Second Life Wiki - User contributions [en]

TPVD/Developers Group Agenda

2013-04-19T08:05:48Z

Geenz Spad:

Next meeting: '''Noon SLT, Friday April 19 at Hippo Theater'''

:''Attendees should add agenda items as needed - see comments when you edit the page''

* Status of viewer-beta & viewer-development
* Gamma Correction in TPVs [[User:Geenz Spad|Geenz Spad]]

==Current Topics:==

# Server Side Appearance
# Server Side HTTP changes
# Materials
# Fmod Ex & Vivox Upgrade
# Group Bans

== New Topics: ==



[[Category:Third Party Viewers]]

Material Data

2012-09-11T22:49:33Z

Geenz Spad: Corrected how alphas are treated in alpa blending (255 = full opaque in alpha blending land, 0 = fully transparent)

{{RightToc}}

{{Warning|The information in this page applies to the work being done in the {{JiraIssue|STORM-1905|Normal & Specular Maps (aka Materials) Project}}. None of this will work until that has been completed and released - and until that time, it may be subject to change.}}

This page describes how the various parameters and texture data used to define a material in Second Life are interpreted for rendering. It is intended to help content creators and external tool developers to better understand how to create images to achieve good visual results.

There are as many as two colors and three images associated with a face.
==Colors==

;Color
:a solid color for the surface; not used if a Texture is also specified

;Specular Color
:this is a color that ‘tints’ any reflections from the face; see also [[#Specular Map|Specular Map]]

==Textures==

===Texture===

Also called the '''Diffuse Map''', this is an image that is displayed on the surface. The way the texture is applied to the face is controlled by

====Positioning & Scaling Properties====
:;Mapping
::''Default'' or ''Planar''
:;Horizontal Repeats:number of repeats of the image over the surface (used only in default mapping)
:;Vertical Repeats:number of repeats of the image over the surface (used only in default mapping)
:;Rotation:clockwise degrees the image is rotated
:;Repeats Per Meter:number of repeats of the image per in-world meter of the surface (used only in planar mapping)
:;Horizontal Offset:distance in meters the image is shifted right on the surface
:;Vertical Offset:distance in meters the image is shifted up on the surface

===Normal Map===

An image whose color data encodes changes to the "normal" for each pixel on the surface. The normal is the direction that the pixel "faces" for the purpose of determining how it is illuminated by and reflects light sources (imagine that each pixel is turned on tiny pivots). See the [[#Texture Channel Encoding|Texture Channel Encoding]] table below.

The Alpha channel value of the Normal Map is used to encode how brightly the pixel reflects light: its ''Specular Exponent''.

;Positioning:The Normal Map has its own set of the same [[#Positioning & Scaling Properties|Positioning & Scaling Properties]] properties as the [[#Texture|Texture]].

===Specular Map===

This encodes the color of the light reflected by each pixel on the surface. See the [[#Texture Channel Encoding|Texture Channel Encoding]] table below.

The Alpha channel value of the Specular Map encodes how well the surrounding environment (the sky and other non-point-source illumination) is reflected from the pixel.

;Positioning:The Specular Map has its own set of the same [[#Positioning & Scaling Properties|Positioning & Scaling Properties]] properties as the [[#Texture|Texture]].

===Texture Channel Encoding===

{|border="1" style="width: 100%; border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0; border-width: 1px; border-style: solid; border-color: #000; padding: 0;"
|+How the renderer will treat each color value in a texture image channel
|-
!Parameter
!Red
!Green
!Blue
!Alpha
|+
!Diffuse Map
|Red
|Green
|Blue
|''selectable''
see [[#Alpha Mode|Alpha Mode]]
|+
!Normal Map
|Normal X Axis
|Normal Y Axis
|Normal Z Axis
|Specular Exponent
|+
!Specular Map
|Red
|Green
|Blue
|Environment Mask
|}

==Additional Parameters==

;Alpha Mode
:This controls the interpretation of the Alpha channel data in the Diffuse Map. It can have one of four values:
:;Ignored:Alpha channel data is not used
:;Transparency (blended):The value is a degree of transparency (255 = opaque, 0 = fully transparent)
:;Alpha Mask (cutoff):The value (0...255) is compared to the Alpha Cutoff parameter (below); if the pixel is greater than the cutoff, it is fully opaque; if not, it is fully transparent.
:;Emissive:The value is used to encode how brightly the pixel emits light (glows): 0 = no glow; 255 = full brightness

;Alpha Cutoff
:Used only when Alpha Mode is Alpha Test (see description of that mode above)

;Specular Light Color
:Tints the light reflected from the object; this value is combined with any value from the color for the pixel as specified in the Specular Map, if any.

;Environment Intensity
:Modulates the intensity of the environment on the surface as a whole. When an environment mask is present in the specular map, the environment mask is modulated by this to provide better control over the intensity of the environment that’s being reflected (some parts of the surface can reflect the environment more or less than others).

;Glossiness
:This controls the “glossiness”, or the roughness, of the reflected light on a surface. The lower this value is, the “rougher” the light reflectance is, while the higher the value the “sharper” the light reflectance is. When the normal map’s alpha channel is present, the specular exponent map contained in it is modulated by this parameter.

Content Creation Improvement Informal User Group

2012-09-11T21:41:42Z

Geenz Spad:

Content Creation Improvement Informal User Group/Archive/August 21st, 2012 Meeting

2012-08-21T23:32:47Z

Geenz Spad: Created page with "{|style="border-collapse: collapse; border-style: none;" |- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;" | 15:03  | style="white-space:nowrap…"

{|style="border-collapse: collapse; border-style: none;"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:03 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| for anyone just arriving, you can find the agenda here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation_Improvement_Informal_User_Group
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| today we'll be focusing on the UI discussion first
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:05 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oz.linden Oz Linden] 
| Introductions.... Brooke is coordinating all our efforts for Materials, and Leo is our UI designer tasked with making the changes needed for the materials project. He'd like to leverage the input from this group. Be nice. Take it away Leo...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/leonidas.the mighty Leonidas the Mighty] 
| thanks
[15:06] Braydon RandtBraydon Randt listens attentivly
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:06 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| hi all :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/leonidas.the mighty Leonidas the Mighty] 
| We've heard some suggestions and input, and there have been some drawings of a UI for materials.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| on that note, I'll do a quick recap of last week's discussion
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/leonidas.the mighty Leonidas the Mighty] 
| I'd like to take the opportunity to take a step back and find out
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| what tasks this group finds most important for users to have
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| in the new materials functionality
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:07 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| we've put together a doc with some preliminary user stories
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| https://docs.google.com/a/lindenlab.com/document/d/1UKJfP7S3Ptwdp-bSFc1MAwfU2E61vk2R-RDpTNRGO1Q/edit
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| that everyone should feel free to examine. if anyone here is unfamiliar with the term "user story" I am happy to discuss.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:08 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| geenz, i'm sorry, i did not see your message.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| it's fine
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/leonidas.the mighty Leonidas the Mighty] 
| would you like to recap?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| indeed! :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:09 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| "As a builder, I don't want the tools floater becoming larger and taking up additional litmited screen space." :p
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| so, last week during our build UI discussions, Trinity had an interesting idea: let's break down building tasks ranging from the simple functions of placing an object (such as a couch, car, bed, etc.) to the more advanced functions such as adjusting a prim's flexible properties, a prim's inventory, and so on
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:10 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| As a resident builder I have no idea what a normal specular thingy is and want it to go away
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/motor.loon Motor Loon] 
| and no extra window opening like the stupid "More info" button in the build floater now °͜°
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:11 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| "More info"?
[15:11] Oz LindenOz Linden suggests that we improve the tone of the discussion by leaving out value-loaded terms like "stupid"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| Im veyr interested in a basic build mode, simple tools with simple controls that do just enough for a consumer. then a great big Advanced button that exposes all the magic for builders
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/isla.gealach-nayar Isla Gealach-Nayar] 
| I would disagree that the items inventory is useless to the average user. Some things require access to that for the average user. (like sitters, etc)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:12 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| (What Oz said) Yes, please, these meetings take long enough as is without banter. :p
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| how about we focus on Leo's topic first (I imagine that today's guests may not be able to make it through the entire meeting today)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/motor.loon Motor Loon] 
| Sorry, wasn't trying to banter - that's just how I talk °͜°
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/xentha.melune Xentha Melune] 
| I remember when there used to be a 'more' button that actually extended the build window downwards into what is currently the tabs and all the things therein.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| I disagree Isla, a consumer has no need to see inside the couch they are rezzing
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:13 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| well what does your average user need access beyond moving stuff around in space? Because you can access that with Ctrl, Alt and the mac equivalent and don't really need the build box there at all /shrug
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/brooke.linden Brooke Linden] 
| thanks, geenz, yes we have to jump off at 3:30
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| Xen, I recrated that functionality in Ph/FS
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:14 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| I don't know, since I use ALL of the build tools
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/xentha.melune Xentha Melune] 
| I'm just saying, it used to be a kinda nice thing to have. Why not have something similar for newer build tools instead of a whole new floater?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/brooke.linden Brooke Linden] 
| what we're looking for scope wise is how to more effectively manage texture building, with the new map types being added in
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| keyboard shortcuts all all well and good - once you know them.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| build tools and build tools 2 ?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| I don't find the tools floater colapsing all that useful though, usually I just minimize it instead to stay in build-mode.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| which for those interested, are normal maps, specular maps, and a few different additional parameters here and there
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:15 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| Brooke, are you just going to add new texture pick boxes for the new maps? Can I suggest a little >> on the side of the texture tab that pops out to the new functions?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/octaviajane.farquart OctaviaJane Farquart] 
| wewt
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| i fell that the user story is more than acceptable , for the average builder, yet may not be simpl enough for the non builder/dabbler
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/xentha.melune Xentha Melune] 
| Each to their own preferences. Not all of us are viewer developers and can modify it to our own preferences.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| Not meant directly at you, just, pointing it out. :p
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/brooke.linden Brooke Linden] 
| so, we're going to focus on *what* the users need to do today
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:16 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/leonidas.the mighty Leonidas the Mighty] 
| The user stories are pitched at the group most likely to use the new features, at least at first -- more advanced builders
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/brooke.linden Brooke Linden] 
| and then we'll look at *how* we put that in the tools :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| Ok
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| I would suggest, instead of changing the build panel, a drop menu system similar to the avatar/world/build thing, likt, right under the landmark bar. If you keep all of the tools useable, but out of the way with easy access, it should make most happy.. I use all of the tools, but it gets annoying having to maneuver my camera around the build box
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| I think there is certainly room to punt the entire build tools as advanced into a tabbed sidebar assembly - there there are no problems with size, no need to keep jamming more and more in one teeny floater. Pretty much the standard for any other 3D application
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/octaviajane.farquart OctaviaJane Farquart] 
| id like an advanced builders button please
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/nal Nal] 
| When I am texturing using in-world textures, there is lots of searching for the right texture. It seems like Normal and Spec maps are going to add lots more searching. If the Build Panel is split up, may be split off a texturing panel, so it can be big enough to work with,
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:17 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| There is no sidebar.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oz.linden Oz Linden] 
| you're all talking about How... Leo is asking about What and Why
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/leonidas.the mighty Leonidas the Mighty] 
| At this point in the project it's premature to consider how these controls would be invoked or presented.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| it might be worth doing like you do with colour and texture , yet on the texture add the buttons for normal and spec
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| or better yet, as people have to pass the mesh test to upload mesh, why not have a "designer" viewer with all the tools, and a normal viewer with no build tools? then only allow registered builders to get a hold of the designer viewer
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/leonidas.the mighty Leonidas the Mighty] 
| the user stories are step 1. if we can nail those down with your help, we can proceed to which controls we'd need, and then later to how they'd be presented
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| I want options for everything I can edit easily accessible
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:18 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/motor.loon Motor Loon] 
| Personally I'd think they'd be most logically placed next to the Texture and Color slots of the "Texture" tab... but I'm unsure just how much more you need with materials than the "Normal" and "Specular" texture slots...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oz.linden Oz Linden] 
| For example, the current user stories do not address whether repeats and rotations should be applicable independently to the diffuse, normal, and specular textures....
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/helpless Helpless] 
| largest current use by everyone for build tools will be "edit my attachment", followed by "place my <thing I rezzed>"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| One issue with the tabbed layout is that the tab bar gets scrolled.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| yes OIZ, absolutly
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| well ..... how its presented is " end of line" for the project ... what i want functionality wise ... is covered well enough in the user story
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/motor.loon Motor Loon] 
| ..the transparency and glow could be moved underneath the current texture and color slots to make room mabye
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| Oz*
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:19 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| For mesh items, I don't care because they will use their own
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/brooke.linden Brooke Linden] 
| are there additional user stories that are missing?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/vaalith.jinn Vaalith Jinn] 
| I don't see any reason to separately apply repeats/rotations to what essentially are parts of a single material.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| well, for me anyway
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/leonidas.the mighty Leonidas the Mighty] 
| Braydon, thank you -- this is the feedback I need -- or to hear tht there are stories missing
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/motor.loon Motor Loon] 
| well, the question is if they are to have their own values for offset - or simple use the same as the diffuse texture uses right?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oz.linden Oz Linden] 
| that is a good question, Motor
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:20 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/motor.loon Motor Loon] 
| Might be usecases where it'd be nice to allow to seperate settings
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| assuming there are differences in texture and normal map resolution, the ability to fine tune the position of the normal map is essential
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| I can think of one
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| if you want to use a normal map as a detail texture primarily
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oz.linden Oz Linden] 
| for example, if they are locked to each other, I get alignment automatically; if not, I can create many visual combinations with a small number of textures
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/motor.loon Motor Loon] 
| like if you use a texture with repeats on your face, but dont want the normal map to act that way...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:21 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/vaalith.jinn Vaalith Jinn] 
| hm, i was wrong. fair point Motor.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/motor.loon Motor Loon] 
| but that's going to be somewhat more info that needs to be sent to the viewer for each face on the object's prims
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| it'd be managable
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:22 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/motor.loon Motor Loon] 
| than I'd deffinately do it...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| It'll take up more space for the UI too though
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| like... you'd pretty much need 2 more tabs like the current "Texture" tab...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:23 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| im not happy with the fact that a bump map can only be previewed and not canceld, thats kinda no preview *lol*
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| is there anything else? we only have a few more minutes with today's guests regarding the user stories here
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/leonidas.the mighty Leonidas the Mighty] 
| The UI is crowded, yes, and we don't want it to sprawl unnecessarily. it's a challenge.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/motor.loon Motor Loon] 
| nods
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| how about .......
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| and edit object ... in addition to a build tab
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| features first, if the UI doesn't fit, thats a bug
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:24 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| ok scratch that < rethink
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/brooke.linden Brooke Linden] 
| we'll be leaving this page accessible after the meeting, so feel free to send us feedback
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/leonidas.the mighty Leonidas the Mighty] 
| look for stories we missed, first and foremost
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| Ok
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/leonidas.the mighty Leonidas the Mighty] 
| and any detail that needs to be added
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oz.linden Oz Linden] 
| Send email ( _not_ notecards, please ) to me... I will collect and share
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/brooke.linden Brooke Linden] 
| we are also going to provide some information on the forums for the broader group, but don't plan to share this document until then
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:25 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| we'd like to have a chance to roll in your feedback and then share it more broadly
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/motor.loon Motor Loon] 
| can we edit that user stories page?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:26 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| As a resident builder .. I need to know what can be accomplished before I can come up with meaningful ideas as to what I would like to do with the tools or how they should work.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/brooke.linden Brooke Linden] 
| unfortunately, no, Motor
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:27 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| please send us feedback through oz
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/motor.loon Motor Loon] 
| As a builder ... I want to be able to specify both normal maps and specular maps per face on my prim. (assume it'd work that way, but since you're asking)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| basics are enough at this time ..... upload, edit and download
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/brooke.linden Brooke Linden] 
| so perhaps we need to give a bit of a primer on what's possible with normal and specular maps?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| very much so
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/brooke.linden Brooke Linden] 
| that's reasonable
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:28 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sachi.vixen sachi Vixen] 
| It doesn't mention diffuse maps, they are important too
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/motor.loon Motor Loon] 
| diffuse we already have
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| not just teh basics, but what the limits possible with the SL implementation are
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| Diffuse is what we currently work with
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/brooke.linden Brooke Linden] 
| we'll work on a summary that we can add to this document
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| Oz and I need to put together some docs regarding that is is
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| thank you ㋡
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| as is even*
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:29 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/brooke.linden Brooke Linden] 
| and the changes for normal and specular may affect the diffuse maps, so it may be important to list what is currently supported for diffuse maps
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| normals maps are better bump maps they give high rez detail to low rez objects by telling the lighting how to bounce of the object and specular maps are how something reflects light
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:30 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/brooke.linden Brooke Linden] 
| unfortunately, we need to jump off
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| alright, we'll get on the documentation for the materials project very soon
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oz.linden Oz Linden] 
| other commitments are calling....
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/brooke.linden Brooke Linden] 
| it looks like we have some action items to follow up on :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| thanks to Leo and Brooke (Oz too!) for coming by!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| thank you Lindens
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:31 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/brooke.linden Brooke Linden] 
| we'll take care of those and look forward to additional feedback
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| thanks so much!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| bye!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| thankies
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oz.linden Oz Linden] 
| (incidentally, if you have time, some discussion of a slightly earlier time for this meeting would mean I could attend more reliably)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sachi.vixen sachi Vixen] 
| Bye Lindens, thanks
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oz.linden Oz Linden] 
| (or maybe later so that I stay away would be better :-) )
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| ttfn
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:32 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| so back to us mere mortals then
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| oh lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:33 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| right, well let's get back to the UI discussion from last week
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| unfortunately I can't enable rezzing on the parcel, so for now I'll be putting Trinity's images on some prims
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:34 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| please excuse the roughness .. just to flesh out an idea
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:35 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| Ow, my screen space
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| so I believe the first one is the advanced option, the second is the basic option
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| point 1 you should be able to SEE what uoi are building, not a mess of floaters you have to keep dodging or moving about
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:36 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| this kind of format is pretty standard game in any 3d content creation application. Can you imagine blender or max if it had a build floater .. no, not really
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:37 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/motor.loon Motor Loon] 
| I like the "advanced" mode idea... espicially if it remembers your preference for it so you only have to select what mode to use once
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| remember the sidebar we all hated
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| I like the basic concept but I would like to see the contents rearranged somewhat to make the advanced mode narrower
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:38 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| I didn't hate the sidebar, I find the new system of floaters all over my screen very annoying
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| yes, same
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| floater are a mess
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| Constantly moving it around to see what's behind it, access HUDS etc
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| kinda funny, now that the sidebar is gone, people miss it all of a sudden :p
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| Not really, lol.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:39 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/motor.loon Motor Loon] 
| key element is options to customize to personal taste
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kaz.nayar Kaz Nayar] 
| I'm fine with docked windows as long as I have the option to tear them off
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| and I think finding ways to make smaller tighter floaters is a blind alley. were already at a pretty high density on the build tools and now LL want to add a dozen more controls and texture pickers
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/motor.loon Motor Loon] 
| and for the record... I missed the sidebar - atleast for a few weeks after it went away lol..
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| (kinda off topic lol)..I still vote for a builders viewer. personally, i get sick of it when a customer contacts me saying that their item doesnt work anymore, because they decided to delete the scripts or did something else to break it, and they dont know how to build, so they have no idea what they did.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| well fi you see the basic mode buildiing pic I did
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| thats the idea
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| but having things in a "builder bar" seems to make more sense, i think
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| dont expose the tool chest by default
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:40 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| once you get skilled up, make the basic buttons go away as you dont need they anymore
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| I am not a fan of tool bars in the viewer.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| Is anyone familiar with the new Blender UI?
[15:40] Oriana KuhrOriana Kuhr nods
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| there's a new new blender UI?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| yes I am Siddean
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:41 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| yes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| The way they arrange the tools under the T and N options may work
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| and its good
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| with little flydown subsections
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| i thin the new UI is far easier to work with. especially how we can resize the panels
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kaz.nayar Kaz Nayar] 
| I kind of liked the idea of having separate menus.. a build menu and an edit menu.. even if that means repeating some tools. Maybe even have the option in preferences to activate the build menu. Edit being default.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| Like a subsection for Position that you can open when you need it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| yeah, the tools hitind is neat
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| *hiding
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| specifics dont help at this point
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:42 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| it seams as though the texturing subsystem is becoming its own system outside a build menu
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| i think Blender should make a viewer, so we can build inworld..lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/motor.loon Motor Loon] 
| main problem with the sidebar was that it was completely unflexible... had it been the opposite it might have been loved
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| I'm not talking about specifics, I'm talking about arrangement of the items we have there now
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| if you have a great idea for laying out some widgits for something, write it down and keep it for when its helpful - you say goiod stuff now and its gonna be forgotten
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| at one point, wasnt the build box in the LL viewer, resizable? a few years ago maybe? that helps
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| these meetings are logged Trinity
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:43 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| well, I think for building it can work pretty well - NO sidepanels at all, none of that full sidebar group properties rubbish
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:44 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| There is no sidebar anyway.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| Siddean brought up would work, i think. its like having a sidebar that is temporary. in blender, you hit T or N and your potions pop up. then you tat T or N again to hide them, but they are always fast to access
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/motor.loon Motor Loon] 
| a floating window that's dockable - and if docked it would act like a sidebar perhaps... making your worldspace smaller and thereby changing "center of screen" so you wouldn't have to move anything to work the worldspace
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| it would be idea
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| that can be easily fixed kadah
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| *ideal
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/motor.loon Motor Loon] 
| ..best of both worlds
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/isla.gealach-nayar Isla Gealach-Nayar] 
| It would be ideal if it could dock.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| yes - a side bat with advanced tools that folds in and out as you need
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| Just its lingering trash.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| Having tools hidden under flydowns till you need them also makes better use of screen realestate
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:45 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kaz.nayar Kaz Nayar] 
| changing center of screen is key for that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| we don't need all that stuff out on display all the time when we're not using it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| in blender, the ONLY thing you can see that lets you know those menus are there, is a teeny weeny little plus sign up in the corners
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| they dont take up any space at all
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| yes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:47 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| they are also resizable, in case you want them open, but need a little more room to see
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| I do really like that in BL .. the rest of the new UI isnt really that innovative, more like a finally waking up to how other apps have been doing it for the last 15 years
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| so kind of a "now you see just what you need, and now you don't" kind of affair
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/isla.gealach-nayar Isla Gealach-Nayar] 
| yes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| Yep
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| (note: I haven't actually tried the latest version of blender)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/isla.gealach-nayar Isla Gealach-Nayar] 
| it works the same in maya
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:48 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| ah
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| Maya I can relate to!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/isla.gealach-nayar Isla Gealach-Nayar] 
| (and has done for quite some time)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| very keen not to reinvent the wheel or some kind of new wheel. but I do want to see consumer level controls that would be more at home in the sims
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| The few people I know that use Blender have said they hated to new UI.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| where as I dont .... as im a builder
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:49 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| http://imgur.com/Wgy3T this is how mine is usually setup
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kaz.nayar Kaz Nayar] 
| my one UI wish has always been the ability to drag windows off screen like Photoshop allows. (handy with dual monitors)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/isla.gealach-nayar Isla Gealach-Nayar] 
| But really the ability to dock the advanced window and re-centre the view would be amazing. It would eliminate all the floaters.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| the same people who still use V1 I bet ....
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/motor.loon Motor Loon] 
| everybody hate change - until they get used to it °͜°
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| the new UI is more reliable, imho
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/drongle.mcmahon Drongle McMahon] 
| I hated it, but now I like it.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| you can dual monitor withblender as well
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| the new blender UI makes the application usable without nweding to learn everything
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| mine is set up similar to that, Siddean :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:50 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/motor.loon Motor Loon] 
| oh god... if I could dual monitor Second Life™ it would be awesome ;-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kaz.nayar Kaz Nayar] 
| It really would
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| the old blender you never knew how to do something till you found a tutorial. the new one is discoverable
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| there are so many features that we use in other 3d programs, that would be useful in sl, without creating "more junk" to get in the way
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| old blender was " too much at once"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| you cant dual monitor SL ?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| The object tools on the left is how I would envision the SL build panel
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kaz.nayar Kaz Nayar] 
| you can't drag menus off, no
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/motor.loon Motor Loon] 
| no you can't move a window to your other screen.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/isla.gealach-nayar Isla Gealach-Nayar] 
| Siddean - http://cl.ly/image/2q1Z393l1F0M
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kaz.nayar Kaz Nayar] 
| they're bound within second life
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/drongle.mcmahon Drongle McMahon] 
| Where did the tabs go?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:51 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| blender 2.49- was basically, here are the menus, now try to find stuff. I think the new UI is easier to navigate
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/isla.gealach-nayar Isla Gealach-Nayar] 
| same concept
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| you can stretch SL over 2 monitors
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| hell .. i can drag it over three
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| so, say, texturing tools?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| would this be its own "mode" with its own button in the toolbar?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kaz.nayar Kaz Nayar] 
| yes, you can drag it but thats not what I mean
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| and I'm assuming that the tool properties would change accordingly
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:52 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| or would it just kind of be "there"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| as it were
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| i say that with the amount of texturing stuff comming .... a textur men u would most likely be the best bet
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| in the basic mode - yes. only show controls relevant to what you are doing right now
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| and everything that isnt absolutly needed most of the time is advanced
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:53 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| simple example, there woul dbe no way to rename a prim you have rezzed in the basic tools
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| so say, as a consumer, I want to retexture my couch, or change the color of it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/drongle.mcmahon Drongle McMahon] 
| S how do you tell it - now I want to do textures?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| i just dont see the point in having everything RIGHT THERE when you dont want it to be. Docking can even be annoying. i constantly have to move around the build menu. its so annoying
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| click texture button, get texture and color params?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| then you are a builder and you can go learn the big boys build tools
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/helpless Helpless] 
| if you're not using a scripted menu, then you're already doing something advanced, Geenz
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/motor.loon Motor Loon] 
| for advanced mode however - I'd like to be able to do my "thing" with a little clicks as possible - as little switching between "menus" for get to the information or button I need
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:54 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| I don't know if a basic mode is really going to work to be honest. Everyone has their own basic needs
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| Some people ONLY need to remove scripts and never do anything else
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| while others are only interested in moving stuff around
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| so we need a " break it " button then Siddean * lol*
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| and others might want to texture a little but never delve any deeper
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| somepeople need to stop telling newbies that they need to descript things
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| I'm looking at it from a basic standpoint here; surely there's some very basic functions relating to textures that should be exposed in a simple way (I see many people who like to change the color of something all the time, even if they don't care about the texture)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:55 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| I agree with that but some things still have a thousand scripts in them!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| you have a home in SL, you need to rez, move, rotate and remove. that's it.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| there should be a "shut off all scripts" button somewhere, so that people who dont know how to navigate the menus can turn them off
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:56 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| "break my object" button for the scripts issue :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| people messing with the script removal, when they dont know what they are doing, can get bad
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| basic tools will not contain anything that would be classed as descructive
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| Oriana - there is no reason to ever remove scripts
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| i think ... click on the texture and get the texture options available ........ such as defuse, colour .. normal and spec
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| i know that, but some people dont
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| I'm not advocating removing scripts! I am quite glad that they can't be removed from no mod stuff myself
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| It was probably a bad example
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| i always turn mine off, but i have been building since 05, so i am familiar with the tools
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| i think most users "attempt" to build something at some point
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:57 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| Ok how about.. Some people just want to add sit animations and a sit helper to their couch
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/isla.gealach-nayar Isla Gealach-Nayar] 
| I get that a LOT
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kaz.nayar Kaz Nayar] 
| Scripts being in or out of an object should be up to the creator tbh
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| if they cant build ..... a sit helper is like asking them to fly a plane
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| Point is. at some stage you are going to need to delve into the build tooks
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| tools
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| but someone going to a laggy club wants to complain because they removed the scripts in their favorite boots so they wouldnt cause lag, will come to me and complain later when they cant change their textures
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| thats very advanced siddeean - editing, inventory, operation of a complex scripted tool
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| some tools should not be available to the open non-building public
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| imho
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| agreed
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| So a basic mode isn't really all that useful beyond moving and tinting.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:58 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/octaviajane.farquart OctaviaJane Farquart] 
| i think you should keep the basic building options that you have right now .. because lets be honest .. if its too basic ..they cant build and if its too advanced it will frighten a lot off .. i think what we have now is good for basic
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/helpless Helpless] 
| this isn't about what random user may want to do a handful of times in their SL life.... it's about what a majority needs most of the time... if something falls outside of that, then there's still the "advanced (=current)" way of doing it anyway
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| I think it may be a good idea to start compiling some user stories ourselves here!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| the basic mode is about NOT building
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| if you build, you're already not basic
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| So why are we talking about a basic mode?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:59 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| for consumers
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/octaviajane.farquart OctaviaJane Farquart] 
| im talking about givng people the opportunity too who havent before .. and if you hide all build tools then they wont attempt it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/helpless Helpless] 
| to edit an attachment, to move furniture, basic things
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| I think it'll just unnecessarily confuse people
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| because its actually harder to get right than an advanced mode
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| people who know nothing about building and don't want to know
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| teh advanced tools are pretty straightforward to cook up and were all skilled enough to knwo what we want in a tool chest
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| like the sex starved 14 year olds ... * lol*
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/drongle.mcmahon Drongle McMahon] 
| What happened to the official viewer basic mode? Is it still there?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/helpless Helpless] 
| it died a while back
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 16:00 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| it's gone Drongle
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| no, it was deemed a bad idea and killed off
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/octaviajane.farquart OctaviaJane Farquart] 
| really there are people who dont want to rez a prim out of curiosity and see what it does?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| ok, what about a "build mode" button? click it, and you can turn it on, and all of the build buttons would appear. click it again to hide them, and go back into basic mode
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/drongle.mcmahon Drongle McMahon] 
| Is there a message in that?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| similar to how, you have to turn on the advanced & develop menus
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/inara.pey Inara Pey] 
| Basic mode was never intended to survive.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| I forget the stat, but something like the majority of SL residents will never rez a plywood cube on purpose
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kaz.nayar Kaz Nayar] 
| if there was an option in preferences to enable the build menu.. they can be curious if they want.. quit easily
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| they are not automatically visible when you first install a viewer, so why should the build tools be?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 16:01 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/octaviajane.farquart OctaviaJane Farquart] 
| thats a big 'if'
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kaz.nayar Kaz Nayar] 
| ^
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| sl ...... already HAS a basic mode
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| most consumers I run into want the following basic functionality:
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| its call " dont press build"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| 1) place a couch
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| 2) position something on their avatar
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 16:02 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| and occasionally:
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| 3) change the color of something
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kaz.nayar Kaz Nayar] 
| well then basic should be redefined
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| i think movement, tint and resize are used by most. but the more detailed bits dont belong on a non-builder's viewer
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| 3* is more often - change the colour of something when it doesnt have a built in menu
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| they want something done, and try to do it, and break something
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| then it becomes the designer's fault
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 16:03 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/octaviajane.farquart OctaviaJane Farquart] 
| then dont make it mod to start with
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kaz.nayar Kaz Nayar] 
| and yes, that sounds like a really good basic, Greenzian lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| then tinting and resize would be pointless
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| just give em a move button
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| if they want to change the colour
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| or size
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| then they are on step ONE of building
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/octaviajane.farquart OctaviaJane Farquart] 
| exactly
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| move my thing, move my cam to see my thing, all done. omg put it back
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| I would see a basic mode as a padded cell kind of deal; if you need to do any of the following, then basic is for you and you won't obliterate that fancy no-copy thing you just bought in the process! otherwise, use advanced I suppose
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 16:04 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| its impossible to give one and take another in sl
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| either give them the tools, or dont
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| give EVERYONE the tolls to create , as Sl is a place that the users make the content
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| give them basic tools and then expose a way to get the advanced. that extra step
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| if you dumb it down
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| then hell yeah .. its the sims
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/octaviajane.farquart OctaviaJane Farquart] 
| here here Braydon
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| Anyway, I thought the point of these meetings was to improve the content creation tools, not discuss basic mode for people who will never use it?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| ok look simple buttons .. oh wow,, thats complicated, back away
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 16:05 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| and i would rather cut my knob off with a spoon than go and play sims with 8 year olds
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| everyone HAS the tools. but a good chunk of them dont know what they do, THAT is the problem
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| "oops, i returned everyones things, because i wanted to return this box"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| That is their problem, I would argue
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| the problem as faced now is that the existing tool set is cramped, fractured over several viewers and in some cases not fit for purpose
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| learn how to use the UI
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| things that we know how to use, are a completely different language to others
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| when was the last time anyone here build on the stock LL viewer
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/octaviajane.farquart OctaviaJane Farquart] 
| and if you take them away they will never give it a go or try or even realise that there is an option to have a go .. wow rez a prim ... shit .. i can do stuff witht hat too
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 16:06 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/drongle.mcmahon Drongle McMahon] 
| yesterday
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| i use it for more accurate mesh uploads. thats it..lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| with where Trinity's idea is going, it seems like we're covering a single facet of the general idea here
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| every day
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| The basic build tools should be a gateway towards actual building.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| " i cant get my cock to fit ................. and by the way can i borrow 100L till tommorow"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| im not saying take them away, im saying hide them
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| they ARE hidden .... with a build button
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 16:07 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| not like that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| no they arent
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| right cick, edit
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| oh shit, build tools
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| what I am suggesting is, hide the unnecessary buttons, but have the ability to turn ON the options
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| so ... you are saying ... that because they are able to edit ... then they need to be mummied
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/drongle.mcmahon Drongle McMahon] 
| ...I wonder what they do....
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| but the build button
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| and protected from creativity
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| OOOOOHHHH BAAAD CREATIVITY!!!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/octaviajane.farquart OctaviaJane Farquart] 
| talk about closed shop
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kaz.nayar Kaz Nayar] 
| not sure how brainstorming became an argument here
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| i mean something that hides build, and script info, and all the stuff builders use
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 16:08 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| click once, you see the build stuff. click again, it goes away
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| Hi! I'm a simple user. I totally need to know what the description of an object is when I go to edit my L$200 hair.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| it will be plenty obvious you can build andc create in SL - the goal is about tools for the task at hane
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/isla.gealach-nayar Isla Gealach-Nayar] 
| something like this little box... http://cl.ly/image/3R2M241U132M
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| which already exists.... until you choose to hit that arrow
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| now, who thinks a regular user needs to know the description of their hair?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| The coolest part about SL is that you can edit things, stuff is not just a static model like in other things.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 16:09 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| dont eve need to rename it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| SL has thrived on user content. believe me, i have been here since 04, i KNOW how importent user content is. but not everyone builds, so they dont NEED the build stuff to be in all of their menus
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| for that matter, who thinks every user needs to know what the inventory of their recently bought pair of shoes is?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/octaviajane.farquart OctaviaJane Farquart] 
| soo nobody ever learnt from making those mistakes when they were noobs?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| i dont, geenz
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| if they didnt make it, they shouldnt be able to access the innards
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 16:10 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| unless its a packed box
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| police state ...... charming
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| I spent money, I bought some hair, somehow it got broken.. fuck SL
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| which we have the "Open..." option for
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/octaviajane.farquart OctaviaJane Farquart] 
| seriously
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| yup, exactly
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/drongle.mcmahon Drongle McMahon] 
| I need to know how many triangles it has.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| when you buy gear in an MMORPG, you can take it to an NPC to tint it.....why do people here need to do more than that?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| then your desires as a power user are about as far removed from a consumers as its possible to get
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 16:11 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| knowing something's render cost could be a good idea for consumers
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/vaalith.jinn Vaalith Jinn] 
| i'm not sure why we're talking about hiding tools from people. if someone clicks 'edit', it's quite likely they're trying to edit. if someone clicks the 'build' button, i would assume they're trying to build. and speaking of object inventory - i'd really like to know if an object i just bought contains a whole lot of unnecessary scripts. and it would be -good- if regular users were exposed to that, and were aware that some content creators still put too many scripts in their items.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/motor.loon Motor Loon] 
| kinda agree with vaalith... we DO have then "Open" function in the menu too for those that just wants to see whats inside the box they bought
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 16:12 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/octaviajane.farquart OctaviaJane Farquart] 
| soo that is what always made sl special isnt it ..
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/helpless Helpless] 
| if you want content creators to use less scripts, then punish content creators for using too many scripts... smacking consumers around with it isn't useful because they don't understand and do not care
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| aka, the "turn off scripts" button. not menu dropdown, but an exposed button
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| Vaalith - Unnecassaey scriupts - come on - you cant even see what is in a script how can you possible determine what is necassary or not beyond guesswork based in filenames - how on earth do you expect that to mean ANYTHING to a non technical user
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| I want others to learn how to build ... THAT is why i do tutorials ... if i wanted people to pay me to fix the shit they broke .... i would be a plumber
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/vaalith.jinn Vaalith Jinn] 
| Trinity, here's a fact of life for you: nearly everything that ever needs to be done with a script, can be done with one script per whole object.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 16:13 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| I am well aware
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| Its the "Build" button on the LL viewer not part of default toolbar setup?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| pretty soon we'll be wrapping up the meeting, so let's do this
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/vaalith.jinn Vaalith Jinn] 
| so yes, there are still many items being sold with a lot of very unnecessary scripts and users must be aware of it.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| seriously. no. users should never even care
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| im not talking about a build button to open/close the build menu. im talking about a button to change the viewer between build mode and basic mode
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| it would change what is shown in the drop down menus
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 16:14 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| So should we design a whole UI based on a bunch of legacy content?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| no ....
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| right now from the looks of it, there's a lot of ideas flying about regarding why have a basic mode, why should the basic mode conform around these needs, why not have this instead of this, and so on
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| if people just want to walk, buy, chat, or whatever, and not build, why do they need build options in the dropdowns?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| basically what we need is user stories
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| let um rott lookin like homer simpson
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| right Trinity, just what I was about to get to
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 16:15 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| so let's focus on "as a Builder, I want to..." and "as a Resident, I want to..." kind of user stories relevant to the build UI
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| user stories that cover both technical high skill activites and consumer tasks
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 16:16 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| we have two distinct categories here; and going forward, we can come up with ideas to satisfy these user stories instead of tossing every discussion into one pot here and hoping for the best
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| does that sound good to everyone?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/motor.loon Motor Loon] 
| nods
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 16:17 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/drongle.mcmahon Drongle McMahon] 
| I'm not convinced it's two categories. I think thetre is a continuum of technical skill and interest.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| then feel free to go remake the UI and let us know when you come up with something
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 16:18 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| well, if we can it may be a good idea to design the UI to "lead" users into things, instead of pushing it up in their face
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/drongle.mcmahon Drongle McMahon] 
| However, that doesn't argue against the two menu state options.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 16:19 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| now, we're a couple of minutes over our time limit, so lets go ahead and wrap up here
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| let's focus on user stories first here, then design something to satisfy those user stories
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 16:20 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| I dont want to come over as blunt, but at the end of the day there are a very very small number of people who will have to put a lot of work in to make anything actually happen. what we want to do is make sure all the bases are covered before even starting something of this size
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| this gives more context to conversation, this gives more motivation to whatever designs that are produced, and it helps keep things organized, alright everyone?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| its like, why i do texture change options on my shoes...why overload your inventory with 12 pairs of the same shoes in different colors, when you can just have one pair and a HUD? why have unnecessary menu buttons you may never use? the SL interface is intimidating for a new person, until they get used to it. why force them to navigate through overloaded menus if they never intend to build? making it hidden until they want to try building, seems like a good idea to me
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| less clutter
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 16:21 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| there are clearly two different sides to building, so please please please. user stories
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| edit/build kinda puts that into force anyway
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| There is a difference between smart UI design and childprooding :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 16:22 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| proofing*
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| floor typing = bad
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| If you're a phoenix user you're not allowed to talk about UI design :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| good point Kadah, and on that note we'll end today's meeting
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| hey, im a mom. im all for childproofing sl
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| :|
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| Ok here's the thing. None of us are basic users anymore. We don't really know what "Basic mode" people would want to have. So why don't we ask them to write their own user stories??
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/octaviajane.farquart OctaviaJane Farquart] 
| good lawd
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 16:23 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| I'm out of here. bye
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/isla.gealach-nayar Isla Gealach-Nayar] 
| i think that's a brilliant idea
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/octaviajane.farquart OctaviaJane Farquart] 
| even shildren have to grow up
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| that a point i do agree on .. NON of us here ... can know what a basic user would want
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/octaviajane.farquart OctaviaJane Farquart] 
| and on that note im out
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| thanks ..it was informative
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| :/
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oriana.kuhr Oriana Kuhr] 
| all i am saying, is why make it overwhelming?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 16:24 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| too much info at once, is never good
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| hiding what isnt used, but leaving it accessable, is good
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| its not that hard to understand
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| im not talking about taking anything away, except the clutter
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenzian.scientist Geenzian Scientist] 
| we could debate the issue all day
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| but let's continue this next week shall we?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 16:25 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| thanks to everyone who came out!
|}

