Second Life Wiki - User contributions [en]

User:Gordon Wendt

2013-08-24T05:34:18Z

Gordon Wendt:

<div id="background" style="border:2px solid #AAAAAA; background-color:#EEEEEE;padding:10; visibility: visible">

{{visl
|name=Gordon Wendt
|}}
{{skills
|Builder=*
|Scripter=*
|}}

{{SL-hCard/2.0
|account=Resident
|name=Gordon Wendt
|image=GW.jpg
|rezday=May 10th 2006
|fields={{SL-hCard/field|Achievements/Tasks|
*Builder
*Scripter
}}
}}

{| class="quote" id="DIS" style="width:auto; margin: auto; border:2px solid #FFCC00; padding:5px; background-color: #FFF0D9;" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="4"
| <center>''"Around here, however, we don't look backwards for very long. We keep moving forward, opening up new doors and doing new things, because we're curious...and curiosity keeps leading us down new paths."''

 '''-Walt Disney'''</center>
|}

{| class="quote" id="Random" style="width:auto; margin: auto; border:2px solid #CCCCCC; padding:5px; background-color: #FFFFFF;" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="4"
|[[Image:Icons_parature_warning.jpg]]
|<center>'''[[Special:Random|Error 42: Universe not found, please contact the mice for assistance]]'''</center>
|[[Image:Icons_parature_warning.jpg]]
|}

==People==
*{{User|Strife Onizuka}} - Too much useful stuff to actually describe here
*{{User|Zai Lynch}} - Wizard of the wiki markup
*{{User|Michelle2 Zenovka}} - Great cmake instructions for building the viewer
*{{User|Lex Neva}} - again, too many great contributions to count and/or describe
*{{User|Harleen Gretzky}} - one of the great people on the JIRA
*{{User|Jesse Barnett}} - Scripter Extraordinaire

== Useful pages ==
* [[:Category:Wizardry and Steamworks]] - only an archive now but has some useful things

*[[Special:Random]] - Directs to a random page on the wiki
*[[Special:SpecialPages]] - A list of all the special pages for the wiki
*[[Help:Editors_Toolbox]] - A list of helpful wiki templates
*[http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Magic_words Mediawiki magic words page]

== Miscellaneous ==
[[/sandbox]] - an internal sandbox I use to test various wiki specific changes.

[[/testbed]] - For posting my experimental ideas including scripts, scraps of code, etc... --- USE AT YOUR OWN RISK

[[/scripts]] - Some scripts that I have written that I am freely releasing

[[/snippets]] - Code snippets I"m freely releasing for anyone to use

__NOINDEX__
__NOTOC__
__NOEDITSECTION__

[[Category:English speaking Volunteers|Gordon Wendt]]
[[Category:English speaking Residents|Gordon Wendt]]

User:Gordon Wendt

2013-08-24T05:32:54Z

Gordon Wendt:

User:Gordon Wendt

2013-08-24T05:32:12Z

Gordon Wendt: fixing link

User:Gordon Wendt/blacklist

2013-08-24T05:31:34Z

Gordon Wendt: Replaced content with "{{delete|requesting deletion of this long unused subpage of my userpage}}"

{{delete|requesting deletion of this long unused subpage of my userpage}}

User:Gordon Wendt/watchlist

2013-08-24T05:31:12Z

Gordon Wendt:

{{delete|requesting deletion of this long unused subpage of my userpage}}

<noinclude>'''This list is the list that I use to keep track of various JIRA issues that I am watching for one reason or another.

'''Disclaimer:''' These issues are linked from here based on my reasons and my reasons alone, I may summarize why I have an issue on this list next to the listing or I may not and feel free to ask me why an issue is on this list however I may very well decline to comment.
</noinclude>

== The List ==
* {{jira|VWR-10234}}
** Watching for changes, will import to bug triage agenda if more info is given. [[User:Gordon_Wendt|''GW'']] ([[User talk:Gordon_Wendt|T]]|[[Special:Contributions/Gordon Wendt|C]]) -- 20:41, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

User:Gordon Wendt

2013-08-24T05:30:32Z

Gordon Wendt: removing more cruft

User:Gordon Wendt

2013-08-24T05:27:14Z

Gordon Wendt: removing some old info

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__NOEDITSECTION__
{{/gridlist}}

{{visl
|name=Gordon Wendt
|}}
{{skills
|Builder=*
|Scripter=*
|}}

{{SL-hCard/2.0
|account=Resident
|name=Gordon Wendt
|image=GW.jpg
|rezday=May 10th 2006 -- {{CountDown|10|05|2010| {{#var:a}} days until my rez day|Today is my rez day|Companion Cube not found}}
|fields={{SL-hCard/field|Achievements/Tasks|
*[[Mentor]]
*Builder
*Scripter
*Tester
*

|links=
*[http://www.twitter.com/GWendt GWendt]
}}
}}

__TOC__

{| class="quote" id="DIS" style="width:auto; margin: auto; border:2px solid #FFCC00; padding:5px; background-color: #FFF0D9;" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="4"
| <center>''"Around here, however, we don't look backwards for very long. We keep moving forward, opening up new doors and doing new things, because we're curious...and curiosity keeps leading us down new paths."''

 '''-Walt Disney'''</center>
|}

{| class="quote" id="Random" style="width:auto; margin: auto; border:2px solid #CCCCCC; padding:5px; background-color: #FFFFFF;" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="4"
|[[Image:Icons_parature_warning.jpg]]
|<center>'''[[Special:Random|Error 42: Universe not found, please contact the mice for assistance]]'''</center>
|[[Image:Icons_parature_warning.jpg]]
|}

== JIRA ==

=== General ===
*[http://jira.secondlife.com/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?reset=true&&created%3Aprevious=-1d&sorter/field=issuekey&sorter/order=DESC Issues created in the last 24 hours]
*[http://jira.secondlife.com/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?reset=true&&updated%3Aprevious=-1d&sorter/field=issuekey&sorter/order=DESC Issues updated in the last 24 hours]

=== Specific to me ===
{{Jira Reporter}}


==People==
*{{User|Strife Onizuka}} - Too much useful stuff to actually describe here
*{{User|Zai Lynch}} - Wizard of the wiki markup
*{{User|Michelle2 Zenovka}} - Great cmake instructions for building the viewer
*{{User|Lex Neva}} - again, too many great contributions to count and/or describe
*{{User|Harleen Gretzky}} - one of the great people on the JIRA
*{{User|Jesse Barnett}} - Scripter Extraordinaire

==Meetings I try to attend==
*[[Bug triage]] - The main page for the bug triage meetings
*[[Open Source Meeting]] - The main page for the open source meetings
*[[User Experience Interest Group]] - The main for the User Experience Interest Group Meetings

== Useful pages ==
*[[Special:OldReviewedPages]] - Old reviewed pages --- RESTRICTED ACCESS TO REVIEWERS AND ADMINS
*[[Special:Random]] - Directs to a random page on the wiki
*[[Special:SpecialPages]] - A list of all the special pages for the wiki
*[[Submitting_code]] - Info on how to submit code as well as the proper way to create a patch
*[[Office Hours]] - A listing of all the Lindens' Office Hours
*[[Help:Editors_Toolbox]] - A list of helpful wiki templates
*[http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Magic_words Mediawiki magic words page]

== Miscellaneous ==
[[/sandbox]] - an internal sandbox I use to test various wiki specific changes.

[[/testbed]] - For posting my experimental ideas including scripts, scraps of code, etc... --- USE AT YOUR OWN RISK

[[/scripts]] - Some scripts that I have written that I am freely releasing

[[/snippets]] - Code snippets I"m freely releasing for anyone to use

[[Category:English speaking Volunteers|Gordon Wendt]]
[[Category:English speaking Residents|Gordon Wendt]]

Marketplace User Group

2011-03-04T19:47:52Z

Gordon Wendt: updating next meeting time

{{User Group Page
|purpose=To communicate Marketplace updates on upcoming and recent changes, address Merchant submitted agenda items, and answer Merchant submitted questions.
|date-time= The first Tuesday of odd months at 5pm PST and the first Wednesday of even months at 10am PST. The next meeting is April 6, 2011 at 10am
|location= [http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Linden%20Estate%20Services4/239/23/29 SLurl 1] [http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Linden%20Estate%20Services3/22/19/29 SLurl 2] [http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Linden%20Estate%20Services2/23/238/29 SLurl 3] [http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Linden%20Estate%20Services/246/232/28 SLurl 4]
|team=
|agenda=

Agenda Items:
* Overview of recent releases
* Upcoming search option changes as related to Maturity
* Updates on topics previously submitted via a survey. Here are the top topics:
** Store Customization (i.e. branding, landing pages, sorting)
** Inventory Delivery/Sync (i.e. replacing Magic Boxes)
** Reporting/History (i.e. better reporting, additional data)
** Merchant/Linden Lab Communication
** Store Management (i.e. bulk image upload, free test delivery, etc)

SURVEY IS NOW CLOSED.

Meeting Format:
* The above agenda items will be covered (including the ones previously submitted via the survey).
* ONE Named Linden will be designated to receive questions from attendees: these questions will be addressed after the update on each section has been given.
* Questions posted in local chat will not be addressed unless they are also sent to the Linden handling questions.
* As time allows, questions not related to topics on the agenda will be addressed at the end of the meeting.
|archive= [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Brooke_Linden Archive]
}}

User talk:Zai Lynch

2009-11-08T15:03:43Z

Gordon Wendt: /* User_talk:Soft_Linden#sensor_caveat */ new section

{{User:Zai Lynch/TalkpageNav}}

== That dang Advanced menu ==

Hey Zai, the Knowledge Base isn't meant to cover unsupported stuff, as useful as it may be (like [[Rebaking textures]]). I encourage simply linking to the [[Advanced]] page instead of typing the keystroke each time to activate, so that Residents are well-apprised of its benefits AND what they should NOT expect. =) '''- [[Image:Torley-favicon.png]] [[User:Torley Linden|Torley]] on 2009-11-02 @ 3:38 PM PST'''
:Ah, ok, NP. :-)
:BTW: Something weird happened to the article... I made my edit and validated it. Then you made your edit and validated it.
:Expected would be, that it shows your version as default (stable) and that there is ''no draft'' anymore since yours was the latest edit.
:However, it is showing yours as default and mine as draft. This is a little strange. It might be that we were both editing at the same time and that this was causing it. I'll fix it in a few, but wanted to mention it, since it's unexpected and may lead to unwanted outcome in the future, when it's unnoticed. (An editor editing your stable page will automatically be prompted to my draft. This isn't desired behaviour.)
:More BTW: I'd like to incorporate parts of [[User:Lum Pfohl/Troubleshooting#Avatar Covered With Onscreen Textures]] in the article (she mentioned to be fine with using her content in other articles). Also an explanation about how baking works, since it's often mentioned by Residents that "''it can't be my system, since other people are seeing it too!''". They need to understand that ''their'' system is not just baking but also ''distributing'' the textures. It seems to be technical overkill but when they don't understand that part, then they might dismiss the article and search for another, since they might think that it's not covering their problem.
:And something completly different: When moving pages to a new spot, please move them including all subpages (I think there should always be a checkbox for that). Reason is, to not bury the redirects to translated pages (e.g. <pagename>/de, <pagename>/fr, etc.).
:Hm... I think that was all for the moment. And I should go to bed ^^
:--[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 00:05, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
::I see I didn't look to closely and what you added meanwhile. The sentence "''These defects are visible to other people...''" might be enough for the above mentioned problem.
::--[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 00:24, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

== [[User_talk:Soft_Linden#sensor_caveat]] ==

Strife and Zai, Just a note to ask if you can keep an eye on [[User_talk:Soft_Linden#sensor_caveat]], I noticed that it's linked at least twice on [[Sensor]] and quite possibly a few other places (unfortunately there's no what links here for header anchors) so if Soft archives the discussion it will break a bunch of links. I'm not about to go on Soft's talk page and ask him not to ever archive a discussion but since you two keep a very close eye on anything that changes anywhere on the wiki I figured you might see if it's ever disturbed. Thanks. [[User:Gordon_Wendt|''GW'']] ([[User talk:Gordon_Wendt|T]]|[[Special:Contributions/Gordon Wendt|C]]) -- 15:03, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

User talk:Strife Onizuka

2009-11-08T15:03:36Z

Gordon Wendt: /* User_talk:Soft_Linden#sensor_caveat */ new section

{{:User:Zai_Lynch/Award}}You found my talk page... Find old discussions at: [[User:Strife_Onizuka/Talkpage_Archive_01]]

== Question about [[Template:Multi-lang]] ==
Heyas =) 
I was trying to add the new ''version'' feature to the [[Template:Help/de|help template]] and stumbled upon a difficulty where I hoped you could help me with... I made a testpage at [[User:Zai Lynch/Sandbox/MLtest/de]] but it acts weird... when i make a change to [[User:Zai_Lynch/Sandbox/MLtest/version]] then the box is displayed at the test page. When I just edit and save the test page (without changing anything) it eats up the language bar. It acts somehow unexpectedly/random. I don't really know why it is... (o.O) Any ideas? 
[[Image:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 19:42, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
:I'll take a look at the template and fidget with it. No ideas come to mind. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 20:00, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
::Kewl, thx! :-)
::And I'll go to bed as early as 9PM for the first time in ages (o.O) gotta be ill... ^^
::<nowiki>*</nowiki>sleepy* [[Image:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 20:07, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
:hm... the bug seems to be very strange. And it isn't part of the template.
:Please try the following and tell me what you see:
:*Log out of the Wiki and then browse to [[Quickie_Wiki_Intro/Usercategories]] (or [[User:Zai_Lynch/Sandbox/MLtest/de]]). Notice: there is a language bar on top
:*Log in the Wiki and look at the same page. Notice: Language bar is gone.
:*Edit the article and preview. Notice: Language bar is visible in preview.
:*Save the article. Notice: Language bar is gone again.
:*Go to [[Special:Preferences]] and change the interface language (to German, for example). Notice: The language bar is visible...
:*Change the language back to English. Notice: The language bar is gone again...
:o.O [[Image:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 07:47, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
::Had to sacrifice a (unused) feature but it's working now. Weird bug nevertheless... Sorry for spamming
::[[Image:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 02:16, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

== grid list ==

Strife, I was wondering if you'd mind if I took the idea from the grids and downloads list that you have and turned it into a template since I know of a few places (my userpage for one :) ) where it could be useful and I didn't just want to copy off the code especially without your permission. [[User:Gordon Wendt|Gordon Wendt]] 16:34, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

:Do what you want with it, I didn't put it in the global space because...
:*Make changes without having to fix what it breaks.
:*Unsure about who would want to use it.
:*Didn't want to fix my content when others changed it.
:To recap, you are welcome to reuse the code. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 20:24, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

== LSL Category Localization Template ==

Heyas! =) 
It's me again... I wanted to ask for feedback/input on these two templates: [[User:Zai_Lynch/Sandbox/Template:LSL_Cat_L10n/de|German]], [[User:Zai_Lynch/Sandbox/Template:LSL_Cat_L10n/fr|French]]. It would be supposed to easily provide unified localized LSL cats so translators wouldn't accidentally connect an article to a wrong category when they'd choose another translation for the same word. I implemented a small test version in [[Template:LSL Function/de]], [[Template:LSL Event/de]], [[Template:LSL Constant/de]], [[Template:LSLC/de]] and [[Template:LSLGC/de]]. I tried about 5 different ways of implementing the template itself (without database-slaves) but they all failed due to either wiki limitations or parser function bugs (it worked well in the sandbox wiki). I'd like to try it in the German localization (can't break much content there at the moment...) and in case it works out fine, Gally would be willing to help me for the French implementation. Do you have any objections against the template (could it break something? slow the wiki down?) or input, thoughts, ...? Are there more templates besides the 5 I already altered, where I should pay attention to? 
Greetz, [[Image:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 00:35, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

:I've given a lot of thought to slaves in the past (there was a time I wanted a centralized function/constant/event description lookup for the "Also..." section). The correct way to implement them is to have a slave for each letter, the advantage is that slaves can have slaves. If implemented properly the cost is very small. The problem however is that you have to be conscious of the format. If you want to change the format you have to change the entire DB. I believe the best solution is to version each of the entries. Now at this point you need to take a step back and ask "Am I reinventing the wheel?" And the answer is "Yes". Essentially what you want is a database where you can feed it a key and get the stored value pair.

:There is of course another solution to this problem. Make all the Categories smart so they can be included (like the PRIM_* flags), and pass it a parameter that tells it to only return the foreign language category name you specify OR you could make a subpage like we do for the translation version (which would be really smart) and just have the lookup table there.

:Anywho there are my initial thoughts on this. Last time I checked MW executes both sides of a conditional, so you need to make it so what is inside the conditional is not the template but just the name of the template (so it only executes text and not a template). -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 01:42, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

::Thx for the feedback =)
::@Slaves: I didn't wanted to use any slaves for this. My goal was, to have all translations stored on one page so that only that one needed to be localized. Unfortunatly, the else-if chain exceeded the maximum depth allowed by the mediawiki. So I tried to break the chain into two chains and store a variable value in case the first chain didn't give a result, so the second chain starts. This [http://wiki.zeitenwerk.de/index.php/Template:LSL_Cat_L10n/de works in the sandbox] but not over here due to [[Help:Known_caveats_in_parser_functions|the nasty bug you mentioned as well]]. I also tried a recursive process where the template called itself with a value but the Wiki complained again (it doesn't like loops...). After two other work arounds failed too, I had to create the slaves to do the job... But I'm not really happy with that solution since it splits my database into 2. Splitting it further (for every letter) would erase one of the benefits: easy localization. I think the database (around 100 terms in worst case, usually less cause not all terms need a translation) is to small to justify that.
::The smart cat version is a way I thought about too (and Gally had a similar idea to unify categories on translated subpages), but the problem with it would be again that it is a decentralized implementation. Someone who wants to begin with a new translation of the portal would have to edit all smart-cat pages instead of only one (or two) database pages. So I would consider this method in case it notably decreases the load on the Wiki. I don't know how computationally intensive it is for the Wiki to check the current database slaves. In case it's to much, I'd like the subpage-lookup best. With some preperation (collecting translations for more than one language, like done with the [[Mentor_Linguist_Scribe_Translation_Project/HP_L10N|HP L10n]]) and then add them all when we got maybe 5 or 6 languages.
::[[Image:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 17:03, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

:::You would actually want to use "switch" instead of "ifeq", that said, you don't want to have a huge switch statement, it's not good for the wiki. Huge templates take a long time to execute (take a look at the templates on [[LSO]], they take so long to rebuild that the connection times out and the wiki has a fit). Anyway you cut it, to add a new language would require duplicating the slave DB. It would not be fun. You may gain some centralization by having the Slave DB but to keep it from bringing the wiki to it's knees you won't have much. If we decide to forgo the centralization altogether and go with a system like the article versioning, we can solve several problems all at once that would have popped up as a result of having it in a DB. If we do it properly we can set it up like multi-lang with the articles in need of translation. Sure it would be a bear to setup for each language but the alternatives just don't scale or require maintenance to allow it to scale. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 04:25, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

::::Just to make sure that we're on the same page: I meant one DB (or X slaves) for each language. Not one DB for all languages. The German templates would only call the German DB, French only French, etc. So the maximum else-if depth got an upper bound at the count of LSL cats (worst case, when every cat has a translation other than cat/ISO-CODE) which seems to be something between 100 and 110.
::::That beeing said, I got to agree about the [[LSO]] article. I also checked the L10n lookup database and got to say that it needs like forever to load... Might be since I included it a hundret times in the table to verify that all translations work right and (since most of the translations are missing) it needs to run the else-if chain till the end. So it would only be included about 4 times on an average article I guess. Load would then be roughly ((current load)/100)*4 + (load of other templates).
::::So I think we'll go with the smart-cat-subpage-lookup? I'd then need a complete list of LSL cats to hand them out to linguists to translate. I ''think'' the [[User:Zai_Lynch/Sandbox/Template:LSL_Cat_L10n/de|table]] should be complete but I'm not 100% sure. For implementation we'd need to take care of the input format. French translations use "cat/fr" as input while Japanese and German translations just use "cat". So we'd either need to add these differences at the subpages (bad imho) or make the template unify the input before passing it to the lookup (better imho).
::::[[Image:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 14:46, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

:::::It won't be ((current load)/100)*4 + (load of other templates), it will be (current load)*4 + (load of other templates); there is no speed gain to my knowledge to a big switch statement (that I know of), it's O(N), not O(1). You probably don't want more than 25 items per slave, properly configured, it won't be much more costly then the slaves. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 01:27, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

::::::Currently, the template is included about 100 times in the table. At an average article, it would be only included maybe 3, 4 or 5 times. So it would be ((the load of the 100 includes table) / 100) * (number of inclusions in the article). That is what I meant. Not the else-if depth or the switch.
::::::[[Image:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 01:37, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

== MIA ==
Ouch, I hope you get yourself setup soon with a new job and computer, your a valuable member of the community and it would be somewhat depressing to lose you. I wish you good luck. --[[User:Nexii Malthus|Nexii Malthus]] 10:53, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

What Nexii said... *adds home, job and PC to Santa's list for Strife, as well as a four leaf clover and a fresh polished horseshoe for the x-tra boost of luck* [[Image:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 13:37, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

:It all basically means I can't write scripts, login to SL or do much template work (alignment gets funky at smaller than 100% zoom). -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 01:31, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

take care... (o.O) hope you're one of [http://www.xkcd.com/466/ them] and we'll have you back soon. *hugz* [[Image:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 22:57, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

: *Borrows a computer* for the moment things are ok, after the holidays things will be a mess... *hugs* -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 17:04, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

== Geek Award ==
LOL. That really makes my day. As to the inspiration... I got sick of having to manually double embed templates to avoid the call cost. I had been wanting a null/empty template so I could have an if on the template name and so nothing would get included... but then I'm like, why not a variable template? So I start to write it and I'm then like? What to name it... I know "Template". On review though, the null/empty template is the better idea. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 21:44, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
:Glad you like it (^_^)
:Can you explain why an empty template is reducing the load on the Wiki when you call it with a parser function as an argument? Has it got something to do with {{Jira|WEB-896}}?
:[[Image:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 22:45, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
::Yep it has to do with {{Jira|WEB-896}}. Say you had the following code but you wanted it conditional:
::<code><nowiki>{{ugly|ugly param1|ugly param2}}</nowiki></code>
::The easy thing would be to just wrap it:
::<code><nowiki>{{#if:{{{test|}}}|{{ugly|ugly param1|ugly param2}}}}</nowiki></code>
::The problem is, Template:Ugly gets evaluated (and it effects #vars).
::Lets look at this solution:
::<code><nowiki>{{{{#if:{{{test|}}}|ugly|/dev/null}}|ugly param1|ugly param2}}</nowiki></code>
::By putting the conditional around the name of the template, when the test fails it evaluates Template:/dev/null ... which does nothing, and with MediaWiki 1.12 template parameters aren't evaluated until they are first used by the template; so in this case, they are never evaluated. It gets us around the ugly problem of conditional templates getting called needlessly.

::Historically I've used Template:! instead of /dev/null, for the only reason I hadn't gotten around to making the /dev/null template. This of course had it's own problems (specifically that it inserted a | (pipe character)). I'll probably start converting things over to /dev/null when I do template updates.

::P.S. You nailed it on the head though, Template:Template is the result of me giving into my more nerdy tendencies. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 23:49, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
:::Oh I get it. Is really a pretty creative work around! [[Image:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 03:01, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
Haha, nice award. Template:Template is definitely something interesting. --[[User:Nexii Malthus|Nexii Malthus]] 02:11, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

== Widgets ==

[[User:Kuraiko Yoshikawa|Kuraiko]] added the [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Widgets widgets extension] to [http://wiki.zeitenwerk.de our sandbox] and added [http://wiki.zeitenwerk.de/index.php/User:BlindWanderer your account] to the widget editors group. So if you'd like to play arround with widgets in a sandboxed SLwiki-like environment in order to develop some for this Wiki, you can have a look there when you're back and got time and so... Keep in mind that parser functions are acting slightly different, but the rest should be the same and the content isn't so much outdated (maybe a few month old). Have fun =) I hope it will all turn out well for you soon... oh btw: you got mail. Outdated though. Greetz, [[Image:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 02:10, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

== Notecard campaign to M Linden ==

I have been distributing this notecard:

[If you agree, please remove this line, replace the signature below, and send to M]

M,

Please hire Strife Onizuka; please read his user page:

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Strife_Onizuka

I don't know him personally, only through his volunteer work,
and I'm not related to him or interested in this financially.

Would you please ask the Lindens in the HR department to read
https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Strife_Onizuka and see if
he's ever applied, and if not, invite him to using his email
address on file, and if so, resubmit him to jobs
http://lindenlab.hrmdirect.com/employment/view.php?req=27066 and
http://lindenlab.hrmdirect.com/employment/view.php?req=26066 ?

Thank you.

JS Uralia
[[User:JS Uralia|JS Uralia]] 03:26, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

:As awesome as that is, I somehow have a feeling M Linden would be too overwhelmed with other inventory gives, IMs and other dialogs. --[[User:Nexii Malthus|Nexii Malthus]] 17:47, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

:I haven't applied for a job with LL in 4 1/2 years. The triage job doesn't sound like a job I would want to do on a full time basis. With all honesty I don't think I'm skilled enough to be a senior developer for LL; I've met several of them and I don't feel I'm smart enough. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 21:45, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

::I didn't knew if I should answer to the topic, though I need to disagree now. I can not tell about your knowledge in C/C++ (etc.) or about the needed experience for the job. You might be lacking either or both and that might be the reason for not applying. But you're definatly '''not''' lacking smartness in any way. You've proofen that uncountable times.
::[[Image:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 05:20, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

==WB==
Glad to see you're still out there! Lack of life signals made me worry :-S Hope you're ok... [[Image:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 02:33, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

:Just stealing some time to catch things up. Things are pretty dull (to the point of insanity) here, I got a job working 3rd shift at a convenience store. The work is ok and the pay isn't terrible but it isn't something I want to do for much longer (I took the job to see if I could do it). My right knee started complaining in October and just a couple weeks ago my left joined the rebellion (along with a pain in my lower lumbar, though stretches help with that... now I can just about touch my toes). My flat feet determine how many days a week I can work, turns out two days on and one day off is what I have to do to avoid stabbing foot pain. My carpal tunnel fortunately enough has not reared it's ugly head. Any who, I figure it will look good on a Resume. With the economy as it is, I don't know when I'll get my computer fixed. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 03:26, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

::Sounds as if you're having a tough time. Was hoping for something more disney-esque to colorize your life... I don't really have an idea how, but in case I can help with anything, ping me via mail or here or so anytime! And leave a lifesign every couple of weeks plz (o.O)
::[[Image:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 17:12, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

:I wish you good luck! And thank you for updating [[LSL http server/examples]] with your correction :) --[[User:Opensource Obscure|oobscure]] 00:05, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

:: NP, It happens that the (keyword) change is the result of one of my feature suggestions. It's nice to know that I may be disconnected but not out of mind.
:: I like to think of it as that part of the movie where the bad guy has it all his own way right before the hero makes a comeback. The job has been a good thing for me though, it's taken a bit of the cynicism away and dowsed the growing self-entitlement. The years of being a forum moderator took a lot of the cartilage off my personality; the job has forced some of it to regrow, for me to be less abrasive. The one thing it does lack is that "It's ALIVE, Mohohahaha" feeling you get with programming. Programming is chiseling you ego, your expertise, your farsightedness in stone; cleaning and stocking shelves is just pushing a boulder up hill, though serving customers has it's rewards. It is nice to be able to work with people, I missed that doing freelance programming. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 16:58, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

:::Thx for enhancing the function with the bitwise shift! =) I gotta confess that I had no clue about that operator.
:::@ <nowiki>{{</nowiki>[[Template:Dev/null|dev/null]]}}: I'm not sure if it's still needed, since we finally got an up-to-date parser functions extension ({{Jira|WEB-896}}) and it might not execute both sides of the conditional anymore. And we got Cite! Still no collabsible tables tho...
:::Your ability to analyze yourself and look at the positive side of thinks is... Just wonderful :-) Miss that so often when people tell about their lifes. Keep that! It's refreshing =)
:::[[Image:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 22:44, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

== Re: [[User:Zai Lynch/Talkpage_Archive_02#Free Hugs... Beware!|Free Hugs... Beware!]] ==
Had to think about you when I noticed [http://www.asofterworld.com/index.php?id=410 more free hugs at a softer world.] (^_^) --[[Image:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 15:31, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

== Categorization ==

I've been running through [[Special:UncategorizedCategories]] trying to cut down the number of entries there.

I've reverted the help portal mod to [[:Category:LSL]] ^_^

[[User:SignpostMarv Martin|SignpostMarv Martin]] 21:23, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

== Wiki Contributors==
Heyas :-) 
2 questions:
#Did I [[User_talk:Zai_Lynch#Recommendations_for_wiki_superusers|miss someone]]?
#[[Template:ZWSP]] (and ZWJ + ZWNJ)...? Can you name a possible usecase for the first one and tell what the other two are going to be about? (o.O)
Greetz ^^ [[Image:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 00:20, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
::ZWSP is the name of the character (Zero Width SPace), it might be useful when you need to kick the wiki engine into doing something that the parser doesn't want to let you do (like having a # as the lead character as a result in an #if and not have it put it on a new line *rolls eyes*). The other two, Zero Width Joiner and Zero Width No Joiner, are similar character, according to Unicode they cause certain characters to take on different forms when put next to each other (combination characters: Mayan? Chinese?). I really wanted Zero Width Non Breaking Space but my computers font doesn't support it (it would have been really useful, it would be a character that I could put anywhere, you wouldn't see it and it would have no effect except on the wiki engine) oh well. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 03:14, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
:::Ah, yuss, makes sense as first character of the line. I'd <nowiki><nowiki>#</nowiki></nowiki> but <nowiki>{{ZWSP}}#</nowiki> is nicer. Thanks for the explanation :-) Added it to the [[Help:Editors Toolbox|toolbox]].
:::--[[Image:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 11:27, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
Why didn't I think of <nowiki><nowiki></nowiki>? -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 17:16, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
:Would have been to easy ;-) *hugz* [[Image:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 21:52, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

== Because I don't say it enough ==
And haven't said it recently to you but I should tell you directly, despite the emotional limitations of words: thanks for continuing to persist and relentlessly contribute to this wiki and to broader understanding of technical knowledge for so many Residents, AND myself! Since the beginning of my SL and seeing your tortured prim display, you've been influential on the later decisions I'd make to ''enlighten'' our communities. '''- [[Image:Torley-favicon.png]] [[User:Torley Linden|Torley]] on 2009-04-17 @ 10:29 AM PST'''

:I'm not the type to point out the obvious... I consider a lot obvious that others don't. I often don't say what's important because of this, or what should be said or even what needs to be said.

:You are one of SL's greatest assets, you have done not just good works but great works. You have carried the torch of enlightenment better than anyone else. When others around you had lost their cool you kept yours. I have always struggled to achieve the completeness your works exude, you make me strive to do better, your work has always inspired me. You honor me too much. It has been an honor to work with. It has been an honor to be your friend and I am honored to have inspired you.

:For me the inspiration came from the short science fiction stories that I grew up on, the stories that shaped the minds of the computer communities of the 70's and 80's. The stories that had a kernel of truth in them: the context of the stories turned from science fiction into fact as hardware and software evolved. Stories that talked about governmental abuses, untrustworthy 3rd parties and the erosion of rights & privileges that are now all to poignant and relevant. I came by the ideals of GNU honestly and they left a deep impression on me. Why try to dam and control the rivers of information, to push it into canals and reservoirs only to portion out small amounts? Let the information go where it wants, give people access to it, let them work with it, they will amaze with what they do with it. But this isn't the 80's or even the 90's and that ideology just doesn't work anymore, there is a dark side to it which people have focused on; they have trouble focusing on enlightenment. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 21:31, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

== You asked me to elaborate on my recent edit to llGetLocalPos() ==

Although I sent you a note in world I have not heard back from you as yet. I tested the return of the function in the same object as both physical and not. It returns the same vector!!?? I have thus removed my edit. However in my defence I will say that I only added what is stated in the lsl script (when hoverng over the function with the mouse pointer). I don't understand why "If the script isn't physical" is mentioned. Perhaps you could be so good as to explain sometime. Not sorry but confused.

Eddy.

:I don't get in world very often unfortunately... (my main computer died and this one is pretty crappy, the experience isn't fun). My perspective has been: The tooltips are often wrong and should not be trusted. That said, if you find one that is wrong you should open a [jira.secondlife.com jira issue]. In the past LL was really bad about LSL documentation (they still are but they are getting better), both forms they provided (tooltips being one) were often wrong and incomplete; and this was the driving force behind the community creating it's own wiki. This and other things LL did jaded the community. Trust has been a big issue, many of the older scripters have developed a high level of apathy and just don't report bugs. It's a sad state of affairs but generally getting better as LL becomes more responsive. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 20:34, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

:Thanx for the rapid response. Although I really don't know if the tooltip is wrong. My limited experience does not really qualify me to say. I just tested what happened in physical static, physical moving and non physical and the same vector was returned in all 3 cases. I see this as "proof" that the function acts the same way whether in a physical script or not but then my cyber kitty isn't going or a walk as it should and I can't find any good reason why not. So I am perhaps not the best judge of whether this is a JIRA worthy issue. If I KNOW something to be wrong I will report it (as I have) but I really think it would be better for someone with more experience to test this one out before it's brought to the attention of the world wide wiki!! (About my kitty...I am begining to wonder if I have found another bug to be honest. I seem to have a knack for it)

Cheers for now, Eddy.

:I didn't remember it acting differently between physical and non-physical but I was giving you the benefit of the doubt (you might have done original research). It's frowned upon to post something vague like what you did in the documentation, stuff like that should be posted on the discussion page; it just isn't useful to document that there is a difference but not to document what that difference is. It's bad style to post things you haven't verified, it can be disruptive and counter productive. You are new, we understand, you are forgiven. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 21:12, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Turns out kitty was just being fussy about her vectors. Sometimes the compiler is a little less than specific when it matters eh? Anyway I will watch my additions carefully and be sure to only add what is true, accurate and relevent (of course this would be easier if LL didn't do the oposite in there own scripts). TTFN

== Might I draw your attention to llGetLocalRot() ? Within this very wiki.==

Another case of "(If the script isn't physical)". I didn't do it!! lolz. Do you or anyone else know why so many tooltips mention this physical script condition/variable?

:The documentation was originally written from the tooltips (I kid you not). (P.S. Please sign your comments with <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 20:57, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Okies. -- '''[[User:EddyFragment_Robonaught|Eddy]]''' ([[User talk:EddyFragment_Robonaught|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/EddyFragment_Robonaught|contribs]]) 8.29am GMT, 27 April 2009 (What does "UTC" stand for?)

:UTC is ''almost'' GMT (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coordinated_Universal_Time ). Tho you don't have to do the hard work in manually creating your signature. Just write four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>) and the wiki will automatically convert them into your username and a timestamp. When you'd like to have a custom signature, you can go to [[Special:Preferences]] and play around with the ''Signature'' option :-) [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures More info on that @ Wikipedia]
:Greetz, [[Image:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 08:00, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Lynch. I am not very knowledgable with computers. Still have trouble opening files and simple stuff like that. This wiki is a maze of links and I am afraid that even though my locic works just fine my knowledge is lacking. (I may need to edit this if I get the signiture bit wrong...Just type four squiggles...Here goes!). [[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|EddyFragment Robonaught]] 08:19, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

:Hehe, looks well! And call me zai ;-) Greetz, [[Image:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 08:28, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Sry zai (not Lynch). Good to meet you. -- [[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]] 08:43, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

:Yes the transclusion in LSL documentation does make it difficult to learn but it does make things so much easier to maintain once you have learned it. Consistency in layout and content is much easier with the transclusion IMHO. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 00:50, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Having looked up the word [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transclusion Transclusion] I have to assume you were commenting on my comment about all the links. I have no problem with links but while I am not the most experienced user on earth I find it daunting and time consuming to follow. I am personally far more concerned by the number of occlusions and errors in the documentation than in how the aforementioned is presented. \o/ for big words. [[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]] 10:38, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

:Please, if you know of any error in the documentation, please fix it* or at the very least post a comment about it on the article's talk page. I take errors very seriously but I can't fix what I don't know about. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 11:48, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
: *Don't be vague and don't be surprised when people edit your text, be prepared to explain your edit.

== Thoughts on built-in preprocessor ==

What are your thoughts on a built in preprocessor for SL? Obviously #import would not be supported but the rest could probably be managed. --[[User:Aeron Kohime|Aeron Kohime]] 05:02, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

: I don't think adding a preprocessor is a good idea. There is just too much evil and bad code you can write with a preprocessor and it would be devilishly difficult to document properly. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 16:02, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

== SVG vs PNG ==

Just curious why you uploaded the PNG images instead of the SVG images.

[[User:SignpostMarv Martin|SignpostMarv Martin]] 10:48, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

:{{JIRA|WEB-573}} has come back. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 15:58, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

== Hierarchics ==

I agree the CheckValidity is not appropriate for a public script. But I thought I should really better throw the script first onto the wiki, or I would never have gotten around to pushing myself to the point of doing so. Thanks for the fix on the edit mode, I think that was a terribly nasty bug I had a very hard time trying to debug! [[User:Nexii Malthus|Nexii Malthus]] 00:03, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

:I know just how hard those can be to track down. Sometimes it just takes a fresh set of eyes. I'm looking forward to playing with the script inworld. So far all I've done is check to make sure it passes lslint. I myself wrote a hierarchy script ages ago but I had the problem where I wasn't sure exactly how I wanted it to function and that made debugging impossible. It worked but I never knew if it was working correctly. Now that someone else has done the hard work, I can augment it with a float encoder and maybe optimize it too. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 00:36, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

== Hi Strife. [[llGetLinkKey]] looks a mess to me. ==

I just figured it would be better for you to take a look than for me to start changing things but it does appear to be "cobbled" together somewhat. Not what I would say seems to be your preferred standard at all for this wiki. Take it easy Strife. [[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]] 09:41, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

:Yeah it is a bit excessive, I'll try to reword and simplify. The trouble is, sometimes you are so close you just don't have the perspective. That said, I may not have understood what you are hinting at, could you be a bit more explicit, which sections need work? -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 11:34, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

:I gave this some thought on my way home from work and came to the conclusion that the "Returns a X" wordage needlessly complicates the description. Consequently, I've changed the template to now support "Returns the X". I'm also considering adding a qualifier to go before the type "Returns the Y X" but that spoils the point of the syntax, which is that the type is supposed to be prominently placed in the sentence, if we don't force this why bother having a transcluded sentence at all, the author can just use the func_desc instead... but then does the type need to be the third word in the sentence? I don't know. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 12:45, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Sorry Strife but I have no idea what you are talking about with the X's and Y's. But then I am a noob. I guess the "mess" I was referring to is the fact that the function appears to not do more than it does do. Like all the FLAG's not returning the correct results or as stated not working. But mostly I think the statement "The other link flags (LINK_SET, LINK_ALL_OTHERS, and LINK_ALL_CHILDREN) don't make sense for this function." doesn't seem very well explained to me ("don't make sense"????)(What the hell is that supposed to mean?). Considering that on more than one occasion you have told me to explain my comments if I make them (fair enough) I thought I should point out this page to you since I am not qualified to change or explain the entry myself. The omissions and errors I referred to on the "Transclusion" topic are finding functions with almost no explanation or one so complex that is would only be useful to someone who already knows what it all means, or finding (as previously discussed) comments that are incorrect (such as the myriad of comments about physical scripts not supporting a particular function when in fact they do). I admit freely that I am a learner and on many occasions I will be wrong when discussing or commenting on LSL but the whole point of the portal is for learners to gain insight on the subject and yet much of it is so complex one feels that one needs a portal that explains how to understand the portal. I am beginning to rant and so I close with ---- Generally the info herewithin is pretty good if one uses a bit of smarts and tries, tries and tries again until it works. You may recall following me to "do" and rewriting the wording for my addition to the examples since there was no explanation for the block statements loop. That is an example of omissions and how I try and learn and then comment on my findings. It's a good job wikis are community projects eh Strife? -- [[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]] 11:48, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

:That's right, they don't make sense to be used with llGetLinkKey, take for example the LINK_ALL_CHILDREN flag, it causes the result of the function to be applied to all prims in the object except the root prim. LINK_ALL_CHILDREN in effect is a push flag, llGetLinkKey's parameter is a pull parameter. What is the uuid (key) of all child prims in the object? It's undefined, it doesn't make sense to use LINK_ALL_CHILDREN. The LINK_* flags would make sense if the function were llGetLinkKeyList but it's not.

:Omissions I will accept, '''we haven't finished writing the documentation'''. If you find an article that needs fixing at the very least add it to the FixMe category and write what needs to be fixed in the Edit Summary. When it comes to examples, more than half the articles need better examples. More than half the constants need descriptions; of those with descriptions, half need to be rewritten. There is so much work it's hard to know where to start, to make matters worse the community does not agree with what the documentation should be either; it's all compromise and balancing interests.

:As to better understanding the documentation, we are currently working on that. The plan is to add a link into the top of the articles providing a link(s) into tutorial that discuss the underlying topics; the community is writing the tutorials as we speak. One of the topics to be discussed in the tutorial will be how to understand the documentation, specifically explaining the organization and how to find information in it.

:I was using "X" to indicate the return type of the function and "Y" to represent a qualifier. I was talking not just about llGetLinkKey but the all functions and the function template. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 00:41, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

WOW Strife!! That all sounds extreamly positive. I would love to be involved in the process. As I am still learning and thus my scripts are quite bad (I would prefer to say simple but I have to be honest) I dunno if my examples would be much use. however if I knew how to get around better I would happily get to work on writing some examples for the functions etc that need them. Would you be so kind as to tell me how I find those functions without going through them say alphabetically? One thing I would say I might be most useful with regard to is the fact that I am just learning and thus have a fresh view of how to understand this stuff. I am very keen to help but I really am not very computer smart (I started to learn HTML before I knew how to open a file) (seriously). Can you advise on the best way for me to get involved? Please. -- [[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]] 03:22, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Just discovered the usefulness of "History". I may understand this one day. Hope you approve that I posted your explanation of the FLAGs into the caveats of llGetLinkKey as it is the very info I would have liked to have seen there before. -- [[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]] 09:48, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

:It's a good starting point (using my explanation) but the example isn't needed to communicate the concept IMO, just a better explanation. The problem with my explanation is that it is too long to be placed in the caveats section. Here is a list of topics in need of examples [[:Category:LSL_Needs_Example]] -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 15:07, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

:Some advice, people will edit what you write. If they edit it, it means they agree that the previous wording (previous to your edit) wasn't good; if they thought the previous wording was better, that you contribution was without merit, they would revert your edit outright. But if they edit it, even replacing all of your contribution, they are still acknowledging that you were right that previous wording was bad. So don't be offended when people edit, consider it as someone voicing their opinion and perspective, just as you have just done. If you feel your wording is better, start a discussion; don't revert unless you really think there is no other recourse. As you become familiar you will learn when it's ok to revert an edit; which relies mostly upon sharing the "vision". The revert is not something to be trifled with, nobody likes it but there are lines that should not be crossed. Now people will edit for all sorts of reasons. Editing is a dance; sometimes things will get awkward and we will need to take things slow; sometimes we will step on each others toes; sometimes someone will go around insisting their way is the only way to dance. Basically what I'm saying there is an etiquette but wiki etiquette is so different from anything else that people have trouble learning it. Don't be afraid to ask questions.

:To me the only thing that matters (on the wiki) is the content. I don't need to carve out a name for myself, to erect a monument to my ego; I frown upon anyone who tries at the expense of the content, the content is more important. We aren't carving out niches for ourselves; we are making a home for the community.

:I think you may just bring some much needed insight into what the wiki needs. Novices don't comment much but it is so easy to forget what it is like to be one. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 15:58, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Strife. I am actually honored by your help and introduction. One question about "but the example isn't needed to communicate the concept IMO". Do you mean the script example? As a novice I can say that script is not very helpful and in fact as it is too complex for a novice I thought it counter-helpful (if you catch my drift). If you mean that your own desc. of why the flags make no sense for use in this function, I personally think you are wrong. The description you gave me is perfect for a novice and has opened my eyes to how functions and flags operate in a way that I had not previously understood. I think that sort of simple honest explanation of the workings of LSL is precisely what is needed. I hope you meant the script example was not needed rather than your own desc. But if the length of the caveat is a problem perhaps a shorter more simple script example with full step by step explanation in orange would be ideal.

Thank you very much for passing me the link. I am glad you trust me to go forth and edit. I am aware of how knowledgeable and philanthropic you are in the LSL community so your support and advice is greatfully received. And if you want insight into how it feels to be a novice....I clearly remember looking at a simple particle script months ago and trying to figure out how to change the color. I am not kidding. I had to ask for help too. If you want noob then I'm your man. -- [[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]] 04:20, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

::: Just looked at the entry. i see what you mean now. Should have looked before of course. I still thought your description was kick-ass. that whole pushme-pullyou thing is an eyeopener. *slinks away feeling a lil silly* (note to self-look at entry before commenting) -- [[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]] 07:00, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

: You don't need to feel silly, happens all the time.
: There are a few good reason why you should go forth and edit.
:* You learn how to edit and you way around the templates... and some LSL too.
:* The only thing worse than bad documentation, is no documentation.
:* It's easier to extract gold from muck then it is to extract gold from nothing. Meaning: it's easier to fix someone else's contributions than write the contribution from scratch.
:* Your posts will contain gold, it will show.

:As to your edits today, they are good. One thing for the future, here on the wiki we accept both K&R and Allman indent styles; you don't need to change them to Allman. While we could specify a single style for all examples we don't because it's a contentious topic. By mixing between the two we get users accustomed to seeing both styles. In the wild people use what ever style they want... all to often I see new users not using a style at all (and it makes for terribly hard code to read and maintain).
: -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 12:40, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Hiya. I don't know what K&R and Allman indents are or where I changed them. Sry. Permission request....May I completely overhaul llLoopSoundMaster? Since the toggle is a bizzare way to do it when it could be a simple TRUE/FALSE variable thingy. And the example doesn't actually show what the function does. Thanx for being so nice Strife. Seriously I feel welcome and that is very cool. -- [[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]] 22:56, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Thought....Are they the lsl indents? Like the way the return button (tab?) places the cursor. If that is right I understand why that may seem a bit over zealous on my part. I just thought it was neater that way. i wasn't trying to be picky. I was already there so I tinkered. I won't do it again. if however the indents you are talking about are something else I will await your advice. (sry for all the edits. I keep forgetting to sign)-- [[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]] 23:03, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

:{{Wikipedia|Indent style}} We also do 1TBS. I don't mind the edits, I don't generally read the between edits. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 14:22, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Strikes me that this is a lot like engineering (a field I worked in amongst others(as a matter of minor possible interest, if you are ever near by a euro fighter jet plane bear in mind that I made some of the nuts that help to hold the wings on(don't have nightmares))). Why have so many different sizes and styles of nuts and bolts or screws? That was rhetorical. -- [[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]] 00:49, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

:That is the argument of 1TBS proponents. While it is considered anal retentive to edit for the sake of just changing the whitespace style (assuming there was nothing wrong with it), it's ok if you can find another excuse to edit the article. But I didn't say this. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 03:14, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Mums the word Strife. Funniest thing I've lolled at for a long while -- '''[[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]]''' 03:51, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

As you can see I am having trouble figuring out how to make my signature bold. How do I please? -- '''[[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]]''' 03:54, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Fixed? -- '''[[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]]''' 03:58, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Yup. Sry for the mess. -- '''[[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]]''' 04:02, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

== Hi Strife. ==

No reason for the comment but to say hi (kinda). I am having trouble understanding something and have just been saddened by the total lack of community spirit in a group full of scripters. I got a snobby patronizing lead to knowhere (I think the problem was too complicated for then to help with so they just gave me a ";p" at the end of their pointless comment) and a try a different group (cause we're all too special for you) comment. I am just depressed. So I turn to someone who is (strict but) helpful (lolz, that's you). I go out of my way often to help others understand things. I am (when I figure it out myself) trying to add useful things here. Why do others who script treat it as such a competition? Like if they know how you are beneath them and if they don't know how you are in the way. Hope you don't mind but I needed a rant and you strike me as being a decent guy. -- '''[[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]]''' 17:47, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

:Hmmm, well, anyone who can do something that others can't can become self important. When it comes to scripting, you aren't just putting things together, you are breathing life into them, giving some scripters something of a god complex. Then there is the game of "how clever can I be" better known as a "pissing contest". Then there is the difficulty of describing the solution, often it is easier to just write the code than describe it; and that is annoying because then they are doing your work for you. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 10:52, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Indeed on all points. I was only asking for a little help too. Never mind eh? I actually fully understand why when people spend time learning something they don't just wanna give away that knowledge but.... never mind. As an upshot of this (yet again) reality check with regard to human nature I have decided to join the SL mentor scheme, so all works out ok in the end. And I am more determined than ever to try to add more simple to understand examples to this portal (where I can).

On the point of the "writing the code" rather than explaining how. I am most fully in agreement. I can think of nothing worse than a script that works perfectly but that the user cannot understand. That's why I write all mine out from "Hello Avatar!" (even if it does take weeks to learn how). When I get a chance I am going to try to provide an understandable breakdown of the user defined function in a series of scripts to show the working (that's what I didn't understand(but I'll get there)). But first off I have to figure it out myself. Anyways, take it easy Strife. Sorry for the whine. I just get sad easily. -- '''[[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]]''' 16:12, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

== I didn't know quite where to write all this and to explain it all fully is kinda out of my depth I think ==

I have built an object that rescales it's self if it is stretched either out of shape or to an inappropriate size (too large). It has two prims and the main script is in the root. I needed to script for the rescaling in the child and thought it easiest to add a similar script in that prim with if(change & CHANGED_SCALE){llResetScript();} sending it back to state_entry() to check on the scale via llGetScale(). I just got so many things happen that I don't know which bit was wrong and which was right.

*1) Change did not register in the child so the script did not reset.

*2) Saving the script in the child reset the script in the root (discovered by not having named the script yet and having set a llResetOtherScript() that on saving the child script shouted on debug that it couldn't find it, even though root script was saved and quiet before the child reset on save).

*3) Since finding that the child was not acting as I wanted I added a link message from root to tell child to reset if scale had changed instead of if(change & etc.) and found that the child then reset if individually stretched(without stretching the root at all).

*4) With llMessageLinked() disabled (// Orange) the root rescaling didn't trigger the rescaling of child which seems contrary to the fact that the change of scale measured in the root script was enough to reset the scale in the child when stretching it individually.

If this is all a little confusing I apologize but this is why I have come to you. I have no idea whether what is happening is correct or not. Can you advise?
-- '''[[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]]''' 12:47, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

: First, why are you doing this? I'm not sure if there is a good way of doing this. If memory servers, the changed event only likes to fire in the root but don't quote me on that. It's been a long time since I've tested the changed event. I would have the root send a link message to the children when the event happened. Regardless I can't help you debug your script without seeing it first. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 14:37, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

I have gone to the link message version already but for future reference it is good to know about changed not liking children. The idea is simply to have an object that can be resized but not re proportioned or made too large or small (this matters as ParticleSystem size is running off llGetScale and the effect is ruined if the object goes beyond the 4meter max for particle size. Also the object is displaying textures for cycled viewing and if too small or deformed the viewing is ruined). Although debugging my script would be useful it was not the reason for my highlighting the few points above. It is the odd or undocumented behavior that I thought worth looking into. I am having too many problems understanding so much at this time to be of much use to be honest. I shouldn't worry about it Strife. I think I'll stop messing about for a while until I understand more. Take it easy. -- '''[[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]]''' 14:56, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

== GeSHi ==

Heyas! 
Back from holidays... And saw your comment in the recent changes. Bleh... Seems like I forgot spaces @ [[PERMISSION_TAKE_CONTROLS]], [[PERMISSION_ATTACH]] and [[PERMISSION_CHANGE_LINKS]] in the highlighter... The rest seems to be fine? Jira was {{JIRA|WEB-1036}} (the file is attached). 
--[[Image:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 16:54, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

:Yeah it looks great otherwise. I've reopened the jira issue and posted a modified file. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 17:08, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

:: Yay, thx! :-) --[[Image:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 23:01, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

== [[Template:JiraSearch]] ==

Just wanted to thank you for making such a cool template. Somewhat worrying how much free time you have though to make that :) [[User:Gordon_Wendt|''GW'']] ([[User talk:Gordon_Wendt|T]]|[[Special:Contributions/Gordon Wendt|C]]) -- 21:50, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

:I walk to work, it's 45 min both ways. I usually listen to music or books but on the way home, I'm either tired or thoughtful. The problems of the wiki give me much to think about, they are low stress and given the right amount of attention solutions can be found. But the problem isn't coming up with solutions, it's spotting the problems. Figuring out the needs of the community is the hardest part. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 00:20, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

:Anyway this was one of the features that was suggested for the LSL documentation (which left me scratching my head as to if it was even possible... which it turned out it was; praise the designers of JIRA for accepting GET instead of POST). -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 01:08, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

== [[Template:Stub]] ==

Hi Strife, I just wanted to let you know that I reworked [[Template:Stub]] into something that can hopefully be used to tag articles that need expansion since the current system seems a bit fragmented. Using the category system for tagging and finding stub articles I'm hoping this will be useful. [[User:Gordon_Wendt|''GW'']] ([[User talk:Gordon_Wendt|T]]|[[Special:Contributions/Gordon Wendt|C]]) -- 21:52, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

:It needed to be doing. And it wasn't a high priority... it's not something that has an exciting solution (documentation layout on the other hand is exciting). -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 23:44, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

:I need to make some changes to the lsl templates (to bring them up to speed with the function template) and I'll work stub tagging into the templates. Also I'll be populating all of the LSL articles sources with some of the hidden variable names (with a GM script I haven't written yet; I'll be using GM so I don't have to deal with doing authentication and cookies in C#). -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 23:56, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

== Variable in [[Template:Languages/Lang]] ==
Thx :-) I wasn't happy with my solution when I wrote it, though to puzzled to make it nice. It's way better this way. --[[Image:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 17:51, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

:I was worried that there would be a name collision. Wouldn't be the first time, the LSL article templates used the var "type" as did the LSL constant link template (which caused problems for the former); changed the former's name to "article-type". This is why many of my template variables have built in acronyms and are generally cryptic... that or I just like being cryptic. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 17:57, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

::Ah... right. I tried to avoid that by using something as cryptic as "one", though haven't had in mind that it might collide exactly ''because'' it is that cryptic. But parameter is the nicer solution anyway. --[[Image:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 18:24, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

== Relationship between LSL Portal and LSL 101: The Wikibook ==
My original thought on LSL 101 was that it would simply be an intro for newbies. But then, as the forum discussion continued, its scope seemed to grow. When I decided to try writing a section for the "Topics in Focus" section, I just picked integers arbitrarily, and checked the Portal to see what was already there. Since there wasn't much, I just started writing. It's not done, but I was getting a little bored, so I thought I would tackle another data type. Then I found that for many of the proposed topics in the In Focus section, there are already substantial articles in the Portal.

So what I am wondering is if you have any thoughts on somehow defining scopes for the two namespaces. Not that I think it is terrible to have some redundancy between them, but in general I think it would be much more useful to have them coordinated in a way that a user would have a good chance of finding what they wanted on the first shot, instead of having to find and read two pages that had a lot of duplication.

I'm open to just cutting out the LSL in Focus section and transferring what I have written to the Portal, if that seems like the best organization.--[[User:Omei Turnbull|Omei Turnbull]] 19:39, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

:The thing is, what we really need is a good LSL tutorial. We also really need LSL articles but I think the former is more important (you are free to work on what you like). I would say, don't worry about duplication, make LSL 101 the best you possibly can; even if that means copying content found elsewhere on the wiki. And when you add unique content, that content will eventually make it's way into the other articles.

:For the time being I think having it as a separate entity on the wiki will benefit it, so that it's authors can innovate without having to worry about staying with in the culture of the Portal. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 20:07, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

== I just found a couple of unsigned entries. Ooooh that's frustrating. ==

I think I may stop forgetting now. lol. Very odd to find words from nowhere existing with no owner. I in a flash realized the importance of signing. This should mean a few less "minor" edits from me. -- '''[[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]]''' 06:12, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

== Hiya Strife. I wonder if you could help me out with an llEmail problem? ==

I am trying to set up an automatic updater via email for a permenantly rezzed vendor type object and am sending the email to the server object which is being recieved and then giving the new version if it should but then am trying to send an email back to the vendor from the server with llEmail(address, "gi", "gi"); and it is either not arriving or not being sent. I set up a llSay() in the server to tell me the address and it looks fine but still no cigar. Can you help? Please. (btw sry for using this method to ask but you are never in world) -- '''[[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]]''' 23:57, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

:Are you calling [[llGetNextEmail]] periodically? -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 06:43, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

I have to admit I have kinda forgotten what I was doing. And I am just about to walk my dog (thus brain is not working properly). I will regard the fact that I should obviously be doing that as a massive hint and take a look at what I was doing later. I'm not sure I even have the objects any more. Have you been to the SL6B yet? Very glowey!! Some jolly things to see. -- '''[[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]]''' ([[User talk:EddyFragment_Robonaught|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/EddyFragment_Robonaught|contribs]]) 11:09, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

:I'll have to reboot, I just reinstalled the drivers for my graphics card. Then I'll see if it wants to run SL. And I won't be able to see anything glowy or cool, the old POS it is, assuming SL runs at all (it should). But I suspect it won't be the beginning of my troubles. When my old (newer than this) computer died, the OS needed to be reinstalled; when this computer's HD died I booted from my old (new than the one that died) HD; so I still need to reinstall the OS BUT the disc to do so is in the storage facility, in a box, in a pile of boxes. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 12:49, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
::"''BUT the disc to do so is in the storage facility, in a box, in a pile of boxes.''"
::→ [http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/download friendly 'n' free][http://ubuntuguide.org/wiki/Ubuntu:Jaunty *]
::Might give it a whirl :-) --[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 15:16, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

:::Say what you want about Windows, but it was designed by people who have spent 25 years trying to make a GUI that is better than Apples. The Linux development community by it's nature has largely focused on the command line to the point of shunning GUIs, which leaves usability and GUI consistency all too often ignored. While Ubuntu has made inroads on usability, it still can't escape the legacy applications that the user has to run from the command line. It gives it the feel of Windows 95: a complex shell on top of a CLI.
:::Then there are the Man pages. I swore long ago that the LSL documentation would never be as bad as the man pages. It's all to often faster to read the source than bother with the Man pages; which I don't want to do, it's a huge hassle. Linux documentation is a joke that isn't funny. Linux documentation is an oxymoron.
:::Over the last 10 years I've collected all sorts of applications, utilities and tools. Some have been maintained others have not but they all fill a niche. Some are buggy, some are not, some are open source, some are not but that doesn't really matter because I've grown fond of them. Now almost all have a GUI, very few of them require me to use the command line, I have nothing against the command line, but a GUI is more often a big part of the right solution. Sure I could run Wine and take them with me... but I know that a good number of them would not survive or not make sense in Linux as many are designed to interact with Windows itself.
:::Then there is the disk space problem, I'm not that keen on making the space to install it. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 20:58, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

::::Sorry, I didn't wanted to push you into a Windows vs. Linux discussion. I got a Windows XP on a seperate partition of both of my computers still and it's rescuing me at times. I don't dismiss Apple either (talked my mom into getting a MacBook and am sometimes snooping around with Mac OS X when I'm there over a weekend). Although I personally prefer Linux for myself, I don't really care about the OS as long as I'm able to solve the task I'm trying to solve. In this case, the task was to get to [[SL6B]] without the need to unbox a lot of stuff in order to find a disc.
::::Didn't mean to piss you off :-S
::::--[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 21:50, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

:::::Not mad just a bit annoyed, it's been suggested before. I just have Views; each of the OS's has it's problems. The problem with mine is driver induced DLL hell; it's not bad enough to make the computer not work just act strangely during initial login (it's happier if you log out and then back in; I suspect the services aren't playing nicely with each other). It will be better once I lance some drivers from the registry. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 23:36, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

That all sounds very complex and uncomfortable. No body wants to be lanced after all! Good luck with it all Strife. I wish I could help but other than inviting you to my house to login there's nothing I could do or say. -- '''[[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]]''' ([[User talk:EddyFragment_Robonaught|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/EddyFragment_Robonaught|contribs]]) 01:59, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

== Unspecified section ==

Thanks for the spell-check {{Unsigned|Rand Linden}}

:Me? Prolly not but just in case. -- '''[[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]]''' ([[User talk:EddyFragment_Robonaught|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/EddyFragment_Robonaught|contribs]]) 01:35, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

::Nah I left a message on Rand's take page. There was a typo in one of his edits to a protected page. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 06:43, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Okies. Hiya. Byee! -- '''[[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]]''' ([[User talk:EddyFragment_Robonaught|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/EddyFragment_Robonaught|contribs]]) 11:05, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

== Your comments ==

''(please sign your comments, it's annoying to have to check the change log; oh and please create a new section if you leave a comment on a talk page, it's disruptive to the last conversation otherwise).''

