59] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Yexture sizes/memory: </nowiki>http://community.secondlife.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/721i430BA9577AA33BE6/image-size/original?v=mpbl-1<nowiki>&px=-1</nowiki>

[12:59] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: :P</nowiki>

[12:59] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: occupy prim street! whoo !</nowiki>

[12:59] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: I made that when Mesh did come to be funny</nowiki>

[12:59] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: *texture</nowiki>

[12:59] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: lol simon</nowiki>

[12:59] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Thanks.</nowiki>

[12:59] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: or materials for mesh objects only?</nowiki>

[12:59] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: a creafully grief</nowiki>

[12:59] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: well, materials are actually very nice for simple box prims, etc.</nowiki>

[12:59] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: They are free to copy now</nowiki>

[12:59] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: *care</nowiki>

[13:00] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: I mean, we all know that building in prims isn't effective, or the best way to generate content for SL, but, it starts people on wanting, and then climbing upwards to the point where they want to learn software that will help making better content. Building in prims also creates better understanding of the effort put into making something, and gives a better understanding of pricing of goods others have for sale, etc.</nowiki>

[13:00] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: Mona, depends on your Graphics card</nowiki>

[13:00] Simon Linden<nowiki>: It seems better to be able to slap materials onto a cube and look at them ... that lets you do basic walls and such</nowiki>

[13:00] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: bad, bad news for stuff like hollow spheres, tori, etc.</nowiki>

[13:00] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: i'll still build the next 20 years with prims, i have no need (and no mind) about meshes.... but i dont want to "forget" the most nice prim, which is a torus</nowiki>

[13:00] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: orr.... I got a better idea</nowiki>

[13:00] Meeter<nowiki>: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group</nowiki>

[13:00] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: get rid of regular Prims</nowiki>

[13:00] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: sculpty too</nowiki>

[13:00] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: :D</nowiki>

[13:00] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: nope</nowiki>

[13:01] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: naked city</nowiki>

[13:01] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I see what you did ther</nowiki>

[13:01] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Not gonna happen in SL, I"m sure</nowiki>

[13:01] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: the worst part of it is that Materials contaminates the *entire* linkset, not just the thing to which it applies.</nowiki>

[13:01] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: The last "Save the prim " cube is a mesh</nowiki>

[13:01] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: Agreed, Quie</nowiki>

[13:01] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: yeah not gonna happen but it's an ideal way to do it in a "video game" contents</nowiki>

[13:01] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: it's not predictible, for a regular curious user.</nowiki>

[13:02] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: You drop prims, you drop the core of SL. Sculpties on the other hand... Its a shame theres so many years worth of content built on them, they are monstrous little things that basically can't be got rid of now.</nowiki>

[13:02] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: SL Tribbles as it were</nowiki>

[13:02] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: basically what I'm really saying is...</nowiki>

[13:02] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: faust. automatic sculptie to mesh conversion:)</nowiki>

[13:02] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: Third Life</nowiki>

[13:03] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: iam lucky that iam not a newbie, i would get ILL about the inconsistence about some calculations of LI..... cutting a 1LI torus, 200LI, pressing CTRL-Z, 108LI</nowiki>

[13:03] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: Rex thats complicated by the sculptie-specific modelling tricks to get LODs right and whatnot</nowiki>

[13:03] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Rex, My tool can convert sculpt to mesh.</nowiki>

[13:03] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: Well if LL comes up with a new mesh building system inworld that is both logical and useful, i'm of course all up for that...</nowiki>

[13:03] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Third Life would have to be much better... but migrating content from SL to TL would be... very hard if not impossible.</nowiki>

[13:03] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i have tool than can convert sculpties to objects. which can be easily converted to mesh:)</nowiki>

[13:04] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: The shapes and appearances could be migrated (probably) but not scripts.</nowiki>

[13:04] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: TL is already patented, its the dreamworld</nowiki>

[13:04] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Prims are creative, so are material, so I rather has a bit lag than lose ability to use peims with materials</nowiki>

[13:04] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: That is, the changes required to fix the script engine would make it impossible to migrate scripts to a new system while keeping them functional.</nowiki>

[13:04] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I'm going to leave with a Rod Humble quote:</nowiki>

[13:04] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Q: Is there going to be a Second Life 2?</nowiki>

<nowiki>A: It's not going to be for a few years, but it'll be something next gen. What we'll call it, I don't know.</nowiki>

[13:05] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Well, Mesh in SL is awfully crippled by the representation, locking the model geometry to the object itself. So can't just tell an object to assume a different Mesh geometry, as with prims & sculpties.</nowiki>

[13:05] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: i cant alter a mesh with a script, so there is ALWAYS a need for prims in addition with working on scripts</nowiki>

[13:05] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: I'll wait for 3rd Dimension with Rift</nowiki>

[13:05] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: hey Simon, can i ask yo ua quicl questin?</nowiki>

[13:05] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc simon</nowiki>

[13:05] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: quick question*</nowiki>

[13:05] Simon Linden<nowiki>: fwiw from </nowiki>http://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Will-Second-Life-have-a-second-life-4616560.php

[13:05] Simon Linden<nowiki>: sure, what's up?</nowiki>

[13:05] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: is tha whiteboard still in boston reception?</nowiki>

[13:05] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: the one where resiodents who visited could sign</nowiki>

[13:06] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: sf, not boston</nowiki>

[13:06] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Whatever happens, OpenSom and that Cloud junk can not beat SL.</nowiki>

[13:06] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: Heh. I hope those fixes include the utf-8 truncation that makes hmac functions impossible without base64 hijinks, Andrew</nowiki>

[13:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: ah, right, I've never been to the Boston office</nowiki>

[13:06] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: sorry, i meant sf</nowiki>

[13:06] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: not boston</nowiki>

[13:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: You know, I'm not sure where that is</nowiki>

[13:06] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: The whiteboard still exists, but it is not in a spot that is easily accessible by visitors.</nowiki>

[13:06] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: *CENSORED*</nowiki>

[13:06] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: I want HMAC in an LSL function :-(</nowiki>

[13:07] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: it was, at one point, the star attraction i think</nowiki>

[13:07] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: that, and joppa's ballet dancing</nowiki>

[13:07] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: You know that storage area at the end of raiders of the lost ark......that's where the whiteboard went.....along with phil linden's avatar. :P</nowiki>

[13:07] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: Ima there is an implimentation, it's just not fast.</nowiki>

[13:07] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: Get to the Joppa!</nowiki>

[13:07] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: I'd like to thank the Lindens listening, while i was on my soapbox ;)</nowiki>

[13:08] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: For my purposes I'd be just as satisfied with SHA-256 as I would with HMAC-SHA1 to be honest</nowiki>

[13:08] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: Faust, I mean a singl llHMAC() type function</nowiki>

[13:08] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: oki, thanks to the lindens for listening to residents things</nowiki>

[13:08] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Thanks everyone for comign today</nowiki>

[13:08] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Thanks Simon.</nowiki>

[13:08] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: and not laughing</nowiki>

[13:08] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Thank you Lindens.</nowiki>

[13:08] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc simon</nowiki>

[13:08] ANSI Soderstrom<nowiki>: at</nowiki>

[13:08] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: Ima yeah it would be nice but I've been told its impossible due to deep rooted stuff in LSL</nowiki>

[13:08] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: thanks guys</nowiki>

[13:08] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Thanks Simon, Lindens... have fun all.</nowiki>

[13:08] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: now go eat your lunch lindens. :P</nowiki>

[13:08] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Tc and have fun,.</nowiki>

 
[[Simulator_User_Group]]
{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.06.25|Prev 2013.06.25]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.07.09|Next 2013.07.09]]
|}

Simulator User Group

2013-07-02T20:32:30Z

Andrew Linden:

Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.06.25

2013-07-02T00:15:03Z

Andrew Linden:

[[Simulator_User_Group]]
{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.06.18|Prev 2013.06.18]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.07.02|Next 2013.07.02]]
|}

== List of Speakers ==
{|
|Adamburp Adamczyk
|Alice Klinger
|Baker Linden
|-
|Conrad Aluveaux
|Drace Karaki
|Duckie Dickins
|-
|Faust Vollmar
|Fenix Eldritch
|Honza Noyes
|-
|Ima Mechanique
|JayR Cela
|Jonathan Yap
|-
|Kennylex Luckless
|Levio Serenity
|Lexbot Sinister
|-
|Mona Eberhardt
|Nalates Urriah
|Qie Niangao
|-
|Rex Cronon
|TankMaster Finesmith
|Vincent Nacon
|-
|Whirly Fizzle
|Yuzuru Jewell
|Zanibar Reyener
|-
|}

== Transcript ==
[11:58] JayR Cela<nowiki>: LOL :_)</nowiki>

[11:58] Zanibar Reyener<nowiki>: drace, come over here :3</nowiki>

[11:58] Drace Karaki<nowiki>: nuuuu</nowiki>

[11:58] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: sit next to us >.></nowiki>

[11:58] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: A lot of new faces today</nowiki>

[11:58] Drace Karaki<nowiki>: im just tagging along Dx</nowiki>

[11:58] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Hello, Baker.</nowiki>

[11:58] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: relax... those chairs...err... tables won't hurt you</nowiki>

[11:58] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Hey Baker!</nowiki>

[11:58] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: aw your place got taken >.> oh well</nowiki>

[11:58] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: I hope this isn't another off topic day of please help us with griefers. lol</nowiki>

[11:59] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[11:59] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Hello, Jpnathan and Inara.</nowiki>

[11:59] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: well first we'd go over their news and then topic they wish to talk about.... the after that, table is open for all topic</nowiki>

[11:59] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: then*</nowiki>

[11:59] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: yeah....related to server development...</nowiki>

[12:00] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: yup :)</nowiki>

[12:00] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Hey everyone, I'll be the lone linden here. Unfortunately, most questions y'all pose to Simon and Kelly I will be unable to answer</nowiki>

[12:00] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: heya Baker</nowiki>

[12:00] Meeter<nowiki>: Welcome to the Server User Group</nowiki>

[12:01] JayR Cela<nowiki>: *waves* hi there Baker :_)</nowiki>

[12:01] Zanibar Reyener<nowiki>: hi baker :o</nowiki>

[12:02] Baker Linden<nowiki>: So instead, today I want to link everyone a nice little article by the SF Gate (one of our newspapers) where they interviewed Rodvik.</nowiki>

[12:02] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hello everybody</nowiki>

[12:02] Baker Linden<nowiki>: First, here are the deploys for the week: </nowiki>http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2013-06-24/td-p/2058449

[12:02] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Hello, Rex.</nowiki>

[12:02] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Don't ask me much else about it -- I've been working on group ban stuff :)</nowiki>

[12:02] Zanibar Reyener<nowiki>: and tony stark...with an afro? has joined us</nowiki>

[12:02] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hi yuzuru</nowiki>

[12:03] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: yeah, took you a while</nowiki>

[12:03] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: muhaha!</nowiki>

[12:03] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[12:03] Baker Linden<nowiki>: well, I've been working on refactoring the system that the group ban will be</nowiki>

[12:03] Zanibar Reyener<nowiki>: oh wizard had</nowiki>

[12:03] Zanibar Reyener<nowiki>: hat*</nowiki>

[12:03] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: Awww, no amusingly massive name for the new xor function</nowiki>

[12:03] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: and a pony</nowiki>

[12:03] Baker Linden<nowiki>: oh, sorry about that, it's not the SF Gate -- it's the San Francisco Chronicle: </nowiki>http://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Will-Second-Life-have-a-second-life-4616560.php?t=80d571fac747b02379

[12:03] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Hia Barer and all random folks... and that linden.</nowiki>

[12:03] Baker Linden<nowiki>: it's definitely a worthwhile read</nowiki>

[12:04] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Baker</nowiki>

[12:04] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: lol. afro. would be funny though:)</nowiki>

[12:04] Honza Noyes<nowiki>: Hi</nowiki>

[12:04] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Here's the SF Gate article -- but it's just some screen shots of second life over the last 10 years. </nowiki>http://blog.sfgate.com/techchron/2013/06/22/a-photo-history-of-second-lifes-10-years-more-from-linden-lab-ceo/<nowiki>#13454-14</nowiki>

[12:04] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: is it like the BBC article that asked if Second Life was still here or not?</nowiki>

[12:05] Baker Linden<nowiki>: I'm unsure, Duckie. I haven't read that article</nowiki>

[12:05] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: ye olde british biased corporation</nowiki>

[12:06] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: this is good. now we have required reading before coming to class. i mean group meeting:)</nowiki>

[12:06] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: muhaha!</nowiki>

[12:06] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Well, at least the required reading happens in-class :P</nowiki>

[12:06] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: popquiz too;)</nowiki>

[12:07] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: and maybe we have to fill out test forms too >.></nowiki>

[12:07] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: so that's all the news for today, Baker?</nowiki>

[12:08] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Yeah, Feel free to ask questions; just be aware I'll most likely answer them as "I don't know the answer to that" or "I can't answer questions regarding that"</nowiki>

[12:08] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: alrighty everyone, give him your most difficult questions</nowiki>

[12:08] Zanibar Reyener<nowiki>: Sure thing!</nowiki>

[12:09] Baker Linden<nowiki>: However, I can take questions / comments / musings about group ban related stuff</nowiki>

[12:09] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: who is tegh biggest practical joker in the ll office</nowiki>

[12:09] Honza Noyes<nowiki>: group ban?</nowiki>

[12:09] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: Hows that coming along?</nowiki>

[12:09] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: the biggest practical joker*</nowiki>

[12:09] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: I do have one question about group but isn't about the ban itself though</nowiki>

[12:09] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: will there be new things we can pass to llSetPirimiviteParams*() for normal and specular maps ?</nowiki>

[12:09] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: I'll save it for later</nowiki>

[12:09] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Probably me, Adam, which is quite sad</nowiki>

[12:09] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: Honza, banning people from being able to join rejoin a group..like spammers and such</nowiki>

[12:10] Zanibar Reyener<nowiki>: So I guess you probably don't have a general idea of when Server Side Baking will be fully implemented?</nowiki>

[12:10] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Tiger: I don't know the answer to that.</nowiki>

[12:10] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Quick question; why do I drop down to 1 FPS when my inventory is loading?</nowiki>

[12:10] Honza Noyes<nowiki>: Ah.</nowiki>

[12:10] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Zanibar, no, sorry</nowiki>

[12:10] Baker Linden<nowiki>: this is the easiest user group ever</nowiki>

[12:10] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: i'll trade hints with you later in private then</nowiki>

[12:10] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: Tiger... there will be but they're saving that for Phase 2</nowiki>

[12:10] Zanibar Reyener<nowiki>: Alrighty</nowiki>

[12:10] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: I heard rumors that it comes on summer >.></nowiki>

[12:10] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: material is still going through phase 1</nowiki>

[12:10] Baker Linden<nowiki>: I'm sorry that I'm quite worthless at this</nowiki>

[12:10] Baker Linden<nowiki>: at least I have an afro now!</nowiki>

[12:10] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: u have over 9000 items kennylex;)</nowiki>

[12:10] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: At least nobody is chasing you around dressed in a barbecue sauce bottle avatar..... :)</nowiki>

[12:10] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: @ kenny, the code that processes the inventory data is on the same thread as the rendering</nowiki>

[12:11] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: Afro birdie, amazing.</nowiki>

[12:11] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: No worry Baker, at least we don't have a large grill for your size</nowiki>

[12:11] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: worthless is good, just look at Torley :)</nowiki>

[12:11] Baker Linden<nowiki>: So the group ban stuff is coming along slowly -- I'm currently refactoring existing code so that I can better implement group related functionality</nowiki>

[12:11] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: heheheheheheheh toely wasn't impressed by my joke once</nowiki>

[12:12] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: don't sweat baker. is not like your pixels can get hurt</nowiki>

[12:12] Honza Noyes<nowiki>: Speaking of groups, there is about 42 groups per avatar limit, right?</nowiki>

[12:12] Baker Linden<nowiki>: I believe so, Honza, that sounds right</nowiki>

[12:12] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: i often hit that limit :P</nowiki>

[12:12] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: plus or minus zero</nowiki>

[12:12] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: yes, each account can join a max of 42 groups</nowiki>

[12:12] Honza Noyes<nowiki>: Is there any reason for such limit?</nowiki>

[12:12] Zanibar Reyener<nowiki>: Oh! Are there any plans to help with the horrible groups performance? (ie the constant group chat failures and extreme difficulties with managing large groups))</nowiki>

[12:13] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: Do you think there would be much lag from having to parse a very large list of banned avatars when someone joins a group? I mean it would have to confirm everyone upon join request that they weren't on the list to begin with.</nowiki>

[12:13] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: sometimes i cant even open the group chat to certain groups :P</nowiki>

[12:13] Baker Linden<nowiki>: from the lore that I've heard, at one point we decided to limit the number of groups one could join -- so we picked the answer to the universe for that number :)</nowiki>

[12:13] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: what is the max size for the group banning thing baker?</nowiki>

[12:13] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: honza - yes, its performance related in regard to land - each time you enter a parcle/region it checks what groups you are goined to to set the apperoperate permissions for rezzing, scripts, etc</nowiki>

[12:13] Honza Noyes<nowiki>: Right. Thank you.</nowiki>

[12:14] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: the more groups, the more to check...</nowiki>

[12:14] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Baker, the limit was 20 for a long time, then it was increased to 42, fyi</nowiki>

[12:14] Baker Linden<nowiki>: ahh yes, Jonathan, you are correct!</nowiki>

[12:14] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: was 10 before that, iirc</nowiki>

[12:14] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: :D</nowiki>

[12:14] Baker Linden<nowiki>: A group ban list will be capped at 500 ban entries per group -- this is the standard for parcel bans, etc</nowiki>

[12:14] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: must it be capped?</nowiki>

[12:14] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: it must.</nowiki>

[12:15] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: I have a feeling some group will pass that limit</nowiki>

[12:15] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: Everything needs to be capped on SL, imagine the server loads</nowiki>

[12:15] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Baker, I have a suggestion for group bans: record the date the person is banned so that information can be displayed in the viewer later on. that way when the list is full old bans can be removed first</nowiki>

[12:15] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Zanibar, the group ban stuff will not touch chat failures, and I'm unsure what "difficulties of large groups" means. Could you elaborate on that please? I might be able to answer given more specifics.</nowiki>

[12:15] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: all the entries in this ban list are uuid of other groups?</nowiki>

[12:15] Ima Mechanique<nowiki>: Jonathon, it was 25, 15 before that ;-)</nowiki>

[12:15] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: so... this means we need to able manage the ban list</nowiki>

[12:15] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: Yeah, being able to find the oldest bans first would be really nice since a cap is indeed necessary</nowiki>

[12:16] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: what if the cap scaled based on the number of members?</nowiki>

[12:16] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: that sounds like an awesome idea</nowiki>

[12:16] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: I like that idea, Duckie</nowiki>

[12:16] Zanibar Reyener<nowiki>: I know in a couple of groups that have a lot of people in them, I fail to load their group information a good chunk of the time. Aside from that I can't really elaborate much.</nowiki>

[12:16] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Duckie, I don't think there will be much of a lag hit, as there will only be 500 entries in the group ban list (initially), and it'll be a very simple mysql call that shouldn't be an issue</nowiki>

[12:16] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: Would it be possible to see when last the person on the ban list was logged on? Like if they were still part of the group? So group admins/script can clean the ban list now and then from avatars that no longer log in, and make room for new bans?</nowiki>

[12:17] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: Zanibar, what viewer are you using?</nowiki>

[12:17] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: or something like a time-based ban?</nowiki>

[12:17] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Vincent, I suppose it doesn't, but for the sake of conformity (for now), I'm capping it at 500 -- which is the size of all other mute / ban lists</nowiki>

[12:17] Zanibar Reyener<nowiki>: Firestorm</nowiki>

[12:17] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: or better yet....automagically remove avatars from the ban list if their accounts were disabled/deleted</nowiki>

[12:17] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: that too</nowiki>

[12:17] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: @ baker, whatll happen then the list is full?</nowiki>

[12:17] Baker Linden<nowiki>: I also agree that some groups will pass that limit. I'll be including dates of when you banned residents, so you can always delete oldest ones first if need be.</nowiki>

[12:17] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: they cant add more, or the oldest will get auto kicked from the list?</nowiki>

[12:18] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: woo</nowiki>

[12:18] Zanibar Reyener<nowiki>: Of course I guess it doesn't help that firestorm is like 20 something versions behind the official viewer :P</nowiki>

[12:18] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: yay, dates \o/</nowiki>

[12:18] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: How many residents can be put in a parcel's (or region's) banlist?</nowiki>

[12:18] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: I know that's been an issue with estate managers......I've had to in the past go through some of the ban lists to see if griefer accounts were still active or not to make room on the ban list</nowiki>

[12:18] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: 3 versions behind</nowiki>

[12:18] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Rex, The entries in the list will be agent uuids. If the agent tries to join again, it'll check that list and see if they are on that list -- if so, they can't rejoin</nowiki>

[12:18] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: aye</nowiki>

[12:18] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: we could have a dynamic cap, so like calculate a number for max ban list entries that go with how many people in the group, if that number goes above 500 it raises</nowiki>

[12:18] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Vincent, time based bans are not being added to the initial launch</nowiki>

[12:19] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: oh?</nowiki>

[12:19] Honza Noyes<nowiki>: Will there be any new LSL functions related to groups?</nowiki>

[12:19] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: thats too bad, some people most often just need to chill for a while</nowiki>

[12:19] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: time based parcel bans were always glitchy.....I would think the same would happen to time based group bans</nowiki>

[12:19] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: yeah</nowiki>

[12:19] Baker Linden<nowiki>: it'll tell you when you banned them, and I will design the system to (hopefully) easily add that functionality if it seems like something a lot of people want</nowiki>

[12:20] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: it could also show when they logged in last</nowiki>

[12:20] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: I still like this percentage cap growth along with number of members</nowiki>

[12:20] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: will we be able to impost a ban time limit? ie, ban a person from joining for an hr?</nowiki>

[12:20] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: with LSL interface to it, many of those special-case features could be implemented externally</nowiki>

[12:20] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Are there any plans to make a parcel's ban list bigger?</nowiki>

[12:20] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Tank, when the list is full, I have a couple options -- return an error saying the list is full (which will probably be in v1), or remove the oldest entry from the list (which I admit is dangerous -- I don't like the idea of manipulating your ban list)</nowiki>

[12:20] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: It would also be nice if the viewer UI allowed you to delete more than one ban entry at a time. A use case would be to delete the 20 (or whatever) oldest ones in one go.</nowiki>

[12:20] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: How do you determine what functionality is requested by lot of people? Since there is no official way to send suggestions or make function requests.</nowiki>

[12:20] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: if we sent bribes of starbucks gift cards to the LL office addressed to baker linden, would they get to you? :D</nowiki>

[12:20] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: true</nowiki>

[12:21] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: if its dangerous, have a question about it "Banlist full Do you want to remove last entry?"</nowiki>

[12:21] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: :p</nowiki>

[12:21] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Conrad, that's not a bad idea -- but that probably won't get into the initial release</nowiki>

[12:21] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: I'll post you the pranksters bible for that input</nowiki>

[12:21] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: baker. what if ll didn't have to store the ban list. what if the gorup owner could store the ban list on a outside server?</nowiki>

[12:21] Baker Linden<nowiki>: yeah, that's a good idea too</nowiki>

[12:21] Baker Linden<nowiki>: I'd rather have it just say "remove an entry from your list"</nowiki>

[12:22] Baker Linden<nowiki>: also, I'm trying to figure out how to better clean our databases, so for example, once a week, any agents that are permabanned by us would be removed from the list (as they'll never be able to log in with that account again)</nowiki>

[12:22] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: 'remove random entry?' :P</nowiki>

[12:22] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[12:22] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: thats vaguer than Conrads suggestion of wording.</nowiki>

[12:22] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: muhaha!</nowiki>

[12:22] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: If you remove an entry the viewer could display what name was eliminated</nowiki>

[12:22] Zanibar Reyener<nowiki>: (???)</nowiki>

[12:22] Baker Linden<nowiki>: haha, that's a good check box for the group ban floater</nowiki>

[12:22] Baker Linden<nowiki>: "I'm feeling lucky!"</nowiki>

[12:22] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[12:22] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: "i'm feeling lucky" button would remove a random enitry from the banlist</nowiki>

[12:22] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: thats chaos</nowiki>

[12:22] Zanibar Reyener<nowiki>: Certainly some audit logs for the group owner/officers would be nice...</nowiki>

[12:23] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Baker, I'm wondering if the idea of master accounts (that has also been documented by Ciaran Laval) would help with keeping troublemakers and their alts out of SL (although that'd probably render a certain product utterly obsolete).</nowiki>

[12:23] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Mona, what's the idea? I haven't heard of it</nowiki>

[12:23] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Here it is, Baker: </nowiki>http://sl.governormarley.com/?p=616

[12:23] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: if we had a lsl function that gave group invites on to people we wanted than the groups wouldn't need a ban list. we could use our own list</nowiki>

[12:24] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: invites only to *</nowiki>

[12:24] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: im not sure how good an idea of being able to import lists of residents to the ban list is...</nowiki>

[12:25] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: oh Rex, thats a nice idea, then we dont need group inviter bots</nowiki>

[12:25] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: we get group invite spam when we visit an area anyway, so thats not an issue scripts can do it :P</nowiki>

[12:26] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Lex, I have toyed with the idea of time-based bans -- I'm designing the system so that could be added if necessary, but I think the group ban lists would be filled much faster if it were used for a "bad resident -- time out for you!" list -- The idea of the group ban system would be for suppressing really obnoxious griefers.</nowiki>

[12:27] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: And a certain group of SL feed & forum trolls that make thousands of alts as sockpuppets to bully and harass users, Baker.</nowiki>

[12:27] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Ahh, I see Mona, more of a steam / blizzard paradigm -- you log in with an account, and your avatar has a completely separate name</nowiki>

[12:27] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: baker. there r quite a few of them:)</nowiki>

[12:27] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: It's already used in a sense, but then policed by one of the admins. That then go offline and leave drama behind.</nowiki>

[12:27] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: we'd use the time ban a bit in our support groups... then the ban list of the repeat offenders</nowiki>