Content Creation Improvement Informal User Group/Archive

2012-08-21T23:32:39Z

Geenz Spad:

[[Content Creation Improvement Informal User Group/Archive/July 3rd, 2012 Meeting|July 3rd, 2012 Meeting]]

[[Content Creation Improvement Informal User Group/Archive/July 10th, 2012 Meeting|July 10th, 2012 Meeting]]

[[Content Creation Improvement Informal User Group/Archive/July 17th, 2012 Meeting|July 17th, 2012 Meeting]]

[[Content Creation Improvement Informal User Group/Archive/July 24th, 2012 Meeting|July 24th, 2012 Meeting]]

[[Content Creation Improvement Informal User Group/Archive/July 31st, 2012 Meeting|July 31st, 2012 Meeting]]

[[Content Creation Improvement Informal User Group/Archive/August 7th, 2012 Meeting|August 7th, 2012 Meeting]]

[[Content Creation Improvement Informal User Group/Archive/August 14th, 2012 Meeting|August 14th, 2012 Meeting]]

[[Content Creation Improvement Informal User Group/Archive/August 21st, 2012 Meeting|August 21st, 2012 Meeting]]

Content Creation/Mesh Import User Group

2012-08-20T19:37:13Z

Geenz Spad:

{{User Group Page
|purpose=
Come discuss any issues around content creation - its challenges, limitations in the tools, workarounds and successes. Land is provided next to the office build for rezzing example content.
Bug reports and feature requests should have JIRA ticket numbers if at all possible, as it makes it easier to collaborate on issues both internally and externally.

Priority will be given to topics that are posted in advance and are relevant to the goals of the office hour. Feel free to include relevant links to JIRA or wiki pages.

 
{{Navbox/Mesh|project}}
|date-time=
Mondays at Noon in Pacific time (SL standard time)

|location=
[http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Borrowdale/79/225/32 Borrowdale on AGNI]

|team=
Nyx Linden, Runitai Linden, and occasional other guest lindens. Please contact one of us if you are unsure if your topic is relevant or appropriate.
|agenda=
 

Please add topics below '''prior to 11:50 AM'''. Also, please put your SL name down so we can follow up if we have questions. Thanks!

Enter agenda items here (with name, please)
# Can we discuss the coming Materials System here? [[User:Nalates Urriah|Nalates Urriah]]
# Should we expect to upload material files? Or separate texture files for normals and spec? [[User:Aki Shichiroji|Aki Shichiroji]] 12:09, 20 August 2012 (PDT)
# Will the size, repeats, offsets and orientation of the proposed maps will (initially) br locked to those of the applied texture? [[User:Drongle McMahon|Drongle McMahon]]
# Will each map use up a material slot (of the eight)? [[User:Drongle McMahon|Drongle McMahon]]
# Rough guestimate on when we'll first be able to play with materials ourself? [[User:Motor Loon|Motor Loon]]
# Will the new materials respect existing ambient occlusion, shadows, etc.? [[User:Drongle McMahon|Drongle McMahon]]
# Same question as a month ago; about when (rough indication would be nice) will mesh deformer gets released and integrated to the official viewer? [[User:Beanster Potato|Beanster Potato]]
# non-materials question: Any news RE: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-12214 , https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-27954 ? [[User:Aki Shichiroji|Aki Shichiroji]] 12:32, 20 August 2012 (PDT)
# Any idea what priority the additional bones issue is? https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-29349 [[User:Geenz Spad|Geenz Spad]] 12:37, 20 August 2012 (PDT)
# your topic here! End with 3 or 4 ~ to add your name or name and date

|archive=
{{:Content_Creation,_Mesh_Import_User_Group/Archive}}
}}
[[Category:Mesh]]

Content Creation Improvement Informal User Group/Archive/August 14th, 2012 Meeting

2012-08-14T23:23:11Z

Geenz Spad: Created page with "{|style="border-collapse: collapse; border-style: none;" |- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;" | 15:06  | style="white-space:nowrap…"

{|style="border-collapse: collapse; border-style: none;"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:06 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| well get started, so any interesting things people want to bring up?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:07 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| JIRAs, ideas regarding content creation, etc...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| if not, we'll move on to the UI discussion
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:08 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| Nothing that isnt better suited to the pathfinding ug ㋡
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| haha
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:09 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| so last week, I believe we left off with Kadah and I discussing possible ways we could approach the building UI, and this week I believe Trinity has a few ideas to bring to the table on the subject
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:10 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| now for anyone who isn't aware, the build UI we currently have has gotten fairly cramped over the 9 years we've had it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| localizations actually break in some cases, and daring to add anything new to it can be a bit of a nightmare
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:12 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| so ideas and feedback on the issue are most certainly appreciated
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:13 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sachi.vixen sachi Vixen] 
| I don't know if this is particularly relevant so forgive me if it isn't but when the new viewers came in there were certain changes to the way things happen in appearance that made creation for people who make a lot of skins or clothing that way into a bit of a nightmare.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:14 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| More clicks to do things etc is there anyway that process can be simplified again?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| Yeah the build floater is 10 years of packing packing and squeezing and jamming more and more and more into that one floater, that was never really a great idea in the first place. if anyonehas tried to edit the XUI for that you will know exactly what I mean. I'm not really thinking about the UI for editing an avatar ir making a clothing layer which could certainly do with some love
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sachi.vixen sachi Vixen] 
| It's little things but I'm sure there are a lot of us who would appreciate those clicks being gone
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| sachi: we'll get to that if we have time, okay?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:15 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| if not today, then next week
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sachi.vixen sachi Vixen] 
| Thank you Geenz
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:16 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| There are basically two different use cases for content creation UI and I think it's time to separate them
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| the needs of a user who is moving a couch, or rezzing a car, or editing a hat are very different from the needs of the person making that item in the first place
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:17 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sachi.vixen sachi Vixen] 
| That's very true Trinity but the problem is often if you don't these things for hours, there often isn't an understanding of peoples needs.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:18 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| basically what we have been tossing back and forth between kitty and myself is breaking the tools into two parts. Something for the consumer thats easy, clean, simple and painless. and then something for the builder who wants all the bells and whistles
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sachi.vixen sachi Vixen] 
| Like the changes I mentioned, you can tell whoever did those has never stood in appearance for a few hours making skins.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| thats not true
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:19 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sachi.vixen sachi Vixen] 
| what isn't true?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:20 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| I'm assuming you're speaking amongst the people who designed the current appearance UI sachi?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sachi.vixen sachi Vixen] 
| yes Geenz, its just apparent with some changes to how you work that the people who made those changes have never spent time working in that way
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| they took the V1 UI designed to fill a need by an engineer and jammed it in a tall slim sidebar form factor, it. other stuff then got redesigned following guidelines .. to make a shirt you do a, b , c d and so on. It just happened that the method the v2 sidebar based UI was based off doesnt match how the few hardcore creators used those tools
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:22 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| which kind of comes back to breaking things down into consumer/casual and expert level tools.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/[noctis].mesh leather wingback chair (13p, 9 pe) whispers [noctis] MESH leather wingback chair (13p, 9 PE) whispers] 
|
(⇞PgUp or ⇟ PgDn ) change your pose. Touch for menu.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:23 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| no
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:24 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| it may be a good idea to break it down to "how simple do we make operation X"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| and if Oz is saying anything, I think he'll need to move closer :p
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| the simple edit tool set would be persistent between both
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:25 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sachi.vixen sachi Vixen] 
| Breaking it down might mean a much much simpler UI for new users and I think that would seriously help retention. I've seen a lot of newbies come and go over my years in Sl and I know many get frustrated by the complexity of SL at the beginning
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:26 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| so I'm guessing something like, simple edit tools to advanced properties (think for setting flexi params)?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| do I have the right idea here?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/[noctis].mesh leather wingback chair (13p, 9 pe) whispers [noctis] MESH leather wingback chair (13p, 9 PE) whispers] 
|
(⇞PgUp or ⇟ PgDn ) change your pose. Touch for menu.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:27 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| what would the expert/advanced tools entail?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| simple case, I want to move a chair in my home. I dont want to see a full on build floater. I want something very very minimal. say a single tool bar that folds up from the bottom of the screen
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:28 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| just enough to grab the item, move it on the XY and rotate it on the Z.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| the user has no need to see its name or description or properties or numbers or contents
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:29 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| so kinda like a toolbar?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| at most , yes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| well the idea does sound kinda interesting
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| simple obvious tools that might be more akin to a video game
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:30 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/nal Nal] 
| A right-click with a MOVE in the popup and then show handles on the object...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| so how about, say, applying a simple texture to an object?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| well, once you're texturing then you step up to expert
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| I dont want there to be any fuzzy middle ground
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/helpless Helpless] 
| drag-and-drop from inventory if you're doing it for a picture frame in someone's home :o
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:31 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/nal Nal] 
| Your getting into building, to do textures you have find or upload them, that seems like a big step up from simple controls
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| I think the line thats been drawn is a user / creator line
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| you're either using or making. one is no skill, the other requires all the same skills you need now
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:32 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| For code refactoring simplicity (since the viewer currently assumes only one instance of any form of build tools floater/panel/UI, we could do something where the same floater covers both usages by being expandable to show the rest of the "advanced" build tools. (Similar to this https://dl.dropbox.com/u/26299591/samples/build_floaters3.png)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sachi.vixen sachi Vixen] 
| I think that would be a very interesting direction to go in
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| I hate build tools in a flaoter. period
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| so, we're going more into a full blown "UI" than a floater, thus far the idea is pretty interesting
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| so what you're saying is you have your basic menu intended for users and then a sort of advanced menu for builders
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:33 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/helpless Helpless] 
| even the collapsed one there is horribly overcomplicated for anyone trying to move a couch or fit an attachment
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| I think for a basic menu that could even be too much
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:34 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| 11 tick boxes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| could then have a side bar for the full toolset
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| I would hate build tools not being a floater. Often I find that I don't need it on screen for a lot of building and minimize it so I'm just in "build mode". Docked panels or toolbars would only cause my workspace to be permanently smaller.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| from the sounds of it, it's not really a "basic menu", more like a full blown UI of basic functionality that persists across both user level things and expert level operations, am I correct Trinity?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:35 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| yes. you have no editing at all. the basic toolset and then basic + advanced
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:36 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| Kadah: is there any ways you could think of that the impact you've mentioned could be mitigated using Trinity's idea?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| Well, what would a basic "move my furniture" UI actually need for a UI? Doesn't all the overlayed movement controls on the obejct server all the basic move, rotate and scale functions without needing an UI?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:37 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| yes, but it requires keyboard shortcuts
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| basic user - point and click friendly
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| What is Trinity's? I missed most of it.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:38 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| 2 modes for editing. basic and basic + advanced. basic is tailored for consumers specifically. very simple editing tools that are more video game in design than 3D modelling
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:39 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| (Also, I'm partly distracted atm writing a GUI frontend app for semi-automated disc duplication. :p)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| say a tool bar that folds up from the bottom of the screen, half an inch on screen tops
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:40 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| Define what "more video game in design than 3D modelling" means? I've seen many different ways that is done in video games.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:41 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| And most of the ones I've used use ONLY keyboard shortcuts for mode changing and an aim vector in 1st person viewer
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| point and click friendly, visual
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| I'm assuming that what Trinity's talking about is what amounts to a simple toolbar that has all of the basic functions someone needs to place something
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| exactly
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:42 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| "need to place something? well here's your position, rotation, and scale; now go nuts!"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| What would these basic functions be? So far it seems that its just mode changing
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| place a couch. I need to be able to see it, I need to be able to move it on the XY and rotate it on the Z. and that's the lot
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:43 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/helpless Helpless] 
| right now with the build floater, the most user-friendly pieces of the UI are useless because they represent the different tools rather than the different actions most users perform (move, rotate, resize)... instead those are text options amidst what is to most user gibberish and scary
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| (also, I apologize if I'm slightly less responsive; getting last weeks logs sorted out while I have a bit of time to do so)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| yeah. you should not be able to break your object using the basic tools
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:44 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| Break meaning no edit linked? Right
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| why would a consumer need to edit linked?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| well, how about we define what tools we should have in this basic toolset; position, rotation, and scale thus far, how about numerical inputs?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| Excatly
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:45 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| numerical inputs are probably to techie
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| I'd at least have numerical readout of the current position, which I think v3 has already on screen
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| should we keep those away? or should we devise some sort of simple way of doing this (such as Maya and Max's little numerical input fields)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sachi.vixen sachi Vixen] 
| Light, I think its important to have a simple light button with a lightbulb and some presets to introduce people to setting their own light in SL. It's shocking the number of people who still don't understand how
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| the numbers get shown top of screen, that's more information than you need
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| define setting your own light
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:46 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| "My face light isn't bright enough."
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sachi.vixen sachi Vixen] 
| Just simple front page access to light presets
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/helpless Helpless] 
| and for resizing I would add a slider for size as well... one reason resize scripts still get put into stuff is because it's just easier to understand +5%% than the precision dragging of the resize handle
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:47 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sachi.vixen sachi Vixen] 
| Its a bit obscure for new users to change default light atm, a simple button and a preset drop down would be a great intro
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| A resize slider is a bit of a technical challenge
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| hm
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:48 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| Since minimum size isn't obvious.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| there may be a way that we can sort that one out
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| And with the 64m max, the default slider scale would be pretty wild
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:49 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| bounding box and corner handles are probably more then enough
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| defaults to stretch all sides
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| and keeps the bottom of the bounding box Z pos fixed
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/helpless Helpless] 
| problem with those handles is that if you get near the edge of the screen, the camera rotates and your resize flies into extremes :p
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| so when I drag rezise my couch, I dont end up with a floaty couch
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:50 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/helpless Helpless] 
| same with the position arrows for that matter :o
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| If you slider control is, say, 250px wide, 1px of movement could be over a quarter meter change.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| combination 3D UI for move XY and rot Z - does not allow any other rotation or movement would be nice too
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:51 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| heh, where this is going, let's throw the position/scale/rotation gizmos in with this little redesign while we're at it :p
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| (kidding of course, but who knows!)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| 3d gizmos are great
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| personally I love how they went about it in the newer versions of the Unreal Editor
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:52 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| position, scale, and rotation all in one (or not if you don't want it)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| how do you switch between them in unreal editor?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| crud .. cant rez here
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| when you say theyre all in one
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| wouldn't it be an idea if you could rez at a CC UG :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:53 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| Oz, can you enable rezzing temporarily?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| I think if there is going to be a revamp in the move control, can there be something to prevent objects from "pinging off"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:54 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oz.linden Oz Linden] 
| done
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| what is "pinging off" ?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| thats a couch or similar furniture item .. imagination required
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:55 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| its happend a few times before, you move something with the gizmo and all of a sudden it "pings" off into the distance
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/helpless Helpless] 
| that's because you got too close to the edge of the screen :o
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| yeah
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| ah, I appear to be mistaken! the object gizmo in UDK hasn't changed much, but I did find something handy for rotation: http://udk.com/elements/img/clip_image008_0003.jpg
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:56 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/nal Nal] 
| I think 'pinging off' is when moving something toward the end of the visible area near the end of move snap marks it rockets away.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| yeah
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| I know why it happens
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:57 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| a tool like that as a really obvious first choice
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| What determins the corners to touch?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:58 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| move it, drag resize and rotate. its also visually familar with the exiting tools
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| bounding box
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| Keep in mind that the BB on linksets with sculpts or mesh can be far larger than the apparent size of the object.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:59 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| the intent is a tool for domestic personal items
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| add in a button to position the camer automatically
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| Which often are poorly made sculpts or mesh :p
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 16:00 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| alright, well, I think this discussion is headed in an interesting direction
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 16:01 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| you cant factor in everything with a simple toolset, and well, it if means creators have to pay a bit more attention then it's no bad thing
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| Would the rotate ring be around the obejct?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 16:02 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| yeah
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| That could be an issue for large things like landscaping or buildings
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| as long as there is a button to move the cam to a position that you can see all the controls + a margin
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| Oblong objects would be odd as well
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| hm
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 16:03 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| Imagine having something around that size
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| And brb
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| well, we could go on for hours on this, but how about we form a little working group here if no one's opposed to that?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| yeah, well its not like 3D widgets are hard to mock up
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 16:06 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| the reason for a having a working group would mostly be to discuss and work on this beyond the constraints that we have for the meeting we have every week, this way we can use the meetings more to present what work's been done during the rest of the week
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| what do you think Trinity?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 16:07 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| that would be great, especially if there was somewhere we can leave the results out
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 16:08 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| well, there is the sandbox in Hippo Hollow
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| not unless someone can come up with a better place
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| that works
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| alright
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 16:09 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| sachi: would you like to discuss the appearance editing issues you have now, or would you rather bring it up next week when we'll have more time?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| I've got a permanent build platform at my sim :p
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 16:10 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sachi.vixen sachi Vixen] 
| I can give you a quick idea if you think its helpful
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| we have 5 minutes left, so it's up to you
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| Is someone talking in voice?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| and I'm fine with where ever Kadah, discuss it with Trinity and Kitty as well though
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 16:11 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| prefer a public place and hippo seems ideal
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sachi.vixen sachi Vixen] 
| Basically when you are amking something like skin yu need to change a lot of head textures, the body usually stays the same. In the old 1.23 you could go into appearance, stay there, change the head, save, change the head, save.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| Hippo Hallow is likely better, fewer random body parts laying around there :p
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| alrighty then
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 16:12 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| I suppose that makes Oz the guy to talk to if you're not a part of the open source contributor's group already
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sachi.vixen sachi Vixen] 
| Now every time you save you are thrown out of the window, you have to reopen, reopen the texture box and start again. I can't tell you how annoying this is then you have to do 48 heads and I know a lot of designers of texture clothing also find this not a fun new feature.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| We do get carpal tunnel injuries as it is fromt his kind of work and the extra clicking is just unfortunate.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 16:13 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| so would I be correct in assuming that you'd like to have the ability to keep the skin and clothing editors open after saving something?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| is that the basic gist of it?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| maybe cliking some kind of preview button perhaps?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| which updates the texture
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sachi.vixen sachi Vixen] 
| oh yes please Geenz
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| alright, something to look into
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sachi.vixen sachi Vixen] 
| want to keep it all open, save, do another one and so on
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 16:14 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| Doesnt it already have that, but its not labeled clearly?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oz.linden Oz Linden] 
| separate Save & Close ?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sachi.vixen sachi Vixen] 
| It used to be that way and its just not a happy change
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/trinity.dejavu Trinity Dejavu] 
| well at it's simplest thats just a button if you can write up *exactly* what you want to see different
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| Save and not close.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| a separate button maybe Oz?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| I haven't actually used V3 to edit appearance or a skin ever.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 16:15 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sachi.vixen sachi Vixen] 
| It used to be that using save as worked, but I find this is no longer the case int he newer viewers
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oz.linden Oz Linden] 
| maybe... would have to look at the specific screens involved
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| alright then
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| well, on that note, how about we wrap up?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sachi.vixen sachi Vixen] 
| Thanks
[16:15] KadahKadah has not heard any prase for the v2/3 appearance UI.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| Lottas complaints though.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 16:16 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| thanks everyone for coming out today, seems like we got some stuff done, which is great!
|}

Content Creation Improvement Informal User Group/Archive

2012-08-14T22:58:52Z

Geenz Spad:

Content Creation Improvement Informal User Group/Archive/August 7th, 2012 Meeting