I do as a matter of course. I certainly wouldn't want to annoy anyone. To what are your referring?

Oh, I see! The above comment.... Sure, np. I did that in the heat of the KB2wiki rollout.

I might add: please be specific when you make requests. I had forgotten all about that.

--[[User:Rand Linden|Rand Linden]] 16:49, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

== Can you help me find something? ==

Somewhere (I think on this wiki) there is a page listing amongst other things all the default Linden animations and textures and sounds etc. like for example the sound that is played when you create a prim. I can't remember where it is or what it's called. I thought it was a library of some kind but search has failed me. Can you help? -- '''[[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]]''' ([[User talk:EddyFragment_Robonaught|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/EddyFragment_Robonaught|contribs]]) 16:52, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

:Funny, I can never remember it's name either. Here are the animations: [[Internal Animations]]. I can't remember where we have it (or if we have it <.<) anyway, here it is on the old LSLWiki: http://www.lslwiki.net/lslwiki/wakka.php?wakka=ClientAssetKeys -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 21:20, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

'''YOU'RE THE MAN!!''' The old wiki is the place. Thank you ever so much. I wanted the rez sound for a building tutorial interactive object I'm trying to make. Should or could all that info be imported into this wiki? Seems a shame to leave it all out in the cold. Really great thanks Strife. -- '''[[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]]''' ([[User talk:EddyFragment_Robonaught|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/EddyFragment_Robonaught|contribs]]) 21:39, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

That is so awesome. I can't imagine how I discovered that page months (and months) ago but it is perfect. If you come in world sometime give me a call so I can show you what I'm doing. The value of the project (I mean philanthropic value) just shot up!! When I get some more money to upload the hundreds of textures needed to finish it I'm hoping to pass it out to sandboxes and groups with copy & transfer rights so it can spread the word. The idea was to make an object that gets around that "you should be able to see a grey disc..." "erm I don't understand..." "tell me what you are looking at..." nonsense. And the plan is coming together beautifully. Thanks again for the link. -- '''[[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]]''' ([[User talk:EddyFragment_Robonaught|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/EddyFragment_Robonaught|contribs]]) 22:30, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

== To link or not to link? That is the question. ==

Is it possible to instruct the wiki to create a link in such a way that it opens a new page/tab/window/thing? If so how please? How's the computer doing? Have you managed to lance it yet? -- '''[[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]]''' ([[User talk:EddyFragment_Robonaught|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/EddyFragment_Robonaught|contribs]]) 08:13, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

:I'm taking a few days to see relatives. I've been given an antique laptop (mid 90's); I'm wondering what to do with it (storage locker). As to your question, I don't think you can; check wikipedia (they document just about everything about MediaWiki). -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 18:56, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Lolled a lot. Sorry to hear about the storage locker. When I got fed up with poor quality vinyl (records) I made them into ashtrays. Maybe you could...well just a thought. Anyway I'll see what comes up in a search for link creation options. I always forget to surf cause I am truly rubbish at it. I never find the good stuff. Have a good visit with you family Strife. -- '''[[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]]''' ([[User talk:EddyFragment_Robonaught|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/EddyFragment_Robonaught|contribs]]) 23:58, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

:I found the right thing but it's very complex and looks like it would need to be added as a feature to the wiki (engine?). I haven't got a clue about that so I am bowing out with a whimper. See '''[http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Opening_external_links_in_a_new_window MediaWiki Page]''' for complicated code and stuff. -- '''[[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]]''' ([[User talk:EddyFragment_Robonaught|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/EddyFragment_Robonaught|contribs]]) 00:35, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

::I hadn't thought of using javascript. Still it's not a fun solution. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 18:18, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

== If you have the time at some point.... ==

Would you take a look at and rate my [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:EddyFragment_Robonaught/lsl_Tutorial_Videos beginners scripting tutorials]? I would greatly value your opinion and am NOT looking for an ego boost. I mean if you think they are rubbish you should tell me. Otherwise I wouldn't know. I would just like to know what an expert thinks. If you get some time. Thanx. -- '''[[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]]''' ([[User talk:EddyFragment_Robonaught|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/EddyFragment_Robonaught|contribs]]) 18:24, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

:I'll give it some time now, I don't know when I'll next have time (at all... hmmm should probably write something about this latest change in living accommodation). Thoughts:
:* Fix the audio. You can rerecord the audio and dub it over during video editing.
:* Don't be a hero, you don't need to do it as one continuous shot.
:* Provide the source of the scripts you are using in the video so the user can edit along with you.
:* Consider writing up a script and reading through the script a few times allowed, that will help eliminate some of your stammering.
:* They key to a good seminar is to recognize ahead of time that people learn differently: some by watching, some by listening, some by doing, some by a combination. Consider your goals and how you are serving each of these areas.
:* Don't sell yourself short, don't belittle yourself. If you want your viewers to learn they need to know it's something worth learning, they need to be confident in your knowledge and understanding, don't undermine it.
: I would find it easier to watch if you were a bit more energetic or enthusiastic. Maybe some info slides telling us what you are going to tell us about. Try mining Torley's videos for ideas.
: Unfortunately I don't have the time to really go through them; I only watched bits and pieces. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 11:12, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

<nowiki>*Gulps*</nowiki>

*Only got one mic and no flashy programs for recording.
*No Hero. One shot so I can remember what I said and carry on from there.
*I'll post the scripts on my user page (good point).
*I read through them allowed more times than I care to mention. Tech issues with recording forced this. I guess I just stammer.
*I'm not a proud man. I worked for decades on that. I know my limitations and don't lie. I sell myself at the length that seems fair. But good point that people need to feel confident that the info is accurate. *shrugs* Dunno quite how to show that.
*My voice broke repeatedly at school and years of drugs and smoking have given me a vocal pit of doom. Slides? I think that would require video editing knowledge I haven't got and possibly software I haven't got. Torley? I can't do that! He's vital and teched up. *slumps and sighs*
*Really thanx for the effort. It's good to know what someone thinks. I was more concerned with the content than the presentation but I at least now know how they come across. I'm serious though, Really thank you for making this effort. I'll bear it in mind for future videos. But I really am quite dull so never expect Torley pazazz. Hope all is well with you. -- '''[[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]]''' ([[User talk:EddyFragment_Robonaught|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/EddyFragment_Robonaught|contribs]]) 20:16, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

:I'm sorry to hear about your voice being in such bad shape.
:Video editing isn't that hard. The first lesson: Use special effects and fancy transitions very sparingly. And you are in luck, this isn't the 90's or even the early 00's: We have reached the tipping point, there are lots of good quality freeware out there. [http://www.trakax.com TrakAxPC] is one free app I just came across though it wasn't the one I was looking for, looks pretty good too. If you are brave (very very brave) you can use [http://avisynth.org AviSynth] and [http://virtualdub.org VirtualDub] (I've used them both). If you are interested in learning about video editing, head on over to [http://forum.doom9.org doom9], it's a good starting place.
: Torley ~ often imitated, never duplicated. I'm tempted to say manic cheerfulness. Larger than life character.
: When I have time and motivation, I'll give it a proper content review.
: I probably should have said, when it comes to multimedia, I have Views. I have the soul of an artist and I either enjoy and accept art or I pick it apart. It's a piece of the puzzle as to why I edit wikis, if I don't like it, I can change it.
:-- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 18:47, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanx for all the links. I'll check them out bit by bit (just woke up). I guess I asked the right person. -- '''[[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]]''' ([[User talk:EddyFragment_Robonaught|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/EddyFragment_Robonaught|contribs]]) 18:54, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

== \o/ ==

I just created my very first user created function. It just replaced shed loads of code. The last time I tried it failed - "Uthread injection" summit summit. I never did find out what that was. But I have at last learned to run. Crawling on occasions still but walking is now a thing of the past. I be happy. -- '''[[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]]''' ([[User talk:EddyFragment_Robonaught|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/EddyFragment_Robonaught|contribs]]) 13:57, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

OMFG!! lololololol. This is amazing! My scripts are entering a new and amazingly compact new age. -- '''[[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]]''' ([[User talk:EddyFragment_Robonaught|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/EddyFragment_Robonaught|contribs]]) 14:15, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Smaller and soooo much faster!! This is a good day. I'll shut up now. Byee! -- '''[[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]]''' ([[User talk:EddyFragment_Robonaught|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/EddyFragment_Robonaught|contribs]]) 15:29, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

OMG! Did you know that you can label a user created function as a type? I jape of course. I'm sure you dimly recall learning that. Well I just guessed and it works. This is sooo cool. But I really will shut up now. TTFN -- '''[[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]]''' ([[User talk:EddyFragment_Robonaught|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/EddyFragment_Robonaught|contribs]]) 02:56, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

== Holy Crap Mate. ==

Good God. I wondered where you were. I actually wonder about (you know?) when bad things happen to people you only know by internet. I can read so asking if you're ok is a bit stupid but Are you ok? (I guess I'm just stupid). I'm glad you're alive and you type in a positive tone of text, so I'm guessing you weren't told any seriously bad news (back injuries...). When I saw you comment I just was gonna say "WB!" but then I thought you might have gone on holiday (worse luck for you that you weren't). I hope you have people there helping you out. Glad you're not too badly injured Strife. Dunno what else to say. "eek" perhaps? -- [[File:Eddy_CUBE_jpg.jpg|45px|link=User:EddyFragment Robonaught]]'''[[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]]''' ([[User talk:EddyFragment_Robonaught|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/EddyFragment_Robonaught|contribs]]) 20:46, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

== ouch! ==

Better not do [https://wiki.secondlife.com/w/index.php?title=User:Strife_Onizuka&curid=2909&diff=468023&oldid=447203 this kind of things], it sounds no fun at all! (o.O) Kudos for the computer tho. Hope you will get it all fixed soon. Yourself and the hardware! --[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 20:47, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

No worries Zai or Eddy (I like your new signature btw) it will work out I'm sure. They think my T12 will mend in 6 weeks... which means I have to spend that time lying down or in a back brace. Not great options but options ^_^. The foot has similar restrictions (needs to be elevated). Everyone I've talked to thinks I'm lucky, for doing something so bone headed and get away with what I did is something of a mir- *cough* mirac- *cough-hack-wheeze for effect* miracle... and that's not taking into account that I landed on concrete. The long term aspect that looks annoying though is that I'll likely get Arthritis (wasn't expecting to get out of life with out it anyway so no big surprise there) and that I'll set off metal detectors. But at the very least I can now beat people with my crutches when they won't let me sit on the subway (I think that's the pain pills talking).

P.S. I've left instructions that my user page should be updated in the event of my untimely demise. We are friends and I wouldn't want you to worry needlessly so i'll keep you updated.

P.S.S. I poo'ed today (for the first time since my accident, narcotics don't just shut down air ports, schools and bus stations; they do a number on your gut). -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 21:23, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

:<nowiki>*Almost weeps*</nowiki> Quite seriously that's something else. You are proving yourself a great Human with a humorous take on such an ordeal. I spent 8 weeks with an elevated foot (severed two tendons, two nerves and an artery) and can understand how frustrating it is. I'm assuming you are in the states so I couldn't help you out (no passport) but if you are in UK give me a call by email (I'm pretty sure it's available to users otherwise IM in world) and we can arrange my coming to slave for you (nothing worse than struggling to get a drink or something else so simple). Anyway... WB! (signature feels kinda dumb now (perspective) but thanx). -- [[File:Eddy_CUBE_jpg.jpg|45px|link=User:EddyFragment Robonaught]]'''[[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]]''' ([[User talk:EddyFragment_Robonaught|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/EddyFragment_Robonaught|contribs]]) 21:35, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

::Wow, that sounds worse then what I got, but part of it is I'm not entirely sure what they did. They put a titanium rod down one of my bones (to hold it together) and put some screws and a plate to hold the other together. As an added bonus they put in a bolt to restrict motion so a ligament can heal (they thought it seemed a bit loose). Everything I did to the leg I did just a bit above ankle level (they decided it wasn't enough and did some work around my foot and knee too). I was considering hoisting my self off on- I mean visiting my sister in London and getting my British passport at the same time (dual national)... but the nurse said I might develop blood clots in my leg on the flight over. Very tempting though... I'm pretty sure I'm not allowed to mix alcohol with the pain pills, unfortunately. When this is all over, I'm looking forward to getting totally smashed.

::P.S. Funny story time, so it's after the surgery and the nurse is wanting to take the catheter out. I'm not thrilled by the prospect but we start anyway... so she's pulling the tube out... now these rooms have two beds and they have rails for curtains and right now the door is closed but the curtain isn't pulled and I'm in the first bed in full view of the door. Now instead of horror crossing my face when the door opens, revealing the face of the chaplain, I give a big grin, raise my hand and wave with a warm "Hi!". She closed the door. It was at that point I gave up trying to be discrete for the rest of my stay. My attitude over these last few years has be crystallizing towards, "You have to appreciate the Greek style comedy in your life; roll with the punches and laugh it off. Remember the clique happenings and pin them to your memory like exquisite butterflies in bug box." -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 22:38, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

:::Oh gee, this more detailed explanation is even more scary than what you wrote on your userpage. Will the Arthritis be a result of this accident or did they just find out that you're genes will give you that anyway at age? I'm not up to date how it's caused...
:::So glad you kept your sense of humor (^_^). Yeah, you surely deserve a drink for that!
:::I can't add hospital stories since I've never had to stay over night (so far... *ugh*). The scariest thing that happened to me was, when I accidentally slit my calf open when I fell over some piece of metal. Three stitches inside, 9 on the outside. I think I was around 12 and seeing myself from the inside kinda freaked me out at that point. It guess it would still do so today...
::: --[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 22:53, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

So "RoboStrife" from now on then! I have had the twisted thought in the past that there is an upside to loosing a leg... You get a robo-leg as a replacement!! But I think I'll try to stick with the flesh one (two). It's funny how people are so disarmed by happiness. You spoiled the chaplains fun by being to cheerful to console. Bad RoboStrife. Glad you're ok mate.

:Poor Zai. Seeing the insides come out is freaky isn't it? When I cut my leg the puddle of blood that formed around me foot was quite freaky too. I think we can all be happy that we have been knocked down but have all (only a matter of a few weeks RoboStrife) got back up again. What doesn't kill us makes us stronger. -- [[File:Eddy_CUBE_jpg.jpg|45px|link=User:EddyFragment Robonaught]]'''[[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]]''' ([[User talk:EddyFragment_Robonaught|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/EddyFragment_Robonaught|contribs]]) 23:42, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

::Yeah that saying just doesn't work, it ignores the entire maiming issue. As to the Arthritis, I see it as a sign of getting old, and it's only a possibility but on this I'm a bit of a pessimist. I balance the optimism with pessimism, lets me laugh off some of the bad. Life is a game of Bingo, the free square is getting born, the prize is playing... unless you are religious then you think the prize is what comes when you 'win'.

::I've done enough stupid stuff and had to fix it myself that staying calm hasn't been so much of an issue. I'm sure the first few times it was quite distressing but at this point I just do what has to be done (I should probably get some more first aid training, it's been a long time). I would however have trouble keeping it together with my insides hanging out; I wouldn't be freaking out but I would definitely not be capable of making sound decisions.

::Today being a new day... well I need to hobble down stairs, find some food and reconcile my aching sternum (childhood injury that I should have gotten looked at ages ago). I'll be around, just need to finish ordering the parts for my computer. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife of Borg]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 13:58, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Now that's a cool new signature! -- [[File:Eddy_CUBE_jpg.jpg|45px|link=User:EddyFragment Robonaught]]'''[[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]]''' ([[User talk:EddyFragment_Robonaught|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/EddyFragment_Robonaught|contribs]]) 14:08, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

: *_^ -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife of Borg]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 14:34, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

== Just checking up on the invalid. ==

How ya doing there Strife? All things bearable? -- [[File:Eddy_CUBE_jpg.jpg|45px|link=User:EddyFragment Robonaught]]'''[[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]]''' ([[User talk:EddyFragment_Robonaught|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/EddyFragment_Robonaught|contribs]]) 20:38, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

:I running ScanBody but it's taking forever to repair the damaged. *loves Homographs*

:I'm not entirely bed ridden *pout* I try to get up and about... though yesterday I was a little to aggressive with my stretches and now my ankle hurts beyond what the pain pills will take care of. So I did in fact spend almost the entire day on my back in bed... only getting up to empty my bottles of... *cough* I had a guest coming to visit and I still have some dignity left. I'm not going to ask someone else to empty them for me.

:Good news is they are going to take xrays Thursday and remove the staples & suture. I've been wondering what type of tool they have can remove staples. *googles* Well I wonder no more, the device functions as I thought it would It bends the center of the stable down forcing the legs out and up. I confirmed the appointment today. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 00:34, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

\o/? Sounds like fun...NOT! I had stitches in my ankle and didn't like the feeling of them being removed. Not pain but kinda tugging *squirms*. I'm guessing your back is giving you less trouble than your ankle. I also guess you realize how darned lucky you are in that case. A girl I know in my hometown fell off a cliff (quite high...could easily die) near here and broke her back she was up and about in a few weeks and now you'd never know. Weird to think that a splinter could kill a man 100 years ago (septicemia etc.). Imagine what the future will be like... 200 year old bio-machines with interconnected minds by the grace of "The Great Lord Google". hehehe

Good luck for Thursday. I hope the X-rays provide all good news. -- [[File:Eddy_CUBE_jpg.jpg|45px|link=User:EddyFragment Robonaught]]'''[[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]]''' ([[User talk:EddyFragment_Robonaught|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/EddyFragment_Robonaught|contribs]]) 00:51, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

:I'm curious about it, I want to watch but I suspect I'll get bored around the 10th staple... with 37 to go. When I was like 12 or 13, I had an accident on parallel bars and ended up hurting something that connects to the sternum. Using the crutches has reawakened that injury and bits of the memories associated with it have been bubbling up. Since the crutches aggravate it, I've been keeping off my feet. Good news is that my Uncle has offered to put me up for some time while I get better, which should give me more independence (I'm wearing out my welcome where I am). -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 01:07, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

47!! Eeek. Compound fracture? I've been trying to imagine the way you had to land to break back and leg at the same time. Spwat! is what comes to mind. I really doubt anyone would begrudge you alms while you're incapacitated. You're prolly just imagining things. Have you considered not throwing yourself around quite so much Strife? There are only so many bones in the human body and you might wanna keep a few in tact for later. Take it easy Strife. -- [[File:Eddy_CUBE_jpg.jpg|45px|link=User:EddyFragment Robonaught]]'''[[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]]''' ([[User talk:EddyFragment_Robonaught|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/EddyFragment_Robonaught|contribs]]) 01:18, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

:lol yeah, 47 staples and some stitches too under some the staples (got me why they did both). I think I landed standing up with my legs pretty relaxed (since my mind had been focused on grasping the railing as it went past); they folded up fracturing both bones in the ankle of one leg in the process at which point I think my butt hit the ground. Fortunately I'm a light weight (135 pounds or 61 kg) so there wasn't too much to absorb. My forgetful eating habits might just have saved my life. Well I need to empty the bladder, refill the water bottle and inject my blood thinner... and try to sleep. Night. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 02:35, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

:I'm not entirely sure how I managed to get both legs through the fire escape ladder hole and still land upright. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 02:37, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

With your programing knowledge how is it hard to find work? Surely there are hundreds of places that would beg for people like you if only they knew who to beg. *shrugs* Then again I've always been a little naive. So you had your staples out then? Did it go well? How are feeling in general now? Is the shock wearing or worn off? -- [[File:Eddy_CUBE_jpg.jpg|45px|link=User:EddyFragment Robonaught]]'''[[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]]''' ([[User talk:EddyFragment_Robonaught|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/EddyFragment_Robonaught|contribs]]) 12:51, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

:I don't think the guy got all the suture but then I can't bend the knee enough to look and my back hurts too much for me to try. With my back as it is, I must behave and not lift things (I lifted my computer yesterday and so today it hurts). I got to see the xrays today which is good. The spine people are going to call me tomorrow and we will see how that goes; I don't know when I last spoke to them. On the job front, I don't really know how to go about getting a job <.< -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 00:03, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Aww Strife, that is sooo cute. Jobs are horrid though aren't they? We live in a world that rewards perseverance instead of talent. The bigger the kiss-ass you are the better your prospects. I never quite got it either. Since you could work from home on computers I would have thought your (I am assuming but prolly right that you can google like a wizard) best bet would be finding an agency on-line. You could earn top dollar with your knowledge.

Strange you saying about some suture left in. I think that happened to me. I could have sworn there was a bit still inside one of the holes. It healed fine though if that puts your mind a little at rest about it (if you were concerned). As for you not asking other people to lift things while you are RECUPERATING FROM A BROKEN BACK!!!! Bad Strife of Borg! Seriously mate think about it. If you push too fast or too hard you could really do yourself some harm. Ok you got away with falling off a house but you shouldn't be pushing your luck.

Oooh! [http://www.linkedin.com/ LinkedIn] do working type things. Like networking Facebook for business and computery type stuff. Might be worth a look. -- [[File:Eddy_CUBE_jpg.jpg|45px|link=User:EddyFragment Robonaught]]'''[[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]]''' ([[User talk:EddyFragment_Robonaught|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/EddyFragment_Robonaught|contribs]]) 00:24, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

[http://www.odesk.com/w/?vt_cmp=buyers&vt_adg=programmer&vt_src=google&vt_med=text&vt_kw=programmer&gclid=CLq6sdKLxZwCFYYU4wod3Eyxng Looks Smug] I is a Google wizard too. lolz. -- [[File:Eddy_CUBE_jpg.jpg|45px|link=User:EddyFragment Robonaught]]'''[[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]]''' ([[User talk:EddyFragment_Robonaught|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/EddyFragment_Robonaught|contribs]]) 00:28, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

[http://www.getafreelancer.com/projects/C-C-Javascript/openfire-spark-amp-forum-website.html This looks interesting too] I'll butt out now if you like. -- [[File:Eddy_CUBE_jpg.jpg|45px|link=User:EddyFragment Robonaught]]'''[[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]]''' ([[User talk:EddyFragment_Robonaught|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/EddyFragment_Robonaught|contribs]]) 00:44, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Hey there Strife. Nice to see you back (it seems to me you have been around less but then I have so I guess I wouldn't know anyway O-o). Hope you're well (really). Someone in world asked me if I knew anyone good with programing and I said yes, you. They are looking for someone to do java programing. I don't know much about it but apparently it will be for payment. The name of the chap who asked me has completely escaped my mind but he will be back in contact. Are you interested? No bother to me one way or another. -- [[File:Eddy_CUBE_jpg.jpg|45px|link=User:EddyFragment Robonaught]]'''[[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]]''' ([[User talk:EddyFragment_Robonaught|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/EddyFragment_Robonaught|contribs]]) 17:53, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

:Sounds interesting, I'll be getting my computer set up in the next couple days (with a video card that doesn't make SL throw a fit; the computer I'm mooching at present can't handle SL). I'll have to brush up on my Java it's been a while since I've done anything in Java (but C# is a kindred spirit and so it shouldn't be too hard to get back on the horse [no worries, I kept the neck brace the ambulance crew gave me :p]). At my current location (lets hope this one works out better, the injury really screwed up my plans) there is quite an extensive selection of Sci-fi novels going back 45 years... so i've been spending time in worlds of ink, instead of illuminated phosphors. I'm doing all right pain wise, sitting upright for extended periods is a bit of a bother but the leg is doing all right (except for the bits of suture sticking out *rolls eyes*). I got more pain pills too so life is grand, I just hope they aren't going to become a problem (don't get the wrong idea, i'm not guzzling the things, most days I have no more than one pill, some days I don't take any). -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 00:58, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm glad to hear you are taking it easy. I never read much but if one is going to read Sci-fi is definitely a good way to go. But I am sorry to hear you are still suffering. I assumed by your light hearted comments before that you had escaped long lasting injury (even though it sounded by description that it was really bad). I hope the discomfort and inconvenience pass quickly for you and you can get back to being independent. I'm quite sure you're wise enough that the pain pills don't become a problem. It's only when you stop counting that you have lost your way (ex drug addict here). Although there are stages leading up to lost. You really did get a kick in the wotsits by life didn't you? (rhetorical) But you can make new plans and maybe in the end things will be much better than you would have had them otherwise (life is pretty wakky like that). I'll try to find the chap I spoke to and let him know to pass on to the person he was asking for etc blah blah and let you know who to contact. Although if the person who actually wanted the programing done has been looking elsewhere who knows if there is still work to be done? *hates being middle man*. But any other programing work comes up I'll be sure to let you know. You could always become a Linden and fix SL. That would keep you busy! Ok enjoy your sci-fi and I'll look forward to seeing you in world. I'll comment here as soon as I know the name to pass you. Take care mate. -- [[File:Eddy_CUBE_jpg.jpg|45px|link=User:EddyFragment Robonaught]]'''[[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]]''' ([[User talk:EddyFragment_Robonaught|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/EddyFragment_Robonaught|contribs]]) 16:23, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

:Ah thanks so much. As to lasting injury, we won't know A) until any symptoms crop up, or B) my meat space account is terminated (I wonder, should I try for a new account or do something different for the rest of eternity) but I expect that to be a long way off. I'll probably end up with arthritis and back pain later in life but how can I begrudge life that? I'm still here. Whatever will be, will be, when the future comes, I'll cope with it then. In the mean time I'll keep going to the doctor (the only thing I'm really worried about is the hospital bill doing me in). -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 20:24, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

:<nowiki>*peers round corner*</nowiki> helloo? How are you Strife? Sorry the Java job didn't come through. The chap who asked me about it never got back to me. It was someone I had met but didn't have the details for and I can't remember the name.

So are you well? Fully recovered yet? And how's your Sci-Fi reading marathon going? Also... Aren't you sposed to have your computer fixed up by now? I'd like to actually meet you one day (av 2 av). -- [[File:Eddy_CUBE_jpg.jpg|35px|link=User:EddyFragment Robonaught]]'''[[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]]''' ([[User talk:EddyFragment_Robonaught|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/EddyFragment_Robonaught|contribs]]) 01:29, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

== global variables ==

Heyas :-) 
Do you remember when the variables extension was supposed to be upgraded and the {{JIRA|WEB-847|impending doom}}? We did test in the test wiki and it looked as if the global variables wouldn't survive, although the footnotes templates et. al. still worked. It gave me a headache (all the time when I tried to mimick something like your footnotes) and yesterday, I found the odd solution. I don't know why, but look at [[User:Zai Lynch/counter1]] and [[User:Zai Lynch/counter2]]. the first one works, the second doesn't.
<pre>
{{User:Zai Lynch/counter2}}{{User:Zai Lynch/counter2}}{{User:Zai Lynch/counter2}}{{#var:counter}} 
{{User:Zai Lynch/counter1|a}}{{User:Zai Lynch/counter1|a}}{{User:Zai Lynch/counter1|a}}{{#var:counter}}
</pre>
{{User:Zai Lynch/counter2}}{{User:Zai Lynch/counter2}}{{User:Zai Lynch/counter2}}{{#var:counter}} 
{{User:Zai Lynch/counter1|a}}{{User:Zai Lynch/counter1|a}}{{User:Zai Lynch/counter1|a}}{{#var:counter}} 
Makes no sence but at least we know now how to work-around. :-) --[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 01:48, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

:I've done some testing, it caches the return value of the template if none of the supplied parameters are used in the template. When called in the same manor it duplicates the return value. Workaround: Give the template a parameter and use the parameter somehow, even if it is to do nothing <nowiki>{{#if:{{{1|}}}}}</nowiki>. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 17:36, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

::Yepp, looks like. Weird, tho I don't mind as long as it works :-)
::--[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 00:50, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

== Posting knowledge from the LSL Wiki to the LSL Portal ==

While I understand what you posted on [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User_talk:Harleen_Gretzky My Talk] page, the LSL Wiki came years before the LSL Portal, it would be hard to post something on the LSL Portal that has not probably been already posted on the LSL Wiki. So is there any correct way to transfer knowledge one knows, but had learned from the LSL Wiki? If you validate it is true?

Also, I freely admit I have no idea how copyrights work, but my reading of the bottom of the [http://lslwiki.net/lslwiki/wakka.php?wakka=HomePage LSL Home Page] and the [http://lslwiki.net/lslwiki/wakka.php?wakka=LSLwikicopyright LSL Wiki Copyright page] allow you to copy any contribution made there. --[[User:Harleen Gretzky|Harleen Gretzky]] 03:25, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

: [http://lslwiki.net/lslwiki/wakka.php?wakka=LSLwikicopyright LSL Wiki Copyright page] is a late addition and it's legality is dubious at best. I don't want to test it. That said, I have given permission for all of my contributions posted to the LSLWiki to be reposted to the LSLPortal (usernames BlindWanderer & StrifeOnizuka).

: If there is some nugget of knowledge that isn't on this wiki; add it to this wiki but write it in your own words from memory. If you are worried about it not being entirely accurate, check the other wikis to see what they say after you have penned your entry, but don't copy their wording. It's really awkward when content is plagiarized, it makes plain there is a need for the plagiarized content but it makes adding that content very difficult: It has to be presented in a very different fashion, one that has no similarity to plagiarism. I'm still not happy with my rewrite of [[llVolumeDetect]] but for the time I'll leave that to someone else to fix.

: I only noticed it because the addition of a fully formed caveat typically happens as a result of some trauma (like a JIRA issue or the discovery of an unreported bug). So I went looking for the most recent JIRA issue relating to llVolumeDetect. Your comment set off alarm bells. You intended no ill will, you were trying to help. Keep up the good works. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 19:47, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

:: Thing is, that even if the [http://lslwiki.net/lslwiki/wakka.php?wakka=LSLwikicopyright LSL Wiki Copyright] were added in time / valid, it's still incompatible. LSL Wiki mentions that re-use of content is OK for non-commercial use, while [http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/ CC BY-SA 3.0] allows commercial use.
:: It's a pain :-/
:: --[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 04:52, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

== UTF8ToUnicodeInteger(UnicodeIntegerToUTF8(65536)) ; ==

Object: Object [script:New Script] Script run-time error
Object: System.ArgumentException: Partial character sequence at end of input
Parameter name: string
at (wrapper managed-to-native) LindenLab.SecondLife.Library:llStringToBase64 (string)
at ....gUTF8ToUnicodeInteger (System.String input) [0x00000]
at ....edefaultstate_entry () [0x00000]
at ...edefaultstate_entryFrame.ResumeVoid () [0x00000]
at LindenLab.SecondLife.UThread.UThread.Run () [0x00000]
at LindenLab.SecondLife.Script.Run (ScriptEvent evt) [0x00000]

Sim versio:Second Life Server 1.32.0.136920

Shouldn't it fail more gracefully than that? --[[User:TigroSpottystripes Katsu|TigroSpottystripes Katsu]] 23:09, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

:LOL yes but that isn't my error. Could you post the code you used to generate that (there are several versions of those functions out there and I'm really curious). If you haven't already, you should post a Jira on the issue, 65536 is a valid input and assuming my code is flawless it shouldn't crash. I've got an idea what the problem is though (llStringToBase64 only supports UCS-2 and not UTF-16; multi-{{HoverText|word|2 bytes}} characters are not supported). -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 05:49, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

:Before a Jira is to be posted I need to verify that the version your running isn't bugged. There is something definitely unfinished about this area of code as was exposed in {{JIRA|SVC-1964}}. Some other character code I had written was causing the exact same script crash. Once we simplify this repro I think we need to send up a bug report for llStringToBase64. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 06:01, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

:I've posted a preliminary JIRA ~ {{Jira|SVC-5009}}. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 06:09, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

== [[User_talk:Soft_Linden#sensor_caveat]] ==

Strife and Zai, Just a note to ask if you can keep an eye on [[User_talk:Soft_Linden#sensor_caveat]], I noticed that it's linked at least twice on [[Sensor]] and quite possibly a few other places (unfortunately there's no what links here for header anchors) so if Soft archives the discussion it will break a bunch of links. I'm not about to go on Soft's talk page and ask him not to ever archive a discussion but since you two keep a very close eye on anything that changes anywhere on the wiki I figured you might see if it's ever disturbed. Thanks. [[User:Gordon_Wendt|''GW'']] ([[User talk:Gordon_Wendt|T]]|[[Special:Contributions/Gordon Wendt|C]]) -- 15:03, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

User talk:Gordon Wendt

2009-10-29T00:39:46Z

Gordon Wendt: /* Linking localized versions */ comment

{| class="boilerplate" id="pd" style="width:80%; margin: 0 auto; border:2px solid #FFD595; padding:5px; background-color: #FFF0D9;" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="4"
| '''NOTE:'''
| To make reading this page easier, when replying to a comment or edit that I have left please quote the comment and/or link to the page where the comment/edit was. Please use a new header (hit the plus sign to the right of the edit button on the top menu bar) and use the [[template:message|<nowiki>{{message}}</nowiki>]] tag at the beginning of your comment. I will generally reply here to keep discussions unfragmented unless you specifically request otherwise.
|}

==No Title==
{{message}}
I saw you were playing with [[Template:LSL Generic/request]], it's a generic LSL template that can be used with functions, events and constants; not just functions. -- [[User:Strife Onizuka|Strife Onizuka]] 13:57, 8 June 2008 (PDT)
*I tweaked the generic one to create a notice for the request page (since it's a single use item I didn't create a new template I just copied over my tweaked css to it) just to clarify to people that non of the functions on that page are active and are just proposed functions. [[User:Gordon Wendt|Gordon Wendt]] 14:01, 8 June 2008 (PDT)

== Employee Category ==

{{message}}Heyas :-) Re: ''added [[:Category:Linden Lab Employees]] not sure why this wasn't added before'': 
Char Linden [https://wiki.secondlife.com/w/index.php?title=User%3ADusty_Linden&diff=211093&oldid=87299 removed the Category from Dusty's userpage] some time ago. I don't know why, as there was no comment anywhere. --[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 14:18, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
::Thanks for the info, I don't feel like pre-emptively removing it again just because it's been removed before since he is a LL employee but if it's removed again then it's removed again. [[User:Gordon_Wendt|''GW'']] ([[User talk:Gordon_Wendt|T]]|[[Special:Contributions/Gordon Wendt|C]]) -- 16:04, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

:::It's possible that some Lindens are really contractors and aren't employees. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 17:22, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

== Linking localized versions ==
{{message}} Heyas Gordon! :-) 
Sorry for just [https://wiki.secondlife.com/w/index.php?title=I_submitted_a_Knowledge_Base_Suggestion_ticket_for_a_Support-related_issue_instead_of_a_KB_suggestion._Why_won%27t_you_forward_my_ticket%3F&diff=next&oldid=608853 undo-ing your change], though the German header shouldn't be in the English article. Furthest would be to have the English header <nowiki>{{</nowiki>Help|noMultiLang=*}} in there, though I think that LL doesn't want to have that one either. I hope we won't have to deal with this situation for long and that the [[Help Portal]] is soon merged into KB articles. 
As of linking localized versions: I put together [[User:Zai Lynch/Sandbox/Temp|a list]] that's readable for a bot like [[User:Wiki Scribe|Wiki]], though I'm not able to fully deploy it, since it contains lots of LLO articles, which I'm not able to edit. I'll poke for some Linden help on this one, am meeting with Noelle on Wednesday and am hoping that the issue is resolved till the end of the week. I'd ask you to not create redirects until then, since it would then make it harder to do the linking in an automatted way. It's an ugly situation and I hoped that the KB wouldn't be announced on the blog until it's resolved... though well :-/ ... 
--[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 03:21, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
:Is there a way to do header linking like we currently do with articles that have a articlename/es, articlename/de, etc.... article in the general help header, like the german version of the article seems to have done? There has to be a better way to do this. [[User:Gordon_Wendt|''GW'']] ([[User talk:Gordon_Wendt|T]]|[[Special:Contributions/Gordon Wendt|C]]) -- 23:18, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
:::I'm not 100% sure if I understood it (please correct me when I'm wrong), but when you're talking about the language bar:
:::That started as a work-around for the problem that the English articles happened to be outside of the Wiki. Instead of using the established templates for interwiki linking, we had to create something that is
:::*includable in all translated versions of an article in order to represent the right links without the need of updating each translated page
:::*linking into the parature KB
:::additionally, it seemed benefitting to also use this for documentation purposes. So I made [[Template:Kbl10n]] and the related subpages. It allows to wrap information in different styles, like language bar, table or other more exotic styles, like I need them to configure the Wiki bot for link fixes. E.g., when you look at the code of [[User:Zai Lynch/Sandbox/Temp]], you'll notice that it only includes templates and that these are displaying the infos in the way I need them to create [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Pywikipediabot/pagefromfile.py such a file]. Same with [[CT_Project_Overview/1|this overview page]]. The language headers are the same template, just in another mode.
:::This approach was needed at the time it was made, but turned obsolete now. By now, we can use [[Template:Multi-lang]] and create redirects from <English name>/<ISO 639-1 code> to the localized page. Seems still more cumbersome than just adding links like <nowiki>[[de:German Name]]</nowiki> to the English page (etc), but offers other benefits that I wouldn't want to miss (like an update notification feature etc. ... "Just" need to properly document it and tell doc team how to use it).
:::To cut a long story short, [[Template:Multi-lang]] supports what we need to have localized articletitles while still having all benefits of a template over a stray link. If the Kbl10n templates will be replaced by multi-lang, or if they'll just wrap the info to then include multi-lang, is still to be decided by the localization team.
:::However, regardless of the way that's choosen, all English KB articles should point to their localized counterparts very soon. Like I said, I'm hoping to have it sorted till the end of the week. At least all localized pages are pointing to the Wiki version of the KB now (in the headers).
:::--[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 00:42, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
::Also, the German version of the article has a help header so that needs to be dealt with, I'll assume that this is an unwritten LL rule not just you asserting your preference as an unwritten rule, if there aren't going to be help headers on KB articles then it needs to be made into a written rule and it needs to be applied to all languages of an article either with the header or without, I think with is better in the long run even if that means a lot of work, checking and implementing this could be done automatically with a bot. [[User:Gordon_Wendt|''GW'']] ([[User talk:Gordon_Wendt|T]]|[[Special:Contributions/Gordon Wendt|C]]) -- 23:21, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
::::Oh it's not my preference to seperate KB and [[Help Portal]]. It's exactly the opposit. I'd love to have them as close together as posible, since I feel somehow connected to it's creation and would like to see it bloom. The reason why the localized KBs got these, is historical again. The localized KBs were (and are) imported piece by piece, rather than having a complete bulk to cover all topics of SL. Therefor it seemed reasonable to connect localized KBs with localized portals, to have a greater resource of topics covered. So we merged categories. In order to still be able to distinguish KB articles from HP articles, KB articles end with (KB) in the title. Well most do... there are only a few which don't, since we might step away from that again in order to provide easier linkability (closing bracket in the end is not parsed correctly in most cases) and in order to sync it with the English counterpart. However, the localized KBs are using the same categories as the localized Help Portals. The KB pages also got merged in the Help Header. The English KB however has it's own categories now and doesn't share any content with the HP. I should have specified it better when I wrote it: It ''seems to me'' that it's an unwritten policy ''by the documentation team'', to have the ''English'' KB articles not contain a Help header. However, we might back that up via the KB2Wiki mailing list. Though the localized KBs, which are under the hood of the ''localization team'', got these currently merged. If this will stay the way it is, is an open question, and I actually doubt that it will stay. I know Noelle wants to have KB categories translated and we're currently waiting for [[KB_Category_Reorganization|this issue]] beeing resolved before work starts on it. As you see, there is much flow at the moment, since the situation is just changing very fast with the KB2Wiki import. At the moment, the header should stay at the localized version, since it is also a KB header, not just a "Help Portal"-header anymore.
::::The Kbl10n template used in that article and providing the actual linking tho, is independant from the Help Header. --[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 00:42, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
:::[[Ich habe ein Ticket als Typ „Knowledge Base Suggestions" eingereicht, es handelt sich hierbei jedoch um ein Problem für Support. Warum leiten Sie mein Ticket nicht weiter?]] was the article I was thinking of btw, I took the liberty of removing the help header per your unwritten rule although that breaks any ability to find the English version of the article, rules are rules apparently, especially when I can catch you on the fact that they don't make any sense :) [[User:Gordon_Wendt|''GW'']] ([[User talk:Gordon_Wendt|T]]|[[Special:Contributions/Gordon Wendt|C]]) -- 00:04, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
::::Yes, I thought so and I hope it makes somehow sense by reading the above. :-)
::::Am putting the header back in place.
::::--[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 00:42, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
::::: Please keep me up to date on this if you can, if you guys figure out a better way to organize and link these articles it would be nice to know. [[User:Gordon_Wendt|''GW'']] ([[User talk:Gordon_Wendt|T]]|[[Special:Contributions/Gordon Wendt|C]]) -- 06:40, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
:::::: OK, will do :-) --[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 07:54, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
:::::::Short update: [[User:Simone Linden|Simone]] is going to give me a helping hand and we'll try to battle the beast, starting in about 4 hours, using a clone of [[Template:Multi-lang]]. I guess you'll see it soon. I'm now to tired for many words and will drop dead to bed for 240mins of sleep. nini :-)
:::::::--[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 03:37, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
:::::::: Thanks, it looks good, hopefully it will link up properly with both subpaged translations and translations with their own page (even the ridiculously long German ones), can most of the linking of various articles be done by bot (as your test page shows) or is going to take up a lot of hand work as well? I really hope you are sleeping more than 14400 seconds a night. [[User:Gordon_Wendt|''GW'']] ([[User talk:Gordon_Wendt|T]]|[[Special:Contributions/Gordon Wendt|C]]) -- 03:46, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
::::::::: I ''hope'' that it won't require any manual treatment, though beeing realistic: This import will have some flaws which we'll need to notice and correct in time. Though should go fine now, I hope. We'll have many bot runs as pages are also supposed to move from ''NAME_(KB)'' to ''NAME'', treated with protection, etc. Let's hope it works as good as possible after the 2.5 hours of link tweaking and double checking yesterday...
::::::::: Yeah, it happens that I'm occassionally sleeping longer. Not through this week though ^_^;
::::::::: --[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 07:35, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
:OK, all articles should be covered now... The English ones using language links via the sidebar, the localized ones still via the header. Will change that on Sunday so they all use the sidebar from now on.
:As expected, we spotted sporadic fails. Nothing major tho. "Just" articles that somehow fell through the cracks. I'm not sure if I cought all (actually I'm pretty sure that I didn't) and will check again on Sunday (hardly free time till then). When you spot something really weird meanwhile, please let me know.
:Greetz, --[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 12:39, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
:P.S.: And something in the flagged revs seems to occassionatly interfer... Maybe cause they are still lacking initial review for the template change. Not sure yet and will investigate later. --[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 12:48, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
::I thought you guys worked out most of the issues with flaggredrevs causing problems with templates on articles (sigh), I guess all we can do is grab them as we catch them and do useless reflagging and null editing to force updates, depending on the cause. [[User:Gordon_Wendt|''GW'']] ([[User talk:Gordon_Wendt|T]]|[[Special:Contributions/Gordon Wendt|C]]) -- 21:31, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
:::<strike>The problem seems to be only identified and a solution is suggested, but it's not yet solved. The solution would be, to be able to put templates under revision control as well. It's not possible at the moment, but I hope it will be soon...</strike> --[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 14:17, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
:::Seems to be something else. Template is reviewable... --[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 14:32, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
::::I really hope there's a better solution than flagging every template we need for review, I think that would be very burdensome. [[User:Gordon_Wendt|''GW'']] ([[User talk:Gordon_Wendt|T]]|[[Special:Contributions/Gordon Wendt|C]]) -- 23:09, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
:::::For reasons I'll keep off the public wiki (feel free to IM me if you really want to know) I'm no longer a reviewer so at least the flaggedrevs portion of this is outside of my area but I trust you'll find a good solution and I still have an interest in how articles are categorized and labelled. [[User:Gordon_Wendt|''GW'']] ([[User talk:Gordon_Wendt|T]]|[[Special:Contributions/Gordon Wendt|C]]) -- 00:39, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

User talk:Torley Linden

2009-10-28T17:32:39Z

Gordon Wendt: /* reviewer status */ reply

'''Please add new stuff on ''top'', thank-you!'''

== reviewer status ==

Torley, I was wondering why my status as a reviewer was removed? Not sure if this is related to what happened earlier today but any insight either from you or Alexa would be appreciated. [[User:Gordon_Wendt|''GW'']] ([[User talk:Gordon_Wendt|T]]|[[Special:Contributions/Gordon Wendt|C]]) -- 01:41, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
: I've emailed you about this. '''- [[Image:Torley-favicon.png]] [[User:Torley Linden|Torley]] on 2009-10-28 @ 8:06 AM PST'''
:: I did not recieve the email, my email can be a bit strange sometimes, I'll IM you with an alternate email you can try. [[User:Gordon_Wendt|''GW'']] ([[User talk:Gordon_Wendt|T]]|[[Special:Contributions/Gordon Wendt|C]]) -- 16:41, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
::: Recieved and replied to. Thanks for re-sending. [[User:Gordon_Wendt|''GW'']] ([[User talk:Gordon_Wendt|T]]|[[Special:Contributions/Gordon Wendt|C]]) -- 17:32, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

== 2 weird articles ==
Heyas! Me again :-) 
Just stumbled about these two articles which feature the exact same content and which titles are '''wacko''' o.O. Can you fix?
*[[Region down regions down region down regions down]]
*[[Rollback rollback rollback roll back roll back]]
--[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 17:31, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
: Oh yeah! Keep adding any more you find right here, I'll be refreshing my talk page later after I get through your first (email) list... THANXARAMA. '''- [[Image:Torley-favicon.png]] [[User:Torley Linden|Torley]] on 2009-10-14 @ 10:35 AM PST'''
::OK, am done Fixing all micro formatting flaws (that I could find) in main namespace KB articles.
::Not much but here's what I found, noted and didn't correct on my own but here's what I remember right now:
::[[What is an avatar key?]] is same as [[What is a UUID?]]. Should be "an" UUID anyway, or?
::Three images in [[Tips and Tricks: Better Building with Primfficiency!]] aren't working ([https://d3.parature.com/ics/support/default.asp?deptID=4417&task=knowledge&questionID=4116 weren't working in Parature either]).
::Also, the [[Style Guide]] mentions that the first appearance of trademarked terms should have their related trademark symbols. [[Template:Seal]] contains the terms "Second Life" and "Linden Lab". Would be clever to add ® there, then we won't have to manually fix it in each article for the actual content.
::Maybe a link to the [[Community Translation Project]] would be a good idea in there. We're having no obvious link where people are encouraged to translate articles (would be of great benefit for the CT Project.
::[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 18:28, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
::: What a journey it's been! Fixed those and added notes where necessary. "Would be clever..." is VERY CLEVER INDEED! I'll let the list know (for this and other localization tasks that are related to KB work but not in the Doc Team's direct responsibilities). Also, I want to promote CTP more but need to get Noelle & Team's approval. So let's wait on them. '''- [[Image:Torley-favicon.png]] [[User:Torley Linden|Torley]] on 2009-10-14 @ 4:01 PM PST'''

:Heyas :-)
:Yeah, was an awesome editing rampage you had there! It [[User:Zai_Lynch/Wiki_Spammer_Ranking|pushed you up to #3]] ^_^
:Alerted by an edit of [[User:JamesG Comsys|JamesG Comsys]], I noticed that there are three articles currently linking to a non-existend [[Concierge Support contact information]] article. These are:
:* [[Linden Lab Official:Private Region (Island) Transfer Process]]
:* [[Linden Lab Official:What's Concierge service and how do I get it?]]
:* [[Linden Lab Official:What are the different levels of account membership?]]
:I guess [[Concierge Support contact information]] might be one of the articles that should still be in Parature, since LL only makes these available to people with the right account status. So the blank Wiki article would best be removed and the LLO article links updated to point back to parature.
:--[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 17:06, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
:: Good gosh, I can't have anyone thinking I'm slacking off here. ;) Thanx re: those Concierge articles, my able colleagues are inspecting that now. '''- [[Image:Torley-favicon.png]] [[User:Torley Linden|Torley]] on 2009-10-19 @ 10:10 AM PST'''

== Templates ==
Heyas :-) 
To remarks about templates. One is related to the [[Template:Navbox]] subpages. I think, rather than using templates inside a navbox, it would be better to use a navbox inside a template. The advantages are: More freedom to change the appearance and less to type when you want to include it in an article. 
So instead of
<pre>
{{Navbox
|title={{Navbox/Adult-title}}
|content={{Navbox/Adult}}
}}</pre>
You'd create one [[Template:Adult Navbox]] and then use a <nowiki>{{</nowiki>Navbox|title=something|content=something else}} inside of it. You'd just have to add <nowiki>{{</nowiki>Adult Navbox}} to articles (looks cleaner) and you can style changes in the Adult Navbox without having to change the Navbox template (or all articles using it).

Another thing: some tags don't like wikicode as an argument. They don't interpret it as wikicode. <nowiki><videoflash>, <lsl> and <pre></nowiki> belong to these. They need to be treated with a <nowiki>{{</nowiki>#tag|parameter|argument1=value1|argument2=value2}} kind of setup, see [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Magic_words#Formatting the one on the bottom here]. I changed it for [[Template:KBvideo]].

cu :-) --[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 18:47, 12 October 2009 (UTC) 
P.S: After I realized that "greets" isn't a proper way to say "sincerly yours" in a less formal way in English, I'm in the dilemma of lacking a flowery phrase to end my mails and comments :-/ ^^
: Hey Zai! I thought about "it would be better to use a navbox inside a template" too. But here's the problem: then what happens if I want to change the UNIVERSAL STYLE of all those navboxes? Or, what if I just want to include the article listing WITHOUT the box, as on [[:Category:Adult]]? Anyway, we're still in the early stages here, so if this ends up being awkward, it surely will be replaced by a better way. That's evolution.
: I'll check [[Template:KBvideo]] soon and appreciate your attention to detail.
: "Greets" or "Cheers" is cool with me... heck, invent your unique own! '''- [[Image:Torley-favicon.png]] [[User:Torley Linden|Torley]] on 2009-10-12 @ 11:57 AM PST'''
:: I thought this through some more (nested templates demand nested logic!) and now clearly understand the [[Template:Navbox]] benefits you're pointing out to me! I also misunderstood how styles get applied, so ignore my "UNIVERSAL STYLE" question. I'm going to make your suggested ''superior'' change to the "Adult" and "Xstreet" ones shortly. Good to catch this early! '''- [[Image:Torley-favicon.png]] [[User:Torley Linden|Torley]] on 2009-10-12 @ 12:39 PM PST'''

:::Very welcome :-) btw: The <nowiki>{{#tag...etc</nowiki> markup workaround is attributed to Kuraiko. We had the same problem yesterday in another Wiki and he found the solution. Some documentation is really hidden away where you'd not expect it to be ^^
:::Cyas :-) --[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 00:14, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

== Flagged Revs ==
Heyas Torley! :-) 
I'm pretty sure you'd be interested in reading [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension_talk:FlaggedRevs#Enable_FlaggedRevs_only_on_specific_pages.3F Enable FlaggedRevs only on specific pages]. I didn't test it yet... But the answer came from one of the two Flagged Revs developers. Cheers =) --[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 01:52, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
: YO ZAI! I'm back from the weekend and ready to rock. YES, THANK YOU for the proactive research — I'll check this out and make sure our Migration Team sees it. '''- [[Image:Torley-favicon.png]] [[User:Torley Linden|Torley]] on 2009-09-08 @ 7:49 AM PST'''

:: Kewl, thx and ROCK ON! ^^ --[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 19:18, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

== [[Funny]] ==

Just a short heads-up, that you pasted the wrong URL [https://wiki.secondlife.com/w/index.php?title=Funny&diff=prev&oldid=459502 over here]. I dunno which is the right one, or I would have corrected it... :-) 
--[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 05:59, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

== Can you fix a kinda embarassing word choice error of mine that got archived please? ==

a while ago, I was under the mistaken impression that the slang "bollocks" could be used in the same way as the slangs "damn" and "crap", though more recently I've read it is supposed to be used for a different meaning, would it be possible to replace the instance of that slang that got archived with the last version of my comment about my first link the Joss Stone video with your colortheme having become invalid, with "balls" please? (that one I'm sure I've seen british people using in the way I intended to)--[[User:TigroSpottystripes Katsu|TigroSpottystripes Katsu]] 12:53, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
: Sure, done. :) '''- [[Image:Torley-favicon.png]] [[User:Torley Linden|Torley]] on 2009-07-20 @ 7:25 AM PST'''

== Importing Wikipedia content - part 2 ==
Torley, can you take a look at and chime in on [[Project:Editing_Discussion#Wikipedia_content_-_part_2]]? It's in regards to the steps that need to be taken on this end to implement Wikipedia content. Thanks. [[User:Gordon_Wendt|''GW'']] ([[User talk:Gordon_Wendt|T]]|[[Special:Contributions/Gordon Wendt|C]]) -- 17:39, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

== PNGs ==
{{OptiPNG FTW!}}
: Please point me to any problematic images. I sometimes upload large screenshots but have them dynamically resized by MediaWiki into smaller JPGs, so the original PNG isn't shown in the page, anyway. '''- [[Image:Torley-favicon.png]] [[User:Torley Linden|Torley]] on 2009-05-06 @ 6:00 AM PST'''

== Hippos and Robots ==
Whoever is responsible for {{slkb|6|Hippo}} and {{slkb|19|Robots}}, please give them my kudos (^_^) 
Greetz, [[Image:Zai_signature.png|45px]] '''[[User:Zai Lynch|Lynch]]''' ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 18:20, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
: I'll be sure to salute them all HIPPOTRONIC. With extra Auto-Tune on top. '''- [[Image:Torley-favicon.png]] [[User:Torley Linden|Torley]] on 2009-04-29 @ 12:05 PM PST'''
: So ahhh how'd you find these? And are there any others that are hilarious but not "real" KB articles? '''- [[Image:Torley-favicon.png]] [[User:Torley Linden|Torley]] on 2009-04-29 @ 12:20 PM PST'''
::They're gone ;_;
::I found em when I searched for ''ban'' (I'm trying to populate wiki articles with KB article links) and they showed up in the search although not related... Although they're from 2007, there were hardly people who looked at them (had 20 page views before I spread the link via twitter...). I then tried to find others by manually adding KB ID's at the end of the link but with no success so far.
::[[Image:Zai_signature.png|45px]] '''[[User:Zai Lynch|Lynch]]''' ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 19:33, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
::: Yeah, we removed them, they were used for testing the KB eons ago. But they'll live on in our memory. Very clever! Hehe. '''- [[Image:Torley-favicon.png]] [[User:Torley Linden|Torley]] on 2009-04-29 @ 12:37 PM PST'''

== [[User_talk:Torley Linden/Archives|Archives]] ==

User talk:Torley Linden

2009-10-28T16:42:00Z

Gordon Wendt: /* reviewer status */

'''Please add new stuff on ''top'', thank-you!'''

== reviewer status ==

Torley, I was wondering why my status as a reviewer was removed? Not sure if this is related to what happened earlier today but any insight either from you or Alexa would be appreciated. [[User:Gordon_Wendt|''GW'']] ([[User talk:Gordon_Wendt|T]]|[[Special:Contributions/Gordon Wendt|C]]) -- 01:41, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
: I've emailed you about this. '''- [[Image:Torley-favicon.png]] [[User:Torley Linden|Torley]] on 2009-10-28 @ 8:06 AM PST'''
:: I did not recieve the email, my email can be a bit strange sometimes, I'll IM you with an alternate email you can try. [[User:Gordon_Wendt|''GW'']] ([[User talk:Gordon_Wendt|T]]|[[Special:Contributions/Gordon Wendt|C]]) -- 16:41, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

== 2 weird articles ==
Heyas! Me again :-) 
Just stumbled about these two articles which feature the exact same content and which titles are '''wacko''' o.O. Can you fix?
*[[Region down regions down region down regions down]]
*[[Rollback rollback rollback roll back roll back]]
--[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 17:31, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
: Oh yeah! Keep adding any more you find right here, I'll be refreshing my talk page later after I get through your first (email) list... THANXARAMA. '''- [[Image:Torley-favicon.png]] [[User:Torley Linden|Torley]] on 2009-10-14 @ 10:35 AM PST'''
::OK, am done Fixing all micro formatting flaws (that I could find) in main namespace KB articles.
::Not much but here's what I found, noted and didn't correct on my own but here's what I remember right now:
::[[What is an avatar key?]] is same as [[What is a UUID?]]. Should be "an" UUID anyway, or?
::Three images in [[Tips and Tricks: Better Building with Primfficiency!]] aren't working ([https://d3.parature.com/ics/support/default.asp?deptID=4417&task=knowledge&questionID=4116 weren't working in Parature either]).
::Also, the [[Style Guide]] mentions that the first appearance of trademarked terms should have their related trademark symbols. [[Template:Seal]] contains the terms "Second Life" and "Linden Lab". Would be clever to add ® there, then we won't have to manually fix it in each article for the actual content.
::Maybe a link to the [[Community Translation Project]] would be a good idea in there. We're having no obvious link where people are encouraged to translate articles (would be of great benefit for the CT Project.
::[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 18:28, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
::: What a journey it's been! Fixed those and added notes where necessary. "Would be clever..." is VERY CLEVER INDEED! I'll let the list know (for this and other localization tasks that are related to KB work but not in the Doc Team's direct responsibilities). Also, I want to promote CTP more but need to get Noelle & Team's approval. So let's wait on them. '''- [[Image:Torley-favicon.png]] [[User:Torley Linden|Torley]] on 2009-10-14 @ 4:01 PM PST'''

:Heyas :-)
:Yeah, was an awesome editing rampage you had there! It [[User:Zai_Lynch/Wiki_Spammer_Ranking|pushed you up to #3]] ^_^
:Alerted by an edit of [[User:JamesG Comsys|JamesG Comsys]], I noticed that there are three articles currently linking to a non-existend [[Concierge Support contact information]] article. These are:
:* [[Linden Lab Official:Private Region (Island) Transfer Process]]
:* [[Linden Lab Official:What's Concierge service and how do I get it?]]
:* [[Linden Lab Official:What are the different levels of account membership?]]
:I guess [[Concierge Support contact information]] might be one of the articles that should still be in Parature, since LL only makes these available to people with the right account status. So the blank Wiki article would best be removed and the LLO article links updated to point back to parature.
:--[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 17:06, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
:: Good gosh, I can't have anyone thinking I'm slacking off here. ;) Thanx re: those Concierge articles, my able colleagues are inspecting that now. '''- [[Image:Torley-favicon.png]] [[User:Torley Linden|Torley]] on 2009-10-19 @ 10:10 AM PST'''

== Templates ==
Heyas :-) 
To remarks about templates. One is related to the [[Template:Navbox]] subpages. I think, rather than using templates inside a navbox, it would be better to use a navbox inside a template. The advantages are: More freedom to change the appearance and less to type when you want to include it in an article. 
So instead of
<pre>
{{Navbox
|title={{Navbox/Adult-title}}
|content={{Navbox/Adult}}
}}</pre>
You'd create one [[Template:Adult Navbox]] and then use a <nowiki>{{</nowiki>Navbox|title=something|content=something else}} inside of it. You'd just have to add <nowiki>{{</nowiki>Adult Navbox}} to articles (looks cleaner) and you can style changes in the Adult Navbox without having to change the Navbox template (or all articles using it).