[12:27] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Time-based banlists as an addition to a permaban list</nowiki>

[12:27] Baker Linden<nowiki>: hmm</nowiki>

[12:28] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: if you go 'steam', and allow only one account connected from an ip that will break alot of things >.> people on same Lan wont be able to enter, and people cant dual-client on their alts</nowiki>

[12:28] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: can you include a scrip to give otu an ice cream too maybe?</nowiki>

[12:28] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: I have to say that LSL group invitation function is long past due. I'm really not sure why the ban thing is better to do first (it seems both harder and less generally useful)</nowiki>

[12:28] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: banning by ip doesn't work:(</nowiki>

[12:28] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: but it's hard to keep track of, lets say, a 3 day ban, where you want someone to just step back from the computer a bit and get over their immidiate angstyness</nowiki>

[12:28] Baker Linden<nowiki>: that actually might be better, actually. One list for permabans, one for time-based -- more complex, but probably better, since the time-based ones would be constantly cycling new residents, meaning the cap of 500 may not be reached as quickly</nowiki>

[12:29] Honza Noyes<nowiki>: Does Second Life support IPv6?</nowiki>

[12:29] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: no</nowiki>

[12:29] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: why would it need?</nowiki>

[12:29] Honza Noyes<nowiki>: Just curious.</nowiki>

[12:29] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: majority still uses ipv4, and we have converters, so ipv6 can use ipv4</nowiki>

[12:29] Zanibar Reyener<nowiki>: IPv6 is inheriently more secure than IPv4</nowiki>

[12:29] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Well Conrad, I was just thinking about how it would work -- I am not on the team that would be responsible for figuring all that out :)</nowiki>

[12:29] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Honza, I'm unsure</nowiki>

[12:29] Honza Noyes<nowiki>: For example, I am moving onto college in september. Not sure what IP I will have.</nowiki>

[12:30] Alice Klinger<nowiki>: ok i have a question. since some of my llemail servers break get blackholed alot since 2 weeks, is there a limit how many llemail calls a sim can handle at once or... some other changes with this function recently?</nowiki>

[12:30] Honza Noyes<nowiki>: And not really looking forward to share my connection with uh, some dick who can get the IP banned.</nowiki>

[12:30] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is half over</nowiki>

[12:30] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: i would be miserable if i couldn't dual log</nowiki>

[12:30] Alice Klinger<nowiki>: sorry unrelated but um... would appreciate any hints</nowiki>

[12:30] Zanibar Reyener<nowiki>: most IPv6 installations work in dual stack mode Honza. This means they both use a IPv6 and IPv4 or tunnel through IPv4/6</nowiki>

[12:30] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: Id like one list of bans, maybe a column of ban time, where permabanned was denoted in some wya, and others would jsut display the amount ot fime left?</nowiki>

[12:31] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: I think it's safe to say this IP ban is going right over Baker's head as it may not be something he can work on</nowiki>

[12:31] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Good question Alice! But alas, I don't know :(</nowiki>

[12:31] Zanibar Reyener<nowiki>: Granted, IPv6 does remove the explicit need for subnetting</nowiki>

[12:31] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Tank, I'd probably split it between to tabbed panels. Might as well organize the data in a way that's easy to parse :)</nowiki>

[12:31] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: i havent had any issues with llEmail() servers lately</nowiki>

[12:32] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Alice, dunno about that one, but just checking: you know about moving the llEmail server across a sim border and back again when it's too wedged for reset, right?</nowiki>

[12:33] Alice Klinger<nowiki>: yes but with 450 servers and half of them breaking with each sim restart it gets tedious...</nowiki>

[12:33] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: oh, that's not a nice ratio :(</nowiki>

[12:33] Alice Klinger<nowiki>: yes, i am about to get a nervous breakdown</nowiki>

[12:34] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: o.O</nowiki>

[12:34] Alice Klinger<nowiki>: and i had maybe one or two breaks before the server code update 2 weeks ago</nowiki>

[12:34] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Haha, yeah, the IP ban is not something I'm working on -- there's another group of people for that</nowiki>

[12:34] Honza Noyes<nowiki>: Who would be the correct Linden to contact regarding that Baker?</nowiki>

[12:35] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Alice, I'll be posting these notes on the SUG wiki page, and I'll be sure to ask Simon and Kelly to read this stuff so we can get better answers for you next week.</nowiki>

[12:35] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: and i suppose i should go to a scripter group with llInviteToGroup(), and llRemoveFromGroup(), also we could get a scripted way to ban people</nowiki>

[12:35] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: I've always thought IP bans aren't particularly effective, as they can cause "collateral damage" and are easy to bypass. One can even change their router's IP on the fly if they know how.</nowiki>

[12:35] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Alice, I haven't seen that with my llEmail stuff (but I only have maybe 20 or so, and they're very lightly loaded, so not much info there).</nowiki>

[12:35] Alice Klinger<nowiki>: that would be great, thank you :-)</nowiki>

[12:35] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Honza, I really don't know. If you come to the Thursday Beta Server User Group, you might be able to get more info on it</nowiki>

[12:35] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: IP bans would be pretty useless</nowiki>

[12:35] Baker Linden<nowiki>: or next UG here, next week.</nowiki>

[12:36] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: Eh, i always thought ip/etc bans were useless if someone really tries to get around it.</nowiki>

[12:36] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Yeah, it's easy enough to spoof an IP</nowiki>

[12:36] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: icecold. if u can convince kelly to do it...</nowiki>

[12:36] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Where is the rest of the server team today?</nowiki>

[12:36] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: payment info is most likely the only realiable way to keep someone out permanently..</nowiki>

[12:36] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: or to get a new IP off your router from your ISP...</nowiki>

[12:36] Baker Linden<nowiki>: They came to the San Francisco office today, and our VP of Technology took all the programmers out to lunch.</nowiki>

[12:36] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: I dont know what convinceing has to be don there, group invites are already managed by bots, so having it scripted just eases the pain on doing what is already being done</nowiki>

[12:36] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Does the master account idea sound good, Baker? There was also a JIRA for it back then.</nowiki>

[12:36] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: damn... no wonder!</nowiki>

[12:36] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: A lot of peoples IPs change every 24hrs anyway</nowiki>

[12:36] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: :P</nowiki>

[12:37] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: oh .....you mean...</nowiki>

[12:37] Baker Linden<nowiki>: I drew the proverbial short-stick today :) By that, I mean I said "I don't know how useful this meeting will be, but I'll stay and hang out with everyone"</nowiki>

[12:37] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: Sorry to hear that, Baker</nowiki>

[12:37] Honza Noyes<nowiki>: That is nice of you.</nowiki>

[12:37] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Lex, that's correct</nowiki>

[12:37] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: personally, I'd be hiding whoopee cushions aroudn the office Baker</nowiki>

[12:37] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[12:37] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Just start with banning all IP to free proxies.</nowiki>

[12:37] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: stuff the boss's office with packaging nuts!</nowiki>

[12:38] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: a nice empty office, and a prankster .............</nowiki>

[12:38] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Baker, you can get a company credit card and take some local Residents out to lunch, to make up for being here today. :)</nowiki>

[12:38] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[12:38] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: hahaha</nowiki>

[12:38] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Mona, I'm sure it would help increase some security, but I don't know if it's on the table of 'things we're adding to SL soon' :( Though I could be totally wrong in that! :)</nowiki>

[12:38] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: if theres any local residents</nowiki>

[12:38] Baker Linden<nowiki>: hahah, Adam.</nowiki>

[12:38] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: for example i live on the other side of the planet :p</nowiki>

[12:38] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Tank, I'd prefer to keep my job here :P</nowiki>

[12:38] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: hehe</nowiki>

[12:38] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: so do we!</nowiki>

[12:39] Baker Linden<nowiki>: aww thanks!</nowiki>

[12:39] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: alrighty, I still got a question related to the group thing but not about the ban itself though</nowiki>

[12:39] Baker Linden<nowiki>: sure, Vincent</nowiki>

[12:39] Baker Linden<nowiki>: I'll try to answer it</nowiki>

[12:39] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: There's another added benefit: it'd enable LL to manage inactive accounts much like Gameforge and Innogames do... And even make people who wish to remain for loooooong periods out of SL, but keep their accounts, pay a fee to LL for maintenance of their inventories.</nowiki>

[12:39] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: is there any reason why people can't reuse the same group that was disbanded by mistake?</nowiki>

[12:39] Baker Linden<nowiki>: as in the same name?</nowiki>

[12:39] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: as in reuse the same group name that was already used</nowiki>

[12:39] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: yup</nowiki>

[12:40] Zanibar Reyener<nowiki>: This dragon's head is starting to hurt a lil, think I'm gonna bail out.</nowiki>

[12:40] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Hmm.. I seem to remember this being asked before. I thought that if there were no members in a group, after 24-48 hours it would be deleted. I wonder if the cron job or whatever it is that would handle that is working anymore....</nowiki>

[12:41] Baker Linden<nowiki>: or if it's not deleting everything</nowiki>

[12:41] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: aw Naga</nowiki>

[12:41] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: The groups do still get deleted but no-one can use that name again I think</nowiki>

[12:41] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: The group should auto-delete if there are less than 3 members</nowiki>

[12:41] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Well, but the name is somehow "reserved" forever. I think it's always been that way.</nowiki>

[12:41] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: I think after the group is disbanded, it stay on the database which kept from being re-created again</nowiki>

[12:41] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Yeah</nowiki>

[12:41] Baker Linden<nowiki>: yeah, that's probably the case, Vincent.</nowiki>

[12:41] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: thus not fully deleted</nowiki>

[12:42] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Whirly, is there ajira related to that?</nowiki>

[12:42] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: I remember one being resolved as intended behavior</nowiki>

[12:42] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: Another somewhat related question: did ll remove server side support for group proposals and voting?</nowiki>

[12:42] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Hmmm not sure. Looking. Though it has always been this way as far as I know</nowiki>

[12:42] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: yeah but the question is... why?</nowiki>

[12:42] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: well I do know if you were the creator of a group you left, you can get reinstated by submitting a support ticket.</nowiki>

[12:42] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: maybe there was a reason long ago but what about today?</nowiki>

[12:42] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: I can see why. It could cause problems with others reusing old group names.</nowiki>

[12:42] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: well why does the group names kept reserved, and all that? after many many years eventually we'll run out of good group names because they all taken >.></nowiki>

[12:42] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: cus the programer of it coded it that way, sincent :P</nowiki>

[12:43] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: well I've lost my group and I still need it back</nowiki>

[12:43] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: proposals and voting got killed a long time ago. not sure it ever actually worked.</nowiki>

[12:43] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: Wouldnt surprise me if impersonation is the reason. Little silly, but it wouldn't surprise me.</nowiki>

[12:43] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: So that is why I see lots of * and stars, etc. in group names</nowiki>

[12:43] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: u need a new programemer tank:)</nowiki>

[12:43] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: yeah</nowiki>

[12:43] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Baker, has LL ever considered charging inactive users for maintaining their inventories?</nowiki>

[12:43] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: programmer*</nowiki>

[12:43] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: hey lets slow down, Baker's head will explode >.></nowiki>

[12:43] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: How would you charge them--they are inactive</nowiki>

[12:43] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: it should be no different than whom got the group first than being true creator</nowiki>

[12:43] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Mona, I don't know. I'm just a programmer :)</nowiki>

[12:44] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: They should bring you free lunch tomorrow. :)</nowiki>

[12:44] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: muhaha!</nowiki>

[12:44] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Also, if you start charging them then you need to hire more staff to deal with the resulting problems</nowiki>

[12:44] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: That would be chos lol</nowiki>

[12:44] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: *chaos</nowiki>

[12:45] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Jonathan: Email them and tell them that they have two options: either log back into SL (and I mean in-world, not SL feeds or forums) or lose their accounts OR choose a fee scheme for inventory maintenance.</nowiki>

[12:45] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: There probably already is a "long term storage" system that moves really inactive accounts to a secondary db</nowiki>

[12:45] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Baker, is it possible ffor linden to do something that can allow user to export own build converted to Collada?</nowiki>

[12:45] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: And moves them back when they log in again</nowiki>

[12:45] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: well....I would think inactive users get their inventories shuffled to the inactive cold storage asset server where items you haven't rezzed in a very long time go.</nowiki>

[12:45] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: sounds about right</nowiki>

[12:45] Baker Linden<nowiki>: I'm unsure if there's anything I can do about fixing group names, but I can at least check it out. I'm not promising anything other than I'll ask around and see what the reason was and if there's anything we can do to change that</nowiki>

[12:45] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Mona: Resident X is sick, etc. and cannot get an email--I can think of many other legitimate reasons why such an email would not be seen in a timely fashion</nowiki>

[12:45] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Kenny, Export a prim build or something to collada?</nowiki>

[12:45] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: alrighty, thanks Baker</nowiki>

[12:46] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki> dares baker to switch coffee to de-caff while the office is mepty</nowiki>

[12:46] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: yeah eventually we'll see really dumb group names like "mmffxx244" >.> because people wont have good names to use</nowiki>

[12:46] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: empty*</nowiki>

[12:46] Object<nowiki>: Hello, Avatar!</nowiki>

[12:46] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: That's an extension of what Gameforge does w.r.t. inactive users.</nowiki>

[12:46] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: We already have that issue with new account names IceCold</nowiki>

[12:46] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Yes, I has a script that export to .bin, but it is no good</nowiki>

[12:46] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: Yes i know about that :P</nowiki>

[12:46] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: i see the silliest account names as of yet</nowiki>

[12:47] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Adam, there is no such thing as decaf here :P</nowiki>

[12:47] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: *CENSORED*</nowiki>

[12:47] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: Even mine is a bit silly, but Displaynames fixed that and i could get my old name back</nowiki>

[12:47] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: So I think if script can do that, would it be posible for LL to make prim mesh converter?</nowiki>

[12:47] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: Yeah the whole resident debacle was kinda shortsighted, especially with display names having no uniqueness, pushing people to have to keep highlighting the resident name due to impersonation.</nowiki>

[12:48] Baker Linden<nowiki>: There's a script that can convert prim builds to collada?</nowiki>

[12:48] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: kennylex. u would also need mesh to prim converter?</nowiki>

[12:48] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: why do we need a prim-mesh converter? that usually results in horribly optimized mesh models that are actually worse in some cases than their primmed versions</nowiki>

[12:48] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: I can't see a JIRA on reusing disbanded group names baker</nowiki>

[12:48] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Thanks whirly -- I have a note to make one after UG is over :)</nowiki>

[12:48] Baker Linden<nowiki>: in case you couldn't find any</nowiki>

[12:49] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Allow the name to be used after N amount of time has passed</nowiki>

[12:49] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: I thought the whole reason to mesh importing was that we can break off from primmed builds and the pain of sculpts :P</nowiki>

[12:49] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Hah! As soon as I said that .... </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-2708<nowiki> ( Disbanded/discontinued group names should be automatically expired for reuse )</nowiki>

[12:49] JIRA-helper<nowiki>: [#MISC-2708] Disbanded/discontinued group names should be automatically expired for reuse - Second Life Bug Tracker</nowiki>

[12:49] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Thanks Whirly :)</nowiki>

[12:50] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: Another somewhat related question: did ll remove server side support for group proposals and voting?</nowiki>

[12:50] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: Shame Kelly isn't here, else I'd be my usual UG-leech self and plug an old feature request JIRA I'd like to have, now that we're in the wind-down minutes. =p</nowiki>

[12:50] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Oh theres a Linden quote on that as to why too</nowiki>

[12:50] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: i know they were still readable for a w while after LL stoped allowing new ntries</nowiki>

[12:50] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Kenny, as much as it would be amazing to have a prim -> mesh converter, I'd be wary of what meshes would come out of it -- see Conrad's reasoning for that.</nowiki>

[12:50] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Sever sode has been dead since about 2007</nowiki>

[12:50] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: *side</nowiki>

[12:50] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: but you could still read them</nowiki>

[12:51] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: i never really used the votes and proposals on groups, i used 3rd party poll websites always in group notices XD</nowiki>

[12:51] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Faust, plug it anyway so we can have it in the notes so we can talk about it next week!</nowiki>

[12:51] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: I think thats why they were poofed away, no one needs it</nowiki>

[12:51] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: there are tools that convert prims to mesh already</nowiki>

[12:51] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: Yes, but why <.<</nowiki>

[12:51] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: Haha, ok. I'd say its even lower on the totem pole of things than the one I lodged last week though; </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1632

[12:52] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1146<nowiki> (Closed Group Proposals NOT SHOWING in Group Voting History )</nowiki>

[12:52] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: i'd love a prim-to-mesh converter. Not to use the meshes as they are, but to be able to build things in mesh, fitting to scale and shape of already existing content. Although it would be only possible for your own objects, so it would be sort of limited... but still</nowiki>

[12:52] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Mesh studio does that</nowiki>

[12:53] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: Honestly though building in mesh sorta takes away from SL. You have to do it outside of SL ..log in..upload to test...log out....build some more in blender/maya/whatever....log back in..upload to test.......do you think we'll get client-side mesh building tools some day?</nowiki>

[12:53] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: the problem is many people use prim to mesh converters to just cheaply drill in primmed builds into mesh models, or even "copybotting", and it just results in more horribly optimized higher land impact and rendering cost "craps" so to say</nowiki>

[12:53] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: we need plugin mesh editing tools:)</nowiki>

[12:53] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Lex: especially to fit with already-existing *terrain*. and yeah, Mesh studio is okay for that (with a lot of work)</nowiki>

[12:54] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: Duckie, why do you have to log out? i run Blender fine together with SL</nowiki>

[12:54] Levio Serenit whispers<nowiki>: you could say the same thing about sculptys but that never stopped them : D</nowiki>

[12:54] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: :p</nowiki>

[12:54] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: ..or being off in photoshop making textures :D</nowiki>

[12:54] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: a prim to sculpt converter is however useful</nowiki>

[12:55] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: drill in several prims int oone</nowiki>

[12:55] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: into one*</nowiki>

[12:55] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Duckie, I'd hate to say it this way, but I highly doubt that will happen -- I know that logging in and out constantly while fixing the mesh in maya is inefficient, but I think that any in-viewer tool we'd design would not be as fully features as that of blender, maya, max, etc. I think it would just take too long to implement it to a degree that it would be as fully features as any of those tools -- I think improving the content pipeline between those products and SL would be a better use of our time.</nowiki>

[12:55] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is almost over</nowiki>

[12:55] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: drill several prims into one, on the expense of having abundant useless vertices to draw, for one prim. I thought we were moving away from that.</nowiki>

[12:56] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: Oh now that we talk about mesh editing inworld, we could have power to modify or deform already existing mesh models :P</nowiki>

[12:56] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: err, i meant 1 LI</nowiki>

[12:56] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: or even better, deform the mesh to fit your body</nowiki>

[12:56] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: once u have a mesh u can remove extra vertices</nowiki>

[12:56] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: mesh deformer or avatar 2.0 or improved avatar1.5... something</nowiki>

[12:57] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Conrad, I'm unsure if that's on the table right now, but I think it would definitely be useful now that the materials viewer is in the wild</nowiki>

[12:57] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: Well, i always thought of the terrain editing tool as a type of mesh-shaping deformer, it would be nice to have that function for regular mesh too.</nowiki>

[12:57] Fenix Eldritch<nowiki>: Quickie topic for the logs...</nowiki>

[12:57] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: i dont think having LL reimplement blender inside SL is a very good use of their developer's time</nowiki>

[12:57] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: Yup. and I have a friend who likes to be more... bulky on SL, and all the clothes are made for "anorexic" avatars lol none of it fits on him</nowiki>

[12:57] Fenix Eldritch<nowiki>: Last week there was talk about seated avatars adding their physics to the shape of vehicles - and how that can be undesirable at times. Conversation seemed to end on asking if llVolumeDetect could be augmented to throw land collisions.... I just wanna point out that wouldn't help, since a volumeDetect vehicle still adds the avatar to what it considers the collision shape of the whole object.</nowiki>

[12:57] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: full adoption of materials is still a few months off :P</nowiki>

[12:58] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: As in to Firestorm viewer?</nowiki>

[12:58] Baker Linden<nowiki>: I don't know enough (well, anything really) about the mesh system, so this is just me speculating about what might or might not be possible</nowiki>

[12:59] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: Baker, you could ask people about it, or nudge people to do things towards mesh deforming at least... it is a very needed feature :P</nowiki>

[12:59] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: yes, conrad</nowiki>

[12:59] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: and ooh.. :p i cant wait to have materials on Firestorm</nowiki>

[12:59] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Fenix, Thank you for that note about llVolumeDetect. I'll make sure everyone else looks at it, and hopefully we can get back to you next week with better clarification</nowiki>

[12:59] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Poor Tank needs a rest. he just merged in CHUI :D</nowiki>

[12:59] Fenix Eldritch<nowiki>: Sadly, I almost never am able to make these meetings, so I'll be watching the logs</nowiki>

[12:59] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: oh god CHUI</nowiki>

[12:59] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Conrad, I know -- when I first got here, I wanted to start improving mesh related systems.</nowiki>

[12:59] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: >.></nowiki>

[12:59] Baker Linden<nowiki>: I like building tools</nowiki>

[13:00] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Material made my 4 prim hat to be 270 PE</nowiki>

[13:00] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: i still have a file left to work on in the CHUI merge</nowiki>

[13:00] Baker Linden<nowiki>: and tool chains</nowiki>

[13:00] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Fenix, we'll keep the logs updated for you so you can hopefully get some resolution on it next week</nowiki>

[13:00] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group</nowiki>

[13:00] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: Hey tank, how will CHUI look on Firestorm, we could talk about that later after this meeting if you not busy</nowiki>

[13:00] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Thank you Baker</nowiki>

[13:00] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: i havent a clue</nowiki>

[13:00] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: it doesnt even compile yet</nowiki>

[13:00] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: Aw.</nowiki>

[13:00] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Thx Baker</nowiki>

[13:00] Fenix Eldritch<nowiki>: But in following up with that, maybe this could be an opportunity for a more well rounded feature - the ability to alter the collision sphere of agents in general. Sortal like how the new AO works.</nowiki>

[13:01] Fenix Eldritch<nowiki>: Thanks Baker!</nowiki>

[13:01] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: But whats the idea? is it gonna be like the Viewer 3.0?</nowiki>

[13:01] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: thank you, Baker.</nowiki>

[13:01] Baker Linden<nowiki>: ok, I'm going to call the meeting now. I really appreciate all of your patience with me not knowing much about most of your questions.</nowiki>

[13:01] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Thanks baker :)</nowiki>

[13:01] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: itll be a hybrid of what we have now and CHUI</nowiki>

[13:01] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: Oh good :P</nowiki>

[13:01] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc baker</nowiki>

[13:01] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: I did not like the CHUI on Viewer 3.0 to be honest >.></nowiki>

[13:01] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: thc for your timme and info, baker ?</nowiki>

[13:01] Baker Linden<nowiki>: I'll probably see some of you on Thursday, others next week. Feel free to stay and chat! I gotta go grab some lunch now :) Take care everyone!</nowiki>

[13:01] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: Take care Baker, thanks for putting up with us</nowiki>

[13:01] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: We appriciate your patience with us, Baker</nowiki>

[13:01] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: ...and baker, thank you for working on the group bans. This is something we really need and appreciate you doing this so much</nowiki>

[13:01] Fenix Eldritch<nowiki>: Have a good one!</nowiki>

[13:02] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: See you Baker</nowiki>

[13:02] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: u were the sacrificial lamb today. kind of :)</nowiki>

[13:02] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: Thanks baker. I hope they take you out to lunch tomorrow for drawing the short stick today. :)</nowiki>

[13:02] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Neithher did I, Conrad. It was nigh on impossible to see notifications for IMs and all.</nowiki>

[13:02] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: Yup</nowiki>

[13:02] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: and ever since CHUI is out, the "oops wrong box" accidents increased lol</nowiki>

[13:02] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: ...sometimes resulting in hilarious and awkward scenes</nowiki>

[13:02] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: It's almost as if CHUI was designed by the V2's designers.</nowiki>

[13:02] Conrad Aluveaux<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[13:03] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: Spose I should go home and poke at some code incase one of my two requests go through successfully, haha</nowiki>

[13:03] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: its almost like CHUI was origonally a FS UI port that got mangld later on :P</nowiki>

[13:03] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: they coppid a fair amount of our UI design, then modified it</nowiki>

[13:03] Vincent Nacon<nowiki>: that sounds kinda spot on</nowiki>

[13:03] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Ice, I wouldnt worry. I don't think the interface will be much different. One idea that was thrown around was to have a pure CHUI style UI for the V3 login mode though, for those that prefer it.</nowiki>

 
[[Simulator_User_Group]]
{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.06.18|Prev 2013.06.18]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.07.02|Next 2013.07.02]]
|}

Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.06.18

2013-06-19T15:56:43Z

Andrew Linden: Created page with "Simulator_User_Group {| | Prev 2013.06.11 | Next 2013.06.25 |} == List of Spe…"

[[Simulator_User_Group]]
{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.06.11|Prev 2013.06.11]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.06.25|Next 2013.06.25]]
|}

== List of Speakers ==
{|
|Adamburp Adamczyk
|Andrew Linden
|Baker Linden
|-
|Duckie Dickins
|entity x2
|Faust Vollmar
|-
|Grim Thursday
|Hexapoda
|Honza Noyes
|-
|Immaculata Catronis
|Inara Pey
|Kelly Linden
|-
|Kitto Flora
|Levio Serenity
|Lexbot Sinister
|-
|Lucia Nightfire
|Mona Eberhardt
|Motor Loon
|-
|Petr Topaz
|Qie Niangao
|Rex Cronon
|-
|Talarus Luan
|Tiberious Neruda
|Whirly Fizzle
|-
|Yuzuru Jewell
|-
|}

== Transcript ==
[12:01] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Hello</nowiki>

[12:01] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: How'd you do that......</nowiki>

[12:01] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: well yea that was the idea : )</nowiki>

[12:02] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: html-on-a-prim</nowiki>

[12:02] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Hello, Kelly.</nowiki>

[12:02] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: no its not html</nowiki>

[12:02] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Thats a grab of FS skin too</nowiki>