2012-08-14T22:58:23Z

{|style="border-collapse: collapse; border-style: none;"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:03 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| on that note, I think we'll be relabeling the first bit of the meeting as open discussion, since no one ever seems to really have any content creation related JIRAs to bring up
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/[noctis].mesh leather wingback chair (13p, 9 pe) whispers [noctis] MESH leather wingback chair (13p, 9 PE) whispers] 
|
(⇞PgUp or ⇟ PgDn ) change your pose. Touch for menu.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| hey Siddean, we'll start at around 3:10, sound good?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| Hey Siddean :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| morning
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| Yep sounds good
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| alright then
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:04 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| so how has everyone been?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| sweet
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/nalates.urriah Nalates Urriah] 
| Typhaon, your can read Qarl's answers to your questions in my summaries of Metareality podcasts. Look in Gen News http://blog.nalates.net/category/second-life/general-news/
[15:04] Kadah CobaKadah Coba is eating lunch
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| cheers Nal
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| lunch at 3PM? :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/nalates.urriah Nalates Urriah] 
| :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| or so I'm assuming it's 3PM your time; pretty sure that's accurate
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah.coba Kadah Coba] 
| inorite?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:05 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/maxwell.graf Maxwell Graf] 
| hunger knows no clock for the virtual resident, nor sleep!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad whispers Geenz Spad whispers] 
| anyone had any further thoughts about the UI discussion?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/nalates.urriah Nalates Urriah] 
| 3:05 PM SLT
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| and silly whisper
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| anyone had any further thoughts about the UI discussion?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sahkolihaa.contepomi Sahkolihaa Contepomi] 
| 11:06PM for me.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| omg it's Kadah.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah.coba Kadah Coba] 
| Meant to go earlier, but was busy.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| that's the story of my life now days :p
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:06 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| anyone had any interesting ideas?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:07 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/nalates.urriah Nalates Urriah] 
| Toy has VLM
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| ah, I noticed that on your blog
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah.coba Kadah Coba] 
| ?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/nalates.urriah Nalates Urriah] 
| It's one I like
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| virtual land marks
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:08 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah.coba Kadah Coba] 
| Oh, that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| here's the link to Nal's post on it: http://blog.nalates.net/2012/08/04/virtual-landmarks/
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| I think it's an interesting idea
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/nalates.urriah Nalates Urriah] 
| Thx Geenz
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah.coba Kadah Coba] 
| Too bad all the Lindens that were planning something similar over a year ago are all gone.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| eh, who knows, maybe something can come of it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:09 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| that would be cool if you could get Qarl to come to one of these meetings
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| weirder things are happening right now
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| Qarl tends to be pretty busy, I had extended an invitation to him, but my guess right now is he's pretty busy
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sahkolihaa.contepomi Sahkolihaa Contepomi] 
| Pathfinding having gone grid-wide today is one thing.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| yeah thats understandable
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| anyways, let's get started
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:10 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| so, let's open up some general discussion here
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| this is people's chance to bring up any problems or ideas they have with regards to improving the state of content creation
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:11 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| anything? :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| if there's nothing to bring up, then we'll move on to the UI discussion
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:12 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| I got nothing to add cos I'm still half asleep
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| hah
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:13 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| so I did ask Oz yesterday about how well any build floater stuff would be received by LL, and that discussion has led me to believe that we need to produce some mockups
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| aaaand looks like Nal crashed
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| yep
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/slink.update dispensor jolie pied barefeet medium Slink Update Dispensor Jolie Pied Barefeet Medium] 
| kylieangel Resident attempted collection but was not on the list.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:14 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah.coba Kadah Coba] 
| Oh lol, mockups.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/maxwell.graf Maxwell Graf] 
| what would that entail?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| so anyways, knowing how that discussion went, it'd be a good idea to begin sorting out how that should be handled
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| he did chuckle about the dockable UI idea!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:15 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah.coba Kadah Coba] 
| Mockups would be a good idea since the product team is likely to reject anything anyway.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| did comment about how people like the sidebar *after* it was removed all of a sudden :p
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| or at least the idea of the sidebar
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| well, from my understanding this isn't entirely a product team decision
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah.coba Kadah Coba] 
| Only some said that.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:16 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| a portion of it has to do with if their UI guy agrees with the design decisions with it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| what this guy's part is in the rest of the viewer UI is, I have no idea; but making mockups for various ideas will only help us
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/maxwell.graf Maxwell Graf] 
| what would a mockup be? just an image? a non-functional floater in the UI? just an image of a hud?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| I imagine all of those would be acceptable Maxwell
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:17 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/maxwell.graf Maxwell Graf] 
| cools. you have mine then. :)|
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| but if I had to pick one, go for static images
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah.coba Kadah Coba] 
| The product team rejected every tiny change to the tools floater that I've put forth, including ones that I got from LL to do. lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| story board it as well; that always makes sense to those UI designer types
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/from.twiggy & 'kota of whippet & buck <3 From Twiggy & 'Kota of Whippet & Buck <3] 
| You're receiving this because you're a friend, a blogger or someone rad If you'd like us to stop sending you things let us know
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| I think that us leaving the existing build floater alone is going to help here Kadah
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| and just having an "advanced" build UI, whatever that UI way be
[15:18] From Twiggy & 'Kota of Whippet & Buck <3 owned by Twiggy Whippet gave you 'Whippet & Buck - Alice Bow Mini Skirt for VINTAGE FAIR' ( Imogen (115,208,1024) ).
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:18 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/maxwell.graf Maxwell Graf] 
| ah, that nixes my mockups then.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| the idea for the whole pallet thing was kinda cool Max, I liked that part; but we need to find a better way that preserves the existing build floater
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:19 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/maxwell.graf Maxwell Graf] 
| yus
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah.coba Kadah Coba] 
| I'm just saying I hope they are more receptive now, but I wouldn't spend a lot of time making the actual changes to the viewer, just the mockups since they are likely to either go "nope", "change everything", or say nothing at all. :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| making that floater resizable isn't off the table I'm told, if such a thing could be possible
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:20 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah.coba Kadah Coba] 
| Resizable would take a lot of work
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| eh, my experience dating back to about February on a particular project that Oz has brought up at least once now that no one seems to have noticed tells me they're a bit more receptive now days
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah.coba Kadah Coba] 
| And there is still the question of why resizable? Most of the controls have no height avantage
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| mostly just for the localizations
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| try using the viewer in german :p
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:21 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| then take a look at the build floater
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah.coba Kadah Coba] 
| Thats horizontal issues
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| And English has some of those same problems at times :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| The v2/3 tabs are awful space hogs.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:22 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| on top of that, resizable could help mitigate some of the existing problems involving how cramped the floater is; pathfinding alone made the first tab of the build floater pretty cramped even though it technically only added a couple of options
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah.coba Kadah Coba] 
| I saw a screen shot of how that looks. Honestly I think that and the cost info should all be in one generic text field in one place.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:23 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| though given the complexity to the build floater's code, maybe we could figure something else out to fix existing problems
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| that'd be easier to implement, and fix most existing problems before we move on to a better UI
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/maxwell.graf Maxwell Graf] 
| i still relish the idea of being able to pull windows out of the client window, like onto another monitor. Is that ever something that would be possible?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| also, just so everyone knows, I *may* be leaving around 10 till for another meeting
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| and that'd be a bit of a tircky thing to do
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:24 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| there's ways to do it yeah
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| but it's more a matter of where those changes will need to go and how much of an overhaul we're talking about in the UI system and OS frameworks
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:25 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| there's already one major overhaul that needs to happen very soon on the Mac side of things for the latter
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah.coba Kadah Coba] 
| The tools floater code uses a lot of legacy style code, and all of it is a mess.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| so I've noticed!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:26 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah.coba Kadah Coba] 
| And the XUI is several folds more messy.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| as is most of the viewer's XUI
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| then again
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| XUI is a fickle thing
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah.coba Kadah Coba] 
| It makes use of lots of overlapping controls with static code to show/hide them as needed.... >.>
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:27 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| well, how about we just don't touch the existing build floater
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| we'll call that our "basic" mode
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah.coba Kadah Coba] 
| Its far from basic.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| this is true! however it "works" as far as most people are concerned, and messing with it directly will probably cause more ire than it will praise
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:28 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah.coba Kadah Coba] 
| Might be easier to make an all new one along side it that eventually replaces it, but I think there is a lot of other viewer code that references a static global instance of the tools floater
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| so any problems we fix there may as well be solely targeted at things like how terrible does localization XYZ look
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| oh god
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| that's going to be a bit of a mess if true
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:29 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah.coba Kadah Coba] 
| I think its gToolsFloter, or something
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| :/
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| Like I said, lots of bad legacy code :c
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| well, let's go at it from this approach: Typhaon was nice enough to put together a list of things discussed at the last meeting, so let's expand upon that and try and put together some mockups
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:32 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah.coba Kadah Coba] 
| I'm not sure was brought up before, the v3 one is larger than v1 and despite this it has far more localization issues. But this is generally a problem everywhere in the viewer since 2.0, the larger controls fit less text. :<
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| yeah, you mentioned :p
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:33 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| so, who wants to volunteer for mockup duty?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| I'm guessing no one :p
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:34 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah.coba Kadah Coba] 
| You do it. If I do it, it will only be what I want and I could/would make it that way for myself anyway. :p
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| hah
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:35 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/maxwell.graf Maxwell Graf] 
| Well, i would consider doing one for the ideas I had, but if they are going to be in a completely separate floater or palette, then it seems almost like it would just be re-creating a texture organizer, which there are already plenty of.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:36 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah.coba Kadah Coba] 
| Plus, I haven't yet figured out how to fix the minimum height issues with combobox controls.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/maxwell.graf Maxwell Graf] 
| though less laggy if part of the UI, I reckon.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:37 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| hm
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:38 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| well, we need to know what groupings of existing tools we should have in a new UI
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| and how that should be organized
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:39 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah.coba Kadah Coba] 
| The general order should be kept, eg don't swap pos and scale around :p
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:41 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| well yeah :p
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:42 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah.coba Kadah Coba] 
| What major issues are we trying to solve with it in general?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:47 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| well, imagine adding something like another texture picker to the build floater
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| this is one of those "if we got X big feature here, how would we handle this" sorts of deals
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:48 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| say we got morph targets for static objects later on, allowing people to customize how a static object looks; how would we expose those parameters
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah.coba Kadah Coba] 
| Well what tab would it be going on? Some of them are pretty empty, others are jam packed.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:49 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| presumably texture for the extra texture picker
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| and for morph params, I'd assume either object or features
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah.coba Kadah Coba] 
| Those would likely be new tabs I'd imagine, which would cause it to scroll on every lang (if its not still like that for English now)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:50 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| three tabs that are bit of a horror story in terms of the params we have already
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| and adding another tab would be problematic I imagine
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah.coba Kadah Coba] 
| It would be nice if the tab container control supported multiple rows of tabs.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:51 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| heh
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| I"m probably going to have to start wrapping up here in a few minutes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah.coba Kadah Coba] 
| It would solve the localization issue.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| Siddean? do you mind grabbing today's logs, and sending me a notecard of them?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| Yep no worries
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:52 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| anyways
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:53 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| I'll begin work on some mockups, and since I'm sure there's people here who would like to stay close to the progress of this project, who would like to volunteer as far as setting up a little working group?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:54 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| Maxwell? Typhaon? Kadah? anyone?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:55 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| it could be tied in with the current group?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah.coba Kadah Coba] 
| Group?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| Like an SL group?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| Those don't even work properly >_>
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| yeah Im not 100%% sure what you mean
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| do you mean an SLone?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:56 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| a working group in this case is basically a group of people who work on things like specifications, implementations, debating functionality, and so on
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| though we won't be doing an implementation until we have something we can get LL to agree to :p
now, you don't have to necessarily be tech minded
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:57 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| really, just providing feedback would be great
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| and since this is a pretty big subject, any amount of feedback will be valuable
which by the way! speaking of feedback, the morph targets proposal is in need of some
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:58 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah.coba Kadah Coba] 
| Can knock something together for next week
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| yep
so let's figure some things out, and I'll continue talking to some people at LL about the matter; hopefully we can get some stuff done here
anyways, gonna have to end the meeting here I'm afraid (or at least my part of it, I'll let Siddean decide if she wants to continue the meeting)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 16:00 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah.coba Kadah Coba] 
| If we come up with something good and LL rejects it, Plan 2 could be get all the TPVs to adopt it :p
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 16:01 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| this is true :P but I will give one hit as to why this would be good; there's a new feature that *should* be out by year's end that would benefit greatly from some extra space in the build UI
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| hint*
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| I don't have anything further to add today
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 16:02 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| anyways, I'm out of here; thanks everyone for comming!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah.coba Kadah Coba] 
| Seeyas
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| thanks Geenz :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| thanks!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/maxwell.graf Maxwell Graf] 
| must off to RL as well, ciao all.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| ...HOLA!!...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| I think if no one has anything else they want to discuss - since I'm not a technical type like Geenz is, we'll wrap it for now
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 16:03 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| ok cool
[16:03] Sahkolihaa ContepomiSahkolihaa Contepomi will be going to bed soon.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/maxwell.graf Maxwell Graf] 
| thanks Geenz and Siddean.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sachi.vixen sachi Vixen] 
| Thank you!
|}

Content Creation Improvement Informal User Group/Archive

2012-08-14T22:40:38Z

Geenz Spad:

Morph Target Community Proposal

2012-08-04T19:03:49Z

Geenz Spad:

This page is to contain the overall community proposal for "Morph Targets".

Please do not add to this page without authorization from a co-chair or a co-chair's assistant from the Content Creation Improvement User Group first.

Please discuss any relevant changes in the discussion tab of this page.
==What is a Morph Target?==
A morph target, also known as a blend shape, or a shape key in some 3D applications, is a special kind of "vertex map" containing the positions of vertices in relation to their original position on a mesh. They are relatively easy to work with, only requiring the content creator to "sculpt" or otherwise move the vertices on their meshes to the positions they'd like for a morph target.

Most 3D applications support authoring morph targets, such as Luxology Modo, Autodesk 3ds Max, Autodesk Maya, and Blender. The Collada file format also supports morph targets.
===What are they used for?===
Most modern video games use morph targets for complex animations that would otherwise be hard to accomplish with skeletal animation, such as facial animation, and even things like character customization. The viewer its self actually uses morph targets to enable avatar customization already.
===Why do we need them?===
A a small list of examples of what they could be used for in the context of Second Life include:
* Complex facial animations on rigged meshes
* Additional ways for a user to customize the appearance of their avatar
* Animating the surface of a prim without the need to use a custom skeleton
* Fine grained control for content creators over how their clothing and avatars deform
There's a lot that can be achieved with morph targets, and this is just a small list of things that can be accomplished

==Caveats of Existing Techniques==
Existing techniques, such as RedPoly's proposed cBones technique and Qarl Fizz's Mesh Deformer, have their own disadvantages that morph targets are intended to either mitigate, or solve completely.

"cBones" as they're called, have the caveat of requiring content creators to rig many more bones than what would otherwise be necessary for simply animating a rigged mesh. It extends the workflow of rigging a mesh substantially into taking several hours of work; sometimes with a significant amount of trial and error. On top of that, a content creator sometimes is working "blind" with regards to what the final outcome will be in-world. This is not seen as an ideal workflow, as it increases the burden on content creators to produce this content. It does, however, provide more control over the deformation process, and is potentially faster than Qarl's mesh deformer.

Qarl's mesh deformer has the benefit, and caveat, of deforming a rigged mesh in accordance to the avatar's current shape automatically. The reason why some may see this as a caveat, is because this doesn't ensure correct deformation all the time. An example of where this may be undesirable can include custom mesh avatars, where the entire avatar mesh is replaced. A content creator may want to make their avatar's belly deform differently than the avatar mesh's belly does, or may want to have their avatar's breasts deform differently. This is a problem that morph targets could easily solve, by putting content creators in control of how a rigged mesh deforms. The mesh deformer also currently depends on the content creator making their content around a specific shape for it to work properly. Morph targets would lessen the need for this to some degree.
==Morph Target Advantages==
There are a few advantages of morph targets that existing solutions do not provide.
===Workflow===
Morph targets allow a content creator to literally "sculpt" how a morph target should appear, directly within their 3D application of choice. This gives them the ability to directly control over how a mesh "deforms" around the avatar, or in the context of rigged mesh replacement avatars, how an avatar "deforms". An ideal workflow would enable content creators to create a "morph map", a special vertex map in their 3D application of choice, and begin sculpting how that morph target should look in-world with respect to the associated avatar mesh morph target.

Each morph target currently should correspond to an existing morph target on the avatar mesh. Some examples include:
* Belly size
* Torso muscularity
* Saddle bags
* Body fat
* Breast size

There are already several pre-existing tools that can work with morph targets, and there's several ways morph targets can be tested. 3D modeling applications such as Autodesk Maya, Autodesk 3ds Max, and Luxology Modo all support morph targets out of the box, and the Collada file format also supports morph targets. One could effectively test different morph target combinations directly within their 3D modeling application of choice, or even existing game-engine toolsets. This would allow for content creators to rapidly iterate with their work, making adjustments on the fly with minimal slow down by cutting out the need to upload meshes to test their work.

Another workflow possibility is one could effectively "bake" the different potential morphs of a mesh, and simply tweak them until the content creator has the general effect they're looking for.
===Performance===
Morph targets do have some performance implications, however they're largely mitigable. Depending on the implementation, morph targets could have a very small performance impact that could be less than that of Qarl's deformer. This would mean more avatars could be in view using morph targets on more rigged meshes, enabling more people to experience the benefits of mesh clothing that fits properly.

Furthermore, morph targets could some day become an optimization to Qarl's deformer by precalculating the morph targets for a mesh on import. This would provide the potential performance benefits that morph targets provide, while still enabling an automatic solution for content creators to make use of.

==Morph Target Disadvantages==
Morph targets are not entirely a perfect solution. There are a few notable disadvantages relating to bandwidth usage, and potential workflow disadvantages relating to specific implementations.
===Bandwidth===
Morph targets require additional information to be encoded either within a mesh, or within a texture. This means that additional bandwidth will be required to transmit any mesh with morph targets.

The bandwidth cost could be mitigated by either determining what vertices have a "similar" position across different morph targets and simply reusing those values, by only including a partial vertex map for the morph target by excluding vertices that don't have unique positions in the vertex map, or by even using textures that can be loaded progressively.

The amount of bandwidth required to support morph targets will vary depending on the implementation approach taken.
===Workflow===
Although the workflow is largely more streamlined than that of rigging a mesh, it does require content creators learn how to efficiently create morph targets. This will vary largely upon the implementation approach taken to support morph targets on Second Life.
==Implementation Approaches==
There are a few possible implementation approaches. They each of their advantages and disadvantages associated with them.
===Vector Displacement Maps===
A vector displacement map encodes the positional information for a given vertex on a mesh. They can operate with relatively low overhead, and can be accessed through a vertex shader to displace an object's vertices. They can also be "baked" and transmitted to other viewers after a morph has been finalized. They're also capable of working with or without tessellation, and can operate reasonably well at lower resolutions.
====Advantages====
They would also benefit from progressive loading, and could effectively function as a regular texture on the asset backend. Being regular images effectively means they can also take advantage of image compression.

They can also be used on practically any prim face as well, potentially paving the path towards a general purpose solution in the future for assigning morph targets to standard primitives, and virtually any arbitrary mesh in-world furthering the overall customization of in-world content.
====Disadvantages====
The primary disadvantage to this technique, would be the ability to "copy" the content without the creator's permission by simply using the UUID to the VDM.
====Workflow====
The VDM workflow could be largely transparent to content creators, by creating them on mesh upload.
====Implementation====
A VDM would be applied to the surface of a mesh, or a prim, through a special set of parameters. Multiple VDMs should be supported for morph targets, each one having a parameter that controls the strength of the morph.

Either the viewer could create an interpolated VDM on the CPU which would then be uploaded to the GPU for displacing a surface's vertices, or it could be a CPU-bound process wherein the VDMs are interpolated and applied to a surface's vertices.

===Vertex Map Pruning===
Vertex map pruning could work by storing a "common" position look up table that's derived from the mesh's morph targets. Each common position could be determined by comparing vertex positions within a given threshold, and positions that are similar are averaged and added to the lookup table. This entire process would be completely transparent to the content creator, and would be determined at import.
====Advantages====
This would help mitigate the bandwidth concerns, while also mitigating content theft concerns as meshes are not currently trivial to "copybot".
====Disadvantages====
The downside would be that this requires extensions to the mesh format that could create problems for older viewers that wouldn't support the new morph target functionality. Fallback mechanisms may need to be devised to ensure backwards compatibility. Performance may also become an issue, but ways to mitigate it is to expose a single vertex map to the GPU that contains interpolated vertex positions, from which the GPU can apply within a vertex program better enabling hardware acceleration on a wider range of hardware.
====Workflow====
As with VDMs, vertex map pruning would be transparent to content creators since much of the process would be done at import (meaning content creators will not need to know how to "prune" a morph target's vertices; just that they will be pruned within a given threshold).
====Implementation====
There are a few ways this could potentially be implemented, but the simplest would be to have a look up table of common vertex positions derived from the mesh's morph maps, with each reference to this look up table being a 16-bit index that corresponds to the appropriate location within the lookup table.

===Deformer Extensions===
Morph extensions could be thought of as a partial implementation of morph targets specifically for use in combination with Qarl's deformer. This would be a blend between Qarl's mesh deformer, and vertex map pruning.

The idea behind this is to define unique vertex positions that would then be encoded into a vertex map on the mesh, much like how morph targets work in general. The defining factor however, is the mesh deformer would do the majority of the deformation, with the morph target only containing the vertex positions that otherwise wouldn't be included if the content creator were to just rely on the mesh deformer.

Deformer extensions could be calculated upon upload, using the mesh deformer to help determine which portions of the morph targets to discard in the process.
====Advantages====
This could be seen as a partial solution, and potentially has the highest level of bandwidth mitigation, while still retaining some of the control that full morph targets would give content creators.
====Disadvantages====
The biggest disadvantage with this would primarily involve educating content creators how to create morph targets that would yield the best results with this method.
====Workflow====
The workflow for deformer extensions has the potential to get tedious. Content creators would have to know how the deformer would deform their content, and plan their morph targets accordingly. Although it has the ability to cut down on the amount of bandwidth needed for morph targets, the workflow may be untenable for content creators.
====Implementation====
Deformer extensions would effectively blend one of the two previous options with Qarl's mesh deformer. Using vertex map pruning, the majority of the morph target would reference the same exact vertex position within the common position look up table. A new set of parameters that get transmitted with rigged meshes that controls the overall morph target value would accompany an avatar's shape texture which would then control how much a morph is applied. A reference position could also be encoded for each morph target as well, allowing the viewer to decide how far a rigged mesh's vertices should extend before a given morph is applied, reducing the need to transmit additional parameters.

==Proposed Initial Feature Set==
Since the initial release of morph targets would be geared towards fashion and avatar designers, the initial version should primarily have features that appeal to those people. As such, here is the proposed initial feature set for a version one release:
* Import of morph targets within a Collada file
* Application of morph targets on a worn rigged mesh
* Support for existing shape parameters (i.e., a morph target named "saddle_bags" in a mesh would correspond to the saddle bag shape parameter)

==Future Features==
* The ability to define custom morph parameters (i.e., foot_toe to control toe size, face_expression_smile to control a mesh's smile and other facial expressions, etc.)
* The ability to animate morph parameters
* The ability to define morph targets on static meshes

==Conclusion==
TBD

Morph Target Community Proposal

2012-08-03T11:33:49Z

Geenz Spad: /* Proposed Initial Feature Set */

This page is to contain the overall community proposal for "Morph Targets".

Please do not add to this page without authorization from a co-chair or a co-chair's assistant from the Content Creation Improvement User Group first. Please discuss any relevant points in the discussion tab in the wiki.
==What is a Morph Target?==
A morph target, also known as a blend shape, or a shape key in some 3D applications, is a special kind of "vertex map" containing the positions of vertices in relation to their original position on a mesh. They are relatively easy to work with, only requiring the content creator to "sculpt" or otherwise move the vertices on their meshes to the positions they'd like for a morph target.

Most 3D applications support authoring morph targets, such as Luxology Modo, Autodesk 3ds Max, Autodesk Maya, and Blender. The Collada file format also supports morph targets.
===What are they used for?===
Most modern video games use morph targets for complex animations that would otherwise be hard to accomplish with skeletal animation, such as facial animation, and even things like character customization. The viewer its self actually uses morph targets to enable avatar customization already.
===Why do we need them?===
A a small list of examples of what they could be used for in the context of Second Life include:
* Complex facial animations on rigged meshes
* Additional ways for a user to customize the appearance of their avatar
* Animating the surface of a prim without the need to use a custom skeleton
* Fine grained control for content creators over how their clothing and avatars deform
There's a lot that can be achieved with morph targets, and this is just a small list of things that can be accomplished

==Caveats of Existing Techniques==
Existing techniques, such as RedPoly's proposed cBones technique and Qarl Fizz's Mesh Deformer, have their own disadvantages that morph targets are intended to either mitigate, or solve completely.

"cBones" as they're called, have the caveat of requiring content creators to rig many more bones than what would otherwise be necessary for simply animating a rigged mesh. It extends the workflow of rigging a mesh substantially into taking several hours of work; sometimes with a significant amount of trial and error. On top of that, a content creator sometimes is working "blind" with regards to what the final outcome will be in-world. This is not seen as an ideal workflow, as it increases the burden on content creators to produce this content. It does, however, provide more control over the deformation process, and is potentially faster than Qarl's mesh deformer.

Qarl's mesh deformer has the benefit, and caveat, of deforming a rigged mesh in accordance to the avatar's current shape automatically. The reason why some may see this as a caveat, is because this doesn't ensure correct deformation all the time. An example of where this may be undesirable can include custom mesh avatars, where the entire avatar mesh is replaced. A content creator may want to make their avatar's belly deform differently than the avatar mesh's belly does, or may want to have their avatar's breasts deform differently. This is a problem that morph targets could easily solve, by putting content creators in control of how a rigged mesh deforms. The mesh deformer also currently depends on the content creator making their content around a specific shape for it to work properly. Morph targets would lessen the need for this to some degree.
==Morph Target Advantages==
There are a few advantages of morph targets that existing solutions do not provide.
===Workflow===
Morph targets allow a content creator to literally "sculpt" how a morph target should appear, directly within their 3D application of choice. This gives them the ability to directly control over how a mesh "deforms" around the avatar, or in the context of rigged mesh replacement avatars, how an avatar "deforms". An ideal workflow would enable content creators to create a "morph map", a special vertex map in their 3D application of choice, and begin sculpting how that morph target should look in-world with respect to the associated avatar mesh morph target.

Each morph target currently should correspond to an existing morph target on the avatar mesh. Some examples include:
* Belly size
* Torso muscularity
* Saddle bags
* Body fat
* Breast size

There are already several pre-existing tools that can work with morph targets, and there's several ways morph targets can be tested. 3D modeling applications such as Autodesk Maya, Autodesk 3ds Max, and Luxology Modo all support morph targets out of the box, and the Collada file format also supports morph targets. One could effectively test different morph target combinations directly within their 3D modeling application of choice, or even existing game-engine toolsets. This would allow for content creators to rapidly iterate with their work, making adjustments on the fly with minimal slow down by cutting out the need to upload meshes to test their work.

Another workflow possibility is one could effectively "bake" the different potential morphs of a mesh, and simply tweak them until the content creator has the general effect they're looking for.
===Performance===
Morph targets do have some performance implications, however they're largely mitigable. Depending on the implementation, morph targets could have a very small performance impact that could be less than that of Qarl's deformer. This would mean more avatars could be in view using morph targets on more rigged meshes, enabling more people to experience the benefits of mesh clothing that fits properly.

Furthermore, morph targets could some day become an optimization to Qarl's deformer by precalculating the morph targets for a mesh on import. This would provide the potential performance benefits that morph targets provide, while still enabling an automatic solution for content creators to make use of.

==Morph Target Disadvantages==
Morph targets are not entirely a perfect solution. There are a few notable disadvantages relating to bandwidth usage, and potential workflow disadvantages relating to specific implementations.
===Bandwidth===
Morph targets require additional information to be encoded either within a mesh, or within a texture. This means that additional bandwidth will be required to transmit any mesh with morph targets.

The bandwidth cost could be mitigated by either determining what vertices have a "similar" position across different morph targets and simply reusing those values, by only including a partial vertex map for the morph target by excluding vertices that don't have unique positions in the vertex map, or by even using textures that can be loaded progressively.

The amount of bandwidth required to support morph targets will vary depending on the implementation approach taken.
===Workflow===
Although the workflow is largely more streamlined than that of rigging a mesh, it does require content creators learn how to efficiently create morph targets. This will vary largely upon the implementation approach taken to support morph targets on Second Life.
==Implementation Approaches==
There are a few possible implementation approaches. They each of their advantages and disadvantages associated with them.
===Vector Displacement Maps===
A vector displacement map encodes the positional information for a given vertex on a mesh. They can operate with relatively low overhead, and can be accessed through a vertex shader to displace an object's vertices. They can also be "baked" and transmitted to other viewers after a morph has been finalized. They're also capable of working with or without tessellation, and can operate reasonably well at lower resolutions.
====Advantages====
They would also benefit from progressive loading, and could effectively function as a regular texture on the asset backend. Being regular images effectively means they can also take advantage of image compression.

They can also be used on practically any prim face as well, potentially paving the path towards a general purpose solution in the future for assigning morph targets to standard primitives, and virtually any arbitrary mesh in-world furthering the overall customization of in-world content.
====Disadvantages====
The primary disadvantage to this technique, would be the ability to "copy" the content without the creator's permission by simply using the UUID to the VDM.
====Workflow====
The VDM workflow could be largely transparent to content creators, by creating them on mesh upload.
====Implementation====
A VDM would be applied to the surface of a mesh, or a prim, through a special set of parameters. Multiple VDMs should be supported for morph targets, each one having a parameter that controls the strength of the morph.

Either the viewer could create an interpolated VDM on the CPU which would then be uploaded to the GPU for displacing a surface's vertices, or it could be a CPU-bound process wherein the VDMs are interpolated and applied to a surface's vertices.

===Vertex Map Pruning===
Vertex map pruning could work by storing a "common" position look up table that's derived from the mesh's morph targets. Each common position could be determined by comparing vertex positions within a given threshold, and positions that are similar are averaged and added to the lookup table. This entire process would be completely transparent to the content creator, and would be determined at import.
====Advantages====
This would help mitigate the bandwidth concerns, while also mitigating content theft concerns as meshes are not currently trivial to "copybot".
====Disadvantages====
The downside would be that this requires extensions to the mesh format that could create problems for older viewers that wouldn't support the new morph target functionality. Fallback mechanisms may need to be devised to ensure backwards compatibility. Performance may also become an issue, but ways to mitigate it is to expose a single vertex map to the GPU that contains interpolated vertex positions, from which the GPU can apply within a vertex program better enabling hardware acceleration on a wider range of hardware.
====Workflow====
As with VDMs, vertex map pruning would be transparent to content creators since much of the process would be done at import (meaning content creators will not need to know how to "prune" a morph target's vertices; just that they will be pruned within a given threshold).
====Implementation====
There are a few ways this could potentially be implemented, but the simplest would be to have a look up table of common vertex positions derived from the mesh's morph maps, with each reference to this look up table being a 16-bit index that corresponds to the appropriate location within the lookup table.

===Deformer Extensions===
Morph extensions could be thought of as a partial implementation of morph targets specifically for use in combination with Qarl's deformer. This would be a blend between Qarl's mesh deformer, and vertex map pruning.

The idea behind this is to define unique vertex positions that would then be encoded into a vertex map on the mesh, much like how morph targets work in general. The defining factor however, is the mesh deformer would do the majority of the deformation, with the morph target only containing the vertex positions that otherwise wouldn't be included if the content creator were to just rely on the mesh deformer.

Deformer extensions could be calculated upon upload, using the mesh deformer to help determine which portions of the morph targets to discard in the process.
====Advantages====
This could be seen as a partial solution, and potentially has the highest level of bandwidth mitigation, while still retaining some of the control that full morph targets would give content creators.
====Disadvantages====
The biggest disadvantage with this would primarily involve educating content creators how to create morph targets that would yield the best results with this method.
====Workflow====
The workflow for deformer extensions has the potential to get tedious. Content creators would have to know how the deformer would deform their content, and plan their morph targets accordingly. Although it has the ability to cut down on the amount of bandwidth needed for morph targets, the workflow may be untenable for content creators.
====Implementation====
Deformer extensions would effectively blend one of the two previous options with Qarl's mesh deformer. Using vertex map pruning, the majority of the morph target would reference the same exact vertex position within the common position look up table. A new set of parameters that get transmitted with rigged meshes that controls the overall morph target value would accompany an avatar's shape texture which would then control how much a morph is applied. A reference position could also be encoded for each morph target as well, allowing the viewer to decide how far a rigged mesh's vertices should extend before a given morph is applied, reducing the need to transmit additional parameters.