Another thing: some tags don't like wikicode as an argument. They don't interpret it as wikicode. <nowiki><videoflash>, <lsl> and <pre></nowiki> belong to these. They need to be treated with a <nowiki>{{</nowiki>#tag|parameter|argument1=value1|argument2=value2}} kind of setup, see [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Magic_words#Formatting the one on the bottom here]. I changed it for [[Template:KBvideo]].

cu :-) --[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 18:47, 12 October 2009 (UTC) 
P.S: After I realized that "greets" isn't a proper way to say "sincerly yours" in a less formal way in English, I'm in the dilemma of lacking a flowery phrase to end my mails and comments :-/ ^^
: Hey Zai! I thought about "it would be better to use a navbox inside a template" too. But here's the problem: then what happens if I want to change the UNIVERSAL STYLE of all those navboxes? Or, what if I just want to include the article listing WITHOUT the box, as on [[:Category:Adult]]? Anyway, we're still in the early stages here, so if this ends up being awkward, it surely will be replaced by a better way. That's evolution.
: I'll check [[Template:KBvideo]] soon and appreciate your attention to detail.
: "Greets" or "Cheers" is cool with me... heck, invent your unique own! '''- [[Image:Torley-favicon.png]] [[User:Torley Linden|Torley]] on 2009-10-12 @ 11:57 AM PST'''
:: I thought this through some more (nested templates demand nested logic!) and now clearly understand the [[Template:Navbox]] benefits you're pointing out to me! I also misunderstood how styles get applied, so ignore my "UNIVERSAL STYLE" question. I'm going to make your suggested ''superior'' change to the "Adult" and "Xstreet" ones shortly. Good to catch this early! '''- [[Image:Torley-favicon.png]] [[User:Torley Linden|Torley]] on 2009-10-12 @ 12:39 PM PST'''

:::Very welcome :-) btw: The <nowiki>{{#tag...etc</nowiki> markup workaround is attributed to Kuraiko. We had the same problem yesterday in another Wiki and he found the solution. Some documentation is really hidden away where you'd not expect it to be ^^
:::Cyas :-) --[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 00:14, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

== Flagged Revs ==
Heyas Torley! :-) 
I'm pretty sure you'd be interested in reading [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension_talk:FlaggedRevs#Enable_FlaggedRevs_only_on_specific_pages.3F Enable FlaggedRevs only on specific pages]. I didn't test it yet... But the answer came from one of the two Flagged Revs developers. Cheers =) --[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 01:52, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
: YO ZAI! I'm back from the weekend and ready to rock. YES, THANK YOU for the proactive research — I'll check this out and make sure our Migration Team sees it. '''- [[Image:Torley-favicon.png]] [[User:Torley Linden|Torley]] on 2009-09-08 @ 7:49 AM PST'''

:: Kewl, thx and ROCK ON! ^^ --[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 19:18, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

== [[Funny]] ==

Just a short heads-up, that you pasted the wrong URL [https://wiki.secondlife.com/w/index.php?title=Funny&diff=prev&oldid=459502 over here]. I dunno which is the right one, or I would have corrected it... :-) 
--[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 05:59, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

== Can you fix a kinda embarassing word choice error of mine that got archived please? ==

a while ago, I was under the mistaken impression that the slang "bollocks" could be used in the same way as the slangs "damn" and "crap", though more recently I've read it is supposed to be used for a different meaning, would it be possible to replace the instance of that slang that got archived with the last version of my comment about my first link the Joss Stone video with your colortheme having become invalid, with "balls" please? (that one I'm sure I've seen british people using in the way I intended to)--[[User:TigroSpottystripes Katsu|TigroSpottystripes Katsu]] 12:53, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
: Sure, done. :) '''- [[Image:Torley-favicon.png]] [[User:Torley Linden|Torley]] on 2009-07-20 @ 7:25 AM PST'''

== Importing Wikipedia content - part 2 ==
Torley, can you take a look at and chime in on [[Project:Editing_Discussion#Wikipedia_content_-_part_2]]? It's in regards to the steps that need to be taken on this end to implement Wikipedia content. Thanks. [[User:Gordon_Wendt|''GW'']] ([[User talk:Gordon_Wendt|T]]|[[Special:Contributions/Gordon Wendt|C]]) -- 17:39, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

== PNGs ==
{{OptiPNG FTW!}}
: Please point me to any problematic images. I sometimes upload large screenshots but have them dynamically resized by MediaWiki into smaller JPGs, so the original PNG isn't shown in the page, anyway. '''- [[Image:Torley-favicon.png]] [[User:Torley Linden|Torley]] on 2009-05-06 @ 6:00 AM PST'''

== Hippos and Robots ==
Whoever is responsible for {{slkb|6|Hippo}} and {{slkb|19|Robots}}, please give them my kudos (^_^) 
Greetz, [[Image:Zai_signature.png|45px]] '''[[User:Zai Lynch|Lynch]]''' ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 18:20, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
: I'll be sure to salute them all HIPPOTRONIC. With extra Auto-Tune on top. '''- [[Image:Torley-favicon.png]] [[User:Torley Linden|Torley]] on 2009-04-29 @ 12:05 PM PST'''
: So ahhh how'd you find these? And are there any others that are hilarious but not "real" KB articles? '''- [[Image:Torley-favicon.png]] [[User:Torley Linden|Torley]] on 2009-04-29 @ 12:20 PM PST'''
::They're gone ;_;
::I found em when I searched for ''ban'' (I'm trying to populate wiki articles with KB article links) and they showed up in the search although not related... Although they're from 2007, there were hardly people who looked at them (had 20 page views before I spread the link via twitter...). I then tried to find others by manually adding KB ID's at the end of the link but with no success so far.
::[[Image:Zai_signature.png|45px]] '''[[User:Zai Lynch|Lynch]]''' ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 19:33, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
::: Yeah, we removed them, they were used for testing the KB eons ago. But they'll live on in our memory. Very clever! Hehe. '''- [[Image:Torley-favicon.png]] [[User:Torley Linden|Torley]] on 2009-04-29 @ 12:37 PM PST'''

== [[User_talk:Torley Linden/Archives|Archives]] ==

User:Gordon Wendt

2009-10-28T01:44:40Z

Gordon Wendt:

<div id="background" style="border:2px solid #AAAAAA; background-color:#EEEEEE;padding:10; visibility: visible">
__NOEDITSECTION__
{{/gridlist}}

{{visl
|name=Gordon Wendt
|Mentors=*
|}}
{{skills
|Builder=*
|Scripter=*
|}}

{{SL-hCard/2.0
|account=Resident
|name=Gordon Wendt
|image=GW.jpg
|rezday=May 10th 2006 -- {{CountDown|10|05|2010| {{#var:a}} days until my rez day|Today is my rez day|Companion Cube not found}}
|about= I don't tweet as much as I should but I can also be found on twitter [http://www.twitter.com/GWendt here].
|fields={{SL-hCard/field|Achievements/Tasks|
*[[Mentor]]
*Builder
*Scripter
*Tester
*

|links=
*[http://www.twitter.com/GWendt GWendt]
}}
}}

__TOC__

{| class="quote" id="DIS" style="width:auto; margin: auto; border:2px solid #FFCC00; padding:5px; background-color: #FFF0D9;" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="4"
| <center>''"Around here, however, we don't look backwards for very long. We keep moving forward, opening up new doors and doing new things, because we're curious...and curiosity keeps leading us down new paths."''

 '''-Walt Disney'''</center>
|}

{| class="quote" id="Random" style="width:auto; margin: auto; border:2px solid #CCCCCC; padding:5px; background-color: #FFFFFF;" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="4"
|[[Image:Icons_parature_warning.jpg]]
|<center>'''[[Special:Random|Error 42: Universe not found, please contact the mice for assistance]]'''</center>
|[[Image:Icons_parature_warning.jpg]]
|}

== JIRA ==

=== General ===
*[http://jira.secondlife.com/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?reset=true&&created%3Aprevious=-1d&sorter/field=issuekey&sorter/order=DESC Issues created in the last 24 hours]
*[http://jira.secondlife.com/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?reset=true&&updated%3Aprevious=-1d&sorter/field=issuekey&sorter/order=DESC Issues updated in the last 24 hours]

=== Specific to me ===
{{Jira Reporter}}


==People==
*{{User|Strife Onizuka}} - Too much useful stuff to actually describe here
*{{User|Zai Lynch}} - Wizard of the wiki markup
*{{User|Michelle2 Zenovka}} - Great cmake instructions for building the viewer
*{{User|Lex Neva}} - again, too many great contributions to count and/or describe
*{{User|Harleen Gretzky}} - one of the great people on the JIRA
*{{User|Jesse Barnett}} - Scripter Extraordinaire

==Meetings I try to attend==
*[[Bug triage]] - The main page for the bug triage meetings
*[[Open Source Meeting]] - The main page for the open source meetings
*[[User Experience Interest Group]] - The main for the User Experience Interest Group Meetings

== Useful pages ==
*[[Special:OldReviewedPages]] - Old reviewed pages --- RESTRICTED ACCESS TO REVIEWERS AND ADMINS
*[[Special:Random]] - Directs to a random page on the wiki
*[[Special:SpecialPages]] - A list of all the special pages for the wiki
*[[Submitting_code]] - Info on how to submit code as well as the proper way to create a patch
*[[Office Hours]] - A listing of all the Lindens' Office Hours
*[[Help:Editors_Toolbox]] - A list of helpful wiki templates
*[http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Magic_words Mediawiki magic words page]

== Miscellaneous ==
[[/sandbox]] - an internal sandbox I use to test various wiki specific changes.

[[/testbed]] - For posting my experimental ideas including scripts, scraps of code, etc... --- USE AT YOUR OWN RISK

[[/scripts]] - Some scripts that I have written that I am freely releasing

[[/snippets]] - Code snippets I"m freely releasing for anyone to use

[[Category:English speaking Volunteers|Gordon Wendt]]
[[Category:English speaking Residents|Gordon Wendt]]

User talk:Torley Linden

2009-10-28T01:41:32Z

Gordon Wendt: /* reviewer status */ new section

'''Please add new stuff on ''top'', thank-you!'''

== 2 weird articles ==
Heyas! Me again :-) 
Just stumbled about these two articles which feature the exact same content and which titles are '''wacko''' o.O. Can you fix?
*[[Region down regions down region down regions down]]
*[[Rollback rollback rollback roll back roll back]]
--[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 17:31, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
: Oh yeah! Keep adding any more you find right here, I'll be refreshing my talk page later after I get through your first (email) list... THANXARAMA. '''- [[Image:Torley-favicon.png]] [[User:Torley Linden|Torley]] on 2009-10-14 @ 10:35 AM PST'''
::OK, am done Fixing all micro formatting flaws (that I could find) in main namespace KB articles.
::Not much but here's what I found, noted and didn't correct on my own but here's what I remember right now:
::[[What is an avatar key?]] is same as [[What is a UUID?]]. Should be "an" UUID anyway, or?
::Three images in [[Tips and Tricks: Better Building with Primfficiency!]] aren't working ([https://d3.parature.com/ics/support/default.asp?deptID=4417&task=knowledge&questionID=4116 weren't working in Parature either]).
::Also, the [[Style Guide]] mentions that the first appearance of trademarked terms should have their related trademark symbols. [[Template:Seal]] contains the terms "Second Life" and "Linden Lab". Would be clever to add ® there, then we won't have to manually fix it in each article for the actual content.
::Maybe a link to the [[Community Translation Project]] would be a good idea in there. We're having no obvious link where people are encouraged to translate articles (would be of great benefit for the CT Project.
::[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 18:28, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
::: What a journey it's been! Fixed those and added notes where necessary. "Would be clever..." is VERY CLEVER INDEED! I'll let the list know (for this and other localization tasks that are related to KB work but not in the Doc Team's direct responsibilities). Also, I want to promote CTP more but need to get Noelle & Team's approval. So let's wait on them. '''- [[Image:Torley-favicon.png]] [[User:Torley Linden|Torley]] on 2009-10-14 @ 4:01 PM PST'''

:Heyas :-)
:Yeah, was an awesome editing rampage you had there! It [[User:Zai_Lynch/Wiki_Spammer_Ranking|pushed you up to #3]] ^_^
:Alerted by an edit of [[User:JamesG Comsys|JamesG Comsys]], I noticed that there are three articles currently linking to a non-existend [[Concierge Support contact information]] article. These are:
:* [[Linden Lab Official:Private Region (Island) Transfer Process]]
:* [[Linden Lab Official:What's Concierge service and how do I get it?]]
:* [[Linden Lab Official:What are the different levels of account membership?]]
:I guess [[Concierge Support contact information]] might be one of the articles that should still be in Parature, since LL only makes these available to people with the right account status. So the blank Wiki article would best be removed and the LLO article links updated to point back to parature.
:--[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 17:06, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
:: Good gosh, I can't have anyone thinking I'm slacking off here. ;) Thanx re: those Concierge articles, my able colleagues are inspecting that now. '''- [[Image:Torley-favicon.png]] [[User:Torley Linden|Torley]] on 2009-10-19 @ 10:10 AM PST'''

== Templates ==
Heyas :-) 
To remarks about templates. One is related to the [[Template:Navbox]] subpages. I think, rather than using templates inside a navbox, it would be better to use a navbox inside a template. The advantages are: More freedom to change the appearance and less to type when you want to include it in an article. 
So instead of
<pre>
{{Navbox
|title={{Navbox/Adult-title}}
|content={{Navbox/Adult}}
}}</pre>
You'd create one [[Template:Adult Navbox]] and then use a <nowiki>{{</nowiki>Navbox|title=something|content=something else}} inside of it. You'd just have to add <nowiki>{{</nowiki>Adult Navbox}} to articles (looks cleaner) and you can style changes in the Adult Navbox without having to change the Navbox template (or all articles using it).

Another thing: some tags don't like wikicode as an argument. They don't interpret it as wikicode. <nowiki><videoflash>, <lsl> and <pre></nowiki> belong to these. They need to be treated with a <nowiki>{{</nowiki>#tag|parameter|argument1=value1|argument2=value2}} kind of setup, see [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Magic_words#Formatting the one on the bottom here]. I changed it for [[Template:KBvideo]].

cu :-) --[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 18:47, 12 October 2009 (UTC) 
P.S: After I realized that "greets" isn't a proper way to say "sincerly yours" in a less formal way in English, I'm in the dilemma of lacking a flowery phrase to end my mails and comments :-/ ^^
: Hey Zai! I thought about "it would be better to use a navbox inside a template" too. But here's the problem: then what happens if I want to change the UNIVERSAL STYLE of all those navboxes? Or, what if I just want to include the article listing WITHOUT the box, as on [[:Category:Adult]]? Anyway, we're still in the early stages here, so if this ends up being awkward, it surely will be replaced by a better way. That's evolution.
: I'll check [[Template:KBvideo]] soon and appreciate your attention to detail.
: "Greets" or "Cheers" is cool with me... heck, invent your unique own! '''- [[Image:Torley-favicon.png]] [[User:Torley Linden|Torley]] on 2009-10-12 @ 11:57 AM PST'''
:: I thought this through some more (nested templates demand nested logic!) and now clearly understand the [[Template:Navbox]] benefits you're pointing out to me! I also misunderstood how styles get applied, so ignore my "UNIVERSAL STYLE" question. I'm going to make your suggested ''superior'' change to the "Adult" and "Xstreet" ones shortly. Good to catch this early! '''- [[Image:Torley-favicon.png]] [[User:Torley Linden|Torley]] on 2009-10-12 @ 12:39 PM PST'''

:::Very welcome :-) btw: The <nowiki>{{#tag...etc</nowiki> markup workaround is attributed to Kuraiko. We had the same problem yesterday in another Wiki and he found the solution. Some documentation is really hidden away where you'd not expect it to be ^^
:::Cyas :-) --[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 00:14, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

== Flagged Revs ==
Heyas Torley! :-) 
I'm pretty sure you'd be interested in reading [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension_talk:FlaggedRevs#Enable_FlaggedRevs_only_on_specific_pages.3F Enable FlaggedRevs only on specific pages]. I didn't test it yet... But the answer came from one of the two Flagged Revs developers. Cheers =) --[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 01:52, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
: YO ZAI! I'm back from the weekend and ready to rock. YES, THANK YOU for the proactive research — I'll check this out and make sure our Migration Team sees it. '''- [[Image:Torley-favicon.png]] [[User:Torley Linden|Torley]] on 2009-09-08 @ 7:49 AM PST'''

:: Kewl, thx and ROCK ON! ^^ --[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 19:18, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

== [[Funny]] ==

Just a short heads-up, that you pasted the wrong URL [https://wiki.secondlife.com/w/index.php?title=Funny&diff=prev&oldid=459502 over here]. I dunno which is the right one, or I would have corrected it... :-) 
--[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 05:59, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

== Can you fix a kinda embarassing word choice error of mine that got archived please? ==

a while ago, I was under the mistaken impression that the slang "bollocks" could be used in the same way as the slangs "damn" and "crap", though more recently I've read it is supposed to be used for a different meaning, would it be possible to replace the instance of that slang that got archived with the last version of my comment about my first link the Joss Stone video with your colortheme having become invalid, with "balls" please? (that one I'm sure I've seen british people using in the way I intended to)--[[User:TigroSpottystripes Katsu|TigroSpottystripes Katsu]] 12:53, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
: Sure, done. :) '''- [[Image:Torley-favicon.png]] [[User:Torley Linden|Torley]] on 2009-07-20 @ 7:25 AM PST'''

== Importing Wikipedia content - part 2 ==
Torley, can you take a look at and chime in on [[Project:Editing_Discussion#Wikipedia_content_-_part_2]]? It's in regards to the steps that need to be taken on this end to implement Wikipedia content. Thanks. [[User:Gordon_Wendt|''GW'']] ([[User talk:Gordon_Wendt|T]]|[[Special:Contributions/Gordon Wendt|C]]) -- 17:39, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

== PNGs ==
{{OptiPNG FTW!}}
: Please point me to any problematic images. I sometimes upload large screenshots but have them dynamically resized by MediaWiki into smaller JPGs, so the original PNG isn't shown in the page, anyway. '''- [[Image:Torley-favicon.png]] [[User:Torley Linden|Torley]] on 2009-05-06 @ 6:00 AM PST'''

== Hippos and Robots ==
Whoever is responsible for {{slkb|6|Hippo}} and {{slkb|19|Robots}}, please give them my kudos (^_^) 
Greetz, [[Image:Zai_signature.png|45px]] '''[[User:Zai Lynch|Lynch]]''' ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 18:20, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
: I'll be sure to salute them all HIPPOTRONIC. With extra Auto-Tune on top. '''- [[Image:Torley-favicon.png]] [[User:Torley Linden|Torley]] on 2009-04-29 @ 12:05 PM PST'''
: So ahhh how'd you find these? And are there any others that are hilarious but not "real" KB articles? '''- [[Image:Torley-favicon.png]] [[User:Torley Linden|Torley]] on 2009-04-29 @ 12:20 PM PST'''
::They're gone ;_;
::I found em when I searched for ''ban'' (I'm trying to populate wiki articles with KB article links) and they showed up in the search although not related... Although they're from 2007, there were hardly people who looked at them (had 20 page views before I spread the link via twitter...). I then tried to find others by manually adding KB ID's at the end of the link but with no success so far.
::[[Image:Zai_signature.png|45px]] '''[[User:Zai Lynch|Lynch]]''' ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 19:33, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
::: Yeah, we removed them, they were used for testing the KB eons ago. But they'll live on in our memory. Very clever! Hehe. '''- [[Image:Torley-favicon.png]] [[User:Torley Linden|Torley]] on 2009-04-29 @ 12:37 PM PST'''

== [[User_talk:Torley Linden/Archives|Archives]] ==

== reviewer status ==

Torley, I was wondering why my status as a reviewer was removed? Not sure if this is related to what happened earlier today but any insight either from you or Alexa would be appreciated. [[User:Gordon_Wendt|''GW'']] ([[User talk:Gordon_Wendt|T]]|[[Special:Contributions/Gordon Wendt|C]]) -- 01:41, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

User talk:Gordon Wendt

2009-10-28T01:38:31Z

Gordon Wendt: /* Linking localized versions */ minor phrasing change in my sentence

User talk:Gordon Wendt

2009-10-25T23:09:36Z

Gordon Wendt: /* Linking localized versions */ reply

{| class="boilerplate" id="pd" style="width:80%; margin: 0 auto; border:2px solid #FFD595; padding:5px; background-color: #FFF0D9;" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="4"
| '''NOTE:'''
| To make reading this page easier, when replying to a comment or edit that I have left please quote the comment and/or link to the page where the comment/edit was. Please use a new header (hit the plus sign to the right of the edit button on the top menu bar) and use the [[template:message|<nowiki>{{message}}</nowiki>]] tag at the beginning of your comment. I will generally reply here to keep discussions unfragmented unless you specifically request otherwise.
|}

==No Title==
{{message}}
I saw you were playing with [[Template:LSL Generic/request]], it's a generic LSL template that can be used with functions, events and constants; not just functions. -- [[User:Strife Onizuka|Strife Onizuka]] 13:57, 8 June 2008 (PDT)
*I tweaked the generic one to create a notice for the request page (since it's a single use item I didn't create a new template I just copied over my tweaked css to it) just to clarify to people that non of the functions on that page are active and are just proposed functions. [[User:Gordon Wendt|Gordon Wendt]] 14:01, 8 June 2008 (PDT)

== Employee Category ==

{{message}}Heyas :-) Re: ''added [[:Category:Linden Lab Employees]] not sure why this wasn't added before'': 
Char Linden [https://wiki.secondlife.com/w/index.php?title=User%3ADusty_Linden&diff=211093&oldid=87299 removed the Category from Dusty's userpage] some time ago. I don't know why, as there was no comment anywhere. --[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 14:18, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
::Thanks for the info, I don't feel like pre-emptively removing it again just because it's been removed before since he is a LL employee but if it's removed again then it's removed again. [[User:Gordon_Wendt|''GW'']] ([[User talk:Gordon_Wendt|T]]|[[Special:Contributions/Gordon Wendt|C]]) -- 16:04, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

:::It's possible that some Lindens are really contractors and aren't employees. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 17:22, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

== Linking localized versions ==
{{message}} Heyas Gordon! :-) 
Sorry for just [https://wiki.secondlife.com/w/index.php?title=I_submitted_a_Knowledge_Base_Suggestion_ticket_for_a_Support-related_issue_instead_of_a_KB_suggestion._Why_won%27t_you_forward_my_ticket%3F&diff=next&oldid=608853 undo-ing your change], though the German header shouldn't be in the English article. Furthest would be to have the English header <nowiki>{{</nowiki>Help|noMultiLang=*}} in there, though I think that LL doesn't want to have that one either. I hope we won't have to deal with this situation for long and that the [[Help Portal]] is soon merged into KB articles. 
As of linking localized versions: I put together [[User:Zai Lynch/Sandbox/Temp|a list]] that's readable for a bot like [[User:Wiki Scribe|Wiki]], though I'm not able to fully deploy it, since it contains lots of LLO articles, which I'm not able to edit. I'll poke for some Linden help on this one, am meeting with Noelle on Wednesday and am hoping that the issue is resolved till the end of the week. I'd ask you to not create redirects until then, since it would then make it harder to do the linking in an automatted way. It's an ugly situation and I hoped that the KB wouldn't be announced on the blog until it's resolved... though well :-/ ... 
--[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 03:21, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
:Is there a way to do header linking like we currently do with articles that have a articlename/es, articlename/de, etc.... article in the general help header, like the german version of the article seems to have done? There has to be a better way to do this. [[User:Gordon_Wendt|''GW'']] ([[User talk:Gordon_Wendt|T]]|[[Special:Contributions/Gordon Wendt|C]]) -- 23:18, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
:::I'm not 100% sure if I understood it (please correct me when I'm wrong), but when you're talking about the language bar:
:::That started as a work-around for the problem that the English articles happened to be outside of the Wiki. Instead of using the established templates for interwiki linking, we had to create something that is
:::*includable in all translated versions of an article in order to represent the right links without the need of updating each translated page
:::*linking into the parature KB
:::additionally, it seemed benefitting to also use this for documentation purposes. So I made [[Template:Kbl10n]] and the related subpages. It allows to wrap information in different styles, like language bar, table or other more exotic styles, like I need them to configure the Wiki bot for link fixes. E.g., when you look at the code of [[User:Zai Lynch/Sandbox/Temp]], you'll notice that it only includes templates and that these are displaying the infos in the way I need them to create [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Pywikipediabot/pagefromfile.py such a file]. Same with [[CT_Project_Overview/1|this overview page]]. The language headers are the same template, just in another mode.
:::This approach was needed at the time it was made, but turned obsolete now. By now, we can use [[Template:Multi-lang]] and create redirects from <English name>/<ISO 639-1 code> to the localized page. Seems still more cumbersome than just adding links like <nowiki>[[de:German Name]]</nowiki> to the English page (etc), but offers other benefits that I wouldn't want to miss (like an update notification feature etc. ... "Just" need to properly document it and tell doc team how to use it).
:::To cut a long story short, [[Template:Multi-lang]] supports what we need to have localized articletitles while still having all benefits of a template over a stray link. If the Kbl10n templates will be replaced by multi-lang, or if they'll just wrap the info to then include multi-lang, is still to be decided by the localization team.
:::However, regardless of the way that's choosen, all English KB articles should point to their localized counterparts very soon. Like I said, I'm hoping to have it sorted till the end of the week. At least all localized pages are pointing to the Wiki version of the KB now (in the headers).
:::--[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 00:42, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
::Also, the German version of the article has a help header so that needs to be dealt with, I'll assume that this is an unwritten LL rule not just you asserting your preference as an unwritten rule, if there aren't going to be help headers on KB articles then it needs to be made into a written rule and it needs to be applied to all languages of an article either with the header or without, I think with is better in the long run even if that means a lot of work, checking and implementing this could be done automatically with a bot. [[User:Gordon_Wendt|''GW'']] ([[User talk:Gordon_Wendt|T]]|[[Special:Contributions/Gordon Wendt|C]]) -- 23:21, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
::::Oh it's not my preference to seperate KB and [[Help Portal]]. It's exactly the opposit. I'd love to have them as close together as posible, since I feel somehow connected to it's creation and would like to see it bloom. The reason why the localized KBs got these, is historical again. The localized KBs were (and are) imported piece by piece, rather than having a complete bulk to cover all topics of SL. Therefor it seemed reasonable to connect localized KBs with localized portals, to have a greater resource of topics covered. So we merged categories. In order to still be able to distinguish KB articles from HP articles, KB articles end with (KB) in the title. Well most do... there are only a few which don't, since we might step away from that again in order to provide easier linkability (closing bracket in the end is not parsed correctly in most cases) and in order to sync it with the English counterpart. However, the localized KBs are using the same categories as the localized Help Portals. The KB pages also got merged in the Help Header. The English KB however has it's own categories now and doesn't share any content with the HP. I should have specified it better when I wrote it: It ''seems to me'' that it's an unwritten policy ''by the documentation team'', to have the ''English'' KB articles not contain a Help header. However, we might back that up via the KB2Wiki mailing list. Though the localized KBs, which are under the hood of the ''localization team'', got these currently merged. If this will stay the way it is, is an open question, and I actually doubt that it will stay. I know Noelle wants to have KB categories translated and we're currently waiting for [[KB_Category_Reorganization|this issue]] beeing resolved before work starts on it. As you see, there is much flow at the moment, since the situation is just changing very fast with the KB2Wiki import. At the moment, the header should stay at the localized version, since it is also a KB header, not just a "Help Portal"-header anymore.
::::The Kbl10n template used in that article and providing the actual linking tho, is independant from the Help Header. --[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 00:42, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
:::[[Ich habe ein Ticket als Typ „Knowledge Base Suggestions" eingereicht, es handelt sich hierbei jedoch um ein Problem für Support. Warum leiten Sie mein Ticket nicht weiter?]] was the article I was thinking of btw, I took the liberty of removing the help header per your unwritten rule although that breaks any ability to find the English version of the article, rules are rules apparently, especially when I can catch you on the fact that they don't make any sense :) [[User:Gordon_Wendt|''GW'']] ([[User talk:Gordon_Wendt|T]]|[[Special:Contributions/Gordon Wendt|C]]) -- 00:04, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
::::Yes, I thought so and I hope it makes somehow sense by reading the above. :-)
::::Am putting the header back in place.
::::--[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 00:42, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
::::: Please keep me up to date on this if you can, if you guys figure out a better way to organize and link these articles it would be nice to know. [[User:Gordon_Wendt|''GW'']] ([[User talk:Gordon_Wendt|T]]|[[Special:Contributions/Gordon Wendt|C]]) -- 06:40, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
:::::: OK, will do :-) --[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 07:54, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
:::::::Short update: [[User:Simone Linden|Simone]] is going to give me a helping hand and we'll try to battle the beast, starting in about 4 hours, using a clone of [[Template:Multi-lang]]. I guess you'll see it soon. I'm now to tired for many words and will drop dead to bed for 240mins of sleep. nini :-)
:::::::--[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 03:37, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
:::::::: Thanks, it looks good, hopefully it will link up properly with both subpaged translations and translations with their own page (even the ridiculously long German ones), can most of the linking of various articles be done by bot (as your test page shows) or is going to take up a lot of hand work as well? I really hope you are sleeping more than 14400 seconds a night. [[User:Gordon_Wendt|''GW'']] ([[User talk:Gordon_Wendt|T]]|[[Special:Contributions/Gordon Wendt|C]]) -- 03:46, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
::::::::: I ''hope'' that it won't require any manual treatment, though beeing realistic: This import will have some flaws which we'll need to notice and correct in time. Though should go fine now, I hope. We'll have many bot runs as pages are also supposed to move from ''NAME_(KB)'' to ''NAME'', treated with protection, etc. Let's hope it works as good as possible after the 2.5 hours of link tweaking and double checking yesterday...
::::::::: Yeah, it happens that I'm occassionally sleeping longer. Not through this week though ^_^;
::::::::: --[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 07:35, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
:OK, all articles should be covered now... The English ones using language links via the sidebar, the localized ones still via the header. Will change that on Sunday so they all use the sidebar from now on.
:As expected, we spotted sporadic fails. Nothing major tho. "Just" articles that somehow fell through the cracks. I'm not sure if I cought all (actually I'm pretty sure that I didn't) and will check again on Sunday (hardly free time till then). When you spot something really weird meanwhile, please let me know.
:Greetz, --[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 12:39, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
:P.S.: And something in the flagged revs seems to occassionatly interfer... Maybe cause they are still lacking initial review for the template change. Not sure yet and will investigate later. --[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 12:48, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
::I thought you guys worked out most of the issues with flaggredrevs causing problems with templates on articles (sigh), I guess all we can do is grab them as we catch them and do useless reflagging and null editing to force updates, depending on the cause. [[User:Gordon_Wendt|''GW'']] ([[User talk:Gordon_Wendt|T]]|[[Special:Contributions/Gordon Wendt|C]]) -- 21:31, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
:::<strike>The problem seems to be only identified and a solution is suggested, but it's not yet solved. The solution would be, to be able to put templates under revision control as well. It's not possible at the moment, but I hope it will be soon...</strike> --[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 14:17, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
:::Seems to be something else. Template is reviewable... --[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 14:32, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
::::I really hope there's a better solution than flagging every template we need for review, that would be very burdensome I think. [[User:Gordon_Wendt|''GW'']] ([[User talk:Gordon_Wendt|T]]|[[Special:Contributions/Gordon Wendt|C]]) -- 23:09, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

User talk:Gordon Wendt

2009-10-24T21:31:43Z

Gordon Wendt: /* Linking localized versions */ reply

Template:Snowglobe-installers-trunk

2009-10-22T03:48:24Z

Gordon Wendt:

<noinclude><div class="navbox">Very brief (but frequently updated) blurb included on at least a couple of pages. Template for including in the [[Open Source Portal]] (actually [[Template:Open Source Portal/Featured]]) to make it so that there's download links for Windows, Mac, and Linux given a build number.

See [[Version numbering]] for explanation of numbering.

This template is for builds off of /projects/2009/snowglobe/trunk. Use [[Template:Snowglobe-installers|<nowiki>{{Snowglobe-installers}}</nowiki>]] when you want to insert a set of links for a released version of Snowglobe.

</div></noinclude>{{#if:

{{#vardefine:w |1 }}
{{#vardefine:x |2 }}
{{#vardefine:y |0 }}
{{#vardefine:z |2929 }}
{{#vardefine:branch|trunk }}
{{#vardefine:date |October 21, 2009 }}
{{#vardefine:year |2009 }}

}}{{Snowglobe-installers-trunk/{{{1|en}}}}} [http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/{{#var:year}}/{{#var:branch}}/{{#var:z}}/Snowglobe_{{#var:w}}-{{#var:x}}-{{#var:y}}-{{#var:z}}_Setup.exe Windows] [http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/{{#var:year}}/{{#var:branch}}/{{#var:z}}/Snowglobe_{{#var:w}}_{{#var:x}}_{{#var:y}}_{{#var:z}}_SNOWGLOBETESTBUILD.dmg Mac] [http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/{{#var:year}}/{{#var:branch}}/{{#var:z}}/Snowglobe-i686-{{#var:w}}.{{#var:x}}.{{#var:y}}.{{#var:z}}.tar.bz2 Linux] ''({{#var:w}}.{{#var:x}}.{{#var:y}}.{{#var:z}}, {{#var:date}})'' ([[Release Notes/Snowglobe Release/{{#var:w}}.{{#var:x}}|release notes]])

User talk:Gordon Wendt

2009-10-22T03:46:47Z

Gordon Wendt: /* Linking localized versions */ reply

User talk:Gordon Wendt

2009-10-21T06:43:54Z

Gordon Wendt: adding header to first post to properly categorize everything

User talk:Gordon Wendt

2009-10-21T06:40:59Z

Gordon Wendt: reply

User talk:Gordon Wendt

2009-10-21T00:04:33Z

Gordon Wendt: /* Linking localized versions */ another comment

Talk:Downloads

2009-10-20T23:25:42Z

Gordon Wendt: /* Future of this page */ new section

== Hybrid and Homebrew? ==
What exactly does hybrid and homebrew mean? Where is the difference to 'third party'? 'Homewbrew' even sounds a bit declassifying. Is the further extension of 'thrid party' really needed?
--[[User:Peter Stindberg|Peter Stindberg]] (July 8)
:No responses? Then I am going to take those declassifying words out. --[[User:Peter Stindberg|Peter Stindberg]] (August 25)

== Merging in [[Alternate viewers]] page ==

Merging the alternate viewers page into this neatly is next on my todo list however doing so neatly is going to be tricky along with the issue of keeping anything up to date. [[User:Gordon_Wendt|''GW'']] ([[User talk:Gordon_Wendt|T]]|[[Special:Contributions/Gordon Wendt|C]]) -- 01:32, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
:Merged the content in and the page should be useable but I still want to seperate graphical from text viewers and all the content needs to be updated since much of it is way out of date. Also for each viewer there needs to be a line saying when the info on this page for that viewer was last checked and updated. [[User:Gordon_Wendt|''GW'']] ([[User talk:Gordon_Wendt|T]]|[[Special:Contributions/Gordon Wendt|C]]) -- 19:35, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

== Merging in [[Talk:Alternate viewers]] page ==
And on a side note.. I am not sure it was a good idea to merge the alternate viewers page with the Official SL downloads page, I think there is value in having them seperate.

--[[User:Ron Grantham|Ron Grantham]] 05:24, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
[
Metabolt
Credit to SLeek should be given, as Metabolt heavily uses existing SLeek code. Also SLeek should gte mentioned in the article.

Downloads
The content of this article should probably be migrated to Downloads.

--SignpostMarv Martin 00:16, 18 December 2007 (PST)

It's been a year and a half but it's on my list of things to do, as soon as I get a chance and can figure out how to do it neatly I'll merge this page's contents in and redirect. GW (T|C) -- 01:33, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
IM
Not sure if this is the right place, but with Metabolt being mentioned, are the other clients like SLitechat worth mentioning? http://slitechat.dooglio.net/

I'd say: go for it! (please respect alphabetical order). oobscure 10:55, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

::Got the merge done the other day and people are updating the listings which is nice but a lot of them are still out of date and if it can be done without causing too much confusion I think that active and inactive projects should be seperated although the existence of viewers classified as "semi-active" complicates that. [[User:Gordon_Wendt|''GW'']] ([[User talk:Gordon_Wendt|T]]|[[Special:Contributions/Gordon Wendt|C]]) -- 06:01, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

== Imprudence Viewer ==

The first section under the Imprudence viewer (Usability, Stability, Flexibility) has nothing to do with the Imprudence viewer but rather is a rant against Linden Labs. It is inappropriate for a wiki and, frankly, is counterproductive for the proponents of Imprudence.[[User:Jos Ling|Jos Ling]] 13:41, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
:I agree with the "rant again LL". However if you see that page as a place where the alternative viewer developers can present their project and their mission statement, it definitely has its place. I can't judge if it is counterproductive - it might even appeal to some. However I think the only judges of the statement are the readers, and therefore it is up to the Imprudence developers of how they want to present themselves. I will change the headline to "Motivation" and give the developers a head's up to rethink the passage. Thank you for bringing this up. --[[User:Peter Stindberg|Peter Stindberg]] 13:57, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
::[[Editing_Guidelines#Point_of_View]] '''Quote:''' "A neutral point of view should be adopted, with the caveat that this wiki is for people helping build Second Life, not for complaints about Second Life or Linden Lab." - the removed text reads as follows:

::"The Second Life Viewer suffers from a stifling atmosphere of non-change. This atmosphere emanates from Linden Lab, whose attitudes and policies discourage all but the smallest and most superficial improvements. This is the result of the nature of Linden Lab as a corporation, thus rendering Linden Lab ineffectual at dealing with the fundamental usability problems that plague the Viewer." - to me that was clearly a complaint about Linden Lab, and therefore not meeting the guidelines.

::My personal opinion is given the size of the development team and the fact that they have two projects to keep in sync (server and client) the pace of change is reasonable. I may disagree with the priority in which they make updates, but that is not a reason to bash them on the "nature of Linden Lab as a corporation". In any case that is incorrect, the company name is "Linden Research". [[User:DanielRavenNest Noe|DanielRavenNest Noe]] 16:41, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

:::The paragraph in question is derived from excerpts from our larger [http://imprudenceviewer.org/wiki/Manifesto manifesto], but for some reason was not marked as such. Anyway, I agree that the paragraph is not appropriate for this wiki, so I have no objection to its removal. [[User:Jacek Antonelli|Jacek Antonelli]] 20:32, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

== Future of this page ==

So.... is this page just going to be run as usual until LL gets the viewer registry up and running as noted at [https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/community/blog/2009/10/20/third-party-viewer-policy https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/community/blog/2009/10/20/third-party-viewer-policy]? It seems like once that is done (which admittedly could be awhile) there's not going to be much of a purpose to this page since there will be another spot for officially sanctioned viewers and I doubt LL will want a list of non sanctioned viewers on the wiki. [[User:Gordon_Wendt|''GW'']] ([[User talk:Gordon_Wendt|T]]|[[Special:Contributions/Gordon Wendt|C]]) -- 23:25, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

User:Zai Lynch/Talkpage Archive 04

2009-10-20T23:23:01Z

Gordon Wendt: /* replied */ new section

{{:User:Zai Lynch/TalkpageNav}}

== Standby for final KB2Wiki import ==
As always, you were fast fixing the templates! Thanks and I'm sorry this happened but we're not done with the import. We're trying it a few times as we revise the process, fixing bugs we found in earlier imports (like too much blank space and hyperlinks not working). So please ''DON'T'' do any much-needed automation or other tweakage because I don't want your work to be wiped. I'll send email when we're done. And I'll also update the [[Knowledge Base]] page with the current status. '''- [[Image:Torley-favicon.png]] [[User:Torley Linden|Torley]] on 2009-10-05 @ 6:54 PM PST'''
:Oh... OK o.O thx for the heads-up! :-) --[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 02:10, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

: I'm wonder why LL has an internal wiki mirror... when they doesn't use it for fixing bugs test the imports etc. --[[User:Kuraiko Yoshikawa|Kuraiko Yoshikawa]] 02:08, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

== Splendid adding o' [[Template:Seal]] ==
That was so fast! And lusciously automated! Thank Zai! '''- [[Image:Torley-favicon.png]] [[User:Torley Linden|Torley]] on 2009-08-11 @ 1:57 PM PST'''
:Very welcome :-) [[User:Wiki Scribe|Wiki]] was a big help on this :p
:Thanks for allowing her to be a bot!
:I'm almost scared to ask, since I don't know how to interpret the post-survey silence though... Are there news on the future of the KB2Wiki project?
:CU tomorrow at the OH.
:Cheers, [[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 21:14, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

::Nvm, I think you just gave an answer to that query :p
::--[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 18:51, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

== Do you still want Wiki Scribe added to bots usergroup? ==
I noticed you used Wiki Scribe to make some automated changes — how would adding Wiki Scribe to the bots usergroup additionally benefit what you want to do? '''- [[Image:Torley-favicon.png]] [[User:Torley Linden|Torley]] on 2009-07-15 @ 9:37 AM PST'''
:Heyas!
:Yes, I'd like to =). Having her added to the group would
:# not throw the annoying warning message in my terminal all the time. (''"WARNING: Your account on slwiki:en does not have a bot flag. Its edits will be visible in the recent changes and it may get blocked."'')
:# provide a higher API limit (it can do more checks and commits within a given timeframe, so I don't have to let it wait ~30 seconds between edits and checks for each page).
:# hide edits in the [[Special:RecentChanges]] by default.
:I can ignore 1, but specificly 2 and 3 are interesting for me. At the top of the recent changes page is this bar with "Hide minor edits | '''Show bots''' | Hide anonymous users | Hide logged-in users | Hide patrolled edits | Hide my edits" Using the bot will spam the recent changes, since I'll try to let it run with only one task at a time instead of multiple ones. That will lead to more edits on the downside but it will be easier for me to check that it's only doing what it's supposed to do (easier to filter false positives of the regular expressions). Users can then decide if they'd like to see the recent changes with or without my spam. Distinguish human edits from automatted edits.
:--[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 17:56, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
:: It's done. '''- [[Image:Torley-favicon.png]] [[User:Torley Linden|Torley]] on 2009-07-16 @ 8:48 AM PST'''
:::I have to admit, I don't know much about wikibots. Can we also use this bot to perform certain repetitive tasks? Or perhaps get a copy of it? I'm thinking of things like multi-article search & replace, consolidating categories, and the like. Would it make sense for Zai to brief us on what Wiki Scribe can do and how we might be able to use it as well? --[[User:Rand Linden|Rand Linden]] 17:07, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
::::There is a wiki for bots: [http://botwiki.sno.cc/wiki/Main_Page Botwiki]. I guess it allows you to have a glimpse of bot capabilities :) --[[User:Torben Trautman|Torben Trautman]] 18:49, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

{| style="border: 1px solid {{{border|gray}}}; background-color: {{{color|#fdffe7}}};"
|rowspan="2" valign="middle" | [[Image:Vitruvian Barnstar.png|75px]]
|rowspan="2" |
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The da Vinci Barnstar'''
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | Unfortunately we don´t have a barnstars template but if we did, I would award you with The da Vinci barnstar for enhancing the wiki through your technical work and impressing some Lindens :) --[[User:Torben Trautman|Torben Trautman]] 18:49, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
|}

:::::Yay, thankies!!! :-) For bot account and barnstar and all =)
:::::I got a nice task in mind for link fixes within the [[CT Projects]], which I'll try to implement next week.
:::::@Documentation: I already tried to provide one at [[User:Zai Lynch/Bot setup]]. There are lots of other bots available as well, though for now, I'll stick with the [http://pywikipediabot.sourceforge.net/ Python Wikipedia Bot]. Configuration files are documented at my linked page and will expand when I got more custom fixes. And yes, this bot seems to be '''specifically''' useful for repetetive tasks as you mention them (search and replace with regular expressions). I'm really excited :-)
:::::Greetz, [[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 22:47, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

== Vimeo widget problems ==

Zai, Thanks for fixing the videos in the KB articles.

I just put a little navigation template in some of the articles, but it seems to break the vimeo widget and I can't imagine why. See [[Why do textures sometimes look messed up? - Video Tutorial]] for an example.

I'd like to create some more navigation boxes to group related articles and make navigation easier. But this is a real problem.

Any ideas?

--[[User:Rand Linden|Rand Linden]] 19:28, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

:Heyas!
:It's not your template interferring but appearently a problem with the widgets extension. I faced the same problem with the Blip.tv one. Every time I make an edit to such a page, I need to perform a null edit after saving, in order to clear the cache. Otherwise, the widget isn't kicking in correctly...
:You can make null edits by editing and saving without making a change, or adding ''?action=purge'' at the end of the link.
:It's a little annoying... So when you know the work around, it's not hurting to much.
:Greetz :-)
:--[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 19:32, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

::Great, thanks for the tip. Very strange, and a bit annoying, but at least there's a workaround. Thanks again!

::--[[User:Rand Linden|Rand Linden]] 22:37, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

== CT-405 ==

Hi Zai,
I have a question or two about "das Polygonnetz des Avatars".

*I have no idea how but do you think it´s possible to simplify this even more? Even with it being inaccurate, maybe we could call it something like "Oberfläche" and if needed add "(ein Polygonnetz)" with the link to wikipedia?

*Just for my understanding: Is it all baked into one texture (like skin and clothes)?
--[[User:Torben Trautman|Torben Trautman]] 21:18, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

:Hey Torben! :-)
:@1: Yeah, "Polygonnetz" sounds a lil bumpy and maybe even frightening for non-techie's... I think we can go with the suggested "Oberfläche" in case we provide the right technical term together with the link.
:@2: Yes, skin and all layers of clothing are baked into the same texture so that every avatar just got 3 of them (face, upper and lower body). (Well and the standart hair...) That is the reason why you're becoming all blurry although you just change one single piece of clothing. Cause it's a whole new texture. It's then distributed to other clients which is also the reason for some strange phenomena that occurs when a graphics card driver bitches and messes up the texture during the baking process. People often say "it can't be my driver, since my friend is seeing me too this way!". Though they got to, since they're receiving the distorted texture from them...
:Greetz, [[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 22:44, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
:Oh btw: Did you save the chatlog from Simone's OH? Could you publish it? I had a con lost, restarted and thought: '''d'oh!'''
:Didn't have logging of open chat enabled either... --[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 22:53, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I believe it doesn´t look too bad with "Oberfläche" :)
I added the transcript, for some obscure reason I had it saved hehe
*waves* --[[User:Torben Trautman|Torben Trautman]] 11:37, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

:Great, thx!! :-) --[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 11:51, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

== Double checking on WEB-1194 ==

Hi Zai - just wanted to check in with you on {{jira|WEB-1194}}, as well as just want to use this as an excuse to edit a heavily edited page as a test of my own. -- [[User:Rob Linden|Rob Linden]] 23:50, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

:Seems to be fixed, thx! :-) --[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 23:56, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

== Oh hi there ==
Zai officially rocks the wiki. That is all. --[[User:Soft Linden|Soft Linden]] 00:25, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
:Awww, thankies! (^_^); --[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 00:28, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

== Who? ==

Who do I have to talk to get the Release Notes unlocked? Sure it seems like a good idea "Lets lock the release notes so nobody can defile them" but it also means I can't turn bits of the text into links; making them actually useful instead of dead end dendrites yearning for axons. You're running a marathon, editing pages left and right and all of a sudden you trip over someones good intentions and you have to find some other page to edit. I wouldn't even mind if they were reviewable instead of locked. Sorry for venting on you. -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 04:37, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

:Heyas Strife! :-)
:Hm... I'm not sure if I understand. You poked Dante on it for [[Release Notes/Second Life Server/1.27|Server 1.27]] and he [[User_talk:Dante_Linden|replied]] and unprotected the page some time ago. I had a look at [[Special:ProtectedPages]] and the only protected release notes I could find were [[Release Notes Viewer 1.17.2.122|Viewer 1.17.2.122]] (a test page) and [[Release Notes/Second Life Release Candidate/1.21|RC 1.21]]. Is that the one you're concerned about? Then Ramzi might be the one to ask.
:I'm not the one you need to convince about protection status, since I'm all on your side for that. I personally think that protection of pages is in very most cases causing more harm than good. I also might add that I'm quite unhappy with the lockdown of the [[adult content]] article. The reason why I didn't bitch about that yet is, that I'm not sure if I can find the right words to make it better instead of worse.
:--[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 10:37, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

::Yeah it was the RC page that I tripped over. I wonder what the change was I wanted to make to 1.27... I'll give Ramzi a poke.
::I can't help you with better words, wish I could. There are a bunch of other articles that shouldn't have been locked imo but I've never commented. Reminds me of my comment on [[Talk:Open_Grid_Public_Beta/Open_Grid_Beta_Viewers]].
::-- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 01:09, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

:::[[User talk:Yoz Linden#Protection of Adult content article|I gave it a try]], let's see what it brings.
:::Hehe, yeah I found that remark on the Gridnauts hilarious ^_^. I can remember that I considered to just add a "''lol''" when I read it, though I was afraid that people would think of me as an even bigger spammer than I already am ^_^
:::--[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 01:46, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

== Hi Zai. Can you help me out? ==

I tried to add myself to [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:LSL_Mentors the lsl mentor list] but I think I must have got it wrong. If it wasn't such a sensitive area to edit (being a template and having implications by result that could mean I end up calling myself a Linden by accident) I would give it another go, but I don't want to make a mess. Can you explain where I went wrong please? p.s. Hope your feeling better. -- '''[[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]]''' ([[User talk:EddyFragment_Robonaught|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/EddyFragment_Robonaught|contribs]]) 07:11, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

I seem to have got it right this time. Can you fix it if I did it wrong? (I know you or Strife prolly would anyway but it's polite to ask) Thanx Zai -- '''[[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]]''' ([[User talk:EddyFragment_Robonaught|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/EddyFragment_Robonaught|contribs]]) 07:40, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

:Ah yes, you fixed it :-) While this one is ok too, <nowiki>{{visl|LSL=*}}</nowiki> would have been enough code to add you. I'm just realizing that the LSL parameter isn't noted in the [[Template:Visl|documentation]], so I'm going to add it.
:--[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 10:33, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

I tried a little template but I must have got it wrong. I'll look at the differences in what I did , didn't and should've done and learn from it. Thanx Zai. -- '''[[User:EddyFragment Robonaught|Eddy]]''' ([[User talk:EddyFragment_Robonaught|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/EddyFragment_Robonaught|contribs]]) 10:35, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

:Welcome :-) You might add <nowiki>{{ISO 639-3/cat-speaking|eng}}</nowiki> to add yourself to [[:Category:English speaking Residents]] as well, if you like.
:--[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 13:04, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

== Internationalization: Categories & Templates ==

Thanks for fixing the inclusion of the Help template in [[Lag/it]]. I'm going to educate myself better about the Internationalization guidelines and will join the program if necessary. Any idea about what should I do with regard to categories in [[Sculpted_Prim/it]]? --[[User:Opensource Obscure|oobscure]] 12:47, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

:Welcome! :-)
:I would suggest to create new categories for these, using italian names. Put <nowiki>{{Help/it|Parent=ENGLISH-CAT-NAME}} on top</nowiki>. Then create redirects from the English category with ISO 639-1 suffix.
:Like e.g. the Japenese [[:Category:Sculpted Prims/ja]] redirects to [[:Category:スカルプテッドプリム]]. It's just a pain to remember the right translations for the category names sometimes :-/ That's why I like the templated solutions like in [[Template:Help/it]] et al. Though guess having a template for every category would be overkill...
:--[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 13:04, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

== llVecNorm ==

[https://wiki.secondlife.com/w/index.php?title=LlVecNorm&diff=454402&oldid=369882 hm... wonder why this didn't throw an error here...]
:Wonder no more, capitalizing the 'r' in 'return_text' changes the wording. If you use 'return_text' you get "Returns a(n) (type)..." but if you use 'Return_text' you get "Returns the (type)...". Checkout [[llGetKey]] for an example of this. I've considered adding a modifier that gets inserted before the type, something like "Returns (the|a) (insert) a(n) (type)" so you could construct sentences like "Returns the handle in the form of an integer used to disable and remove the listen", but I was very fond of the style of having the return type always being the third word in the sentence. "Return_text" gave you problems because the German template hadn't been updated to support it (or the other new features I suspect). -- '''[[User:Strife_Onizuka|Strife]]''' ([[User talk:Strife_Onizuka|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Strife_Onizuka|contribs]]) 02:22, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

::Oh I see! I think we skipped the grammar part completly since we weren't able to mimic such a strict structure for the German localization. That isn't meant to imply that it wouldn't be possible, maybe we just didn't spent enough time on thinking about it. I'll have a look later if I can identify other updates in the function code that haven't been added to the German template yet. I think I tried to keep it in sync, though I've been letting things slide with the LSL articles and templates for the past year or so...
::I set it back to previous revision since the normalized vector should be unique. Thanks for the explanation :-)
::--[[File:Zai_signature.png|45px|link=User:Zai Lynch]] ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 10:20, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

== replied ==

I never assume someone is following my page for replies, I replied to your comments at [[User_talk:Gordon_Wendt#Linking_localized_versions]] [[User:Gordon_Wendt|''GW'']] ([[User talk:Gordon_Wendt|T]]|[[Special:Contributions/Gordon Wendt|C]]) -- 23:23, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

User talk:Gordon Wendt

2009-10-20T23:21:53Z

Gordon Wendt: /* Linking localized versions */ second part of reply

User talk:Gordon Wendt

2009-10-20T23:18:32Z

Gordon Wendt: /* Linking localized versions */ reply

Template:Snowglobe-installers-trunk

2009-10-09T07:42:09Z

Gordon Wendt: build 2871

<noinclude>Very brief (but frequently updated) blurb included on at least a couple of pages. Template for including in the [[Open Source Portal]] (actually [[Template:Open Source Portal/Featured]]) to make it so that there's download links for Windows, Mac, and Linux given a build number.

See [[Version numbering]] for explanation of numbering.

This template is for builds off of /projects/2009/snowglobe/trunk. Use [[Template:Snowglobe-installers|<nowiki>{{Snowglobe-installers}}</nowiki>]] when you want to insert a set of links for a released version of Snowglobe.

</noinclude>{{#vardefine:w|1}}{{#vardefine:x|2}}{{#vardefine:y|0}}{{#vardefine:z|2871}}{{#vardefine:branch|trunk}}{{Snowglobe-installers-trunk/{{{1|en}}}}} [http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/2009/{{#var:branch}}/{{#var:z}}/Snowglobe_{{#var:w}}-{{#var:x}}-{{#var:y}}-{{#var:z}}_Setup.exe Windows] [http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/2009/{{#var:branch}}/{{#var:z}}/Snowglobe_{{#var:w}}_{{#var:x}}_{{#var:y}}_{{#var:z}}_SNOWGLOBETESTBUILD.dmg Mac] [http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/2009/{{#var:branch}}/{{#var:z}}/Snowglobe-i686-{{#var:w}}.{{#var:x}}.{{#var:y}}.{{#var:z}}.tar.bz2 Linux] ''({{#var:w}}.{{#var:x}}.{{#var:y}}.{{#var:z}}, October 8, 2009)'' ([[Release Notes/Snowglobe Release/1.2|release notes]])

Template:Snowglobe-installers-trunk

2009-10-03T03:48:34Z

Gordon Wendt: updating -- build 2837 -- October 2

<noinclude>Very brief (but frequently updated) blurb included on at least a couple of pages. Template for including in the [[Open Source Portal]] (actually [[Template:Open Source Portal/Featured]]) to make it so that there's download links for Windows, Mac, and Linux given a build number.

See [[Version numbering]] for explanation of numbering.

This template is for builds off of /projects/2009/snowglobe/trunk. Use [[Template:Snowglobe-installers|<nowiki>{{Snowglobe-installers}}</nowiki>]] when you want to insert a set of links for a released version of Snowglobe.

</noinclude>{{#vardefine:w|1}}{{#vardefine:x|2}}{{#vardefine:y|0}}{{#vardefine:z|2837}}{{#vardefine:branch|trunk}}{{Snowglobe-installers-trunk/{{{1|en}}}}} [http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/2009/{{#var:branch}}/{{#var:z}}/Snowglobe_{{#var:w}}-{{#var:x}}-{{#var:y}}-{{#var:z}}_Setup.exe Windows] [http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/2009/{{#var:branch}}/{{#var:z}}/Snowglobe_{{#var:w}}_{{#var:x}}_{{#var:y}}_{{#var:z}}_SNOWGLOBETESTBUILD.dmg Mac] [http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/2009/{{#var:branch}}/{{#var:z}}/Snowglobe-i686-{{#var:w}}.{{#var:x}}.{{#var:y}}.{{#var:z}}.tar.bz2 Linux] ''({{#var:w}}.{{#var:x}}.{{#var:y}}.{{#var:z}}, October 2, 2009)'' ([[Release Notes/Snowglobe Release/1.2|release notes]])

Template:Snowglobe-installers-trunk

2009-09-24T04:52:59Z

Gordon Wendt: updating version to 2785 and date

<noinclude>Very brief (but frequently updated) blurb included on at least a couple of pages. Template for including in the [[Open Source Portal]] (actually [[Template:Open Source Portal/Featured]]) to make it so that there's download links for Windows, Mac, and Linux given a build number.

