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AW Groupies/Chat Logs/Nyx-OH-Meshes-2010-09-15

2010-09-15T20:10:13Z

Latha Serevi: Created page with 'Nyx Linden's Office Hour on the topic of the new meshes. Transcript collected remotely, quick 'n dirty formatting and bonus strange ]brackets[ from the chat relay. --Latha Sere...'

Nyx Linden's Office Hour on the topic of the new meshes. Transcript collected remotely, quick 'n dirty formatting and bonus strange ]brackets[ from the chat relay. --Latha Serevi 

 [11:53] lonetorus Habilis: less yellow now
 [11:54] Tillie Ariantho: now all are white. :P
 [11:54] summse Sands: yaay
 [11:55] Daniel Voyager: hey everyone :)
 [11:55] summse Sands: hey
 [11:55] annette Cyberstar: hi hi
 [11:56] Gianna Borgnine: hi
 [11:56] summse Sands: girls couch ^^
 [11:56] summse Sands: Hey Reed
 [11:57] Reed Steamroller: hi there
 [11:57] Bronson Blackadder: reed my man hows it going?
 [11:57] Fleep Tuque: hi all :)
 [11:57] Reed Steamroller: its going
 [11:57] Honour McMillan: Fleep :) Reed :)
 [11:58] Daniel Voyager: Hi Oz.
 [11:58] Fleep Tuque: So behind this week with back to school madness, anyone know the ETA on mesh?
 [11:58] Reed Steamroller: "a few weeks"
 [11:58] Gianna Borgnine: two weeks to open beta
 [11:58] Daniel Voyager: nods
 [11:58] lonetorus Habilis: nono, 2 weeks till next anouncement
 [11:59] Fleep Tuque: Wow! That soon. Awesome
 [11:59] Gianna Borgnine: http://changingworldsbuildingdreams.com/the-status-of-mesh-support-in-second-life
 [11:59] lonetorus Habilis: the beta might still be later
 [11:59] Fleep Tuque: Ahh
 [11:59] Fleep Tuque: ok
 [11:59] Tillie Ariantho: Yah, in 2 weeks a blogpost will tell us when open beta will start.
 [11:59] Gianna Borgnine: rumor has it that two weeks is accurate as of now.. unless something happens
 [11:59] lonetorus Habilis: but i hope to get something a bit firmer at this oh XD
 [11:59] Reed Steamroller: everybody is wondering about the mesh to prim conversion rate, that link gianna just posted has an answer
 [11:59] Honour McMillan looks around and realizes she has vastly underestimated the number of sentient species there are.
 [12:00] Daniel Voyager: :D
 [12:02] ZHAO-II SEXY v2: 3% memory free
 [12:02] Botanical AntiAFK: AntiAFK: ON
 [12:02] Botanical Flight Assist: Flight Assist: ON
 [12:02] Liisa Runo: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Nyx_Linden/Office_Hours_Agenda
 [12:02] Nyx Linden: you can read (and add to) the agenda here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Nyx_Linden/Office_Hours_Agenda
 [12:02] Reed Steamroller: i'll have to add ponies
 [12:02] Nyx Linden: any objection to skipping to the meshy topics first?
 [12:03] Reed Steamroller: k
 [12:03] Cummere Mayo: as long as we get to other topics too
 [12:03] Kopilo Hallard: I thought it was fisrt
 [12:03] Fleep Tuque: here for mesh :)
 [12:03] Tillie Ariantho: Snowstorm crashes way too often without writing a dmp file. :-(
 [12:03] Gianna Borgnine: *reminds herself to stop tping Reed to OHs
 [12:03] Gianna Borgnine: lol
 [12:03] Aargle Zymurgy chuckles over the mesh bear entry
 [12:03] Falcon Linden: Good, because I've gotta get back to working on mesh soon, so talking mesh first makes me happy :)
 [12:04] Reed Steamroller: ooooooooooooo falcon
 [12:04] Nyx Linden: first topic: "What kind limitations meshes have? How they are converted to prim counts? "
 [12:04] Reed Steamroller: hay!
 [12:04] Falcon Linden: Oh yeah, I'm here!
 [12:04] Gianna Borgnine: :)
 [12:04] Reed Steamroller: hooray
 [12:04] Nyx Linden: so I'll start by saying the conversion to prim count calculation isn't final yet
 [12:04] Falcon Linden: very not final.
 [12:04] Cara Ametza: any estimation on it so far? even if a rough estimation?
 [12:05] Nyx Linden: That being said, the cost of a mesh will be based on the filesize of the highest level of detail, or the physics cost, whichever is higher
 [12:05] Falcon Linden: At least, for physics. But the basic formula is there, it's just going to amount to tweaking constants during beta
 [12:05] lonetorus Habilis: so it will be one of the goals of open beta to gather statistics on uploaded meshes?
 [12:05] Reed Steamroller: http://changingworldsbuildingdreams.com/the-status-of-mesh-support-in-second-life/comment-page-1#comment-7020
 [12:05] Falcon Linden: yes
 [12:05] lonetorus Habilis: to set a good price point?
 [12:05] Reed Steamroller: there is the answer
 [12:05] Reed Steamroller: i quoted runitai
 [12:05] Reed Steamroller: 4kb per prim
 [12:05] Falcon Linden: For the render cost, that's the current number, yes
 [12:05] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
 [12:05] Nyx Linden: 4kb in the highest LOD only, not the entire asset
 [12:05] Reed Steamroller: well i quoted runitai as directed by nyx
 [12:06] Reed Steamroller: yes thank you for not hitting us with lower lods
 [12:06] Reed Steamroller: everybody should be greatful
 [12:06] Falcon Linden: For physics it's...rather more complicated. I'll explain it, but before I do and everyone gets overwhelmed and frightened, rest assured we will provide you with all the tools you need to visualize and estimate the costs.
 [12:06] lonetorus Habilis: seems fair, but 4kb depends on the compressability of the mesh data?
 [12:06] lonetorus Habilis: or are the 4k before compression
 [12:07] Nyx Linden: 4k using our compression of mesh data, not based on your collada file size
 [12:07] Fleep Tuque is having trouble visualizing that.
 [12:07] Falcon Linden: Lonet: I believe that the compression is just float to 16bit fixed point
 [12:07] Reed Steamroller: they did a very good job of compressing the mesh data
 [12:07] Falcon Linden: so all meshes compress at the same rate
 [12:07] Nyx Linden: we'll have tools to show you what a mesh will cost on upload
 [12:07] Falcon Linden: though reusing vertices will reduce the cost
 [12:08] lonetorus Habilis: *nods*
 [12:08] Contagious Republic: can we get a sample .dea file now? even if there will be tweaks in the future?
 [12:08] Fleep Tuque: That's good Nyx
 [12:08] Rex Cronon: when u say 4k compressed, u mean 4k vertices compressed?
 [12:08] Latif Khalifa: 4 kbytes
 [12:08] Morgaine Dinova: Those tools are offline I hope, since meshes are made offline
 [12:08] lonetorus Habilis: its not just vertice data, also uv data etc
 [12:08] Kopilo Hallard: 3 verticies is the minimum for a plane
 [12:08] Reed Steamroller: normals!
 [12:08] lonetorus Habilis: morg, shown on upload
 [12:09] Contagious Republic: is that 256 positions per axis per vertex, or 65536?
 [12:09] Aargle Zymurgy: hm.... another fine mesh, Ollie
 [12:09] Falcon Linden: 65536, I think...
 [12:09] Rex Cronon: what is max nr of vertices, facets per mesh?
 [12:09] Nyx Linden: second question: Can you create your own avatar mesh?
 [12:09] Nyx Linden: answer yes!
 [12:10] Falcon Linden: Nyx: We're not at question 2
 [12:10] Reed Steamroller: :D
 [12:10] Morgaine Dinova: Well that's no bloody good to show on upload only. At least identify the function so that we can extract it into an offline utility.
 [12:10] Aargle Zymurgy: \o/
 [12:10] Aargle Zymurgy: || Yay!
 [12:10] Aargle Zymurgy: / \
 [12:10] Falcon Linden: Stop cutting me off! You always cut me off! *cries* wait...nevermind.
 [12:10] Cara Ametza: lol
 [12:10] Falcon Linden: Morgaine: easy enough.
 [12:10] Morgaine Dinova: Cool :-)
 [12:10] Nyx Linden: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nG6_twLCdxI cut off by a dancing fox (sorry :D)
 [12:10] Falcon Linden: Anyhow, here's the complicated part
 [12:10] Techwolf Lupindo: nyx has hidden knives in is robot arms.
 [12:10] Aargle Zymurgy: hey CG!
 [12:10] Reed Steamroller: we should do this in voice
 [12:10] Reed Steamroller: :D
 [12:10] Latif Khalifa waits for Falcon attempt at explaining physics cost, this should be good :P
 [12:10] VoidTraveler Seetan: si. voice
 [12:10] Honour McMillan wishes Falcon and Nyx would play nice.
 [12:11] Reed Steamroller: latif, ha
 [12:11] Gianna Borgnine: lol
 [12:11] Falcon Linden: For physics, you'll have two choices. You can either upload a physics mesh or you can use a utility in the upload tool to "decompose" it into a simpler representation. The tool lets you choose how much to simplify it, and has lots of parameters to play with. The advantage is that it will cost much less if you use the tool rather than upload a physics mesh
 [12:12] Kopilo Hallard: chat can take multiple inputs >.>
 [12:12] Tensai Hilra: can one 'decompose' a custom physics mesh?
 [12:12] Falcon Linden: Tensai: absolutely
 [12:12] Reed Steamroller: falcon, that would depend on the complexity of the physics mesh we upload, correct?
 [12:12] JB Hancroft: Once you've used the tool to select a set of parameters, are they fixed for that mesh, from then on?
 [12:12] Reed Steamroller: you want "fat triangles" if i remember correctly?
 [12:13] Fleep Tuque: So the total "prim cost" for a mesh will be LOD cost + physics cost?
 [12:13] Nyx Linden: you set the physics mesh on upload of the asset
 [12:13] Falcon Linden: Yes, it computes the simpler representation in the viewer and uploads them
 [12:13] Morgaine Dinova: Oh, that's great if you can set your own physics mesh!
 [12:13] Falcon Linden: Fleep: No, it will be the greater of the two
 [12:13] lonetorus Habilis: reed, so vertices, normals, uv coordinates, smoothing groups, material id, skinning weights, did i miss anything?
 [12:13] Falcon Linden: If you choose to use a mesh instead, the physics cost will be different at different prim scales to account for the increased work the physics engine has to do when the triangle density is high
 [12:13] Nyx Linden: Fleep: no, the cost will be whichever value is higher
 [12:13] Reed Steamroller: beats me, ask nyx :D
 [12:13] Latif Khalifa: The total cost is physics cost or mesh asset size cost whichever is greater, the last time this was brought up
 [12:13] Fleep Tuque: Thanks
 [12:13] Falcon Linden: BUT the flip side is also true. Want to build a flat landscape? Two triangles, covering the whole sim? The physis cost will be 1 prim or less. (Yes, it can be less in some cases!)
 [12:14] Object: Hello, Avatar!
 [12:14] lonetorus Habilis: i have some early dae files that work with sl mesh, who was interested?
 [12:14] Fleep Tuque: er everyone? ;)
 [12:14] Reed Steamroller: you guys are forcing lod on mesh beta now right?
 [12:14] lonetorus Habilis: ill stick some on pastebin then
 [12:14] Falcon Linden: We're going to modify the viewer so you can't accidentally scale your mesh to the point where you'd exceed the parcel's prim limits, just to be safe
 [12:14] JB Hancroft: lonetorus, I am, please.
 [12:14] JB Hancroft: thanks
 [12:14] Fleep Tuque: Thanks IO
 [12:14] Qie Niangao: so: no scale limits will remain?
 [12:14] Fleep Tuque: er Io
 [12:14] Falcon Linden: Reed: yes, we are
 [12:14] Reed Steamroller: yeah
 [12:15] Falcon Linden: Qie: Oh, yeah, good point
 [12:15] Kopilo Hallard: Falcon: but that would be useful for offworld builds
 [12:15] Reed Steamroller: scale limitations != good
 [12:15] Cummere Mayo: wait so we can use meshes to landscape too? will thhere eventually be some kinda editor to allow a mesh for the groundshape? or do you mean we have to use a prim to do it?
 [12:15] Reed Steamroller: if you limit scale, i will cry
 [12:15] Falcon Linden: We're working on determining whether we can increase the max scale. We do hope to, but it definitely won't be ready in time for the start of beta
 [12:15] Nyx Linden: Cummere: you would have to use a mesh object
 [12:15] Fleep Tuque: Wait how will it calculate parcel prim limit .. that doesn't make sense to me
 [12:15] JB Hancroft doesn't like to see grown avatars crying....
 [12:15] Fleep Tuque: The parcel I'm standing on when I upload a file is almost irrelevant.
 [12:16] Fleep Tuque: Must be missing something there.
 [12:16] Falcon Linden: Cummere: What you'd do is flatten the terrain which, because of some separate improvements Andrew made, will effectively remove it from the physics system
 [12:16] Falcon Linden: the one problem right now is you won't get your mesh to generate ground collision events in scripts. That's something we hope to fix at some point, but isn't a priority right now
 [12:16] JB Hancroft: so it's not a mesh terrain, but meshes on top of the terrain... same effective result
 [12:16] Fleep Tuque: Oh oh scale the mesh up on a parcel you mean, doh. Ignore me. :)
 [12:17] Cummere Mayo: thats okay, most roleplayers are used to it, because half our "ground" is prims as it is anyways
 [12:17] lonetorus Habilis: http://pastebin.com/K57xFuU3 <- clean cube mesh
 [12:17] Reed Steamroller: hey nyx, how about those bone offsets?
 [12:17] Nyx Linden: workin on it :)
 [12:18] Falcon Linden: Unless there are any questions about the physics cost, I'll yield to Nyx :)
 [12:18] Object: Hello, Avatar!
 [12:18] Cummere Mayo: i have a couple falcon
 [12:18] Falcon Linden: go for it
 [12:18] Latif Khalifa: Fleep, there is caveat with meshes and physics costs. If you resize mesh object it's prim count might increase. What Falcon was saying is that if you scale the mesh, you cannot scale it beyond the number of free prims on the parcel, otjerwise rescaling the mesh will start returning objects.
 [12:18] Contagious Republic: yes, nothing like a friendly lava pit, acid river, fountain of blood rundown, tiny decayed wires and cogs to liven up a roleplay ground.
 [12:18] Falcon Linden: Latif: Actually, we're trying to make it so the viewer just won't let you do that by accident.
 [12:18] lonetorus Habilis: falcon, clients that dont use 2.x mesh support will still bump into the (invisible) physical mesh?
 [12:19] Falcon Linden: yes
 [12:19] Falcon Linden: physics is all server side.
 [12:19] Aargle Zymurgy: oh, hopefully the coalesced object bug fixed by then
 [12:19] Cummere Mayo: first is it gonna be harder on the phsyics engine and times to use mesh trees over traditional sculpties? and second how ahrd will it be to walk on the mesh trees? will it be more closely matching what you would "expect" of a RL tree? as opposed to say the walk mesh being 6 m above it?
 [12:19] Object: first is it gonna be harder on the phsyics engine and times to use mesh trees over traditional sculpties? and second how ahrd will it be to walk on the mesh trees? will it be more closely matching what you would "expect" of a RL tree? as opposed to say the walk mesh being 6 m above it?
 [12:20] lonetorus Habilis: that depends entirely on the physical mesh defined for your tree model
 [12:20] Object: lonetorus Habilis:that depends entirely on the physical mesh defined for your tree model
 [12:20] Tensai Hilra: maybee I missed it, will these limits be lifted if you simply phantom the mesh? or do I have the wrong idea
 [12:20] Object: Tensai Hilra:maybee I missed it, will these limits be lifted if you simply phantom the mesh? or do I have the wrong idea
 [12:20] Reed Steamroller: that is dependent on how you set it up physically
 [12:20] Object: Reed Steamroller:that is dependent on how you set it up physically
 [12:20] Reed Steamroller: yeah what lonetorus said
 [12:20] Object: Reed Steamroller:yeah what lonetorus said
 [12:20] Falcon Linden: Good question. Yes, it will be harder on the physics engine than scupties, but not much if you make a quality physics mesh and a quality simplification
 [12:20] Object: Falcon Linden:Good question. Yes, it will be harder on the physics engine than scupties, but not much if you make a quality physics mesh and a quality simplification
 [12:20] Hermit Barber: Is Nyx's awesome bear(TM) ready for release along with Mesh?
 [12:20] Object: Hermit Barber:Is Nyx's awesome bear(TM) ready for release along with Mesh?
 [12:20] lonetorus Habilis: you can have a physical box around your tree if you wish
 [12:20] Object: lonetorus Habilis:you can have a physical box around your tree if you wish
 [12:20] Tensai Hilra: I could care less if peole run into my trees
 [12:20] Object: Tensai Hilra:I could care less if peole run into my trees
 [12:20] Falcon Linden: AND you can actually make it easier on the engine
 [12:20] Object: Falcon Linden:AND you can actually make it easier on the engine
 [12:20] Contagious Republic: how about you give the prim a limiter field, so no one accidentally makes a 14900 prim mesh and then can't find it? (happened with megaprim sculpties early, a lot, but they couldn't take 14900 prims)
 [12:20] Object: Contagious Republic:how about you give the prim a limiter field, so no one accidentally makes a 14900 prim mesh and then can't find it? (happened with megaprim sculpties early, a lot, but they couldn't take 14900 prims)
 [12:20] lonetorus Habilis: or something more like a tree
 [12:20] Object: lonetorus Habilis:or something more like a tree
 [12:20] Reed Steamroller: falcon, when is that new havok version making it into open beta?
 [12:20] Falcon Linden: because you'll be allowed to say "Don't use any physics for this mesh. Instead, use these invisible linked prims for collisions"
 [12:21] Reed Steamroller: will that happen at the same time as mesh open beta?
 [12:21] Reed Steamroller: did it already happen and i'm just blind?
 [12:21] Master R.1:
 [12:21] Tensai Hilra nods
 [12:21] Falcon Linden: Tensai: making it phantom won't help, but they'll be a new setting "No Physics" that will do the same thing.
 [12:21] Falcon Linden: Reed: which version?
 [12:21] VoidTraveler Seetan: Will there be any updates on vehicle physics?
 [12:22] Tensai Hilra: GoOD... that will help in aircraft too
 [12:22] Contagious Republic: much like ghostcrafter already do, 'xcept it will be official
 [12:22] lonetorus Habilis: when open beta starts, will people have to join a group to go to the enw mesh estate? (woot! 42 sregions)
 [12:22] Cummere Mayo: (9sorry if my questions sound stupid. im not a programer/3d designer... but i want to know how i can use this stuff to better my sims and builds)
 [12:22] Falcon Linden: Void: Only that you'll be able to have more than 32 prims as long as no more than 32 have a physics shape.
 [12:22] VoidTraveler Seetan nods

 [12:23] ]Falcon Linden[ Did I miss any questions?
 [12:23] ]Hermit Barber[ When will mesh be backported to the 1.23 based clients that Jack said inflexible and incompetent (codespeak for old and female )would be able to keep using?
 [12:23] ]lonetorus Habilis[ cummere, you miost definitly can, but as everything else, there are good 3d developers, and there are better ones, all depends how you use the tools available
 [12:23] ]JB Hancroft[ you'll be able to have a physics shape on a prim-by-prim basis... no physics shape for some prims at all?
 [12:23] ]Rex Cronon[ is there a wiki page about meshes?
 [12:23] ]lonetorus Habilis[ falcon, when open beta starts, will people have to join a group to go to the enw mesh estate? (woot! 42 sregions)
 [12:23] ]Nyx Linden[ we're not backporting to 1.23
 [12:23] ]Contagious Republic[ will that make my product ghostcrafter entirely obsolete then? i better start giving it away free bundled with my other tools then
 [12:23] ]Reed Steamroller[ yes
 [12:23] ]Reed Steamroller[ you missed mine
 [12:23] ]Hermit Barber[ And I asked about Nyx's Awesome Bear(TM)?
 [12:23] ]Reed Steamroller[ new havok
 [12:23] ]Reed Steamroller[ the awesome one
 [12:24] ]Honour McMillan[ Ionetorus just came off my christmas card list
 [12:24] ]TheBlack Box[ any plany for a more complete collada support in the future ? allowing scenes ... and with LSL-interface to the transforms of nodes ? :)
 [12:24] ]Tensai Hilra[ a side note: the 'No Physics' option, can that be applied to sculpt and prim?
 [12:24] ]Falcon Linden[ Woah, woah, slow down :P
 [12:24] ]Cummere Mayo[ when this stuff goes live on the main grid, will the documentation team have video tutorials and adewuate documentation so that (for once) we can easily learn how to import and use these meshes? also will the meshes be their own asset or just like any other prim?
 [12:24] ]Nyx Linden[ keep it to physics questions for now, I'll answer the others soon :)
 [12:24] ]Falcon Linden[ JB: Yes, physics shape per prim
 [12:24] ]Qie Niangao[ Rex, there was a wiki page; Jeremy removed it back in May. No update since.
 [12:24] ]JB Hancroft[ thanks Falcon
 [12:24] ]Falcon Linden[ Lonet: no idea about groups. That's not my thing.
 [12:24] ]Falcon Linden[ Contagious: Probably, yes
 [12:25] ]Falcon Linden[ Reed: Havok 7 is out. Havok 2010.1 or .2 is our next likely upgrade target, but neither have been released yet.
 [12:25] ]Falcon Linden[ Tensai: No physics can be applied to any prim that is not a root prim.
 [12:25] ]Reed Steamroller[ falcon, any ETA on that?
 [12:25] ]Rex Cronon[ well. i am interested in a wiki page with all the details about meshes. it will also make life easier for lindens. they will have to answer less questions:)
 [12:25] ]Reed Steamroller[ or "when its done"
 [12:25] ]Latif Khalifa[ Cummere, mesh shows up in your inventory like other assets, say texture, or sound
 [12:25] ]Tensai Hilra nods[
 [12:25] ]Qie Niangao[ Rex: completely agreed
 [12:25] ]lonetorus Habilis[ theblack, as far as i know qarls awsome importer does scenes, you should then be able to manipulate the individual objects as you please (also with lsl)
 [12:25] Dahlia Trimble: are physics proxies triangle meshes? convex meshes?
 [12:25] ]Nyx Linden[ wiki documentation will go up with the open beta
 [12:26] ]Falcon Linden[ Sorry, I didn't mean 2010.1 and .2. .1 is out, but we're skipping it. .2 is due in a few months
 [12:26] ]Mathieu Basiat[ so terrain meshes would be useless with the old viewers
 [12:26] ]Cummere Mayo[ latif as its own kind then?
 [12:26] ]Reed Steamroller[ yeah mesh scene importer works like a charm
 [12:26] ]Latif Khalifa[ Cummere, yes
 [12:26] ]Falcon Linden[ mathieu: meshes in general will be useless with the old viewers.
 [12:26] ]Cummere Mayo[ thank you latif :)
 [12:26] ]Honour McMillan[ ooops apoligies Ionetorus - it's Hermit on my black list
 [12:26] ]Mathieu Basiat[ will they render at all?
 [12:26] ]Nyx Linden[ any remaining physics questions before we move on to general mesh topics?
 [12:26] ]lonetorus Habilis[ honour, what did i say? ;)
 [12:26] ]LathaSerevi[ woofs from irc://irc.quickfox.net/groupies ....
 [12:27] ]Mathieu Basiat[ in the old viewer i mean
 [12:27] ]Falcon Linden[ Physics questions?
 [12:27] ]Honour McMillan[ Ionetorus it wasn't you - I apologize :)
 [12:27] Dahlia Trimble: are physics proxies triangle meshes? convex meshes?
 [12:27] ]lonetorus Habilis[ hehe
 [12:27] ]Latif Khalifa[ there was some changes in the viewre, at some point in the edit tool you could select prim type sculpt, subtype mesh, and drop the mesh asset where the sculpt image would go. but that was removed, and then added, and removed again, i have no idea what's the latest lol
 [12:28] ]Falcon Linden[ You can choose to make the physics proxy a triangle mesh or an auto-generated (with tunable parameters) set of convex hulls.
 [12:28] ]Cummere Mayo[ this is kinda a physics kinda not... but will the code required to render them be made availible tot eh tvps before this goes live to the main grid?
 [12:28] ]Falcon Linden[ I have no idea
 [12:28] ]Tillie Ariantho[ did you see dahlia's question? She's in via chat relay.
 [12:28] Dahlia Trimble: do the hulls count as prims for prim count?
 [12:28] ]Falcon Linden[ Tillie: yes, I replied.
 [12:28] ]Tillie Ariantho[ ok ;)
 [12:28] ]lonetorus Habilis[ the source should afaik be open when the open beta starts
 [12:29] ]Hermit Barber[ Honour: Being female,. I thought it was very special of Jack to make a special exception for us :-P
 [12:29] ]lonetorus Habilis[ though i suspect tpv's will have a easier time moving to 2.x base and porting the old UI
 [12:29] ]Falcon Linden[ Dahlia: The physics cost of a mesh represented as hulls will be equal to some constant times (total_number_of_vertices - 4*number_of_hulls)
 [12:29] ]Falcon Linden[ or so
 [12:29] ]Latif Khalifa[ Dahlia, the physics and asset size costs are not added, whicever is bigger, is how much the mesh object will cst
 [12:29] Dahlia Trimble: ty Falcon :)
 [12:29] ]Falcon Linden[ constants subject to change without advanced notice before release :)
 [12:29] ]Honour McMillan[ :) I'll get my baseball bat for his next OH
 [12:29] ]Contagious Republic[ can we get our hands on one of the currently compatible .DEA files so we can start coding mesh tools right now?
 [12:29] ]Reed Steamroller[ for Maya and 3dsmax users, I've found opencollada to be the best export tool
 [12:29] ]Reed Steamroller[ http://www.opencollada.org/download.html
 [12:30] ]Reed Steamroller[ opencollada is also open source
 [12:30] ]lonetorus Habilis[ contagious, see my above pastebin url
 [12:30] ]Falcon Linden[ Dahlia: but that constant is expected to be very small. Right now it's 0.04
 [12:30] ]lonetorus Habilis[ http://pastebin.com/K57xFuU3
 [12:30] ]Nyx Linden[ any last physics questions?
 [12:30] ]Falcon Linden[ so a hull with 29 verts would be 1 prim.
 [12:30] ]Mathieu Basiat[ one more question about using meshes as terrain... how will they show up on the map view? will it make the minimap useless?
 [12:31] ]lonetorus Habilis[ contagious, but more collada options are supported than represented in that dae file
 [12:31] ]lonetorus Habilis[ i kept it simple on purpose
 [12:31] ]Nyx Linden[ that's a map tile generation problem Mathieu
 [12:31] Dahlia Trimble: I'll have more later I'm sure ;)
 [12:31] ]Contagious Republic[ sure i'll have meshcrafter make the basics before mesh is officially out
 [12:31] ]Fleep Tuque[ (The minimap already is useless for seeing anything but people.)
 [12:31] ]Imaze Rhiano[ huh... we didnt' cover een half of questions in agenda :(
 [12:31] ]Falcon Linden[ All right, I've gotta get going and work on that whole mesh physics thing
 [12:31] ]Hermit Barber[ Mathieu: I keep hoping they will add a pair of flags, one for casts shadows and another for shows on minimap.
 [12:32] ]lonetorus Habilis[ nyx, do you have any idea if the sim code will be updated to be mesh aware for tile generation?
 [12:32] ]Mathieu Basiat[ well, it certainly is useless in viewer 2
 [12:32] ]Reed Steamroller[ Falcon, and a pony.
 [12:32] ]Nyx Linden[ lone: I'll look into it
 [12:32] ]Falcon Linden[ Reed: Never! No pot o' gold, either!
 [12:32] ]Reed Steamroller[ New announcement: Mesh objects to be measured in ponies, not prims.
 [12:32] ]Nyx Linden[ alright next agenda topic: Can use current bones/armature of LL avatar mesh in your avatar meshes?
 [12:33] ]lonetorus Habilis[ yes
 [12:33] ]Nyx Linden[ yes! you just have to specify vertex weights for the bones :)
 [12:33] ]Reed Steamroller[ yes, but thats the only skeleton you can use :(
 [12:33] ]Nyx Linden[ I refer you back to the dancing fox http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nG6_twLCdxI
 [12:33] ]lonetorus Habilis[ when will we have offsets for bones, for arbitary skinning?
 [12:33] ]Reed Steamroller[ i want wings and a tail and antlers
 [12:33] Dahlia Trimble: vertex limit for avatar meshes?
 [12:33] ]lonetorus Habilis[ (and support in anim files)
 [12:33] ]Hermit Barber[ I want to be able to be an amoeba with pseudopodia :-P
 [12:34] ]Nyx Linden[ offsets won't give arbitrary skinning, but will be helpful still.
 [12:34] ]Reed Steamroller[ yeah
 [12:34] ]Nyx Linden[ we're looking into bone offsets, but its not ready yet.
 [12:34] ]lonetorus Habilis[ so still limited to the set number of bones and their hirachy?
 [12:34] ]Nyx Linden[ for now, yes
 [12:34] ]lonetorus Habilis[ we want quadropeds
 [12:34] Dahlia Trimble: how about morphs? like hand gestures or speech?
 [12:34] ]Contagious Republic[ but you're not forced to use an arm as an arm, you can make a wing, right?
 [12:34] ]Reed Steamroller[ i'll be able to be a terradactyl with bone offsets
 [12:34] ]JB Hancroft passes lone 4 peds[
 [12:35] ]Tillie Ariantho[ More to come with an avatar 2.0 project? ;)
 [12:35] ]lonetorus Habilis[ contagious, yes
 [12:35] ]lonetorus Habilis[ when its done (offsets)
 [12:35] ]Tensai Hilra waits for the centipede bone set[
 [12:35] ]Nyx Linden[ next question: Can you hide part of verticles by textures (like using alpha texture)?
 [12:36] ]Nyx Linden[ alpha blending: yes. alpha masking: not yet.
 [12:36] ]Nyx Linden[ meshes will be textured like prims
 [12:36] ]lonetorus Habilis[ with mesh material id assigning as prim "sides" so textures can be changed with lsl
 [12:36] ]Contagious Republic[ will we be able to use some texture on part of the mesh, and some other texture on some other part, to help with alpha sorting bugs?
 [12:36] ]Tensai Hilra[ so am I right reading into that as Blend/Mask an option later on? and for all prims?
 [12:36] ]Qie Niangao[ woah, can we get back to Dahlia's question about morphs? Will those be supported just by rigging to the skeleton?
 [12:37] ]Latif Khalifa[ on the plus side that means you can make translucent and glowing avatars ;)
 [12:37] ]Nyx Linden[ Tensai: its something we want to do eventually. No word yet on when.
 [12:37] ]Reed Steamroller[ shiney avatars too!
 [12:37] ]Nyx Linden[ Contagious: you can specify "sides" of a mesh to be textured independently.
 [12:37] ]lonetorus Habilis[ yes, there is a new shiny material
 [12:37] ]Reed Steamroller[ qarl called my purple one a condom :(
 [12:37] ]lonetorus Habilis[ well, mirror material
 [12:38] ]Cummere Mayo[ nyx, are there plans to eventally allow, extra limbs?
 [12:38] ]lonetorus Habilis[ nyx, can you say something about the mirror material
 [12:38] ]Imaze Rhiano[ not yet specual texturing?
 [12:38] ]Nyx Linden[ Dahlia: skeletal animation only for now, no facial anims :/
 [12:38] ]Imaze Rhiano[ ... specular ...
 [12:38] ]Reed Steamroller[ imaze no
 [12:38] ]Reed Steamroller[ new shiney yes
 [12:38] ]Reed Steamroller[ psudo reflections on the very shiney setting
 [12:38] ]lonetorus Habilis[ looks good imo
 [12:38] ]Reed Steamroller[ yep
 [12:38] ]Nyx Linden[ don't have advanced materials yet
 [12:39] ]Reed Steamroller[ YET, right?
 [12:39] ]VoidTraveler Seetan[ shiney happy avatars having phun
 [12:39] ]Honour McMillan is getting inspired to go back into Blender - I'd better get blood pressure pills.[
 [12:39] ]Aargle Zymurgy sees T2 avatars in the future[
 [12:39] ]lonetorus Habilis[ reed, materials are for next xmas ;)
 [12:39] ]Hermit Barber[ MIrror mirror on the wall, aren't you scared you're going to fall? MIrror mirror off the wall, did maybe hurt a ball?
 [12:39] ]Nyx Linden[ next question falcon already answered: How are physical collision handles with meshes?
 [12:39] ]Contagious Republic[ mirror material? infinite rendering loop senses, tingling... companion cube is worried
 [12:39] ]JB Hancroft[ maze of little passages, all alike
 [12:39] ]lonetorus Habilis[ contagious, pseudo mirror ;)
 [12:39] ]Reed Steamroller[ the mirroring isn't raytraced...
 [12:40] ]Nyx Linden[ meshes first, materials later :)
 [12:40] ]VoidTraveler Seetan[ oooohhh
 [12:40] ]Reed Steamroller[ its more like an on the fly auto environment map
 [12:40] ]Nyx Linden[ next question: Is your bear going to be mesh bear?
 [12:40] ]Nyx Linden[ answer: of course
 [12:40] ]lonetorus Habilis[ when
 [12:40] ]Reed Steamroller[ who's going to make it?
 [12:40] Saijanai Kuhn: hey latha hey dahlia
 [12:40] ]lonetorus Habilis[ we should all get to add a bit to his bear
 [12:40] ]Contagious Republic[ defend your rights to own and arm bears! lolz
 [12:41] ]VoidTraveler Seetan[ hah
 [12:41] ]JB Hancroft[ bears with arms!
 [12:41] ]Nyx Linden[ I'm going to make it, and when I get some time to do so :)
 [12:41] Latha Serevi: hey Sai and everyone at the Nyx OH :)
 [12:41] ]Tillie Ariantho[ Hello Sai :)
 [12:41] Saijanai Kuhn: actually I'm right behind you Latha
 [12:41] ]Reed Steamroller[ the best part of that nyx, will be that you'll be able to rig it and wear it if you wanted to
 [12:41] Latha Serevi: (sai just woke up here in TBT and may not have known he had so much company ;) )
 [12:41] ]Nyx Linden[ maybe for version 2.0 Reed :)
 [12:41] Saijanai Kuhn: in fact, yeah
 [12:41] ]Contagious Republic[ bear says: only you can prevent video card overload! (this is going to be necessary as some people will want to wear 50 complex meshes)
 [12:41] ]VoidTraveler Seetan[ How would sales be made for customer to buy mehs avatar for eg?
 [12:42] ]Nyx Linden[ last mesh question on the agenda: Will open beta start in 2 weeks, or later?
 [12:42] ]Tillie Ariantho[ Sai: its 40 people over here at Nyx' :)
 [12:42] ]Reed Steamroller[ they're putting in restrictions on ARC soon
 [12:42] ]Nyx Linden[ later.
 [12:42] ]Reed Steamroller[ and with good reason
 [12:42] ]Fleep Tuque[ Srsly??
 [12:42] ]lonetorus Habilis[ contagious, meshes can be more efficient, prims contain lots of polygons that are not visible but still have to be rendered
 [12:42] ]Fleep Tuque[ ARC restrictions?"
 [12:42] ]Nyx Linden[ we're going to announce when open beta will be in 2 weeks.
 [12:43] ]Reed Steamroller[ will the announcement in 2 weeks be "we're opening beta testing TODAY!"
 [12:43] ]Reed Steamroller[ ?
 [12:43] ]Contagious Republic[ not to mention LOD proofing with quadruples, lol
 [12:43] ]Reed Steamroller[ :D
 [12:43] ]lonetorus Habilis[ are there set goals for the open beta?
 [12:43] ]Reed Steamroller[ yeah restricting the amount of stuff you can wear on your avatar
 [12:43] ]lonetorus Habilis[ and what are the most important ones, if yes
 [12:43] ]Nyx Linden[ goals for open beta are to get as many people trying it out as possible so we know what issues we need to fix
 [12:44] ]Fleep Tuque[ Not sure about that, the ARC restrictions.
 [12:44] ]Contagious Republic[ arc = avatar rendering cost. shows who's crashing everyone's viewer with 5000 individually scripted highly textured hair
 [12:44] ]Reed Steamroller[ philip mentioned it at SLCC.... i thought you were there :D
 [12:44] ]Nyx Linden[ let me be clear: this will be a technology beta, not a product beta. Things are going to be a bit rough at first
 [12:44] ]Gianna Borgnine[ lol Reed
 [12:44] ]Reed Steamroller[ please don't hit me fleep
 [12:44] ]Fleep Tuque[ Sure but for a machinima or some other purposes.. I dunno hard limit sounds worrisome.
 [12:44] ]Nyx Linden[ some things will change between the beta and release
 [12:44] ]lonetorus Habilis[ nyx, will we get the 2048^2px textures?
 [12:44] ]Fleep Tuque[ laugh Reed :)
 [12:45] ]Nyx Linden[ no change to max texture resolution
 [12:45] ]Qie Niangao[ well, let's talk about avatar complexity restrictions a sec. What are the plans, when the "new standard" AV will want to be 3 orders of magnitude more complex to render as the current standard--ignoring attachments.
 [12:45] ]lonetorus Habilis[ nyx, will there be tiered versions of mesh, free semi pro and pro, with different abilities?
 [12:45] ]Fleep Tuque[ I'd rather some kind of warning syste, so chickie with a 25,000 ARC has some notice she's being a jerk. ;)
 [12:45] ]Contagious Republic[ how about allowing 8192x128 textures for oblong sculpts?
 [12:45] ]Gianna Borgnine[ I don't know that they are going to "limit ARC" Philip just said some kind of restriction
 [12:45] ]Contagious Republic[ which are the same size as 1024x1024 textures really
 [12:45] ]Nyx Linden[ oooh ARC my favorite topic :D
 [12:45] Saijanai Kuhn admires his arc of 1
 [12:45] ]Hermit Barber[ Nyx: That will make mesh dangly bits as about half of the avatars in second life seems to like their sex rough :-P
 [12:46] ]Reed Steamroller[ contagious, whats the point.... we're talking about mesh support here
 [12:46] ]Reed Steamroller[ you could just do whatever you wanted to do with a crazy oblong sculptie like that w/ a mesh instead
 [12:46] ]Nyx Linden[ so I'm looking into changing the ARC algorithm.....again
 [12:46] Saijanai Kuhn: as long as I'm still #1
 [12:46] ]Hermit Barber[ Nyx: s/That will make mesh dangly bits as about/That will make mesh dangly bits extremely popular, as about/
 [12:46] ]Reed Steamroller[ and do it more easily
 [12:46] ]Reed Steamroller[ not to mention more efficiently
 [12:46] ]lonetorus Habilis[ oh noes, you will ruin my carefully mined database of ARC scores for the whole grid
 [12:47] ]Reed Steamroller[ i'm not saying sculpties won't have their place
 [12:47] ]Tillie Ariantho[ Ione: ahaha. ;)
 [12:47] ]Reed Steamroller[ but the days of sculptigamy are coming to an end... thank god.
 [12:47] ]Nyx Linden[ the current algorithm isn't really great for getting actual complexity measurements
 [12:47] ]Contagious Republic[ sim owner will want to be able to control ARC maxes in their sims. Some people do machinima, and some people run sandboxes, you can't have those people be happy with same max
 [12:47] ]lonetorus Habilis[ reed, depends on final cost, if its too expensive sculpts will still have a place for specific things
 [12:47] ]Hermit Barber[ lonetorus: You do lnow that there is competition amongst the fashionista to get it as high as possible? I have managed and ARC of just over 116,000 so far.
 [12:48] ]Reed Steamroller[ that is both rediculous and retarded
 [12:48] ]Nyx Linden[ Hermit: I've gotten ARC of a billion. :D
 [12:48] ]lonetorus Habilis[ and i used to have a arc of 300k
 [12:48] ]lonetorus Habilis[ but that was a nyx bug
 [12:48] ]lonetorus Habilis[ ;)
 [12:48] ]Hermit Barber[ Nyx: Grin :-)
 [12:48] ]Gianna Borgnine[ lol
 [12:48] ]Tensai Hilra managed 1M+ but it crashed[
 [12:48] ]Reed Steamroller[ 40 prim shoes... thats 80k poly's for YOUR SHOES
 [12:48] ]Cummere Mayo[ Ive een somre higher legitimate arcs then 116k hermit ><
 [12:48] ]Reed Steamroller[ that stuff must come to an end
 [12:49] ]Morgaine Dinova[ Limiting what a machinimist can achieve on their own sim just because it would be excessive in public would be very bad.
 [12:49] ]Contagious Republic[ some people still distribute supermegaprim to reach ARC caps and hide avatar. sad
 [12:49] ]Reed Steamroller[ morgaine, true
 [12:49] ]Hermit Barber[ Reed: Unless you make them of cut torii.
 [12:49] ]JB Hancroft[ Nyx - what are you thinking ab out for the new ARC algorithm, then?
 [12:49] ]Reed Steamroller[ that is a caveat i will admit
 [12:49] ]Tillie Ariantho[ With meshes I think you have have fab 1 prim shoes at last. :)
 [12:49] ]Fleep Tuque[ Agree mOrgaine, that was my point too.
 [12:49] ]Cummere Mayo[ some idiot on twisted hunt had almsot 500k using viewer 2.0 and then wondered why they kept freezing and why people were getting mad at them
 [12:49] ]Tillie Ariantho[ can have
 [12:49] ]Rex Cronon[ what business has a sim owner controlling what prims u wear? the sim doesn't render your prims
 [12:49] ]Fleep Tuque[ Not just machinimists but educators and researchers as well might have legitimate uses for high ARC avs.
 [12:50] ]Morgaine Dinova[ Yes Fleep
 [12:50] ]Nyx Linden[ I have some tweaking and performance testing to do for my new ARC algorithm, but It will be released when we go to open beta (or before, if I work quickly)
 [12:50] ]Reed Steamroller[ ok, so limit ARC on your own system
 [12:50] ]Reed Steamroller[ say, "I don't wnat to see detail past 1000 ARC"
 [12:50] ]Qie Niangao[ but a "research" avatar of super high complexity could be a *weapon* outside the lab.
 [12:50] ]Aargle Zymurgy[ Well, Back to the old drawing board
 [12:50] ]Hermit Barber[ Cummere: A small necklace of cut torri nicely textured with high resolution textures can make time run backwards for everyone on a sim.
 [12:50] ]Reed Steamroller[ so the viewer doesn't show it to you
 [12:51] ]Reed Steamroller[ then people could be as complex as they want
 [12:51] ]Nyx Linden[ we are still investigating how we are going to handle the rendering of really complex avs, please don't speculate too widly about what we're doing with ARC just yet
 [12:51] ]JB Hancroft[ Nyx - I'll be interested to see how we can use it to monitor lag sources in large gatherings
 [12:51] ]Reed Steamroller[ and it wouldn't matter at all to you
 [12:51] ]Cummere Mayo[ anyways theres lots of other items still on nyxs agenda and only ten minutes left. can we move on past arc please?
 [12:51] ]Reed Steamroller[ they might end up looking funny though
 [12:51] ]Fleep Tuque[ (ARC has always seemed an education problem as much as a technical one to me.)
 [12:51] ]Nyx Linden[ correct Fleep
 [12:51] ]Gianna Borgnine[ agreed
 [12:51] ]Fleep Tuque[ Ignorance is not bliss in this case. ;)
 [12:51] ]JB Hancroft[ Maybe Avatar impostor option about a certain ARC cutoff?
 [12:51] ]Nyx Linden[ any other mesh questions real quick?
 [12:51] ]JB Hancroft[ *above
 [12:52] ]Reed Steamroller[ will your mesh bear be a pony?
 [12:52] ]Tensai Hilra[ my 0.02L$ , client side restrictions seem appropriate... I didnt spend 500 bux on a video card for basic avatars
 [12:52] ]Reed Steamroller[ that would be appropriate
 [12:52] ]lonetorus Habilis[ ill be here after oh and answer any mesh questions i know the answer to
 [12:52] ]Hermit Barber[ Nyx: Can you texture every facet with a different texture? On each side or just one?
 [12:52] ]Contagious Republic[ jb: nice, so people with old quasi-fossilised computers can come to meetings here without looking at the wall like i do
 [12:52] ]Nyx Linden[ Hermit: no. there is a limit to the number of different faces you can use
 [12:52] ]Nyx Linden[ (in a single mesh)
 [12:53] ]Alimah Destiny[ sry, I came in late, will we be able to use normal maps?
 [12:53] ]Latif Khalifa[ It was 6 or 8, i forgot lol
 [12:53] ]Hermit Barber[ :-(
 [12:53] ]Imaze Rhiano[ face = UV map?
 [12:53] ]Reed Steamroller[ yeah... uv tile
 [12:53] ]Reed Steamroller[ in a way
 [12:53] ]lonetorus Habilis[ latif, 8 sides, like regular prims
 [12:54] ]Nyx Linden[ Hermit, if you have a genuine use case for downloading a separate texture for every single face, I have some content efficiency issues with how you're making your builds :)
 [12:54] ]lonetorus Habilis[ nyx, what will be done to educate builders in efficient and "correct" mesh methods?
 [12:54] ]Hermit Barber[ Lonetorus: A tube can have 9
 [12:55] ]Reed Steamroller[ lonetorus: cause and effect
 [12:55] ]Reed Steamroller[ and poly to prim conversion
 [12:55] ]Nyx Linden[ lonetorus: great question!
 [12:55] Dahlia Trimble: cause and effect hasnt worked so far
 [12:55] ]JB Hancroft[ Mesh Mentors!
 [12:55] ]Reed Steamroller[ nyx, any word on upload fees?
 [12:55] ]Fleep Tuque snickers at Dahlia.[
 [12:55] ]Reed Steamroller[ lonetorus, you could join Mesh Dev group
 [12:55] ]Nyx Linden[ I want us to develop better tools for identifying inefficient content and providing better education around it
 [12:55] ]Mathieu Basiat[ but won't the actual mesh be translated via uploading anyway?
 [12:55] ]Cara Ametza[ yeah cause and effect really is a bad way to handle it, too many people would be unleashing disasters on the grid
 [12:55] ]Latif Khalifa[ upload fees and prim cost should be self correcting measure :)
 [12:55] ]Hermit Barber[ Nyx: A matter of resolution vs area. I like burned in textures on 1024m^3 prims and the limits of texture mapping become very apparent there.
 [12:55] ]Reed Steamroller[ thats the point of the group
 [12:55] ]lonetorus Habilis[ well yes, 9 if you include side 0 ;)
 [12:56] ]Qie Niangao[ will scripts be able to set an object to use a different mesh?
 [12:56] ]Nyx Linden[ upload costs are not decided yet.
 [12:56] ]Reed Steamroller[ and nyx was nice enough to join :D
 [12:56] ]Rex Cronon[ isn't mesh dev group only for those that took part in beta, under nda?
 [12:56] ]lonetorus Habilis[ reed, we spoke about mesh dev last night XD
 [12:56] ]Mathieu Basiat[ yesy, what new lsl calls?
 [12:56] ]Reed Steamroller[ ooooooooo
 [12:56] ]Reed Steamroller[ when and where?
 [12:56] ]Nyx Linden[ Hermit: texture repeats :)
 [12:56] ]Fleep Tuque[ Good question Qie
 [12:56] ]lonetorus Habilis[ regarding a seperate role for ppl who where in closed beta
 [12:56] ]lonetorus Habilis[ so ppl can find ppl who knows
 [12:56] ]Reed Steamroller[ oh yeah
 [12:56] ]Contagious Republic[ how about we have rendering costs of avatars listed in the new marketplace, along prim counts for rezzed stuff? that would help people think cut down is good
 [12:57] ]Reed Steamroller[ yeah, good idea
 [12:57] ]Reed Steamroller[ think it should be done
 [12:57] ]lonetorus Habilis[ thats what you said last night too ;)
 [12:57] ]Reed Steamroller[ i'll have to do it though
 [12:57] ]Reed Steamroller[ so don't know when that will happen lol
 [12:57] ]Hermit Barber[ Nyx: Not unless you are just mapping stupid cg textures onto landscapes :-P
 [12:57] ]Reed Steamroller[ seamless texture repeats will depend on how you layout your UVs
 [12:57] ]lonetorus Habilis[ just state it in the group info, that closed beta participants can ask for a role change
 [12:57] ]lonetorus Habilis[ so you wnt have to do all at once
 [12:57] ]Reed Steamroller[ laying out UV's will be another skill people are going to have to learn to make qulity stuff
 [12:58] ]Hermit Barber[ Throws a roll at the lone torus.
 [12:58] ]Nyx Linden[ any other questions?
 [12:58] Dahlia Trimble: BEAR
 [12:58] ]Hermit Barber[ When will your bear be out?
 [12:58] ]lonetorus Habilis[ hermit, what what
 [12:59] ]Mathieu Basiat[ any new lsl calls?
 [12:59] ]lonetorus Habilis[ nop
 [12:59] ]lonetorus Habilis[ mesh are compatible with the existing ones
 [12:59] ]Nyx Linden[ well if my bear is mesh-based, it will have to wait until sometime after open beta
 [12:59] ]Fleep Tuque[ I have to run, thanks Nyx and all
 [12:59] ]lonetorus Habilis[ (specifically texture assignment per side)
 [12:59] ]Reed Steamroller[ ya
 [12:59] ]Morgaine Dinova[ Nyx: you should work on the bear (seriously) just so that questions about the bear are history, as they waste time.
 [12:59] ]JB Hancroft[ tc Fleep
 [12:59] ]lonetorus Habilis[ etc
 [12:59] ]Reed Steamroller[ back to work before i get the whip again
 [12:59] ]Rex Cronon[ tc
 [12:59] ]Gianna Borgnine[ :)
 [12:59] ]Qie Niangao[ lone: how? based on what prim type? sculpts?
 [12:59] ]Reed Steamroller[ thanks nyx
 [12:59] ]Reed Steamroller[ you rock hardcore
 [12:59] ]Reed Steamroller[ everybody: JOIN MESH DEV
 [12:59] ]lonetorus Habilis[ yes
 [12:59] ]Reed Steamroller[ nyx is there
 [13:00] Dahlia Trimble: ty Nyx and Falcon :)
 [13:00] ]Reed Steamroller[ to be easily found
 [13:00] ]Reed Steamroller[ for harassment
 [13:00] ]Reed Steamroller[ :D
 [13:00] ]Latif Khalifa[ :P
 [13:00] ]lonetorus Habilis[ except they have 8 sides adressable (might be 9 as pointed out by hermit)
 [13:00] ]Qie Niangao[ lone: so I can change the mesh with llSetLinkPrimitiveParams, like I can swap a sculptmap
 [13:00] ]Imaze Rhiano[ anyone have chat log? my viewer crashed for sec....
 [13:00] ]lonetorus Habilis[ i did not test that
 [13:01] ]JB Hancroft[ (I'd like the chat log also - got get a little delayed)
 [13:01] ]lonetorus Habilis[ my lsl tests consisted of changeing material, colour and texture for mesh "sides"
 [13:01] ]Latif Khalifa[ i will test it, it should work by changing "scult map" and suppling mesh asset id
 [13:01] ]Jonathan Yap[ I would like a chat log too, due to getting the time wrong
 [13:01] ]Cummere Mayo[ i think nyx usually posts his hours
 [13:01] ]Qie Niangao[ right, okay, thanks lone
 [13:01] ]lonetorus Habilis[ but what latif says, should be possibel
 [13:01] ]Nyx Linden[ I don't usually post transcripts, but think I might need to make an exception this week
 [13:02] ]VoidTraveler Seetan[ si.
 [13:02] Latha Serevi: I can put one on the Groupies page in a minute.
 [13:02] ]Nyx Linden[ danke Latha
 [13:02] ]Qie Niangao[ Nyx, we really do need a *temporary* wiki page as central data collection for all the questions that these folks will be answering over and over again
 [13:02] ]Cummere Mayo[ please nyx. I have litterally four major content makers asking me for all the details
 [13:02] ]Morgaine Dinova[ Qie++
 [13:02] ]Bronson Blackadder[ sorry Imaze but its in 4 notecards
 [13:02] ]Imaze Rhiano[ thanks
 [13:02] ]Nyx Linden[ I'll be posting a transcript in the wiki
 [13:03] ]Latif Khalifa[ thanks nyx for your time
 [13:03] ]JB Hancroft[ thanks Nyx - awesome stuff
 [13:03] ]Qie Niangao[ (i guess they could just edit it over the top of Jeremy's deletion, now that I look at it. the page is still editable)
 [13:03] ]Contagious Republic[ thanks for the transcript nyx!
 [13:03] ]Qie Niangao[ thanks Nyx.
 [13:03] ]Rex Cronon[ a transcript doesn't make a good wiki article:(
 [13:03] ]Nyx Linden[ better than no transcript *shrug*
 [13:03] ]lonetorus Habilis[ rex, a good way to learn about mesh is by documenting it
 [13:03] ]Cummere Mayo[ no rex, but it IS a convient place to toss a transcript
 [13:03] ]lonetorus Habilis[ you will need to ask all the right questions
 [13:03] ]Contagious Republic[ make clean article start, but the transcript in talk, then
 [13:04] ]Gianna Borgnine[ many details listed here - http://changingworldsbuildingdreams.com/the-status-of-mesh-support-in-second-life
 [13:04] ]Qie Niangao[ actually, doc team has office hours right now... except I have to run to RL this time, so can't ask if Jeremy would mind
 [13:04] ]lonetorus Habilis[ i have asked jeremy in the past about this XD
 [13:04] ]Qie Niangao[ yeah, Gianna, that would be one good external link for that wiki page
 [13:04] ]Qie Niangao[ anyway, must run... have fun all!
 [13:04] ]Jonathan Yap[ Thank you Bronson
 [13:05] ]Reed Steamroller[ kk
 [13:05] ]Reed Steamroller[ gotta go
 [13:05] ]Reed Steamroller[ thanks nyx
 [13:05] ]JB Hancroft[ bye all :)
 [13:05] ]Rex Cronon[ tc
 [13:05] ]Nyx Linden[ thanks for coming everyone! I'll get to other topics next week
 [13:05] ]Morgaine Dinova[ Good chat Nyx (and departed Falcon), thanks.
 [13:05] ]lonetorus Habilis[ take care nyx :)

AW Groupies

2010-09-15T20:03:51Z

Latha Serevi: /* 2010 meetings */

=Purpose=
Serious technical discussion about Linden Lab's [[Architecture Working Group|Architecture Working Group (AWG)]]. "AW Groupies" is an unofficial, Resident-operated group, though most (all?) members also participate in the AWG.

Invite only (apply in-world to [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]), but the criterion is simple. Show up and contribute to the AWG, at [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]'s office hours, or on the Wiki, or on SL-Dev or in the [irc://irc.freenode.net/#pyogp irc channel] for the [[Pyogp/Client_Lib|Python test client]].

=Activities=
The [[AW_Groupies#Architecture_Working_Group_meetings|main AWG meeting]] is held annually or semi-annually.
We now [[AW_Groupies#In-World_Meetings|meet up to 8 times a week in-world]], counting AW Groupies meeting, Zero's office hours, Which's office hours, Enus's office hours, Whump's office hours and the [[Pyogp#In_World_Meetings|pygop daily meetings]].

Our main focus these days is on the [[Open Grid Protocol]], the [[Open_Grid_Public_Beta]] and the [[Pyogp|pyogp Python test harness]] for protocol testing.

Also members are quite active on the wiki and in the SLDEV mailing list.

A public SVN repository is open to all AW Groupies members here:
* http://openmv.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/archwg/

Contact anyone with root on openmv.org for an account if you are in the AW Groupies group in-world.

==Architecture Working Group meetings==
* [[AWG_Meeting_1|AWG I annual meeting transcript, participants' responses, etc]]
* [[AWG_Meeting_2|AWG II annual meeting transcript, video, participants' responses, etc]]

==In-World Meetings==
===AW Groupies meeting===
Weekly meeting times are:

* '''Tuesdays''' ------ 9:30 AM SLT (weekly AWG meeting)

1st - 3rd Tuesdays of the month at [http://slurl.com/secondlife/ThorneBridgeTown/156/129/25 Zha's IBM Island at ThorneBridgeTown]

4th Tuesday of the month at [http://www.osgrid.org/elgg/index.php OSGrid] which you can access by using the login URI http://osgrid.org:8002. See the [http://www.osgrid.org/elgg/index.php Main OSGrid page] for more info or read the [http://www.osgrid.org/docs/instructions.htm instructions to log in] for help. Look for the region "Dahlia AWG" for the meeting!

* ------------------ Noon SLT [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies#OpenSim__meeting| Open Sim Meeting]

Meetings are scheduled via the "[http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com SL AW Groupies" google calendar]" (though the above schedule is generally more accurate).

* [http://www.google.com/calendar/feeds/pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic XML]
* [http://www.google.com/calendar/ical/pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics ICal]
* Calendar ID: pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4@group.calendar.google.com
* [http://www.google.com/calendar/render?cid=pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com Add to your Google Calendar]

====Meeting Agendas====

Each meeting should have an agenda --- which will be distributed via
* google calendar entry
* in-world notice to the SL "AW Groupies" group
* the [[AW Groupies In-World Meeting Agenda]] wiki page

===OpenSim meeting===
* Tuesdays/Saturdays noon SLT, at Wright Plaza sim in OSGrid. [http://osgrid.org/index.php?page=home&btn=1 Registration Page]

Set [[Client_parameters|client command line options]] to:
:-loginuri http://osgrid.org:8002
:-loginpage http://osgrid.org/loginscreen.php
:-helperuri http://osgrid.org/

===Chat Logs===

Chat logs of the in-world meetings are published and accessible via the links below:

====2007 meetings====
:* September: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/2007-09-28 | 28]]
:* October: [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-01 | 1]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-05 | 5]] [[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2007_Oct_09|9 --Zero's office]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-16| 16]]
:* November: [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-06 | 6]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-13 | 13]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-20| 20]]
====2008 meetings====
:* January: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-01-08|08]]
:*February: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-02-19|19]]
:*April: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-08|08]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-22|22]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-29|29]]
:*May: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-05-20|20]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-05-27|27]]
:*June: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-03|03]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-10|10]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-17|17]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-24|24]]
:*July: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-01|01]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-08| 08]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-15|15]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-22|22]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-29|29]]
:*August: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-05|05]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-12|12]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-19|19]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-26|26]]
:* September [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-09|9]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-16|16]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-23|23]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-30|30]]
:* October [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-07|7]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-14|14]] [[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_October_14|14 --Zero's O.H.]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-28|28]]
:* November [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-11-11|11]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-11-18|18]]
:* December [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-09|9]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-16|16]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-23|23]]
====2009 meetings====
:*January [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-06|6]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-13|13]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-20|20]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-27|27]]
:*February [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-03|3]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-10|10]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-17|17]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-24|24]]
:*March [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-03-03|3]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-03-10|10]]
:*April [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-07|7]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-14|14]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-28|28]]
:*June [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-06-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-06-16|16]]
:*July [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-07-21|21]]
:*September [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-09-15|15]]
:*October [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-10-20|20]]
====2010 meetings====
:*March [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-03-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-03-09|9]]
:*April [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/JoeLindenTPVBrownbag-2010-04-13|13joe]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-04-20|20joshua]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/JoeLindenTPVBrownbag-2010-04-20|20joe]]
:*May [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-05-04|04proxies]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-05-19|18meadhbh]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-05-25|25]]
:*June [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-06-01|04mojito]]
:*September [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/Nyx-OH-Meshes-2010-09-15|15NyxMeshes]]
*
* [[MMOX#Chat_logs|MMOX chat logs]] -- in-world transcripts with non-SL/Opensim participants
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Grid_Interoperability_Chat_Logs All Grid Interoperability chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:AW_Groupies_Transcripts All AW Groupies chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Pyogp_Transcripts All Pyogp chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Open_Grid_Public_Beta_Transcripts All Open Grid Public Beta Transcripts]
*
* [[User:Zero_Linden#Transcripts_of_previous_office_hours|Zero Linden's Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Which_Linden|Which Linden's Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Enus_Linden| Enus Linden Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Whump_Linden| Whump Linden Office Hour Transcripts]]
*
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=chat+log OpenSim chat logs]
* [[Mono/2008-04-04 | mono beta meeting discussion of het-grid]]

(if you post chat logs, you might want to use the [[User:Dr_Scofield/logtransform|sllog2wiki perl script]] to turn them into a more readable wiki table format ready to copy & paste into the chat log page)

Chat logs of AWGroupies meetings should be summarized on the wiki.

==Viewpoint Advocacy Groups==

[[Viewpoint Advocacy Groups]] - groups to focus on specific requirements.
=== AWG-specific VAGs===

* [[Core Grid Services, Protocols, and Structures VAG]]
* [[Event Scalability VAG]]
* [[Geometry and Physics VAG]]
* [[Live Performances VAG]]
* [[Quality Assurance VAG]]
* [[Scalability VAG]]
=== AWG-related VAGs===
* [[Map_API_VAG]]
* [[Multi-Process Client VAG -- draft]]

=Work-In-Progress=

Work-in-progress wiki pages are architecture pages that are (as the name implies ;-)) work in progress. Once the group has reached consensus that a particular topic is "good-to-go" we'll graduate that page to the [[Architecture Working Group|main AWG page]].

==General Concerns==
* [[Scoping]]
* [[Architecture Working Group Glossary|Glossary]]
* [[Use Cases]]
===Open Grid Protocol (OGP)===
====Linden Pages====

====User Pages====

==Communications==
* [[Initial CAPS seed]]
* [[AWG initial flows]]
* [[AWG flows login]]

* [[Mudata]]
* [[Streamlet]]
===Documenting current protocols===
* [[Pyogp|Python test harness for OGP]]
** [[User:Which_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_May_22| Which Linden office hours 22 May 2008]]
====AWG and citizen pages====
* [[Current_login_protocols]]
* [[Current_Sim_Capabilities]]
* [[Example_protocol_code]]
* [[Hegemons_Login_Analysis#Very_simple_C.23__server]]
* [[User:Gareth_Ellison/Supergrid|Litesim grid interop]]
* [[EventQueueGet_CAP| Event Queue Get CAP]]

====Linden Lab pages====
* [[Service_Disruptions|"Satellite's Eye" view of the Second Life architecture from a service disruption POV]]
* [[Message_System_and_Capabilities]]
* [[Viewer_Authentication]]
* [[Viewer_Architecture]]
* [[Protocol]]
* [[LLSD]]
* [[Certified_HTTP_Escrow]]
* [[ImprovedInstantMessage]]
* [[Client_parameters|client command line parameters and stuff]]

====libsecondlife reference pages====
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Login Login page]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Protocol_%28network%29 Protocol page]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Category:Packets packets index]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Movement Movement]

====opensim reference pages====
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Grid_Architecture_Diagram opensim grid architecture diagram]
* [http://opensimulator.org/images/3/3c/OGS1Login_Sequence.jpg login diagram (same general sequence as current LL login)]

=== Future Protocols===
* [[Second_Life_Login_API_Strawman]]
:deprecated in favor of:
* [[Open Grid Protocol]]
** [[SLGOGP_Teleport_Strawman]]
*[[Architecture_Working_Group#Design_Documents | Ongoing next generation protocols documentation effort by Linden Lab]]

=== Possible future directions ===
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenID| OpenID A decentralized single sign-on system]
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yadis| Yardis A digital identity protocol]

==Asset Security and Trust==
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Dale_Innis/Asset_handling_in_OGP Asset Handling in OGP]
* [[Protecting content in an open grid]]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Infinity_Linden/OGP_Trust_Model OGP Trust Model]

==Scaling Issues==
* [[Brainstorming#ANALYSIS:_Region_Subdivision_as_a_scaling_method| Region Subdivision]]
* [[Brainstorming#ANALYSIS:_Scalability_through_reverse_proxies:_the_paravirtual_grid| Reverse Proxies]]
* [[AWG Scalability through per-resident subdivision of the Grid| Resident Subdivision]]
===Group IM===
* [[Message_Queue_Evaluation_Notes| Which Linden's message queue evaluation notes]]

==Other==
* [[Use_Cases#Extended_Capability_Clients|Extended Capability Clients]]

=Thinking-in-Progress=

* Have a look and contribute to the [[Brainstorming|brainstorming]] page.

* It's early days on the [[Multi-Process Client VAG -- draft]], but we would highly appreciate input to help with design choices and direction.
==Misc User Pages==
* Have an AWG idea? Don't know where in the wiki it should be indexed? Make sure that folks can find it by adding it to the [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:AW_Groupies_User_Pages AW_Groupies_User_Pages] Add: <nowiki>'[[Category:AW Groupies User Pages]]'</nowiki> to the end of your user page.

=External Resources=

Stuff of interest to or in connection with the [[AW Groupies]] or the [[Architecture Working Group]]:

* [[Developer_communication_tools|Developer Communication Tools (Linden Lab)]]
* [[SLDev|SLDev Main Page]]
* [[Open_Grid_Public_Beta]]
* [[Pyogp]] {Linden Labs/ AWG Python-based protocols testing library)
*
* [http://openmv.org/ OpenMetaverse Home]
**[http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Main_Page libsecondlife (libsl) homepage]
**[http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page opensim homepage]
**[http://openviewer.org openviewer homepage]
**[http://code.google.com/p/openmetaverse/wiki/SimianGrid SimianGrid]
*[http://www.osgrid.org OSGrid: open/non-profit OpenSim based grid]
* [http://www.realxtend.org/ realxtend homepage]
*
* [http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/22428.wss IBM PR re: AWG]

Latha's quick list of interop relevant VW sites, 3/30/2010
* http://tools.ietf.org/wg/vwrap/
* http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page
* http://openwonderland.org/
* http://www.realxtend.org/
* http://code.google.com/p/openmetaverse/wiki/SimianGrid
* http://www.opencobalt.org/
* http://www.solipsis.org/
* http://www.web3d.org/

==Second Life Viewers==
Various viewers compatible with Second Life.

::*Note: the "Derived 3rd-party clients" page includes a few non GPL viewers plus some hybrids. I'll try to come up with a better way to index this stuff. [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]
::*Yeah, that redirect of "Alternate_viewers" to "Downloads" is nuts, and the "Downloads" page itself seems to have to have a variety of things bundled together --- it needs splitting. But don't split it by license, that's precisely what I sought to eliminate in this section's re-org. It makes no sense to classify clients by license, since GPL'd clients don't necessarily have anything to do with Linden's code, just like BSD clients don't necessarily have anything to do with libomv. It does make sense to keep a list of Linden-derived clients though, since they're all more alike than not alike, and share both code and license encumbrance. [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]] 01:28, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

===Viewers based on the Linden Lab GPL code (C++)===

*[http://secondlife.com/support/downloads.php Main Second Life viewer/client]
:The main (official) Second Life viewer, produced by Linden Lab with the help of patches submitted by the community, and available for Linux, Mac and Windows.

*[[Snowglobe|Snowglobe]]

:A new version of the Second Life client in a public repository where Linden Lab permits direct committing from select community members alongside daily Linden work. There is also a new build system to keep this version continuously building when new submissions are received, with new builds available to everyone. This version will become available as an alternative Linden download alongside the main SL client, once it is sufficiently stable.

*[[Alternate_viewers|Derived 3rd-party clients]] (''currently links to a mixed "Downloads" page, to be fixed'')
:A large list of clients (not necessarily 3D) developed in the free and open-source community using GPL code from the above two official viewers.