==Proposed Initial Feature Set==
Since the initial release of morph targets would be geared towards fashion and avatar designers, the initial version should primarily have features that appeal to those people. As such, here is the proposed initial feature set for a version one release:
* Import of morph targets within a Collada file
* Application of morph targets on a worn rigged mesh
* Support for existing shape parameters (i.e., a morph target named "saddle_bags" in a mesh would correspond to the saddle bag shape parameter)

==Future Features==
* The ability to define custom morph parameters (i.e., foot_toe to control toe size, face_expression_smile to control a mesh's smile and other facial expressions, etc.)
* The ability to animate morph parameters
* The ability to define morph targets on static meshes

==Conclusion==
TBD

Content Creation Improvement Informal User Group

2012-08-02T21:47:23Z

Geenz Spad:

Content Creation Improvement Informal User Group/Archive/July 31st, 2012 Meeting

2012-08-01T02:24:31Z

Geenz Spad: Created page with "{|style="border-collapse: collapse; border-style: none;" |- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;" | 15:04  | style="white-space:nowrap…"

{|style="border-collapse: collapse; border-style: none;"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:04 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| so any issues on the JIRA anyone feels like bringing up?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| well .. nothing teachers you the power of a raid array and a backup like a failed drive
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:05 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| Hi Siddean :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/nal Nal] 
| no JIRA's... Some people were trying to find out what Karl is doing and what the status of Redpoly process is at the Nyx's meeting.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:07 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/[noctis].mesh leather wingback chair (13p, 9 pe) whispers [noctis] MESH leather wingback chair (13p, 9 PE) whispers] 
|
(⇞PgUp or ⇟ PgDn ) change your pose. Touch for menu.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| well this is a bit light this evening
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:08 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| Build floater improvement discussion (continued from July 17, 2012's meeting) Geenz Spad
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:09 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| anyone want to discuss this? it's a bit of an important one :p
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:10 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/nal Nal] 
| It may be important, but I suspect few people are into interface design...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| i concur, and stated my opinions on the usefullness of gradiants in a build floater at out last meeting
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:11 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| well really, UI designers or not, one of the things brought up at the last meeting was what would be good groupings of items on the current floater
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:12 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| the point of the gradients example was to show how cramped the build floater was getting, and what adding new features will typically entail in terms of adding to that problem
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:13 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| adding a little bar listing off frequently used colors and gradients is one thing, now imagine adding something like another texture picker on top of that, or even something as small a color picker
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| but placing more things in the floater ... to suit the individual , then asking for the whole floater to be redisigned, may just add to the complexity , to which 5 out of 100 people wont use , is not the best use of resources, despite it being an inteligent suggestion
[15:15] KadahKadah was finally able to make one of these meetings.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:16 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| I think someone last week suggested a custom toolshelf which I would support but then the floater needs to be modular so bits and pieces could be added to the custom tab
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| which brings me to the next point: eventually the build floater will need a bit of a redesign, even if it comes in the form of segregating the floater into two modes: Basic, which resembles the classic build floater we saw SL grow up with, and Extended/Advanced, being one that can better accommodate additional parameters, whatever they may be
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| yeah I was susggesting the layout be customizable so that you can move the layout accordin gto the features you most often use
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:17 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| now the question is, how do we go about such a redesign: do we the residents come up with an idea, even if it's a rough one, of what is required to make such a redesign "work" for most people, or do we leave it LL to sort it out
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| personally I'd prefer not to have the build floater sitting out over my screen realestate, I'd like to dock it to the sidebar :p
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| well maybe you could put it out there which features are the ones people tend to use
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| again ... i concur with Siddean
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| there could even be layout presets
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| Accordion? The build floter is using an accordion control(s) now?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| ah, looks like things are picking up
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| to me .. that would be the BIGGEST improvement
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:18 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| Hi Crash :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/crash.uladstron Crash Uladstron] 
| hello guys
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| build floater isn't using accordions to my knowledge Kadah
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:19 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| welcome to those just joining us; we're picking up on the build floater discussion from last week
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| I would hope it ever does, that is one of the most screen wasteful control in the viewer.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| as always, you can find the agenda here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation_Improvement_User_Group feel free to add to it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| you could do asome kind of survey to see which features of the build menu people tend to use and what they do in SL. For example a builder might tend to use different parts of the menu to a store owner
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sasy.scarborough Sasy Scarborough] 
| contents and general to be seen at once would make my SLife
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:20 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| we could do that, yeah
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| you could see what features the average resident uses, make that the default layout
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:21 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| could start a few JIRAs I suppose; not unless Oz can get a survey pushed out to the login screen
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| Surveys are mostly useless, the sample sizes are never anything meaningful.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sasy.scarborough Sasy Scarborough] 
| a log in one that you cant log in until you do it :D
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| I'll happily help propagate out a survey through blogs and plurk and whatnot
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| they tend to do a bit better when people can actually comment on them
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| thus the JIRA idea
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| maybe on the SL forum?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| you could gather UI ideas
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:22 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| that could work
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/crash.uladstron Crash Uladstron] 
| sl forum and blogs plurk etc ,they are dif crowds
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| yeah
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| I think getting a jira in and then linking that would be good.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sasy.scarborough Sasy Scarborough] 
| would example ideas be a good idea ? like a pick your own adventure concept
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| Additional viewer metrics would be very helpful, but there doesn't exist the framework for such at this time.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:23 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/nal Nal] 
| If you are going to try and get the community involved in designing a new Build Panel, I think you are making it unusually difficult. Find a coupld of creatives that want to help and start experimenting like Niran does.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| that would probably be helpful; though now that I think about it, let's go about it like this:
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| could even set up an email, then reach out to SL blog owners/ post on the SL forum and say if you have feature ideas/ design concepts send them to this email
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| (Plus LL can't even keep their current limited viewer stats system functional.)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| first, let's gather feedback about the pro's and con's of the existing build flaoter
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:24 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sasy.scarborough Sasy Scarborough] 
| you cant resize it is a con
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| a few off the top of my head: localizations more often than not overflow off the side of the floater, things are getting cramped, it'll be hard to add additional features to it..
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| its hard to add on new features con
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| The XUI layout is too horrid to even think about resize support.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| one massive pro I can think of, is the existing floater is simple
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:25 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sasy.scarborough Sasy Scarborough] 
| could it be snappable like the drop downs are, couldnt build be top bar item instead ?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| anyone can pick up the existing build UI and figure out how to use it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| My biggest issue with it is that its larger (compared to v1) but yet feel far more cramped.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| so those are some pros and cons to get things rolling
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:26 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| Con - it is annoying to have it over working space and having to adjust the camera or floater to see/select what's underneath it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| after that, we can begin identifying ways to either fix what's already there (as interim fixes), or how to make a whole new floater that can fit the same pros, while offering better functionality
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:27 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| ill keep a tab on whats been said pros and cons
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| It needs utility without taking up a third to half the screen. :p
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sasy.scarborough Sasy Scarborough] 
| across the top of the screen would be great
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| docked
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| thank you Typhaon, you can also post a forum thread if you like and link it to today's meeting notes once they're up and last week's notes if you wish
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:28 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| so, docking seems to be something that'd be pretty nice
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| Across the top would be annoying in widescreen.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| maybe make it configurable in where it can be docked?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sasy.scarborough Sasy Scarborough] 
| it could only drop down if you want it too but if it was only as thick as nav bar i think that would be great
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| nice thing I absolutely love about Modo's UI: anything can be docked and undocked to the user's preferences
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:29 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sasy.scarborough Sasy Scarborough] 
| only contents would need to be something that came down
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| We would need docking support to start with.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| this is true
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| Which its never had.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| Yes, I love the way the V3 UI works with the buttons down the side that you can move around. Something like that that appears in build mode would be good
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| (seeing as how the viewer doesn't support such a concept)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sasy.scarborough Sasy Scarborough] 
| agreed
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| and the ability to just remove it altogether if you never use build
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| Let alone allowing advanced docking and dymanic layouts.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:30 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| to solve the cramping, could have expandable menus
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| could be a good reason to add such support however Kadah, as hellish as working with the viewer's UI already is :p
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:31 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| The viewer's UI code and XUI currently is very very far from supporting dynamic layouts. Its a pipe dream right now :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/qie.niangao Qie Niangao] 
| Just an observation that most of the General tab contents are on the Object Profile (opens in an Inventory floater) which is most of what's useful to non-creators in the Build floater. (well, that and Contents)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:32 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| so, my general feeling right now is if we do add a new build UI, or replace the existing one, we should make it configurable
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| Oh how nice it would be to change contents from inventory
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| (Not unless someone wants to replace LL's UI with a standard GUI toolkit like QT, GTK, etc :P)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:33 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| one thing about the contents is the refresh time it takes when you place a few things in there at once
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| I have a couple of ideas of how we could make a configurable UI Kadah, but I doubt it'd fit within the XUI spec :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| The current build floater is ancient code, no one was wanted to touch it too much because its made of fossils and dust.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| s/was/has
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| that, and it would probably invoke the wrath of many a builder :p
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:34 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| well..wrath until they figure out that it's better than it is now :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| Oz, about 1.5 years ago, challenged me to rewrite it. I wasn't that stupid. :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:35 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| well, what would people think of having the old UI around for the sake of something that's easy to use for people who just want to casually pop in, and move their furniture around?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sasy.scarborough Sasy Scarborough] 
| i think that would work people dont like change too much
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| you have to sneak it in
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| I mean if we're changing just the layout there could be an option to choose the old layout
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| (The product team also rejected all of my proposals too.)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:36 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/crash.uladstron Crash Uladstron] 
| I think many will flip out on a changed layout with no option to rever to old,see V2,V3 for reference
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| makes it less of a rewrite on the backend side of things (what people like Kadah and myself would be doing) and more of an addition with regards to a "new" UI that would, in theory, include whatever advanced features that I totally know nothing about that could come later down the road
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| should be a revert for sure
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sasy.scarborough Sasy Scarborough] 
| also for those returning after absense
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| absence
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:37 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| If the upper 1/4 of the build floater contained the basic "move, view, and name things" abilities, the floater could just be collapsed.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| It mostly does now, but its a mess of "also me" addons over the years.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:38 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| this way, people who don't want change don't have to deal with change, and it gives the people who will be working on this a bit more creative freedom with regards to making something that increases efficiency, solves most of the problems of the existing one, and adds plenty of room for expansion
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| Creating completely new workflows kills existing efficiency.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:39 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sasy.scarborough Sasy Scarborough] 
| while we are making a wish list i would like that if you set the perms on something to be no transfer that if you add items to it that are transfer it yells at you :D
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| this is where we get into "how can we design it to improve existing efficiency"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:40 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| it was mentioned last week as well about shift selecting multiple inventory items so that you can edit their properties all at once
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| I remember alot of people liking that one
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/finlay.macfanatic Finlay MacFanatic] 
| I liked it...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sasy.scarborough Sasy Scarborough] 
| is that on the ground or in inventory , because if you swap perms in inventory you risk the perms bug
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| that's more of an inventory UX thing, kinda makes me wonder what happened to the simple inventory project
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:41 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| And doing drastic redesigns is hard/impossible without the inherent risk of alienating some portion of old users.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| doing any kind of redesign has that risk, but in this case it's something that'll have to happen sooner or later
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:42 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| because right now what we have, despite getting everyone by over the years and still being as functional as ever, is showing its age
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| And one thing that does need to be address is the huge technical issues with any actions involving an objects contents.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/crash.uladstron Crash Uladstron] 
| I doubt anyone actually up and left because of new things ,they will cry a bit and then they'll adapt
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| ^ Actually, they do.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| so anyways, one thing Oz mentioned last time that I'd like to see myself:
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:43 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| what would be useful groupings of existing functionality for this "new" build interface
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| whioch i read as .. " let snot make it better ..... let sjust group it together , so change for no improvement"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:44 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| (I have the numbers showing how non existent the adoption of v2/3 has been in the years since shortly after release. But this is a different matter.)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| and just to touch on Beanster's final agenda item before we run out of time today: no clue, but I imagine Qarl will say something on metareality when there's an update
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:45 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| and Braydon, if that's how you read it, then be my guest to propose an idea as to how we can improve the current state of affairs
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:46 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| It seems to have stalled again, its jira should have an indication of what the status is
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:47 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| it hasn't been updated for some time, not by Qarl or any Lindens at least. Nalates ran a poll on her blog last week asking if people still want the deformer first and the result was a loud yes I believe!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| the reality of the situation .. is that we have camps of " its not broke lets not change it" ...... to " lets throw everything in a pot .. so we can choose what we want dispite it looking cramped and unusuable" ... to my camp , which is " lets keep it as simple as possible , make it dockable, and be able make people build " does anybody here use old blender ... 2.49 , people would open it ..... then close it again in terror
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| THAT ... is what loading a UI with crap .... does to the average person
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:48 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| it inhibits them
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sasy.scarborough Sasy Scarborough] 
| laughs because i did exactly that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| the big UI change in Blender was like a revolving door
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| well... I think the V3 UI is hugely improved on the old SL UI. I open phoenix now and close it in terror because I don't know where anything is
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:49 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/tiberious.neruda Tiberious Neruda] 
| I use old Blender
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| Just remember that "simple" in designspeak means less options and functionality.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| But there's still room for improvement
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| but ...... do we want to elitist
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| or want SL to be more " useable"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sasy.scarborough Sasy Scarborough] 
| builders and content creators should aim for that :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/finlay.macfanatic Finlay MacFanatic] 
| I just want to stop making things nine times.. and things still not fitting
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:50 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| also, I'm just gonna put this over here for now~
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| remember ... cload party ... as increased " user useablity " ... max wants us to have something resembling a GUI for an amiga ... in a 3 by 5 box
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| Be careful around LL when you say "something needs to be simpler", there normal modus operandi is "options are bad".
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/maisy maisy] 
| maybe a builders viewer might be a simpler option
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:51 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sasy.scarborough Sasy Scarborough] 
| an option at log in ?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| remember ... i want lots of options ...... but i dont want everything on screen at the same time ... or my Sl wondow ... will be a 2 x 2 bow .. surrounded with other boxes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sasy.scarborough Sasy Scarborough] 
| like basic vs advanced
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| A builder UI mode
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| or preset
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/maisy maisy] 
| exactly
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| sorry spelling caused by incompetance
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| The login option thing was called a failure some time ago and killed.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:52 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sasy.scarborough Sasy Scarborough] 
| so builders mode would be more advanced and regular SL would have the building tools it has now
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| it would be cool to customize it and make your own presets, I dont know how realistic of a suggestion that is
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sasy.scarborough Sasy Scarborough] 
| so you dont have to relog just to move a chair
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| i would get all mushy .... at an SL builder viewer ...... rather than a " your all stupid .. so we makey da UI like facebook" interface
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| why not put the advanced mode under a button like it is in graphics preferences? You don't have to have all that stuff visible if you don't want to
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| Or the way it is under the snapshot option?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| yeah
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| that works for me Siddean
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:53 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| well, I doubt we'll ever see a builder's specific viewer distributed by LL :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sasy.scarborough Sasy Scarborough] 
| good idea Siddean
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| but a builder's mode that can be toggled sounds interesting
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| I hated logging into SL to find I was in "noob mode" and having to log out to get the "advanced" regular mode
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| im looking at this from a realistic point of view , and its not a negative one , unless its a TPV done thing , the chances are virtually non existant on ANY "improvement"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| LL will likely ever support two different UI schemes again, they decided that it had no positive affect to offer such. :p
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:54 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| s/ever/never
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| well, imagine this, and just an FYI I'm not confirming anything here, nor should any of you count this as "news" on the matter:
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| so the best we can hope for ...... is so rearranging of whats there
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:55 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| if thats the case ... i vote for an advanced menu .... and docking
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| say at some undefined point in time, LL adds the long awaited ability to add a custom bumpmap to a surface
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| now, naturally you'll want a texture picker for that, yes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| ?*
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:56 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| so how would they add that to the existing UI?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/maisy maisy] 
| could you not just have your regular build controls and say .. press a button like you do to get the advanced menu up to take you into some dort of advanced building mode
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| the texture tab is already really cramped, probably the best example thus far
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| by adding a " materials" floater .... as they SHOULD
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| What may be more pratical is a basic and everything mode for the build floater, possible similar to the legacy more/less it used to have.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/tiberious.neruda Tiberious Neruda] 
| I could get behind that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:57 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| that's an option as well
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| Just adding more/less functionality would be easy (and in fact is already done).
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| its an option , thats dependant on wether or not LL gets behind making SL a realistic 3d enviroment , or just pushing pathfinder projects .. or rejects from the LL Worlds projects .. into the SL system
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/tiberious.neruda Tiberious Neruda] 
| especially if it offered custom shininess textures
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:58 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| but as i said , very much dependent ..... on wether LL intend to spend any time and money on that project
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| I'm pretty sure we'll see something regarding materials soon
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| and trust me on this; I would know
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:59 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| ^
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/crash.uladstron Crash Uladstron] 
| that's great news
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| Another problem is that 3D editing tools, in general, are not as "straight forward" as something like a 2D paint application.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| i would hope so , but this isnt about materials , its about the useablity for the User , and LL have simplified things significantly , yet .... hiding stuff under the real estate carpet " just makes it harder for people
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 16:00 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| another good point Kadah
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| So there may be no real "noob friendly" option. :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| so, how does everyone feel about the idea of a basic and advanced mode for the current floater?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| But there is a big different between paint.exe and PS
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sasy.scarborough Sasy Scarborough] 
| for
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/finlay.macfanatic Finlay MacFanatic] 
| I'd like that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| I like it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| yeah I like it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 16:01 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/finlay.macfanatic Finlay MacFanatic] 
| ... but I liked Dolphin too
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| im no noob , by any shake of the foxes tail , but im playing devils advocate here , LL want user retention , and we allready have the " mesh neghsayers" claiming the wolds against them etc ..... but hey , im just against the " maxwell graff" PS in a box mentality , in favor of the " lets make it workable ...... " first
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| I think there has to be more of a consensus though
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 16:02 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| the community have to be happy with it before diving right in
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/finlay.macfanatic Finlay MacFanatic] 
| if they had stuff that fit and made them sexy again.. I'm sure they'd love mesh
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 16:03 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| im afraid mesh cant fix uglyness
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| I agree Typhaon, which of course is supposed the be one of the intended purposes of this group; getting a consensus on features and functionality that would generally be beneficial to content creation as a whole on SL
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/finlay.macfanatic Finlay MacFanatic] 
| I keep trying to take you hair shopping
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| You could have 3 modes. 1) a basic new floater for moving objects with some other basic functions like naming. 2) a shorten version of the current build floater. 3) then the full, expanded build floater.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 16:04 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| how about ....... they sort the mesh floater ..... and add the sexy stuff to that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| and leave the normal build floater to the people who want sex and free lindens ... so they can resize their free penis
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/finlay.macfanatic Finlay MacFanatic] 
| you'd be better off with two Kadah.. no one orders the medium drink.. its small or bladder buster
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 16:05 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sasy.scarborough Sasy Scarborough] 
| or how about the basic for people that just want to be able to move things around or for CSR's etc that need to check perms and so on, name vendors , rename items in contents etc
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| hm
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| whelp, I will say this
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| I think we've found a new topic to keep these meetings as active as ever since morph targets moved into proposal mode :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| As far as retentions, I think the only retention problem they have and continue to have, without any change despite many efforts to, is with new users. User retion on TPVs has been in positive growth for a long time, but LL's viewer has been relatively flat.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 16:06 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| The modes 2 and 3 would just the the same UI but compacted, the primary use there would be less screen space when needed.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 16:07 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| well, on that note I have homework for all of you! And don't worry, it doesn't require any special UI design skills :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/tiberious.neruda Tiberious Neruda] 
| that's because the TPVs offer stuff that LL's client doesn't
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| 2 and 3 we could implement today, its already exists.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| yes like temp textures
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| so we have this rather large topic about the build floater, now of this topic there are plenty of possible directions it can go
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| Temp or local textures?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 16:08 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| we already have local textures in V3
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| both are a bennefit to me , as generally .. beta grid is crappy at the best of times
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| so what I'd like people to do, is get the word about about the build UI discussion; who knows! we may get someone who knows how to design a UI on board!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| Temp textures is a misuse abuse that emerald started. :/
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/finlay.macfanatic Finlay MacFanatic] 
| the beta grid hates me
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 16:09 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| its a misuse ..... that is exceptionally usefull that works
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/tiberious.neruda Tiberious Neruda] 
| one thing we can do with it is actually SHOW it to other people
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| before that ... sdpending 100L on testing .. was abuse *lol*
[16:09] KadahKadah already designs UIs now though :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| so let's get word out about a build floater UI rework; maybe not entirely a redesign, maybe it could be a whole new mode as someone mentioned, maybe it could be an extension of the existing floater, etc.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/tiberious.neruda Tiberious Neruda] 
| critical functionality you CAN'T do with the 'local library'
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sasy.scarborough Sasy Scarborough] 
| http://www.flickr.com/photos/61900109@N02/7070702407/in/photostream I would love build tools like how William Weaver did this plug in for windlight, amazing work - sorry it took me that long to find it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 16:10 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| but regardless, we need input, we need criticism, we need ideas for something like this from people in the builder's camp
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/tiberious.neruda Tiberious Neruda] 
| and if I'm doing a skin for someone, I want them to see it and approve it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 16:11 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| now Typhaon I believe will be taking care of a forum thread for us, so let's try to organize there if we can
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| Kadah, I'm assuming you'd be willing to take on some of the design responsibilities for this one?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 16:12 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| I likely would have been already. If the design is anything I can agree with, I more than likely will (time permitting).
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 16:13 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| ive got a notecard that I'll try and mush together best I can
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| do bear in mind that you'll be working around people's criticisms on the matter, but being a TPV dev I'm sure you're fairly thick skinned already and know how to take that :p
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/nal Nal] 
| IS anyone talking to the folks at Builders Brewry?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| Currently I can't stand LL's viewer, or FS, or any thing else based off V2/3, so I'll need to do something just to make something suitable for myself.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 16:14 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| I had asked one of the owners of BB in an offline IM, but never got anything back; would be beneficial to the cause if someone were to inform them of these little get togethers we have
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 16:15 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| (Nor Singularity, but thats because they managed to imported an accessibility issue from v2/3 thats a blocker for me.)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/tiberious.neruda Tiberious Neruda] 
| I have only one or two gripes about FS....
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| I have several, but that's not quite relevant to this meeting :p
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 16:16 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/tiberious.neruda Tiberious Neruda] 
| well, one of them -is-
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| so anyways, in closing
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/tiberious.neruda Tiberious Neruda] 
| it doesn't render shiny invisiprims
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| (since we're at our time limit)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| build UI - lets get more feedback and try to get something going with improving it while keeping existing users happy
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 16:17 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/finlay.macfanatic Finlay MacFanatic] 
| a button that hides it from them should keep them happy enough...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/tiberious.neruda Tiberious Neruda] 
| is there some place there's a mock-up of what you'd be looking to do?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| Qarl's deformer - no idea what the deal is with this; there's probably a hold up on either LL or Qarl's end
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| Tiberious: currently we're kind of in a bit of an information gathering stage
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/tiberious.neruda Tiberious Neruda] 
| oh
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 16:18 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| can't put together a concept without ideas and feedback on those ideas
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/kadah Kadah] 
| Mesh deformer, probably stuck in an LL pipe clogged with meeroo glue.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 16:19 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| and also, an update on morph targets (and interestingly enough, why they're no longer on the agenda) - this is now in proposal mode, and you can actually find what's currently on the proposal here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Morph_Target_Community_Proposal
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| you can comment on it in the discussion section of the wiki, whether it's technical details, user facing details, or what have you
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 16:20 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| all feedback will be taken into consideration with regards to the proposal, and once it's in a state of completion it'll be forwarded to the appropriate lindens for review, and with permission a prototype will be made and presented to them
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 16:21 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| anyways, that concludes today's meeting, thanks everyone for coming out!
|}

Content Creation Improvement Informal User Group/Archive

2012-08-01T02:24:24Z

Geenz Spad:

Content Creation Improvement Informal User Group/Archive/July 24th, 2012 Meeting

2012-07-31T22:02:12Z

{|style="border-collapse: collapse; border-style: none;"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:04 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| alright, now that everyone's here, let's get started
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/anouk.spot Anouk Spot] 
| hi!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| i would give my feet .......... :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:05 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/asha Asha] 
| lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| anyways, a couple of things before we get started
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| Can I ask that we try and keep chatter to a minimum, there's a lot to get through today :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| indeed
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| a couple of things on the agenda will be condensed, since there are a number of major items on there today; everyone can find the agenda here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation_Improvement_Informal_User_Group
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| thats me told off then .... allready
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:06 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| so, let's get started with JIRA discussion
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| any interesting JIRAs today?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| is that alpha issue on the shirt/undershirt being hashed out?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:07 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| which one in particular?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/selkit.t. woozl Selkit T. Woozl] 
| If I recall, the edge blending issue?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| the bald spot we get on the stomach
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| ar eyou talking about the gap between them?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| yes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| i forget the jira number
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| oh, I haven't had time to look into that one yet; but if I'm correct, it should just be a modification of some local textures
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| I'll look into that one this week
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| great!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:08 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| none others from me!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/selkit.t. woozl Selkit T. Woozl] 
| Can you dig up the specific JIRA, Elie?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SH-2103
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| should be able to get that sent upstream before the shining project gets too far under way
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| is that the one Elie?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| thanks typyh!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| thats it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/selkit.t. woozl Selkit T. Woozl] 
| That's it indeed, Typhaon.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| Thank you kindly.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| np
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| anything else anyone wants to bring up?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:09 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| alright the, moving on I suppose
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| today I'd like to bring up a community proposal I've been working on over the weekend for morph targets
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:10 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| all of you can find it here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Morph_Target_Community_Proposal
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| now, a few bits about this: this does not indicate that LL will be doing this, and right now it primarily focuses on clothing
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:11 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| there's somethings that are yet to be decided on the proposal, and that's where you guys come in!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:12 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| now, there's no way we can pack in the entire discussion of what should be a part of the initial features of it, so instead I'd like people to focus on posting your feedback on the discussion page of that wiki article
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| good idea!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| there are instructions on how to do that on the wiki, and the best part is there's a bit more posterity than the meetings by doing so
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/selkit.t. woozl Selkit T. Woozl] 
| And more effective recall of any salient points.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:14 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| now, we are currently focusing on how this can improve clothing, and although I do understand the applications for prims and non-rigged meshes, those should be seen as a later goal
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| think of this as putting together the framework
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:15 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| So from a content creators perspective, what do we need to know/learn? In terms of what we do to our models?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| what kind of features are you looking for?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| once we have the framework in place, in theory we should be able to improve it later
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:16 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| any feature that would improve content creators' workflows by using morph targets
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| now, you're all free to ask any questions in the discussion page there, and someone will try their best to answer them
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:17 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| so should we just jot all our thoughts down and post them to this wiki then?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| so for now, let's focus the morph target conversation there
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| alright
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| that's correct Elie
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| ok
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| There's a discussion tab
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| yes, so posting it here in this meeting is just so we're all aware of it, and how to continue the discussion (via the wiki)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:18 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| indeed
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| cool
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| hopefully this should help with our time constraints as well :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/nal Nal] 
| CAn more than one perrson at a time edit the Discussion page in the wiki?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/selkit.t. woozl Selkit T. Woozl] 
| We could quite readily get lost in a topic like that otherwise. ;)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| should be able to, not entirely sure
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| we sure could selkit ;)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:19 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| but if your topic doesn't post, just try again
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/nal Nal] 
| I'm not certain thats a problem, but I have had problems editing agendas during meetings.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| anyways, there's a couple of subjects we didn't quite get last time
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| so, to start things off:
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| Build floater improvement discussion (continued from July 17, 2012's meeting) Geenz Spad
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:20 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| we touched on this one briefly last time, so to reiterate:
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| the build floater now days is starting to look quite cramped; adding more features to it just results in it looking more and more pressed for space
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:21 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| Maybe this is just me, but even if the build floater was the worst thing in the world, I don't even know how I'd recognize what needed to be changed because I'm so used to it lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/selkit.t. woozl Selkit T. Woozl] 
| I'm slightly biased towards the pie menu, but that may just be the oldbie in me talking. ;)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| I loved the pie menu
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| so friendly
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| because of how cramped it is at this time, certain localizations seemingly break the floater with words actually overflowing out of it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:22 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| if people want a good example of how cramped this thing is, here's the idea that Maxwell brought up last week for adding texture and color sets to it
[15:22] Can't rez object at { 150.346, 97.3415, 29.405 } because the owner of this land does not allow it. Use the land tool to see land ownership.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:23 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| Is there a reason why the build floater can't be resizable? Forgive me if that's a dumb question
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| i can see the bennefit of possibly display the last texture history ..... but gradients im not sure is such a bennefit
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:24 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| and i still believe .... that making the floaters undockable off the viewer .. would be the biggest bennefit
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| yeah i personally cant see that one getting used much.. cool idea though
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| it may not be additional texture pickers, but it certainly demonstrates the problem; the more we add, the less space we have, and the more we have to find ways to condense existing features
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/anouk.spot Anouk Spot] 
| i wondered about that too. seems like if it re sizable\ it could help
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| were*
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/asha Asha] 
| I don't see gradients getting used much either.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| i agree, i also think the pay floater should be resizable, so many times the product name gets cut off and customers can't see the color or description
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/anouk.spot Anouk Spot] 
| right
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:25 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| resizable floaters would def help i think
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| how would that work out if we were to say, add additional texture or color pickers for whatever reason?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| personally I think some sort of "extended" mode wouldn't be bad
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| I think if certain options like the gradient/history are going to be added then there could be an extension tab from this menu to stop it from getting clustered
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| basically, click a button, get a different build floater designed to alleviate these problems and be more flexible for new features
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:26 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/angus.mesmer Angus Mesmer] 
| Could those be on a fold-out to the side of the floater, perhaps? Thus keeping the current disposition
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| i like the fold out idea
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| launching new floaters gets cluttered
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| yeah last week I suggested myabe like a "+" or "more" button if it were to be extended
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:27 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/selkit.t. woozl Selkit T. Woozl] 
| Task-optimized floaters like most 3dware, might not be a bad idea.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| an extended build floater I think should be more of a model for a "new" build floater
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| but you can get out of controll with that .... for each part will have its own section , which is what happens now .... you can only give convenience a priority .. if its not just laziness
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oz.linden Oz Linden] 
| Bear in mind that if you invent mechanisms that the viewer does not have in some existing floater, you make the job very much more difficult.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/selkit.t. woozl Selkit T. Woozl] 
| For example, the texturing or render manager tabs, or the geometry manipulation modes.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| with the old build floater staying around for people who prefer to work with it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/angus.mesmer Angus Mesmer] 
| I also find myself using the texture align quite often, not sure if bottom right, under the rest is the best place.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/selkit.t. woozl Selkit T. Woozl] 
| Texture align is a godsend.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| Some spots on this very build would not have been possible without.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| extend the ones that are useful to you
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| the reasoning behind this is to make it easier to add new functionality, and have more space for things like different localizations
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:28 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| I believe Nal brought up a good point regarding the german version of SL and the build floater
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| on that version, words will actually overflow due to the amount of space we have for the floater
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:29 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| would resize be a viable solution?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| resize would be cool
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| a bottom right resizer?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| so we should learn ancient eqyptian *lol*
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| I think that'd be a bit of a bandage for the existing floater
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| for some reason I always try to resize it as like a natural reaction
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| me tooo
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| haha
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| but a potentially viable temporary fix for the localizations
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| same w/ the pay floater
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| when i see a product name being cut off
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:30 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| (at least in the interim)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| each time I think its gna happen
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| so that may be doable for now
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/angus.mesmer Angus Mesmer] 
| such a shame there's too much stuff to make it a tool bar..
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| Localisations - different language settings right?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| has anyone seen the build UI in Cloud Party?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| do we have anyone who pokes at UIs at all in the crowd? :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| and yes Siddean
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| thanks :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:31 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/asha Asha] 
| Yes Elie, I have.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| the UI in cloud party is a bit more akin to a 3D modeling application such as Modo
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| I really like that one
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| with the shelf of icons up top and the extended options for each on the left
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/selkit.t. woozl Selkit T. Woozl] 
| My main objection to the SL UI in its current state is that it's really, quite clumsy in some areas.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| though I don't think people will receive a sidebar particularly well :p but it's something we could experiment with
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/selkit.t. woozl Selkit T. Woozl] 
| Texturing could use more attention than it currently gets.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| right, I just think the floater idea makes more sense when you've not got as many build options as we have
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/selkit.t. woozl Selkit T. Woozl] 
| In fact, one moment; I'll show you a bit more about what I mean.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| we've got a complex amount of capabilities
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:32 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/angus.mesmer Angus Mesmer] 
| Believe me, I don't mean *that* sidebar.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| it makes sense to equal that with a more fitting UI for build mode
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| we could go more in this direction (Selkits finding more examples): http://www.solidsmack.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/modo-step-by-step-05.jpg
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| not just a floater
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| I think Oz snuck it in there ...... ideals and wants are great .... but little ideas ... or not little realities
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| note how Modo handles additional attributes about a mesh
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| resizable and customizable
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| are*
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:33 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| so maybe taking a page out of a 3D modeling application's book wouldn't be a bad idea?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| albeit, somewhat more simple mind you
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| not a bad idea, I wish I could find a screencap of Cloud Party build mode UI
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| SL isn't a 3D modeling application afterall
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| they've combined friendly easy to understand icons w/ a more intense 3d setup
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| so is LL looking to redesign the build floater? or are wesuggesting this as a new feature?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:34 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| suggesting
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| mmmh
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| I think our build floater just needs to resize to accommodate what is in it, whether it be more options, or different language scripts
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| we've clearly used up the current build floater, its just too much
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| I can't say that LL is going to *for sure* change the build floater, but I believe even they get the feeling that it should be reworked sometime soon
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| i vote we use blender 2.49 ui * laughs*
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/selkit.t. woozl Selkit T. Woozl] 
| This is a sample of the UI in Modo 601, my usual 3Dware of choice.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| Purpose-built functional sidebars somewhat similar in concept to the floater.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| Each one pared down by category to a specific task.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/asha Asha] 
| lol Bray.... don't start a massacre
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:35 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/selkit.t. woozl Selkit T. Woozl] 
| With a user-customizable selection.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:36 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| so we are heading towards a " SL Viewer builders edition"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/selkit.t. woozl Selkit T. Woozl] 
| More windows in the floater might not be such a bad idea provided they're sensibly categorized and task-focused.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| I think it makes more sense that SL Viewer Newbie Edition :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/angus.mesmer Angus Mesmer] 
| Amen to that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| this might be a weird question but.... if we offer up any UI improvements, should we keep mobile versions in mind? idk if LL will ever go that route w/ SL but it might be valuable to consider
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| let's steer away from having "editions" of the viewer :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/selkit.t. woozl Selkit T. Woozl] 
| And the key notion is, build up in optional complexity.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:37 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| I quite like the idea of customizing it, being able to create your own. I've seen that on more and more recent websites where you customize how you want it to look so its suited to how you want to use it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| we already have enough TPVs out there that effectively serve that purpose
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oz.linden Oz Linden] 
| What do you think that the natural/useful task groupings are?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| newbie edition will have the " i need 100L till tommorow can we have sex now" buitton ?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| how about we establish a couple of tasks today:
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:38 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/selkit.t. woozl Selkit T. Woozl] 
| Oz; I would feel that the 'natural' task groupings would be geometry, functions, animation (Assuming we end up with a GMod 13 style option to preview/adjust them?) and texturing with materials options on the off chance that surfaces.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| Oz has a very good question, what task groupings would be useful
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| Oz - for someone like me, permissions, textures, name and descriptions and a small section for contents incase scripts need to be added.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oz.linden Oz Linden] 
| Just a brainstorming exercise... forget layout and size...what control groups should there be, and which of the existing controls should be in the same groups?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| so let's focus on coming up with some task groupings that both feel natural together, and can increase productivity
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:39 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/finlay.macfanatic Finlay MacFanatic] 
| I'm with Siddean
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| personally .. i dont have a problem with how its grouped ....
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/selkit.t. woozl Selkit T. Woozl] 
| Asset, Function, Geometry, Texturing, with the option of animation if features arise.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| i agree w/ sid
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| and second, I'd like to put out an open call for people to submit ideas for a new build floater; concept images or rough drawings of how a new build floater should work would be preferrable
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:40 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/selkit.t. woozl Selkit T. Woozl] 
| And from there, prioritize the arrangement of features inside the submenu by prevalence; Texture alignment definitely needs more than the footnote placement it has right now.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| they can IM me directly, send me images on SL, they can even email them to me at geenz@exodusviewer.com
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| p.s. this is the cloud party one, the top buttons are pretty bad actually, but i like the arrangement.. shelf up top with options on the left and a scrollbar - http://grabilla.com/02718-cab7f441-6652-4b63-89f2-088e4c407a1b.png
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/selkit.t. woozl Selkit T. Woozl] 
| Top buttons IMHO are something to -always- avoid.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:41 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| they're bad
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/selkit.t. woozl Selkit T. Woozl] 
| Any UI that requires your mouse to leave the workspace altogether is inefficient.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| and we'll go through some of these at next week's meeting
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| sound good everyone?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/angus.mesmer Angus Mesmer] 
| One of the things I see would be a separate floater for terraforming/Linden plants. Since most of the tabs don't apply.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| everyone is different which is why I would say that customizability is important. Some people prioritize thing sdifferently - so pehaps there should be a default layout/UI set then you can move which ones are suited for you
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/selkit.t. woozl Selkit T. Woozl] 
| Personally, I'd love to see something like the pie menu return, but... that may be a pie in the sky dream... ;)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| i'd like that too, i hit the wrong button all the time because of the way the menus are now
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| pie menu left more room for my clumsiness
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| sounds good
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| now, let's try to move on here, we have a couple more things to go
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:42 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sachi.vixen sachi Vixen] 
| We love pie!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| maybe we'll finish by 4 today!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| so, next up:
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| "Extended" skeleton for rigged meshes proposal discussion (continued from July 17, 2012's meeting) Geenz Spad 14:28, 16 July 2012 (PDT)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| this one was originally brought up at last week's mesh import meeting
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| the discussion was to the tune of "what bones would people want in the interim added to the avatar's skeleton"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:43 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| ideas brought up were tails, bones for the fingers and toes, and so on
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:44 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| now, just to be clear, this isn't necessarily "Avatar 2.0", think of it as more of an optional skeleton that people have the choice to rig against
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| well I can get on board with those!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| me2!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/anouk.spot Anouk Spot] 
| me3
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/crash.uladstron Crash Uladstron] 
| yes,I'd love toes and fingers
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| sid just wants permanent middle fingers up
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/selkit.t. woozl Selkit T. Woozl] 
| One word, 'Squee'
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/angus.mesmer Angus Mesmer] 
| Fingers would definitely be nice... Something more than the very few hand poses we have at the moment...
[15:45] Braydon RandtBraydon Randt gives up ever ever thinking that materials will be spoken about , and figures that rigging will be the christmas no.1 (still)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:45 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| what about an extra couple of bones on the head to rig longer hair to?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| or ears, for those inclined to wear them
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:46 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| well, let's list off things people want in terms of additional bones here:
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| additional bones for the extremities (fingers, toes)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| bones for ears (I *think* these already exist)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| hair really would help.. i've heard people have a heck of a time weight painting a bunch of separate hair pieces
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:47 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| bones for tails
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| hair, there's the tricky one
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| which is more along the line of "how do we make bones for hair"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:48 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/finlay.macfanatic Finlay MacFanatic] 
| ponytail?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| i'd think it would just be a couple for long styles going down the back, no?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| so that's one that's going to require a fair bit of discussion with no simple solutions
[15:48] Finlay MacFanaticFinlay MacFanatic shrugs
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| well, pony tail set of bones would work
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| is that acceptable for everyone?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/angus.mesmer Angus Mesmer] 
| A second spine attached to the back of your head
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:49 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| So, any new bones would have to have animations built into any mesh that uses them, correct?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/asha Asha] 
| Ponytail works
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| presumably yes, or at least you can animate them
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| alright, so pony tail bones
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| yes ... and lets not forgetting existing legacy content
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:50 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| any other additional bones people would like? within reason that is
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/anouk.spot Anouk Spot] 
| not that it's my industry, but i would imagine people might want umm, a penis bone of sorts, no?
[15:50] Braydon RandtBraydon Randt wonders if rob left when we started talking about bones
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| hahaha Anouk! Probably, yes :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| let's not get our hopes or anything elses up on that one Anouk :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/asha Asha] 
| You already covered tail?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| Question (This may be stupid) but the cbones redpoly was talking about adding, I believe to the chest and butt.. would those help in this case? not along the lines of their morph targets workaround, but as far as peopl ebeing able to rig more freely
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| eh, different situation
[15:51] Finlay MacFanaticFinlay MacFanatic looks forward to ponytail bones.. he'll be sporting a 'nice' mesh mullet
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:51 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| those would mostly have the function of having additional ways to "deform" something
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| let's think more about body parts we could animate
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| wlel im thinking of possible extensions, like.. extra butt bone would be a tail pretty much
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| tail bones is already on the list :p
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| i know
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| but for chest bones
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| ears and hair could be a singular entity
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:52 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| i know we have physics but im trying to think if there would be another use for some more rigging freedom in the chest area
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| penis bone ... i think the whiter and than white PG image sl has these days ... may not be so forth .. errr comming :p
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/lovely.gears Lovely Gears] 
| I was reading something about chin and the chance to rig a talking jaw for furries
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:53 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| well, let's focus on toes, fingers, tail, and pony tail
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| Oh chin bone is a good one
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| that sounds like a reasonable enough list for now
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| those would likely add the most functionality
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/lovely.gears Lovely Gears] 
| :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| geenz are you adding chin bone to that list
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| yeah I like the fingers and toes ideas, would give greater flexibility for posers
[15:53] Braydon RandtBraydon Randt sings ./. " and heeearrrrr the word of the lord"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:54 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| only if there's a clear use for it Elie
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| there's many different bones we could add, but for now let's stick with the ones with the obvious use cases
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:55 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/selkit.t. woozl Selkit T. Woozl] 
| I for one of the furry contingent, say it's long past time we had tail options. :D
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| I'm sure the furries in denial-- er, neko crowd, would agree!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| Dearie me, that was not nice of me. Sorry!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/asha Asha] 
| lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| oh dear
[15:56] AshaAsha does want to animate her Neko tail.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:56 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| :o
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/selkit.t. woozl Selkit T. Woozl] 
| Regarding the note of a chin bone, I think that's a very useful one.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| Animations for eating and drinking that don't simply involve the avatar pouring a drink into a closed mouth, for example.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| I agree, for more than animal avvies. :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:57 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/selkit.t. woozl Selkit T. Woozl] 
| Or war cries, or any number of exaggerated facial expressions.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/angus.mesmer Angus Mesmer] 
| And beards
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| alright, then we'll add chin bone to the list
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/selkit.t. woozl Selkit T. Woozl] 
| And yeah, hell, beards. Angry beard puffing!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| ...Oh dear. Now I need a TF2 Spy with a camera beard.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| Look what you've done. >:C
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| I think that'll do for now :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| its a bad day ... when selket starts to day dream
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 15:58 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/angus.mesmer Angus Mesmer] 
| Sorry.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/finlay.macfanatic Finlay MacFanatic] 
| I only dislike extremely the motorcycle 'ride' animation
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| alright, if that's all, then, shall we move on?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/selkit.t. woozl Selkit T. Woozl] 
| It's a bad day when the madboy at play starts scheming.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| And the motorcycle ride animation is... abysmal. Not even centered. ;)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| toes, fingers, tail, ponytail and chin. Just compiling for the minutes :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| ready to move on?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/selkit.t. woozl Selkit T. Woozl] 
| Fingers, toes, tail, ponytail, chin. Perhaps two additional hairbones or headpiece bones.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 15:59 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| Imagine jester's hats, or pigtails.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| eeehh
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| that would go more into custom skeleton territory I think
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| please. ... mvoe o
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| anyways
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| please * sobs*
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/selkit.t. woozl Selkit T. Woozl] 
| Mind you, if I keep disrupting things, I'll need a jester's hat of my own.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| Cloth Simulation (VWR-27189 - Cloth simulation) (continued from July 17, 2012's meeting) (Paola Tauber)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| there isn't much to add to this conversation that isn't really technical at this point
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 16:00 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/anouk.spot Anouk Spot] 
| that would be a beautiful dream come true if it happens
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| i would like to know if any of these proposals or ideas .... have a REAL place on the table , or are we meating like kids at a santas grota with our wish lists ?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/asha Asha] 
| How realistic is having cloth simulation in SL?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 16:01 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| oh some of these do have a real place on the table, it's more a matter of when most of the time
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| anyways, cloth could happen, it just depends on how much control people want over it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| if they just want a simple set of parameters, then that'd be trivial to add; if they want to paint how much of a mesh has cloth simulation applied, that'd take a bit more work
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 16:02 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/selkit.t. woozl Selkit T. Woozl] 
| I'd be all for having a weightmap, but... yeah. ;)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| we have a little over 10 more minutes left
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| if some of the features that we've discussed so far are implemented such as the deformer/ morph targets, is it likely that they could have an effect on the possibility of having something like cloth simulation in the future?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/selkit.t. woozl Selkit T. Woozl] 
| Simply defining flexible properties for a mesh along the lines of current flexiprims, would be shiny.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| in the future, possibly
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| as predefined morphs for cloth that have the simulation baked in
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 16:03 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| would help performance certainly
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oz.linden Oz Linden] 
| "likely that they could have an effect on the possibility of having something like " .... hmmm....
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| there's a lot of things that morph targets could do, but regardless, moving on not unless someone has ideas regarding cloth simulation workflow?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 16:04 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oz.linden Oz Linden] 
| I'm not sure what a positive response to that question would mean. Everything we do affects everything we might do in the future
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| well I mean if say in the future cloth simulation is a possibility but something tahts already implemented prevents that from happening
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/selkit.t. woozl Selkit T. Woozl] 
| I can think of two options for cloth simulation maps, but one would add bandwidth, the other would preclude other options, and... it's probably not the best topic for now. ;)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 16:05 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| I wouldn't worry too much about something getting in the way of cloth simulation
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| ok :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/angus.mesmer Angus Mesmer] 
| Some would say bumpmaps before cloth simulation.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| which (kind of) brings us to our next topic:
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| What are the chances of adding AO/dirt map support if a material project is accepted? Ashasekayi Ra 23:19, 22 July 2012 (PDT)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| first question: couldn't you bake these into your diffuse texture?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! a Materials question
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 16:06 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/asha Asha] 
| You can but...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| second question: what would be the overall use I'm overlooking?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oz.linden Oz Linden] 
| What is "AO/dirt map" ?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| O.o
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| an AO map is an Ambient Occlusion map
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| it stores an approximation of ambient lighting
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 16:07 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/finlay.macfanatic Finlay MacFanatic] 
| wrinkle picture
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oz.linden Oz Linden] 
| as opposed to Animation Overrider... I was pretty sure that wasn't it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| its actually created when one object creates shade by being in contact of close proximity with another
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| wherein objects that are blocking a sort of hemisphere cast soft shadows onto other objects consistently
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/asha Asha] 
| It would be nice to give the end user the ability to add their own small, seamless textures to an item while retaining the AO effect. Secondly, a designer can use much smaller maps and still retain visual crispness. Instead of a 1024 by 1024 map, I could used a 256 by 256 AO map and a 64 by 64 tile for example.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 16:08 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| *use
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| hm
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| that would be awesome
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| the general texture stack .... consistes of Defuse, Normal, Specular, Ao and dirt
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| well, for now I'll say "no", primarily because that's something that would fit into an overall much more flexible pipeline that would likely be years down the road
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 16:09 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/angus.mesmer Angus Mesmer] 
| in a world without alpha conflicts
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| so ..; no to materials ... but lets spend 2 weeks talkinbg about bones O.o .. niiiice
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| in terms of "immediate" options, it could be possible, and I'm not making a promise here so please do not take it as such
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oz.linden Oz Linden] 
| just to complete my ignorance... what's the "dirt" part?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/asha Asha] 
| What does alpha conflicts have to do with it?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| same idea Oz, just different terminology
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/oz.linden Oz Linden] 
| k
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 16:10 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| SL does have AO in the advanced lighting already
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| it could be possible whenever some magical possible maybe coming around by year's end solution could allow one to "select" what a texture's alpha map does, but I can't make any promises here one way or another
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 16:11 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| yet ... we disgussed at leanth last week maxes gradients ideas ?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| Braydon, it's not helpful :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| we're getting to materials
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/braydon.randt Braydon Randt] 
| forgive my frustration ....
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| there really isn't much to discuss about materials as of yet, and as I believe I've said previously, a proposal has been submitted, and I'll give you guys more news the moment I'm able to
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/asha Asha] 
| Yes, but that AO doesn't take away from the need of extra diffuse definition. Not to mention, everyone can turn on AO in the viewer.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| which includes if LL ever says no to materials :p
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/asha Asha] 
| *can't
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 16:13 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| so, next topic
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| The .dae schematic supports vertex colors. Would it be possible for a material/shader in SL to recognize vertex color assignments? If so, would it be possible to have a vertex color shader that lets you pick a blend mode, such as multiply or add? Ashasekayi Ra 23:19, 22 July 2012 (PDT)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| this would be neat for something like light mapping
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| well, per-vertex lightmapping
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/selkit.t. woozl Selkit T. Woozl] 
| :D
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 16:14 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| I'd say it could be possible in the future, but we'll see
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/selkit.t. woozl Selkit T. Woozl] 
| I can see other uses for vertex-color data reads, particularly touching back on the notion of greater diffuse definition.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| But I believe that ties into materials, again.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 16:15 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/asha Asha] 
| Yes exactly Selkit...that and lower grade lightmapping.
[16:15] Oz LindenOz Linden has to go up to dinner with the wife...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sachi.vixen sachi Vixen] 
| Enjoy your meal Oz
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| on that note, it's probably a good idea to wrap things up
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| Cheers Oz!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/selkit.t. woozl Selkit T. Woozl] 
| Way I figure it, we have vertex color data as an inbuilt feature, I see no reason not to keep options for using it open.
[16:15] Finlay MacFanaticFinlay MacFanatic waves..
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 16:16 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| thanks for coming Oz :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/asha Asha] 
| It would be great if it was an option.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 16:17 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| i'll take this opportunity to be extremely rude and add a topic that I didn't submit.. shift selecting multiple inventory items to edit their properties all at once!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| (yes i'll bring it up next week xD)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/selkit.t. woozl Selkit T. Woozl] 
| Elie?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| I could kiss you.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| hahaha
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/selkit.t. woozl Selkit T. Woozl] 
| We need that rather badly.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| not a bad idea
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| Yep!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| pop it in the agenda pls pls!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| once I know more about materials, I'll be sure to share :) and although I can't confirm if or when they are coming, I can say that a proposal has been submitted, and there's a good chance you will all see some news on it in the coming months
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| will do!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| in otherwords, stay tuned everyone!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| thats awesome geenz thanks!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 16:18 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/sachi.vixen sachi Vixen] 
| I want one of those Elie
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| is this topic more suitable for a jira?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"| 
| the mass edit properties?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| probably
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| 16:19 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/elie.spot Elie Spot] 
| ok i'll make a jira, and link to it on the agenda for next week then
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/geenz.spad Geenz Spad] 
| anyways, that's all for today's meeting, thank you everyone for coming!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/typhaon.nishi Typhaon Nishi] 
| cheers :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| 16:20 
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/selkit.t. woozl Selkit T. Woozl] 
| Cheers, boys, girls, and ephemeral clouds of particles
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/anouk.spot Anouk Spot] 
| have a good day all!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
|  
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[http://my.secondlife.com/siddean.munro Siddean Munro] 
| Thanks Geenz and all who came along :)
|}

Content Creation Improvement Informal User Group/Archive

2012-07-31T22:02:02Z

Geenz Spad:

Content Creation Improvement Informal User Group

2012-07-29T07:57:32Z

Geenz Spad:

Morph Target Community Proposal

2012-07-26T12:24:26Z

Geenz Spad: /* Proposed Initial Feature Set */

This page is to contain the overall community proposal for "Morph Targets".

Please do not add to this page without authorization from a co-chair or a co-chair's assistant from the Content Creation Improvement User Group first. Please discuss any relevant points in the discussion tab in the wiki.
==What is a Morph Target?==
A morph target, also known as a blend shape, or a shape key in some 3D applications, is a special kind of "vertex map" containing the positions of vertices in relation to their original position on a mesh. They are relatively easy to work with, only requiring the content creator to "sculpt" or otherwise move the vertices on their meshes to the positions they'd like for a morph target.

Most 3D applications support authoring morph targets, such as Luxology Modo, Autodesk 3ds Max, Autodesk Maya, and Blender. The Collada file format also supports morph targets.
===What are they used for?===
Most modern video games use morph targets for complex animations that would otherwise be hard to accomplish with skeletal animation, such as facial animation, and even things like character customization. The viewer its self actually uses morph targets to enable avatar customization already.
===Why do we need them?===
A a small list of examples of what they could be used for in the context of Second Life include:
* Complex facial animations on rigged meshes
* Additional ways for a user to customize the appearance of their avatar
* Animating the surface of a prim without the need to use a custom skeleton
* Fine grained control for content creators over how their clothing and avatars deform
There's a lot that can be achieved with morph targets, and this is just a small list of things that can be accomplished

==Caveats of Existing Techniques==
Existing techniques, such as RedPoly's proposed cBones technique and Qarl Fizz's Mesh Deformer, have their own disadvantages that morph targets are intended to either mitigate, or solve completely.

"cBones" as they're called, have the caveat of requiring content creators to rig many more bones than what would otherwise be necessary for simply animating a rigged mesh. It extends the workflow of rigging a mesh substantially into taking several hours of work; sometimes with a significant amount of trial and error. On top of that, a content creator sometimes is working "blind" with regards to what the final outcome will be in-world. This is not seen as an ideal workflow, as it increases the burden on content creators to produce this content. It does, however, provide more control over the deformation process, and is potentially faster than Qarl's mesh deformer.

Qarl's mesh deformer has the benefit, and caveat, of deforming a rigged mesh in accordance to the avatar's current shape automatically. The reason why some may see this as a caveat, is because this doesn't ensure correct deformation all the time. An example of where this may be undesirable can include custom mesh avatars, where the entire avatar mesh is replaced. A content creator may want to make their avatar's belly deform differently than the avatar mesh's belly does, or may want to have their avatar's breasts deform differently. This is a problem that morph targets could easily solve, by putting content creators in control of how a rigged mesh deforms. The mesh deformer also currently depends on the content creator making their content around a specific shape for it to work properly. Morph targets would lessen the need for this to some degree.
==Morph Target Advantages==
There are a few advantages of morph targets that existing solutions do not provide.
===Workflow===
Morph targets allow a content creator to literally "sculpt" how a morph target should appear, directly within their 3D application of choice. This gives them the ability to directly control over how a mesh "deforms" around the avatar, or in the context of rigged mesh replacement avatars, how an avatar "deforms". An ideal workflow would enable content creators to create a "morph map", a special vertex map in their 3D application of choice, and begin sculpting how that morph target should look in-world with respect to the associated avatar mesh morph target.

Each morph target currently should correspond to an existing morph target on the avatar mesh. Some examples include:
* Belly size
* Torso muscularity
* Saddle bags
* Body fat
* Breast size

There are already several pre-existing tools that can work with morph targets, and there's several ways morph targets can be tested. 3D modeling applications such as Autodesk Maya, Autodesk 3ds Max, and Luxology Modo all support morph targets out of the box, and the Collada file format also supports morph targets. One could effectively test different morph target combinations directly within their 3D modeling application of choice, or even existing game-engine toolsets. This would allow for content creators to rapidly iterate with their work, making adjustments on the fly with minimal slow down by cutting out the need to upload meshes to test their work.

Another workflow possibility is one could effectively "bake" the different potential morphs of a mesh, and simply tweak them until the content creator has the general effect they're looking for.
===Performance===
Morph targets do have some performance implications, however they're largely mitigable. Depending on the implementation, morph targets could have a very small performance impact that could be less than that of Qarl's deformer. This would mean more avatars could be in view using morph targets on more rigged meshes, enabling more people to experience the benefits of mesh clothing that fits properly.

Furthermore, morph targets could some day become an optimization to Qarl's deformer by precalculating the morph targets for a mesh on import. This would provide the potential performance benefits that morph targets provide, while still enabling an automatic solution for content creators to make use of.

==Morph Target Disadvantages==
Morph targets are not entirely a perfect solution. There are a few notable disadvantages relating to bandwidth usage, and potential workflow disadvantages relating to specific implementations.
===Bandwidth===
Morph targets require additional information to be encoded either within a mesh, or within a texture. This means that additional bandwidth will be required to transmit any mesh with morph targets.

The bandwidth cost could be mitigated by either determining what vertices have a "similar" position across different morph targets and simply reusing those values, by only including a partial vertex map for the morph target by excluding vertices that don't have unique positions in the vertex map, or by even using textures that can be loaded progressively.

The amount of bandwidth required to support morph targets will vary depending on the implementation approach taken.
===Workflow===
Although the workflow is largely more streamlined than that of rigging a mesh, it does require content creators learn how to efficiently create morph targets. This will vary largely upon the implementation approach taken to support morph targets on Second Life.
==Implementation Approaches==
There are a few possible implementation approaches. They each of their advantages and disadvantages associated with them.
===Vector Displacement Maps===
A vector displacement map encodes the positional information for a given vertex on a mesh. They can operate with relatively low overhead, and can be accessed through a vertex shader to displace an object's vertices. They can also be "baked" and transmitted to other viewers after a morph has been finalized. They're also capable of working with or without tessellation, and can operate reasonably well at lower resolutions.
====Advantages====
They would also benefit from progressive loading, and could effectively function as a regular texture on the asset backend. Being regular images effectively means they can also take advantage of image compression.

They can also be used on practically any prim face as well, potentially paving the path towards a general purpose solution in the future for assigning morph targets to standard primitives, and virtually any arbitrary mesh in-world furthering the overall customization of in-world content.
====Disadvantages====
The primary disadvantage to this technique, would be the ability to "copy" the content without the creator's permission by simply using the UUID to the VDM.
====Workflow====
The VDM workflow could be largely transparent to content creators, by creating them on mesh upload.
====Implementation====
A VDM would be applied to the surface of a mesh, or a prim, through a special set of parameters. Multiple VDMs should be supported for morph targets, each one having a parameter that controls the strength of the morph.

Either the viewer could create an interpolated VDM on the CPU which would then be uploaded to the GPU for displacing a surface's vertices, or it could be a CPU-bound process wherein the VDMs are interpolated and applied to a surface's vertices.

===Vertex Map Pruning===
Vertex map pruning could work by storing a "common" position look up table that's derived from the mesh's morph targets. Each common position could be determined by comparing vertex positions within a given threshold, and positions that are similar are averaged and added to the lookup table. This entire process would be completely transparent to the content creator, and would be determined at import.
====Advantages====
This would help mitigate the bandwidth concerns, while also mitigating content theft concerns as meshes are not currently trivial to "copybot".
====Disadvantages====
The downside would be that this requires extensions to the mesh format that could create problems for older viewers that wouldn't support the new morph target functionality. Fallback mechanisms may need to be devised to ensure backwards compatibility. Performance may also become an issue, but ways to mitigate it is to expose a single vertex map to the GPU that contains interpolated vertex positions, from which the GPU can apply within a vertex program better enabling hardware acceleration on a wider range of hardware.
====Workflow====
As with VDMs, vertex map pruning would be transparent to content creators since much of the process would be done at import (meaning content creators will not need to know how to "prune" a morph target's vertices; just that they will be pruned within a given threshold).
====Implementation====
There are a few ways this could potentially be implemented, but the simplest would be to have a look up table of common vertex positions derived from the mesh's morph maps, with each reference to this look up table being a 16-bit index that corresponds to the appropriate location within the lookup table.

===Deformer Extensions===
Morph extensions could be thought of as a partial implementation of morph targets specifically for use in combination with Qarl's deformer. This would be a blend between Qarl's mesh deformer, and vertex map pruning.

The idea behind this is to define unique vertex positions that would then be encoded into a vertex map on the mesh, much like how morph targets work in general. The defining factor however, is the mesh deformer would do the majority of the deformation, with the morph target only containing the vertex positions that otherwise wouldn't be included if the content creator were to just rely on the mesh deformer.

Deformer extensions could be calculated upon upload, using the mesh deformer to help determine which portions of the morph targets to discard in the process.
====Advantages====
This could be seen as a partial solution, and potentially has the highest level of bandwidth mitigation, while still retaining some of the control that full morph targets would give content creators.
====Disadvantages====
The biggest disadvantage with this would primarily involve educating content creators how to create morph targets that would yield the best results with this method.
====Workflow====
The workflow for deformer extensions has the potential to get tedious. Content creators would have to know how the deformer would deform their content, and plan their morph targets accordingly. Although it has the ability to cut down on the amount of bandwidth needed for morph targets, the workflow may be untenable for content creators.
====Implementation====
Deformer extensions would effectively blend one of the two previous options with Qarl's mesh deformer. Using vertex map pruning, the majority of the morph target would reference the same exact vertex position within the common position look up table. A new set of parameters that get transmitted with rigged meshes that controls the overall morph target value would accompany an avatar's shape texture which would then control how much a morph is applied. A reference position could also be encoded for each morph target as well, allowing the viewer to decide how far a rigged mesh's vertices should extend before a given morph is applied, reducing the need to transmit additional parameters.

==Proposed Initial Feature Set==
Since the initial release of morph targets would be geared towards fashion and avatar designers, the initial version should primarily have features that appeal to those people. As such, here is the proposed initial feature set for a version one release:
* Import of morph targets within a Collada file
* Application of morph targets on a worn rigged mesh
* Support for existing shape parameters (i.e., a morph target named "saddle_bags" in a mesh would correspond to the saddle bag shape parameter)

==Conclusion==
TBD

Content Creation Improvement Informal User Group

2012-07-23T21:45:35Z

Geenz Spad:

{{Oz/User Group Page
|purpose=
User group for improving content creation on Second Life either through creating new features, or enhancing existing features.
All topics relating to the improvement of content creation, whether it's adding new features or improving existing features, are valid topics for discussion. When in doubt about whether or not a topic is appropriate, contact Geenz Spad.

Priority is given to topics in the order they are posted, and those that are relevant to the meetings.
|date-time=
Every Tuesday 03:00-04:15 PM SLT
|location={{SLurl|region=Hippotropolis|x=118|y=110|z=31|title=Hippotropolis Auditorium}}
|team=Chaired by [[User:Geenz Spad|Geenz Spad]], [[User:Siddean Munro|Siddean Munro]]. Linden Liason: [[User:Oz Linden|Oz Linden]].
|agenda=
# Content Creation Related JIRA Issue Discussion [[User:Geenz Spad|Geenz Spad]]

# Discussing [[Morph_Target_Community_Proposal]]. (continued from July 17, 2012's meeting) ([[User:Siddean Munro|Siddean Munro]])
# Build floater improvement discussion (continued from July 17, 2012's meeting) [[User:Geenz Spad|Geenz Spad]]
# "Extended" skeleton for rigged meshes proposal discussion (continued from July 17, 2012's meeting) [[User:Geenz Spad|Geenz Spad]] 14:28, 16 July 2012 (PDT)
# Cloth Simulation ({{JiraIssue|VWR-27189| - Cloth simulation}}) (continued from July 17, 2012's meeting) ([[User:Paola Tauber|Paola Tauber]])
# What are the chances of adding AO/dirt map support if a material project is accepted? [[User:Ashasekayi Ra|Ashasekayi Ra]] 23:19, 22 July 2012 (PDT)
# The .dae schematic supports vertex colors. Would it be possible for a material/shader in SL to recognize vertex color assignments? If so, would it be possible to have a vertex color shader that lets you pick a blend mode, such as multiply or add? [[User:Ashasekayi Ra|Ashasekayi Ra]] 23:19, 22 July 2012 (PDT)

}}

Content Creation Improvement Informal User Group

2012-07-23T21:44:58Z

Geenz Spad:

{{Oz/User Group Page
|purpose=
User group for improving content creation on Second Life either through creating new features, or enhancing existing features.
All topics relating to the improvement of content creation, whether it's adding new features or improving existing features, are valid topics for discussion. When in doubt about whether or not a topic is appropriate, contact Geenz Spad.

Priority is given to topics in the order they are posted, and those that are relevant to the meetings.
|date-time=
Every Tuesday 03:00-04:15 PM SLT
|location={{SLurl|region=Hippotropolis|x=118|y=110|z=31|title=Hippotropolis Auditorium}}
|team=Chaired by [[User:Geenz Spad|Geenz Spad]], [[User:Siddean Munro|Siddean Munro]]. Linden Liason: [[User:Oz Linden|Oz Linden]].
|agenda=
# Content Creation Related JIRA Issue Discussion (every meeting, first 15 minutes) [[User:Geenz Spad|Geenz Spad]]

# Discussing [[Morph_Target_Community_Proposal]]. (continued from July 17, 2012's meeting) ([[User:Siddean Munro|Siddean Munro]])
# Build floater improvement discussion (continued from July 17, 2012's meeting) [[User:Geenz Spad|Geenz Spad]]
# "Extended" skeleton for rigged meshes proposal discussion (continued from July 17, 2012's meeting) [[User:Geenz Spad|Geenz Spad]] 14:28, 16 July 2012 (PDT)
# Cloth Simulation ({{JiraIssue|VWR-27189| - Cloth simulation}}) (continued from July 17, 2012's meeting) ([[User:Paola Tauber|Paola Tauber]])
# What are the chances of adding AO/dirt map support if a material project is accepted? [[User:Ashasekayi Ra|Ashasekayi Ra]] 23:19, 22 July 2012 (PDT)
# The .dae schematic supports vertex colors. Would it be possible for a material/shader in SL to recognize vertex color assignments? If so, would it be possible to have a vertex color shader that lets you pick a blend mode, such as multiply or add? [[User:Ashasekayi Ra|Ashasekayi Ra]] 23:19, 22 July 2012 (PDT)

}}

Morph Target Community Proposal

2012-07-23T21:41:39Z

Geenz Spad: /* Deformer Extensions */

This page is to contain the overall community proposal for "Morph Targets".

Please do not add to this page without authorization from a co-chair or a co-chair's assistant from the Content Creation Improvement User Group first. Please discuss any relevant points in the discussion tab in the wiki.
==What is a Morph Target?==
A morph target, also known as a blend shape, or a shape key in some 3D applications, is a special kind of "vertex map" containing the positions of vertices in relation to their original position on a mesh. They are relatively easy to work with, only requiring the content creator to "sculpt" or otherwise move the vertices on their meshes to the positions they'd like for a morph target.

Most 3D applications support authoring morph targets, such as Luxology Modo, Autodesk 3ds Max, Autodesk Maya, and Blender. The Collada file format also supports morph targets.
===What are they used for?===
Most modern video games use morph targets for complex animations that would otherwise be hard to accomplish with skeletal animation, such as facial animation, and even things like character customization. The viewer its self actually uses morph targets to enable avatar customization already.
===Why do we need them?===
A a small list of examples of what they could be used for in the context of Second Life include:
* Complex facial animations on rigged meshes
* Additional ways for a user to customize the appearance of their avatar
* Animating the surface of a prim without the need to use a custom skeleton
* Fine grained control for content creators over how their clothing and avatars deform
There's a lot that can be achieved with morph targets, and this is just a small list of things that can be accomplished

==Caveats of Existing Techniques==
Existing techniques, such as RedPoly's proposed cBones technique and Qarl Fizz's Mesh Deformer, have their own disadvantages that morph targets are intended to either mitigate, or solve completely.