See [[Version numbering]] for explanation of numbering.

This template is for builds off of /projects/2009/snowglobe/trunk. Use [[Template:Snowglobe-installers|<nowiki>{{Snowglobe-installers}}</nowiki>]] when you want to insert a set of links for a released version of Snowglobe.

</noinclude>{{#vardefine:w|1}}{{#vardefine:x|2}}{{#vardefine:y|0}}{{#vardefine:z|2785}}{{#vardefine:branch|trunk}}{{Snowglobe-installers-trunk/{{{1|en}}}}} [http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/2009/{{#var:branch}}/{{#var:z}}/Snowglobe_{{#var:w}}-{{#var:x}}-{{#var:y}}-{{#var:z}}_Setup.exe Windows] [http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/2009/{{#var:branch}}/{{#var:z}}/Snowglobe_{{#var:w}}_{{#var:x}}_{{#var:y}}_{{#var:z}}_SNOWGLOBETESTBUILD.dmg Mac] [http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/2009/{{#var:branch}}/{{#var:z}}/Snowglobe-i686-{{#var:w}}.{{#var:x}}.{{#var:y}}.{{#var:z}}.tar.bz2 Linux] ''({{#var:w}}.{{#var:x}}.{{#var:y}}.{{#var:z}}, September 24, 2009)'' ([[Release Notes/Snowglobe Release/1.2|release notes]])

User talk:Blondin Linden

2009-09-17T03:14:53Z

Gordon Wendt: /* September 16 Communication Tools Office Hour Transcript */ converting link in my comment to an internal link

== Placeholder / Back ==
Hi Blondin! 
I saw you created multiple placeholder pages for the [[Current Business And Marketing Resources]] article. These all contain a link named "Back", which links to named article. I'm not sure if it is a good idea to call it that way, since a user will assume s/he's getting ''back'' to the page s/he was before, which isn't neccessarily the case, when the page was linked at another page than the [[Current Business And Marketing Resources]] article too. In case you'd like to stay with the "Back" scheme, I'd consider something like "[[Current Business And Marketing Resources|Back to Current Business And Marketing Resources]]" instead, which contains more information for the user. 
Another suggestion would be a category for these pages. Like [[:Category:Current Business And Marketing Resources]]. 
Last suggestion for upcoming similar projects: The creation of placeholder pages might lead into confusion. When a link in the Wiki is shown in red, anyone (who is familiar with Wikis) recognizes that there is no page "behind" that link and therefor avoids clicking it. While, in case a link is blue, people become snoopy and look, just to see a "this page is not ready yet" text. Both (red link and describing text) carry the same information, but the red link is more obviouse for the user and easier to filter. They don't have to click, wait for the page to load, read, get back, repeat... That way, it's also easier for you (the contributor/creator) to keep track which pages are already done and which still need to be created. 
I hope some of this was useful for you and am looking forward to the upcoming additions to the Wiki =) 
Greetz, [[Image:Zai_signature.png|45px]] '''[[User:Zai Lynch|Lynch]]''' ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 09:00, 20 August 2008 (PDT)

==Easy Sync==
Heyas Blondin! 
It looked like [[Education Related Articles]] and the ''Education Related Articles'' section in [[Education]] were supposed to be the same? If so, I added an inclusion of the first page into the second, so you'll just need to update the list on the first page and it will automatically be updated in the second page to. In case they were '''not''' meant to be the same, please revert my edits. =) 
Greetz, [[Image:Zai_signature.png|45px]] '''[[User:Zai Lynch|Lynch]]''' ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 16:14, 22 October 2008 (PDT)
:Hm... just looked at the last edits of yours and it seems there are more pages thought to be like this?
:I'm not quite understanding why there are these duplicates hosted but in case you'd like to sync them, you can use the same markup. E.g. add <nowiki>{{:Government Related Articles}}</nowiki> at the [[Government]] page, etc.
:[[Image:Zai_signature.png|45px]] '''[[User:Zai Lynch|Lynch]]''' ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 16:22, 22 October 2008 (PDT)

== September 16 Communication Tools Office Hour Transcript ==

Blondin, sent you an IM but here it is again just in case, it is up and formatted at [[User:Blondin_Linden/Commtools_16SEP09]]. [[User:Gordon_Wendt|''GW'']] ([[User talk:Gordon_Wendt|T]]|[[Special:Contributions/Gordon Wendt|C]]) -- 03:13, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

User talk:Blondin Linden

2009-09-17T03:13:19Z

Gordon Wendt: /* September 16 Communication Tools Office Hour Transcript */ new section

== Placeholder / Back ==
Hi Blondin! 
I saw you created multiple placeholder pages for the [[Current Business And Marketing Resources]] article. These all contain a link named "Back", which links to named article. I'm not sure if it is a good idea to call it that way, since a user will assume s/he's getting ''back'' to the page s/he was before, which isn't neccessarily the case, when the page was linked at another page than the [[Current Business And Marketing Resources]] article too. In case you'd like to stay with the "Back" scheme, I'd consider something like "[[Current Business And Marketing Resources|Back to Current Business And Marketing Resources]]" instead, which contains more information for the user. 
Another suggestion would be a category for these pages. Like [[:Category:Current Business And Marketing Resources]]. 
Last suggestion for upcoming similar projects: The creation of placeholder pages might lead into confusion. When a link in the Wiki is shown in red, anyone (who is familiar with Wikis) recognizes that there is no page "behind" that link and therefor avoids clicking it. While, in case a link is blue, people become snoopy and look, just to see a "this page is not ready yet" text. Both (red link and describing text) carry the same information, but the red link is more obviouse for the user and easier to filter. They don't have to click, wait for the page to load, read, get back, repeat... That way, it's also easier for you (the contributor/creator) to keep track which pages are already done and which still need to be created. 
I hope some of this was useful for you and am looking forward to the upcoming additions to the Wiki =) 
Greetz, [[Image:Zai_signature.png|45px]] '''[[User:Zai Lynch|Lynch]]''' ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 09:00, 20 August 2008 (PDT)

==Easy Sync==
Heyas Blondin! 
It looked like [[Education Related Articles]] and the ''Education Related Articles'' section in [[Education]] were supposed to be the same? If so, I added an inclusion of the first page into the second, so you'll just need to update the list on the first page and it will automatically be updated in the second page to. In case they were '''not''' meant to be the same, please revert my edits. =) 
Greetz, [[Image:Zai_signature.png|45px]] '''[[User:Zai Lynch|Lynch]]''' ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 16:14, 22 October 2008 (PDT)
:Hm... just looked at the last edits of yours and it seems there are more pages thought to be like this?
:I'm not quite understanding why there are these duplicates hosted but in case you'd like to sync them, you can use the same markup. E.g. add <nowiki>{{:Government Related Articles}}</nowiki> at the [[Government]] page, etc.
:[[Image:Zai_signature.png|45px]] '''[[User:Zai Lynch|Lynch]]''' ([[User talk:Zai Lynch|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Zai Lynch|contribs]]) 16:22, 22 October 2008 (PDT)

== September 16 Communication Tools Office Hour Transcript ==

Blondin, sent you an IM but here it is again just in case, it is up and formatted at https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Blondin_Linden/Commtools_16SEP09. [[User:Gordon_Wendt|''GW'']] ([[User talk:Gordon_Wendt|T]]|[[Special:Contributions/Gordon Wendt|C]]) -- 03:13, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

User:Blondin Linden/Commtools 16SEP09

2009-09-17T03:02:18Z

Gordon Wendt: some more formatting changes to linking to fix my name which somehow turned into Gordon Went and to fixed double marking on the user template

Office Hours Meeting Notes 16-Sep-2009

Topic: Communication Tools

Participants (21):
* {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}
* {{User|Blondin Linden}}
* {{User|Bluegin Yifu}}
* {{User|Ciaran Laval}}
* {{User|Daniel Voyager}}
* {{User|Ella Mcmahon}}
* {{User|Gordon Wendt}}
* {{User|Joao Miastroianni}}
* {{User|Kris Darmoset}}
* {{User|Lexie Linden}}
* {{User|Lowri Mills}}
* {{User|Ludo Merit}}
* {{User|Marianne Mccann}}
* {{User|Mso Lambert}}
* {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}
* {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}
* {{User|Sitearm Madonna}}
* {{User|Surfaqua Oh}}
* {{User|Taka Linden}}
* {{User|Torben Trautman}}
* {{User|Yann Dufaux}}

[10:03] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: Well, I suppose we can begin. Thanks all for coming! This meeting was a result of some of the feedback we got from the Avaline blog post

[10:03] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: :P Gordon

[10:04] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: was the feedback that most users wanted nothing to do with it and that LL was wasting their time?

[10:04] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: I don't know if you all had a chance to read it, but Taka here was interested in engaging outside of the comments and getting a wider view of how we can better improve commnication tools in SL.

[10:04] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: Something along those lines Gordon :)

[10:05] {{User|Taka Linden}}: Yes. How many of you are using AvaLine now?

[10:05] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: I think most users want groups to work, IM's to work, and for commiunication via notecard not to be the only reliable option

[10:05] {{User|Taka Linden}}: or Skype?

[10:05] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: or SLVoice? nobody uses that either

[10:05] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: groups being group IM's in this context

[10:05] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: I didn't extend my Avaline usage beyond the beta test

[10:05] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: we use SL Voice

[10:05] {{User|Ludo Merit}}: Using Skype, and SL voice. I sing a capella in it

[10:06] {{User|Daniel Voyager}}: I use Skype mostly.

[10:06] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: I think a lot of the feedback we got was that Skype was the prefered method of communication

[10:06] {{User|Bluegin Yifu}}: I do not know what the Avaline blog is; so I guess that's the first thing I have to say about communications. hehe

[10:06] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: we are finding firewalls in the middle east and some Chinese ISPs that block it

[10:06] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: I'll find the link Blue Gin

[10:06] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: Avaline might be useful for some very big companies but it falls flat for the average user

[10:06] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: I beta tested Avaline.

[10:06] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: even if some people do use it, because so many people used/use skype it seems like there was a lot of
duplicated effort that only achieved splitting the community into using two incompatible systems

[10:06] {{User|Daniel Voyager}}: Twitter and Plurk seems to be getting popular these days. :p

[10:07] {{User|Daniel Voyager}}: with SL

[10:07] {{User|Lexie Linden}}: good point Daniel

[10:07] {{User|Taka Linden}}: Do people use Twitter and Plurk for the same kind of messaging as Group Chat?

[10:07] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: Do you guys have an Avaline number for support calls?

[10:07] {{User|Taka Linden}}: they seem like quite different tools to me

[10:08] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/features/blog/2009/08/19/bye-bye-beta-avaline-dial-an-avatar-is-now-
available-to-all-avatars

[10:08] SunnyBoy Arashi: i do not have , don't know so much about it

[10:08] {{User|Taka Linden}}: As for AvaLine as a way to reach support, it is not currently an option.

[10:08] {{User|Ludo Merit}}: It would never have occurred to me to use twitter for chat

[10:08] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: Twitter and Plurk can virus a message much faster

[10:08] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: having to watch both twitter and plurk is a pain

[10:08] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Agreed, Poid

[10:08] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: Why is faster better?

[10:08] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: Ah thanks Taka, I think that would be a good way of showcasing Avaline if you did offer that as an option.

[10:08] {{User|Taka Linden}}: Good idea.

[10:08] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: Gordon so get a tool to view all at once - ire friend feed

[10:08] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: I use Plurk. I find it a great tool to pass links and news about whats going on

[10:09] {{User|Ludo Merit}}: I won't use anything I have to pay more for, such as Avaline

[10:09] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: I like the Karma :)

[10:09] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: there are some abrogators Gordon for that?

[10:09] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: Taka, of course not, that would be proof that LL has confidence in avaline as a platform and you can't have
that :)

[10:09] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: Notices sent to e-mail give us an easy record to refer back to -- if they just worked.

[10:09] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: *that

[10:09] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: yeah avaline is a needless expense imho

[10:09] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: second what Rihanna just said

[10:09] {{User|Taka Linden}}: Actually, the support team has a very specific set of needs, and AvaLine was not designed to serve those "use
cases"

[10:10] {{User|Taka Linden}}: though it definitely could be helpful in some circumstances

[10:10] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: Avaline is useful for ambitious business within SL, you can offer worldwide phone access

[10:10] Petra Linden is Online

[10:10] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: what was it's parameters specifically then Taka?

[10:10] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: I've yet to find a good use of AvaLine with my clients, at least not any that Skype isn't already handling

[10:10] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: As I said before though, I think there is a pretty strong consensus among users that they don't want new
communications tools, they want the existing tools to do what they're advertised to do and supposed to do

[10:11] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: *nods

[10:11] {{User|Bluegin Yifu}}: agree

[10:11] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: yes

[10:11] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: ?me nods vigorously.

[10:11] {{User|Ludo Merit}} nods too

[10:11] {{User|Taka Linden}}: This first edition of AvaLine is intended simply to allow someone inworld to stay in touch with people who
are not online

[10:11] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: Can I assume that there is an internal team at LL that handles comm. tools?

[10:11] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: I don't mind new tools if they offer better functionality than the current tools, group chat and notices is
rather clunky

[10:11] {{User|Lexie Linden}}: Hi Yann and Surf

[10:11] {{User|Surfaqua Oh}}: hello

[10:12] {{User|Mso Lambert}}: Hi all

[10:12] {{User|Taka Linden}}: Do any of you run inworld businesses?

[10:12] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: and we need notecards that read arabic

[10:12] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: yes

[10:12] SunnyBoy Arashi: sorry all gota go some one need help

[10:12] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: I do

[10:12] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Taka - what would be the second edition of AvaLine, then?

[10:12] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: hya Surf, Yann

[10:12] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: Ciaran, if they could rewrite and supersede old tools in functionality I'd agree

[10:12] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: languagelab.com

[10:12] SunnyBoy Arashi: c ya next time

[10:12] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: ok - so avaline falls a little short as tools already exists that work and are better no offense

[10:12] {{User|Ludo Merit}}: Small one

[10:12] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Ya, that

[10:12] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: Yes, and IM works fine for my small business. Avaline has no

[10:12] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: purpose for me.

[10:13] {{User|Taka Linden}}: Future versions of AvaLine will expand the inworld audience, so a caller could participate in group
conversations, not just one-to-one voice chat.

[10:13] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: Better IM would be nice, but I've no need for voice-related anything.

[10:13] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: we use SL Voice

[10:13] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: and group chat

[10:13] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: does avaline work for anyone you know of ? I'd be interested to hear a positive also on this

[10:13] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: So if you all could create a wish list of things you wanted fixed, wanted to see, what would you include?

[10:13] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: Taka, yes, a business and a group utilizing Mentor resource.

[10:14] {{User|Ludo Merit}}: That would come in handy, Taka, though there's a program out there to do that already, which, unfortunately
for me, costs money.

[10:14] {{User|Taka Linden}}: Some of the biggest praise has come from the education community, where non-PC access to people inworld is
proving important.

[10:14] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Voice is okay, but a lot of my clients seem to want to use text, mainly for a written record.

[10:14] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: albeit a fairly quiet one

[10:14] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: Ok look im's get capped at 25, that needs fixing somehow

[10:14] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: first of main connective tool is the SL blog - which is improved - but still yet not fully utilized

[10:14] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: Blondin, Group Chat, Group Notices, IM Chat, Inventory, Teleporting, Pie

[10:14] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: off*

[10:14] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: or some other number, it's around 25 I think, or is it size based?

[10:14] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: as I could see many residents do not like voice chat so far... but any change in that direction is
glad IMHO

[10:14] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: We teach English and other languages, we need voice

[10:14] {{User|Ludo Merit}}: If you come up with an equally good group phone feature that costs less I might use it eventually

[10:15] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: oh we talking inworld?>

[10:15] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: In-world/out-world IM that's better than replying to previous IM's-to-email.

[10:15] {{User|Bluegin Yifu}}: Is the main issue here what tools to use in communicating? Or is the issue how to have clearer
communications? Or all of this?

[10:15] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: Group notices that work, and more groups.

[10:15] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: Educators too are split in 2 opposite points of view

[10:15] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: yes, our notices didn't work today

[10:15] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: The ability to NOT communicate -- to turn off group chat without blocking local communication.

[10:15] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: yeah I'd be happy if the basics worked - then move to additions and so on

[10:15] {{User|Yann Dufaux}}: burned :p

[10:15] {{User|Taka Linden}}: {{User|Lowri Mills}}: Please tell me more about how Notices didn't work for you today.

[10:16] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: yes, I agree the 25 group limit tends to be annoying when you've maxed out

[10:16] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: Communication in sharing same document would a big thing too

[10:16] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: however again I do feel the main blog is still not up 2 speed in terms of actually use

[10:16] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: thing*

[10:16] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: we had a teacher out with the flu, and she sent 3 notices , none of them worked

[10:16] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: but those around 4am did work

[10:16] {{User|Yann Dufaux}}: aw, more of 25 group could be very great ㋡

[10:16] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: as ever

[10:16] {{User|Taka Linden}}: Hmmm. Did she tell customer support?

[10:16] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: that old chestnut

[10:16] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: it just happened

[10:17] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: I'm *always* maxed out on groups. The current group/IM framework may have worked in 2003, but it's pretty
overworked in 2009

[10:17] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: it happens on an off

[10:17] {{User|Ludo Merit}}: Haven't we mentors been asking for more than 25 for years? There must be a reason why not or we'd have 'em.

[10:17] {{User|Taka Linden}}: How many groups would you like?

[10:17] {{User|Taka Linden}}: if you could have any number?

[10:17] {{User|Taka Linden}}: How many do you need?

[10:17] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: Blondin, there are several proposed solutions for that, LL just has to take the initiative, the most popular
and the most realistic to implement I think is the proposal to change it to two types of groups

[10:17] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: realistically another 10 - no need to be greedy

[10:17] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: as manay as I can get

[10:17] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: which would lessen load enough to allow more groups

[10:17] {{User|Yann Dufaux}}: Taka, 35 of 40 groups ㋡

[10:17] {{User|Daniel Voyager}}: 35+

[10:18] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: yes Ludo... I agree... more than 25 is a big tech mess I guess

[10:18] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: I may not need so many groups if I had more roles and different tools

[10:18] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: To be honest, given the current method of groups for announcements, for build access, etc, I would be
*comfortable* with 35-50, but would prefer not having a cap

[10:18] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: I assumed groups was a no go - due to computing and processing ? it doesn't work not - so with a group
increase the problems would also increase - so it pie in the sky

[10:18] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: where you could have different roles receive notices

[10:18] {{User|Yann Dufaux}}: but with the possibility to fusion the parallel group

[10:18] {{User|Taka Linden}}: The reason there is a group limit at all is to manage system overload. But we do hear loudly and clearly that
25 is too low for many residents.

[10:18] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: now*

[10:18] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: Ludo, agreed, we have 1 official and what 3 or 4 unofficial but necessary groups?

[10:18] {{User|Ludo Merit}}: Well, if people would use groups more wisely, I might be able to get along with 25, but people are using
groups for things they could use subscriber lists for, and using multiple groups instead of roles in groups

[10:18] {{User|Yann Dufaux}}: lite a hotmail emails fusion ㋡

[10:18] {{User|Yann Dufaux}}: like*

[10:19] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: True, Poid. The whole *system* needs an update. It's pretty fundamentally limited

[10:19] {{User|Ludo Merit}}: But there's a reason for that. If we could send notices to a group role instead of the whole group, we'd need
fewer groups

[10:19] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: Taka, are you hearing our proposed solutions on the JIRA to lower that load?

[10:19] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: Taka can a new work about like subscribe o matic be implemented ? and broadly used?

[10:19] {{User|Taka Linden}}: What percentage of group messages are really one-way messages from businesses trying to promote their
offerings?

[10:19] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: Imagine to have to handle connections for over 25 groups for each of us..... sorting residents on line etc .. a big bunch of data may cause big crashes

[10:19] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: I'm with Gordon on moving to a two kinds of group system, how many land groups I need is not the same as asking how many groups I'd like to receive notices from

[10:19] {{User|Taka Linden}}: subscribeomatic is interesting

[10:19] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: Most of the useful message are, IMO.

[10:19] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: This is not a criticism, simply a note that SL has grown to a point where it needs a more scalable system
in place for that

[10:19] Guy Linden is Online

[10:19] {{User|Taka Linden}}: does anyone here use subscribeomatic?

[10:20] {{User|Ludo Merit}}: Yes

[10:20] {{User|Yann Dufaux}}: if i have a group to support and other customer update, i need to did a fusion of group to send notices or proposal one times for the two group ㋡

[10:20] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Ciaran - I've long advocated creating a build/script access list into the estate or parcel information.

[10:20] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: we should have a free "subscibing system" for example

[10:20] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: I'm in some subscribe-o-matic groups and I've used Hipp groups which is a similar thing

[10:20] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: Gordon, Ciaran, is there a Jira for that?

[10:20] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Do away with needing a "rez group" entirely

[10:20] {{User|Ludo Merit}}: It's free so I can use it.

[10:20] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: yes, one second and I'll try to find it

[10:20] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: or set up an out of world system perhaps - maybe for premium users ? so they can have as many groups as they like - a separate connections area which is web based ..... outside box soltions

[10:20] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: unless Ciaran has a link handy

[10:20] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: Hippo Groups

[10:21] {{User|Ludo Merit}}: Cost money

[10:21] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: is it free?

[10:21] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: No Gordon, unfortunately I don't have them handy

[10:21] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: Marianne that's a good proposal on scripted access in the parcel

[10:21] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: I know many would be happy to pay an extra premium for additional groups offers

[10:22] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Ciaran - thanks. It would cut several groups from my must have list

[10:22] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: now that is a good idea

[10:22] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: Poid, that would be a neat feature for premium accounts, an incentive perhaps to upgrade

[10:22] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: I would pay for extra roles, groups, etc

[10:22] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: More groups seems an obvious solution to the "How to make premium worthwhile" question.

[10:22] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: yus exactly

[10:22] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2833 is the general issue and http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2816 is the specific issue for the separate types

[10:22] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: do in in RL bussiness - so do it here

[10:22] {{User|Bluegin Yifu}}: Group chat can be so annoying. Subscribeomatic is good for most big groups and shows.

[10:22] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Ciaran: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-12078

[10:23] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: *nods at BlueGin

[10:23] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: Cheers Mari

[10:23] {{User|Marianne Mccann}} grins

[10:23] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: that's another one that could be implemented, none of them are exclusively viable so all or some of them could be implemented it seems

[10:23] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: We really need the granularity on which group chat to hear.

[10:24] {{User|Taka Linden}}: Got it.

[10:24] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: but make a subscrobe o matic a standard SL feature or a premium one

[10:24] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: if we suppose that is not possible to increase inworld group numbers... why don't offer a
subscriptomatic official mechanism?

[10:24] {{User|Taka Linden}}: So opt-in group messages?

[10:24] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: ha exactly Bianca

[10:24]  {{User|Bluegin Yifu}}: yes

[10:24] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: having scriptable group invites would be a good way to deal with subscribe-o-matic type experience

[10:24] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: Opt-in, that we can turn on or off easily.

[10:24] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: I like the feature where we can now add the person's card into group chat, instead of making another group

[10:24] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: Opt-in is always the nicer solution

[10:24] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: if they raised groups

[10:24] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: And make sure to handle notices and chat separately.

[10:24] {{User|Taka Linden}}: OK. This is great feedback.

[10:24] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: true, Gordon

[10:24] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: opt in with control even - imagine

[10:25] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: its a basic bolt one in actual fact

[10:25] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: on*

[10:25] {{User|Ludo Merit}}: My problem with turning off groups is that they don't come back on the way they used to, so if I turn one off
I don't hear it again unless I remember to turn it on.

[10:25] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: yeah a setting for that wud be good

[10:25] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: again to give options and control

[10:26] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: group chat on/off/

[10:26] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: llGroupInvite, llGroupEject, should be implemented, group invite would send a standard group invite and
would have to be only usable in touch and have a mute button to prevent spamming

[10:26] {{User|Bluegin Yifu}}: great idea, poid

[10:26] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Agreed

[10:26] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: don't have a JIRA for that but would be good

[10:26] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: That would also cut down on the need for group inviter bots

[10:26] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: eject how many times do u see a group chat spammer muted - who only relogs and is right back at it

[10:26] {{User|Yann Dufaux}}: protection against flood of voice/group request ㋡

[10:27] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: Good point Ciaran. You know how I'm such a fan of bots

[10:27] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: oh, group banning is a feature that is desperately needed

[10:27] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: Yes Blondin, we've noticed ;)

[10:27] {{User|Torben Trautman}}: hi there

[10:27] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: you should be able to ban people from groups

[10:27] {{User|Yann Dufaux}}: hi Torben ㋡

[10:27] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: we need a group ban feature

[10:27] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: some other viewers )I've heard) allow ppl to take down all friend list and other data and they use it
for spam purposes (that is the reverse face of the medal)

[10:27] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: a perm on/ off mute for group and individuals is also useful - but would have to show the avatar who is
perm muted - so there is a chance to undo :P

[10:27] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Amen, Gordon

[10:27] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: a group ban feature?

[10:28] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: chat spam because of chat lag

[10:28] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: as ever

[10:28] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: one sec, I'll grab the link to that

[10:28] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: too much ideas here lol chat lag

[10:28] {{User|Yann Dufaux}}: chat voice , in group = chat lag for other (i think ..)

[10:28] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: yeah Blondin, an ability to have a banlist for a group to ban avatars from joining

[10:28] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: Blondin u can eject a group member - they can if the group is set to open enrol rejoin again

[10:28] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: is a pain in the *CENSORED*

[10:28] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: yeah, what poid said

[10:28] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: so effectively you can not perm ban

[10:29] {{User|Ludo Merit}}: I ask

[10:29] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: from a group

[10:29] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: this shouldn't be confused with the request some extremists have to be able to ban people from property
based on the groups they're in

[10:29] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: oh I get it poid

[10:29] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: yeah that Gordon is in my opinion not needed

[10:29] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: something for you to clean up

[10:29] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: HIPPOS

[10:29] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: that is all :)

[10:29] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: *nods

[10:29] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: Apologise for throwing an aside in here, but does anyone use Slim?

[10:29] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: apologies even

[10:29] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: nope

[10:30] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: nope

[10:30] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: no

[10:30] {{User|Sitearm Madonna}} waves

[10:30] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Ciaran - I have used it a time or two, but not with much seriousness

[10:30] {{User|Ludo Merit}}: Slim?

[10:30] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: ㋡

[10:30] Ran Hienrichs is Online

[10:30] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: The only time i need a "SLim, well, I need something with more features, and use SparkleIM on my iPhone

[10:30] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: I have Slim , used it once or twice

[10:30] {{User|Taka Linden}}: has anyone used both subscribeomatic and hippo groups?

[10:30] {{User|Taka Linden}}: is one better than the other?

[10:30] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: it was helpful but wasn't widely adapted

[10:30] {{User|Taka Linden}}: or are they comparable

[10:30] {{User|Taka Linden}}: ?

[10:30] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: maybe a mas questionairre what do we need to communicate in SL - might help u guys get a better overview -
this is a small selection here - but is the same stuff and feedback I have heard for last 4 yrs

[10:30] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: no

[10:31] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Ive used subscribeomatics. Like much

[10:31] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2825

[10:31] {{User|Ludo Merit}}: Subscribeomatic is free for small groups, so it is better

[10:31] {{User|Yann Dufaux}}: whats hippo group?

[10:31] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: hippo is a rental system

[10:31] {{User|Sitearm Madonna}}: we use the bot method

[10:31] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: that's the ban list request, it also has a duplicate with a lot of votes at http://jira.secondlife.com/browse
/SVC-2826

[10:31] {{User|Sitearm Madonna}}: it avoids griefers banned from the region getting back into the group

[10:31] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: II've only ever used subscribe-o-matic as a customer, Hippo I've used as a merchant to send information,
they seem similar in purpose

[10:31] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: with additions to hippo u can do other stuff such a group subscribes etc

[10:32] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: Ciaran, people shouldn't need to resort to bots to handle region and group control though, wouldn't you
agree?

[10:32] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: agreed Gordon

[10:32] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: Absolutely Gordon

[10:32] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: there are work arounds a SL /LL system to get what is needed

[10:32] {{User|Sitearm Madonna}}: well I still think users have more programming numbers on hand to invent things than poor overwhelmed LL
does

[10:32] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: plan and simple

[10:32] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: plane*#

[10:33] {{User|Sitearm Madonna}}: ty Bianca

[10:33] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: yw

[10:33] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: Thanks for the Jira Gordon

[10:34] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: Blondin, I linked and closed that second one I just linked as a duplicate of the first, but both have a ton
of votes

[10:34] {{User|Mso Lambert}}: hippoGroups are nicely integrated with their other products, like Hippo vendor, but some of our customers
(I'm Subscribe-O-Matic creator) say they are overwhelmed by too many features :) Subscribe-O-Matic is also strictly opt-in only,
while hippoGroups allow group owners to add avatar keys/names manually to their database.

[10:34] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: that sounds underhanded

[10:35] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: what's to stop a hippogroups owner from adding the w-hat database with a bot and spamming everyone

[10:35] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: I think they discourage it, I dislike buying from a store and being spammed

[10:35] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: and I use w-hat as an example because it can be easily pulled via bot if someone wanted to

[10:35] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: non Gordon it is possible but is not fail proof

[10:35] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: <sigh> nothing ever is

[10:35] {{User|Taka Linden}}: How about voicemail? Has anyone tried it?

[10:36] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: true u can script by pass it so I am told ?

[10:36] Echo Linden is Offline

[10:36] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: I tested it on Avaline but decided listening to my own message was a tad too sad!

[10:36] {{User|Taka Linden}}: :-)

[10:36] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: awww

[10:36] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: I have not used it aside form testing. It really hasn't been a need for me.

[10:36] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: Taka, I don't use anything with voice and won't anytime in the next few years.

[10:36] {{User|Yann Dufaux}}: thanks Sietearm ㋡

[10:37] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: It's just irrelevant -- I write, I want want written records.

[10:37] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: same here, I keep my RL and my SL seperate

[10:37] {{User|Taka Linden}}: Apparently, each month between 8,000 and 12,000 inworld calls go unanswered

[10:37] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: and voice would break that

[10:37] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: I'm not here to sing.

[10:37] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Rihanna - yes, I find the written record to be of a lot of use in some of my projects.

[10:37] {{User|Taka Linden}}: To me, that feels like a lot of missed communication.

[10:37] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: what do u mean by that Taka?

[10:37] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: Taka, do you have stats about how many IM's go unanswered? now that would be an interesting stat

[10:37] {{User|Taka Linden}}: and an opportunity for us to enhance the service to help people connect

[10:37] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: Voice is great as an option -- for presentations and concerts and such.

[10:38] {{User|Taka Linden}}: I don't have a similar stat on IMs, though it would be interesting.

[10:38] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: But I think the focus on getting us all to use it as a primary communication tool is misled.

[10:38] {{User|Mso Lambert}}: I'm more worried how many IM's end up in a void when offline IMs cap :)

[10:38] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: I like the option of voice, hardly ever use it but I like the option

[10:38] {{User|Ludo Merit}}: The thing about voice is that is so often has hum or static behind it

[10:38] {{User|Bluegin Yifu}}: What do you mean when you say IM's go unanswered?

[10:39] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: I agree with MSO, capped IM's need to end, there has to be a better system

[10:39] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: So Taka - I am interested in why LL wud spend time and resource on Avaline when it maybe looks like skype
is being used more? how many calls were successfully connected ?

[10:39] {{User|Taka Linden}}: Gordon, please do explain. Are you asking about IMs that are capped, or simply not responded to?

[10:39] {{User|Sitearm Madonna}}: SL Voice is still about 90% reliable in a group of more than 3, where reliable means "it works for
everyone immediately first time" and that 10% not working is a time eater

[10:39] {{User|Taka Linden}}: I don't have an exact number for call success rate, but it is very high.

[10:39] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: responding to MSO I meant capped by the system, currently they go to /dev/null which is unacceptable

[10:39] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: capped IM - just send to email - no more capped IM's

[10:40] {{User|Taka Linden}}: The reason we're building the AvaLine system is to lower the barriers to participation inworld.

[10:40] {{User|Ludo Merit}}: I already get so much email I can't read it

[10:40] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: How reliable is im to email and vice versa?

[10:40] {{User|Mso Lambert}}: I was always wondering, is there a technical / architectural reason for the IM cap system?

[10:40] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: I meant how many calls were made with Aveline and over what time period Taka :)

[10:40] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: Taka, AvaLine raises barriers. I don't even have a mic on my machine.

[10:40] {{User|Taka Linden}}: The ability to loop in people on phones is a big deal. One-to-one is only the first step.

[10:40] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: I get all my IMs to me email.

[10:40] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: ie, reliable for me

[10:41] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: ditto Blondin

[10:41] {{User|Lexie Linden}}: For me too

[10:41] {{User|Taka Linden}}: It's not a requirement.

[10:41] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: Are any of you having trouble with that?

[10:41] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: Taka, it would require a huge undertaking and a total rewrite to how IM"s work but the only viable option I
can think of would be an inbox/outbox message style system, going to a halfway point between IM and email but within SL

[10:41] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: How do you know you get them all :p

[10:41] {{User|Sitearm Madonna}} idly wonders when the iPhone SL Client is coming out *coff*

[10:41] {{User|Ludo Merit}}: I don't want to get phone calls from people on line when I am off line. Off line is MY time.

[10:41] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: incidentally, a bit off topic but IM to email still has huge issues with non english characters

[10:41] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: I never get why peeps say my im's r capped as u can see em all in email - maybe a blog on this option to
clarify is needed?

[10:41] {{User|Sitearm Madonna}}: ooh ooh I bet the IM work rewrite would go hand in hand with the Group rewrite

[10:41] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Sitearm. Then I'd never have to leave SL again.

[10:41] {{User|Marianne Mccann}} winks

[10:41] {{User|Mso Lambert}}: Sitearm, try SparkleIM for iPhone :)

[10:41] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: Adroid SL Client

[10:42] {{User|Sitearm Madonna}}: lol Mar

[10:42] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: Im not that popular Ciaran. Are you informed when you've reached your IM limit?

[10:42] {{User|Sitearm Madonna}}: yikes MSo I that I was kidding!

[10:42] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: no troubles to get emailed ims but sometimes Im gets messed when you login and crash or they show up
late when you relog a few times after...

[10:42] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: I use SparkleIM already. Not bad, all in all. Still pretty limited

[10:42] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: Poid some people don't like the option of im's to email

[10:42] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: U get told when you log in that IM's r capped

[10:42] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: "Your messages have been capped."

[10:42] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: Blondin yeah you get a message when you login

[10:42] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: but still you get all to email if you enable that feature

[10:42] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: Gordon, what is the problem with non-English speakers? Couldn't you argue that the language barrier itself
is the real problem?

[10:42] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: I see that from time to time

[10:42] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: not sure how many people communicate with people who use Chinese, Japanese, Korean, middle eastern or slavic
languages but those have a tendency to break IM to email either recieving in your email or replying via the fast reply

[10:43] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: yes Blondin u could

[10:43] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: a standard sl translator would rock

[10:43] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: Also how long do you get to reply to an im from email? Is it a day or two?

[10:43] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: Blondin, see above, there are technical issues, and it's particularly bad for the issues that top replying
due to bad encoding since you lose your single use reply key

[10:43] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: again a feature

[10:43] {{User|Taka Linden}}: a couple days

[10:44] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: I communicate with people all over the world

[10:44] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: daily

[10:44] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: Taka, cleaning that up each day must be one heck of a chron job

[10:44] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: and they have a terrible time

[10:44] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: imagine having a translator option bolted on as a feature - and again cud be costed as a premium feature
....

[10:44] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: depending

[10:44] {{User|Bluegin Yifu}}: a standard issue translator for all in SL would be revolutionary. Would rock this world.

[10:44] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: yup

[10:44] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: that would open a HUGE comms door for SL

[10:44] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: Gordon is that issue still about with characters not counting the size correctly?

[10:44] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: we have 6000 arabic people coming in and we can't even give them a notecard

[10:45] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Not good, Lowri

[10:45] {{User|Bluegin Yifu}}: Can you imagine? It would be a world first, I think.

[10:45] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: ahahahah i feel like snow is coming brrrr

[10:45] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: lol

[10:45] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: ;)

[10:45] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: The Chinese are locked out of the voice do to ISPs

[10:45] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: wow Lowri! 6000!

[10:45] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: Mari what's this Sparkle Im?

[10:45] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: however not sure the processing power would cope - since even group messages is a pain - adding a
translator would push thing in the tech to burn out I suspect

[10:45] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: Ciaran, I think there's a different one now, some characters will actually make the system discard the
reply, so say someone sends you an IM, it gets sent to your email you try to reply quoting that IM but that IM contains a strange
character, the reply doesn't go through because it got rejected by LL's server and you cannot try again because the reply code you get with your IM via email is a one time code

[10:46] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: so are some Middle East Countries

[10:46] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: I'll try to find the JIRA

[10:46] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: we can get more, it it is stable

[10:46] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: we are handing out pdf's and textures on SL

[10:46] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: There is a PJira out there that Philip has going about the Snowglobe viewer and translations

[10:46] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: Hvae you seen it?

[10:46] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: the issue of arabian or simmilar characters is something discussed in another OH with Blue too

[10:46] {{User|Mso Lambert}}: Gordon, are you sure the IM session code is a one-time thing? I've successfully replied multiple times to a
same email IM before....

[10:46] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: nope Blondin

[10:47] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: really?

[10:47] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: Ok, let me go find the link

[10:47] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: really I been away 3 weeks not caught up yet

[10:47] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: you should all vote on it. Its a good feature to implement.

[10:47] {{User|Lexie Linden}}: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-93

[10:47] Douglas Rishmal is Online

[10:47] Cody Bracken is Online

[10:47] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: wicked ty

[10:47] {{User|Lexie Linden}}: ㋡

[10:48] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: Haven't tried the client translator yet but it seems to be getting rave reviews on the sldev list

[10:48] {{User|Yann Dufaux}}: lexie i test this, but not now ㋡

[10:48] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: trying to follow all developments in SL is a task in itself - i wish the tech blog was more - how shall I
put it - compelling and featured more ?

[10:48] {{User|Lexie Linden}}: ok : )

[10:48] {{User|Yann Dufaux}}: well with the client translator its a very nice work!

[10:49] {{User|Taka Linden}}: How about SMS?

[10:49] {{User|Taka Linden}}: Would anyone use SMS in or out?

[10:49] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: i would love to get IMs in SMS form

[10:49] {{User|Ludo Merit}}: SMS?

[10:49] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: wud be cool

[10:49] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: :)

[10:49] {{User|Yann Dufaux}}: you can talk in any language, and the viewer translate in your setting pref ㋡

[10:49] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: yes, I have it on now

[10:49] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: SMS would interest me, but would i be able to send in or only reply?

[10:49] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: it tells me one person here speaks French

[10:49] {{User|Mso Lambert}}: I would love SMS in/out, even as a paid feature

[10:49] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: and translates

[10:50] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Blondin - yes, the option would be great. Or maybe from particular people (not all) for those who have a
capped amount of SMS traffic

[10:50] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: this would be a cool feature - depending on cost ? actually you can set up free sms and add a 'sponsors
text'

[10:50] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: I would think both Ci would be most useful

[10:50] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: so qualifies as marketing

[10:50] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: sponsor texts?

[10:50] {{User|Yann Dufaux}}: well, just don't work in ims, but with the privacy ruls i know te reason ㋡

[10:51] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: yes cell in the UK allow a limited free sms - orange for example and add at the bottom www,orange.co.uk

[10:51] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: sponsored texting service? isn't LL already getting sued, seems like this would be just asking for someone
to sue them again if they bring a marketing firm into SL

[10:51] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: targetted advertising and all that

[10:51] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: i ment add www.secondlife.com to the free SMS :)

[10:51] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: See that's the problem with im to email, I can't get hold of my minions easily, whereas if I could do it via
SMS that would be superb

[10:51] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: I love the idea of SMS but the idea of sponsored SMS no matter how you did it would cause problems I think

[10:52] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: not another mobile sponsor - however - that is not impossible idea ....

[10:52] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: grab at & T :)

[10:52] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: investors - might bite as something like this - know knows

[10:52] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: who*

[10:53] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: why problems business is business?

[10:53] {{User|Taka Linden}}: How about your.avatar@secondlife.com?

[10:53] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: investors cud allow cash growth to invest in new tech

[10:53] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: and users are incredibly irrational

[10:53] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: That has potential Taka

[10:53] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: Btw talking about communication... a thing I would love to know is if there is anymore any Second
Life Radio...

[10:53] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Taka - I would *love* to have that

[10:53] {{User|Taka Linden}}: Would a personal email alias be helpful for folks, or just one more email address?

[10:53] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: that was some other feedback we got from the blog

[10:54] {{User|Mso Lambert}}: I've used my.avatar@gmail.com for quite a while now, not sure about yet another email address, unless it came
with extra integrated features :)

[10:54] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: depends taka what benefits it had - how big a mail box and features

[10:54] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: Another "nice for premiums" feature -- email address for you rav.

[10:54] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: gmail rocks currently

[10:54] {{User|Taka Linden}}: OK

[10:54] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: your av, even.

[10:54] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Taka - for me it would be a useful addition. It would help, IMO, add a level of professionalism to those
of us doing business in here.

[10:54] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: I agree

[10:54] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: I agree with Mari on that point

[10:54] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: Taka, it would b ecool, I could set all my SLX email spam to go in a loop from my LL email to my Gordon
Wendt Gmail account back to my LL email and so on

[10:54] {{User|Ludo Merit}}: Would it be one more email address, or really one more email client? I have enough trouble using the one I've
got

[10:54] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: SL email rather, not LL email

[10:55] {{User|Taka Linden}}: depends on how we'd implement it, I suppose

[10:55] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: i was going to say Gordon!!!

[10:55] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: well u cud attach the second life one to ya gmail and have the best of both worlds :)

[10:55] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: a secondlife email addy and gmail features

[10:55] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: I would prefer it be usable as a forward to my non-SL account or elsewhere though, rather than a separate
e-mail system (web mail, etc) I'd have to read.

[10:55] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: Also yesterday people were saying they'd like to be able to im in via a standard messenger such as Yim or
MSN. Not sure how feasible that is

[10:55] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: *assumes the position

[10:56] {{User|Taka Linden}}: Would IM interoperability interest people?

[10:56] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Naw, I prefer my IMs integrated with the client

[10:56] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: yes Taka

[10:56] {{User|Taka Linden}}: or Skype interoperability?

[10:56] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Taka - yes

[10:56] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: and I'd have no qualms about doing that, speaking of communication, you should have a quiet word with the PR
team and tell them to stop sending advert emails unless we specifically op in

[10:56] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: none of this opt out bullshit

[10:56] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: and yes

[10:56] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: yes deffo skype

[10:56] {{User|Sitearm Madonna}}: @Gordon I agree -

[10:56] {{User|Sitearm Madonna}}: :)

[10:56] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: I've seen people ask for better lip syncing as well. Don't really know if that would count as a
communication tool

[10:56] {{User|Taka Linden}}: Would there be any issues related to Skype having some real names?

[10:56] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: skype is the leading online comms of choice so why not utilize that ?

[10:56] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: This is another statement I'm willing to say I think there's wide community support for

[10:56] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Gordon - surely you wanted to know all about that fashion show

[10:57] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: give a choice regarding names Taka

[10:57] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: Taka, umm..... yes

[10:57] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: Hi Joao

[10:57] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: {{User|Marianne Mccann}} has a Skype account /me winks

[10:57] {{User|Taka Linden}}: OK

[10:57] joao Mastroianni: Hello everyone :-))

[10:57] {{User|Taka Linden}}: This is great.

[10:57] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: bussiness and personal - RL name or avatar - choices are important

[10:58] {{User|Taka Linden}}: I really appreciate the input.

[10:58] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: Marianne, of course, I'm actually one of the largest fashion designers in SL in disguise, I just left my
high heels in my inventory for today :)

[10:58] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: so does {{User|Lowri Mills}}

[10:58] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: lol

[10:58] joao Mastroianni: Bianca :)

[10:58] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: The radio when I started was a good way to communicate from LL side to all or from a sort of official
channel...

[10:58] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: radio SL wud be cool

[10:58] {{User|Bluegin Yifu}}: Are you talking about making these communication tools part of SL or do you mean everyone within SL should
get these also? Then, do we need separate accounts for our RL and SL selves? Gets confusing and I do not know how many casual
players will do this.

[10:58] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: as a official channel

[10:58] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Yes, Radio Linden. That's one old product

[10:58] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: Blondin, people are also asking for it to be on by default and have the option to turn it off hidden so deep
as to make it essentially mandatory, that doesn't mean it isn't a horrible idea

[10:59] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: lip sync should be the lowest priority possible

[10:59] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: Radio and podcasting are both nice passive channels to reach people who

[10:59]  {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: good easy comms - unless yr non english speaking

[10:59] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Shame that and the old info boards are so, well, unused.

[10:59] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: in my opinion

[10:59] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: :)

[10:59] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: with tutorials on it would be good

[10:59] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: wouldn't necessarily hunt up the blogs, and they've both been abandoned.

[10:59] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: Blondin, I know we have like 1 minute left but are you guys going to do something about making the new boards actually usable?

[10:59] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: the new forum boards I mean

[11:00] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: which boards Gordon?

[11:00] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: k

[11:00] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: yeah web site needs a tweak in functionality

[11:00] {{User|Bluegin Yifu}}: Is our purpose to discuss how LL can communicate to residents or how we can all communicate within SL? The
goal is to communicate with SL, isn't it? Not how do we communicate external to SL.

[11:00] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: yes... and as far as I could see .. listening in english is good to improve so .. Radio feature is a good tutorial way

[11:00] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: the new commerce board, eventually to be the whole forum, currently they are incredibly unusable, IF YOU GO LIVE WITH MOVING EVERYTHING OVER YOU WILL LOSE RESIDENTS

[11:00] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: sorry for the caps but that needed to be shouted

[11:00] {{User|Bluegin Yifu}}: *WITHIN SL

[11:01] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: hey all, Taka and I need to go.

[11:01] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}} dittos Gordon.

[11:01] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: But this was a good turn out

[11:01] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: Lots of useful info

[11:01] {{User|Lexie Linden}}: Great discussion ㋡

[11:01] {{User|Sitearm Madonna}}: shall you post a summary ?

[11:01] {{User|Taka Linden}}: Thanks again, everyone.

[11:01] {{User|Gordon Wendt}}: and of course I get ignored by the Lindens

[11:01] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: Cheers Blondin, shall we just camp here till you come back? ;)

[11:01] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: You're welcome! :-)

[11:01] {{User|Torben Trautman}} waves

[11:01] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: I will clean up the chat log

[11:01] {{User|Torben Trautman}}: bye all

[11:01] {{User|Sitearm Madonna}}: on the blog or sumpin :) ?

[11:01] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: ty all

[11:01] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: See ya later today, Blondin

[11:01] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: and have a transcript for those who ask

[11:01] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: Thank you, for the time and discussion

[11:01] {{User|Taka Linden}}: Gordon, thanks for joining!

[11:01] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: Thanks Taka and Lexie

[11:01] {{User|Taka Linden}}: really good insights

User:Blondin Linden/Commtools 16SEP09

2009-09-17T02:58:01Z

Gordon Wendt: linking names

Office Hours Meeting Notes 16-Sep-2009

Topic: Communication Tools

Participants (21):
* {{User|{{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}}}
* {{User|{{User|Blondin Linden}}}}
* {{User|{{User|Bluegin Yifu}}}}
* {{User|Ciaran Laval}}
* {{User|{{User|Daniel Voyager}}}}
* {{User|{{User|Ella Mcmahon}}}}
* {{User|{{User|{{User|Gordon Wendt}}}}}}
* {{User|Joao Miastroianni}}
* {{User|Kris Darmoset}}
* {{User|Lexie Linden}}
* {{User|Lowri Mills}}
* {{User|Ludo Merit}}
* {{User|Marianne Mccann}}
* {{User|Mso Lambert}}
* {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}
* {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}
* {{User|Sitearm Madonna}}
* {{User|Surfaqua Oh}}
* {{User|Taka Linden}}
* {{User|Torben Trautman}}
* {{User|Yann Dufaux}}

[10:03] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: Well, I suppose we can begin. Thanks all for coming! This meeting was a result of some of the feedback we got from the Avaline blog post

[10:03] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: :P Gordon

[10:04] {{User|Gordon Went}}: was the feedback that most users wanted nothing to do with it and that LL was wasting their time?

[10:04] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: I don't know if you all had a chance to read it, but Taka here was interested in engaging outside of the comments and getting a wider view of how we can better improve commnication tools in SL.

[10:04] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: Something along those lines Gordon :)

[10:05] {{User|Taka Linden}}: Yes. How many of you are using AvaLine now?

[10:05] {{User|Gordon Went}}: I think most users want groups to work, IM's to work, and for commiunication via notecard not to be the only reliable option

[10:05] {{User|Taka Linden}}: or Skype?

[10:05] {{User|Gordon Went}}: or SLVoice? nobody uses that either

[10:05] {{User|Gordon Went}}: groups being group IM's in this context

[10:05] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: I didn't extend my Avaline usage beyond the beta test

[10:05] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: we use SL Voice

[10:05] {{User|Ludo Merit}}: Using Skype, and SL voice. I sing a capella in it

[10:06] {{User|Daniel Voyager}}: I use Skype mostly.

[10:06] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: I think a lot of the feedback we got was that Skype was the prefered method of communication

[10:06] {{User|Bluegin Yifu}}: I do not know what the Avaline blog is; so I guess that's the first thing I have to say about communications. hehe

[10:06] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: we are finding firewalls in the middle east and some Chinese ISPs that block it

[10:06] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: I'll find the link Blue Gin

[10:06] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: Avaline might be useful for some very big companies but it falls flat for the average user

[10:06] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: I beta tested Avaline.

[10:06] {{User|Gordon Went}}: even if some people do use it, because so many people used/use skype it seems like there was a lot of
duplicated effort that only achieved splitting the community into using two incompatible systems

[10:06] {{User|Daniel Voyager}}: Twitter and Plurk seems to be getting popular these days. :p

[10:07] {{User|Daniel Voyager}}: with SL

[10:07] {{User|Lexie Linden}}: good point Daniel

[10:07] {{User|Taka Linden}}: Do people use Twitter and Plurk for the same kind of messaging as Group Chat?

[10:07] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: Do you guys have an Avaline number for support calls?

[10:07] {{User|Taka Linden}}: they seem like quite different tools to me

[10:08] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/features/blog/2009/08/19/bye-bye-beta-avaline-dial-an-avatar-is-now-
available-to-all-avatars

[10:08] SunnyBoy Arashi: i do not have , don't know so much about it

[10:08] {{User|Taka Linden}}: As for AvaLine as a way to reach support, it is not currently an option.

[10:08] {{User|Ludo Merit}}: It would never have occurred to me to use twitter for chat

[10:08] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: Twitter and Plurk can virus a message much faster

[10:08] {{User|Gordon Went}}: having to watch both twitter and plurk is a pain

[10:08] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Agreed, Poid

[10:08] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: Why is faster better?

[10:08] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: Ah thanks Taka, I think that would be a good way of showcasing Avaline if you did offer that as an option.

[10:08] {{User|Taka Linden}}: Good idea.

[10:08] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: Gordon so get a tool to view all at once - ire friend feed

[10:08] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: I use Plurk. I find it a great tool to pass links and news about whats going on

[10:09] {{User|Ludo Merit}}: I won't use anything I have to pay more for, such as Avaline

[10:09] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: I like the Karma :)

[10:09] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: there are some abrogators Gordon for that?

[10:09] {{User|Gordon Went}}: Taka, of course not, that would be proof that LL has confidence in avaline as a platform and you can't have
that :)

[10:09] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: Notices sent to e-mail give us an easy record to refer back to -- if they just worked.

[10:09] {{User|Gordon Went}}: *that

[10:09] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: yeah avaline is a needless expense imho

[10:09] {{User|Gordon Went}}: second what Rihanna just said

[10:09] {{User|Taka Linden}}: Actually, the support team has a very specific set of needs, and AvaLine was not designed to serve those "use
cases"

[10:10] {{User|Taka Linden}}: though it definitely could be helpful in some circumstances

[10:10] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: Avaline is useful for ambitious business within SL, you can offer worldwide phone access

[10:10] Petra Linden is Online

[10:10] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: what was it's parameters specifically then Taka?

[10:10] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: I've yet to find a good use of AvaLine with my clients, at least not any that Skype isn't already handling

[10:10] {{User|Gordon Went}}: As I said before though, I think there is a pretty strong consensus among users that they don't want new
communications tools, they want the existing tools to do what they're advertised to do and supposed to do

[10:11] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: *nods

[10:11] {{User|Bluegin Yifu}}: agree

[10:11] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: yes

[10:11] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: ?me nods vigorously.

[10:11] {{User|Ludo Merit}} nods too

[10:11] {{User|Taka Linden}}: This first edition of AvaLine is intended simply to allow someone inworld to stay in touch with people who
are not online

[10:11] {{User|Gordon Went}}: Can I assume that there is an internal team at LL that handles comm. tools?

[10:11] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: I don't mind new tools if they offer better functionality than the current tools, group chat and notices is
rather clunky

[10:11] {{User|Lexie Linden}}: Hi Yann and Surf

[10:11] {{User|Surfaqua Oh}}: hello

[10:12] {{User|Mso Lambert}}: Hi all

[10:12] {{User|Taka Linden}}: Do any of you run inworld businesses?

[10:12] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: and we need notecards that read arabic

[10:12] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: yes

[10:12] SunnyBoy Arashi: sorry all gota go some one need help

[10:12] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: I do

[10:12] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Taka - what would be the second edition of AvaLine, then?

[10:12] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: hya Surf, Yann

[10:12] {{User|Gordon Went}}: Ciaran, if they could rewrite and supersede old tools in functionality I'd agree

[10:12] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: languagelab.com

[10:12] SunnyBoy Arashi: c ya next time

[10:12] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: ok - so avaline falls a little short as tools already exists that work and are better no offense

[10:12] {{User|Ludo Merit}}: Small one

[10:12] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Ya, that

[10:12] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: Yes, and IM works fine for my small business. Avaline has no

[10:12] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: purpose for me.

[10:13] {{User|Taka Linden}}: Future versions of AvaLine will expand the inworld audience, so a caller could participate in group
conversations, not just one-to-one voice chat.

[10:13] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: Better IM would be nice, but I've no need for voice-related anything.

[10:13] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: we use SL Voice

[10:13] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: and group chat

[10:13] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: does avaline work for anyone you know of ? I'd be interested to hear a positive also on this

[10:13] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: So if you all could create a wish list of things you wanted fixed, wanted to see, what would you include?

[10:13] {{User|Gordon Went}}: Taka, yes, a business and a group utilizing Mentor resource.

[10:14] {{User|Ludo Merit}}: That would come in handy, Taka, though there's a program out there to do that already, which, unfortunately
for me, costs money.

[10:14] {{User|Taka Linden}}: Some of the biggest praise has come from the education community, where non-PC access to people inworld is
proving important.

[10:14] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Voice is okay, but a lot of my clients seem to want to use text, mainly for a written record.

[10:14] {{User|Gordon Went}}: albeit a fairly quiet one

[10:14] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: Ok look im's get capped at 25, that needs fixing somehow

[10:14] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: first of main connective tool is the SL blog - which is improved - but still yet not fully utilized

[10:14] {{User|Gordon Went}}: Blondin, Group Chat, Group Notices, IM Chat, Inventory, Teleporting, Pie

[10:14] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: off*

[10:14] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: or some other number, it's around 25 I think, or is it size based?

[10:14] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: as I could see many residents do not like voice chat so far... but any change in that direction is
glad IMHO

[10:14] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: We teach English and other languages, we need voice

[10:14] {{User|Ludo Merit}}: If you come up with an equally good group phone feature that costs less I might use it eventually

[10:15] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: oh we talking inworld?>

[10:15] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: In-world/out-world IM that's better than replying to previous IM's-to-email.

[10:15] {{User|Bluegin Yifu}}: Is the main issue here what tools to use in communicating? Or is the issue how to have clearer
communications? Or all of this?

[10:15] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: Group notices that work, and more groups.

[10:15] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: Educators too are split in 2 opposite points of view

[10:15] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: yes, our notices didn't work today

[10:15] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: The ability to NOT communicate -- to turn off group chat without blocking local communication.

[10:15] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: yeah I'd be happy if the basics worked - then move to additions and so on

[10:15] {{User|Yann Dufaux}}: burned :p

[10:15] {{User|Taka Linden}}: {{User|Lowri Mills}}: Please tell me more about how Notices didn't work for you today.

[10:16] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: yes, I agree the 25 group limit tends to be annoying when you've maxed out

[10:16] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: Communication in sharing same document would a big thing too

[10:16] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: however again I do feel the main blog is still not up 2 speed in terms of actually use

[10:16] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: thing*

[10:16] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: we had a teacher out with the flu, and she sent 3 notices , none of them worked

[10:16] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: but those around 4am did work

[10:16] {{User|Yann Dufaux}}: aw, more of 25 group could be very great ㋡

[10:16] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: as ever

[10:16] {{User|Taka Linden}}: Hmmm. Did she tell customer support?

[10:16] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: that old chestnut

[10:16] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: it just happened

[10:17] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: I'm *always* maxed out on groups. The current group/IM framework may have worked in 2003, but it's pretty
overworked in 2009

[10:17] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: it happens on an off

[10:17] {{User|Ludo Merit}}: Haven't we mentors been asking for more than 25 for years? There must be a reason why not or we'd have 'em.

[10:17] {{User|Taka Linden}}: How many groups would you like?

[10:17] {{User|Taka Linden}}: if you could have any number?

[10:17] {{User|Taka Linden}}: How many do you need?

[10:17] {{User|Gordon Went}}: Blondin, there are several proposed solutions for that, LL just has to take the initiative, the most popular
and the most realistic to implement I think is the proposal to change it to two types of groups

[10:17] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: realistically another 10 - no need to be greedy

[10:17] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: as manay as I can get

[10:17] {{User|Gordon Went}}: which would lessen load enough to allow more groups

[10:17] {{User|Yann Dufaux}}: Taka, 35 of 40 groups ㋡

[10:17] {{User|Daniel Voyager}}: 35+

[10:18] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: yes Ludo... I agree... more than 25 is a big tech mess I guess

[10:18] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: I may not need so many groups if I had more roles and different tools

[10:18] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: To be honest, given the current method of groups for announcements, for build access, etc, I would be
*comfortable* with 35-50, but would prefer not having a cap

[10:18] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: I assumed groups was a no go - due to computing and processing ? it doesn't work not - so with a group
increase the problems would also increase - so it pie in the sky

[10:18] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: where you could have different roles receive notices

[10:18] {{User|Yann Dufaux}}: but with the possibility to fusion the parallel group

[10:18] {{User|Taka Linden}}: The reason there is a group limit at all is to manage system overload. But we do hear loudly and clearly that
25 is too low for many residents.