[12:02] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Simon is gonna miss today, but I'll give it a couple more minutes to see if Andrew can make it.</nowiki>

[12:02] Petr Topaz<nowiki>: Hello Kelly</nowiki>

[12:03] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Hello, Inara.</nowiki>

[12:03] Inara Pey<nowiki>: It's Baker!</nowiki>

[12:03] Inara Pey<nowiki>: Hey, Yuzuru!</nowiki>

[12:03] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Hello Baker.</nowiki>

[12:03] Faust Vollmar<nowiki> finally made it to one of these things for once. =o</nowiki>

[12:03] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Hello, Baker.</nowiki>

[12:03] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: i finally had the right shift to get her in person instead of a text viewer</nowiki>

[12:04] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: glad you could make it \o/</nowiki>

[12:04] Baker Linden<nowiki>: hello everyone!</nowiki>

[12:11] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: Vantelli is online.</nowiki>

[12:05] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: All right, we can get started then, since I don't see Andrew.</nowiki>

[12:05] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Heya Baker</nowiki>

[12:05] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: As always this weeks release schedule is in the forums: </nowiki>http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2013-06-17/td-p/2050797

[12:05] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Today Andrew's improved interest list was rolled out to the main channel, and since it was on all RCs already it is now on every region.</nowiki>

[12:06] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Andrew is having issues with the internets</nowiki>

[12:06] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: </nowiki>https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_Server/13<nowiki>#13.06.07.277164</nowiki>

[12:06] Baker Linden<nowiki>: he's trying to hop on</nowiki>

[12:06] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Tomorrow all RCs will get an updated version of the maintenance release that was out briefly last week.</nowiki>

[12:06] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Aaaaaand here he is! Hi Andrew!</nowiki>

[12:06] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Sorry I'm late.</nowiki>

[12:06] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: Yay</nowiki>

[12:11] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: Andrew</nowiki>

[12:06] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I was having technical difficulties.</nowiki>

[12:07] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Hey Andrew, I was just going over the server releases for this week.</nowiki>

[12:07] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I don't think Simon can make it this week.</nowiki>

[12:07] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Continue Kelly, you know more about it than I do</nowiki>

[12:07] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Ah, I'm sorry my country's government members are alive.</nowiki>

[12:07] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki> passes andrew a slice of birthday cake</nowiki>

[12:08] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: The updates in the maintenance channel this week include re-enabling the new llReturnObjectsByID function but with some more restrictions (can't return objects owned by the parcel owner or estate managers, similar to llReturnObjectsByOwner), a crash fix and some fixes for HTTP-In url confusion (BUG-2833)</nowiki>

[12:09] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: That is all the release news I have so I'll hand it back to Andrew.</nowiki>

[12:09] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Ok.</nowiki>

[12:10] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: someone give me a c/p of what I missed? heh</nowiki>

[12:10] Motor Loon<nowiki>: Looking forward to play with the obj. return functions, very cool you guys put that in.</nowiki>

[12:10] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: wewere jsut handing out hte birthday cake lucy</nowiki>

[12:10] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Actually, I'd like a copy of the transcripts from the very beginning of the meeting so I can add them to what I'll copy.</nowiki>

[12:10] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: That's right. SL launched around... June 23rd (?) 2003.</nowiki>

[12:11] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: So we're nearly at 10 years.</nowiki>

[12:11] Honza Noyes<nowiki>: I have got a question about object inventory, while having an object with many items in it, the loading of its contents take incredibly long. Is there any way to speed this up?</nowiki>

[12:12] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Yes, probably. What sort of numbers of items are you talking about?</nowiki>

[12:12] Honza Noyes<nowiki>: Arround 300, I would say.</nowiki>

[12:12] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: And... maybe there should be a limit to the number of object items.</nowiki>

[12:12] Honza Noyes<nowiki>: It is mostly animations.</nowiki>

[12:13] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Sure, people can create that many items in contents, but I wouldn't rank it as a good idea.</nowiki>

[12:13] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Hrm...</nowiki>

[12:13] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Honza, how long does it take to download all 300 right now?</nowiki>

[12:13] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: The thing is, Andrew, that objects like that can be extremely useful. See the various texture organisers that are in circulations.</nowiki>

[12:13] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: circulation*</nowiki>

[12:13] Honza Noyes<nowiki>: ~30 seconds or more.</nowiki>

[12:14] Rex Cronon<nowiki> whispers: greetings</nowiki>

[12:14] Honza Noyes<nowiki>: I can give you the object to try.</nowiki>

[12:14] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: there are people who use tools that have 1000s of items</nowiki>

[12:14] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I don't know the exact nature of the bottleneck there, but 30 seconds sounds too long.</nowiki>

[12:14] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'm pretty sure it could be sped up, but I'd have to dig around to see why it is slow.</nowiki>

[12:14] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: it's not helpful that with animations, we HAVE to have them in the content of an object to use them, while other things can be called via key</nowiki>

[12:14] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Object inventory transfer from server to viewer uses one of the oldest legacy methods in Second Life. Updating that is probably a good idea but would require a joint viewer and server version change, or some acrobatics on managing compatibility</nowiki>

[12:15] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Andrew, sometimes it takes up to 40 seconds to load the contents of an object that contains 60 or so items.</nowiki>

[12:15] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Perhaps Kelly, or maybe there is just a simple bug there.</nowiki>

[12:15] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: The UDP protocol should be able to transmit 300 items in much less than 30 seconds.</nowiki>

[12:16] Honza Noyes<nowiki>: I am not really sure about how it really works from server > client, but to me, it seems that it is being transfered one by one.</nowiki>

[12:16] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: That process has been very slow for a long time, so it's an ancient bug / design problem.</nowiki>

[12:16] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Probably does 300 queries to the database and transfers each object one at a time</nowiki>

[12:16] Honza Noyes<nowiki>: And since the content of object won't show until it fully loads, it could be sent as one piece of data.</nowiki>

[12:17] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: even 300 udp packets take l</nowiki>

[12:17] Grim Thursday<nowiki>: stop</nowiki>

[12:17] RT Chinook Unmarked Edition v2.0 whispers<nowiki>: shutting down engines.</nowiki>

[12:17] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: its also very prone to losing no copy items if you drag in lots at once. esp if a prev drag hasn't finished yet</nowiki>

[12:17] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: An object inventory cap would be fairly bad news for me, depening on how strict the limit would be.</nowiki>

[12:17] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: less than 30 sencons</nowiki>

[12:17] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: get to da choppa</nowiki>

[12:17] Immaculata Catronis<nowiki>: stop</nowiki>

[12:17] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: [12:17:30] Eclipse ESP HUD (T) v0.54341: Last collisions detected:</nowiki>

<nowiki>Object: RT Chinook Unmarked Edition v2.0, Owner: Grim Thursday, Velocity: 1 m/s, Mass: 65661.13 kgs, Time: 27 seconds ago</nowiki>

[12:17] Honza Noyes<nowiki>: Adding a cap.. What would happen to the current objects breaking it?</nowiki>

[12:17] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: it must be sending one letter per udp packet:)</nowiki>

[12:17] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Honza, I'll try to look around to see what is limiting that.</nowiki>

[12:18] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: However, I should note... I won't be attending next week. I'll be on vacation.</nowiki>

[12:18] Honza Noyes<nowiki>: Thank you. I can provide you with actual objects if you want.</nowiki>

[12:18] Immaculata Catronis<nowiki>: Where in TARNATION am I ?</nowiki>

[12:18] Grim Thursday<nowiki>: start</nowiki>

[12:18] RT Chinook Unmarked Edition v2.0 whispers<nowiki>: starting engines.</nowiki>

[12:18] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: Putting in a cap would break every texture organizer on the grid and fix literally nothing, if the problems start at 60 objects already.</nowiki>

[12:18] Immaculata Catronis<nowiki>: start</nowiki>

[12:18] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Sure Honza. That way I won't have to make my own.</nowiki>

[12:19] Honza Noyes<nowiki>: uhhuh</nowiki>

[12:19] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: ..and everyone trolls the noobs by freezing the vehicle in edit mode :P</nowiki>

[12:19] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: ok, can someone ban them or soemthing?</nowiki>

[12:19] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: >:3</nowiki>

[12:20] Honza Noyes<nowiki>: You shouldn't be able to freeze vehicles like that anymore.</nowiki>

[12:20] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: You can :D</nowiki>

[12:20] Honza Noyes<nowiki>: No?</nowiki>

[12:20] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: only people with return rights to the land the object is over can</nowiki>

[12:20] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Yeah, you can still</nowiki>

[12:20] Honza Noyes<nowiki>: Yes, when you have the land rights.</nowiki>

[12:20] Honza Noyes<nowiki>: But not without those.</nowiki>

[12:21] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: I use an object with an arbitrary amount of notecards in it as a method for storing character type data so I hope to not get capped too hard in that regard.</nowiki>

[12:22] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: what gets capped?</nowiki>

[12:22] Honza Noyes<nowiki>: So far, I don't see a reason why object inventory should be capped.</nowiki>

[12:22] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: And here's the 1000-GigaWatt facelight.</nowiki>

[12:22] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I've seen 1.21 jigawatt facelights</nowiki>

[12:22] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Lux Capacitor</nowiki>

[12:22] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: facelight in the hair... lovely</nowiki>

[12:22] Petr Topaz<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[12:23] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: actually burns terrain textures to a crisp, heh</nowiki>

[12:23] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Did the meeting just get completely derailed or what? <.<</nowiki>

[12:23] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: seems like it, lol</nowiki>

[12:23] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: Yup</nowiki>

[12:23] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Hrm... I had my render options turned way down for some testing... I couldn't see lights.</nowiki>

[12:23] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: does this meeting ever -have- any real rails?</nowiki>

[12:23] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: u guys realize that objects inventory r used to reduce nr of objects in avatar nventory...</nowiki>

[12:24] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: most ;ve ever seen are guideposts :3</nowiki>

[12:24] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: OOh I just wanted to mention quickly, many here have been looking foreword to the new feature that allows right clicking on particles to block the owner. Thats available now in this viewer: </nowiki>https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_Beta_Maintenance/3.5.4

[12:24] Honza Noyes<nowiki>: Not just that Rex.</nowiki>

[12:24] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Immaculata Catronis take your particle spam and leave</nowiki>

[12:24] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: oh, that reminds me... there were going to be some new particle thingies... whatever happened to those?</nowiki>

[12:24] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Kinda seems appropriate atm :D</nowiki>

[12:24] Immaculata Catronis<nowiki>: sorry</nowiki>

[12:24] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Ribbons?</nowiki>

[12:24] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: yeah, those...</nowiki>

[12:24] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Ctrl-Alt-Shift-= works fine</nowiki>

[12:24] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: any limit on object inventory would have to be pretty high (hundreds at a minimum) and only have an effect when adding new items (to preserve legacy items).</nowiki>

[12:24] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Do we have ribbons yet?</nowiki>

[12:25] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I tried that viewer out, couldn't find the particle setup option anywhere</nowiki>

[12:25] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: and some way to, like, select a particle in the viewer to find its emitter, or something like that.</nowiki>

[12:25] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: i guess instead of complaining about griefers at this weekly mtg, they arranged for one to show up?</nowiki>

[12:25] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Ya, MAINT-2268[c] Particle system selector</nowiki>

[12:25] Immaculata Catronis<nowiki>: there is a black cat reading a book !</nowiki>

[12:25] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: You can get that now in link above</nowiki>

[12:25] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Its really cool</nowiki>

[12:25] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I did</nowiki>

[12:25] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: too easy...</nowiki>

[12:25] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: where is it in teh viewer</nowiki>

[12:25] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Tight click someone elses partcles</nowiki>

[12:26] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: The maintenance project viewer has it I think: </nowiki>https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_Beta_Maintenance/3.5.4

[12:26] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: *right</nowiki>

[12:26] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Anyway.. is there any procedure or protocol to bring up ancient SCR or SVC issues?</nowiki>

[12:26] entity x2<nowiki>: legalize it!</nowiki>

[12:26] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: The cat cant read the book - its been trying for months. Same book :)</nowiki>

[12:26] Honza Noyes<nowiki>: Probably have to resubmit them Talarus..</nowiki>

[12:26] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I looked in teh viewer for the particle setup thing, is it not a menu option?</nowiki>

[12:26] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: It won't allow you to block Lindens partcles though :P</nowiki>

[12:26] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: oh, okay, thanks... I've been stuck with the Materials beta viewer for months.</nowiki>

[12:26] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: I tried that.. got closed as dupes</nowiki>

[12:26] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: i dont think the issue should revolve around capping it. i think the issue is more it says "Loading Contents..." forever and there's no progress feedback given and you dont see anything until it hits 100%</nowiki>

[12:26] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: So kelly gets to keep his bling :P</nowiki>

[12:26] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: You can raise the issues here Telarus.</nowiki>

[12:27] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: SVC-7556</nowiki>

[12:27] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: llSetKeyframedMotion objects lose motion after a sim reset.</nowiki>

[12:28] Honza Noyes<nowiki>: Is this the appropriate place to bring up viewer-side issues too?</nowiki>

[12:28] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Someone needs to remove that stupid "entity x2" object the idiot from before left here.</nowiki>

[12:28] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: is there a particle creation setup menu in that viewer or is it just new function constants added to teh particle functions?</nowiki>

[12:29] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Also would like to inquire from Kelly if there is any movement towards some of SCR-4. I see we finally got PRIM_SLICE, which is great.</nowiki>

[12:29] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: uhh, I've got a question, when it's got room for ir</nowiki>

[12:30] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Hrm... I wonder why your objects are affected Talarus while there haven't been any other comments on that Jira issue since Aug 2012.</nowiki>

[12:30] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: No specific project(s) for SCR-4 at this time Talarus</nowiki>

[12:30] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Beats me, but it has been repeated.</nowiki>

[12:30] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is half over</nowiki>

[12:30] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: i gotta admit i would kill for the _ONLY options</nowiki>

[12:31] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Eh well.. maybe next year when I ask again.</nowiki>

[12:31] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Telarus, this is a simple keyframed object with a simple script?</nowiki>

[12:31] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Yes it is</nowiki>

[12:31] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Just bobs up and down and rotates.</nowiki>

[12:31] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I have projects that build lists of params such as texture and color that are pretty sizable, but only need to change one of teh actual attributes instead of all</nowiki>

[12:31] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Feel free to take a copy of it</nowiki>

[12:32] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: It should be stuck again.. I haven't reset it since this morning's restart.</nowiki>

[12:32] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: That is, can you post an example script in the jira that reproduces the problem ?</nowiki>

[12:32] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: I think you can script around that by using change() event and CHANGED_REGION_START to restart the motion system</nowiki>

[12:32] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Or would we need to get a copy in-world?</nowiki>

[12:33] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: I think I posted it in that JIRA, didn't I?</nowiki>

[12:33] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: That might be tricky to restart the motion system, because the kfm object might be anywhere in the command list (I think).</nowiki>

[12:33] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ah yes, I see.</nowiki>

[12:34] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: you'd probably just set it back to its original 'starting point' with a function, then restart the KFM</nowiki>

[12:34] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: (but yeah, not impossible... A llSetRegionPos() or so away.)</nowiki>

[12:34] Motor Loon<nowiki>: fixes are better han workrounds</nowiki>

[12:34] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Yeah, but it is still a bug... needs fixing</nowiki>

[12:34] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Ok, I took a note.</nowiki>

[12:34] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Thankies</nowiki>

[12:34] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: When a KFM driven 'vehicle' crosses a border it has the same probelm. Drive stops even though its incomplete. Have to restart the motion system....</nowiki>

[12:35] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Well, changing sims is one thing.</nowiki>

[12:35] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Dunno when I could get to it. I'm still wrapping up some interestlist stuff (and will then be on vacation)</nowiki>

[12:35] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but I'll try to write up some bullet points and pass them to Simon</nowiki>

[12:35] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Tiberious, you had a question?</nowiki>

[12:35] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Objects that are always in the same sim should still continue to operate</nowiki>

[12:35] Honza Noyes<nowiki>: Is there any time plan for MAINT-2292 to reach the viewer release?</nowiki>

[12:35] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: so, my question is, is there any specific reason why an avatar cannot be set to PHYSICS_TYPE_NONE when sitting on an object?</nowiki>

[12:36] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: invincibility</nowiki>

[12:36] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Right. Some people play shoot-em-up, and that would make them unshootable.</nowiki>

[12:36] Motor Loon<nowiki> wants what Tib is asking for</nowiki>

[12:36] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: why cant root prims be set to physics none? to take objects 100% of havok</nowiki>

[12:36] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: * 100% out</nowiki>

[12:36] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Phantom?</nowiki>

[12:37] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Since that would break some content in SL, we have the avatar keep its collidability.</nowiki>

[12:37] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: (as there's fixes in place for prims when links are broken to reset the physics shape, I'd imagine if the avatar is anything like a prim, it would likely work the same way)</nowiki>

[12:37] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i think is that is wrong. u r invincible if u r sitting on object in damage enabled sim</nowiki>

[12:37] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: objects still collide with you</nowiki>

[12:37] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: they can't kill u</nowiki>

[12:37] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: Scripted systems, Rex</nowiki>

[12:38] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: why can't we have a PRIM_LINK_ROOT_POS and PRIM_LINK_ROOT_ROT modifier for llSLPP or llSLP for modding only the root prim pos and rot in a linkset, heh</nowiki>

[12:38] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: you can edit the root post & rot w/ llSLPP()</nowiki>

[12:38] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: i think there is a JIRA for a root-prim only pos/rot, kinda like how the viewer allows that.</nowiki>

[12:38] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I actually wrote an implementation of llSLPP that did that...</nowiki>

[12:39] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: if u use volumedetect u should be able to detect collisions even with phantom objects. right?</nowiki>

[12:39] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: you can change it but it pos and rot teh whole linkset</nowiki>

[12:39] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: gotcha</nowiki>

[12:39] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Yeah.. this was a feature request.. I don't think it ever made it in.</nowiki>

[12:39] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: however, someone considered the behavior unintuitive for the existing API, so we pulled it out</nowiki>

[12:40] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: I know there's some uses for being able to make the avatar's physics type 'None'</nowiki>

[12:40] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: btw, rotating the root while all the other parts stay put in the world-frame actually produces a lot of object update data...</nowiki>

[12:40] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: "Unintuitive for the existing API" -- that describes more than half of the API. :P</nowiki>

[12:40] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: the object rotates, and then all sub-parts move again to regain their previous world-frame rotations</nowiki>

[12:40] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i second what talarus said:)</nowiki>

[12:40] Motor Loon<nowiki>: me too</nowiki>

[12:40] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: in theory, we wouldn't be able to transmit all the data for that in a single packet for some objects</nowiki>

[12:41] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Yeah, that makes sense.. would have to do some kind of special update for that situation.</nowiki>

[12:41] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: I don't believe Volume Detect picks up -other- Phantom objects... And physics-type-none is like a super-phantom on top of that, it has no presence in the engine period, rather than a non-colliding one.</nowiki>

[12:41] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: as yu cna see</nowiki>

[12:41] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: it'll be ideal when everyone is in a 64bit env</nowiki>

[12:42] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Monster Ball!</nowiki>

[12:42] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: yea i have a few products i would rather take out of the physics engine totally</nowiki>

[12:43] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: I'd love to be able to let that fall and roll along the ground with me 'inside' it (alphaed out and sat on it)</nowiki>

[12:43] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: What amount of physics simulation do phantom objects have? O.o</nowiki>

[12:43] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: phantom means "collides with terrain only"</nowiki>

[12:43] Andrew Linden<nowiki> whispers: it is achieved via a "collision group</nowiki>

[12:44] Motor Loon<nowiki>: ..which is super annoying</nowiki>

[12:44] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: talking about phantom. i really don't like it how objects become phantom if they r rezzed around an avatar. i understand if they became phantom to let avatar get out, but once avatar is out they should revert to normal</nowiki>

[12:44] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Ohh.. ok.</nowiki>

[12:44] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: er... it is achieved via a "collision group", and various groups can be configured to not collide with other groups</nowiki>

[12:44] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: yeah, we initally had phantom objects falling through the terrain</nowiki>

[12:44] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Well, if you take something out of the physics engine totally, it wouldn't move except for scripted non-phys movement, right?</nowiki>

[12:45] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: so we set it to collide with the terrain. Now some people rely on that behavior.</nowiki>

[12:45] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Yes Telarus.</nowiki>

[12:45] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: so...</nowiki>

[12:45] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yes, spam you can't cleanup unless you have push enabled in teh region, heh</nowiki>

[12:45] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I can't remember why we require some collision for the root prim....</nowiki>

[12:46] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: peobably due to region encroaching, heh</nowiki>

[12:46] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: Kinda miss SWT already...</nowiki>

[12:46] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: except that the PHYSICS_TYPE_NONE feature was added to help solve the "very intricate dashboard problem"</nowiki>

[12:46] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: would there be any way to allow VolumeDetect objects to throw land_collision events when they pass through the ground?</nowiki>

[12:46] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: where people wanted to make vehicles that ran, but would put very detailed dashboard with many many prims inside, that shouldn't contribute to the vehicle's collision shape</nowiki>

[12:46] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Andrew, I don't know if this has been answered before, but it's been puzzling me. When I build something that incorporates a sphere (or any number of spheres), changing the sphere's physics to "none", regardless of the root prim's physics, causes the LI to increase.</nowiki>

[12:47] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: hrm...</nowiki>

[12:47] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Yeah, I think I just read that in the wiki</nowiki>

[12:47] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: that and land impact costs</nowiki>

[12:47] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: right faust. swt(sandbox weapons testing) has been crashed for so long...</nowiki>

[12:47] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: You know what... I don't know why that would be the case. I'd have to ask Falcon if he remembers why.</nowiki>

[12:47] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: WT has been down for oever a week, I know</nowiki>

[12:48] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: be nice if it was up so the griefers had something to crash other than important places of commerce</nowiki>

[12:48] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[12:48] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Hrm... WT is disabled on the grid.</nowiki>

[12:49] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I don't know why that would be the case. I'll have to ask around.</nowiki>

[12:49] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: WT had been put in no-script on the entire sim for ages, I figured someone decided it was useless entirely now and shut it down</nowiki>

[12:49] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: dissabled? it is missing a limb;)</nowiki>

[12:49] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Mona: My test w/ 2 cubes and a sphere doesn't increase LI when the sphere is changed to physics shape none.</nowiki>

[12:49] Honza Noyes<nowiki>: Could you tell us anything about the experience permissions?</nowiki>

[12:49] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: is the sphere changed from perfection?</nowiki>

[12:50] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Yes Tiberious.</nowiki>

[12:50] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: ah</nowiki>

[12:50] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Hollowed out, dimpled...</nowiki>

[12:50] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: ball polisher</nowiki>

[12:50] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: that would do it</nowiki>

[12:50] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: I remember having an 895LI hollowed/dimpled sphere...</nowiki>

[12:51] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: even though its physics were set to "none", Tiberious?</nowiki>

[12:51] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Oh, yeah, if you don't use the legacy prim physics setting, it actually computes the real impact, of which "physics" is one of three measures.</nowiki>

[12:51] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: no</nowiki>

[12:52] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: Oh I almost forgot, did my inquiry about an event for being-set-running-while-still-having-a-saved-state get noted down/passed along a couple weeks ago?</nowiki>

[12:52] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: but I did notice that a 0-.500 cut is much lower than a .500-1.00 cut</nowiki>

[12:53] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Kelly, do you remember that LSL event handler that Faust wants?</nowiki>

[12:54] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: I do not</nowiki>

[12:54] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: what is it?</nowiki>

[12:54] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: He wants the script to be able to detect that it had been paused.</nowiki>

[12:54] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: So when it starts up again it can handle the "I was just paused" event.</nowiki>

[12:55] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: take a look...</nowiki>

[12:55] Honza Noyes<nowiki>: Could you tell us anything about the experience permissions?</nowiki>

[12:55] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is almost over</nowiki>

[12:55] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: the one that's .000-.500 cut is 37 LI</nowiki>

[12:55] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: what do mean paused?</nowiki>

[12:55] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: but the .500-1.00 cut is 145 LI</nowiki>

[12:56] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Honza: I do not believe we have anything new to report for experience permissions at this time.</nowiki>

[12:56] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Honza, we don't know much about the experience permissions timeline.</nowiki>

[12:56] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: Lucy: When a script is set not-running, its state is saved until de-rezzed or crossing regions and will resume from where it was when set running again.</nowiki>

[12:56] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: why the severe change in LI for the same physical shape?</nowiki>

[12:57] Hexapoda<nowiki>: Btw, why do scripts fail to start as they often do in Linden Realms, often you see empty sims for the rez scripts has not been able to start.</nowiki>

[12:57] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: so you want a state_running event or equiv, heh</nowiki>

[12:57] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Tiberious, we tied some new features to the LI. So if you want to use those features you have to use the new LI.</nowiki>

[12:57] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: on_startup</nowiki>

[12:57] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: ....that's not the issue, Andrew</nowiki>

[12:57] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: let me show you...</nowiki>

[12:58] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: It looks like the LI calculation is skewed. or perhaps a bit oversimplified.</nowiki>

[12:58] Motor Loon<nowiki>: nothing simple about those</nowiki>

[12:58] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Right. I think PHYSICS_TYPE_NONE was one of those features that we tied to the new LI</nowiki>

[12:58] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: Tiberious means that the two different dimple "directions" produce two wildly different LI values despite being the same final shape Andrew</nowiki>

[12:59] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: it's not even that</nowiki>

[12:59] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: the two different cut values</nowiki>

[12:59] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Looks like it is just multiplying prim param values together..</nowiki>

[12:59] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: lower cut values produce lower LI</nowiki>

[13:00] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: all these LI calculations need to be KISS:)</nowiki>

[13:00] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I can't remember how LI is computed for hollow-cut prims</nowiki>

[13:00] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I don't get crazy land impact for torutred prims until I use materials or mesh or am I missing soemthing</nowiki>

[13:00] Meeter<nowiki>: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group</nowiki>

[13:00] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: Odd occurrance yesterday....while sailing across the blake sea my passenger kept getting unseated on sim crossing. She'd make it across but would suddenly not be seated on the sailboat. I forgot to check what channel the region was running under but if I see it again I'll report it.</nowiki>