"cBones" as they're called, have the caveat of requiring content creators to rig many more bones than what would otherwise be necessary for simply animating a rigged mesh. It extends the workflow of rigging a mesh substantially into taking several hours of work; sometimes with a significant amount of trial and error. On top of that, a content creator sometimes is working "blind" with regards to what the final outcome will be in-world. This is not seen as an ideal workflow, as it increases the burden on content creators to produce this content. It does, however, provide more control over the deformation process, and is potentially faster than Qarl's mesh deformer.

Qarl's mesh deformer has the benefit, and caveat, of deforming a rigged mesh in accordance to the avatar's current shape automatically. The reason why some may see this as a caveat, is because this doesn't ensure correct deformation all the time. An example of where this may be undesirable can include custom mesh avatars, where the entire avatar mesh is replaced. A content creator may want to make their avatar's belly deform differently than the avatar mesh's belly does, or may want to have their avatar's breasts deform differently. This is a problem that morph targets could easily solve, by putting content creators in control of how a rigged mesh deforms. The mesh deformer also currently depends on the content creator making their content around a specific shape for it to work properly. Morph targets would lessen the need for this to some degree.
==Morph Target Advantages==
There are a few advantages of morph targets that existing solutions do not provide.
===Workflow===
Morph targets allow a content creator to literally "sculpt" how a morph target should appear, directly within their 3D application of choice. This gives them the ability to directly control over how a mesh "deforms" around the avatar, or in the context of rigged mesh replacement avatars, how an avatar "deforms". An ideal workflow would enable content creators to create a "morph map", a special vertex map in their 3D application of choice, and begin sculpting how that morph target should look in-world with respect to the associated avatar mesh morph target.

Each morph target currently should correspond to an existing morph target on the avatar mesh. Some examples include:
* Belly size
* Torso muscularity
* Saddle bags
* Body fat
* Breast size

There are already several pre-existing tools that can work with morph targets, and there's several ways morph targets can be tested. 3D modeling applications such as Autodesk Maya, Autodesk 3ds Max, and Luxology Modo all support morph targets out of the box, and the Collada file format also supports morph targets. One could effectively test different morph target combinations directly within their 3D modeling application of choice, or even existing game-engine toolsets. This would allow for content creators to rapidly iterate with their work, making adjustments on the fly with minimal slow down by cutting out the need to upload meshes to test their work.

Another workflow possibility is one could effectively "bake" the different potential morphs of a mesh, and simply tweak them until the content creator has the general effect they're looking for.
===Performance===
Morph targets do have some performance implications, however they're largely mitigable. Depending on the implementation, morph targets could have a very small performance impact that could be less than that of Qarl's deformer. This would mean more avatars could be in view using morph targets on more rigged meshes, enabling more people to experience the benefits of mesh clothing that fits properly.

Furthermore, morph targets could some day become an optimization to Qarl's deformer by precalculating the morph targets for a mesh on import. This would provide the potential performance benefits that morph targets provide, while still enabling an automatic solution for content creators to make use of.

==Morph Target Disadvantages==
Morph targets are not entirely a perfect solution. There are a few notable disadvantages relating to bandwidth usage, and potential workflow disadvantages relating to specific implementations.
===Bandwidth===
Morph targets require additional information to be encoded either within a mesh, or within a texture. This means that additional bandwidth will be required to transmit any mesh with morph targets.

The bandwidth cost could be mitigated by either determining what vertices have a "similar" position across different morph targets and simply reusing those values, by only including a partial vertex map for the morph target by excluding vertices that don't have unique positions in the vertex map, or by even using textures that can be loaded progressively.

The amount of bandwidth required to support morph targets will vary depending on the implementation approach taken.
===Workflow===
Although the workflow is largely more streamlined than that of rigging a mesh, it does require content creators learn how to efficiently create morph targets. This will vary largely upon the implementation approach taken to support morph targets on Second Life.
==Implementation Approaches==
There are a few possible implementation approaches. They each of their advantages and disadvantages associated with them.
===Vector Displacement Maps===
A vector displacement map encodes the positional information for a given vertex on a mesh. They can operate with relatively low overhead, and can be accessed through a vertex shader to displace an object's vertices. They can also be "baked" and transmitted to other viewers after a morph has been finalized. They're also capable of working with or without tessellation, and can operate reasonably well at lower resolutions.
====Advantages====
They would also benefit from progressive loading, and could effectively function as a regular texture on the asset backend. Being regular images effectively means they can also take advantage of image compression.

They can also be used on practically any prim face as well, potentially paving the path towards a general purpose solution in the future for assigning morph targets to standard primitives, and virtually any arbitrary mesh in-world furthering the overall customization of in-world content.
====Disadvantages====
The primary disadvantage to this technique, would be the ability to "copy" the content without the creator's permission by simply using the UUID to the VDM.
====Workflow====
The VDM workflow could be largely transparent to content creators, by creating them on mesh upload.
====Implementation====
A VDM would be applied to the surface of a mesh, or a prim, through a special set of parameters. Multiple VDMs should be supported for morph targets, each one having a parameter that controls the strength of the morph.

Either the viewer could create an interpolated VDM on the CPU which would then be uploaded to the GPU for displacing a surface's vertices, or it could be a CPU-bound process wherein the VDMs are interpolated and applied to a surface's vertices.

===Vertex Map Pruning===
Vertex map pruning could work by storing a "common" position look up table that's derived from the mesh's morph targets. Each common position could be determined by comparing vertex positions within a given threshold, and positions that are similar are averaged and added to the lookup table. This entire process would be completely transparent to the content creator, and would be determined at import.
====Advantages====
This would help mitigate the bandwidth concerns, while also mitigating content theft concerns as meshes are not currently trivial to "copybot".
====Disadvantages====
The downside would be that this requires extensions to the mesh format that could create problems for older viewers that wouldn't support the new morph target functionality. Fallback mechanisms may need to be devised to ensure backwards compatibility. Performance may also become an issue, but ways to mitigate it is to expose a single vertex map to the GPU that contains interpolated vertex positions, from which the GPU can apply within a vertex program better enabling hardware acceleration on a wider range of hardware.
====Workflow====
As with VDMs, vertex map pruning would be transparent to content creators since much of the process would be done at import (meaning content creators will not need to know how to "prune" a morph target's vertices; just that they will be pruned within a given threshold).
====Implementation====
There are a few ways this could potentially be implemented, but the simplest would be to have a look up table of common vertex positions derived from the mesh's morph maps, with each reference to this look up table being a 16-bit index that corresponds to the appropriate location within the lookup table.

===Deformer Extensions===
Morph extensions could be thought of as a partial implementation of morph targets specifically for use in combination with Qarl's deformer. This would be a blend between Qarl's mesh deformer, and vertex map pruning.

The idea behind this is to define unique vertex positions that would then be encoded into a vertex map on the mesh, much like how morph targets work in general. The defining factor however, is the mesh deformer would do the majority of the deformation, with the morph target only containing the vertex positions that otherwise wouldn't be included if the content creator were to just rely on the mesh deformer.

Deformer extensions could be calculated upon upload, using the mesh deformer to help determine which portions of the morph targets to discard in the process.
====Advantages====
This could be seen as a partial solution, and potentially has the highest level of bandwidth mitigation, while still retaining some of the control that full morph targets would give content creators.
====Disadvantages====
The biggest disadvantage with this would primarily involve educating content creators how to create morph targets that would yield the best results with this method.
====Workflow====
The workflow for deformer extensions has the potential to get tedious. Content creators would have to know how the deformer would deform their content, and plan their morph targets accordingly. Although it has the ability to cut down on the amount of bandwidth needed for morph targets, the workflow may be untenable for content creators.
====Implementation====
Deformer extensions would effectively blend one of the two previous options with Qarl's mesh deformer. Using vertex map pruning, the majority of the morph target would reference the same exact vertex position within the common position look up table. A new set of parameters that get transmitted with rigged meshes that controls the overall morph target value would accompany an avatar's shape texture which would then control how much a morph is applied. A reference position could also be encoded for each morph target as well, allowing the viewer to decide how far a rigged mesh's vertices should extend before a given morph is applied, reducing the need to transmit additional parameters.

==Proposed Initial Feature Set==
TBD
==Conclusion==
TBD

Morph Target Community Proposal

2012-07-23T21:36:43Z

Geenz Spad: /* Vertex Map Pruning */

This page is to contain the overall community proposal for "Morph Targets".

Please do not add to this page without authorization from a co-chair or a co-chair's assistant from the Content Creation Improvement User Group first. Please discuss any relevant points in the discussion tab in the wiki.
==What is a Morph Target?==
A morph target, also known as a blend shape, or a shape key in some 3D applications, is a special kind of "vertex map" containing the positions of vertices in relation to their original position on a mesh. They are relatively easy to work with, only requiring the content creator to "sculpt" or otherwise move the vertices on their meshes to the positions they'd like for a morph target.

Most 3D applications support authoring morph targets, such as Luxology Modo, Autodesk 3ds Max, Autodesk Maya, and Blender. The Collada file format also supports morph targets.
===What are they used for?===
Most modern video games use morph targets for complex animations that would otherwise be hard to accomplish with skeletal animation, such as facial animation, and even things like character customization. The viewer its self actually uses morph targets to enable avatar customization already.
===Why do we need them?===
A a small list of examples of what they could be used for in the context of Second Life include:
* Complex facial animations on rigged meshes
* Additional ways for a user to customize the appearance of their avatar
* Animating the surface of a prim without the need to use a custom skeleton
* Fine grained control for content creators over how their clothing and avatars deform
There's a lot that can be achieved with morph targets, and this is just a small list of things that can be accomplished

==Caveats of Existing Techniques==
Existing techniques, such as RedPoly's proposed cBones technique and Qarl Fizz's Mesh Deformer, have their own disadvantages that morph targets are intended to either mitigate, or solve completely.

"cBones" as they're called, have the caveat of requiring content creators to rig many more bones than what would otherwise be necessary for simply animating a rigged mesh. It extends the workflow of rigging a mesh substantially into taking several hours of work; sometimes with a significant amount of trial and error. On top of that, a content creator sometimes is working "blind" with regards to what the final outcome will be in-world. This is not seen as an ideal workflow, as it increases the burden on content creators to produce this content. It does, however, provide more control over the deformation process, and is potentially faster than Qarl's mesh deformer.

Qarl's mesh deformer has the benefit, and caveat, of deforming a rigged mesh in accordance to the avatar's current shape automatically. The reason why some may see this as a caveat, is because this doesn't ensure correct deformation all the time. An example of where this may be undesirable can include custom mesh avatars, where the entire avatar mesh is replaced. A content creator may want to make their avatar's belly deform differently than the avatar mesh's belly does, or may want to have their avatar's breasts deform differently. This is a problem that morph targets could easily solve, by putting content creators in control of how a rigged mesh deforms. The mesh deformer also currently depends on the content creator making their content around a specific shape for it to work properly. Morph targets would lessen the need for this to some degree.
==Morph Target Advantages==
There are a few advantages of morph targets that existing solutions do not provide.
===Workflow===
Morph targets allow a content creator to literally "sculpt" how a morph target should appear, directly within their 3D application of choice. This gives them the ability to directly control over how a mesh "deforms" around the avatar, or in the context of rigged mesh replacement avatars, how an avatar "deforms". An ideal workflow would enable content creators to create a "morph map", a special vertex map in their 3D application of choice, and begin sculpting how that morph target should look in-world with respect to the associated avatar mesh morph target.

Each morph target currently should correspond to an existing morph target on the avatar mesh. Some examples include:
* Belly size
* Torso muscularity
* Saddle bags
* Body fat
* Breast size

There are already several pre-existing tools that can work with morph targets, and there's several ways morph targets can be tested. 3D modeling applications such as Autodesk Maya, Autodesk 3ds Max, and Luxology Modo all support morph targets out of the box, and the Collada file format also supports morph targets. One could effectively test different morph target combinations directly within their 3D modeling application of choice, or even existing game-engine toolsets. This would allow for content creators to rapidly iterate with their work, making adjustments on the fly with minimal slow down by cutting out the need to upload meshes to test their work.

Another workflow possibility is one could effectively "bake" the different potential morphs of a mesh, and simply tweak them until the content creator has the general effect they're looking for.
===Performance===
Morph targets do have some performance implications, however they're largely mitigable. Depending on the implementation, morph targets could have a very small performance impact that could be less than that of Qarl's deformer. This would mean more avatars could be in view using morph targets on more rigged meshes, enabling more people to experience the benefits of mesh clothing that fits properly.

Furthermore, morph targets could some day become an optimization to Qarl's deformer by precalculating the morph targets for a mesh on import. This would provide the potential performance benefits that morph targets provide, while still enabling an automatic solution for content creators to make use of.

==Morph Target Disadvantages==
Morph targets are not entirely a perfect solution. There are a few notable disadvantages relating to bandwidth usage, and potential workflow disadvantages relating to specific implementations.
===Bandwidth===
Morph targets require additional information to be encoded either within a mesh, or within a texture. This means that additional bandwidth will be required to transmit any mesh with morph targets.

The bandwidth cost could be mitigated by either determining what vertices have a "similar" position across different morph targets and simply reusing those values, by only including a partial vertex map for the morph target by excluding vertices that don't have unique positions in the vertex map, or by even using textures that can be loaded progressively.

The amount of bandwidth required to support morph targets will vary depending on the implementation approach taken.
===Workflow===
Although the workflow is largely more streamlined than that of rigging a mesh, it does require content creators learn how to efficiently create morph targets. This will vary largely upon the implementation approach taken to support morph targets on Second Life.
==Implementation Approaches==
There are a few possible implementation approaches. They each of their advantages and disadvantages associated with them.
===Vector Displacement Maps===
A vector displacement map encodes the positional information for a given vertex on a mesh. They can operate with relatively low overhead, and can be accessed through a vertex shader to displace an object's vertices. They can also be "baked" and transmitted to other viewers after a morph has been finalized. They're also capable of working with or without tessellation, and can operate reasonably well at lower resolutions.
====Advantages====
They would also benefit from progressive loading, and could effectively function as a regular texture on the asset backend. Being regular images effectively means they can also take advantage of image compression.

They can also be used on practically any prim face as well, potentially paving the path towards a general purpose solution in the future for assigning morph targets to standard primitives, and virtually any arbitrary mesh in-world furthering the overall customization of in-world content.
====Disadvantages====
The primary disadvantage to this technique, would be the ability to "copy" the content without the creator's permission by simply using the UUID to the VDM.
====Workflow====
The VDM workflow could be largely transparent to content creators, by creating them on mesh upload.
====Implementation====
A VDM would be applied to the surface of a mesh, or a prim, through a special set of parameters. Multiple VDMs should be supported for morph targets, each one having a parameter that controls the strength of the morph.

Either the viewer could create an interpolated VDM on the CPU which would then be uploaded to the GPU for displacing a surface's vertices, or it could be a CPU-bound process wherein the VDMs are interpolated and applied to a surface's vertices.

===Vertex Map Pruning===
Vertex map pruning could work by storing a "common" position look up table that's derived from the mesh's morph targets. Each common position could be determined by comparing vertex positions within a given threshold, and positions that are similar are averaged and added to the lookup table. This entire process would be completely transparent to the content creator, and would be determined at import.
====Advantages====
This would help mitigate the bandwidth concerns, while also mitigating content theft concerns as meshes are not currently trivial to "copybot".
====Disadvantages====
The downside would be that this requires extensions to the mesh format that could create problems for older viewers that wouldn't support the new morph target functionality. Fallback mechanisms may need to be devised to ensure backwards compatibility. Performance may also become an issue, but ways to mitigate it is to expose a single vertex map to the GPU that contains interpolated vertex positions, from which the GPU can apply within a vertex program better enabling hardware acceleration on a wider range of hardware.
====Workflow====
As with VDMs, vertex map pruning would be transparent to content creators since much of the process would be done at import (meaning content creators will not need to know how to "prune" a morph target's vertices; just that they will be pruned within a given threshold).
====Implementation====
There are a few ways this could potentially be implemented, but the simplest would be to have a look up table of common vertex positions derived from the mesh's morph maps, with each reference to this look up table being a 16-bit index that corresponds to the appropriate location within the lookup table.

===Deformer Extensions===
Morph extensions could be thought of as a partial implementation of morph targets specifically for use in combination with Qarl's deformer. This would be a blend between Qarl's mesh deformer, and vertex map pruning.

The idea behind this is to define unique vertex positions that would then be encoded into a vertex map on the mesh, much like how morph targets work in general. The defining factor however, is the mesh deformer would do the majority of the deformation, with the morph target only containing the vertex positions that otherwise wouldn't be included if the content creator were to just rely on the mesh deformer.

Deformer extensions could be calculated upon upload, using the mesh deformer to help determine which portions of the morph targets to discard in the process.
====Advantages====
This could be seen as a partial solution, and potentially has the highest level of bandwidth mitigation, while still retaining some of the control that full morph targets would give content creators.
====Disadvantages====
The biggest disadvantage with this would primarily involve educating content creators how to create morph targets that would yield the best results with this method.
====Workflow====
The workflow for deformer extensions has the potential to get tedious. Content creators would have to know how the deformer would deform their content, and plan their morph targets accordingly. Although it has the ability to cut down on the amount of bandwidth needed for morph targets, the workflow may be untenable for content creators.

==Proposed Initial Feature Set==
TBD
==Conclusion==
TBD

Morph Target Community Proposal

2012-07-22T07:23:41Z

Geenz Spad: /* Vector Displacement Maps */

This page is to contain the overall community proposal for "Morph Targets".

Please do not add to this page without authorization from a co-chair or a co-chair's assistant from the Content Creation Improvement User Group first. Please discuss any relevant points in the discussion tab in the wiki.
==What is a Morph Target?==
A morph target, also known as a blend shape, or a shape key in some 3D applications, is a special kind of "vertex map" containing the positions of vertices in relation to their original position on a mesh. They are relatively easy to work with, only requiring the content creator to "sculpt" or otherwise move the vertices on their meshes to the positions they'd like for a morph target.

Most 3D applications support authoring morph targets, such as Luxology Modo, Autodesk 3ds Max, Autodesk Maya, and Blender. The Collada file format also supports morph targets.
===What are they used for?===
Most modern video games use morph targets for complex animations that would otherwise be hard to accomplish with skeletal animation, such as facial animation, and even things like character customization. The viewer its self actually uses morph targets to enable avatar customization already.
===Why do we need them?===
A a small list of examples of what they could be used for in the context of Second Life include:
* Complex facial animations on rigged meshes
* Additional ways for a user to customize the appearance of their avatar
* Animating the surface of a prim without the need to use a custom skeleton
* Fine grained control for content creators over how their clothing and avatars deform
There's a lot that can be achieved with morph targets, and this is just a small list of things that can be accomplished

==Caveats of Existing Techniques==
Existing techniques, such as RedPoly's proposed cBones technique and Qarl Fizz's Mesh Deformer, have their own disadvantages that morph targets are intended to either mitigate, or solve completely.

"cBones" as they're called, have the caveat of requiring content creators to rig many more bones than what would otherwise be necessary for simply animating a rigged mesh. It extends the workflow of rigging a mesh substantially into taking several hours of work; sometimes with a significant amount of trial and error. On top of that, a content creator sometimes is working "blind" with regards to what the final outcome will be in-world. This is not seen as an ideal workflow, as it increases the burden on content creators to produce this content. It does, however, provide more control over the deformation process, and is potentially faster than Qarl's mesh deformer.

Qarl's mesh deformer has the benefit, and caveat, of deforming a rigged mesh in accordance to the avatar's current shape automatically. The reason why some may see this as a caveat, is because this doesn't ensure correct deformation all the time. An example of where this may be undesirable can include custom mesh avatars, where the entire avatar mesh is replaced. A content creator may want to make their avatar's belly deform differently than the avatar mesh's belly does, or may want to have their avatar's breasts deform differently. This is a problem that morph targets could easily solve, by putting content creators in control of how a rigged mesh deforms. The mesh deformer also currently depends on the content creator making their content around a specific shape for it to work properly. Morph targets would lessen the need for this to some degree.
==Morph Target Advantages==
There are a few advantages of morph targets that existing solutions do not provide.
===Workflow===
Morph targets allow a content creator to literally "sculpt" how a morph target should appear, directly within their 3D application of choice. This gives them the ability to directly control over how a mesh "deforms" around the avatar, or in the context of rigged mesh replacement avatars, how an avatar "deforms". An ideal workflow would enable content creators to create a "morph map", a special vertex map in their 3D application of choice, and begin sculpting how that morph target should look in-world with respect to the associated avatar mesh morph target.

Each morph target currently should correspond to an existing morph target on the avatar mesh. Some examples include:
* Belly size
* Torso muscularity
* Saddle bags
* Body fat
* Breast size

There are already several pre-existing tools that can work with morph targets, and there's several ways morph targets can be tested. 3D modeling applications such as Autodesk Maya, Autodesk 3ds Max, and Luxology Modo all support morph targets out of the box, and the Collada file format also supports morph targets. One could effectively test different morph target combinations directly within their 3D modeling application of choice, or even existing game-engine toolsets. This would allow for content creators to rapidly iterate with their work, making adjustments on the fly with minimal slow down by cutting out the need to upload meshes to test their work.

Another workflow possibility is one could effectively "bake" the different potential morphs of a mesh, and simply tweak them until the content creator has the general effect they're looking for.
===Performance===
Morph targets do have some performance implications, however they're largely mitigable. Depending on the implementation, morph targets could have a very small performance impact that could be less than that of Qarl's deformer. This would mean more avatars could be in view using morph targets on more rigged meshes, enabling more people to experience the benefits of mesh clothing that fits properly.

Furthermore, morph targets could some day become an optimization to Qarl's deformer by precalculating the morph targets for a mesh on import. This would provide the potential performance benefits that morph targets provide, while still enabling an automatic solution for content creators to make use of.

==Morph Target Disadvantages==
Morph targets are not entirely a perfect solution. There are a few notable disadvantages relating to bandwidth usage, and potential workflow disadvantages relating to specific implementations.
===Bandwidth===
Morph targets require additional information to be encoded either within a mesh, or within a texture. This means that additional bandwidth will be required to transmit any mesh with morph targets.

The bandwidth cost could be mitigated by either determining what vertices have a "similar" position across different morph targets and simply reusing those values, by only including a partial vertex map for the morph target by excluding vertices that don't have unique positions in the vertex map, or by even using textures that can be loaded progressively.

The amount of bandwidth required to support morph targets will vary depending on the implementation approach taken.
===Workflow===
Although the workflow is largely more streamlined than that of rigging a mesh, it does require content creators learn how to efficiently create morph targets. This will vary largely upon the implementation approach taken to support morph targets on Second Life.
==Implementation Approaches==
There are a few possible implementation approaches. They each of their advantages and disadvantages associated with them.
===Vector Displacement Maps===
A vector displacement map encodes the positional information for a given vertex on a mesh. They can operate with relatively low overhead, and can be accessed through a vertex shader to displace an object's vertices. They can also be "baked" and transmitted to other viewers after a morph has been finalized. They're also capable of working with or without tessellation, and can operate reasonably well at lower resolutions.
====Advantages====
They would also benefit from progressive loading, and could effectively function as a regular texture on the asset backend. Being regular images effectively means they can also take advantage of image compression.

They can also be used on practically any prim face as well, potentially paving the path towards a general purpose solution in the future for assigning morph targets to standard primitives, and virtually any arbitrary mesh in-world furthering the overall customization of in-world content.
====Disadvantages====
The primary disadvantage to this technique, would be the ability to "copy" the content without the creator's permission by simply using the UUID to the VDM.
====Workflow====
The VDM workflow could be largely transparent to content creators, by creating them on mesh upload.
====Implementation====
A VDM would be applied to the surface of a mesh, or a prim, through a special set of parameters. Multiple VDMs should be supported for morph targets, each one having a parameter that controls the strength of the morph.

Either the viewer could create an interpolated VDM on the CPU which would then be uploaded to the GPU for displacing a surface's vertices, or it could be a CPU-bound process wherein the VDMs are interpolated and applied to a surface's vertices.

===Vertex Map Pruning===
Vertex map pruning would work by comparing the vertices in a morph target's values against the original positions of the associated positions of the vertices on the mesh. If they're within a particular threshold, those vertices could be discarded from the vertex map. An extension of this method could be to create a list of "similar" vertex positions, and having an optimization process in place that will "link" similar vertices across the vertex maps based upon their position.
====Advantages====
This would help mitigate the bandwidth concerns, while also mitigating content theft concerns as meshes are not currently trivial to "copybot".
====Disadvantages====
The downside would be that this requires extensions to the mesh format that could create problems for older viewers that wouldn't support the new morph target functionality. Fallback mechanisms may need to be devised to ensure backwards compatibility. Performance may also become an issue, but ways to mitigate it is to expose a single vertex map to the GPU that contains interpolated vertex positions, from which the GPU can apply within a vertex program better enabling hardware acceleration on a wider range of hardware.
====Workflow====
As with VDMs, vertex map pruning would be transparent to content creators since only vertices that have unique positions would be included in the uploaded mesh asset.
===Deformer Extensions===
Morph extensions could be thought of as a partial implementation of morph targets specifically for use in combination with Qarl's deformer. This would be a blend between Qarl's mesh deformer, and vertex map pruning.

The idea behind this is to define unique vertex positions that would then be encoded into a vertex map on the mesh, much like how morph targets work in general. The defining factor however, is the mesh deformer would do the majority of the deformation, with the morph target only containing the vertex positions that otherwise wouldn't be included if the content creator were to just rely on the mesh deformer.

Deformer extensions could be calculated upon upload, using the mesh deformer to help determine which portions of the morph targets to discard in the process.
====Advantages====
This could be seen as a partial solution, and potentially has the highest level of bandwidth mitigation, while still retaining some of the control that full morph targets would give content creators.
====Disadvantages====
The biggest disadvantage with this would primarily involve educating content creators how to create morph targets that would yield the best results with this method.
====Workflow====
The workflow for deformer extensions has the potential to get tedious. Content creators would have to know how the deformer would deform their content, and plan their morph targets accordingly. Although it has the ability to cut down on the amount of bandwidth needed for morph targets, the workflow may be untenable for content creators.

==Proposed Initial Feature Set==
TBD
==Conclusion==
TBD

Morph Target Community Proposal

2012-07-21T17:10:28Z

Geenz Spad: /* What is a Morph Target? */

This page is to contain the overall community proposal for "Morph Targets".

Please do not add to this page without authorization from a co-chair or a co-chair's assistant from the Content Creation Improvement User Group first. Please discuss any relevant points in the discussion tab in the wiki.
==What is a Morph Target?==
A morph target, also known as a blend shape, or a shape key in some 3D applications, is a special kind of "vertex map" containing the positions of vertices in relation to their original position on a mesh. They are relatively easy to work with, only requiring the content creator to "sculpt" or otherwise move the vertices on their meshes to the positions they'd like for a morph target.

Most 3D applications support authoring morph targets, such as Luxology Modo, Autodesk 3ds Max, Autodesk Maya, and Blender. The Collada file format also supports morph targets.
===What are they used for?===
Most modern video games use morph targets for complex animations that would otherwise be hard to accomplish with skeletal animation, such as facial animation, and even things like character customization. The viewer its self actually uses morph targets to enable avatar customization already.
===Why do we need them?===
A a small list of examples of what they could be used for in the context of Second Life include:
* Complex facial animations on rigged meshes
* Additional ways for a user to customize the appearance of their avatar
* Animating the surface of a prim without the need to use a custom skeleton
* Fine grained control for content creators over how their clothing and avatars deform
There's a lot that can be achieved with morph targets, and this is just a small list of things that can be accomplished

==Caveats of Existing Techniques==
Existing techniques, such as RedPoly's proposed cBones technique and Qarl Fizz's Mesh Deformer, have their own disadvantages that morph targets are intended to either mitigate, or solve completely.

"cBones" as they're called, have the caveat of requiring content creators to rig many more bones than what would otherwise be necessary for simply animating a rigged mesh. It extends the workflow of rigging a mesh substantially into taking several hours of work; sometimes with a significant amount of trial and error. On top of that, a content creator sometimes is working "blind" with regards to what the final outcome will be in-world. This is not seen as an ideal workflow, as it increases the burden on content creators to produce this content. It does, however, provide more control over the deformation process, and is potentially faster than Qarl's mesh deformer.

Qarl's mesh deformer has the benefit, and caveat, of deforming a rigged mesh in accordance to the avatar's current shape automatically. The reason why some may see this as a caveat, is because this doesn't ensure correct deformation all the time. An example of where this may be undesirable can include custom mesh avatars, where the entire avatar mesh is replaced. A content creator may want to make their avatar's belly deform differently than the avatar mesh's belly does, or may want to have their avatar's breasts deform differently. This is a problem that morph targets could easily solve, by putting content creators in control of how a rigged mesh deforms. The mesh deformer also currently depends on the content creator making their content around a specific shape for it to work properly. Morph targets would lessen the need for this to some degree.
==Morph Target Advantages==
There are a few advantages of morph targets that existing solutions do not provide.
===Workflow===
Morph targets allow a content creator to literally "sculpt" how a morph target should appear, directly within their 3D application of choice. This gives them the ability to directly control over how a mesh "deforms" around the avatar, or in the context of rigged mesh replacement avatars, how an avatar "deforms". An ideal workflow would enable content creators to create a "morph map", a special vertex map in their 3D application of choice, and begin sculpting how that morph target should look in-world with respect to the associated avatar mesh morph target.

Each morph target currently should correspond to an existing morph target on the avatar mesh. Some examples include:
* Belly size
* Torso muscularity
* Saddle bags
* Body fat
* Breast size

There are already several pre-existing tools that can work with morph targets, and there's several ways morph targets can be tested. 3D modeling applications such as Autodesk Maya, Autodesk 3ds Max, and Luxology Modo all support morph targets out of the box, and the Collada file format also supports morph targets. One could effectively test different morph target combinations directly within their 3D modeling application of choice, or even existing game-engine toolsets. This would allow for content creators to rapidly iterate with their work, making adjustments on the fly with minimal slow down by cutting out the need to upload meshes to test their work.

Another workflow possibility is one could effectively "bake" the different potential morphs of a mesh, and simply tweak them until the content creator has the general effect they're looking for.
===Performance===
Morph targets do have some performance implications, however they're largely mitigable. Depending on the implementation, morph targets could have a very small performance impact that could be less than that of Qarl's deformer. This would mean more avatars could be in view using morph targets on more rigged meshes, enabling more people to experience the benefits of mesh clothing that fits properly.

Furthermore, morph targets could some day become an optimization to Qarl's deformer by precalculating the morph targets for a mesh on import. This would provide the potential performance benefits that morph targets provide, while still enabling an automatic solution for content creators to make use of.

==Morph Target Disadvantages==
Morph targets are not entirely a perfect solution. There are a few notable disadvantages relating to bandwidth usage, and potential workflow disadvantages relating to specific implementations.
===Bandwidth===
Morph targets require additional information to be encoded either within a mesh, or within a texture. This means that additional bandwidth will be required to transmit any mesh with morph targets.

The bandwidth cost could be mitigated by either determining what vertices have a "similar" position across different morph targets and simply reusing those values, by only including a partial vertex map for the morph target by excluding vertices that don't have unique positions in the vertex map, or by even using textures that can be loaded progressively.

The amount of bandwidth required to support morph targets will vary depending on the implementation approach taken.
===Workflow===
Although the workflow is largely more streamlined than that of rigging a mesh, it does require content creators learn how to efficiently create morph targets. This will vary largely upon the implementation approach taken to support morph targets on Second Life.
==Implementation Approaches==
There are a few possible implementation approaches. They each of their advantages and disadvantages associated with them.
===Vector Displacement Maps===
A vector displacement map encodes the positional information for a given vertex on a mesh. They can operate with relatively low overhead, and can be accessed through a vertex shader to displace an object's vertices. They can also be "baked" and transmitted to other viewers after a morph has been finalized. They're also capable of working with or without tessellation, and can operate reasonably well at lower resolutions.
====Advantages====
They would also benefit from progressive loading, and could effectively function as a regular texture on the asset backend. Being regular images effectively means they can also take advantage of image compression.