[10:18] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: now*

[10:18] {{User|Gordon Went}}: Ludo, agreed, we have 1 official and what 3 or 4 unofficial but necessary groups?

[10:18] {{User|Ludo Merit}}: Well, if people would use groups more wisely, I might be able to get along with 25, but people are using
groups for things they could use subscriber lists for, and using multiple groups instead of roles in groups

[10:18] {{User|Yann Dufaux}}: lite a hotmail emails fusion ㋡

[10:18] {{User|Yann Dufaux}}: like*

[10:19] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: True, Poid. The whole *system* needs an update. It's pretty fundamentally limited

[10:19] {{User|Ludo Merit}}: But there's a reason for that. If we could send notices to a group role instead of the whole group, we'd need
fewer groups

[10:19] {{User|Gordon Went}}: Taka, are you hearing our proposed solutions on the JIRA to lower that load?

[10:19] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: Taka can a new work about like subscribe o matic be implemented ? and broadly used?

[10:19] {{User|Taka Linden}}: What percentage of group messages are really one-way messages from businesses trying to promote their
offerings?

[10:19] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: Imagine to have to handle connections for over 25 groups for each of us..... sorting residents on line etc .. a big bunch of data may cause big crashes

[10:19] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: I'm with Gordon on moving to a two kinds of group system, how many land groups I need is not the same as asking how many groups I'd like to receive notices from

[10:19] {{User|Taka Linden}}: subscribeomatic is interesting

[10:19] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: Most of the useful message are, IMO.

[10:19] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: This is not a criticism, simply a note that SL has grown to a point where it needs a more scalable system
in place for that

[10:19] Guy Linden is Online

[10:19] {{User|Taka Linden}}: does anyone here use subscribeomatic?

[10:20] {{User|Ludo Merit}}: Yes

[10:20] {{User|Yann Dufaux}}: if i have a group to support and other customer update, i need to did a fusion of group to send notices or proposal one times for the two group ㋡

[10:20] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Ciaran - I've long advocated creating a build/script access list into the estate or parcel information.

[10:20] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: we should have a free "subscibing system" for example

[10:20] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: I'm in some subscribe-o-matic groups and I've used Hipp groups which is a similar thing

[10:20] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: Gordon, Ciaran, is there a Jira for that?

[10:20] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Do away with needing a "rez group" entirely

[10:20] {{User|Ludo Merit}}: It's free so I can use it.

[10:20] {{User|Gordon Went}}: yes, one second and I'll try to find it

[10:20] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: or set up an out of world system perhaps - maybe for premium users ? so they can have as many groups as they like - a separate connections area which is web based ..... outside box soltions

[10:20] {{User|Gordon Went}}: unless Ciaran has a link handy

[10:20] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: Hippo Groups

[10:21] {{User|Ludo Merit}}: Cost money

[10:21] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: is it free?

[10:21] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: No Gordon, unfortunately I don't have them handy

[10:21] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: Marianne that's a good proposal on scripted access in the parcel

[10:21] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: I know many would be happy to pay an extra premium for additional groups offers

[10:22] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Ciaran - thanks. It would cut several groups from my must have list

[10:22] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: now that is a good idea

[10:22] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: Poid, that would be a neat feature for premium accounts, an incentive perhaps to upgrade

[10:22] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: I would pay for extra roles, groups, etc

[10:22] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: More groups seems an obvious solution to the "How to make premium worthwhile" question.

[10:22] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: yus exactly

[10:22] {{User|Gordon Went}}: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2833 is the general issue and http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2816 is the specific issue for the separate types

[10:22] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: do in in RL bussiness - so do it here

[10:22] {{User|Bluegin Yifu}}: Group chat can be so annoying. Subscribeomatic is good for most big groups and shows.

[10:22] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Ciaran: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-12078

[10:23] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: *nods at BlueGin

[10:23] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: Cheers Mari

[10:23] {{User|Marianne Mccann}} grins

[10:23] {{User|Gordon Went}}: that's another one that could be implemented, none of them are exclusively viable so all or some of them could be implemented it seems

[10:23] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: We really need the granularity on which group chat to hear.

[10:24] {{User|Taka Linden}}: Got it.

[10:24] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: but make a subscrobe o matic a standard SL feature or a premium one

[10:24] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: if we suppose that is not possible to increase inworld group numbers... why don't offer a
subscriptomatic official mechanism?

[10:24] {{User|Taka Linden}}: So opt-in group messages?

[10:24] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: ha exactly Bianca

[10:24]  {{User|Bluegin Yifu}}: yes

[10:24] {{User|Gordon Went}}: having scriptable group invites would be a good way to deal with subscribe-o-matic type experience

[10:24] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: Opt-in, that we can turn on or off easily.

[10:24] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: I like the feature where we can now add the person's card into group chat, instead of making another group

[10:24] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: Opt-in is always the nicer solution

[10:24] {{User|Gordon Went}}: if they raised groups

[10:24] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: And make sure to handle notices and chat separately.

[10:24] {{User|Taka Linden}}: OK. This is great feedback.

[10:24] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: true, Gordon

[10:24] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: opt in with control even - imagine

[10:25] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: its a basic bolt one in actual fact

[10:25] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: on*

[10:25] {{User|Ludo Merit}}: My problem with turning off groups is that they don't come back on the way they used to, so if I turn one off
I don't hear it again unless I remember to turn it on.

[10:25] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: yeah a setting for that wud be good

[10:25] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: again to give options and control

[10:26] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: group chat on/off/

[10:26] {{User|Gordon Went}}: llGroupInvite, llGroupEject, should be implemented, group invite would send a standard group invite and
would have to be only usable in touch and have a mute button to prevent spamming

[10:26] {{User|Bluegin Yifu}}: great idea, poid

[10:26] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Agreed

[10:26] {{User|Gordon Went}}: don't have a JIRA for that but would be good

[10:26] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: That would also cut down on the need for group inviter bots

[10:26] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: eject how many times do u see a group chat spammer muted - who only relogs and is right back at it

[10:26] {{User|Yann Dufaux}}: protection against flood of voice/group request ㋡

[10:27] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: Good point Ciaran. You know how I'm such a fan of bots

[10:27] {{User|Gordon Went}}: oh, group banning is a feature that is desperately needed

[10:27] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: Yes Blondin, we've noticed ;)

[10:27] {{User|Torben Trautman}}: hi there

[10:27] {{User|Gordon Went}}: you should be able to ban people from groups

[10:27] {{User|Yann Dufaux}}: hi Torben ㋡

[10:27] {{User|Gordon Went}}: we need a group ban feature

[10:27] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: some other viewers )I've heard) allow ppl to take down all friend list and other data and they use it
for spam purposes (that is the reverse face of the medal)

[10:27] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: a perm on/ off mute for group and individuals is also useful - but would have to show the avatar who is
perm muted - so there is a chance to undo :P

[10:27] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Amen, Gordon

[10:27] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: a group ban feature?

[10:28] {{User|Gordon Went}}: chat spam because of chat lag

[10:28] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: as ever

[10:28] {{User|Gordon Went}}: one sec, I'll grab the link to that

[10:28] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: too much ideas here lol chat lag

[10:28] {{User|Yann Dufaux}}: chat voice , in group = chat lag for other (i think ..)

[10:28] {{User|Gordon Went}}: yeah Blondin, an ability to have a banlist for a group to ban avatars from joining

[10:28] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: Blondin u can eject a group member - they can if the group is set to open enrol rejoin again

[10:28] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: is a pain in the *CENSORED*

[10:28] {{User|Gordon Went}}: yeah, what poid said

[10:28] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: so effectively you can not perm ban

[10:29] {{User|Ludo Merit}}: I ask

[10:29] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: from a group

[10:29] {{User|Gordon Went}}: this shouldn't be confused with the request some extremists have to be able to ban people from property
based on the groups they're in

[10:29] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: oh I get it poid

[10:29] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: yeah that Gordon is in my opinion not needed

[10:29] {{User|Gordon Went}}: something for you to clean up

[10:29] {{User|Gordon Went}}: HIPPOS

[10:29] {{User|Gordon Went}}: that is all :)

[10:29] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: *nods

[10:29] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: Apologise for throwing an aside in here, but does anyone use Slim?

[10:29] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: apologies even

[10:29] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: nope

[10:30] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: nope

[10:30] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: no

[10:30] {{User|Sitearm Madonna}} waves

[10:30] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Ciaran - I have used it a time or two, but not with much seriousness

[10:30] {{User|Ludo Merit}}: Slim?

[10:30] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: ㋡

[10:30] Ran Hienrichs is Online

[10:30] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: The only time i need a "SLim, well, I need something with more features, and use SparkleIM on my iPhone

[10:30] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: I have Slim , used it once or twice

[10:30] {{User|Taka Linden}}: has anyone used both subscribeomatic and hippo groups?

[10:30] {{User|Taka Linden}}: is one better than the other?

[10:30] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: it was helpful but wasn't widely adapted

[10:30] {{User|Taka Linden}}: or are they comparable

[10:30] {{User|Taka Linden}}: ?

[10:30] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: maybe a mas questionairre what do we need to communicate in SL - might help u guys get a better overview -
this is a small selection here - but is the same stuff and feedback I have heard for last 4 yrs

[10:30] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: no

[10:31] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Ive used subscribeomatics. Like much

[10:31] {{User|Gordon Went}}: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2825

[10:31] {{User|Ludo Merit}}: Subscribeomatic is free for small groups, so it is better

[10:31] {{User|Yann Dufaux}}: whats hippo group?

[10:31] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: hippo is a rental system

[10:31] {{User|Sitearm Madonna}}: we use the bot method

[10:31] {{User|Gordon Went}}: that's the ban list request, it also has a duplicate with a lot of votes at http://jira.secondlife.com/browse
/SVC-2826

[10:31] {{User|Sitearm Madonna}}: it avoids griefers banned from the region getting back into the group

[10:31] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: II've only ever used subscribe-o-matic as a customer, Hippo I've used as a merchant to send information,
they seem similar in purpose

[10:31] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: with additions to hippo u can do other stuff such a group subscribes etc

[10:32] {{User|Gordon Went}}: Ciaran, people shouldn't need to resort to bots to handle region and group control though, wouldn't you
agree?

[10:32] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: agreed Gordon

[10:32] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: Absolutely Gordon

[10:32] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: there are work arounds a SL /LL system to get what is needed

[10:32] {{User|Sitearm Madonna}}: well I still think users have more programming numbers on hand to invent things than poor overwhelmed LL
does

[10:32] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: plan and simple

[10:32] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: plane*#

[10:33] {{User|Sitearm Madonna}}: ty Bianca

[10:33] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: yw

[10:33] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: Thanks for the Jira Gordon

[10:34] {{User|Gordon Went}}: Blondin, I linked and closed that second one I just linked as a duplicate of the first, but both have a ton
of votes

[10:34] {{User|Mso Lambert}}: hippoGroups are nicely integrated with their other products, like Hippo vendor, but some of our customers
(I'm Subscribe-O-Matic creator) say they are overwhelmed by too many features :) Subscribe-O-Matic is also strictly opt-in only,
while hippoGroups allow group owners to add avatar keys/names manually to their database.

[10:34] {{User|Gordon Went}}: that sounds underhanded

[10:35] {{User|Gordon Went}}: what's to stop a hippogroups owner from adding the w-hat database with a bot and spamming everyone

[10:35] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: I think they discourage it, I dislike buying from a store and being spammed

[10:35] {{User|Gordon Went}}: and I use w-hat as an example because it can be easily pulled via bot if someone wanted to

[10:35] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: non Gordon it is possible but is not fail proof

[10:35] {{User|Gordon Went}}: <sigh> nothing ever is

[10:35] {{User|Taka Linden}}: How about voicemail? Has anyone tried it?

[10:36] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: true u can script by pass it so I am told ?

[10:36] Echo Linden is Offline

[10:36] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: I tested it on Avaline but decided listening to my own message was a tad too sad!

[10:36] {{User|Taka Linden}}: :-)

[10:36] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: awww

[10:36] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: I have not used it aside form testing. It really hasn't been a need for me.

[10:36] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: Taka, I don't use anything with voice and won't anytime in the next few years.

[10:36] {{User|Yann Dufaux}}: thanks Sietearm ㋡

[10:37] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: It's just irrelevant -- I write, I want want written records.

[10:37] {{User|Gordon Went}}: same here, I keep my RL and my SL seperate

[10:37] {{User|Taka Linden}}: Apparently, each month between 8,000 and 12,000 inworld calls go unanswered

[10:37] {{User|Gordon Went}}: and voice would break that

[10:37] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: I'm not here to sing.

[10:37] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Rihanna - yes, I find the written record to be of a lot of use in some of my projects.

[10:37] {{User|Taka Linden}}: To me, that feels like a lot of missed communication.

[10:37] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: what do u mean by that Taka?

[10:37] {{User|Gordon Went}}: Taka, do you have stats about how many IM's go unanswered? now that would be an interesting stat

[10:37] {{User|Taka Linden}}: and an opportunity for us to enhance the service to help people connect

[10:37] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: Voice is great as an option -- for presentations and concerts and such.

[10:38] {{User|Taka Linden}}: I don't have a similar stat on IMs, though it would be interesting.

[10:38] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: But I think the focus on getting us all to use it as a primary communication tool is misled.

[10:38] {{User|Mso Lambert}}: I'm more worried how many IM's end up in a void when offline IMs cap :)

[10:38] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: I like the option of voice, hardly ever use it but I like the option

[10:38] {{User|Ludo Merit}}: The thing about voice is that is so often has hum or static behind it

[10:38] {{User|Bluegin Yifu}}: What do you mean when you say IM's go unanswered?

[10:39] {{User|Gordon Went}}: I agree with MSO, capped IM's need to end, there has to be a better system

[10:39] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: So Taka - I am interested in why LL wud spend time and resource on Avaline when it maybe looks like skype
is being used more? how many calls were successfully connected ?

[10:39] {{User|Taka Linden}}: Gordon, please do explain. Are you asking about IMs that are capped, or simply not responded to?

[10:39] {{User|Sitearm Madonna}}: SL Voice is still about 90% reliable in a group of more than 3, where reliable means "it works for
everyone immediately first time" and that 10% not working is a time eater

[10:39] {{User|Taka Linden}}: I don't have an exact number for call success rate, but it is very high.

[10:39] {{User|Gordon Went}}: responding to MSO I meant capped by the system, currently they go to /dev/null which is unacceptable

[10:39] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: capped IM - just send to email - no more capped IM's

[10:40] {{User|Taka Linden}}: The reason we're building the AvaLine system is to lower the barriers to participation inworld.

[10:40] {{User|Ludo Merit}}: I already get so much email I can't read it

[10:40] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: How reliable is im to email and vice versa?

[10:40] {{User|Mso Lambert}}: I was always wondering, is there a technical / architectural reason for the IM cap system?

[10:40] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: I meant how many calls were made with Aveline and over what time period Taka :)

[10:40] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: Taka, AvaLine raises barriers. I don't even have a mic on my machine.

[10:40] {{User|Taka Linden}}: The ability to loop in people on phones is a big deal. One-to-one is only the first step.

[10:40] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: I get all my IMs to me email.

[10:40] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: ie, reliable for me

[10:41] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: ditto Blondin

[10:41] {{User|Lexie Linden}}: For me too

[10:41] {{User|Taka Linden}}: It's not a requirement.

[10:41] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: Are any of you having trouble with that?

[10:41] {{User|Gordon Went}}: Taka, it would require a huge undertaking and a total rewrite to how IM"s work but the only viable option I
can think of would be an inbox/outbox message style system, going to a halfway point between IM and email but within SL

[10:41] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: How do you know you get them all :p

[10:41] {{User|Sitearm Madonna}} idly wonders when the iPhone SL Client is coming out *coff*

[10:41] {{User|Ludo Merit}}: I don't want to get phone calls from people on line when I am off line. Off line is MY time.

[10:41] {{User|Gordon Went}}: incidentally, a bit off topic but IM to email still has huge issues with non english characters

[10:41] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: I never get why peeps say my im's r capped as u can see em all in email - maybe a blog on this option to
clarify is needed?

[10:41] {{User|Sitearm Madonna}}: ooh ooh I bet the IM work rewrite would go hand in hand with the Group rewrite

[10:41] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Sitearm. Then I'd never have to leave SL again.

[10:41] {{User|Marianne Mccann}} winks

[10:41] {{User|Mso Lambert}}: Sitearm, try SparkleIM for iPhone :)

[10:41] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: Adroid SL Client

[10:42] {{User|Sitearm Madonna}}: lol Mar

[10:42] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: Im not that popular Ciaran. Are you informed when you've reached your IM limit?

[10:42] {{User|Sitearm Madonna}}: yikes MSo I that I was kidding!

[10:42] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: no troubles to get emailed ims but sometimes Im gets messed when you login and crash or they show up
late when you relog a few times after...

[10:42] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: I use SparkleIM already. Not bad, all in all. Still pretty limited

[10:42] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: Poid some people don't like the option of im's to email

[10:42] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: U get told when you log in that IM's r capped

[10:42] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: "Your messages have been capped."

[10:42] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: Blondin yeah you get a message when you login

[10:42] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: but still you get all to email if you enable that feature

[10:42] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: Gordon, what is the problem with non-English speakers? Couldn't you argue that the language barrier itself
is the real problem?

[10:42] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: I see that from time to time

[10:42] {{User|Gordon Went}}: not sure how many people communicate with people who use Chinese, Japanese, Korean, middle eastern or slavic
languages but those have a tendency to break IM to email either recieving in your email or replying via the fast reply

[10:43] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: yes Blondin u could

[10:43] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: a standard sl translator would rock

[10:43] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: Also how long do you get to reply to an im from email? Is it a day or two?

[10:43] {{User|Gordon Went}}: Blondin, see above, there are technical issues, and it's particularly bad for the issues that top replying
due to bad encoding since you lose your single use reply key

[10:43] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: again a feature

[10:43] {{User|Taka Linden}}: a couple days

[10:44] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: I communicate with people all over the world

[10:44] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: daily

[10:44] {{User|Gordon Went}}: Taka, cleaning that up each day must be one heck of a chron job

[10:44] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: and they have a terrible time

[10:44] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: imagine having a translator option bolted on as a feature - and again cud be costed as a premium feature
....

[10:44] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: depending

[10:44] {{User|Bluegin Yifu}}: a standard issue translator for all in SL would be revolutionary. Would rock this world.

[10:44] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: yup

[10:44] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: that would open a HUGE comms door for SL

[10:44] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: Gordon is that issue still about with characters not counting the size correctly?

[10:44] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: we have 6000 arabic people coming in and we can't even give them a notecard

[10:45] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Not good, Lowri

[10:45] {{User|Bluegin Yifu}}: Can you imagine? It would be a world first, I think.

[10:45] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: ahahahah i feel like snow is coming brrrr

[10:45] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: lol

[10:45] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: ;)

[10:45] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: The Chinese are locked out of the voice do to ISPs

[10:45] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: wow Lowri! 6000!

[10:45] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: Mari what's this Sparkle Im?

[10:45] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: however not sure the processing power would cope - since even group messages is a pain - adding a
translator would push thing in the tech to burn out I suspect

[10:45] {{User|Gordon Went}}: Ciaran, I think there's a different one now, some characters will actually make the system discard the
reply, so say someone sends you an IM, it gets sent to your email you try to reply quoting that IM but that IM contains a strange
character, the reply doesn't go through because it got rejected by LL's server and you cannot try again because the reply code you get with your IM via email is a one time code

[10:46] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: so are some Middle East Countries

[10:46] {{User|Gordon Went}}: I'll try to find the JIRA

[10:46] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: we can get more, it it is stable

[10:46] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: we are handing out pdf's and textures on SL

[10:46] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: There is a PJira out there that Philip has going about the Snowglobe viewer and translations

[10:46] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: Hvae you seen it?

[10:46] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: the issue of arabian or simmilar characters is something discussed in another OH with Blue too

[10:46] {{User|Mso Lambert}}: Gordon, are you sure the IM session code is a one-time thing? I've successfully replied multiple times to a
same email IM before....

[10:46] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: nope Blondin

[10:47] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: really?

[10:47] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: Ok, let me go find the link

[10:47] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: really I been away 3 weeks not caught up yet

[10:47] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: you should all vote on it. Its a good feature to implement.

[10:47] {{User|Lexie Linden}}: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-93

[10:47] Douglas Rishmal is Online

[10:47] Cody Bracken is Online

[10:47] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: wicked ty

[10:47] {{User|Lexie Linden}}: ㋡

[10:48] {{User|Gordon Went}}: Haven't tried the client translator yet but it seems to be getting rave reviews on the sldev list

[10:48] {{User|Yann Dufaux}}: lexie i test this, but not now ㋡

[10:48] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: trying to follow all developments in SL is a task in itself - i wish the tech blog was more - how shall I
put it - compelling and featured more ?

[10:48] {{User|Lexie Linden}}: ok : )

[10:48] {{User|Yann Dufaux}}: well with the client translator its a very nice work!

[10:49] {{User|Taka Linden}}: How about SMS?

[10:49] {{User|Taka Linden}}: Would anyone use SMS in or out?

[10:49] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: i would love to get IMs in SMS form

[10:49] {{User|Ludo Merit}}: SMS?

[10:49] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: wud be cool

[10:49] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: :)

[10:49] {{User|Yann Dufaux}}: you can talk in any language, and the viewer translate in your setting pref ㋡

[10:49] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: yes, I have it on now

[10:49] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: SMS would interest me, but would i be able to send in or only reply?

[10:49] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: it tells me one person here speaks French

[10:49] {{User|Mso Lambert}}: I would love SMS in/out, even as a paid feature

[10:49] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: and translates

[10:50] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Blondin - yes, the option would be great. Or maybe from particular people (not all) for those who have a
capped amount of SMS traffic

[10:50] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: this would be a cool feature - depending on cost ? actually you can set up free sms and add a 'sponsors
text'

[10:50] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: I would think both Ci would be most useful

[10:50] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: so qualifies as marketing

[10:50] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: sponsor texts?

[10:50] {{User|Yann Dufaux}}: well, just don't work in ims, but with the privacy ruls i know te reason ㋡

[10:51] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: yes cell in the UK allow a limited free sms - orange for example and add at the bottom www,orange.co.uk

[10:51] {{User|Gordon Went}}: sponsored texting service? isn't LL already getting sued, seems like this would be just asking for someone
to sue them again if they bring a marketing firm into SL

[10:51] {{User|Gordon Went}}: targetted advertising and all that

[10:51] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: i ment add www.secondlife.com to the free SMS :)

[10:51] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: See that's the problem with im to email, I can't get hold of my minions easily, whereas if I could do it via
SMS that would be superb

[10:51] {{User|Gordon Went}}: I love the idea of SMS but the idea of sponsored SMS no matter how you did it would cause problems I think

[10:52] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: not another mobile sponsor - however - that is not impossible idea ....

[10:52] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: grab at & T :)

[10:52] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: investors - might bite as something like this - know knows

[10:52] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: who*

[10:53] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: why problems business is business?

[10:53] {{User|Taka Linden}}: How about your.avatar@secondlife.com?

[10:53] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: investors cud allow cash growth to invest in new tech

[10:53] {{User|Gordon Went}}: and users are incredibly irrational

[10:53] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: That has potential Taka

[10:53] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: Btw talking about communication... a thing I would love to know is if there is anymore any Second
Life Radio...

[10:53] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Taka - I would *love* to have that

[10:53] {{User|Taka Linden}}: Would a personal email alias be helpful for folks, or just one more email address?

[10:53] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: that was some other feedback we got from the blog

[10:54] {{User|Mso Lambert}}: I've used my.avatar@gmail.com for quite a while now, not sure about yet another email address, unless it came
with extra integrated features :)

[10:54] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: depends taka what benefits it had - how big a mail box and features

[10:54] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: Another "nice for premiums" feature -- email address for you rav.

[10:54] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: gmail rocks currently

[10:54] {{User|Taka Linden}}: OK

[10:54] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: your av, even.

[10:54] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Taka - for me it would be a useful addition. It would help, IMO, add a level of professionalism to those
of us doing business in here.

[10:54] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: I agree

[10:54] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: I agree with Mari on that point

[10:54] {{User|Gordon Went}}: Taka, it would b ecool, I could set all my SLX email spam to go in a loop from my LL email to my Gordon
Wendt Gmail account back to my LL email and so on

[10:54] {{User|Ludo Merit}}: Would it be one more email address, or really one more email client? I have enough trouble using the one I've
got

[10:54] {{User|Gordon Went}}: SL email rather, not LL email

[10:55] {{User|Taka Linden}}: depends on how we'd implement it, I suppose

[10:55] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: i was going to say Gordon!!!

[10:55] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: well u cud attach the second life one to ya gmail and have the best of both worlds :)

[10:55] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: a secondlife email addy and gmail features

[10:55] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: I would prefer it be usable as a forward to my non-SL account or elsewhere though, rather than a separate
e-mail system (web mail, etc) I'd have to read.

[10:55] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: Also yesterday people were saying they'd like to be able to im in via a standard messenger such as Yim or
MSN. Not sure how feasible that is

[10:55] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: *assumes the position

[10:56] {{User|Taka Linden}}: Would IM interoperability interest people?

[10:56] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Naw, I prefer my IMs integrated with the client

[10:56] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: yes Taka

[10:56] {{User|Taka Linden}}: or Skype interoperability?

[10:56] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Taka - yes

[10:56] {{User|Gordon Went}}: and I'd have no qualms about doing that, speaking of communication, you should have a quiet word with the PR
team and tell them to stop sending advert emails unless we specifically op in

[10:56] {{User|Gordon Went}}: none of this opt out bullshit

[10:56] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: and yes

[10:56] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: yes deffo skype

[10:56] {{User|Sitearm Madonna}}: @Gordon I agree -

[10:56] {{User|Sitearm Madonna}}: :)

[10:56] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: I've seen people ask for better lip syncing as well. Don't really know if that would count as a
communication tool

[10:56] {{User|Taka Linden}}: Would there be any issues related to Skype having some real names?

[10:56] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: skype is the leading online comms of choice so why not utilize that ?

[10:56] {{User|Gordon Went}}: This is another statement I'm willing to say I think there's wide community support for

[10:56] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Gordon - surely you wanted to know all about that fashion show

[10:57] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: give a choice regarding names Taka

[10:57] {{User|Gordon Went}}: Taka, umm..... yes

[10:57] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: Hi Joao

[10:57] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: {{User|Marianne Mccann}} has a Skype account /me winks

[10:57] {{User|Taka Linden}}: OK

[10:57] joao Mastroianni: Hello everyone :-))

[10:57] {{User|Taka Linden}}: This is great.

[10:57] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: bussiness and personal - RL name or avatar - choices are important

[10:58] {{User|Taka Linden}}: I really appreciate the input.

[10:58] {{User|Gordon Went}}: Marianne, of course, I'm actually one of the largest fashion designers in SL in disguise, I just left my
high heels in my inventory for today :)

[10:58] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: so does {{User|Lowri Mills}}

[10:58] {{User|Gordon Went}}: lol

[10:58] joao Mastroianni: Bianca :)

[10:58] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: The radio when I started was a good way to communicate from LL side to all or from a sort of official
channel...

[10:58] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: radio SL wud be cool

[10:58] {{User|Bluegin Yifu}}: Are you talking about making these communication tools part of SL or do you mean everyone within SL should
get these also? Then, do we need separate accounts for our RL and SL selves? Gets confusing and I do not know how many casual
players will do this.

[10:58] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: as a official channel

[10:58] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Yes, Radio Linden. That's one old product

[10:58] {{User|Gordon Went}}: Blondin, people are also asking for it to be on by default and have the option to turn it off hidden so deep
as to make it essentially mandatory, that doesn't mean it isn't a horrible idea

[10:59] {{User|Gordon Went}}: lip sync should be the lowest priority possible

[10:59] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: Radio and podcasting are both nice passive channels to reach people who

[10:59]  {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: good easy comms - unless yr non english speaking

[10:59] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: Shame that and the old info boards are so, well, unused.

[10:59] {{User|Gordon Went}}: in my opinion

[10:59] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: :)

[10:59] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: with tutorials on it would be good

[10:59] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}: wouldn't necessarily hunt up the blogs, and they've both been abandoned.

[10:59] {{User|Gordon Went}}: Blondin, I know we have like 1 minute left but are you guys going to do something about making the new boards actually usable?

[10:59] {{User|Gordon Went}}: the new forum boards I mean

[11:00] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: which boards Gordon?

[11:00] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: k

[11:00] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: yeah web site needs a tweak in functionality

[11:00] {{User|Bluegin Yifu}}: Is our purpose to discuss how LL can communicate to residents or how we can all communicate within SL? The
goal is to communicate with SL, isn't it? Not how do we communicate external to SL.

[11:00] {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}: yes... and as far as I could see .. listening in english is good to improve so .. Radio feature is a good tutorial way

[11:00] {{User|Gordon Went}}: the new commerce board, eventually to be the whole forum, currently they are incredibly unusable, IF YOU GO LIVE WITH MOVING EVERYTHING OVER YOU WILL LOSE RESIDENTS

[11:00] {{User|Gordon Went}}: sorry for the caps but that needed to be shouted

[11:00] {{User|Bluegin Yifu}}: *WITHIN SL

[11:01] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: hey all, Taka and I need to go.

[11:01] {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}} dittos Gordon.

[11:01] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: But this was a good turn out

[11:01] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: Lots of useful info

[11:01] {{User|Lexie Linden}}: Great discussion ㋡

[11:01] {{User|Sitearm Madonna}}: shall you post a summary ?

[11:01] {{User|Taka Linden}}: Thanks again, everyone.

[11:01] {{User|Gordon Went}}: and of course I get ignored by the Lindens

[11:01] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: Cheers Blondin, shall we just camp here till you come back? ;)

[11:01] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: You're welcome! :-)

[11:01] {{User|Torben Trautman}} waves

[11:01] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: I will clean up the chat log

[11:01] {{User|Torben Trautman}}: bye all

[11:01] {{User|Sitearm Madonna}}: on the blog or sumpin :) ?

[11:01] {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}: ty all

[11:01] {{User|Marianne Mccann}}: See ya later today, Blondin

[11:01] {{User|Blondin Linden}}: and have a transcript for those who ask

[11:01] {{User|Lowri Mills}}: Thank you, for the time and discussion

[11:01] {{User|Taka Linden}}: Gordon, thanks for joining!

[11:01] {{User|Ciaran Laval}}: Thanks Taka and Lexie

[11:01] {{User|Taka Linden}}: really good insights

User:Blondin Linden/Commtools 16SEP09

2009-09-17T02:47:17Z

Gordon Wendt: bolding timestamps

Office Hours Meeting Notes 16-Sep-2009

Topic: Communication Tools

Participants (21):
* {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}
* {{User|Blondin Linden}}
* {{User|Bluegin Yifu}}
* {{User|Ciaran Laval}}
* {{User|Daniel Voyager}}
* {{User|Ella Mcmahon}}
* {{User|Gordon Went}}
* {{User|Joao Miastroianni}}
* {{User|Kris Darmoset}}
* {{User|Lexie Linden}}
* {{User|Lowri Mills}}
* {{User|Ludo Merit}}
* {{User|Marianne Mccann}}
* {{User|Mso Lambert}}
* {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}
* {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}
* {{User|Sitearm Madonna}}
* {{User|Surfaqua Oh}}
* {{User|Taka Linden}}
* {{User|Torben Trautman}}
* {{User|Yann Dufaux}}

[10:03] Blondin Linden: Well, I suppose we can begin. Thanks all for coming! This meeting was a result of some of the feedback we got from the Avaline blog post

[10:03] Ciaran Laval: :P Gordon

[10:04] Gordon Wendt: was the feedback that most users wanted nothing to do with it and that LL was wasting their time?

[10:04] Blondin Linden: I don't know if you all had a chance to read it, but Taka here was interested in engaging outside of the comments and getting a wider view of how we can better improve commnication tools in SL.

[10:04] Blondin Linden: Something along those lines Gordon :)

[10:05] Taka Linden: Yes. How many of you are using AvaLine now?

[10:05] Gordon Wendt: I think most users want groups to work, IM's to work, and for commiunication via notecard not to be the only reliable option

[10:05] Taka Linden: or Skype?

[10:05] Gordon Wendt: or SLVoice? nobody uses that either

[10:05] Gordon Wendt: groups being group IM's in this context

[10:05] Ciaran Laval: I didn't extend my Avaline usage beyond the beta test

[10:05] Lowri Mills: we use SL Voice

[10:05] Ludo Merit: Using Skype, and SL voice. I sing a capella in it

[10:06] Daniel Voyager: I use Skype mostly.

[10:06] Blondin Linden: I think a lot of the feedback we got was that Skype was the prefered method of communication

[10:06] BlueGin Yifu: I do not know what the Avaline blog is; so I guess that's the first thing I have to say about communications. hehe

[10:06] Lowri Mills: we are finding firewalls in the middle east and some Chinese ISPs that block it

[10:06] Blondin Linden: I'll find the link Blue Gin

[10:06] Ciaran Laval: Avaline might be useful for some very big companies but it falls flat for the average user

[10:06] Marianne McCann: I beta tested Avaline.

[10:06] Gordon Wendt: even if some people do use it, because so many people used/use skype it seems like there was a lot of
duplicated effort that only achieved splitting the community into using two incompatible systems

[10:06] Daniel Voyager: Twitter and Plurk seems to be getting popular these days. :p

[10:07] Daniel Voyager: with SL

[10:07] Lexie Linden: good point Daniel

[10:07] Taka Linden: Do people use Twitter and Plurk for the same kind of messaging as Group Chat?

[10:07] Ciaran Laval: Do you guys have an Avaline number for support calls?

[10:07] Taka Linden: they seem like quite different tools to me

[10:08] Blondin Linden: https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/features/blog/2009/08/19/bye-bye-beta-avaline-dial-an-avatar-is-now-
available-to-all-avatars

[10:08] SunnyBoy Arashi: i do not have , don't know so much about it

[10:08] Taka Linden: As for AvaLine as a way to reach support, it is not currently an option.

[10:08] Ludo Merit: It would never have occurred to me to use twitter for chat

[10:08] Poid Mahovlich: Twitter and Plurk can virus a message much faster

[10:08] Gordon Wendt: having to watch both twitter and plurk is a pain

[10:08] Marianne McCann: Agreed, Poid

[10:08] Rihanna Laasonen: Why is faster better?

[10:08] Ciaran Laval: Ah thanks Taka, I think that would be a good way of showcasing Avaline if you did offer that as an option.

[10:08] Taka Linden: Good idea.

[10:08] Poid Mahovlich: Gordon so get a tool to view all at once - ire friend feed

[10:08] Blondin Linden: I use Plurk. I find it a great tool to pass links and news about whats going on

[10:09] Ludo Merit: I won't use anything I have to pay more for, such as Avaline

[10:09] Blondin Linden: I like the Karma :)

[10:09] Biancaluce Robbiani: there are some abrogators Gordon for that?

[10:09] Gordon Wendt: Taka, of course not, that would be proof that LL has confidence in avaline as a platform and you can't have
that :)

[10:09] Rihanna Laasonen: Notices sent to e-mail give us an easy record to refer back to -- if they just worked.

[10:09] Gordon Wendt: *that

[10:09] Poid Mahovlich: yeah avaline is a needless expense imho

[10:09] Gordon Wendt: second what Rihanna just said

[10:09] Taka Linden: Actually, the support team has a very specific set of needs, and AvaLine was not designed to serve those "use
cases"

[10:10] Taka Linden: though it definitely could be helpful in some circumstances

[10:10] Ciaran Laval: Avaline is useful for ambitious business within SL, you can offer worldwide phone access

[10:10] Petra Linden is Online

[10:10] Poid Mahovlich: what was it's parameters specifically then Taka?

[10:10] Marianne McCann: I've yet to find a good use of AvaLine with my clients, at least not any that Skype isn't already handling

[10:10] Gordon Wendt: As I said before though, I think there is a pretty strong consensus among users that they don't want new
communications tools, they want the existing tools to do what they're advertised to do and supposed to do

[10:11] Poid Mahovlich: *nods

[10:11] BlueGin Yifu: agree

[10:11] Lowri Mills: yes

[10:11] Rihanna Laasonen: ?me nods vigorously.

[10:11] Ludo Merit nods too

[10:11] Taka Linden: This first edition of AvaLine is intended simply to allow someone inworld to stay in touch with people who
are not online

[10:11] Gordon Wendt: Can I assume that there is an internal team at LL that handles comm. tools?

[10:11] Ciaran Laval: I don't mind new tools if they offer better functionality than the current tools, group chat and notices is
rather clunky

[10:11] Lexie Linden: Hi Yann and Surf

[10:11] Surfaqua Oh: hello

[10:12] MSo Lambert: Hi all

[10:12] Taka Linden: Do any of you run inworld businesses?

[10:12] Lowri Mills: and we need notecards that read arabic

[10:12] Lowri Mills: yes

[10:12] SunnyBoy Arashi: sorry all gota go some one need help

[10:12] Lowri Mills: I do

[10:12] Marianne McCann: Taka - what would be the second edition of AvaLine, then?

[10:12] Biancaluce Robbiani: hya Surf, Yann

[10:12] Gordon Wendt: Ciaran, if they could rewrite and supersede old tools in functionality I'd agree

[10:12] Lowri Mills: languagelab.com

[10:12] SunnyBoy Arashi: c ya next time

[10:12] Poid Mahovlich: ok - so avaline falls a little short as tools already exists that work and are better no offense

[10:12] Ludo Merit: Small one

[10:12] Marianne McCann: Ya, that

[10:12] Rihanna Laasonen: Yes, and IM works fine for my small business. Avaline has no

[10:12] Rihanna Laasonen: purpose for me.

[10:13] Taka Linden: Future versions of AvaLine will expand the inworld audience, so a caller could participate in group
conversations, not just one-to-one voice chat.

[10:13] Rihanna Laasonen: Better IM would be nice, but I've no need for voice-related anything.

[10:13] Lowri Mills: we use SL Voice

[10:13] Lowri Mills: and group chat

[10:13] Poid Mahovlich: does avaline work for anyone you know of ? I'd be interested to hear a positive also on this

[10:13] Blondin Linden: So if you all could create a wish list of things you wanted fixed, wanted to see, what would you include?

[10:13] Gordon Wendt: Taka, yes, a business and a group utilizing Mentor resource.

[10:14] Ludo Merit: That would come in handy, Taka, though there's a program out there to do that already, which, unfortunately
for me, costs money.

[10:14] Taka Linden: Some of the biggest praise has come from the education community, where non-PC access to people inworld is
proving important.

[10:14] Marianne McCann: Voice is okay, but a lot of my clients seem to want to use text, mainly for a written record.

[10:14] Gordon Wendt: albeit a fairly quiet one

[10:14] Ciaran Laval: Ok look im's get capped at 25, that needs fixing somehow

[10:14] Poid Mahovlich: first of main connective tool is the SL blog - which is improved - but still yet not fully utilized

[10:14] Gordon Wendt: Blondin, Group Chat, Group Notices, IM Chat, Inventory, Teleporting, Pie

[10:14] Poid Mahovlich: off*

[10:14] Ciaran Laval: or some other number, it's around 25 I think, or is it size based?

[10:14] Biancaluce Robbiani: as I could see many residents do not like voice chat so far... but any change in that direction is
glad IMHO

[10:14] Lowri Mills: We teach English and other languages, we need voice

[10:14] Ludo Merit: If you come up with an equally good group phone feature that costs less I might use it eventually

[10:15] Poid Mahovlich: oh we talking inworld?>

[10:15] Rihanna Laasonen: In-world/out-world IM that's better than replying to previous IM's-to-email.

[10:15] BlueGin Yifu: Is the main issue here what tools to use in communicating? Or is the issue how to have clearer
communications? Or all of this?

[10:15] Rihanna Laasonen: Group notices that work, and more groups.

[10:15] Biancaluce Robbiani: Educators too are split in 2 opposite points of view

[10:15] Lowri Mills: yes, our notices didn't work today

[10:15] Rihanna Laasonen: The ability to NOT communicate -- to turn off group chat without blocking local communication.

[10:15] Poid Mahovlich: yeah I'd be happy if the basics worked - then move to additions and so on

[10:15] Yann Dufaux: burned :p

[10:15] Taka Linden: Lowri Mills: Please tell me more about how Notices didn't work for you today.

[10:16] Blondin Linden: yes, I agree the 25 group limit tends to be annoying when you've maxed out

[10:16] Biancaluce Robbiani: Communication in sharing same document would a big thing too

[10:16] Poid Mahovlich: however again I do feel the main blog is still not up 2 speed in terms of actually use

[10:16] Biancaluce Robbiani: thing*

[10:16] Lowri Mills: we had a teacher out with the flu, and she sent 3 notices , none of them worked

[10:16] Lowri Mills: but those around 4am did work

[10:16] Yann Dufaux: aw, more of 25 group could be very great ㋡

[10:16] Poid Mahovlich: as ever

[10:16] Taka Linden: Hmmm. Did she tell customer support?

[10:16] Poid Mahovlich: that old chestnut

[10:16] Lowri Mills: it just happened

[10:17] Marianne McCann: I'm *always* maxed out on groups. The current group/IM framework may have worked in 2003, but it's pretty
overworked in 2009

[10:17] Lowri Mills: it happens on an off

[10:17] Ludo Merit: Haven't we mentors been asking for more than 25 for years? There must be a reason why not or we'd have 'em.

[10:17] Taka Linden: How many groups would you like?

[10:17] Taka Linden: if you could have any number?

[10:17] Taka Linden: How many do you need?

[10:17] Gordon Wendt: Blondin, there are several proposed solutions for that, LL just has to take the initiative, the most popular
and the most realistic to implement I think is the proposal to change it to two types of groups

[10:17] Poid Mahovlich: realistically another 10 - no need to be greedy

[10:17] Ciaran Laval: as manay as I can get

[10:17] Gordon Wendt: which would lessen load enough to allow more groups

[10:17] Yann Dufaux: Taka, 35 of 40 groups ㋡

[10:17] Daniel Voyager: 35+

[10:18] Biancaluce Robbiani: yes Ludo... I agree... more than 25 is a big tech mess I guess

[10:18] Lowri Mills: I may not need so many groups if I had more roles and different tools

[10:18] Marianne McCann: To be honest, given the current method of groups for announcements, for build access, etc, I would be
*comfortable* with 35-50, but would prefer not having a cap

[10:18] Poid Mahovlich: I assumed groups was a no go - due to computing and processing ? it doesn't work not - so with a group
increase the problems would also increase - so it pie in the sky

[10:18] Lowri Mills: where you could have different roles receive notices

[10:18] Yann Dufaux: but with the possibility to fusion the parallel group

[10:18] Taka Linden: The reason there is a group limit at all is to manage system overload. But we do hear loudly and clearly that
25 is too low for many residents.

[10:18] Poid Mahovlich: now*

[10:18] Gordon Wendt: Ludo, agreed, we have 1 official and what 3 or 4 unofficial but necessary groups?

[10:18] Ludo Merit: Well, if people would use groups more wisely, I might be able to get along with 25, but people are using
groups for things they could use subscriber lists for, and using multiple groups instead of roles in groups

[10:18] Yann Dufaux: lite a hotmail emails fusion ㋡

[10:18] Yann Dufaux: like*

[10:19] Marianne McCann: True, Poid. The whole *system* needs an update. It's pretty fundamentally limited

[10:19] Ludo Merit: But there's a reason for that. If we could send notices to a group role instead of the whole group, we'd need
fewer groups

[10:19] Gordon Wendt: Taka, are you hearing our proposed solutions on the JIRA to lower that load?

[10:19] Poid Mahovlich: Taka can a new work about like subscribe o matic be implemented ? and broadly used?

[10:19] Taka Linden: What percentage of group messages are really one-way messages from businesses trying to promote their
offerings?

[10:19] Biancaluce Robbiani: Imagine to have to handle connections for over 25 groups for each of us..... sorting residents on line etc .. a big bunch of data may cause big crashes

[10:19] Ciaran Laval: I'm with Gordon on moving to a two kinds of group system, how many land groups I need is not the same as asking how many groups I'd like to receive notices from

[10:19] Taka Linden: subscribeomatic is interesting

[10:19] Rihanna Laasonen: Most of the useful message are, IMO.

[10:19] Marianne McCann: This is not a criticism, simply a note that SL has grown to a point where it needs a more scalable system
in place for that

[10:19] Guy Linden is Online

[10:19] Taka Linden: does anyone here use subscribeomatic?

[10:20] Ludo Merit: Yes

[10:20] Yann Dufaux: if i have a group to support and other customer update, i need to did a fusion of group to send notices or proposal one times for the two group ㋡

[10:20] Marianne McCann: Ciaran - I've long advocated creating a build/script access list into the estate or parcel information.

[10:20] Biancaluce Robbiani: we should have a free "subscibing system" for example

[10:20] Ciaran Laval: I'm in some subscribe-o-matic groups and I've used Hipp groups which is a similar thing

[10:20] Blondin Linden: Gordon, Ciaran, is there a Jira for that?

[10:20] Marianne McCann: Do away with needing a "rez group" entirely

[10:20] Ludo Merit: It's free so I can use it.

[10:20] Gordon Wendt: yes, one second and I'll try to find it

[10:20] Poid Mahovlich: or set up an out of world system perhaps - maybe for premium users ? so they can have as many groups as they like - a separate connections area which is web based ..... outside box soltions

[10:20] Gordon Wendt: unless Ciaran has a link handy

[10:20] Ciaran Laval: Hippo Groups

[10:21] Ludo Merit: Cost money

[10:21] Biancaluce Robbiani: is it free?

[10:21] Ciaran Laval: No Gordon, unfortunately I don't have them handy

[10:21] Ciaran Laval: Marianne that's a good proposal on scripted access in the parcel

[10:21] Poid Mahovlich: I know many would be happy to pay an extra premium for additional groups offers

[10:22] Marianne McCann: Ciaran - thanks. It would cut several groups from my must have list

[10:22] Lowri Mills: now that is a good idea

[10:22] Blondin Linden: Poid, that would be a neat feature for premium accounts, an incentive perhaps to upgrade

[10:22] Lowri Mills: I would pay for extra roles, groups, etc

[10:22] Rihanna Laasonen: More groups seems an obvious solution to the "How to make premium worthwhile" question.

[10:22] Poid Mahovlich: yus exactly

[10:22] Gordon Wendt: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2833 is the general issue and http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2816 is the specific issue for the separate types

[10:22] Poid Mahovlich: do in in RL bussiness - so do it here

[10:22] BlueGin Yifu: Group chat can be so annoying. Subscribeomatic is good for most big groups and shows.

[10:22] Marianne McCann: Ciaran: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-12078

[10:23] Poid Mahovlich: *nods at BlueGin

[10:23] Ciaran Laval: Cheers Mari

[10:23] Marianne McCann grins

[10:23] Gordon Wendt: that's another one that could be implemented, none of them are exclusively viable so all or some of them could be implemented it seems

[10:23] Rihanna Laasonen: We really need the granularity on which group chat to hear.

[10:24] Taka Linden: Got it.

[10:24] Poid Mahovlich: but make a subscrobe o matic a standard SL feature or a premium one

[10:24] Biancaluce Robbiani: if we suppose that is not possible to increase inworld group numbers... why don't offer a
subscriptomatic official mechanism?

[10:24] Taka Linden: So opt-in group messages?

[10:24] Poid Mahovlich: ha exactly Bianca

[10:24]  BlueGin Yifu: yes

[10:24] Gordon Wendt: having scriptable group invites would be a good way to deal with subscribe-o-matic type experience

[10:24] Rihanna Laasonen: Opt-in, that we can turn on or off easily.

[10:24] Lowri Mills: I like the feature where we can now add the person's card into group chat, instead of making another group

[10:24] Ciaran Laval: Opt-in is always the nicer solution

[10:24] Gordon Wendt: if they raised groups

[10:24] Rihanna Laasonen: And make sure to handle notices and chat separately.

[10:24] Taka Linden: OK. This is great feedback.

[10:24] Marianne McCann: true, Gordon

[10:24] Poid Mahovlich: opt in with control even - imagine

[10:25] Poid Mahovlich: its a basic bolt one in actual fact

[10:25] Poid Mahovlich: on*

[10:25] Ludo Merit: My problem with turning off groups is that they don't come back on the way they used to, so if I turn one off
I don't hear it again unless I remember to turn it on.

[10:25] Poid Mahovlich: yeah a setting for that wud be good

[10:25] Poid Mahovlich: again to give options and control

[10:26] Poid Mahovlich: group chat on/off/

[10:26] Gordon Wendt: llGroupInvite, llGroupEject, should be implemented, group invite would send a standard group invite and
would have to be only usable in touch and have a mute button to prevent spamming

[10:26] BlueGin Yifu: great idea, poid

[10:26] Marianne McCann: Agreed

[10:26] Gordon Wendt: don't have a JIRA for that but would be good

[10:26] Ciaran Laval: That would also cut down on the need for group inviter bots

[10:26] Poid Mahovlich: eject how many times do u see a group chat spammer muted - who only relogs and is right back at it

[10:26] Yann Dufaux: protection against flood of voice/group request ㋡

[10:27] Blondin Linden: Good point Ciaran. You know how I'm such a fan of bots

[10:27] Gordon Wendt: oh, group banning is a feature that is desperately needed

[10:27] Ciaran Laval: Yes Blondin, we've noticed ;)

[10:27] Torben Trautman: hi there

[10:27] Gordon Wendt: you should be able to ban people from groups

[10:27] Yann Dufaux: hi Torben ㋡

[10:27] Gordon Wendt: we need a group ban feature

[10:27] Biancaluce Robbiani: some other viewers )I've heard) allow ppl to take down all friend list and other data and they use it
for spam purposes (that is the reverse face of the medal)

[10:27] Poid Mahovlich: a perm on/ off mute for group and individuals is also useful - but would have to show the avatar who is
perm muted - so there is a chance to undo :P

[10:27] Marianne McCann: Amen, Gordon

[10:27] Blondin Linden: a group ban feature?

[10:28] Gordon Wendt: chat spam because of chat lag

[10:28] Poid Mahovlich: as ever

[10:28] Gordon Wendt: one sec, I'll grab the link to that

[10:28] Biancaluce Robbiani: too much ideas here lol chat lag

[10:28] Yann Dufaux: chat voice , in group = chat lag for other (i think ..)

[10:28] Gordon Wendt: yeah Blondin, an ability to have a banlist for a group to ban avatars from joining

[10:28] Poid Mahovlich: Blondin u can eject a group member - they can if the group is set to open enrol rejoin again

[10:28] Poid Mahovlich: is a pain in the *CENSORED*

[10:28] Gordon Wendt: yeah, what poid said

[10:28] Poid Mahovlich: so effectively you can not perm ban

[10:29] Ludo Merit: I ask

[10:29] Poid Mahovlich: from a group

[10:29] Gordon Wendt: this shouldn't be confused with the request some extremists have to be able to ban people from property
based on the groups they're in

[10:29] Blondin Linden: oh I get it poid

[10:29] Poid Mahovlich: yeah that Gordon is in my opinion not needed

[10:29] Gordon Wendt: something for you to clean up

[10:29] Gordon Wendt: HIPPOS

[10:29] Gordon Wendt: that is all :)

[10:29] Poid Mahovlich: *nods

[10:29] Ciaran Laval: Apologise for throwing an aside in here, but does anyone use Slim?

[10:29] Ciaran Laval: apologies even

[10:29] Poid Mahovlich: nope

[10:30] Lowri Mills: nope

[10:30] Biancaluce Robbiani: no

[10:30] Sitearm Madonna waves

[10:30] Marianne McCann: Ciaran - I have used it a time or two, but not with much seriousness

[10:30] Ludo Merit: Slim?

[10:30] Biancaluce Robbiani: ㋡

[10:30] Ran Hienrichs is Online

[10:30] Marianne McCann: The only time i need a "SLim, well, I need something with more features, and use SparkleIM on my iPhone

[10:30] Blondin Linden: I have Slim , used it once or twice

[10:30] Taka Linden: has anyone used both subscribeomatic and hippo groups?

[10:30] Taka Linden: is one better than the other?

[10:30] Blondin Linden: it was helpful but wasn't widely adapted

[10:30] Taka Linden: or are they comparable

[10:30] Taka Linden: ?

[10:30] Poid Mahovlich: maybe a mas questionairre what do we need to communicate in SL - might help u guys get a better overview -
this is a small selection here - but is the same stuff and feedback I have heard for last 4 yrs

[10:30] Lowri Mills: no

[10:31] Marianne McCann: Ive used subscribeomatics. Like much

[10:31] Gordon Wendt: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2825

[10:31] Ludo Merit: Subscribeomatic is free for small groups, so it is better

[10:31] Yann Dufaux: whats hippo group?

[10:31] Poid Mahovlich: hippo is a rental system

[10:31] Sitearm Madonna: we use the bot method

[10:31] Gordon Wendt: that's the ban list request, it also has a duplicate with a lot of votes at http://jira.secondlife.com/browse
/SVC-2826

[10:31] Sitearm Madonna: it avoids griefers banned from the region getting back into the group

[10:31] Ciaran Laval: II've only ever used subscribe-o-matic as a customer, Hippo I've used as a merchant to send information,
they seem similar in purpose

[10:31] Poid Mahovlich: with additions to hippo u can do other stuff such a group subscribes etc

[10:32] Gordon Wendt: Ciaran, people shouldn't need to resort to bots to handle region and group control though, wouldn't you
agree?

[10:32] Poid Mahovlich: agreed Gordon

[10:32] Ciaran Laval: Absolutely Gordon

[10:32] Poid Mahovlich: there are work arounds a SL /LL system to get what is needed

[10:32] Sitearm Madonna: well I still think users have more programming numbers on hand to invent things than poor overwhelmed LL
does

[10:32] Poid Mahovlich: plan and simple

[10:32] Poid Mahovlich: plane*#

[10:33] Sitearm Madonna: ty Bianca

[10:33] Biancaluce Robbiani: yw

[10:33] Blondin Linden: Thanks for the Jira Gordon

[10:34] Gordon Wendt: Blondin, I linked and closed that second one I just linked as a duplicate of the first, but both have a ton
of votes

[10:34] MSo Lambert: hippoGroups are nicely integrated with their other products, like Hippo vendor, but some of our customers
(I'm Subscribe-O-Matic creator) say they are overwhelmed by too many features :) Subscribe-O-Matic is also strictly opt-in only,
while hippoGroups allow group owners to add avatar keys/names manually to their database.

[10:34] Gordon Wendt: that sounds underhanded

[10:35] Gordon Wendt: what's to stop a hippogroups owner from adding the w-hat database with a bot and spamming everyone

[10:35] Ciaran Laval: I think they discourage it, I dislike buying from a store and being spammed

[10:35] Gordon Wendt: and I use w-hat as an example because it can be easily pulled via bot if someone wanted to

[10:35] Poid Mahovlich: non Gordon it is possible but is not fail proof

[10:35] Gordon Wendt: <sigh> nothing ever is

[10:35] Taka Linden: How about voicemail? Has anyone tried it?

[10:36] Poid Mahovlich: true u can script by pass it so I am told ?

[10:36] Echo Linden is Offline

[10:36] Ciaran Laval: I tested it on Avaline but decided listening to my own message was a tad too sad!

[10:36] Taka Linden: :-)

[10:36] Poid Mahovlich: awww

[10:36] Marianne McCann: I have not used it aside form testing. It really hasn't been a need for me.

[10:36] Rihanna Laasonen: Taka, I don't use anything with voice and won't anytime in the next few years.

[10:36] Yann Dufaux: thanks Sietearm ㋡

[10:37] Rihanna Laasonen: It's just irrelevant -- I write, I want want written records.

[10:37] Gordon Wendt: same here, I keep my RL and my SL seperate

[10:37] Taka Linden: Apparently, each month between 8,000 and 12,000 inworld calls go unanswered

[10:37] Gordon Wendt: and voice would break that

[10:37] Rihanna Laasonen: I'm not here to sing.

[10:37] Marianne McCann: Rihanna - yes, I find the written record to be of a lot of use in some of my projects.

[10:37] Taka Linden: To me, that feels like a lot of missed communication.

[10:37] Poid Mahovlich: what do u mean by that Taka?

[10:37] Gordon Wendt: Taka, do you have stats about how many IM's go unanswered? now that would be an interesting stat

[10:37] Taka Linden: and an opportunity for us to enhance the service to help people connect

[10:37] Rihanna Laasonen: Voice is great as an option -- for presentations and concerts and such.

[10:38] Taka Linden: I don't have a similar stat on IMs, though it would be interesting.

[10:38] Rihanna Laasonen: But I think the focus on getting us all to use it as a primary communication tool is misled.

[10:38] MSo Lambert: I'm more worried how many IM's end up in a void when offline IMs cap :)

[10:38] Ciaran Laval: I like the option of voice, hardly ever use it but I like the option

[10:38] Ludo Merit: The thing about voice is that is so often has hum or static behind it

[10:38] BlueGin Yifu: What do you mean when you say IM's go unanswered?

[10:39] Gordon Wendt: I agree with MSO, capped IM's need to end, there has to be a better system

[10:39] Poid Mahovlich: So Taka - I am interested in why LL wud spend time and resource on Avaline when it maybe looks like skype
is being used more? how many calls were successfully connected ?

[10:39] Taka Linden: Gordon, please do explain. Are you asking about IMs that are capped, or simply not responded to?

[10:39] Sitearm Madonna: SL Voice is still about 90% reliable in a group of more than 3, where reliable means "it works for
everyone immediately first time" and that 10% not working is a time eater

[10:39] Taka Linden: I don't have an exact number for call success rate, but it is very high.

[10:39] Gordon Wendt: responding to MSO I meant capped by the system, currently they go to /dev/null which is unacceptable

[10:39] Poid Mahovlich: capped IM - just send to email - no more capped IM's

[10:40] Taka Linden: The reason we're building the AvaLine system is to lower the barriers to participation inworld.

[10:40] Ludo Merit: I already get so much email I can't read it

[10:40] Ciaran Laval: How reliable is im to email and vice versa?

[10:40] MSo Lambert: I was always wondering, is there a technical / architectural reason for the IM cap system?

[10:40] Poid Mahovlich: I meant how many calls were made with Aveline and over what time period Taka :)

[10:40] Rihanna Laasonen: Taka, AvaLine raises barriers. I don't even have a mic on my machine.

[10:40] Taka Linden: The ability to loop in people on phones is a big deal. One-to-one is only the first step.

[10:40] Blondin Linden: I get all my IMs to me email.

[10:40] Blondin Linden: ie, reliable for me

[10:41] Poid Mahovlich: ditto Blondin

[10:41] Lexie Linden: For me too

[10:41] Taka Linden: It's not a requirement.

[10:41] Blondin Linden: Are any of you having trouble with that?