===Viewers based on the libomv/libsl code (C#)===

* [http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/idealistviewer/ Idealist]
:IdealistViewer is a new cross-platform viewer based on the Irrlicht engine, PrimMesher, and LibOpenmetaverse. It can either use the Second Life protocols as provided by LibOpenmetaverse or the MXP protocol. Since it uses the Irrlicht engine it can simultaneously display prim/sculptie content and objects and animated meshes/avatars from a wide variety of sources such as Collada, .OBJ, DirectX, and Blitz3D files. It is not derived from the LL GPL viewer and is made available under BSD style licensing. It is designed to work with OpenSimulator but may also work with Second Life. It is written in the C# language.

* [http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/lookingglass/ LookingGlass]
:LookingGlass viewer is a modular viewer with pluggable communication and rendering engines. Initial communication plugin uses LibOpenMetaverse and the initial rendering plugin uses PrimMesher and Ogre. It is written in C# and BSD licensed. Home site at http://lookingglassviewer.org/ .

===Viewers based on other libraries (python, C, etc)===

* [[Pyogp]]
: Pyogp is an open source project between Linden Lab and the Architecture Working Group (AWG) to support testing the (Open Grid Protocol (OGP). Written in Python, Pyogp will consist initially of a client library and test functionality to enable testing OGP-enabled virtual worlds such as Second Life and compatible OpenSim implementations. These components will expand as the effort matures. Pyogp is released under the Apache v2 license.

==Mailing Lists==
* [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo List of Linden Lab mailing lists]
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensource-dev Opensource-Dev] Main mailing list for SL developers
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sldev SLDEV] Archived mailing list for SL developers
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gridnauts gridnauts] Mailing list for participants in Open Grid Public Beta
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pyogp PyOGP] Mailing List for Python-based client library and test harness for the Open Grid Protocols
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Resources#Mailing_Lists libsecondlife]
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page opensim]
* [http://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/openviewer-dev openviewer]
* [http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/vwrap/current/maillist.html VWRAP]

==IRC==
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#opensl
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#opensl-jira (real time updates of entries to jira.secondlife.com)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#opensim
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#opensim-dev
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#libomv
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#libomv-dev
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#openviewer
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#openviewer-dev
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#realxtend (Finnish language but can handle English if needed)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#pyogp (Python test harness/pyogp Second LIfe library irc)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#gridnauts (Open Grid Public Beta irc)

==Forums==
* [http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend| realXtend google forum]

==Capabilities==

* [http://www.cap-lore.com/CapTheory/index.html Capabilities theory and practice]
* [http://wiki.erights.org/wiki/Zooko%27s_triangle Zook's Triangle index] -- short list of interesting articles about naming and capabilties
* [http://www.cs.washington.edu/homes/levy/capabook/ Capability-based Systems by Henry Levy] --online copy of 1984 book on early implementations of capabilities systems
* [http://www.erights.org/ E language home] [https://www.cypherpunks.to/erights/ E language home mirror] [http://wiki.erights.org/ E wiki] --computer language dedicated to handling distributed trust issues
** [https://www.cypherpunks.to/erights/elib/capability/index.html Capability Computation]
** irc://irc.freenode.net/#erights
** [http://www.eros-os.org/mailman/listinfo/e-lang E language mailing list]
* [http://www.eros-os.org/mailman/listinfo/cap-talk mailing list for capability systems]
* [http://mscheffler.wordpress.com/2008/01/20/diploma/ blog and thesis on caps in virtual worlds Martin Scheffler]
* [http://homepage.mac.com/kpreid/elang/den.html Cap-based MUD by Kevin Reid] --written in E
* [http://www.fudco.com/chip/lessons.html discussion of ancient (Commodore 64!) video game that used capabilities]

==Misc==

* [http://blog.signpostmarv.name/2008/07/29/non-unique-region-names-within-the-confines-of-a-single-grid-yay-or-nay/ non-unique region names within the confines of a single grid, yay or nay ?]
* [http://blog.signpostmarv.name/2008/01/04/map-api-in-new-location/ discussion of new Map API and related issues]
* [http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source Open Source Portal] --index to all things Open Source for Linden Lab

=Members=

Founder [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]

[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]

[[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]

[[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]

[[User:Dr Scofield|Dr Scofield]]

[[User:Burhop Piccard|Burhop Piccard]]

[[User:Vicero Lambert|Vicero Lambert]]

[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]

[[User:Silicon Plunkett|Silicon Plunkett]]

[[User:Dale Innis|Dale Innis]]

[[Category:Architecture Working Group]]
[[Category:Grid_Interoperability]]
[[Category:AW Groupies]]
[[Category:MMOX]]

AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2010-06-01

2010-06-03T16:56:04Z

Latha Serevi:

Mojito Sorbet presented today. Slides are at
http://docs.google.com/View?id=dc75dtg5_6ffp3mhfs

{|
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|SHould I start now?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:33]
| colspan="2"|''Morgaine DinovaMorgaine Dinova goes for a coffee while the client listens''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I tend to give people about 5 minutes grace
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and let the Saijanai bot post spams
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hehe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Everyone still hung over from the weekend?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Tha isn't spam. Those are useful announcments of coming events. Unless he mentions Squeek.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:34]
| colspan="2"|''Zha EwryZha Ewry snorts''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I did have weekend with my cousins... lot's of drinking, swiming, swimming naked, swimming clothes on... and then some more drinking...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and of course I did have hung over - beer just doesn't like from me :(
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|This is my presentation on a framework for talking about VW protocols
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I did make some assumptions going in
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And that is that a desirable goal is supporting multiple independent Asset Stores
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|In this diagram here,
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The roundish elements represent services
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I am illustrating just how object management works, to keep it simple
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But the similar concepts can be used when analyzing money flows, etc
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Each part of the diagram uses a specific protocol to talk to the other ones
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And some pairs do not need to talk at all
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|We cna use this diagram to talk about what each service actually needs to communicxatwe to the others
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And form that we cna move to the technical implementation of those protocols
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|there is just one inventory?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|One Inventory per user account
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Assuming you want to keep all your stuff listed in one place
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I guess you could have more than one
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Oh I see - should have written the Inventory as a multi-circle
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|:P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yes, there can be multiple Inv services
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hmm...I can see inventory to assest sync issues problem if that is not addressed.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Here is a brief description of what each service does
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hmm. This is missing Inventoiry. I thought I put that in there
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|humm... assets are handling access control too?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I put Access COnytrol in the Asset Server because it is the only place that really knows what belong to who
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yay
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|finally, relogging directly in worked.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks to all who sent TPs
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Take the degenerate case - no ownership at all - everything s a freebie
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ahuva Heliosense|Ahuva Heliosense]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|sorry all - my machine is flipping out. i need to reboot. :(
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|In that case, the Invenotry is just a list of those things you use all the time
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So you are not confronted with a huge pile of things
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The Inventory holds URIs to Assets
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|These URIs get passed around
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If you make inventory a singleton, it stores up a million problems for subsequent expansion. That single "root" of the tree always gets implemented specially and non-portably in practice, so best just avoid it at design time. No single inventory, but a forest of them.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Each "serrvice" in my diagram is supposed to rbe actually multiple instances of that service, provided by different organizations
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|You "subscribe" to the ones you want to use
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|As a Creator, you can choose the Asset Service you trust, that provides the functions you need
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|A simple cheap Asset Service might not provide detailed time control of when things cna be rezzed or for how long
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|A fancy one can track every sale, on every grid, and not allow movement. Or blacklist some untrusted operators
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Let me show an example of this in use
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So I may "subscribe" to a different Asset service provider than my Money serv ice provider?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|greetings
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|sure
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|You can subscribe to multiples of each if yo like
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ahh ok
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Now, subscribeing to an asset service means yu can add things to it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|As a USER, you aytomatically use which ever asset services are needed, to fetch the viual representations for what the sim tells you is near
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So here is the seuqnce to rez somehting
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I operate my viewer and browse my inventory and pick something
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That gives me an Asset URI
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|would another scenario allow a sim to give an access key and uri to a viewer for multiple requests?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I tell the SIM I am in, where I want to put this
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Let me come back top that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The Sim needs to get the details from the Asset store
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The Asset URI telss it who to ask
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But the asset store needsa to know, on whose behalf this is being done
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So the viewer has to include a SIGNED version of this request
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So when the Sim passes the request to the asset store, Asset store knows who wants it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Sim adds in its own signed ID as well
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Tyhen the Asset store knows WHO wants it, WHERE.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And can apply whatever rules the creator has set
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The creator, or the owner?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Then it will pass the info needed by the sim back over the SA protocol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well, the Creator initially
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|You know that checkbox, whwere you can control what subsequent owners cna do?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Ah cool, not the creator. The owner, since the owner controls the asset service that yields the Yes/No policy
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well, no
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The CREATOR sets all that up initially
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|No dorgetting the MOD case, which creates a new copy
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If I make a thing, and put it in my asset store
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And sell 100 copies
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:54]
| colspan="2"|''Imaze Rhiano looks how Morgaine prepares her "information must be free attack" :P''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ALl I am doing is adding 100 User IDs to the access list
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Huh, very different handling for mod and no-mod?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If I choose to make it a Freebie, then I tell the Asset Store to not bother checking
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|In SL currently, MODding an object creates a new one
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|right
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|My concern is, nobody letting me change the color of my doodad.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But that is just to make certain chaching more efficient
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Imaze: You're entirely wrong. I've never made any such suggestion, I simply promote openness. Blame someone else for that line
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|each item in the asset store has an access list?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If you change a texture setting on your copy, you ARE modyfying it.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I am not intending here to address exactly how the Asset store represents things, or what all the attribtes are
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|sorry Bloookitty
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Rex, yes, it CAN. It is not REQUIRED to
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The sim will tell all the viewers who are "present" wghat the URI of the object is, so they can render it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|well... it is one way to implement assets service
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|perhaps Mojito's design will allow an openness scenario as well for creators/users who choose such
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The viewerrs then take that URI and request the visual info form the Asset store
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Regarding auth, I have in my head that signatures are too expensive to do for every interaction; am I out of date, or are we going to (in practice) have to provide a method that allows not signing every single packet?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Dahlia - that is the goal
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|How controlled you make asset control is enirely up to the Asset Service
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Mojito: can you clarify how the ownership gets transferred when items are sold, so that the original creator no longer has property for life and merely leases items>?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And you can have different such services, or a single one with multiple subscrioption types, etc
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|You mean for NoCopy items?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yep
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|In that case, the original Creator relinquishes his own Access Right to the object
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine - I think that it would be one possible to way implement assset service - when other would be "manufacturing" copies from objects
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Usually when you sell something in SL you sell a COPY
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That is done in my scheme by just adding another user tot eh ACL
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That's not always the case
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|we have our builders sell us originals to transfer ownership of items already rezzed and in place
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Once they Modify it (the wasy SL works) a new copy is created in the Asset Store
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But I am not trying to design the ultimake VWRAP system here
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|back
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|All I am intending is to present a framework where we can TALK about exactly these issues
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|nod
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And figure out how such decisions impact the protocol design
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Fleep, in that case, the object may only exist in the sim, not in the asset server (for the SL implementation)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ok int he case where it only exisgts in the sim but no one has taken copy to inventory?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|one interesting scenarion would be situtation where creator wants to upgrade her product with new version and provide new version for all her customers
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I prefer to think of Sims not having their own copies of the asset description
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Except as an intirim step in creation
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Mojito, I love that you're doing this, sorry you're getting zapped by the "third rail" of permissions right now. ;-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Realisticaly tho lots of things ONLY exist rezzed
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|people forget to take copies into inventory all the time
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Also consider that we want a framekwork that is flexible to implement current SL beahvior while not restricting everybody else to that model
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|if creator transfers ownership, he/she can no longer provide new version
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|However, I might want to do just that, when I sell my business to you.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I sell the entire bnusiness, including the control rights to the objects
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|A key part of all this is that The Inventory plays NO role in controlling ownership
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Cool!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It is really just a convenience so you can keep track of your stuff
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The final arbiter of ownership is the Asset Store
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|interesting
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And works for interop
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The mechanism of selling something is not shown in my diagram
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That involes interworking of the Money service, Asset store, Inventories, and multiple Viewer instances
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Are these slides availlable Mojito?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That starts to get messy
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|For this initial presnetation I wanted a simple problem to descrive
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hold on
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|afk
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(any volunteer to IM me the chat prior to 9:39? Overslept. thx.)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hopefully Sai is recording. I missed the preamble too
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I have the whole chat
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If there's room in the agenda, would like to talk about SLCC before we break fi that's ok
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(thanks Honour)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:10]
| colspan="2"|''metaPRESENTER: Thanks, You Will Receive your metaHUD shortly. Enjoy...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|oh ... honour was quick :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think I am done for today
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Darn, maybe more another time?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thank you Mojito!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks Mojito, this was good :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I did put a version of this on Google Docs
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Mojito: that was great, thanks. Have you written it up anywhere?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Understandable even by my pea brain :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I need to update that with these latest slides
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Honour McMillan|Honour McMillan]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thank you Mojito!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:12]
| colspan="2"|''Fleep Tuque APPLAUDS!!!''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I will need a copy of the transcript to put into the paper
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Excellent! Where on Google Docs, Mojito?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:12]
| colspan="2"|''RevMagdalen Kyrie applauds!''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ty Mojito :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Make sureSaij get the link
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Let me look it up
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:12]
| colspan="2"|''Morgaine Dinova cheers wildly''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|http://docs.google.com/View?id=dc75dtg5_6ffp3mhfs
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That is a web page of the results
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I just threw that together
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks Mojito :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So bookmark that. I will do a proper Doc later
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Awesome
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I have an SVG file of this diagram
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|thank you mojito!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Coolness, the IA link got removed, I like that diagram now :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|You should be able to take a copy of thie single slide here, for reference
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Is there something else on the agenda or can I jump in?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Leap in fleep
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|K thanks
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So many of you may know the Second Life Community Convention website went live with soft launch a few days ago
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Already we've gotten suggestions to add a "Technical & OpenSource" track
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|which I think the rest of the board is on-board with so to speak
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Just try to avoid refighting VWRAP battles
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|In order for that to happen, though, we have to be able to provide content for that, and someone to lead the track
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so I wanted to talk with you guys, see if you had ideas, if anyone is willing to lead a track, etc.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The convention is in Boston this year, August 13-15th
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and for what it's worth the tickets are selling way way faster than we expected
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|less than 10 of the early bird discount ones left, inf act, after only 4 days.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Mojito: Sadly, looks like the battles WILL need to be refought. A Linden told us recently that interop is no longer on the front burner at LL.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So, thoughts? Anyone intersted?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Linden is seeing its business plans crumble, so I can see why they would do that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|This is really more about OpenSim and such independent worlds
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|We do have to sort of toe the line a bit with regards to OpenSim, since our license agreement with Linden Lab specifies that this is a Second Life convention, not general VWs or what have you.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Without a shared Asset scheme, those small worlds will be pretty barren
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Fleep, with that restriction I suggest you not mention VWRAP at all.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Even though Linden Lab is participating in writing the protocol?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If you want to grow to handle VWs in general, you will have to change the name of the conference
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I don't want to get mired down in the politics, at the same time, the work you're doing is very very important and I think other SL peeps should and need to know about it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ARE they participating in helping write it? I have npot seen them do that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Open worlds won't be barren for long. It's closed worlds that accrete items only slowly within their walls, while open ones have nothing to hold back sharing and growing a huge pyramid.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|An SL User's Conference is not the right forum
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|An implementastion of the open scheme I describe here elimnihnates much of Linden's lock on the market
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Beyond the VWRAP or OpenSim, is there interest in other technical presentations and/or opensource technology that you think would be appropriate at SLCC?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|An SL users forum is very much the right forum in which to discuss how those SL users can interoperate with others.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|how are SIMs controlling what assets are allowed to use in the sim?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|You mean today?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(And yes, I tend to agree with Morgaine, as the leading vw platform, the SL users conference is perhaps one of the best venues to discuss it, that's where the most dedicated people to the metaverse are.) ;)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Today each sim instance (SL, or OpenSim) has its own asset DB
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So if I as a crator want my stuff (even freeies) available in 4 worlds, I have to log onto each world, upload my stuff, set up vendors, etc
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|er that was worded badly, some of the peopel most dedicated to seeing the metaverse happen are in fact in SL.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yes, but an SL User's Conference is not the place for that. You will get in trouble with LL
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|in model that you presented - can they for example limit rezzing of clothes/objects to some sets of asset services?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|sure
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well, the complexity of the Access Control Lists has to be worked out
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Some creators may not trust some Asset Service providers
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If you make freebies, it does not matter of course
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But if you try to keep tight control, you probably do not want external copies outside the asset service you started with
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Those who want tight control will have to work the hgardest
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If you can get someone to do the track, I think it should cheerfully include interop stuff as long as it's relevant to SL's future. Even as far as "what's this Opensim" presentations.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|for example - SIM owner wants that there is no nudity/ sex in sim (BOOOOORING) and then limits allowed assets services to group of services that she knows that are not hosting such material
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|OpenSim? what's that?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|some asset service providers might not trust some creators:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|laugh
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It is not relevant to SL's fuiture unless Joshua and Zero say that it is
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The mandatory car analogy: It's like the Mercedes Benz users group wanting to discuss how to make their fuel inlet compatible with the gas pumps on public roads :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think it can be done to satisfy the intent and the letter of the agreement and still provide constructive space to discuss how SL might interface with other worlds
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The question, rather, is anyone willing to lead the track and/or provide content. :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well, you can try
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Not me
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Mojito: this world doesn't belong to Joshua and Zero. It belongs to its residents, and LL are merely the world infrastructure provider.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|OK, well, no one has to take a public position for the moment, but if you might be interested, please do let me know. I expect we will need to have track leaders in place within the next week or two to get moving.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I do not think Linden Labs sees it that way
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thankfully the Second Life Community Convention is resident run.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|will the future be one where separate worlds interact? or will the worlds become basically like ISPs that sponsor your entry into a seamless network of sims?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm one of them, so. :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|fleep. why don't u contact the emerald devlopers
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|why, Rex?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|emerald is opens source
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|open*
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|When the core services like Assets, Money, IM, etc can be independent, the boundaries between worlds become quite fuzzy. This is goodness I think
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yeah, but they're SL centric, a bit on the irresponsible side, and mostly hackers.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Anyone can submit a proposal of course, Emerald or anyone else
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Mojito: since LL has stated point-blank hundreds of time that everything users make belongs to the users, whether current management "sees it that way" or not is largely immaterial.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hopefully the person(s) who step up to lead the track will be qualified to evaulate the proposals.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|how about other viewer creators. like latif, for example:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But, an Emerald topic is of course highly relevant. Just wouldn't expect to find a track leader there.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|just like I might get my browser from google, then use it to surf to any site, maybe I get my wallet and asset store and avatar from SL and then I surf to any sim, public or private, anywhere I have a link to
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif is in Denamrk. A little hard to travel to an RL conference.. :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|unless u ask him u never know:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Oh, which reminds me, should mention that track leaders receive complimentary registration of course. ;)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Could have a big projection screen...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But why Virtual World users need a RL conference in the first place befuddles me. :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Because nothing replaces real hugs. :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Not even that crazy hugging with straps gadget
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|laugh
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|awww :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|forgot what they called that prototype
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Does SLCC stream video out, for those of us who won't be heading to Boston?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yes, that's the plan, to stream as much of the content as possible this year
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|which hopefully will be eaiser now that we're not tied to QT
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|course that means all those screaming about security of IP peeps will have to turn on shared media to see it. ;)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Nah, theyu'll watch on the web and think that makes them safer.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|not really fleep. they can use their browsers:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|http://slconvention.org is the site, can submit a proposal or app to lead a track directly there.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|though at the moment Technology & OpenSource is not an option since we're not sure yet if there's enough demand to justify it.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Which is sort of why I'm here! :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(Or at least bringing it up)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:34]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry nods''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I hope there is enough demand, I think it's important to broaden this conversation.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|We should do a show of hands in group, or setup a surveymonkey or such to count noses
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Its soemwhat chicken and egg, of course
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|if you have it listed, people will be more likely to say yes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Not in the "too many cooks" sense, but certainly int erms of a broader base of stakeholders means better use cases
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|there is this site "freshmeat.net" that lists OS projects. it is possible that it also lists OS projects that have to do with sl
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|thanks Rex
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm guessing SLCC is all about in-world culture, and might not be fertile ground for this topic at all.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That was my thought
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Sheryl Mimulus|Sheryl Mimulus]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|sorry, I missed the presentation but I looked at the slides... shouldn't each sim have an "Inventory" of sorts?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Despite your thoughtful outreach, Fleep... ;-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That "have to do with SL" is completely the wrong choice of words. SL is just one world, despite being the largest in the playing field.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Sheryl, each sim needs to keep track of what is rezzed within it, but that is not a public interface
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|SLCC is somewhat about in world culture, but it's also a much broader conversation that you might thing
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|you're gathering a few hundred of the most engaged people, the conversation isn't all SL all the time, believe me.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Sheryl: no, a sim has nothing to do with inventory, at most it's a proxy for passing asset references.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|well. i spoke too soon. very few OS projects on that site:(
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|A sim keeps track of what is rezzed init, so it can restart after a crash.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|OS == Open Source, and virtually everything on Freshmeat is open source
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And, if there isn't enough interest for a separate track, certainly individual presentations about these topics would be more than welcome.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So that's my pitch, I guess. :) I hope you'll consider it. :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Fleep, I think you're right to focus on finding a track leader. the right person could make something interesting happen, if they can be found (which may not happen)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And a sim might keep a cache of the actual physical data it needs, just for performance
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Sheryl Mimulus|Sheryl Mimulus]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|well, to me an inventory is a datastore of asset references... a sim also has a list of such asset references. the only difference is that sim asset references can belong to multiple owners
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yes, that is correct
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well I for one think this convention sounds awesome!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And I am not saying you could not use some similar parts of the implemtnation
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|besides it's an excuse to go to Boston, which is awesome itself!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|there is also a linden whose job description is to interface with the OS crowd, i think
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Is Infinity gone?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I can't keep track these days
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Sheryl: having something in your inventory does not imply ownership in Mojito's scheme --- they're all just a bunch of references in inventory, no permission semantics. Usually the stuff in inventory will be yours, but if it's not then the access will simply fail when you try to use it.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That's how an asset service can control rezzing in one place and not in another.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|How many here is actually using V2?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I have to take off, thanks for giving some time in the agenda, if anyone has follow up questions etc, feel free to ping me. :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The Asset Service can refuse to honor a request form a sim based on any condition its implementors desire to put in
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|5
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|tc
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|See you Fleep
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|See you guys later and thanks again for good presentation Mojito. :) wave!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|4 Emerald
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And I dunno what Rex has. 1.23.5 I think
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The two Lindens doing open source these days are Merov, the snowglobe maintainer who we all love, and the new one who's Director of Open Source Somethingorother, who was he again?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|bye Fleep :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I heard that Emerald's viewer identification is not accurate
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And Morgaine is running Imprudence
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i have the latest 1.23 viewer.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I've not used V2 after the initial fortnight. The regressions will need to be removed (made optionsal) first for me to use it.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i should have said the last of its kind, not latest:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm on Kirsten's right now
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, Fleep, Sai, Dahlia and Rev are using V2 - according Emerald's viewer id
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Oho. Emerald misidentifies you as running Emerald
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Kirsten's was a good compromise on the UI
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I am using Emerald 1634. I have 2012 too
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|laugh wouldn't let me TP in won't let me TP out either
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:45]
| colspan="2"|''Fleep Tuque grumbles.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|LOL Fleep
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I was having trouble with TP here earlier as well
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|My Emerald doesn't think Rex is on Emerald.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Also texture upload
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Mind boggles how SL can be so bugridden after almost a decade
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|fleep finally got out:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But thinks Dahlia is on viewer 2.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|she did have 487 scripts....
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|these seats must have glue or them:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hehe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|on them*
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm on a V2 derivitive
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yes, now I see - it says Dahlia is on V2.0
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So Kirsten did not change the channel, or whatever it is Emerald looks at
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Sorta goofy that we're relying on the texture-layer hacks for all this.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|dunno, Im using a proxy too but it doesnt change anything
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So TPVs outnumber LL's in this meeting. No surprise for us lot though.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|What's more surprising to me is when I go to live music in SL, and find 50% of the audience, AND the performer, on Emerald.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Rex must do a lot of texting ;)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That matches about what I see. 50%
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|sorry. i don
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i don't understand what do u mean, dahlia?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|can u please explain
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I meant to type that in the groupies window
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|when I first came back to SL I used the LL standard viewer b/c I don't need special abilities, just trying to make a community in normal fashion. people quickly came forward to tell me that all the best and smartest people go on Emerald instead.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Argh, now *I* can't TP out
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the way you abbreviate so much ;)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so I think basically it's hot to be on emerald, lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|even though not everyone actually even knows everything it can do
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|is easy on the finbers:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol. fingers*
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|A Linden said recently something like "Management may now be realizing that our problems weren't caused just by bad viewer UI."
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Andrew's 0h is starting in 10 mins
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ooo... who did said that? :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|that reminds me. i have something "nice" to show at his OH:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'll IM you
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it seems there is a way to mess with whoever is trying to steal your prims
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I am heading to andrew's see you there! byyyyyyye...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ok
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|any brave souls here?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If you think someone can "steal your prim" then you have larger issues to worry about :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:David Levine|David Levine]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hello from the droid
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hehe. Good gadget?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hi droid user
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:David Levine|David Levine]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yep
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|is your droid viewr text only?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:56]
| colspan="2"|''Morgaine Dinova logs in to OSgrid ready for Opensim meeting''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:David Levine|David Levine]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|gets maps aatm
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:David Levine|David Levine]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|gets maps but mostly texht
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|btw why is zha so silent?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Cause I have RL people in my office
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ok. just makeing sure u didn't crash:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|making*
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Like any advanced human, Zha is delegating unimportant functions like world presence to automata.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:58]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry snorts''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Just busy doing three tings at once
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ok. i am goind to andrew's oh. tc everybody
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|do you have to be leet to go to that?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Cyu Rex
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|bye rex
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|bye all :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|see you :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm actually wondering how to present multi-presence in a single client. There are lots of alternatives, from simple split screen to making one primary and the others portals in-world in the first.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Oh, Imprudence is very popular in OSgrid now. In Lbsa Plaza, I'm seeing, 6 x Imprudence, 1 x Emerald, and 8 or so unknown, which are probably Hippo mostly.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Heading to Andrew's
|}

AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2010-06-01

2010-06-03T16:54:51Z

Latha Serevi: Created page with '{| |- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;" | [09:32] | style="white-space:nowrap;"|Mojito Sorbet: | style="white-space:normal;"|SHould I st...'

{|
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|SHould I start now?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:33]
| colspan="2"|''Morgaine DinovaMorgaine Dinova goes for a coffee while the client listens''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I tend to give people about 5 minutes grace
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and let the Saijanai bot post spams
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hehe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Everyone still hung over from the weekend?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Tha isn't spam. Those are useful announcments of coming events. Unless he mentions Squeek.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:34]
| colspan="2"|''Zha EwryZha Ewry snorts''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I did have weekend with my cousins... lot's of drinking, swiming, swimming naked, swimming clothes on... and then some more drinking...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and of course I did have hung over - beer just doesn't like from me :(
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|This is my presentation on a framework for talking about VW protocols
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I did make some assumptions going in
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And that is that a desirable goal is supporting multiple independent Asset Stores
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|In this diagram here,
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The roundish elements represent services
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I am illustrating just how object management works, to keep it simple
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But the similar concepts can be used when analyzing money flows, etc
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Each part of the diagram uses a specific protocol to talk to the other ones
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And some pairs do not need to talk at all
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|We cna use this diagram to talk about what each service actually needs to communicxatwe to the others
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And form that we cna move to the technical implementation of those protocols
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|there is just one inventory?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|One Inventory per user account
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Assuming you want to keep all your stuff listed in one place
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I guess you could have more than one
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Oh I see - should have written the Inventory as a multi-circle
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|:P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yes, there can be multiple Inv services
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hmm...I can see inventory to assest sync issues problem if that is not addressed.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Here is a brief description of what each service does
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hmm. This is missing Inventoiry. I thought I put that in there
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|humm... assets are handling access control too?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I put Access COnytrol in the Asset Server because it is the only place that really knows what belong to who
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yay
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|finally, relogging directly in worked.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks to all who sent TPs
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Take the degenerate case - no ownership at all - everything s a freebie
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ahuva Heliosense|Ahuva Heliosense]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|sorry all - my machine is flipping out. i need to reboot. :(
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|In that case, the Invenotry is just a list of those things you use all the time
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So you are not confronted with a huge pile of things
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The Inventory holds URIs to Assets
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|These URIs get passed around
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If you make inventory a singleton, it stores up a million problems for subsequent expansion. That single "root" of the tree always gets implemented specially and non-portably in practice, so best just avoid it at design time. No single inventory, but a forest of them.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Each "serrvice" in my diagram is supposed to rbe actually multiple instances of that service, provided by different organizations
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|You "subscribe" to the ones you want to use
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|As a Creator, you can choose the Asset Service you trust, that provides the functions you need
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|A simple cheap Asset Service might not provide detailed time control of when things cna be rezzed or for how long
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|A fancy one can track every sale, on every grid, and not allow movement. Or blacklist some untrusted operators
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Let me show an example of this in use
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So I may "subscribe" to a different Asset service provider than my Money serv ice provider?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|greetings
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|sure
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|You can subscribe to multiples of each if yo like
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ahh ok
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Now, subscribeing to an asset service means yu can add things to it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|As a USER, you aytomatically use which ever asset services are needed, to fetch the viual representations for what the sim tells you is near
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So here is the seuqnce to rez somehting
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I operate my viewer and browse my inventory and pick something
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That gives me an Asset URI
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|would another scenario allow a sim to give an access key and uri to a viewer for multiple requests?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I tell the SIM I am in, where I want to put this
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Let me come back top that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The Sim needs to get the details from the Asset store
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The Asset URI telss it who to ask
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But the asset store needsa to know, on whose behalf this is being done
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So the viewer has to include a SIGNED version of this request
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So when the Sim passes the request to the asset store, Asset store knows who wants it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Sim adds in its own signed ID as well
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Tyhen the Asset store knows WHO wants it, WHERE.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And can apply whatever rules the creator has set
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The creator, or the owner?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Then it will pass the info needed by the sim back over the SA protocol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well, the Creator initially
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|You know that checkbox, whwere you can control what subsequent owners cna do?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Ah cool, not the creator. The owner, since the owner controls the asset service that yields the Yes/No policy
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well, no
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The CREATOR sets all that up initially
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|No dorgetting the MOD case, which creates a new copy
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If I make a thing, and put it in my asset store
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And sell 100 copies
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:54]
| colspan="2"|''Imaze Rhiano looks how Morgaine prepares her "information must be free attack" :P''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ALl I am doing is adding 100 User IDs to the access list
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Huh, very different handling for mod and no-mod?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If I choose to make it a Freebie, then I tell the Asset Store to not bother checking
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|In SL currently, MODding an object creates a new one
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|right
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|My concern is, nobody letting me change the color of my doodad.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But that is just to make certain chaching more efficient
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Imaze: You're entirely wrong. I've never made any such suggestion, I simply promote openness. Blame someone else for that line
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|each item in the asset store has an access list?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If you change a texture setting on your copy, you ARE modyfying it.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I am not intending here to address exactly how the Asset store represents things, or what all the attribtes are
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|sorry Bloookitty
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Rex, yes, it CAN. It is not REQUIRED to
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The sim will tell all the viewers who are "present" wghat the URI of the object is, so they can render it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|well... it is one way to implement assets service
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|perhaps Mojito's design will allow an openness scenario as well for creators/users who choose such
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The viewerrs then take that URI and request the visual info form the Asset store
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Regarding auth, I have in my head that signatures are too expensive to do for every interaction; am I out of date, or are we going to (in practice) have to provide a method that allows not signing every single packet?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Dahlia - that is the goal
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|How controlled you make asset control is enirely up to the Asset Service
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Mojito: can you clarify how the ownership gets transferred when items are sold, so that the original creator no longer has property for life and merely leases items>?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And you can have different such services, or a single one with multiple subscrioption types, etc
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|You mean for NoCopy items?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yep
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|In that case, the original Creator relinquishes his own Access Right to the object
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine - I think that it would be one possible to way implement assset service - when other would be "manufacturing" copies from objects
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Usually when you sell something in SL you sell a COPY
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That is done in my scheme by just adding another user tot eh ACL
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That's not always the case
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|we have our builders sell us originals to transfer ownership of items already rezzed and in place
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Once they Modify it (the wasy SL works) a new copy is created in the Asset Store
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But I am not trying to design the ultimake VWRAP system here
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|back
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|All I am intending is to present a framework where we can TALK about exactly these issues
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|nod
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And figure out how such decisions impact the protocol design
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Fleep, in that case, the object may only exist in the sim, not in the asset server (for the SL implementation)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ok int he case where it only exisgts in the sim but no one has taken copy to inventory?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|one interesting scenarion would be situtation where creator wants to upgrade her product with new version and provide new version for all her customers
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I prefer to think of Sims not having their own copies of the asset description
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Except as an intirim step in creation
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Mojito, I love that you're doing this, sorry you're getting zapped by the "third rail" of permissions right now. ;-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Realisticaly tho lots of things ONLY exist rezzed
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|people forget to take copies into inventory all the time
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Also consider that we want a framekwork that is flexible to implement current SL beahvior while not restricting everybody else to that model
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|if creator transfers ownership, he/she can no longer provide new version
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|However, I might want to do just that, when I sell my business to you.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I sell the entire bnusiness, including the control rights to the objects
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|A key part of all this is that The Inventory plays NO role in controlling ownership
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Cool!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It is really just a convenience so you can keep track of your stuff
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The final arbiter of ownership is the Asset Store
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|interesting
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And works for interop
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The mechanism of selling something is not shown in my diagram
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That involes interworking of the Money service, Asset store, Inventories, and multiple Viewer instances
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Are these slides availlable Mojito?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That starts to get messy
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|For this initial presnetation I wanted a simple problem to descrive
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hold on
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|afk
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(any volunteer to IM me the chat prior to 9:39? Overslept. thx.)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hopefully Sai is recording. I missed the preamble too
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I have the whole chat
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If there's room in the agenda, would like to talk about SLCC before we break fi that's ok
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(thanks Honour)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:10]
| colspan="2"|''metaPRESENTER: Thanks, You Will Receive your metaHUD shortly. Enjoy...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|oh ... honour was quick :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think I am done for today
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Darn, maybe more another time?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thank you Mojito!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks Mojito, this was good :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I did put a version of this on Google Docs
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Mojito: that was great, thanks. Have you written it up anywhere?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Understandable even by my pea brain :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I need to update that with these latest slides
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Honour McMillan|Honour McMillan]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thank you Mojito!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:12]
| colspan="2"|''Fleep Tuque APPLAUDS!!!''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I will need a copy of the transcript to put into the paper
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Excellent! Where on Google Docs, Mojito?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:12]
| colspan="2"|''RevMagdalen Kyrie applauds!''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ty Mojito :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Make sureSaij get the link
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Let me look it up
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:12]
| colspan="2"|''Morgaine Dinova cheers wildly''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|http://docs.google.com/View?id=dc75dtg5_6ffp3mhfs
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That is a web page of the results
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I just threw that together
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks Mojito :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So bookmark that. I will do a proper Doc later
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Awesome
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I have an SVG file of this diagram
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|thank you mojito!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Coolness, the IA link got removed, I like that diagram now :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|You should be able to take a copy of thie single slide here, for reference
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Is there something else on the agenda or can I jump in?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Leap in fleep
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|K thanks
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So many of you may know the Second Life Community Convention website went live with soft launch a few days ago
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Already we've gotten suggestions to add a "Technical & OpenSource" track
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|which I think the rest of the board is on-board with so to speak
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Just try to avoid refighting VWRAP battles
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|In order for that to happen, though, we have to be able to provide content for that, and someone to lead the track
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so I wanted to talk with you guys, see if you had ideas, if anyone is willing to lead a track, etc.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The convention is in Boston this year, August 13-15th
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and for what it's worth the tickets are selling way way faster than we expected
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|less than 10 of the early bird discount ones left, inf act, after only 4 days.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Mojito: Sadly, looks like the battles WILL need to be refought. A Linden told us recently that interop is no longer on the front burner at LL.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So, thoughts? Anyone intersted?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Linden is seeing its business plans crumble, so I can see why they would do that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|This is really more about OpenSim and such independent worlds
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|We do have to sort of toe the line a bit with regards to OpenSim, since our license agreement with Linden Lab specifies that this is a Second Life convention, not general VWs or what have you.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Without a shared Asset scheme, those small worlds will be pretty barren
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Fleep, with that restriction I suggest you not mention VWRAP at all.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Even though Linden Lab is participating in writing the protocol?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If you want to grow to handle VWs in general, you will have to change the name of the conference
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I don't want to get mired down in the politics, at the same time, the work you're doing is very very important and I think other SL peeps should and need to know about it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ARE they participating in helping write it? I have npot seen them do that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Open worlds won't be barren for long. It's closed worlds that accrete items only slowly within their walls, while open ones have nothing to hold back sharing and growing a huge pyramid.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|An SL User's Conference is not the right forum
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|An implementastion of the open scheme I describe here elimnihnates much of Linden's lock on the market
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Beyond the VWRAP or OpenSim, is there interest in other technical presentations and/or opensource technology that you think would be appropriate at SLCC?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|An SL users forum is very much the right forum in which to discuss how those SL users can interoperate with others.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|how are SIMs controlling what assets are allowed to use in the sim?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|You mean today?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(And yes, I tend to agree with Morgaine, as the leading vw platform, the SL users conference is perhaps one of the best venues to discuss it, that's where the most dedicated people to the metaverse are.) ;)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Today each sim instance (SL, or OpenSim) has its own asset DB
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So if I as a crator want my stuff (even freeies) available in 4 worlds, I have to log onto each world, upload my stuff, set up vendors, etc
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|er that was worded badly, some of the peopel most dedicated to seeing the metaverse happen are in fact in SL.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yes, but an SL User's Conference is not the place for that. You will get in trouble with LL
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|in model that you presented - can they for example limit rezzing of clothes/objects to some sets of asset services?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|sure
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well, the complexity of the Access Control Lists has to be worked out
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Some creators may not trust some Asset Service providers
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If you make freebies, it does not matter of course
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But if you try to keep tight control, you probably do not want external copies outside the asset service you started with
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Those who want tight control will have to work the hgardest
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If you can get someone to do the track, I think it should cheerfully include interop stuff as long as it's relevant to SL's future. Even as far as "what's this Opensim" presentations.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|for example - SIM owner wants that there is no nudity/ sex in sim (BOOOOORING) and then limits allowed assets services to group of services that she knows that are not hosting such material
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|OpenSim? what's that?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|some asset service providers might not trust some creators:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|laugh
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It is not relevant to SL's fuiture unless Joshua and Zero say that it is
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The mandatory car analogy: It's like the Mercedes Benz users group wanting to discuss how to make their fuel inlet compatible with the gas pumps on public roads :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think it can be done to satisfy the intent and the letter of the agreement and still provide constructive space to discuss how SL might interface with other worlds
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The question, rather, is anyone willing to lead the track and/or provide content. :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well, you can try
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Not me
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Mojito: this world doesn't belong to Joshua and Zero. It belongs to its residents, and LL are merely the world infrastructure provider.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|OK, well, no one has to take a public position for the moment, but if you might be interested, please do let me know. I expect we will need to have track leaders in place within the next week or two to get moving.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I do not think Linden Labs sees it that way
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thankfully the Second Life Community Convention is resident run.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|will the future be one where separate worlds interact? or will the worlds become basically like ISPs that sponsor your entry into a seamless network of sims?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm one of them, so. :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|fleep. why don't u contact the emerald devlopers
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|why, Rex?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|emerald is opens source
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|open*
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|When the core services like Assets, Money, IM, etc can be independent, the boundaries between worlds become quite fuzzy. This is goodness I think
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yeah, but they're SL centric, a bit on the irresponsible side, and mostly hackers.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Anyone can submit a proposal of course, Emerald or anyone else
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Mojito: since LL has stated point-blank hundreds of time that everything users make belongs to the users, whether current management "sees it that way" or not is largely immaterial.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hopefully the person(s) who step up to lead the track will be qualified to evaulate the proposals.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|how about other viewer creators. like latif, for example:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But, an Emerald topic is of course highly relevant. Just wouldn't expect to find a track leader there.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|just like I might get my browser from google, then use it to surf to any site, maybe I get my wallet and asset store and avatar from SL and then I surf to any sim, public or private, anywhere I have a link to
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif is in Denamrk. A little hard to travel to an RL conference.. :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|unless u ask him u never know:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Oh, which reminds me, should mention that track leaders receive complimentary registration of course. ;)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Could have a big projection screen...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But why Virtual World users need a RL conference in the first place befuddles me. :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Because nothing replaces real hugs. :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Not even that crazy hugging with straps gadget
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|laugh
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|awww :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|forgot what they called that prototype
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Does SLCC stream video out, for those of us who won't be heading to Boston?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yes, that's the plan, to stream as much of the content as possible this year
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|which hopefully will be eaiser now that we're not tied to QT
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|course that means all those screaming about security of IP peeps will have to turn on shared media to see it. ;)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Nah, theyu'll watch on the web and think that makes them safer.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|not really fleep. they can use their browsers:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|http://slconvention.org is the site, can submit a proposal or app to lead a track directly there.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|though at the moment Technology & OpenSource is not an option since we're not sure yet if there's enough demand to justify it.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Which is sort of why I'm here! :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(Or at least bringing it up)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:34]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry nods''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I hope there is enough demand, I think it's important to broaden this conversation.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|We should do a show of hands in group, or setup a surveymonkey or such to count noses
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Its soemwhat chicken and egg, of course
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|if you have it listed, people will be more likely to say yes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Not in the "too many cooks" sense, but certainly int erms of a broader base of stakeholders means better use cases
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|there is this site "freshmeat.net" that lists OS projects. it is possible that it also lists OS projects that have to do with sl
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|thanks Rex
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm guessing SLCC is all about in-world culture, and might not be fertile ground for this topic at all.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That was my thought
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Sheryl Mimulus|Sheryl Mimulus]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|sorry, I missed the presentation but I looked at the slides... shouldn't each sim have an "Inventory" of sorts?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Despite your thoughtful outreach, Fleep... ;-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That "have to do with SL" is completely the wrong choice of words. SL is just one world, despite being the largest in the playing field.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Sheryl, each sim needs to keep track of what is rezzed within it, but that is not a public interface
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|SLCC is somewhat about in world culture, but it's also a much broader conversation that you might thing
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|you're gathering a few hundred of the most engaged people, the conversation isn't all SL all the time, believe me.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Sheryl: no, a sim has nothing to do with inventory, at most it's a proxy for passing asset references.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|well. i spoke too soon. very few OS projects on that site:(
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|A sim keeps track of what is rezzed init, so it can restart after a crash.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|OS == Open Source, and virtually everything on Freshmeat is open source
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And, if there isn't enough interest for a separate track, certainly individual presentations about these topics would be more than welcome.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So that's my pitch, I guess. :) I hope you'll consider it. :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Fleep, I think you're right to focus on finding a track leader. the right person could make something interesting happen, if they can be found (which may not happen)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And a sim might keep a cache of the actual physical data it needs, just for performance
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Sheryl Mimulus|Sheryl Mimulus]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|well, to me an inventory is a datastore of asset references... a sim also has a list of such asset references. the only difference is that sim asset references can belong to multiple owners
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yes, that is correct
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well I for one think this convention sounds awesome!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And I am not saying you could not use some similar parts of the implemtnation
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|besides it's an excuse to go to Boston, which is awesome itself!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|there is also a linden whose job description is to interface with the OS crowd, i think
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Is Infinity gone?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I can't keep track these days
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Sheryl: having something in your inventory does not imply ownership in Mojito's scheme --- they're all just a bunch of references in inventory, no permission semantics. Usually the stuff in inventory will be yours, but if it's not then the access will simply fail when you try to use it.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That's how an asset service can control rezzing in one place and not in another.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|How many here is actually using V2?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I have to take off, thanks for giving some time in the agenda, if anyone has follow up questions etc, feel free to ping me. :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The Asset Service can refuse to honor a request form a sim based on any condition its implementors desire to put in
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|5
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|tc
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|See you Fleep
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|See you guys later and thanks again for good presentation Mojito. :) wave!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|4 Emerald
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And I dunno what Rex has. 1.23.5 I think
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The two Lindens doing open source these days are Merov, the snowglobe maintainer who we all love, and the new one who's Director of Open Source Somethingorother, who was he again?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|bye Fleep :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I heard that Emerald's viewer identification is not accurate
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And Morgaine is running Imprudence
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i have the latest 1.23 viewer.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I've not used V2 after the initial fortnight. The regressions will need to be removed (made optionsal) first for me to use it.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i should have said the last of its kind, not latest:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm on Kirsten's right now
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, Fleep, Sai, Dahlia and Rev are using V2 - according Emerald's viewer id
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Oho. Emerald misidentifies you as running Emerald
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Kirsten's was a good compromise on the UI
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I am using Emerald 1634. I have 2012 too
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|laugh wouldn't let me TP in won't let me TP out either
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:45]
| colspan="2"|''Fleep Tuque grumbles.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|LOL Fleep
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I was having trouble with TP here earlier as well
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|My Emerald doesn't think Rex is on Emerald.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Also texture upload
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Mind boggles how SL can be so bugridden after almost a decade
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|fleep finally got out:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But thinks Dahlia is on viewer 2.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|she did have 487 scripts....
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|these seats must have glue or them:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hehe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|on them*
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm on a V2 derivitive
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yes, now I see - it says Dahlia is on V2.0
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So Kirsten did not change the channel, or whatever it is Emerald looks at
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Sorta goofy that we're relying on the texture-layer hacks for all this.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|dunno, Im using a proxy too but it doesnt change anything
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So TPVs outnumber LL's in this meeting. No surprise for us lot though.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|What's more surprising to me is when I go to live music in SL, and find 50% of the audience, AND the performer, on Emerald.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Rex must do a lot of texting ;)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That matches about what I see. 50%
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|sorry. i don
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i don't understand what do u mean, dahlia?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|can u please explain
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I meant to type that in the groupies window
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|when I first came back to SL I used the LL standard viewer b/c I don't need special abilities, just trying to make a community in normal fashion. people quickly came forward to tell me that all the best and smartest people go on Emerald instead.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Argh, now *I* can't TP out
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the way you abbreviate so much ;)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so I think basically it's hot to be on emerald, lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|even though not everyone actually even knows everything it can do
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|is easy on the finbers:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol. fingers*
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|A Linden said recently something like "Management may now be realizing that our problems weren't caused just by bad viewer UI."
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Andrew's 0h is starting in 10 mins
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ooo... who did said that? :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|that reminds me. i have something "nice" to show at his OH:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'll IM you
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it seems there is a way to mess with whoever is trying to steal your prims
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I am heading to andrew's see you there! byyyyyyye...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ok
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|any brave souls here?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If you think someone can "steal your prim" then you have larger issues to worry about :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:David Levine|David Levine]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hello from the droid
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hehe. Good gadget?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hi droid user
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:David Levine|David Levine]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yep
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|is your droid viewr text only?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:56]
| colspan="2"|''Morgaine Dinova logs in to OSgrid ready for Opensim meeting''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:David Levine|David Levine]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|gets maps aatm
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:David Levine|David Levine]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|gets maps but mostly texht
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|btw why is zha so silent?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Cause I have RL people in my office
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ok. just makeing sure u didn't crash:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|making*
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Like any advanced human, Zha is delegating unimportant functions like world presence to automata.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:58]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry snorts''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Just busy doing three tings at once
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ok. i am goind to andrew's oh. tc everybody
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|do you have to be leet to go to that?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Cyu Rex
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|bye rex
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|bye all :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|see you :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm actually wondering how to present multi-presence in a single client. There are lots of alternatives, from simple split screen to making one primary and the others portals in-world in the first.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Oh, Imprudence is very popular in OSgrid now. In Lbsa Plaza, I'm seeing, 6 x Imprudence, 1 x Emerald, and 8 or so unknown, which are probably Hippo mostly.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Heading to Andrew's
|}

AW Groupies

2010-06-03T16:43:07Z

Latha Serevi: /* 2010 meetings */

=Purpose=
Serious technical discussion about Linden Lab's [[Architecture Working Group|Architecture Working Group (AWG)]]. "AW Groupies" is an unofficial, Resident-operated group, though most (all?) members also participate in the AWG.

Invite only (apply in-world to [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]), but the criterion is simple. Show up and contribute to the AWG, at [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]'s office hours, or on the Wiki, or on SL-Dev or in the [irc://irc.freenode.net/#pyogp irc channel] for the [[Pyogp/Client_Lib|Python test client]].

=Activities=
The [[AW_Groupies#Architecture_Working_Group_meetings|main AWG meeting]] is held annually or semi-annually.
We now [[AW_Groupies#In-World_Meetings|meet up to 8 times a week in-world]], counting AW Groupies meeting, Zero's office hours, Which's office hours, Enus's office hours, Whump's office hours and the [[Pyogp#In_World_Meetings|pygop daily meetings]].

Our main focus these days is on the [[Open Grid Protocol]], the [[Open_Grid_Public_Beta]] and the [[Pyogp|pyogp Python test harness]] for protocol testing.

Also members are quite active on the wiki and in the SLDEV mailing list.

A public SVN repository is open to all AW Groupies members here:
* http://openmv.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/archwg/

Contact anyone with root on openmv.org for an account if you are in the AW Groupies group in-world.

==Architecture Working Group meetings==
* [[AWG_Meeting_1|AWG I annual meeting transcript, participants' responses, etc]]
* [[AWG_Meeting_2|AWG II annual meeting transcript, video, participants' responses, etc]]

==In-World Meetings==
===AW Groupies meeting===
Weekly meeting times are:
* '''Mondays''' -------

* '''Tuesdays''' ------ 9:30 AM SLT at [http://slurl.com/secondlife/ThorneBridgeTown/156/129/25 Zha's IBM Island at ThorneBridgeTown] (weekly AWG meeting)
* ------------------ FIRST TUESDAY of the month ONLY: 1 PM SLT at [http://slurl.com/secondlife/Grasmere/171/112/27 Zero Linden's office hours at Grasmere]
* ------------------ Noon SLT [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies#OpenSim__meeting| Open Sim Meeting]

* '''Wednesdays''' -- Suspended until further notice: 1:30 PM SLT @ [http://slurl.com/secondlife/ambleside/228/244/25/?title=Whump%20Linden%27s%20Office Whump Linden's Office Hours] (main meeting for public grid open beta)

* '''Thursdays''' ----- 11 AM SLT at [http://slurl.com/secondlife/Beaumont/149/44/24 Which Linden's office hours at Beaumont] (often AWG-related these days)
* '''Fridays''' --------- 1 PM SLT [http://slurl.com/secondlife/Longfellow/99/97/28 Enus Linden's Office Hours] (starring PyOGP and [[Pyogp#Pic_of_the_Moment|a cast of several bots]])
:
Meetings are scheduled via the "[http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com SL AW Groupies" google calendar]" (though the above schedule is generally more accurate).

* [http://www.google.com/calendar/feeds/pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic XML]
* [http://www.google.com/calendar/ical/pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics ICal]
* Calendar ID: pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4@group.calendar.google.com
* [http://www.google.com/calendar/render?cid=pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com Add to your Google Calendar]

====Meeting Agendas====

Each meeting should have an agenda --- which will be distributed via
* google calendar entry
* in-world notice to the SL "AW Groupies" group
* the [[AW Groupies In-World Meeting Agenda]] wiki page

===OpenSim meeting===
* Tuesdays/Saturdays noon SLT, at Wright Plaza sim in OSGrid. [http://osgrid.org/index.php?page=home&btn=1 Registration Page]

Set [[Client_parameters|client command line options]] to:
:-loginuri http://osgrid.org:8002
:-loginpage http://osgrid.org/loginscreen.php
:-helperuri http://osgrid.org/

===Chat Logs===

Chat logs of the in-world meetings are published and accessible via the links below:

====2007 meetings====
:* September: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/2007-09-28 | 28]]
:* October: [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-01 | 1]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-05 | 5]] [[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2007_Oct_09|9 --Zero's office]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-16| 16]]
:* November: [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-06 | 6]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-13 | 13]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-20| 20]]
====2008 meetings====
:* January: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-01-08|08]]
:*February: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-02-19|19]]
:*April: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-08|08]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-22|22]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-29|29]]
:*May: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-05-20|20]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-05-27|27]]
:*June: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-03|03]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-10|10]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-17|17]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-24|24]]
:*July: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-01|01]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-08| 08]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-15|15]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-22|22]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-29|29]]
:*August: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-05|05]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-12|12]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-19|19]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-26|26]]
:* September [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-09|9]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-16|16]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-23|23]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-30|30]]
:* October [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-07|7]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-14|14]] [[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_October_14|14 --Zero's O.H.]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-28|28]]
:* November [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-11-11|11]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-11-18|18]]
:* December [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-09|9]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-16|16]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-23|23]]
====2009 meetings====
:*January [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-06|6]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-13|13]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-20|20]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-27|27]]
:*February [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-03|3]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-10|10]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-17|17]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-24|24]]
:*March [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-03-03|3]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-03-10|10]]
:*April [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-07|7]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-14|14]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-28|28]]
:*June [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-06-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-06-16|16]]
:*July [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-07-21|21]]
:*September [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-09-15|15]]
:*October [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-10-20|20]]
====2010 meetings====
:*March [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-03-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-03-09|9]]
:*April [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/JoeLindenTPVBrownbag-2010-04-13|13joe]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-04-20|20joshua]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/JoeLindenTPVBrownbag-2010-04-20|20joe]]
:*May [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-05-04|04proxies]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-05-19|18meadhbh]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-05-25|25]]
:*June [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-06-01|04mojito]]
*
* [[MMOX#Chat_logs|MMOX chat logs]] -- in-world transcripts with non-SL/Opensim participants
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Grid_Interoperability_Chat_Logs All Grid Interoperability chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:AW_Groupies_Transcripts All AW Groupies chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Pyogp_Transcripts All Pyogp chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Open_Grid_Public_Beta_Transcripts All Open Grid Public Beta Transcripts]
*
* [[User:Zero_Linden#Transcripts_of_previous_office_hours|Zero Linden's Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Which_Linden|Which Linden's Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Enus_Linden| Enus Linden Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Whump_Linden| Whump Linden Office Hour Transcripts]]
*
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=chat+log OpenSim chat logs]
* [[Mono/2008-04-04 | mono beta meeting discussion of het-grid]]

(if you post chat logs, you might want to use the [[User:Dr_Scofield/logtransform|sllog2wiki perl script]] to turn them into a more readable wiki table format ready to copy & paste into the chat log page)

Chat logs of AWGroupies meetings should be summarized on the wiki.

==Viewpoint Advocacy Groups==

[[Viewpoint Advocacy Groups]] - groups to focus on specific requirements.
=== AWG-specific VAGs===

* [[Core Grid Services, Protocols, and Structures VAG]]
* [[Event Scalability VAG]]
* [[Geometry and Physics VAG]]
* [[Live Performances VAG]]
* [[Quality Assurance VAG]]
* [[Scalability VAG]]
=== AWG-related VAGs===
* [[Map_API_VAG]]
* [[Multi-Process Client VAG -- draft]]

=Work-In-Progress=

Work-in-progress wiki pages are architecture pages that are (as the name implies ;-)) work in progress. Once the group has reached consensus that a particular topic is "good-to-go" we'll graduate that page to the [[Architecture Working Group|main AWG page]].

==General Concerns==
* [[Scoping]]
* [[Architecture Working Group Glossary|Glossary]]
* [[Use Cases]]
===Open Grid Protocol (OGP)===
====Linden Pages====

====User Pages====

==Communications==
* [[Initial CAPS seed]]
* [[AWG initial flows]]
* [[AWG flows login]]

* [[Mudata]]
* [[Streamlet]]
===Documenting current protocols===
* [[Pyogp|Python test harness for OGP]]
** [[User:Which_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_May_22| Which Linden office hours 22 May 2008]]
====AWG and citizen pages====
* [[Current_login_protocols]]
* [[Current_Sim_Capabilities]]
* [[Example_protocol_code]]
* [[Hegemons_Login_Analysis#Very_simple_C.23__server]]
* [[User:Gareth_Ellison/Supergrid|Litesim grid interop]]
* [[EventQueueGet_CAP| Event Queue Get CAP]]

====Linden Lab pages====
* [[Service_Disruptions|"Satellite's Eye" view of the Second Life architecture from a service disruption POV]]
* [[Message_System_and_Capabilities]]
* [[Viewer_Authentication]]
* [[Viewer_Architecture]]
* [[Protocol]]
* [[LLSD]]
* [[Certified_HTTP_Escrow]]
* [[ImprovedInstantMessage]]
* [[Client_parameters|client command line parameters and stuff]]

====libsecondlife reference pages====
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Login Login page]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Protocol_%28network%29 Protocol page]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Category:Packets packets index]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Movement Movement]

====opensim reference pages====
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Grid_Architecture_Diagram opensim grid architecture diagram]
* [http://opensimulator.org/images/3/3c/OGS1Login_Sequence.jpg login diagram (same general sequence as current LL login)]

=== Future Protocols===
* [[Second_Life_Login_API_Strawman]]
:deprecated in favor of:
* [[Open Grid Protocol]]
** [[SLGOGP_Teleport_Strawman]]
*[[Architecture_Working_Group#Design_Documents | Ongoing next generation protocols documentation effort by Linden Lab]]

=== Possible future directions ===
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenID| OpenID A decentralized single sign-on system]
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yadis| Yardis A digital identity protocol]

==Asset Security and Trust==
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Dale_Innis/Asset_handling_in_OGP Asset Handling in OGP]
* [[Protecting content in an open grid]]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Infinity_Linden/OGP_Trust_Model OGP Trust Model]

==Scaling Issues==
* [[Brainstorming#ANALYSIS:_Region_Subdivision_as_a_scaling_method| Region Subdivision]]
* [[Brainstorming#ANALYSIS:_Scalability_through_reverse_proxies:_the_paravirtual_grid| Reverse Proxies]]
* [[AWG Scalability through per-resident subdivision of the Grid| Resident Subdivision]]
===Group IM===
* [[Message_Queue_Evaluation_Notes| Which Linden's message queue evaluation notes]]

==Other==
* [[Use_Cases#Extended_Capability_Clients|Extended Capability Clients]]

=Thinking-in-Progress=

* Have a look and contribute to the [[Brainstorming|brainstorming]] page.

* It's early days on the [[Multi-Process Client VAG -- draft]], but we would highly appreciate input to help with design choices and direction.
==Misc User Pages==
* Have an AWG idea? Don't know where in the wiki it should be indexed? Make sure that folks can find it by adding it to the [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:AW_Groupies_User_Pages AW_Groupies_User_Pages] Add: <nowiki>'[[Category:AW Groupies User Pages]]'</nowiki> to the end of your user page.

=External Resources=

Stuff of interest to or in connection with the [[AW Groupies]] or the [[Architecture Working Group]]:

* [[Developer_communication_tools|Developer Communication Tools (Linden Lab)]]
* [[SLDev|SLDev Main Page]]
* [[Open_Grid_Public_Beta]]
* [[Pyogp]] {Linden Labs/ AWG Python-based protocols testing library)
*
* [http://openmv.org/ OpenMetaverse Home]
**[http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Main_Page libsecondlife (libsl) homepage]
**[http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page opensim homepage]
**[http://openviewer.org openviewer homepage]
**[http://code.google.com/p/openmetaverse/wiki/SimianGrid SimianGrid]
*[http://www.osgrid.org OSGrid: open/non-profit OpenSim based grid]
* [http://www.realxtend.org/ realxtend homepage]
*
* [http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/22428.wss IBM PR re: AWG]

Latha's quick list of interop relevant VW sites, 3/30/2010
* http://tools.ietf.org/wg/vwrap/
* http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page
* http://openwonderland.org/
* http://www.realxtend.org/
* http://code.google.com/p/openmetaverse/wiki/SimianGrid
* http://www.opencobalt.org/
* http://www.solipsis.org/
* http://www.web3d.org/

==Second Life Viewers==
Various viewers compatible with Second Life.

::*Note: the "Derived 3rd-party clients" page includes a few non GPL viewers plus some hybrids. I'll try to come up with a better way to index this stuff. [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]
::*Yeah, that redirect of "Alternate_viewers" to "Downloads" is nuts, and the "Downloads" page itself seems to have to have a variety of things bundled together --- it needs splitting. But don't split it by license, that's precisely what I sought to eliminate in this section's re-org. It makes no sense to classify clients by license, since GPL'd clients don't necessarily have anything to do with Linden's code, just like BSD clients don't necessarily have anything to do with libomv. It does make sense to keep a list of Linden-derived clients though, since they're all more alike than not alike, and share both code and license encumbrance. [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]] 01:28, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

===Viewers based on the Linden Lab GPL code (C++)===

*[http://secondlife.com/support/downloads.php Main Second Life viewer/client]
:The main (official) Second Life viewer, produced by Linden Lab with the help of patches submitted by the community, and available for Linux, Mac and Windows.

*[[Snowglobe|Snowglobe]]

:A new version of the Second Life client in a public repository where Linden Lab permits direct committing from select community members alongside daily Linden work. There is also a new build system to keep this version continuously building when new submissions are received, with new builds available to everyone. This version will become available as an alternative Linden download alongside the main SL client, once it is sufficiently stable.

*[[Alternate_viewers|Derived 3rd-party clients]] (''currently links to a mixed "Downloads" page, to be fixed'')
:A large list of clients (not necessarily 3D) developed in the free and open-source community using GPL code from the above two official viewers.

===Viewers based on the libomv/libsl code (C#)===

* [http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/idealistviewer/ Idealist]
:IdealistViewer is a new cross-platform viewer based on the Irrlicht engine, PrimMesher, and LibOpenmetaverse. It can either use the Second Life protocols as provided by LibOpenmetaverse or the MXP protocol. Since it uses the Irrlicht engine it can simultaneously display prim/sculptie content and objects and animated meshes/avatars from a wide variety of sources such as Collada, .OBJ, DirectX, and Blitz3D files. It is not derived from the LL GPL viewer and is made available under BSD style licensing. It is designed to work with OpenSimulator but may also work with Second Life. It is written in the C# language.

* [http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/lookingglass/ LookingGlass]
:LookingGlass viewer is a modular viewer with pluggable communication and rendering engines. Initial communication plugin uses LibOpenMetaverse and the initial rendering plugin uses PrimMesher and Ogre. It is written in C# and BSD licensed. Home site at http://lookingglassviewer.org/ .

===Viewers based on other libraries (python, C, etc)===

* [[Pyogp]]
: Pyogp is an open source project between Linden Lab and the Architecture Working Group (AWG) to support testing the (Open Grid Protocol (OGP). Written in Python, Pyogp will consist initially of a client library and test functionality to enable testing OGP-enabled virtual worlds such as Second Life and compatible OpenSim implementations. These components will expand as the effort matures. Pyogp is released under the Apache v2 license.

==Mailing Lists==
* [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo List of Linden Lab mailing lists]
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sldev SLDEV] Main mailing list for SL developers
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gridnauts gridnauts] Mailing list for participants in Open Grid Public Beta
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pyogp PyOGP] Mailing List for Python-based client library and test harness for the Open Grid Protocols
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Resources#Mailing_Lists libsecondlife]
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page opensim]
* [http://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/openviewer-dev openviewer]
* [http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/vwrap/current/maillist.html VWRAP]

==IRC==
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#opensl
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#opensl-jira (real time updates of entries to jira.secondlife.com)
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#opensl-svn (updates of the the public SVN)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#opensim * irc://irc.freenode.net/#opensim-dev
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#libomv * irc://irc.efnet.net/#libomv-dev
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#openviewer * irc://irc.freenode.net/#openviewer-dev
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#realxtend (Finnish language but can handle English if needed)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#pyogp (Python test harness/pyogp Second LIfe library irc)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#gridnauts (Open Grid Public Beta irc)

==Forums==
* [http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend| realXtend google forum]

==Capabilities==

* [http://www.cap-lore.com/CapTheory/index.html Capabilities theory and practice]
* [http://wiki.erights.org/wiki/Zooko%27s_triangle Zook's Triangle index] -- short list of interesting articles about naming and capabilties
* [http://www.cs.washington.edu/homes/levy/capabook/ Capability-based Systems by Henry Levy] --online copy of 1984 book on early implementations of capabilities systems
* [http://www.erights.org/ E language home] [https://www.cypherpunks.to/erights/ E language home mirror] [http://wiki.erights.org/ E wiki] --computer language dedicated to handling distributed trust issues
** [https://www.cypherpunks.to/erights/elib/capability/index.html Capability Computation]
** irc://irc.freenode.net/#erights
** [http://www.eros-os.org/mailman/listinfo/e-lang E language mailing list]
* [http://www.eros-os.org/mailman/listinfo/cap-talk mailing list for capability systems]
* [http://mscheffler.wordpress.com/2008/01/20/diploma/ blog and thesis on caps in virtual worlds Martin Scheffler]
* [http://homepage.mac.com/kpreid/elang/den.html Cap-based MUD by Kevin Reid] --written in E
* [http://www.fudco.com/chip/lessons.html discussion of ancient (Commodore 64!) video game that used capabilities]

==Misc==

* [http://blog.signpostmarv.name/2008/07/29/non-unique-region-names-within-the-confines-of-a-single-grid-yay-or-nay/ non-unique region names within the confines of a single grid, yay or nay ?]
* [http://blog.signpostmarv.name/2008/01/04/map-api-in-new-location/ discussion of new Map API and related issues]
* [http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source Open Source Portal] --index to all things Open Source for Linden Lab

=Members=

Founder [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]

[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]

[[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]

[[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]

[[User:Dr Scofield|Dr Scofield]]

[[User:Burhop Piccard|Burhop Piccard]]

[[User:Vicero Lambert|Vicero Lambert]]

[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]

[[User:Silicon Plunkett|Silicon Plunkett]]

[[User:Dale Innis|Dale Innis]]

[[Category:Architecture Working Group]]
[[Category:Grid_Interoperability]]
[[Category:AW Groupies]]
[[Category:MMOX]]

AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2010-05-25

2010-05-25T18:21:31Z

Latha Serevi: Created page with '{| |- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;" | [9:26] | style="white-space:nowrap;"|Zha Ewry: | style="white-space:normal;"|a) Alice is a symbold ...'