[13:00] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: Andrew, check the LI for the following objects</nowiki>

[13:01] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: err the rezzed ones</nowiki>

[13:01] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: it's all physics weight</nowiki>

[13:01] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: but the only different values should result in the same end shape</nowiki>

[13:02] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: You're talking about the sphere linked to hollow hemi-sphere?</nowiki>

[13:02] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: I mean, I might understand if the difference between Cut start and Cut End was different</nowiki>

[13:02] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: yes</nowiki>

[13:02] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: yup</nowiki>

[13:03] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: but in both cases, the difference is .500</nowiki>

[13:03] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: shouldn't they be the same LI then?</nowiki>

[13:03] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Yes, you would expect them to be the same.</nowiki>

[13:03] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: oops?</nowiki>

[13:03] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: but clearly, one's more than quadruple the weight</nowiki>

[13:03] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: There must be a bug or inconsistency in the LI calculation.</nowiki>

[13:03] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: no kidding:)</nowiki>

[13:04] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: How is that being set to 'CONVEX_HULL' ??? Is it by script or by the object editor?</nowiki>

[13:04] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Is that just two spheres?</nowiki>

[13:04] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: object editor</nowiki>

[13:05] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: and only the root is convex Hull</nowiki>

[13:05] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: ah, so if teh root is "Prim" and is not "Prim" you get high LI, which seems reverse, lol</nowiki>

[13:05] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: the child is the dimpled, hollow sphere</nowiki>

[13:05] Hexapoda<nowiki>: To set a holow shore to object hull can give higher PE.</nowiki>

[13:05] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: seems teh reverse is teh same</nowiki>

[13:05] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: How do two spheres end up with a LI of 37 prim-equivalent? Let alone 145?</nowiki>

[13:06] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: the physics shape</nowiki>

[13:06] Faust Vollmar<nowiki>: I would laugh if it turns out the 37 is the bug and the 145 is correct. =p</nowiki>

[13:06] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: if theres a Prim and "non-prim" combo, it has high LI, regardless of which prims have it</nowiki>

[13:06] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: once any part of the linkset is using mesh physics, they all get the new LI accounting</nowiki>

[13:06] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Is that still against the region 15,000 prim limit? O.o</nowiki>

[13:06] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: the only difference between the two</nowiki>

[13:06] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: (or materials, for that matter)</nowiki>

[13:06] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: is the red one has its hollow sphere at a different cut value</nowiki>

[13:07] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: Start of .500 and end of 1.00</nowiki>

[13:07] Tiberious Neruda<nowiki>: the green's Start is 0.00, and End is .500</nowiki>

 
[[Simulator_User_Group]]
{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.06.11|Prev 2013.06.11]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.06.25|Next 2013.06.25]]
|}

Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.06.11

2013-06-11T23:17:36Z

Andrew Linden:

[[Simulator_User_Group]]
{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.06.04|Prev 2013.06.04]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.06.18|Next 2013.06.18]]
|}

== List of Speakers ==
{|
|Adamburp Adamczyk
|Andrew Linden
|Dallas Winslet
|-
|Darien Caldwell
|Duckie Dickins
|Honza Noyes
|-
|Inara Pey
|Jonathan Yap
|Kallista Destiny
|-
|katie Canucci
|Kelly Linden
|Kitto Flora
|-
|Kotzy Maesar
|Levio Serenity
|Lucia Nightfire
|-
|MarkSeery Melodie
|MartinRJ Fayray
|Mona Eberhardt
|-
|Nalates Urriah
|Nya Raymaker
|Petr Topaz
|-
|Qie Niangao
|Rex Cronon
|Shrike Rossini
|-
|Simon Linden
|SNIM Outlander
|TankMaster Finesmith
|-
|Techwolf Lupindo
|Whirly Fizzle
|Yuzuru Jewell
|-
|}

== Transcript ==
[12:00] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Hello, Kitto.</nowiki>

[12:01] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Hello all</nowiki>

[12:01] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Hello, Andrew.</nowiki>

[12:01] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Hi Andrew.</nowiki>

[12:01] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Hello all.</nowiki>

[12:01] Inara Pey<nowiki>: Hi, Andrew</nowiki>

[12:01] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I just love the fact that the floor of this platform is always visible when I login these days.</nowiki>

[12:02] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: It used to be one of the last things that would show up for me.</nowiki>

[12:02] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Stock scratched metal</nowiki>

[12:02] Honza Noyes<nowiki>: Hello everone.</nowiki>

[12:02] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: theres a floor? :P</nowiki>

[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That's true, it's a lot better than it was before</nowiki>

[12:02] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Which reminds me... where is the sun?</nowiki>

[12:02] Petr Topaz<nowiki>: I brushed it when I got here</nowiki>

[12:02] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: on the other side of the virtual world</nowiki>

[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I can get started with the release new ... </nowiki>https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/SL10B-Bear-Avatar/4944841

[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: ooops, wrong link</nowiki>

[12:02] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: It's virtual midnight</nowiki>

[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: </nowiki>http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2013-06-10/td-p/2041367

[12:03] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hello everybody</nowiki>

[12:03] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: So set mid-day. Can you see the sun?</nowiki>

[12:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Remember not to look directly into it :P</nowiki>

[12:03] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: I see the sun straight up</nowiki>

[12:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Today we updated the main server channel with a bug fix that should take care of the mass-logoff problem</nowiki>

[12:04] Simon Linden<nowiki>: This also should fix the LSL urls going missing</nowiki>

[12:04] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: woot nice</nowiki>

[12:04] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: "should"?</nowiki>

[12:05] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: that's great, although i must say i haven't encountered that problem.</nowiki>

[12:05] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Tomorrow the Magnum channel will get an update for it's interest list code, and is likely (but not yet decided) what will get promoted next week, barring any new finds</nowiki>

[12:05] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: should is a safe word, excludes anythign overlooked, heh</nowiki>

[12:05] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Lucia is correct.</nowiki>

[12:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: BlueSteel and LeTigre will get another maintenace release with more bug fixes</nowiki>

[12:06] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I use it alot myself</nowiki>

[12:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yeah, I've learned enough to hedge my bets and under-promise :)</nowiki>

[12:06] Honza Noyes<nowiki>: Simon, the LSL HTTP wasn't fully fixed > </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-2833

[12:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: ok Honza, I'll take a look later at that report</nowiki>

[12:07] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: The Magnum channel has to main fixes... the excessive AvatarAppearance packets, and my final fix for meeroos.</nowiki>

[12:07] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: er... has two new bug fixes...</nowiki>

[12:08] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: What did 'excessive AvatarAppearance packets' do?</nowiki>

[12:08] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: the meeroo fix was to save time and bandwidth by not sending any data on them, right? :P</nowiki>

[12:08] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: specifically, the problem where it looks like the meeroo's animation is busted when you turn around to look at it.</nowiki>

[12:08] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Honza - did you see the last comment on that bug? Maestro and Kelly are looking into it and need some more info</nowiki>

[12:08] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Heh TankMaster. I see you are not a meeroo aficionado</nowiki>

[12:09] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: hehe</nowiki>

[12:09] Honza Noyes<nowiki>: Right. Already respont in IMs, cannot add comments to it, Simon.</nowiki>

[12:09] Simon Linden<nowiki>: and I realize a bug Kelly and I were talking about earlier today is that issue, so someone is on it</nowiki>

[12:10] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Neither am I... Especially after running into a rude avatar at Fantasy Faire - she had about 1,000 scripts on her, all of them meeroo-related, as she bragged.</nowiki>

[12:10] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That's all the news I have ... Andrew or Baker, do you guys have anything more?</nowiki>

[12:10] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: (I'm referring to Tank not being a meeroo aficionado)</nowiki>

[12:10] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: No more news. I've been working on the update for the Magnum RC.</nowiki>

[12:11] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: I have a question regarding texture-induced lag.</nowiki>

[12:11] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Sure Mona, go ahead</nowiki>

[12:11] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: do have to say though, as far as breedables go, meeroos are defently the best as far as not lagging the region</nowiki>

[12:11] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: In many regions, our frame rates go to low single-figures because the creators there make extensive use of 1024x1024 textures.</nowiki>

[12:11] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: *shameless plug* lol</nowiki>

[12:12] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Mona, do you mean viewer or simulator frame rates?</nowiki>

[12:12] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: viewer.</nowiki>

[12:12] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: quite a few sculpties use that size too</nowiki>

[12:12] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yeah, it's a lot of data</nowiki>

[12:13] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: How much RAM on the graphics card or on the hard disc's cache does SL use for textures?</nowiki>

[12:13] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: I heard that rumor not long ago, and did some tests myself. I didn't find texture size had any impact on framerates whatsoever. At least not on my hardware.</nowiki>

[12:13] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: The viewer needs to be made smarter, or more configurable, so that it will limit resolution of texture downloads.</nowiki>

[12:13] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: I'm asking, because I read a recent article by Penny Patton and there are some things I don't understand.</nowiki>

[12:13] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: depends on whats in view and what viewer you are using, mona, as well as your prefernce settings</nowiki>

[12:13] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: was that bug about the http in body being truncated at 1024 bytes?</nowiki>

[12:14] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: since I can't view </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-2833

[12:14] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Specifically, Penny wrote that SL uses up to 512MB for textures.</nowiki>

[12:14] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The viewer will download each texture and write them to disk, so that's all in the cache folder. You can vary the size of the cache in prefs</nowiki>

[12:14] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Mona, got a link to that article?</nowiki>

[12:14] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Yes Andrew. Give me a moment please.</nowiki>

[12:14] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: </nowiki>http://pennycow.blogspot.gr/2013/06/building-better-second-life.html

[12:14] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: The viewer allocates no more than 512k to textures. The rest of the VRAM available is used for rendering the screen.</nowiki>

[12:15] Simon Linden<nowiki>: For the video card, I'm not as familiar with how it allocates the memory space but I know it can be an issue ... just go to a crowded region and that's one of the reasons things slow down</nowiki>

[12:15] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: question: is the link order shown while editing/inspecting an object supposed to be 100% identical to the link order via llSetLinkPrimitiveParamsFast() ? i've found cases where they are not the same and i dont know if this is "working as intended" or this is a bug?</nowiki>

[12:15] Simon Linden<nowiki>: ... all the textures on AVs</nowiki>

[12:15] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: actuualy the viewer can easly go well beyond the selected 512MB texture limit</nowiki>

[12:15] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: texture count is a whole other thing, yes :)</nowiki>

[12:16] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Thank you Nal. And here's my question. Nowadays, we see GPUs with 2, 3, even 6 GB of VRAM. Will the viewer take advantage of these newer GPUs?</nowiki>

[12:16] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: the viewer cant use more than 4GB of memory, as its a 32bit app</nowiki>

[12:16] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: mona, no, that would require making the app 64bit, which would take a lot of work</nowiki>

[12:16] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That sounds like a bug, Tiger, so if you can figure out how to make it happen and file a BUG jira, that would be great</nowiki>

[12:16] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Tiger, are you referring to a TPV's report of link number? There are some inaccuracies there, historically.</nowiki>

[12:17] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: So, we're basically stuck here, right Tank?</nowiki>

[12:17] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'm not sure what the right answer to that is, Mona.</nowiki>

[12:17] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: well it i've seen it with the real SL viewer as well</nowiki>

[12:17] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Thats always been broken yes. v3 can't sahow link order in build tools can it?</nowiki>

[12:17] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Tank, I understand the VRAM on the video card max's out at 512 of texture storage. Is that not right?</nowiki>

[12:17] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: TankMaster may be correct</nowiki>

[12:17] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: no Whirly</nowiki>

[12:17] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but I seem to recall hearing that there were some 64bit efforts on the TPV front.</nowiki>

[12:17] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: i can't say i've seen any discrepancy with LL's V3</nowiki>

[12:17] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: The server code does not send link numbers to the viewer the last time I looked</nowiki>

[12:17] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: @ tiger, yes, theres know bug in the viewer where the link order can be reveresed in some instances</nowiki>

[12:18] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: It seems like an opportunity for a TPV to shine -- support for more textures.</nowiki>

[12:18] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: @ andrew, only for linux</nowiki>

[12:18] Honza Noyes<nowiki>: Speaking of the viewer, is there anything going to be done with BUG-1470, it is major flaw in the internal web browser.</nowiki>

[12:18] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: this isnt reversed, just random afaik</nowiki>

[12:18] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: but the only way to see link order is to step through it using Ctrl-></nowiki>

[12:18] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Tiger: oh, then I'm not sure what you're looking at in the viewer to see link number</nowiki>

[12:18] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Macc needs the cocoa project ready to have a 64 bit possible</nowiki>

[12:18] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Although, there would still be some pressure for content creators to not use so many textures, and smaller ones at that.</nowiki>

[12:18] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: @ qie, its a feature in some TPVs</nowiki>

[12:19] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: "Fewer and smaller textures" is still good advice for making content load fast.</nowiki>

[12:19] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: tank, yeah, I'm familiar with that, but not in the LL viewer.</nowiki>

[12:19] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: i was going by the order listed in the inspect window in the real viewer</nowiki>

[12:19] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: i'm not familiar with that, Tiger. how do you bring that up?</nowiki>

[12:19] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Can't argue with that, Andrew. No point in having a 1024x1024 texture on a 1 cubic centimetre cube...</nowiki>

[12:19] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Oh, I didn't know that was supposed to be in link order</nowiki>

[12:19] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: I didn't either.</nowiki>

[12:20] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: The window I see can be re-sorted by different columns.</nowiki>

[12:21] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: well i didn't know either. thats why i was asking here first to know if it would be considered as a bug or not. seems logical to me to think they would be listed in link order by default. and usually they are but not always</nowiki>

[12:21] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: One could argue that SL needs better "feedback" mechanisms to inform people when they make inefficient builds.</nowiki>

[12:21] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki> would like to see 2048x2048 textures return</nowiki>

[12:21] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki> slaps Tank :P</nowiki>

[12:21] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Texture count, pixel count, and number of triangles</nowiki>

[12:21] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: and maybe some sort of "score" that combines all that info into one number.</nowiki>

[12:22] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: there's a jira issue about the order I think *looking*</nowiki>

[12:22] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: ARC for objects?</nowiki>

[12:22] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: By object, parcel, avatar, and region.</nowiki>

[12:22] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Tank, such textures would only make sense as frescoes and tapestries on huge walls with 1 repeat per side... I can see how they'd be useful if you were recreating the Capella Sistina with as few prims as possible, but in other cases.... :/</nowiki>

[12:23] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Beware the ORCs :)</nowiki>

[12:23] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'm just pipe dreaming here... that kind of system would help people evaluate stuff they make and stuff they buy.</nowiki>

[12:23] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24417<nowiki> and </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-2621<nowiki> (for link order)</nowiki>

[12:24] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yeah, that object inspector seems to first come up in link order, so it's not actually sorting by any of the columns yet ... at least from my quick test</nowiki>

[12:24] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: We have a Develop_>Render Meta->Render Complexity that used to work, but stopped working some time ago.</nowiki>

[12:24] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: yes whirly, that first one looks like what i'm talking about. i cant view the second one</nowiki>

[12:24] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Sounds like a viewer UI issue ... and it would be nice to add a link number in there, but that's another story</nowiki>

[12:25] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: so should i filre new ticket with my repro simon?</nowiki>

[12:25] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: 2nd was missfiled & was complaining about the TPV way of showing link order</nowiki>

[12:25] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: The server would have to send link numbers, right?</nowiki>

[12:25] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: i thought the link list was long gone, so I learned something. totally missed the little buttton down in the corner. :)</nowiki>

[12:25] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Yes Tiger, please file a BUG jira on it. It may be a dupe but in any case it will get sorted</nowiki>

[12:25] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: i was told, but i didnt confirm, the real sl viewer lets you move between links in order with ctrl + and ctrl -</nowiki>

[12:26] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: if in edit mode of course</nowiki>

[12:26] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Levio see </nowiki>http://jira.phoenixviewer.com/browse/PHOE-1372<nowiki> for the most descriptive issue on FS JIRA. Other issues are linked to that. Same bug is in all TPVs with that feature</nowiki>

[12:26] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: yes, all viewers should allow that</nowiki>

[12:26] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: I thought it was CTRL > and < ?</nowiki>

[12:26] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I personally would like to see both prim count and land impact in the build menu, because the prim accounting system will not reflect it correctly even for non-mesh or materials linksets, heh</nowiki>

[12:26] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: well, same keys really</nowiki>

[12:26] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: depends if you press shift or not :)</nowiki>

[12:27] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: so are we ready to move on to scripted prim return discussion? heh</nowiki>

[12:27] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: ((wow the object inspector is very well hidden))</nowiki>

[12:28] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Martin, I have a jira on getting the object inspector back to a more visible location</nowiki>

[12:28] Simon Linden<nowiki>: It really is, Martin ... I'm not sure I ever used it before and it just took me a while to find it</nowiki>

[12:28] SNIM Outlander<nowiki>: Just a quick query, is there any chance of getting a new or revised LSL function similar to llPlaySound that can start part way through the stated sound?</nowiki>

[12:28] Andrew Linden<nowiki> is lost... not sure which is the main issue of conversation.</nowiki>

[12:28] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Simon, I used it all the time in the V1 viewer</nowiki>

[12:29] Simon Linden<nowiki>: So after tomorrow's update, I'd be curious to hear from anyone who tries the new pathfinding CHARACTER_STAY_WITHIN_PARCEL option</nowiki>

[12:29] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: yes!! i want to know if you can return an object deeded to a group and if so, is it just deleted? will any warning be given as people nuke all their millions media movie players?</nowiki>

[12:29] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Back then the pie was More->MOre->Inspect</nowiki>

[12:29] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Simon, I will be trying that asap</nowiki>

[12:29] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I have a feeling tomorrow I'm going to be filing jiras on the prim return function limitations and exploits</nowiki>

[12:29] SNIM Outlander<nowiki>: I believe the release notes said group deeded couldn't be returned.</nowiki>

[12:30] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: particularly when I saw it was based on total parcel land impact</nowiki>

[12:30] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Kelly may be on soon so if we can give him a few minutes he may be around to answer questions about the new LSL functions</nowiki>

[12:30] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is half over</nowiki>

[12:31] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: that would be good. I don't understand the throttle at all</nowiki>

[12:31] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Can wait till tomorrow and try it, but I'm unclear on the process for granting PERMISSION_RETURN_OBJECTS to group-deeded scripts. A Group owner grants permission, then deeds? Or deeds then (somehow) grants permission?</nowiki>

[12:31] Simon Linden<nowiki>: It mentions group-owned objects for llReturnObjectsByOwner() but not for llReturnObjectsByID()</nowiki>

[12:31] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I understand a thottle, but I feel it needs to eb on a returned asset count basis, not prim or land impact or linkset count</nowiki>

[12:31] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: if I read it right, I have a 100 prim parcel, i can only return 100 objects per hour?</nowiki>

[12:31] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: the new object return functions have so many restrictions that render them almost useless in case of a major griefing attack:(</nowiki>

[12:32] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: seems like it would have to revoke all perms to complete a deed</nowiki>

[12:32] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I assume it works for *ByID() just as it would if you returned it in-world</nowiki>

[12:32] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: all of which the latter can easily be exploited</nowiki>

[12:32] Simon Linden<nowiki>: but I'm making that up as we go along</nowiki>

[12:32] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: so the kellz is the one to ask about anything?</nowiki>

[12:33] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: or is it 100LI worth of objects per hour</nowiki>

[12:33] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: i'm unclear on the exchange rate ;p</nowiki>

[12:33] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: /bling off :D</nowiki>

[12:33] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Kelly wrote those new functions so he understands them better than anyone :)</nowiki>

[12:33] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: heh. good idea. maybe it should throttle by L$. :p</nowiki>

[12:33] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: you wish whirly</nowiki>

[12:33] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: erp!</nowiki>

[12:33] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Good timing, Kelly</nowiki>

[12:33] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yes, lol</nowiki>

[12:34] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: nice beard</nowiki>

[12:34] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Thanks Darien</nowiki>

[12:34] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I just hope we only have whining and not screaming tomorrow, lol</nowiki>

[12:34] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: hi Kelly</nowiki>

[12:34] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: so I have 100 prim parcel, what can I return per hour?</nowiki>

[12:34] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: using the new prim return functions</nowiki>

[12:34] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Darien: 100 objects</nowiki>

[12:34] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: ok</nowiki>

[12:34] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: linksets?</nowiki>

[12:35] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Lucia: correct</nowiki>

[12:35] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: so its not prim or land impact based</nowiki>

[12:35] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: The limit is set by the Land Impact for the parcel, but the count is of linksets returned</nowiki>

[12:35] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: so it is more generous.</nowiki>

[12:36] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Kelly, is that a rolling hour limit, or does the limit get reset when the minute hand is pointing up? :)</nowiki>

[12:36] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: And if a griefer has somehow rezzed 500 single-prim objects?</nowiki>

[12:36] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: It is intended that for most uses the throttle won't be hit. The throttle is there primarily to prevent a silent war between a rezzer and returner that could impact the back end servers.</nowiki>

[12:36] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: coalesced object dropping is a griefer vecotr you don't have a defense against</nowiki>

[12:36] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Mona: on your 100 prim parcel? Let us know, that is a pretty big bug.</nowiki>

[12:37] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: u could punish the rezzer not the returner</nowiki>

[12:37] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: No, on a parcel that can take 500+ prims</nowiki>

[12:37] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: There are systems in place to punish the rezzer, though they aren't perfect.</nowiki>

[12:37] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Can prims in limbo (SVC-7788) be returned by UUID? (not on the prim owner's list until selected, but still visible in the region and detectable by sensors)</nowiki>

[12:37] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Kelly, as those objects returned as individual objects or coalesced?</nowiki>

[12:37] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Mona: Then you can return 500+ items</nowiki>

[12:37] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Jonathan: coalesced</nowiki>

[12:37] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Ah. OK. Now it becomes clear.</nowiki>

[12:37] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Are you still seeing any in limbo, Lucy?</nowiki>

[12:37] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yes</nowiki>

[12:37] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Also: These methods are NOT for handling griefing.</nowiki>

[12:37] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I see them every friggin day, lol</nowiki>

[12:38] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: it will not return group deeded items even when specified by UUID, correct ?</nowiki>

[12:38] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I have questions already compiled so I'll c/p as I go along</nowiki>

[12:38] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Lucy: I'm not sure. Those items are in limbo due to a bug that I don't understand and have not investigated. I do not know how they will interact w/ these return functions.</nowiki>

[12:38] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: If an object with PERMISSION_RETURN_OBJECTS granted leaves the region, are permissions lost and/or is functionality bound to the region the perms were granted in?</nowiki>

[12:39] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: The permission acts as all other permissions do, I do not expect it to be lost on region cross. However in all cases it only works to return objects over the land of the object owner.</nowiki>

[12:39] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Do these functions fail when called from an attachment? (post granting & attaching)</nowiki>

[12:39] katie Canucci<nowiki>: hi everyone im here about the griefers and to no how we can stop them</nowiki>

[12:40] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: So if you have land in region A and land in neighbor B but you don't want your object that you granted permissions to, to be able to return objects in neighbor B then don't move your object there.</nowiki>

[12:40] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: is the return limit specific to that script? or can you have multiple scripts out to go past the hourly limit?</nowiki>

[12:40] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Lucy: No, these functions can work from attachments.</nowiki>

[12:40] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: katie, we are talking about new LSL functions at the moment</nowiki>

[12:40] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: If a group owner grants object return perms and later leaves the group will their object still be able to return prims?</nowiki>

[12:40] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: The throttles are per object owner.</nowiki>

[12:40] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Lucy: Yes.</nowiki>

[12:40] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Do returns executed for temp objects or no trans deeded objects impact the return allowance?</nowiki>

[12:41] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Lucy: Yes</nowiki>

[12:41] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: If prim return allowance is on a linkset basis, will there later be a function made available that gives land owners an idea of how many returns are available?</nowiki>

[12:41] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Lucy: There are no plans at this time for such a function. Once these functions are in use, if that is a necessary thing then it could be investigated. I do not anticipate many people to really run into the throttle.</nowiki>

[12:41] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Is the prim return allowance reset on region start?</nowiki>

[12:42] katie Canucci<nowiki>: is there a way to stop them crashing singers please</nowiki>

[12:42] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Lucy: yes</nowiki>

[12:42] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: If return allowance is not reset on region start, does it observe the time difference between last server up time and restart time or will the value at the last sim state save be the same used on restart?</nowiki>

[12:42] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: lol, nvm</nowiki>

[12:42] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Lucy N/A</nowiki>

[12:42] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: touche</nowiki>

[12:42] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: thats all I have that wasn't already answered</nowiki>

[12:42] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: And again: These functions are not for combating griefing.</nowiki>

[12:43] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: What are they for?</nowiki>

[12:43] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Sandboxes and automated rental spaces.</nowiki>

[12:43] SNIM Outlander<nowiki>: KElly, any chance of a new LSL function similar to lPlaySound / llTriggerSound that is able to start the sound from a point other than 0 seconds?</nowiki>

[12:43] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and moderate or early cleanup</nowiki>

[12:43] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Nimmy: No such function is currently planned to my knowledge</nowiki>

[12:43] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: or a way to play a sound from a non hud attachment only for the wearer</nowiki>

[12:44] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Tiger: Again, not currently planned to my knowledge.</nowiki>

[12:44] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: if griffers have a way of crashing people's viewers, katie, have the people who crashed file a bug report with the maker of the viewer that crashed and hopefully the developers can fix the crash to prevent future crashes</nowiki>

[12:44] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: well. the thing is, boths sandboxes and rentals need these functions to combat griefing:)</nowiki>

[12:44] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: both*</nowiki>

[12:44] Shrike Rossini<nowiki>: Tank as stated before it's not the viewers they are crashing, it's the sim ..</nowiki>

[12:45] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: They may be useful for cleaning up after the source of griefing has been taken care of. But the throttles will probably prevent effective combat against any ongoing attack.</nowiki>

[12:45] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: if anyone wants a sample script to try with llReturnObjectsbyOwner(), i wrote one last night. Lets you safeguard specific people's objects, and set who has access. </nowiki>http://pastebin.com/EYUWjBui