[10:41] Gordon Wendt: Taka, it would require a huge undertaking and a total rewrite to how IM"s work but the only viable option I
can think of would be an inbox/outbox message style system, going to a halfway point between IM and email but within SL

[10:41] Ciaran Laval: How do you know you get them all :p

[10:41] Sitearm Madonna idly wonders when the iPhone SL Client is coming out *coff*

[10:41] Ludo Merit: I don't want to get phone calls from people on line when I am off line. Off line is MY time.

[10:41] Gordon Wendt: incidentally, a bit off topic but IM to email still has huge issues with non english characters

[10:41] Poid Mahovlich: I never get why peeps say my im's r capped as u can see em all in email - maybe a blog on this option to
clarify is needed?

[10:41] Sitearm Madonna: ooh ooh I bet the IM work rewrite would go hand in hand with the Group rewrite

[10:41] Marianne McCann: Sitearm. Then I'd never have to leave SL again.

[10:41] Marianne McCann winks

[10:41] MSo Lambert: Sitearm, try SparkleIM for iPhone :)

[10:41] Lowri Mills: Adroid SL Client

[10:42] Sitearm Madonna: lol Mar

[10:42] Blondin Linden: Im not that popular Ciaran. Are you informed when you've reached your IM limit?

[10:42] Sitearm Madonna: yikes MSo I that I was kidding!

[10:42] Biancaluce Robbiani: no troubles to get emailed ims but sometimes Im gets messed when you login and crash or they show up
late when you relog a few times after...

[10:42] Marianne McCann: I use SparkleIM already. Not bad, all in all. Still pretty limited

[10:42] Ciaran Laval: Poid some people don't like the option of im's to email

[10:42] Poid Mahovlich: U get told when you log in that IM's r capped

[10:42] Marianne McCann: "Your messages have been capped."

[10:42] Ciaran Laval: Blondin yeah you get a message when you login

[10:42] Poid Mahovlich: but still you get all to email if you enable that feature

[10:42] Blondin Linden: Gordon, what is the problem with non-English speakers? Couldn't you argue that the language barrier itself
is the real problem?

[10:42] Marianne McCann: I see that from time to time

[10:42] Gordon Wendt: not sure how many people communicate with people who use Chinese, Japanese, Korean, middle eastern or slavic
languages but those have a tendency to break IM to email either recieving in your email or replying via the fast reply

[10:43] Poid Mahovlich: yes Blondin u could

[10:43] Poid Mahovlich: a standard sl translator would rock

[10:43] Ciaran Laval: Also how long do you get to reply to an im from email? Is it a day or two?

[10:43] Gordon Wendt: Blondin, see above, there are technical issues, and it's particularly bad for the issues that top replying
due to bad encoding since you lose your single use reply key

[10:43] Poid Mahovlich: again a feature

[10:43] Taka Linden: a couple days

[10:44] Lowri Mills: I communicate with people all over the world

[10:44] Lowri Mills: daily

[10:44] Gordon Wendt: Taka, cleaning that up each day must be one heck of a chron job

[10:44] Lowri Mills: and they have a terrible time

[10:44] Poid Mahovlich: imagine having a translator option bolted on as a feature - and again cud be costed as a premium feature
....

[10:44] Poid Mahovlich: depending

[10:44] BlueGin Yifu: a standard issue translator for all in SL would be revolutionary. Would rock this world.

[10:44] Poid Mahovlich: yup

[10:44] Poid Mahovlich: that would open a HUGE comms door for SL

[10:44] Ciaran Laval: Gordon is that issue still about with characters not counting the size correctly?

[10:44] Lowri Mills: we have 6000 arabic people coming in and we can't even give them a notecard

[10:45] Marianne McCann: Not good, Lowri

[10:45] BlueGin Yifu: Can you imagine? It would be a world first, I think.

[10:45] Biancaluce Robbiani: ahahahah i feel like snow is coming brrrr

[10:45] Biancaluce Robbiani: lol

[10:45] Biancaluce Robbiani: ;)

[10:45] Lowri Mills: The Chinese are locked out of the voice do to ISPs

[10:45] Blondin Linden: wow Lowri! 6000!

[10:45] Ciaran Laval: Mari what's this Sparkle Im?

[10:45] Poid Mahovlich: however not sure the processing power would cope - since even group messages is a pain - adding a
translator would push thing in the tech to burn out I suspect

[10:45] Gordon Wendt: Ciaran, I think there's a different one now, some characters will actually make the system discard the
reply, so say someone sends you an IM, it gets sent to your email you try to reply quoting that IM but that IM contains a strange
character, the reply doesn't go through because it got rejected by LL's server and you cannot try again because the reply code you get with your IM via email is a one time code

[10:46] Lowri Mills: so are some Middle East Countries

[10:46] Gordon Wendt: I'll try to find the JIRA

[10:46] Lowri Mills: we can get more, it it is stable

[10:46] Lowri Mills: we are handing out pdf's and textures on SL

[10:46] Blondin Linden: There is a PJira out there that Philip has going about the Snowglobe viewer and translations

[10:46] Blondin Linden: Hvae you seen it?

[10:46] Biancaluce Robbiani: the issue of arabian or simmilar characters is something discussed in another OH with Blue too

[10:46] MSo Lambert: Gordon, are you sure the IM session code is a one-time thing? I've successfully replied multiple times to a
same email IM before....

[10:46] Poid Mahovlich: nope Blondin

[10:47] Blondin Linden: really?

[10:47] Blondin Linden: Ok, let me go find the link

[10:47] Poid Mahovlich: really I been away 3 weeks not caught up yet

[10:47] Blondin Linden: you should all vote on it. Its a good feature to implement.

[10:47] Lexie Linden: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-93

[10:47] Douglas Rishmal is Online

[10:47] Cody Bracken is Online

[10:47] Poid Mahovlich: wicked ty

[10:47] Lexie Linden: ㋡

[10:48] Gordon Wendt: Haven't tried the client translator yet but it seems to be getting rave reviews on the sldev list

[10:48] Yann Dufaux: lexie i test this, but not now ㋡

[10:48] Poid Mahovlich: trying to follow all developments in SL is a task in itself - i wish the tech blog was more - how shall I
put it - compelling and featured more ?

[10:48] Lexie Linden: ok : )

[10:48] Yann Dufaux: well with the client translator its a very nice work!

[10:49] Taka Linden: How about SMS?

[10:49] Taka Linden: Would anyone use SMS in or out?

[10:49] Blondin Linden: i would love to get IMs in SMS form

[10:49] Ludo Merit: SMS?

[10:49] Poid Mahovlich: wud be cool

[10:49] Blondin Linden: :)

[10:49] Yann Dufaux: you can talk in any language, and the viewer translate in your setting pref ㋡

[10:49] Lowri Mills: yes, I have it on now

[10:49] Ciaran Laval: SMS would interest me, but would i be able to send in or only reply?

[10:49] Lowri Mills: it tells me one person here speaks French

[10:49] MSo Lambert: I would love SMS in/out, even as a paid feature

[10:49] Lowri Mills: and translates

[10:50] Marianne McCann: Blondin - yes, the option would be great. Or maybe from particular people (not all) for those who have a
capped amount of SMS traffic

[10:50] Poid Mahovlich: this would be a cool feature - depending on cost ? actually you can set up free sms and add a 'sponsors
text'

[10:50] Blondin Linden: I would think both Ci would be most useful

[10:50] Poid Mahovlich: so qualifies as marketing

[10:50] Blondin Linden: sponsor texts?

[10:50] Yann Dufaux: well, just don't work in ims, but with the privacy ruls i know te reason ㋡

[10:51] Poid Mahovlich: yes cell in the UK allow a limited free sms - orange for example and add at the bottom www,orange.co.uk

[10:51] Gordon Wendt: sponsored texting service? isn't LL already getting sued, seems like this would be just asking for someone
to sue them again if they bring a marketing firm into SL

[10:51] Gordon Wendt: targetted advertising and all that

[10:51] Poid Mahovlich: i ment add www.secondlife.com to the free SMS :)

[10:51] Ciaran Laval: See that's the problem with im to email, I can't get hold of my minions easily, whereas if I could do it via
SMS that would be superb

[10:51] Gordon Wendt: I love the idea of SMS but the idea of sponsored SMS no matter how you did it would cause problems I think

[10:52] Poid Mahovlich: not another mobile sponsor - however - that is not impossible idea ....

[10:52] Poid Mahovlich: grab at & T :)

[10:52] Poid Mahovlich: investors - might bite as something like this - know knows

[10:52] Poid Mahovlich: who*

[10:53] Poid Mahovlich: why problems business is business?

[10:53] Taka Linden: How about your.avatar@secondlife.com?

[10:53] Poid Mahovlich: investors cud allow cash growth to invest in new tech

[10:53] Gordon Wendt: and users are incredibly irrational

[10:53] Ciaran Laval: That has potential Taka

[10:53] Biancaluce Robbiani: Btw talking about communication... a thing I would love to know is if there is anymore any Second
Life Radio...

[10:53] Marianne McCann: Taka - I would *love* to have that

[10:53] Taka Linden: Would a personal email alias be helpful for folks, or just one more email address?

[10:53] Blondin Linden: that was some other feedback we got from the blog

[10:54] MSo Lambert: I've used my.avatar@gmail.com for quite a while now, not sure about yet another email address, unless it came
with extra integrated features :)

[10:54] Poid Mahovlich: depends taka what benefits it had - how big a mail box and features

[10:54] Rihanna Laasonen: Another "nice for premiums" feature -- email address for you rav.

[10:54] Poid Mahovlich: gmail rocks currently

[10:54] Taka Linden: OK

[10:54] Rihanna Laasonen: your av, even.

[10:54] Marianne McCann: Taka - for me it would be a useful addition. It would help, IMO, add a level of professionalism to those
of us doing business in here.

[10:54] Biancaluce Robbiani: I agree

[10:54] Ciaran Laval: I agree with Mari on that point

[10:54] Gordon Wendt: Taka, it would b ecool, I could set all my SLX email spam to go in a loop from my LL email to my Gordon
Wendt Gmail account back to my LL email and so on

[10:54] Ludo Merit: Would it be one more email address, or really one more email client? I have enough trouble using the one I've
got

[10:54] Gordon Wendt: SL email rather, not LL email

[10:55] Taka Linden: depends on how we'd implement it, I suppose

[10:55] Blondin Linden: i was going to say Gordon!!!

[10:55] Poid Mahovlich: well u cud attach the second life one to ya gmail and have the best of both worlds :)

[10:55] Poid Mahovlich: a secondlife email addy and gmail features

[10:55] Marianne McCann: I would prefer it be usable as a forward to my non-SL account or elsewhere though, rather than a separate
e-mail system (web mail, etc) I'd have to read.

[10:55] Ciaran Laval: Also yesterday people were saying they'd like to be able to im in via a standard messenger such as Yim or
MSN. Not sure how feasible that is

[10:55] Poid Mahovlich: *assumes the position

[10:56] Taka Linden: Would IM interoperability interest people?

[10:56] Marianne McCann: Naw, I prefer my IMs integrated with the client

[10:56] Poid Mahovlich: yes Taka

[10:56] Taka Linden: or Skype interoperability?

[10:56] Marianne McCann: Taka - yes

[10:56] Gordon Wendt: and I'd have no qualms about doing that, speaking of communication, you should have a quiet word with the PR
team and tell them to stop sending advert emails unless we specifically op in

[10:56] Gordon Wendt: none of this opt out bullshit

[10:56] Marianne McCann: and yes

[10:56] Poid Mahovlich: yes deffo skype

[10:56] Sitearm Madonna: @Gordon I agree -

[10:56] Sitearm Madonna: :)

[10:56] Blondin Linden: I've seen people ask for better lip syncing as well. Don't really know if that would count as a
communication tool

[10:56] Taka Linden: Would there be any issues related to Skype having some real names?

[10:56] Poid Mahovlich: skype is the leading online comms of choice so why not utilize that ?

[10:56] Gordon Wendt: This is another statement I'm willing to say I think there's wide community support for

[10:56] Marianne McCann: Gordon - surely you wanted to know all about that fashion show

[10:57] Poid Mahovlich: give a choice regarding names Taka

[10:57] Gordon Wendt: Taka, umm..... yes

[10:57] Biancaluce Robbiani: Hi Joao

[10:57] Marianne McCann: Marianne McCann has a Skype account /me winks

[10:57] Taka Linden: OK

[10:57] joao Mastroianni: Hello everyone :-))

[10:57] Taka Linden: This is great.

[10:57] Poid Mahovlich: bussiness and personal - RL name or avatar - choices are important

[10:58] Taka Linden: I really appreciate the input.

[10:58] Gordon Wendt: Marianne, of course, I'm actually one of the largest fashion designers in SL in disguise, I just left my
high heels in my inventory for today :)

[10:58] Lowri Mills: so does Lowri Mills

[10:58] Gordon Wendt: lol

[10:58] joao Mastroianni: Bianca :)

[10:58] Biancaluce Robbiani: The radio when I started was a good way to communicate from LL side to all or from a sort of official
channel...

[10:58] Poid Mahovlich: radio SL wud be cool

[10:58] BlueGin Yifu: Are you talking about making these communication tools part of SL or do you mean everyone within SL should
get these also? Then, do we need separate accounts for our RL and SL selves? Gets confusing and I do not know how many casual
players will do this.

[10:58] Poid Mahovlich: as a official channel

[10:58] Marianne McCann: Yes, Radio Linden. That's one old product

[10:58] Gordon Wendt: Blondin, people are also asking for it to be on by default and have the option to turn it off hidden so deep
as to make it essentially mandatory, that doesn't mean it isn't a horrible idea

[10:59] Gordon Wendt: lip sync should be the lowest priority possible

[10:59] Rihanna Laasonen: Radio and podcasting are both nice passive channels to reach people who

[10:59]  Poid Mahovlich: good easy comms - unless yr non english speaking

[10:59] Marianne McCann: Shame that and the old info boards are so, well, unused.

[10:59] Gordon Wendt: in my opinion

[10:59] Blondin Linden: :)

[10:59] Lowri Mills: with tutorials on it would be good

[10:59] Rihanna Laasonen: wouldn't necessarily hunt up the blogs, and they've both been abandoned.

[10:59] Gordon Wendt: Blondin, I know we have like 1 minute left but are you guys going to do something about making the new boards actually usable?

[10:59] Gordon Wendt: the new forum boards I mean

[11:00] Poid Mahovlich: which boards Gordon?

[11:00] Poid Mahovlich: k

[11:00] Poid Mahovlich: yeah web site needs a tweak in functionality

[11:00] BlueGin Yifu: Is our purpose to discuss how LL can communicate to residents or how we can all communicate within SL? The
goal is to communicate with SL, isn't it? Not how do we communicate external to SL.

[11:00] Biancaluce Robbiani: yes... and as far as I could see .. listening in english is good to improve so .. Radio feature is a good tutorial way

[11:00] Gordon Wendt: the new commerce board, eventually to be the whole forum, currently they are incredibly unusable, IF YOU GO LIVE WITH MOVING EVERYTHING OVER YOU WILL LOSE RESIDENTS

[11:00] Gordon Wendt: sorry for the caps but that needed to be shouted

[11:00] BlueGin Yifu: *WITHIN SL

[11:01] Blondin Linden: hey all, Taka and I need to go.

[11:01] Rihanna Laasonen dittos Gordon.

[11:01] Blondin Linden: But this was a good turn out

[11:01] Blondin Linden: Lots of useful info

[11:01] Lexie Linden: Great discussion ㋡

[11:01] Sitearm Madonna: shall you post a summary ?

[11:01] Taka Linden: Thanks again, everyone.

[11:01] Gordon Wendt: and of course I get ignored by the Lindens

[11:01] Ciaran Laval: Cheers Blondin, shall we just camp here till you come back? ;)

[11:01] Marianne McCann: You're welcome! :-)

[11:01] Torben Trautman waves

[11:01] Blondin Linden: I will clean up the chat log

[11:01] Torben Trautman: bye all

[11:01] Sitearm Madonna: on the blog or sumpin :) ?

[11:01] Poid Mahovlich: ty all

[11:01] Marianne McCann: See ya later today, Blondin

[11:01] Blondin Linden: and have a transcript for those who ask

[11:01] Lowri Mills: Thank you, for the time and discussion

[11:01] Taka Linden: Gordon, thanks for joining!

[11:01] Ciaran Laval: Thanks Taka and Lexie

[11:01] Taka Linden: really good insights

User:Blondin Linden/Commtools 16SEP09

2009-09-17T02:43:37Z

Gordon Wendt: minor spacing fix

Office Hours Meeting Notes 16-Sep-2009

Topic: Communication Tools

Participants (21):
* {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}
* {{User|Blondin Linden}}
* {{User|Bluegin Yifu}}
* {{User|Ciaran Laval}}
* {{User|Daniel Voyager}}
* {{User|Ella Mcmahon}}
* {{User|Gordon Went}}
* {{User|Joao Miastroianni}}
* {{User|Kris Darmoset}}
* {{User|Lexie Linden}}
* {{User|Lowri Mills}}
* {{User|Ludo Merit}}
* {{User|Marianne Mccann}}
* {{User|Mso Lambert}}
* {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}
* {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}
* {{User|Sitearm Madonna}}
* {{User|Surfaqua Oh}}
* {{User|Taka Linden}}
* {{User|Torben Trautman}}
* {{User|Yann Dufaux}}

[10:03] Blondin Linden: Well, I suppose we can begin. Thanks all for coming! This meeting was a result of some of the feedback we got from the Avaline blog post

[10:03] Ciaran Laval: :P Gordon

[10:04] Gordon Wendt: was the feedback that most users wanted nothing to do with it and that LL was wasting their time?

[10:04] Blondin Linden: I don't know if you all had a chance to read it, but Taka here was interested in engaging outside of the comments and getting a wider view of how we can better improve commnication tools in SL.

[10:04] Blondin Linden: Something along those lines Gordon :)

[10:05] Taka Linden: Yes. How many of you are using AvaLine now?

[10:05] Gordon Wendt: I think most users want groups to work, IM's to work, and for commiunication via notecard not to be the only reliable option

[10:05] Taka Linden: or Skype?

[10:05] Gordon Wendt: or SLVoice? nobody uses that either

[10:05] Gordon Wendt: groups being group IM's in this context

[10:05] Ciaran Laval: I didn't extend my Avaline usage beyond the beta test

[10:05] Lowri Mills: we use SL Voice

[10:05] Ludo Merit: Using Skype, and SL voice. I sing a capella in it

[10:06] Daniel Voyager: I use Skype mostly.

[10:06] Blondin Linden: I think a lot of the feedback we got was that Skype was the prefered method of communication

[10:06] BlueGin Yifu: I do not know what the Avaline blog is; so I guess that's the first thing I have to say about communications. hehe

[10:06] Lowri Mills: we are finding firewalls in the middle east and some Chinese ISPs that block it

[10:06] Blondin Linden: I'll find the link Blue Gin

[10:06] Ciaran Laval: Avaline might be useful for some very big companies but it falls flat for the average user

[10:06] Marianne McCann: I beta tested Avaline.

[10:06] Gordon Wendt: even if some people do use it, because so many people used/use skype it seems like there was a lot of
duplicated effort that only achieved splitting the community into using two incompatible systems

[10:06] Daniel Voyager: Twitter and Plurk seems to be getting popular these days. :p

[10:07] Daniel Voyager: with SL

[10:07] Lexie Linden: good point Daniel

[10:07] Taka Linden: Do people use Twitter and Plurk for the same kind of messaging as Group Chat?

[10:07] Ciaran Laval: Do you guys have an Avaline number for support calls?

[10:07] Taka Linden: they seem like quite different tools to me

[10:08] Blondin Linden: https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/features/blog/2009/08/19/bye-bye-beta-avaline-dial-an-avatar-is-now-
available-to-all-avatars

[10:08] SunnyBoy Arashi: i do not have , don't know so much about it

[10:08] Taka Linden: As for AvaLine as a way to reach support, it is not currently an option.

[10:08] Ludo Merit: It would never have occurred to me to use twitter for chat

[10:08] Poid Mahovlich: Twitter and Plurk can virus a message much faster

[10:08] Gordon Wendt: having to watch both twitter and plurk is a pain

[10:08] Marianne McCann: Agreed, Poid

[10:08] Rihanna Laasonen: Why is faster better?

[10:08] Ciaran Laval: Ah thanks Taka, I think that would be a good way of showcasing Avaline if you did offer that as an option.

[10:08] Taka Linden: Good idea.

[10:08] Poid Mahovlich: Gordon so get a tool to view all at once - ire friend feed

[10:08] Blondin Linden: I use Plurk. I find it a great tool to pass links and news about whats going on

[10:09] Ludo Merit: I won't use anything I have to pay more for, such as Avaline

[10:09] Blondin Linden: I like the Karma :)

[10:09] Biancaluce Robbiani: there are some abrogators Gordon for that?

[10:09] Gordon Wendt: Taka, of course not, that would be proof that LL has confidence in avaline as a platform and you can't have
that :)

[10:09] Rihanna Laasonen: Notices sent to e-mail give us an easy record to refer back to -- if they just worked.

[10:09] Gordon Wendt: *that

[10:09] Poid Mahovlich: yeah avaline is a needless expense imho

[10:09] Gordon Wendt: second what Rihanna just said

[10:09] Taka Linden: Actually, the support team has a very specific set of needs, and AvaLine was not designed to serve those "use
cases"

[10:10] Taka Linden: though it definitely could be helpful in some circumstances

[10:10] Ciaran Laval: Avaline is useful for ambitious business within SL, you can offer worldwide phone access

[10:10] Petra Linden is Online

[10:10] Poid Mahovlich: what was it's parameters specifically then Taka?

[10:10] Marianne McCann: I've yet to find a good use of AvaLine with my clients, at least not any that Skype isn't already handling

[10:10] Gordon Wendt: As I said before though, I think there is a pretty strong consensus among users that they don't want new
communications tools, they want the existing tools to do what they're advertised to do and supposed to do

[10:11] Poid Mahovlich: *nods

[10:11] BlueGin Yifu: agree

[10:11] Lowri Mills: yes

[10:11] Rihanna Laasonen: ?me nods vigorously.

[10:11] Ludo Merit nods too

[10:11] Taka Linden: This first edition of AvaLine is intended simply to allow someone inworld to stay in touch with people who
are not online

[10:11] Gordon Wendt: Can I assume that there is an internal team at LL that handles comm. tools?

[10:11] Ciaran Laval: I don't mind new tools if they offer better functionality than the current tools, group chat and notices is
rather clunky

[10:11] Lexie Linden: Hi Yann and Surf

[10:11] Surfaqua Oh: hello

[10:12] MSo Lambert: Hi all

[10:12] Taka Linden: Do any of you run inworld businesses?

[10:12] Lowri Mills: and we need notecards that read arabic

[10:12] Lowri Mills: yes

[10:12] SunnyBoy Arashi: sorry all gota go some one need help

[10:12] Lowri Mills: I do

[10:12] Marianne McCann: Taka - what would be the second edition of AvaLine, then?

[10:12] Biancaluce Robbiani: hya Surf, Yann

[10:12] Gordon Wendt: Ciaran, if they could rewrite and supersede old tools in functionality I'd agree

[10:12] Lowri Mills: languagelab.com

[10:12] SunnyBoy Arashi: c ya next time

[10:12] Poid Mahovlich: ok - so avaline falls a little short as tools already exists that work and are better no offense

[10:12] Ludo Merit: Small one

[10:12] Marianne McCann: Ya, that

[10:12] Rihanna Laasonen: Yes, and IM works fine for my small business. Avaline has no

[10:12] Rihanna Laasonen: purpose for me.

[10:13] Taka Linden: Future versions of AvaLine will expand the inworld audience, so a caller could participate in group
conversations, not just one-to-one voice chat.

[10:13] Rihanna Laasonen: Better IM would be nice, but I've no need for voice-related anything.

[10:13] Lowri Mills: we use SL Voice

[10:13] Lowri Mills: and group chat

[10:13] Poid Mahovlich: does avaline work for anyone you know of ? I'd be interested to hear a positive also on this

[10:13] Blondin Linden: So if you all could create a wish list of things you wanted fixed, wanted to see, what would you include?

[10:13] Gordon Wendt: Taka, yes, a business and a group utilizing Mentor resource.

[10:14] Ludo Merit: That would come in handy, Taka, though there's a program out there to do that already, which, unfortunately
for me, costs money.

[10:14] Taka Linden: Some of the biggest praise has come from the education community, where non-PC access to people inworld is
proving important.

[10:14] Marianne McCann: Voice is okay, but a lot of my clients seem to want to use text, mainly for a written record.

[10:14] Gordon Wendt: albeit a fairly quiet one

[10:14] Ciaran Laval: Ok look im's get capped at 25, that needs fixing somehow

[10:14] Poid Mahovlich: first of main connective tool is the SL blog - which is improved - but still yet not fully utilized

[10:14] Gordon Wendt: Blondin, Group Chat, Group Notices, IM Chat, Inventory, Teleporting, Pie

[10:14] Poid Mahovlich: off*

[10:14] Ciaran Laval: or some other number, it's around 25 I think, or is it size based?

[10:14] Biancaluce Robbiani: as I could see many residents do not like voice chat so far... but any change in that direction is
glad IMHO

[10:14] Lowri Mills: We teach English and other languages, we need voice

[10:14] Ludo Merit: If you come up with an equally good group phone feature that costs less I might use it eventually

[10:15] Poid Mahovlich: oh we talking inworld?>

[10:15] Rihanna Laasonen: In-world/out-world IM that's better than replying to previous IM's-to-email.

[10:15] BlueGin Yifu: Is the main issue here what tools to use in communicating? Or is the issue how to have clearer
communications? Or all of this?

[10:15] Rihanna Laasonen: Group notices that work, and more groups.

[10:15] Biancaluce Robbiani: Educators too are split in 2 opposite points of view

[10:15] Lowri Mills: yes, our notices didn't work today

[10:15] Rihanna Laasonen: The ability to NOT communicate -- to turn off group chat without blocking local communication.

[10:15] Poid Mahovlich: yeah I'd be happy if the basics worked - then move to additions and so on

[10:15] Yann Dufaux: burned :p

[10:15] Taka Linden: Lowri Mills: Please tell me more about how Notices didn't work for you today.

[10:16] Blondin Linden: yes, I agree the 25 group limit tends to be annoying when you've maxed out

[10:16] Biancaluce Robbiani: Communication in sharing same document would a big thing too

[10:16] Poid Mahovlich: however again I do feel the main blog is still not up 2 speed in terms of actually use

[10:16] Biancaluce Robbiani: thing*

[10:16] Lowri Mills: we had a teacher out with the flu, and she sent 3 notices , none of them worked

[10:16] Lowri Mills: but those around 4am did work

[10:16] Yann Dufaux: aw, more of 25 group could be very great ㋡

[10:16] Poid Mahovlich: as ever

[10:16] Taka Linden: Hmmm. Did she tell customer support?

[10:16] Poid Mahovlich: that old chestnut

[10:16] Lowri Mills: it just happened

[10:17] Marianne McCann: I'm *always* maxed out on groups. The current group/IM framework may have worked in 2003, but it's pretty
overworked in 2009

[10:17] Lowri Mills: it happens on an off

[10:17] Ludo Merit: Haven't we mentors been asking for more than 25 for years? There must be a reason why not or we'd have 'em.

[10:17] Taka Linden: How many groups would you like?

[10:17] Taka Linden: if you could have any number?

[10:17] Taka Linden: How many do you need?

[10:17] Gordon Wendt: Blondin, there are several proposed solutions for that, LL just has to take the initiative, the most popular
and the most realistic to implement I think is the proposal to change it to two types of groups

[10:17] Poid Mahovlich: realistically another 10 - no need to be greedy

[10:17] Ciaran Laval: as manay as I can get

[10:17] Gordon Wendt: which would lessen load enough to allow more groups

[10:17] Yann Dufaux: Taka, 35 of 40 groups ㋡

[10:17] Daniel Voyager: 35+

[10:18] Biancaluce Robbiani: yes Ludo... I agree... more than 25 is a big tech mess I guess

[10:18] Lowri Mills: I may not need so many groups if I had more roles and different tools

[10:18] Marianne McCann: To be honest, given the current method of groups for announcements, for build access, etc, I would be
*comfortable* with 35-50, but would prefer not having a cap

[10:18] Poid Mahovlich: I assumed groups was a no go - due to computing and processing ? it doesn't work not - so with a group
increase the problems would also increase - so it pie in the sky

[10:18] Lowri Mills: where you could have different roles receive notices

[10:18] Yann Dufaux: but with the possibility to fusion the parallel group

[10:18] Taka Linden: The reason there is a group limit at all is to manage system overload. But we do hear loudly and clearly that
25 is too low for many residents.

[10:18] Poid Mahovlich: now*

[10:18] Gordon Wendt: Ludo, agreed, we have 1 official and what 3 or 4 unofficial but necessary groups?

[10:18] Ludo Merit: Well, if people would use groups more wisely, I might be able to get along with 25, but people are using
groups for things they could use subscriber lists for, and using multiple groups instead of roles in groups

[10:18] Yann Dufaux: lite a hotmail emails fusion ㋡

[10:18] Yann Dufaux: like*

[10:19] Marianne McCann: True, Poid. The whole *system* needs an update. It's pretty fundamentally limited

[10:19] Ludo Merit: But there's a reason for that. If we could send notices to a group role instead of the whole group, we'd need
fewer groups

[10:19] Gordon Wendt: Taka, are you hearing our proposed solutions on the JIRA to lower that load?

[10:19] Poid Mahovlich: Taka can a new work about like subscribe o matic be implemented ? and broadly used?

[10:19] Taka Linden: What percentage of group messages are really one-way messages from businesses trying to promote their
offerings?

[10:19] Biancaluce Robbiani: Imagine to have to handle connections for over 25 groups for each of us..... sorting residents on line etc .. a big bunch of data may cause big crashes

[10:19] Ciaran Laval: I'm with Gordon on moving to a two kinds of group system, how many land groups I need is not the same as asking how many groups I'd like to receive notices from

[10:19] Taka Linden: subscribeomatic is interesting

[10:19] Rihanna Laasonen: Most of the useful message are, IMO.

[10:19] Marianne McCann: This is not a criticism, simply a note that SL has grown to a point where it needs a more scalable system
in place for that

[10:19] Guy Linden is Online

[10:19] Taka Linden: does anyone here use subscribeomatic?

[10:20] Ludo Merit: Yes

[10:20] Yann Dufaux: if i have a group to support and other customer update, i need to did a fusion of group to send notices or proposal one times for the two group ㋡

[10:20] Marianne McCann: Ciaran - I've long advocated creating a build/script access list into the estate or parcel information.

[10:20] Biancaluce Robbiani: we should have a free "subscibing system" for example

[10:20] Ciaran Laval: I'm in some subscribe-o-matic groups and I've used Hipp groups which is a similar thing

[10:20] Blondin Linden: Gordon, Ciaran, is there a Jira for that?

[10:20] Marianne McCann: Do away with needing a "rez group" entirely

[10:20] Ludo Merit: It's free so I can use it.

[10:20] Gordon Wendt: yes, one second and I'll try to find it

[10:20] Poid Mahovlich: or set up an out of world system perhaps - maybe for premium users ? so they can have as many groups as they like - a separate connections area which is web based ..... outside box soltions

[10:20] Gordon Wendt: unless Ciaran has a link handy

[10:20] Ciaran Laval: Hippo Groups

[10:21] Ludo Merit: Cost money

[10:21] Biancaluce Robbiani: is it free?

[10:21] Ciaran Laval: No Gordon, unfortunately I don't have them handy

[10:21] Ciaran Laval: Marianne that's a good proposal on scripted access in the parcel

[10:21] Poid Mahovlich: I know many would be happy to pay an extra premium for additional groups offers

[10:22] Marianne McCann: Ciaran - thanks. It would cut several groups from my must have list

[10:22] Lowri Mills: now that is a good idea

[10:22] Blondin Linden: Poid, that would be a neat feature for premium accounts, an incentive perhaps to upgrade

[10:22] Lowri Mills: I would pay for extra roles, groups, etc

[10:22] Rihanna Laasonen: More groups seems an obvious solution to the "How to make premium worthwhile" question.

[10:22] Poid Mahovlich: yus exactly

[10:22] Gordon Wendt: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2833 is the general issue and http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2816 is the specific issue for the separate types

[10:22] Poid Mahovlich: do in in RL bussiness - so do it here

[10:22] BlueGin Yifu: Group chat can be so annoying. Subscribeomatic is good for most big groups and shows.

[10:22] Marianne McCann: Ciaran: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-12078

[10:23] Poid Mahovlich: *nods at BlueGin

[10:23] Ciaran Laval: Cheers Mari

[10:23] Marianne McCann grins

[10:23] Gordon Wendt: that's another one that could be implemented, none of them are exclusively viable so all or some of them could be implemented it seems

[10:23] Rihanna Laasonen: We really need the granularity on which group chat to hear.

[10:24] Taka Linden: Got it.

[10:24] Poid Mahovlich: but make a subscrobe o matic a standard SL feature or a premium one

[10:24] Biancaluce Robbiani: if we suppose that is not possible to increase inworld group numbers... why don't offer a
subscriptomatic official mechanism?

[10:24] Taka Linden: So opt-in group messages?

[10:24] Poid Mahovlich: ha exactly Bianca

[10:24]  BlueGin Yifu: yes

[10:24] Gordon Wendt: having scriptable group invites would be a good way to deal with subscribe-o-matic type experience

[10:24] Rihanna Laasonen: Opt-in, that we can turn on or off easily.

[10:24] Lowri Mills: I like the feature where we can now add the person's card into group chat, instead of making another group

[10:24] Ciaran Laval: Opt-in is always the nicer solution

[10:24] Gordon Wendt: if they raised groups

[10:24] Rihanna Laasonen: And make sure to handle notices and chat separately.

[10:24] Taka Linden: OK. This is great feedback.

[10:24] Marianne McCann: true, Gordon

[10:24] Poid Mahovlich: opt in with control even - imagine

[10:25] Poid Mahovlich: its a basic bolt one in actual fact

[10:25] Poid Mahovlich: on*

[10:25] Ludo Merit: My problem with turning off groups is that they don't come back on the way they used to, so if I turn one off
I don't hear it again unless I remember to turn it on.

[10:25] Poid Mahovlich: yeah a setting for that wud be good

[10:25] Poid Mahovlich: again to give options and control

[10:26] Poid Mahovlich: group chat on/off/

[10:26] Gordon Wendt: llGroupInvite, llGroupEject, should be implemented, group invite would send a standard group invite and
would have to be only usable in touch and have a mute button to prevent spamming

[10:26] BlueGin Yifu: great idea, poid

[10:26] Marianne McCann: Agreed

[10:26] Gordon Wendt: don't have a JIRA for that but would be good

[10:26] Ciaran Laval: That would also cut down on the need for group inviter bots

[10:26] Poid Mahovlich: eject how many times do u see a group chat spammer muted - who only relogs and is right back at it

[10:26] Yann Dufaux: protection against flood of voice/group request ㋡

[10:27] Blondin Linden: Good point Ciaran. You know how I'm such a fan of bots

[10:27] Gordon Wendt: oh, group banning is a feature that is desperately needed

[10:27] Ciaran Laval: Yes Blondin, we've noticed ;)

[10:27] Torben Trautman: hi there

[10:27] Gordon Wendt: you should be able to ban people from groups

[10:27] Yann Dufaux: hi Torben ㋡

[10:27] Gordon Wendt: we need a group ban feature

[10:27] Biancaluce Robbiani: some other viewers )I've heard) allow ppl to take down all friend list and other data and they use it
for spam purposes (that is the reverse face of the medal)

[10:27] Poid Mahovlich: a perm on/ off mute for group and individuals is also useful - but would have to show the avatar who is
perm muted - so there is a chance to undo :P

[10:27] Marianne McCann: Amen, Gordon

[10:27] Blondin Linden: a group ban feature?

[10:28] Gordon Wendt: chat spam because of chat lag

[10:28] Poid Mahovlich: as ever

[10:28] Gordon Wendt: one sec, I'll grab the link to that

[10:28] Biancaluce Robbiani: too much ideas here lol chat lag

[10:28] Yann Dufaux: chat voice , in group = chat lag for other (i think ..)

[10:28] Gordon Wendt: yeah Blondin, an ability to have a banlist for a group to ban avatars from joining

[10:28] Poid Mahovlich: Blondin u can eject a group member - they can if the group is set to open enrol rejoin again

[10:28] Poid Mahovlich: is a pain in the *CENSORED*

[10:28] Gordon Wendt: yeah, what poid said

[10:28] Poid Mahovlich: so effectively you can not perm ban

[10:29] Ludo Merit: I ask

[10:29] Poid Mahovlich: from a group

[10:29] Gordon Wendt: this shouldn't be confused with the request some extremists have to be able to ban people from property
based on the groups they're in

[10:29] Blondin Linden: oh I get it poid

[10:29] Poid Mahovlich: yeah that Gordon is in my opinion not needed

[10:29] Gordon Wendt: something for you to clean up

[10:29] Gordon Wendt: HIPPOS

[10:29] Gordon Wendt: that is all :)

[10:29] Poid Mahovlich: *nods

[10:29] Ciaran Laval: Apologise for throwing an aside in here, but does anyone use Slim?

[10:29] Ciaran Laval: apologies even

[10:29] Poid Mahovlich: nope

[10:30] Lowri Mills: nope

[10:30] Biancaluce Robbiani: no

[10:30] Sitearm Madonna waves

[10:30] Marianne McCann: Ciaran - I have used it a time or two, but not with much seriousness

[10:30] Ludo Merit: Slim?

[10:30] Biancaluce Robbiani: ㋡

[10:30] Ran Hienrichs is Online

[10:30] Marianne McCann: The only time i need a "SLim, well, I need something with more features, and use SparkleIM on my iPhone

[10:30] Blondin Linden: I have Slim , used it once or twice

[10:30] Taka Linden: has anyone used both subscribeomatic and hippo groups?

[10:30] Taka Linden: is one better than the other?

[10:30] Blondin Linden: it was helpful but wasn't widely adapted

[10:30] Taka Linden: or are they comparable

[10:30] Taka Linden: ?

[10:30] Poid Mahovlich: maybe a mas questionairre what do we need to communicate in SL - might help u guys get a better overview -
this is a small selection here - but is the same stuff and feedback I have heard for last 4 yrs

[10:30] Lowri Mills: no

[10:31] Marianne McCann: Ive used subscribeomatics. Like much

[10:31] Gordon Wendt: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2825

[10:31] Ludo Merit: Subscribeomatic is free for small groups, so it is better

[10:31] Yann Dufaux: whats hippo group?

[10:31] Poid Mahovlich: hippo is a rental system

[10:31] Sitearm Madonna: we use the bot method

[10:31] Gordon Wendt: that's the ban list request, it also has a duplicate with a lot of votes at http://jira.secondlife.com/browse
/SVC-2826

[10:31] Sitearm Madonna: it avoids griefers banned from the region getting back into the group

[10:31] Ciaran Laval: II've only ever used subscribe-o-matic as a customer, Hippo I've used as a merchant to send information,
they seem similar in purpose

[10:31] Poid Mahovlich: with additions to hippo u can do other stuff such a group subscribes etc

[10:32] Gordon Wendt: Ciaran, people shouldn't need to resort to bots to handle region and group control though, wouldn't you
agree?

[10:32] Poid Mahovlich: agreed Gordon

[10:32] Ciaran Laval: Absolutely Gordon

[10:32] Poid Mahovlich: there are work arounds a SL /LL system to get what is needed

[10:32] Sitearm Madonna: well I still think users have more programming numbers on hand to invent things than poor overwhelmed LL
does

[10:32] Poid Mahovlich: plan and simple

[10:32] Poid Mahovlich: plane*#

[10:33] Sitearm Madonna: ty Bianca

[10:33] Biancaluce Robbiani: yw

[10:33] Blondin Linden: Thanks for the Jira Gordon

[10:34] Gordon Wendt: Blondin, I linked and closed that second one I just linked as a duplicate of the first, but both have a ton
of votes

[10:34] MSo Lambert: hippoGroups are nicely integrated with their other products, like Hippo vendor, but some of our customers
(I'm Subscribe-O-Matic creator) say they are overwhelmed by too many features :) Subscribe-O-Matic is also strictly opt-in only,
while hippoGroups allow group owners to add avatar keys/names manually to their database.

[10:34] Gordon Wendt: that sounds underhanded

[10:35] Gordon Wendt: what's to stop a hippogroups owner from adding the w-hat database with a bot and spamming everyone

[10:35] Ciaran Laval: I think they discourage it, I dislike buying from a store and being spammed

[10:35] Gordon Wendt: and I use w-hat as an example because it can be easily pulled via bot if someone wanted to

[10:35] Poid Mahovlich: non Gordon it is possible but is not fail proof

[10:35] Gordon Wendt: <sigh> nothing ever is

[10:35] Taka Linden: How about voicemail? Has anyone tried it?

[10:36] Poid Mahovlich: true u can script by pass it so I am told ?

[10:36] Echo Linden is Offline

[10:36] Ciaran Laval: I tested it on Avaline but decided listening to my own message was a tad too sad!

[10:36] Taka Linden: :-)

[10:36] Poid Mahovlich: awww

[10:36] Marianne McCann: I have not used it aside form testing. It really hasn't been a need for me.

[10:36] Rihanna Laasonen: Taka, I don't use anything with voice and won't anytime in the next few years.

[10:36] Yann Dufaux: thanks Sietearm ㋡

[10:37] Rihanna Laasonen: It's just irrelevant -- I write, I want want written records.

[10:37] Gordon Wendt: same here, I keep my RL and my SL seperate

[10:37] Taka Linden: Apparently, each month between 8,000 and 12,000 inworld calls go unanswered

[10:37] Gordon Wendt: and voice would break that

[10:37] Rihanna Laasonen: I'm not here to sing.

[10:37] Marianne McCann: Rihanna - yes, I find the written record to be of a lot of use in some of my projects.

[10:37] Taka Linden: To me, that feels like a lot of missed communication.

[10:37] Poid Mahovlich: what do u mean by that Taka?

[10:37] Gordon Wendt: Taka, do you have stats about how many IM's go unanswered? now that would be an interesting stat

[10:37] Taka Linden: and an opportunity for us to enhance the service to help people connect

[10:37] Rihanna Laasonen: Voice is great as an option -- for presentations and concerts and such.

[10:38] Taka Linden: I don't have a similar stat on IMs, though it would be interesting.

[10:38] Rihanna Laasonen: But I think the focus on getting us all to use it as a primary communication tool is misled.

[10:38] MSo Lambert: I'm more worried how many IM's end up in a void when offline IMs cap :)

[10:38] Ciaran Laval: I like the option of voice, hardly ever use it but I like the option

[10:38] Ludo Merit: The thing about voice is that is so often has hum or static behind it

[10:38] BlueGin Yifu: What do you mean when you say IM's go unanswered?

[10:39] Gordon Wendt: I agree with MSO, capped IM's need to end, there has to be a better system

[10:39] Poid Mahovlich: So Taka - I am interested in why LL wud spend time and resource on Avaline when it maybe looks like skype
is being used more? how many calls were successfully connected ?

[10:39] Taka Linden: Gordon, please do explain. Are you asking about IMs that are capped, or simply not responded to?

[10:39] Sitearm Madonna: SL Voice is still about 90% reliable in a group of more than 3, where reliable means "it works for
everyone immediately first time" and that 10% not working is a time eater

[10:39] Taka Linden: I don't have an exact number for call success rate, but it is very high.

[10:39] Gordon Wendt: responding to MSO I meant capped by the system, currently they go to /dev/null which is unacceptable

[10:39] Poid Mahovlich: capped IM - just send to email - no more capped IM's

[10:40] Taka Linden: The reason we're building the AvaLine system is to lower the barriers to participation inworld.

[10:40] Ludo Merit: I already get so much email I can't read it

[10:40] Ciaran Laval: How reliable is im to email and vice versa?

[10:40] MSo Lambert: I was always wondering, is there a technical / architectural reason for the IM cap system?

[10:40] Poid Mahovlich: I meant how many calls were made with Aveline and over what time period Taka :)

[10:40] Rihanna Laasonen: Taka, AvaLine raises barriers. I don't even have a mic on my machine.

[10:40] Taka Linden: The ability to loop in people on phones is a big deal. One-to-one is only the first step.

[10:40] Blondin Linden: I get all my IMs to me email.

[10:40] Blondin Linden: ie, reliable for me

[10:41] Poid Mahovlich: ditto Blondin

[10:41] Lexie Linden: For me too

[10:41] Taka Linden: It's not a requirement.

[10:41] Blondin Linden: Are any of you having trouble with that?

[10:41] Gordon Wendt: Taka, it would require a huge undertaking and a total rewrite to how IM"s work but the only viable option I
can think of would be an inbox/outbox message style system, going to a halfway point between IM and email but within SL

[10:41] Ciaran Laval: How do you know you get them all :p

[10:41] Sitearm Madonna idly wonders when the iPhone SL Client is coming out *coff*

[10:41] Ludo Merit: I don't want to get phone calls from people on line when I am off line. Off line is MY time.

[10:41] Gordon Wendt: incidentally, a bit off topic but IM to email still has huge issues with non english characters

[10:41] Poid Mahovlich: I never get why peeps say my im's r capped as u can see em all in email - maybe a blog on this option to
clarify is needed?

[10:41] Sitearm Madonna: ooh ooh I bet the IM work rewrite would go hand in hand with the Group rewrite

[10:41] Marianne McCann: Sitearm. Then I'd never have to leave SL again.

[10:41] Marianne McCann winks

[10:41] MSo Lambert: Sitearm, try SparkleIM for iPhone :)

[10:41] Lowri Mills: Adroid SL Client

[10:42] Sitearm Madonna: lol Mar

[10:42] Blondin Linden: Im not that popular Ciaran. Are you informed when you've reached your IM limit?

[10:42] Sitearm Madonna: yikes MSo I that I was kidding!

[10:42] Biancaluce Robbiani: no troubles to get emailed ims but sometimes Im gets messed when you login and crash or they show up
late when you relog a few times after...

[10:42] Marianne McCann: I use SparkleIM already. Not bad, all in all. Still pretty limited

[10:42] Ciaran Laval: Poid some people don't like the option of im's to email

[10:42] Poid Mahovlich: U get told when you log in that IM's r capped

[10:42] Marianne McCann: "Your messages have been capped."

[10:42] Ciaran Laval: Blondin yeah you get a message when you login

[10:42] Poid Mahovlich: but still you get all to email if you enable that feature

[10:42] Blondin Linden: Gordon, what is the problem with non-English speakers? Couldn't you argue that the language barrier itself
is the real problem?

[10:42] Marianne McCann: I see that from time to time

[10:42] Gordon Wendt: not sure how many people communicate with people who use Chinese, Japanese, Korean, middle eastern or slavic
languages but those have a tendency to break IM to email either recieving in your email or replying via the fast reply

[10:43] Poid Mahovlich: yes Blondin u could

[10:43] Poid Mahovlich: a standard sl translator would rock

[10:43] Ciaran Laval: Also how long do you get to reply to an im from email? Is it a day or two?

[10:43] Gordon Wendt: Blondin, see above, there are technical issues, and it's particularly bad for the issues that top replying
due to bad encoding since you lose your single use reply key

[10:43] Poid Mahovlich: again a feature

[10:43] Taka Linden: a couple days

[10:44] Lowri Mills: I communicate with people all over the world

[10:44] Lowri Mills: daily

[10:44] Gordon Wendt: Taka, cleaning that up each day must be one heck of a chron job

[10:44] Lowri Mills: and they have a terrible time

[10:44] Poid Mahovlich: imagine having a translator option bolted on as a feature - and again cud be costed as a premium feature
....

[10:44] Poid Mahovlich: depending

[10:44] BlueGin Yifu: a standard issue translator for all in SL would be revolutionary. Would rock this world.

[10:44] Poid Mahovlich: yup

[10:44] Poid Mahovlich: that would open a HUGE comms door for SL

[10:44] Ciaran Laval: Gordon is that issue still about with characters not counting the size correctly?

[10:44] Lowri Mills: we have 6000 arabic people coming in and we can't even give them a notecard

[10:45] Marianne McCann: Not good, Lowri

[10:45] BlueGin Yifu: Can you imagine? It would be a world first, I think.

[10:45] Biancaluce Robbiani: ahahahah i feel like snow is coming brrrr

[10:45] Biancaluce Robbiani: lol

[10:45] Biancaluce Robbiani: ;)

[10:45] Lowri Mills: The Chinese are locked out of the voice do to ISPs

[10:45] Blondin Linden: wow Lowri! 6000!

[10:45] Ciaran Laval: Mari what's this Sparkle Im?

[10:45] Poid Mahovlich: however not sure the processing power would cope - since even group messages is a pain - adding a
translator would push thing in the tech to burn out I suspect

[10:45] Gordon Wendt: Ciaran, I think there's a different one now, some characters will actually make the system discard the
reply, so say someone sends you an IM, it gets sent to your email you try to reply quoting that IM but that IM contains a strange
character, the reply doesn't go through because it got rejected by LL's server and you cannot try again because the reply code you get with your IM via email is a one time code

[10:46] Lowri Mills: so are some Middle East Countries

[10:46] Gordon Wendt: I'll try to find the JIRA

[10:46] Lowri Mills: we can get more, it it is stable

[10:46] Lowri Mills: we are handing out pdf's and textures on SL

[10:46] Blondin Linden: There is a PJira out there that Philip has going about the Snowglobe viewer and translations

[10:46] Blondin Linden: Hvae you seen it?

[10:46] Biancaluce Robbiani: the issue of arabian or simmilar characters is something discussed in another OH with Blue too

[10:46] MSo Lambert: Gordon, are you sure the IM session code is a one-time thing? I've successfully replied multiple times to a
same email IM before....

[10:46] Poid Mahovlich: nope Blondin

[10:47] Blondin Linden: really?

[10:47] Blondin Linden: Ok, let me go find the link

[10:47] Poid Mahovlich: really I been away 3 weeks not caught up yet

[10:47] Blondin Linden: you should all vote on it. Its a good feature to implement.

[10:47] Lexie Linden: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-93

[10:47] Douglas Rishmal is Online

[10:47] Cody Bracken is Online

[10:47] Poid Mahovlich: wicked ty

[10:47] Lexie Linden: ㋡

[10:48] Gordon Wendt: Haven't tried the client translator yet but it seems to be getting rave reviews on the sldev list

[10:48] Yann Dufaux: lexie i test this, but not now ㋡

[10:48] Poid Mahovlich: trying to follow all developments in SL is a task in itself - i wish the tech blog was more - how shall I
put it - compelling and featured more ?

[10:48] Lexie Linden: ok : )

[10:48] Yann Dufaux: well with the client translator its a very nice work!

[10:49] Taka Linden: How about SMS?

[10:49] Taka Linden: Would anyone use SMS in or out?

[10:49] Blondin Linden: i would love to get IMs in SMS form

[10:49] Ludo Merit: SMS?

[10:49] Poid Mahovlich: wud be cool

[10:49] Blondin Linden: :)

[10:49] Yann Dufaux: you can talk in any language, and the viewer translate in your setting pref ㋡

[10:49] Lowri Mills: yes, I have it on now

[10:49] Ciaran Laval: SMS would interest me, but would i be able to send in or only reply?

[10:49] Lowri Mills: it tells me one person here speaks French

[10:49] MSo Lambert: I would love SMS in/out, even as a paid feature

[10:49] Lowri Mills: and translates

[10:50] Marianne McCann: Blondin - yes, the option would be great. Or maybe from particular people (not all) for those who have a
capped amount of SMS traffic

[10:50] Poid Mahovlich: this would be a cool feature - depending on cost ? actually you can set up free sms and add a 'sponsors
text'

[10:50] Blondin Linden: I would think both Ci would be most useful

[10:50] Poid Mahovlich: so qualifies as marketing

[10:50] Blondin Linden: sponsor texts?

[10:50] Yann Dufaux: well, just don't work in ims, but with the privacy ruls i know te reason ㋡

[10:51] Poid Mahovlich: yes cell in the UK allow a limited free sms - orange for example and add at the bottom www,orange.co.uk

[10:51] Gordon Wendt: sponsored texting service? isn't LL already getting sued, seems like this would be just asking for someone
to sue them again if they bring a marketing firm into SL

[10:51] Gordon Wendt: targetted advertising and all that

[10:51] Poid Mahovlich: i ment add www.secondlife.com to the free SMS :)

[10:51] Ciaran Laval: See that's the problem with im to email, I can't get hold of my minions easily, whereas if I could do it via
SMS that would be superb

[10:51] Gordon Wendt: I love the idea of SMS but the idea of sponsored SMS no matter how you did it would cause problems I think

[10:52] Poid Mahovlich: not another mobile sponsor - however - that is not impossible idea ....

[10:52] Poid Mahovlich: grab at & T :)

[10:52] Poid Mahovlich: investors - might bite as something like this - know knows

[10:52] Poid Mahovlich: who*

[10:53] Poid Mahovlich: why problems business is business?

[10:53] Taka Linden: How about your.avatar@secondlife.com?

[10:53] Poid Mahovlich: investors cud allow cash growth to invest in new tech

[10:53] Gordon Wendt: and users are incredibly irrational

[10:53] Ciaran Laval: That has potential Taka

[10:53] Biancaluce Robbiani: Btw talking about communication... a thing I would love to know is if there is anymore any Second
Life Radio...

[10:53] Marianne McCann: Taka - I would *love* to have that

[10:53] Taka Linden: Would a personal email alias be helpful for folks, or just one more email address?

[10:53] Blondin Linden: that was some other feedback we got from the blog

[10:54] MSo Lambert: I've used my.avatar@gmail.com for quite a while now, not sure about yet another email address, unless it came
with extra integrated features :)

[10:54] Poid Mahovlich: depends taka what benefits it had - how big a mail box and features

[10:54] Rihanna Laasonen: Another "nice for premiums" feature -- email address for you rav.

[10:54] Poid Mahovlich: gmail rocks currently

[10:54] Taka Linden: OK

[10:54] Rihanna Laasonen: your av, even.

[10:54] Marianne McCann: Taka - for me it would be a useful addition. It would help, IMO, add a level of professionalism to those
of us doing business in here.

[10:54] Biancaluce Robbiani: I agree

[10:54] Ciaran Laval: I agree with Mari on that point

[10:54] Gordon Wendt: Taka, it would b ecool, I could set all my SLX email spam to go in a loop from my LL email to my Gordon
Wendt Gmail account back to my LL email and so on

[10:54] Ludo Merit: Would it be one more email address, or really one more email client? I have enough trouble using the one I've
got

[10:54] Gordon Wendt: SL email rather, not LL email

[10:55] Taka Linden: depends on how we'd implement it, I suppose

[10:55] Blondin Linden: i was going to say Gordon!!!

[10:55] Poid Mahovlich: well u cud attach the second life one to ya gmail and have the best of both worlds :)

[10:55] Poid Mahovlich: a secondlife email addy and gmail features

[10:55] Marianne McCann: I would prefer it be usable as a forward to my non-SL account or elsewhere though, rather than a separate
e-mail system (web mail, etc) I'd have to read.

[10:55] Ciaran Laval: Also yesterday people were saying they'd like to be able to im in via a standard messenger such as Yim or
MSN. Not sure how feasible that is

[10:55] Poid Mahovlich: *assumes the position

[10:56] Taka Linden: Would IM interoperability interest people?

[10:56] Marianne McCann: Naw, I prefer my IMs integrated with the client

[10:56] Poid Mahovlich: yes Taka

[10:56] Taka Linden: or Skype interoperability?

[10:56] Marianne McCann: Taka - yes

[10:56] Gordon Wendt: and I'd have no qualms about doing that, speaking of communication, you should have a quiet word with the PR
team and tell them to stop sending advert emails unless we specifically op in

[10:56] Gordon Wendt: none of this opt out bullshit

[10:56] Marianne McCann: and yes

[10:56] Poid Mahovlich: yes deffo skype

[10:56] Sitearm Madonna: @Gordon I agree -

[10:56] Sitearm Madonna: :)

[10:56] Blondin Linden: I've seen people ask for better lip syncing as well. Don't really know if that would count as a
communication tool

[10:56] Taka Linden: Would there be any issues related to Skype having some real names?

[10:56] Poid Mahovlich: skype is the leading online comms of choice so why not utilize that ?

[10:56] Gordon Wendt: This is another statement I'm willing to say I think there's wide community support for

[10:56] Marianne McCann: Gordon - surely you wanted to know all about that fashion show

[10:57] Poid Mahovlich: give a choice regarding names Taka

[10:57] Gordon Wendt: Taka, umm..... yes

[10:57] Biancaluce Robbiani: Hi Joao

[10:57] Marianne McCann: Marianne McCann has a Skype account /me winks

[10:57] Taka Linden: OK

[10:57] joao Mastroianni: Hello everyone :-))

[10:57] Taka Linden: This is great.

[10:57] Poid Mahovlich: bussiness and personal - RL name or avatar - choices are important

[10:58] Taka Linden: I really appreciate the input.

[10:58] Gordon Wendt: Marianne, of course, I'm actually one of the largest fashion designers in SL in disguise, I just left my
high heels in my inventory for today :)

[10:58] Lowri Mills: so does Lowri Mills

[10:58] Gordon Wendt: lol

[10:58] joao Mastroianni: Bianca :)

[10:58] Biancaluce Robbiani: The radio when I started was a good way to communicate from LL side to all or from a sort of official
channel...

[10:58] Poid Mahovlich: radio SL wud be cool

[10:58] BlueGin Yifu: Are you talking about making these communication tools part of SL or do you mean everyone within SL should
get these also? Then, do we need separate accounts for our RL and SL selves? Gets confusing and I do not know how many casual
players will do this.

[10:58] Poid Mahovlich: as a official channel

[10:58] Marianne McCann: Yes, Radio Linden. That's one old product

[10:58] Gordon Wendt: Blondin, people are also asking for it to be on by default and have the option to turn it off hidden so deep
as to make it essentially mandatory, that doesn't mean it isn't a horrible idea

[10:59] Gordon Wendt: lip sync should be the lowest priority possible

[10:59] Rihanna Laasonen: Radio and podcasting are both nice passive channels to reach people who

[10:59]  Poid Mahovlich: good easy comms - unless yr non english speaking

[10:59] Marianne McCann: Shame that and the old info boards are so, well, unused.

[10:59] Gordon Wendt: in my opinion

[10:59] Blondin Linden: :)

[10:59] Lowri Mills: with tutorials on it would be good

[10:59] Rihanna Laasonen: wouldn't necessarily hunt up the blogs, and they've both been abandoned.

[10:59] Gordon Wendt: Blondin, I know we have like 1 minute left but are you guys going to do something about making the new boards actually usable?

[10:59] Gordon Wendt: the new forum boards I mean

[11:00] Poid Mahovlich: which boards Gordon?

[11:00] Poid Mahovlich: k

[11:00] Poid Mahovlich: yeah web site needs a tweak in functionality

[11:00] BlueGin Yifu: Is our purpose to discuss how LL can communicate to residents or how we can all communicate within SL? The
goal is to communicate with SL, isn't it? Not how do we communicate external to SL.