{|
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|a) Alice is a symbold of Lenninist Domination of Mankind over nature b) The yellow Toucan. c) Only if the right angle is purple
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:27]
| colspan="2"|''Honour McMillan is lost already.............''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Coming in a few minutes: the weekly meeting of http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:27]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry takes very strange tests, is must be admitted but those are my answeers''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:27]
| colspan="2"|''Hermit: Failing ''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|People are welcome to propose questoins for which they make sense.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hi *
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:alan Passerine|alan Passerine]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hi rex
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hi alan
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kitto Flora|Kitto Flora]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hello, which AWG is this?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Honour McMillan|Honour McMillan]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|/a) What is Prok's main thesis. b) Which tv spokesperson will be the first in line anywhere. c) How do you know your build is borked.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|AWG v5.2
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|:D
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|how many r there?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:30]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry hans Hounur a small gold star sticker''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:30]
| colspan="2"|''Honour McMillan blushes''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Kitto: Architecture Working Group
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:30]
| colspan="2"|''Hermit: pFokofsky doesn't have a thesis, she has spaghetti with bile sauce that would make these scrambled suggestions look rational and succulent.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Kitto: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kitto Flora|Kitto Flora]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|TY NaoWut
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:31]
| colspan="2"|''Morgaine Dinova is Offline''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:33]
| colspan="2"|''Morgaine Dinova is Online''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:33]
| colspan="2"|''Tiny Blue Kitty Head: All Go''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:33]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry counts feet and (in the cases of four legged critters front legs), divieds by two two and concludes we're getting close to a reasonab,e number of folks''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|14
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Welcome to our weekly mayhem. Give people a minute or two to finish showeing up and making random clev er comments
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hi :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|There will be jitter on the bottom digit, as my ISP is experimenting with increasing availability using the LL model.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I only have a small topic
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:35]
| colspan="2"|''Gazanfer Jehangir is Offline''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Bit offollow up from Meadhbh's discussion last week on future proofing
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Every time I read that IO think it says "future spoofing"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And I'm also interested in a hmm. Show of limbs (Hands is so antropromprohpic)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|on ideas about where the line between interop and extensabiilyt is
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|LOL
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|IN order to interop with a new VW, extensibility may be required
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|In particular, given Josh's forumulation is
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Absolutely Mojitoa
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and the related questoin is
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|How might one think about Interop and bridged, rather than shared client experiences
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and.. possibly, portals/views
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Might be an idea to discuss where the line between interop and lip service is too. Lip service is certainly getting a lot of support.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lso, an extensible protocol allows you to ignore things you do not understand, without having to know how to parse them just to skip over them
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"given Josh's formulation is" ?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|oh, sorry lost a word
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|or phrase, actualyl
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Josh' formulatoin is drawing a line which says "Lets pull back a bit on a bunch of the interop bits, and make them extensability bits)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ie. focus no the minimal spannign set for region display and avatar inetractoin, and let the extenion model handle all the
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|No he's not
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I like that formulation
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Prometheus Silverweb|Prometheus Silverweb]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|OMG
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joshua merely put various things up for discussion, Zha. Unless you know differently.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well, except that putting all the extensions into HTML may not be sufficiant
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|very non shared imersive stuff like managing land groupd
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The base protocol itself has to be extensible
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Granted, Morgaine
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|BTW, last week Josh cleared up that (a) when a feature is "out but we know what it's called", we leave a space for a URI and a content-type; and (b) if it's a totally unknown feature, we use Zha's magic content-dicsovery capability to help the participants find each other.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But.. clearly, you don't put in that much effort without some though of "Hey, this is a way forward"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|big dragon. could u morph 2 something smaller?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yes, thing that do not have to do with immersion in the simulated state can be pulled form the main protocol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Big dragon, can you please stay just as you are? ;-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Wow. Not only is Neb HUGE
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Neb is also probably not inside the chat circle
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Nebadon Izumi|Nebadon Izumi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i am
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Nebadon Izumi|Nebadon Izumi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hehe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha: I think you may be right, but I didn't want to start the conspiracy theorizing myself. So by how much do you think that LL is wishdrawing from interop?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:42]
| colspan="2"|''Saijanai Kuhn shouts: hout Neb can you hear us?''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Nebadon Izumi|Nebadon Izumi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i can i dont think you need to shout
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Whether 3D creation is "in world" or not, would seem to be an implementation choice per-world
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Its Rev and Honour and possibly Kitto I worry about
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:42]
| colspan="2"|''NaoWut Digfoot nods to mojito. pros and cons with both methods''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Honour McMillan|Honour McMillan]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Being in Nebadon's chat range
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|A good example of an optional part of a protocol.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Honour McMillan|Honour McMillan]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I can see the chat
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think Neb's "head" is about 5 meteres outside the circle
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Can you her Nebadon?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Honour McMillan|Honour McMillan]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but I'll move to hear Neb's
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Nebadon Izumi|Nebadon Izumi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Nebadon Izumi|Nebadon Izumi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think i can hear everyone
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Luckily Neb listens with his navel.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If you are not inside the circle, you will not hear chat form [people on the other side of it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Nebadon Izumi|Nebadon Izumi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hehe ya my center should be my actual body
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Nebadon Izumi|Nebadon Izumi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|not my head
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Its roughlu where the client puts your tag
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|can change it to camera view I think (might be video only of course)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|We need to decouple the microphone point just like the camera point is already decoupled.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Nebadon Izumi|Nebadon Izumi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hehe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:January Lightfoot|January Lightfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|/hihi
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|/mem moves to give Neb some space
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|microphone point is decoupled, only the viewer forces it to a specific location
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I believe microphone is tied to camera
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:45]
| colspan="2"|''Agent Heliosense is Online''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That is Awesome, Neb
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:45]
| colspan="2"|''RevMagdalen Kyrie runs away from dragon''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:45]
| colspan="2"|''Honour McMillan fangurls dragon''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Nebadon, please turn around
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|really fantastic av ;-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:January Lightfoot|January Lightfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|/yep
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Nebadon Izumi|Nebadon Izumi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|turn around?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:45]
| colspan="2"|''Saijanai Kuhn wantsto see mesh-based avis''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Not awesome when one had one's camera in the space now occupied by Neb. :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:45]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry pauses to take a shot or thee''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Pick up of typing noise follows camera, but chat does not
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Nebadon Izumi|Nebadon Izumi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ok well since im just disrupting im gonna bail later guys
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|OK onward
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|please not, neb well wanted here
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|you need a partial invis option
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|just your smile
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yes Zha?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I don't have a clue about where Linden actually eants to go with Josh's formulation
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That said?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think its a very grounding one
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Isn't Joshua in charge of that effort?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:47]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry shrugs a little''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|what formulation?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The offload-most-things-to-the -web
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Roughlu, that much of the non sim specific stuff
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha: Joshua is a straight-up guy. I don't know if LL is pulling back on interop, but I don't think it matters --- Joshua is in VWRAP as an individual.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|canb e pushed to "web/API" extension
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and kept off the table for pure VWRAP
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|/
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:48]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry nods at Morgaine''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Josh seems very standup, and sane
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|There is no "pure VWRAP". VWRAP is whatever the VWRAP WG agrees it is.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But.. Unless I see Joe Miller, or on of his peers say 'Yes, that's what Linden" wants to do
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think Josh is expressing a good, sane technical judgement, not speaking abotu Linden's plans
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|One VW moved all of shopping to a web interface, to eliominate inworld vendors. Mopstly for lag reduction.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And.. Of course, Morgaine, that's basic
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That said, I think the formulatoin is very sound for VWRAP in geenral
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|with
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the one huge gothca everyone noticed
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|which is that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|while allowing web/html as a way to avoid API is clever
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|heck the lag in the market on Luclin was part of its charm. That and pushing obnoxious vendors to the arena and killing them
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it also can leave one in places where one might HAVE to screen scrap HTML
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|what sai?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|which is satanic evil
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Currently I see more of a problem with Hurli than with Josh. Josh is discussing things a la IETF. Hurli is just doing what he wants, in total silence on the VWRAP mailing list, and is claiming that the result is "VWRAP". If you're looking for problems for the IETF group, there's one.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol if by "clever" you mean cripple all but human with two eyes watching the screen
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think he was talking about using a web interface fo rthings. Not necessarily human-readable
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|http doesn't neccesarily require screen scraping
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, I saw Josh address the screen-scrape issue by being very clear that we want to have something like a content-type so that interacting entities can agree on a non-human-readable form....
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I've told Hurli this directly. He said he would be more open on the list. He hasn't been.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Mojito, no, he's specifically talking about sending html representation
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|html on the other hand...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|morg: not a major issue. no input, no control.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Right, content is a way to allow multiple APIs to be exposed, as it were
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The concern, well posed, I think, and Josh did deal with it in the whole
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|A very succesfull and widely used design will become the standard,m regardless of what IETF decides, if they are too slow about it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|is "Don't just expose a text/html" media type as *it*
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Wut: not so, it's de facto control.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha: text/xml, surely, would be saner?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And..the .. issue, (Not I think inherently a problem, but an issue) is that the cute trick of
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|pushing just html, lets one avoid the discussion of the API
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, it does not make sense to yank it ouf of vwrap then, if it's not text/html
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|why not let everybody do their thing and allow for "natural" selection:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|as soonn as you allow BOTH a web control and an API
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"Just HTML" suddenly becomes a lot harder, once you consider internationalization and accessibility
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|right, you start saying "hmm. Maybe it needs to be somewhere"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think we'd benefit if there were a speaker-to-Hurli who keeps a close eye on SimianGrid and talks about it with the rest of us.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Now.. Thus, my comment of "pure"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|One way of dealnig with this, which is very sane is to say
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"here is the core"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|an for each thing like "say, managing land" we do an informatoinal RFC
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|describing the API as that emerges
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha: that's the road to nil interop.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|..and expose a CAP for it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well, yes and no Morgaine
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:55]
| colspan="2"|''Saijanai Kuhn addresses IRC participants. Can you hear us?''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and you end up with a mess like ws-security soap thingy
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But manageing land may be something that some VW's do not have at all. Or do differently. It would be a mess to put that in the main protocol.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yes, in the sense that you may end p with very little ocnsensus on the optionality thing
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:coyled: SL-Saijanai|Kuhn|coyled: SL-Saijanai|Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Now, the EFFECTS of land management dso have to be in the protocol. "You can't go there"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but, no, in the sense that its very much defacto
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:January Lightfoot|January Lightfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|/args need to run,,, work is calling keep it up!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|There won't be any interiop at all if each world defines its own informational RFCs. That's what LL wanted originally of course, as Infinity explained very directly.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|tc
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|what's the irc channel?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So, Mojito has a very clear comment, and I agree
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|also, generally, from an implementors standpoint, it is much more pleasant to implement a core standard and build up extensions, rather than pour over a monolithic document
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the effects clearly need to be in there
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and also any visual cues
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:56]
| colspan="2"|''Jeddin Laval is Offline''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Parcel boundaries, for example
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:coyled: SL-Dahlia|Trimble|coyled: SL-Dahlia|Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|#groupies on irc.quickfox.net
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|if you want to be able to draw them
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|you can't not describe them in core
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If my VW has a land property called "tangle factor", I do not want to force everyone else to support it.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Right, and in fact, you can't.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Nobody can force anyone to support a feature
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|As long as the EFFECT of "tangle factor" can be carried over the core protocol.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Again, yes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but my viewer can look at your VW's feature list, and i can implement tangle factor support into my viewer
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm interested in Mojito's direction, and particularly the "visible effects" part of an unsupported thingy.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think this comes back to what we mean by interop. If a common client can't be used with elements from more than one world, you have no interop at all.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|u can force
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Take red walls for example
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Not sure, Morgaine. We have how many Web Clients?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|if they want 2 connect 2 your grid...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The way of setting parcel access rightrs might be in the API. But ther error message when you try to walk on my grass is in the core protocol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|+1 mojito
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, they all more or less produce the same result, the web clients
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha: all web "clients" support a common data model, with very few exceptions.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Right, but many many people with many many perfectly workable clients can't see about 50% of the content ont he web
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and we don't cry too much
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|there's really little that SL content has in common with any other 3D platform other than OpenSim
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|My VW might be able to exclude avatars with red hair, or under a certain height. Only my management API knows that stuff
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|also, to state the bleeding obvious, parcels should probably be defined as arbitrary volumes rather than be tied to a 2d grid.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But if you are a short red-haired peron and you try to enter my land, you hit a wall. Doesn't matter at that point exactly WHY the wall appeared
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:59]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry pouts at the idea of exclusing short aves''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That was just an example. :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|n-dimensional regions ftw
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yes, about using volumes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha: are you talking about text clients seeing 50%? Because all graphic web browsers see 99.9% of the same thing.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i'm happy with 3, saij, but.. :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I will exlcude short people only alternate Tuesdays. Is that a 4th dimension?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|No, I'm thinknig that iphones and ipads don't see flash, and while people are yowling around the edges, we don't say "The html./http + Mime type extenede cocntent" model is broken.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hehe, possibly. though that could probably do better with a different property for temporal stuff :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Android is on more phones than there are iPhones
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|now claiming flash is 50% of the web is a bit bold :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:01]
| colspan="2"|''Oliver Szondi is Online''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Googler has some new video thing they are pushing
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If graphic 2D browsers didn't all see pretty much the exact same thing, the web would be a very different place to what it is today. But because there is a common protocol and a common data model, everyone sees the same thing, to a high degree of exactness.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Not counting IE
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It isn't, but Flash, and the random content which requires a specific plugin of tyype X" is probably closer to 50% than further from
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|In some sense, Morgaine, that;s exactly my point
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|We need to be able to see the core all the time
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Google wants their new web video system to be built into browsers, not a plugin
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|absolutely not true, > 90% of the content requires no plugins
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well flash is exactly the kind of thing we're trying to avoid --- a de facto standard that in the end everyone suffered from.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the questoin is where the core ends and extension begins
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and yes, they say it's broken, hence the push for html5 to kill off the remaining 10%
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:02]
| colspan="2"|''Goldie Katsu is Online''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|3D content is different tho, it's usually designed around a specific display technology
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:03]
| colspan="2"|''Saijanai Kuhn cringes at more non-plugin standards.. Can we say security flaw?''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"VP8"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Dahila+
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think we shouldn't fear that "VWRAP Core" will define what's in the "common-case interop viewer". It'll be much much smaller.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That will be hard to acheive for a while, until the people who write video device drivers can be convinced to get on the ball
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and often designed for a specific purpose
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well, my take is that the web's style, is going to be similar here
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Which is the core stuff, gets into everything, and then things like "oh, look, I can do point clouds"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|aren't going to show up in the mainline at firsttt
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|What we'd like is for "VWRAP Core + A, B, C" will be supported by the common-case viewer, not "VWRAP Core or alternatively Magic-new-protocol"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Sai: the problem with Flash (in this INTEROP context only, ignoring other issues) is that it was a proprietary implementation with a spec that only one company controlled. It's not an inherent plugin problem at all.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and at some point, peopel will go "ok, that one is really de-facto rerequired"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|gigavoxels are fun, though.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|web style is that all major web browser all have nearly the same capabilities and display the content in almost indistingushable way
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Just like Javascript and AJAX changed how the web looks
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|+2 Latha
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|if you push inventory to html and only linden client can really manage linden inventory, that's a mega-fail
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and the trick Mojito, is alway "at any time"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha: that's fine as long as "core stuff" contains everything that's needed for basic VWs.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Looking at what the defacto "must have to be good web browser" feature set over time is illuminating
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I would say "Inventory management" is a separate service, ina fully open world
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morg: how basic is basic?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(and then how long its taken for those de-facto" bits to become de-jrue
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And, I agree, Inventory, has to be core
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Wut: the core has to provide a way for a common client to work with multiple worlds.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Controlling land parcels? I'm pretty sure not
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And.. that's also where what Josh is saying makes a lot of sense
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|With 3rd pary asset stores, the idea of "inventory" (how I manage 'my stuff') clearly moves outside the sim
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine: define these multiple basic worlds
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|even if you don't have a shared API
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|you can expose a pretty good webish API to control stuff
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Why does inventory have to be core? Inventory is just a tree of pointers to assets, the protocol doesn't need to know anything about it.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so in order to change parcel music on my second life parcel i'll have to login with a linden client?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I don' think so Latif
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Naybe a web page? Kind of clumsy...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Saying that inventory is core to VWRAP is like saying that mail folders are core to SMTP. It's nuts.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, how else if parcel management is not standard
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Have you looked at 2.01 media setting panel?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morg: yes, but keep abstracting away and you wind up with IP as the protocol :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine, mail folders are standard in imap
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Web woudl be worse how?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Right click on the grass, and a web page opens
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, saying things cannot be worst that viewer2 isn't saying much
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Same as now - it is just in a separate window
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Or in the internal client
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The webkit internal client is actually pretty decent as a web UI
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i thing that the objects in the world r the core
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The hard thing, and the one you care about it making the thing you expose have proper content
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|think
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|*is
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|8
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|For those that missed it, chat log of Joshua's presentation: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-04-20
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The scenegraph, and the cues, for things which are external to it, Rex?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:10]
| colspan="2"|''Curious Sciurus is Online''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif: I didn't say IMAP, I said SMTP. IMAP doesn't work at all unless the mail was received by SMTP in the first place. VWRAP is the SMTP equivalent. The equivalent to IMAP is (for example) WebDAV.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|A standard thing might be "right click the ground to get parcel info". That will open a window. What is IN the window might vary.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|What I'd say @mojito, is"The cue that you can click on thr land"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|is the bit you need to get standard
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine, nonesense, how is client going to be able to fetch and display inventory to the user if the api for doing so isn't standardized
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and then, the question is what happense
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:11]
| colspan="2"|''Cindy Bolero is Online''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|anything that is made of facets:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Now, someone oculd build a viewert hat did it other ways. Like clicking on the menu bar in the 1.23 viewer
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I observe that we are behaving as if we have confused "VWRAP Core" with "basic stuff in the common interop viewers that we like the look of". I think the former going to be a lot narrower than the latter. Shouldn't we be clear about that?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Again, you need the cue that the option is there, but agreed
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If Inventory management is a service, then each service will have its own look and feel. You pick the one you like
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I am sure the web server control panel form the web service you use is different form the one I use.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|afk a moment, sorry, person trying to do things in meatspace
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif: presentation in a viewer is miles away from the interop that VWRAP is doing. VWRAP has nothing to do with presentation, and folders are a presentation issue.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine, if you in particular could address my last comment?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I agree, Latha.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine, are you actually reading what I say? Inventory needs a defined api, I mention nothing about the presentation, the viewer needs the data in order to show it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha, I think core stuff starts out at real-time interaction and visualization stuff, with whewre your avatar is right now.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Mojito, I think probably not.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"starts out"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|No, I'm saying you're already too broad! :-o
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|oh
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif: yes I read what you are saying very well, and you're confusing a client issue (inventory) with a data interop issue (VWRAP protocol)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The core is how we bootstrap. Might not have any visualization in it at all!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Agree with Latha
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The "world viewer" function and the "inventory viewer" function are separate. One program might implement both
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|u still need 2 know what objects r where
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|even if u dont draw them
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Rex: more along the lines of "who's communicating with whom", I'd think, not necessarily all objects.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|you still need to standardize the protocol for fetching the inventory
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|What an inventory reference to an asset means, clearly has to be standdized
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|3 things need addressing first, scene, asset and inventory
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Also the semantics of "wear this hat"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|back
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm surprised that after 2 years none of this is written and agreed upon
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|they don't work without one other
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If we remove everything from some "VWRAP core", and only standardize that "core", then there is no standardizing of the things that are required for interop. That's the problem.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"It is documented in Linden's code" :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(Anyone want a box full of heat disipation information for Intel servers?"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|is imperativ 2 know what/who is where. it is a 3d world
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|maybe there could be like a common suitcase in all the worlds, and inside it handles all a person's objects somehow
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif: you're thinking "LL". The inventory is not "fetched", except in the stupid Linden model that's totally braindead.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|VWRAP != SL
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|An inventory is a collection of references. Could be stored anywhere
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|As Mojito says
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Could be right onyour local disk.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:17]
| colspan="2"|''Aurora Kitaj is Online''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yep
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well, an in any other client model where you allow somoeone to keep thier inventory seeprate from the client
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Could be, but could be inthe cloud
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Though you might preferr to rent a web place for it, so you can access it from multiple clients,
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:18]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry is not keeping inventory exxlucisvly on the laptop hard disk''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Can log in anywhere and still get my stuff
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:18]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry keeps NOTHING excplusively on the laptop hard disk''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|we can all come up with some far fetched examples... no problem
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Sounds like an "Agent Domain" service
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And, even so
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The "What an inventory reference lokos like"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|is the bulk of the spec
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|whether you fetchi t from a local URI or a remote one
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|is anit
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|its what it looks like,a nd where you can hand it off to that matters
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Spec also has to say how you pass such a reference to the sim, so you can attach/detact/rez/give it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Where ou can hand it, and what happens
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|*you
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Inventory can be anywhere, and you only need to "fetch" it in a legacy setting like with SL. In any sensible client, your inventory will be with you when you log in, you won't need to fetch anything. Only if your local cache gets out of sync, or you're on a new machine, only then with come fetching occur. VWRAP != SL, because SL is insane in its inventory model.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And, for the record? The fact that we're alls till hashing this out, is yes,a pretty major fail for everyone involved
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yep
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i cav have local and sever inventory
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine, you still need an api to fetch it if inventory can be anywhere, I assume by anywhere you include "not on my local disk"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm curious as to how Rycom handles things or Wonderland
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|After 3 years, and we're still debating this. Pretty badm huh
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well, that's your use case Morgaine. My use case is that I never want a local copy to be definitive. The nice thing is that we spec it right an we can do both.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Ryzom*
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Inventory is not Assets.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Though the problems in defining them are somewhat similar
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:22]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry nods''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and I don't hand a sim an inventory item, I don't think to rez a ptim
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Sinced they clearly have to talk to each other as well
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|assets definetly cannot be on your local disk
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|unless you have a P2P world, of course
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I am pretty sure I hand a sim, something I get from the asset server holding the item, which allows the sim to fetch it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Unless your local disk is accessible to the sim
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|assets can be local
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|A HUD might come from you local disk
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Mojito, in that case you become a asset server
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha: I'm right with you there, not saying that local has to be authoritative --- let the authority be where the user chooses.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Sure, they can be local, but that just means you expose your local assets to the external world as an asset server
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If anyone else is supposed to see the thing, it has to be on a public server somewhere
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|unless its a HUD or something similar
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|All I'm saying is make the model realize that the lcoal copy on the disk is nohting privledged
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Its just a frapping URI
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|List of same
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Sometimes loaded locally
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|sometimes lcoaded remotely
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|when u connect 2 server u also upload assets
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and sometimes typed in by your cat
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If someone drew a compelling picture (like, a visual drawing) of VWRAP plus a couple of other associated protocols, showing how VWRAP Core allows them to be knitted together using identity, service discovery, and setting up of streaming connections from A to B ... then we'd be less stressed about what "must" be in VWRAP Core.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mystical Demina|Mystical Demina]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but you are assuming assets will go through an asset server, can't the client just be given an URI and get it directly?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:24]
| colspan="2"|''Gazanfer Jehangir is Online''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The asset server is where it is stored.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|@mystical that URI is an asset server
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|server(s)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mystical Demina|Mystical Demina]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ok
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|wherever you store it, the URI points to it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha: a big unsorted list of stuff we can bicker and argue about the partitioning of would be handier
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|can be a huge cloud of linden aset servers
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|also, the issue of shared experience comes up. If you have a private URI, its only for your consumption
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|You pass the URI to the sim, saying "rez this here".
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Sim and asset server negotiate whether you are allowed to do this.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(and probably a onetime or limtied use URI in a lot of cases)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|NaoWut, disagree. Then we get all upset because something's above or below the line, but we need to realize when doesn't matter so much.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha: heh, point ;)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|well. the sever that hosts the 3d world can become a temp asset server
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|How strict the access controls are is entirely up to the asset server. Potential for different service offerings there
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha: but that'll happen anyway :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|totally Mojitoa
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And the binding of servcie to hardware box is very much a choice
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Put it all in one box, or scatter it across the web
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Like Github.. Public storage is free up to a certain size. Want more than that, or fancy access controls, you pay
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the protocol shouldn't really care, except tot he extent you see delays
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and you can alkways sidestep the classic client-server model by using a cobalt-style plugin to share assets only with particpants in whatever you're doing (whiteboard or mortal combat)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So Linden could offer their own Asset server in house. OIt has to compete with thew 3rd pary services, but their advantage would be performance
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If I put my assets in a link set, and each prim in the set is in a differen server, on a different combat, don't expect fast rezzing
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|*contientnt
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|sheeesh
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:28]
| colspan="2"|''Saijanai Kuhn admires Qarl's original ant''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Reading and typing is hard
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Enus says its still used for region crossing issues
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|There's no reason to assume that there is any single privleged deployment pattern
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Asset server inside or outside trusted cluster is the choice of the peopel putting up regoins and grids
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think we have a small naming problem: we're using the term "inventory" to mean two different things, (i) the tree of IN-CLIENT references that all clients with inventory functions MUST have locally, and (ii) the authoritative tree that may be elsewhere.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|You can also have a replicated asset service, to improve response times to worldwide viewers.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|A user in Europe might fetch your clothing texture form a different server tha nsomebody in Japan
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the question that comes up here is the objective of vwrap, what does it want to do really?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|using the same URI
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|is the goal to provide a spec that would allow building of a universal VW client
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and some kind of proxy network thing ala what the intel guy mentioned recently
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I don't personally want a single universal client,tho it shoudl be possible to build one
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif - I think that is certainly one of the primary goals
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|qusi-universal at least
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|or is it going to be some minimul required, so you can be a tourist, but for more advanced features you would need a specific world client
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think both would happen
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|a bit of both< I think
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|+1 mojtio
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Especially if one world had some unique content.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I fully expect there will be times when peopel say 'For the best experience, use the flibleblob client"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But a plugin archgitecture might evolve, like for web media
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|just like you see "This works best on IE8, Chrome or Firefox 5+ with flash 10 or higher"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, then we are back and web 1.0 iconds "use ie6 here" only
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Add this plugin to the viewert to render my nifty molecular diagrams
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|where do you see those anymore?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think both "allow universal client" and "minimal required" are too ambitious. Framework for describing/bootstrapping those, perhaps?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|In corporations, whose developers fo rinhouse stuff only design for IE
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|if you use older than about ie7, you see them a fair bit, not whole pages, but you get broken bits and pop up warnings still
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think you'll see one or more prettty big universal clients
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Where I work, we are not supposed to ship stuff to customers that requires a specific browser. The inhouse apps do not seem to be following that rule
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I expect you'll see (and we can't stop if we try) client/sim pairings which simply do better than others
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:33]
| colspan="2"|''Paradox Olbers is Online''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But, I expect if you use a current, broadly popular client
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|then vwrap should define everything such universal client should be able to acomplish
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think we're trying to create a protocol for VW rendering that mirrors the protocol for website rendering. If we don't do that, then there will be no interop.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the bulk of vwrap complient sims will work
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I use the analog of HTTP/HTML/UTF8, and what theat combination allowed the web to grow into
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Static Melody|Static Melody]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i agree with morgaine, the basic protocol should just render the world at vw://myworld.com and allow links (teleports)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Think "mashup". That's what VW interop is about, creating a visual mashup of elements from more than one VW.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:34]
| colspan="2"|''NightShade Fugu is Online''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Static: you're agreeing to something I didn't say :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif, I'm concerned that you are imagining way too much in VWRAP. I think you're describing VWRAP plus a couple of other things.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|protocol dosn't have anything 2 do with rendering
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|one hopes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The procoocl only touches rendering tot he extend it describes some prim stuff
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and mesh stuff and suc
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|h
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Static Melody|Static Melody]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yes, and that's it :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but.. that's the smallest (if most iomportant in some cases) bits
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But the data describing the meshes to the viewer, and textures, comes from elsewhere
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha, I'm concered that vwrap wants to minimize itself to the point where making a universal client is impossible
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|viwer renders data. protocol only transports it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Just like your web page may contain a picture that comes form a different server entirely
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif++
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif--
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Finding the bounary between those too, is the challange here
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|*two
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha: VWRAP has to provide interop. If it doesn't then it's failed, so it does no good to exclude things from VWRAP purely for elegance. An elegant, slim VW protocol that doesn't provide VW interop is of no use to man or beast.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine--
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The "universal client" is not going to just speak VWRAP Core and that's all it speaks.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha--
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Make the client too fat, and we're never going to finish, or allow innovatoin, too thin, and it will become no interop
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But an easy solution is the one Josh proposed - you pop up a web page to handle the out-of-band stuff.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The sweet spot, is enough commonality to allow extention and inocatoin
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|*innocatoin
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|*innovation
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the web, especially in 1995, was pretty slender
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|new ideas
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|TY Nao
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think this is sorta important, I'm amazed that we're quite so out of sync on this. I see the minimal core as being about bootstrapping, not defining what a satisfying level of interop is.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It's pointless defining "VWRAP Core" to be the core functions of VWRAP". That gets us nowhere.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|A minimal web browser doe snot barf when presented HTML. It gets more useful once you give it a pretty page to render
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Bootstrapping, or Satisfying?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|me = bootstrapping.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|My personal take is that the core is going to be the same in both cases, btw, the only question is where we draw the normative vs. optional lines
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It is going to be an iterative process
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|+1 mojito
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Otherwise HTTP and HTML would not have version numbers
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:39]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry chuckles''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|What we're trying to achieve is interop. If we want to factor the interop protocol into a few separate and clean chunks, that's great. But we can't just standardize one of them, some mythical "core", and expect interop to happen by magic. The other protocols need to be standardized too.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|mind you we use 0.9 and 1.0 pretty much only for http
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|html has grown up a lot more
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and NOTE that http is the protocol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and html is the content rep
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|which is not shocking
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...slow down, you're loosing me already XD
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|http really hasn't changed a lot in 15 years. html has changed a lot more, and html+core espect stuff, has changed even more
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and I think that's a n important model to keep in mind
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|HTTP was designed to be extensible, with new headers
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yeah. note, a lot of that was refining the spec to address the invitable ambiguities that had crept in
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(microsoft dicking around aside)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I expect a lot of what I htink of as "core vwrap" or the buildng blocks" is http like stuff
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and the 'How do I do land management" or "how do I do media setting" is more about content makrup, ie, I pass along the "Thsi is acontrol thing" teanspoert
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mystical Demina|Mystical Demina]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|at least http like stuff would be a good start, keeping it simple will make it easier to get adopted
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and the markup which tells me what it is, changes over time as we understand more
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|All mentions of HTTP in the forgoing is not to suggest that HTTP is the one great protcol on which VWs should be based. Mergely for illustration
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|+10 mojito
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|^ as mojito says
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yeah Mojito
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|HTTP will have its place
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but we need fleshed out details on low latency world updates, and. actual. real. data.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:43]
| colspan="2"|''Latha Serevi decline hitchhikers towel with logo from A group member named Squirrel Wood.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it would be terribly embarssing to specify a nerfed protocol there...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well, in most scenes, attm, the vast majority of databy bytes is tectures and sculpties
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|By volume, yes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The "real time"ish stuff
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Not be message count
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|is lots of small packets
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|which tell you where things are
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and sometimes, how they are moving
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And where they move
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(oh, and nits like chat and such)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And that I just changed my anim
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:44]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry nods a mojito''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|animations, and sounds also
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|right, by message count, real time may well be highest
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|by volume, gettign big slugs of quasi static data to render almost certainly is volume
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Lots of little messages. But ordering and reliable delivery are still important
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|SL protocol as-is is pretty terse about that, most data by valume is assets
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:45]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry nods''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|agreed. also note we need some objectives, world update frequency for e.g. I don't expect VWRAP to accomodate fast twitch ego shooters, but i don't see any caveat there
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|volume even
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I expect that the protocol *should* allow us to slot in a nice low level realtime transport for the realtie caps as they become more avaialble
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|You can not get around the fact that end-to-end transmission delays are on the order of 100ms
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|just offloading asset downloads from sim dramatically improves its perfomance, intel engieers found
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Wut, there's no reason why a VWRASP compatible viewer/world can't handlde FTES
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha: absolutely, but it probably ought not to be a goal for core
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Not sure, if the caps grant pattern is rich
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|allt hat changes is I grant a nice rtp:// cap
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|not a https:// cap
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Wut: we already have a nerfed protocol defined, since currently we're doing everything over long poll and hence 50 times the current latency. I'm hoping HTTP negotiation lets us specify an alternative mechanism, else there will be trouble.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Cerainly aVW running entirely on a campus LAN should be able to take advantage of the faster timing available
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Actually, morgaine, very little flows over the long poll inthe actuall linden sims
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|deifne "long poll" I keep seeing that term
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:47]
| colspan="2"|''Gazanfer Jehangir is Offline''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The http get pipe for fetching sim->client data
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the client gets a http connection to the sim and requests new events from it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|becaue the sims can' address the client as an http server
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|all these discussions about protocol r nice, but maybe we need a server to test things on
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But in practie, all that data, mostly is on udp still
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha: that's because SL hasn't moved everything to HTTP yet.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| colspan="2"|''googoo Papp is Online''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Ajax long poll
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(One might ask why, Morgaine, mightn't one)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|:-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Sounds to me like keeping a READ open on your network socket would be enough for that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I will observe that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so. why is going to provide the server?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|a 90% tcp pipe or a 90% UDP pipe both work better than
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|a 50-50 UDP//TCP pipe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(Because the backoff mechanaisms don't talk to ech other)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Mojito: pretty much, long poll is simply where client connects to server, and server blocks until events come in, whereupon it flushes messages to the client
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|well, let me port opensim to smalltalk, and Merik will be happy to host one for free on his silicon squeak server ;-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Mojito: webbies don't understand TCP. They don't realized that data can come to you without sending an HTTP request first.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morg: they do, it's just the protocols and infrastructure don't allow it.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|not all webbies are drooling idiots
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I want the world descriptions to come to me on TCP. Guaranteed delivery.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Goldie Katsu|Goldie Katsu]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|push vs. pull
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Webbies assume everyone's behind a firewall. Unix-ies assume no one is. :-b
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|just about any comp can handle long poll. Some can't handle more traditional games connections
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|huge amounts of the internet is built around the downstream dominantn, firewall blocked model, as much as one hates it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Wut: the protocols and infrastructure ***DO*** allow it. And always have, since the start of TCP/IP. The only problem is in webbie's minds.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If I connect to the server over TCP, you get a bi-directional pair of channels, and no firewall issues
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:51]
| colspan="2"|''Paradox Olbers is Offline''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yep
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|As Mojito says.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And the bandwidth providers habit of blocking traffic at the boundary edge
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Mojito: yep. hence the model. of course if UPNP is configured (ick) or you explicitly open ports, more fun can ensue.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And UDP works through most firealls as long as you send keep-alive messages
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|UDP works through everything other than broken firewalls :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|depends how paranoid your firewall admin is
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It's totally bizarre that the basic operation of TCP/IP is completely ignored, just because of a web view.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|tcp goes through a lot fewer places than udp
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Even though the web is implemented on top of TCP
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|huh?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|You'd think the webbies would trig, huh? Not a chance though
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|fewer places?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|one of the problems with udp is that lots of firewalls don't let it pass:(
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|twig*
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The coporate firewall at my office only allows outbound connections to TCP port 80. But there is a way through that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ptth FTW
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i can get free network access on my phone if i limit my communications to DNS queries :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And it being almost 11:00 last thoughts?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and anyone got a topic for next week?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|There's no need for all that stupid ptth crap. Again, it's webbie thinking.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|we need pictures
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|that's a pretty low bandwidth connection but you coiuld probably handle gorup IM through it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|DNS-abuse?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|shh. it's fun. if laggy :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|until somenoe notices you doing it and shuts you off
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Does anyone want to help me to draw the inspiring pretty-picture diagram that helps us all get along in sweetness and light, by showing three or four VWRAP pieces including Latha's "bootstrapping" piece and enough other pieces for Morgaine's "Satisfying" requirement?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha: true. i've not yet tried to download several megabytes of junk through it in one go for that reason :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|A single TCP stream opened from the client to the server is enough to carry messages in both directions forever, with no need for any HTTP at all.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ask that in groupies IM as well, Latha
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Not this week, but possibly in 2, Latha
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|that's how comet works, morg.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Wut: no it doesn't
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine, yes, but that also means you have to write your own app level protocol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Goldie Katsu|Goldie Katsu]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|As long as you can get through the firewall - some fws actually do protocol checking and not just port filtering.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|More and more stateful ones, actually
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and you end up in a situation which you criticize linden udp for, it's not really udp, but udp + some magic sause on top
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif: sure, but it's not rocket science to frame messaging.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif: failsauce?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|tcp has problems with high startup cost and multiplexing issues that require writing another protocol on top of it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Old rule of networking anyone using UDP implement TCP on top of it, but badly
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I have some ideas for some doodles, I will try to make up
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Goldie Katsu|Goldie Katsu]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|either that or magic sauce using the magic you didn't want.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I just want to say I have faith in you guys to figure all this stuff out, and learn from past experience and make this whole VW thing amazing and a great tool for humanity, like a whole new frontier of the internet and social networking
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|how about implementing UDP on top of http?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|don't be hard on yourselves, it's already mind-blowingly fantastic and it's less than a decade old
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|if such a thing is to every exists it might need sponsors:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|if you build it, they will come
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif: LL reimplemented a reliability layer, not simple message framing over an already reliable stream. There's no rocket science in framing, whereas a reliability layer is black magic because you have concurrent interactions, race conditions, and all that jazz.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Dahlia, open vpn can tunnel everything (including udp and icmp) over basically https :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Goldie Katsu|Goldie Katsu]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|some graphics would be nice as it helps me see the pieces all together.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|zThat's what we're hoping RevM
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:58]
| colspan="2"|''Agent Heliosense is Offline''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|even philip need it monies to make sl:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|RevMagdelen: yes. but if you build it wrong then they will complain loudly and you'll wish they hadn't.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|haha nao!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|zha, at some point or another, could you invite philip to talk about what he's been doing lately?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|well you guys are so careful to correct one another and check every angle I am sure you will build it well
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|morgaine. u r right is not rocket science
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it is called computer science:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Rex =7
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|What Philip is doing has no bearing on VWRAP
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Ooh. Interesting. It hink he's pretty much deep in the bowls of his love child
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif, I wasnt serious but I felt like I was doing just that when I was working with an event queue model
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I asked him to stop by and chat in Groupies IM, but that was a bit of a bust
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Goldie Katsu|Goldie Katsu]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|even built well there will be criticisms but built well you can at least argue for it confidently.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha: that was a somewhat unfortunate mixed metaphor :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Dahlia, except EQ is bad high-latency UDP :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Goldie Katsu|Goldie Katsu]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I agree with Morgaine there.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|or very forunate, take your pick Morgaine ;-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I don't htink he's doing much VW thinking attm
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yeah, my spacemoney is on Zha doing that intentional, now the logging stopped :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:01]
| colspan="2"|''shamirkatsu: graphics would not help with that zha''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|he seems pretty much focused on Lovemachine
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Goldie Katsu|Goldie Katsu]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the love child metaphor?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif, latency can be improved
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Goldie Katsu|Goldie Katsu]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That makes sense that that is his focus. Metaphors aside.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the fine grained wuffi management tool, yes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Whuffie
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|sigh
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Dahila: yea, with a protocol design methology driven by measurements taken with heavy loading
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I cannot type for beans today
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|oh he stopped by Sunday afternoon and said hi, but the only response he got was less than tech-oriented
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|that's about usual for philip for the last few years though
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|time 4 me 2g2 andrew's oh. tc everybody
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Measurements ... that'll be the day.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|seeya rex
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|NaoWut, the heavy loading is the hard part :/
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morg: i know, right? XD
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Dahlia, oh, i can load your servers heavily, np!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|xD
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|xD ind eed
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I can too, but bots dont really work as well
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|People do such odd things in real life
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|bots just.. don't
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|no
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:04]
| colspan="2"|''Aurora Kitaj is Offline''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|eh random number generators could do odd things too
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i had a boss once, who managed to foil every single test case i'd ever written
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That said, I suspect bot load would be better than not
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and I suspect the current sims have been build with "not"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well with all the brickbats the LL viewer receives, I think it's worth mentioning that it's the best-instrumented 3D app on the planet. (Of the ones I've seen anyway :P)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|pyogp is barely being utilized from what I can gather
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:05]
| colspan="2"|''WordzKicker Payer v1.03: $10 WordzKicker - Latha Serevi, you were KICKED from slot 4 by Honey Coba! You won $40!''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|well i'm of the opinion that frankly, the first 4 designs we might come up with will suck. nicer to know why sooner rather than later
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|totally nao
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Unity has a lot of instrumentation
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|whichi is why working from working if broken
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|is good
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I actually like the Viewer 2 except for the default security settings, but I know I am outvoted by like everyone ever ;-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i'm happy to work from broken. i just need some real data to do anything. driving blindfolded is pretty useless :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:06]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry looks at Rev and calls the ambulance in fromt he funny farm''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:06]
| colspan="2"|''Saijanai Kuhn srhugs hard to keep track of requirements for bouncing back and forth with viewers so I stick to V2''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|well I think it will be the easiest one to use to bring new people in
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|/e is on v2.01 but.. it's painful in so many ways
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it has everything simply laid out
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So does a brick.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|only they sould put the "stop animating me" on a big button because it's scary for noobs when they get stuck
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Dahlia: sounds good, but I can't take Unity seriously while it's Windows only :-(
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Ive been using V2 for a couple months now, I'm really trying to give it a fair shake... but it's severly compromised compared to older UI designs
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|rev: and "take me to the money tree"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hahaaa!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:08]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry ponders the needed newb buttons''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morg: it's not windows only! they support Mac too! :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"TP me to Zindra"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"Money please"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"Stop animating me"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|well I'm hoping taht more noobs will be coming for specific events, like a field trip into 3D worlds for transitioning into having a 3D element in an existing social network
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"Start animating US"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so hopefully they will not be annoying noobs, they will be serious people ;-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|actually you might have accidentally raised a point there rev :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yay!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha: it would be particularly nice to have WebGL support
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|/ne likes all people, neebs are important, not matter how annoying at first
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Without newbs, the places will die
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|given that will be adopted rather widely by the time anything like an RFC would be published
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the main reason Im using V2 tho is because I dont need invisiprims with this avatar ;)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Good reason that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:10]
| colspan="2"|''Tillie: It's sooo hard to do anything with client 2.0, if you do not just newbie stuff like teleporting around and watching.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Tillie :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hopefully it would be something like, oh, everyone in this or that club or group will have a space in a virtual world, and meet up there as a regular thing for soem reason, to hear a speaker or listen to a podcast or socialize with whoever
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:11]
| colspan="2"|''Tillie: But even then... teleporting using the map, no x/y/z coords to enter ... *sigh*''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:11]
| colspan="2"|''Hermit: Accessing art.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it will be like having email or twitter or facebook, you have your 3D telepresence space
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|well Im off to another meeting.. bye all :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|only hopefully people will look cooler in telepresence
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ok, everyone see you all next week for another exciting round of As the Virtual World turns
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm in OSgrid
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|like this group right here ;-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:NaoWut Digfoot|NaoWut Digfoot]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha :) see ya
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:11]
| colspan="2"|''Jeddin Laval is Online''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Goldie Katsu|Goldie Katsu]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|See ya
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Nice jacket, Goldie :-)
??? [11:12] GoldieKatsu: thanks!|}

AW Groupies

2010-05-25T18:19:11Z

Latha Serevi: /* 2010 meetings */

=Purpose=
Serious technical discussion about Linden Lab's [[Architecture Working Group|Architecture Working Group (AWG)]]. "AW Groupies" is an unofficial, Resident-operated group, though most (all?) members also participate in the AWG.

Invite only (apply in-world to [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]), but the criterion is simple. Show up and contribute to the AWG, at [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]'s office hours, or on the Wiki, or on SL-Dev or in the [irc://irc.freenode.net/#pyogp irc channel] for the [[Pyogp/Client_Lib|Python test client]].

=Activities=
The [[AW_Groupies#Architecture_Working_Group_meetings|main AWG meeting]] is held annually or semi-annually.
We now [[AW_Groupies#In-World_Meetings|meet up to 8 times a week in-world]], counting AW Groupies meeting, Zero's office hours, Which's office hours, Enus's office hours, Whump's office hours and the [[Pyogp#In_World_Meetings|pygop daily meetings]].

Our main focus these days is on the [[Open Grid Protocol]], the [[Open_Grid_Public_Beta]] and the [[Pyogp|pyogp Python test harness]] for protocol testing.

Also members are quite active on the wiki and in the SLDEV mailing list.

A public SVN repository is open to all AW Groupies members here:
* http://openmv.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/archwg/

Contact anyone with root on openmv.org for an account if you are in the AW Groupies group in-world.

==Architecture Working Group meetings==
* [[AWG_Meeting_1|AWG I annual meeting transcript, participants' responses, etc]]
* [[AWG_Meeting_2|AWG II annual meeting transcript, video, participants' responses, etc]]

==In-World Meetings==
===AW Groupies meeting===
Weekly meeting times are:
* '''Mondays''' -------

* '''Tuesdays''' ------ 9:30 AM SLT at [http://slurl.com/secondlife/ThorneBridgeTown/156/129/25 Zha's IBM Island at ThorneBridgeTown] (weekly AWG meeting)
* ------------------ FIRST TUESDAY of the month ONLY: 1 PM SLT at [http://slurl.com/secondlife/Grasmere/171/112/27 Zero Linden's office hours at Grasmere]
* ------------------ Noon SLT [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies#OpenSim__meeting| Open Sim Meeting]

* '''Wednesdays''' -- Suspended until further notice: 1:30 PM SLT @ [http://slurl.com/secondlife/ambleside/228/244/25/?title=Whump%20Linden%27s%20Office Whump Linden's Office Hours] (main meeting for public grid open beta)

* '''Thursdays''' ----- 11 AM SLT at [http://slurl.com/secondlife/Beaumont/149/44/24 Which Linden's office hours at Beaumont] (often AWG-related these days)
* '''Fridays''' --------- 1 PM SLT [http://slurl.com/secondlife/Longfellow/99/97/28 Enus Linden's Office Hours] (starring PyOGP and [[Pyogp#Pic_of_the_Moment|a cast of several bots]])
:
Meetings are scheduled via the "[http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com SL AW Groupies" google calendar]" (though the above schedule is generally more accurate).

* [http://www.google.com/calendar/feeds/pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic XML]
* [http://www.google.com/calendar/ical/pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics ICal]
* Calendar ID: pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4@group.calendar.google.com
* [http://www.google.com/calendar/render?cid=pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com Add to your Google Calendar]

====Meeting Agendas====

Each meeting should have an agenda --- which will be distributed via
* google calendar entry
* in-world notice to the SL "AW Groupies" group
* the [[AW Groupies In-World Meeting Agenda]] wiki page

===OpenSim meeting===
* Tuesdays/Saturdays noon SLT, at Wright Plaza sim in OSGrid. [http://osgrid.org/index.php?page=home&btn=1 Registration Page]

Set [[Client_parameters|client command line options]] to:
:-loginuri http://osgrid.org:8002
:-loginpage http://osgrid.org/loginscreen.php
:-helperuri http://osgrid.org/

===Chat Logs===

Chat logs of the in-world meetings are published and accessible via the links below:

====2007 meetings====
:* September: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/2007-09-28 | 28]]
:* October: [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-01 | 1]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-05 | 5]] [[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2007_Oct_09|9 --Zero's office]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-16| 16]]
:* November: [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-06 | 6]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-13 | 13]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-20| 20]]
====2008 meetings====
:* January: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-01-08|08]]
:*February: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-02-19|19]]
:*April: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-08|08]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-22|22]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-29|29]]
:*May: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-05-20|20]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-05-27|27]]
:*June: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-03|03]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-10|10]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-17|17]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-24|24]]
:*July: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-01|01]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-08| 08]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-15|15]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-22|22]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-29|29]]
:*August: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-05|05]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-12|12]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-19|19]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-26|26]]
:* September [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-09|9]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-16|16]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-23|23]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-30|30]]
:* October [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-07|7]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-14|14]] [[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_October_14|14 --Zero's O.H.]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-28|28]]
:* November [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-11-11|11]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-11-18|18]]
:* December [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-09|9]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-16|16]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-23|23]]
====2009 meetings====
:*January [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-06|6]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-13|13]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-20|20]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-27|27]]
:*February [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-03|3]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-10|10]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-17|17]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-24|24]]
:*March [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-03-03|3]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-03-10|10]]
:*April [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-07|7]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-14|14]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-28|28]]
:*June [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-06-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-06-16|16]]
:*July [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-07-21|21]]
:*September [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-09-15|15]]
:*October [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-10-20|20]]
====2010 meetings====
:*March [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-03-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-03-09|9]]
:*April [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/JoeLindenTPVBrownbag-2010-04-13|13joe]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-04-20|20joshua]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/JoeLindenTPVBrownbag-2010-04-20|20joe]]
:*May [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-05-04|04proxies]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-05-19|18meadhbh]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-05-25|25]]
*
* [[MMOX#Chat_logs|MMOX chat logs]] -- in-world transcripts with non-SL/Opensim participants
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Grid_Interoperability_Chat_Logs All Grid Interoperability chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:AW_Groupies_Transcripts All AW Groupies chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Pyogp_Transcripts All Pyogp chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Open_Grid_Public_Beta_Transcripts All Open Grid Public Beta Transcripts]
*
* [[User:Zero_Linden#Transcripts_of_previous_office_hours|Zero Linden's Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Which_Linden|Which Linden's Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Enus_Linden| Enus Linden Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Whump_Linden| Whump Linden Office Hour Transcripts]]
*
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=chat+log OpenSim chat logs]
* [[Mono/2008-04-04 | mono beta meeting discussion of het-grid]]

(if you post chat logs, you might want to use the [[User:Dr_Scofield/logtransform|sllog2wiki perl script]] to turn them into a more readable wiki table format ready to copy & paste into the chat log page)

Chat logs of AWGroupies meetings should be summarized on the wiki.

==Viewpoint Advocacy Groups==

[[Viewpoint Advocacy Groups]] - groups to focus on specific requirements.
=== AWG-specific VAGs===

* [[Core Grid Services, Protocols, and Structures VAG]]
* [[Event Scalability VAG]]
* [[Geometry and Physics VAG]]
* [[Live Performances VAG]]
* [[Quality Assurance VAG]]
* [[Scalability VAG]]
=== AWG-related VAGs===
* [[Map_API_VAG]]
* [[Multi-Process Client VAG -- draft]]

=Work-In-Progress=

Work-in-progress wiki pages are architecture pages that are (as the name implies ;-)) work in progress. Once the group has reached consensus that a particular topic is "good-to-go" we'll graduate that page to the [[Architecture Working Group|main AWG page]].

==General Concerns==
* [[Scoping]]
* [[Architecture Working Group Glossary|Glossary]]
* [[Use Cases]]
===Open Grid Protocol (OGP)===
====Linden Pages====

====User Pages====

==Communications==
* [[Initial CAPS seed]]
* [[AWG initial flows]]
* [[AWG flows login]]

* [[Mudata]]
* [[Streamlet]]
===Documenting current protocols===
* [[Pyogp|Python test harness for OGP]]
** [[User:Which_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_May_22| Which Linden office hours 22 May 2008]]
====AWG and citizen pages====
* [[Current_login_protocols]]
* [[Current_Sim_Capabilities]]
* [[Example_protocol_code]]
* [[Hegemons_Login_Analysis#Very_simple_C.23__server]]
* [[User:Gareth_Ellison/Supergrid|Litesim grid interop]]
* [[EventQueueGet_CAP| Event Queue Get CAP]]

====Linden Lab pages====
* [[Service_Disruptions|"Satellite's Eye" view of the Second Life architecture from a service disruption POV]]
* [[Message_System_and_Capabilities]]
* [[Viewer_Authentication]]
* [[Viewer_Architecture]]
* [[Protocol]]
* [[LLSD]]
* [[Certified_HTTP_Escrow]]
* [[ImprovedInstantMessage]]
* [[Client_parameters|client command line parameters and stuff]]

====libsecondlife reference pages====
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Login Login page]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Protocol_%28network%29 Protocol page]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Category:Packets packets index]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Movement Movement]

====opensim reference pages====
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Grid_Architecture_Diagram opensim grid architecture diagram]
* [http://opensimulator.org/images/3/3c/OGS1Login_Sequence.jpg login diagram (same general sequence as current LL login)]

=== Future Protocols===
* [[Second_Life_Login_API_Strawman]]
:deprecated in favor of:
* [[Open Grid Protocol]]
** [[SLGOGP_Teleport_Strawman]]
*[[Architecture_Working_Group#Design_Documents | Ongoing next generation protocols documentation effort by Linden Lab]]

=== Possible future directions ===
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenID| OpenID A decentralized single sign-on system]
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yadis| Yardis A digital identity protocol]

==Asset Security and Trust==
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Dale_Innis/Asset_handling_in_OGP Asset Handling in OGP]
* [[Protecting content in an open grid]]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Infinity_Linden/OGP_Trust_Model OGP Trust Model]

==Scaling Issues==
* [[Brainstorming#ANALYSIS:_Region_Subdivision_as_a_scaling_method| Region Subdivision]]
* [[Brainstorming#ANALYSIS:_Scalability_through_reverse_proxies:_the_paravirtual_grid| Reverse Proxies]]
* [[AWG Scalability through per-resident subdivision of the Grid| Resident Subdivision]]
===Group IM===
* [[Message_Queue_Evaluation_Notes| Which Linden's message queue evaluation notes]]

==Other==
* [[Use_Cases#Extended_Capability_Clients|Extended Capability Clients]]

=Thinking-in-Progress=

* Have a look and contribute to the [[Brainstorming|brainstorming]] page.

* It's early days on the [[Multi-Process Client VAG -- draft]], but we would highly appreciate input to help with design choices and direction.
==Misc User Pages==
* Have an AWG idea? Don't know where in the wiki it should be indexed? Make sure that folks can find it by adding it to the [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:AW_Groupies_User_Pages AW_Groupies_User_Pages] Add: <nowiki>'[[Category:AW Groupies User Pages]]'</nowiki> to the end of your user page.

=External Resources=

Stuff of interest to or in connection with the [[AW Groupies]] or the [[Architecture Working Group]]:

* [[Developer_communication_tools|Developer Communication Tools (Linden Lab)]]
* [[SLDev|SLDev Main Page]]
* [[Open_Grid_Public_Beta]]
* [[Pyogp]] {Linden Labs/ AWG Python-based protocols testing library)
*
* [http://openmv.org/ OpenMetaverse Home]
**[http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Main_Page libsecondlife (libsl) homepage]
**[http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page opensim homepage]
**[http://openviewer.org openviewer homepage]
**[http://code.google.com/p/openmetaverse/wiki/SimianGrid SimianGrid]
*[http://www.osgrid.org OSGrid: open/non-profit OpenSim based grid]
* [http://www.realxtend.org/ realxtend homepage]
*
* [http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/22428.wss IBM PR re: AWG]

Latha's quick list of interop relevant VW sites, 3/30/2010
* http://tools.ietf.org/wg/vwrap/
* http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page
* http://openwonderland.org/
* http://www.realxtend.org/
* http://code.google.com/p/openmetaverse/wiki/SimianGrid
* http://www.opencobalt.org/
* http://www.solipsis.org/
* http://www.web3d.org/

==Second Life Viewers==
Various viewers compatible with Second Life.

::*Note: the "Derived 3rd-party clients" page includes a few non GPL viewers plus some hybrids. I'll try to come up with a better way to index this stuff. [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]
::*Yeah, that redirect of "Alternate_viewers" to "Downloads" is nuts, and the "Downloads" page itself seems to have to have a variety of things bundled together --- it needs splitting. But don't split it by license, that's precisely what I sought to eliminate in this section's re-org. It makes no sense to classify clients by license, since GPL'd clients don't necessarily have anything to do with Linden's code, just like BSD clients don't necessarily have anything to do with libomv. It does make sense to keep a list of Linden-derived clients though, since they're all more alike than not alike, and share both code and license encumbrance. [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]] 01:28, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

===Viewers based on the Linden Lab GPL code (C++)===

*[http://secondlife.com/support/downloads.php Main Second Life viewer/client]
:The main (official) Second Life viewer, produced by Linden Lab with the help of patches submitted by the community, and available for Linux, Mac and Windows.

*[[Snowglobe|Snowglobe]]

:A new version of the Second Life client in a public repository where Linden Lab permits direct committing from select community members alongside daily Linden work. There is also a new build system to keep this version continuously building when new submissions are received, with new builds available to everyone. This version will become available as an alternative Linden download alongside the main SL client, once it is sufficiently stable.

*[[Alternate_viewers|Derived 3rd-party clients]] (''currently links to a mixed "Downloads" page, to be fixed'')
:A large list of clients (not necessarily 3D) developed in the free and open-source community using GPL code from the above two official viewers.

===Viewers based on the libomv/libsl code (C#)===

* [http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/idealistviewer/ Idealist]
:IdealistViewer is a new cross-platform viewer based on the Irrlicht engine, PrimMesher, and LibOpenmetaverse. It can either use the Second Life protocols as provided by LibOpenmetaverse or the MXP protocol. Since it uses the Irrlicht engine it can simultaneously display prim/sculptie content and objects and animated meshes/avatars from a wide variety of sources such as Collada, .OBJ, DirectX, and Blitz3D files. It is not derived from the LL GPL viewer and is made available under BSD style licensing. It is designed to work with OpenSimulator but may also work with Second Life. It is written in the C# language.

* [http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/lookingglass/ LookingGlass]
:LookingGlass viewer is a modular viewer with pluggable communication and rendering engines. Initial communication plugin uses LibOpenMetaverse and the initial rendering plugin uses PrimMesher and Ogre. It is written in C# and BSD licensed. Home site at http://lookingglassviewer.org/ .

===Viewers based on other libraries (python, C, etc)===

* [[Pyogp]]
: Pyogp is an open source project between Linden Lab and the Architecture Working Group (AWG) to support testing the (Open Grid Protocol (OGP). Written in Python, Pyogp will consist initially of a client library and test functionality to enable testing OGP-enabled virtual worlds such as Second Life and compatible OpenSim implementations. These components will expand as the effort matures. Pyogp is released under the Apache v2 license.

==Mailing Lists==
* [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo List of Linden Lab mailing lists]
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sldev SLDEV] Main mailing list for SL developers
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gridnauts gridnauts] Mailing list for participants in Open Grid Public Beta
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pyogp PyOGP] Mailing List for Python-based client library and test harness for the Open Grid Protocols
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Resources#Mailing_Lists libsecondlife]
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page opensim]
* [http://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/openviewer-dev openviewer]
* [http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/vwrap/current/maillist.html VWRAP]

==IRC==
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#opensl
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#opensl-jira (real time updates of entries to jira.secondlife.com)
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#opensl-svn (updates of the the public SVN)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#opensim * irc://irc.freenode.net/#opensim-dev
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#libomv * irc://irc.efnet.net/#libomv-dev
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#openviewer * irc://irc.freenode.net/#openviewer-dev
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#realxtend (Finnish language but can handle English if needed)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#pyogp (Python test harness/pyogp Second LIfe library irc)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#gridnauts (Open Grid Public Beta irc)

==Forums==
* [http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend| realXtend google forum]

==Capabilities==

* [http://www.cap-lore.com/CapTheory/index.html Capabilities theory and practice]
* [http://wiki.erights.org/wiki/Zooko%27s_triangle Zook's Triangle index] -- short list of interesting articles about naming and capabilties
* [http://www.cs.washington.edu/homes/levy/capabook/ Capability-based Systems by Henry Levy] --online copy of 1984 book on early implementations of capabilities systems
* [http://www.erights.org/ E language home] [https://www.cypherpunks.to/erights/ E language home mirror] [http://wiki.erights.org/ E wiki] --computer language dedicated to handling distributed trust issues
** [https://www.cypherpunks.to/erights/elib/capability/index.html Capability Computation]
** irc://irc.freenode.net/#erights
** [http://www.eros-os.org/mailman/listinfo/e-lang E language mailing list]
* [http://www.eros-os.org/mailman/listinfo/cap-talk mailing list for capability systems]
* [http://mscheffler.wordpress.com/2008/01/20/diploma/ blog and thesis on caps in virtual worlds Martin Scheffler]
* [http://homepage.mac.com/kpreid/elang/den.html Cap-based MUD by Kevin Reid] --written in E
* [http://www.fudco.com/chip/lessons.html discussion of ancient (Commodore 64!) video game that used capabilities]

==Misc==

* [http://blog.signpostmarv.name/2008/07/29/non-unique-region-names-within-the-confines-of-a-single-grid-yay-or-nay/ non-unique region names within the confines of a single grid, yay or nay ?]
* [http://blog.signpostmarv.name/2008/01/04/map-api-in-new-location/ discussion of new Map API and related issues]
* [http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source Open Source Portal] --index to all things Open Source for Linden Lab

=Members=

Founder [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]

[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]

[[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]

[[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]

[[User:Dr Scofield|Dr Scofield]]

[[User:Burhop Piccard|Burhop Piccard]]

[[User:Vicero Lambert|Vicero Lambert]]

[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]

[[User:Silicon Plunkett|Silicon Plunkett]]

[[User:Dale Innis|Dale Innis]]

[[Category:Architecture Working Group]]
[[Category:Grid_Interoperability]]
[[Category:AW Groupies]]
[[Category:MMOX]]

AW Groupies

2010-05-18T18:34:36Z

Latha Serevi: /* 2010 meetings */

=Purpose=
Serious technical discussion about Linden Lab's [[Architecture Working Group|Architecture Working Group (AWG)]]. "AW Groupies" is an unofficial, Resident-operated group, though most (all?) members also participate in the AWG.

Invite only (apply in-world to [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]), but the criterion is simple. Show up and contribute to the AWG, at [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]'s office hours, or on the Wiki, or on SL-Dev or in the [irc://irc.freenode.net/#pyogp irc channel] for the [[Pyogp/Client_Lib|Python test client]].

=Activities=
The [[AW_Groupies#Architecture_Working_Group_meetings|main AWG meeting]] is held annually or semi-annually.
We now [[AW_Groupies#In-World_Meetings|meet up to 8 times a week in-world]], counting AW Groupies meeting, Zero's office hours, Which's office hours, Enus's office hours, Whump's office hours and the [[Pyogp#In_World_Meetings|pygop daily meetings]].

Our main focus these days is on the [[Open Grid Protocol]], the [[Open_Grid_Public_Beta]] and the [[Pyogp|pyogp Python test harness]] for protocol testing.

Also members are quite active on the wiki and in the SLDEV mailing list.

A public SVN repository is open to all AW Groupies members here:
* http://openmv.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/archwg/

Contact anyone with root on openmv.org for an account if you are in the AW Groupies group in-world.

==Architecture Working Group meetings==
* [[AWG_Meeting_1|AWG I annual meeting transcript, participants' responses, etc]]
* [[AWG_Meeting_2|AWG II annual meeting transcript, video, participants' responses, etc]]

==In-World Meetings==
===AW Groupies meeting===
Weekly meeting times are:
* '''Mondays''' -------

* '''Tuesdays''' ------ 9:30 AM SLT at [http://slurl.com/secondlife/ThorneBridgeTown/156/129/25 Zha's IBM Island at ThorneBridgeTown] (weekly AWG meeting)
* ------------------ FIRST TUESDAY of the month ONLY: 1 PM SLT at [http://slurl.com/secondlife/Grasmere/171/112/27 Zero Linden's office hours at Grasmere]
* ------------------ Noon SLT [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies#OpenSim__meeting| Open Sim Meeting]

* '''Wednesdays''' -- Suspended until further notice: 1:30 PM SLT @ [http://slurl.com/secondlife/ambleside/228/244/25/?title=Whump%20Linden%27s%20Office Whump Linden's Office Hours] (main meeting for public grid open beta)

* '''Thursdays''' ----- 11 AM SLT at [http://slurl.com/secondlife/Beaumont/149/44/24 Which Linden's office hours at Beaumont] (often AWG-related these days)
* '''Fridays''' --------- 1 PM SLT [http://slurl.com/secondlife/Longfellow/99/97/28 Enus Linden's Office Hours] (starring PyOGP and [[Pyogp#Pic_of_the_Moment|a cast of several bots]])
:
Meetings are scheduled via the "[http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com SL AW Groupies" google calendar]" (though the above schedule is generally more accurate).

* [http://www.google.com/calendar/feeds/pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic XML]
* [http://www.google.com/calendar/ical/pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics ICal]
* Calendar ID: pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4@group.calendar.google.com
* [http://www.google.com/calendar/render?cid=pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com Add to your Google Calendar]

====Meeting Agendas====

Each meeting should have an agenda --- which will be distributed via
* google calendar entry
* in-world notice to the SL "AW Groupies" group
* the [[AW Groupies In-World Meeting Agenda]] wiki page

===OpenSim meeting===
* Tuesdays/Saturdays noon SLT, at Wright Plaza sim in OSGrid. [http://osgrid.org/index.php?page=home&btn=1 Registration Page]

Set [[Client_parameters|client command line options]] to:
:-loginuri http://osgrid.org:8002
:-loginpage http://osgrid.org/loginscreen.php
:-helperuri http://osgrid.org/

===Chat Logs===

Chat logs of the in-world meetings are published and accessible via the links below:

====2007 meetings====
:* September: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/2007-09-28 | 28]]
:* October: [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-01 | 1]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-05 | 5]] [[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2007_Oct_09|9 --Zero's office]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-16| 16]]
:* November: [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-06 | 6]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-13 | 13]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-20| 20]]
====2008 meetings====
:* January: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-01-08|08]]
:*February: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-02-19|19]]
:*April: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-08|08]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-22|22]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-29|29]]
:*May: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-05-20|20]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-05-27|27]]
:*June: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-03|03]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-10|10]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-17|17]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-24|24]]
:*July: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-01|01]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-08| 08]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-15|15]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-22|22]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-29|29]]
:*August: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-05|05]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-12|12]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-19|19]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-26|26]]
:* September [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-09|9]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-16|16]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-23|23]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-30|30]]
:* October [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-07|7]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-14|14]] [[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_October_14|14 --Zero's O.H.]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-28|28]]
:* November [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-11-11|11]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-11-18|18]]
:* December [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-09|9]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-16|16]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-23|23]]
====2009 meetings====
:*January [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-06|6]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-13|13]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-20|20]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-27|27]]
:*February [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-03|3]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-10|10]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-17|17]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-24|24]]
:*March [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-03-03|3]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-03-10|10]]
:*April [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-07|7]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-14|14]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-28|28]]
:*June [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-06-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-06-16|16]]
:*July [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-07-21|21]]
:*September [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-09-15|15]]
:*October [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-10-20|20]]
====2010 meetings====
:*March [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-03-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-03-09|9]]
:*April [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/JoeLindenTPVBrownbag-2010-04-13|13joe]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-04-20|20joshua]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/JoeLindenTPVBrownbag-2010-04-20|20joe]]
:*May [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-05-04|04proxies]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-05-19|18meadhbh]]
*
* [[MMOX#Chat_logs|MMOX chat logs]] -- in-world transcripts with non-SL/Opensim participants
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Grid_Interoperability_Chat_Logs All Grid Interoperability chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:AW_Groupies_Transcripts All AW Groupies chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Pyogp_Transcripts All Pyogp chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Open_Grid_Public_Beta_Transcripts All Open Grid Public Beta Transcripts]
*
* [[User:Zero_Linden#Transcripts_of_previous_office_hours|Zero Linden's Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Which_Linden|Which Linden's Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Enus_Linden| Enus Linden Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Whump_Linden| Whump Linden Office Hour Transcripts]]
*
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=chat+log OpenSim chat logs]
* [[Mono/2008-04-04 | mono beta meeting discussion of het-grid]]

(if you post chat logs, you might want to use the [[User:Dr_Scofield/logtransform|sllog2wiki perl script]] to turn them into a more readable wiki table format ready to copy & paste into the chat log page)

Chat logs of AWGroupies meetings should be summarized on the wiki.