They can also be used on practically any prim face as well, potentially paving the path towards a general purpose solution in the future for assigning morph targets to standard primitives, and virtually any arbitrary mesh in-world furthering the overall customization of in-world content.
====Disadvantages====
The primary disadvantage to this technique, would be the ability to "copy" the content without the creator's permission by simply using the UUID to the VDM.
====Workflow====
The VDM workflow could be largely transparent to content creators, by creating them on mesh upload.
===Vertex Map Pruning===
Vertex map pruning would work by comparing the vertices in a morph target's values against the original positions of the associated positions of the vertices on the mesh. If they're within a particular threshold, those vertices could be discarded from the vertex map. An extension of this method could be to create a list of "similar" vertex positions, and having an optimization process in place that will "link" similar vertices across the vertex maps based upon their position.
====Advantages====
This would help mitigate the bandwidth concerns, while also mitigating content theft concerns as meshes are not currently trivial to "copybot".
====Disadvantages====
The downside would be that this requires extensions to the mesh format that could create problems for older viewers that wouldn't support the new morph target functionality. Fallback mechanisms may need to be devised to ensure backwards compatibility. Performance may also become an issue, but ways to mitigate it is to expose a single vertex map to the GPU that contains interpolated vertex positions, from which the GPU can apply within a vertex program better enabling hardware acceleration on a wider range of hardware.
====Workflow====
As with VDMs, vertex map pruning would be transparent to content creators since only vertices that have unique positions would be included in the uploaded mesh asset.
===Deformer Extensions===
Morph extensions could be thought of as a partial implementation of morph targets specifically for use in combination with Qarl's deformer. This would be a blend between Qarl's mesh deformer, and vertex map pruning.

The idea behind this is to define unique vertex positions that would then be encoded into a vertex map on the mesh, much like how morph targets work in general. The defining factor however, is the mesh deformer would do the majority of the deformation, with the morph target only containing the vertex positions that otherwise wouldn't be included if the content creator were to just rely on the mesh deformer.

Deformer extensions could be calculated upon upload, using the mesh deformer to help determine which portions of the morph targets to discard in the process.
====Advantages====
This could be seen as a partial solution, and potentially has the highest level of bandwidth mitigation, while still retaining some of the control that full morph targets would give content creators.
====Disadvantages====
The biggest disadvantage with this would primarily involve educating content creators how to create morph targets that would yield the best results with this method.
====Workflow====
The workflow for deformer extensions has the potential to get tedious. Content creators would have to know how the deformer would deform their content, and plan their morph targets accordingly. Although it has the ability to cut down on the amount of bandwidth needed for morph targets, the workflow may be untenable for content creators.

==Proposed Initial Feature Set==
TBD
==Conclusion==
TBD

Morph Target Community Proposal

2012-07-21T17:08:27Z

Geenz Spad: /* Workflow */

This page is to contain the overall community proposal for "Morph Targets".

Please do not add to this page without authorization from a co-chair or a co-chair's assistant from the Content Creation Improvement User Group first. Please discuss any relevant points in the discussion tab in the wiki.
==What is a Morph Target?==
A morph target, also known as a blend shape, or a shape key in some 3D applications, is a special kind of "vertex map" containing the positions of vertices in relation to their original position on a mesh. They are relatively easy to work with, only requiring the content creator to "sculpt" or otherwise move the vertices on their meshes to the positions they'd like for a morph target.

Most 3D applications support authoring morph targets, such as Luxology Modo, Autodesk 3ds Max, Autodesk Maya, and Blender. The Collada file format also supports morph targets.
===What are they used for?===
Most modern video games use morph targets for complex animations that would otherwise be hard to accomplish with skeletal animation, such as facial animation, and even things like character customization. The viewer its self actually uses morph targets to enable avatar customization as-is.

A a small list of examples of what they could be used for in the context of Second Life include:
* Complex facial animations on rigged meshes
* Additional ways for a user to customize the appearance of their avatar
* Animating the surface of a prim without the need to use a custom skeleton
* Fine grained control for content creators over how their clothing deforms
==Caveats of Existing Techniques==
Existing techniques, such as RedPoly's proposed cBones technique and Qarl Fizz's Mesh Deformer, have their own disadvantages that morph targets are intended to either mitigate, or solve completely.

"cBones" as they're called, have the caveat of requiring content creators to rig many more bones than what would otherwise be necessary for simply animating a rigged mesh. It extends the workflow of rigging a mesh substantially into taking several hours of work; sometimes with a significant amount of trial and error. On top of that, a content creator sometimes is working "blind" with regards to what the final outcome will be in-world. This is not seen as an ideal workflow, as it increases the burden on content creators to produce this content. It does, however, provide more control over the deformation process, and is potentially faster than Qarl's mesh deformer.

Qarl's mesh deformer has the benefit, and caveat, of deforming a rigged mesh in accordance to the avatar's current shape automatically. The reason why some may see this as a caveat, is because this doesn't ensure correct deformation all the time. An example of where this may be undesirable can include custom mesh avatars, where the entire avatar mesh is replaced. A content creator may want to make their avatar's belly deform differently than the avatar mesh's belly does, or may want to have their avatar's breasts deform differently. This is a problem that morph targets could easily solve, by putting content creators in control of how a rigged mesh deforms. The mesh deformer also currently depends on the content creator making their content around a specific shape for it to work properly. Morph targets would lessen the need for this to some degree.
==Morph Target Advantages==
There are a few advantages of morph targets that existing solutions do not provide.
===Workflow===
Morph targets allow a content creator to literally "sculpt" how a morph target should appear, directly within their 3D application of choice. This gives them the ability to directly control over how a mesh "deforms" around the avatar, or in the context of rigged mesh replacement avatars, how an avatar "deforms". An ideal workflow would enable content creators to create a "morph map", a special vertex map in their 3D application of choice, and begin sculpting how that morph target should look in-world with respect to the associated avatar mesh morph target.

Each morph target currently should correspond to an existing morph target on the avatar mesh. Some examples include:
* Belly size
* Torso muscularity
* Saddle bags
* Body fat
* Breast size

There are already several pre-existing tools that can work with morph targets, and there's several ways morph targets can be tested. 3D modeling applications such as Autodesk Maya, Autodesk 3ds Max, and Luxology Modo all support morph targets out of the box, and the Collada file format also supports morph targets. One could effectively test different morph target combinations directly within their 3D modeling application of choice, or even existing game-engine toolsets. This would allow for content creators to rapidly iterate with their work, making adjustments on the fly with minimal slow down by cutting out the need to upload meshes to test their work.

Another workflow possibility is one could effectively "bake" the different potential morphs of a mesh, and simply tweak them until the content creator has the general effect they're looking for.
===Performance===
Morph targets do have some performance implications, however they're largely mitigable. Depending on the implementation, morph targets could have a very small performance impact that could be less than that of Qarl's deformer. This would mean more avatars could be in view using morph targets on more rigged meshes, enabling more people to experience the benefits of mesh clothing that fits properly.

Furthermore, morph targets could some day become an optimization to Qarl's deformer by precalculating the morph targets for a mesh on import. This would provide the potential performance benefits that morph targets provide, while still enabling an automatic solution for content creators to make use of.

==Morph Target Disadvantages==
Morph targets are not entirely a perfect solution. There are a few notable disadvantages relating to bandwidth usage, and potential workflow disadvantages relating to specific implementations.
===Bandwidth===
Morph targets require additional information to be encoded either within a mesh, or within a texture. This means that additional bandwidth will be required to transmit any mesh with morph targets.

The bandwidth cost could be mitigated by either determining what vertices have a "similar" position across different morph targets and simply reusing those values, by only including a partial vertex map for the morph target by excluding vertices that don't have unique positions in the vertex map, or by even using textures that can be loaded progressively.

The amount of bandwidth required to support morph targets will vary depending on the implementation approach taken.
===Workflow===
Although the workflow is largely more streamlined than that of rigging a mesh, it does require content creators learn how to efficiently create morph targets. This will vary largely upon the implementation approach taken to support morph targets on Second Life.
==Implementation Approaches==
There are a few possible implementation approaches. They each of their advantages and disadvantages associated with them.
===Vector Displacement Maps===
A vector displacement map encodes the positional information for a given vertex on a mesh. They can operate with relatively low overhead, and can be accessed through a vertex shader to displace an object's vertices. They can also be "baked" and transmitted to other viewers after a morph has been finalized. They're also capable of working with or without tessellation, and can operate reasonably well at lower resolutions.
====Advantages====
They would also benefit from progressive loading, and could effectively function as a regular texture on the asset backend. Being regular images effectively means they can also take advantage of image compression.

They can also be used on practically any prim face as well, potentially paving the path towards a general purpose solution in the future for assigning morph targets to standard primitives, and virtually any arbitrary mesh in-world furthering the overall customization of in-world content.
====Disadvantages====
The primary disadvantage to this technique, would be the ability to "copy" the content without the creator's permission by simply using the UUID to the VDM.
====Workflow====
The VDM workflow could be largely transparent to content creators, by creating them on mesh upload.
===Vertex Map Pruning===
Vertex map pruning would work by comparing the vertices in a morph target's values against the original positions of the associated positions of the vertices on the mesh. If they're within a particular threshold, those vertices could be discarded from the vertex map. An extension of this method could be to create a list of "similar" vertex positions, and having an optimization process in place that will "link" similar vertices across the vertex maps based upon their position.
====Advantages====
This would help mitigate the bandwidth concerns, while also mitigating content theft concerns as meshes are not currently trivial to "copybot".
====Disadvantages====
The downside would be that this requires extensions to the mesh format that could create problems for older viewers that wouldn't support the new morph target functionality. Fallback mechanisms may need to be devised to ensure backwards compatibility. Performance may also become an issue, but ways to mitigate it is to expose a single vertex map to the GPU that contains interpolated vertex positions, from which the GPU can apply within a vertex program better enabling hardware acceleration on a wider range of hardware.
====Workflow====
As with VDMs, vertex map pruning would be transparent to content creators since only vertices that have unique positions would be included in the uploaded mesh asset.
===Deformer Extensions===
Morph extensions could be thought of as a partial implementation of morph targets specifically for use in combination with Qarl's deformer. This would be a blend between Qarl's mesh deformer, and vertex map pruning.

The idea behind this is to define unique vertex positions that would then be encoded into a vertex map on the mesh, much like how morph targets work in general. The defining factor however, is the mesh deformer would do the majority of the deformation, with the morph target only containing the vertex positions that otherwise wouldn't be included if the content creator were to just rely on the mesh deformer.

Deformer extensions could be calculated upon upload, using the mesh deformer to help determine which portions of the morph targets to discard in the process.
====Advantages====
This could be seen as a partial solution, and potentially has the highest level of bandwidth mitigation, while still retaining some of the control that full morph targets would give content creators.
====Disadvantages====
The biggest disadvantage with this would primarily involve educating content creators how to create morph targets that would yield the best results with this method.
====Workflow====
The workflow for deformer extensions has the potential to get tedious. Content creators would have to know how the deformer would deform their content, and plan their morph targets accordingly. Although it has the ability to cut down on the amount of bandwidth needed for morph targets, the workflow may be untenable for content creators.

==Proposed Initial Feature Set==
TBD
==Conclusion==
TBD

Morph Target Community Proposal

2012-07-21T16:31:29Z

Geenz Spad: /* Implementation Approaches */

This page is to contain the overall community proposal for "Morph Targets".

Please do not add to this page without authorization from a co-chair or a co-chair's assistant from the Content Creation Improvement User Group first. Please discuss any relevant points in the discussion tab in the wiki.
==What is a Morph Target?==
A morph target, also known as a blend shape, or a shape key in some 3D applications, is a special kind of "vertex map" containing the positions of vertices in relation to their original position on a mesh. They are relatively easy to work with, only requiring the content creator to "sculpt" or otherwise move the vertices on their meshes to the positions they'd like for a morph target.

Most 3D applications support authoring morph targets, such as Luxology Modo, Autodesk 3ds Max, Autodesk Maya, and Blender. The Collada file format also supports morph targets.
===What are they used for?===
Most modern video games use morph targets for complex animations that would otherwise be hard to accomplish with skeletal animation, such as facial animation, and even things like character customization. The viewer its self actually uses morph targets to enable avatar customization as-is.

A a small list of examples of what they could be used for in the context of Second Life include:
* Complex facial animations on rigged meshes
* Additional ways for a user to customize the appearance of their avatar
* Animating the surface of a prim without the need to use a custom skeleton
* Fine grained control for content creators over how their clothing deforms
==Caveats of Existing Techniques==
Existing techniques, such as RedPoly's proposed cBones technique and Qarl Fizz's Mesh Deformer, have their own disadvantages that morph targets are intended to either mitigate, or solve completely.

"cBones" as they're called, have the caveat of requiring content creators to rig many more bones than what would otherwise be necessary for simply animating a rigged mesh. It extends the workflow of rigging a mesh substantially into taking several hours of work; sometimes with a significant amount of trial and error. On top of that, a content creator sometimes is working "blind" with regards to what the final outcome will be in-world. This is not seen as an ideal workflow, as it increases the burden on content creators to produce this content. It does, however, provide more control over the deformation process, and is potentially faster than Qarl's mesh deformer.

Qarl's mesh deformer has the benefit, and caveat, of deforming a rigged mesh in accordance to the avatar's current shape automatically. The reason why some may see this as a caveat, is because this doesn't ensure correct deformation all the time. An example of where this may be undesirable can include custom mesh avatars, where the entire avatar mesh is replaced. A content creator may want to make their avatar's belly deform differently than the avatar mesh's belly does, or may want to have their avatar's breasts deform differently. This is a problem that morph targets could easily solve, by putting content creators in control of how a rigged mesh deforms. The mesh deformer also currently depends on the content creator making their content around a specific shape for it to work properly. Morph targets would lessen the need for this to some degree.
==Morph Target Advantages==
There are a few advantages of morph targets that existing solutions do not provide.
===Workflow===
Morph targets allow a content creator to literally "sculpt" how a morph target should appear, directly within their 3D application of choice. This gives them the ability to directly control over how a mesh "deforms" around the avatar, or in the context of rigged mesh replacement avatars, how an avatar "deforms". An ideal workflow would enable content creators to create a "morph map", a special vertex map in their 3D application of choice, and begin sculpting how that morph target should look in-world with respect to the associated avatar mesh morph target.

Each morph target currently should correspond to an existing morph target on the avatar mesh. Some examples include:
* Belly size
* Torso muscularity
* Saddle bags
* Body fat
* Breast size

There are already several pre-existing tools that can work with morph targets, and there's several ways morph targets can be tested. 3D modeling applications such as Autodesk Maya, Autodesk 3ds Max, and Luxology Modo all support morph targets out of the box, and the Collada file format also supports morph targets. One could effectively test different morph target combinations directly within their 3D modeling application of choice, or even existing game-engine toolsets. This would allow for content creators to rapidly iterate with their work, making adjustments on the fly with minimal slow down by cutting out the need to upload meshes to test their work.

Another workflow possibility is one could effectively "bake" the different potential morphs of a mesh, and simply tweak them until the content creator has the general effect they're looking for.
===Performance===
Morph targets do have some performance implications, however they're largely mitigable. Depending on the implementation, morph targets could have a very small performance impact that could be less than that of Qarl's deformer. This would mean more avatars could be in view using morph targets on more rigged meshes, enabling more people to experience the benefits of mesh clothing that fits properly.

Furthermore, morph targets could some day become an optimization to Qarl's deformer by precalculating the morph targets for a mesh on import. This would provide the potential performance benefits that morph targets provide, while still enabling an automatic solution for content creators to make use of.

==Morph Target Disadvantages==
Morph targets are not entirely a perfect solution. There are a few notable disadvantages relating to bandwidth usage, and potential workflow disadvantages relating to specific implementations.
===Bandwidth===
Morph targets require additional information to be encoded either within a mesh, or within a texture. This means that additional bandwidth will be required to transmit any mesh with morph targets.

The bandwidth cost could be mitigated by either determining what vertices have a "similar" position across different morph targets and simply reusing those values, by only including a partial vertex map for the morph target by excluding vertices that don't have unique positions in the vertex map, or by even using textures that can be loaded progressively.

The amount of bandwidth required to support morph targets will vary depending on the implementation approach taken.
===Workflow===
Although the workflow is largely more streamlined than that of rigging a mesh, it does require content creators learn how to efficiently create morph targets. This will vary largely upon the implementation approach taken to support morph targets on Second Life.
==Implementation Approaches==
There are a few possible implementation approaches. They each of their advantages and disadvantages associated with them.
===Vector Displacement Maps===
A vector displacement map encodes the positional information for a given vertex on a mesh. They can operate with relatively low overhead, and can be accessed through a vertex shader to displace an object's vertices. They can also be "baked" and transmitted to other viewers after a morph has been finalized. They're also capable of working with or without tessellation, and can operate reasonably well at lower resolutions.
====Advantages====
They would also benefit from progressive loading, and could effectively function as a regular texture on the asset backend. Being regular images effectively means they can also take advantage of image compression.

They can also be used on practically any prim face as well, potentially paving the path towards a general purpose solution in the future for assigning morph targets to standard primitives, and virtually any arbitrary mesh in-world furthering the overall customization of in-world content.
====Disadvantages====
The primary disadvantage to this technique, would be the ability to "copy" the content without the creator's permission by simply using the UUID to the VDM.
====Workflow====
The VDM workflow could be largely transparent to content creators, by creating them on mesh upload.
===Vertex Map Pruning===
Vertex map pruning would work by comparing the vertices in a morph target's values against the original positions of the associated positions of the vertices on the mesh. If they're within a particular threshold, those vertices could be discarded from the vertex map. An extension of this method could be to create a list of "similar" vertex positions, and having an optimization process in place that will "link" similar vertices across the vertex maps based upon their position.
====Advantages====
This would help mitigate the bandwidth concerns, while also mitigating content theft concerns as meshes are not currently trivial to "copybot".
====Disadvantages====
The downside would be that this requires extensions to the mesh format that could create problems for older viewers that wouldn't support the new morph target functionality. Fallback mechanisms may need to be devised to ensure backwards compatibility. Performance may also become an issue, but ways to mitigate it is to expose a single vertex map to the GPU that contains interpolated vertex positions, from which the GPU can apply within a vertex program better enabling hardware acceleration on a wider range of hardware.
====Workflow====
As with VDMs, vertex map pruning would be transparent to content creators since only vertices that have unique positions would be included in the uploaded mesh asset.
===Deformer Extensions===
Morph extensions could be thought of as a partial implementation of morph targets specifically for use in combination with Qarl's deformer. This would be a blend between Qarl's mesh deformer, and vertex map pruning.

The idea behind this is to define unique vertex positions that would then be encoded into a vertex map on the mesh, much like how morph targets work in general. The defining factor however, is the mesh deformer would do the majority of the deformation, with the morph target only containing the vertex positions that otherwise wouldn't be included if the content creator were to just rely on the mesh deformer.

Deformer extensions could be calculated upon upload, using the mesh deformer to help determine which portions of the morph targets to discard in the process.
====Advantages====
This could be seen as a partial solution, and potentially has the highest level of bandwidth mitigation, while still retaining some of the control that full morph targets would give content creators.
====Disadvantages====
The biggest disadvantage with this would primarily involve educating content creators how to create morph targets that would yield the best results with this method.
====Workflow====
The workflow for deformer extensions has the potential to get tedious. Content creators would have to know how the deformer would deform their content as-is, and plan their morph targets accordingly. Although it has the ability to cut down on the amount of bandwidth needed for morph targets, the workflow may be untenable for content creators.

==Proposed Initial Feature Set==
TBD
==Conclusion==
TBD

Morph Target Community Proposal

2012-07-20T04:30:54Z

Geenz Spad: /* Implementation Approaches */

This page is to contain the overall community proposal for "Morph Targets".

Please do not add to this page without authorization from a co-chair or a co-chair's assistant from the Content Creation Improvement User Group first. Please discuss any relevant points in the discussion tab in the wiki.
==What is a Morph Target?==
A morph target, also known as a blend shape, or a shape key in some 3D applications, is a special kind of "vertex map" containing the positions of vertices in relation to their original position on a mesh. They are relatively easy to work with, only requiring the content creator to "sculpt" or otherwise move the vertices on their meshes to the positions they'd like for a morph target.

Most 3D applications support authoring morph targets, such as Luxology Modo, Autodesk 3ds Max, Autodesk Maya, and Blender. The Collada file format also supports morph targets.
===What are they used for?===
Most modern video games use morph targets for complex animations that would otherwise be hard to accomplish with skeletal animation, such as facial animation, and even things like character customization. The viewer its self actually uses morph targets to enable avatar customization as-is.

A a small list of examples of what they could be used for in the context of Second Life include:
* Complex facial animations on rigged meshes
* Additional ways for a user to customize the appearance of their avatar
* Animating the surface of a prim without the need to use a custom skeleton
* Fine grained control for content creators over how their clothing deforms
==Caveats of Existing Techniques==
Existing techniques, such as RedPoly's proposed cBones technique and Qarl Fizz's Mesh Deformer, have their own disadvantages that morph targets are intended to either mitigate, or solve completely.

"cBones" as they're called, have the caveat of requiring content creators to rig many more bones than what would otherwise be necessary for simply animating a rigged mesh. It extends the workflow of rigging a mesh substantially into taking several hours of work; sometimes with a significant amount of trial and error. On top of that, a content creator sometimes is working "blind" with regards to what the final outcome will be in-world. This is not seen as an ideal workflow, as it increases the burden on content creators to produce this content. It does, however, provide more control over the deformation process, and is potentially faster than Qarl's mesh deformer.

Qarl's mesh deformer has the benefit, and caveat, of deforming a rigged mesh in accordance to the avatar's current shape automatically. The reason why some may see this as a caveat, is because this doesn't ensure correct deformation all the time. An example of where this may be undesirable can include custom mesh avatars, where the entire avatar mesh is replaced. A content creator may want to make their avatar's belly deform differently than the avatar mesh's belly does, or may want to have their avatar's breasts deform differently. This is a problem that morph targets could easily solve, by putting content creators in control of how a rigged mesh deforms. The mesh deformer also currently depends on the content creator making their content around a specific shape for it to work properly. Morph targets would lessen the need for this to some degree.
==Morph Target Advantages==
There are a few advantages of morph targets that existing solutions do not provide.
===Workflow===
Morph targets allow a content creator to literally "sculpt" how a morph target should appear, directly within their 3D application of choice. This gives them the ability to directly control over how a mesh "deforms" around the avatar, or in the context of rigged mesh replacement avatars, how an avatar "deforms". An ideal workflow would enable content creators to create a "morph map", a special vertex map in their 3D application of choice, and begin sculpting how that morph target should look in-world with respect to the associated avatar mesh morph target.

Each morph target currently should correspond to an existing morph target on the avatar mesh. Some examples include:
* Belly size
* Torso muscularity
* Saddle bags
* Body fat
* Breast size

There are already several pre-existing tools that can work with morph targets, and there's several ways morph targets can be tested. 3D modeling applications such as Autodesk Maya, Autodesk 3ds Max, and Luxology Modo all support morph targets out of the box, and the Collada file format also supports morph targets. One could effectively test different morph target combinations directly within their 3D modeling application of choice, or even existing game-engine toolsets. This would allow for content creators to rapidly iterate with their work, making adjustments on the fly with minimal slow down by cutting out the need to upload meshes to test their work.

Another workflow possibility is one could effectively "bake" the different potential morphs of a mesh, and simply tweak them until the content creator has the general effect they're looking for.
===Performance===
Morph targets do have some performance implications, however they're largely mitigable. Depending on the implementation, morph targets could have a very small performance impact that could be less than that of Qarl's deformer. This would mean more avatars could be in view using morph targets on more rigged meshes, enabling more people to experience the benefits of mesh clothing that fits properly.

Furthermore, morph targets could some day become an optimization to Qarl's deformer by precalculating the morph targets for a mesh on import. This would provide the potential performance benefits that morph targets provide, while still enabling an automatic solution for content creators to make use of.

==Morph Target Disadvantages==
Morph targets are not entirely a perfect solution. There are a few notable disadvantages relating to bandwidth usage, and potential workflow disadvantages relating to specific implementations.
===Bandwidth===
Morph targets require additional information to be encoded either within a mesh, or within a texture. This means that additional bandwidth will be required to transmit any mesh with morph targets.

The bandwidth cost could be mitigated by either determining what vertices have a "similar" position across different morph targets and simply reusing those values, by only including a partial vertex map for the morph target by excluding vertices that don't have unique positions in the vertex map, or by even using textures that can be loaded progressively.

The amount of bandwidth required to support morph targets will vary depending on the implementation approach taken.
===Workflow===
Although the workflow is largely more streamlined than that of rigging a mesh, it does require content creators learn how to efficiently create morph targets. This will vary largely upon the implementation approach taken to support morph targets on Second Life.
==Implementation Approaches==
There are a few possible implementation approaches. They each of their advantages and disadvantages associated with them.
===Vector Displacement Maps===
A vector displacement map encodes the positional information for a given vertex on a mesh. They can operate with relatively low overhead, and can be accessed through a vertex shader to displace an object's vertices. They can also be "baked" and transmitted to other viewers after a morph has been finalized. They're also capable of working with or without tessellation, and can operate reasonably well at lower resolutions.

They would also benefit from progressive loading, and could effectively function as a regular texture on the asset backend. Being regular images effectively means they can also take advantage of image compression.

They can also be used on practically any prim face as well, potentially paving the path towards a general purpose solution in the future for assigning morph targets to standard primitives, and virtually any arbitrary mesh in-world furthering the overall customization of in-world content.
====Disadvantages====
The primary disadvantage to this technique, would be the ability to "copy" the content without the creator's permission by simply using the UUID to the VDM.
===Vertex Map Pruning===
Vertex map pruning would work by comparing the vertices in a morph target's values against the original positions of the associated positions of the vertices on the mesh. If they're within a particular threshold, those vertices could be discarded from the vertex map. An extension of this method could be to create a list of "similar" vertex positions, and having an optimization process in place that will "link" similar vertices across the vertex maps based upon their position.
====Advantages====
This would help mitigate the bandwidth concerns, while also mitigating content theft concerns as meshes are not currently trivial to "copybot".
====Disadvantages====
The downside would be that this requires extensions to the mesh format that could create problems for older viewers that wouldn't support the new morph target functionality. Fallback mechanisms may need to be devised to ensure backwards compatibility. Performance may also become an issue, but ways to mitigate it is to expose a single vertex map to the GPU that contains interpolated vertex positions, from which the GPU can apply within a vertex program better enabling hardware acceleration on a wider range of hardware.

===Deformer Extensions===
Morph extensions could be thought of as a partial implementation of morph targets specifically for use in combination with Qarl's deformer. This would be a blend between Qarl's mesh deformer, and vertex map pruning.

The idea behind this is to define unique vertex positions that would then be encoded into a vertex map on the mesh, much like how morph targets work in general. The defining factor however, is the mesh deformer would do the majority of the deformation, with the morph target only containing the vertex positions that otherwise wouldn't be included if the content creator were to just rely on the mesh deformer.

Deformer extensions could be calculated upon upload, using the mesh deformer to help determine which portions of the morph targets to discard in the process.
====Advantages====
This could be seen as a partial solution, and potentially has the highest level of bandwidth mitigation, while still retaining some of the control that full morph targets would give content creators.
====Disadvantages====
The biggest disadvantage with this would primarily involve educating content creators how to create morph targets that would yield the best results with this method.

==Proposed Initial Feature Set==
TBD
==Conclusion==
TBD

Morph Target Community Proposal

2012-07-20T03:37:15Z

Geenz Spad: /* Implementation Approaches */

This page is to contain the overall community proposal for "Morph Targets".

Please do not add to this page without authorization from a co-chair or a co-chair's assistant from the Content Creation Improvement User Group first. Please discuss any relevant points in the discussion tab in the wiki.
==What is a Morph Target?==
A morph target, also known as a blend shape, or a shape key in some 3D applications, is a special kind of "vertex map" containing the positions of vertices in relation to their original position on a mesh. They are relatively easy to work with, only requiring the content creator to "sculpt" or otherwise move the vertices on their meshes to the positions they'd like for a morph target.

Most 3D applications support authoring morph targets, such as Luxology Modo, Autodesk 3ds Max, Autodesk Maya, and Blender. The Collada file format also supports morph targets.
===What are they used for?===
Most modern video games use morph targets for complex animations that would otherwise be hard to accomplish with skeletal animation, such as facial animation, and even things like character customization. The viewer its self actually uses morph targets to enable avatar customization as-is.

A a small list of examples of what they could be used for in the context of Second Life include:
* Complex facial animations on rigged meshes
* Additional ways for a user to customize the appearance of their avatar
* Animating the surface of a prim without the need to use a custom skeleton
* Fine grained control for content creators over how their clothing deforms
==Caveats of Existing Techniques==
Existing techniques, such as RedPoly's proposed cBones technique and Qarl Fizz's Mesh Deformer, have their own disadvantages that morph targets are intended to either mitigate, or solve completely.

"cBones" as they're called, have the caveat of requiring content creators to rig many more bones than what would otherwise be necessary for simply animating a rigged mesh. It extends the workflow of rigging a mesh substantially into taking several hours of work; sometimes with a significant amount of trial and error. On top of that, a content creator sometimes is working "blind" with regards to what the final outcome will be in-world. This is not seen as an ideal workflow, as it increases the burden on content creators to produce this content. It does, however, provide more control over the deformation process, and is potentially faster than Qarl's mesh deformer.

Qarl's mesh deformer has the benefit, and caveat, of deforming a rigged mesh in accordance to the avatar's current shape automatically. The reason why some may see this as a caveat, is because this doesn't ensure correct deformation all the time. An example of where this may be undesirable can include custom mesh avatars, where the entire avatar mesh is replaced. A content creator may want to make their avatar's belly deform differently than the avatar mesh's belly does, or may want to have their avatar's breasts deform differently. This is a problem that morph targets could easily solve, by putting content creators in control of how a rigged mesh deforms. The mesh deformer also currently depends on the content creator making their content around a specific shape for it to work properly. Morph targets would lessen the need for this to some degree.
==Morph Target Advantages==
There are a few advantages of morph targets that existing solutions do not provide.
===Workflow===
Morph targets allow a content creator to literally "sculpt" how a morph target should appear, directly within their 3D application of choice. This gives them the ability to directly control over how a mesh "deforms" around the avatar, or in the context of rigged mesh replacement avatars, how an avatar "deforms". An ideal workflow would enable content creators to create a "morph map", a special vertex map in their 3D application of choice, and begin sculpting how that morph target should look in-world with respect to the associated avatar mesh morph target.

Each morph target currently should correspond to an existing morph target on the avatar mesh. Some examples include:
* Belly size
* Torso muscularity
* Saddle bags
* Body fat
* Breast size

There are already several pre-existing tools that can work with morph targets, and there's several ways morph targets can be tested. 3D modeling applications such as Autodesk Maya, Autodesk 3ds Max, and Luxology Modo all support morph targets out of the box, and the Collada file format also supports morph targets. One could effectively test different morph target combinations directly within their 3D modeling application of choice, or even existing game-engine toolsets. This would allow for content creators to rapidly iterate with their work, making adjustments on the fly with minimal slow down by cutting out the need to upload meshes to test their work.

Another workflow possibility is one could effectively "bake" the different potential morphs of a mesh, and simply tweak them until the content creator has the general effect they're looking for.
===Performance===
Morph targets do have some performance implications, however they're largely mitigable. Depending on the implementation, morph targets could have a very small performance impact that could be less than that of Qarl's deformer. This would mean more avatars could be in view using morph targets on more rigged meshes, enabling more people to experience the benefits of mesh clothing that fits properly.

Furthermore, morph targets could some day become an optimization to Qarl's deformer by precalculating the morph targets for a mesh on import. This would provide the potential performance benefits that morph targets provide, while still enabling an automatic solution for content creators to make use of.

==Morph Target Disadvantages==
Morph targets are not entirely a perfect solution. There are a few notable disadvantages relating to bandwidth usage, and potential workflow disadvantages relating to specific implementations.
===Bandwidth===
Morph targets require additional information to be encoded either within a mesh, or within a texture. This means that additional bandwidth will be required to transmit any mesh with morph targets.

The bandwidth cost could be mitigated by either determining what vertices have a "similar" position across different morph targets and simply reusing those values, by only including a partial vertex map for the morph target by excluding vertices that don't have unique positions in the vertex map, or by even using textures that can be loaded progressively.