[12:45] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: of course i haven't tested it yet :3</nowiki>

[12:46] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: speaking of crash modes, Simon can you have a look at SEC-1286 as it happened earlier and it may or may not be related to SEC-1277</nowiki>

[12:46] Techwolf Lupindo<nowiki>: Darien, can't use that script. There is no liecence headers.</nowiki>

[12:46] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Darien: If you want some space on Aditi let me or maestro know and we can get you a parcel in a region on the correct version.</nowiki>

[12:46] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[12:46] Techwolf Lupindo<nowiki>: :-0</nowiki>

[12:46] Techwolf Lupindo<nowiki>: :-)</nowiki>

[12:46] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: i hereby put it in the public domain ;p</nowiki>

[12:46] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: So, on group-owned land, the object must be group-deeded, but permissions granted by an Owner of the Group, right? So the group-owner grants the permissions first, and the perms stick when they deed the object to group?</nowiki>

[12:46] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Kelly I sent Maestro a request for taht, but haven't heard back</nowiki>

[12:47] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: could a linden accidently use it and return a whole sim? :D</nowiki>

[12:47] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I'm interested in testing the functions on aditi is it possibel to force some land to me there?</nowiki>

[12:47] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Qie: The object can request permissions from a group owner when it is already owned by the group for this specific permission</nowiki>

[12:47] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: oh... okay.</nowiki>

[12:47] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: thanks.</nowiki>

[12:48] Kotzy Maesar<nowiki>: Hi everyone!</nowiki>

[12:48] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hi</nowiki>

[12:48] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Lucy: send me an IM so I don't forget, I'll work with maestro or caleb to get something setup on aditi.</nowiki>

[12:49] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Lucy - there's a fix for that in the pipeline, it's in the next maintenance release after the one about to go out</nowiki>

[12:50] Simon Linden<nowiki>: SEC-1286, I mean</nowiki>

[12:50] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: nice, as theres no way to defend against it, lol</nowiki>

[12:51] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I'm just glad I can narrow it down to who was responsisble</nowiki>

[12:52] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yeah, it's a ugly crash, because sometimes the region gets saved with the griefing objects, so it comes back up and promptly crashes again</nowiki>

[12:53] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yes, seen taht before and it usually results in a much older state being brought back up, had one one time go back 19 hours when onyl 30 minutes was affected</nowiki>

[12:53] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and teh region was running fine before that as I was there for a few hours</nowiki>

[12:53] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: question: during a normal controlled rolling restart of a region, should the sim not be saved right before shutting down and not experience a ~15 min rollback ?</nowiki>

[12:53] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: A while ago, you guys had introduced a tiling fix for snapshots of a size larger than that of the viewer window. This, however, still caused the ire of those people who believe they *have* to take snapshots of a resolution higher than that of the most expensive DSLRs (as if they're ever going to print at A0 and 300dpi, but anyway). Now a new fix came to placate them, but this "fix" makes the tiling issue re-emerge in resolutions between viewer window size and ridiculous. Most of us don't have *any* use fo 40-megapixel snapshots. What will be done about it?</nowiki>

[12:54] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Yes Tiger, it should come back up in the state at shutdown</nowiki>

[12:54] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Levio </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7959

[12:54] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: What?? Automatic roll-back to recover from a crash? Andrew???</nowiki>

[12:54] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: we get reports every week that peoples meeroos have been rolled back from normal restarts. i can see after a crash it happening</nowiki>

[12:54] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Kitto, there is no automatic roll-back... unless the region actually failed to save state when it crashed.</nowiki>

[12:54] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I'm not sure Mona - this group focuses mostly on server issues, as we're not viewer developers</nowiki>

[12:55] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: ok</nowiki>

[12:55] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Lucy is claiming a 19-hour roll back....Andrew ...</nowiki>

[12:55] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Mona, you can try asking that at Oz's office hours</nowiki>

[12:55] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Most crashes don't suffer from that problem. It only happens if the code that saves state also crashes (double crash).</nowiki>

[12:55] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Do you know if there's a BUG jira filed on it?</nowiki>

[12:55] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Mona, Firestorm had lots of complaints about this too after we picked up the toling fix</nowiki>

[12:55] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Kitto taht was with a certain crash mode</nowiki>

[12:55] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Yeah, they are filed, hang on....</nowiki>

[12:55] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: yeah i've seen it happen, had a jira about it myself in the SEC area</nowiki>

[12:55] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: but nothing ever came of it</nowiki>

[12:55] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is almost over</nowiki>

[12:56] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I don't have all the data on that 19 hour rollback. I'm skeptical, but I'll give Lucy the benefit of the doubt.</nowiki>

[12:56] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SEC-1223<nowiki> <--heres one with a 24 hour server time loss after a griefing event Andrew, lol</nowiki>

[12:57] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Well - Wengen is back to crashing a couple times a day... only good thing is - it eventually recovers on its own. I still see double-crashes.</nowiki>

[12:57] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SEC-1102

[12:57] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: mono, LL has some fixes for that in the works, theres also a partial fix in the next release of FS for it</nowiki>

[12:58] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: regarding the tile snapshot fix issues</nowiki>

[12:58] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The rollbacks are not automatic, AFAIK. So someone from support probably had to intervene, and so that might be a factor depending on how they pick which one to rollback to</nowiki>

[12:58] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Mona, original bug that the tiling fix was for was MAINT-628. This caused side effects of </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-1094<nowiki> and </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-1140<nowiki> and </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-1214<nowiki> (you can see those publicly here: </nowiki>http://jira.phoenixviewer.com/browse/FIRE-9097<nowiki> , </nowiki>http://jira.phoenixviewer.com/browse/FIRE-9878<nowiki> )</nowiki>

[12:58] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I can think of one rare problem that might cause a very long rollback... if the region had been failing to save state for all of those hours.</nowiki>

[12:59] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Thank you Whirly.</nowiki>

[12:59] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: how often is state saved normally?</nowiki>

[12:59] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Which has happened in the past when the "save the state" code was crashing, but not the main process.</nowiki>

[12:59] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Usually once an hour I think, Jonathan.</nowiki>

[12:59] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: could be it's fixed by now, i've not seen it happen in awhile</nowiki>

[12:59] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: but haven't really been looking either</nowiki>

[13:00] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I can understand failed sim states when there is lag but not with perfectly running regions. I've seen those long roll backs with perfect running regions as well.</nowiki>

[13:00] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Jonathan: yes, Denby is currently saving state hourlyl.</nowiki>

[13:00] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Welll - taking a wider view - if the Griefer(s) who caused the Crashes got banned - we'd not care so much about the crashes.</nowiki>

[13:00] Dallas Winslet<nowiki>: there u go</nowiki>

[13:00] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: So - Who wants to see griefers banned . Permanently?</nowiki>

[13:00] Meeter<nowiki>: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group</nowiki>

[13:01] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: find a way to do that, and sure :)</nowiki>

[13:01] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Let me know when you figure out a way to identify them ... and not with IP matching</nowiki>

[13:01] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Kitto, if you can do it, the Lab will probably hire you.</nowiki>

[13:01] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: but free accounts, changing IPs, pretty hard to be permanent</nowiki>

[13:01] Dallas Winslet<nowiki>: mac address</nowiki>

[13:01] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: u mean throwaway-alts kitto:)</nowiki>

[13:01] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: banning giffere's accounts generally doesnt do any good, as either they get around the ban with special viewers, or just create new accounts</nowiki>

[13:01] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: changing mac</nowiki>

[13:01] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: throwaway accounts come and go all teh time.</nowiki>

[13:01] Petr Topaz<nowiki>: They will just make Alts</nowiki>

[13:01] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: changing a mac is trival these days</nowiki>

[13:01] Dallas Winslet<nowiki>: yup</nowiki>

[13:01] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: you can change your mac addres in windows</nowiki>

[13:01] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: MAC address is the easiest thing to change.</nowiki>

[13:01] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: not sure if you can change your harddrive serial number though. :D</nowiki>

[13:01] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Yes - and their alts - Basically - ban by IP #</nowiki>

[13:02] Dallas Winslet<nowiki>: if they calling functions to make them loop</nowiki>

[13:02] katie Canucci<nowiki>: i want the griefers banned</nowiki>

[13:02] Dallas Winslet<nowiki>: and steal resources</nowiki>

[13:02] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: there will always be griefers</nowiki>

[13:02] SNIM Outlander<nowiki>: Mhm</nowiki>

[13:02] Nya Raymaker<nowiki>: I think it's more likely that people who accidentially rez naked get banned than to actually get rid of real griefers.</nowiki>

[13:02] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: there will always be copybotters</nowiki>

[13:02] Dallas Winslet<nowiki>: then there should be away to have amonitor of that</nowiki>

[13:02] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: one might argue griefers are LL's most loyal customers :p</nowiki>

[13:02] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: there is, but its nto high priorty atm it seems, heh</nowiki>

[13:02] SNIM Outlander<nowiki>: All technology is used for both good and evil.</nowiki>

[13:03] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I've got some ideas on more advanced anti-griefer response. I hope to start exploring some of those ideas soon.</nowiki>

[13:03] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Duckie, how does the HD ser# get to SL? Via the viewer, which can be modified to report any ser# the user wants. That's not gonna work.</nowiki>

[13:03] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: I wonder how many of the 400,000 new sign-ups/month are actually throwaway alts for people who try to grief others and run an army of sockpuppets to troll on the feeds and the forums. :/</nowiki>

[13:03] MarkSeery Melodie<nowiki>: And right now they run around the grid with impunity and AR's dont even get acknowledged</nowiki>

[13:03] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: actually u can ban griefers if u make llviewr an app on xbox:)</nowiki>

[13:03] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: im guessing 90% of them mona</nowiki>

[13:03] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: funny rex</nowiki>

[13:03] Kotzy Maesar<nowiki>: Currently there is a greifer team of 2 people. Two people are are responsible for a huge number of crashes! Even crashing one sim in one hour. This MUST be costing immensly.</nowiki>

[13:03] Dallas Winslet<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[13:03] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: kotzy, its much larger than that</nowiki>

[13:04] Kotzy Maesar<nowiki>: Umm I mean one sim 3 times in amm hour.</nowiki>

[13:04] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: but not all of them work together</nowiki>

[13:04] Kotzy Maesar<nowiki>: Certainly there are more than 2 greifers</nowiki>

[13:04] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: you can also change your HD serial # fairly easily too</nowiki>

[13:04] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Heh. Koz, I know of an infamous group of forum/feed cyberbullies who enjoy impunity and their "leader" also has an army of alts.</nowiki>

[13:04] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Folks - Read what Andrw said - new idea on Banning ... How many would like to see Andrw work on *that* rather than any other bug... even border crossing bugs?</nowiki>

[13:04] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: But anyway.</nowiki>

[13:05] Kotzy Maesar<nowiki>: I am more familiar with a team of two, changing avs almost daily - all the crashes I am hearing of are them.</nowiki>

[13:05] SNIM Outlander<nowiki>: Nope, classic banhammer all the way :)</nowiki>

[13:05] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: YES death to griefers!!!!</nowiki>

[13:05] Simon Linden<nowiki>: You can get some relief by locking down your land, but that's tough to do for a public venue since you want to attract new folks</nowiki>

[13:05] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I'm in favor for giving land owner's the ability to restrict some of teh grief vectors that are commonly exploited</nowiki>

[13:05] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Kotzy, send me an IM with some names of alts of those two griefers.</nowiki>

[13:05] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: ask membership fee:)</nowiki>

[13:05] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: you cant stop griffing entierly, but you can make it harder which would be an improvement</nowiki>

[13:05] Shrike Rossini<nowiki>: Yes Koz, they are known ... but there now appear to be others two ... and not just alts of the above mentioned</nowiki>

[13:05] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: I must run. Sorry for being late, have a good week all.</nowiki>

[13:06] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Simon, that still doesn't stop bullies from abusing people through the feeds, which are a free-for-all.</nowiki>

[13:06] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc kelly</nowiki>

[13:06] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Simon - I'd love to lock down public land. Can I get perm to set ban list for Maint. land?</nowiki>

[13:06] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: tc kelly</nowiki>

[13:06] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'm interested in doing some research to see what kind of trail they leave within our servers.</nowiki>

[13:06] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: bye Kelly</nowiki>

[13:06] MarkSeery Melodie<nowiki>: widely known</nowiki>

[13:06] Kotzy Maesar<nowiki>: ok Andrew</nowiki>

[13:06] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: ty for the new toys kelly!!</nowiki>

[13:06] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: thanks kelly</nowiki>

[13:06] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: And the "trending" and "sample posts" were daft ideas.</nowiki>

[13:06] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: See you Kelly.</nowiki>

[13:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Yes Mona -- people will always be able to be rude</nowiki>

[13:06] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Thx Kellz</nowiki>

[13:06] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Simon, it's worse: we're talking harassment.</nowiki>

[13:06] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: so... baker... about the group ban list thingy...?? :P</nowiki>

[13:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I have to run away too ... thanks everyone for coming today</nowiki>

[13:06] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Thx Lindens</nowiki>

[13:06] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: And Lori Drew-grade cyberbullying.</nowiki>

[13:06] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: cheers</nowiki>

[13:06] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: doe the transcript of this get posted anwhere? i only just got here too lat etoday</nowiki>

[13:06] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: bye Simon</nowiki>

[13:06] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Thank you Lindens.</nowiki>

[13:07] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: tc simon and andrew</nowiki>

[13:07] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: thanks lindens</nowiki>

[13:07] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Thank you , Lindens.</nowiki>

[13:07] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: u can say: in order to rez of 256 prims u need to have 256$L in your account:)</nowiki>

[13:07] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Andrew, look at my SEC's I covered plenty of grief vectors that crash regions or fill them instantly or remotely</nowiki>

[13:07] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc simon</nowiki>

[13:07] Kotzy Maesar<nowiki>: Yes Mna, they make RL threats also</nowiki>

[13:07] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Transcripts are linked here : </nowiki>http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Simulator_User_Group

[13:07] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: thx si, happy birthday too btw</nowiki>

[13:07] katie Canucci<nowiki>: they made rl threats to dallas</nowiki>

[13:08] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Yes Koz, and at best they just get a slap on the wrist.</nowiki>

[13:08] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Harassment should be considered griefing.</nowiki>

[13:08] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Period.</nowiki>

[13:08] katie Canucci<nowiki>: scared the life out of him</nowiki>

 
[[Simulator_User_Group]]
{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.06.04|Prev 2013.06.04]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.06.18|Next 2013.06.18]]
|}

Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.06.11

2013-06-11T23:13:24Z

Andrew Linden: Created page with "Simulator_User_Group {| | Prev 2013.06.04 | Next 2013.06.18 |} == List of Spe…"

[[Simulator_User_Group]]
{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.06.04|Prev 2013.06.04]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.06.18|Next 2013.06.18]]
|}

== List of Speakers ==
{|
|Adamburp Adamczyk
|Andrew Linden
|Dallas Winslet
|-
|Darien Caldwell
|Duckie Dickins
|Honza Noyes
|-
|Inara Pey
|Jonathan Yap
|Kallista Destiny
|-
|katie Canucci
|Kelly Linden
|Kitto Flora
|-
|Kotzy Maesar
|Levio Serenity
|Lucia Nightfire
|-
|MarkSeery Melodie
|MartinRJ Fayray
|Mona Eberhardt
|-
|Nalates Urriah
|Nya Raymaker
|Petr Topaz
|-
|Qie Niangao
|Rex Cronon
|Shrike Rossini
|-
|Simon Linden
|SNIM Outlander
|TankMaster Finesmith
|-
|Techwolf Lupindo
|Whirly Fizzle
|Yuzuru Jewell
|-
|}

== Transcript ==
[12:00] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Hello, Kitto.</nowiki>

[12:01] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Hello all</nowiki>

[12:01] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Hello, Andrew.</nowiki>

[12:01] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Hi Andrew.</nowiki>

[12:01] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Hello all.</nowiki>

[12:01] Inara Pey<nowiki>: Hi, Andrew</nowiki>

[12:01] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I just love the fact that the floor of this platform is always visible when I login these days.</nowiki>

[12:02] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: It used to be one of the last things that would show up for me.</nowiki>

[12:02] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Stock scratched metal</nowiki>

[12:02] Honza Noyes<nowiki>: Hello everone.</nowiki>

[12:02] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: theres a floor? :P</nowiki>

[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That's true, it's a lot better than it was before</nowiki>

[12:02] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Which reminds me... where is the sun?</nowiki>

[12:02] Petr Topaz<nowiki>: I brushed it when I got here</nowiki>

[12:02] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: on the other side of the virtual world</nowiki>

[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I can get started with the release new ... </nowiki>https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/SL10B-Bear-Avatar/4944841

[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: ooops, wrong link</nowiki>

[12:02] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: It's virtual midnight</nowiki>

[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: </nowiki>http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2013-06-10/td-p/2041367

[12:03] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hello everybody</nowiki>

[12:03] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: So set mid-day. Can you see the sun?</nowiki>

[12:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Remember not to look directly into it :P</nowiki>

[12:03] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: I see the sun straight up</nowiki>

[12:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Today we updated the main server channel with a bug fix that should take care of the mass-logoff problem</nowiki>

[12:04] Simon Linden<nowiki>: This also should fix the LSL urls going missing</nowiki>

[12:04] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: woot nice</nowiki>

[12:04] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: "should"?</nowiki>

[12:05] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: that's great, although i must say i haven't encountered that problem.</nowiki>

[12:05] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Tomorrow the Magnum channel will get an update for it's interest list code, and is likely (but not yet decided) what will get promoted next week, barring any new finds</nowiki>

[12:05] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: should is a safe word, excludes anythign overlooked, heh</nowiki>

[12:05] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Lucia is correct.</nowiki>

[12:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: BlueSteel and LeTigre will get another maintenace release with more bug fixes</nowiki>

[12:06] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I use it alot myself</nowiki>

[12:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yeah, I've learned enough to hedge my bets and under-promise :)</nowiki>

[12:06] Honza Noyes<nowiki>: Simon, the LSL HTTP wasn't fully fixed > </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-2833

[12:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: ok Honza, I'll take a look later at that report</nowiki>

[12:07] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: The Magnum channel has to main fixes... the excessive AvatarAppearance packets, and my final fix for meeroos.</nowiki>

[12:07] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: er... has two new bug fixes...</nowiki>

[12:08] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: What did 'excessive AvatarAppearance packets' do?</nowiki>

[12:08] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: the meeroo fix was to save time and bandwidth by not sending any data on them, right? :P</nowiki>

[12:08] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: specifically, the problem where it looks like the meeroo's animation is busted when you turn around to look at it.</nowiki>

[12:08] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Honza - did you see the last comment on that bug? Maestro and Kelly are looking into it and need some more info</nowiki>

[12:08] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Heh TankMaster. I see you are not a meeroo aficionado</nowiki>

[12:09] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: hehe</nowiki>

[12:09] Honza Noyes<nowiki>: Right. Already respont in IMs, cannot add comments to it, Simon.</nowiki>

[12:09] Simon Linden<nowiki>: and I realize a bug Kelly and I were talking about earlier today is that issue, so someone is on it</nowiki>

[12:10] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Neither am I... Especially after running into a rude avatar at Fantasy Faire - she had about 1,000 scripts on her, all of them meeroo-related, as she bragged.</nowiki>

[12:10] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That's all the news I have ... Andrew or Baker, do you guys have anything more?</nowiki>

[12:10] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: (I'm referring to Tank not being a meeroo aficionado)</nowiki>

[12:10] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: No more news. I've been working on the update for the Magnum RC.</nowiki>

[12:11] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: I have a question regarding texture-induced lag.</nowiki>

[12:11] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Sure Mona, go ahead</nowiki>

[12:11] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: do have to say though, as far as breedables go, meeroos are defently the best as far as not lagging the region</nowiki>

[12:11] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: In many regions, our frame rates go to low single-figures because the creators there make extensive use of 1024x1024 textures.</nowiki>

[12:11] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: *shameless plug* lol</nowiki>

[12:12] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Mona, do you mean viewer or simulator frame rates?</nowiki>

[12:12] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: viewer.</nowiki>

[12:12] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: quite a few sculpties use that size too</nowiki>

[12:12] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yeah, it's a lot of data</nowiki>

[12:13] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: How much RAM on the graphics card or on the hard disc's cache does SL use for textures?</nowiki>

[12:13] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: I heard that rumor not long ago, and did some tests myself. I didn't find texture size had any impact on framerates whatsoever. At least not on my hardware.</nowiki>

[12:13] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: The viewer needs to be made smarter, or more configurable, so that it will limit resolution of texture downloads.</nowiki>

[12:13] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: I'm asking, because I read a recent article by Penny Patton and there are some things I don't understand.</nowiki>

[12:13] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: depends on whats in view and what viewer you are using, mona, as well as your prefernce settings</nowiki>

[12:13] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: was that bug about the http in body being truncated at 1024 bytes?</nowiki>

[12:14] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: since I can't view </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-2833

[12:14] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Specifically, Penny wrote that SL uses up to 512MB for textures.</nowiki>

[12:14] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The viewer will download each texture and write them to disk, so that's all in the cache folder. You can vary the size of the cache in prefs</nowiki>

[12:14] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Mona, got a link to that article?</nowiki>

[12:14] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Yes Andrew. Give me a moment please.</nowiki>

[12:14] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: </nowiki>http://pennycow.blogspot.gr/2013/06/building-better-second-life.html

[12:14] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: The viewer allocates no more than 512k to textures. The rest of the VRAM available is used for rendering the screen.</nowiki>

[12:15] Simon Linden<nowiki>: For the video card, I'm not as familiar with how it allocates the memory space but I know it can be an issue ... just go to a crowded region and that's one of the reasons things slow down</nowiki>

[12:15] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: question: is the link order shown while editing/inspecting an object supposed to be 100% identical to the link order via llSetLinkPrimitiveParamsFast() ? i've found cases where they are not the same and i dont know if this is "working as intended" or this is a bug?</nowiki>

[12:15] Simon Linden<nowiki>: ... all the textures on AVs</nowiki>

[12:15] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: actuualy the viewer can easly go well beyond the selected 512MB texture limit</nowiki>

[12:15] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: texture count is a whole other thing, yes :)</nowiki>

[12:16] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Thank you Nal. And here's my question. Nowadays, we see GPUs with 2, 3, even 6 GB of VRAM. Will the viewer take advantage of these newer GPUs?</nowiki>

[12:16] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: the viewer cant use more than 4GB of memory, as its a 32bit app</nowiki>

[12:16] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: mona, no, that would require making the app 64bit, which would take a lot of work</nowiki>

[12:16] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That sounds like a bug, Tiger, so if you can figure out how to make it happen and file a BUG jira, that would be great</nowiki>

[12:16] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Tiger, are you referring to a TPV's report of link number? There are some inaccuracies there, historically.</nowiki>

[12:17] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: So, we're basically stuck here, right Tank?</nowiki>

[12:17] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'm not sure what the right answer to that is, Mona.</nowiki>

[12:17] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: well it i've seen it with the real SL viewer as well</nowiki>

[12:17] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Thats always been broken yes. v3 can't sahow link order in build tools can it?</nowiki>

[12:17] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Tank, I understand the VRAM on the video card max's out at 512 of texture storage. Is that not right?</nowiki>

[12:17] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: TankMaster may be correct</nowiki>

[12:17] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: no Whirly</nowiki>

[12:17] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but I seem to recall hearing that there were some 64bit efforts on the TPV front.</nowiki>

[12:17] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: i can't say i've seen any discrepancy with LL's V3</nowiki>

[12:17] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: The server code does not send link numbers to the viewer the last time I looked</nowiki>

[12:17] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: @ tiger, yes, theres know bug in the viewer where the link order can be reveresed in some instances</nowiki>

[12:18] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: It seems like an opportunity for a TPV to shine -- support for more textures.</nowiki>

[12:18] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: @ andrew, only for linux</nowiki>

[12:18] Honza Noyes<nowiki>: Speaking of the viewer, is there anything going to be done with BUG-1470, it is major flaw in the internal web browser.</nowiki>

[12:18] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: this isnt reversed, just random afaik</nowiki>

[12:18] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: but the only way to see link order is to step through it using Ctrl-></nowiki>

[12:18] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Tiger: oh, then I'm not sure what you're looking at in the viewer to see link number</nowiki>

[12:18] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Macc needs the cocoa project ready to have a 64 bit possible</nowiki>

[12:18] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Although, there would still be some pressure for content creators to not use so many textures, and smaller ones at that.</nowiki>

[12:18] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: @ qie, its a feature in some TPVs</nowiki>

[12:19] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: "Fewer and smaller textures" is still good advice for making content load fast.</nowiki>

[12:19] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: tank, yeah, I'm familiar with that, but not in the LL viewer.</nowiki>

[12:19] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: i was going by the order listed in the inspect window in the real viewer</nowiki>

[12:19] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: i'm not familiar with that, Tiger. how do you bring that up?</nowiki>

[12:19] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Can't argue with that, Andrew. No point in having a 1024x1024 texture on a 1 cubic centimetre cube...</nowiki>

[12:19] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Oh, I didn't know that was supposed to be in link order</nowiki>

[12:19] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: I didn't either.</nowiki>

[12:20] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: The window I see can be re-sorted by different columns.</nowiki>

[12:21] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: well i didn't know either. thats why i was asking here first to know if it would be considered as a bug or not. seems logical to me to think they would be listed in link order by default. and usually they are but not always</nowiki>

[12:21] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: One could argue that SL needs better "feedback" mechanisms to inform people when they make inefficient builds.</nowiki>

[12:21] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki> would like to see 2048x2048 textures return</nowiki>

[12:21] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki> slaps Tank :P</nowiki>

[12:21] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Texture count, pixel count, and number of triangles</nowiki>

[12:21] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: and maybe some sort of "score" that combines all that info into one number.</nowiki>

[12:22] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: there's a jira issue about the order I think *looking*</nowiki>

[12:22] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: ARC for objects?</nowiki>

[12:22] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: By object, parcel, avatar, and region.</nowiki>

[12:22] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Tank, such textures would only make sense as frescoes and tapestries on huge walls with 1 repeat per side... I can see how they'd be useful if you were recreating the Capella Sistina with as few prims as possible, but in other cases.... :/</nowiki>