==Viewpoint Advocacy Groups==

[[Viewpoint Advocacy Groups]] - groups to focus on specific requirements.
=== AWG-specific VAGs===

* [[Core Grid Services, Protocols, and Structures VAG]]
* [[Event Scalability VAG]]
* [[Geometry and Physics VAG]]
* [[Live Performances VAG]]
* [[Quality Assurance VAG]]
* [[Scalability VAG]]
=== AWG-related VAGs===
* [[Map_API_VAG]]
* [[Multi-Process Client VAG -- draft]]

=Work-In-Progress=

Work-in-progress wiki pages are architecture pages that are (as the name implies ;-)) work in progress. Once the group has reached consensus that a particular topic is "good-to-go" we'll graduate that page to the [[Architecture Working Group|main AWG page]].

==General Concerns==
* [[Scoping]]
* [[Architecture Working Group Glossary|Glossary]]
* [[Use Cases]]
===Open Grid Protocol (OGP)===
====Linden Pages====

====User Pages====

==Communications==
* [[Initial CAPS seed]]
* [[AWG initial flows]]
* [[AWG flows login]]

* [[Mudata]]
* [[Streamlet]]
===Documenting current protocols===
* [[Pyogp|Python test harness for OGP]]
** [[User:Which_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_May_22| Which Linden office hours 22 May 2008]]
====AWG and citizen pages====
* [[Current_login_protocols]]
* [[Current_Sim_Capabilities]]
* [[Example_protocol_code]]
* [[Hegemons_Login_Analysis#Very_simple_C.23__server]]
* [[User:Gareth_Ellison/Supergrid|Litesim grid interop]]
* [[EventQueueGet_CAP| Event Queue Get CAP]]

====Linden Lab pages====
* [[Service_Disruptions|"Satellite's Eye" view of the Second Life architecture from a service disruption POV]]
* [[Message_System_and_Capabilities]]
* [[Viewer_Authentication]]
* [[Viewer_Architecture]]
* [[Protocol]]
* [[LLSD]]
* [[Certified_HTTP_Escrow]]
* [[ImprovedInstantMessage]]
* [[Client_parameters|client command line parameters and stuff]]

====libsecondlife reference pages====
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Login Login page]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Protocol_%28network%29 Protocol page]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Category:Packets packets index]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Movement Movement]

====opensim reference pages====
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Grid_Architecture_Diagram opensim grid architecture diagram]
* [http://opensimulator.org/images/3/3c/OGS1Login_Sequence.jpg login diagram (same general sequence as current LL login)]

=== Future Protocols===
* [[Second_Life_Login_API_Strawman]]
:deprecated in favor of:
* [[Open Grid Protocol]]
** [[SLGOGP_Teleport_Strawman]]
*[[Architecture_Working_Group#Design_Documents | Ongoing next generation protocols documentation effort by Linden Lab]]

=== Possible future directions ===
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenID| OpenID A decentralized single sign-on system]
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yadis| Yardis A digital identity protocol]

==Asset Security and Trust==
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Dale_Innis/Asset_handling_in_OGP Asset Handling in OGP]
* [[Protecting content in an open grid]]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Infinity_Linden/OGP_Trust_Model OGP Trust Model]

==Scaling Issues==
* [[Brainstorming#ANALYSIS:_Region_Subdivision_as_a_scaling_method| Region Subdivision]]
* [[Brainstorming#ANALYSIS:_Scalability_through_reverse_proxies:_the_paravirtual_grid| Reverse Proxies]]
* [[AWG Scalability through per-resident subdivision of the Grid| Resident Subdivision]]
===Group IM===
* [[Message_Queue_Evaluation_Notes| Which Linden's message queue evaluation notes]]

==Other==
* [[Use_Cases#Extended_Capability_Clients|Extended Capability Clients]]

=Thinking-in-Progress=

* Have a look and contribute to the [[Brainstorming|brainstorming]] page.

* It's early days on the [[Multi-Process Client VAG -- draft]], but we would highly appreciate input to help with design choices and direction.
==Misc User Pages==
* Have an AWG idea? Don't know where in the wiki it should be indexed? Make sure that folks can find it by adding it to the [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:AW_Groupies_User_Pages AW_Groupies_User_Pages] Add: <nowiki>'[[Category:AW Groupies User Pages]]'</nowiki> to the end of your user page.

=External Resources=

Stuff of interest to or in connection with the [[AW Groupies]] or the [[Architecture Working Group]]:

* [[Developer_communication_tools|Developer Communication Tools (Linden Lab)]]
* [[SLDev|SLDev Main Page]]
* [[Open_Grid_Public_Beta]]
* [[Pyogp]] {Linden Labs/ AWG Python-based protocols testing library)
*
* [http://openmv.org/ OpenMetaverse Home]
**[http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Main_Page libsecondlife (libsl) homepage]
**[http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page opensim homepage]
**[http://openviewer.org openviewer homepage]
**[http://code.google.com/p/openmetaverse/wiki/SimianGrid SimianGrid]
*[http://www.osgrid.org OSGrid: open/non-profit OpenSim based grid]
* [http://www.realxtend.org/ realxtend homepage]
*
* [http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/22428.wss IBM PR re: AWG]

Latha's quick list of interop relevant VW sites, 3/30/2010
* http://tools.ietf.org/wg/vwrap/
* http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page
* http://openwonderland.org/
* http://www.realxtend.org/
* http://code.google.com/p/openmetaverse/wiki/SimianGrid
* http://www.opencobalt.org/
* http://www.solipsis.org/
* http://www.web3d.org/

==Second Life Viewers==
Various viewers compatible with Second Life.

::*Note: the "Derived 3rd-party clients" page includes a few non GPL viewers plus some hybrids. I'll try to come up with a better way to index this stuff. [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]
::*Yeah, that redirect of "Alternate_viewers" to "Downloads" is nuts, and the "Downloads" page itself seems to have to have a variety of things bundled together --- it needs splitting. But don't split it by license, that's precisely what I sought to eliminate in this section's re-org. It makes no sense to classify clients by license, since GPL'd clients don't necessarily have anything to do with Linden's code, just like BSD clients don't necessarily have anything to do with libomv. It does make sense to keep a list of Linden-derived clients though, since they're all more alike than not alike, and share both code and license encumbrance. [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]] 01:28, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

===Viewers based on the Linden Lab GPL code (C++)===

*[http://secondlife.com/support/downloads.php Main Second Life viewer/client]
:The main (official) Second Life viewer, produced by Linden Lab with the help of patches submitted by the community, and available for Linux, Mac and Windows.

*[[Snowglobe|Snowglobe]]

:A new version of the Second Life client in a public repository where Linden Lab permits direct committing from select community members alongside daily Linden work. There is also a new build system to keep this version continuously building when new submissions are received, with new builds available to everyone. This version will become available as an alternative Linden download alongside the main SL client, once it is sufficiently stable.

*[[Alternate_viewers|Derived 3rd-party clients]] (''currently links to a mixed "Downloads" page, to be fixed'')
:A large list of clients (not necessarily 3D) developed in the free and open-source community using GPL code from the above two official viewers.

===Viewers based on the libomv/libsl code (C#)===

* [http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/idealistviewer/ Idealist]
:IdealistViewer is a new cross-platform viewer based on the Irrlicht engine, PrimMesher, and LibOpenmetaverse. It can either use the Second Life protocols as provided by LibOpenmetaverse or the MXP protocol. Since it uses the Irrlicht engine it can simultaneously display prim/sculptie content and objects and animated meshes/avatars from a wide variety of sources such as Collada, .OBJ, DirectX, and Blitz3D files. It is not derived from the LL GPL viewer and is made available under BSD style licensing. It is designed to work with OpenSimulator but may also work with Second Life. It is written in the C# language.

* [http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/lookingglass/ LookingGlass]
:LookingGlass viewer is a modular viewer with pluggable communication and rendering engines. Initial communication plugin uses LibOpenMetaverse and the initial rendering plugin uses PrimMesher and Ogre. It is written in C# and BSD licensed. Home site at http://lookingglassviewer.org/ .

===Viewers based on other libraries (python, C, etc)===

* [[Pyogp]]
: Pyogp is an open source project between Linden Lab and the Architecture Working Group (AWG) to support testing the (Open Grid Protocol (OGP). Written in Python, Pyogp will consist initially of a client library and test functionality to enable testing OGP-enabled virtual worlds such as Second Life and compatible OpenSim implementations. These components will expand as the effort matures. Pyogp is released under the Apache v2 license.

==Mailing Lists==
* [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo List of Linden Lab mailing lists]
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sldev SLDEV] Main mailing list for SL developers
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gridnauts gridnauts] Mailing list for participants in Open Grid Public Beta
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pyogp PyOGP] Mailing List for Python-based client library and test harness for the Open Grid Protocols
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Resources#Mailing_Lists libsecondlife]
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page opensim]
* [http://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/openviewer-dev openviewer]
* [http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/vwrap/current/maillist.html VWRAP]

==IRC==
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#opensl
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#opensl-jira (real time updates of entries to jira.secondlife.com)
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#opensl-svn (updates of the the public SVN)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#opensim * irc://irc.freenode.net/#opensim-dev
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#libomv * irc://irc.efnet.net/#libomv-dev
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#openviewer * irc://irc.freenode.net/#openviewer-dev
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#realxtend (Finnish language but can handle English if needed)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#pyogp (Python test harness/pyogp Second LIfe library irc)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#gridnauts (Open Grid Public Beta irc)

==Forums==
* [http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend| realXtend google forum]

==Capabilities==

* [http://www.cap-lore.com/CapTheory/index.html Capabilities theory and practice]
* [http://wiki.erights.org/wiki/Zooko%27s_triangle Zook's Triangle index] -- short list of interesting articles about naming and capabilties
* [http://www.cs.washington.edu/homes/levy/capabook/ Capability-based Systems by Henry Levy] --online copy of 1984 book on early implementations of capabilities systems
* [http://www.erights.org/ E language home] [https://www.cypherpunks.to/erights/ E language home mirror] [http://wiki.erights.org/ E wiki] --computer language dedicated to handling distributed trust issues
** [https://www.cypherpunks.to/erights/elib/capability/index.html Capability Computation]
** irc://irc.freenode.net/#erights
** [http://www.eros-os.org/mailman/listinfo/e-lang E language mailing list]
* [http://www.eros-os.org/mailman/listinfo/cap-talk mailing list for capability systems]
* [http://mscheffler.wordpress.com/2008/01/20/diploma/ blog and thesis on caps in virtual worlds Martin Scheffler]
* [http://homepage.mac.com/kpreid/elang/den.html Cap-based MUD by Kevin Reid] --written in E
* [http://www.fudco.com/chip/lessons.html discussion of ancient (Commodore 64!) video game that used capabilities]

==Misc==

* [http://blog.signpostmarv.name/2008/07/29/non-unique-region-names-within-the-confines-of-a-single-grid-yay-or-nay/ non-unique region names within the confines of a single grid, yay or nay ?]
* [http://blog.signpostmarv.name/2008/01/04/map-api-in-new-location/ discussion of new Map API and related issues]
* [http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source Open Source Portal] --index to all things Open Source for Linden Lab

=Members=

Founder [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]

[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]

[[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]

[[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]

[[User:Dr Scofield|Dr Scofield]]

[[User:Burhop Piccard|Burhop Piccard]]

[[User:Vicero Lambert|Vicero Lambert]]

[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]

[[User:Silicon Plunkett|Silicon Plunkett]]

[[User:Dale Innis|Dale Innis]]

[[Category:Architecture Working Group]]
[[Category:Grid_Interoperability]]
[[Category:AW Groupies]]
[[Category:MMOX]]

AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2010-05-19

2010-05-18T18:25:57Z

Latha Serevi: Created page with 'Meadhbh Oh (formerly Infinity Linden) presents a talk with slides (url to be added here) on the topic of "future-proofing VWRAP". {| |- style="vertical-align:top;background-colo...'

Meadhbh Oh (formerly Infinity Linden) presents a talk with slides (url to be added here) on the topic of "future-proofing VWRAP".

{|
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|okay. so
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lemme just start
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so yeah. like latha just said
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the future... it's coming...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|we want VWRAP to be compatible with it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so this is a talk about what we're doing to try to make sure we don't specify ourselves into a corner
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Great topic, Meadhbh
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yep, very good topic
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i think the last bullet point is the most important
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|rather than try to make VWRAP "completely correct"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|let's buyild a protocol that's extensible
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|You're not super-geniuses? I'm so disappointed, think I'll leave now. :D
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|try a bunch of crazy ideas (some of which will turn out to be quite idiotic)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and abandon them quickly
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so here's the big question...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|how do we make it extensible?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|don't tell anyone
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but you can tell people we have some good ideas
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|review question: define interoperability?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|in terms of VWRAP
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Technique 1 for future proofing: "pass through and ignore" certain classes of payload.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|interoperability means interop between systems that collaborate to simulate the virtual world
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Pass thryu and ignore anything you do not recognize
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|or "a virtual experience"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and not interop between worlds
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so we're not talking about teleporting from SL to WoW or QWAQ
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Who do you mean "we"?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so nothing to do with "teleporting" between worlds?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Static Melody|Static Melody]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hello
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and converting their event streams to something that is renderable by SL
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|False. We agreed that we're doing "interop between worlds" in OGPX.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hi
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"we" being the people who chartered the VWRAP working group
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It's one deployment, or many
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Of* many
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|let's mentally edit "We are not talking about" --> "Meadhbh is talking about"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|MMOX is still the place to go to discuss ideas for inter-virtual world interop
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|/,me suggests not having this semantgic sidehosw here
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Not everyone has to do "interop between worlds", but many will.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|we're hitting the "is there one big virtual world made up of many providers or is that multiple worlds you're teleporting between?" semantic question. Does VWRAP aim to specify how you can teleport from SL to an openSim instance? I believe, "yes"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ty Joshua
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so a subset of the people in consensus reality who are thinking about a particular type of virtual world hereafter hypothetically described as "we"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|MMOX is the place for discurring interop between different types of VWs. VWRAP is the placce for discussing interop between worlds of the general model we call "SL-like".
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:55]
| colspan="2"|''Latha Serevi 's ears perk up at the MIME type topic on the slide.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And between OpenSIm instances, which may feel very "world" ish. WOrld is remakrbaly NOT a technicsal term of the art
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|have come up with some patterns for dealing with retrofitting protocols to deal with mistakes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|there are actually two on this slide, but it looks like it got formatted a little funkily
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Mead: even though this talk is not subject to VWRAP rules, you'd better stick to what we've agreed VWRAP is all about. Stop reinventing things to suit you, long after they've been agreed in the WG.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ooh, patterns.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|This brings up fond old memories of COM programming...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the first is the "service establishment pattern"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|which is the dance of authenticating yourself
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:56]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry needs an avatar umbrelling, its raining peeps''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|getting a seed pattern
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|er
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|seed capability, i mean
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rand Brune|Rand Brune]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hi all
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|then requesting child caps from the seed
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the second is the "estensible message pattern"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|or even extensible
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so let's examine the service establishment pattern first
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|note the skillful use of the term "agent domain" intended to drive zha crazy
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so...we start with a client that wants to get the URL to a resource on a remote system
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lemme advance the slide first
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|on the left you have your client
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|on the right you have your server
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the dark boxes in the middle represent sub-protocols understood by both
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [9:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the revisions refer to protocol revisions?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [9:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|if you look carefully, you'll see there's some overlap
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:00]
| colspan="2"|''Paradox Olbers is Offline''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but there's not an exact match
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|we thikn this is going to be VERY common in the future
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|cool avatar Dahlia
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ty :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lots more tinies here than usual
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|where you have a lot of people who's client's grok a revision of a protocol that's different from other clients
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and may be different from many servers
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|good premise.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so the first thing we want to do is figure out what sub protocol to use
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so the client authenticates and then basically sais
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"hey, here are the revisions of sub-protocols i understand. you cool with any of these?"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:02]
| colspan="2"|''Dennis CiscoSystems is Offline''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and then the server figures out which ones it likes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and sends back URLs for each of the ervices it likes (from the list given it by the client)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Meadhbh: do you envision the revisions are actual version numbers, "just part of the name", or both, or ...? i.e. can you reason that "teleport rev 3" is a superset of "teleport rev 2" ?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|there are probably advantages for both
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|we could identify subprotocols by number or by a distinct string
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Does this description of the pattern correspond to any particular VWRAP drafts, or is it something we'd hope to draft later?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hmm... lemme see if i can dig up the url for this presentation
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|latha. it's described in the intro and in the auth drafts
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i think the auth draft needs to be a little more explicit about it though
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but this was one of those things where we initally were saying.. "ye gads, let's not FORCE people to do it this way, just standardize a way for people to do it like this."
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|though honestly
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|we didn't really describe what we were envisioning especially well
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|quick review
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|we end up with a list of services the client and the server agree to use
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and here's the big downside
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Will the client provide a list of protocols in preference order, and then the server pick the one it can handle that's highest on the list? Or can it pick one the client doesn't like very much because the server likes it better? :-o
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|can client ask more services later on?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|viewer developers have to cope with the situation of dealing with servers that speak some other version of a protocol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lmaze. there's been some debate about that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|essentially yes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|there's debate on whether you have to reauthenticate to do it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but yeha. that's an important use case
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|like you start your morning by logging in ONLY to participate in a group chat session
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and then later on, you want to look at your inventory
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and then later on you want to go in world
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:eighthdwarf Checchinato|eighthdwarf Checchinato]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|o.0
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Not that some of this links into what JOsh was talking about (adding new functoins picking them up)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and into some of the client side caps stuff I've been describving
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|fwiw. linden's been doing this for a while
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I was just thinking that client needs service A - but if service A is not available client can also use service B - so - currently best way to handle situtation is to ask both services A and B - in case if service A is not available
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(or a version of this)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Since, effecvtively, we;'re at the point of wiring this stuff together
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|*note
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|+1 lmaze
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|maybe we should add a "preferences" field to the startup message
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|that says, "i know how to do a and b, but prefer b"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but yeah. linden's been doing this a while
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Gazanfer Jehangir|Gazanfer Jehangir]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|what guarantees the authenticity and credibilty of a service thats enables externally
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Static Melody|Static Melody]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yes, for both client and server
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but mostly when dealing with CAP based services that replicate services offered by the old UDP system
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|We also want to, as much as possible not get terribly far from web practices.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|+1 zha
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|we're not a web app
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:eighthdwarf Checchinato|eighthdwarf Checchinato]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|exactly
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but there's a lot of deployment wisdom in the way the web evolved
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|okay. lemme move on to the next pattern
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Mind you, Upgrade is honored in the breech, or I'd half suggest that.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Susan Tsuki|Susan Tsuki]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and REST is preferable to roll-your-own
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|unless peeps wanna talk more about this one?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Onwardds, very black clad Mea
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:14]
| colspan="2"|''metaPRESENTER: Thanks, You Will Receive your metaHUD shortly. Enjoy...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so here's a quick example of how you might want to enhance an API
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|in rev n, you get to associate an image URL with a description
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but in rv n+1, you want to add more info (like the location in SL where the image was captured)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|actually
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|let's look at the XML while i gab about why this is a good way to do it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Susan Tsuki|Susan Tsuki]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|excuse me, but am I the only one whose sensibilities are deeply offended byt <integer>20</integer> two dozen bytes for how many bits?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|we could have created a message with fixed length strings
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|susan. there's an app for that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|btw, usage of "key-value pairs" is basic good future-proofing practice. ++
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i'm using XML here to demonstrate a feature of the message
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|if sending a compressed XML or JSON fragment is too much overhead, there's a binary encoding that's more efficient
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|JSON is an acceptable alternative
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|or binary
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so yeah. if we had fixed length fields
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|we would have to have way different parsers for rev n and rev n+1
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Susan: if it required live marshalling/demarshalling at high rates, then yes, you'd be right to be offended on efficiency grounds. :-) But hopefully we're not going to be using this serialization for high-speed object updates, only for slow-rate command traffic across the REST interface.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:18]
| colspan="2"|''Susan Tsuki prefers JSON''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:18]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry looks for her "Veteren of the angle bracket wars" tee shirt.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:18]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry really ought to make that one up both for SL and RL.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|you really don't want to know what i prefer
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but anyway
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|we put our message in an extensible map
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Susan Tsuki|Susan Tsuki]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|xml made utf-8 pervasive and for that I am appreciative. But it's time to do better
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hwere the interesting values are key-value pairs
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|adding the new fields to the map was pretty simple
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:19]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry gently suggests fixing the web's fetsish for XML encoding is out fo scope''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|you just add a new key
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:20]
| colspan="2"|''Goldie Katsu agrees with Zha''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(you're going to hate this)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Goldie!!!!! Welcome back, stranger :-))
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|you access the values using something akin to
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|document.getElementById("title")
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:20]
| colspan="2"|''Shamir Katsu laughs''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it's not exactly the same, of course
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but the way that client libraries are being implemented
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:21]
| colspan="2"|''Goldie Katsu gives a shy wave and says "hi!"''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|:-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it's rather like accessing the element of a map
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|okay.more important things going on...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Frans Charming|Frans Charming]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|/Hi Goldie!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|if a rev n+1 message is encountered by a rev n service
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|libomv has a pretty good api for it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it will just ignore the extra bits
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|if a rev n message is encountered by a rev n+1 service,
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it's developers will probably know they're a rev n+1 implementation and will know not to freak out if the extra bits raen't thereOnline
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the main downside is you hvae to be VERY, VERY careful you don't change the semantics of messages between revisions
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That's always a chalange
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i mean no offense to my former co-workers
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Versinoing, at somep oint, you need to simply change the nameof the UI
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:24]
| colspan="2"|''Anya Silbermann is Online''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"This is not longer compatible, calling it "telepotrt" would be bad, lets calli t "teleport v2"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i am convinced that if some of them were tasked with developing a nuclear missle launch protocol, they would start with the flickr API
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well, you send the code keys as a set of flikr images
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|rught zha
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|s/rught/right/
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|then you use oauth to create a key...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yay! we don't break reverse compatibility
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so there are some more patterns
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|we've been going at it for close to an hour
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|wanna press on
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yes please, keen on MIME topic
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|mush mush
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Oh, no wait, that's Latha
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|kk
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Onwards, in any case
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hour? I did come here half hour ago... :(
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:27]
| colspan="2"|''metaPRESENTER: Thanks, You Will Receive your metaHUD shortly. Enjoy...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:27]
| colspan="2"|''metaPRESENTER: Thanks, You Will Receive your metaHUD shortly. Enjoy...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It took us half an hour to get the show under way
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|sothere are reasons people like HTTP
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|we're using two big features of HTTP
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|redirects
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|URLs
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Susan Tsuki|Susan Tsuki]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I have a question: why is a teleport even a server-to-server operation? People complain about server-to-server referrer http headers when they click hyperlinks. Why isn't teleporting strictly server-to-client-to-server?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|because we like to have the agent's avatar in exactly one place
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Susan Tsuki|Susan Tsuki]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|well I like to be in two places at the same time
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:29]
| colspan="2"|''Jennette Forager is Offline''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|well. it's sort of out of scope for VWRAP
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|alt tabbing virtual locations? :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Susan Tsuki|Susan Tsuki]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I respectfully disagree
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|having the avatar in one place doesnt seem to be something everyone would want
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Gazanfer Jehangir|Gazanfer Jehangir]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|just as i said
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Its effectivlly a transactoin between the two regoins. Adding an untrustable third party component makes it into a challange
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Gazanfer Jehangir|Gazanfer Jehangir]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|security..
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|well. actually it DOES mention the "you're in one place at a time" thing in the charter
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Muse Carmona|Muse Carmona]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|someone has an open mic
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and in the intro
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Susan: there's strict separation between agent policies and region policies. The Agent Domain is involved because it may want to refuse you permission to go to some region. If it has allowed you though, then it takes no further part in region policy decisions. So it's a mixture of both S-S and S-C-S.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Susan: that's come up in discussion before. In addition to what Meadhbh said, that might be the general-case fallback, in some cases (download all agent state and disconnect, connect and upload agent state) but that download/upload may be extensive. There are also permission checks , yadda yadda. Again, in a pure tourism mode where either everything is fully trusted or untrusted, it may not make a difference.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|we're boiling a small portion of the ocean right now
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm not sure why it's a necessity to have it in one place only
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|when it's hot, we'll loop back around and boil the multiple avatar locations part of the ocean
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(Actually the one ave at a time, many ave at a time questoin is mostly orthonoganl between whether the clienbt gets in the fance when you tp
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:31]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry waves at Goldies Dog''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|okay. let's table that discussion for the moment
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Muse Carmona|Muse Carmona]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|zha - fance?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|*dance
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Muse Carmona|Muse Carmona]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|what's that typonese for?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:31]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry cannot type tonight''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Muse Carmona|Muse Carmona]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|zha ewry doesn't know what time it is :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so... redirects
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Goldie, open mic?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|they're nice because you can move a resource from one server to another
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Whether you allow multiple aves on at once, you still end up with the trust issue if you injhect the client into a tp
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Susan Tsuki|Susan Tsuki]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm thinking about the practicalities of trying to bridge SL with cobalt, which I presume is in scope. I think we need to start with the Cobalt idea of interconnected peers.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Gazanfer Jehangir|Gazanfer Jehangir]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|also how does the server know that perhaps your account has been compromised
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Gazanfer Jehangir|Gazanfer Jehangir]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so again securuty
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|susan. that's out of scope for VWRAP
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I can see it being useful for teleporting, but there may be other times when having multiple avatars would be desirable
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Susan Tsuki|Susan Tsuki]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|why?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Muse Carmona|Muse Carmona]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|bots.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|B ecause when we tried to charter MMOX, the cmmunity blew up on the model to do so
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Muse Carmona|Muse Carmona]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|building alts, testing alts
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Susan: The charter is here: http://tools.ietf.org/wg/vwrap/charters
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Susan: it's in scope if you can create a VWRAP interface or gateway for Cobalt, regardless of what Meadhbh says. We're defining a protocol, not tellinh you how to use it.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Muse Carmona|Muse Carmona]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|in general if you don't want people to know "you're online"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|We do not deny it is an interesting scenario. It is just not our focus, which was intentionally reduced in order to make progress.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so the other bit of HTTP we like is the frequent use of URLs
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|There were about three attempts to get beyond the "LIke SL" cluster of worlds and we scoped down to what we can do
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Susan Tsuki|Susan Tsuki]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joshua: is there anything in the charter which places Cobalt out of scope?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|since we drank the REST cool-aid
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Gazanfer Jehangir|Gazanfer Jehangir]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|may i know where is the webpresence to study this protocol at leisure
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yes, "Second Life LIke"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Susan: read the charter, in light with Morgaine's comment above (which I +1)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The only requirement is being able to use the protocol, nothing else. Ie. "VWRAP-compliance".
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Susan Tsuki|Susan Tsuki]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I am looking at it. What puts Cobalt out of scope?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Susan, Meadhbh insists lots of things are out of VWRAP scope, that are clearly groupies-scope, so I try not to worry about it too much.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I often maintain simultaneous presences with the name "Dahlia Trimble" on various grids and standalone sims
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|if you remember the service establishment dance
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Cobalt-SL interop onthe level of a specific client wouldn't be impossible. You just treat incoming SL stuff as part of the external media layer which happens to be 3D objects instead of projections on a screen
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|you have a seed capability
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|likewise, you translate the cobalt internal stuff into SL scene graph info. Not true itnerop, but would "look like it"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and from that capability you get other capabilities
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|that are essentially URLs
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|that can be used to access resources that represent the state of the virtual world
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so in a stand-alone sim
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the seed cap and all the subordinate caps
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|are on the same host
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Susan Tsuki|Susan Tsuki]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha: the words "Second Life" don't appear in the charter, were you being serious?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so the URLs to them will all start with
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|http://www.whatever.com/
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hmm... bad example
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|let's just say they all point to the same machine
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|what-everrrr.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|in a private grid
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the subordinate capabilities
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(those are the caps you get from querying the seed cap)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|may point to different machines
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but they're probably going to be in the same domain
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and in a more open grid model
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|you have subordinate caps that point all over the place
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but an important thing to note here
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Susan Tsuki|Susan Tsuki]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joshua: I have read every word. Why would you say it excludes Cobalt?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it's the agent domain that gives you the subordinate cap
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joshua didn't say that, Susan. :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|kk da5id
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i'll ping the list with the URL to the goodle presentation
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|s/goodle/google/
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I would not say it excludes Cobalt. It is simply not a focus.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:40]
| colspan="2"|''Morgaine Dinova nods''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i would say it exclides Cobalt because one of cobalt's core features is that it eschews a standard wire protocol in favor of running a bit identical image on multiple hosts
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|cobalt also uses a peer-to-peer model
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If you go off and implement cobalt/opensim interop, no-one participating in the VWRAP group would say that's a bad idea. It's just that the work wouldn't necessarily fall under the charter .
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Susan Tsuki|Susan Tsuki]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Why isn't it a focus? Do you mean a focus for this talk, a focus for vwrap, or is there a focus document parallel to the charter?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Susan: VWRAP hasn't yet tackled trying to define exactly what "VWRAP-compliance" means. It's roughly "being of the SL and Opensim model", but the protocol will probably need to get filled in a lot before we can be more precise. But any world that can develope a gateway or interface to the protocol can of course us it. No exceptions.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|when we were doing croquet, we weren't worried about interop with SL
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|susan, Tapple is a member of the Cobalt development team. Why dodn't you ask him what the issues would be for Cobalt to interact with SL-like worlds in a SL-like way
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:41]
| colspan="2"|''Joshua Linden will shut up and let Meadhbh continue with the preso''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The people who got to consensus on the charter scoped a managable chunk of work (which is bigger than we are effticvely doing)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|blah blah blah. better example
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If people want to a) do work on the issues which would make it more tractable
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|we sort of think that the VWRAP "ecosystem" will look something like this
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and b) show us how it fits in and advances the swamped work load
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|then... its easy enough to make that happen
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|where you've got a couple auth servers out there
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so... can this model hold situtation where we would have multiple instances of same services - like multiple assets services (region asset service, grid assets service, client side asset service, etc... ) and multiple chats (for example special chat service for group that very active)?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ie. big ocan, chose to boil small ponds
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(maybe hosted by google, wtitter, facebook, yahoo!, etc.)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Susan Tsuki|Susan Tsuki]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Sai, I think Tapple left ?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|guess he did
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and then some more VWish service
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Those who wish to to help boil more water, are welcome to help
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:43]
| colspan="2"|''Anya Silbermann is Offline''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|THough, I sit in on the Cobalt developer meetings as the "SL-Cobalt interop guy" so...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|those are multiple services? i.e., not all controlled by the same business interests?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Muse Carmona|Muse Carmona]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Susan, from what i understand, vwrIdeally, we need an implementer interested in Cobalt to actively contribute to VWRAP, both in terms of creating an implementation and then giving constructive feedback to the group.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Susan: think of VWRAP like SMTP. SMTP doesn't say how MTAs or MUAs have to be structured. Anything that can use SMTP is perfectly fine to use the protocol. Likewise with VWRAP, and indeed with all IETF protocols.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Imaze: ideally, the client is only ever given a (mostly) opaque URL to use for a service. So if it gets the URL for a chat service, it shouldn't care if that URL points to a host that's dedicated for an ubergroup or one that's shared.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Muse Carmona|Muse Carmona]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|does that make sense?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the "VWRAP ecosystem" is (IMHO) about exposing interfaces to existing services and make them consumable by virtual worlds
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:44]
| colspan="2"|''Goldie Katsu wonders if freezing water would be more effective''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Muse Carmona|Muse Carmona]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|if someone wants to implement & contribute who is a Cobalt expert, then we can put it in scope
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Note entirely, Getting cobalt to fit into the VWRAP model woudl require a lot of new stuff
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|*not
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|sheeesh
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Muse Carmona|Muse Carmona]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|if not, it's not something we can volunteer to do
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so here's he big takeaway
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:44]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry slaps her fingers''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|("mostly" because for security reasons, pipelining, etc etc, the client may want to reason about the URL)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|we have a bunch of patterns we think will serve us wel
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|well
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|we're going to make mistakes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The scope is biased by the people who are doing the work, more people, more work, more ability to take on more work
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|did we miss MIME? My big question was waiting for that slide.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|many of us have a preference for the "fail quick and move on" model
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I second Latha's interest.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Susan Tsuki|Susan Tsuki]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|well I have a copy of cobalt on my machine, Sai is the designated SL-Cobalt interop guy, and nobody has indicated why the charter puts it out of scope or where the "focus" was decided
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hmm. yes. i think the MIME discussion was buried in there somewhere
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|as a bullet point on a single slide
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|May I have the floor for a few minutes at some point?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|sure
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|siure, Latha
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well, the grass
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'll chat-splat my issue here, it's not TOO long.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|we're rather short on floor
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|There's a future-proofing-VWRAP issue that seems pretty major that I'm struggling with.
??? It was motivated by Josh's talk on what to leave out of VWRAP.
???
??? The question is, when something is "out", how can we provide a future-friendly hook to whatever other standard or technique will be used.
???
??? Josh seemed to suggest "human-readable URL" as the basic kind of hook, but to me it's a big mistake to require a human at any point in a VWRAP interaction.
???
??? My thought is, having a URI as a placeholder for a function that we are naming-but-leaving-out, is ok, but we want to make sure that a pair of interacting entities that want to use protocol XYZ for dealing with that function, can tell each other that smoothly.
???
??? So, a pair of "URI plus content-type", or some kind of content-negotiation?
???
??? It aalso occurs to me that there could be multiple kinds of "out" -- "out but we know what its name and purpose is", and "new capability we never even heard of". We'd want to provide a smooth path for participants to negotiate an intera
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ction in both cases.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Susan, its a matter of priorities for the various people involved. The Cobalt team is trying to bring out their official 1.0 release. Interop with SL and OpenSIm is WAAAAAY low on their list of priorities
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Good question, Latha. Here's how I'd address it:
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Muse Carmona|Muse Carmona]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I need to go, everyone, RL calls. Thank you for a spirited conversation, see you soon!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha, peek on the mailing list, because I raised that about 2 weeks back after JOsh's presentation
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|likewise, most participants in VWRAP are interested in the lower hanging fruit like getting OpenSim realXtend and SL to work with VWRAP
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Let's say we deploy a hypothetical baseline VWRAP client/server. The client knows nothing about land properties (say, modifing parcel permissions) except that when you click on land it is given a tuple of ("parcel_properties_page", "text/html", "http://sim1234.yourgrid.net/someregionid/someparcelid/properties"), and that URL is an HTML page which lets you view and/or edit properties, which is enough for a generic HTML client that embeds a web client like WebKit to present that UI.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(Issues about advertisement of the service and authentical authentication need to be resolved, Zha's been thinking about that.)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|cheers, muse
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Now, let's say that this HTML UI isn't satisfactory - say, you're a power user and want to edit using either more elaborate UI or actually modify a the equivalent of the parcel's ACL file in a text editor. Both experiences could be implemented in HTML, but it may be that the service provider doesn't offer that, but does want to cater to these crowds by engineering multiple interfaces.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I can think of several ways to provide this:
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I raised during Joshua's talk whether he was advocating web screen scraping as an interop technique. I believe he said "No" (being a rational person :P). So no danger of that, Latha, I think :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(1) Treat the initial advertisement of the service availability as capability grants just like at the start of Meadhbh's presentation, and deliver: [("parcel_properties_page", "text/html", "http://sim1234.yourgrid.net/someregionid/someparcelid/properties"), ("parcel_properties_ws", "application/xml", "http://sim1234.yourgrid.net/someregionid/someparcelid/properties_web_service")] where the service is SOAP or REST or XMLRPC or whatever floats your boat. Clients that understand it can use it, clients that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|don't fall back to the HTML UI.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(I believe this is your suggestion)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(2) Use HTTP content negotiation, i.e. send an Accept header when making the properties request, e.g. "Accept: text/html, application/x-vwrap-parcel-acl" and define that MIME type as a payload. There are implications that the URL allows RESTful behavior, but I think that's reasonable.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(3) Embed the content as an "upgrade" within the HTML content, e.g. <link rel="webservice" type="application/x-vwrap-ws" href="http://sim1234.yourgrid.net/someregionid/someparcelid/ws">
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|In any of these cases, you're claiming elements within a namespace, which could be done either vendor-specific (say, Linden wants to offer a premier experience for our client on our grid, we'd use a "vnd.lindenlab." prefix or something), or in a neutral way with the eventual goal of registering with IANA. VWRAP RFCs for this can ask IANA to establish registries for this sort of field.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Some of these are very Web-like, others less so. Your suggest of URI+content-type is a good one. I prefer #1 myself, which aligns best with the other common VWRAP patterns Meadhbh was discussing.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|or you could even do a redirect based on the user agent
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:49]
| colspan="2"|''Imaze Rhiano wonders how Joshua manages to write so fast...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Can you guess that I prompted Josh earlier? :-o
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|redirecting web clients to a HTML page
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but that's ugly
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Note that there are really about three issues
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i agree.. i like #1 too
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Susan Tsuki|Susan Tsuki]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Sai: you better claim the elements you want in the namespace early or compatibility will be much harder later
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Actually, I mangled the #1 a bit as a result of editing...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but that may simply be that we used to be co-workers
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It's probably a map from name to tuple of type/URL
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ROughly, how to cue
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Perhaps this is a good opportunity to lay the dragon to rest (again). Joshua: you're not advocating web page scraping as an interface technique, right?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|how to let servers help to UI, and how to let servers expose structured apis which are optional
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but honestly, we could try a couple different things
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|{ "parcel_properties": [("text/html", "http://blahblah"), ("text/xml", "...")]} - but done LLSD-style
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine: of course not! Well, people will do crazy stuff...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I thought of this scenario:
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joshua: :DDDDD
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|RIght, screen scrpaing HTML is painful to evben think about
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:51]
| colspan="2"|''Aurora Kitaj is Offline''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|at the same time
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Susan.. 1) Smalltalk doesn't really have namespaces. 2) Croquet is designed in such a different way than VWRAP-ish worlds that "interop" really can't mean what it means for interop between OpenSim and SL
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Say I'm using VWRAP implementation pieces to implement a kid-friendly VW (and don't even care about interop)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i think the take-away from josh's talk is "not everything in the client will be standardized in VWRAP"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Making the client do a UI when the server can
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|is also painful. (ie only an API, with no way to allow the sevrer to host a UI)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I might make "parcel properties" UI in HTML as a set of your friend's avatar icons with checkboxes. Totally custom UI.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Susan Tsuki|Susan Tsuki]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|namespace:protocol::dictionary:smalltalk
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And I have no desire to expose a data API for it.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|at the best, you could "fake it" so that it would look like interop but it would require all sorts of translation mechanismis
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|IMHO, that would be possible with what we're discussing.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|you could build your HTML UI
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so there's some sort of data UI hidden behind it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Susan Tsuki|Susan Tsuki]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"fake it"+marketing department="compatibility layer"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Now, some crazy person might want to screen-scrape that, but that's outside the scenario the VWRAP WG or the service provider are designing for
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Susan, sure, but its a very THICK layer in this case
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:53]
| colspan="2"|''Susan Tsuki is not so sure''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I am not putting MY name on a screen scarping HTML designn ;)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Josh, I'm with you on the kid VW. But if Kid VW version 2 decides to provide the data API after all, we want them to know that they can add a content-type...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|+1 Zha
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I would prefer that people do expose data APIs for things, but IMHO VWRAP shouldn't mandate that or be blocked until we have defined all of those APIs
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|+1 Joshua
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so let's not do HTML screen scraping for things that are core
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and.. I think our repsonsibility ends at the
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"here is the mechanism"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha: agreed, so we need to define that mechanism. +1 Zha
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"you go define the specific services you need"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Susan SL and other worlds with a hope of being VWRAP compatible directly, use a data distribution method. Cobalt sends smalltalk object messages
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|We cue you the service is around
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ack! i have to leave soonish
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|we provide both UI (webish) hooks and API (Service hooks) in a nice way, and if people biuld stuff out, we're done
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(and there is, al lurking how it ties to the scenegraph questoin, since this stuff all is part of th VW expeience)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i'm going to run off and dig up the URL to this presentation and email it to sldev and vwrap@ietf.org
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks, Meadhbh
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|cheers folks
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Perplexity Peccable|Perplexity Peccable]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|thanks!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks Mea
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Susan Tsuki|Susan Tsuki]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|what does "kid friendly" mean? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19665229
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks Meadhbh
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|do we want to do follow-on conversations in vwrap@ietf.org
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:eighthdwarf Checchinato|eighthdwarf Checchinato]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thank you very much Meadhbh
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i think there are plenty of good ideas floating around
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yes, on vwrap
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but if so, keep in mind, its NOTEWELL land
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Frans Charming|Frans Charming]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks Meadhbh
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|cheers! ttfn!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|thanks Meadhbh
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|there's bound to be side conversations in Groupies as well
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks, Josh, I'm reassured that my question makes sense and the kind of extensibility I seek is a priority. (i.e. ability for a pair of participants to negotiate a different MIME type or something similar, to perform an interaction via some other standard they agree on).
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|/.me notes well, the notewell http://www.ietf.org/about/note-well.html for people talking on the vWRAP mailing list
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:56]
| colspan="2"|''Tara Yeats is Offline''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha: yep, totally.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|umm... so does this allow me to develope client side assets servers? :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|For those of us talking here, the note is "Saij will post transcripts" (Complete with my typos)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Imaze: I touch on that in my "not in vwrap" preso, actually...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think one thing that didn't quite get handled as Latha may have wished was the very concrete topic of MIME types as data format descriptors. Since data types are going to be an evolving area, clearly there needs to be a way of handling types that one has not seen before.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Imaze once the client gets a way of requesting new services that don't involve asking the login server or region server directly
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|okay.....
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Imaze: IMHO, what needs to be standardized is "rez" and "derez"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|rez/derez and cues that other services exist
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If that's a 3-way dance between "asset source", "region" and "client", then assuming the right trusts are established, "asset source" could be associated with your account (as it is today on SL), associated with the world as a whole (kinda like SL's library, abstractly), or...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|some third party, some local filesystem, group properties, etc. anything that would be an "asset source"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:59]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry notes this iwhy its a URI ;)''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Maybe you're passing around data blobs, maybe just URIs (both URLs and URNs).
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Susan Tsuki|Susan Tsuki]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joshua: just because the asset source, regions, and client are all the same process doesn't mean it's excluded in any way
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Imaze: since an asset service can be ANYWHERE, that makes client-side asset services possible without VWRAP needing to address the case at all.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|to me asset server is a subset of "service" in general, which might include IRC rooms, private whiteboards, and who knows what else
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:00]
| colspan="2"|''Agent Heliosense is Offline''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Susan Tsuki|Susan Tsuki]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and I think the compatibility layer is not very hard
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Susan: are you speaking vis-a-vis Cobalt and VWRAP?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Susan Tsuki|Susan Tsuki]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yes, Sai
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|There are a many things that aren't hard. Again, it's simply not a focus
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|master Sai
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If you want to work on it, go for it.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And, again, if people work on it, and work on how it fits into the existing work, that's a way to get it into scope
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Susan Tsuki|Susan Tsuki]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I want to talk about it without being told it's not a focus. Because I am focusing on it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|susan, for Cobalt-SL interop,. you need a layer that can translate SL-specific prim info into smalltalk object messages and translate smalltalk object messages into SL compatible data
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|doable, but not exactly straightforward
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well, Susan, that means on the VWRAP mailing list, with some discussion on how it fits into the vague frameowkr that's there
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|well people are working on protocols, hopefully there will be a useful intersection :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Susan: join us on the VWRAP mailing list and you can make it a focus, particularly if it gains general interest. There's many shades of interest on the list :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Susan Tsuki|Susan Tsuki]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Sai: it's more than that, if you want to host SL clients on Cobalt at the same time that the Cobalt process is logged is as an avi to one or more SL servers
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Susan, Croquet hax is the project lead for Cobalt (John Dougan). He generally defers to me when questions about SL-Cobalt interop come up
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Oh, that's groovy. I thought you were advocating that the VWRAP WG should spend time on that at higher priority than the chartered work. Don't let me tell you what to do or not!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And, if we see lots of work
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and it gets to "hey, we have a consensus to add it in"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Susan Tsuki|Susan Tsuki]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joshua: I am not a member of the WG
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|then.. that's very straight forward in the IETF
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Anyone who participates on the mailing list is a member of the WG
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|to be one, just start posting
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(no secret handshakes)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|+1 Joshua
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Susan Tsuki|Susan Tsuki]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|before I would assent to that, I want to find out whether the focus is being determined by those with a vested interest in outcomes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:04]
| colspan="2"|''Goldie Katsu pouts. She was hoping for a secret handshake.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That's always the case, Susan
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:04]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry makes the secret gesture behind Josh''s back''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(there's a double-secret handshake)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The IETF is pretty open
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|oooOO double super secret :D
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The charter is a stake in the ground about what people have expressed interest in
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The outcome, is specs
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Susan Tsuki|Susan Tsuki]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Sai: do you think the VWRAP WG would be actively hostile to Cobalt interoperability developers?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And general consensus
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Seeing how I'm interested in that myself and Im the AWG denmother, I don't think its an issue
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and hopefully they reflect what people want to use
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|They have to reflect working code, so thsat helps, Dahlia, but yes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Susan: I think the biggest issue you'll run into is that VWRAP is a theory at this point. There are bits like the type system, capabilities, and event queue that are implemented today by SL, OpenSim and LibOMV...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Susan Tsuki|Susan Tsuki]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I hope not, but I wonder how much persuasion people can stand. Eventually people trying to shout others down in their own interest will have an affect
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|We're prety polite
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Susan: if you're not familiaar with IETF processes, as I wasn't, there's a whole strong mindset and lore associated with it, and VWRAP is subject to those constraints.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But beyond that it's theory, not practice, so the most that could be provided is theoretical discussion
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Susan, are you pareticipating in the Cobalt developers group? Its on skype. Ask John Dougan/Croquet Hax for an invite
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Susan Tsuki|Susan Tsuki]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks, Sai
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the developers skype meeting is tomorrow and there's conversations all the time on the skype room
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Susan Tsuki|Susan Tsuki]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I am advising a university development team trying to decide between OpenSim and Cobalt
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hey, one more follow-on question on my extensibility topic?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Josh et al, perhaps there's one other part of my question that I didn't see answered: is there a catch-all way to define entirely new interactions to be negotiated between participants? (not the anticipated "parcel properties editor", but a surprise "mind-meld v7 data stream for inter-world coordination"). What might the negotiation look like / what's the catch-all bucket called?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha, I think that falls under Zha's proposed client services request protocol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:eighthdwarf Checchinato|eighthdwarf Checchinato]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|be well everyone, I wish you a good day :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|by 8D
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|*bye 8D
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Susan - I would choose Opensim - Cobalt is interesting but it's protocol is bit untested and depends highly on platform (IMHO)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think it falls in that neck of the woods
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|FWIW, I don't see a reason that either a VWRAP service couldn't expose itself as a Cobalt peer, or that a Cobalt peer couldn't expose VWRAP region services. That sort of "protocol gateway" approach was talked about a bit on MMOX. The Forterra dude (John Watte?) was a big advocate of that approach, if I'm recalling correctly
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I need to poof off to another meeting myself... bye all :D
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|There are som funny constraints which get you into HAL/DIS land, but I agree Josh
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joshua, sure, but you'd need a smalltalk thingie (VM/interpreter/translator) in the mix at some point
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha: I believe that falls into the space Zha's been thinking about - how a client even becomes aware that one of these services exists.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Susan Tsuki|Susan Tsuki]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joshua: agreed; how about a Cobalt peer acting as a VRAP client and server simultaniously?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I don't see why not, up to a point, Susan
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Susan: you could slice it that way.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The tricky bits are where you bend the "Here is the long term stabel URI for this bit of land"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Susan Tsuki|Susan Tsuki]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|nothing is forever
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks, I'll keep an eye out for "client services request" part of the protocol.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:10]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry laughs''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well, no, but cnn.com is pretty stable
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|more so, thsan the typical cobalt/croquet region
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|There are some spots like that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|which would need some love
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|None of it beyond reasonable discussion
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Susan Tsuki|Susan Tsuki]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Imaze: they are developers looking to improve things, not users in the general sense
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|right now, they're workign on a renderingless persistent client that could be hosted on a normal server. Biasically it simply doesn't draw anything directly (it eats the rendering commands
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:12]
| colspan="2"|''Joshua Linden is gonna run, toodles all!''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but y ou gotta understand that every Cobalt client is expected to "process" every cobalt message. The headless server still generates the drawing commands and forwards them to the distribution server, which actually sends them back tot he non-rendering server which then ignores them
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Toodles, Josh :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|from academic standpoint - Cobalt might be more untraditional and offer more interesting cases for scintific studies
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks Josh
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Susan Tsuki|Susan Tsuki]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Sai: I wonder if a boolean headless in the distribution list would help
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|SO.. We're past our usual 11:00cut of, but people are welcome to keep talking
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Don't thin so. The way TeaTime works, the originating client (server) doesn't process the messages until they come back from the distributor (forget its name)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:15]
| colspan="2"|''Aurora Kitaj is Offline''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Susan Tsuki|Susan Tsuki]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Sai, thanks very much for the contact names. Zha, thank you too, and Imaze, and everyone with good advice
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:15]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry keeps wanting the tea time distributor to be Troley''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Sai, shall I post the transcript? and was there a slides URL yet?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Trolly
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|sheesh
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I actually find our preoccupation with world similarity or differences as rather funny. One thing I can guarantee even without a crystal ball: the worlds ahead will be nothing like what we imagine currently. And they'll either use extensions of current protocols like VWRAP, or these protocol will become 100% obsolete.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|you'd have to make sure that rendering and non-rendering info was perfectly separate before you could decide to NOT send a rendering message
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Susan Tsuki|Susan Tsuki]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine, maybe someone will fork VWRAP to use Google Checkout instead of L$s
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Sai: "space cadet"? <grin> Not aware of that metaphor :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I pretty much define it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Susan: odder things have happened :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Not that VWRAP deals with L$ of course
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Susan Tsuki|Susan Tsuki]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm pretty glad they support JSON in http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hamrick-llsd-00 -- I knew I was in for in when I got told that was off topic....
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the most vwrap is likely to do, is allow a "Money here" slot in some messages, and allow people to stuff in what they define
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Goldie Katsu|Goldie Katsu]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|or QQ currency?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Slot in what you will
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|vwrap ends where we say
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"You can include payment info here"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Coloured beads. VWRAP must support coloured bead currency. ;-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Goldie Katsu|Goldie Katsu]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(Tencent QQ, not QQ as complaint)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Wampum!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|http://www.opencroquet.org/index.php/System_Overview
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I believe the term I'm looking for is Croquet Router
|}

AW Groupies

2010-05-18T18:24:11Z

Latha Serevi: /* 2010 meetings */

=Purpose=
Serious technical discussion about Linden Lab's [[Architecture Working Group|Architecture Working Group (AWG)]]. "AW Groupies" is an unofficial, Resident-operated group, though most (all?) members also participate in the AWG.

Invite only (apply in-world to [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]), but the criterion is simple. Show up and contribute to the AWG, at [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]'s office hours, or on the Wiki, or on SL-Dev or in the [irc://irc.freenode.net/#pyogp irc channel] for the [[Pyogp/Client_Lib|Python test client]].

=Activities=
The [[AW_Groupies#Architecture_Working_Group_meetings|main AWG meeting]] is held annually or semi-annually.
We now [[AW_Groupies#In-World_Meetings|meet up to 8 times a week in-world]], counting AW Groupies meeting, Zero's office hours, Which's office hours, Enus's office hours, Whump's office hours and the [[Pyogp#In_World_Meetings|pygop daily meetings]].

Our main focus these days is on the [[Open Grid Protocol]], the [[Open_Grid_Public_Beta]] and the [[Pyogp|pyogp Python test harness]] for protocol testing.

Also members are quite active on the wiki and in the SLDEV mailing list.

A public SVN repository is open to all AW Groupies members here:
* http://openmv.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/archwg/

Contact anyone with root on openmv.org for an account if you are in the AW Groupies group in-world.

==Architecture Working Group meetings==
* [[AWG_Meeting_1|AWG I annual meeting transcript, participants' responses, etc]]
* [[AWG_Meeting_2|AWG II annual meeting transcript, video, participants' responses, etc]]

==In-World Meetings==
===AW Groupies meeting===
Weekly meeting times are:
* '''Mondays''' -------

* '''Tuesdays''' ------ 9:30 AM SLT at [http://slurl.com/secondlife/ThorneBridgeTown/156/129/25 Zha's IBM Island at ThorneBridgeTown] (weekly AWG meeting)
* ------------------ FIRST TUESDAY of the month ONLY: 1 PM SLT at [http://slurl.com/secondlife/Grasmere/171/112/27 Zero Linden's office hours at Grasmere]
* ------------------ Noon SLT [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies#OpenSim__meeting| Open Sim Meeting]

* '''Wednesdays''' -- Suspended until further notice: 1:30 PM SLT @ [http://slurl.com/secondlife/ambleside/228/244/25/?title=Whump%20Linden%27s%20Office Whump Linden's Office Hours] (main meeting for public grid open beta)

* '''Thursdays''' ----- 11 AM SLT at [http://slurl.com/secondlife/Beaumont/149/44/24 Which Linden's office hours at Beaumont] (often AWG-related these days)
* '''Fridays''' --------- 1 PM SLT [http://slurl.com/secondlife/Longfellow/99/97/28 Enus Linden's Office Hours] (starring PyOGP and [[Pyogp#Pic_of_the_Moment|a cast of several bots]])
:
Meetings are scheduled via the "[http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com SL AW Groupies" google calendar]" (though the above schedule is generally more accurate).

* [http://www.google.com/calendar/feeds/pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic XML]
* [http://www.google.com/calendar/ical/pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics ICal]
* Calendar ID: pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4@group.calendar.google.com
* [http://www.google.com/calendar/render?cid=pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com Add to your Google Calendar]

====Meeting Agendas====

Each meeting should have an agenda --- which will be distributed via
* google calendar entry
* in-world notice to the SL "AW Groupies" group
* the [[AW Groupies In-World Meeting Agenda]] wiki page

===OpenSim meeting===
* Tuesdays/Saturdays noon SLT, at Wright Plaza sim in OSGrid. [http://osgrid.org/index.php?page=home&btn=1 Registration Page]

Set [[Client_parameters|client command line options]] to:
:-loginuri http://osgrid.org:8002
:-loginpage http://osgrid.org/loginscreen.php
:-helperuri http://osgrid.org/

===Chat Logs===

Chat logs of the in-world meetings are published and accessible via the links below:

====2007 meetings====
:* September: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/2007-09-28 | 28]]
:* October: [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-01 | 1]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-05 | 5]] [[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2007_Oct_09|9 --Zero's office]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-16| 16]]
:* November: [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-06 | 6]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-13 | 13]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-20| 20]]
====2008 meetings====
:* January: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-01-08|08]]
:*February: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-02-19|19]]
:*April: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-08|08]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-22|22]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-29|29]]
:*May: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-05-20|20]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-05-27|27]]
:*June: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-03|03]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-10|10]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-17|17]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-24|24]]
:*July: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-01|01]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-08| 08]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-15|15]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-22|22]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-29|29]]
:*August: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-05|05]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-12|12]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-19|19]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-26|26]]
:* September [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-09|9]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-16|16]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-23|23]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-30|30]]
:* October [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-07|7]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-14|14]] [[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_October_14|14 --Zero's O.H.]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-28|28]]
:* November [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-11-11|11]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-11-18|18]]
:* December [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-09|9]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-16|16]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-23|23]]
====2009 meetings====
:*January [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-06|6]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-13|13]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-20|20]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-27|27]]
:*February [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-03|3]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-10|10]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-17|17]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-24|24]]
:*March [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-03-03|3]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-03-10|10]]
:*April [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-07|7]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-14|14]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-28|28]]
:*June [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-06-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-06-16|16]]
:*July [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-07-21|21]]
:*September [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-09-15|15]]
:*October [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-10-20|20]]
====2010 meetings====
:*March [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-03-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-03-09|9]]
:*April [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/JoeLindenTPVBrownbag-2010-04-13|13joe]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-04-20|20joshua]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/JoeLindenTPVBrownbag-2010-04-20|20joe]]
:*May [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-05-04|04proxies]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-05-19|19meadhbh]]
*
* [[MMOX#Chat_logs|MMOX chat logs]] -- in-world transcripts with non-SL/Opensim participants
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Grid_Interoperability_Chat_Logs All Grid Interoperability chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:AW_Groupies_Transcripts All AW Groupies chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Pyogp_Transcripts All Pyogp chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Open_Grid_Public_Beta_Transcripts All Open Grid Public Beta Transcripts]
*
* [[User:Zero_Linden#Transcripts_of_previous_office_hours|Zero Linden's Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Which_Linden|Which Linden's Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Enus_Linden| Enus Linden Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Whump_Linden| Whump Linden Office Hour Transcripts]]
*
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=chat+log OpenSim chat logs]
* [[Mono/2008-04-04 | mono beta meeting discussion of het-grid]]

(if you post chat logs, you might want to use the [[User:Dr_Scofield/logtransform|sllog2wiki perl script]] to turn them into a more readable wiki table format ready to copy & paste into the chat log page)

Chat logs of AWGroupies meetings should be summarized on the wiki.

==Viewpoint Advocacy Groups==

[[Viewpoint Advocacy Groups]] - groups to focus on specific requirements.
=== AWG-specific VAGs===

* [[Core Grid Services, Protocols, and Structures VAG]]
* [[Event Scalability VAG]]
* [[Geometry and Physics VAG]]
* [[Live Performances VAG]]
* [[Quality Assurance VAG]]
* [[Scalability VAG]]
=== AWG-related VAGs===
* [[Map_API_VAG]]
* [[Multi-Process Client VAG -- draft]]

=Work-In-Progress=

Work-in-progress wiki pages are architecture pages that are (as the name implies ;-)) work in progress. Once the group has reached consensus that a particular topic is "good-to-go" we'll graduate that page to the [[Architecture Working Group|main AWG page]].

==General Concerns==
* [[Scoping]]
* [[Architecture Working Group Glossary|Glossary]]
* [[Use Cases]]
===Open Grid Protocol (OGP)===
====Linden Pages====

====User Pages====

==Communications==
* [[Initial CAPS seed]]
* [[AWG initial flows]]
* [[AWG flows login]]

* [[Mudata]]
* [[Streamlet]]
===Documenting current protocols===
* [[Pyogp|Python test harness for OGP]]
** [[User:Which_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_May_22| Which Linden office hours 22 May 2008]]
====AWG and citizen pages====
* [[Current_login_protocols]]
* [[Current_Sim_Capabilities]]
* [[Example_protocol_code]]
* [[Hegemons_Login_Analysis#Very_simple_C.23__server]]
* [[User:Gareth_Ellison/Supergrid|Litesim grid interop]]
* [[EventQueueGet_CAP| Event Queue Get CAP]]

====Linden Lab pages====
* [[Service_Disruptions|"Satellite's Eye" view of the Second Life architecture from a service disruption POV]]
* [[Message_System_and_Capabilities]]
* [[Viewer_Authentication]]
* [[Viewer_Architecture]]
* [[Protocol]]
* [[LLSD]]
* [[Certified_HTTP_Escrow]]
* [[ImprovedInstantMessage]]
* [[Client_parameters|client command line parameters and stuff]]

====libsecondlife reference pages====
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Login Login page]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Protocol_%28network%29 Protocol page]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Category:Packets packets index]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Movement Movement]

====opensim reference pages====
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Grid_Architecture_Diagram opensim grid architecture diagram]
* [http://opensimulator.org/images/3/3c/OGS1Login_Sequence.jpg login diagram (same general sequence as current LL login)]

=== Future Protocols===
* [[Second_Life_Login_API_Strawman]]
:deprecated in favor of:
* [[Open Grid Protocol]]
** [[SLGOGP_Teleport_Strawman]]
*[[Architecture_Working_Group#Design_Documents | Ongoing next generation protocols documentation effort by Linden Lab]]

=== Possible future directions ===
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenID| OpenID A decentralized single sign-on system]
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yadis| Yardis A digital identity protocol]

==Asset Security and Trust==
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Dale_Innis/Asset_handling_in_OGP Asset Handling in OGP]
* [[Protecting content in an open grid]]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Infinity_Linden/OGP_Trust_Model OGP Trust Model]

==Scaling Issues==
* [[Brainstorming#ANALYSIS:_Region_Subdivision_as_a_scaling_method| Region Subdivision]]
* [[Brainstorming#ANALYSIS:_Scalability_through_reverse_proxies:_the_paravirtual_grid| Reverse Proxies]]
* [[AWG Scalability through per-resident subdivision of the Grid| Resident Subdivision]]
===Group IM===
* [[Message_Queue_Evaluation_Notes| Which Linden's message queue evaluation notes]]

==Other==
* [[Use_Cases#Extended_Capability_Clients|Extended Capability Clients]]

=Thinking-in-Progress=

* Have a look and contribute to the [[Brainstorming|brainstorming]] page.

* It's early days on the [[Multi-Process Client VAG -- draft]], but we would highly appreciate input to help with design choices and direction.
==Misc User Pages==
* Have an AWG idea? Don't know where in the wiki it should be indexed? Make sure that folks can find it by adding it to the [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:AW_Groupies_User_Pages AW_Groupies_User_Pages] Add: <nowiki>'[[Category:AW Groupies User Pages]]'</nowiki> to the end of your user page.

=External Resources=

Stuff of interest to or in connection with the [[AW Groupies]] or the [[Architecture Working Group]]:

* [[Developer_communication_tools|Developer Communication Tools (Linden Lab)]]
* [[SLDev|SLDev Main Page]]
* [[Open_Grid_Public_Beta]]
* [[Pyogp]] {Linden Labs/ AWG Python-based protocols testing library)
*
* [http://openmv.org/ OpenMetaverse Home]
**[http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Main_Page libsecondlife (libsl) homepage]
**[http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page opensim homepage]
**[http://openviewer.org openviewer homepage]
**[http://code.google.com/p/openmetaverse/wiki/SimianGrid SimianGrid]
*[http://www.osgrid.org OSGrid: open/non-profit OpenSim based grid]
* [http://www.realxtend.org/ realxtend homepage]
*
* [http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/22428.wss IBM PR re: AWG]

Latha's quick list of interop relevant VW sites, 3/30/2010
* http://tools.ietf.org/wg/vwrap/
* http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page
* http://openwonderland.org/
* http://www.realxtend.org/
* http://code.google.com/p/openmetaverse/wiki/SimianGrid
* http://www.opencobalt.org/
* http://www.solipsis.org/
* http://www.web3d.org/

==Second Life Viewers==
Various viewers compatible with Second Life.

::*Note: the "Derived 3rd-party clients" page includes a few non GPL viewers plus some hybrids. I'll try to come up with a better way to index this stuff. [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]
::*Yeah, that redirect of "Alternate_viewers" to "Downloads" is nuts, and the "Downloads" page itself seems to have to have a variety of things bundled together --- it needs splitting. But don't split it by license, that's precisely what I sought to eliminate in this section's re-org. It makes no sense to classify clients by license, since GPL'd clients don't necessarily have anything to do with Linden's code, just like BSD clients don't necessarily have anything to do with libomv. It does make sense to keep a list of Linden-derived clients though, since they're all more alike than not alike, and share both code and license encumbrance. [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]] 01:28, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

===Viewers based on the Linden Lab GPL code (C++)===

*[http://secondlife.com/support/downloads.php Main Second Life viewer/client]
:The main (official) Second Life viewer, produced by Linden Lab with the help of patches submitted by the community, and available for Linux, Mac and Windows.

*[[Snowglobe|Snowglobe]]

:A new version of the Second Life client in a public repository where Linden Lab permits direct committing from select community members alongside daily Linden work. There is also a new build system to keep this version continuously building when new submissions are received, with new builds available to everyone. This version will become available as an alternative Linden download alongside the main SL client, once it is sufficiently stable.

*[[Alternate_viewers|Derived 3rd-party clients]] (''currently links to a mixed "Downloads" page, to be fixed'')
:A large list of clients (not necessarily 3D) developed in the free and open-source community using GPL code from the above two official viewers.

===Viewers based on the libomv/libsl code (C#)===

* [http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/idealistviewer/ Idealist]
:IdealistViewer is a new cross-platform viewer based on the Irrlicht engine, PrimMesher, and LibOpenmetaverse. It can either use the Second Life protocols as provided by LibOpenmetaverse or the MXP protocol. Since it uses the Irrlicht engine it can simultaneously display prim/sculptie content and objects and animated meshes/avatars from a wide variety of sources such as Collada, .OBJ, DirectX, and Blitz3D files. It is not derived from the LL GPL viewer and is made available under BSD style licensing. It is designed to work with OpenSimulator but may also work with Second Life. It is written in the C# language.

* [http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/lookingglass/ LookingGlass]
:LookingGlass viewer is a modular viewer with pluggable communication and rendering engines. Initial communication plugin uses LibOpenMetaverse and the initial rendering plugin uses PrimMesher and Ogre. It is written in C# and BSD licensed. Home site at http://lookingglassviewer.org/ .

===Viewers based on other libraries (python, C, etc)===

* [[Pyogp]]
: Pyogp is an open source project between Linden Lab and the Architecture Working Group (AWG) to support testing the (Open Grid Protocol (OGP). Written in Python, Pyogp will consist initially of a client library and test functionality to enable testing OGP-enabled virtual worlds such as Second Life and compatible OpenSim implementations. These components will expand as the effort matures. Pyogp is released under the Apache v2 license.

==Mailing Lists==
* [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo List of Linden Lab mailing lists]
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sldev SLDEV] Main mailing list for SL developers
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gridnauts gridnauts] Mailing list for participants in Open Grid Public Beta
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pyogp PyOGP] Mailing List for Python-based client library and test harness for the Open Grid Protocols
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Resources#Mailing_Lists libsecondlife]
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page opensim]
* [http://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/openviewer-dev openviewer]
* [http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/vwrap/current/maillist.html VWRAP]

==IRC==
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#opensl
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#opensl-jira (real time updates of entries to jira.secondlife.com)
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#opensl-svn (updates of the the public SVN)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#opensim * irc://irc.freenode.net/#opensim-dev
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#libomv * irc://irc.efnet.net/#libomv-dev
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#openviewer * irc://irc.freenode.net/#openviewer-dev
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#realxtend (Finnish language but can handle English if needed)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#pyogp (Python test harness/pyogp Second LIfe library irc)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#gridnauts (Open Grid Public Beta irc)

==Forums==
* [http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend| realXtend google forum]

==Capabilities==

* [http://www.cap-lore.com/CapTheory/index.html Capabilities theory and practice]
* [http://wiki.erights.org/wiki/Zooko%27s_triangle Zook's Triangle index] -- short list of interesting articles about naming and capabilties
* [http://www.cs.washington.edu/homes/levy/capabook/ Capability-based Systems by Henry Levy] --online copy of 1984 book on early implementations of capabilities systems
* [http://www.erights.org/ E language home] [https://www.cypherpunks.to/erights/ E language home mirror] [http://wiki.erights.org/ E wiki] --computer language dedicated to handling distributed trust issues
** [https://www.cypherpunks.to/erights/elib/capability/index.html Capability Computation]
** irc://irc.freenode.net/#erights
** [http://www.eros-os.org/mailman/listinfo/e-lang E language mailing list]
* [http://www.eros-os.org/mailman/listinfo/cap-talk mailing list for capability systems]
* [http://mscheffler.wordpress.com/2008/01/20/diploma/ blog and thesis on caps in virtual worlds Martin Scheffler]
* [http://homepage.mac.com/kpreid/elang/den.html Cap-based MUD by Kevin Reid] --written in E
* [http://www.fudco.com/chip/lessons.html discussion of ancient (Commodore 64!) video game that used capabilities]

==Misc==

* [http://blog.signpostmarv.name/2008/07/29/non-unique-region-names-within-the-confines-of-a-single-grid-yay-or-nay/ non-unique region names within the confines of a single grid, yay or nay ?]
* [http://blog.signpostmarv.name/2008/01/04/map-api-in-new-location/ discussion of new Map API and related issues]
* [http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source Open Source Portal] --index to all things Open Source for Linden Lab

=Members=

Founder [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]

[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]

[[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]

[[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]

[[User:Dr Scofield|Dr Scofield]]

[[User:Burhop Piccard|Burhop Piccard]]

[[User:Vicero Lambert|Vicero Lambert]]

[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]

[[User:Silicon Plunkett|Silicon Plunkett]]

[[User:Dale Innis|Dale Innis]]

[[Category:Architecture Working Group]]
[[Category:Grid_Interoperability]]
[[Category:AW Groupies]]
[[Category:MMOX]]

AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2010-05-04

2010-05-04T18:23:34Z

Latha Serevi:

{|
Text chat transcript from Groupies meeting.