The amount of bandwidth required to support morph targets will vary depending on the implementation approach taken.
===Workflow===
Although the workflow is largely more streamlined than that of rigging a mesh, it does require content creators learn how to efficiently create morph targets. This will vary largely upon the implementation approach taken to support morph targets on Second Life.
==Implementation Approaches==
There are a few possible implementation approaches. They each of their advantages and disadvantages associated with them.
===Vector Displacement Maps===
A vector displacement map encodes the positional information for a given vertex on a mesh. They can operate with relatively low overhead, and can be accessed through a vertex shader to displace an object's vertices. They can also be "baked" and transmitted to other viewers after a morph has been finalized. They're also capable of working with or without tessellation, and can operate reasonably well at lower resolutions.

They would also benefit from progressive loading, and could effectively function as a regular texture on the asset backend. Being regular images effectively means they can also take advantage of image compression.

They can also be used on practically any prim face as well, potentially paving the path towards a general purpose solution in the future for assigning morph targets to standard primitives, and virtually any arbitrary mesh in-world furthering the overall customization of in-world content.
====Disadvantages====
The primary disadvantage to this technique, would be the ability to "copy" the content without the creator's permission by simply using the UUID to the VDM.
===Vertex Map Pruning===
Vertex map pruning would work by comparing the vertices in a morph target's values against the original positions of the associated positions of the vertices on the mesh. If they're within a particular threshold, those vertices could be discarded from the vertex map. An extension of this method could be to create a list of "similar" vertex positions, and having an optimization process in place that will "link" similar vertices across the vertex maps based upon their position.

This would help mitigate the bandwidth concerns, while also mitigating content theft concerns as meshes are not currently trivial to "copybot".
====Disadvantages====
The downside would be that this requires extensions to the mesh format that could create problems for older viewers that wouldn't support the new morph target functionality. Fallback mechanisms may need to be devised to ensure backwards compatibility. Performance may also become an issue, but ways to mitigate it is to expose a single vertex map to the GPU that contains interpolated vertex positions, from which the GPU can apply within a vertex program better enabling hardware acceleration on a wider range of hardware.

===Deformer Extensions===
Morph extensions could be thought of as a partial implementation of morph targets specifically for use in combination with Qarl's deformer. This would be a blend between Qarl's mesh deformer, and vertex map pruning.

The idea behind this is to define unique vertex positions that would then be encoded into a vertex map on the mesh, much like how morph targets work in general. The defining factor however, is the mesh deformer would do the majority of the deformation, with the morph target only containing the vertex positions that otherwise wouldn't be included if the content creator were to just rely on the mesh deformer.

Deformer extensions could be calculated upon upload, using the mesh deformer to help determine which portions of the morph targets to discard in the process.

This could be seen as a partial solution, and potentially has the highest level of bandwidth mitigation, while still retaining some of the control that full morph targets would give content creators.
====Disadvantages====
The biggest disadvantage with this would primarily involve educating content creators how to create morph targets that would yield the best results with this method.

==Proposed Initial Feature Set==
TBD
==Conclusion==
TBD

Morph Target Community Proposal

2012-07-20T03:36:55Z

Geenz Spad: /* Deformer Extensions */

This page is to contain the overall community proposal for "Morph Targets".

Please do not add to this page without authorization from a co-chair or a co-chair's assistant from the Content Creation Improvement User Group first. Please discuss any relevant points in the discussion tab in the wiki.
==What is a Morph Target?==
A morph target, also known as a blend shape, or a shape key in some 3D applications, is a special kind of "vertex map" containing the positions of vertices in relation to their original position on a mesh. They are relatively easy to work with, only requiring the content creator to "sculpt" or otherwise move the vertices on their meshes to the positions they'd like for a morph target.

Most 3D applications support authoring morph targets, such as Luxology Modo, Autodesk 3ds Max, Autodesk Maya, and Blender. The Collada file format also supports morph targets.
===What are they used for?===
Most modern video games use morph targets for complex animations that would otherwise be hard to accomplish with skeletal animation, such as facial animation, and even things like character customization. The viewer its self actually uses morph targets to enable avatar customization as-is.

A a small list of examples of what they could be used for in the context of Second Life include:
* Complex facial animations on rigged meshes
* Additional ways for a user to customize the appearance of their avatar
* Animating the surface of a prim without the need to use a custom skeleton
* Fine grained control for content creators over how their clothing deforms
==Caveats of Existing Techniques==
Existing techniques, such as RedPoly's proposed cBones technique and Qarl Fizz's Mesh Deformer, have their own disadvantages that morph targets are intended to either mitigate, or solve completely.

"cBones" as they're called, have the caveat of requiring content creators to rig many more bones than what would otherwise be necessary for simply animating a rigged mesh. It extends the workflow of rigging a mesh substantially into taking several hours of work; sometimes with a significant amount of trial and error. On top of that, a content creator sometimes is working "blind" with regards to what the final outcome will be in-world. This is not seen as an ideal workflow, as it increases the burden on content creators to produce this content. It does, however, provide more control over the deformation process, and is potentially faster than Qarl's mesh deformer.

Qarl's mesh deformer has the benefit, and caveat, of deforming a rigged mesh in accordance to the avatar's current shape automatically. The reason why some may see this as a caveat, is because this doesn't ensure correct deformation all the time. An example of where this may be undesirable can include custom mesh avatars, where the entire avatar mesh is replaced. A content creator may want to make their avatar's belly deform differently than the avatar mesh's belly does, or may want to have their avatar's breasts deform differently. This is a problem that morph targets could easily solve, by putting content creators in control of how a rigged mesh deforms. The mesh deformer also currently depends on the content creator making their content around a specific shape for it to work properly. Morph targets would lessen the need for this to some degree.
==Morph Target Advantages==
There are a few advantages of morph targets that existing solutions do not provide.
===Workflow===
Morph targets allow a content creator to literally "sculpt" how a morph target should appear, directly within their 3D application of choice. This gives them the ability to directly control over how a mesh "deforms" around the avatar, or in the context of rigged mesh replacement avatars, how an avatar "deforms". An ideal workflow would enable content creators to create a "morph map", a special vertex map in their 3D application of choice, and begin sculpting how that morph target should look in-world with respect to the associated avatar mesh morph target.

Each morph target currently should correspond to an existing morph target on the avatar mesh. Some examples include:
* Belly size
* Torso muscularity
* Saddle bags
* Body fat
* Breast size

There are already several pre-existing tools that can work with morph targets, and there's several ways morph targets can be tested. 3D modeling applications such as Autodesk Maya, Autodesk 3ds Max, and Luxology Modo all support morph targets out of the box, and the Collada file format also supports morph targets. One could effectively test different morph target combinations directly within their 3D modeling application of choice, or even existing game-engine toolsets. This would allow for content creators to rapidly iterate with their work, making adjustments on the fly with minimal slow down by cutting out the need to upload meshes to test their work.

Another workflow possibility is one could effectively "bake" the different potential morphs of a mesh, and simply tweak them until the content creator has the general effect they're looking for.
===Performance===
Morph targets do have some performance implications, however they're largely mitigable. Depending on the implementation, morph targets could have a very small performance impact that could be less than that of Qarl's deformer. This would mean more avatars could be in view using morph targets on more rigged meshes, enabling more people to experience the benefits of mesh clothing that fits properly.

Furthermore, morph targets could some day become an optimization to Qarl's deformer by precalculating the morph targets for a mesh on import. This would provide the potential performance benefits that morph targets provide, while still enabling an automatic solution for content creators to make use of.

==Morph Target Disadvantages==
Morph targets are not entirely a perfect solution. There are a few notable disadvantages relating to bandwidth usage, and potential workflow disadvantages relating to specific implementations.
===Bandwidth===
Morph targets require additional information to be encoded either within a mesh, or within a texture. This means that additional bandwidth will be required to transmit any mesh with morph targets.

The bandwidth cost could be mitigated by either determining what vertices have a "similar" position across different morph targets and simply reusing those values, by only including a partial vertex map for the morph target by excluding vertices that don't have unique positions in the vertex map, or by even using textures that can be loaded progressively.

The amount of bandwidth required to support morph targets will vary depending on the implementation approach taken.
===Workflow===
Although the workflow is largely more streamlined than that of rigging a mesh, it does require content creators learn how to efficiently create morph targets. This will vary largely upon the implementation approach taken to support morph targets on Second Life.
==Implementation Approaches==
There are a few possible implementation approaches. They each of their advantages and disadvantages associated with them.
===Vector Displacement Maps===
A vector displacement map encodes the positional information for a given vertex on a mesh. They can operate with relatively low overhead, and can be accessed through a vertex shader to displace an object's vertices. They can also be "baked" and transmitted to other viewers after a morph has been finalized. They're also capable of working with or without tessellation, and can operate reasonably well at lower resolutions.

They would also benefit from progressive loading, and could effectively function as a regular texture on the asset backend. Being regular images effectively means they can also take advantage of image compression.

They can also be used on practically any prim face as well, potentially paving the path towards a general purpose solution in the future for assigning morph targets to standard primitives, and virtually any arbitrary mesh in-world furthering the overall customization of in-world content.

The primary disadvantage to this technique, would be the ability to "copy" the content without the creator's permission by simply using the UUID to the VDM.
===Vertex Map Pruning===
Vertex map pruning would work by comparing the vertices in a morph target's values against the original positions of the associated positions of the vertices on the mesh. If they're within a particular threshold, those vertices could be discarded from the vertex map. An extension of this method could be to create a list of "similar" vertex positions, and having an optimization process in place that will "link" similar vertices across the vertex maps based upon their position.

This would help mitigate the bandwidth concerns, while also mitigating content theft concerns as meshes are not currently trivial to "copybot".
====Disadvantages====
The downside would be that this requires extensions to the mesh format that could create problems for older viewers that wouldn't support the new morph target functionality. Fallback mechanisms may need to be devised to ensure backwards compatibility. Performance may also become an issue, but ways to mitigate it is to expose a single vertex map to the GPU that contains interpolated vertex positions, from which the GPU can apply within a vertex program better enabling hardware acceleration on a wider range of hardware.

===Deformer Extensions===
Morph extensions could be thought of as a partial implementation of morph targets specifically for use in combination with Qarl's deformer. This would be a blend between Qarl's mesh deformer, and vertex map pruning.

The idea behind this is to define unique vertex positions that would then be encoded into a vertex map on the mesh, much like how morph targets work in general. The defining factor however, is the mesh deformer would do the majority of the deformation, with the morph target only containing the vertex positions that otherwise wouldn't be included if the content creator were to just rely on the mesh deformer.

Deformer extensions could be calculated upon upload, using the mesh deformer to help determine which portions of the morph targets to discard in the process.

This could be seen as a partial solution, and potentially has the highest level of bandwidth mitigation, while still retaining some of the control that full morph targets would give content creators.
====Disadvantages====
The biggest disadvantage with this would primarily involve educating content creators how to create morph targets that would yield the best results with this method.

==Proposed Initial Feature Set==
TBD
==Conclusion==
TBD

Morph Target Community Proposal

2012-07-20T03:36:34Z

Geenz Spad: /* Vertex Map Pruning */

This page is to contain the overall community proposal for "Morph Targets".

Please do not add to this page without authorization from a co-chair or a co-chair's assistant from the Content Creation Improvement User Group first. Please discuss any relevant points in the discussion tab in the wiki.
==What is a Morph Target?==
A morph target, also known as a blend shape, or a shape key in some 3D applications, is a special kind of "vertex map" containing the positions of vertices in relation to their original position on a mesh. They are relatively easy to work with, only requiring the content creator to "sculpt" or otherwise move the vertices on their meshes to the positions they'd like for a morph target.

Most 3D applications support authoring morph targets, such as Luxology Modo, Autodesk 3ds Max, Autodesk Maya, and Blender. The Collada file format also supports morph targets.
===What are they used for?===
Most modern video games use morph targets for complex animations that would otherwise be hard to accomplish with skeletal animation, such as facial animation, and even things like character customization. The viewer its self actually uses morph targets to enable avatar customization as-is.

A a small list of examples of what they could be used for in the context of Second Life include:
* Complex facial animations on rigged meshes
* Additional ways for a user to customize the appearance of their avatar
* Animating the surface of a prim without the need to use a custom skeleton
* Fine grained control for content creators over how their clothing deforms
==Caveats of Existing Techniques==
Existing techniques, such as RedPoly's proposed cBones technique and Qarl Fizz's Mesh Deformer, have their own disadvantages that morph targets are intended to either mitigate, or solve completely.

"cBones" as they're called, have the caveat of requiring content creators to rig many more bones than what would otherwise be necessary for simply animating a rigged mesh. It extends the workflow of rigging a mesh substantially into taking several hours of work; sometimes with a significant amount of trial and error. On top of that, a content creator sometimes is working "blind" with regards to what the final outcome will be in-world. This is not seen as an ideal workflow, as it increases the burden on content creators to produce this content. It does, however, provide more control over the deformation process, and is potentially faster than Qarl's mesh deformer.

Qarl's mesh deformer has the benefit, and caveat, of deforming a rigged mesh in accordance to the avatar's current shape automatically. The reason why some may see this as a caveat, is because this doesn't ensure correct deformation all the time. An example of where this may be undesirable can include custom mesh avatars, where the entire avatar mesh is replaced. A content creator may want to make their avatar's belly deform differently than the avatar mesh's belly does, or may want to have their avatar's breasts deform differently. This is a problem that morph targets could easily solve, by putting content creators in control of how a rigged mesh deforms. The mesh deformer also currently depends on the content creator making their content around a specific shape for it to work properly. Morph targets would lessen the need for this to some degree.
==Morph Target Advantages==
There are a few advantages of morph targets that existing solutions do not provide.
===Workflow===
Morph targets allow a content creator to literally "sculpt" how a morph target should appear, directly within their 3D application of choice. This gives them the ability to directly control over how a mesh "deforms" around the avatar, or in the context of rigged mesh replacement avatars, how an avatar "deforms". An ideal workflow would enable content creators to create a "morph map", a special vertex map in their 3D application of choice, and begin sculpting how that morph target should look in-world with respect to the associated avatar mesh morph target.

Each morph target currently should correspond to an existing morph target on the avatar mesh. Some examples include:
* Belly size
* Torso muscularity
* Saddle bags
* Body fat
* Breast size

There are already several pre-existing tools that can work with morph targets, and there's several ways morph targets can be tested. 3D modeling applications such as Autodesk Maya, Autodesk 3ds Max, and Luxology Modo all support morph targets out of the box, and the Collada file format also supports morph targets. One could effectively test different morph target combinations directly within their 3D modeling application of choice, or even existing game-engine toolsets. This would allow for content creators to rapidly iterate with their work, making adjustments on the fly with minimal slow down by cutting out the need to upload meshes to test their work.

Another workflow possibility is one could effectively "bake" the different potential morphs of a mesh, and simply tweak them until the content creator has the general effect they're looking for.
===Performance===
Morph targets do have some performance implications, however they're largely mitigable. Depending on the implementation, morph targets could have a very small performance impact that could be less than that of Qarl's deformer. This would mean more avatars could be in view using morph targets on more rigged meshes, enabling more people to experience the benefits of mesh clothing that fits properly.

Furthermore, morph targets could some day become an optimization to Qarl's deformer by precalculating the morph targets for a mesh on import. This would provide the potential performance benefits that morph targets provide, while still enabling an automatic solution for content creators to make use of.

==Morph Target Disadvantages==
Morph targets are not entirely a perfect solution. There are a few notable disadvantages relating to bandwidth usage, and potential workflow disadvantages relating to specific implementations.
===Bandwidth===
Morph targets require additional information to be encoded either within a mesh, or within a texture. This means that additional bandwidth will be required to transmit any mesh with morph targets.

The bandwidth cost could be mitigated by either determining what vertices have a "similar" position across different morph targets and simply reusing those values, by only including a partial vertex map for the morph target by excluding vertices that don't have unique positions in the vertex map, or by even using textures that can be loaded progressively.

The amount of bandwidth required to support morph targets will vary depending on the implementation approach taken.
===Workflow===
Although the workflow is largely more streamlined than that of rigging a mesh, it does require content creators learn how to efficiently create morph targets. This will vary largely upon the implementation approach taken to support morph targets on Second Life.
==Implementation Approaches==
There are a few possible implementation approaches. They each of their advantages and disadvantages associated with them.
===Vector Displacement Maps===
A vector displacement map encodes the positional information for a given vertex on a mesh. They can operate with relatively low overhead, and can be accessed through a vertex shader to displace an object's vertices. They can also be "baked" and transmitted to other viewers after a morph has been finalized. They're also capable of working with or without tessellation, and can operate reasonably well at lower resolutions.

They would also benefit from progressive loading, and could effectively function as a regular texture on the asset backend. Being regular images effectively means they can also take advantage of image compression.

They can also be used on practically any prim face as well, potentially paving the path towards a general purpose solution in the future for assigning morph targets to standard primitives, and virtually any arbitrary mesh in-world furthering the overall customization of in-world content.

The primary disadvantage to this technique, would be the ability to "copy" the content without the creator's permission by simply using the UUID to the VDM.
===Vertex Map Pruning===
Vertex map pruning would work by comparing the vertices in a morph target's values against the original positions of the associated positions of the vertices on the mesh. If they're within a particular threshold, those vertices could be discarded from the vertex map. An extension of this method could be to create a list of "similar" vertex positions, and having an optimization process in place that will "link" similar vertices across the vertex maps based upon their position.

This would help mitigate the bandwidth concerns, while also mitigating content theft concerns as meshes are not currently trivial to "copybot".
====Disadvantages====
The downside would be that this requires extensions to the mesh format that could create problems for older viewers that wouldn't support the new morph target functionality. Fallback mechanisms may need to be devised to ensure backwards compatibility. Performance may also become an issue, but ways to mitigate it is to expose a single vertex map to the GPU that contains interpolated vertex positions, from which the GPU can apply within a vertex program better enabling hardware acceleration on a wider range of hardware.

===Deformer Extensions===
Morph extensions could be thought of as a partial implementation of morph targets specifically for use in combination with Qarl's deformer. This would be a blend between Qarl's mesh deformer, and vertex map pruning.

The idea behind this is to define unique vertex positions that would then be encoded into a vertex map on the mesh, much like how morph targets work in general. The defining factor however, is the mesh deformer would do the majority of the deformation, with the morph target only containing the vertex positions that otherwise wouldn't be included if the content creator were to just rely on the mesh deformer.

Deformer extensions could be calculated upon upload, using the mesh deformer to help determine which portions of the morph targets to discard in the process.

This could be seen as a partial solution, and potentially has the highest level of bandwidth mitigation, while still retaining some of the control that full morph targets would give content creators.

The biggest disadvantage with this would primarily involve educating content creators how to create morph targets that would yield the best results with this method.

==Proposed Initial Feature Set==
TBD
==Conclusion==
TBD

Morph Target Community Proposal

2012-07-20T02:48:27Z

Geenz Spad: /* Morph Extensions */

This page is to contain the overall community proposal for "Morph Targets".

Please do not add to this page without authorization from a co-chair or a co-chair's assistant from the Content Creation Improvement User Group first. Please discuss any relevant points in the discussion tab in the wiki.
==What is a Morph Target?==
A morph target, also known as a blend shape, or a shape key in some 3D applications, is a special kind of "vertex map" containing the positions of vertices in relation to their original position on a mesh. They are relatively easy to work with, only requiring the content creator to "sculpt" or otherwise move the vertices on their meshes to the positions they'd like for a morph target.

Most 3D applications support authoring morph targets, such as Luxology Modo, Autodesk 3ds Max, Autodesk Maya, and Blender. The Collada file format also supports morph targets.
===What are they used for?===
Most modern video games use morph targets for complex animations that would otherwise be hard to accomplish with skeletal animation, such as facial animation, and even things like character customization. The viewer its self actually uses morph targets to enable avatar customization as-is.

A a small list of examples of what they could be used for in the context of Second Life include:
* Complex facial animations on rigged meshes
* Additional ways for a user to customize the appearance of their avatar
* Animating the surface of a prim without the need to use a custom skeleton
* Fine grained control for content creators over how their clothing deforms
==Caveats of Existing Techniques==
Existing techniques, such as RedPoly's proposed cBones technique and Qarl Fizz's Mesh Deformer, have their own disadvantages that morph targets are intended to either mitigate, or solve completely.

"cBones" as they're called, have the caveat of requiring content creators to rig many more bones than what would otherwise be necessary for simply animating a rigged mesh. It extends the workflow of rigging a mesh substantially into taking several hours of work; sometimes with a significant amount of trial and error. On top of that, a content creator sometimes is working "blind" with regards to what the final outcome will be in-world. This is not seen as an ideal workflow, as it increases the burden on content creators to produce this content. It does, however, provide more control over the deformation process, and is potentially faster than Qarl's mesh deformer.

Qarl's mesh deformer has the benefit, and caveat, of deforming a rigged mesh in accordance to the avatar's current shape automatically. The reason why some may see this as a caveat, is because this doesn't ensure correct deformation all the time. An example of where this may be undesirable can include custom mesh avatars, where the entire avatar mesh is replaced. A content creator may want to make their avatar's belly deform differently than the avatar mesh's belly does, or may want to have their avatar's breasts deform differently. This is a problem that morph targets could easily solve, by putting content creators in control of how a rigged mesh deforms. The mesh deformer also currently depends on the content creator making their content around a specific shape for it to work properly. Morph targets would lessen the need for this to some degree.
==Morph Target Advantages==
There are a few advantages of morph targets that existing solutions do not provide.
===Workflow===
Morph targets allow a content creator to literally "sculpt" how a morph target should appear, directly within their 3D application of choice. This gives them the ability to directly control over how a mesh "deforms" around the avatar, or in the context of rigged mesh replacement avatars, how an avatar "deforms". An ideal workflow would enable content creators to create a "morph map", a special vertex map in their 3D application of choice, and begin sculpting how that morph target should look in-world with respect to the associated avatar mesh morph target.

Each morph target currently should correspond to an existing morph target on the avatar mesh. Some examples include:
* Belly size
* Torso muscularity
* Saddle bags
* Body fat
* Breast size

There are already several pre-existing tools that can work with morph targets, and there's several ways morph targets can be tested. 3D modeling applications such as Autodesk Maya, Autodesk 3ds Max, and Luxology Modo all support morph targets out of the box, and the Collada file format also supports morph targets. One could effectively test different morph target combinations directly within their 3D modeling application of choice, or even existing game-engine toolsets. This would allow for content creators to rapidly iterate with their work, making adjustments on the fly with minimal slow down by cutting out the need to upload meshes to test their work.

Another workflow possibility is one could effectively "bake" the different potential morphs of a mesh, and simply tweak them until the content creator has the general effect they're looking for.
===Performance===
Morph targets do have some performance implications, however they're largely mitigable. Depending on the implementation, morph targets could have a very small performance impact that could be less than that of Qarl's deformer. This would mean more avatars could be in view using morph targets on more rigged meshes, enabling more people to experience the benefits of mesh clothing that fits properly.

Furthermore, morph targets could some day become an optimization to Qarl's deformer by precalculating the morph targets for a mesh on import. This would provide the potential performance benefits that morph targets provide, while still enabling an automatic solution for content creators to make use of.

==Morph Target Disadvantages==
Morph targets are not entirely a perfect solution. There are a few notable disadvantages relating to bandwidth usage, and potential workflow disadvantages relating to specific implementations.
===Bandwidth===
Morph targets require additional information to be encoded either within a mesh, or within a texture. This means that additional bandwidth will be required to transmit any mesh with morph targets.

The bandwidth cost could be mitigated by either determining what vertices have a "similar" position across different morph targets and simply reusing those values, by only including a partial vertex map for the morph target by excluding vertices that don't have unique positions in the vertex map, or by even using textures that can be loaded progressively.

The amount of bandwidth required to support morph targets will vary depending on the implementation approach taken.
===Workflow===
Although the workflow is largely more streamlined than that of rigging a mesh, it does require content creators learn how to efficiently create morph targets. This will vary largely upon the implementation approach taken to support morph targets on Second Life.
==Implementation Approaches==
There are a few possible implementation approaches. They each of their advantages and disadvantages associated with them.
===Vector Displacement Maps===
A vector displacement map encodes the positional information for a given vertex on a mesh. They can operate with relatively low overhead, and can be accessed through a vertex shader to displace an object's vertices. They can also be "baked" and transmitted to other viewers after a morph has been finalized. They're also capable of working with or without tessellation, and can operate reasonably well at lower resolutions.

They would also benefit from progressive loading, and could effectively function as a regular texture on the asset backend. Being regular images effectively means they can also take advantage of image compression.

They can also be used on practically any prim face as well, potentially paving the path towards a general purpose solution in the future for assigning morph targets to standard primitives, and virtually any arbitrary mesh in-world furthering the overall customization of in-world content.

The primary disadvantage to this technique, would be the ability to "copy" the content without the creator's permission by simply using the UUID to the VDM.
===Vertex Map Pruning===
Vertex map pruning would work by comparing the vertices in a morph target's values against the original positions of the associated positions of the vertices on the mesh. If they're within a particular threshold, those vertices could be discarded from the vertex map. An extension of this method could be to create a list of "similar" vertex positions, and having an optimization process in place that will "link" similar vertices across the vertex maps based upon their position.

This would help mitigate the bandwidth concerns, while also mitigating content theft concerns as meshes are not currently trivial to "copybot".

The downside would be that this requires extensions to the mesh format that could create problems for older viewers that wouldn't support the new morph target functionality. Fallback mechanisms may need to be devised to ensure backwards compatibility. Performance may also become an issue, but ways to mitigate it is to expose a single vertex map to the GPU that contains interpolated vertex positions, from which the GPU can apply within a vertex program better enabling hardware acceleration on a wider range of hardware.
===Deformer Extensions===
Morph extensions could be thought of as a partial implementation of morph targets specifically for use in combination with Qarl's deformer. This would be a blend between Qarl's mesh deformer, and vertex map pruning.

The idea behind this is to define unique vertex positions that would then be encoded into a vertex map on the mesh, much like how morph targets work in general. The defining factor however, is the mesh deformer would do the majority of the deformation, with the morph target only containing the vertex positions that otherwise wouldn't be included if the content creator were to just rely on the mesh deformer.

Deformer extensions could be calculated upon upload, using the mesh deformer to help determine which portions of the morph targets to discard in the process.

This could be seen as a partial solution, and potentially has the highest level of bandwidth mitigation, while still retaining some of the control that full morph targets would give content creators.

The biggest disadvantage with this would primarily involve educating content creators how to create morph targets that would yield the best results with this method.

==Proposed Initial Feature Set==
TBD
==Conclusion==
TBD

Morph Target Community Proposal

2012-07-20T02:30:22Z

Geenz Spad: /* Implementation Approaches */

Morph Target Community Proposal

2012-07-20T02:13:13Z

Geenz Spad:

Morph Target Community Proposal

2012-07-20T02:07:21Z

Geenz Spad: /* Morph Target Disadvantages */

Morph Target Community Proposal

2012-07-20T01:50:30Z

Geenz Spad: /* Morph Target Workflow */

Morph Target Community Proposal

2012-07-20T01:50:15Z

Geenz Spad: /* Morph Target Advantages */

Morph Target Community Proposal

2012-07-20T01:35:29Z

Geenz Spad: /* Morph Target Advantages */

Morph Target Community Proposal

2012-07-20T01:29:41Z

Geenz Spad:

Morph Target Community Proposal

2012-07-20T01:25:06Z

Geenz Spad:

Morph Target Community Proposal

2012-07-20T01:22:02Z

Geenz Spad:

Morph Target Community Proposal

2012-07-20T01:10:30Z

Geenz Spad:

Talk:Morph Target Community Proposal

2012-07-20T00:50:37Z

Geenz Spad:

==Guidelines for Morph Target Discussion==
Recommended usage guidelines for this discussion page:

When creating a topic on this page, you should "headline" each topic as such:

<nowiki>===My Awesome Topic===</nowiki>

Followed by the content you would like to discuss.

You should also "sign" each comment with four tildes as such:

<nowiki>===My Awesome Topic===</nowiki>

<nowiki>This topic is awesome. You should all discuss it. ~~~~</nowiki>

Which will look like:

===My Awesome Topic===
This topic is awesome. You should all discuss it. [[User:Geenz Spad|Geenz Spad]] 17:02, 19 July 2012 (PDT)

Please keep the discussion relevant to morph targets, and the proposal at hand. Irrelevant discussion will be removed, for reasons of keeping the discussion organized.

Please feel free to raise technical questions, user facing questions, and content creator facing questions as well. Please add your topics below the following headline.
==Topics==

Talk:Morph Target Community Proposal

2012-07-20T00:50:26Z

Geenz Spad: /* Guidelines for Morph Target Discussion */

==Guidelines for Morph Target Discussion==
Recommended usage guidelines for this discussion page:

When creating a topic on this page, you should "headline" each topic as such:

<nowiki>===My Awesome Topic===</nowiki>

Followed by the content you would like to discuss.

You should also "sign" each comment with four tildes as such:

<nowiki>===My Awesome Topic===</nowiki>

<nowiki>This topic is awesome. You should all discuss it. ~~~~</nowiki>

Which will look like:

==My Awesome Topic==
This topic is awesome. You should all discuss it. [[User:Geenz Spad|Geenz Spad]] 17:02, 19 July 2012 (PDT)

Please keep the discussion relevant to morph targets, and the proposal at hand. Irrelevant discussion will be removed, for reasons of keeping the discussion organized.

Please feel free to raise technical questions, user facing questions, and content creator facing questions as well. Please add your topics below the following headline.
==Topics==

Morph Target Community Proposal

2012-07-20T00:42:34Z

Geenz Spad:

Morph Target Community Proposal

2012-07-20T00:18:43Z

Geenz Spad: /* What are they used for? */

Morph Target Community Proposal

2012-07-20T00:14:37Z

Geenz Spad:

Talk:Morph Target Community Proposal

2012-07-20T00:03:13Z

Geenz Spad: /* My Awesome Topic */

==Guidelines for Morph Target Discussion==
Recommended usage guidelines for this discussion page:

When creating a topic on this page, you should "headline" each topic as such:

<nowiki>==My Awesome Topic==</nowiki>

Followed by the content you would like to discuss.

You should also "sign" each comment with four tildes as such:

<nowiki>==My Awesome Topic==</nowiki>

<nowiki>This topic is awesome. You should all discuss it. ~~~~</nowiki>

Which will look like:
==My Awesome Topic==
This topic is awesome. You should all discuss it. [[User:Geenz Spad|Geenz Spad]] 17:02, 19 July 2012 (PDT)

Please keep the discussion relevant to morph targets, and the proposal at hand. Irrelevant discussion will be removed, for reasons of keeping the discussion organized.

Please feel free to raise technical questions, user facing questions, and content creator facing questions as well. Please add your topics below the following headline.
==Topics==

Talk:Morph Target Community Proposal

2012-07-20T00:02:08Z

Geenz Spad: Created page with "==Guidelines for Morph Target Discussion== Recommended usage guidelines for this discussion page: When creating a topic on this page, you should "headline" each topic as such: …"

==Guidelines for Morph Target Discussion==
Recommended usage guidelines for this discussion page:

When creating a topic on this page, you should "headline" each topic as such:

<nowiki>==My Awesome Topic==</nowiki>

Followed by the content you would like to discuss.

You should also "sign" each comment with four tildes as such:

<nowiki>==My Awesome Topic==</nowiki>

<nowiki>This topic is awesome. You should all discuss it. ~~~~</nowiki>

Which will look like:
==My Awesome Topic==
This topic is awesome. You should all discuss it. [[User:Geenz Spad|Geenz Spad]] 17:02, 19 July 2012 (PDT)

Please keep the discussion relevant to morph targets, and the proposal at hand. Irrelevant discussion will be removed, for reasons of keeping the discussion organized.

Please feel free to raise technical questions, user facing questions, and content creator facing questions as well.

Morph Target Community Proposal

2012-07-19T23:54:46Z

Geenz Spad:

This page is to contain the overall community proposal for "Morph Targets".

A morph target is a special kind of "shape" that defines the position of vertices on a mesh. These "morph targets" can be used to reposition a mesh's vertices based upon a parameter that the user controls.

Please do not add to this page without authorization from a co-chair or a co-chair's assistant from the Content Creation Improvement User Group first. Please discuss any relevant points in the discussion tab in the wiki.