[11:00] Biancaluce Robbiani: yes... and as far as I could see .. listening in english is good to improve so .. Radio feature is a good tutorial way

[11:00] Gordon Wendt: the new commerce board, eventually to be the whole forum, currently they are incredibly unusable, IF YOU GO LIVE WITH MOVING EVERYTHING OVER YOU WILL LOSE RESIDENTS

[11:00] Gordon Wendt: sorry for the caps but that needed to be shouted

[11:00] BlueGin Yifu: *WITHIN SL

[11:01] Blondin Linden: hey all, Taka and I need to go.

[11:01] Rihanna Laasonen dittos Gordon.

[11:01] Blondin Linden: But this was a good turn out

[11:01] Blondin Linden: Lots of useful info

[11:01] Lexie Linden: Great discussion ㋡

[11:01] Sitearm Madonna: shall you post a summary ?

[11:01] Taka Linden: Thanks again, everyone.

[11:01] Gordon Wendt: and of course I get ignored by the Lindens

[11:01] Ciaran Laval: Cheers Blondin, shall we just camp here till you come back? ;)

[11:01] Marianne McCann: You're welcome! :-)

[11:01] Torben Trautman waves

[11:01] Blondin Linden: I will clean up the chat log

[11:01] Torben Trautman: bye all

[11:01] Sitearm Madonna: on the blog or sumpin :) ?

[11:01] Poid Mahovlich: ty all

[11:01] Marianne McCann: See ya later today, Blondin

[11:01] Blondin Linden: and have a transcript for those who ask

[11:01] Lowri Mills: Thank you, for the time and discussion

[11:01] Taka Linden: Gordon, thanks for joining!

[11:01] Ciaran Laval: Thanks Taka and Lexie

[11:01] Taka Linden: really good insights

User:Blondin Linden/Commtools 16SEP09

2009-09-17T02:43:12Z

Gordon Wendt: spacing

Office Hours Meeting Notes 16-Sep-2009

Topic: Communication Tools

Participants (21):

* {{User|Biancaluce Robbiani}}
* {{User|Blondin Linden}}
* {{User|Bluegin Yifu}}
* {{User|Ciaran Laval}}
* {{User|Daniel Voyager}}
* {{User|Ella Mcmahon}}
* {{User|Gordon Went}}
* {{User|Joao Miastroianni}}
* {{User|Kris Darmoset}}
* {{User|Lexie Linden}}
* {{User|Lowri Mills}}
* {{User|Ludo Merit}}
* {{User|Marianne Mccann}}
* {{User|Mso Lambert}}
* {{User|Poid Mahovlich}}
* {{User|Rihanna Laasonen}}
* {{User|Sitearm Madonna}}
* {{User|Surfaqua Oh}}
* {{User|Taka Linden}}
* {{User|Torben Trautman}}
* {{User|Yann Dufaux}}

[10:03] Blondin Linden: Well, I suppose we can begin. Thanks all for coming! This meeting was a result of some of the feedback we got from the Avaline blog post

[10:03] Ciaran Laval: :P Gordon

[10:04] Gordon Wendt: was the feedback that most users wanted nothing to do with it and that LL was wasting their time?

[10:04] Blondin Linden: I don't know if you all had a chance to read it, but Taka here was interested in engaging outside of the comments and getting a wider view of how we can better improve commnication tools in SL.

[10:04] Blondin Linden: Something along those lines Gordon :)

[10:05] Taka Linden: Yes. How many of you are using AvaLine now?

[10:05] Gordon Wendt: I think most users want groups to work, IM's to work, and for commiunication via notecard not to be the only reliable option

[10:05] Taka Linden: or Skype?

[10:05] Gordon Wendt: or SLVoice? nobody uses that either

[10:05] Gordon Wendt: groups being group IM's in this context

[10:05] Ciaran Laval: I didn't extend my Avaline usage beyond the beta test

[10:05] Lowri Mills: we use SL Voice

[10:05] Ludo Merit: Using Skype, and SL voice. I sing a capella in it

[10:06] Daniel Voyager: I use Skype mostly.

[10:06] Blondin Linden: I think a lot of the feedback we got was that Skype was the prefered method of communication

[10:06] BlueGin Yifu: I do not know what the Avaline blog is; so I guess that's the first thing I have to say about communications. hehe

[10:06] Lowri Mills: we are finding firewalls in the middle east and some Chinese ISPs that block it

[10:06] Blondin Linden: I'll find the link Blue Gin

[10:06] Ciaran Laval: Avaline might be useful for some very big companies but it falls flat for the average user

[10:06] Marianne McCann: I beta tested Avaline.

[10:06] Gordon Wendt: even if some people do use it, because so many people used/use skype it seems like there was a lot of
duplicated effort that only achieved splitting the community into using two incompatible systems

[10:06] Daniel Voyager: Twitter and Plurk seems to be getting popular these days. :p

[10:07] Daniel Voyager: with SL

[10:07] Lexie Linden: good point Daniel

[10:07] Taka Linden: Do people use Twitter and Plurk for the same kind of messaging as Group Chat?

[10:07] Ciaran Laval: Do you guys have an Avaline number for support calls?

[10:07] Taka Linden: they seem like quite different tools to me

[10:08] Blondin Linden: https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/features/blog/2009/08/19/bye-bye-beta-avaline-dial-an-avatar-is-now-
available-to-all-avatars

[10:08] SunnyBoy Arashi: i do not have , don't know so much about it

[10:08] Taka Linden: As for AvaLine as a way to reach support, it is not currently an option.

[10:08] Ludo Merit: It would never have occurred to me to use twitter for chat

[10:08] Poid Mahovlich: Twitter and Plurk can virus a message much faster

[10:08] Gordon Wendt: having to watch both twitter and plurk is a pain

[10:08] Marianne McCann: Agreed, Poid

[10:08] Rihanna Laasonen: Why is faster better?

[10:08] Ciaran Laval: Ah thanks Taka, I think that would be a good way of showcasing Avaline if you did offer that as an option.

[10:08] Taka Linden: Good idea.

[10:08] Poid Mahovlich: Gordon so get a tool to view all at once - ire friend feed

[10:08] Blondin Linden: I use Plurk. I find it a great tool to pass links and news about whats going on

[10:09] Ludo Merit: I won't use anything I have to pay more for, such as Avaline

[10:09] Blondin Linden: I like the Karma :)

[10:09] Biancaluce Robbiani: there are some abrogators Gordon for that?

[10:09] Gordon Wendt: Taka, of course not, that would be proof that LL has confidence in avaline as a platform and you can't have
that :)

[10:09] Rihanna Laasonen: Notices sent to e-mail give us an easy record to refer back to -- if they just worked.

[10:09] Gordon Wendt: *that

[10:09] Poid Mahovlich: yeah avaline is a needless expense imho

[10:09] Gordon Wendt: second what Rihanna just said

[10:09] Taka Linden: Actually, the support team has a very specific set of needs, and AvaLine was not designed to serve those "use
cases"

[10:10] Taka Linden: though it definitely could be helpful in some circumstances

[10:10] Ciaran Laval: Avaline is useful for ambitious business within SL, you can offer worldwide phone access

[10:10] Petra Linden is Online

[10:10] Poid Mahovlich: what was it's parameters specifically then Taka?

[10:10] Marianne McCann: I've yet to find a good use of AvaLine with my clients, at least not any that Skype isn't already handling

[10:10] Gordon Wendt: As I said before though, I think there is a pretty strong consensus among users that they don't want new
communications tools, they want the existing tools to do what they're advertised to do and supposed to do

[10:11] Poid Mahovlich: *nods

[10:11] BlueGin Yifu: agree

[10:11] Lowri Mills: yes

[10:11] Rihanna Laasonen: ?me nods vigorously.

[10:11] Ludo Merit nods too

[10:11] Taka Linden: This first edition of AvaLine is intended simply to allow someone inworld to stay in touch with people who
are not online

[10:11] Gordon Wendt: Can I assume that there is an internal team at LL that handles comm. tools?

[10:11] Ciaran Laval: I don't mind new tools if they offer better functionality than the current tools, group chat and notices is
rather clunky

[10:11] Lexie Linden: Hi Yann and Surf

[10:11] Surfaqua Oh: hello

[10:12] MSo Lambert: Hi all

[10:12] Taka Linden: Do any of you run inworld businesses?

[10:12] Lowri Mills: and we need notecards that read arabic

[10:12] Lowri Mills: yes

[10:12] SunnyBoy Arashi: sorry all gota go some one need help

[10:12] Lowri Mills: I do

[10:12] Marianne McCann: Taka - what would be the second edition of AvaLine, then?

[10:12] Biancaluce Robbiani: hya Surf, Yann

[10:12] Gordon Wendt: Ciaran, if they could rewrite and supersede old tools in functionality I'd agree

[10:12] Lowri Mills: languagelab.com

[10:12] SunnyBoy Arashi: c ya next time

[10:12] Poid Mahovlich: ok - so avaline falls a little short as tools already exists that work and are better no offense

[10:12] Ludo Merit: Small one

[10:12] Marianne McCann: Ya, that

[10:12] Rihanna Laasonen: Yes, and IM works fine for my small business. Avaline has no

[10:12] Rihanna Laasonen: purpose for me.

[10:13] Taka Linden: Future versions of AvaLine will expand the inworld audience, so a caller could participate in group
conversations, not just one-to-one voice chat.

[10:13] Rihanna Laasonen: Better IM would be nice, but I've no need for voice-related anything.

[10:13] Lowri Mills: we use SL Voice

[10:13] Lowri Mills: and group chat

[10:13] Poid Mahovlich: does avaline work for anyone you know of ? I'd be interested to hear a positive also on this

[10:13] Blondin Linden: So if you all could create a wish list of things you wanted fixed, wanted to see, what would you include?

[10:13] Gordon Wendt: Taka, yes, a business and a group utilizing Mentor resource.

[10:14] Ludo Merit: That would come in handy, Taka, though there's a program out there to do that already, which, unfortunately
for me, costs money.

[10:14] Taka Linden: Some of the biggest praise has come from the education community, where non-PC access to people inworld is
proving important.

[10:14] Marianne McCann: Voice is okay, but a lot of my clients seem to want to use text, mainly for a written record.

[10:14] Gordon Wendt: albeit a fairly quiet one

[10:14] Ciaran Laval: Ok look im's get capped at 25, that needs fixing somehow

[10:14] Poid Mahovlich: first of main connective tool is the SL blog - which is improved - but still yet not fully utilized

[10:14] Gordon Wendt: Blondin, Group Chat, Group Notices, IM Chat, Inventory, Teleporting, Pie

[10:14] Poid Mahovlich: off*

[10:14] Ciaran Laval: or some other number, it's around 25 I think, or is it size based?

[10:14] Biancaluce Robbiani: as I could see many residents do not like voice chat so far... but any change in that direction is
glad IMHO

[10:14] Lowri Mills: We teach English and other languages, we need voice

[10:14] Ludo Merit: If you come up with an equally good group phone feature that costs less I might use it eventually

[10:15] Poid Mahovlich: oh we talking inworld?>

[10:15] Rihanna Laasonen: In-world/out-world IM that's better than replying to previous IM's-to-email.

[10:15] BlueGin Yifu: Is the main issue here what tools to use in communicating? Or is the issue how to have clearer
communications? Or all of this?

[10:15] Rihanna Laasonen: Group notices that work, and more groups.

[10:15] Biancaluce Robbiani: Educators too are split in 2 opposite points of view

[10:15] Lowri Mills: yes, our notices didn't work today

[10:15] Rihanna Laasonen: The ability to NOT communicate -- to turn off group chat without blocking local communication.

[10:15] Poid Mahovlich: yeah I'd be happy if the basics worked - then move to additions and so on

[10:15] Yann Dufaux: burned :p

[10:15] Taka Linden: Lowri Mills: Please tell me more about how Notices didn't work for you today.

[10:16] Blondin Linden: yes, I agree the 25 group limit tends to be annoying when you've maxed out

[10:16] Biancaluce Robbiani: Communication in sharing same document would a big thing too

[10:16] Poid Mahovlich: however again I do feel the main blog is still not up 2 speed in terms of actually use

[10:16] Biancaluce Robbiani: thing*

[10:16] Lowri Mills: we had a teacher out with the flu, and she sent 3 notices , none of them worked

[10:16] Lowri Mills: but those around 4am did work

[10:16] Yann Dufaux: aw, more of 25 group could be very great ㋡

[10:16] Poid Mahovlich: as ever

[10:16] Taka Linden: Hmmm. Did she tell customer support?

[10:16] Poid Mahovlich: that old chestnut

[10:16] Lowri Mills: it just happened

[10:17] Marianne McCann: I'm *always* maxed out on groups. The current group/IM framework may have worked in 2003, but it's pretty
overworked in 2009

[10:17] Lowri Mills: it happens on an off

[10:17] Ludo Merit: Haven't we mentors been asking for more than 25 for years? There must be a reason why not or we'd have 'em.

[10:17] Taka Linden: How many groups would you like?

[10:17] Taka Linden: if you could have any number?

[10:17] Taka Linden: How many do you need?

[10:17] Gordon Wendt: Blondin, there are several proposed solutions for that, LL just has to take the initiative, the most popular
and the most realistic to implement I think is the proposal to change it to two types of groups

[10:17] Poid Mahovlich: realistically another 10 - no need to be greedy

[10:17] Ciaran Laval: as manay as I can get

[10:17] Gordon Wendt: which would lessen load enough to allow more groups

[10:17] Yann Dufaux: Taka, 35 of 40 groups ㋡

[10:17] Daniel Voyager: 35+

[10:18] Biancaluce Robbiani: yes Ludo... I agree... more than 25 is a big tech mess I guess

[10:18] Lowri Mills: I may not need so many groups if I had more roles and different tools

[10:18] Marianne McCann: To be honest, given the current method of groups for announcements, for build access, etc, I would be
*comfortable* with 35-50, but would prefer not having a cap

[10:18] Poid Mahovlich: I assumed groups was a no go - due to computing and processing ? it doesn't work not - so with a group
increase the problems would also increase - so it pie in the sky

[10:18] Lowri Mills: where you could have different roles receive notices

[10:18] Yann Dufaux: but with the possibility to fusion the parallel group

[10:18] Taka Linden: The reason there is a group limit at all is to manage system overload. But we do hear loudly and clearly that
25 is too low for many residents.

[10:18] Poid Mahovlich: now*

[10:18] Gordon Wendt: Ludo, agreed, we have 1 official and what 3 or 4 unofficial but necessary groups?

[10:18] Ludo Merit: Well, if people would use groups more wisely, I might be able to get along with 25, but people are using
groups for things they could use subscriber lists for, and using multiple groups instead of roles in groups

[10:18] Yann Dufaux: lite a hotmail emails fusion ㋡

[10:18] Yann Dufaux: like*

[10:19] Marianne McCann: True, Poid. The whole *system* needs an update. It's pretty fundamentally limited

[10:19] Ludo Merit: But there's a reason for that. If we could send notices to a group role instead of the whole group, we'd need
fewer groups

[10:19] Gordon Wendt: Taka, are you hearing our proposed solutions on the JIRA to lower that load?

[10:19] Poid Mahovlich: Taka can a new work about like subscribe o matic be implemented ? and broadly used?

[10:19] Taka Linden: What percentage of group messages are really one-way messages from businesses trying to promote their
offerings?

[10:19] Biancaluce Robbiani: Imagine to have to handle connections for over 25 groups for each of us..... sorting residents on line etc .. a big bunch of data may cause big crashes

[10:19] Ciaran Laval: I'm with Gordon on moving to a two kinds of group system, how many land groups I need is not the same as asking how many groups I'd like to receive notices from

[10:19] Taka Linden: subscribeomatic is interesting

[10:19] Rihanna Laasonen: Most of the useful message are, IMO.

[10:19] Marianne McCann: This is not a criticism, simply a note that SL has grown to a point where it needs a more scalable system
in place for that

[10:19] Guy Linden is Online

[10:19] Taka Linden: does anyone here use subscribeomatic?

[10:20] Ludo Merit: Yes

[10:20] Yann Dufaux: if i have a group to support and other customer update, i need to did a fusion of group to send notices or proposal one times for the two group ㋡

[10:20] Marianne McCann: Ciaran - I've long advocated creating a build/script access list into the estate or parcel information.

[10:20] Biancaluce Robbiani: we should have a free "subscibing system" for example

[10:20] Ciaran Laval: I'm in some subscribe-o-matic groups and I've used Hipp groups which is a similar thing

[10:20] Blondin Linden: Gordon, Ciaran, is there a Jira for that?

[10:20] Marianne McCann: Do away with needing a "rez group" entirely

[10:20] Ludo Merit: It's free so I can use it.

[10:20] Gordon Wendt: yes, one second and I'll try to find it

[10:20] Poid Mahovlich: or set up an out of world system perhaps - maybe for premium users ? so they can have as many groups as they like - a separate connections area which is web based ..... outside box soltions

[10:20] Gordon Wendt: unless Ciaran has a link handy

[10:20] Ciaran Laval: Hippo Groups

[10:21] Ludo Merit: Cost money

[10:21] Biancaluce Robbiani: is it free?

[10:21] Ciaran Laval: No Gordon, unfortunately I don't have them handy

[10:21] Ciaran Laval: Marianne that's a good proposal on scripted access in the parcel

[10:21] Poid Mahovlich: I know many would be happy to pay an extra premium for additional groups offers

[10:22] Marianne McCann: Ciaran - thanks. It would cut several groups from my must have list

[10:22] Lowri Mills: now that is a good idea

[10:22] Blondin Linden: Poid, that would be a neat feature for premium accounts, an incentive perhaps to upgrade

[10:22] Lowri Mills: I would pay for extra roles, groups, etc

[10:22] Rihanna Laasonen: More groups seems an obvious solution to the "How to make premium worthwhile" question.

[10:22] Poid Mahovlich: yus exactly

[10:22] Gordon Wendt: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2833 is the general issue and http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2816 is the specific issue for the separate types

[10:22] Poid Mahovlich: do in in RL bussiness - so do it here

[10:22] BlueGin Yifu: Group chat can be so annoying. Subscribeomatic is good for most big groups and shows.

[10:22] Marianne McCann: Ciaran: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-12078

[10:23] Poid Mahovlich: *nods at BlueGin

[10:23] Ciaran Laval: Cheers Mari

[10:23] Marianne McCann grins

[10:23] Gordon Wendt: that's another one that could be implemented, none of them are exclusively viable so all or some of them could be implemented it seems

[10:23] Rihanna Laasonen: We really need the granularity on which group chat to hear.

[10:24] Taka Linden: Got it.

[10:24] Poid Mahovlich: but make a subscrobe o matic a standard SL feature or a premium one

[10:24] Biancaluce Robbiani: if we suppose that is not possible to increase inworld group numbers... why don't offer a
subscriptomatic official mechanism?

[10:24] Taka Linden: So opt-in group messages?

[10:24] Poid Mahovlich: ha exactly Bianca

[10:24]  BlueGin Yifu: yes

[10:24] Gordon Wendt: having scriptable group invites would be a good way to deal with subscribe-o-matic type experience

[10:24] Rihanna Laasonen: Opt-in, that we can turn on or off easily.

[10:24] Lowri Mills: I like the feature where we can now add the person's card into group chat, instead of making another group

[10:24] Ciaran Laval: Opt-in is always the nicer solution

[10:24] Gordon Wendt: if they raised groups

[10:24] Rihanna Laasonen: And make sure to handle notices and chat separately.

[10:24] Taka Linden: OK. This is great feedback.

[10:24] Marianne McCann: true, Gordon

[10:24] Poid Mahovlich: opt in with control even - imagine

[10:25] Poid Mahovlich: its a basic bolt one in actual fact

[10:25] Poid Mahovlich: on*

[10:25] Ludo Merit: My problem with turning off groups is that they don't come back on the way they used to, so if I turn one off
I don't hear it again unless I remember to turn it on.

[10:25] Poid Mahovlich: yeah a setting for that wud be good

[10:25] Poid Mahovlich: again to give options and control

[10:26] Poid Mahovlich: group chat on/off/

[10:26] Gordon Wendt: llGroupInvite, llGroupEject, should be implemented, group invite would send a standard group invite and
would have to be only usable in touch and have a mute button to prevent spamming

[10:26] BlueGin Yifu: great idea, poid

[10:26] Marianne McCann: Agreed

[10:26] Gordon Wendt: don't have a JIRA for that but would be good

[10:26] Ciaran Laval: That would also cut down on the need for group inviter bots

[10:26] Poid Mahovlich: eject how many times do u see a group chat spammer muted - who only relogs and is right back at it

[10:26] Yann Dufaux: protection against flood of voice/group request ㋡

[10:27] Blondin Linden: Good point Ciaran. You know how I'm such a fan of bots

[10:27] Gordon Wendt: oh, group banning is a feature that is desperately needed

[10:27] Ciaran Laval: Yes Blondin, we've noticed ;)

[10:27] Torben Trautman: hi there

[10:27] Gordon Wendt: you should be able to ban people from groups

[10:27] Yann Dufaux: hi Torben ㋡

[10:27] Gordon Wendt: we need a group ban feature

[10:27] Biancaluce Robbiani: some other viewers )I've heard) allow ppl to take down all friend list and other data and they use it
for spam purposes (that is the reverse face of the medal)

[10:27] Poid Mahovlich: a perm on/ off mute for group and individuals is also useful - but would have to show the avatar who is
perm muted - so there is a chance to undo :P

[10:27] Marianne McCann: Amen, Gordon

[10:27] Blondin Linden: a group ban feature?

[10:28] Gordon Wendt: chat spam because of chat lag

[10:28] Poid Mahovlich: as ever

[10:28] Gordon Wendt: one sec, I'll grab the link to that

[10:28] Biancaluce Robbiani: too much ideas here lol chat lag

[10:28] Yann Dufaux: chat voice , in group = chat lag for other (i think ..)

[10:28] Gordon Wendt: yeah Blondin, an ability to have a banlist for a group to ban avatars from joining

[10:28] Poid Mahovlich: Blondin u can eject a group member - they can if the group is set to open enrol rejoin again

[10:28] Poid Mahovlich: is a pain in the *CENSORED*

[10:28] Gordon Wendt: yeah, what poid said

[10:28] Poid Mahovlich: so effectively you can not perm ban

[10:29] Ludo Merit: I ask

[10:29] Poid Mahovlich: from a group

[10:29] Gordon Wendt: this shouldn't be confused with the request some extremists have to be able to ban people from property
based on the groups they're in

[10:29] Blondin Linden: oh I get it poid

[10:29] Poid Mahovlich: yeah that Gordon is in my opinion not needed

[10:29] Gordon Wendt: something for you to clean up

[10:29] Gordon Wendt: HIPPOS

[10:29] Gordon Wendt: that is all :)

[10:29] Poid Mahovlich: *nods

[10:29] Ciaran Laval: Apologise for throwing an aside in here, but does anyone use Slim?

[10:29] Ciaran Laval: apologies even

[10:29] Poid Mahovlich: nope

[10:30] Lowri Mills: nope

[10:30] Biancaluce Robbiani: no

[10:30] Sitearm Madonna waves

[10:30] Marianne McCann: Ciaran - I have used it a time or two, but not with much seriousness

[10:30] Ludo Merit: Slim?

[10:30] Biancaluce Robbiani: ㋡

[10:30] Ran Hienrichs is Online

[10:30] Marianne McCann: The only time i need a "SLim, well, I need something with more features, and use SparkleIM on my iPhone

[10:30] Blondin Linden: I have Slim , used it once or twice

[10:30] Taka Linden: has anyone used both subscribeomatic and hippo groups?

[10:30] Taka Linden: is one better than the other?

[10:30] Blondin Linden: it was helpful but wasn't widely adapted

[10:30] Taka Linden: or are they comparable

[10:30] Taka Linden: ?

[10:30] Poid Mahovlich: maybe a mas questionairre what do we need to communicate in SL - might help u guys get a better overview -
this is a small selection here - but is the same stuff and feedback I have heard for last 4 yrs

[10:30] Lowri Mills: no

[10:31] Marianne McCann: Ive used subscribeomatics. Like much

[10:31] Gordon Wendt: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2825

[10:31] Ludo Merit: Subscribeomatic is free for small groups, so it is better

[10:31] Yann Dufaux: whats hippo group?

[10:31] Poid Mahovlich: hippo is a rental system

[10:31] Sitearm Madonna: we use the bot method

[10:31] Gordon Wendt: that's the ban list request, it also has a duplicate with a lot of votes at http://jira.secondlife.com/browse
/SVC-2826

[10:31] Sitearm Madonna: it avoids griefers banned from the region getting back into the group

[10:31] Ciaran Laval: II've only ever used subscribe-o-matic as a customer, Hippo I've used as a merchant to send information,
they seem similar in purpose

[10:31] Poid Mahovlich: with additions to hippo u can do other stuff such a group subscribes etc

[10:32] Gordon Wendt: Ciaran, people shouldn't need to resort to bots to handle region and group control though, wouldn't you
agree?

[10:32] Poid Mahovlich: agreed Gordon

[10:32] Ciaran Laval: Absolutely Gordon

[10:32] Poid Mahovlich: there are work arounds a SL /LL system to get what is needed

[10:32] Sitearm Madonna: well I still think users have more programming numbers on hand to invent things than poor overwhelmed LL
does

[10:32] Poid Mahovlich: plan and simple

[10:32] Poid Mahovlich: plane*#

[10:33] Sitearm Madonna: ty Bianca

[10:33] Biancaluce Robbiani: yw

[10:33] Blondin Linden: Thanks for the Jira Gordon

[10:34] Gordon Wendt: Blondin, I linked and closed that second one I just linked as a duplicate of the first, but both have a ton
of votes

[10:34] MSo Lambert: hippoGroups are nicely integrated with their other products, like Hippo vendor, but some of our customers
(I'm Subscribe-O-Matic creator) say they are overwhelmed by too many features :) Subscribe-O-Matic is also strictly opt-in only,
while hippoGroups allow group owners to add avatar keys/names manually to their database.

[10:34] Gordon Wendt: that sounds underhanded

[10:35] Gordon Wendt: what's to stop a hippogroups owner from adding the w-hat database with a bot and spamming everyone

[10:35] Ciaran Laval: I think they discourage it, I dislike buying from a store and being spammed

[10:35] Gordon Wendt: and I use w-hat as an example because it can be easily pulled via bot if someone wanted to

[10:35] Poid Mahovlich: non Gordon it is possible but is not fail proof

[10:35] Gordon Wendt: <sigh> nothing ever is

[10:35] Taka Linden: How about voicemail? Has anyone tried it?

[10:36] Poid Mahovlich: true u can script by pass it so I am told ?

[10:36] Echo Linden is Offline

[10:36] Ciaran Laval: I tested it on Avaline but decided listening to my own message was a tad too sad!

[10:36] Taka Linden: :-)

[10:36] Poid Mahovlich: awww

[10:36] Marianne McCann: I have not used it aside form testing. It really hasn't been a need for me.

[10:36] Rihanna Laasonen: Taka, I don't use anything with voice and won't anytime in the next few years.

[10:36] Yann Dufaux: thanks Sietearm ㋡

[10:37] Rihanna Laasonen: It's just irrelevant -- I write, I want want written records.

[10:37] Gordon Wendt: same here, I keep my RL and my SL seperate

[10:37] Taka Linden: Apparently, each month between 8,000 and 12,000 inworld calls go unanswered

[10:37] Gordon Wendt: and voice would break that

[10:37] Rihanna Laasonen: I'm not here to sing.

[10:37] Marianne McCann: Rihanna - yes, I find the written record to be of a lot of use in some of my projects.

[10:37] Taka Linden: To me, that feels like a lot of missed communication.

[10:37] Poid Mahovlich: what do u mean by that Taka?

[10:37] Gordon Wendt: Taka, do you have stats about how many IM's go unanswered? now that would be an interesting stat

[10:37] Taka Linden: and an opportunity for us to enhance the service to help people connect

[10:37] Rihanna Laasonen: Voice is great as an option -- for presentations and concerts and such.

[10:38] Taka Linden: I don't have a similar stat on IMs, though it would be interesting.

[10:38] Rihanna Laasonen: But I think the focus on getting us all to use it as a primary communication tool is misled.

[10:38] MSo Lambert: I'm more worried how many IM's end up in a void when offline IMs cap :)

[10:38] Ciaran Laval: I like the option of voice, hardly ever use it but I like the option

[10:38] Ludo Merit: The thing about voice is that is so often has hum or static behind it

[10:38] BlueGin Yifu: What do you mean when you say IM's go unanswered?

[10:39] Gordon Wendt: I agree with MSO, capped IM's need to end, there has to be a better system

[10:39] Poid Mahovlich: So Taka - I am interested in why LL wud spend time and resource on Avaline when it maybe looks like skype
is being used more? how many calls were successfully connected ?

[10:39] Taka Linden: Gordon, please do explain. Are you asking about IMs that are capped, or simply not responded to?

[10:39] Sitearm Madonna: SL Voice is still about 90% reliable in a group of more than 3, where reliable means "it works for
everyone immediately first time" and that 10% not working is a time eater

[10:39] Taka Linden: I don't have an exact number for call success rate, but it is very high.

[10:39] Gordon Wendt: responding to MSO I meant capped by the system, currently they go to /dev/null which is unacceptable

[10:39] Poid Mahovlich: capped IM - just send to email - no more capped IM's

[10:40] Taka Linden: The reason we're building the AvaLine system is to lower the barriers to participation inworld.

[10:40] Ludo Merit: I already get so much email I can't read it

[10:40] Ciaran Laval: How reliable is im to email and vice versa?

[10:40] MSo Lambert: I was always wondering, is there a technical / architectural reason for the IM cap system?

[10:40] Poid Mahovlich: I meant how many calls were made with Aveline and over what time period Taka :)

[10:40] Rihanna Laasonen: Taka, AvaLine raises barriers. I don't even have a mic on my machine.

[10:40] Taka Linden: The ability to loop in people on phones is a big deal. One-to-one is only the first step.

[10:40] Blondin Linden: I get all my IMs to me email.

[10:40] Blondin Linden: ie, reliable for me

[10:41] Poid Mahovlich: ditto Blondin

[10:41] Lexie Linden: For me too

[10:41] Taka Linden: It's not a requirement.

[10:41] Blondin Linden: Are any of you having trouble with that?

[10:41] Gordon Wendt: Taka, it would require a huge undertaking and a total rewrite to how IM"s work but the only viable option I
can think of would be an inbox/outbox message style system, going to a halfway point between IM and email but within SL

[10:41] Ciaran Laval: How do you know you get them all :p

[10:41] Sitearm Madonna idly wonders when the iPhone SL Client is coming out *coff*

[10:41] Ludo Merit: I don't want to get phone calls from people on line when I am off line. Off line is MY time.

[10:41] Gordon Wendt: incidentally, a bit off topic but IM to email still has huge issues with non english characters

[10:41] Poid Mahovlich: I never get why peeps say my im's r capped as u can see em all in email - maybe a blog on this option to
clarify is needed?

[10:41] Sitearm Madonna: ooh ooh I bet the IM work rewrite would go hand in hand with the Group rewrite

[10:41] Marianne McCann: Sitearm. Then I'd never have to leave SL again.

[10:41] Marianne McCann winks

[10:41] MSo Lambert: Sitearm, try SparkleIM for iPhone :)

[10:41] Lowri Mills: Adroid SL Client

[10:42] Sitearm Madonna: lol Mar

[10:42] Blondin Linden: Im not that popular Ciaran. Are you informed when you've reached your IM limit?

[10:42] Sitearm Madonna: yikes MSo I that I was kidding!

[10:42] Biancaluce Robbiani: no troubles to get emailed ims but sometimes Im gets messed when you login and crash or they show up
late when you relog a few times after...

[10:42] Marianne McCann: I use SparkleIM already. Not bad, all in all. Still pretty limited

[10:42] Ciaran Laval: Poid some people don't like the option of im's to email

[10:42] Poid Mahovlich: U get told when you log in that IM's r capped

[10:42] Marianne McCann: "Your messages have been capped."

[10:42] Ciaran Laval: Blondin yeah you get a message when you login

[10:42] Poid Mahovlich: but still you get all to email if you enable that feature

[10:42] Blondin Linden: Gordon, what is the problem with non-English speakers? Couldn't you argue that the language barrier itself
is the real problem?

[10:42] Marianne McCann: I see that from time to time

[10:42] Gordon Wendt: not sure how many people communicate with people who use Chinese, Japanese, Korean, middle eastern or slavic
languages but those have a tendency to break IM to email either recieving in your email or replying via the fast reply

[10:43] Poid Mahovlich: yes Blondin u could

[10:43] Poid Mahovlich: a standard sl translator would rock

[10:43] Ciaran Laval: Also how long do you get to reply to an im from email? Is it a day or two?

[10:43] Gordon Wendt: Blondin, see above, there are technical issues, and it's particularly bad for the issues that top replying
due to bad encoding since you lose your single use reply key

[10:43] Poid Mahovlich: again a feature

[10:43] Taka Linden: a couple days

[10:44] Lowri Mills: I communicate with people all over the world

[10:44] Lowri Mills: daily

[10:44] Gordon Wendt: Taka, cleaning that up each day must be one heck of a chron job

[10:44] Lowri Mills: and they have a terrible time

[10:44] Poid Mahovlich: imagine having a translator option bolted on as a feature - and again cud be costed as a premium feature
....

[10:44] Poid Mahovlich: depending

[10:44] BlueGin Yifu: a standard issue translator for all in SL would be revolutionary. Would rock this world.

[10:44] Poid Mahovlich: yup

[10:44] Poid Mahovlich: that would open a HUGE comms door for SL

[10:44] Ciaran Laval: Gordon is that issue still about with characters not counting the size correctly?

[10:44] Lowri Mills: we have 6000 arabic people coming in and we can't even give them a notecard

[10:45] Marianne McCann: Not good, Lowri

[10:45] BlueGin Yifu: Can you imagine? It would be a world first, I think.

[10:45] Biancaluce Robbiani: ahahahah i feel like snow is coming brrrr

[10:45] Biancaluce Robbiani: lol

[10:45] Biancaluce Robbiani: ;)

[10:45] Lowri Mills: The Chinese are locked out of the voice do to ISPs

[10:45] Blondin Linden: wow Lowri! 6000!

[10:45] Ciaran Laval: Mari what's this Sparkle Im?

[10:45] Poid Mahovlich: however not sure the processing power would cope - since even group messages is a pain - adding a
translator would push thing in the tech to burn out I suspect

[10:45] Gordon Wendt: Ciaran, I think there's a different one now, some characters will actually make the system discard the
reply, so say someone sends you an IM, it gets sent to your email you try to reply quoting that IM but that IM contains a strange
character, the reply doesn't go through because it got rejected by LL's server and you cannot try again because the reply code you get with your IM via email is a one time code

[10:46] Lowri Mills: so are some Middle East Countries

[10:46] Gordon Wendt: I'll try to find the JIRA

[10:46] Lowri Mills: we can get more, it it is stable

[10:46] Lowri Mills: we are handing out pdf's and textures on SL

[10:46] Blondin Linden: There is a PJira out there that Philip has going about the Snowglobe viewer and translations

[10:46] Blondin Linden: Hvae you seen it?

[10:46] Biancaluce Robbiani: the issue of arabian or simmilar characters is something discussed in another OH with Blue too

[10:46] MSo Lambert: Gordon, are you sure the IM session code is a one-time thing? I've successfully replied multiple times to a
same email IM before....

[10:46] Poid Mahovlich: nope Blondin

[10:47] Blondin Linden: really?

[10:47] Blondin Linden: Ok, let me go find the link

[10:47] Poid Mahovlich: really I been away 3 weeks not caught up yet

[10:47] Blondin Linden: you should all vote on it. Its a good feature to implement.

[10:47] Lexie Linden: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-93

[10:47] Douglas Rishmal is Online

[10:47] Cody Bracken is Online

[10:47] Poid Mahovlich: wicked ty

[10:47] Lexie Linden: ㋡

[10:48] Gordon Wendt: Haven't tried the client translator yet but it seems to be getting rave reviews on the sldev list

[10:48] Yann Dufaux: lexie i test this, but not now ㋡

[10:48] Poid Mahovlich: trying to follow all developments in SL is a task in itself - i wish the tech blog was more - how shall I
put it - compelling and featured more ?

[10:48] Lexie Linden: ok : )

[10:48] Yann Dufaux: well with the client translator its a very nice work!

[10:49] Taka Linden: How about SMS?

[10:49] Taka Linden: Would anyone use SMS in or out?

[10:49] Blondin Linden: i would love to get IMs in SMS form

[10:49] Ludo Merit: SMS?

[10:49] Poid Mahovlich: wud be cool

[10:49] Blondin Linden: :)

[10:49] Yann Dufaux: you can talk in any language, and the viewer translate in your setting pref ㋡

[10:49] Lowri Mills: yes, I have it on now

[10:49] Ciaran Laval: SMS would interest me, but would i be able to send in or only reply?

[10:49] Lowri Mills: it tells me one person here speaks French

[10:49] MSo Lambert: I would love SMS in/out, even as a paid feature

[10:49] Lowri Mills: and translates

[10:50] Marianne McCann: Blondin - yes, the option would be great. Or maybe from particular people (not all) for those who have a
capped amount of SMS traffic

[10:50] Poid Mahovlich: this would be a cool feature - depending on cost ? actually you can set up free sms and add a 'sponsors
text'

[10:50] Blondin Linden: I would think both Ci would be most useful

[10:50] Poid Mahovlich: so qualifies as marketing

[10:50] Blondin Linden: sponsor texts?

[10:50] Yann Dufaux: well, just don't work in ims, but with the privacy ruls i know te reason ㋡

[10:51] Poid Mahovlich: yes cell in the UK allow a limited free sms - orange for example and add at the bottom www,orange.co.uk

[10:51] Gordon Wendt: sponsored texting service? isn't LL already getting sued, seems like this would be just asking for someone
to sue them again if they bring a marketing firm into SL

[10:51] Gordon Wendt: targetted advertising and all that

[10:51] Poid Mahovlich: i ment add www.secondlife.com to the free SMS :)

[10:51] Ciaran Laval: See that's the problem with im to email, I can't get hold of my minions easily, whereas if I could do it via
SMS that would be superb

[10:51] Gordon Wendt: I love the idea of SMS but the idea of sponsored SMS no matter how you did it would cause problems I think

[10:52] Poid Mahovlich: not another mobile sponsor - however - that is not impossible idea ....

[10:52] Poid Mahovlich: grab at & T :)

[10:52] Poid Mahovlich: investors - might bite as something like this - know knows

[10:52] Poid Mahovlich: who*

[10:53] Poid Mahovlich: why problems business is business?

[10:53] Taka Linden: How about your.avatar@secondlife.com?

[10:53] Poid Mahovlich: investors cud allow cash growth to invest in new tech

[10:53] Gordon Wendt: and users are incredibly irrational

[10:53] Ciaran Laval: That has potential Taka

[10:53] Biancaluce Robbiani: Btw talking about communication... a thing I would love to know is if there is anymore any Second
Life Radio...

[10:53] Marianne McCann: Taka - I would *love* to have that

[10:53] Taka Linden: Would a personal email alias be helpful for folks, or just one more email address?

[10:53] Blondin Linden: that was some other feedback we got from the blog

[10:54] MSo Lambert: I've used my.avatar@gmail.com for quite a while now, not sure about yet another email address, unless it came
with extra integrated features :)

[10:54] Poid Mahovlich: depends taka what benefits it had - how big a mail box and features

[10:54] Rihanna Laasonen: Another "nice for premiums" feature -- email address for you rav.

[10:54] Poid Mahovlich: gmail rocks currently

[10:54] Taka Linden: OK

[10:54] Rihanna Laasonen: your av, even.

[10:54] Marianne McCann: Taka - for me it would be a useful addition. It would help, IMO, add a level of professionalism to those
of us doing business in here.

[10:54] Biancaluce Robbiani: I agree

[10:54] Ciaran Laval: I agree with Mari on that point

[10:54] Gordon Wendt: Taka, it would b ecool, I could set all my SLX email spam to go in a loop from my LL email to my Gordon
Wendt Gmail account back to my LL email and so on

[10:54] Ludo Merit: Would it be one more email address, or really one more email client? I have enough trouble using the one I've
got

[10:54] Gordon Wendt: SL email rather, not LL email

[10:55] Taka Linden: depends on how we'd implement it, I suppose

[10:55] Blondin Linden: i was going to say Gordon!!!

[10:55] Poid Mahovlich: well u cud attach the second life one to ya gmail and have the best of both worlds :)

[10:55] Poid Mahovlich: a secondlife email addy and gmail features

[10:55] Marianne McCann: I would prefer it be usable as a forward to my non-SL account or elsewhere though, rather than a separate
e-mail system (web mail, etc) I'd have to read.

[10:55] Ciaran Laval: Also yesterday people were saying they'd like to be able to im in via a standard messenger such as Yim or
MSN. Not sure how feasible that is

[10:55] Poid Mahovlich: *assumes the position

[10:56] Taka Linden: Would IM interoperability interest people?

[10:56] Marianne McCann: Naw, I prefer my IMs integrated with the client

[10:56] Poid Mahovlich: yes Taka

[10:56] Taka Linden: or Skype interoperability?

[10:56] Marianne McCann: Taka - yes

[10:56] Gordon Wendt: and I'd have no qualms about doing that, speaking of communication, you should have a quiet word with the PR
team and tell them to stop sending advert emails unless we specifically op in

[10:56] Gordon Wendt: none of this opt out bullshit

[10:56] Marianne McCann: and yes

[10:56] Poid Mahovlich: yes deffo skype

[10:56] Sitearm Madonna: @Gordon I agree -

[10:56] Sitearm Madonna: :)

[10:56] Blondin Linden: I've seen people ask for better lip syncing as well. Don't really know if that would count as a
communication tool

[10:56] Taka Linden: Would there be any issues related to Skype having some real names?

[10:56] Poid Mahovlich: skype is the leading online comms of choice so why not utilize that ?

[10:56] Gordon Wendt: This is another statement I'm willing to say I think there's wide community support for

[10:56] Marianne McCann: Gordon - surely you wanted to know all about that fashion show

[10:57] Poid Mahovlich: give a choice regarding names Taka

[10:57] Gordon Wendt: Taka, umm..... yes

[10:57] Biancaluce Robbiani: Hi Joao

[10:57] Marianne McCann: Marianne McCann has a Skype account /me winks

[10:57] Taka Linden: OK

[10:57] joao Mastroianni: Hello everyone :-))

[10:57] Taka Linden: This is great.

[10:57] Poid Mahovlich: bussiness and personal - RL name or avatar - choices are important

[10:58] Taka Linden: I really appreciate the input.

[10:58] Gordon Wendt: Marianne, of course, I'm actually one of the largest fashion designers in SL in disguise, I just left my
high heels in my inventory for today :)

[10:58] Lowri Mills: so does Lowri Mills

[10:58] Gordon Wendt: lol

[10:58] joao Mastroianni: Bianca :)

[10:58] Biancaluce Robbiani: The radio when I started was a good way to communicate from LL side to all or from a sort of official
channel...

[10:58] Poid Mahovlich: radio SL wud be cool

[10:58] BlueGin Yifu: Are you talking about making these communication tools part of SL or do you mean everyone within SL should
get these also? Then, do we need separate accounts for our RL and SL selves? Gets confusing and I do not know how many casual
players will do this.

[10:58] Poid Mahovlich: as a official channel

[10:58] Marianne McCann: Yes, Radio Linden. That's one old product

[10:58] Gordon Wendt: Blondin, people are also asking for it to be on by default and have the option to turn it off hidden so deep
as to make it essentially mandatory, that doesn't mean it isn't a horrible idea

[10:59] Gordon Wendt: lip sync should be the lowest priority possible

[10:59] Rihanna Laasonen: Radio and podcasting are both nice passive channels to reach people who

[10:59]  Poid Mahovlich: good easy comms - unless yr non english speaking

[10:59] Marianne McCann: Shame that and the old info boards are so, well, unused.

[10:59] Gordon Wendt: in my opinion

[10:59] Blondin Linden: :)

[10:59] Lowri Mills: with tutorials on it would be good

[10:59] Rihanna Laasonen: wouldn't necessarily hunt up the blogs, and they've both been abandoned.

[10:59] Gordon Wendt: Blondin, I know we have like 1 minute left but are you guys going to do something about making the new boards actually usable?

[10:59] Gordon Wendt: the new forum boards I mean

[11:00] Poid Mahovlich: which boards Gordon?

[11:00] Poid Mahovlich: k

[11:00] Poid Mahovlich: yeah web site needs a tweak in functionality

[11:00] BlueGin Yifu: Is our purpose to discuss how LL can communicate to residents or how we can all communicate within SL? The
goal is to communicate with SL, isn't it? Not how do we communicate external to SL.

[11:00] Biancaluce Robbiani: yes... and as far as I could see .. listening in english is good to improve so .. Radio feature is a good tutorial way

[11:00] Gordon Wendt: the new commerce board, eventually to be the whole forum, currently they are incredibly unusable, IF YOU GO LIVE WITH MOVING EVERYTHING OVER YOU WILL LOSE RESIDENTS

[11:00] Gordon Wendt: sorry for the caps but that needed to be shouted

[11:00] BlueGin Yifu: *WITHIN SL

[11:01] Blondin Linden: hey all, Taka and I need to go.

[11:01] Rihanna Laasonen dittos Gordon.

[11:01] Blondin Linden: But this was a good turn out

[11:01] Blondin Linden: Lots of useful info

[11:01] Lexie Linden: Great discussion ㋡

[11:01] Sitearm Madonna: shall you post a summary ?

[11:01] Taka Linden: Thanks again, everyone.

[11:01] Gordon Wendt: and of course I get ignored by the Lindens

[11:01] Ciaran Laval: Cheers Blondin, shall we just camp here till you come back? ;)

[11:01] Marianne McCann: You're welcome! :-)

[11:01] Torben Trautman waves

[11:01] Blondin Linden: I will clean up the chat log

[11:01] Torben Trautman: bye all

[11:01] Sitearm Madonna: on the blog or sumpin :) ?

[11:01] Poid Mahovlich: ty all

[11:01] Marianne McCann: See ya later today, Blondin

[11:01] Blondin Linden: and have a transcript for those who ask

[11:01] Lowri Mills: Thank you, for the time and discussion

[11:01] Taka Linden: Gordon, thanks for joining!

[11:01] Ciaran Laval: Thanks Taka and Lexie

[11:01] Taka Linden: really good insights

User:Blondin Linden/Commtools 16SEP09

2009-09-17T02:17:38Z

Gordon Wendt: adding transcript at Blondin's request

Office Hours Meeting Notes 16-Sep-2009

Topic: Communication Tools

Participants (21):

Biancaluce Robbiani
Blondin Linden
Bluegin Yifu
Ciaran Laval
Daniel Voyager
Ella Mcmahon
Gordon Went
Joao Miastroianni
Kris Darmoset
Lexie Linden
Lowri Mills
Ludo Merit
Marianne Mccann
Mso Lambert
Poid Mahovlich
Rihanna Laasonen
Sitearm Madonna
Surfaqua Oh
Taka Linden
Torben Trautman
Yann Dufaux