Latha Serevi hosted the discussion on "proxy-based interop".

Her intro is at [09:41].

|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [08:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yawn, stretch. Will get coffee and check the agenda page. Am logged in via Par + SG2 in keeping with the theme.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [08:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|'Morning
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [08:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yo
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [08:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Roland Riddler|Roland Riddler]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|heyas
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [08:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hiya Roland
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [08:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hi Latha, Sai
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [08:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Did you read my expanded agenda page, Latha?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [08:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Just did, yes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [08:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I like the proxies (in fact I'm using one right now from InWorldz), but it's an unwieldy solution in its normal guise. I think it needs the architectural improvement I suggested on the page.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [08:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hey Ms O
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [08:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|heya sai
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [08:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|are we meeting this mornnig?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [08:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|far as I know
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [08:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|did zha announce an agenda?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [08:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|BTW, lots of experimentation with IRC/Jabber bridges in group chat. You've been notified
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [08:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yup, we have an agenda, basically Latha's day today
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [08:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|coolies. lisa/roo should be notified as well.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [08:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|last i heard, i was going to present on extensibility in vwrap
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [08:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Not heard of that. Maybe Zha's trying to cram both in, doesn't seem like a good idea though, they're each big topics.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [08:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ah. okay. guess my talk was canceled
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [08:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Oh, sorry, Meadhbh, I wonder if Zha and I got our signals crossed?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [08:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Maybe "next week's" meant something different to each of us.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [08:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i put my talk on the schedule two weeks ago afte josh's talk
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Meadhbh, sorry, had no idea there was a conflict. Given that we've been relaying IRC and Jabber like maniacs over the weekend and working up a head of steam on my topic of proxy-based interop ... it might be an unruly crowd if we do yours today. Are you inclined to bump yours to next week, or to do a two-parter, or to bump mine?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|let's just bump mine.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i'm coming off a cold anyway
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so my brainisn't completely here at the moment
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks, appreciate it.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Now I just hope a couple of my "special guests" show up. ;-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|LO: I'm sorta awake for a while. Doing usual spam
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|can you give me a one-liner description to include, Latha?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"special guests" sounds omninous
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ominous
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Sai, --> the Tuesday 9:30 groupies meeting will be hosted by Latha Serevi on the theme of "proxy-based interop"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|KK
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|no one has added a spellchecker to the client yet?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I specially invited Latif, Dahlia, Dzonatas, and the speciallest guest, LordGregGreg.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Although Greg didn't say he'd show, just grumbled about the early hour. ;-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:08]
| colspan="2"|''Meadhbh Oh can't touch the client for another couple months. i'm beginning to hate the ramifications of the GPL''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|https://wiki.secondlife.com/w/index.php?title=AW_Groupies_In-World_Meeting_Agenda
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|remind him it's 5:30PM somewhere
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It's not a ramification of the GPL. Opensim's restriction is specific to LL code.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|we can put a gin and tonic in his hand, that might make the early hour more palatable
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|In keeping with the recent trend, I'm relaying local chat at TBT to irc://irc.quickfox.net/groupies for this morning.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Cool
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:15]
| colspan="2"|''LathaSerevi waves ''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|/names
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hiya Zha :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:David Valerian|David Valerian]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hi :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Roland Riddler|Roland Riddler]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|heyas
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha do you need to rez anything to present on? Or just chat?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:23]
| colspan="2"|''Wut waves to everyone in TBT''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kevin Paisley|Kevin Paisley]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|giggles at roland checking his pits
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Roland Riddler|Roland Riddler]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|;-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hola
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hiya Wut!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, thanks, it'll just be text chat.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:24]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: ooh, it's working :)''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|/
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Super
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:24]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry likes when other people present, as its easy on the fingers''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:24]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: hehe ''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It's been an interesting week for chat interop. Just imagine when we start doing object interop :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Next week, the mea, who's last few letters are hard to type will be talking abot future proofing VWRAP
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yeah, which reminds me
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hey, Zha, how about adding a first line to the groupies charter now, "NOTE: group chat may be relayed outside SL."
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:25]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry ponders''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I could do that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it was fun and all to play with the bridge
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|seems like fair warning.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I put that in the VWRAP Chat group.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but it's up to Zha to approvie if we wanted it run on a more permanent basis
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Worse still, it would be nice if people fromt he outside refrained from egreigous nastiness
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I like havbing it up
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"Membership implies consent". That was easy because no retrospective issues there, since it was a new group.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, we've set up me and MichelleZ as chan-ops on the IRC, so we could always "boot" the relay bot, I think, if problems happened.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|We're working out the social consequences as we go.,..
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think its good to have the low cost way of people following
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...but it's sure educational.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and besides why should only SL people here the insanely odd discussions that come up?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Ahuva! You're leaving dents in my grass!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|We had our first pain-in-the-butt last night (hi, Kevin!), just to remind us that we'll have to be aware of these things.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Ahuva, you;re hopping
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kevin Paisley|Kevin Paisley]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and going underground :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hey Dahlia
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Woah, Sparkly metallic Dahlia
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hiya Dahlia :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hi :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ahuva Heliosense|Ahuva Heliosense]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|*grin* i dont weight that much, Zha, the grass will recover
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|was there a rolling restart today?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|/Nice glossy texturing on the Dahlia Bot
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ahuva Heliosense|Ahuva Heliosense]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|everyone but Dahlia and Zha are clouds for me :(
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|is dahliabot saluting or biting her fingernails?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|trying to make my avatar look like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maschinenmensch
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Nicely classical
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|greetings everybody
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:31]
| colspan="2"|''Meadhbh Oh starts humming kraftwerk to herself at the mention of the man machine''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hola rex
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kevin Paisley|Kevin Paisley]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ahoy rex
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:31]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: hiya rex''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:31]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry goes looking for a boat''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Roland Riddler|Roland Riddler]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hi
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hi meadhbh, kevin, wut, roland
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|OK, I'm going to update the charter to mention that there may be bridging to outside channels
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Cool Zha
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha, should I mention you as admin on the chats outside SL?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, I wouldn't ... just leave it as "may be relayed"...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Sounds good
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...but atm Latif, me, and MichelleZ are chanops
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:33]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry digs into the 2.01 group ui, hopeing to emerge with an updated charter within the hour''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|actually, i extended the list... so on ic, myself, latha, dahlia, robin (michellez) and hermit can moderate
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:33]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: pleasant though, this is much less network intensive than radegast''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Topic for today is at https://wiki.secondlife.com/w/index.php?title=AW_Groupies_In-World_Meeting_Agenda . My outline of today's topic is the first two sections.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|irc*
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|many brave souls have dissapeared that way, zha:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:34]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry updates the charter''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:David Valerian|David Valerian]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Interesting, I never knew this was possible
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|brb. have to put coins in the meter
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"Please be aware your words may travel far."
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|u should have said: be aware that u will find yourself on google:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well that's true of every word typed spoken, or otherwise encoded, isn't it?
??? [09:36] Wut: :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Except on apple Ipads in flash ;-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|nope
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|FYI, the second youtube video listed on http://code.google.com/p/par/ is greg's 5 minute overview video of Par.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the "dark web"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well, I sort of assume every single bit of content I ever create sooner or later will be indexed on google. It saves being surprised
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha, QuickFox has gone red. I guess that's "bad"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Ah, green again
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:37]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: hmm. i can still hear you''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It just hiccups red now and then but doens't seem to lose anything
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hmm.. there's also archive.org
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ok, a couple more minutes and I think Latha can start
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:38]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: yep, a godsend''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:38]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry debates tossing a stick''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:David Valerian|David Valerian]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Awesome, I'm really looking forward to this discussion
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:38]
| colspan="2"|''Morgaine Dinova winds up Latha's tail''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm thinking maybe I'll try typing real fast for about 5 minutes to get us started.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(I almost prepared some stuff ahead, but didn't)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:39]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry laughs''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|before we start let me just say that at the coffee shop i'm at, they're playing a reggae version of pink floyd's dark side of the moon.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it really works
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:39]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: hehe ''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|is it still in synch with Wizard of OZ?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kevin Paisley|Kevin Paisley]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|is this a coffee shop or one of those weed smoking joints in NL? :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:David Valerian|David Valerian]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ø*ø LooOOoL ø*ø
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So.. as we get going... The usual disclaimer applies
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|no. it's a coffee shop in sandta cruz, so you have to go outside to smoke weed
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|This is an informal open meeting, whatyou say here will sooner or later likely beposted to the SL wiki by the Kuhn Bot
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the kuhn bot sticks his tongue out
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Coincidentally I'm at the coffee station in the InWorldz grid. Nice social atmosphere.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Speak and expect to be public
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|With that out of the way, Latha's going to type like a caffine crazed canine to start the discussion
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Okay, here goes.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:David Valerian|David Valerian]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Meeting with a dog in the park, this is awesome, haha!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The outline I wrote is the first two sections of https://wiki.secondlife.com/w/index.php?title=AW_Groupies_In-World_Meeting_Agenda
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|This is largely prompted by this week's lively action
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|started when Latif did an awesome job hooking up
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|an IRC client to Radegast and doing "agent style bridging"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(i.e. a bot acts like a client on each VW of interest and relays chat)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|When I learned of Dahlia's proxy based approach
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(XMPP relay based on a plugin to gridproxy)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it occurred to me that I wanted to understand the proxy-based approachm,
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|, its limitations and advantages.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm thinking of this on two levels.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm currently on Dahlia's proxy from InWorldz.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|In the longer term, VWRAP seems to be moving
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|toward a federation style model, where a client
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|connects to lots of diverse services.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The question there is, will some of those services be dressed-up by proxies.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But the short term, and very interesting case, is libomv based proxying
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|of a SL packet stream.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Very interesting because we have practical and useful tools for doing it now.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...and can therefore dress-up any SL client.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|with the subset of capabilities that can be added to a proxy.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Some things would seem difficult to do that way, but many are do-able.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Dahlia's XMPP proxy is a clear case --
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|just have a configurable Jabber client hiding in a proxy layer, and patch it into group-chat logic
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...using chat commands like "/jabber init" to control the proxy.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|LordGregGreg's Par is a really wildly interesting example.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|He's added all sorts of crazy Emerald stuff into a proxy that can be used by any viewer.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|e.g. right now I'm using Par and SG2.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So, I get "viewer ID" in my viewer 2, etc.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(pause, deep breath)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Any questions or comments so far on my intro?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Nope :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The second tie-in I'm making is to "extensible viewers".
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|sounds pretty straightforward to me
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|looks that there r 2 distinct ways: by proxy, and using a bot
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Rex, the 3rd is viewer plugins, and the 4th is REST viewer services like SNOW-375.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm pursuing the line of thought that says...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|... proxies are one way to dress up the viewer-server interaction....
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...but any kind of viewer enhancement is another.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|... and particularly the loosely-coup-led-viewer idea.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|has any one looked to see if viewer 2 and snowglobe is open to cookie attack or tracking ?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|xstorm, I"m going to steamroller that q.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|loosely coup?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|if u use shared media, u bet u can be tracked
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|loosely coupled viewer -- e.g. Dzonatas's.
??? [09:49] Wut: :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:49]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: SNOW-375 is rather fun''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Dzonatas's SNOW-375 idea, which I don't completely love,
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...is to define an API that the viewer provides to other loosely coupled viewer services.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...via HTTP
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Loose coupling is the ONLY idea that's remotely sensible. There are lots of ways to achieve it, not just Dzon's.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So, if Dzonatas writes some code that provides chat messages to HTTP, then I can write a separate window chat client.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I kinda like that idea if it becomes widespread and it allows the same access that I'm using in gridproxy now
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|looks like s375 can be implemented via viewer plugin
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Taken to its extreme, you would have a "headless thick client" that does all the sim interaction and provides not a gui, but HOOKS into which other guis dip.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha++
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|fThen it starts to look like a fancy proxy (!)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I might mention the server-side rendering here.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If you're on a smartphone, what you'd like in between you and SL
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The body of the viewer should actually have no UI at all, just an API to which you can hook any number of alternative UIs.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...is pretty much a full viewer that provides ways for your smartphone to show you w2hat's going on.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...and which renders and controls your 3-d view so your smartphone doesn't have to.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Let me check my outline at https://wiki.secondlife.com/w/index.php?title=AW_Groupies_In-World_Meeting_Agenda and see if I've covered the main points I had prepared.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:53]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: or it could find a middle ground and preprocess the scene into simple OpenGL ES commands''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I seem to have covered my bullet points.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So, that's the theme for today -- how proxies fit into the overall ecosystem of VW interactionsl,
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:53]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: having already culled, and maybe integrated motion etc''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|coolies!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|with particular attention to the interesting set of RIGHT THIS MONTH proxies using SL packet based libomv approaches.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If LordGregGreg shows up, he'd be a really interesting addition to the chat.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...because he has played some really silly proxy tricks.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I should say that I've used Dahlia's jabber plugin for gridproxy A LOT, and generally like it. It does have issues however, which I've described in the agenda, plus solutions for them.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|if all messages between viewer and sim r encrypted, then proxies r kind of out of the question
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Rex, yes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...and indeed, it's a little twisted to construct a system...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...where the viewer DOESNT KNOW that features are being added.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|should i comment not that at one time the idea fro enhancing inworld IM was to speak OGP CHAT between the client and a proxy that implemented the sim parts of text chat
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But of course that has the advantage that the viewer doesn't ne3ed to be changed, or even under our contorl.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|s/not/now/
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|even now in emerald u can have encrypted chat
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Rex - encrypted chat is a good example.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|also. if the proxy is local, it's pretty trivial for it to peek into the memory space of another program to extract the key material
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...particularly since Par adds encrypted chat to an arbitrary client via proxy!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|if it's remote, just have the proxy act as a MitM
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|u need also to have the same algorithm
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I wonder how much would break if you strung two Par proxies together in series. Probably just about everythying.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|encrypted chat can open up a lot of problems for a company
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i.e. Par isn't just a clean filter.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think there are other gridproxy based plugins that are purer filters of the SL packet stream.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|a lto of companies are down with encrypted chat, as long as a trusted central authority can peek when they need to
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Dahlia, any comment at this point?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Peeking into another process's memory space is an extraordinarily bad idea, even if feasible
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|well I havent really prepared anything, but I can briefly describe the jabber proxy and/or answer questions
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(whoa, lost IRC bridge to quickfox
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:58]
| colspan="2"|''Commy: (Proprietary version) SL->IRC: Channel: #groupies''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:58]
| colspan="2"|''Commy: (Proprietary version) SL->IRC: Password: interop''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:58]
| colspan="2"|''Commy: (Proprietary version) SL->IRC: Max HTTP requests per second: 1''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:58]
| colspan="2"|''Commy: (Proprietary version) SL->IRC: Throttle delay: 210''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:58]
| colspan="2"|''Commy: (Proprietary version) SL->IRC: Loaded settings from notecard, starting.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the problem is viewers like emerald has encrypted chat that is made so now one can view it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(had to reset the bridge, was a network hiccup of some kind)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lets wait a few sec for quickfox to restart
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I've been using gridproxy for quite a while to explore the SL protocol and I wanted to test possible ways of adding group chat to OpenSim
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...listenst to Dahlia and thinks...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|at one time I wanted to see how a jabber enabled client could work for interop or group chat
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but I use many different clients and I dont build my own LL based clients
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so I coded up a proxy that allows an IM window in a normal client to connect to a dummy IM session in a proxy that runs between my viewer and SL/OpenSim
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(lagg)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and that dummy IM session connects to a jabber chat room
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:02]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: aha, you're all back again :)''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|wtf, two messages lost (long ones)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|when a message comes thru, a new IM tab appears and all the chat from that room is available in that tab
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|just like a normal group chat tab
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Jonathan Yap|Jonathan Yap]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|How are you capturing the arriving sl IMs?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|given that the jabber server is a separate entity from SL or OpenSim it doesnt matter where I am logged in, I can still access the same room
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|any questions?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Nope. Works fine.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I find it interseting that Emerald does the similar thing (chat relay to IRC) as a compilied-in addon, that ends up looking about the same. Greg was saying that he might rather do it as a proxy next time.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so I released the code as a LGPL licensed plugin for the libomv gridproxy and it's available here: http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/jabberimproxy/
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And of course there's Latif's approach to bridging, that has a separate agent connect to both worlds and do the relay.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i don't think emerald relays, just basically adds irc client to viewer
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif, you're right
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|not that it's really intended for developers and it's not user friendly at all
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I've added to the agenda some ideas on how to make it user-friendly.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine's ideas are on how to make the proxy act more like a plugin, I think.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lafif. u run those bots locally on you computer?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I wish diva was here, she has her "grider" project which takes proxy based interop to a higher level
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Rex, on a server actually
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|An interesting alternative is the way Par works -- you start it, and it starts your viewer. It's configuration free and easy, worked surprisingly well.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I asked her to come but I think she had a conflict in her schedule
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yep. The general idea is that the main viewer should act as the networking endpoint, to adhere to the principle of least surprise for users.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i home some one reads the US-CERT some time
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|im off to nap
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|laterz
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:07]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: laters ''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|tc xstorm
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|bye :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It can then route stuff in and out of proxy processes, without them being IP routers.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine, that would avoid the hackiness of the current libomv reverse engineering...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...but would impose a requirement on the viewer...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|also. there's no reason a CALM message couldn't point you to a proxy
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I've also often considered that gridproxy + plugins is somewhat analogous to the multi-process viewer architecture described on the SL wiki
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|How much have you looked at any ways of "prooving" people are who they say they are across the boundary
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, that's a worthy topic, but I suggest maybe for another time?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hmm.. hmm... yuo SHOULD be able to have a proxy that speaks VWRAP on one side and LLLP on the otehr
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Sure.. just curious
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i.e. it's an obvious next step for our IRC and XMPP bridging thing
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Question: can SNOW-375 be implemented at the proxy level? Might have to be a thick viewer-like proxy in order to be able to expose the right API.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The LL viewers isn't a fixed point. It should be possible to get a transparent proxy thread into Snowglobe as a prototype, and in principle from there it could get into the main SL viewer.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|well I believe XMPP can support some form of authentication, but I dont know the details
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine++
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...but we'll have to define how a filtering proxy works if it's not at the packet level...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...will there be multiple "kinds"?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i.e. an api for chat proxies, an api for 3-d munging proxies?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha: that question applies MUCH more widely, to interop between worlds in general :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Question, who has tried Par? If you haven't, may I suggest you watch the 2nd video at http://code.google.com/p/par/ to see what Greg's up to?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(I don't mean right this minute)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I tried it around a year ago, it had some fun features
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It applies in RL too. When you speak on the phone with someone, you don't really know who you're speaking to, unless it's someone from a small circle of people whose voices you know. And even then ...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|F'rinstance, he adds a radar feature to the proxy ... but then needs to load up an in-world scripted object in order to do most features.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I borrowed the sit anywhere idea for my personal proxy
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|doubleclick teleport is hacked on top of the "navigate to this spot" packet.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(I think)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(i.e. Par could only do doubleclick TP because a similar feature was in most viewers already)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hey dahlia. how many man hours did your proxy take you to develop? roughly?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|really not many as I was already familiar with most of what was needed
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|maybe a couple days
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|you mean all of gridproxy, or jabber plugin for it?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Notice that when implemented as in the last section of the agenda, the same mechanism supports both true proxy processes (filters) and also backend extension plugins. No need for two different systems.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|just the jabber plugin
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine, are you glossing over a lot of complexity in how the plugin APIs need to be defined?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I haven't referred to API at all, other than mentioning SNOW-375 as a possibility
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I have another plugin that filters group, IM, and normal chat and vectors it off to a personal XMPP server, and I use it so I can have a large-font chat window on another screen
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hmm.i really should do an auth proxy that knows vwrap auth off one side and XMLRPC out the other
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Only referring to the routing architecture at this point.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Right, I"m just concerned that if we take the plugin approach, somehow all the viewer creators have to agree.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|just realized i could do it without touching the client
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so I borrowed some code from that proxy
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|gridproxy is about 4 years old now, its main initial purpose was to be a tool for reverse engineer SL protocol, way back when, but as you can see with par and dahlia's work it found many other interesting uses
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|since pixel has been doing a good job on client stuff for vwrap
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha: not really necessary to find agreement. Viewer developers will pick it up if it's good, and won't if it's bad. Agreeing in advance of knowing whether it's a good idea is probably not useful. Let it speak for itself.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Meadhbh, that work seem to have stalled
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|crap, my chat isn't going thru
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|right. cause there's no one to manage vaak since i left
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|One HUGE advantage of the short-term libomv packet proxy approach
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|if there was a proxy that could do it, i bet i could ask nice and convince her to spentd a little time on it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|dammit
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|wtf.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|some things I say just won't go thru.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Meadhbh, jhurliman asked, was told pixel is working on other projects now
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|big brother linden may be watching?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|nobody is working on anything vwrap related client side
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(that i know of)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:20]
| colspan="2"|''LathaSerevi: Maybe I'll type over here for a while.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|okay. well we code the proxy to use the version of VWRAP /OGP auth that's already in the viewer
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:20]
| colspan="2"|''LathaSerevi: \ ''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|then we loop around, make a diff between OGP and VWRAP and ask someone to work on it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Shall we take a moment on the long-term view of proxies?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|that would be good, I think
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|One thought is, they're a hiccup, a dinosaur.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm thinking that a better answer than proxies, in the longer term, might be a flexible loosely coupled client, with an API of some kind, that talks VWRAP to a federation of services. Proxies, if any, would be more narrowly focused.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:21]
| colspan="2"|''Wut nods ''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well as Dahlia pointed out, proxies are just a limited form of the multi-process client.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:22]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: on the other hand, proxies would be a powerful research vehical''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|However, that clean-sounding claim I just made may well be crap.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha, in my view, all this talk about proxies is because of (lack of) progress of vwrap, or "the real interop"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:David Valerian|David Valerian]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I have to go, There is en emergency that I need to tend to. Will the rest of this discussion be available on the Wiki for later viewing?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:22]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: yep ''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and people want to communicate across world boundaries
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|we'll make it so, David, seeya
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|cheers david
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|gridproxy is an amazing research tool but has some limitations
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:22]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: tc david''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|tc
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:David Valerian|David Valerian]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Awesome, Bye bye
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|vwrap is going to take a while
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it's not an overnight thign
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif, I think you're falling for the clean fallacy. Proxies seem less clean, because they're not explicitly recognized as such by the viewer code ... but that's also their strength, right?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|everyone has to get their say on the list
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|for one, it's lack of user friendliness... though there have been attempts to make it friendlier
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|etc etc
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i can't work on simian grid for another three months
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If we insist on clean interaction with all sides knowing what's going on, there's a huge coordination problem.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Meadhbh, "overnight"... i mean a solution that takes less than a decade
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|linden seems to have put it on mothballs for another 6 months
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|you have to move on internet time
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If we allow various endpoints to be cluelessly participating ...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|considering the fact that a decade hasn't expired since the formation of the working group, that's kind of an insulting statement
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|using a given protocol, and allow proxies to play evil games
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|okay. so latif won't be participating. okay
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|... with them, mashups are more possible
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|there's no requirement that you do
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Meadhbh, awg -> ogp -> vwrap is two years already, isn't it?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and yeah. i get it, if there's activity, you might be more interested
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha: I think you'll find that self-organization works fine, without prior all-round agreement. Jarilo is a good example, as was Hypergrid.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|awg != ogp
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ogp != vwrap
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|really? gee
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|There's a clear progression
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but they are not coupled
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and also, if you're counting in binary then two years is a decade, perhaps
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Meadhbh and Latif, please take a one minute timeout. :_o
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(mostly kidding)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|what's that, Zha?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Meadhbh, I for the two years of effort, we got a login draft, 8 years left to complete something that has an actual client and grid to connect to
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:27]
| colspan="2"|''Latha Serevi kicks Latif''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|latif's point is valid... though i find the way it was made slightly insulting
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|We spent a long time giving VWRAP a wider remit than OGP ever had, so what was said above is quite right.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|There is a defintie progressino of ideas fromt heo ne to the next
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yes. wow. look at all the work you put into vaak, latif
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:27]
| colspan="2"|''Latha Serevi kicks Meadhbh''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|how much time did _you_ spend on it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:27]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: okay i'm not liking the tone of this''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hey!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Easy peeps
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yeah. i'll argue with latif offline
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|or out of band
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:28]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: yeah, if you could''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, what progression?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i'll totally agree with the statement, we havet o move faster on the vwrap sude though
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Or not at all, since the past of OGP is irrelevant. VWRAP is a different kettle of fish.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|s/sude/side/
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Any other summary style comments from folks? Perhaps we're winding down slightly early at a natural stopping point?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha: last two sections of agenda
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|What other problems were there with the proxy approach?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I only reeled off a few, no doubt there are others.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|no. i think it was a pretty good discussion
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|To me, the main limitation is that it's a packet mangling approach, so can't really initiate new stuff.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the style seemed about normal for a groupies meeting
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|well it's not a common way to program things
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the common problems section...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:31]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: it gives you some options, ultimately we're going to need a test server that we can extend''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|To me, the main advantage is that it leaves the endpoints untouched, so is great for quick-n-dirty adapters.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha: only the pure proxy filter is a packet mangling approach, Plan B in the agenda doesn't have that restriction
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i think a lot of it has to do with user friendliness
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but there is one nice advantage, it works with any viewer
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but i could imagine you could get a pre-packaged viewer + proxy
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|to make it nice and easy
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so when you start it it does what par does basically
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Dahlia: true, but another way of restating that is "Its is limited by the capabilities of viewers".
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|starts the proxy which in turn auto starts the viewer
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it's at least another tool in the toolkit. latif, if it doesn't work on a friendliness basis, maybe there's work that can be done to improve it, or maybe it's a solution for specific niche applications
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:32]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: and by the capabilities of the servers...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and wooptie you got yourself proxy based interop viewer
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif: indeed. In other words, the proxy *IS* the viewer, and the viewer becomes its plugin :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine, I find your proposal to dilute the "proxy" notion into more of a "plugin" notion, so it becomes a less clear idea to me.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Im not sure Morgaine, it also enables new capabilities in viewers
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I like how the libomv proxy so clearly elucidates the pros and cons of a raw proxy approach.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morg, exactly
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and you can have proxy window that manages plugins, etc, a-la par
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha: the problems with proxies actually stem from it being an IP router, not from it being refactored functionality. What I'm doing is keeping the benefits while losing the problems of the proxy approach.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Robin made a nice little proxy program that makes it more user friendly, her "tray proxy"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine, I just think that you're losing the most important benefit: universality. I can't just take any old client and add to it, I have to add a plugin infrastructure and recompile.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(I realize the hope is that every viewer will have such a thing)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha: universaiity is a PROBLEM. It means you can't advance, because you're limited by the need for backwards compatibility.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|!!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Oh, hey, I think I have one more important-feeling idea to bring up.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Par is a "thin" proxy. SNOW-375, when taken to an extreme, would be a "thick" proxy more like a headless viewer.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|("thick" meaning has more state, controls more of the sim interaction, etc)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Is this making sense?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yup
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:37]
| colspan="2"|''Wut nods ''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Should we think of a "thick" user-agent, headless, as something to shoot for?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|somewhat
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:37]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: yes ''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:38]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: with a headless user agent, we can worry about 3d interaction as a separate project''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:38]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: which i'm quite happy to set up''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Perhaps "thick" ought to be replaced by a more technical term, something about functionality
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:38]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: the biggest issue i'm having with even starting a viewer is i'd rather do it from scratch, and dealing with all the SL bums and crocks is a pain :)''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I've often wanted the SL renderer to be a self contained component licensed as LGPL
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Remove the UI. What else can be removed?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Dahlia++
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:39]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: Dahlia, agreed''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:39]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: plus that way you can swap in other renderer projects''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|that'll never happen of course :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Wut: latif|Wut: latif]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hush :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|not with the linden viewer anyway
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And I wonder if the user-agent (what we think of as the innards of the viewer) should be a lot less thick than it currently is, or not. Will it have the local notion of the current neighborhood scenegraph in it?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:39]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: never with the linden viewer, naturally ;)''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Worth noting that if the UI is removed from the thick client, the V2.0 problems disappear at a stroke too ^_^
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|dahlia. u need an interface:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I don' tthink that the vwrap spec will necrssarily require it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:40]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: Morg++ ''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(i.e. there's a notion that the sim streams updates to our local box. so, does the thick user-agent act as the local endpoint for that streaming, and keep a notion of VW state?)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:40]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: it depends how hairy it is''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it has to
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Rex, if the renderer was a component then interface design would be much more flexible
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:41]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: it could transform and forward messages specific to the renderer, for e.g.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So, a useful focal point is "the local-box software component that maintains local VW state". A proxy sits on the sim-side of that component; the UI sits on the user-side of it.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|using uml to design a 3d renderer component...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:42]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: something like that. i'm not particularly keen on faffing around in the user-agent to manage the scenegraph, that's sort of the renderer's job''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm not even sure the renderer process should be the endpoint. The current monolithic design doesn't allow for multiple views for example. Really in MVC terminology, the endpoint should be the Model, not the View.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:42]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: nono, the renderer needn't be an endpoint''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Agreed, Morgaine, renderer is on the viewer-side of the "local state maintaining" component.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|**user-side
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:43]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: but it needs to keep its latency to a minimum, unlike *cough* the current viewers''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Note that a bunchg oif this is more about "How to build a cliewnt" then the protovcol it speeks
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Anybody have a good name for the local state maintaining endpoint, other than "headless viewer" or "local user-agent"?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|grid connector?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yep. The endpoint of a VW client should really just be a local representation of agent state, and present an API to everything that might need to communicate with the agent or the world.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|or "grid agent"?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:44]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: grid agent, maybe. it's more than just a connector''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, I mostly disagree. F'rinstance, on the network side of the "headless viewer" is a protocol.... but on the user side is also a protocol of sorts, that we're calling an API...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine, you're describing libomv's GridClient :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha: Dzon made some interesting points on VWRAP that *do* impact on the protocol, such as the fact that more than one network endpoint is needed for the same agent session.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif: Yep, libomv provides a couple of the most vivid examples of points on the thin-to-thick proxy spectrum ....
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif: could you describe "GridClient" pls?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it's the main object of the libomv based clients
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|There are bits which do
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it maintains agent state, world state (object tracker, sim tracker, nearby user tracker)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Mostly making sure you can ask for less then the whole world
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif: ah, OK
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it doesn't do much anything in the way of presenting it, it provides APi for applications writers to represent that state to the user in the way they find most appropriate
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I love how libomv is an example (a hacky, SL packet stream compatible example) of some things that we want to deal with in VWRAP.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|kk. i've got to run (literally)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|going for my morning jog on the beach
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|cya Mead
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: seeya meadhbh''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|tc meadhbh
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|take care Mead
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|bye :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|havea good one folks.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and once more, sorry for blowing up at you latif
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Roland Riddler|Roland Riddler]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|byes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|your points are well taken
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|no worries ;)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Brrrrrr... SF beaches
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|didn't he move to alaska:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The pacific is impressivlely cold at the latitude of Santa Cruz
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i've got plenty of things going not to get upset at "what have *you* done" sort of comments :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:50]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry chuckles''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Not terribly construtive
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks so much, gang, for participating in my topic -- my thinking has made some progress today...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks for coming and sharing
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:50]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: np, it's been a particularly interesting one latha''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, which?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Mea's trantrum
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|heh
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|we know her well :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Indeed
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Just not constructive
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and i am frustrated by the pace of progress
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|We all are, I think
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And Linden's currently feeling somewhat feckless
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|what would be considered progress?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, is anyone besides Joshua involved with the vwrap from linden side?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zero?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|attm? Not clear. Zero is watching the mail stream, but I'm ont seeing much action.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Would be interesting if we could work on the design, and on coding. What I proposed in the last section of the agenda is how I believe VWRAP functionality should have been added to Snowglobe. I keep getting into the hint of an argument with Pixel about the way it was truly hacked (merged) into Snowglobe, instead of VWRAP functionality being decoupled.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think it's hard to make a standards process that leads rather than lags. Hopefully we can do more wiring-together of stuff, cheesy proxies, etc, and then clean it up later.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It hink you need both at once
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|You push on both piles and
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|there was some work from pixel (and other ibm'ers i think) on sg vwrap
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|over time the convrege
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|*they
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but nobody is doing it atm
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lindens got a token rep at vwrap
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif: yeah, but it was merged into SG, and is so complex that even Merov doesn't understand it.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|There's a reluctance to push on the Linden ecosystem without Linden playing
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hurli's doing it, but not too many other things going on...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...that are explicitly tying to vwrap
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|somehow I dont think it woudl be in LL's best interest to lose influence in VWRAP
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:55]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: but if LL don't provide input, why should they expect any influence?''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm planning on another pass on merhing post OGPX code into the openSIm module, as OpenSim settles down toward 0.7
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hurli is trying to do server side of things, but he's helpless since there is no client dev at all
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|alas, that fate keeps moving
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|*date
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, interesting, that'll be good, do you have any hacking help available?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Getting Hurli to talk about what he does seems to be virtually impossible, sad to say. I'm hoping that the Jarilo bridge to #vwrap might help there, as he's loathe to write any descriptions to VWRAP m/l at all, despite saying he would.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|problem with vwrap interop code is not sim-side. it's 1) lack of specs, 2) lack of client support
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:56]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: latif++ ''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Maybe we need a speaker-to-Hurli who can keep the communications more open.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Welll I plan on getting back into coding
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif: lack of specs because we're inventing it as we go. Remember that Zero's OGP was a 5% spec, tops.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, what client will you test it with? :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I can live with the current snowglobe/OGPX merge
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, would be nice to have one or two opensim hackers who are onboard with you to mess with the code. Sorry, that's not my area.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|at least for a while
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And I can draft pixel probably for some stugff as needed
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I get on fine with Hurli, we've had several hour-long discussions in PM. Maybe I can write the text that he doesn't like writing :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the OpenSim dev community is usually quite approachable and helpful in the IRC channels or mailing lists
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But, honestly, I'm going to start with a clean re-merge of the current oGPX stlyle code which should work with the version we had up end of last year
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, what might be a medium-term interop target for your new coding effort? Trying to see where your'e headed short term.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Up for discussion. I'm still negotiating inside my shop how we want to move in the absence of Linden motion
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think the OGP code is still in current OpenSim
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But at a minimum I want to make sure the basix OGP code surives across 0.7
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It will break at the 0.7 line at the moment
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Diva and I chatted a little about that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it's probably broken now
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The problem is 0.7 keeps receeding over the horizon
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha: OGP would be a regression compared to VWRAP
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I dont think anyone is maintaining it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Full of singletons
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It would be OGPX on the client side
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|probalbly al ittle less so on the sim side
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ok. time 4 me to go 2 andrew's oh
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|tc everybody
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|11am, off to OSgrid
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|cya Rex.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|bye :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Cyu Rex
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|cya peoples
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm gonna adjourn also, thanks!!!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|have fun:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|No good reason I can't make sure the OGPX code on OpenSim isn't a superset of what's in ther enow
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|sso, get out of the singletones
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|me too, another meeting to go to... but I'll be connected to groupies chat via my proxy ;)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|see you dahlia :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|bye all :)
|}

AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2010-05-04

2010-05-04T18:21:01Z

Latha Serevi:

{|
Text chat transcript from Groupies meeting.

Latha Serevi hosted the discussion on "proxy-based interop".

Her intro is at [09:41].

|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [08:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yawn, stretch. Will get coffee and check the agenda page. Am logged in via Par + SG2 in keeping with the theme.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [08:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|'Morning
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [08:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yo
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [08:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Roland Riddler|Roland Riddler]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|heyas
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [08:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hiya Roland
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [08:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hi Latha, Sai
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [08:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Did you read my expanded agenda page, Latha?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [08:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Just did, yes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [08:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I like the proxies (in fact I'm using one right now from InWorldz), but it's an unwieldy solution in its normal guise. I think it needs the architectural improvement I suggested on the page.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [08:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hey Ms O
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [08:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|heya sai
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [08:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|are we meeting this mornnig?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [08:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|far as I know
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [08:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|did zha announce an agenda?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [08:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|BTW, lots of experimentation with IRC/Jabber bridges in group chat. You've been notified
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [08:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yup, we have an agenda, basically Latha's day today
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [08:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|coolies. lisa/roo should be notified as well.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [08:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|last i heard, i was going to present on extensibility in vwrap
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [08:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Not heard of that. Maybe Zha's trying to cram both in, doesn't seem like a good idea though, they're each big topics.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [08:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ah. okay. guess my talk was canceled
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [08:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Oh, sorry, Meadhbh, I wonder if Zha and I got our signals crossed?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [08:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Maybe "next week's" meant something different to each of us.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [08:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i put my talk on the schedule two weeks ago afte josh's talk
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Meadhbh, sorry, had no idea there was a conflict. Given that we've been relaying IRC and Jabber like maniacs over the weekend and working up a head of steam on my topic of proxy-based interop ... it might be an unruly crowd if we do yours today. Are you inclined to bump yours to next week, or to do a two-parter, or to bump mine?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|let's just bump mine.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i'm coming off a cold anyway
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so my brainisn't completely here at the moment
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks, appreciate it.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Now I just hope a couple of my "special guests" show up. ;-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|LO: I'm sorta awake for a while. Doing usual spam
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|can you give me a one-liner description to include, Latha?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"special guests" sounds omninous
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ominous
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Sai, --> the Tuesday 9:30 groupies meeting will be hosted by Latha Serevi on the theme of "proxy-based interop"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|KK
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|no one has added a spellchecker to the client yet?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I specially invited Latif, Dahlia, Dzonatas, and the speciallest guest, LordGregGreg.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Although Greg didn't say he'd show, just grumbled about the early hour. ;-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:08]
| colspan="2"|''Meadhbh Oh can't touch the client for another couple months. i'm beginning to hate the ramifications of the GPL''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|https://wiki.secondlife.com/w/index.php?title=AW_Groupies_In-World_Meeting_Agenda
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|remind him it's 5:30PM somewhere
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It's not a ramification of the GPL. Opensim's restriction is specific to LL code.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|we can put a gin and tonic in his hand, that might make the early hour more palatable
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|In keeping with the recent trend, I'm relaying local chat at TBT to irc://irc.quickfox.net/groupies for this morning.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Cool
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:15]
| colspan="2"|''LathaSerevi waves ''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|/names
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hiya Zha :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:David Valerian|David Valerian]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hi :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Roland Riddler|Roland Riddler]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|heyas
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha do you need to rez anything to present on? Or just chat?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:23]
| colspan="2"|''Wut waves to everyone in TBT''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kevin Paisley|Kevin Paisley]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|giggles at roland checking his pits
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Roland Riddler|Roland Riddler]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|;-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hola
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hiya Wut!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, thanks, it'll just be text chat.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:24]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: ooh, it's working :)''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|/
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Super
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:24]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry likes when other people present, as its easy on the fingers''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:24]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: hehe ''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It's been an interesting week for chat interop. Just imagine when we start doing object interop :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Next week, the mea, who's last few letters are hard to type will be talking abot future proofing VWRAP
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yeah, which reminds me
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hey, Zha, how about adding a first line to the groupies charter now, "NOTE: group chat may be relayed outside SL."
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:25]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry ponders''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I could do that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it was fun and all to play with the bridge
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|seems like fair warning.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I put that in the VWRAP Chat group.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but it's up to Zha to approvie if we wanted it run on a more permanent basis
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Worse still, it would be nice if people fromt he outside refrained from egreigous nastiness
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I like havbing it up
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"Membership implies consent". That was easy because no retrospective issues there, since it was a new group.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, we've set up me and MichelleZ as chan-ops on the IRC, so we could always "boot" the relay bot, I think, if problems happened.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|We're working out the social consequences as we go.,..
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think its good to have the low cost way of people following
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...but it's sure educational.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and besides why should only SL people here the insanely odd discussions that come up?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Ahuva! You're leaving dents in my grass!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|We had our first pain-in-the-butt last night (hi, Kevin!), just to remind us that we'll have to be aware of these things.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Ahuva, you;re hopping
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kevin Paisley|Kevin Paisley]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and going underground :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hey Dahlia
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Woah, Sparkly metallic Dahlia
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hiya Dahlia :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hi :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ahuva Heliosense|Ahuva Heliosense]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|*grin* i dont weight that much, Zha, the grass will recover
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|was there a rolling restart today?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|/Nice glossy texturing on the Dahlia Bot
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ahuva Heliosense|Ahuva Heliosense]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|everyone but Dahlia and Zha are clouds for me :(
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|is dahliabot saluting or biting her fingernails?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|trying to make my avatar look like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maschinenmensch
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Nicely classical
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|greetings everybody
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:31]
| colspan="2"|''Meadhbh Oh starts humming kraftwerk to herself at the mention of the man machine''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hola rex
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kevin Paisley|Kevin Paisley]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ahoy rex
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:31]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: hiya rex''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:31]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry goes looking for a boat''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Roland Riddler|Roland Riddler]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hi
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hi meadhbh, kevin, wut, roland
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|OK, I'm going to update the charter to mention that there may be bridging to outside channels
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Cool Zha
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha, should I mention you as admin on the chats outside SL?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, I wouldn't ... just leave it as "may be relayed"...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Sounds good
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...but atm Latif, me, and MichelleZ are chanops
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:33]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry digs into the 2.01 group ui, hopeing to emerge with an updated charter within the hour''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|actually, i extended the list... so on ic, myself, latha, dahlia, robin (michellez) and hermit can moderate
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:33]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: pleasant though, this is much less network intensive than radegast''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Topic for today is at https://wiki.secondlife.com/w/index.php?title=AW_Groupies_In-World_Meeting_Agenda . My outline of today's topic is the first two sections.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|irc*
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|many brave souls have dissapeared that way, zha:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:34]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry updates the charter''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:David Valerian|David Valerian]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Interesting, I never knew this was possible
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|brb. have to put coins in the meter
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"Please be aware your words may travel far."
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|u should have said: be aware that u will find yourself on google:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well that's true of every word typed spoken, or otherwise encoded, isn't it?
??? [09:36] Wut: :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Except on apple Ipads in flash ;-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|nope
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|FYI, the second youtube video listed on http://code.google.com/p/par/ is greg's 5 minute overview video of Par.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the "dark web"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well, I sort of assume every single bit of content I ever create sooner or later will be indexed on google. It saves being surprised
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha, QuickFox has gone red. I guess that's "bad"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Ah, green again
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:37]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: hmm. i can still hear you''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It just hiccups red now and then but doens't seem to lose anything
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hmm.. there's also archive.org
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ok, a couple more minutes and I think Latha can start
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:38]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: yep, a godsend''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:38]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry debates tossing a stick''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:David Valerian|David Valerian]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Awesome, I'm really looking forward to this discussion
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:38]
| colspan="2"|''Morgaine Dinova winds up Latha's tail''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm thinking maybe I'll try typing real fast for about 5 minutes to get us started.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(I almost prepared some stuff ahead, but didn't)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:39]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry laughs''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|before we start let me just say that at the coffee shop i'm at, they're playing a reggae version of pink floyd's dark side of the moon.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it really works
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:39]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: hehe ''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|is it still in synch with Wizard of OZ?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kevin Paisley|Kevin Paisley]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|is this a coffee shop or one of those weed smoking joints in NL? :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:David Valerian|David Valerian]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ø*ø LooOOoL ø*ø
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So.. as we get going... The usual disclaimer applies
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|no. it's a coffee shop in sandta cruz, so you have to go outside to smoke weed
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|This is an informal open meeting, whatyou say here will sooner or later likely beposted to the SL wiki by the Kuhn Bot
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the kuhn bot sticks his tongue out
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Coincidentally I'm at the coffee station in the InWorldz grid. Nice social atmosphere.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Speak and expect to be public
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|With that out of the way, Latha's going to type like a caffine crazed canine to start the discussion
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Okay, here goes.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:David Valerian|David Valerian]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Meeting with a dog in the park, this is awesome, haha!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The outline I wrote is the first two sections of https://wiki.secondlife.com/w/index.php?title=AW_Groupies_In-World_Meeting_Agenda
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|This is largely prompted by this week's lively action
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|started when Latif did an awesome job hooking up
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|an IRC client to Radegast and doing "agent style bridging"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:42]
| colspan="2"|''SpinkerKicker Payer v1.04: $30 SpinkerKicker - Latha Serevi, you were KICKED from slot 5 by Roxy Emsbury! You won L$111!''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(i.e. a bot acts like a client on each VW of interest and relays chat)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|When I learned of Dahlia's proxy based approach
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(XMPP relay based on a plugin to gridproxy)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it occurred to me that I wanted to understand the proxy-based approachm,
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|, its limitations and advantages.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm thinking of this on two levels.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm currently on Dahlia's proxy from InWorldz.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|In the longer term, VWRAP seems to be moving
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|toward a federation style model, where a client
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|connects to lots of diverse services.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The question there is, will some of those services be dressed-up by proxies.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But the short term, and very interesting case, is libomv based proxying
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|of a SL packet stream.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Very interesting because we have practical and useful tools for doing it now.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...and can therefore dress-up any SL client.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|with the subset of capabilities that can be added to a proxy.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Some things would seem difficult to do that way, but many are do-able.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Dahlia's XMPP proxy is a clear case --
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|just have a configurable Jabber client hiding in a proxy layer, and patch it into group-chat logic
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...using chat commands like "/jabber init" to control the proxy.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|LordGregGreg's Par is a really wildly interesting example.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|He's added all sorts of crazy Emerald stuff into a proxy that can be used by any viewer.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|e.g. right now I'm using Par and SG2.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So, I get "viewer ID" in my viewer 2, etc.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(pause, deep breath)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Any questions or comments so far on my intro?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Nope :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The second tie-in I'm making is to "extensible viewers".
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|sounds pretty straightforward to me
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|looks that there r 2 distinct ways: by proxy, and using a bot
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Rex, the 3rd is viewer plugins, and the 4th is REST viewer services like SNOW-375.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm pursuing the line of thought that says...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:48]
| colspan="2"|''SpinkerKicker Payer v1.04: $30 SpinkerKicker - Latha Serevi, you were KICKED from slot 4 by Damian Dertzer! You won L$165!''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|... proxies are one way to dress up the viewer-server interaction....
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...but any kind of viewer enhancement is another.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|... and particularly the loosely-coup-led-viewer idea.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|has any one looked to see if viewer 2 and snowglobe is open to cookie attack or tracking ?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|xstorm, I"m going to steamroller that q.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|loosely coup?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|if u use shared media, u bet u can be tracked
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|loosely coupled viewer -- e.g. Dzonatas's.
??? [09:49] Wut: :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:49]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: SNOW-375 is rather fun''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Dzonatas's SNOW-375 idea, which I don't completely love,
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...is to define an API that the viewer provides to other loosely coupled viewer services.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...via HTTP
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Loose coupling is the ONLY idea that's remotely sensible. There are lots of ways to achieve it, not just Dzon's.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So, if Dzonatas writes some code that provides chat messages to HTTP, then I can write a separate window chat client.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I kinda like that idea if it becomes widespread and it allows the same access that I'm using in gridproxy now
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|looks like s375 can be implemented via viewer plugin
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Taken to its extreme, you would have a "headless thick client" that does all the sim interaction and provides not a gui, but HOOKS into which other guis dip.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha++
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|fThen it starts to look like a fancy proxy (!)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I might mention the server-side rendering here.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If you're on a smartphone, what you'd like in between you and SL
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The body of the viewer should actually have no UI at all, just an API to which you can hook any number of alternative UIs.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...is pretty much a full viewer that provides ways for your smartphone to show you w2hat's going on.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...and which renders and controls your 3-d view so your smartphone doesn't have to.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Let me check my outline at https://wiki.secondlife.com/w/index.php?title=AW_Groupies_In-World_Meeting_Agenda and see if I've covered the main points I had prepared.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:53]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: or it could find a middle ground and preprocess the scene into simple OpenGL ES commands''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I seem to have covered my bullet points.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So, that's the theme for today -- how proxies fit into the overall ecosystem of VW interactionsl,
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:53]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: having already culled, and maybe integrated motion etc''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|coolies!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|with particular attention to the interesting set of RIGHT THIS MONTH proxies using SL packet based libomv approaches.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If LordGregGreg shows up, he'd be a really interesting addition to the chat.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...because he has played some really silly proxy tricks.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I should say that I've used Dahlia's jabber plugin for gridproxy A LOT, and generally like it. It does have issues however, which I've described in the agenda, plus solutions for them.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|if all messages between viewer and sim r encrypted, then proxies r kind of out of the question
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Rex, yes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...and indeed, it's a little twisted to construct a system...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...where the viewer DOESNT KNOW that features are being added.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|should i comment not that at one time the idea fro enhancing inworld IM was to speak OGP CHAT between the client and a proxy that implemented the sim parts of text chat
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But of course that has the advantage that the viewer doesn't ne3ed to be changed, or even under our contorl.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|s/not/now/
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|even now in emerald u can have encrypted chat
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Rex - encrypted chat is a good example.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|also. if the proxy is local, it's pretty trivial for it to peek into the memory space of another program to extract the key material
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...particularly since Par adds encrypted chat to an arbitrary client via proxy!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|if it's remote, just have the proxy act as a MitM
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|u need also to have the same algorithm
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I wonder how much would break if you strung two Par proxies together in series. Probably just about everythying.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|encrypted chat can open up a lot of problems for a company
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i.e. Par isn't just a clean filter.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think there are other gridproxy based plugins that are purer filters of the SL packet stream.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|a lto of companies are down with encrypted chat, as long as a trusted central authority can peek when they need to
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Dahlia, any comment at this point?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Peeking into another process's memory space is an extraordinarily bad idea, even if feasible
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|well I havent really prepared anything, but I can briefly describe the jabber proxy and/or answer questions
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(whoa, lost IRC bridge to quickfox
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:58]
| colspan="2"|''Commy: (Proprietary version) SL->IRC: Channel: #groupies''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:58]
| colspan="2"|''Commy: (Proprietary version) SL->IRC: Password: interop''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:58]
| colspan="2"|''Commy: (Proprietary version) SL->IRC: Max HTTP requests per second: 1''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:58]
| colspan="2"|''Commy: (Proprietary version) SL->IRC: Throttle delay: 210''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:58]
| colspan="2"|''Commy: (Proprietary version) SL->IRC: Loaded settings from notecard, starting.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the problem is viewers like emerald has encrypted chat that is made so now one can view it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(had to reset the bridge, was a network hiccup of some kind)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lets wait a few sec for quickfox to restart
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I've been using gridproxy for quite a while to explore the SL protocol and I wanted to test possible ways of adding group chat to OpenSim
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...listenst to Dahlia and thinks...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|at one time I wanted to see how a jabber enabled client could work for interop or group chat
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but I use many different clients and I dont build my own LL based clients
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so I coded up a proxy that allows an IM window in a normal client to connect to a dummy IM session in a proxy that runs between my viewer and SL/OpenSim
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(lagg)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and that dummy IM session connects to a jabber chat room
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:02]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: aha, you're all back again :)''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|wtf, two messages lost (long ones)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|when a message comes thru, a new IM tab appears and all the chat from that room is available in that tab
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|just like a normal group chat tab
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Jonathan Yap|Jonathan Yap]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|How are you capturing the arriving sl IMs?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|given that the jabber server is a separate entity from SL or OpenSim it doesnt matter where I am logged in, I can still access the same room
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|any questions?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Nope. Works fine.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I find it interseting that Emerald does the similar thing (chat relay to IRC) as a compilied-in addon, that ends up looking about the same. Greg was saying that he might rather do it as a proxy next time.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so I released the code as a LGPL licensed plugin for the libomv gridproxy and it's available here: http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/jabberimproxy/
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And of course there's Latif's approach to bridging, that has a separate agent connect to both worlds and do the relay.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i don't think emerald relays, just basically adds irc client to viewer
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif, you're right
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|not that it's really intended for developers and it's not user friendly at all
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I've added to the agenda some ideas on how to make it user-friendly.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine's ideas are on how to make the proxy act more like a plugin, I think.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lafif. u run those bots locally on you computer?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I wish diva was here, she has her "grider" project which takes proxy based interop to a higher level
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Rex, on a server actually
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|An interesting alternative is the way Par works -- you start it, and it starts your viewer. It's configuration free and easy, worked surprisingly well.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I asked her to come but I think she had a conflict in her schedule
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yep. The general idea is that the main viewer should act as the networking endpoint, to adhere to the principle of least surprise for users.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i home some one reads the US-CERT some time
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|im off to nap
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|laterz
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:07]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: laters ''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|tc xstorm
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|bye :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It can then route stuff in and out of proxy processes, without them being IP routers.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine, that would avoid the hackiness of the current libomv reverse engineering...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...but would impose a requirement on the viewer...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|also. there's no reason a CALM message couldn't point you to a proxy
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I've also often considered that gridproxy + plugins is somewhat analogous to the multi-process viewer architecture described on the SL wiki
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|How much have you looked at any ways of "prooving" people are who they say they are across the boundary
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, that's a worthy topic, but I suggest maybe for another time?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hmm.. hmm... yuo SHOULD be able to have a proxy that speaks VWRAP on one side and LLLP on the otehr
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Sure.. just curious
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i.e. it's an obvious next step for our IRC and XMPP bridging thing
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Question: can SNOW-375 be implemented at the proxy level? Might have to be a thick viewer-like proxy in order to be able to expose the right API.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The LL viewers isn't a fixed point. It should be possible to get a transparent proxy thread into Snowglobe as a prototype, and in principle from there it could get into the main SL viewer.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|well I believe XMPP can support some form of authentication, but I dont know the details
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine++
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...but we'll have to define how a filtering proxy works if it's not at the packet level...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...will there be multiple "kinds"?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i.e. an api for chat proxies, an api for 3-d munging proxies?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha: that question applies MUCH more widely, to interop between worlds in general :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Question, who has tried Par? If you haven't, may I suggest you watch the 2nd video at http://code.google.com/p/par/ to see what Greg's up to?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(I don't mean right this minute)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I tried it around a year ago, it had some fun features
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It applies in RL too. When you speak on the phone with someone, you don't really know who you're speaking to, unless it's someone from a small circle of people whose voices you know. And even then ...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|F'rinstance, he adds a radar feature to the proxy ... but then needs to load up an in-world scripted object in order to do most features.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I borrowed the sit anywhere idea for my personal proxy
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|doubleclick teleport is hacked on top of the "navigate to this spot" packet.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(I think)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(i.e. Par could only do doubleclick TP because a similar feature was in most viewers already)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hey dahlia. how many man hours did your proxy take you to develop? roughly?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|really not many as I was already familiar with most of what was needed
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|maybe a couple days
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|you mean all of gridproxy, or jabber plugin for it?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Notice that when implemented as in the last section of the agenda, the same mechanism supports both true proxy processes (filters) and also backend extension plugins. No need for two different systems.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|just the jabber plugin
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine, are you glossing over a lot of complexity in how the plugin APIs need to be defined?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I haven't referred to API at all, other than mentioning SNOW-375 as a possibility
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I have another plugin that filters group, IM, and normal chat and vectors it off to a personal XMPP server, and I use it so I can have a large-font chat window on another screen
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hmm.i really should do an auth proxy that knows vwrap auth off one side and XMLRPC out the other
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Only referring to the routing architecture at this point.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Right, I"m just concerned that if we take the plugin approach, somehow all the viewer creators have to agree.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|just realized i could do it without touching the client
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so I borrowed some code from that proxy
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|gridproxy is about 4 years old now, its main initial purpose was to be a tool for reverse engineer SL protocol, way back when, but as you can see with par and dahlia's work it found many other interesting uses
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|since pixel has been doing a good job on client stuff for vwrap
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha: not really necessary to find agreement. Viewer developers will pick it up if it's good, and won't if it's bad. Agreeing in advance of knowing whether it's a good idea is probably not useful. Let it speak for itself.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Meadhbh, that work seem to have stalled
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|crap, my chat isn't going thru
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|right. cause there's no one to manage vaak since i left
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|One HUGE advantage of the short-term libomv packet proxy approach
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|if there was a proxy that could do it, i bet i could ask nice and convince her to spentd a little time on it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|dammit
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|wtf.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|some things I say just won't go thru.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Meadhbh, jhurliman asked, was told pixel is working on other projects now
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|big brother linden may be watching?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|nobody is working on anything vwrap related client side
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(that i know of)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:20]
| colspan="2"|''LathaSerevi: Maybe I'll type over here for a while.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|okay. well we code the proxy to use the version of VWRAP /OGP auth that's already in the viewer
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:20]
| colspan="2"|''LathaSerevi: \ ''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|then we loop around, make a diff between OGP and VWRAP and ask someone to work on it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Shall we take a moment on the long-term view of proxies?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|that would be good, I think
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|One thought is, they're a hiccup, a dinosaur.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm thinking that a better answer than proxies, in the longer term, might be a flexible loosely coupled client, with an API of some kind, that talks VWRAP to a federation of services. Proxies, if any, would be more narrowly focused.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:21]
| colspan="2"|''Wut nods ''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well as Dahlia pointed out, proxies are just a limited form of the multi-process client.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:22]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: on the other hand, proxies would be a powerful research vehical''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|However, that clean-sounding claim I just made may well be crap.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha, in my view, all this talk about proxies is because of (lack of) progress of vwrap, or "the real interop"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:David Valerian|David Valerian]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I have to go, There is en emergency that I need to tend to. Will the rest of this discussion be available on the Wiki for later viewing?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:22]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: yep ''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and people want to communicate across world boundaries
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|we'll make it so, David, seeya
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|cheers david
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|gridproxy is an amazing research tool but has some limitations
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:22]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: tc david''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|tc
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:David Valerian|David Valerian]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Awesome, Bye bye
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|vwrap is going to take a while
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it's not an overnight thign
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif, I think you're falling for the clean fallacy. Proxies seem less clean, because they're not explicitly recognized as such by the viewer code ... but that's also their strength, right?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|everyone has to get their say on the list
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|for one, it's lack of user friendliness... though there have been attempts to make it friendlier
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|etc etc
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i can't work on simian grid for another three months
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If we insist on clean interaction with all sides knowing what's going on, there's a huge coordination problem.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Meadhbh, "overnight"... i mean a solution that takes less than a decade
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|linden seems to have put it on mothballs for another 6 months
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|you have to move on internet time
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If we allow various endpoints to be cluelessly participating ...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|considering the fact that a decade hasn't expired since the formation of the working group, that's kind of an insulting statement
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|using a given protocol, and allow proxies to play evil games
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|okay. so latif won't be participating. okay
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|... with them, mashups are more possible
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|there's no requirement that you do
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Meadhbh, awg -> ogp -> vwrap is two years already, isn't it?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and yeah. i get it, if there's activity, you might be more interested
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha: I think you'll find that self-organization works fine, without prior all-round agreement. Jarilo is a good example, as was Hypergrid.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|awg != ogp
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ogp != vwrap
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|really? gee
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|There's a clear progression
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but they are not coupled
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and also, if you're counting in binary then two years is a decade, perhaps
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Meadhbh and Latif, please take a one minute timeout. :_o
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(mostly kidding)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|what's that, Zha?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Meadhbh, I for the two years of effort, we got a login draft, 8 years left to complete something that has an actual client and grid to connect to
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:27]
| colspan="2"|''Latha Serevi kicks Latif''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|latif's point is valid... though i find the way it was made slightly insulting
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|We spent a long time giving VWRAP a wider remit than OGP ever had, so what was said above is quite right.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|There is a defintie progressino of ideas fromt heo ne to the next
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yes. wow. look at all the work you put into vaak, latif
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:27]
| colspan="2"|''Latha Serevi kicks Meadhbh''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|how much time did _you_ spend on it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:27]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: okay i'm not liking the tone of this''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hey!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Easy peeps
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yeah. i'll argue with latif offline
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|or out of band
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:28]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: yeah, if you could''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, what progression?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i'll totally agree with the statement, we havet o move faster on the vwrap sude though
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Or not at all, since the past of OGP is irrelevant. VWRAP is a different kettle of fish.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|s/sude/side/
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Any other summary style comments from folks? Perhaps we're winding down slightly early at a natural stopping point?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha: last two sections of agenda
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|What other problems were there with the proxy approach?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I only reeled off a few, no doubt there are others.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|no. i think it was a pretty good discussion
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|To me, the main limitation is that it's a packet mangling approach, so can't really initiate new stuff.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the style seemed about normal for a groupies meeting
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|well it's not a common way to program things
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the common problems section...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:31]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: it gives you some options, ultimately we're going to need a test server that we can extend''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|To me, the main advantage is that it leaves the endpoints untouched, so is great for quick-n-dirty adapters.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha: only the pure proxy filter is a packet mangling approach, Plan B in the agenda doesn't have that restriction
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i think a lot of it has to do with user friendliness
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but there is one nice advantage, it works with any viewer
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but i could imagine you could get a pre-packaged viewer + proxy
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|to make it nice and easy
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so when you start it it does what par does basically
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Dahlia: true, but another way of restating that is "Its is limited by the capabilities of viewers".
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|starts the proxy which in turn auto starts the viewer
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it's at least another tool in the toolkit. latif, if it doesn't work on a friendliness basis, maybe there's work that can be done to improve it, or maybe it's a solution for specific niche applications
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:32]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: and by the capabilities of the servers...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and wooptie you got yourself proxy based interop viewer
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif: indeed. In other words, the proxy *IS* the viewer, and the viewer becomes its plugin :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine, I find your proposal to dilute the "proxy" notion into more of a "plugin" notion, so it becomes a less clear idea to me.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Im not sure Morgaine, it also enables new capabilities in viewers
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I like how the libomv proxy so clearly elucidates the pros and cons of a raw proxy approach.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morg, exactly
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and you can have proxy window that manages plugins, etc, a-la par
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha: the problems with proxies actually stem from it being an IP router, not from it being refactored functionality. What I'm doing is keeping the benefits while losing the problems of the proxy approach.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Robin made a nice little proxy program that makes it more user friendly, her "tray proxy"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine, I just think that you're losing the most important benefit: universality. I can't just take any old client and add to it, I have to add a plugin infrastructure and recompile.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(I realize the hope is that every viewer will have such a thing)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha: universaiity is a PROBLEM. It means you can't advance, because you're limited by the need for backwards compatibility.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|!!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Oh, hey, I think I have one more important-feeling idea to bring up.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Par is a "thin" proxy. SNOW-375, when taken to an extreme, would be a "thick" proxy more like a headless viewer.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|("thick" meaning has more state, controls more of the sim interaction, etc)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Is this making sense?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yup
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:37]
| colspan="2"|''Wut nods ''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Should we think of a "thick" user-agent, headless, as something to shoot for?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|somewhat
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:37]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: yes ''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:38]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: with a headless user agent, we can worry about 3d interaction as a separate project''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:38]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: which i'm quite happy to set up''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Perhaps "thick" ought to be replaced by a more technical term, something about functionality
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:38]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: the biggest issue i'm having with even starting a viewer is i'd rather do it from scratch, and dealing with all the SL bums and crocks is a pain :)''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I've often wanted the SL renderer to be a self contained component licensed as LGPL
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Remove the UI. What else can be removed?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Dahlia++
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:39]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: Dahlia, agreed''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:39]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: plus that way you can swap in other renderer projects''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|that'll never happen of course :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Wut: latif|Wut: latif]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hush :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|not with the linden viewer anyway
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And I wonder if the user-agent (what we think of as the innards of the viewer) should be a lot less thick than it currently is, or not. Will it have the local notion of the current neighborhood scenegraph in it?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:39]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: never with the linden viewer, naturally ;)''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Worth noting that if the UI is removed from the thick client, the V2.0 problems disappear at a stroke too ^_^
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|dahlia. u need an interface:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I don' tthink that the vwrap spec will necrssarily require it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:40]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: Morg++ ''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(i.e. there's a notion that the sim streams updates to our local box. so, does the thick user-agent act as the local endpoint for that streaming, and keep a notion of VW state?)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:40]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: it depends how hairy it is''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it has to
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Rex, if the renderer was a component then interface design would be much more flexible
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:41]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: it could transform and forward messages specific to the renderer, for e.g.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So, a useful focal point is "the local-box software component that maintains local VW state". A proxy sits on the sim-side of that component; the UI sits on the user-side of it.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|using uml to design a 3d renderer component...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:42]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: something like that. i'm not particularly keen on faffing around in the user-agent to manage the scenegraph, that's sort of the renderer's job''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm not even sure the renderer process should be the endpoint. The current monolithic design doesn't allow for multiple views for example. Really in MVC terminology, the endpoint should be the Model, not the View.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:42]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: nono, the renderer needn't be an endpoint''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Agreed, Morgaine, renderer is on the viewer-side of the "local state maintaining" component.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|**user-side
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:43]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: but it needs to keep its latency to a minimum, unlike *cough* the current viewers''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Note that a bunchg oif this is more about "How to build a cliewnt" then the protovcol it speeks
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Anybody have a good name for the local state maintaining endpoint, other than "headless viewer" or "local user-agent"?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|grid connector?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yep. The endpoint of a VW client should really just be a local representation of agent state, and present an API to everything that might need to communicate with the agent or the world.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|or "grid agent"?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:44]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: grid agent, maybe. it's more than just a connector''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, I mostly disagree. F'rinstance, on the network side of the "headless viewer" is a protocol.... but on the user side is also a protocol of sorts, that we're calling an API...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine, you're describing libomv's GridClient :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha: Dzon made some interesting points on VWRAP that *do* impact on the protocol, such as the fact that more than one network endpoint is needed for the same agent session.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif: Yep, libomv provides a couple of the most vivid examples of points on the thin-to-thick proxy spectrum ....
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif: could you describe "GridClient" pls?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it's the main object of the libomv based clients
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|There are bits which do
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it maintains agent state, world state (object tracker, sim tracker, nearby user tracker)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Mostly making sure you can ask for less then the whole world
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif: ah, OK
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it doesn't do much anything in the way of presenting it, it provides APi for applications writers to represent that state to the user in the way they find most appropriate
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I love how libomv is an example (a hacky, SL packet stream compatible example) of some things that we want to deal with in VWRAP.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|kk. i've got to run (literally)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|going for my morning jog on the beach
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|cya Mead
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: seeya meadhbh''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|tc meadhbh
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|take care Mead
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|bye :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|havea good one folks.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and once more, sorry for blowing up at you latif
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Roland Riddler|Roland Riddler]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|byes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|your points are well taken
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|no worries ;)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Brrrrrr... SF beaches
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|didn't he move to alaska:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The pacific is impressivlely cold at the latitude of Santa Cruz
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i've got plenty of things going not to get upset at "what have *you* done" sort of comments :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:50]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry chuckles''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Not terribly construtive
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks so much, gang, for participating in my topic -- my thinking has made some progress today...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks for coming and sharing
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:50]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: np, it's been a particularly interesting one latha''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, which?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Mea's trantrum
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|heh
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|we know her well :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Indeed
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Just not constructive
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and i am frustrated by the pace of progress
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|We all are, I think
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And Linden's currently feeling somewhat feckless
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|what would be considered progress?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, is anyone besides Joshua involved with the vwrap from linden side?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zero?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|attm? Not clear. Zero is watching the mail stream, but I'm ont seeing much action.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Would be interesting if we could work on the design, and on coding. What I proposed in the last section of the agenda is how I believe VWRAP functionality should have been added to Snowglobe. I keep getting into the hint of an argument with Pixel about the way it was truly hacked (merged) into Snowglobe, instead of VWRAP functionality being decoupled.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think it's hard to make a standards process that leads rather than lags. Hopefully we can do more wiring-together of stuff, cheesy proxies, etc, and then clean it up later.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It hink you need both at once
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|You push on both piles and
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|there was some work from pixel (and other ibm'ers i think) on sg vwrap
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|over time the convrege
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|*they
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but nobody is doing it atm
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lindens got a token rep at vwrap
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif: yeah, but it was merged into SG, and is so complex that even Merov doesn't understand it.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|There's a reluctance to push on the Linden ecosystem without Linden playing
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hurli's doing it, but not too many other things going on...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...that are explicitly tying to vwrap
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|somehow I dont think it woudl be in LL's best interest to lose influence in VWRAP
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:55]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: but if LL don't provide input, why should they expect any influence?''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm planning on another pass on merhing post OGPX code into the openSIm module, as OpenSim settles down toward 0.7
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hurli is trying to do server side of things, but he's helpless since there is no client dev at all
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|alas, that fate keeps moving
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|*date
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, interesting, that'll be good, do you have any hacking help available?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Getting Hurli to talk about what he does seems to be virtually impossible, sad to say. I'm hoping that the Jarilo bridge to #vwrap might help there, as he's loathe to write any descriptions to VWRAP m/l at all, despite saying he would.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|problem with vwrap interop code is not sim-side. it's 1) lack of specs, 2) lack of client support
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:56]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: latif++ ''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Maybe we need a speaker-to-Hurli who can keep the communications more open.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Welll I plan on getting back into coding
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif: lack of specs because we're inventing it as we go. Remember that Zero's OGP was a 5% spec, tops.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, what client will you test it with? :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I can live with the current snowglobe/OGPX merge
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, would be nice to have one or two opensim hackers who are onboard with you to mess with the code. Sorry, that's not my area.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|at least for a while
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And I can draft pixel probably for some stugff as needed
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I get on fine with Hurli, we've had several hour-long discussions in PM. Maybe I can write the text that he doesn't like writing :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the OpenSim dev community is usually quite approachable and helpful in the IRC channels or mailing lists
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But, honestly, I'm going to start with a clean re-merge of the current oGPX stlyle code which should work with the version we had up end of last year
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, what might be a medium-term interop target for your new coding effort? Trying to see where your'e headed short term.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Up for discussion. I'm still negotiating inside my shop how we want to move in the absence of Linden motion
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think the OGP code is still in current OpenSim
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But at a minimum I want to make sure the basix OGP code surives across 0.7
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It will break at the 0.7 line at the moment
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Diva and I chatted a little about that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it's probably broken now
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The problem is 0.7 keeps receeding over the horizon
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha: OGP would be a regression compared to VWRAP
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I dont think anyone is maintaining it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Full of singletons
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It would be OGPX on the client side
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|probalbly al ittle less so on the sim side
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ok. time 4 me to go 2 andrew's oh
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|tc everybody
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|11am, off to OSgrid
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|cya Rex.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|bye :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Cyu Rex
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|cya peoples
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm gonna adjourn also, thanks!!!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|have fun:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|No good reason I can't make sure the OGPX code on OpenSim isn't a superset of what's in ther enow
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|sso, get out of the singletones
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|me too, another meeting to go to... but I'll be connected to groupies chat via my proxy ;)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|see you dahlia :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|bye all :)
|}

AW Groupies

2010-05-04T18:19:05Z

Latha Serevi: /* 2010 meetings */

=Purpose=
Serious technical discussion about Linden Lab's [[Architecture Working Group|Architecture Working Group (AWG)]]. "AW Groupies" is an unofficial, Resident-operated group, though most (all?) members also participate in the AWG.