[12:23] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Beware the ORCs :)</nowiki>

[12:23] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'm just pipe dreaming here... that kind of system would help people evaluate stuff they make and stuff they buy.</nowiki>

[12:23] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24417<nowiki> and </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-2621<nowiki> (for link order)</nowiki>

[12:24] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yeah, that object inspector seems to first come up in link order, so it's not actually sorting by any of the columns yet ... at least from my quick test</nowiki>

[12:24] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: We have a Develop_>Render Meta->Render Complexity that used to work, but stopped working some time ago.</nowiki>

[12:24] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: yes whirly, that first one looks like what i'm talking about. i cant view the second one</nowiki>

[12:24] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Sounds like a viewer UI issue ... and it would be nice to add a link number in there, but that's another story</nowiki>

[12:25] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: so should i filre new ticket with my repro simon?</nowiki>

[12:25] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: 2nd was missfiled & was complaining about the TPV way of showing link order</nowiki>

[12:25] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: The server would have to send link numbers, right?</nowiki>

[12:25] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: i thought the link list was long gone, so I learned something. totally missed the little buttton down in the corner. :)</nowiki>

[12:25] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Yes Tiger, please file a BUG jira on it. It may be a dupe but in any case it will get sorted</nowiki>

[12:25] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: i was told, but i didnt confirm, the real sl viewer lets you move between links in order with ctrl + and ctrl -</nowiki>

[12:26] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: if in edit mode of course</nowiki>

[12:26] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Levio see </nowiki>http://jira.phoenixviewer.com/browse/PHOE-1372<nowiki> for the most descriptive issue on FS JIRA. Other issues are linked to that. Same bug is in all TPVs with that feature</nowiki>

[12:26] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: yes, all viewers should allow that</nowiki>

[12:26] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: I thought it was CTRL > and < ?</nowiki>

[12:26] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I personally would like to see both prim count and land impact in the build menu, because the prim accounting system will not reflect it correctly even for non-mesh or materials linksets, heh</nowiki>

[12:26] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: well, same keys really</nowiki>

[12:26] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: depends if you press shift or not :)</nowiki>

[12:27] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: so are we ready to move on to scripted prim return discussion? heh</nowiki>

[12:27] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: ((wow the object inspector is very well hidden))</nowiki>

[12:28] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Martin, I have a jira on getting the object inspector back to a more visible location</nowiki>

[12:28] Simon Linden<nowiki>: It really is, Martin ... I'm not sure I ever used it before and it just took me a while to find it</nowiki>

[12:28] SNIM Outlander<nowiki>: Just a quick query, is there any chance of getting a new or revised LSL function similar to llPlaySound that can start part way through the stated sound?</nowiki>

[12:28] Andrew Linden<nowiki> is lost... not sure which is the main issue of conversation.</nowiki>

[12:28] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Simon, I used it all the time in the V1 viewer</nowiki>

[12:29] Simon Linden<nowiki>: So after tomorrow's update, I'd be curious to hear from anyone who tries the new pathfinding CHARACTER_STAY_WITHIN_PARCEL option</nowiki>

[12:29] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: yes!! i want to know if you can return an object deeded to a group and if so, is it just deleted? will any warning be given as people nuke all their millions media movie players?</nowiki>

[12:29] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Back then the pie was More->MOre->Inspect</nowiki>

[12:29] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Simon, I will be trying that asap</nowiki>

[12:29] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I have a feeling tomorrow I'm going to be filing jiras on the prim return function limitations and exploits</nowiki>

[12:29] SNIM Outlander<nowiki>: I believe the release notes said group deeded couldn't be returned.</nowiki>

[12:30] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: particularly when I saw it was based on total parcel land impact</nowiki>

[12:30] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Kelly may be on soon so if we can give him a few minutes he may be around to answer questions about the new LSL functions</nowiki>

[12:30] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is half over</nowiki>

[12:31] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: that would be good. I don't understand the throttle at all</nowiki>

[12:31] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Can wait till tomorrow and try it, but I'm unclear on the process for granting PERMISSION_RETURN_OBJECTS to group-deeded scripts. A Group owner grants permission, then deeds? Or deeds then (somehow) grants permission?</nowiki>

[12:31] Simon Linden<nowiki>: It mentions group-owned objects for llReturnObjectsByOwner() but not for llReturnObjectsByID()</nowiki>

[12:31] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I understand a thottle, but I feel it needs to eb on a returned asset count basis, not prim or land impact or linkset count</nowiki>

[12:31] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: if I read it right, I have a 100 prim parcel, i can only return 100 objects per hour?</nowiki>

[12:31] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: the new object return functions have so many restrictions that render them almost useless in case of a major griefing attack:(</nowiki>

[12:32] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: seems like it would have to revoke all perms to complete a deed</nowiki>

[12:32] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I assume it works for *ByID() just as it would if you returned it in-world</nowiki>

[12:32] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: all of which the latter can easily be exploited</nowiki>

[12:32] Simon Linden<nowiki>: but I'm making that up as we go along</nowiki>

[12:32] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: so the kellz is the one to ask about anything?</nowiki>

[12:33] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: or is it 100LI worth of objects per hour</nowiki>

[12:33] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: i'm unclear on the exchange rate ;p</nowiki>

[12:33] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: /bling off :D</nowiki>

[12:33] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Kelly wrote those new functions so he understands them better than anyone :)</nowiki>

[12:33] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: heh. good idea. maybe it should throttle by L$. :p</nowiki>

[12:33] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: you wish whirly</nowiki>

[12:33] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: erp!</nowiki>

[12:33] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Good timing, Kelly</nowiki>

[12:33] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yes, lol</nowiki>

[12:34] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: nice beard</nowiki>

[12:34] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Thanks Darien</nowiki>

[12:34] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I just hope we only have whining and not screaming tomorrow, lol</nowiki>

[12:34] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: hi Kelly</nowiki>

[12:34] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: so I have 100 prim parcel, what can I return per hour?</nowiki>

[12:34] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: using the new prim return functions</nowiki>

[12:34] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Darien: 100 objects</nowiki>

[12:34] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: ok</nowiki>

[12:34] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: linksets?</nowiki>

[12:35] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Lucia: correct</nowiki>

[12:35] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: so its not prim or land impact based</nowiki>

[12:35] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: The limit is set by the Land Impact for the parcel, but the count is of linksets returned</nowiki>

[12:35] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: so it is more generous.</nowiki>

[12:36] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Kelly, is that a rolling hour limit, or does the limit get reset when the minute hand is pointing up? :)</nowiki>

[12:36] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: And if a griefer has somehow rezzed 500 single-prim objects?</nowiki>

[12:36] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: It is intended that for most uses the throttle won't be hit. The throttle is there primarily to prevent a silent war between a rezzer and returner that could impact the back end servers.</nowiki>

[12:36] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: coalesced object dropping is a griefer vecotr you don't have a defense against</nowiki>

[12:36] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Mona: on your 100 prim parcel? Let us know, that is a pretty big bug.</nowiki>

[12:37] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: u could punish the rezzer not the returner</nowiki>

[12:37] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: No, on a parcel that can take 500+ prims</nowiki>

[12:37] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: There are systems in place to punish the rezzer, though they aren't perfect.</nowiki>

[12:37] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Can prims in limbo (SVC-7788) be returned by UUID? (not on the prim owner's list until selected, but still visible in the region and detectable by sensors)</nowiki>

[12:37] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Kelly, as those objects returned as individual objects or coalesced?</nowiki>

[12:37] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Mona: Then you can return 500+ items</nowiki>

[12:37] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Jonathan: coalesced</nowiki>

[12:37] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Ah. OK. Now it becomes clear.</nowiki>

[12:37] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Are you still seeing any in limbo, Lucy?</nowiki>

[12:37] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yes</nowiki>

[12:37] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Also: These methods are NOT for handling griefing.</nowiki>

[12:37] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I see them every friggin day, lol</nowiki>

[12:38] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: it will not return group deeded items even when specified by UUID, correct ?</nowiki>

[12:38] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I have questions already compiled so I'll c/p as I go along</nowiki>

[12:38] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Lucy: I'm not sure. Those items are in limbo due to a bug that I don't understand and have not investigated. I do not know how they will interact w/ these return functions.</nowiki>

[12:38] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: If an object with PERMISSION_RETURN_OBJECTS granted leaves the region, are permissions lost and/or is functionality bound to the region the perms were granted in?</nowiki>

[12:39] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: The permission acts as all other permissions do, I do not expect it to be lost on region cross. However in all cases it only works to return objects over the land of the object owner.</nowiki>

[12:39] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Do these functions fail when called from an attachment? (post granting & attaching)</nowiki>

[12:39] katie Canucci<nowiki>: hi everyone im here about the griefers and to no how we can stop them</nowiki>

[12:40] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: So if you have land in region A and land in neighbor B but you don't want your object that you granted permissions to, to be able to return objects in neighbor B then don't move your object there.</nowiki>

[12:40] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: is the return limit specific to that script? or can you have multiple scripts out to go past the hourly limit?</nowiki>

[12:40] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Lucy: No, these functions can work from attachments.</nowiki>

[12:40] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: katie, we are talking about new LSL functions at the moment</nowiki>

[12:40] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: If a group owner grants object return perms and later leaves the group will their object still be able to return prims?</nowiki>

[12:40] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: The throttles are per object owner.</nowiki>

[12:40] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Lucy: Yes.</nowiki>

[12:40] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Do returns executed for temp objects or no trans deeded objects impact the return allowance?</nowiki>

[12:41] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Lucy: Yes</nowiki>

[12:41] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: If prim return allowance is on a linkset basis, will there later be a function made available that gives land owners an idea of how many returns are available?</nowiki>

[12:41] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Lucy: There are no plans at this time for such a function. Once these functions are in use, if that is a necessary thing then it could be investigated. I do not anticipate many people to really run into the throttle.</nowiki>

[12:41] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Is the prim return allowance reset on region start?</nowiki>

[12:42] katie Canucci<nowiki>: is there a way to stop them crashing singers please</nowiki>

[12:42] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Lucy: yes</nowiki>

[12:42] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: If return allowance is not reset on region start, does it observe the time difference between last server up time and restart time or will the value at the last sim state save be the same used on restart?</nowiki>

[12:42] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: lol, nvm</nowiki>

[12:42] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Lucy N/A</nowiki>

[12:42] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: touche</nowiki>

[12:42] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: thats all I have that wasn't already answered</nowiki>

[12:42] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: And again: These functions are not for combating griefing.</nowiki>

[12:43] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: What are they for?</nowiki>

[12:43] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Sandboxes and automated rental spaces.</nowiki>

[12:43] SNIM Outlander<nowiki>: KElly, any chance of a new LSL function similar to lPlaySound / llTriggerSound that is able to start the sound from a point other than 0 seconds?</nowiki>

[12:43] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and moderate or early cleanup</nowiki>

[12:43] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Nimmy: No such function is currently planned to my knowledge</nowiki>

[12:43] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: or a way to play a sound from a non hud attachment only for the wearer</nowiki>

[12:44] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Tiger: Again, not currently planned to my knowledge.</nowiki>

[12:44] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: if griffers have a way of crashing people's viewers, katie, have the people who crashed file a bug report with the maker of the viewer that crashed and hopefully the developers can fix the crash to prevent future crashes</nowiki>

[12:44] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: well. the thing is, boths sandboxes and rentals need these functions to combat griefing:)</nowiki>

[12:44] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: both*</nowiki>

[12:44] Shrike Rossini<nowiki>: Tank as stated before it's not the viewers they are crashing, it's the sim ..</nowiki>

[12:45] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: They may be useful for cleaning up after the source of griefing has been taken care of. But the throttles will probably prevent effective combat against any ongoing attack.</nowiki>

[12:45] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: if anyone wants a sample script to try with llReturnObjectsbyOwner(), i wrote one last night. Lets you safeguard specific people's objects, and set who has access. </nowiki>http://pastebin.com/EYUWjBui

[12:45] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: of course i haven't tested it yet :3</nowiki>

[12:46] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: speaking of crash modes, Simon can you have a look at SEC-1286 as it happened earlier and it may or may not be related to SEC-1277</nowiki>

[12:46] Techwolf Lupindo<nowiki>: Darien, can't use that script. There is no liecence headers.</nowiki>

[12:46] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Darien: If you want some space on Aditi let me or maestro know and we can get you a parcel in a region on the correct version.</nowiki>

[12:46] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[12:46] Techwolf Lupindo<nowiki>: :-0</nowiki>

[12:46] Techwolf Lupindo<nowiki>: :-)</nowiki>

[12:46] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: i hereby put it in the public domain ;p</nowiki>

[12:46] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: So, on group-owned land, the object must be group-deeded, but permissions granted by an Owner of the Group, right? So the group-owner grants the permissions first, and the perms stick when they deed the object to group?</nowiki>

[12:46] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Kelly I sent Maestro a request for taht, but haven't heard back</nowiki>

[12:47] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: could a linden accidently use it and return a whole sim? :D</nowiki>

[12:47] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I'm interested in testing the functions on aditi is it possibel to force some land to me there?</nowiki>

[12:47] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Qie: The object can request permissions from a group owner when it is already owned by the group for this specific permission</nowiki>

[12:47] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: oh... okay.</nowiki>

[12:47] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: thanks.</nowiki>

[12:48] Kotzy Maesar<nowiki>: Hi everyone!</nowiki>

[12:48] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hi</nowiki>

[12:48] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: Lucy: send me an IM so I don't forget, I'll work with maestro or caleb to get something setup on aditi.</nowiki>

[12:49] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Lucy - there's a fix for that in the pipeline, it's in the next maintenance release after the one about to go out</nowiki>

[12:50] Simon Linden<nowiki>: SEC-1286, I mean</nowiki>

[12:50] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: nice, as theres no way to defend against it, lol</nowiki>

[12:51] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I'm just glad I can narrow it down to who was responsisble</nowiki>

[12:52] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yeah, it's a ugly crash, because sometimes the region gets saved with the griefing objects, so it comes back up and promptly crashes again</nowiki>

[12:53] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yes, seen taht before and it usually results in a much older state being brought back up, had one one time go back 19 hours when onyl 30 minutes was affected</nowiki>

[12:53] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and teh region was running fine before that as I was there for a few hours</nowiki>

[12:53] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: question: during a normal controlled rolling restart of a region, should the sim not be saved right before shutting down and not experience a ~15 min rollback ?</nowiki>

[12:53] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: A while ago, you guys had introduced a tiling fix for snapshots of a size larger than that of the viewer window. This, however, still caused the ire of those people who believe they *have* to take snapshots of a resolution higher than that of the most expensive DSLRs (as if they're ever going to print at A0 and 300dpi, but anyway). Now a new fix came to placate them, but this "fix" makes the tiling issue re-emerge in resolutions between viewer window size and ridiculous. Most of us don't have *any* use fo 40-megapixel snapshots. What will be done about it?</nowiki>

[12:54] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Yes Tiger, it should come back up in the state at shutdown</nowiki>

[12:54] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Levio </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7959

[12:54] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: What?? Automatic roll-back to recover from a crash? Andrew???</nowiki>

[12:54] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: we get reports every week that peoples meeroos have been rolled back from normal restarts. i can see after a crash it happening</nowiki>

[12:54] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Kitto, there is no automatic roll-back... unless the region actually failed to save state when it crashed.</nowiki>

[12:54] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I'm not sure Mona - this group focuses mostly on server issues, as we're not viewer developers</nowiki>

[12:55] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: ok</nowiki>

[12:55] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Lucy is claiming a 19-hour roll back....Andrew ...</nowiki>

[12:55] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Mona, you can try asking that at Oz's office hours</nowiki>

[12:55] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Most crashes don't suffer from that problem. It only happens if the code that saves state also crashes (double crash).</nowiki>

[12:55] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Do you know if there's a BUG jira filed on it?</nowiki>

[12:55] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Mona, Firestorm had lots of complaints about this too after we picked up the toling fix</nowiki>

[12:55] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Kitto taht was with a certain crash mode</nowiki>

[12:55] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Yeah, they are filed, hang on....</nowiki>

[12:55] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: yeah i've seen it happen, had a jira about it myself in the SEC area</nowiki>

[12:55] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: but nothing ever came of it</nowiki>

[12:55] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is almost over</nowiki>

[12:56] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I don't have all the data on that 19 hour rollback. I'm skeptical, but I'll give Lucy the benefit of the doubt.</nowiki>

[12:56] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SEC-1223<nowiki> <--heres one with a 24 hour server time loss after a griefing event Andrew, lol</nowiki>

[12:57] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Well - Wengen is back to crashing a couple times a day... only good thing is - it eventually recovers on its own. I still see double-crashes.</nowiki>

[12:57] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SEC-1102

[12:57] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: mono, LL has some fixes for that in the works, theres also a partial fix in the next release of FS for it</nowiki>

[12:58] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: regarding the tile snapshot fix issues</nowiki>

[12:58] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The rollbacks are not automatic, AFAIK. So someone from support probably had to intervene, and so that might be a factor depending on how they pick which one to rollback to</nowiki>

[12:58] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Mona, original bug that the tiling fix was for was MAINT-628. This caused side effects of </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-1094<nowiki> and </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-1140<nowiki> and </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-1214<nowiki> (you can see those publicly here: </nowiki>http://jira.phoenixviewer.com/browse/FIRE-9097<nowiki> , </nowiki>http://jira.phoenixviewer.com/browse/FIRE-9878<nowiki> )</nowiki>

[12:58] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I can think of one rare problem that might cause a very long rollback... if the region had been failing to save state for all of those hours.</nowiki>

[12:59] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Thank you Whirly.</nowiki>

[12:59] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: how often is state saved normally?</nowiki>

[12:59] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Which has happened in the past when the "save the state" code was crashing, but not the main process.</nowiki>

[12:59] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Usually once an hour I think, Jonathan.</nowiki>

[12:59] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: could be it's fixed by now, i've not seen it happen in awhile</nowiki>

[12:59] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: but haven't really been looking either</nowiki>

[13:00] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I can understand failed sim states when there is lag but not with perfectly running regions. I've seen those long roll backs with perfect running regions as well.</nowiki>

[13:00] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Jonathan: yes, Denby is currently saving state hourlyl.</nowiki>

[13:00] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Welll - taking a wider view - if the Griefer(s) who caused the Crashes got banned - we'd not care so much about the crashes.</nowiki>

[13:00] Dallas Winslet<nowiki>: there u go</nowiki>

[13:00] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: So - Who wants to see griefers banned . Permanently?</nowiki>

[13:00] Meeter<nowiki>: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group</nowiki>

[13:01] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: find a way to do that, and sure :)</nowiki>

[13:01] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Let me know when you figure out a way to identify them ... and not with IP matching</nowiki>

[13:01] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Kitto, if you can do it, the Lab will probably hire you.</nowiki>

[13:01] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: but free accounts, changing IPs, pretty hard to be permanent</nowiki>

[13:01] Dallas Winslet<nowiki>: mac address</nowiki>

[13:01] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: u mean throwaway-alts kitto:)</nowiki>

[13:01] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: banning giffere's accounts generally doesnt do any good, as either they get around the ban with special viewers, or just create new accounts</nowiki>

[13:01] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: changing mac</nowiki>

[13:01] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: throwaway accounts come and go all teh time.</nowiki>

[13:01] Petr Topaz<nowiki>: They will just make Alts</nowiki>

[13:01] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: changing a mac is trival these days</nowiki>

[13:01] Dallas Winslet<nowiki>: yup</nowiki>

[13:01] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: you can change your mac addres in windows</nowiki>

[13:01] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: MAC address is the easiest thing to change.</nowiki>

[13:01] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: not sure if you can change your harddrive serial number though. :D</nowiki>

[13:01] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Yes - and their alts - Basically - ban by IP #</nowiki>

[13:02] Dallas Winslet<nowiki>: if they calling functions to make them loop</nowiki>

[13:02] katie Canucci<nowiki>: i want the griefers banned</nowiki>

[13:02] Dallas Winslet<nowiki>: and steal resources</nowiki>

[13:02] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: there will always be griefers</nowiki>

[13:02] SNIM Outlander<nowiki>: Mhm</nowiki>

[13:02] Nya Raymaker<nowiki>: I think it's more likely that people who accidentially rez naked get banned than to actually get rid of real griefers.</nowiki>

[13:02] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: there will always be copybotters</nowiki>

[13:02] Dallas Winslet<nowiki>: then there should be away to have amonitor of that</nowiki>

[13:02] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: one might argue griefers are LL's most loyal customers :p</nowiki>

[13:02] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: there is, but its nto high priorty atm it seems, heh</nowiki>

[13:02] SNIM Outlander<nowiki>: All technology is used for both good and evil.</nowiki>

[13:03] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I've got some ideas on more advanced anti-griefer response. I hope to start exploring some of those ideas soon.</nowiki>

[13:03] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Duckie, how does the HD ser# get to SL? Via the viewer, which can be modified to report any ser# the user wants. That's not gonna work.</nowiki>

[13:03] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: I wonder how many of the 400,000 new sign-ups/month are actually throwaway alts for people who try to grief others and run an army of sockpuppets to troll on the feeds and the forums. :/</nowiki>

[13:03] MarkSeery Melodie<nowiki>: And right now they run around the grid with impunity and AR's dont even get acknowledged</nowiki>

[13:03] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: actually u can ban griefers if u make llviewr an app on xbox:)</nowiki>

[13:03] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: im guessing 90% of them mona</nowiki>

[13:03] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: funny rex</nowiki>

[13:03] Kotzy Maesar<nowiki>: Currently there is a greifer team of 2 people. Two people are are responsible for a huge number of crashes! Even crashing one sim in one hour. This MUST be costing immensly.</nowiki>

[13:03] Dallas Winslet<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[13:03] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: kotzy, its much larger than that</nowiki>

[13:04] Kotzy Maesar<nowiki>: Umm I mean one sim 3 times in amm hour.</nowiki>

[13:04] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: but not all of them work together</nowiki>

[13:04] Kotzy Maesar<nowiki>: Certainly there are more than 2 greifers</nowiki>

[13:04] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: you can also change your HD serial # fairly easily too</nowiki>

[13:04] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Heh. Koz, I know of an infamous group of forum/feed cyberbullies who enjoy impunity and their "leader" also has an army of alts.</nowiki>

[13:04] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Folks - Read what Andrw said - new idea on Banning ... How many would like to see Andrw work on *that* rather than any other bug... even border crossing bugs?</nowiki>

[13:04] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: But anyway.</nowiki>

[13:05] Kotzy Maesar<nowiki>: I am more familiar with a team of two, changing avs almost daily - all the crashes I am hearing of are them.</nowiki>

[13:05] SNIM Outlander<nowiki>: Nope, classic banhammer all the way :)</nowiki>

[13:05] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: YES death to griefers!!!!</nowiki>

[13:05] Simon Linden<nowiki>: You can get some relief by locking down your land, but that's tough to do for a public venue since you want to attract new folks</nowiki>

[13:05] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I'm in favor for giving land owner's the ability to restrict some of teh grief vectors that are commonly exploited</nowiki>

[13:05] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Kotzy, send me an IM with some names of alts of those two griefers.</nowiki>

[13:05] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: ask membership fee:)</nowiki>

[13:05] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: you cant stop griffing entierly, but you can make it harder which would be an improvement</nowiki>

[13:05] Shrike Rossini<nowiki>: Yes Koz, they are known ... but there now appear to be others two ... and not just alts of the above mentioned</nowiki>

[13:05] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: I must run. Sorry for being late, have a good week all.</nowiki>

[13:06] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Simon, that still doesn't stop bullies from abusing people through the feeds, which are a free-for-all.</nowiki>

[13:06] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc kelly</nowiki>

[13:06] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Simon - I'd love to lock down public land. Can I get perm to set ban list for Maint. land?</nowiki>

[13:06] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: tc kelly</nowiki>

[13:06] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'm interested in doing some research to see what kind of trail they leave within our servers.</nowiki>

[13:06] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: bye Kelly</nowiki>

[13:06] MarkSeery Melodie<nowiki>: widely known</nowiki>

[13:06] Kotzy Maesar<nowiki>: ok Andrew</nowiki>

[13:06] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: ty for the new toys kelly!!</nowiki>

[13:06] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: thanks kelly</nowiki>

[13:06] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: And the "trending" and "sample posts" were daft ideas.</nowiki>

[13:06] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: See you Kelly.</nowiki>

[13:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Yes Mona -- people will always be able to be rude</nowiki>

[13:06] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Thx Kellz</nowiki>

[13:06] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Simon, it's worse: we're talking harassment.</nowiki>

[13:06] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: so... baker... about the group ban list thingy...?? :P</nowiki>

[13:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I have to run away too ... thanks everyone for coming today</nowiki>

[13:06] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Thx Lindens</nowiki>

[13:06] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: And Lori Drew-grade cyberbullying.</nowiki>

[13:06] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: cheers</nowiki>

[13:06] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: doe the transcript of this get posted anwhere? i only just got here too lat etoday</nowiki>

[13:06] Darien Caldwell<nowiki>: bye Simon</nowiki>

[13:06] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Thank you Lindens.</nowiki>

[13:07] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: tc simon and andrew</nowiki>

[13:07] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: thanks lindens</nowiki>

[13:07] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Thank you , Lindens.</nowiki>

[13:07] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: u can say: in order to rez of 256 prims u need to have 256$L in your account:)</nowiki>

[13:07] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Andrew, look at my SEC's I covered plenty of grief vectors that crash regions or fill them instantly or remotely</nowiki>

[13:07] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: tc simon</nowiki>

[13:07] Kotzy Maesar<nowiki>: Yes Mna, they make RL threats also</nowiki>

[13:07] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Transcripts are linked here : </nowiki>http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Simulator_User_Group

[13:07] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: thx si, happy birthday too btw</nowiki>

[13:07] katie Canucci<nowiki>: they made rl threats to dallas</nowiki>

[13:08] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Yes Koz, and at best they just get a slap on the wrist.</nowiki>

[13:08] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Harassment should be considered griefing.</nowiki>

[13:08] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Period.</nowiki>

[13:08] katie Canucci<nowiki>: scared the life out of him</nowiki>

 
[[Simulator_User_Group]]
{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.06.04|Prev 2013.06.04]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.06.18|Next 2013.06.18]]
|}

Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.05.21

2013-06-04T20:29:22Z

Andrew Linden: Created page with "Simulator_User_Group {| | Prev 2013.05.14 | Next 2013.05.28 |} == List of Spe…"

[[Simulator_User_Group]]
{|
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.05.14|Prev 2013.05.14]]
| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.05.28|Next 2013.05.28]]
|}

== List of Speakers ==
{|
|Adamburp Adamczyk
|AldonFairfield
|Andrew Linden
|-
|avantgarde Frequency
|Baker Linden
|Barbie Alchemi
|-
|Daemonika Nightfire
|Dottie Iceberg
|Duckie Dickins
|-
|Jolie Bernitz
|Jonathan Yap
|Jonvic Toshi
|-
|joy Pinklady
|Kallista Destiny
|Kelly Linden
|-
|Kitto Flora
|Levio Serenity
|Lexbot Sinister
|-
|Lucia Nightfire
|magnus String
|MartinRJ
|-
|Mireille Jenvieve
|Nalates Urriah
|Nicholas Melchior
|-
|Purdy Forcella
|Qie Niangao
|reddot99 Republic
|-
|Rex Cronon
|Shrike Rossini
|Simon Linden
|-
|Sinful Xubersnak
|Talarus Luan
|Toysoldier Thor
|-
|Whirly Fizzle
|}

== Transcript ==
[12:05] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: wouldn't be a server dev meeting without griefing coming up in the chat</nowiki>

[12:05] Toysoldier Thor<nowiki>: hey andrew</nowiki>

[12:05] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That's it for release news ... Andrew, do you have anything?</nowiki>

[12:05] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: (just in passing: this sim has over 30 people on it at the moment, and yet 10msec/frame Spare Time.)</nowiki>

[12:06] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: i think you have a lot of venue owners here...particularly music venues. we would like to have a chance to get some questions answered at some point</nowiki>

[12:06] Dottie Iceberg<nowiki>: Simon may we discuss the griefer issues after the Linden news is put out?</nowiki>

[12:06] Toysoldier Thor<nowiki>: maybe we can get this sim to 50 - 70 and watch how the sim starts booting blocks of us off</nowiki>

[12:06] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Not much... we're trying to get my project up on RC. It might make it but we're doing some last minute testing which will sway the decision.</nowiki>

[12:07] Simon Linden<nowiki>: ok, one second ... we'll throw the table open for topics after I make sure we've got all news and announcments taken care of</nowiki>

[12:07] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: ty simon</nowiki>

[12:07] Toysoldier Thor<nowiki>: kk</nowiki>

[12:07] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hello andrew</nowiki>

[12:07] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I do have a little news about the meeroo animation bug... I wan't able to fix it after all...</nowiki>

[12:07] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: eeeeep</nowiki>

[12:07] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but I did reduce it or eliminate it for meeroos that are nearby (closer than 10m)</nowiki>

[12:07] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: nuuuu : (</nowiki>

[12:08] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: turns out the problem wasn't what I thought it was</nowiki>

[12:08] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: no off screen meeroo mating sequence allowed</nowiki>

[12:08] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: The Roo scripter is here actually :P</nowiki>

[12:08] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I tested meeroo and noticed that the meeroo sometimes don't update all of their animation state at once</nowiki>

[12:08] Simon Linden<nowiki>: 10m helps ... farther than that they'll be drawn pretty small</nowiki>

[12:08] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: so you get a slightly disconnected meeroo</nowiki>

[12:09] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: however, that problem is caused mostly by slow scripts, low bandwidth connection, or general lag</nowiki>

[12:09] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: none of which is new</nowiki>

[12:09] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: you mean sometimes the llSPPF() doesnt execute every command before the time slice is over and drops some?</nowiki>

[12:09] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: but the new problem was that the meeroo walk animation appeared to be busted</nowiki>

[12:09] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: so when you turn around the meeroo walk forward... but without their characteristic little hop</nowiki>

[12:10] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: so it looks like the animation itself isn't working</nowiki>

[12:10] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: anyway, in my new project the meeroo will update correctly if they are nearby, where you can actually see the hop</nowiki>

[12:10] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: So... is this fixable in the Lab's side or not?</nowiki>

[12:11] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I will revisit the bug after this bit of code goes out.</nowiki>

[12:11] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'll be curious to hear how bad it is after this partial fix.</nowiki>

[12:11] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Tiger, you think llSPPF() drops some simside? not just fails to update to viewer?</nowiki>

[12:12] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: one other bit of news...</nowiki>

[12:12] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: oh i know it does, but its pretty rare. it will spit an error on the debug channel and players occasionally report it</nowiki>

[12:12] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: we found and fixed the crash bug in the viewer project that goes with some recent interestlist changes</nowiki>

[12:12] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: OOh yay</nowiki>

[12:12] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: so I'm trying to get it out into some public repo</nowiki>

[12:13] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Wonderful! Thank you</nowiki>

[12:13] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: there is some new process that we need to follow that Oz just sent out</nowiki>

[12:13] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Andrew - let's talk later. We have some viewer bug fixes we're releasing as well and maybe those should just go together</nowiki>

[12:13] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: so I'm going to try to make sure we cross our t's and dot our i's so that we can make the work public</nowiki>

[12:13] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: that's all the news I've got.</nowiki>

[12:14] joy Pinklady<nowiki>: We get abused nearly everyday by a man and woman who have several alts. We belong to many poetry groups that are griefed by these people nearly everyday. I have now found out they live at a place called 'Perfectbum'(Stargazer fields) I hope this will help you. These are some of their alts. Plsssssssssssss help us, Im begging you, tku for your kind help.</nowiki>



<nowiki>5kelly(Iloveads) - Admuhral - Adsnym - Notadmiral - Dollymoomin - Admiral - Spakker</nowiki>



<nowiki>Admiral - Notadmiral - hadmiral - hurratorpedo - admiralpoop - poetrylover69 resident</nowiki>



<nowiki>choufleurs resident - jeremyiorns - throatfck</nowiki>

[12:14] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[12:14] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Thanks very much Andrew & Simon</nowiki>

[12:14] Baker Linden<nowiki>: For my news: I'm making really great progress on fixing leading/trailing spaces in display names -- fixing up some unit tests and I have a couple more little issues related to it, but overall it should be ready for QA this week. After that, I'll be finishing up the last couple issues I've assigned to myself concerning name searching and proper removal of muted agents / objects in mute lists.</nowiki>

[12:15] Barbie Alchemi<nowiki>: they have hundreds of alts and create new ones quicker than we can ban them</nowiki>

[12:15] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and then back to group na list work, huh, Baker?</nowiki>

[12:15] Simon Linden<nowiki>: One sec, we'll get to griefing soon....</nowiki>

[12:15] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: *ban</nowiki>

[12:15] Barbie Alchemi<nowiki>: I am the owner of the Creations for Parkinson's sim and they have abused members at our Parkinson's support group meetins</nowiki>

[12:15] Baker Linden<nowiki>: After working on stripping whitespace from display names, I'm unsure how useful it'll be -- anyone that wants to game the system will just append a bunch of other characters that appear before letters... But at least whitespace will be stripped</nowiki>

[12:15] Barbie Alchemi<nowiki>: this is illegal, how can we be protected?</nowiki>

[12:15] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Yay baker! Can someone give this man a cookie? <3</nowiki>

[12:16] joy Pinklady<nowiki>: yes the same two people this weeknew alts:- amdirr, spazmiral, kurly wurley and capaill</nowiki>

[12:16] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I'm not sure he has them enable</nowiki>

[12:16] Simon Linden<nowiki>: d</nowiki>

[12:16] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: ROFL</nowiki>

[12:16] Baker Linden<nowiki>: but then yes, Lucia, I'll be working on group bans :)</nowiki>

[12:16] Barbie Alchemi<nowiki>: they are the same two that do more griefing than all others combined</nowiki>

[12:16] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Whoohoooooooo</nowiki>

[12:16] Barbie Alchemi<nowiki>: they live in the UK</nowiki>

[12:16] joy Pinklady<nowiki>: yes</nowiki>

[12:16] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: It's times like these I miss the G Team. :D</nowiki>

[12:16] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: Can you guys please wait til the Lindens are done?</nowiki>

[12:16] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Barbie - please hang on</nowiki>

[12:17] Barbie Alchemi<nowiki>: I am sorry, my first time here</nowiki>

[12:17] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: great, I still need to give you that list of caveats too</nowiki>

[12:17] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Just report them and ban them. They will eventually get bored, especially if you don't respond to them.</nowiki>

[12:17] joy Pinklady<nowiki>: these ones dont</nowiki>

[12:17] joy Pinklady<nowiki>: ever</nowiki>

[12:17] Barbie Alchemi<nowiki>: OMG not these two! they have been banned hundreds of times</nowiki>

[12:17] Shrike Rossini<nowiki>: It's not that sime Talarus, please don't play us for fools, let's see what Simon Linden has to say when he's ready</nowiki>

[12:18] Simon Linden<nowiki>: ok ... so this is not the first time dealing with griefers has come up here. There are a few things that I'll mention that will hopefully make this a productive conversation</nowiki>

[12:20] Simon Linden<nowiki>: First, the Lindens here are developers, and we mostly work on the server. We're not part of support or the governance groups that actually deal with abuse reports and such. We do, however, look at and try to have technical solutions to problems like this</nowiki>

[12:21] Simon Linden<nowiki>: So we can't help you with specific cases like this ... it's unfortunate, but really the best thing to do is keep kicking, banning and reporting individuals</nowiki>

[12:21] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: I don't think it's the actual topic of griefing that is at the heart of the issue....just that these meetings are the only place you can actually get the attention of an actual linden...just that in most case you're contacting the wrong linden at these meetings. :)</nowiki>

[12:21] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: Simon, one of the problems we have run into is that apparently no one we are able to actually speak to is a part of the group that looks at those abuse reports. We get no response at all</nowiki>

[12:21] Barbie Alchemi<nowiki>: these two have illegal viewers and they are able to move my things on the sim</nowiki>

[12:21] AldonFairfield<nowiki>: What specific technical solutions would you suggest to we victimized citizens and owner...</nowiki>

[12:21] Jonvic Toshi<nowiki>: and I think Simon we are looking exactly for that, some technical solutions to help...it is the developers that can do this...maybe....</nowiki>

[12:21] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Now, that is something that can be looked at here..</nowiki>

[12:21] Simon Linden<nowiki>: It may be difficult to meet Lindens in-world, but reports are looked at</nowiki>

[12:21] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: and yet the same few individuals will target a venue or a performer and crash the sims repeatedly</nowiki>

[12:22] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: and have been doing so for years</nowiki>

[12:22] Barbie Alchemi<nowiki>: they are tenacious and NOTHING stops these two</nowiki>

[12:22] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Errr..that shouldn't be possible o.O You don't have your objects set to share with group or anything?</nowiki>

[12:22] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'm interested in hearing what sort of grief modes are being used.</nowiki>

[12:22] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: illegal viewers bypassing sim security checks</nowiki>

[12:22] Barbie Alchemi<nowiki>: NO!</nowiki>

[12:22] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Yes - Governance has no public meeting, and does not communicate with the Residence, therefore meetings like this are the De Facto representation of such issues to the Residents.</nowiki>

[12:22] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Barbie says they can move things around.</nowiki>

[12:22] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: flood insurance, got it?</nowiki>

[12:22] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: no whirly and we no it shouldnt be possible but it is</nowiki>

[12:22] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: know*</nowiki>

[12:22] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: you can even turn off scripts as well and they can do things they shouldnt be able to</nowiki>

[12:22] Simon Linden<nowiki>: ok, so about the most I can to with that info is to pass along the message that we have unhappy customers who have to deal with chronic griefers. That won't be news to anyone, but I can tell managers and execs and pass along that info</nowiki>

[12:23] Shrike Rossini<nowiki>: Today they were able to clear a sim when we host a venue of all prims entirely within seconds of being on the sim, that shouldn't be possible!</nowiki>

[12:23] Barbie Alchemi<nowiki>: yes! they have done that on my sim and also on Virtual Ability and both ours sims are dedicated to helping people with disabilities</nowiki>

[12:23] Nicholas Melchior<nowiki>: they have tools that can get around most region controls, yes</nowiki>

[12:23] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: They mass retirned everything?</nowiki>

[12:23] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: Simon who do we need to speak to to get something other than passed along</nowiki>

[12:23] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: if u guys tell the lindens what they to to grief u, maybe the can find some solutions to at least some of the things. like they could stop them from moving your things, no matter what viewer they r using</nowiki>

[12:23] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: we have venues that close down, performers that quit and yet nothing changes</nowiki>

[12:24] Barbie Alchemi<nowiki>: we tell them over and over and over and nothing happens</nowiki>

[12:24] AldonFairfield<nowiki>: Any inworld devices we can purchase from Linden Labs for best griefer ejection defence?</nowiki>

[12:24] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Now, there's also a big issue central to SL ... you are talking about imposing restrictions on a system (SL) that is designed to be open. You know the deal: anyone can make an account</nowiki>

[12:24] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: we do rex we all file report after report after report</nowiki>

[12:24] Shrike Rossini<nowiki>: not returned ... they were gone .. LL rolled back the sim to recover</nowiki>

[12:24] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: The problem is that there is no meaningful feedback for abuse reports. The formletter you get tells you nothing. Having the old police blotter was at least informative.</nowiki>

[12:24] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: u need a blog/site</nowiki>

[12:24] AldonFairfield<nowiki>: What is BEST reporting/security connectivity TO Linden Labs? Name please...</nowiki>

[12:24] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: AR</nowiki>

[12:24] Barbie Alchemi<nowiki>: it is the same two that do the most damage, we all know who they are</nowiki>

[12:24] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: all of this effects the economy of sl as well</nowiki>

[12:24] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: So it was as if they had picked up your objects without rights?</nowiki>

[12:25] Barbie Alchemi<nowiki>: yes!</nowiki>

[12:25] MartinRJ<nowiki>: when someone did something that he shouldn't be able to, you should promptly report a sec-issue at jira.secondlife.com including the region name. If you do that on the same day, someone will be able to look at the server logs, afaik</nowiki>

[12:25] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: yes whirly</nowiki>

[12:25] Nicholas Melchior<nowiki>: from a technical standpoint, I woudl recommend reviewing marketplace listings under weapons and looking at some of the capabilities they have</nowiki>

[12:25] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: One gets the impression that Governance is run by one Linden who turns up for work maybe once every 6 months.</nowiki>

[12:25] Simon Linden<nowiki>: So if your groups, land, etc are open, anyone can return. If you want to change, that, then the land needs to be locked down and restricted more. That's ugly when you are trying to be an outreach or get more customers, like newbies</nowiki>

[12:25] AldonFairfield<nowiki>: Anything?</nowiki>

[12:25] Jonvic Toshi<nowiki>: yes we understand Simon, no easy fix I know, but if there is anything at the sever level that can help maybe it can be considered....I know this is not a new issue</nowiki>

[12:25] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: Simon & Andrew, can you arrange to be at an event that is going to be griefed to see what is happening, how it is being done? Then may be figure out some new fixes?</nowiki>

[12:25] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: simon we understand and all use the usual lines of defense</nowiki>

[12:26] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: theres an alleged exploit around full sim prim return with certain spam object, but I can't say the name here</nowiki>

[12:26] Shrike Rossini<nowiki>: Yes Whirly everything on a sim which is split into many parcels and many object owners!</nowiki>

[12:26] Simon Linden<nowiki>: oh, I've been at enough, Nal. My alt goes to plenty of music events</nowiki>

[12:26] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: That may be possible Nalates.</nowiki>

[12:26] Barbie Alchemi<nowiki>: we are having a one year anniversary event this Sat 1-5, can a Linden be there to protect us?</nowiki>

[12:26] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: i even had a linden show up from a live chat on the sim once while we were being griefed and they still took it down</nowiki>

[12:26] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: I think that the default expectation is that the land is locked down, since that is the default setting anyway.</nowiki>

[12:26] Toysoldier Thor<nowiki>: yes what Nal says..... the Lindens need to witness these griefs and see how they are allowed to violate protections</nowiki>

[12:26] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I've never been able to get it to work though, but other claimed ot have</nowiki>

[12:26] Purdy Forcella<nowiki>: Most of griefers are newbies..because there allowed to make more and more avi's</nowiki>

[12:26] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: And WENGEN was just CRASHED .. griefers alive and well</nowiki>

[12:26] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: sometimes it is easy for us to spot the names but not always</nowiki>

[12:26] Barbie Alchemi<nowiki>: they have illegal viewers that can get thru anything</nowiki>

[12:26] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Is that the one there was the SLU thread about Lucia? Where people were having all objects returned off their parcels?</nowiki>

[12:27] Simon Linden<nowiki>: How much bad behavior is technical (object, particles, sounds, etc) vs just bad behavior (obnoxious chat, movement, etc?)</nowiki>

[12:27] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: what we are complaining about is technical simon</nowiki>

[12:27] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: the obnoxious griefers we can handle</nowiki>

[12:27] AldonFairfield<nowiki>: Would appreciate a "short list" of named anti-griefer devices now available....anything that actually works?</nowiki>

[12:27] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yes, Whirls</nowiki>

[12:27] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Oh, there was another thread too about a problem on mainland where people were able to move other peoples objects about when they shouldn't have been able to</nowiki>

[12:27] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: but someone crashing your sim repeatedly over the course of an hour we cant</nowiki>

[12:27] avantgarde Frequency<nowiki>: they can take a sim down in a nanosecond and erase it from the grid for hours Simon</nowiki>

[12:28] Purdy Forcella<nowiki>: objects...huge boxes bouncing about....they can also stop you using your own land controls....to stop you banning on your own sim</nowiki>

[12:28] Barbie Alchemi<nowiki>: they completely cripple us from being able to help people with parkinson's or raise money for the Michael J Fox Foundation</nowiki>

[12:28] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Is there anything helpful to be learned if a report of this sim-clearing event were made within minutes of its occurrence? (and the griefer-caused sim-crashes, too)</nowiki>

[12:28] Jonvic Toshi<nowiki>: in most cases Simon they try and crash the sim by running heavy scripted objects (they wear I guess)</nowiki>

[12:28] Nicholas Melchior<nowiki>: thw vast majority is technical. Knocking everyone on a sim offline, blasting your graphics card into slag, spamming invisible chat at a rate that takes the region offline</nowiki>

[12:28] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: that particular object ahs been used in the sandboxes I admin before many times and it hasn't succeeded in returnign anything, I still think the exploit involves if it was rezzed by a land owner though</nowiki>

[12:28] Nicholas Melchior<nowiki>: and with many of the newer griefer tools they buy on marketplace, the culprit cannot be identified</nowiki>

[12:28] Shrike Rossini<nowiki>: I've yet to report it on SLU, might do that Whirly</nowiki>

[12:28] avantgarde Frequency<nowiki>: and we have absolutely no defense</nowiki>

[12:29] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: "spamming invisible chat"... that means chatting on channels other than 0?</nowiki>

[12:29] Nicholas Melchior<nowiki>: which makes ARs and ban lists meaningless</nowiki>

[12:29] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: i dont know what they use but turning off object rezzing and scriipts does not solve it</nowiki>

[12:29] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: don;t waste your time trying to AR stuff on marketplace</nowiki>

[12:29] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: waste of ruddy time</nowiki>

[12:29] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: i tried</nowiki>

[12:29] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: i dont think what they use is on mp</nowiki>

[12:29] Toysoldier Thor<nowiki>: ok maybe this is more related to why i am here as I was thinking the past 2-3 weeks of sim instability at many large venue events was due to the new sim / viewer codwe</nowiki>

[12:29] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: no offence to th dudes here, but support aren't exactly helpful at the best of times (scouts that is)</nowiki>

[12:29] Barbie Alchemi<nowiki>: we truly need your protection from these two individuals</nowiki>

[12:30] joy Pinklady<nowiki>: absolutely</nowiki>

[12:30] Simon Linden<nowiki>: We definitely want to see bug reports about events where someone manages to bring a region down.</nowiki>

[12:30] Barbie Alchemi<nowiki>: we need your help</nowiki>

[12:30] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is half over</nowiki>

[12:30] magnus String<nowiki>: i think one main issue is that these tools are too available for all to use . especially on MP</nowiki>

[12:30] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Sin X : just to be sure: Not helped by turning off scripts on the land, or on the region?</nowiki>

[12:30] joy Pinklady<nowiki>: we are begging for your help</nowiki>

[12:30] avantgarde Frequency<nowiki>: direct question... is it possible for LL to ban a user's MAC address?</nowiki>

[12:30] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: MP = ?</nowiki>

[12:30] Nicholas Melchior<nowiki>: they bring regions down multiple times daily</nowiki>

[12:30] Barbie Alchemi<nowiki>: I am in SL trying to help people with Parkinson's and they are trying to hurt us</nowiki>

[12:30] magnus String<nowiki>: Marketplace</nowiki>

[12:30] Purdy Forcella<nowiki>: Wea ll put in abuse reports...nothing is done to help us venue owners...a lot are going out of business because of constant streams of griefing</nowiki>

[12:30] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: MP = marketplace</nowiki>

[12:30] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ok thanks</nowiki>

[12:30] Shrike Rossini<nowiki>: Simon, please provide me with a fall .. anything I can complete technical and will happily do so</nowiki>

[12:30] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: there are worse tools availabel for dl, the viewers themself can crash sims withotu scripts or obejcts</nowiki>

[12:30] Simon Linden<nowiki>: BARRY - not that I know of.</nowiki>

[12:31] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Barry: not in a way that is useful against technically-savvy griefers</nowiki>

[12:31] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i think the worse are the "custom" viewers not the scripted hud attacks</nowiki>

[12:31] Shrike Rossini<nowiki>: *form even</nowiki>

[12:31] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: we don't ban MAC addresses, they are too easy to spoof</nowiki>

[12:31] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: the region</nowiki>

[12:31] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That's easily spoofed, I believe</nowiki>

[12:31] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: The griffer viewers have a drop down on the login screen to spoof Mac heh</nowiki>

[12:31] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: IP addresses are harder to spoof, at least for high bandwidth connections</nowiki>

[12:31] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: They can bypass a Mac ba in a a second >.<</nowiki>

[12:31] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Proxy</nowiki>

[12:31] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: *ban</nowiki>

[12:31] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Sin X: so, again making sure: *no* scripts run on the region, not owners, nothing (because they're turned off with estate tools)?</nowiki>

[12:31] AldonFairfield<nowiki>: Are Second Life IP addresses invulnerable to Lindens' permanent bans....after 99 violations? Tell me no...</nowiki>

[12:31] Jonvic Toshi<nowiki>: I'll try to capture as much debug data as I can Simon next time I see a sim taken down and pass it on, but often you have seconds before the sim crashes</nowiki>

[12:31] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Yeah, IP blocks are pretty useless, too</nowiki>

[12:32] Nicholas Melchior<nowiki>: most pf the tools and weapons they use are readily available to anyone. I would strongly recommend examining those, and their capabilities to get an idea of what we are deasling with from a technical angle</nowiki>

[12:32] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: i am the owner qie</nowiki>

[12:32] avantgarde Frequency<nowiki>: maybe there's not enough common sense security built into the system...</nowiki>

[12:32] Toysoldier Thor<nowiki>: what we need simon and andrew is for someone at LL with some power to take the griefing issue serious and have LL learn what these greifers are actually doing and taking action. The fact that LL engineers do not know some of their tricks is concerning</nowiki>

[12:32] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Sin, I understand. I'm just making sure it's a full-on estate-level script shutdown for the region. In that case, yeah, there's no script involved.</nowiki>

[12:32] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: I have a real problem with the term common sense..</nowiki>

[12:32] reddot99 Republic<nowiki>: There's no such thing as common sense security with computers</nowiki>

[12:33] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: yes qie i shut them down for the entire region as the owner</nowiki>

[12:33] Shrike Rossini<nowiki>: Agreed Toy</nowiki>

[12:33] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: If someone crashes your region, you should file a JIRA at </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/secure/Dashboard.jspa<nowiki> with exact time the event happened, region name, and BEFORE you relog after you went down with the region, zup up your viewer logs folder and attach that to the JIRA issue using More Actions -> Attach files.</nowiki>

[12:33] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: i did whirly</nowiki>

[12:33] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Well, you can get around no-script with scripts; it just limits the griefing modes a bit.</nowiki>

[12:33] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: *zip</nowiki>

[12:33] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: and i got into live chat tech support as well</nowiki>

[12:33] Jonvic Toshi<nowiki>: This is perhaps unfair on you Simon and Andrew, this is not your area...but maybe you can help us find a way to improve matters</nowiki>

[12:33] Toysoldier Thor<nowiki>: LL should strike up a SL GRIEFER TASK FORCE to learn and come up with actions</nowiki>

[12:33] avantgarde Frequency<nowiki>: why would anyone need to put 60,000 scripts into an object? common sense suggests there is no legit need</nowiki>

[12:33] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: there is a type of n-scripting allowed that lindens use at sandbox weapons testing that stop all the scripts, maybe that would be useful for u guys</nowiki>

[12:34] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Thanks Sin. That's important. It pretyt much means it's a rogue viewer, nothing one can buy on MP (for that case anyway)</nowiki>

[12:34] reddot99 Republic<nowiki>: Rex, that's estate script disable,</nowiki>

[12:34] avantgarde Frequency<nowiki>: yet it appears that that's what they're doing</nowiki>

[12:34] Toysoldier Thor<nowiki>: I am need to run - windows installers here but i am going to post this then let others chat....</nowiki>

[12:34] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Rex, those script halt scripts do mroe harm than good</nowiki>

[12:34] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: i believe that is probably so qie</nowiki>

[12:34] Toysoldier Thor<nowiki>: I came today to make sure LL is aware of the recent (~ past 2 week) rash of sim instability, in particular - ONCE AGAIN - the large crowed event venues (like live music concerts, fashion shows, art shows). This weekend alone I was at 3 different venues (Friday, Saturday, Monday) where the sims were at about 80, 60, 50 respectively.</nowiki>