[10:03] Blondin Linden: Well, I suppose we can begin. Thanks all for coming! This meeting was a result of some of the feedback we got from the Avaline blog post
[10:03] Ciaran Laval: :P Gordon
[10:04] Gordon Wendt: was the feedback that most users wanted nothing to do with it and that LL was wasting their time?
[10:04] Blondin Linden: I don't know if you all had a chance to read it, but Taka here was interested in engaging outside of the comments and getting a wider view of how we can better improve commnication tools in SL.
[10:04] Blondin Linden: Something along those lines Gordon :)
[10:05] Taka Linden: Yes. How many of you are using AvaLine now?
[10:05] Gordon Wendt: I think most users want groups to work, IM's to work, and for commiunication via notecard not to be the only reliable option
[10:05] Taka Linden: or Skype?
[10:05] Gordon Wendt: or SLVoice? nobody uses that either
[10:05] Gordon Wendt: groups being group IM's in this context
[10:05] Ciaran Laval: I didn't extend my Avaline usage beyond the beta test
[10:05] Lowri Mills: we use SL Voice
[10:05] Ludo Merit: Using Skype, and SL voice. I sing a capella in it
[10:06] Daniel Voyager: I use Skype mostly.
[10:06] Blondin Linden: I think a lot of the feedback we got was that Skype was the prefered method of communication
[10:06] BlueGin Yifu: I do not know what the Avaline blog is; so I guess that's the first thing I have to say about communications. hehe
[10:06] Lowri Mills: we are finding firewalls in the middle east and some Chinese ISPs that block it
[10:06] Blondin Linden: I'll find the link Blue Gin
[10:06] Ciaran Laval: Avaline might be useful for some very big companies but it falls flat for the average user
[10:06] Marianne McCann: I beta tested Avaline.
[10:06] Gordon Wendt: even if some people do use it, because so many people used/use skype it seems like there was a lot of duplicated effort that only achieved splitting the community into using two incompatible systems
[10:06] Daniel Voyager: Twitter and Plurk seems to be getting popular these days. :p
[10:07] Daniel Voyager: with SL
[10:07] Lexie Linden: good point Daniel
[10:07] Taka Linden: Do people use Twitter and Plurk for the same kind of messaging as Group Chat?
[10:07] Ciaran Laval: Do you guys have an Avaline number for support calls?
[10:07] Taka Linden: they seem like quite different tools to me
[10:08] Blondin Linden: https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/features/blog/2009/08/19/bye-bye-beta-avaline-dial-an-avatar-is-now-available-to-all-avatars
[10:08] SunnyBoy Arashi: i do not have , don't know so much about it
[10:08] Taka Linden: As for AvaLine as a way to reach support, it is not currently an option.
[10:08] Ludo Merit: It would never have occurred to me to use twitter for chat
[10:08] Poid Mahovlich: Twitter and Plurk can virus a message much faster
[10:08] Gordon Wendt: having to watch both twitter and plurk is a pain
[10:08] Marianne McCann: Agreed, Poid
[10:08] Rihanna Laasonen: Why is faster better?
[10:08] Ciaran Laval: Ah thanks Taka, I think that would be a good way of showcasing Avaline if you did offer that as an option.
[10:08] Taka Linden: Good idea.
[10:08] Poid Mahovlich: Gordon so get a tool to view all at once - ire friend feed
[10:08] Blondin Linden: I use Plurk. I find it a great tool to pass links and news about whats going on
[10:09] Ludo Merit: I won't use anything I have to pay more for, such as Avaline
[10:09] Blondin Linden: I like the Karma :)
[10:09] Biancaluce Robbiani: there are some abrogators Gordon for that?
[10:09] Gordon Wendt: Taka, of course not, that would be proof that LL has confidence in avaline as a platform and you can't have that :)
[10:09] Rihanna Laasonen: Notices sent to e-mail give us an easy record to refer back to -- if they just worked.
[10:09] Gordon Wendt: *that
[10:09] Poid Mahovlich: yeah avaline is a needless expense imho
[10:09] Gordon Wendt: second what Rihanna just said
[10:09] Taka Linden: Actually, the support team has a very specific set of needs, and AvaLine was not designed to serve those "use cases"
[10:10] Taka Linden: though it definitely could be helpful in some circumstances
[10:10] Ciaran Laval: Avaline is useful for ambitious business within SL, you can offer worldwide phone access
[10:10] Petra Linden is Online
[10:10] Poid Mahovlich: what was it's parameters specifically then Taka?
[10:10] Marianne McCann: I've yet to find a good use of AvaLine with my clients, at least not any that Skype isn't already handling
[10:10] Gordon Wendt: As I said before though, I think there is a pretty strong consensus among users that they don't want new communications tools, they want the existing tools to do what they're advertised to do and supposed to do
[10:11] Poid Mahovlich: *nods
[10:11] BlueGin Yifu: agree
[10:11] Lowri Mills: yes
[10:11] Rihanna Laasonen: ?me nods vigorously.
[10:11] Ludo Merit nods too
[10:11] Taka Linden: This first edition of AvaLine is intended simply to allow someone inworld to stay in touch with people who are not online
[10:11] Gordon Wendt: Can I assume that there is an internal team at LL that handles comm. tools?
[10:11] Ciaran Laval: I don't mind new tools if they offer better functionality than the current tools, group chat and notices is rather clunky
[10:11] Lexie Linden: Hi Yann and Surf
[10:11] Surfaqua Oh: hello
[10:12] MSo Lambert: Hi all
[10:12] Taka Linden: Do any of you run inworld businesses?
[10:12] Lowri Mills: and we need notecards that read arabic
[10:12] Lowri Mills: yes
[10:12] SunnyBoy Arashi: sorry all gota go some one need help
[10:12] Lowri Mills: I do
[10:12] Marianne McCann: Taka - what would be the second edition of AvaLine, then?
[10:12] Biancaluce Robbiani: hya Surf, Yann
[10:12] Gordon Wendt: Ciaran, if they could rewrite and supersede old tools in functionality I'd agree
[10:12] Lowri Mills: languagelab.com
[10:12] SunnyBoy Arashi: c ya next time
[10:12] Poid Mahovlich: ok - so avaline falls a little short as tools already exists that work and are better no offense
[10:12] Ludo Merit: Small one
[10:12] Marianne McCann: Ya, that
[10:12] Rihanna Laasonen: Yes, and IM works fine for my small business. Avaline has no
[10:12] Rihanna Laasonen: purpose for me.
[10:13] Taka Linden: Future versions of AvaLine will expand the inworld audience, so a caller could participate in group conversations, not just one-to-one voice chat.
[10:13] Rihanna Laasonen: Better IM would be nice, but I've no need for voice-related anything.
[10:13] Lowri Mills: we use SL Voice
[10:13] Lowri Mills: and group chat
[10:13] Poid Mahovlich: does avaline work for anyone you know of ? I'd be interested to hear a positive also on this
[10:13] Blondin Linden: So if you all could create a wish list of things you wanted fixed, wanted to see, what would you include?
[10:13] Gordon Wendt: Taka, yes, a business and a group utilizing Mentor resource.
[10:14] Ludo Merit: That would come in handy, Taka, though there's a program out there to do that already, which, unfortunately for me, costs money.
[10:14] Taka Linden: Some of the biggest praise has come from the education community, where non-PC access to people inworld is proving important.
[10:14] Marianne McCann: Voice is okay, but a lot of my clients seem to want to use text, mainly for a written record.
[10:14] Gordon Wendt: albeit a fairly quiet one
[10:14] Ciaran Laval: Ok look im's get capped at 25, that needs fixing somehow
[10:14] Poid Mahovlich: first of main connective tool is the SL blog - which is improved - but still yet not fully utilized
[10:14] Gordon Wendt: Blondin, Group Chat, Group Notices, IM Chat, Inventory, Teleporting, Pie
[10:14] Poid Mahovlich: off*
[10:14] Ciaran Laval: or some other number, it's around 25 I think, or is it size based?
[10:14] Biancaluce Robbiani: as I could see many residents do not like voice chat so far... but any change in that direction is glad IMHO
[10:14] Lowri Mills: We teach English and other languages, we need voice
[10:14] Ludo Merit: If you come up with an equally good group phone feature that costs less I might use it eventually
[10:15] Poid Mahovlich: oh we talking inworld?>
[10:15] Rihanna Laasonen: In-world/out-world IM that's better than replying to previous IM's-to-email.
[10:15] BlueGin Yifu: Is the main issue here what tools to use in communicating? Or is the issue how to have clearer communications? Or all of this?
[10:15] Rihanna Laasonen: Group notices that work, and more groups.
[10:15] Biancaluce Robbiani: Educators too are split in 2 opposite points of view
[10:15] Lowri Mills: yes, our notices didn't work today
[10:15] Rihanna Laasonen: The ability to NOT communicate -- to turn off group chat without blocking local communication.
[10:15] Poid Mahovlich: yeah I'd be happy if the basics worked - then move to additions and so on
[10:15] Yann Dufaux: burned :p
[10:15] Taka Linden: Lowri Mills: Please tell me more about how Notices didn't work for you today.
[10:16] Blondin Linden: yes, I agree the 25 group limit tends to be annoying when you've maxed out
[10:16] Biancaluce Robbiani: Communication in sharing same document would a big thing too
[10:16] Poid Mahovlich: however again I do feel the main blog is still not up 2 speed in terms of actually use
[10:16] Biancaluce Robbiani: thing*
[10:16] Lowri Mills: we had a teacher out with the flu, and she sent 3 notices , none of them worked
[10:16] Lowri Mills: but those around 4am did work
[10:16] Yann Dufaux: aw, more of 25 group could be very great ㋡
[10:16] Poid Mahovlich: as ever
[10:16] Taka Linden: Hmmm. Did she tell customer support?
[10:16] Poid Mahovlich: that old chestnut
[10:16] Lowri Mills: it just happened
[10:17] Marianne McCann: I'm *always* maxed out on groups. The current group/IM framework may have worked in 2003, but it's pretty overworked in 2009
[10:17] Lowri Mills: it happens on an off
[10:17] Ludo Merit: Haven't we mentors been asking for more than 25 for years? There must be a reason why not or we'd have 'em.
[10:17] Taka Linden: How many groups would you like?
[10:17] Taka Linden: if you could have any number?
[10:17] Taka Linden: How many do you need?
[10:17] Gordon Wendt: Blondin, there are several proposed solutions for that, LL just has to take the initiative, the most popular and the most realistic to implement I think is the proposal to change it to two types of groups
[10:17] Poid Mahovlich: realistically another 10 - no need to be greedy
[10:17] Ciaran Laval: as manay as I can get
[10:17] Gordon Wendt: which would lessen load enough to allow more groups
[10:17] Yann Dufaux: Taka, 35 of 40 groups ㋡
[10:17] Daniel Voyager: 35+
[10:18] Biancaluce Robbiani: yes Ludo... I agree... more than 25 is a big tech mess I guess
[10:18] Lowri Mills: I may not need so many groups if I had more roles and different tools
[10:18] Marianne McCann: To be honest, given the current method of groups for announcements, for build access, etc, I would be *comfortable* with 35-50, but would prefer not having a cap
[10:18] Poid Mahovlich: I assumed groups was a no go - due to computing and processing ? it doesn't work not - so with a group increase the problems would also increase - so it pie in the sky
[10:18] Lowri Mills: where you could have different roles receive notices
[10:18] Yann Dufaux: but with the possibility to fusion the parallel group
[10:18] Taka Linden: The reason there is a group limit at all is to manage system overload. But we do hear loudly and clearly that 25 is too low for many residents.
[10:18] Poid Mahovlich: now*
[10:18] Gordon Wendt: Ludo, agreed, we have 1 official and what 3 or 4 unofficial but necessary groups?
[10:18] Ludo Merit: Well, if people would use groups more wisely, I might be able to get along with 25, but people are using groups for things they could use subscriber lists for, and using multiple groups instead of roles in groups
[10:18] Yann Dufaux: lite a hotmail emails fusion ㋡
[10:18] Yann Dufaux: like*
[10:19] Marianne McCann: True, Poid. The whole *system* needs an update. It's pretty fundamentally limited
[10:19] Ludo Merit: But there's a reason for that. If we could send notices to a group role instead of the whole group, we'd need fewer groups
[10:19] Gordon Wendt: Taka, are you hearing our proposed solutions on the JIRA to lower that load?
[10:19] Poid Mahovlich: Taka can a new work about like subscribe o matic be implemented ? and broadly used?
[10:19] Taka Linden: What percentage of group messages are really one-way messages from businesses trying to promote their offerings?
[10:19] Biancaluce Robbiani: Imagine to have to handle connections for over 25 groups for each of us..... sorting residents on line etc .. a big bunch of data may cause big crashes
[10:19] Ciaran Laval: I'm with Gordon on moving to a two kinds of group system, how many land groups I need is not the same as asking how many groups I'd like to receive notices from
[10:19] Taka Linden: subscribeomatic is interesting
[10:19] Rihanna Laasonen: Most of the useful message are, IMO.
[10:19] Marianne McCann: This is not a criticism, simply a note that SL has grown to a point where it needs a more scalable system in place for that
[10:19] Guy Linden is Online
[10:19] Taka Linden: does anyone here use subscribeomatic?
[10:20] Ludo Merit: Yes
[10:20] Yann Dufaux: if i have a group to support and other customer update, i need to did a fusion of group to send notices or proposal one times for the two group ㋡
[10:20] Marianne McCann: Ciaran - I've long advocated creating a build/script access list into the estate or parcel information.
[10:20] Biancaluce Robbiani: we should have a free "subscibing system" for example
[10:20] Ciaran Laval: I'm in some subscribe-o-matic groups and I've used Hipp groups which is a similar thing
[10:20] Blondin Linden: Gordon, Ciaran, is there a Jira for that?
[10:20] Marianne McCann: Do away with needing a "rez group" entirely
[10:20] Ludo Merit: It's free so I can use it.
[10:20] Gordon Wendt: yes, one second and I'll try to find it
[10:20] Poid Mahovlich: or set up an out of world system perhaps - maybe for premium users ? so they can have as many groups as they like - a separate connections area which is web based ..... outside box soltions
[10:20] Gordon Wendt: unless Ciaran has a link handy
[10:20] Ciaran Laval: Hippo Groups
[10:21] Ludo Merit: Cost money
[10:21] Biancaluce Robbiani: is it free?
[10:21] Ciaran Laval: No Gordon, unfortunately I don't have them handy
[10:21] Ciaran Laval: Marianne that's a good proposal on scripted access in the parcel
[10:21] Poid Mahovlich: I know many would be happy to pay an extra premium for additional groups offers
[10:22] Marianne McCann: Ciaran - thanks. It would cut several groups from my must have list
[10:22] Lowri Mills: now that is a good idea
[10:22] Blondin Linden: Poid, that would be a neat feature for premium accounts, an incentive perhaps to upgrade
[10:22] Lowri Mills: I would pay for extra roles, groups, etc
[10:22] Rihanna Laasonen: More groups seems an obvious solution to the "How to make premium worthwhile" question.
[10:22] Poid Mahovlich: yus exactly
[10:22] Gordon Wendt: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2833 is the general issue and http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2816 is the specific issue for the separate types
[10:22] Poid Mahovlich: do in in RL bussiness - so do it here
[10:22] BlueGin Yifu: Group chat can be so annoying. Subscribeomatic is good for most big groups and shows.
[10:22] Marianne McCann: Ciaran: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-12078
[10:23] Poid Mahovlich: *nods at BlueGin
[10:23] Ciaran Laval: Cheers Mari
[10:23] Marianne McCann grins
[10:23] Gordon Wendt: that's another one that could be implemented, none of them are exclusively viable so all or some of them could be implemented it seems
[10:23] Rihanna Laasonen: We really need the granularity on which group chat to hear.
[10:24] Taka Linden: Got it.
[10:24] Poid Mahovlich: but make a subscrobe o matic a standard SL feature or a premium one
[10:24] Biancaluce Robbiani: if we suppose that is not possible to increase inworld group numbers... why don't offer a subscriptomatic official mechanism?
[10:24] Taka Linden: So opt-in group messages?
[10:24] Poid Mahovlich: ha exactly Bianca
[10:24]  BlueGin Yifu: yes
[10:24] Gordon Wendt: having scriptable group invites would be a good way to deal with subscribe-o-matic type experience
[10:24] Rihanna Laasonen: Opt-in, that we can turn on or off easily.
[10:24] Lowri Mills: I like the feature where we can now add the person's card into group chat, instead of making another group
[10:24] Ciaran Laval: Opt-in is always the nicer solution
[10:24] Gordon Wendt: if they raised groups
[10:24] Rihanna Laasonen: And make sure to handle notices and chat separately.
[10:24] Taka Linden: OK. This is great feedback.
[10:24] Marianne McCann: true, Gordon
[10:24] Poid Mahovlich: opt in with control even - imagine
[10:25] Poid Mahovlich: its a basic bolt one in actual fact
[10:25] Poid Mahovlich: on*
[10:25] Ludo Merit: My problem with turning off groups is that they don't come back on the way they used to, so if I turn one off I don't hear it again unless I remember to turn it on.
[10:25] Poid Mahovlich: yeah a setting for that wud be good
[10:25] Poid Mahovlich: again to give options and control
[10:26] Poid Mahovlich: group chat on/off/
[10:26] Gordon Wendt: llGroupInvite, llGroupEject, should be implemented, group invite would send a standard group invite and would have to be only usable in touch and have a mute button to prevent spamming
[10:26] BlueGin Yifu: great idea, poid
[10:26] Marianne McCann: Agreed
[10:26] Gordon Wendt: don't have a JIRA for that but would be good
[10:26] Ciaran Laval: That would also cut down on the need for group inviter bots
[10:26] Poid Mahovlich: eject how many times do u see a group chat spammer muted - who only relogs and is right back at it
[10:26] Yann Dufaux: protection against flood of voice/group request ㋡
[10:27] Blondin Linden: Good point Ciaran. You know how I'm such a fan of bots
[10:27] Gordon Wendt: oh, group banning is a feature that is desperately needed
[10:27] Ciaran Laval: Yes Blondin, we've noticed ;)
[10:27] Torben Trautman: hi there
[10:27] Gordon Wendt: you should be able to ban people from groups
[10:27] Yann Dufaux: hi Torben ㋡
[10:27] Gordon Wendt: we need a group ban feature
[10:27] Biancaluce Robbiani: some other viewers )I've heard) allow ppl to take down all friend list and other data and they use it for spam purposes (that is the reverse face of the medal)
[10:27] Poid Mahovlich: a perm on/ off mute for group and individuals is also useful - but would have to show the avatar who is perm muted - so there is a chance to undo :P
[10:27] Marianne McCann: Amen, Gordon
[10:27] Blondin Linden: a group ban feature?
[10:28] Gordon Wendt: chat spam because of chat lag
[10:28] Poid Mahovlich: as ever
[10:28] Gordon Wendt: one sec, I'll grab the link to that
[10:28] Biancaluce Robbiani: too much ideas here lol chat lag
[10:28] Yann Dufaux: chat voice , in group = chat lag for other (i think ..)
[10:28] Gordon Wendt: yeah Blondin, an ability to have a banlist for a group to ban avatars from joining
[10:28] Poid Mahovlich: Blondin u can eject a group member - they can if the group is set to open enrol rejoin again
[10:28] Poid Mahovlich: is a pain in the *CENSORED*
[10:28] Gordon Wendt: yeah, what poid said
[10:28] Poid Mahovlich: so effectively you can not perm ban
[10:29] Ludo Merit: I ask
[10:29] Poid Mahovlich: from a group
[10:29] Gordon Wendt: this shouldn't be confused with the request some extremists have to be able to ban people from property based on the groups they're in
[10:29] Blondin Linden: oh I get it poid
[10:29] Poid Mahovlich: yeah that Gordon is in my opinion not needed
[10:29] Gordon Wendt: something for you to clean up
[10:29] Gordon Wendt: HIPPOS
[10:29] Gordon Wendt: that is all :)
[10:29] Poid Mahovlich: *nods
[10:29] Ciaran Laval: Apologise for throwing an aside in here, but does anyone use Slim?
[10:29] Ciaran Laval: apologies even
[10:29] Poid Mahovlich: nope
[10:30] Lowri Mills: nope
[10:30] Biancaluce Robbiani: no
[10:30] Sitearm Madonna waves
[10:30] Marianne McCann: Ciaran - I have used it a time or two, but not with much seriousness
[10:30] Ludo Merit: Slim?
[10:30] Biancaluce Robbiani: ㋡
[10:30] Ran Hienrichs is Online
[10:30] Marianne McCann: The only time i need a "SLim, well, I need something with more features, and use SparkleIM on my iPhone
[10:30] Blondin Linden: I have Slim , used it once or twice
[10:30] Taka Linden: has anyone used both subscribeomatic and hippo groups?
[10:30] Taka Linden: is one better than the other?
[10:30] Blondin Linden: it was helpful but wasn't widely adapted
[10:30] Taka Linden: or are they comparable
[10:30] Taka Linden: ?
[10:30] Poid Mahovlich: maybe a mas questionairre what do we need to communicate in SL - might help u guys get a better overview - this is a small selection here - but is the same stuff and feedback I have heard for last 4 yrs
[10:30] Lowri Mills: no
[10:31] Marianne McCann: Ive used subscribeomatics. Like much
[10:31] Gordon Wendt: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2825
[10:31] Ludo Merit: Subscribeomatic is free for small groups, so it is better
[10:31] Yann Dufaux: whats hippo group?
[10:31] Poid Mahovlich: hippo is a rental system
[10:31] Sitearm Madonna: we use the bot method
[10:31] Gordon Wendt: that's the ban list request, it also has a duplicate with a lot of votes at http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2826
[10:31] Sitearm Madonna: it avoids griefers banned from the region getting back into the group
[10:31] Ciaran Laval: II've only ever used subscribe-o-matic as a customer, Hippo I've used as a merchant to send information, they seem similar in purpose
[10:31] Poid Mahovlich: with additions to hippo u can do other stuff such a group subscribes etc
[10:32] Gordon Wendt: Ciaran, people shouldn't need to resort to bots to handle region and group control though, wouldn't you agree?
[10:32] Poid Mahovlich: agreed Gordon
[10:32] Ciaran Laval: Absolutely Gordon
[10:32] Poid Mahovlich: there are work arounds a SL /LL system to get what is needed
[10:32] Sitearm Madonna: well I still think users have more programming numbers on hand to invent things than poor overwhelmed LL does
[10:32] Poid Mahovlich: plan and simple
[10:32] Poid Mahovlich: plane*#
[10:33] Sitearm Madonna: ty Bianca
[10:33] Biancaluce Robbiani: yw
[10:33] Blondin Linden: Thanks for the Jira Gordon
[10:34] Gordon Wendt: Blondin, I linked and closed that second one I just linked as a duplicate of the first, but both have a ton of votes
[10:34] MSo Lambert: hippoGroups are nicely integrated with their other products, like Hippo vendor, but some of our customers (I'm Subscribe-O-Matic creator) say they are overwhelmed by too many features :) Subscribe-O-Matic is also strictly opt-in only, while hippoGroups allow group owners to add avatar keys/names manually to their database.
[10:34] Gordon Wendt: that sounds underhanded
[10:35] Gordon Wendt: what's to stop a hippogroups owner from adding the w-hat database with a bot and spamming everyone
[10:35] Ciaran Laval: I think they discourage it, I dislike buying from a store and being spammed
[10:35] Gordon Wendt: and I use w-hat as an example because it can be easily pulled via bot if someone wanted to
[10:35] Poid Mahovlich: non Gordon it is possible but is not fail proof
[10:35] Gordon Wendt: <sigh> nothing ever is
[10:35] Taka Linden: How about voicemail? Has anyone tried it?
[10:36] Poid Mahovlich: true u can script by pass it so I am told ?
[10:36] Echo Linden is Offline
[10:36] Ciaran Laval: I tested it on Avaline but decided listening to my own message was a tad too sad!
[10:36] Taka Linden: :-)
[10:36] Poid Mahovlich: awww
[10:36] Marianne McCann: I have not used it aside form testing. It really hasn't been a need for me.
[10:36] Rihanna Laasonen: Taka, I don't use anything with voice and won't anytime in the next few years.
[10:36] Yann Dufaux: thanks Sietearm ㋡
[10:37] Rihanna Laasonen: It's just irrelevant -- I write, I want want written records.
[10:37] Gordon Wendt: same here, I keep my RL and my SL seperate
[10:37] Taka Linden: Apparently, each month between 8,000 and 12,000 inworld calls go unanswered
[10:37] Gordon Wendt: and voice would break that
[10:37] Rihanna Laasonen: I'm not here to sing.
[10:37] Marianne McCann: Rihanna - yes, I find the written record to be of a lot of use in some of my projects.
[10:37] Taka Linden: To me, that feels like a lot of missed communication.
[10:37] Poid Mahovlich: what do u mean by that Taka?
[10:37] Gordon Wendt: Taka, do you have stats about how many IM's go unanswered? now that would be an interesting stat
[10:37] Taka Linden: and an opportunity for us to enhance the service to help people connect
[10:37] Rihanna Laasonen: Voice is great as an option -- for presentations and concerts and such.
[10:38] Taka Linden: I don't have a similar stat on IMs, though it would be interesting.
[10:38] Rihanna Laasonen: But I think the focus on getting us all to use it as a primary communication tool is misled.
[10:38] MSo Lambert: I'm more worried how many IM's end up in a void when offline IMs cap :)
[10:38] Ciaran Laval: I like the option of voice, hardly ever use it but I like the option
[10:38] Ludo Merit: The thing about voice is that is so often has hum or static behind it
[10:38] BlueGin Yifu: What do you mean when you say IM's go unanswered?
[10:39] Gordon Wendt: I agree with MSO, capped IM's need to end, there has to be a better system
[10:39] Poid Mahovlich: So Taka - I am interested in why LL wud spend time and resource on Avaline when it maybe looks like skype is being used more? how many calls were successfully connected ?
[10:39] Taka Linden: Gordon, please do explain. Are you asking about IMs that are capped, or simply not responded to?
[10:39] Sitearm Madonna: SL Voice is still about 90% reliable in a group of more than 3, where reliable means "it works for everyone immediately first time" and that 10% not working is a time eater
[10:39] Taka Linden: I don't have an exact number for call success rate, but it is very high.
[10:39] Gordon Wendt: responding to MSO I meant capped by the system, currently they go to /dev/null which is unacceptable
[10:39] Poid Mahovlich: capped IM - just send to email - no more capped IM's
[10:40] Taka Linden: The reason we're building the AvaLine system is to lower the barriers to participation inworld.
[10:40] Ludo Merit: I already get so much email I can't read it
[10:40] Ciaran Laval: How reliable is im to email and vice versa?
[10:40] MSo Lambert: I was always wondering, is there a technical / architectural reason for the IM cap system?
[10:40] Poid Mahovlich: I meant how many calls were made with Aveline and over what time period Taka :)
[10:40] Rihanna Laasonen: Taka, AvaLine raises barriers. I don't even have a mic on my machine.
[10:40] Taka Linden: The ability to loop in people on phones is a big deal. One-to-one is only the first step.
[10:40] Blondin Linden: I get all my IMs to me email.
[10:40] Blondin Linden: ie, reliable for me
[10:41] Poid Mahovlich: ditto Blondin
[10:41] Lexie Linden: For me too
[10:41] Taka Linden: It's not a requirement.
[10:41] Blondin Linden: Are any of you having trouble with that?
[10:41] Gordon Wendt: Taka, it would require a huge undertaking and a total rewrite to how IM"s work but the only viable option I can think of would be an inbox/outbox message style system, going to a halfway point between IM and email but within SL
[10:41] Ciaran Laval: How do you know you get them all :p
[10:41] Sitearm Madonna idly wonders when the iPhone SL Client is coming out *coff*
[10:41] Ludo Merit: I don't want to get phone calls from people on line when I am off line. Off line is MY time.
[10:41] Gordon Wendt: incidentally, a bit off topic but IM to email still has huge issues with non english characters
[10:41] Poid Mahovlich: I never get why peeps say my im's r capped as u can see em all in email - maybe a blog on this option to clarify is needed?
[10:41] Sitearm Madonna: ooh ooh I bet the IM work rewrite would go hand in hand with the Group rewrite
[10:41] Marianne McCann: Sitearm. Then I'd never have to leave SL again.
[10:41] Marianne McCann winks
[10:41] MSo Lambert: Sitearm, try SparkleIM for iPhone :)
[10:41] Lowri Mills: Adroid SL Client
[10:42] Sitearm Madonna: lol Mar
[10:42] Blondin Linden: Im not that popular Ciaran. Are you informed when you've reached your IM limit?
[10:42] Sitearm Madonna: yikes MSo I that I was kidding!
[10:42] Biancaluce Robbiani: no troubles to get emailed ims but sometimes Im gets messed when you login and crash or they show up late when you relog a few times after...
[10:42] Marianne McCann: I use SparkleIM already. Not bad, all in all. Still pretty limited
[10:42] Ciaran Laval: Poid some people don't like the option of im's to email
[10:42] Poid Mahovlich: U get told when you log in that IM's r capped
[10:42] Marianne McCann: "Your messages have been capped."
[10:42] Ciaran Laval: Blondin yeah you get a message when you login
[10:42] Poid Mahovlich: but still you get all to email if you enable that feature
[10:42] Blondin Linden: Gordon, what is the problem with non-English speakers? Couldn't you argue that the language barrier itself is the real problem?
[10:42] Marianne McCann: I see that from time to time
[10:42] Gordon Wendt: not sure how many people communicate with people who use Chinese, Japanese, Korean, middle eastern or slavic languages but those have a tendency to break IM to email either recieving in your email or replying via the fast reply
[10:43] Poid Mahovlich: yes Blondin u could
[10:43] Poid Mahovlich: a standard sl translator would rock
[10:43] Ciaran Laval: Also how long do you get to reply to an im from email? Is it a day or two?
[10:43] Gordon Wendt: Blondin, see above, there are technical issues, and it's particularly bad for the issues that top replying due to bad encoding since you lose your single use reply key
[10:43] Poid Mahovlich: again a feature
[10:43] Taka Linden: a couple days
[10:44] Lowri Mills: I communicate with people all over the world
[10:44] Lowri Mills: daily
[10:44] Gordon Wendt: Taka, cleaning that up each day must be one heck of a chron job
[10:44] Lowri Mills: and they have a terrible time
[10:44] Poid Mahovlich: imagine having a translator option bolted on as a feature - and again cud be costed as a premium feature ....
[10:44] Poid Mahovlich: depending
[10:44] BlueGin Yifu: a standard issue translator for all in SL would be revolutionary. Would rock this world.
[10:44] Poid Mahovlich: yup
[10:44] Poid Mahovlich: that would open a HUGE comms door for SL
[10:44] Ciaran Laval: Gordon is that issue still about with characters not counting the size correctly?
[10:44] Lowri Mills: we have 6000 arabic people coming in and we can't even give them a notecard
[10:45] Marianne McCann: Not good, Lowri
[10:45] BlueGin Yifu: Can you imagine? It would be a world first, I think.
[10:45] Biancaluce Robbiani: ahahahah i feel like snow is coming brrrr
[10:45] Biancaluce Robbiani: lol
[10:45] Biancaluce Robbiani: ;)
[10:45] Lowri Mills: The Chinese are locked out of the voice do to ISPs
[10:45] Blondin Linden: wow Lowri! 6000!
[10:45] Ciaran Laval: Mari what's this Sparkle Im?
[10:45] Poid Mahovlich: however not sure the processing power would cope - since even group messages is a pain - adding a translator would push thing in the tech to burn out I suspect
[10:45] Gordon Wendt: Ciaran, I think there's a different one now, some characters will actually make the system discard the reply, so say someone sends you an IM, it gets sent to your email you try to reply quoting that IM but that IM contains a strange character, the reply doesn't go through because it got rejected by LL's server and you cannot try again because the reply code you get with your IM via email is a one time code
[10:46] Lowri Mills: so are some Middle East Countries
[10:46] Gordon Wendt: I'll try to find the JIRA
[10:46] Lowri Mills: we can get more, it it is stable
[10:46] Lowri Mills: we are handing out pdf's and textures on SL
[10:46] Blondin Linden: There is a PJira out there that Philip has going about the Snowglobe viewer and translations
[10:46] Blondin Linden: Hvae you seen it?
[10:46] Biancaluce Robbiani: the issue of arabian or simmilar characters is something discussed in another OH with Blue too
[10:46] MSo Lambert: Gordon, are you sure the IM session code is a one-time thing? I've successfully replied multiple times to a same email IM before....
[10:46] Poid Mahovlich: nope Blondin
[10:47] Blondin Linden: really?
[10:47] Blondin Linden: Ok, let me go find the link
[10:47] Poid Mahovlich: really I been away 3 weeks not caught up yet
[10:47] Blondin Linden: you should all vote on it. Its a good feature to implement.
[10:47] Lexie Linden: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-93
[10:47] Douglas Rishmal is Online
[10:47] Cody Bracken is Online
[10:47] Poid Mahovlich: wicked ty
[10:47] Lexie Linden: ㋡
[10:48] Gordon Wendt: Haven't tried the client translator yet but it seems to be getting rave reviews on the sldev list
[10:48] Yann Dufaux: lexie i test this, but not now ㋡
[10:48] Poid Mahovlich: trying to follow all developments in SL is a task in itself - i wish the tech blog was more - how shall I put it - compelling and featured more ?
[10:48] Lexie Linden: ok : )
[10:48] Yann Dufaux: well with the client translator its a very nice work!
[10:49] Taka Linden: How about SMS?
[10:49] Taka Linden: Would anyone use SMS in or out?
[10:49] Blondin Linden: i would love to get IMs in SMS form
[10:49] Ludo Merit: SMS?
[10:49] Poid Mahovlich: wud be cool
[10:49] Blondin Linden: :)
[10:49] Yann Dufaux: you can talk in any language, and the viewer translate in your setting pref ㋡
[10:49] Lowri Mills: yes, I have it on now
[10:49] Ciaran Laval: SMS would interest me, but would i be able to send in or only reply?
[10:49] Lowri Mills: it tells me one person here speaks French
[10:49] MSo Lambert: I would love SMS in/out, even as a paid feature
[10:49] Lowri Mills: and translates
[10:50] Marianne McCann: Blondin - yes, the option would be great. Or maybe from particular people (not all) for those who have a capped amount of SMS traffic
[10:50] Poid Mahovlich: this would be a cool feature - depending on cost ? actually you can set up free sms and add a 'sponsors text'
[10:50] Blondin Linden: I would think both Ci would be most useful
[10:50] Poid Mahovlich: so qualifies as marketing
[10:50] Blondin Linden: sponsor texts?
[10:50] Yann Dufaux: well, just don't work in ims, but with the privacy ruls i know te reason ㋡
[10:51] Poid Mahovlich: yes cell in the UK allow a limited free sms - orange for example and add at the bottom www,orange.co.uk
[10:51] Gordon Wendt: sponsored texting service? isn't LL already getting sued, seems like this would be just asking for someone to sue them again if they bring a marketing firm into SL
[10:51] Gordon Wendt: targetted advertising and all that
[10:51] Poid Mahovlich: i ment add www.secondlife.com to the free SMS :)
[10:51] Ciaran Laval: See that's the problem with im to email, I can't get hold of my minions easily, whereas if I could do it via SMS that would be superb
[10:51] Gordon Wendt: I love the idea of SMS but the idea of sponsored SMS no matter how you did it would cause problems I think
[10:52] Poid Mahovlich: not another mobile sponsor - however - that is not impossible idea ....
[10:52] Poid Mahovlich: grab at & T :)
[10:52] Poid Mahovlich: investors - might bite as something like this - know knows
[10:52] Poid Mahovlich: who*
[10:53] Poid Mahovlich: why problems business is business?
[10:53] Taka Linden: How about your.avatar@secondlife.com?
[10:53] Poid Mahovlich: investors cud allow cash growth to invest in new tech
[10:53] Gordon Wendt: and users are incredibly irrational
[10:53] Ciaran Laval: That has potential Taka
[10:53] Biancaluce Robbiani: Btw talking about communication... a thing I would love to know is if there is anymore any Second Life Radio...
[10:53] Marianne McCann: Taka - I would *love* to have that
[10:53] Taka Linden: Would a personal email alias be helpful for folks, or just one more email address?
[10:53] Blondin Linden: that was some other feedback we got from the blog
[10:54] MSo Lambert: I've used my.avatar@gmail.com for quite a while now, not sure about yet another email address, unless it came with extra integrated features :)
[10:54] Poid Mahovlich: depends taka what benefits it had - how big a mail box and features
[10:54] Rihanna Laasonen: Another "nice for premiums" feature -- email address for you rav.
[10:54] Poid Mahovlich: gmail rocks currently
[10:54] Taka Linden: OK
[10:54] Rihanna Laasonen: your av, even.
[10:54] Marianne McCann: Taka - for me it would be a useful addition. It would help, IMO, add a level of professionalism to those of us doing business in here.
[10:54] Biancaluce Robbiani: I agree
[10:54] Ciaran Laval: I agree with Mari on that point
[10:54] Gordon Wendt: Taka, it would b ecool, I could set all my SLX email spam to go in a loop from my LL email to my Gordon Wendt Gmail account back to my LL email and so on
[10:54] Ludo Merit: Would it be one more email address, or really one more email client? I have enough trouble using the one I've got
[10:54] Gordon Wendt: SL email rather, not LL email
[10:55] Taka Linden: depends on how we'd implement it, I suppose
[10:55] Blondin Linden: i was going to say Gordon!!!
[10:55] Poid Mahovlich: well u cud attach the second life one to ya gmail and have the best of both worlds :)
[10:55] Poid Mahovlich: a secondlife email addy and gmail features
[10:55] Marianne McCann: I would prefer it be usable as a forward to my non-SL account or elsewhere though, rather than a separate e-mail system (web mail, etc) I'd have to read.
[10:55] Ciaran Laval: Also yesterday people were saying they'd like to be able to im in via a standard messenger such as Yim or MSN. Not sure how feasible that is
[10:55] Poid Mahovlich: *assumes the position
[10:56] Taka Linden: Would IM interoperability interest people?
[10:56] Marianne McCann: Naw, I prefer my IMs integrated with the client
[10:56] Poid Mahovlich: yes Taka
[10:56] Taka Linden: or Skype interoperability?
[10:56] Marianne McCann: Taka - yes
[10:56] Gordon Wendt: and I'd have no qualms about doing that, speaking of communication, you should have a quiet word with the PR team and tell them to stop sending advert emails unless we specifically op in
[10:56] Gordon Wendt: none of this opt out bullshit
[10:56] Marianne McCann: and yes
[10:56] Poid Mahovlich: yes deffo skype
[10:56] Sitearm Madonna: @Gordon I agree -
[10:56] Sitearm Madonna: :)
[10:56] Blondin Linden: I've seen people ask for better lip syncing as well. Don't really know if that would count as a communication tool
[10:56] Taka Linden: Would there be any issues related to Skype having some real names?
[10:56] Poid Mahovlich: skype is the leading online comms of choice so why not utilize that ?
[10:56] Gordon Wendt: This is another statement I'm willing to say I think there's wide community support for
[10:56] Marianne McCann: Gordon - surely you wanted to know all about that fashion show
[10:57] Poid Mahovlich: give a choice regarding names Taka
[10:57] Gordon Wendt: Taka, umm..... yes
[10:57] Biancaluce Robbiani: Hi Joao
[10:57] Marianne McCann: Marianne McCann has a Skype account /me winks
[10:57] Taka Linden: OK
[10:57] joao Mastroianni: Hello everyone :-))
[10:57] Taka Linden: This is great.
[10:57] Poid Mahovlich: bussiness and personal - RL name or avatar - choices are important
[10:58] Taka Linden: I really appreciate the input.
[10:58] Gordon Wendt: Marianne, of course, I'm actually one of the largest fashion designers in SL in disguise, I just left my high heels in my inventory for today :)
[10:58] Lowri Mills: so does Lowri Mills
[10:58] Gordon Wendt: lol
[10:58] joao Mastroianni: Bianca :)
[10:58] Biancaluce Robbiani: The radio when I started was a good way to communicate from LL side to all or from a sort of official channel...
[10:58] Poid Mahovlich: radio SL wud be cool
[10:58] BlueGin Yifu: Are you talking about making these communication tools part of SL or do you mean everyone within SL should get these also? Then, do we need separate accounts for our RL and SL selves? Gets confusing and I do not know how many casual players will do this.
[10:58] Poid Mahovlich: as a official channel
[10:58] Marianne McCann: Yes, Radio Linden. That's one old product
[10:58] Gordon Wendt: Blondin, people are also asking for it to be on by default and have the option to turn it off hidden so deep as to make it essentially mandatory, that doesn't mean it isn't a horrible idea
[10:59] Gordon Wendt: lip sync should be the lowest priority possible
[10:59] Rihanna Laasonen: Radio and podcasting are both nice passive channels to reach people who
[10:59]  Poid Mahovlich: good easy comms - unless yr non english speaking
[10:59] Marianne McCann: Shame that and the old info boards are so, well, unused.
[10:59] Gordon Wendt: in my opinion
[10:59] Blondin Linden: :)
[10:59] Lowri Mills: with tutorials on it would be good
[10:59] Rihanna Laasonen: wouldn't necessarily hunt up the blogs, and they've both been abandoned.
[10:59] Gordon Wendt: Blondin, I know we have like 1 minute left but are you guys going to do something about making the new boards actually usable?
[10:59] Gordon Wendt: the new forum boards I mean
[11:00] Poid Mahovlich: which boards Gordon?
[11:00] Poid Mahovlich: k
[11:00] Poid Mahovlich: yeah web site needs a tweak in functionality
[11:00] BlueGin Yifu: Is our purpose to discuss how LL can communicate to residents or how we can all communicate within SL? The goal is to communicate with SL, isn't it? Not how do we communicate external to SL.
[11:00] Biancaluce Robbiani: yes... and as far as I could see .. listening in english is good to improve so .. Radio feature is a good tutorial way
[11:00] Gordon Wendt: the new commerce board, eventually to be the whole forum, currently they are incredibly unusable, IF YOU GO LIVE WITH MOVING EVERYTHING OVER YOU WILL LOSE RESIDENTS
[11:00] Gordon Wendt: sorry for the caps but that needed to be shouted
[11:00] BlueGin Yifu: *WITHIN SL
[11:01] Blondin Linden: hey all, Taka and I need to go.
[11:01] Rihanna Laasonen dittos Gordon.
[11:01] Blondin Linden: But this was a good turn out
[11:01] Blondin Linden: Lots of useful info
[11:01] Lexie Linden: Great discussion ㋡
[11:01] Sitearm Madonna: shall you post a summary ?
[11:01] Taka Linden: Thanks again, everyone.
[11:01] Gordon Wendt: and of course I get ignored by the Lindens
[11:01] Ciaran Laval: Cheers Blondin, shall we just camp here till you come back? ;)
[11:01] Marianne McCann: You're welcome! :-)
[11:01] Torben Trautman waves
[11:01] Blondin Linden: I will clean up the chat log
[11:01] Torben Trautman: bye all
[11:01] Sitearm Madonna: on the blog or sumpin :) ?
[11:01] Poid Mahovlich: ty all
[11:01] Marianne McCann: See ya later today, Blondin
[11:01] Blondin Linden: and have a transcript for those who ask
[11:01] Lowri Mills: Thank you, for the time and discussion
[11:01] Taka Linden: Gordon, thanks for joining!
[11:01] Ciaran Laval: Thanks Taka and Lexie
[11:01] Taka Linden: really good insights

Dashboard

2009-09-13T00:01:17Z

Gordon Wendt: re-templating again to put in right template

{{Help|OldInfo=*}}

== 525 FAQ ==

'''Q''' - Beta, huh? What exactly does that mean?

'''A''' - This is a not-quite-finished redesign of the Second Life website. The beta testing process will help us sort out a few bugs, finalize a few launch features, and of course, we'd like to give you the ability to send us your feedback.

'''Q''' - Why are you redesigning the website?

'''A''' -The new site works as part of a system that allows more cross-functionality with Second Life, XStreet, the blogs, and the web as a whole. This is the foundation that will allow us to provide you with a more integrated experience.

'''Q''' - How long is beta testing going to take?

'''A''' - Expect to see the site launch in mid-July.

'''Q''' - Who can participate in the beta? Everyone?

'''A''' - Currently Beta is limited...not everyone will see the beta banner on the current site.
[[File:Beta_Banner.jpg]]

If you'd like to participate, click the banner when you see it on the front of the Second Life website.

'''Q''' - Why does it look so different from the Second Life viewer?

'''A''' - We are striving to provide consistency across both the viewer and the website. [https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/technology/blog/2009/06/12/viewer-2009 Viewer 2.0] will feature a similar design sense as well as better grouping of tools to make it both easier to use and easier on the eye.

'''Q''' - Why did you choose these specific elements?

'''A''' - We collected the most often used and functional aspects of the website on the Dashboard so you can see which of your friends are online, what your last purchase was, and how much L$ you currently have, as well as the latest blog posts, video tutorials, and grid status reports. Over time you can expect new widgets and functionality.

'''Q''' - If this is "My Dashboard" shouldn't I be able to customize it?

'''A''' - You should...and you will! Initially, however, some features will be limited; the layout and widgets aren't currently customizable. Eventually, you'll be able to prioritize the feeds and tools that are most important to you.

'''Q''' - I run a business in SL and depend on the website to track transactions. Is this change going to affect me?

'''A''' - All the functionality you depend on is still there, including Transaction (L$) and Account (USD$) Histories. You'll also find convenient reporting on your groups, parcels, and estates, as well as quick links to all your XStreet business.

'''Q''' - There are tools for Merchants and Landlords, what about educators, solution providers, promoters and the host of other business people inworld?

'''A''' - Over time, we'll expand the collection of widgets available, and provide the ability to bring content directly from the web to allow you to fully tailor your experience to your needs.

'''Q''' - Why does the map on My Dashboard work better than the one inworld?

'''A''' - It really does work wonderfully, doesn't it? That's the map upgrade Philip created for [[Snowglobe]]. It'll be the default map inworld as well, someday.

'''Q''' - I have some suggestions that would make this better, do you want to hear them?

'''A''' - We sure do! Click the "Please send us your feedback" to let us know what you think! If you have additional feedback, please email blue@lindenlab.com

'''Q''' - I think I found a bug, how do I report it?

'''A''' - Thanks for helping! Please Create a pJira task in the project: [http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/DASH SL Dashboard Beta] and describe the problem, including any info you believe to be relevant, like the make and model of your browser.

'''Q''' - I think I'm done playing around with My Dashboard, and would like to return to the "old" look and feel of the Second Life website. How do I do that?

'''A''' - To return to the look and feel of the Second Life website that you're used to, log out of secondlife.com and log back in again.

Dashboard

2009-09-12T23:59:36Z

Gordon Wendt: replacing outdated with proper template Template:Help/Old Info

{{Help/Old Info}}

== 525 FAQ ==

'''Q''' - Beta, huh? What exactly does that mean?

'''A''' - This is a not-quite-finished redesign of the Second Life website. The beta testing process will help us sort out a few bugs, finalize a few launch features, and of course, we'd like to give you the ability to send us your feedback.

'''Q''' - Why are you redesigning the website?

'''A''' -The new site works as part of a system that allows more cross-functionality with Second Life, XStreet, the blogs, and the web as a whole. This is the foundation that will allow us to provide you with a more integrated experience.

'''Q''' - How long is beta testing going to take?

'''A''' - Expect to see the site launch in mid-July.

'''Q''' - Who can participate in the beta? Everyone?

'''A''' - Currently Beta is limited...not everyone will see the beta banner on the current site.
[[File:Beta_Banner.jpg]]

If you'd like to participate, click the banner when you see it on the front of the Second Life website.

'''Q''' - Why does it look so different from the Second Life viewer?

'''A''' - We are striving to provide consistency across both the viewer and the website. [https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/technology/blog/2009/06/12/viewer-2009 Viewer 2.0] will feature a similar design sense as well as better grouping of tools to make it both easier to use and easier on the eye.

'''Q''' - Why did you choose these specific elements?

'''A''' - We collected the most often used and functional aspects of the website on the Dashboard so you can see which of your friends are online, what your last purchase was, and how much L$ you currently have, as well as the latest blog posts, video tutorials, and grid status reports. Over time you can expect new widgets and functionality.

'''Q''' - If this is "My Dashboard" shouldn't I be able to customize it?

'''A''' - You should...and you will! Initially, however, some features will be limited; the layout and widgets aren't currently customizable. Eventually, you'll be able to prioritize the feeds and tools that are most important to you.

'''Q''' - I run a business in SL and depend on the website to track transactions. Is this change going to affect me?

'''A''' - All the functionality you depend on is still there, including Transaction (L$) and Account (USD$) Histories. You'll also find convenient reporting on your groups, parcels, and estates, as well as quick links to all your XStreet business.

'''Q''' - There are tools for Merchants and Landlords, what about educators, solution providers, promoters and the host of other business people inworld?

'''A''' - Over time, we'll expand the collection of widgets available, and provide the ability to bring content directly from the web to allow you to fully tailor your experience to your needs.

'''Q''' - Why does the map on My Dashboard work better than the one inworld?

'''A''' - It really does work wonderfully, doesn't it? That's the map upgrade Philip created for [[Snowglobe]]. It'll be the default map inworld as well, someday.

'''Q''' - I have some suggestions that would make this better, do you want to hear them?

'''A''' - We sure do! Click the "Please send us your feedback" to let us know what you think! If you have additional feedback, please email blue@lindenlab.com

'''Q''' - I think I found a bug, how do I report it?

'''A''' - Thanks for helping! Please Create a pJira task in the project: [http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/DASH SL Dashboard Beta] and describe the problem, including any info you believe to be relevant, like the make and model of your browser.

'''Q''' - I think I'm done playing around with My Dashboard, and would like to return to the "old" look and feel of the Second Life website. How do I do that?

'''A''' - To return to the look and feel of the Second Life website that you're used to, log out of secondlife.com and log back in again.

Category:Out of Date Pages

2009-09-12T23:58:15Z

Gordon Wendt: adding cat description

Pages that have been marked as being out of date, populated by [[:Template:Help/Old Info]]

Template:Help/Old Info

2009-09-12T23:57:13Z

Gordon Wendt: adding category add, pages marked with this template will be added to category Category:Out of Date Pages for easy checking

<div style="padding: 2px; background: #d9e0f3; border: 1px solid black; {{NewStyle|moz=*|webkit=*|border-radius|10px}} margin-top: 16px;">
<div style="background: #f9f9f9; {{NewStyle|moz=*|webkit=*|border-radius|8px}} border: 1px solid black; margin-bottom: -13px; padding: 0.125em; font-weight: bold; font-size: 1.2em; width: 100px; text-align: center; position: relative; bottom: 15px; left: 5px;">Note!</div>
<div style="background: #f9f9f9; {{NewStyle|moz=*|webkit=*|border-radius|8px}} border: 1px solid black; padding: 0.25em;">
<div>
Please notice that this article or section contains out-of-date information. You can help to improve the article by editing and updating it.
</div>
</div>
</div> <includeonly>[[Category:Out of Date Pages]]</includeonly>
<noinclude>
__NOTOC__
==Without Round Corners==
<div style="padding: 2px; background: #d9e0f3; border: 1px solid black; margin-top: 16px;">
<div style="background: #f9f9f9;border: 1px solid black; margin-bottom: -13px; padding: 0.125em; font-weight: bold; font-size: 1.2em; width: 100px; text-align: center; position: relative; bottom: 15px; left: 5px;">Note!</div>
<div style="background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px solid black; padding: 0.25em;">
<div>

Please notice that this article or section contains out-of-date information. You can help to improve the article by editing and updating it.
</div>
</div>
</div>

== Documentation ==
This template is part of [[Template:Help]] and not supposed to be used independently. Please browse to [[Template:Help]] for a documentation.

Note: This template adds pages to [[:Category:Out of Date Pages]]

== Dependencies ==
===This Template Includes ===
*none
===This Template Is Included By===
[[Template:Help]]
</noinclude>

Dashboard

2009-09-12T23:53:33Z

Gordon Wendt: adding outdated tag as this article contains a lot of well out of date information and isn't marked as an archive

{{Outdated}}

== 525 FAQ ==

'''Q''' - Beta, huh? What exactly does that mean?

'''A''' - This is a not-quite-finished redesign of the Second Life website. The beta testing process will help us sort out a few bugs, finalize a few launch features, and of course, we'd like to give you the ability to send us your feedback.

'''Q''' - Why are you redesigning the website?

'''A''' -The new site works as part of a system that allows more cross-functionality with Second Life, XStreet, the blogs, and the web as a whole. This is the foundation that will allow us to provide you with a more integrated experience.

'''Q''' - How long is beta testing going to take?

'''A''' - Expect to see the site launch in mid-July.

'''Q''' - Who can participate in the beta? Everyone?

'''A''' - Currently Beta is limited...not everyone will see the beta banner on the current site.
[[File:Beta_Banner.jpg]]

If you'd like to participate, click the banner when you see it on the front of the Second Life website.

'''Q''' - Why does it look so different from the Second Life viewer?

'''A''' - We are striving to provide consistency across both the viewer and the website. [https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/technology/blog/2009/06/12/viewer-2009 Viewer 2.0] will feature a similar design sense as well as better grouping of tools to make it both easier to use and easier on the eye.

'''Q''' - Why did you choose these specific elements?

'''A''' - We collected the most often used and functional aspects of the website on the Dashboard so you can see which of your friends are online, what your last purchase was, and how much L$ you currently have, as well as the latest blog posts, video tutorials, and grid status reports. Over time you can expect new widgets and functionality.

'''Q''' - If this is "My Dashboard" shouldn't I be able to customize it?

'''A''' - You should...and you will! Initially, however, some features will be limited; the layout and widgets aren't currently customizable. Eventually, you'll be able to prioritize the feeds and tools that are most important to you.

'''Q''' - I run a business in SL and depend on the website to track transactions. Is this change going to affect me?

'''A''' - All the functionality you depend on is still there, including Transaction (L$) and Account (USD$) Histories. You'll also find convenient reporting on your groups, parcels, and estates, as well as quick links to all your XStreet business.

'''Q''' - There are tools for Merchants and Landlords, what about educators, solution providers, promoters and the host of other business people inworld?

'''A''' - Over time, we'll expand the collection of widgets available, and provide the ability to bring content directly from the web to allow you to fully tailor your experience to your needs.

'''Q''' - Why does the map on My Dashboard work better than the one inworld?

'''A''' - It really does work wonderfully, doesn't it? That's the map upgrade Philip created for [[Snowglobe]]. It'll be the default map inworld as well, someday.

'''Q''' - I have some suggestions that would make this better, do you want to hear them?

'''A''' - We sure do! Click the "Please send us your feedback" to let us know what you think! If you have additional feedback, please email blue@lindenlab.com

'''Q''' - I think I found a bug, how do I report it?

'''A''' - Thanks for helping! Please Create a pJira task in the project: [http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/DASH SL Dashboard Beta] and describe the problem, including any info you believe to be relevant, like the make and model of your browser.

'''Q''' - I think I'm done playing around with My Dashboard, and would like to return to the "old" look and feel of the Second Life website. How do I do that?

'''A''' - To return to the look and feel of the Second Life website that you're used to, log out of secondlife.com and log back in again.

User:Gordon Wendt

2009-09-12T23:45:34Z

Gordon Wendt: rv

<div id="background" style="border:2px solid #AAAAAA; background-color:#EEEEEE;padding:10; visibility: visible">
__NOEDITSECTION__
{{/gridlist}}

{{visl
|name=Gordon Wendt
|Mentors=*
|}}
{{skills
|Builder=*
|Scripter=*
|}}

{{SL-hCard/2.0
|account=Resident
|name=Gordon Wendt
|image=GW.jpg
|rezday=May 10th 2006 -- {{CountDown|10|05|2010| {{#var:a}} days until my rez day|Today is my rez day|Companion Cube not found}}
|about= I don't tweet as much as I should but I can also be found on twitter [http://www.twitter.com/GWendt here].
|fields={{SL-hCard/field|Achievements/Tasks|
*[[Mentor]]
*Builder
*Scripter
*Tester
*[[KB2Wiki Pilot|Reviewer]]

|links=
*[http://www.twitter.com/GWendt GWendt]
}}
}}

__TOC__

{| class="quote" id="DIS" style="width:auto; margin: auto; border:2px solid #FFCC00; padding:5px; background-color: #FFF0D9;" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="4"
| <center>''"Around here, however, we don't look backwards for very long. We keep moving forward, opening up new doors and doing new things, because we're curious...and curiosity keeps leading us down new paths."''

 '''-Walt Disney'''</center>
|}

{| class="quote" id="Random" style="width:auto; margin: auto; border:2px solid #CCCCCC; padding:5px; background-color: #FFFFFF;" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="4"
|[[Image:Icons_parature_warning.jpg]]
|<center>'''[[Special:Random|Error 42: Universe not found, please contact the mice for assistance]]'''</center>
|[[Image:Icons_parature_warning.jpg]]
|}

== JIRA ==

=== General ===
*[http://jira.secondlife.com/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?reset=true&&created%3Aprevious=-1d&sorter/field=issuekey&sorter/order=DESC Issues created in the last 24 hours]
*[http://jira.secondlife.com/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?reset=true&&updated%3Aprevious=-1d&sorter/field=issuekey&sorter/order=DESC Issues updated in the last 24 hours]

=== Specific to me ===
{{Jira Reporter}}


==People==
*{{User|Strife Onizuka}} - Too much useful stuff to actually describe here
*{{User|Zai Lynch}} - Wizard of the wiki markup
*{{User|Michelle2 Zenovka}} - Great cmake instructions for building the viewer
*{{User|Lex Neva}} - again, too many great contributions to count and/or describe
*{{User|Harleen Gretzky}} - one of the great people on the JIRA
*{{User|Jesse Barnett}} - Scripter Extraordinaire

==Meetings I try to attend==
*[[Bug triage]] - The main page for the bug triage meetings
*[[Open Source Meeting]] - The main page for the open source meetings
*[[User Experience Interest Group]] - The main for the User Experience Interest Group Meetings

== Useful pages ==
*[[Special:OldReviewedPages]] - Old reviewed pages --- RESTRICTED ACCESS TO REVIEWERS AND ADMINS
*[[Special:Random]] - Directs to a random page on the wiki
*[[Special:SpecialPages]] - A list of all the special pages for the wiki
*[[Submitting_code]] - Info on how to submit code as well as the proper way to create a patch
*[[Office Hours]] - A listing of all the Lindens' Office Hours
*[[Help:Editors_Toolbox]] - A list of helpful wiki templates
*[http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Magic_words Mediawiki magic words page]

== Miscellaneous ==
[[/sandbox]] - an internal sandbox I use to test various wiki specific changes.

[[/testbed]] - For posting my experimental ideas including scripts, scraps of code, etc... --- USE AT YOUR OWN RISK

[[/scripts]] - Some scripts that I have written that I am freely releasing

[[/snippets]] - Code snippets I"m freely releasing for anyone to use

[[Category:English speaking Volunteers|Gordon Wendt]]
[[Category:English speaking Residents|Gordon Wendt]]

User:Gordon Wendt

2009-09-12T23:44:08Z

Gordon Wendt: rm english speaking residents cat

<div id="background" style="border:2px solid #AAAAAA; background-color:#EEEEEE;padding:10; visibility: visible">
__NOEDITSECTION__
{{/gridlist}}

{{visl
|name=Gordon Wendt
|Mentors=*
|}}
{{skills
|Builder=*
|Scripter=*
|}}

{{SL-hCard/2.0
|account=Resident
|name=Gordon Wendt
|image=GW.jpg
|rezday=May 10th 2006 -- {{CountDown|10|05|2010| {{#var:a}} days until my rez day|Today is my rez day|Companion Cube not found}}
|about= I don't tweet as much as I should but I can also be found on twitter [http://www.twitter.com/GWendt here].
|fields={{SL-hCard/field|Achievements/Tasks|
*[[Mentor]]
*Builder
*Scripter
*Tester
*[[KB2Wiki Pilot|Reviewer]]

|links=
*[http://www.twitter.com/GWendt GWendt]
}}
}}

__TOC__

{| class="quote" id="DIS" style="width:auto; margin: auto; border:2px solid #FFCC00; padding:5px; background-color: #FFF0D9;" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="4"
| <center>''"Around here, however, we don't look backwards for very long. We keep moving forward, opening up new doors and doing new things, because we're curious...and curiosity keeps leading us down new paths."''

 '''-Walt Disney'''</center>
|}

{| class="quote" id="Random" style="width:auto; margin: auto; border:2px solid #CCCCCC; padding:5px; background-color: #FFFFFF;" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="4"
|[[Image:Icons_parature_warning.jpg]]
|<center>'''[[Special:Random|Error 42: Universe not found, please contact the mice for assistance]]'''</center>
|[[Image:Icons_parature_warning.jpg]]
|}

== JIRA ==

=== General ===
*[http://jira.secondlife.com/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?reset=true&&created%3Aprevious=-1d&sorter/field=issuekey&sorter/order=DESC Issues created in the last 24 hours]
*[http://jira.secondlife.com/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?reset=true&&updated%3Aprevious=-1d&sorter/field=issuekey&sorter/order=DESC Issues updated in the last 24 hours]

=== Specific to me ===
{{Jira Reporter}}


==People==
*{{User|Strife Onizuka}} - Too much useful stuff to actually describe here
*{{User|Zai Lynch}} - Wizard of the wiki markup
*{{User|Michelle2 Zenovka}} - Great cmake instructions for building the viewer
*{{User|Lex Neva}} - again, too many great contributions to count and/or describe
*{{User|Harleen Gretzky}} - one of the great people on the JIRA
*{{User|Jesse Barnett}} - Scripter Extraordinaire

==Meetings I try to attend==
*[[Bug triage]] - The main page for the bug triage meetings
*[[Open Source Meeting]] - The main page for the open source meetings
*[[User Experience Interest Group]] - The main for the User Experience Interest Group Meetings

== Useful pages ==
*[[Special:OldReviewedPages]] - Old reviewed pages --- RESTRICTED ACCESS TO REVIEWERS AND ADMINS
*[[Special:Random]] - Directs to a random page on the wiki
*[[Special:SpecialPages]] - A list of all the special pages for the wiki
*[[Submitting_code]] - Info on how to submit code as well as the proper way to create a patch
*[[Office Hours]] - A listing of all the Lindens' Office Hours
*[[Help:Editors_Toolbox]] - A list of helpful wiki templates
*[http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Magic_words Mediawiki magic words page]

== Miscellaneous ==
[[/sandbox]] - an internal sandbox I use to test various wiki specific changes.

[[/testbed]] - For posting my experimental ideas including scripts, scraps of code, etc... --- USE AT YOUR OWN RISK

[[/scripts]] - Some scripts that I have written that I am freely releasing

[[/snippets]] - Code snippets I"m freely releasing for anyone to use

[[Category:English speaking Volunteers|Gordon Wendt]]

Category:English speaking Volunteers

2009-09-12T23:43:51Z

Gordon Wendt: fixing link

{{ISO 639-3/cat-blurb|eng|Volunteers}}
[[Category:English speaking Residents]]

Category:English speaking Volunteers

2009-09-12T23:41:37Z

Gordon Wendt: added Category:English speaking Residents]], this may cause issues so will do some checks and reverse if needed.

{{ISO 639-3/cat-blurb|eng|Volunteers}}
[[English speaking Residents]]

User:Gordon Wendt

2009-09-12T23:38:46Z

Gordon Wendt: adding special:OldReviewdPages to my list of useful page links

<div id="background" style="border:2px solid #AAAAAA; background-color:#EEEEEE;padding:10; visibility: visible">
__NOEDITSECTION__
{{/gridlist}}

{{visl
|name=Gordon Wendt
|Mentors=*
|}}
{{skills
|Builder=*
|Scripter=*
|}}

{{SL-hCard/2.0
|account=Resident
|name=Gordon Wendt
|image=GW.jpg
|rezday=May 10th 2006 -- {{CountDown|10|05|2010| {{#var:a}} days until my rez day|Today is my rez day|Companion Cube not found}}
|about= I don't tweet as much as I should but I can also be found on twitter [http://www.twitter.com/GWendt here].
|fields={{SL-hCard/field|Achievements/Tasks|
*[[Mentor]]
*Builder
*Scripter
*Tester
*[[KB2Wiki Pilot|Reviewer]]

|links=
*[http://www.twitter.com/GWendt GWendt]
}}
}}

__TOC__

{| class="quote" id="DIS" style="width:auto; margin: auto; border:2px solid #FFCC00; padding:5px; background-color: #FFF0D9;" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="4"
| <center>''"Around here, however, we don't look backwards for very long. We keep moving forward, opening up new doors and doing new things, because we're curious...and curiosity keeps leading us down new paths."''

 '''-Walt Disney'''</center>
|}

{| class="quote" id="Random" style="width:auto; margin: auto; border:2px solid #CCCCCC; padding:5px; background-color: #FFFFFF;" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="4"
|[[Image:Icons_parature_warning.jpg]]
|<center>'''[[Special:Random|Error 42: Universe not found, please contact the mice for assistance]]'''</center>
|[[Image:Icons_parature_warning.jpg]]
|}

== JIRA ==

=== General ===
*[http://jira.secondlife.com/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?reset=true&&created%3Aprevious=-1d&sorter/field=issuekey&sorter/order=DESC Issues created in the last 24 hours]
*[http://jira.secondlife.com/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?reset=true&&updated%3Aprevious=-1d&sorter/field=issuekey&sorter/order=DESC Issues updated in the last 24 hours]

=== Specific to me ===
{{Jira Reporter}}


==People==
*{{User|Strife Onizuka}} - Too much useful stuff to actually describe here
*{{User|Zai Lynch}} - Wizard of the wiki markup
*{{User|Michelle2 Zenovka}} - Great cmake instructions for building the viewer
*{{User|Lex Neva}} - again, too many great contributions to count and/or describe
*{{User|Harleen Gretzky}} - one of the great people on the JIRA
*{{User|Jesse Barnett}} - Scripter Extraordinaire

==Meetings I try to attend==
*[[Bug triage]] - The main page for the bug triage meetings
*[[Open Source Meeting]] - The main page for the open source meetings
*[[User Experience Interest Group]] - The main for the User Experience Interest Group Meetings

== Useful pages ==
*[[Special:OldReviewedPages]] - Old reviewed pages --- RESTRICTED ACCESS TO REVIEWERS AND ADMINS
*[[Special:Random]] - Directs to a random page on the wiki
*[[Special:SpecialPages]] - A list of all the special pages for the wiki
*[[Submitting_code]] - Info on how to submit code as well as the proper way to create a patch
*[[Office Hours]] - A listing of all the Lindens' Office Hours
*[[Help:Editors_Toolbox]] - A list of helpful wiki templates
*[http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Magic_words Mediawiki magic words page]

== Miscellaneous ==
[[/sandbox]] - an internal sandbox I use to test various wiki specific changes.

[[/testbed]] - For posting my experimental ideas including scripts, scraps of code, etc... --- USE AT YOUR OWN RISK

[[/scripts]] - Some scripts that I have written that I am freely releasing

[[/snippets]] - Code snippets I"m freely releasing for anyone to use

[[Category:English speaking Volunteers|Gordon Wendt]]
[[Category:English speaking Residents|Gordon Wendt]]

User:Gordon Wendt/sandbox

2009-09-04T19:32:12Z

Gordon Wendt: clearing to do list

User:Gordon Wendt

2009-09-04T19:30:16Z

Gordon Wendt: adding countdown date to profile, adding twitter info

<div id="background" style="border:2px solid #AAAAAA; background-color:#EEEEEE;padding:10; visibility: visible">
__NOEDITSECTION__
{{/gridlist}}

{{visl
|name=Gordon Wendt
|Mentors=*
|}}
{{skills
|Builder=*
|Scripter=*
|}}

{{SL-hCard/2.0
|account=Resident
|name=Gordon Wendt
|image=GW.jpg
|rezday=May 10th 2006 -- {{CountDown|10|05|2010| {{#var:a}} days until my rez day|Today is my rez day|Companion Cube not found}}
|about= I don't tweet as much as I should but I can also be found on twitter [http://www.twitter.com/GWendt here].
|fields={{SL-hCard/field|Achievements/Tasks|
*[[Mentor]]
*Builder
*Scripter
*Tester
*[[KB2Wiki Pilot|Reviewer]]

|links=
*[http://www.twitter.com/GWendt GWendt]
}}
}}

__TOC__

{| class="quote" id="DIS" style="width:auto; margin: auto; border:2px solid #FFCC00; padding:5px; background-color: #FFF0D9;" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="4"
| <center>''"Around here, however, we don't look backwards for very long. We keep moving forward, opening up new doors and doing new things, because we're curious...and curiosity keeps leading us down new paths."''

 '''-Walt Disney'''</center>
|}

{| class="quote" id="Random" style="width:auto; margin: auto; border:2px solid #CCCCCC; padding:5px; background-color: #FFFFFF;" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="4"
|[[Image:Icons_parature_warning.jpg]]
|<center>'''[[Special:Random|Error 42: Universe not found, please contact the mice for assistance]]'''</center>
|[[Image:Icons_parature_warning.jpg]]
|}

== JIRA ==

=== General ===
*[http://jira.secondlife.com/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?reset=true&&created%3Aprevious=-1d&sorter/field=issuekey&sorter/order=DESC Issues created in the last 24 hours]
*[http://jira.secondlife.com/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?reset=true&&updated%3Aprevious=-1d&sorter/field=issuekey&sorter/order=DESC Issues updated in the last 24 hours]

=== Specific to me ===
{{Jira Reporter}}


==People==
*{{User|Strife Onizuka}} - Too much useful stuff to actually describe here
*{{User|Zai Lynch}} - Wizard of the wiki markup
*{{User|Michelle2 Zenovka}} - Great cmake instructions for building the viewer
*{{User|Lex Neva}} - again, too many great contributions to count and/or describe
*{{User|Harleen Gretzky}} - one of the great people on the JIRA
*{{User|Jesse Barnett}} - Scripter Extraordinaire

==Meetings I try to attend==
*[[Bug triage]] - The main page for the bug triage meetings
*[[Open Source Meeting]] - The main page for the open source meetings
*[[User Experience Interest Group]] - The main for the User Experience Interest Group Meetings

== Useful pages ==
*[[Special:Random]] - Directs to a random page on the wiki
*[[Special:SpecialPages]] - A list of all the special pages for the wiki
*[[Submitting_code]] - Info on how to submit code as well as the proper way to create a patch
*[[Office Hours]] - A listing of all the Lindens' Office Hours
*[[Help:Editors_Toolbox]] - A list of helpful wiki templates
*[http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Magic_words Mediawiki magic words page]

== Miscellaneous ==
[[/sandbox]] - an internal sandbox I use to test various wiki specific changes.

[[/testbed]] - For posting my experimental ideas including scripts, scraps of code, etc... --- USE AT YOUR OWN RISK

[[/scripts]] - Some scripts that I have written that I am freely releasing

[[/snippets]] - Code snippets I"m freely releasing for anyone to use

[[Category:English speaking Volunteers|Gordon Wendt]]
[[Category:English speaking Residents|Gordon Wendt]]