Invite only (apply in-world to [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]), but the criterion is simple. Show up and contribute to the AWG, at [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]'s office hours, or on the Wiki, or on SL-Dev or in the [irc://irc.freenode.net/#pyogp irc channel] for the [[Pyogp/Client_Lib|Python test client]].

=Activities=
The [[AW_Groupies#Architecture_Working_Group_meetings|main AWG meeting]] is held annually or semi-annually.
We now [[AW_Groupies#In-World_Meetings|meet up to 8 times a week in-world]], counting AW Groupies meeting, Zero's office hours, Which's office hours, Enus's office hours, Whump's office hours and the [[Pyogp#In_World_Meetings|pygop daily meetings]].

Our main focus these days is on the [[Open Grid Protocol]], the [[Open_Grid_Public_Beta]] and the [[Pyogp|pyogp Python test harness]] for protocol testing.

Also members are quite active on the wiki and in the SLDEV mailing list.

A public SVN repository is open to all AW Groupies members here:
* http://openmv.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/archwg/

Contact anyone with root on openmv.org for an account if you are in the AW Groupies group in-world.

==Architecture Working Group meetings==
* [[AWG_Meeting_1|AWG I annual meeting transcript, participants' responses, etc]]
* [[AWG_Meeting_2|AWG II annual meeting transcript, video, participants' responses, etc]]

==In-World Meetings==
===AW Groupies meeting===
Weekly meeting times are:
* '''Mondays''' -------

* '''Tuesdays''' ------ 9:30 AM SLT at [http://slurl.com/secondlife/ThorneBridgeTown/156/129/25 Zha's IBM Island at ThorneBridgeTown] (weekly AWG meeting)
* ------------------ FIRST TUESDAY of the month ONLY: 1 PM SLT at [http://slurl.com/secondlife/Grasmere/171/112/27 Zero Linden's office hours at Grasmere]
* ------------------ Noon SLT [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies#OpenSim__meeting| Open Sim Meeting]

* '''Wednesdays''' -- Suspended until further notice: 1:30 PM SLT @ [http://slurl.com/secondlife/ambleside/228/244/25/?title=Whump%20Linden%27s%20Office Whump Linden's Office Hours] (main meeting for public grid open beta)

* '''Thursdays''' ----- 11 AM SLT at [http://slurl.com/secondlife/Beaumont/149/44/24 Which Linden's office hours at Beaumont] (often AWG-related these days)
* '''Fridays''' --------- 1 PM SLT [http://slurl.com/secondlife/Longfellow/99/97/28 Enus Linden's Office Hours] (starring PyOGP and [[Pyogp#Pic_of_the_Moment|a cast of several bots]])
:
Meetings are scheduled via the "[http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com SL AW Groupies" google calendar]" (though the above schedule is generally more accurate).

* [http://www.google.com/calendar/feeds/pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic XML]
* [http://www.google.com/calendar/ical/pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics ICal]
* Calendar ID: pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4@group.calendar.google.com
* [http://www.google.com/calendar/render?cid=pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com Add to your Google Calendar]

====Meeting Agendas====

Each meeting should have an agenda --- which will be distributed via
* google calendar entry
* in-world notice to the SL "AW Groupies" group
* the [[AW Groupies In-World Meeting Agenda]] wiki page

===OpenSim meeting===
* Tuesdays/Saturdays noon SLT, at Wright Plaza sim in OSGrid. [http://osgrid.org/index.php?page=home&btn=1 Registration Page]

Set [[Client_parameters|client command line options]] to:
:-loginuri http://osgrid.org:8002
:-loginpage http://osgrid.org/loginscreen.php
:-helperuri http://osgrid.org/

===Chat Logs===

Chat logs of the in-world meetings are published and accessible via the links below:

====2007 meetings====
:* September: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/2007-09-28 | 28]]
:* October: [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-01 | 1]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-05 | 5]] [[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2007_Oct_09|9 --Zero's office]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-16| 16]]
:* November: [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-06 | 6]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-13 | 13]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-20| 20]]
====2008 meetings====
:* January: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-01-08|08]]
:*February: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-02-19|19]]
:*April: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-08|08]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-22|22]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-29|29]]
:*May: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-05-20|20]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-05-27|27]]
:*June: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-03|03]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-10|10]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-17|17]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-24|24]]
:*July: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-01|01]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-08| 08]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-15|15]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-22|22]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-29|29]]
:*August: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-05|05]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-12|12]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-19|19]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-26|26]]
:* September [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-09|9]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-16|16]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-23|23]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-30|30]]
:* October [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-07|7]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-14|14]] [[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_October_14|14 --Zero's O.H.]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-28|28]]
:* November [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-11-11|11]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-11-18|18]]
:* December [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-09|9]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-16|16]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-23|23]]
====2009 meetings====
:*January [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-06|6]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-13|13]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-20|20]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-27|27]]
:*February [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-03|3]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-10|10]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-17|17]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-24|24]]
:*March [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-03-03|3]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-03-10|10]]
:*April [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-07|7]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-14|14]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-28|28]]
:*June [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-06-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-06-16|16]]
:*July [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-07-21|21]]
:*September [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-09-15|15]]
:*October [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-10-20|20]]
====2010 meetings====
:*March [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-03-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-03-09|9]]
:*April [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/JoeLindenTPVBrownbag-2010-04-13|13joe]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-04-20|20joshua]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/JoeLindenTPVBrownbag-2010-04-20|20joe]]
:*May [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-05-04|04proxies]]
*
* [[MMOX#Chat_logs|MMOX chat logs]] -- in-world transcripts with non-SL/Opensim participants
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Grid_Interoperability_Chat_Logs All Grid Interoperability chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:AW_Groupies_Transcripts All AW Groupies chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Pyogp_Transcripts All Pyogp chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Open_Grid_Public_Beta_Transcripts All Open Grid Public Beta Transcripts]
*
* [[User:Zero_Linden#Transcripts_of_previous_office_hours|Zero Linden's Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Which_Linden|Which Linden's Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Enus_Linden| Enus Linden Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Whump_Linden| Whump Linden Office Hour Transcripts]]
*
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=chat+log OpenSim chat logs]
* [[Mono/2008-04-04 | mono beta meeting discussion of het-grid]]

(if you post chat logs, you might want to use the [[User:Dr_Scofield/logtransform|sllog2wiki perl script]] to turn them into a more readable wiki table format ready to copy & paste into the chat log page)

Chat logs of AWGroupies meetings should be summarized on the wiki.

==Viewpoint Advocacy Groups==

[[Viewpoint Advocacy Groups]] - groups to focus on specific requirements.
=== AWG-specific VAGs===

* [[Core Grid Services, Protocols, and Structures VAG]]
* [[Event Scalability VAG]]
* [[Geometry and Physics VAG]]
* [[Live Performances VAG]]
* [[Quality Assurance VAG]]
* [[Scalability VAG]]
=== AWG-related VAGs===
* [[Map_API_VAG]]
* [[Multi-Process Client VAG -- draft]]

=Work-In-Progress=

Work-in-progress wiki pages are architecture pages that are (as the name implies ;-)) work in progress. Once the group has reached consensus that a particular topic is "good-to-go" we'll graduate that page to the [[Architecture Working Group|main AWG page]].

==General Concerns==
* [[Scoping]]
* [[Architecture Working Group Glossary|Glossary]]
* [[Use Cases]]
===Open Grid Protocol (OGP)===
====Linden Pages====

====User Pages====

==Communications==
* [[Initial CAPS seed]]
* [[AWG initial flows]]
* [[AWG flows login]]

* [[Mudata]]
* [[Streamlet]]
===Documenting current protocols===
* [[Pyogp|Python test harness for OGP]]
** [[User:Which_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_May_22| Which Linden office hours 22 May 2008]]
====AWG and citizen pages====
* [[Current_login_protocols]]
* [[Current_Sim_Capabilities]]
* [[Example_protocol_code]]
* [[Hegemons_Login_Analysis#Very_simple_C.23__server]]
* [[User:Gareth_Ellison/Supergrid|Litesim grid interop]]
* [[EventQueueGet_CAP| Event Queue Get CAP]]

====Linden Lab pages====
* [[Service_Disruptions|"Satellite's Eye" view of the Second Life architecture from a service disruption POV]]
* [[Message_System_and_Capabilities]]
* [[Viewer_Authentication]]
* [[Viewer_Architecture]]
* [[Protocol]]
* [[LLSD]]
* [[Certified_HTTP_Escrow]]
* [[ImprovedInstantMessage]]
* [[Client_parameters|client command line parameters and stuff]]

====libsecondlife reference pages====
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Login Login page]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Protocol_%28network%29 Protocol page]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Category:Packets packets index]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Movement Movement]

====opensim reference pages====
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Grid_Architecture_Diagram opensim grid architecture diagram]
* [http://opensimulator.org/images/3/3c/OGS1Login_Sequence.jpg login diagram (same general sequence as current LL login)]

=== Future Protocols===
* [[Second_Life_Login_API_Strawman]]
:deprecated in favor of:
* [[Open Grid Protocol]]
** [[SLGOGP_Teleport_Strawman]]
*[[Architecture_Working_Group#Design_Documents | Ongoing next generation protocols documentation effort by Linden Lab]]

=== Possible future directions ===
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenID| OpenID A decentralized single sign-on system]
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yadis| Yardis A digital identity protocol]

==Asset Security and Trust==
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Dale_Innis/Asset_handling_in_OGP Asset Handling in OGP]
* [[Protecting content in an open grid]]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Infinity_Linden/OGP_Trust_Model OGP Trust Model]

==Scaling Issues==
* [[Brainstorming#ANALYSIS:_Region_Subdivision_as_a_scaling_method| Region Subdivision]]
* [[Brainstorming#ANALYSIS:_Scalability_through_reverse_proxies:_the_paravirtual_grid| Reverse Proxies]]
* [[AWG Scalability through per-resident subdivision of the Grid| Resident Subdivision]]
===Group IM===
* [[Message_Queue_Evaluation_Notes| Which Linden's message queue evaluation notes]]

==Other==
* [[Use_Cases#Extended_Capability_Clients|Extended Capability Clients]]

=Thinking-in-Progress=

* Have a look and contribute to the [[Brainstorming|brainstorming]] page.

* It's early days on the [[Multi-Process Client VAG -- draft]], but we would highly appreciate input to help with design choices and direction.
==Misc User Pages==
* Have an AWG idea? Don't know where in the wiki it should be indexed? Make sure that folks can find it by adding it to the [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:AW_Groupies_User_Pages AW_Groupies_User_Pages] Add: <nowiki>'[[Category:AW Groupies User Pages]]'</nowiki> to the end of your user page.

=External Resources=

Stuff of interest to or in connection with the [[AW Groupies]] or the [[Architecture Working Group]]:

* [[Developer_communication_tools|Developer Communication Tools (Linden Lab)]]
* [[SLDev|SLDev Main Page]]
* [[Open_Grid_Public_Beta]]
* [[Pyogp]] {Linden Labs/ AWG Python-based protocols testing library)
*
* [http://openmv.org/ OpenMetaverse Home]
**[http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Main_Page libsecondlife (libsl) homepage]
**[http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page opensim homepage]
**[http://openviewer.org openviewer homepage]
**[http://code.google.com/p/openmetaverse/wiki/SimianGrid SimianGrid]
*[http://www.osgrid.org OSGrid: open/non-profit OpenSim based grid]
* [http://www.realxtend.org/ realxtend homepage]
*
* [http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/22428.wss IBM PR re: AWG]

Latha's quick list of interop relevant VW sites, 3/30/2010
* http://tools.ietf.org/wg/vwrap/
* http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page
* http://openwonderland.org/
* http://www.realxtend.org/
* http://code.google.com/p/openmetaverse/wiki/SimianGrid
* http://www.opencobalt.org/
* http://www.solipsis.org/
* http://www.web3d.org/

==Second Life Viewers==
Various viewers compatible with Second Life.

::*Note: the "Derived 3rd-party clients" page includes a few non GPL viewers plus some hybrids. I'll try to come up with a better way to index this stuff. [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]
::*Yeah, that redirect of "Alternate_viewers" to "Downloads" is nuts, and the "Downloads" page itself seems to have to have a variety of things bundled together --- it needs splitting. But don't split it by license, that's precisely what I sought to eliminate in this section's re-org. It makes no sense to classify clients by license, since GPL'd clients don't necessarily have anything to do with Linden's code, just like BSD clients don't necessarily have anything to do with libomv. It does make sense to keep a list of Linden-derived clients though, since they're all more alike than not alike, and share both code and license encumbrance. [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]] 01:28, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

===Viewers based on the Linden Lab GPL code (C++)===

*[http://secondlife.com/support/downloads.php Main Second Life viewer/client]
:The main (official) Second Life viewer, produced by Linden Lab with the help of patches submitted by the community, and available for Linux, Mac and Windows.

*[[Snowglobe|Snowglobe]]

:A new version of the Second Life client in a public repository where Linden Lab permits direct committing from select community members alongside daily Linden work. There is also a new build system to keep this version continuously building when new submissions are received, with new builds available to everyone. This version will become available as an alternative Linden download alongside the main SL client, once it is sufficiently stable.

*[[Alternate_viewers|Derived 3rd-party clients]] (''currently links to a mixed "Downloads" page, to be fixed'')
:A large list of clients (not necessarily 3D) developed in the free and open-source community using GPL code from the above two official viewers.

===Viewers based on the libomv/libsl code (C#)===

* [http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/idealistviewer/ Idealist]
:IdealistViewer is a new cross-platform viewer based on the Irrlicht engine, PrimMesher, and LibOpenmetaverse. It can either use the Second Life protocols as provided by LibOpenmetaverse or the MXP protocol. Since it uses the Irrlicht engine it can simultaneously display prim/sculptie content and objects and animated meshes/avatars from a wide variety of sources such as Collada, .OBJ, DirectX, and Blitz3D files. It is not derived from the LL GPL viewer and is made available under BSD style licensing. It is designed to work with OpenSimulator but may also work with Second Life. It is written in the C# language.

* [http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/lookingglass/ LookingGlass]
:LookingGlass viewer is a modular viewer with pluggable communication and rendering engines. Initial communication plugin uses LibOpenMetaverse and the initial rendering plugin uses PrimMesher and Ogre. It is written in C# and BSD licensed. Home site at http://lookingglassviewer.org/ .

===Viewers based on other libraries (python, C, etc)===

* [[Pyogp]]
: Pyogp is an open source project between Linden Lab and the Architecture Working Group (AWG) to support testing the (Open Grid Protocol (OGP). Written in Python, Pyogp will consist initially of a client library and test functionality to enable testing OGP-enabled virtual worlds such as Second Life and compatible OpenSim implementations. These components will expand as the effort matures. Pyogp is released under the Apache v2 license.

==Mailing Lists==
* [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo List of Linden Lab mailing lists]
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sldev SLDEV] Main mailing list for SL developers
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gridnauts gridnauts] Mailing list for participants in Open Grid Public Beta
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pyogp PyOGP] Mailing List for Python-based client library and test harness for the Open Grid Protocols
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Resources#Mailing_Lists libsecondlife]
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page opensim]
* [http://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/openviewer-dev openviewer]
* [http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/vwrap/current/maillist.html VWRAP]

==IRC==
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#opensl
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#opensl-jira (real time updates of entries to jira.secondlife.com)
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#opensl-svn (updates of the the public SVN)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#opensim * irc://irc.freenode.net/#opensim-dev
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#libomv * irc://irc.efnet.net/#libomv-dev
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#openviewer * irc://irc.freenode.net/#openviewer-dev
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#realxtend (Finnish language but can handle English if needed)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#pyogp (Python test harness/pyogp Second LIfe library irc)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#gridnauts (Open Grid Public Beta irc)

==Forums==
* [http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend| realXtend google forum]

==Capabilities==

* [http://www.cap-lore.com/CapTheory/index.html Capabilities theory and practice]
* [http://wiki.erights.org/wiki/Zooko%27s_triangle Zook's Triangle index] -- short list of interesting articles about naming and capabilties
* [http://www.cs.washington.edu/homes/levy/capabook/ Capability-based Systems by Henry Levy] --online copy of 1984 book on early implementations of capabilities systems
* [http://www.erights.org/ E language home] [https://www.cypherpunks.to/erights/ E language home mirror] [http://wiki.erights.org/ E wiki] --computer language dedicated to handling distributed trust issues
** [https://www.cypherpunks.to/erights/elib/capability/index.html Capability Computation]
** irc://irc.freenode.net/#erights
** [http://www.eros-os.org/mailman/listinfo/e-lang E language mailing list]
* [http://www.eros-os.org/mailman/listinfo/cap-talk mailing list for capability systems]
* [http://mscheffler.wordpress.com/2008/01/20/diploma/ blog and thesis on caps in virtual worlds Martin Scheffler]
* [http://homepage.mac.com/kpreid/elang/den.html Cap-based MUD by Kevin Reid] --written in E
* [http://www.fudco.com/chip/lessons.html discussion of ancient (Commodore 64!) video game that used capabilities]

==Misc==

* [http://blog.signpostmarv.name/2008/07/29/non-unique-region-names-within-the-confines-of-a-single-grid-yay-or-nay/ non-unique region names within the confines of a single grid, yay or nay ?]
* [http://blog.signpostmarv.name/2008/01/04/map-api-in-new-location/ discussion of new Map API and related issues]
* [http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source Open Source Portal] --index to all things Open Source for Linden Lab

=Members=

Founder [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]

[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]

[[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]

[[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]

[[User:Dr Scofield|Dr Scofield]]

[[User:Burhop Piccard|Burhop Piccard]]

[[User:Vicero Lambert|Vicero Lambert]]

[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]

[[User:Silicon Plunkett|Silicon Plunkett]]

[[User:Dale Innis|Dale Innis]]

[[Category:Architecture Working Group]]
[[Category:Grid_Interoperability]]
[[Category:AW Groupies]]
[[Category:MMOX]]

AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2010-05-04

2010-05-04T18:16:43Z

Latha Serevi: Created page with '{| Text chat transcript from Groupies meeting. Latha Serevi hosted the discussion on "proxy-based interop". |- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;" | [08:41] |...'

{|
Text chat transcript from Groupies meeting.

Latha Serevi hosted the discussion on "proxy-based interop".

|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [08:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yawn, stretch. Will get coffee and check the agenda page. Am logged in via Par + SG2 in keeping with the theme.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [08:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|'Morning
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [08:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yo
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [08:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Roland Riddler|Roland Riddler]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|heyas
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [08:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hiya Roland
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [08:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hi Latha, Sai
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [08:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Did you read my expanded agenda page, Latha?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [08:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Just did, yes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [08:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I like the proxies (in fact I'm using one right now from InWorldz), but it's an unwieldy solution in its normal guise. I think it needs the architectural improvement I suggested on the page.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [08:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hey Ms O
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [08:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|heya sai
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [08:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|are we meeting this mornnig?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [08:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|far as I know
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [08:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|did zha announce an agenda?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [08:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|BTW, lots of experimentation with IRC/Jabber bridges in group chat. You've been notified
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [08:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yup, we have an agenda, basically Latha's day today
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [08:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|coolies. lisa/roo should be notified as well.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [08:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|last i heard, i was going to present on extensibility in vwrap
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [08:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Not heard of that. Maybe Zha's trying to cram both in, doesn't seem like a good idea though, they're each big topics.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [08:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ah. okay. guess my talk was canceled
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [08:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Oh, sorry, Meadhbh, I wonder if Zha and I got our signals crossed?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [08:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Maybe "next week's" meant something different to each of us.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [08:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i put my talk on the schedule two weeks ago afte josh's talk
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Meadhbh, sorry, had no idea there was a conflict. Given that we've been relaying IRC and Jabber like maniacs over the weekend and working up a head of steam on my topic of proxy-based interop ... it might be an unruly crowd if we do yours today. Are you inclined to bump yours to next week, or to do a two-parter, or to bump mine?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|let's just bump mine.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i'm coming off a cold anyway
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so my brainisn't completely here at the moment
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks, appreciate it.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Now I just hope a couple of my "special guests" show up. ;-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|LO: I'm sorta awake for a while. Doing usual spam
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|can you give me a one-liner description to include, Latha?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"special guests" sounds omninous
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ominous
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Sai, --> the Tuesday 9:30 groupies meeting will be hosted by Latha Serevi on the theme of "proxy-based interop"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|KK
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|no one has added a spellchecker to the client yet?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I specially invited Latif, Dahlia, Dzonatas, and the speciallest guest, LordGregGreg.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Although Greg didn't say he'd show, just grumbled about the early hour. ;-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:08]
| colspan="2"|''Meadhbh Oh can't touch the client for another couple months. i'm beginning to hate the ramifications of the GPL''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|https://wiki.secondlife.com/w/index.php?title=AW_Groupies_In-World_Meeting_Agenda
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|remind him it's 5:30PM somewhere
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It's not a ramification of the GPL. Opensim's restriction is specific to LL code.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|we can put a gin and tonic in his hand, that might make the early hour more palatable
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|In keeping with the recent trend, I'm relaying local chat at TBT to irc://irc.quickfox.net/groupies for this morning.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Cool
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:15]
| colspan="2"|''LathaSerevi waves ''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|/names
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hiya Zha :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:David Valerian|David Valerian]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hi :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Roland Riddler|Roland Riddler]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|heyas
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha do you need to rez anything to present on? Or just chat?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:23]
| colspan="2"|''Wut waves to everyone in TBT''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kevin Paisley|Kevin Paisley]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|giggles at roland checking his pits
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Roland Riddler|Roland Riddler]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|;-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hola
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hiya Wut!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, thanks, it'll just be text chat.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:24]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: ooh, it's working :)''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|/
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Super
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:24]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry likes when other people present, as its easy on the fingers''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:24]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: hehe ''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It's been an interesting week for chat interop. Just imagine when we start doing object interop :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Next week, the mea, who's last few letters are hard to type will be talking abot future proofing VWRAP
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yeah, which reminds me
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hey, Zha, how about adding a first line to the groupies charter now, "NOTE: group chat may be relayed outside SL."
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:25]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry ponders''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I could do that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it was fun and all to play with the bridge
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|seems like fair warning.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I put that in the VWRAP Chat group.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but it's up to Zha to approvie if we wanted it run on a more permanent basis
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Worse still, it would be nice if people fromt he outside refrained from egreigous nastiness
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I like havbing it up
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"Membership implies consent". That was easy because no retrospective issues there, since it was a new group.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, we've set up me and MichelleZ as chan-ops on the IRC, so we could always "boot" the relay bot, I think, if problems happened.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|We're working out the social consequences as we go.,..
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think its good to have the low cost way of people following
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...but it's sure educational.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and besides why should only SL people here the insanely odd discussions that come up?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Ahuva! You're leaving dents in my grass!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|We had our first pain-in-the-butt last night (hi, Kevin!), just to remind us that we'll have to be aware of these things.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Ahuva, you;re hopping
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kevin Paisley|Kevin Paisley]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and going underground :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hey Dahlia
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Woah, Sparkly metallic Dahlia
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hiya Dahlia :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hi :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ahuva Heliosense|Ahuva Heliosense]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|*grin* i dont weight that much, Zha, the grass will recover
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|was there a rolling restart today?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|/Nice glossy texturing on the Dahlia Bot
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ahuva Heliosense|Ahuva Heliosense]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|everyone but Dahlia and Zha are clouds for me :(
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|is dahliabot saluting or biting her fingernails?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|trying to make my avatar look like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maschinenmensch
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Nicely classical
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|greetings everybody
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:31]
| colspan="2"|''Meadhbh Oh starts humming kraftwerk to herself at the mention of the man machine''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hola rex
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kevin Paisley|Kevin Paisley]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ahoy rex
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:31]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: hiya rex''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:31]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry goes looking for a boat''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Roland Riddler|Roland Riddler]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hi
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hi meadhbh, kevin, wut, roland
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|OK, I'm going to update the charter to mention that there may be bridging to outside channels
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Cool Zha
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha, should I mention you as admin on the chats outside SL?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, I wouldn't ... just leave it as "may be relayed"...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Sounds good
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...but atm Latif, me, and MichelleZ are chanops
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:33]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry digs into the 2.01 group ui, hopeing to emerge with an updated charter within the hour''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|actually, i extended the list... so on ic, myself, latha, dahlia, robin (michellez) and hermit can moderate
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:33]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: pleasant though, this is much less network intensive than radegast''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Topic for today is at https://wiki.secondlife.com/w/index.php?title=AW_Groupies_In-World_Meeting_Agenda . My outline of today's topic is the first two sections.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|irc*
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|many brave souls have dissapeared that way, zha:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:34]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry updates the charter''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:David Valerian|David Valerian]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Interesting, I never knew this was possible
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|brb. have to put coins in the meter
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"Please be aware your words may travel far."
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|u should have said: be aware that u will find yourself on google:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well that's true of every word typed spoken, or otherwise encoded, isn't it?
??? [09:36] Wut: :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Except on apple Ipads in flash ;-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|nope
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|FYI, the second youtube video listed on http://code.google.com/p/par/ is greg's 5 minute overview video of Par.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the "dark web"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well, I sort of assume every single bit of content I ever create sooner or later will be indexed on google. It saves being surprised
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha, QuickFox has gone red. I guess that's "bad"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Ah, green again
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:37]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: hmm. i can still hear you''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It just hiccups red now and then but doens't seem to lose anything
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hmm.. there's also archive.org
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ok, a couple more minutes and I think Latha can start
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:38]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: yep, a godsend''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:38]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry debates tossing a stick''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:David Valerian|David Valerian]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Awesome, I'm really looking forward to this discussion
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:38]
| colspan="2"|''Morgaine Dinova winds up Latha's tail''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm thinking maybe I'll try typing real fast for about 5 minutes to get us started.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(I almost prepared some stuff ahead, but didn't)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:39]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry laughs''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|before we start let me just say that at the coffee shop i'm at, they're playing a reggae version of pink floyd's dark side of the moon.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it really works
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:39]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: hehe ''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|is it still in synch with Wizard of OZ?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kevin Paisley|Kevin Paisley]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|is this a coffee shop or one of those weed smoking joints in NL? :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:David Valerian|David Valerian]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ø*ø LooOOoL ø*ø
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So.. as we get going... The usual disclaimer applies
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|no. it's a coffee shop in sandta cruz, so you have to go outside to smoke weed
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|This is an informal open meeting, whatyou say here will sooner or later likely beposted to the SL wiki by the Kuhn Bot
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the kuhn bot sticks his tongue out
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Coincidentally I'm at the coffee station in the InWorldz grid. Nice social atmosphere.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Speak and expect to be public
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|With that out of the way, Latha's going to type like a caffine crazed canine to start the discussion
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Okay, here goes.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:David Valerian|David Valerian]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Meeting with a dog in the park, this is awesome, haha!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The outline I wrote is the first two sections of https://wiki.secondlife.com/w/index.php?title=AW_Groupies_In-World_Meeting_Agenda
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|This is largely prompted by this week's lively action
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|started when Latif did an awesome job hooking up
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|an IRC client to Radegast and doing "agent style bridging"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:42]
| colspan="2"|''SpinkerKicker Payer v1.04: $30 SpinkerKicker - Latha Serevi, you were KICKED from slot 5 by Roxy Emsbury! You won L$111!''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(i.e. a bot acts like a client on each VW of interest and relays chat)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|When I learned of Dahlia's proxy based approach
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(XMPP relay based on a plugin to gridproxy)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it occurred to me that I wanted to understand the proxy-based approachm,
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|, its limitations and advantages.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm thinking of this on two levels.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm currently on Dahlia's proxy from InWorldz.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|In the longer term, VWRAP seems to be moving
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|toward a federation style model, where a client
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|connects to lots of diverse services.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The question there is, will some of those services be dressed-up by proxies.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But the short term, and very interesting case, is libomv based proxying
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|of a SL packet stream.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Very interesting because we have practical and useful tools for doing it now.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...and can therefore dress-up any SL client.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|with the subset of capabilities that can be added to a proxy.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Some things would seem difficult to do that way, but many are do-able.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Dahlia's XMPP proxy is a clear case --
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|just have a configurable Jabber client hiding in a proxy layer, and patch it into group-chat logic
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...using chat commands like "/jabber init" to control the proxy.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|LordGregGreg's Par is a really wildly interesting example.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|He's added all sorts of crazy Emerald stuff into a proxy that can be used by any viewer.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|e.g. right now I'm using Par and SG2.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So, I get "viewer ID" in my viewer 2, etc.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(pause, deep breath)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Any questions or comments so far on my intro?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Nope :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The second tie-in I'm making is to "extensible viewers".
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|sounds pretty straightforward to me
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|looks that there r 2 distinct ways: by proxy, and using a bot
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Rex, the 3rd is viewer plugins, and the 4th is REST viewer services like SNOW-375.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm pursuing the line of thought that says...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:48]
| colspan="2"|''SpinkerKicker Payer v1.04: $30 SpinkerKicker - Latha Serevi, you were KICKED from slot 4 by Damian Dertzer! You won L$165!''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|... proxies are one way to dress up the viewer-server interaction....
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...but any kind of viewer enhancement is another.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|... and particularly the loosely-coup-led-viewer idea.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|has any one looked to see if viewer 2 and snowglobe is open to cookie attack or tracking ?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|xstorm, I"m going to steamroller that q.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|loosely coup?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|if u use shared media, u bet u can be tracked
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|loosely coupled viewer -- e.g. Dzonatas's.
??? [09:49] Wut: :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:49]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: SNOW-375 is rather fun''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Dzonatas's SNOW-375 idea, which I don't completely love,
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...is to define an API that the viewer provides to other loosely coupled viewer services.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...via HTTP
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Loose coupling is the ONLY idea that's remotely sensible. There are lots of ways to achieve it, not just Dzon's.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So, if Dzonatas writes some code that provides chat messages to HTTP, then I can write a separate window chat client.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I kinda like that idea if it becomes widespread and it allows the same access that I'm using in gridproxy now
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|looks like s375 can be implemented via viewer plugin
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Taken to its extreme, you would have a "headless thick client" that does all the sim interaction and provides not a gui, but HOOKS into which other guis dip.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha++
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|fThen it starts to look like a fancy proxy (!)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I might mention the server-side rendering here.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If you're on a smartphone, what you'd like in between you and SL
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The body of the viewer should actually have no UI at all, just an API to which you can hook any number of alternative UIs.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...is pretty much a full viewer that provides ways for your smartphone to show you w2hat's going on.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...and which renders and controls your 3-d view so your smartphone doesn't have to.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Let me check my outline at https://wiki.secondlife.com/w/index.php?title=AW_Groupies_In-World_Meeting_Agenda and see if I've covered the main points I had prepared.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:53]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: or it could find a middle ground and preprocess the scene into simple OpenGL ES commands''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I seem to have covered my bullet points.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So, that's the theme for today -- how proxies fit into the overall ecosystem of VW interactionsl,
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:53]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: having already culled, and maybe integrated motion etc''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|coolies!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|with particular attention to the interesting set of RIGHT THIS MONTH proxies using SL packet based libomv approaches.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If LordGregGreg shows up, he'd be a really interesting addition to the chat.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...because he has played some really silly proxy tricks.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I should say that I've used Dahlia's jabber plugin for gridproxy A LOT, and generally like it. It does have issues however, which I've described in the agenda, plus solutions for them.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|if all messages between viewer and sim r encrypted, then proxies r kind of out of the question
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Rex, yes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...and indeed, it's a little twisted to construct a system...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...where the viewer DOESNT KNOW that features are being added.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|should i comment not that at one time the idea fro enhancing inworld IM was to speak OGP CHAT between the client and a proxy that implemented the sim parts of text chat
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But of course that has the advantage that the viewer doesn't ne3ed to be changed, or even under our contorl.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|s/not/now/
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|even now in emerald u can have encrypted chat
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Rex - encrypted chat is a good example.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|also. if the proxy is local, it's pretty trivial for it to peek into the memory space of another program to extract the key material
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...particularly since Par adds encrypted chat to an arbitrary client via proxy!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|if it's remote, just have the proxy act as a MitM
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|u need also to have the same algorithm
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I wonder how much would break if you strung two Par proxies together in series. Probably just about everythying.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|encrypted chat can open up a lot of problems for a company
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i.e. Par isn't just a clean filter.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think there are other gridproxy based plugins that are purer filters of the SL packet stream.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|a lto of companies are down with encrypted chat, as long as a trusted central authority can peek when they need to
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Dahlia, any comment at this point?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Peeking into another process's memory space is an extraordinarily bad idea, even if feasible
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|well I havent really prepared anything, but I can briefly describe the jabber proxy and/or answer questions
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(whoa, lost IRC bridge to quickfox
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:58]
| colspan="2"|''Commy: (Proprietary version) SL->IRC: Channel: #groupies''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:58]
| colspan="2"|''Commy: (Proprietary version) SL->IRC: Password: interop''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:58]
| colspan="2"|''Commy: (Proprietary version) SL->IRC: Max HTTP requests per second: 1''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:58]
| colspan="2"|''Commy: (Proprietary version) SL->IRC: Throttle delay: 210''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:58]
| colspan="2"|''Commy: (Proprietary version) SL->IRC: Loaded settings from notecard, starting.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the problem is viewers like emerald has encrypted chat that is made so now one can view it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(had to reset the bridge, was a network hiccup of some kind)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lets wait a few sec for quickfox to restart
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I've been using gridproxy for quite a while to explore the SL protocol and I wanted to test possible ways of adding group chat to OpenSim
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...listenst to Dahlia and thinks...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|at one time I wanted to see how a jabber enabled client could work for interop or group chat
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but I use many different clients and I dont build my own LL based clients
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so I coded up a proxy that allows an IM window in a normal client to connect to a dummy IM session in a proxy that runs between my viewer and SL/OpenSim
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(lagg)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and that dummy IM session connects to a jabber chat room
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:02]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: aha, you're all back again :)''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|wtf, two messages lost (long ones)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|when a message comes thru, a new IM tab appears and all the chat from that room is available in that tab
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|just like a normal group chat tab
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Jonathan Yap|Jonathan Yap]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|How are you capturing the arriving sl IMs?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|given that the jabber server is a separate entity from SL or OpenSim it doesnt matter where I am logged in, I can still access the same room
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|any questions?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Nope. Works fine.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I find it interseting that Emerald does the similar thing (chat relay to IRC) as a compilied-in addon, that ends up looking about the same. Greg was saying that he might rather do it as a proxy next time.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so I released the code as a LGPL licensed plugin for the libomv gridproxy and it's available here: http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/jabberimproxy/
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And of course there's Latif's approach to bridging, that has a separate agent connect to both worlds and do the relay.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i don't think emerald relays, just basically adds irc client to viewer
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif, you're right
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|not that it's really intended for developers and it's not user friendly at all
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I've added to the agenda some ideas on how to make it user-friendly.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine's ideas are on how to make the proxy act more like a plugin, I think.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lafif. u run those bots locally on you computer?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I wish diva was here, she has her "grider" project which takes proxy based interop to a higher level
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Rex, on a server actually
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|An interesting alternative is the way Par works -- you start it, and it starts your viewer. It's configuration free and easy, worked surprisingly well.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I asked her to come but I think she had a conflict in her schedule
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yep. The general idea is that the main viewer should act as the networking endpoint, to adhere to the principle of least surprise for users.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i home some one reads the US-CERT some time
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|im off to nap
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|laterz
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:07]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: laters ''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|tc xstorm
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|bye :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It can then route stuff in and out of proxy processes, without them being IP routers.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine, that would avoid the hackiness of the current libomv reverse engineering...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...but would impose a requirement on the viewer...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|also. there's no reason a CALM message couldn't point you to a proxy
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I've also often considered that gridproxy + plugins is somewhat analogous to the multi-process viewer architecture described on the SL wiki
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|How much have you looked at any ways of "prooving" people are who they say they are across the boundary
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, that's a worthy topic, but I suggest maybe for another time?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hmm.. hmm... yuo SHOULD be able to have a proxy that speaks VWRAP on one side and LLLP on the otehr
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Sure.. just curious
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i.e. it's an obvious next step for our IRC and XMPP bridging thing
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Question: can SNOW-375 be implemented at the proxy level? Might have to be a thick viewer-like proxy in order to be able to expose the right API.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The LL viewers isn't a fixed point. It should be possible to get a transparent proxy thread into Snowglobe as a prototype, and in principle from there it could get into the main SL viewer.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|well I believe XMPP can support some form of authentication, but I dont know the details
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine++
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...but we'll have to define how a filtering proxy works if it's not at the packet level...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...will there be multiple "kinds"?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i.e. an api for chat proxies, an api for 3-d munging proxies?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha: that question applies MUCH more widely, to interop between worlds in general :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Question, who has tried Par? If you haven't, may I suggest you watch the 2nd video at http://code.google.com/p/par/ to see what Greg's up to?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(I don't mean right this minute)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I tried it around a year ago, it had some fun features
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It applies in RL too. When you speak on the phone with someone, you don't really know who you're speaking to, unless it's someone from a small circle of people whose voices you know. And even then ...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|F'rinstance, he adds a radar feature to the proxy ... but then needs to load up an in-world scripted object in order to do most features.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I borrowed the sit anywhere idea for my personal proxy
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|doubleclick teleport is hacked on top of the "navigate to this spot" packet.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(I think)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(i.e. Par could only do doubleclick TP because a similar feature was in most viewers already)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hey dahlia. how many man hours did your proxy take you to develop? roughly?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|really not many as I was already familiar with most of what was needed
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|maybe a couple days
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|you mean all of gridproxy, or jabber plugin for it?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Notice that when implemented as in the last section of the agenda, the same mechanism supports both true proxy processes (filters) and also backend extension plugins. No need for two different systems.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|just the jabber plugin
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine, are you glossing over a lot of complexity in how the plugin APIs need to be defined?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I haven't referred to API at all, other than mentioning SNOW-375 as a possibility
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I have another plugin that filters group, IM, and normal chat and vectors it off to a personal XMPP server, and I use it so I can have a large-font chat window on another screen
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hmm.i really should do an auth proxy that knows vwrap auth off one side and XMLRPC out the other
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Only referring to the routing architecture at this point.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Right, I"m just concerned that if we take the plugin approach, somehow all the viewer creators have to agree.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|just realized i could do it without touching the client
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so I borrowed some code from that proxy
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|gridproxy is about 4 years old now, its main initial purpose was to be a tool for reverse engineer SL protocol, way back when, but as you can see with par and dahlia's work it found many other interesting uses
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|since pixel has been doing a good job on client stuff for vwrap
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha: not really necessary to find agreement. Viewer developers will pick it up if it's good, and won't if it's bad. Agreeing in advance of knowing whether it's a good idea is probably not useful. Let it speak for itself.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Meadhbh, that work seem to have stalled
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|crap, my chat isn't going thru
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|right. cause there's no one to manage vaak since i left
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|One HUGE advantage of the short-term libomv packet proxy approach
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|if there was a proxy that could do it, i bet i could ask nice and convince her to spentd a little time on it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|dammit
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|wtf.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|some things I say just won't go thru.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Meadhbh, jhurliman asked, was told pixel is working on other projects now
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|big brother linden may be watching?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|nobody is working on anything vwrap related client side
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(that i know of)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:20]
| colspan="2"|''LathaSerevi: Maybe I'll type over here for a while.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|okay. well we code the proxy to use the version of VWRAP /OGP auth that's already in the viewer
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:20]
| colspan="2"|''LathaSerevi: \ ''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|then we loop around, make a diff between OGP and VWRAP and ask someone to work on it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Shall we take a moment on the long-term view of proxies?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|that would be good, I think
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|One thought is, they're a hiccup, a dinosaur.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm thinking that a better answer than proxies, in the longer term, might be a flexible loosely coupled client, with an API of some kind, that talks VWRAP to a federation of services. Proxies, if any, would be more narrowly focused.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:21]
| colspan="2"|''Wut nods ''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well as Dahlia pointed out, proxies are just a limited form of the multi-process client.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:22]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: on the other hand, proxies would be a powerful research vehical''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|However, that clean-sounding claim I just made may well be crap.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha, in my view, all this talk about proxies is because of (lack of) progress of vwrap, or "the real interop"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:David Valerian|David Valerian]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I have to go, There is en emergency that I need to tend to. Will the rest of this discussion be available on the Wiki for later viewing?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:22]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: yep ''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and people want to communicate across world boundaries
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|we'll make it so, David, seeya
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|cheers david
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|gridproxy is an amazing research tool but has some limitations
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:22]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: tc david''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|tc
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:David Valerian|David Valerian]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Awesome, Bye bye
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|vwrap is going to take a while
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it's not an overnight thign
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif, I think you're falling for the clean fallacy. Proxies seem less clean, because they're not explicitly recognized as such by the viewer code ... but that's also their strength, right?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|everyone has to get their say on the list
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|for one, it's lack of user friendliness... though there have been attempts to make it friendlier
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|etc etc
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i can't work on simian grid for another three months
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If we insist on clean interaction with all sides knowing what's going on, there's a huge coordination problem.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Meadhbh, "overnight"... i mean a solution that takes less than a decade
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|linden seems to have put it on mothballs for another 6 months
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|you have to move on internet time
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If we allow various endpoints to be cluelessly participating ...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|considering the fact that a decade hasn't expired since the formation of the working group, that's kind of an insulting statement
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|using a given protocol, and allow proxies to play evil games
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|okay. so latif won't be participating. okay
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|... with them, mashups are more possible
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|there's no requirement that you do
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Meadhbh, awg -> ogp -> vwrap is two years already, isn't it?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and yeah. i get it, if there's activity, you might be more interested
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha: I think you'll find that self-organization works fine, without prior all-round agreement. Jarilo is a good example, as was Hypergrid.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|awg != ogp
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ogp != vwrap
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|really? gee
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|There's a clear progression
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but they are not coupled
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and also, if you're counting in binary then two years is a decade, perhaps
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Meadhbh and Latif, please take a one minute timeout. :_o
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(mostly kidding)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|what's that, Zha?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Meadhbh, I for the two years of effort, we got a login draft, 8 years left to complete something that has an actual client and grid to connect to
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:27]
| colspan="2"|''Latha Serevi kicks Latif''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|latif's point is valid... though i find the way it was made slightly insulting
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|We spent a long time giving VWRAP a wider remit than OGP ever had, so what was said above is quite right.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|There is a defintie progressino of ideas fromt heo ne to the next
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yes. wow. look at all the work you put into vaak, latif
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:27]
| colspan="2"|''Latha Serevi kicks Meadhbh''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|how much time did _you_ spend on it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:27]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: okay i'm not liking the tone of this''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hey!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Easy peeps
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yeah. i'll argue with latif offline
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|or out of band
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:28]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: yeah, if you could''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, what progression?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i'll totally agree with the statement, we havet o move faster on the vwrap sude though
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Or not at all, since the past of OGP is irrelevant. VWRAP is a different kettle of fish.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|s/sude/side/
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Any other summary style comments from folks? Perhaps we're winding down slightly early at a natural stopping point?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha: last two sections of agenda
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|What other problems were there with the proxy approach?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I only reeled off a few, no doubt there are others.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|no. i think it was a pretty good discussion
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|To me, the main limitation is that it's a packet mangling approach, so can't really initiate new stuff.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the style seemed about normal for a groupies meeting
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|well it's not a common way to program things
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the common problems section...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:31]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: it gives you some options, ultimately we're going to need a test server that we can extend''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|To me, the main advantage is that it leaves the endpoints untouched, so is great for quick-n-dirty adapters.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha: only the pure proxy filter is a packet mangling approach, Plan B in the agenda doesn't have that restriction
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i think a lot of it has to do with user friendliness
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but there is one nice advantage, it works with any viewer
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but i could imagine you could get a pre-packaged viewer + proxy
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|to make it nice and easy
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so when you start it it does what par does basically
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Dahlia: true, but another way of restating that is "Its is limited by the capabilities of viewers".
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|starts the proxy which in turn auto starts the viewer
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it's at least another tool in the toolkit. latif, if it doesn't work on a friendliness basis, maybe there's work that can be done to improve it, or maybe it's a solution for specific niche applications
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:32]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: and by the capabilities of the servers...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and wooptie you got yourself proxy based interop viewer
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif: indeed. In other words, the proxy *IS* the viewer, and the viewer becomes its plugin :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine, I find your proposal to dilute the "proxy" notion into more of a "plugin" notion, so it becomes a less clear idea to me.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Im not sure Morgaine, it also enables new capabilities in viewers
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I like how the libomv proxy so clearly elucidates the pros and cons of a raw proxy approach.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morg, exactly
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and you can have proxy window that manages plugins, etc, a-la par
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha: the problems with proxies actually stem from it being an IP router, not from it being refactored functionality. What I'm doing is keeping the benefits while losing the problems of the proxy approach.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Robin made a nice little proxy program that makes it more user friendly, her "tray proxy"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine, I just think that you're losing the most important benefit: universality. I can't just take any old client and add to it, I have to add a plugin infrastructure and recompile.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(I realize the hope is that every viewer will have such a thing)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha: universaiity is a PROBLEM. It means you can't advance, because you're limited by the need for backwards compatibility.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|!!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Oh, hey, I think I have one more important-feeling idea to bring up.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Par is a "thin" proxy. SNOW-375, when taken to an extreme, would be a "thick" proxy more like a headless viewer.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|("thick" meaning has more state, controls more of the sim interaction, etc)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Is this making sense?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yup
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:37]
| colspan="2"|''Wut nods ''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Should we think of a "thick" user-agent, headless, as something to shoot for?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|somewhat
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:37]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: yes ''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:38]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: with a headless user agent, we can worry about 3d interaction as a separate project''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:38]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: which i'm quite happy to set up''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Perhaps "thick" ought to be replaced by a more technical term, something about functionality
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:38]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: the biggest issue i'm having with even starting a viewer is i'd rather do it from scratch, and dealing with all the SL bums and crocks is a pain :)''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I've often wanted the SL renderer to be a self contained component licensed as LGPL
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Remove the UI. What else can be removed?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Dahlia++
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:39]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: Dahlia, agreed''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:39]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: plus that way you can swap in other renderer projects''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|that'll never happen of course :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Wut: latif|Wut: latif]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hush :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|not with the linden viewer anyway
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And I wonder if the user-agent (what we think of as the innards of the viewer) should be a lot less thick than it currently is, or not. Will it have the local notion of the current neighborhood scenegraph in it?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:39]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: never with the linden viewer, naturally ;)''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Worth noting that if the UI is removed from the thick client, the V2.0 problems disappear at a stroke too ^_^
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|dahlia. u need an interface:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I don' tthink that the vwrap spec will necrssarily require it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:40]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: Morg++ ''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(i.e. there's a notion that the sim streams updates to our local box. so, does the thick user-agent act as the local endpoint for that streaming, and keep a notion of VW state?)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:40]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: it depends how hairy it is''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it has to
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Rex, if the renderer was a component then interface design would be much more flexible
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:41]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: it could transform and forward messages specific to the renderer, for e.g.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So, a useful focal point is "the local-box software component that maintains local VW state". A proxy sits on the sim-side of that component; the UI sits on the user-side of it.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|using uml to design a 3d renderer component...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:42]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: something like that. i'm not particularly keen on faffing around in the user-agent to manage the scenegraph, that's sort of the renderer's job''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm not even sure the renderer process should be the endpoint. The current monolithic design doesn't allow for multiple views for example. Really in MVC terminology, the endpoint should be the Model, not the View.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:42]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: nono, the renderer needn't be an endpoint''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Agreed, Morgaine, renderer is on the viewer-side of the "local state maintaining" component.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|**user-side
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:43]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: but it needs to keep its latency to a minimum, unlike *cough* the current viewers''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Note that a bunchg oif this is more about "How to build a cliewnt" then the protovcol it speeks
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Anybody have a good name for the local state maintaining endpoint, other than "headless viewer" or "local user-agent"?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|grid connector?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yep. The endpoint of a VW client should really just be a local representation of agent state, and present an API to everything that might need to communicate with the agent or the world.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|or "grid agent"?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:44]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: grid agent, maybe. it's more than just a connector''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, I mostly disagree. F'rinstance, on the network side of the "headless viewer" is a protocol.... but on the user side is also a protocol of sorts, that we're calling an API...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine, you're describing libomv's GridClient :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha: Dzon made some interesting points on VWRAP that *do* impact on the protocol, such as the fact that more than one network endpoint is needed for the same agent session.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif: Yep, libomv provides a couple of the most vivid examples of points on the thin-to-thick proxy spectrum ....
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif: could you describe "GridClient" pls?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it's the main object of the libomv based clients
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|There are bits which do
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it maintains agent state, world state (object tracker, sim tracker, nearby user tracker)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Mostly making sure you can ask for less then the whole world
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif: ah, OK
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it doesn't do much anything in the way of presenting it, it provides APi for applications writers to represent that state to the user in the way they find most appropriate
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I love how libomv is an example (a hacky, SL packet stream compatible example) of some things that we want to deal with in VWRAP.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|kk. i've got to run (literally)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|going for my morning jog on the beach
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|cya Mead
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: seeya meadhbh''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|tc meadhbh
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|take care Mead
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|bye :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|havea good one folks.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and once more, sorry for blowing up at you latif
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Roland Riddler|Roland Riddler]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|byes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|your points are well taken
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|no worries ;)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Brrrrrr... SF beaches
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|didn't he move to alaska:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The pacific is impressivlely cold at the latitude of Santa Cruz
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i've got plenty of things going not to get upset at "what have *you* done" sort of comments :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:50]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry chuckles''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Not terribly construtive
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks so much, gang, for participating in my topic -- my thinking has made some progress today...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks for coming and sharing
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:50]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: np, it's been a particularly interesting one latha''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, which?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Mea's trantrum
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|heh
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|we know her well :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Indeed
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Just not constructive
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and i am frustrated by the pace of progress
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|We all are, I think
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And Linden's currently feeling somewhat feckless
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|what would be considered progress?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, is anyone besides Joshua involved with the vwrap from linden side?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zero?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|attm? Not clear. Zero is watching the mail stream, but I'm ont seeing much action.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Would be interesting if we could work on the design, and on coding. What I proposed in the last section of the agenda is how I believe VWRAP functionality should have been added to Snowglobe. I keep getting into the hint of an argument with Pixel about the way it was truly hacked (merged) into Snowglobe, instead of VWRAP functionality being decoupled.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think it's hard to make a standards process that leads rather than lags. Hopefully we can do more wiring-together of stuff, cheesy proxies, etc, and then clean it up later.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It hink you need both at once
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|You push on both piles and
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|there was some work from pixel (and other ibm'ers i think) on sg vwrap
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|over time the convrege
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|*they
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but nobody is doing it atm
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lindens got a token rep at vwrap
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif: yeah, but it was merged into SG, and is so complex that even Merov doesn't understand it.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|There's a reluctance to push on the Linden ecosystem without Linden playing
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hurli's doing it, but not too many other things going on...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...that are explicitly tying to vwrap
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|somehow I dont think it woudl be in LL's best interest to lose influence in VWRAP
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:55]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: but if LL don't provide input, why should they expect any influence?''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm planning on another pass on merhing post OGPX code into the openSIm module, as OpenSim settles down toward 0.7
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hurli is trying to do server side of things, but he's helpless since there is no client dev at all
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|alas, that fate keeps moving
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|*date
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, interesting, that'll be good, do you have any hacking help available?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Getting Hurli to talk about what he does seems to be virtually impossible, sad to say. I'm hoping that the Jarilo bridge to #vwrap might help there, as he's loathe to write any descriptions to VWRAP m/l at all, despite saying he would.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|problem with vwrap interop code is not sim-side. it's 1) lack of specs, 2) lack of client support
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:56]
| colspan="2"|''Wut: latif++ ''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Maybe we need a speaker-to-Hurli who can keep the communications more open.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Welll I plan on getting back into coding
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif: lack of specs because we're inventing it as we go. Remember that Zero's OGP was a 5% spec, tops.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, what client will you test it with? :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I can live with the current snowglobe/OGPX merge
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, would be nice to have one or two opensim hackers who are onboard with you to mess with the code. Sorry, that's not my area.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|at least for a while
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And I can draft pixel probably for some stugff as needed
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I get on fine with Hurli, we've had several hour-long discussions in PM. Maybe I can write the text that he doesn't like writing :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the OpenSim dev community is usually quite approachable and helpful in the IRC channels or mailing lists
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But, honestly, I'm going to start with a clean re-merge of the current oGPX stlyle code which should work with the version we had up end of last year
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, what might be a medium-term interop target for your new coding effort? Trying to see where your'e headed short term.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Up for discussion. I'm still negotiating inside my shop how we want to move in the absence of Linden motion
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think the OGP code is still in current OpenSim
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But at a minimum I want to make sure the basix OGP code surives across 0.7
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It will break at the 0.7 line at the moment
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Diva and I chatted a little about that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it's probably broken now
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The problem is 0.7 keeps receeding over the horizon
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha: OGP would be a regression compared to VWRAP
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I dont think anyone is maintaining it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Full of singletons
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It would be OGPX on the client side
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|probalbly al ittle less so on the sim side
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ok. time 4 me to go 2 andrew's oh
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|tc everybody
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|11am, off to OSgrid
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|cya Rex.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|bye :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Cyu Rex
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|cya peoples
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm gonna adjourn also, thanks!!!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|have fun:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|No good reason I can't make sure the OGPX code on OpenSim isn't a superset of what's in ther enow
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|sso, get out of the singletones
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|me too, another meeting to go to... but I'll be connected to groupies chat via my proxy ;)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|see you dahlia :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|bye all :)
|}

AW Groupies In-World Meeting Agenda

2010-05-04T15:44:28Z

Latha Serevi: /* Examples of proxy-based and other approaches */

Next AW Groupies meeting:

:: '''2010-May-4 0930 PDT'''

'''Please help fill in this agenda outline! Don't be shy.'''

Latha Serevi will host a discussion on the theme of "proxy-based interop".

== Interop use cases relevant to proxy-based interop ==

:# IRC and XMPP bridging
:# Enhanced world interactions
:## Double-click TP (Par)
:## Viewer ident (Par)
:# Viewer UI enhancements
:## separable windows (SNOW-375)
:# mix and match client features
:# Server-side rendering (??)
:# 3d scene adapters across incompatible VW's

== Examples of proxy-based and other approaches ==

:# Proxies based on SL packets and libomv
:## XMPP bridging Dahlia's proxy way
:## LordGregGreg's http://code.google.com/p/par/
:# hypothetical VWRAP proxies
:# Relay agents using multiple client-style connections
:## IRC and XMPP bridging Latif's way (Radegast agent with plugins)
:# Loosely coupled client UI components
:## SNOW-375 (Dzonatas), provides http interface to viewer/world state
:## wouldn't a SNOW-375 style REST API fit nicely into a (thick) proxy?

== Common Problems with Proxies ==

The GridProxy that is supplied with libOpenMetaverse is an excellent piece of technology, but long-term experience with it highlights that there are a few problems with the approach:

:# Users need a certain amount of networking awareness
:# Viewer has to be directed at proxy instead of at the target world
:# Proxy needs to be brought up manually before the viewer
:# There can be only one proxy at a time, which limits flexibility
:# Terminating the proxy kills or disables the viewer session

These problems severely hamper widespread deployment and adoption of proxies as a regular user facility for non-technical users. Technical users are inconvenienced by these issues as well.

== A Solution to the Problem with Proxies ==

There is a technical solution to the problems outlined above.

:# Replace the inline proxy process by a transparent proxy thread in the viewer
:# The viewer would connect to the desired target world in the normal manner
:# By default the proxy thread would be fully transparent and do nothing
:# Proxy programs/scripts can be loaded into or unloaded from the proxy thread
:# From a user perspective, the "problem with proxies" vanishes.

Possible implementation options:

:# Either load proxy code directly into the proxy thread (fast but not robust),
:# Or run a listener in the thread and attach proxy plugins to it via a socket:
:::* This places the proxy process "on the side" of the transparent inline thread which funnels the traffic into and back out of the socketed plugin process.
:::* Any number of such proxy processes could be attached and processed in parallel.
:::* A proxy process could be killed at any time (or could fail and die through software error), and the viewer would continue working normally --- the proxy thread would become transparent again as soon as the socket is disconnected.

[[Category: AW Groupies]]

AW Groupies In-World Meeting Agenda

2010-05-03T18:07:47Z

Latha Serevi:

AW Groupies In-World Meeting Agenda

2010-05-03T05:05:46Z

Latha Serevi:

AW Groupies In-World Meeting Agenda

2010-05-02T21:42:11Z

Latha Serevi:

AW Groupies In-World Meeting Agenda

2010-05-02T21:41:01Z

Latha Serevi:

AW Groupies In-World Meeting Agenda

2010-05-02T21:37:54Z

Latha Serevi:

AW Groupies In-World Meeting Agenda

2010-05-02T21:34:19Z

Latha Serevi:

Next AW Groupies meeting:

:: '''2010-May-4 0930 PDT'''

Latha Serevi will host a discussion on the theme of "proxy-based interop".

'''Please help fill in this agenda outline! Don't be shy.'''

'''1. Interop use cases relevant to proxy-based interop'''

:# IRC and XMPP bridging

:# Enhanced world interactions
:## Double-click TP (Par)
:## Viewer ident (Par)

:# Viewer UI enhancements
:## separable windows (SNOW-375)

:# Server-side rendering (?) (not a filter, but a

'''2. Examples of proxy-based and other approaches'''

:# Proxies based on SL packets and libomv
:## XMPP bridging Dahlia's proxy way
:## LordGregGreg's http://code.google.com/p/par/

:# hypothetical VWRAP proxies

:# Relay agents using multiple client-style connections
:## IRC bridging Latif's way (Radegast agent with plugins)

'''3. Tradeoffs with proxy-based interop versus the alternatives'''

[[Category: AW Groupies]]

AW Groupies

2010-04-20T21:04:17Z

Latha Serevi: /* Mailing Lists */

=Purpose=
Serious technical discussion about Linden Lab's [[Architecture Working Group|Architecture Working Group (AWG)]]. "AW Groupies" is an unofficial, Resident-operated group, though most (all?) members also participate in the AWG.

Invite only (apply in-world to [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]), but the criterion is simple. Show up and contribute to the AWG, at [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]'s office hours, or on the Wiki, or on SL-Dev or in the [irc://irc.freenode.net/#pyogp irc channel] for the [[Pyogp/Client_Lib|Python test client]].

=Activities=
The [[AW_Groupies#Architecture_Working_Group_meetings|main AWG meeting]] is held annually or semi-annually.
We now [[AW_Groupies#In-World_Meetings|meet up to 8 times a week in-world]], counting AW Groupies meeting, Zero's office hours, Which's office hours, Enus's office hours, Whump's office hours and the [[Pyogp#In_World_Meetings|pygop daily meetings]].

Our main focus these days is on the [[Open Grid Protocol]], the [[Open_Grid_Public_Beta]] and the [[Pyogp|pyogp Python test harness]] for protocol testing.

Also members are quite active on the wiki and in the SLDEV mailing list.

A public SVN repository is open to all AW Groupies members here:
* http://openmv.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/archwg/

Contact anyone with root on openmv.org for an account if you are in the AW Groupies group in-world.

==Architecture Working Group meetings==
* [[AWG_Meeting_1|AWG I annual meeting transcript, participants' responses, etc]]
* [[AWG_Meeting_2|AWG II annual meeting transcript, video, participants' responses, etc]]

==In-World Meetings==
===AW Groupies meeting===
Weekly meeting times are:
* '''Mondays''' -------

* '''Tuesdays''' ------ 9:30 AM SLT at [http://slurl.com/secondlife/ThorneBridgeTown/156/129/25 Zha's IBM Island at ThorneBridgeTown] (weekly AWG meeting)
* ------------------ FIRST TUESDAY of the month ONLY: 1 PM SLT at [http://slurl.com/secondlife/Grasmere/171/112/27 Zero Linden's office hours at Grasmere]
* ------------------ Noon SLT [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies#OpenSim__meeting| Open Sim Meeting]

* '''Wednesdays''' -- Suspended until further notice: 1:30 PM SLT @ [http://slurl.com/secondlife/ambleside/228/244/25/?title=Whump%20Linden%27s%20Office Whump Linden's Office Hours] (main meeting for public grid open beta)

* '''Thursdays''' ----- 11 AM SLT at [http://slurl.com/secondlife/Beaumont/149/44/24 Which Linden's office hours at Beaumont] (often AWG-related these days)
* '''Fridays''' --------- 1 PM SLT [http://slurl.com/secondlife/Longfellow/99/97/28 Enus Linden's Office Hours] (starring PyOGP and [[Pyogp#Pic_of_the_Moment|a cast of several bots]])
:
Meetings are scheduled via the "[http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com SL AW Groupies" google calendar]" (though the above schedule is generally more accurate).

* [http://www.google.com/calendar/feeds/pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic XML]
* [http://www.google.com/calendar/ical/pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics ICal]
* Calendar ID: pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4@group.calendar.google.com
* [http://www.google.com/calendar/render?cid=pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com Add to your Google Calendar]

====Meeting Agendas====

Each meeting should have an agenda --- which will be distributed via
* google calendar entry
* in-world notice to the SL "AW Groupies" group
* the [[AW Groupies In-World Meeting Agenda]] wiki page

===OpenSim meeting===
* Tuesdays/Saturdays noon SLT, at Wright Plaza sim in OSGrid. [http://osgrid.org/index.php?page=home&btn=1 Registration Page]

Set [[Client_parameters|client command line options]] to:
:-loginuri http://osgrid.org:8002
:-loginpage http://osgrid.org/loginscreen.php
:-helperuri http://osgrid.org/

===Chat Logs===

Chat logs of the in-world meetings are published and accessible via the links below:

====2007 meetings====
:* September: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/2007-09-28 | 28]]
:* October: [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-01 | 1]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-05 | 5]] [[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2007_Oct_09|9 --Zero's office]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-16| 16]]
:* November: [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-06 | 6]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-13 | 13]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-20| 20]]
====2008 meetings====
:* January: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-01-08|08]]
:*February: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-02-19|19]]
:*April: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-08|08]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-22|22]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-29|29]]
:*May: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-05-20|20]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-05-27|27]]
:*June: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-03|03]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-10|10]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-17|17]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-24|24]]
:*July: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-01|01]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-08| 08]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-15|15]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-22|22]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-29|29]]
:*August: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-05|05]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-12|12]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-19|19]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-26|26]]
:* September [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-09|9]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-16|16]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-23|23]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-30|30]]
:* October [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-07|7]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-14|14]] [[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_October_14|14 --Zero's O.H.]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-28|28]]
:* November [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-11-11|11]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-11-18|18]]
:* December [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-09|9]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-16|16]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-23|23]]
====2009 meetings====
:*January [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-06|6]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-13|13]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-20|20]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-27|27]]
:*February [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-03|3]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-10|10]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-17|17]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-24|24]]
:*March [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-03-03|3]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-03-10|10]]
:*April [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-07|7]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-14|14]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-28|28]]
:*June [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-06-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-06-16|16]]
:*July [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-07-21|21]]
:*September [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-09-15|15]]
:*October [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-10-20|20]]
====2010 meetings====
:*March [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-03-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-03-09|9]]
:*April [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/JoeLindenTPVBrownbag-2010-04-13|13joe]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-04-20|20joshua]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/JoeLindenTPVBrownbag-2010-04-20|20joe]]
*
* [[MMOX#Chat_logs|MMOX chat logs]] -- in-world transcripts with non-SL/Opensim participants
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Grid_Interoperability_Chat_Logs All Grid Interoperability chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:AW_Groupies_Transcripts All AW Groupies chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Pyogp_Transcripts All Pyogp chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Open_Grid_Public_Beta_Transcripts All Open Grid Public Beta Transcripts]
*
* [[User:Zero_Linden#Transcripts_of_previous_office_hours|Zero Linden's Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Which_Linden|Which Linden's Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Enus_Linden| Enus Linden Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Whump_Linden| Whump Linden Office Hour Transcripts]]
*
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=chat+log OpenSim chat logs]
* [[Mono/2008-04-04 | mono beta meeting discussion of het-grid]]

(if you post chat logs, you might want to use the [[User:Dr_Scofield/logtransform|sllog2wiki perl script]] to turn them into a more readable wiki table format ready to copy & paste into the chat log page)

Chat logs of AWGroupies meetings should be summarized on the wiki.