[12:34] Toysoldier Thor<nowiki>: Normally these sims/venues are able to handle these crowds quite well (been to them countless time without incident). But all 3 events had avatars lagging real bad and then forcing arbitrary large numbers of avatars to be instantly BOOTED. In all cases the sims did not crash but blocks of avatars get booted off. AND, once booted off, you are forced to wait 5 minutes before the avi is allowed to login AT ALL. At one event I was booted out with most 2 times. The other event 3 times before giving up.</nowiki>

[12:34] Toysoldier Thor<nowiki>: I talked to one sim owner yesterday that thought initially it was a new griefer attack but while Avis were booted off, her sim was showing normal healthy metrics.</nowiki>

[12:34] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: the last 5 times I've used live chat for an issue, they were not able to help me at all. Lol. I had to either call a phone number or file a support ticket because live chat = noob hand holding chat.</nowiki>

[12:34] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: and although it was an alt, they identified themselves as being a part of admirals group...he is a known griefer for music venues</nowiki>

[12:34] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Does anyone use (or find it being effective) the access limits for payment info on file, or age 18+ ?</nowiki>

[12:35] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i know lucia. i thought it might help them when they have a concert or something like that</nowiki>

[12:35] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: i havent found that useful simon</nowiki>

[12:35] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: It may be unfair to Simon And Andrew - BUT they are the (only) representatives ov LINDEN LABS that we get to see, and LL is being grossly unfair to Residents by doing nothing abut Greifing.</nowiki>

[12:35] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: wel also tried blocking new avatars</nowiki>

[12:35] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: we had a whole sim full of people at one of our parties on sunday get booted. wasn't a griefer attack, just server hiccup i guess</nowiki>

[12:35] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: or ejecting them immediately</nowiki>

[12:35] Jonvic Toshi<nowiki>: No Simon, where I am they can just land on another part of the SIM anyway</nowiki>

[12:35] Shrike Rossini<nowiki>: We need to be able to sim block at avatar age level not use tools to achieve the same thing</nowiki>

[12:36] Shrike Rossini<nowiki>: ie < 5 days</nowiki>

[12:36] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: My main hope is that S & L will take up the grifing issue with MANAGEMENT and persuade them to re-start the Governance department</nowiki>

[12:36] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: We need llElectrocuteMisbehavingUser() call :P</nowiki>

[12:36] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: well we tried that shrike...someone developed something for us</nowiki>

[12:36] avantgarde Frequency<nowiki>: why can't LL ban known offenders from all sims?</nowiki>

[12:36] Nicholas Melchior<nowiki>: also on the technical end, major venues really need a ban list with far greater capacity than 500 avatars. There are griefers out there that could easiy fill a large portion of a ban list with thir alts alone</nowiki>

[12:36] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: it was only slightly helpful</nowiki>

[12:36] Barbie Alchemi<nowiki>: I have the age limit on my sim, but not the payment limit</nowiki>

[12:36] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Toysoldier - yeah, we've seen those too and I've looked at some of the events. Often that is a network issue, or some attack that causes very bad lag the ends up breaking the sim-to-viewer link but the region manages to stay alive and come back</nowiki>

[12:37] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: nicholas, most high ban list count sandboxes or regions cycle their bans to accomodate newer bans</nowiki>

[12:37] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: these griefers are no fools and they have i am sure hundreds of alts so they simply use one that is slightly older</nowiki>

[12:37] Toysoldier Thor<nowiki>: ok... reason why lately?</nowiki>

[12:37] Toysoldier Thor<nowiki>: not the SSB code?</nowiki>

[12:37] avantgarde Frequency<nowiki>: let them keep their 500 accounts just don't allow them to go anywhere... except say Linden owned sims</nowiki>

[12:37] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and use a db</nowiki>

[12:37] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: For persistent griefers, as these are, avatar age won't help: they'll just keep an inventory of alts. Payment Info On File *might* help a little.</nowiki>

[12:37] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I don't think it's SSB</nowiki>

[12:37] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: You can rotate random avs off your ban list when it gets full. Making them check 500 accounts to figure out which one is unbanned is more trouble than creating another alt account</nowiki>

[12:37] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Bring back the Corn Field :)</nowiki>

[12:37] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: let yoshui do what he's good at</nowiki>

[12:38] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: yoshi*</nowiki>

[12:38] Simon Linden<nowiki>: lol Kitto - it's still there</nowiki>

[12:38] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: haha Corn field was an incentive to be bad. Everyone wanted to see that</nowiki>

[12:38] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: lol the cornfield?</nowiki>

[12:38] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: and there is *no* way to completely ban someone from the grid.</nowiki>

[12:38] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Yeah somon - but its unoccupied</nowiki>

[12:38] Nicholas Melchior<nowiki>: we have done that to some degree as well Lucy, but bans do not have date stamps and even cycling would only take a small bite out of it</nowiki>

[12:38] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Andrew, maybe it is time for another field trip to the Corn Field</nowiki>

[12:38] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: u know. u can allow people to your sim only after they payed 1000$L, when they leave they get their money back:)</nowiki>

[12:38] Simon Linden<nowiki>: It's been a while since we took a field-trip there</nowiki>

[12:38] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Corn filed is offline now :(</nowiki>

[12:38] Toysoldier Thor<nowiki>: I so want to stay and hear this but I need to go deal with my installers - Later all !!</nowiki>

[12:38] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: You can make it expensive by getting rid of free accounts, but that's about the extent of it.</nowiki>

[12:39] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: bye toy</nowiki>

[12:39] reddot99 Republic<nowiki>: Err, I'll disagree, but it is possible to totally remove somebody from the grid, but it takes a court order,</nowiki>

[12:39] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: Simon, i ercall a jira bout estate banningm, where if we banned soembody, it'd ban their alts by defaul too</nowiki>

[12:39] avantgarde Frequency<nowiki>: "and there is *no* way to completely ban someone from the grid." -----> maybe there SHOULD be a way... it's software create a way</nowiki>

[12:39] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i am a free account, but i don't grief. and there are others like me</nowiki>

[12:39] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: ring any bells?</nowiki>

[12:39] Nicholas Melchior<nowiki>: Between the estate list and backup orbs which are less effective I have over 1200 bans on my region. cycling isnt going to do it</nowiki>

[12:39] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: No Cornfield today. I'm trying to think of ideas on how to curb some grief modes.</nowiki>

[12:39] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: It's not a simple matter of software</nowiki>

[12:39] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: It is how the Internet works that is the problem</nowiki>

[12:39] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: AFK...............................</nowiki>

[12:39] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: afk</nowiki>

[12:39] Purdy Forcella<nowiki>: or make charge to join sl ..</nowiki>

[12:39] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: its teh only thing you can do though, you should have asystem keep track of when bans were made and maybe assign priorities/threat levels to each of teh accounts so their time is not all teh same or cycled earlier than others, you can't have unlimited ban counts in-world active at once</nowiki>

[12:40] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: we do undertsand the complexity of the issue</nowiki>

[12:40] avantgarde Frequency<nowiki>: it's a simple if then.... IF you grief... THEN you don't get to enter a sim that someone is paying almost 300 dollars a month for....</nowiki>

[12:40] Jonvic Toshi<nowiki>: Having script/memory limits or alarms for objects may help</nowiki>

[12:40] reddot99 Republic<nowiki>: May I ask an unrelated question?</nowiki>

[12:40] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: The problem is that there is no way to assign a "this is a griefer" tag to a RL person that sticks with that person.</nowiki>

[12:40] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: but we cant fix this alone</nowiki>

[12:40] avantgarde Frequency<nowiki>: that would feed a family of 30 for a year in some neighborhoods on this planet</nowiki>

[12:41] Duckie Dickins<nowiki>: this is the original reason for redzone *ducks and covers* :p</nowiki>

[12:41] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I'm going to assume limiting access to group members isn't considered because that would close down your venues too much</nowiki>

[12:41] Jonvic Toshi<nowiki>: lol Duckie</nowiki>

[12:41] Nicholas Melchior<nowiki>: sorry, thats just not practical</nowiki>

[12:41] Baker Linden<nowiki> ponders that a way to ban an agent / object based on script weight might be useful...</nowiki>

[12:41] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: lol hi5's duckie</nowiki>

[12:41] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Unless you want to hire Guido and Rocco to go on search-and-break-kneecap missions</nowiki>

[12:41] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Baker: Can definitely do that with scripts.</nowiki>

[12:41] Barbie Alchemi<nowiki>: they can get get their alt tojooin the group</nowiki>

[12:41] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: YES baker</nowiki>

[12:41] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Baker - yes - basically quota control for a region . Long asked for</nowiki>

[12:41] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: But can't prevent them from entering at first.</nowiki>

[12:41] avantgarde Frequency<nowiki>: we understand that you want the community to police it'self... what we are saying is that we have no viable means of doing that</nowiki>

[12:42] Baker Linden<nowiki>: you can write a script on an object to disallow objects with a certain script weight?</nowiki>

[12:42] avantgarde Frequency<nowiki>: we need tools</nowiki>

[12:42] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Yes</nowiki>

[12:42] Nicholas Melchior<nowiki>: we have been trying to police uorselves but simply dont have the tools</nowiki>

[12:42] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: hmmmm</nowiki>

[12:42] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: on the other hand there are already gadgets that do that for you.</nowiki>

[12:42] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yes Baker, that can be done</nowiki>

[12:42] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: perks</nowiki>

[12:42] Baker Linden<nowiki>: oh, that's pretty wicked</nowiki>

[12:42] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: hell i dumped a miandland sim and went to a pvt one since no help from g-team</nowiki>

[12:42] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: heh.. mainland.</nowiki>

[12:43] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I used to have one of those script-weight listers around here ... see llGetObjectDetails()</nowiki>

[12:43] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Theres kick out Av based on Script Load that they carry. Does not prevent the big hit when they TP in.</nowiki>

[12:43] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Simon, its in teh corner, lol</nowiki>

[12:43] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: There's one running over in the NW corner of this platform.</nowiki>

[12:43] Nicholas Melchior<nowiki>: when people can come on sim, knock some or all avatars offline at will with no means of tracking who is doing it, we are pretty much left at their mercy</nowiki>

[12:43] avantgarde Frequency<nowiki>: Imagine if you will ... if all of us with griefer problems hijacked every one of your meetings//// welcome to our wolr</nowiki>

[12:43] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: you need to upgrade that model too</nowiki>

[12:43] Simon Linden<nowiki> should pay attention</nowiki>

[12:43] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: yeah, the problem is still that you can't prevent any of those from entering the sim to begin with- so the damage is already done.</nowiki>

[12:43] reddot99 Republic<nowiki>: That would have to scan every object in the region, wouldn't it?</nowiki>

[12:43] Baker Linden<nowiki>: a region option for that would prevent that TP hit, I guess...</nowiki>

[12:43] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Also depends on how fast their griefing tools operate.</nowiki>

[12:43] avantgarde Frequency<nowiki>: they are very very fast Tal</nowiki>

[12:44] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: I really don't understand why LL don't block login to these griffer viewers. That can be done. A lot of them don't even bother to spoof channel.</nowiki>

[12:44] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: If they work fast enough, the detection script might get starved out before it can stop them</nowiki>

[12:44] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: i like the way you think baker</nowiki>

[12:44] Jonvic Toshi<nowiki>: yes it needs to be at a region level to work</nowiki>

[12:44] avantgarde Frequency<nowiki>: the nanosecond they land on the sim... it's dead in many cases</nowiki>

[12:44] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Baker: right, the TP hit *in*- and *out*bound.</nowiki>

[12:44] Simon Linden<nowiki>: while script weight is an issue for people making an area laggy, it's not really the same as the griefing problem</nowiki>

[12:44] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: right</nowiki>

[12:44] avantgarde Frequency<nowiki>: the sim goes red on the grid map</nowiki>

[12:44] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Yep, there are sim security issues that scripts can't detect/deal with</nowiki>

[12:44] avantgarde Frequency<nowiki>: and it takes hours to revive it</nowiki>

[12:44] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: i always assumed the new TPV program was the first step to locking out all non-approved viewers</nowiki>

[12:45] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Another small Question - What group/Linden is responsible for the new 'Experience' stuff - particularly llAttachToAvatarTemp() ???</nowiki>

[12:45] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Like, for example, when we get stats from LL, one channel used is "Firestorm Release - Firestorm Release" This is noy ours, its Darkstorm. Everyone knows its Darkstorm, so why is that channel allowed to login?</nowiki>

[12:45] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: It is just too easy to spoof which viewer you are using</nowiki>

[12:45] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-2467<nowiki> <--this would help some, heh, although it was shot down as usual</nowiki>

[12:45] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: *not</nowiki>

[12:45] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: u can also set a max limit for how many prims an avatar is allowed to rez on a sim/parcel:)</nowiki>

[12:45] MartinRJ<nowiki>: OS viewer-developers would have a very hard time when LL would ban all non-approved viewers, Tiger</nowiki>

[12:45] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Well, no, the TPV program stopped people from creating what they wanted to pass off as "legitimate" viewers with questionable functionality. It was never going to stop hacker viewers.</nowiki>

[12:45] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: So i take it as, Lindens don't know what viewers do the crashing, etc? Would detective work help, and handling the viewers over to you to investigate?</nowiki>

[12:45] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SEC-1247<nowiki> <--this would also help</nowiki>

[12:45] Simon Linden<nowiki>: it's been a variety of developers and managers, Kitto - what are you after?</nowiki>

[12:46] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i thought there is already a limit on max nr of scripts an obect can have</nowiki>

[12:46] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: rex most of us have no rezzing permitted</nowiki>

[12:46] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Simon - I have weird random problems with llAttachToAvatarTemp() - in a simple test it works, in a complex object it frequently fails.</nowiki>

[12:46] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Lex - since the viewer is open source, they are un-trusted. We have to rely on info the viewer itself sends to identify it.</nowiki>

[12:46] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: whats so hard about applying to get your custom fork approved if you're seriously going to work on something?</nowiki>

[12:46] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: its a very generous, 10000 scripts per object, rex, heh</nowiki>

[12:47] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: try filling the sim to max 15k prims. unless those r returned nobody can rez.</nowiki>

[12:47] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: or rather prim</nowiki>

[12:47] MartinRJ<nowiki>: viewer-devs are often working on 20 things at the same time :)</nowiki>

[12:47] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Rex, I think you can still rez temp-on-rez in a 15k prim region</nowiki>

[12:47] MartinRJ<nowiki>: nobody would have the time at LL to approve my 20 forks</nowiki>

[12:47] reddot99 Republic<nowiki>: I have a specific question about what happens when a script is reset, or heck, even the timeline that happens as a script loads?</nowiki>

[12:48] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: go ahead reddot99. Could you elaborate on that?</nowiki>

[12:48] Simon Linden<nowiki>: sure reddot, can you add details on what you want to know?</nowiki>

[12:48] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: temp tez has limits too</nowiki>

[12:49] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: I have a question about how to re-open old SCR cases so that they can be looked at on the scripting backlog.</nowiki>

[12:49] reddot99 Republic<nowiki>: Well, how does a script load? What happens in terms of memory when a script is reset?</nowiki>

[12:49] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and you can block temp rezzing too if you know how, heh</nowiki>

[12:49] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Simon - I have weird random problems with llAttachToAvatarTemp() - in a simple test it works, in a complex object it frequently fails. Who is working on that new stuff, may know of bugs?</nowiki>

[12:50] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: llAttachToAvatarTemp() is broken in a lot of ways. SSA viewer code broke it even more</nowiki>

[12:50] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Yeah detach anything and all temp attach vanish</nowiki>

[12:50] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Ya</nowiki>

[12:50] Barbie Alchemi<nowiki>: Can you give us the name of the specific Linden we need to speak to about the griefing issue?</nowiki>

[12:50] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: oops :P</nowiki>

[12:50] Simon Linden<nowiki>: There isn't a Manager of Griefers, Barbie</nowiki>

[12:51] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Is the Governance Team completely gone now?</nowiki>

[12:51] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: OOOh... that would be an awesome title, though.</nowiki>

[12:51] Barbie Alchemi<nowiki>: why not, since this the biggest problem in SL?</nowiki>

[12:51] Nicholas Melchior<nowiki>: the Governance team is in chage of that sort of thing but they are notoriously inaccessible</nowiki>

[12:51] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: we know thats why we are here lol</nowiki>

[12:51] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: No real feedback from the governance team</nowiki>

[12:52] Barbie Alchemi<nowiki>: I need help with protecting the people who have Parkinson's on our sim</nowiki>

[12:52] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Yeah, that's almost always been the case.</nowiki>

[12:52] Barbie Alchemi<nowiki>: and all others who come to support us</nowiki>

[12:52] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: reddot99, I'm trying to think how to answer your question, about scripts but it is so general...</nowiki>

[12:52] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: It was nice when we had Jack Linden to beat up over these issues, but he's gone now. :(</nowiki>

[12:52] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: the script is parsed and a ScriptObject is instantiated in the C++ code</nowiki>

[12:52] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: we do understand the legalities they are constrained by but simply a general response would help</nowiki>

[12:53] Mireille Jenvieve<nowiki>: I am concerned that some - if not all - of this griefing is cyberbullying, which is (depending on definition in situation) illegal.</nowiki>

[12:53] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: there did use to be a police blotter where you could seet some of the results of AR</nowiki>

[12:53] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: on reset... dunno if the object is thrown away and a new one is made ... more likely the old one is "reset"</nowiki>

[12:53] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: If its any comfort, one of my friends was having griffer issues on her region. She AR'd and within 10 mins there were 2 governance Lindens there , one called Governance3 Linden. So they do still exist ;)</nowiki>

[12:53] Nicholas Melchior<nowiki>: the illegalities being committed by griefers far outweigh and nullify any privacy issues</nowiki>

[12:53] Levio Serenity<nowiki>: i dont think the blotter has been used since 2010</nowiki>

[12:53] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: andrew: the old one is reset, but there are variations on how depending on how the script is reset</nowiki>

[12:53] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Barbie -- if anyone can walk onto your sim, meaning you are not restricted by group membership, payment info, age, etc ... you are wide open. Do you have any access restrictions outside of ban lists?</nowiki>

[12:53] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: well the griefing has even gone to extortion which is definately a crime</nowiki>

[12:53] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Nick, NOTHING outweighs privicy</nowiki>

[12:53] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: the "Governance" Lindens are follow-up crew</nowiki>

[12:54] Barbie Alchemi<nowiki>: no, we need to be open to the public</nowiki>

[12:54] Nicholas Melchior<nowiki>: Mireille, after having thoroughly researched the issues, much of what griefers do violates a number of US federal laws</nowiki>

[12:54] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: no simon we are a music venue and we want to share the music with anyone that wants to hear it....thats kind of the point</nowiki>

[12:54] Nicholas Melchior<nowiki>: sorry Kallista thats simply not true</nowiki>

[12:54] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: Even if you block people from your region they can cause trouble from an adjacent one</nowiki>

[12:54] Purdy Forcella<nowiki>: if you tick all of those boxes simon...live music venues wouldnt exist...</nowiki>

[12:54] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Then you're open to abuse. It's just like having an unlocked door on the street - anyone can walk in.</nowiki>

[12:54] avantgarde Frequency<nowiki>: we're dealing with international law...</nowiki>

[12:54] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: That's nice, but likely the griefers are not US citizens, so that won't help you here.</nowiki>

[12:54] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: public access, public rezzing areas are where a majority of griefing occurrs, heh</nowiki>

[12:55] Simon Linden<nowiki>: and public events, like music, unfortunately</nowiki>

[12:55] reddot99 Republic<nowiki>: Federal law applies since servers are hosted in united states</nowiki>

[12:55] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: u don't know who they r, nor do u know where they live</nowiki>

[12:55] Barbie Alchemi<nowiki>: we need help to prtect us from 2 specific individuals. we know who they are and where they live and the list of hundreds of their alts</nowiki>

[12:55] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is almost over</nowiki>

[12:55] Mireille Jenvieve<nowiki>: I wondered about that, Nick. It concerns me greatly.</nowiki>

[12:55] Nicholas Melchior<nowiki>: no but despite claims to the contrary, LL is responsible for what takes place on its systems. The "service provider" excuse went out with Napster</nowiki>

[12:55] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Thinking outside the box... if regions could require biometric ID (closed-source module, crypto, all that jazz)... wonder if they'd be interested. Would definitely rule out many attendees, though.</nowiki>

[12:55] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Where the servers are hosted doesn't really matter, except to the server host.</nowiki>

[12:55] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: when a griefer tells a performer that if they pay them, they will stop targeting them....that is illegal</nowiki>

[12:56] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Oh God, SL Mafia?</nowiki>

[12:56] Purdy Forcella<nowiki>: its blackmail</nowiki>

[12:56] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Yeah, that's nothing new</nowiki>

[12:56] Nicholas Melchior<nowiki>: oh we have been extorted by griefers a number of times</nowiki>

[12:56] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: u just heard of it whirly:)</nowiki>

[12:56] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yeah, nothing new, that crap happesn daily</nowiki>

[12:56] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Thats Extortion, not Blackmail</nowiki>

[12:56] Barbie Alchemi<nowiki>: when a griefer verbally harasses someone with a disability that is illegal</nowiki>

[12:56] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: but these people have the ability to shut down that performers show</nowiki>

[12:56] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: In general those that are attempting to involve RL Law Enforcement are finding that loss typical to SL are not enough to interest law enforcement. That means law suites. The cost of finding the individual to instigate a suite is higher than most can afford.</nowiki>

[12:56] Daemonika Nightfire<nowiki>: someoen tell me too abot phoenix baset viewers which allow you to take complete region owner rights</nowiki>

[12:56] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: hell, I'm azaed live music still goes on, ref th ip stream bug</nowiki>

[12:56] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I deal with extortionists every otehr day</nowiki>

[12:56] Nicholas Melchior<nowiki>: they even publish rl info on you on the web and demand you pay them to take it down</nowiki>

[12:56] Shrike Rossini<nowiki>: that's happening within the Live music community right now Whirly</nowiki>

[12:57] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Its a shame people can be such assholes...really..... :(</nowiki>

[12:57] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Welcome to humanity.</nowiki>

[12:57] Nicholas Melchior<nowiki>: you can AR and document all youo want, the same ones are still around with the same avatars</nowiki>

[12:57] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Daemonika - that sounds unlikely, but if you get real proof of that, I'd be very interested</nowiki>

[12:58] Barbie Alchemi<nowiki>: anything is possible with these two griefers</nowiki>

[12:58] Sinful Xubersnak<nowiki>: what we really want is a way to fight back</nowiki>

[12:58] Nicholas Melchior<nowiki>: Mal, US authorities have gone after much less</nowiki>

[12:58] reddot99 Republic<nowiki>: Barbie, go for a court order?</nowiki>

[12:58] Daemonika Nightfire<nowiki>: a proof i dont have, but i can ask friends for that, some people tell around that its a a viewer with an old Phoenix code with hacked god mode</nowiki>

[12:58] Nicholas Melchior<nowiki>: *NaL, sorry</nowiki>

[12:58] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: WE heard about that viewer she talks about based on Phoenix. No idea if it can really do that.</nowiki>

[12:58] Nalates Urriah<nowiki>: np</nowiki>

[12:59] Daemonika Nightfire<nowiki>: they tell, they can return all on the sim and turn off restart and more</nowiki>

[12:59] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Its the well known Phoenix based griff viewer though heh</nowiki>

[12:59] Shrike Rossini<nowiki>: LL simply need to stop these two individuals logging onto SL or prevent their viewer connecting to the grid</nowiki>

[12:59] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Right now, the only real way to fight back is to make walled gardens, and keep them well-pruned.</nowiki>

[12:59] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: its fake, Whirls</nowiki>

[12:59] Nicholas Melchior<nowiki>: that may be the pre-Phoenix Emerald viewer that caused so much fuss</nowiki>

[12:59] Jonvic Toshi<nowiki>: I need to head out, but thank you Simon, Andrew and Baker for listening.</nowiki>

[12:59] Lexbot Sinister<nowiki>: Hmm, i wonder if it would be somehow possible to create a sorts of "door/hallway" to pre-check the avatars before they enter the sim the first time..</nowiki>

[12:59] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: its advertised with those features, but it can't execut them</nowiki>

[12:59] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The top-secret god mode stuff is pretty well locked down ... we've learned to be paranoid :P</nowiki>

[12:59] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Thank you for coming, Jon</nowiki>

[12:59] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: WEll, thats good</nowiki>

[13:00] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: So, any response to the question about how to reopen old SCR issues so they can be considered again?</nowiki>

[13:00] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: they even coded it to display those features in teh tabs, buts its marketed to get peopel to install it so it can extract names and passwords, like many of these copybot viewers are doing now</nowiki>

[13:00] Meeter<nowiki>: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group</nowiki>

[13:00] Barbie Alchemi<nowiki>: I am so fearful after the things i have seen them do that I am afraid to hold events on my sim!</nowiki>

[13:00] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yes, it's easy to program the viewer to appear to be in god mode, that's just a simple switch. But not to actually do anything on the servers ... we don't trust anything a viewer sends to the server</nowiki>

[13:00] Kitto Flora<nowiki>: Are there any serious Client Developers here today?</nowiki>

[13:01] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: Btw, there is a bug in Phoenix viewer - the legit one and in other V1 based viewers I would imagine that makes estate banning with them useless. They don't really estate ban. So... never ever ever estate ban an avatar on a v1 based viewer. Unban them and reban with a v3 based viewer.</nowiki>

[13:01] Whirly Fizzle<nowiki>: The banned avatars will appear on ban list but they are NOT banned serverside</nowiki>

[13:01] Nicholas Melchior<nowiki>: well, the V1 viewers wont be much use for anything soon enough anyway</nowiki>

[13:01] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: well something is causing all those sims to crash, all those prims to be returned. it is a technical problem:)</nowiki>

[13:02] Barbie Alchemi<nowiki>: and somehow they can pick my items and move them around while I am watching!</nowiki>

[13:02] MartinRJ<nowiki>: would be a good start if LL would fix the 'turn off scripts estatewide' switch so it doesn't break content anymore</nowiki>

[13:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yes, and we're constantly working on those crashes, Rex. It's an arms race that's been going on for more than the 6 years I've been in it</nowiki>

[13:02] Nicholas Melchior<nowiki>: unless you want to look at avatar texture maps all day</nowiki>



 
[[Simulator_User_Group]]
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