==Viewpoint Advocacy Groups==

[[Viewpoint Advocacy Groups]] - groups to focus on specific requirements.
=== AWG-specific VAGs===

* [[Core Grid Services, Protocols, and Structures VAG]]
* [[Event Scalability VAG]]
* [[Geometry and Physics VAG]]
* [[Live Performances VAG]]
* [[Quality Assurance VAG]]
* [[Scalability VAG]]
=== AWG-related VAGs===
* [[Map_API_VAG]]
* [[Multi-Process Client VAG -- draft]]

=Work-In-Progress=

Work-in-progress wiki pages are architecture pages that are (as the name implies ;-)) work in progress. Once the group has reached consensus that a particular topic is "good-to-go" we'll graduate that page to the [[Architecture Working Group|main AWG page]].

==General Concerns==
* [[Scoping]]
* [[Architecture Working Group Glossary|Glossary]]
* [[Use Cases]]
===Open Grid Protocol (OGP)===
====Linden Pages====

====User Pages====

==Communications==
* [[Initial CAPS seed]]
* [[AWG initial flows]]
* [[AWG flows login]]

* [[Mudata]]
* [[Streamlet]]
===Documenting current protocols===
* [[Pyogp|Python test harness for OGP]]
** [[User:Which_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_May_22| Which Linden office hours 22 May 2008]]
====AWG and citizen pages====
* [[Current_login_protocols]]
* [[Current_Sim_Capabilities]]
* [[Example_protocol_code]]
* [[Hegemons_Login_Analysis#Very_simple_C.23__server]]
* [[User:Gareth_Ellison/Supergrid|Litesim grid interop]]
* [[EventQueueGet_CAP| Event Queue Get CAP]]

====Linden Lab pages====
* [[Service_Disruptions|"Satellite's Eye" view of the Second Life architecture from a service disruption POV]]
* [[Message_System_and_Capabilities]]
* [[Viewer_Authentication]]
* [[Viewer_Architecture]]
* [[Protocol]]
* [[LLSD]]
* [[Certified_HTTP_Escrow]]
* [[ImprovedInstantMessage]]
* [[Client_parameters|client command line parameters and stuff]]

====libsecondlife reference pages====
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Login Login page]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Protocol_%28network%29 Protocol page]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Category:Packets packets index]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Movement Movement]

====opensim reference pages====
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Grid_Architecture_Diagram opensim grid architecture diagram]
* [http://opensimulator.org/images/3/3c/OGS1Login_Sequence.jpg login diagram (same general sequence as current LL login)]

=== Future Protocols===
* [[Second_Life_Login_API_Strawman]]
:deprecated in favor of:
* [[Open Grid Protocol]]
** [[SLGOGP_Teleport_Strawman]]
*[[Architecture_Working_Group#Design_Documents | Ongoing next generation protocols documentation effort by Linden Lab]]

=== Possible future directions ===
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenID| OpenID A decentralized single sign-on system]
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yadis| Yardis A digital identity protocol]

==Asset Security and Trust==
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Dale_Innis/Asset_handling_in_OGP Asset Handling in OGP]
* [[Protecting content in an open grid]]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Infinity_Linden/OGP_Trust_Model OGP Trust Model]

==Scaling Issues==
* [[Brainstorming#ANALYSIS:_Region_Subdivision_as_a_scaling_method| Region Subdivision]]
* [[Brainstorming#ANALYSIS:_Scalability_through_reverse_proxies:_the_paravirtual_grid| Reverse Proxies]]
* [[AWG Scalability through per-resident subdivision of the Grid| Resident Subdivision]]
===Group IM===
* [[Message_Queue_Evaluation_Notes| Which Linden's message queue evaluation notes]]

==Other==
* [[Use_Cases#Extended_Capability_Clients|Extended Capability Clients]]

=Thinking-in-Progress=

* Have a look and contribute to the [[Brainstorming|brainstorming]] page.

* It's early days on the [[Multi-Process Client VAG -- draft]], but we would highly appreciate input to help with design choices and direction.
==Misc User Pages==
* Have an AWG idea? Don't know where in the wiki it should be indexed? Make sure that folks can find it by adding it to the [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:AW_Groupies_User_Pages AW_Groupies_User_Pages] Add: <nowiki>'[[Category:AW Groupies User Pages]]'</nowiki> to the end of your user page.

=External Resources=

Stuff of interest to or in connection with the [[AW Groupies]] or the [[Architecture Working Group]]:

* [[Developer_communication_tools|Developer Communication Tools (Linden Lab)]]
* [[SLDev|SLDev Main Page]]
* [[Open_Grid_Public_Beta]]
* [[Pyogp]] {Linden Labs/ AWG Python-based protocols testing library)
*
* [http://openmv.org/ OpenMetaverse Home]
**[http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Main_Page libsecondlife (libsl) homepage]
**[http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page opensim homepage]
**[http://openviewer.org openviewer homepage]
**[http://code.google.com/p/openmetaverse/wiki/SimianGrid SimianGrid]
*[http://www.osgrid.org OSGrid: open/non-profit OpenSim based grid]
* [http://www.realxtend.org/ realxtend homepage]
*
* [http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/22428.wss IBM PR re: AWG]

Latha's quick list of interop relevant VW sites, 3/30/2010
* http://tools.ietf.org/wg/vwrap/
* http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page
* http://openwonderland.org/
* http://www.realxtend.org/
* http://code.google.com/p/openmetaverse/wiki/SimianGrid
* http://www.opencobalt.org/
* http://www.solipsis.org/
* http://www.web3d.org/

==Second Life Viewers==
Various viewers compatible with Second Life.

::*Note: the "Derived 3rd-party clients" page includes a few non GPL viewers plus some hybrids. I'll try to come up with a better way to index this stuff. [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]
::*Yeah, that redirect of "Alternate_viewers" to "Downloads" is nuts, and the "Downloads" page itself seems to have to have a variety of things bundled together --- it needs splitting. But don't split it by license, that's precisely what I sought to eliminate in this section's re-org. It makes no sense to classify clients by license, since GPL'd clients don't necessarily have anything to do with Linden's code, just like BSD clients don't necessarily have anything to do with libomv. It does make sense to keep a list of Linden-derived clients though, since they're all more alike than not alike, and share both code and license encumbrance. [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]] 01:28, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

===Viewers based on the Linden Lab GPL code (C++)===

*[http://secondlife.com/support/downloads.php Main Second Life viewer/client]
:The main (official) Second Life viewer, produced by Linden Lab with the help of patches submitted by the community, and available for Linux, Mac and Windows.

*[[Snowglobe|Snowglobe]]

:A new version of the Second Life client in a public repository where Linden Lab permits direct committing from select community members alongside daily Linden work. There is also a new build system to keep this version continuously building when new submissions are received, with new builds available to everyone. This version will become available as an alternative Linden download alongside the main SL client, once it is sufficiently stable.

*[[Alternate_viewers|Derived 3rd-party clients]] (''currently links to a mixed "Downloads" page, to be fixed'')
:A large list of clients (not necessarily 3D) developed in the free and open-source community using GPL code from the above two official viewers.

===Viewers based on the libomv/libsl code (C#)===

* [http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/idealistviewer/ Idealist]
:IdealistViewer is a new cross-platform viewer based on the Irrlicht engine, PrimMesher, and LibOpenmetaverse. It can either use the Second Life protocols as provided by LibOpenmetaverse or the MXP protocol. Since it uses the Irrlicht engine it can simultaneously display prim/sculptie content and objects and animated meshes/avatars from a wide variety of sources such as Collada, .OBJ, DirectX, and Blitz3D files. It is not derived from the LL GPL viewer and is made available under BSD style licensing. It is designed to work with OpenSimulator but may also work with Second Life. It is written in the C# language.

* [http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/lookingglass/ LookingGlass]
:LookingGlass viewer is a modular viewer with pluggable communication and rendering engines. Initial communication plugin uses LibOpenMetaverse and the initial rendering plugin uses PrimMesher and Ogre. It is written in C# and BSD licensed. Home site at http://lookingglassviewer.org/ .

===Viewers based on other libraries (python, C, etc)===

* [[Pyogp]]
: Pyogp is an open source project between Linden Lab and the Architecture Working Group (AWG) to support testing the (Open Grid Protocol (OGP). Written in Python, Pyogp will consist initially of a client library and test functionality to enable testing OGP-enabled virtual worlds such as Second Life and compatible OpenSim implementations. These components will expand as the effort matures. Pyogp is released under the Apache v2 license.

==Mailing Lists==
* [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo List of Linden Lab mailing lists]
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sldev SLDEV] Main mailing list for SL developers
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gridnauts gridnauts] Mailing list for participants in Open Grid Public Beta
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pyogp PyOGP] Mailing List for Python-based client library and test harness for the Open Grid Protocols
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Resources#Mailing_Lists libsecondlife]
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page opensim]
* [http://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/openviewer-dev openviewer]
* [http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/vwrap/current/maillist.html VWRAP]

==IRC==
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#opensl
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#opensl-jira (real time updates of entries to jira.secondlife.com)
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#opensl-svn (updates of the the public SVN)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#opensim * irc://irc.freenode.net/#opensim-dev
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#libomv * irc://irc.efnet.net/#libomv-dev
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#openviewer * irc://irc.freenode.net/#openviewer-dev
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#realxtend (Finnish language but can handle English if needed)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#pyogp (Python test harness/pyogp Second LIfe library irc)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#gridnauts (Open Grid Public Beta irc)

==Forums==
* [http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend| realXtend google forum]

==Capabilities==

* [http://www.cap-lore.com/CapTheory/index.html Capabilities theory and practice]
* [http://wiki.erights.org/wiki/Zooko%27s_triangle Zook's Triangle index] -- short list of interesting articles about naming and capabilties
* [http://www.cs.washington.edu/homes/levy/capabook/ Capability-based Systems by Henry Levy] --online copy of 1984 book on early implementations of capabilities systems
* [http://www.erights.org/ E language home] [https://www.cypherpunks.to/erights/ E language home mirror] [http://wiki.erights.org/ E wiki] --computer language dedicated to handling distributed trust issues
** [https://www.cypherpunks.to/erights/elib/capability/index.html Capability Computation]
** irc://irc.freenode.net/#erights
** [http://www.eros-os.org/mailman/listinfo/e-lang E language mailing list]
* [http://www.eros-os.org/mailman/listinfo/cap-talk mailing list for capability systems]
* [http://mscheffler.wordpress.com/2008/01/20/diploma/ blog and thesis on caps in virtual worlds Martin Scheffler]
* [http://homepage.mac.com/kpreid/elang/den.html Cap-based MUD by Kevin Reid] --written in E
* [http://www.fudco.com/chip/lessons.html discussion of ancient (Commodore 64!) video game that used capabilities]

==Misc==

* [http://blog.signpostmarv.name/2008/07/29/non-unique-region-names-within-the-confines-of-a-single-grid-yay-or-nay/ non-unique region names within the confines of a single grid, yay or nay ?]
* [http://blog.signpostmarv.name/2008/01/04/map-api-in-new-location/ discussion of new Map API and related issues]
* [http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source Open Source Portal] --index to all things Open Source for Linden Lab

=Members=

Founder [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]

[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]

[[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]

[[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]

[[User:Dr Scofield|Dr Scofield]]

[[User:Burhop Piccard|Burhop Piccard]]

[[User:Vicero Lambert|Vicero Lambert]]

[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]

[[User:Silicon Plunkett|Silicon Plunkett]]

[[User:Dale Innis|Dale Innis]]

[[Category:Architecture Working Group]]
[[Category:Grid_Interoperability]]
[[Category:AW Groupies]]
[[Category:MMOX]]

AW Groupies

2010-04-20T21:01:53Z

Latha Serevi: /* 2010 meetings */

=Purpose=
Serious technical discussion about Linden Lab's [[Architecture Working Group|Architecture Working Group (AWG)]]. "AW Groupies" is an unofficial, Resident-operated group, though most (all?) members also participate in the AWG.

Invite only (apply in-world to [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]), but the criterion is simple. Show up and contribute to the AWG, at [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]'s office hours, or on the Wiki, or on SL-Dev or in the [irc://irc.freenode.net/#pyogp irc channel] for the [[Pyogp/Client_Lib|Python test client]].

=Activities=
The [[AW_Groupies#Architecture_Working_Group_meetings|main AWG meeting]] is held annually or semi-annually.
We now [[AW_Groupies#In-World_Meetings|meet up to 8 times a week in-world]], counting AW Groupies meeting, Zero's office hours, Which's office hours, Enus's office hours, Whump's office hours and the [[Pyogp#In_World_Meetings|pygop daily meetings]].

Our main focus these days is on the [[Open Grid Protocol]], the [[Open_Grid_Public_Beta]] and the [[Pyogp|pyogp Python test harness]] for protocol testing.

Also members are quite active on the wiki and in the SLDEV mailing list.

A public SVN repository is open to all AW Groupies members here:
* http://openmv.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/archwg/

Contact anyone with root on openmv.org for an account if you are in the AW Groupies group in-world.

==Architecture Working Group meetings==
* [[AWG_Meeting_1|AWG I annual meeting transcript, participants' responses, etc]]
* [[AWG_Meeting_2|AWG II annual meeting transcript, video, participants' responses, etc]]

==In-World Meetings==
===AW Groupies meeting===
Weekly meeting times are:
* '''Mondays''' -------

* '''Tuesdays''' ------ 9:30 AM SLT at [http://slurl.com/secondlife/ThorneBridgeTown/156/129/25 Zha's IBM Island at ThorneBridgeTown] (weekly AWG meeting)
* ------------------ FIRST TUESDAY of the month ONLY: 1 PM SLT at [http://slurl.com/secondlife/Grasmere/171/112/27 Zero Linden's office hours at Grasmere]
* ------------------ Noon SLT [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies#OpenSim__meeting| Open Sim Meeting]

* '''Wednesdays''' -- Suspended until further notice: 1:30 PM SLT @ [http://slurl.com/secondlife/ambleside/228/244/25/?title=Whump%20Linden%27s%20Office Whump Linden's Office Hours] (main meeting for public grid open beta)

* '''Thursdays''' ----- 11 AM SLT at [http://slurl.com/secondlife/Beaumont/149/44/24 Which Linden's office hours at Beaumont] (often AWG-related these days)
* '''Fridays''' --------- 1 PM SLT [http://slurl.com/secondlife/Longfellow/99/97/28 Enus Linden's Office Hours] (starring PyOGP and [[Pyogp#Pic_of_the_Moment|a cast of several bots]])
:
Meetings are scheduled via the "[http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com SL AW Groupies" google calendar]" (though the above schedule is generally more accurate).

* [http://www.google.com/calendar/feeds/pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic XML]
* [http://www.google.com/calendar/ical/pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics ICal]
* Calendar ID: pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4@group.calendar.google.com
* [http://www.google.com/calendar/render?cid=pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com Add to your Google Calendar]

====Meeting Agendas====

Each meeting should have an agenda --- which will be distributed via
* google calendar entry
* in-world notice to the SL "AW Groupies" group
* the [[AW Groupies In-World Meeting Agenda]] wiki page

===OpenSim meeting===
* Tuesdays/Saturdays noon SLT, at Wright Plaza sim in OSGrid. [http://osgrid.org/index.php?page=home&btn=1 Registration Page]

Set [[Client_parameters|client command line options]] to:
:-loginuri http://osgrid.org:8002
:-loginpage http://osgrid.org/loginscreen.php
:-helperuri http://osgrid.org/

===Chat Logs===

Chat logs of the in-world meetings are published and accessible via the links below:

====2007 meetings====
:* September: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/2007-09-28 | 28]]
:* October: [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-01 | 1]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-05 | 5]] [[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2007_Oct_09|9 --Zero's office]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-16| 16]]
:* November: [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-06 | 6]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-13 | 13]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-20| 20]]
====2008 meetings====
:* January: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-01-08|08]]
:*February: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-02-19|19]]
:*April: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-08|08]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-22|22]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-29|29]]
:*May: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-05-20|20]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-05-27|27]]
:*June: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-03|03]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-10|10]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-17|17]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-24|24]]
:*July: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-01|01]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-08| 08]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-15|15]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-22|22]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-29|29]]
:*August: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-05|05]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-12|12]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-19|19]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-26|26]]
:* September [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-09|9]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-16|16]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-23|23]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-30|30]]
:* October [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-07|7]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-14|14]] [[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_October_14|14 --Zero's O.H.]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-28|28]]
:* November [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-11-11|11]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-11-18|18]]
:* December [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-09|9]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-16|16]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-23|23]]
====2009 meetings====
:*January [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-06|6]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-13|13]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-20|20]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-27|27]]
:*February [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-03|3]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-10|10]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-17|17]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-24|24]]
:*March [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-03-03|3]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-03-10|10]]
:*April [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-07|7]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-14|14]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-28|28]]
:*June [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-06-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-06-16|16]]
:*July [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-07-21|21]]
:*September [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-09-15|15]]
:*October [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-10-20|20]]
====2010 meetings====
:*March [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-03-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-03-09|9]]
:*April [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/JoeLindenTPVBrownbag-2010-04-13|13joe]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-04-20|20joshua]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/JoeLindenTPVBrownbag-2010-04-20|20joe]]
*
* [[MMOX#Chat_logs|MMOX chat logs]] -- in-world transcripts with non-SL/Opensim participants
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Grid_Interoperability_Chat_Logs All Grid Interoperability chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:AW_Groupies_Transcripts All AW Groupies chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Pyogp_Transcripts All Pyogp chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Open_Grid_Public_Beta_Transcripts All Open Grid Public Beta Transcripts]
*
* [[User:Zero_Linden#Transcripts_of_previous_office_hours|Zero Linden's Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Which_Linden|Which Linden's Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Enus_Linden| Enus Linden Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Whump_Linden| Whump Linden Office Hour Transcripts]]
*
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=chat+log OpenSim chat logs]
* [[Mono/2008-04-04 | mono beta meeting discussion of het-grid]]

(if you post chat logs, you might want to use the [[User:Dr_Scofield/logtransform|sllog2wiki perl script]] to turn them into a more readable wiki table format ready to copy & paste into the chat log page)

Chat logs of AWGroupies meetings should be summarized on the wiki.

==Viewpoint Advocacy Groups==

[[Viewpoint Advocacy Groups]] - groups to focus on specific requirements.
=== AWG-specific VAGs===

* [[Core Grid Services, Protocols, and Structures VAG]]
* [[Event Scalability VAG]]
* [[Geometry and Physics VAG]]
* [[Live Performances VAG]]
* [[Quality Assurance VAG]]
* [[Scalability VAG]]
=== AWG-related VAGs===
* [[Map_API_VAG]]
* [[Multi-Process Client VAG -- draft]]

=Work-In-Progress=

Work-in-progress wiki pages are architecture pages that are (as the name implies ;-)) work in progress. Once the group has reached consensus that a particular topic is "good-to-go" we'll graduate that page to the [[Architecture Working Group|main AWG page]].

==General Concerns==
* [[Scoping]]
* [[Architecture Working Group Glossary|Glossary]]
* [[Use Cases]]
===Open Grid Protocol (OGP)===
====Linden Pages====

====User Pages====

==Communications==
* [[Initial CAPS seed]]
* [[AWG initial flows]]
* [[AWG flows login]]

* [[Mudata]]
* [[Streamlet]]
===Documenting current protocols===
* [[Pyogp|Python test harness for OGP]]
** [[User:Which_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_May_22| Which Linden office hours 22 May 2008]]
====AWG and citizen pages====
* [[Current_login_protocols]]
* [[Current_Sim_Capabilities]]
* [[Example_protocol_code]]
* [[Hegemons_Login_Analysis#Very_simple_C.23__server]]
* [[User:Gareth_Ellison/Supergrid|Litesim grid interop]]
* [[EventQueueGet_CAP| Event Queue Get CAP]]

====Linden Lab pages====
* [[Service_Disruptions|"Satellite's Eye" view of the Second Life architecture from a service disruption POV]]
* [[Message_System_and_Capabilities]]
* [[Viewer_Authentication]]
* [[Viewer_Architecture]]
* [[Protocol]]
* [[LLSD]]
* [[Certified_HTTP_Escrow]]
* [[ImprovedInstantMessage]]
* [[Client_parameters|client command line parameters and stuff]]

====libsecondlife reference pages====
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Login Login page]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Protocol_%28network%29 Protocol page]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Category:Packets packets index]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Movement Movement]

====opensim reference pages====
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Grid_Architecture_Diagram opensim grid architecture diagram]
* [http://opensimulator.org/images/3/3c/OGS1Login_Sequence.jpg login diagram (same general sequence as current LL login)]

=== Future Protocols===
* [[Second_Life_Login_API_Strawman]]
:deprecated in favor of:
* [[Open Grid Protocol]]
** [[SLGOGP_Teleport_Strawman]]
*[[Architecture_Working_Group#Design_Documents | Ongoing next generation protocols documentation effort by Linden Lab]]

=== Possible future directions ===
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenID| OpenID A decentralized single sign-on system]
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yadis| Yardis A digital identity protocol]

==Asset Security and Trust==
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Dale_Innis/Asset_handling_in_OGP Asset Handling in OGP]
* [[Protecting content in an open grid]]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Infinity_Linden/OGP_Trust_Model OGP Trust Model]

==Scaling Issues==
* [[Brainstorming#ANALYSIS:_Region_Subdivision_as_a_scaling_method| Region Subdivision]]
* [[Brainstorming#ANALYSIS:_Scalability_through_reverse_proxies:_the_paravirtual_grid| Reverse Proxies]]
* [[AWG Scalability through per-resident subdivision of the Grid| Resident Subdivision]]
===Group IM===
* [[Message_Queue_Evaluation_Notes| Which Linden's message queue evaluation notes]]

==Other==
* [[Use_Cases#Extended_Capability_Clients|Extended Capability Clients]]

=Thinking-in-Progress=

* Have a look and contribute to the [[Brainstorming|brainstorming]] page.

* It's early days on the [[Multi-Process Client VAG -- draft]], but we would highly appreciate input to help with design choices and direction.
==Misc User Pages==
* Have an AWG idea? Don't know where in the wiki it should be indexed? Make sure that folks can find it by adding it to the [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:AW_Groupies_User_Pages AW_Groupies_User_Pages] Add: <nowiki>'[[Category:AW Groupies User Pages]]'</nowiki> to the end of your user page.

=External Resources=

Stuff of interest to or in connection with the [[AW Groupies]] or the [[Architecture Working Group]]:

* [[Developer_communication_tools|Developer Communication Tools (Linden Lab)]]
* [[SLDev|SLDev Main Page]]
* [[Open_Grid_Public_Beta]]
* [[Pyogp]] {Linden Labs/ AWG Python-based protocols testing library)
*
* [http://openmv.org/ OpenMetaverse Home]
**[http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Main_Page libsecondlife (libsl) homepage]
**[http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page opensim homepage]
**[http://openviewer.org openviewer homepage]
**[http://code.google.com/p/openmetaverse/wiki/SimianGrid SimianGrid]
*[http://www.osgrid.org OSGrid: open/non-profit OpenSim based grid]
* [http://www.realxtend.org/ realxtend homepage]
*
* [http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/22428.wss IBM PR re: AWG]

Latha's quick list of interop relevant VW sites, 3/30/2010
* http://tools.ietf.org/wg/vwrap/
* http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page
* http://openwonderland.org/
* http://www.realxtend.org/
* http://code.google.com/p/openmetaverse/wiki/SimianGrid
* http://www.opencobalt.org/
* http://www.solipsis.org/
* http://www.web3d.org/

==Second Life Viewers==
Various viewers compatible with Second Life.

::*Note: the "Derived 3rd-party clients" page includes a few non GPL viewers plus some hybrids. I'll try to come up with a better way to index this stuff. [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]
::*Yeah, that redirect of "Alternate_viewers" to "Downloads" is nuts, and the "Downloads" page itself seems to have to have a variety of things bundled together --- it needs splitting. But don't split it by license, that's precisely what I sought to eliminate in this section's re-org. It makes no sense to classify clients by license, since GPL'd clients don't necessarily have anything to do with Linden's code, just like BSD clients don't necessarily have anything to do with libomv. It does make sense to keep a list of Linden-derived clients though, since they're all more alike than not alike, and share both code and license encumbrance. [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]] 01:28, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

===Viewers based on the Linden Lab GPL code (C++)===

*[http://secondlife.com/support/downloads.php Main Second Life viewer/client]
:The main (official) Second Life viewer, produced by Linden Lab with the help of patches submitted by the community, and available for Linux, Mac and Windows.

*[[Snowglobe|Snowglobe]]

:A new version of the Second Life client in a public repository where Linden Lab permits direct committing from select community members alongside daily Linden work. There is also a new build system to keep this version continuously building when new submissions are received, with new builds available to everyone. This version will become available as an alternative Linden download alongside the main SL client, once it is sufficiently stable.

*[[Alternate_viewers|Derived 3rd-party clients]] (''currently links to a mixed "Downloads" page, to be fixed'')
:A large list of clients (not necessarily 3D) developed in the free and open-source community using GPL code from the above two official viewers.

===Viewers based on the libomv/libsl code (C#)===

* [http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/idealistviewer/ Idealist]
:IdealistViewer is a new cross-platform viewer based on the Irrlicht engine, PrimMesher, and LibOpenmetaverse. It can either use the Second Life protocols as provided by LibOpenmetaverse or the MXP protocol. Since it uses the Irrlicht engine it can simultaneously display prim/sculptie content and objects and animated meshes/avatars from a wide variety of sources such as Collada, .OBJ, DirectX, and Blitz3D files. It is not derived from the LL GPL viewer and is made available under BSD style licensing. It is designed to work with OpenSimulator but may also work with Second Life. It is written in the C# language.

* [http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/lookingglass/ LookingGlass]
:LookingGlass viewer is a modular viewer with pluggable communication and rendering engines. Initial communication plugin uses LibOpenMetaverse and the initial rendering plugin uses PrimMesher and Ogre. It is written in C# and BSD licensed. Home site at http://lookingglassviewer.org/ .

===Viewers based on other libraries (python, C, etc)===

* [[Pyogp]]
: Pyogp is an open source project between Linden Lab and the Architecture Working Group (AWG) to support testing the (Open Grid Protocol (OGP). Written in Python, Pyogp will consist initially of a client library and test functionality to enable testing OGP-enabled virtual worlds such as Second Life and compatible OpenSim implementations. These components will expand as the effort matures. Pyogp is released under the Apache v2 license.

==Mailing Lists==
* [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo List of Linden Lab mailing lists]
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sldev SLDEV] Main mailing list for SL developers
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gridnauts gridnauts] Mailing list for participants in Open Grid Public Beta
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pyogp PyOGP] Mailing List for Python-based client library and test harness for the Open Grid Protocols
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Resources#Mailing_Lists libsecondlife]
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page opensim]
* [http://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/openviewer-dev openviewer]

==IRC==
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#opensl
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#opensl-jira (real time updates of entries to jira.secondlife.com)
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#opensl-svn (updates of the the public SVN)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#opensim * irc://irc.freenode.net/#opensim-dev
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#libomv * irc://irc.efnet.net/#libomv-dev
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#openviewer * irc://irc.freenode.net/#openviewer-dev
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#realxtend (Finnish language but can handle English if needed)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#pyogp (Python test harness/pyogp Second LIfe library irc)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#gridnauts (Open Grid Public Beta irc)

==Forums==
* [http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend| realXtend google forum]

==Capabilities==

* [http://www.cap-lore.com/CapTheory/index.html Capabilities theory and practice]
* [http://wiki.erights.org/wiki/Zooko%27s_triangle Zook's Triangle index] -- short list of interesting articles about naming and capabilties
* [http://www.cs.washington.edu/homes/levy/capabook/ Capability-based Systems by Henry Levy] --online copy of 1984 book on early implementations of capabilities systems
* [http://www.erights.org/ E language home] [https://www.cypherpunks.to/erights/ E language home mirror] [http://wiki.erights.org/ E wiki] --computer language dedicated to handling distributed trust issues
** [https://www.cypherpunks.to/erights/elib/capability/index.html Capability Computation]
** irc://irc.freenode.net/#erights
** [http://www.eros-os.org/mailman/listinfo/e-lang E language mailing list]
* [http://www.eros-os.org/mailman/listinfo/cap-talk mailing list for capability systems]
* [http://mscheffler.wordpress.com/2008/01/20/diploma/ blog and thesis on caps in virtual worlds Martin Scheffler]
* [http://homepage.mac.com/kpreid/elang/den.html Cap-based MUD by Kevin Reid] --written in E
* [http://www.fudco.com/chip/lessons.html discussion of ancient (Commodore 64!) video game that used capabilities]

==Misc==

* [http://blog.signpostmarv.name/2008/07/29/non-unique-region-names-within-the-confines-of-a-single-grid-yay-or-nay/ non-unique region names within the confines of a single grid, yay or nay ?]
* [http://blog.signpostmarv.name/2008/01/04/map-api-in-new-location/ discussion of new Map API and related issues]
* [http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source Open Source Portal] --index to all things Open Source for Linden Lab

=Members=

Founder [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]

[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]

[[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]

[[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]

[[User:Dr Scofield|Dr Scofield]]

[[User:Burhop Piccard|Burhop Piccard]]

[[User:Vicero Lambert|Vicero Lambert]]

[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]

[[User:Silicon Plunkett|Silicon Plunkett]]

[[User:Dale Innis|Dale Innis]]

[[Category:Architecture Working Group]]
[[Category:Grid_Interoperability]]
[[Category:AW Groupies]]
[[Category:MMOX]]

AW Groupies/Chat Logs/JoeLindenTPVBrownbag-2010-04-20

2010-04-20T20:48:01Z

Latha Serevi:

{|
Text and voice chat transcript from the Joe Linden TPV policy brown-bag meeting #2, 4-20-2010 noon PDT.
Lines beginning with the string [Transcript] were transcribed (often
paraphrased) from SL Voice by volunteer transcriptionist Latha Serevi.

|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: Okay, let's get started
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:JenzZa Misfit|JenzZa Misfit]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Robin Cornelius|Robin Cornelius]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|relay is go!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aklo Modan|Aklo Modan]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i can't hear anything
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: Thanks for coming back...it's a followup, may not need the whole hour...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|wait until v2 shared media gives u malware:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hi zarutian
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ok hear it - but destorted again
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: Fokls seem to have found the changes that were made already....
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zarutian Morpork|Zarutian Morpork]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Aklo: try to get to Linden Estate Services 4 it works good here
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe, I gather you were unsuccessful.Joe: the new TPV is still utterly GPL non-compliant.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aklo Modan|Aklo Modan]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|is there a call-in number?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Johan Neddings|Johan Neddings]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Robin, got the link for oSG ?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joe Linden|Joe Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|http://secondlife.com/corporate/tpv.php
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The diff is here: http://pastebin.com/Yd1j1EdE
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zarutian Morpork|Zarutian Morpork]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Aklo: no phone bridge today I gather
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: the new TPV is still utterly GPL non-compliant.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: what we did here, based on your feedback and other discussions....
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: ...was make three changes to the policy.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|morgaine, the tpv has nothing to do with what is allowed with the source aND WHAT ISNT
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: I think those changes are all reflected in the diff that Twchwolf dropped in...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|TPV 1c *specifically* violates GPLv2 because it states "If you are a Developer who distributes Third-Party Viewers to others .... you must disclose ... <stuff>". The GPLv2 FAQ gives a *specific* example of a mandatory required disclosure that is GPL non-compliant, and it's virtually identical to the one in the TPV.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: I'll simply mention that the two most significant changes were in secion 7,
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|\o/
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine: <ronoverdrive> 2nd thing is I got a reply from the FSF regarding the TPVP
??? <ronoverdrive> according to Brett Smith from the FSF the TPVP does -NOT- conflict with the GPL
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ron Ghostaltar|Ron Ghostaltar]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine: I got in contact with the FSF, the TPVP is compliant
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: 7a, 1st section, dropped the statement "if you're a developer, then you take responsibility...."
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: Since it caused pbs, for people, we ;simply removed.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: And farther down, omitted "devleop and distribute".
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Now instead of forcing libity on devoloper for user actions. Its now just devoloper OR user accecpts risks and devoloper can use stander disclaimer for distrubation.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Thickbrick Sleaford|Thickbrick Sleaford]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgain: yes but... the TPV is not a license for the software, but for the service.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: And a final change, 8f makes clear that we don't intend to modify the GPL license terms.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Oh, "develop and distribute" was removed? I must be looking at an old one
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(I have 80% destortion on the voice)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yep, it's gone now Morgaine
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: in the spirit of being explicit -- I had made this statement repeatedly, but wanted to put it in there.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|In 7a if that's where you mean
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zarutian Morpork|Zarutian Morpork]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine: refresh it?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:robertltux McCallen|robertltux McCallen]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morg the changes were done like today
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The GPL is a proven legil liecience., the tpv hasn't.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Robin Cornelius|Robin Cornelius]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Sorry Aleric, i;ve got nothing now myself
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: these chgs reflect the 2nd round of changes...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: I'd like to see if those changes meet the primary concerns...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm pretty happy with the changes.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: ...consensus concerns. I've heard some other indivicdual concerns also, ...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|me too, as far as section 7 goes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|nod yes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: particilarly want to aaddress things that are causing people to leave before the 30th.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Boroondas Gupte|Boroondas Gupte]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If it's pending you can cancel the cancelation.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Still some concerns with 1c?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: Other questions or concerns?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Conflicting with GPL?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:robertltux McCallen|robertltux McCallen]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|if the FSF thinks its kosher and and conflict with the GPL means that the GPL overrides then fine with me
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe, section 1c is going to be a focus today, I think.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dale Glass|Dale Glass]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|excuse me, is there a call-in number?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe, changes to section 7 made the policy much better, thank you
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I still see the same 1c, "further restrictions" on "developers who distribute TPVs to others". That's specifically against GPLv2 clause 6. very very specifically, there is even a GPLv2 FAQ explaining it.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] [somebody] liability was a concern....
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Jacek Antonelli|Jacek Antonelli]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yes, the new revision of the policy is much better
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: Ron Ghostaltar: got a reply from FSF, I'll foward.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(yes please)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Who is speaking?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Who is "me"?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Avatar Ron Ghostaltar
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Chaley May|Chaley May]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zarutian Morpork|Zarutian Morpork]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Ron Ghostaltar said that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Merov Linden|Merov Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Ron Ghostaltar
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Who was speaking?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: Ron Ghostaltar: basically says TPVP is GPL compliant, since it applies to TOS/connecting.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Boroondas Gupte|Boroondas Gupte]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|8c, too?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: any other points of concern before we focus on 1c?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:11]
| colspan="2"|''LordGregGreg Back has one''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: specific question: is the GPL also valid for developers who write for SL?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|1c and 8c both seem nominally to raise questions
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: my intention is not to find more tweaks to the document, but to collect the concerns you've got already. (??)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|You acknowledge and agree that we may require you to stop using or distributing a Third-Party Viewer for accessing Second Life if we determine that there is a violation. from 8c
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: re GPL-compliance: That is not entirely clear to me: Is it so that where the TPV policy says "the developer must ..." that if the developer does NOT do that then LL can delete their account, but can NOT persue legal against in RL against that developer?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: my cocern is to make sure your concerns have been heard, and where possible, reflected in the doc.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: specific question: is the GPL also valid for developers who write for SL?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: particvularly, if the Imprudence team might reconsider leaving SL support.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Grace McDunnough|Grace McDunnough]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Is anyone from Imprudence here?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Dunno
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: also Radegast, etc, would like to check in.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(in case Joe doesn't read chat, can someone please repeat my question in voice? :()
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: I am reading chat...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: didn't bring an entourage today, so jump in on voice if you want to...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ron Ghostaltar|Ron Ghostaltar]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Grace: I am here and contribute to Imprudence
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Robin Cornelius|Robin Cornelius]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Aleric hows that stream now?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] LGG Back: I was told that (grid proxy??) stuff can't be registered as a TPV?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: QUESTION (that would make me happy about GPL compliance): Is the GPL also valid for developers who write for SL?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: we do consider a proxy as a connection; we assume we won't be approving a bunch of plugins where the proxy itself is not being self-certified...(???)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zarutian Morpork|Zarutian Morpork]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine: such as prim scripts in LSL2
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zarutian Morpork|Zarutian Morpork]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|From 9c "Third-Party Viewers include software for viewing Second Life, any chat clients, utilities, bots, and proxies as well as applications that may not be listed in our Viewer Directory."
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: sec 9 includes proxies....would like to see them built, compliant in their ;usage with the TPV policy...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I dont' think its possible to make such a proxy
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|libomv gridproxy iherently allows you to bypass permissions systems and whatnot
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] LGG Back: was told not allowed to submit proxies. Joe Linden: none of the grid proxy tools have been submitted, AFAIK, just modules or plugins.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: QUESTION (to finish on GPL compliance): Is the GPL also valid for developers who write for SL?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:LordGregGreg Back|LordGregGreg Back]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|right, i had to make some changes :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|great
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: to Morgaine's q, what?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Boroondas Gupte|Boroondas Gupte]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Who develop viewers specifically for the SL grid.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zarutian Morpork|Zarutian Morpork]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Such as LSL scripts or Sim server code or?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I;lkl try, go to a different questiion while I type
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:16]
| colspan="2"|''Zarutian Morpork addresses the last w''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'll repeat question too, cause it seems you missed it :p
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine, are you doing a segue into the 1c discussion?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:17]
| colspan="2"|''Zarutian Morpork to Morgaine''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: of course none of this TPV stuff applies to in-world content at all. Different discussion.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|7c says "By "Third-Party Viewer," we mean any third-party software client on any device that logs into our servers that support Second Life. Third-Party Viewers include software for viewing Second Life, any chat clients, utilities, bots, and proxies as well as applications that may not be listed in our Viewer Directory."
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: the definition of TPV talks about anything that acutally logs in to our service. Software that doesn't connect is not addressed at all by this doc.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Johan Neddings|Johan Neddings]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So, a viewer that only connects to OpenSim for instance is free of the TPV ?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dz Questi|Dz Questi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it still seems unreasonable to take a stand that use of a TPV that just automates what a LSL script can do ( IE copy all the attributes of an object)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dz Questi|Dz Questi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|is a bannable offense
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zarutian Morpork|Zarutian Morpork]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine: are you perhaps asking about infrastructure code such as the sim server code or?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|COMMENT: Joe, a gridproxy inherently can't block violation of the TPV policy. People can modify them as they wish (e.g. grabbing whatever assets they want from the wire).
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|QUESTION: The TPVP being compliant to the GPL, does that means that where the TPVP says "the developer must..." that if he does NOT do that, then you will not take legal action (in RL) against the developer, but merely terminate the services for that developer (as user)?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe, to respond to your question from before, no I don't see any further issues that would prevent Radegast from being developed and registered in the directory
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: Johan, that's exactly right, there's zero impact on any viewer connecting to Opensim
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Johan Neddings|Johan Neddings]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Ok :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|a program that doesn't log in, but talks to scripts in sl is considered a TPV
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: Latif, that's great news, fantastic
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so just the existence of an openended gridproxy lib shouldn't be seen as a violation, right?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i'll be submitting my viewer to the directory pretty soon too
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: that's correct, an open-end grid proxy is not a violation...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: some uses are benign, some less so; we don't preclude their use
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(Morgaine must be writing a treatise) ;)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|uh oh
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ilana Debevec|Ilana Debevec]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|working on one Joe, it's a long one
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:robertltux McCallen|robertltux McCallen]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|a ripping proxy would be right out of course
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zarutian Morpork|Zarutian Morpork]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Rex: you mean like via remote events?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: (rephrasing): when you release code under a GPLv2 license, is that GPLv2 license available to all developers and distributors of your code and derived code, or is your GPLv2 license *NOT* a license available to developers/distributors of viewers specifically for SL? (If your license applies to SL TPV devs too, then any term of the TPV that is non-compliant would be overridden by the GPL term.)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Boroondas Gupte|Boroondas Gupte]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|what if it does?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i mean using the mini-lsl server
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Techwolf: you can't take away our right to distrubte under the GPL. Joe: if no connecting occurs to SL, then right.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|You didn't answer mine, I think... I'll try a third time:
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|QUESTION: The TPVP being compliant to the GPL, does that means that where the TPVP says "the developer must..." that if he does NOT do that, then you will not take legal action (in RL) against the developer, but merely terminate the services for that developer (as user)?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: the point of 8c is to indicate that if a TPV is noncompliant, then your permission to access SL with that viewer terminates, regardless of whether technical measures are used...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: ... and distribution for use in SL must be stopped. these are connection conditions.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ilana Debevec|Ilana Debevec]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe, speaking as a 'customer' not a 'devloper', but as a 'content creator'.. I think that some more thought MUST be put into the 'export rules'... never mind that things my partner and I make can't be exported by either of us with this new policy, never mind that things I build with any of my alts can't be exported by my. But as a content creator, I've bought several 'full perm' items for our builds.. with the explicit license to export to other grids.. now I can't. I DO understand the need for a control on this, but a blanket 'ex-post facto' restriction is.. well... rather brutal... I would realy, really, really suggest that that be held back until you can add a 'export flag' to the object/prim properties... the creator says the object can or cannot be exported
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ok, thanks!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(having 1 minute voice lag )
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: you don't state it is a condition of CONNECTION. You state it is a condition on DISTRIBUTION.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:LordGregGreg Back|LordGregGreg Back]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|check texture creators via sanning inventory
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dale Glass|Dale Glass]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|QUESTION: Joe, I would like to know, can the prohibitions on exporting content be ignored with permission from the copyright holder? Eg, it's CC-SA licensed, it's my own content but on another account, the copyright holder expressly gives me permission to do it? And, as a creator, what can I do to authorize an user to export my content that would ensure LL doesn't accidentally ban them?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So then, in the case that a viewer violates TPV, you are no longer allowed to distribute it FOR THE PURPOSE of connecting to SL,. You m ight still be able to distribute and say this is violation but here's the code?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Eddy: how can we make a "save your appearance" feature that is TPVP compliant?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I have the same problem as Ilana, just to throw in my ++ with that. :<
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Eddy: permissions checks...?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: the primary viewer does that as well, so no checks must be done to _cache_.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|there is case law on transient assets
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Eddy: what about saving to XML for export? that's what I meant.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Llana ++ from me too
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Eddy, that hasn't worked in quite a while :P pretty bit rotten
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: if it's equivalent of an export, then you need to do those per45missions checks.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the SLT viewer has a "appearance to xml" feature as well
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Lance: if the saved data includes textures, needs perm checks, but what about just saving a mapping? No checks, rihgt?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|As a content creator I should be able to give permission for my full permissions creations to be exported to other grids.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Boroondas Gupte|Boroondas Gupte]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|+Fleep
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Educators create many objects they FULLY INTEND to be exportable.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dale Glass|Dale Glass]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|+Fleep
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zarutian Morpork|Zarutian Morpork]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Fractured ModularSystems: yes?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: I think you're right, we don't want to restrict performance enhancements... export with intention of importing elsewhere or even from a 2nd SL account, needs to do perm checks.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|flee. i believe u should be able to give and take those perms
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|fleep*
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Frac (inaudible)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Rex > but they are forbidding that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fractured ModularSystems|Fractured ModularSystems]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|:<
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|They are forbidding the export of anyuthing that you are not the creator of
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Unless I'm reading that incorrectly?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:robertltux McCallen|robertltux McCallen]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|personally until the backend stuff is fixed i could host a site of exports by owners for CC tpye use
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: (SHORTER REPHRASE): when you grant your GPL license to developres, do you grant that license to ALL developers and distributors or only to GPL devs who do NOT write for SL?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|See section 2b
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha's issue queue: (1) how can people save builds created by two partner avatars under the TPV policy? (2) fixing section 1c.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thank you Joe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: it's still my position that the NO WARRANTY clauses are not in conflict with the plicy as written.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Jacek Antonelli|Jacek Antonelli]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|CONCERN: I'm not sure if this is a "wider concern", but I'd like to ask about 2B (the creator check on export) -- I would prefer it were phrased in terms of copyright, not a technical detail (creator name in the system).
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|latha: THAT.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zarutian Morpork|Zarutian Morpork]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine: ya mean if SL is dual lincensing?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe has just stated that GPL applies to *ALL* developers, even if for SL. Therefore TPV clauses that conflict with GPL are null and void.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: read-back of q, export rules, multiple avatars do a build...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: it's iimportant to us to create these sorts of limits around the broader export of content, including full perms...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|of course we have the right to export everything we create. ll can't give us that right
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|we already have it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|What? So all future use of SL for content creators who wish to create exportable content is governed by people who are no logner here??
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: ...the IP associated with full perms items restricts us from assuming intent of old full perms items...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That's nuts.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ilana Debevec|Ilana Debevec]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|no Joe, no, my partner and I build together... so prims are from BOTH of us... and read again... I have purchased full perm items with SPECIFIC PERMISSION TO EXPORT... you have made those purchased worthless...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: ...unless/until we have a specific licensing model in place, completely separately of the perms system...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: ...we're really limited by in world perms....
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: ...I've only read half the question...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(I don't think that's what Joe is saying, Fleep, he's saying Linden can't change full perm implicitly)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zarutian Morpork|Zarutian Morpork]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Fleep: intresting question
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If I create something with explicit licensing that says YOU CAN EXPORT, then it looks to me that 2b is forbidding that?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Notecards
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|We all use notecards
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: we have no way to manifest a license for export, am not aware even of an ad hoc mechanism.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Niotecards and links to websites
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|:(
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:robertltux McCallen|robertltux McCallen]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Fleep the current back end can't support the needed flags
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: the best way to deal with this as a creator is to host your content OUTSIDE of the SL access system.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That's sad.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Boroondas Gupte|Boroondas Gupte]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That's kinda silly, isn't it?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If I had an object that was part my content and part someone else's, should I be able to export the part that I created, or should a viewer prevent any export since it was made up of content from multiple creators?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: as a creator, you can export the stuff you have crated.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fractured ModularSystems|Fractured ModularSystems]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It seems to me the co-op build issue could be elegantly solved by saying that if you have the mod rights of a creator, you can export full permission prims they created
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Thickbrick Sleaford|Thickbrick Sleaford]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|You mean you're not aware of *mechanized enforcment* of licensing.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|what about PARTNERS, Joe. Two people do a build in SL.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe, the question raised is collaborative building
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Uni Ninetails|Uni Ninetails]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Textures R Us goes web based then... :s
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I like Fractured's idea there.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|fractured: good idea
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: LL can't allow broader distribution of content contrary to creator's intention.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:robertltux McCallen|robertltux McCallen]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|if there is interest i can put up a site to host exports
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ilana Debevec|Ilana Debevec]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Fractured... perfect solution... make it so :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: Lots of poitns raised around megaprims, microprims, collab builds -- I understand all this.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fractured ModularSystems|Fractured ModularSystems]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the logic is since the system treats actions done via mod rights like actions done by the user, you are expoirting "via proxy" similar to when you modify their item
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe, would you support adding explicit "exportable" flag?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zarutian Morpork|Zarutian Morpork]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Dahlia: I think that your content up to the parts created by others might who havent made it all-perm is exportable
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: but quite frankly, the maintenance of the value of IP is really what makes SL work well for a wide variety of stakeholders.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: should a TPV clause be found to be non-compliant with the GPL, would we be in our rights to consider that TPV clause void, because of your clear statement that you desire full GPL compliance for *ALL* developers and distributors?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: To make a different assumption, now, about prior content, is outside of the realm...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|GOING FORWARD, Joe, not RETROACTIVELY
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dale Glass|Dale Glass]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|CONCERN: Joe: Having things outside SL isn't very useful. I'd like to send some sort of signal that LL will hear, so that somebody who tries to export my content that I'm fine with being exported doesn't get banned. It would not look good for me if I promised somebody "Yes, you can export this", and then they got banned for exporting it. So I'd like LL to provide some mechanism to indicate that yes, I'm fine with it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Can you comment on Frac's idea too, if there is time? :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: there's no querstion we need a set of metra tags for a variety of perms.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|good to hear
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ilana Debevec|Ilana Debevec]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe you are acting retroactivly, and you, by your own admission, are now making a decision for them.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: Frac's idea I did not read... am behind...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Imho, nothing with less than 128 bits of entropy should be subject to IP rules :/... Clearly you can't rez a cube, resize it to 1.23 x 2.34 x 3.45 and claim copyright on it.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kadah Coba|Kadah Coba]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Has anything been said about 8(d)? (was late)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Johan Neddings|Johan Neddings]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The Q from Jacek
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|1c
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|1c
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:LordGregGreg Back|LordGregGreg Back]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[12:30] Fractured ModularSystems: It seems to me the co-op build issue could be elegantly solved by saying that if you have the mod rights of a creator, you can export full permission prims they created
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ilana Debevec|Ilana Debevec]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[12:30] Fractured ModularSystems: It seems to me the co-op build issue could be elegantly solved by saying that if you have the mod rights of a creator, you can export full permission prims they created
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|are new permission flags something that LLT is prioritizing?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ilana Debevec|Ilana Debevec]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yeah, what he said :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: other issues? Otherwise we'
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Boroondas Gupte|Boroondas Gupte]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Until we get the flag, why does a viewer have to impose restricions that the right owner(s) might not even want? Wouldn't it be better to just restrict usage of such export features rather than their implementation?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|l [Transcript] Joe Linden: otherwise we'll adjourn soon. yes, theres something being worked on now...(meaning???)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|1c
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|1c
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: should a TPV clause be found to be non-compliant with the GPL, would we be in our rights to consider that TPV clause void, because of your clear statement that you desire full GPL compliance for *ALL* developers and distributors?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Johan Neddings|Johan Neddings]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Jacek Antonelli: CONCERN: I'm not sure if this is a "wider concern", but I'd like to ask about 2B (the creator check on export) -- I would prefer it were phrased in terms of copyright, not a technical detail (creator name in the system).
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Any buy-in on Proposal Latha-1: in the preamble to 1c, after "If you are a Developer who distributes Third-Party Viewers to others, " add "and you wish to support compliant usage of your viewer to connect to SL,"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:34]
| colspan="2"|''Zarutian Morpork must go for now. Cya all''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: Morgaine, you probably need to hire a lawyer.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: can someone verbally descirbe the 1c issue?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(I hear someone laughing in the background with Joe, is that Linden Lab's lawyer? :))
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|1c, anyone?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ilana Debevec|Ilana Debevec]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe, please address Fractured's point.. it would solve co-op build issues...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: 1c deals with requirements of viewers specifically posted for being able to connect to SL.... (((Not true --L.)))
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:LordGregGreg Back|LordGregGreg Back]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[12:30] Fractured ModularSystems: It seems to me the co-op build issue could be elegantly solved by saying that if you have the mod rights of a creator, you can export full permission prims they created
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i was thinking that when joe talks about TPV it would have been a goood idea to have a lawyer present
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:robertltux McCallen|robertltux McCallen]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yeah i need a snack
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the diff between TestClient and the SL viewer would be... significant :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|LOl
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: TPV developers are not going to hire lawyers, realistically, so we're trying to ascertain whether we can really rely on the GPL. It's quite simple. "I'm a TPV developers under GPL, can I rely on the GPL's exact terms and freedoms?"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Is there any consensus that in TPV 1C ... all instances of "installing" and "installation" just need to be changed to "connecting" and "connection" ... "to Linden Lab"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ilana Debevec|Ilana Debevec]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[12:30] Fractured ModularSystems: It seems to me the co-op build issue could be elegantly solved by saying that if you have the mod rights of a creator, you can export full permission prims they created
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|How is 1c not a restriction on GPL? Only if it's rephrased to refer to CONNECTING.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|oh that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fractured ModularSystems|Fractured ModularSystems]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the idea being that your acting as them through mod rights generally
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|guess so
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Excellent idea, since you can do everything with their content anyway
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: digging out Fractured's questions...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Who is talking?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Please identify
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Ron Ghostaltar
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:LordGregGreg Back|LordGregGreg Back]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Ron i think
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|just forward it to opensoure-dev
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Ron Ghostaltar: the FSF folks say no conflict. I'll share the email.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Johan Neddings|Johan Neddings]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Ron Ghostaltar has talked just now
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ron Ghostaltar|Ron Ghostaltar]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Its me Morgaine
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Please forward to opensource-dev
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Govern Overland|Govern Overland]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|1C seems fine to me. but I see the point... Installing should be replaced with connecting to LL services.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|problem is, some prims were create at a time when export wasn't available
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Fractured: That would a good thing (you mean having Build Rights). But then again, getting someones build rights is usually not the same as getting their copy rights :/
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|created*
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Boroondas Gupte|Boroondas Gupte]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|What if they made these permissions explicit (e.g. in notecards)?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:LordGregGreg Back|LordGregGreg Back]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yes.. rapidly.. please..
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: we'll err on the side of "most restrictive use" of existing SL content, with the caveat that we need to rapidly add more metadata tags.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ron Ghostaltar|Ron Ghostaltar]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The email was forwarded to the OpenSource-Dev list
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Johan Neddings|Johan Neddings]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Possiblity through email ?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Boroondas Gupte|Boroondas Gupte]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I means for human-readable.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: notecards are spoofable, probably that's not a great approach...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Johan Neddings|Johan Neddings]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|You send in a message with the name of the user
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Johan Neddings|Johan Neddings]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and that's being kept
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Jacek Antonelli|Jacek Antonelli]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|What if you have a signed legal agreement with the creator, giving you a license to export? 2B would still restrict it. :\
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: we'll discuss more on content tagging soon; SL Enterprise it's an issue...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|In RL, we use simple plain license documents, such as a GPL license file. A notecard accompanying an object expressing the creator's intentions is fine.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: e.g. export for use behind a firewall. important to us.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it sounds like for now.. building your content on a separate grid and importing it to SL would steer clear of any murky issues
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: true, Morgaine, if it weren't so spoofable....
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Eddy, yeah
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ilana Debevec|Ilana Debevec]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe, Fractured point is about as an explicit as you can get,if someone gives me mod perms I can copy, resize, tweak, twist and whatever...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ok
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Iliana, delete too
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: correct, John, building content externally and importing it, or having creators export content for collaborative use & import & external use, is a short term solution.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Thickbrick Sleaford|Thickbrick Sleaford]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|A point Linden should consider when they aim for web2.0-ness-buzzword-compliance: most succeful web 2.0 services allow people to export their content.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|most content is built externally... except vector data itself
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:42]
| colspan="2"|''Boroondas Gupte thought the point of SL (and the SL grid) *was* collaboration''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If you've already built a great build with a partner, you're screwed, sorry. :-(
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"new restrictions on export"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ilana Debevec|Ilana Debevec]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|not talking about people no longer in world,talkming about collaborative builds, active things
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|A file containing a GPL license is totally spoofable, yet it still expresses the creator's intentions perfectly. If a creator expresses such an open license for her content, her rights should be respected.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kadah Coba|Kadah Coba]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|8d? There was conflict over this clause before.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|joe: that means the original issues have been resolved :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|:D
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Johan Neddings|Johan Neddings]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[QUESTION] When will the changes be in effect ?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Boroondas Gupte|Boroondas Gupte]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yay for the changes!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|seriously though, if you have permission from all makeers of a build and contrive your own way of exporiting it, LL can't coplain if you don't tell them and no-one complains to them
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: we seem to have wandered off into IP issues. Any other major issues?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(had a work call just got back, will have to read the transcript)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: will provide feedback in email if I spot somethign I missed.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|NOTE: it is possible to RE-create an object ENTIRELY in-world (with LSL scripts) if it is full perm, with you as creator... So, I don't see this TPVp demand to be a large problem *wink wink*
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Ron Ghostaltar: hypothetically, regarding team builds, would a viewer that allowed an option to export your and your friend's content, still be in compliance?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: No, of cours enot, not if the user is in charge.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: what we'd support is adding metadata.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:robertltux McCallen|robertltux McCallen]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Johan i think the changes are in effect NOWish (at least not later than the original 04/30)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:IFellThroughA Trapdoor|IFellThroughA Trapdoor]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|why not have a 'joint creator' option?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: there's not a short run model acceptable to us.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Eddy, we need to build openmetaverse sandbox grid for people to build stuff on :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|what meta-data?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Gosh so we have the next week or so to pull out all the stuff created with full perms sculpties and whatnot. :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Thickbrick Sleaford|Thickbrick Sleaford]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|non-automatically enforced licensing works very well for full perm textures today.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:robertltux McCallen|robertltux McCallen]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Rex like embedding a CC type license key
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: I could certainly imagine a viewer that messages a creator, if there's a collaborative group, and provide some way fo rthe actual craeator of the content to do the export.....
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|not everybody like cc
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|would LSL based export methods be affected by the TPVP?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Techwolf: sounds like you want people to cheat.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: let's be real clear, it's not about directory listing. it's for all viewers that connect; must abide by creator check.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Like I said, if you do it and no-one complains because they are already involved, LL won't be in the business of tracking down builders that do their own thing. THey just want teeth to handle official complaints
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Dahlia, LSL script is not a TPV
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: directory is orthogonal to the policy; it's a marketing tool.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fractured ModularSystems|Fractured ModularSystems]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the line blurs when you bridge them
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: am not encouraging continued use of viewers that don't do creator checks.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: that's the most significant change some teams have ahd to make.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: Because Opensim is backwards compatible with SL, common viewers are used for both. Viewers may have wider freedoms in Opensim than they have in SL. I hope you are not suggesting that restrictions have to be HARDWIRED into any viewer that connects to SL.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif: full perm objects can be exported with a legal prim + script in-world, dumping to channel 0... I guess that makes it illegal to copy&paste that output to your harddisk then?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it's easy enough to check on which grid you are on
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ilana Debevec|Ilana Debevec]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yeah, I paid good money for that :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|morgaine, no problem with that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Johan Neddings|Johan Neddings]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[QUESTION] When will the changes be in effect ?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|what latif said. its like, 3-4 lines in llstartup.cpp
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Jacek Antonelli|Jacek Antonelli]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Aleric techically it would be if your intent is to take it off SL without the creator's permission
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ilana Debevec|Ilana Debevec]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and the 'Inventory Backup' program being sold, touted as 'based on copybot' and 'submitted to LL for approval'
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I saw only the 'I' too. And I would vrey much like to examine Jacek's worries, they were very well considered.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Jacek Antonelli|Jacek Antonelli]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think the meetings have accomplished addressing the wider concerns
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: Because Opensim is backwards compatible with SL, common viewers are used for both. Viewers may have wider freedoms in Opensim than they have in SL. I hope you are not suggesting that restrictions have to be HARDWIRED into any viewer that connects to SL.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Saijanai: The whole "creator" tag is so technicaly flawed that it is impossible to base anything on it... What one would need is a complete revision history of every asset.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Techwolf: it's just technical details from here on.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: no comment?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: morgaine, yes, correct.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and again, as long as no-one complains, LL isn't going to go after someone who is using their own custom viewer to grab collaborative builds. And if you get permission from everyone involved, no-one is going to complain. Caveat emptor and all that of course
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Jacek Antonelli|Jacek Antonelli]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The inflexibility of the creator check is a bit annoying, but minor.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe is stating that viewers for SL cannot be used for interop.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|you can easily differenciate that in code
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|We were exporting objects created on our campus to a local opensim, now I can't do that even if my student employees sell me their objects. This is totally unworkable from my perspective.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: I think you've made a statement that's factual.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: No, not stating that.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: be clear then. No politics
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But that's neither here nor there I suppose for developers.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:51]
| colspan="2"|''Jacek Antonelli pokes Morgaine. Stop stirring up drama''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|jacek: have a beer for that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: lots of ways, much room for innovation, way beyond the limited scope of the TPV
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i see no issue with coding if (!connected_to_sl) ...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Nod sorry Joe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: makes no sense to focus on IP issues
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I know that's not the issue here, apologies.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: when we're talking about a wider range of interop issues.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|latif: exactly
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: viewers are either HARDWIRED to SL requirements, or they are adaptive to any world they connect. Is only HARDWIRED allowed?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|slightly off-topic: does anyone know if you can remove the "cancellation pending" through the website or do i have to call support?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Q for Joe: must a viewer with extra opensim features forbid connecting to SL?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: thanks for bearing with me.....
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|jacek. i think everybody has the right to ask their question(s) without others insinuating the want to create drama
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It looks like it Morgaine
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:robertltux McCallen|robertltux McCallen]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe look at it this way if the IP stuff is the only complaint then the job is basically done
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Jacek Antonelli|Jacek Antonelli]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks very much Joe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Johan Neddings|Johan Neddings]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Eddy, try Live Chat :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Eddy, you can but it'll cost you $10 USD :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Thickbrick Sleaford|Thickbrick Sleaford]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks Joe for listening and fixing the problems!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe is refusing to say that the TPV prevents interop.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|they want*
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: I know it has been a rocky road, appreciate your patience, we'll continue to be listening.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|latif: that's fine, what do i do?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Boroondas Gupte|Boroondas Gupte]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|\o/
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: as an aside, we'd like to copntinue to get better at interacting with the dev community.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But if TPV requires HARDWIRING in the SL restrictions, then a common viewer cannot be used for interop.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Vaalith ModularSystems|Vaalith ModularSystems]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine, do an if check.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|morgaine: that's what if statements were invented for
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: e.g. we're putting effort into VWRAP and stuff, even though we've got more than enough work to do internally.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well it can, Morgaine, so long as the viewer doesn't have extra features for other grids. ;)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|morgaine, what is the problem with wrapping the restrictions inside an if() clause?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: This TPV stuff was way overdue
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Eddy: "if" is not hardwiring. I would be happy if Joe saied "Conditional is OK"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: users have been at risk due to its lack.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|morgaine, you actually have a point there now
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: ideally, we'd have APIs that precluded rogue clients, but that's not where we're at.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: we're refactoring what we can...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fractured ModularSystems|Fractured ModularSystems]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|its software, there is no hardwire
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|MOrgaine: the whole import/export, IP and license stuff have to be redesigned for VWRAP anyway... it's something for the far future to be dealt with
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: some of the poieces won't happen for a while...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Lance: coming up over and over in chat: opensim vs SL, disabling features when connecting to SL is allowed?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Jacek Antonelli|Jacek Antonelli]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|\o/
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: short answer is yes.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Good q
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|\o/
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Nicely asked, Lance
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|great
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well Said
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Grace McDunnough|Grace McDunnough]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well said
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Jacek Antonelli|Jacek Antonelli]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Let's get ice cream
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Excellent
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Govern Overland|Govern Overland]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Disabled.. or completely non-existant in the code??
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|laugh Jacek
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe has just stated that CONDITIONAL is OK.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"greyed out"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Ice cream? chololate chip please :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ok it's definitely ice cream time
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yay.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Mint Chocolate Chip here
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So not hardwired.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Jacek Antonelli|Jacek Antonelli]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks for the meetings, Joe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Nyx Linden|Nyx Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|+1 for ice cream :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Grace McDunnough|Grace McDunnough]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thank you joe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks Joe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|thanks joe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|thank you Joe :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|thanks joe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: Ok, I'm gonna run, seeya
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Tasia Tonic|Tasia Tonic]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|thanks joe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Discrete ModularSystems|Discrete ModularSystems]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks Joe!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Chaley May|Chaley May]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|bye
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Boroondas Gupte|Boroondas Gupte]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|thanks!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kadah Coba|Kadah Coba]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks joe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Johan Neddings|Johan Neddings]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|thanks Joe :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|have a good one
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Skills ModularSystems|Skills ModularSystems]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|seeya
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|You think they pay Joe hazard pay for these?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|;)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so the only thing somebody has to do is to comment out the if statement:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks Joe. We got there in the end :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Neurocam ModularSystems|Neurocam ModularSystems]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|thanks
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:dax Ellisson|dax Ellisson]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|thanks joe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|they should
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|definitely
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Discrete ModularSystems|Discrete ModularSystems]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Weeeee!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks Rob
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|er Ron
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Discrete ModularSystems|Discrete ModularSystems]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|To the what?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks Ron
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:56]
| colspan="2"|''Ceawlin Steamweaver pinches Phox. :3''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|rex: there are a million ways for someone to subvert good intentions... the point is as long as we start with good intentions we won't be liable for other people's bad intentions
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:57]
| colspan="2"|''Thickbrick Sleaford hums "Hey Joe, where are you going with the icecream scoop in your hand?"''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Jacek Antonelli|Jacek Antonelli]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Take care, all
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Grace McDunnough|Grace McDunnough]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That was remakably productive
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Discrete ModularSystems|Discrete ModularSystems]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Oh, sorry, my sound must have clipped. ;p
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Nyx Linden|Nyx Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|tc all those that r leaving
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Ron Ghostaltar: i've forwarded the FSF email to opensource-dev.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Phox ModularSystems|Phox ModularSystems]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|What happens if I put in a bagel Ceawlin?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] voice transcript ends here.
|}

AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2010-04-20

2010-04-20T20:41:06Z

Latha Serevi: Created page with '{| |- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;" | [09:32] | style="white-space:nowrap;"|Morgaine Dinova: | style="white-space:normal;"|I only ...'

{|
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I only hear Zha
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yep, who was that?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yeah
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|me
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hello everybody
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|good grief... i cn't convince my client that i really, really, really want sound to come over the headphones
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Coolness. Oh, dratted positional audio.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Brookstone, Kopilo, Krise, Rex, XLR*, Joshua is goign to be pitchign slides in voice, taking Q&A in voice and chat
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Lemme know when to start, Zha
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'll relocate for this, to not have some people behind me.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joshua, your slide display is overlapping the cat-tail vegetation just a bit.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:XLR8RRICK Hudson|XLR8RRICK Hudson]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ratz voice is fail
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Much better location
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|thx latha, just fixed
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lemme move to the middle of the area so voice is centralized
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|also.. is there going to be a NOTE WELL notification? is this an official IETF thingie?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Quorum call
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and ugh. voice fail
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(Try relogging)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|vwrap@ietf.org
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yay! voice!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Krise Shepherd|Krise Shepherd]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i will relog i hear nothing
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And with that, I give you Joshua, and.. warn you that he CAN in fact, flick a whip properly (I have RL evidience of this)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|What format for questions Josh? At end, or interrupt?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|/
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think we can catch Josh with a questoin if its urgent, but ideally, hold it to the ned if possible
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:37]
| colspan="2"|''Free Radar HUD v1.1 by Crystal Gadgets''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'll also flag them in voce for anone who asks in Chat
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And do you have untill 11am as usual here, or need to leave earlier?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|+1
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|blame the asset server
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|https://docs.google.com/a/lindenlab.com/present/edit?id=0AfAytYlNCPECZGZ2M24yMl8yN2N0OGJueGNy&hl=en
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Blame Infinity Linden.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|meeting is in voice BTW
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Moundsa
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mystical Demina|Mystical Demina]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|was a question about http transactions
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Moundsa Mayo|Moundsa Mayo]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Electronic noise from the machine.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Switch your in-world slide
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|blargh
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|scenegraph = high latency? (did you mean low?)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|you mean low-latency?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|How bold and tongue-in-cheek is the URL proposal?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Human readable, bah.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"Sophont parsable?"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I look at the slide and i think some assumptions were made that the server would have a message queue (on note chat 'wouldn't be good for http')... the message queue can be a peer to the server... like: server<->mq<->client instead of direct server<->client
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joshua: when you say "A Web Page", could you please clarify that you're not advocating page scraping as a standard approach? I'm hoping you mean "web page" containing nothing but LLSD for example, and not pages decorated for human access.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|we could add it later if this decision turns out to be incorrect
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kopilo Hallard|Kopilo Hallard]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|xD
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|MOrgaine, I think he exactly DOES mean that we have to screen-scrape.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mystical Demina|Mystical Demina]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i guess we are assuming these services are being done in 2D
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha: hence want clarification
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:57]
| colspan="2"|''Free Radar HUD v1.1 by Crystal Gadgets''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I suggest an interrupt question, because Joshua writes "a web page" repeatedly.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Parsing a web page, in multuiple languages, makes it kind of difficult for intelligent text-to-speech processing
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'll type
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|XML, Parsing, Web page? http?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Jeez
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joshua - -
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joshua, how do you standardize interface betweeen a web page and the client, linden use secondlife:// namespace, should that be standadized
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That is what PEOPLE interact with
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mystical Demina|Mystical Demina]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i do think it makes since to seperate presentation of the services for the implementation of the service, seems we need navigation standars, but we may not need to dfine the user interface to that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|People who can read
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Newfie Pendragon|Newfie Pendragon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|people are 10% of the consumers of data
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|We don't need human pages standardized. Interop protocols need to be automatable
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Boroondas Gupte|Boroondas Gupte]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Wouldn't protocol negotiation solve this better? The result could still be a website in some cases when that's the lowest common denominator.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|HTML would be ok as long as the metadata is predictable so we can parse it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i think the quote was "there is NOTHING in search / update that requires it to be integrated into the protocol."
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Newfie Pendragon|Newfie Pendragon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|separate presentation from model
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [09:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|s/update/profile update/
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [09:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Ah, that is a separate question
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yes, leave search out of VWRAP, but do not at the same time say how it should be done
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|we need standardized way to perform client actions, like mime-type
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mystical Demina|Mystical Demina]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|if we define the virtal world objects in a way we can access like SQL does data, then would be a good standard, not sure that standard is part of that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|what LL uses as secondlif:// uri space
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Search is a separate issue. But you mention MANY things as to use a "web page", and many of them are infrastructure
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Just leave SEARCH out. I am fine with that. But do not suggest solutions
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think Zha is answering, but can't hear
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the secondlife:/// URI should go away
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Meadhbh, but we need a standard way to perform actions
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'ms uggesting that the distcintion may be that there is a "SearcH tool
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That is a good question. ADA stuff needs to be able to search objects in order to work.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|search without teleport is useless
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and therne there is "how do I mark up prims, and regoins ansd such"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so that we expose search items
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|nod Techwolf
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Plowing onwards
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|What about having the "opaque URL to a human-readable page" as one lowest common denominator option, but not the end-all? Doesn't it prevent automated _anything_?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but here's the question... if VWRAP defines the mechanism for delivering these named "services on the web page," does VWRAP need to define the names of the services?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Coding a query as a standardized URI format, but with additional options to selct response formats.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Your answer is only "Yes" to browser interface because you've given yourself the false requirement of "human web page".
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Making the SL viewer act like a bad web browser was Linden's decision. It does not have to be that way
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Mojito++
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I liked these slides more when I was certain that Joshua didn't really mean it.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|that doesn't work, "search is a web page", you need to define how do you tp from a web page... web page -> client actions need defining
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|maybe define the names as UIRs, then?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|There are other paradigms
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|s/UIRs/URIs/
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|we have a standard for that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|client application launch message
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Client Applicatoin Launch
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|those triggers need stardadizing
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|what about the client application launch message?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|could we just use that?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|TP from a web page is useful as a way in from the Web, but it's not VW-VW interop.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|since, it's defined and implemented?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If the viewer itself is doing this query, it can just do the TP itself.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mystical Demina|Mystical Demina]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|if search is local to a virtual world, i see less need for a stadard, but if search crosses across virtual worlds then i see a need for a standard
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Boroondas Gupte|Boroondas Gupte]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|vwrap:// ?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|<object ...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Mead, it's not only TP, "show on map", etc etc
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Consider a response to a serach that is formatted as a map..
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|@latif: "here is an entity representing a location in the virtual world, please show it on a web page for me."
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think there''s things beyond "Teleport to" that youmay want to do with the map api
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|+1 mea
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|this is not FB
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|<object> tags probably more reliable means than url mangles for search/tp
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i can think of dozens search things that go beyond map and tp
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|or even... "here is an entity representing an agent, please get the location then show the location on the web page"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"Show me on a map where the things matching this query are located"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yet urls should be optional
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|URI
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|URI
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|you find a person, how do you IM them, "open profile" action or some such
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|URI
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|+1 zha
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|URIs not URLs
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|A URI to identify an avatar.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|also. it seems to tick off zero
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|are these slides available online?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|https://docs.google.com/a/lindenlab.com/present/view?id=0AfAytYlNCPECZGZ2M24yMl8yN2N0OGJueGNy&hl=en
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|url is subtset of uri
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ty :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Inventory has no business being world-side anyway. It should be in the client, and only assets should live outside in asset stores/
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morg++
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The lowest common denominator says, "This URI deal with land opaquely". But MANY users of the protocol will want to add some structure to that. "This URI manipulates the following set of XML semantics". What if we define, in VWRAP, how to say WHETHER there are semantics and WHERE to find them? w/o trying to pre-define the semantics.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Or in the AD maybe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|or if we wanted to be fancy, we could say XML + XSLT
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|How can we avoid ad hoc screen-scraping? We need a way to add structure as needed.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|How about we just eliminate the viewer and the server synthesize video to stream it to us? I think maybe you are taking this "everything is a web page" too far.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|r these "web pages" going to be in xlm?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|anyone who has worked with html "tree" controls, knows how big a fail that is lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|@rex. i think the answer is "maybe"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Mojito: it's the webbies, they have only one tool in their toolkit, so everything has to be a nail.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If everything is going to be a web page, wouldn't it make more sense to make SL a subset of a web browser (firefox plugin) instead of vice-versa? <_<
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:10]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry waves at Alexandria Linden''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|LOL
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|How will the client search though inventory when all it has is a human readable web page?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Newfie Pendragon|Newfie Pendragon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|How the data is presented/managed to the user has to be separated from the data, otherwise it makes automated tools subject to any non-functional (look/feel) change of the page
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"find my lost socks"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it could be possible to make a java applet to explore sl:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|WebDav?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|eToys inventory
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|@rex. i'm hoping to have a JavaScript + Web3G client
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"Here is my store catalog - I present it to you as an Inventory tree"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i don't think that js is powerful enough for 3d rendering
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|no he's saying just send html view of the inventory
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Web technology == good, but that does NOT need to mean using human-style web pages.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|snow-375 lets me make an deatch inventory window... drag and drop
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|we need data, not UI
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yes, use XML or something easy to parse
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha++
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I don't want to see " " in my inventory
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|xml is not that easy/fast to parse:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|snow-375 is data
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Not in the prgramtaic pipe, Mojtio
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It is better than unconstrained HTML
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kopilo Hallard|Kopilo Hallard]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|xhtml >_>
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and w000t! you get Web3d view of your items!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha, that is not what Joshua is saying
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|http://www.squeakland.org/showcase/everyone/
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Newfie Pendragon|Newfie Pendragon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the webpage should be providing the business logic to convert the human-UI interaction to the API interface
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mystical Demina|Mystical Demina]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|architecturely as long as we decouple the source and destination with some kind of indirection mechanism we can use any source and destination as long as we provide the proper adapter
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|he's saying "no standard way to transmit inventory" except for UI as a web page
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha: it comes down to one basic question: are we supporting webpage scraping as an "interop technique"? I'm going to fight that tooth and nail.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|KK Zha, that's different.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I don't think it's VWRAP's job to to decide exactly how MUCH of the to standardize, right now, for all time. VWRAP just needs an extensible way to describe AT WHAT LEVEL pairs of entities are interacting, one if which might be "opaque URI for topic X".
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so the idea is "do both programatic interface AND HTML interface. protocol comes in when you do something 'interesting' like rez something in world or give it to someone else."
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|WebDav may be RESTful sidekick if it is passive
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Perhspas a small numbers of conformance levels defined?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Disagree that we must focus on "minimum." We must focus on "extensible".
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Mead, inventory is interesting thing
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lor Gynoid|Lor Gynoid]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Pity VRML didn't fulfill its promise. :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha++
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Collada?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|+1 :Latha
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mystical Demina|Mystical Demina]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|there are assets that the server cares about, like objects with physics, but there may be objects that are redenered that the only the client sees, like video stream
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|collada is a little too heaviweight
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|html is not a data format, it's UI standard
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|We have HTML 1.0, HTML 2.0, etc. They build
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha += 1000. Not "minimal", but "minmal extensible"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but it's great for an upload service
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kopilo Hallard|Kopilo Hallard]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|html is not a ui standard... >_>
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha++
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|HTML is extensible
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Newfie Pendragon|Newfie Pendragon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|XHTML is extensible
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The web succeeded becuase the fundamental mechanism was extensible
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|eXtensiable Markup Language
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The minumoiun http is "GET /". Everything else is an extention of that.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|if the only standard way of getting inventory data is html, that's a big fail
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|@latif. no. that's not the proposal
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the standard way of presenting the inventory is HTML
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kopilo Hallard|Kopilo Hallard]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|actually it is a tree...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Those inventory objects should be self-contained
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the protocol doesn't say hownotecards work, it only says how their dat is transmitted
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yet we not there yet to implement self-contained
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|mead, that's still a fail
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so in other words... you don't ask the server to "give me a list of all of my inventory" but rather "give me an URL to a web page that will display my inventory"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|a file?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|thier data*
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|thier8
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|a notcard that carried it's own script on how to read/write it's object, for example
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i can't type*
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Mead, that assumes client is a human reading some html page
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|A human who can read
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mystical Demina|Mystical Demina]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|shoiuldn't interop provide a way to descover if these services are available and what protocol is being used for them
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Free Portal|Free Portal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i think html5 can.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So.. Taking this as a provocative discussion.. The goal is to take questoins you have out to the VWRAP mailing list and raising those questoins explicitly
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|if the viewer has to parse human readable html pages doesn't that add additionals delays?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|In some cases probably yes (combat game worlds E.G.)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lor Gynoid|Lor Gynoid]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Does your Friends list need to be a tree? :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Parsing HTML is very fast, compared to 3D rendering
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kopilo Hallard|Kopilo Hallard]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lor: yes but is it no :p
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Free Portal|Free Portal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|look this http://googlecode.blogspot.com/2010/04/html5-quake-ii.html
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Does VWRAP really need to be extensible, as changes could destablize interop
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Newfie Pendragon|Newfie Pendragon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|html pages are subject to regular changes as the PR team wants the logo/theme/etc changed....that stuff causes unnecessary parsing burden on automated consumers
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It MUST be extensible
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"Group" has many different meanings. I think we should split them apart for VWRAP. For example, a communicating "group" should use a discrete term for its members than a term denoting some other grouping.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But lets try to avoid the Microsoft-vs-everybodyelse situation
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|another protocol can be extensible... it doesn't have to be part of vwrap
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kopilo Hallard|Kopilo Hallard]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|brb
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lor Gynoid|Lor Gynoid]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|You need an open-ended way to attach attributes to Friend entries?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yuo mean someone thought it would be a be-all end-all?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yes yes!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Groups insersect with VW only as regards permissions
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:23]
| colspan="2"|''Fleep Tuque scratches her head.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lor Gynoid|Lor Gynoid]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|You need an open-ended way to attach (na,ed) attributes to Groups, and FRiends?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lor Gynoid|Lor Gynoid]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|named*
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|You'd have to decouple a lot of things in groups to not make it integral - land permissions, obj permissions, all sorts of thigns.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kopilo Hallard|Kopilo Hallard]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|pluse fail breb
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And, in many ways, Fleep, that m ight make all of that easier.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|A good thing would be to somewhat standerized so that one cleint that is currently connected to one grid can IM someone on another grid.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|shoulds collada be part of vwrap... nah... it's it own protocol... be vwrap could refer to an dae uri
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Permissions can refer to "entities", whether those are Groups, Accounts, or something else. Another URI?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but*
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|nod sure, current implementation of groups is like a hydra, way too much going on there.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:24]
| colspan="2"|''Saijanai Kuhn thought he invented "tourist" o well''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|This rock here seems to be owned by http://ibm.com.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Oops, skipped forward a slide
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joshua: it's incorrect to infer that the tourist scenario implies no direct access to land. Rights may be as comprehensive in remote lands as in local lands.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|return objects?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|we'll talk about it offline
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I am a "tourist" in my friend's house, but he might let me use the bathroom.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The sim can hold them for later
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it's not as bad as you might think within a trust domain
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Pixel Gausman|Pixel Gausman]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|+1 on removing up/download for assets/textures
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|No, no, it's when I'm on YOUR sim, with my AD and asset server that it gets messier
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|+200
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lor Gynoid|Lor Gynoid]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|You might get kitchen rights in a friend's house, too...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|There is no single trust domain with max rights. You may have as many rights to local land as to remote land.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But stranger walking up to the door gets no bathroom rights
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joshua, I love a lot of this talk -- the emphasis on boldly chopping things out of the required set; and specifics about what might be in or out. But then you seem to be saying that everything in the "out" pile should be opaque URIs to VWRAP, now and for all time. This would really suck, since we want programmatic ways of doing interop. If VWRAP can't encapsulate and name these, we will work around VWRAP or smuggle binary blobs through it.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|For these, what's really hard, is what parts of this need to expose to the users
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lor Gynoid|Lor Gynoid]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Region tree?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Just probe a coordinate set, and get properties back
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Volumes, not 2d parcels, btw ;)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|coordinate ST
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Newfie Pendragon|Newfie Pendragon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|resource allocation
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|SET
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i am sorry. but every vw will have at least one parcel
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yes, volumes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joshua: well phrased there --- "allows but does not require"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|An upper bound on my house box prevents my red walls going up 2000m
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lor Gynoid|Lor Gynoid]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If a parcel is time-related it is 4-D? :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Number of dimenions is a per-world decision
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Newfie Pendragon|Newfie Pendragon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|only if you can travel that 4th dimension
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|blarg. voice fail
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:29]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry looks at Lor and squinches her eyes with an insta-migraine''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I am travelling thru time just sitting here... at 1 sec per sec
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|http://www.squeakland.org/showcase/everyone/
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i've been looking for a place to insert a tensor in the protocol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:30]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry gloswers at Mea''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lor Gynoid|Lor Gynoid]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Arguably, having access based on a parcel rental period...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|etyoys has a vector behavior added
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|To his disadvantage, of course. And charge him VAT
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kopilo Hallard|Kopilo Hallard]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kopilo Hallard|Kopilo Hallard]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|points to whoever said volcanos
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|tp failures...how to grafully fail. :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lor Gynoid|Lor Gynoid]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Lootable inventories, with access methods? :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|client-side scriptability... http://twitpic.com/1gl71s
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kopilo Hallard|Kopilo Hallard]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|data types >_>
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|blargh. my voice is hosed. brb.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vwrap
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Newfie Pendragon|Newfie Pendragon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|data->readable = easy, readable->data = hard
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:31]
| colspan="2"|''WordzKicker Payer v1.03: $10 WordzKicker - Latha Serevi, you were KICKED from slot 6 by Molly Eberdene! You won $9!''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Please note that LLSD is serializable using bianry formats too. Therefore, please don't only think "web page" as a delivery mechanism for LLSD.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|we do discuss things, but not in voice:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And yes, not in voice, in general
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The issue I see with VWRAP, at hand, is if there are multiple peers... like what I do with SNOW-375... two programs on the same machine, one handles the inventory the other handles the render
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|web pages are not easelly scrapable for parsing. Like text to speech devices.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lor Gynoid|Lor Gynoid]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Rendering some stuff in Arabic with glyps is hopefully not a troubling issue. :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Tech++
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yay! running code!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|VWPP = Virtual World Politics Protocol -- still not chartered
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kopilo Hallard|Kopilo Hallard]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Techwolf - xhtml-strict can be but it is definatly not as easy to parse as say cleartext
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|heh
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|does that mean that open source implementations are the true standard?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lor Gynoid|Lor Gynoid]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Meta politics...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Code, Open Source or Proporiatary
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|IETF doesn't care which
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Does LL have a beta grid with VWRAP implemented?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|how can it be proprietary?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|talking about implementations, will ll ever provide a sim for testing vwrap?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well, the IETF model is "Here is the RFC, and you use code to validate it)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Newfie Pendragon|Newfie Pendragon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|protocol != code, protocol may be open, code might be closed
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it would need to be open
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joshua: while Hurli's work was great, it was NOT done on the VWRAP list. It was done behind closed doors in negotiations between LL, IBM and Hurli. Please stomp on that.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yeah, put a stop to that joshua
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the spec is the standard. implementations are informational only
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:36]
| colspan="2"|''Joshua Linden will got on that, Eddy''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|how could you tell if the protocol portion is closed?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|fwiw... this is one of the differences between the VWRAP effort and Hypergrid and MPEG-V... different focuses... different ideas about how to build a standard
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Eddy == Hurli. I'm not sure if John actually meant he was advocating negotiations behind closed doors.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|;-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and OpenCobalt
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Josh, just so we don't spend all of our time rebutting something you're NOT saying ... could you say a few words about extensibility? What do you think should be done by people who have a different idea of "minimal set" than you do? Screen scraping? Non VWRAP protocol? I hope neither of those, but then what?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(i didn't foget about you, sai)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|we need to break through the closed doors of #vwrap on Freenode and committing the code to openmetaverse.googlecode.com :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Newfie Pendragon|Newfie Pendragon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|J2EE is open, but websphere isn't.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Newfie Pendragon|Newfie Pendragon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|tomcat is open
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lor Gynoid|Lor Gynoid]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Need a standard for 'closed doors'? :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|@latif. let's gab about your requirements
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I firmly believe that there's no One True Way. OpenCobalt will have a place in VWRAP, I am positive
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|J2EE is a crime against humanity
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kopilo Hallard|Kopilo Hallard]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Prepare to sudder learning obscure XML formats ;) if you want to submit a draft, but we'll help
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Josh - so VWRAP must stop at opaque URL, and not even give a _name_ to sub-protocols?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Newfie Pendragon|Newfie Pendragon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|*suffer
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i think there is a disconnect here. about what v
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:37]
| colspan="2"|''Meadhbh Oh had to implement CorbaSEC Level 2 a couple times''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|what VWRAP is
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|VWRAP is what the working group says it is.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|isn't there a blog post about it somw=ewhere?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|we know it is not a UI
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Remember: I want to be told "I'm wrong" - but with details! Ideas! Implementations!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Pixel Gausman|Pixel Gausman]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|carving into stone tablet == IETF tools
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|+1 Morgaine
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|voice failling(
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|VWRAP is NOT what a closed subgroup decides it is behind closed doors.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i'm actually getting pretty good at it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So Josh's proposal for extensibility is "Go prepare a draft somewhere else"?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it is clear to me now that VWRAP does not aim to create 3D web with a universal client. it looks like we will still have to have "lidnen viewer", "osgrid viewre" "xxx world viewer"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:39]
| colspan="2"|''Dahlia Trimble suspects the open source implementation wins''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|What's your proposal, Josh?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|should we have another meeting to talk about what ewe've got?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I suspect the combo of code and spec wins
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|LLIDL
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|LLSD
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|deployment models
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Pixel Gausman|Pixel Gausman]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|thx, Josh. especially the analysis on the existing UDP protocol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|what people use wins, the spec should reflect it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but there are SOME ideas about extensibility right now
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i'll do it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i have some spare time this week
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|When we're responding to this talk, what are we responding to? I think it's "vague unspoken stuff that Josh half said".
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Dahlia: whatever people implement and document (and people use) will win, true
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Newfie Pendragon|Newfie Pendragon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|what people use = MS Office (shudders)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|we REALLY should document what we've got now
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|or what we think there's general agreement on
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But there is no analysis in the vrap list or drafts, right? So we're responding to a void?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yup. also
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the charter listss what we think we're going to do
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Newfie Pendragon|Newfie Pendragon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"when will X be standardized?" instead "will X be part of VWRAP, and if so, when?"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joshua: I like your general call for a minimalist set of interfaces standardized as an extensible protocol. But big proviso on the "web page" issue, because LLSD is binary serializable and that binary serialization is not necessarily sent over HTTP (even though it may be kicked off through a cap).
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the key message is each world will have their own client, no universal client, no 3d web
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hm I didn't understand that, Latha
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Pixel Gausman|Pixel Gausman]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif: hope you are wrong
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Odddly I took jjust the oppotise Latif
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Pixel, "inventory is just a web page" as a standard
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|no data standard
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So far it looks like a common 3D viewer, sitting alongside FireFox...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Pixel Gausman|Pixel Gausman]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|rez out of inventory does
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|also. i put together a list of docs we agree'd to during the chartering process here
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|http://www.meadhbh.org/vwrap/documents
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Pixel Gausman|Pixel Gausman]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but inventory viewing/renaming, etc is web based
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|each world will have their own client... nah
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|each avatar may have their own client
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha++
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|just like each web site has its own client... oh wait
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|nod that was my take, if you take out the specific junk the better?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It is true that decluttering the 3D protocol, the better
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lor Gynoid|Lor Gynoid]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|A universal client might have plug-ins to handle some world's extra services?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|IE?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|bleh
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thank you Joshua
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|thanks Josh for putting that all together
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|w00t! +1 josh / zha for organizing this
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it was clearly a lot fo analysis behind those ideas
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|thank you =)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Requiring to have IE to view stuff is a bad idea.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|TY Josh :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|what all world will have in common will be the ability to copybot thing from one to the other:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|http://waveplace.com/resources/tutorials/movie.jsp?id=106
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lor Gynoid|Lor Gynoid]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks for presentation and discussion.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:46]
| colspan="2"|''Meadhbh Oh is getting back to work''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|using a browser:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Meadhbh Oh|Meadhbh Oh]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|cheers folks
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So, one last reminder "the mailing list is the place for much of this discussion"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I can see services that are references to downloadable plugins or scripts that provide new capabilities on the fly
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ah, i had a meeting and was late to the discussion. will there be any more VWRAP gatherings in SL before april 30th?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and.. casual informal discussoin here over the next few weeks is excelent
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Eddy, the policy has changed
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|they killed the worst stuff
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:47]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry ducks out''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Sai +1 exactly .... 20+ year old discussion
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|e.g. the etoys showcase page
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|wait TPV policy you mean
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yeah
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|oh right ok sorry got confused there
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I thikn Eddy meant the TPV policy
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|that meeting is at noon right?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hi Eddy, not that I know of.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|tpv policy gota tweak, and Joe Miller's got another discussion brrownbag on that at when, noon SL?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|with Joe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|nod
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I see the protocol as trafficking in "links to data provided by services" ... it tells you where the service is, and you use whatever protocol is required to obtain the data.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But they have already responded to last week's beating up
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|morgaine: +1
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Meeting with Joe is at Linden Estate Services (157,134,37)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|There's some tangle that's not entirely clear in my head as extactly when you want to say 'Herey ou get an HTML renderable service" and "here you get a programtic API"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|at noon SLT
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|In preparation for the Joe brown-bag, is there anything online I can read ahead of time?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine right. It might be an HTML web page only, or it might be a list of options or it might be a pure CAP type thingie
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I look at Collada to see a working-model for the bounds of extensibility
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Dzonantas. Hardly
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha, looks at onlline TPV
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Imagine etoys + OpenGL for example
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|See the changes at http://secondlife.com/corporate/tpv.php
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=Yd1j1EdE
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|WHo has the new TPV URL?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Anybody got a diff?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Collada has do its refinery, Sai...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|there we go
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif has a diff
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kopilo Hallard|Kopilo Hallard]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|viewerdirectory.secondlife.com or something
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|NOt at all the same thing, Dzonatas
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|http://pastebin.com/Yd1j1EdE
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i g2g to do something really fast. tc people
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Plugins are unavoidable, because otherwise VW clients would have to contain *everything* within them.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|wow!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kopilo Hallard|Kopilo Hallard]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|http://viewerdirectory.secondlife.com/
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That sould be the diff
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|they actually fixed it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks, looking at the pastebin diff.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Eddy, yeah
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yes I think they made somesignificant changes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lljoe needs a cookie :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|that should satisfy a lot of people's concerns
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The bad stuff is generally removed
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|satisfies mine
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|mine too
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe really wants to be a good guy on this, I think
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|7a in particular
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|what am i going to complain about now?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hehe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Ummm
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Heh
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|how about stalled vwrap progress
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|What surprised me was that Jow was able to get TPTB to yield so quickly
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|We'llfin you something Eddy, don't want you to be lazy
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|AHHH
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Code Faster Zha
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i haven't seen the draft changes to the LLSD docs
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Collada has much input for what is 'minimal' for various formats and combined them into a single protocol... it extensibilities means that what custom XYZ data added to a collada file means it needs custom refiniery XYZ to compile it for platofmr ABC
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|TPTB The Powers That Be
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|platform*
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|mind you I'm not advocating etoys per se, only pointing out the capabilities and how they might fit into a 3D shared experience. Not ust collaborative tools and games, but more pervaisive stuff too
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i defined a mock LLSD serialization for avatar appearance the other day. was 1.5MB of JSON or 500KB of LLSD. hooray for terrible JSON binary serialization
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|1c is not GPL compliant. You may not impose "further restrictions" other than those stated in GPLv2 associated with your license.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Then later on they say "It wasnot our intent to violate the GPL". Thats something...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|INTENT
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|at one end, 2 or more people might agree to DL an etoy-like collaboration tool or game
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hm Morgaine
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|at the otehr, entire physics and other 3D world behaviors might end up as scripted extensions to your client
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|zha: don't code too fast you'll make me look bad. i still don't have rez_avatar/request in opensim
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|GPLv2 is very specific about the "no further restriction". It even gives an example in the FAQ to highlight it. TPV clause 1c is in total conflict, since it places a restriction on distribution beyond the restrictions inherent in GPLv2.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|6. Nothing in this Policy is intended to modify the terms of the GPL.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine: If they addeded ".. that connect to Second Life"? i.e. If you are a Developer of Third-Party Viewers that connect to Second Life
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yes, they need to resolve that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha: if nothing is intended, why does it state that "must disclose"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Saijanai, of course... that's what we mean by self-contained inventory obejcts
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well, I need to sort out an update to the 0.7 tree that includes the current OGXP code too
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Dozantas, OK
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|GPL is for software distribution. That is separate for Terms of Service in connecting
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That's probably the topic for today -- rephrasing 1c to refer to "if you're a dev, and you want your TPV to be allowed to connect..." or some such.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|nod
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That is a good way to phrase it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I *think* that the 0.7 code is almost real enough that I can imagine gettign back into the tree and looking at how to wedge the OGPX/VWRAPX code in
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kopilo Hallard|Kopilo Hallard]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|sleepy time for me
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kopilo Hallard|Kopilo Hallard]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|enjoy
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|zha: we almost have it done, just no commits yet
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|They can't regular TPVs that don't connect to their services, but they can regulate TPVs that DO connect to then. Or have a default "Connect to SL grid" option or osmething.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|er regulate
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Oh.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Eddy, we should talk
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Mojito: not good enough. GPL developers for SL are not 2nd class GPL citizens compared to GPL devs who do not develop for SL.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Chaley May|Chaley May]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|where can i see the slideshow that joshua was showing? i came late
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(I looked in September/October and it changed so much as I was coding it I finally threw up my hands and wiated)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/10mar/slides/vwrap-6.pdf
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Chaley
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|slideshow: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/10mar/slides/vwrap-6.pdf
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Chaley May|Chaley May]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ty fleep :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:PulseBurst Flow|PulseBurst Flow]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|https://docs.google.com/a/lindenlab.com/present/view?id=0AfAytYlNCPECZGZ2M24yMl8yN2N0OGJueGNy&hl=en
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Chaley May|Chaley May]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|tnx
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:PulseBurst Flow|PulseBurst Flow]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|is more up to date
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lunch break....
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Chaley May|Chaley May]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ok ty
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|nod must do some work too
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Chaley May|Chaley May]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|going to go to Andrew Lindens now
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha: can you adequately represent the tourist deployment in your talks with Eddy?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|thanks all
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Chaley May|Chaley May]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|bye
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'll be heading to OSgrid meeting
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Oh, Zha crashed?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha: can you adequately represent the tourist deployment in your talks with Eddy?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|She's totally inadequate to that task, Morgaine...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I didn't crash
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hardly, Zha is multi-talented :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:59]
| colspan="2"|''Dahlia Trimble waves and poofs... bye all :)''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And, anything that impinges on spec ends p on vwrap
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha: yes/no on Q?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Cyu Dahlia
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [10:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|if Eddy and I chat it's about details like code checkins
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|zha never calls anymore... :-(
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [10:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hehe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But, yes, I'll make sure tourist is in our discussion
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Free Portal|Free Portal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|adios every one
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Heh. I'll be back calling soon
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm not sure how to cope with Linden making Eddy happy tho ;)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well if there is only one asset service provided in the protocol, then there is no tourism, period. So I don't want to see a blocking of tourism by de facto implementation.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think every place wherey ou can get an X
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i'm not sure how to cope with it either. that was an unexpected turn of events
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|is a map, so I'm not too worried
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I really don't like singltones
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so the state of vwrap is that it is still mutable due to capabilities
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|More than that, Dzon, it's also a prety extensible design
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|When we mess that up, I'm sure people will slap us hard
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha: it's only extensible if there is a LIST of asset services. If there is only one, it's non-extensible.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i just worry about the long poll requirement, it takes up a resource
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well, that's a "no singleton" issue
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i saw someone tweet the other day "designing a protocol is sort of like getting a tattoo" :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|or i should say it holds a resource
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And I'm against singletons, so we'll push on that hard
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha: yeah, but we have a singleton in the old CB
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Cool, Zha
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:03]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry didn't code it ;)''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|morgaine: i can promise you that the initial prototype vwrap implementation will make almost everyone unhappy. it's a fairly complex beast to get working (if you are building a complete virtual world stack), and i don't have time to add every policy decision and service choice that people want
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But that's code, not spec
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but by the same token, i don't have time to write the code in a way that prevents specific usages (nor do i want to), so... feel free to improve on alpha v1
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And in terms of long poll, at the spec level, I think its going to be 90% abstracted out to "Two way pipe here" if I get my way.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Eddy: yeah, I know, but I'm talking about specs, not code. As long as spec says "1+ asset services", I'm happy with an initial implementation having only one.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Spec shoudl acyually say 0+
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Um
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|OK, 0+
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Seriously
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Eg. chat requires no asset service
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I can do perfectly nice things with that model
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|right
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|zha: speaking of long poll, i now have a C# server and client for web sockets :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yes, agreed Zha
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Which if we get a matching one on the client side would be loverly
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I for one will be much happer when the long poll goes the way of fax machines
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|seedCaps["event_queue_websocket"] = OSD.FromUri("ws://..."); // :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Eddy: coo :-))) You probably have more than the websocket WG then :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|haha
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Oh, now, now, Hybi keeps my mail box nice and warm
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Dear god those peeps can talk and argue
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Does anyone have a nice C++ websocket impl that matches?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|actually, i remember posting the code for my unity3d client that went through a vwrap login and got a websocket capability at the end
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hmm good question
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yes, yes you did
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I would love to see someone slip a websocket impl into snowglobe 2
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|zha: yes! the sirikata guys
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zha: I'd like to play with that too.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Oh! Of course
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the day snoglobe2 compiles is a good day
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And ergo, a C++ websocket impl that BSD licenses
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|they had an implementation before anyone even knew what websockets were, heh. daniel was quick to the punch
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Could someone give us a 1-line update on where Sirikata are nowadays?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:09]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry smiels''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|*smiles
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|They've been pretty quiet this month. Probably coding up a storm ;)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|doesn't chrome/chromium implemetn web sockets?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|morgaine: they're working on building a web-based client for their platform using one of the in-browser 3d solutions
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Unity, yes?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Eddy: cool. Wish they'd appear on MMOX
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lkalif: yeah but i think the sirikata implementation is a lot more isolated and easier to drop into something like the SL viewer
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|zha: no, web3d or ogl or one of those
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Oh fark
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I keep hoping mroe people line up with unity
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|oh, no worries about that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|linux people hate unity :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Unity people reject Linux
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:11]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry ponders the continual religion and sighs''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|unity is becoming huge. and once version 3 rolls out it will be even bigger. the game industry is fawning over it these days
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yeah
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i wonder what mono version is unity3
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It does some things I don't love, but it seems like a sweet spot
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|2.6
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Big mistake, putting even more into web browsers. Fricking webbies.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ah, and 3.5 compiler profile?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mystical Demina|Mystical Demina]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|all my projects are on unity now
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yeah. it will be a recent mono because they've been working with miguel and crew at novell to get better soft debugging support into mono
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|cool
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so the hope is unity 3 will have real debugging support
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i got two-way going on with SNOW-375... partially optional as GETs do a one-way... and if the cap doesn;t exist for the route back then it stays one-way
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the libomv could go almost unmodified in unity
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|right
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i wonder if there is a way to decode jpeg2000
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mystical Demina|Mystical Demina]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the are working on XNA/.net support
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lkalif: yeah, csj2k
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|right, csj2k is fully managed
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|of course it will need to be hacked up depending on whether or not we get System.Drawing
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|well looks like making a SL/OpenSim client would be doable in unity
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm not thrilled with pushign rich content (3d shader stuff) into browsers, but.. I am happier doing it once than three times, and unity seems a good way to do it as any
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|*as good
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lkalif: if you start working on it let me know
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|embedding mono has many advantages, that calling unmanaged from mono
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|they have api that totally bypasses p/invoke
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so you could go native speed on c# -> display updates
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|more like a way to provide a built-in DLL if you embed mono
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Eddy, will do
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|waiting for 3.0 to materialize
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [11:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and then see what needs cutting from libomv to make it run
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [11:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And on that happy note, code to write prior to Joe's noon brownbag
|}

AW Groupies/Chat Logs/JoeLindenTPVBrownbag-2010-04-20

2010-04-20T20:39:37Z

Latha Serevi: Created page with '{| Text and voice chat transcript from the Joe Linden TPV policy brown-bag meeting, 4-13-2010 noon PDT. Lines beginning with the string [Transcript] were transcribed (often p...'

{|
Text and voice chat transcript from the Joe Linden TPV policy brown-bag meeting, 4-13-2010 noon PDT.
Lines beginning with the string [Transcript] were transcribed (often
paraphrased) from SL Voice by volunteer transcriptionist Latha Serevi.

|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: Okay, let's get started
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:JenzZa Misfit|JenzZa Misfit]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Robin Cornelius|Robin Cornelius]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|relay is go!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aklo Modan|Aklo Modan]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i can't hear anything
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: Thanks for coming back...it's a followup, may not need the whole hour...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|wait until v2 shared media gives u malware:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hi zarutian
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ok hear it - but destorted again
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: Fokls seem to have found the changes that were made already....
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zarutian Morpork|Zarutian Morpork]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Aklo: try to get to Linden Estate Services 4 it works good here
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe, I gather you were unsuccessful.Joe: the new TPV is still utterly GPL non-compliant.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aklo Modan|Aklo Modan]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|is there a call-in number?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Johan Neddings|Johan Neddings]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Robin, got the link for oSG ?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joe Linden|Joe Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|http://secondlife.com/corporate/tpv.php
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The diff is here: http://pastebin.com/Yd1j1EdE
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zarutian Morpork|Zarutian Morpork]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Aklo: no phone bridge today I gather
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: the new TPV is still utterly GPL non-compliant.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: what we did here, based on your feedback and other discussions....
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: ...was make three changes to the policy.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|morgaine, the tpv has nothing to do with what is allowed with the source aND WHAT ISNT
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: I think those changes are all reflected in the diff that Twchwolf dropped in...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|TPV 1c *specifically* violates GPLv2 because it states "If you are a Developer who distributes Third-Party Viewers to others .... you must disclose ... <stuff>". The GPLv2 FAQ gives a *specific* example of a mandatory required disclosure that is GPL non-compliant, and it's virtually identical to the one in the TPV.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: I'll simply mention that the two most significant changes were in secion 7,
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|\o/
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine: <ronoverdrive> 2nd thing is I got a reply from the FSF regarding the TPVP
??? <ronoverdrive> according to Brett Smith from the FSF the TPVP does -NOT- conflict with the GPL
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ron Ghostaltar|Ron Ghostaltar]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine: I got in contact with the FSF, the TPVP is compliant
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: 7a, 1st section, dropped the statement "if you're a developer, then you take responsibility...."
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: Since it caused pbs, for people, we ;simply removed.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: And farther down, omitted "devleop and distribute".
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Now instead of forcing libity on devoloper for user actions. Its now just devoloper OR user accecpts risks and devoloper can use stander disclaimer for distrubation.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Thickbrick Sleaford|Thickbrick Sleaford]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgain: yes but... the TPV is not a license for the software, but for the service.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: And a final change, 8f makes clear that we don't intend to modify the GPL license terms.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Oh, "develop and distribute" was removed? I must be looking at an old one
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(I have 80% destortion on the voice)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yep, it's gone now Morgaine
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: in the spirit of being explicit -- I had made this statement repeatedly, but wanted to put it in there.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|In 7a if that's where you mean
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zarutian Morpork|Zarutian Morpork]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine: refresh it?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:robertltux McCallen|robertltux McCallen]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morg the changes were done like today
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The GPL is a proven legil liecience., the tpv hasn't.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Robin Cornelius|Robin Cornelius]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Sorry Aleric, i;ve got nothing now myself
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: these chgs reflect the 2nd round of changes...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: I'd like to see if those changes meet the primary concerns...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm pretty happy with the changes.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: ...consensus concerns. I've heard some other indivicdual concerns also, ...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|me too, as far as section 7 goes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|nod yes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: particilarly want to aaddress things that are causing people to leave before the 30th.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Boroondas Gupte|Boroondas Gupte]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If it's pending you can cancel the cancelation.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Still some concerns with 1c?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: Other questions or concerns?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Conflicting with GPL?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:robertltux McCallen|robertltux McCallen]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|if the FSF thinks its kosher and and conflict with the GPL means that the GPL overrides then fine with me
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe, section 1c is going to be a focus today, I think.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dale Glass|Dale Glass]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|excuse me, is there a call-in number?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe, changes to section 7 made the policy much better, thank you
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I still see the same 1c, "further restrictions" on "developers who distribute TPVs to others". That's specifically against GPLv2 clause 6. very very specifically, there is even a GPLv2 FAQ explaining it.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] [somebody] liability was a concern....
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Jacek Antonelli|Jacek Antonelli]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yes, the new revision of the policy is much better
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: Ron Ghostaltar: got a reply from FSF, I'll foward.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(yes please)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Who is speaking?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Who is "me"?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Avatar Ron Ghostaltar
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Chaley May|Chaley May]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zarutian Morpork|Zarutian Morpork]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Ron Ghostaltar said that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Merov Linden|Merov Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Ron Ghostaltar
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Who was speaking?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: Ron Ghostaltar: basically says TPVP is GPL compliant, since it applies to TOS/connecting.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Boroondas Gupte|Boroondas Gupte]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|8c, too?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: any other points of concern before we focus on 1c?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:11]
| colspan="2"|''LordGregGreg Back has one''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: specific question: is the GPL also valid for developers who write for SL?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|1c and 8c both seem nominally to raise questions
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: my intention is not to find more tweaks to the document, but to collect the concerns you've got already. (??)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|You acknowledge and agree that we may require you to stop using or distributing a Third-Party Viewer for accessing Second Life if we determine that there is a violation. from 8c
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: re GPL-compliance: That is not entirely clear to me: Is it so that where the TPV policy says "the developer must ..." that if the developer does NOT do that then LL can delete their account, but can NOT persue legal against in RL against that developer?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: my cocern is to make sure your concerns have been heard, and where possible, reflected in the doc.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: specific question: is the GPL also valid for developers who write for SL?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: particvularly, if the Imprudence team might reconsider leaving SL support.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Grace McDunnough|Grace McDunnough]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Is anyone from Imprudence here?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Dunno
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: also Radegast, etc, would like to check in.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(in case Joe doesn't read chat, can someone please repeat my question in voice? :()
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: I am reading chat...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: didn't bring an entourage today, so jump in on voice if you want to...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ron Ghostaltar|Ron Ghostaltar]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Grace: I am here and contribute to Imprudence
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Robin Cornelius|Robin Cornelius]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Aleric hows that stream now?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] LGG Back: I was told that (grid proxy??) stuff can't be registered as a TPV?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: QUESTION (that would make me happy about GPL compliance): Is the GPL also valid for developers who write for SL?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: we do consider a proxy as a connection; we assume we won't be approving a bunch of plugins where the proxy itself is not being self-certified...(???)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zarutian Morpork|Zarutian Morpork]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine: such as prim scripts in LSL2
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zarutian Morpork|Zarutian Morpork]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|From 9c "Third-Party Viewers include software for viewing Second Life, any chat clients, utilities, bots, and proxies as well as applications that may not be listed in our Viewer Directory."
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: sec 9 includes proxies....would like to see them built, compliant in their ;usage with the TPV policy...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I dont' think its possible to make such a proxy
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|libomv gridproxy iherently allows you to bypass permissions systems and whatnot
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] LGG Back: was told not allowed to submit proxies. Joe Linden: none of the grid proxy tools have been submitted, AFAIK, just modules or plugins.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: QUESTION (to finish on GPL compliance): Is the GPL also valid for developers who write for SL?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:LordGregGreg Back|LordGregGreg Back]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|right, i had to make some changes :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|great
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: to Morgaine's q, what?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Boroondas Gupte|Boroondas Gupte]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Who develop viewers specifically for the SL grid.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zarutian Morpork|Zarutian Morpork]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Such as LSL scripts or Sim server code or?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I;lkl try, go to a different questiion while I type
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:16]
| colspan="2"|''Zarutian Morpork addresses the last w''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'll repeat question too, cause it seems you missed it :p
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine, are you doing a segue into the 1c discussion?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:17]
| colspan="2"|''Zarutian Morpork to Morgaine''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: of course none of this TPV stuff applies to in-world content at all. Different discussion.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|7c says "By "Third-Party Viewer," we mean any third-party software client on any device that logs into our servers that support Second Life. Third-Party Viewers include software for viewing Second Life, any chat clients, utilities, bots, and proxies as well as applications that may not be listed in our Viewer Directory."
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: the definition of TPV talks about anything that acutally logs in to our service. Software that doesn't connect is not addressed at all by this doc.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Johan Neddings|Johan Neddings]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So, a viewer that only connects to OpenSim for instance is free of the TPV ?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dz Questi|Dz Questi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it still seems unreasonable to take a stand that use of a TPV that just automates what a LSL script can do ( IE copy all the attributes of an object)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dz Questi|Dz Questi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|is a bannable offense
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zarutian Morpork|Zarutian Morpork]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine: are you perhaps asking about infrastructure code such as the sim server code or?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|COMMENT: Joe, a gridproxy inherently can't block violation of the TPV policy. People can modify them as they wish (e.g. grabbing whatever assets they want from the wire).
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|QUESTION: The TPVP being compliant to the GPL, does that means that where the TPVP says "the developer must..." that if he does NOT do that, then you will not take legal action (in RL) against the developer, but merely terminate the services for that developer (as user)?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe, to respond to your question from before, no I don't see any further issues that would prevent Radegast from being developed and registered in the directory
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: Johan, that's exactly right, there's zero impact on any viewer connecting to Opensim
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Johan Neddings|Johan Neddings]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Ok :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|a program that doesn't log in, but talks to scripts in sl is considered a TPV
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: Latif, that's great news, fantastic
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so just the existence of an openended gridproxy lib shouldn't be seen as a violation, right?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i'll be submitting my viewer to the directory pretty soon too
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: that's correct, an open-end grid proxy is not a violation...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: some uses are benign, some less so; we don't preclude their use
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(Morgaine must be writing a treatise) ;)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|uh oh
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ilana Debevec|Ilana Debevec]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|working on one Joe, it's a long one
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:robertltux McCallen|robertltux McCallen]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|a ripping proxy would be right out of course
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zarutian Morpork|Zarutian Morpork]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Rex: you mean like via remote events?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: (rephrasing): when you release code under a GPLv2 license, is that GPLv2 license available to all developers and distributors of your code and derived code, or is your GPLv2 license *NOT* a license available to developers/distributors of viewers specifically for SL? (If your license applies to SL TPV devs too, then any term of the TPV that is non-compliant would be overridden by the GPL term.)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Boroondas Gupte|Boroondas Gupte]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|what if it does?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i mean using the mini-lsl server
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Techwolf: you can't take away our right to distrubte under the GPL. Joe: if no connecting occurs to SL, then right.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|You didn't answer mine, I think... I'll try a third time:
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|QUESTION: The TPVP being compliant to the GPL, does that means that where the TPVP says "the developer must..." that if he does NOT do that, then you will not take legal action (in RL) against the developer, but merely terminate the services for that developer (as user)?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: the point of 8c is to indicate that if a TPV is noncompliant, then your permission to access SL with that viewer terminates, regardless of whether technical measures are used...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: ... and distribution for use in SL must be stopped. these are connection conditions.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ilana Debevec|Ilana Debevec]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe, speaking as a 'customer' not a 'devloper', but as a 'content creator'.. I think that some more thought MUST be put into the 'export rules'... never mind that things my partner and I make can't be exported by either of us with this new policy, never mind that things I build with any of my alts can't be exported by my. But as a content creator, I've bought several 'full perm' items for our builds.. with the explicit license to export to other grids.. now I can't. I DO understand the need for a control on this, but a blanket 'ex-post facto' restriction is.. well... rather brutal... I would realy, really, really suggest that that be held back until you can add a 'export flag' to the object/prim properties... the creator says the object can or cannot be exported
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ok, thanks!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(having 1 minute voice lag )
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: you don't state it is a condition of CONNECTION. You state it is a condition on DISTRIBUTION.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:LordGregGreg Back|LordGregGreg Back]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|check texture creators via sanning inventory
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dale Glass|Dale Glass]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|QUESTION: Joe, I would like to know, can the prohibitions on exporting content be ignored with permission from the copyright holder? Eg, it's CC-SA licensed, it's my own content but on another account, the copyright holder expressly gives me permission to do it? And, as a creator, what can I do to authorize an user to export my content that would ensure LL doesn't accidentally ban them?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So then, in the case that a viewer violates TPV, you are no longer allowed to distribute it FOR THE PURPOSE of connecting to SL,. You m ight still be able to distribute and say this is violation but here's the code?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Eddy: how can we make a "save your appearance" feature that is TPVP compliant?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I have the same problem as Ilana, just to throw in my ++ with that. :<
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Eddy: permissions checks...?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: the primary viewer does that as well, so no checks must be done to _cache_.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|there is case law on transient assets
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Eddy: what about saving to XML for export? that's what I meant.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Llana ++ from me too
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Eddy, that hasn't worked in quite a while :P pretty bit rotten
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: if it's equivalent of an export, then you need to do those per45missions checks.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the SLT viewer has a "appearance to xml" feature as well
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Lance: if the saved data includes textures, needs perm checks, but what about just saving a mapping? No checks, rihgt?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|As a content creator I should be able to give permission for my full permissions creations to be exported to other grids.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Boroondas Gupte|Boroondas Gupte]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|+Fleep
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Educators create many objects they FULLY INTEND to be exportable.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dale Glass|Dale Glass]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|+Fleep
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zarutian Morpork|Zarutian Morpork]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Fractured ModularSystems: yes?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: I think you're right, we don't want to restrict performance enhancements... export with intention of importing elsewhere or even from a 2nd SL account, needs to do perm checks.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|flee. i believe u should be able to give and take those perms
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|fleep*
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Frac (inaudible)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Rex > but they are forbidding that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fractured ModularSystems|Fractured ModularSystems]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|:<
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|They are forbidding the export of anyuthing that you are not the creator of
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Unless I'm reading that incorrectly?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:robertltux McCallen|robertltux McCallen]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|personally until the backend stuff is fixed i could host a site of exports by owners for CC tpye use
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: (SHORTER REPHRASE): when you grant your GPL license to developres, do you grant that license to ALL developers and distributors or only to GPL devs who do NOT write for SL?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|See section 2b
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha's issue queue: (1) how can people save builds created by two partner avatars under the TPV policy? (2) fixing section 1c.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thank you Joe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: it's still my position that the NO WARRANTY clauses are not in conflict with the plicy as written.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Jacek Antonelli|Jacek Antonelli]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|CONCERN: I'm not sure if this is a "wider concern", but I'd like to ask about 2B (the creator check on export) -- I would prefer it were phrased in terms of copyright, not a technical detail (creator name in the system).
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|latha: THAT.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zarutian Morpork|Zarutian Morpork]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine: ya mean if SL is dual lincensing?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe has just stated that GPL applies to *ALL* developers, even if for SL. Therefore TPV clauses that conflict with GPL are null and void.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: read-back of q, export rules, multiple avatars do a build...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: it's iimportant to us to create these sorts of limits around the broader export of content, including full perms...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|of course we have the right to export everything we create. ll can't give us that right
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|we already have it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|What? So all future use of SL for content creators who wish to create exportable content is governed by people who are no logner here??
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: ...the IP associated with full perms items restricts us from assuming intent of old full perms items...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That's nuts.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ilana Debevec|Ilana Debevec]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|no Joe, no, my partner and I build together... so prims are from BOTH of us... and read again... I have purchased full perm items with SPECIFIC PERMISSION TO EXPORT... you have made those purchased worthless...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: ...unless/until we have a specific licensing model in place, completely separately of the perms system...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: ...we're really limited by in world perms....
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: ...I've only read half the question...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(I don't think that's what Joe is saying, Fleep, he's saying Linden can't change full perm implicitly)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zarutian Morpork|Zarutian Morpork]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Fleep: intresting question
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If I create something with explicit licensing that says YOU CAN EXPORT, then it looks to me that 2b is forbidding that?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Notecards
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|We all use notecards
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: we have no way to manifest a license for export, am not aware even of an ad hoc mechanism.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Niotecards and links to websites
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|:(
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:robertltux McCallen|robertltux McCallen]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Fleep the current back end can't support the needed flags
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: the best way to deal with this as a creator is to host your content OUTSIDE of the SL access system.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That's sad.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Boroondas Gupte|Boroondas Gupte]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That's kinda silly, isn't it?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If I had an object that was part my content and part someone else's, should I be able to export the part that I created, or should a viewer prevent any export since it was made up of content from multiple creators?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: as a creator, you can export the stuff you have crated.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fractured ModularSystems|Fractured ModularSystems]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It seems to me the co-op build issue could be elegantly solved by saying that if you have the mod rights of a creator, you can export full permission prims they created
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Thickbrick Sleaford|Thickbrick Sleaford]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|You mean you're not aware of *mechanized enforcment* of licensing.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|what about PARTNERS, Joe. Two people do a build in SL.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe, the question raised is collaborative building
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Uni Ninetails|Uni Ninetails]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Textures R Us goes web based then... :s
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I like Fractured's idea there.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|fractured: good idea
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: LL can't allow broader distribution of content contrary to creator's intention.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:robertltux McCallen|robertltux McCallen]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|if there is interest i can put up a site to host exports
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ilana Debevec|Ilana Debevec]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Fractured... perfect solution... make it so :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: Lots of poitns raised around megaprims, microprims, collab builds -- I understand all this.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fractured ModularSystems|Fractured ModularSystems]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the logic is since the system treats actions done via mod rights like actions done by the user, you are expoirting "via proxy" similar to when you modify their item
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe, would you support adding explicit "exportable" flag?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zarutian Morpork|Zarutian Morpork]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Dahlia: I think that your content up to the parts created by others might who havent made it all-perm is exportable
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: but quite frankly, the maintenance of the value of IP is really what makes SL work well for a wide variety of stakeholders.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: should a TPV clause be found to be non-compliant with the GPL, would we be in our rights to consider that TPV clause void, because of your clear statement that you desire full GPL compliance for *ALL* developers and distributors?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: To make a different assumption, now, about prior content, is outside of the realm...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|GOING FORWARD, Joe, not RETROACTIVELY
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dale Glass|Dale Glass]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|CONCERN: Joe: Having things outside SL isn't very useful. I'd like to send some sort of signal that LL will hear, so that somebody who tries to export my content that I'm fine with being exported doesn't get banned. It would not look good for me if I promised somebody "Yes, you can export this", and then they got banned for exporting it. So I'd like LL to provide some mechanism to indicate that yes, I'm fine with it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Can you comment on Frac's idea too, if there is time? :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: there's no querstion we need a set of metra tags for a variety of perms.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|good to hear
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ilana Debevec|Ilana Debevec]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe you are acting retroactivly, and you, by your own admission, are now making a decision for them.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: Frac's idea I did not read... am behind...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Imho, nothing with less than 128 bits of entropy should be subject to IP rules :/... Clearly you can't rez a cube, resize it to 1.23 x 2.34 x 3.45 and claim copyright on it.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kadah Coba|Kadah Coba]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Has anything been said about 8(d)? (was late)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Johan Neddings|Johan Neddings]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The Q from Jacek
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|1c
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|1c
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:LordGregGreg Back|LordGregGreg Back]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[12:30] Fractured ModularSystems: It seems to me the co-op build issue could be elegantly solved by saying that if you have the mod rights of a creator, you can export full permission prims they created
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ilana Debevec|Ilana Debevec]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[12:30] Fractured ModularSystems: It seems to me the co-op build issue could be elegantly solved by saying that if you have the mod rights of a creator, you can export full permission prims they created
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|are new permission flags something that LLT is prioritizing?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ilana Debevec|Ilana Debevec]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yeah, what he said :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: other issues? Otherwise we'
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Boroondas Gupte|Boroondas Gupte]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Until we get the flag, why does a viewer have to impose restricions that the right owner(s) might not even want? Wouldn't it be better to just restrict usage of such export features rather than their implementation?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|l [Transcript] Joe Linden: otherwise we'll adjourn soon. yes, theres something being worked on now...(meaning???)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|1c
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|1c
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: should a TPV clause be found to be non-compliant with the GPL, would we be in our rights to consider that TPV clause void, because of your clear statement that you desire full GPL compliance for *ALL* developers and distributors?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Johan Neddings|Johan Neddings]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Jacek Antonelli: CONCERN: I'm not sure if this is a "wider concern", but I'd like to ask about 2B (the creator check on export) -- I would prefer it were phrased in terms of copyright, not a technical detail (creator name in the system).
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Any buy-in on Proposal Latha-1: in the preamble to 1c, after "If you are a Developer who distributes Third-Party Viewers to others, " add "and you wish to support compliant usage of your viewer to connect to SL,"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:34]
| colspan="2"|''Zarutian Morpork must go for now. Cya all''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: Morgaine, you probably need to hire a lawyer.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: can someone verbally descirbe the 1c issue?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(I hear someone laughing in the background with Joe, is that Linden Lab's lawyer? :))
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|1c, anyone?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ilana Debevec|Ilana Debevec]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe, please address Fractured's point.. it would solve co-op build issues...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: 1c deals with requirements of viewers specifically posted for being able to connect to SL.... (((Not true --L.)))
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:LordGregGreg Back|LordGregGreg Back]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[12:30] Fractured ModularSystems: It seems to me the co-op build issue could be elegantly solved by saying that if you have the mod rights of a creator, you can export full permission prims they created
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i was thinking that when joe talks about TPV it would have been a goood idea to have a lawyer present
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:robertltux McCallen|robertltux McCallen]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yeah i need a snack
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the diff between TestClient and the SL viewer would be... significant :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|LOl
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: TPV developers are not going to hire lawyers, realistically, so we're trying to ascertain whether we can really rely on the GPL. It's quite simple. "I'm a TPV developers under GPL, can I rely on the GPL's exact terms and freedoms?"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Is there any consensus that in TPV 1C ... all instances of "installing" and "installation" just need to be changed to "connecting" and "connection" ... "to Linden Lab"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ilana Debevec|Ilana Debevec]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[12:30] Fractured ModularSystems: It seems to me the co-op build issue could be elegantly solved by saying that if you have the mod rights of a creator, you can export full permission prims they created
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|How is 1c not a restriction on GPL? Only if it's rephrased to refer to CONNECTING.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|oh that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fractured ModularSystems|Fractured ModularSystems]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the idea being that your acting as them through mod rights generally
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|guess so
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Excellent idea, since you can do everything with their content anyway
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: digging out Fractured's questions...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Who is talking?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Please identify
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Ron Ghostaltar
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:LordGregGreg Back|LordGregGreg Back]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Ron i think
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|just forward it to opensoure-dev
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Ron Ghostaltar: the FSF folks say no conflict. I'll share the email.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Johan Neddings|Johan Neddings]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Ron Ghostaltar has talked just now
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ron Ghostaltar|Ron Ghostaltar]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Its me Morgaine
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Please forward to opensource-dev
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Govern Overland|Govern Overland]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|1C seems fine to me. but I see the point... Installing should be replaced with connecting to LL services.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|problem is, some prims were create at a time when export wasn't available
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Fractured: That would a good thing (you mean having Build Rights). But then again, getting someones build rights is usually not the same as getting their copy rights :/
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|created*
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Boroondas Gupte|Boroondas Gupte]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|What if they made these permissions explicit (e.g. in notecards)?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:LordGregGreg Back|LordGregGreg Back]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yes.. rapidly.. please..
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: we'll err on the side of "most restrictive use" of existing SL content, with the caveat that we need to rapidly add more metadata tags.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ron Ghostaltar|Ron Ghostaltar]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The email was forwarded to the OpenSource-Dev list
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Johan Neddings|Johan Neddings]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Possiblity through email ?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Boroondas Gupte|Boroondas Gupte]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I means for human-readable.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: notecards are spoofable, probably that's not a great approach...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Johan Neddings|Johan Neddings]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|You send in a message with the name of the user
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Johan Neddings|Johan Neddings]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and that's being kept
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Jacek Antonelli|Jacek Antonelli]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|What if you have a signed legal agreement with the creator, giving you a license to export? 2B would still restrict it. :\
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: we'll discuss more on content tagging soon; SL Enterprise it's an issue...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|In RL, we use simple plain license documents, such as a GPL license file. A notecard accompanying an object expressing the creator's intentions is fine.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: e.g. export for use behind a firewall. important to us.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it sounds like for now.. building your content on a separate grid and importing it to SL would steer clear of any murky issues
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: true, Morgaine, if it weren't so spoofable....
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Eddy, yeah
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ilana Debevec|Ilana Debevec]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe, Fractured point is about as an explicit as you can get,if someone gives me mod perms I can copy, resize, tweak, twist and whatever...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ok
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Iliana, delete too
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: correct, John, building content externally and importing it, or having creators export content for collaborative use & import & external use, is a short term solution.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Thickbrick Sleaford|Thickbrick Sleaford]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|A point Linden should consider when they aim for web2.0-ness-buzzword-compliance: most succeful web 2.0 services allow people to export their content.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|most content is built externally... except vector data itself
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:42]
| colspan="2"|''Boroondas Gupte thought the point of SL (and the SL grid) *was* collaboration''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If you've already built a great build with a partner, you're screwed, sorry. :-(
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"new restrictions on export"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ilana Debevec|Ilana Debevec]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|not talking about people no longer in world,talkming about collaborative builds, active things
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|A file containing a GPL license is totally spoofable, yet it still expresses the creator's intentions perfectly. If a creator expresses such an open license for her content, her rights should be respected.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kadah Coba|Kadah Coba]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|8d? There was conflict over this clause before.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|joe: that means the original issues have been resolved :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|:D
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Johan Neddings|Johan Neddings]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[QUESTION] When will the changes be in effect ?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Boroondas Gupte|Boroondas Gupte]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yay for the changes!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|seriously though, if you have permission from all makeers of a build and contrive your own way of exporiting it, LL can't coplain if you don't tell them and no-one complains to them
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: we seem to have wandered off into IP issues. Any other major issues?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(had a work call just got back, will have to read the transcript)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: will provide feedback in email if I spot somethign I missed.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|NOTE: it is possible to RE-create an object ENTIRELY in-world (with LSL scripts) if it is full perm, with you as creator... So, I don't see this TPVp demand to be a large problem *wink wink*
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Ron Ghostaltar: hypothetically, regarding team builds, would a viewer that allowed an option to export your and your friend's content, still be in compliance?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: No, of cours enot, not if the user is in charge.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: what we'd support is adding metadata.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:robertltux McCallen|robertltux McCallen]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Johan i think the changes are in effect NOWish (at least not later than the original 04/30)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:IFellThroughA Trapdoor|IFellThroughA Trapdoor]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|why not have a 'joint creator' option?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: there's not a short run model acceptable to us.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Eddy, we need to build openmetaverse sandbox grid for people to build stuff on :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|what meta-data?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Gosh so we have the next week or so to pull out all the stuff created with full perms sculpties and whatnot. :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Thickbrick Sleaford|Thickbrick Sleaford]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|non-automatically enforced licensing works very well for full perm textures today.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:robertltux McCallen|robertltux McCallen]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Rex like embedding a CC type license key
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: I could certainly imagine a viewer that messages a creator, if there's a collaborative group, and provide some way fo rthe actual craeator of the content to do the export.....
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|not everybody like cc
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|would LSL based export methods be affected by the TPVP?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Techwolf: sounds like you want people to cheat.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: let's be real clear, it's not about directory listing. it's for all viewers that connect; must abide by creator check.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Like I said, if you do it and no-one complains because they are already involved, LL won't be in the business of tracking down builders that do their own thing. THey just want teeth to handle official complaints
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Dahlia, LSL script is not a TPV
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: directory is orthogonal to the policy; it's a marketing tool.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fractured ModularSystems|Fractured ModularSystems]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the line blurs when you bridge them
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: am not encouraging continued use of viewers that don't do creator checks.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: that's the most significant change some teams have ahd to make.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: Because Opensim is backwards compatible with SL, common viewers are used for both. Viewers may have wider freedoms in Opensim than they have in SL. I hope you are not suggesting that restrictions have to be HARDWIRED into any viewer that connects to SL.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif: full perm objects can be exported with a legal prim + script in-world, dumping to channel 0... I guess that makes it illegal to copy&paste that output to your harddisk then?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it's easy enough to check on which grid you are on
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ilana Debevec|Ilana Debevec]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yeah, I paid good money for that :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|morgaine, no problem with that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Johan Neddings|Johan Neddings]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[QUESTION] When will the changes be in effect ?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|what latif said. its like, 3-4 lines in llstartup.cpp
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Jacek Antonelli|Jacek Antonelli]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Aleric techically it would be if your intent is to take it off SL without the creator's permission
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ilana Debevec|Ilana Debevec]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and the 'Inventory Backup' program being sold, touted as 'based on copybot' and 'submitted to LL for approval'
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I saw only the 'I' too. And I would vrey much like to examine Jacek's worries, they were very well considered.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Jacek Antonelli|Jacek Antonelli]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think the meetings have accomplished addressing the wider concerns
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: Because Opensim is backwards compatible with SL, common viewers are used for both. Viewers may have wider freedoms in Opensim than they have in SL. I hope you are not suggesting that restrictions have to be HARDWIRED into any viewer that connects to SL.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Saijanai: The whole "creator" tag is so technicaly flawed that it is impossible to base anything on it... What one would need is a complete revision history of every asset.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Techwolf: it's just technical details from here on.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: no comment?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: morgaine, yes, correct.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and again, as long as no-one complains, LL isn't going to go after someone who is using their own custom viewer to grab collaborative builds. And if you get permission from everyone involved, no-one is going to complain. Caveat emptor and all that of course
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Jacek Antonelli|Jacek Antonelli]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The inflexibility of the creator check is a bit annoying, but minor.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe is stating that viewers for SL cannot be used for interop.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|you can easily differenciate that in code
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|We were exporting objects created on our campus to a local opensim, now I can't do that even if my student employees sell me their objects. This is totally unworkable from my perspective.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: I think you've made a statement that's factual.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: No, not stating that.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: be clear then. No politics
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But that's neither here nor there I suppose for developers.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:51]
| colspan="2"|''Jacek Antonelli pokes Morgaine. Stop stirring up drama''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|jacek: have a beer for that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: lots of ways, much room for innovation, way beyond the limited scope of the TPV
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i see no issue with coding if (!connected_to_sl) ...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Nod sorry Joe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: makes no sense to focus on IP issues
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I know that's not the issue here, apologies.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: when we're talking about a wider range of interop issues.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|latif: exactly
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: viewers are either HARDWIRED to SL requirements, or they are adaptive to any world they connect. Is only HARDWIRED allowed?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|slightly off-topic: does anyone know if you can remove the "cancellation pending" through the website or do i have to call support?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Q for Joe: must a viewer with extra opensim features forbid connecting to SL?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: thanks for bearing with me.....
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|jacek. i think everybody has the right to ask their question(s) without others insinuating the want to create drama
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It looks like it Morgaine
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:robertltux McCallen|robertltux McCallen]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe look at it this way if the IP stuff is the only complaint then the job is basically done
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Jacek Antonelli|Jacek Antonelli]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks very much Joe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Johan Neddings|Johan Neddings]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Eddy, try Live Chat :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Eddy, you can but it'll cost you $10 USD :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Thickbrick Sleaford|Thickbrick Sleaford]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks Joe for listening and fixing the problems!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe is refusing to say that the TPV prevents interop.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|they want*
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: I know it has been a rocky road, appreciate your patience, we'll continue to be listening.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|latif: that's fine, what do i do?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Boroondas Gupte|Boroondas Gupte]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|\o/
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: as an aside, we'd like to copntinue to get better at interacting with the dev community.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But if TPV requires HARDWIRING in the SL restrictions, then a common viewer cannot be used for interop.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Vaalith ModularSystems|Vaalith ModularSystems]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine, do an if check.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|morgaine: that's what if statements were invented for
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: e.g. we're putting effort into VWRAP and stuff, even though we've got more than enough work to do internally.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well it can, Morgaine, so long as the viewer doesn't have extra features for other grids. ;)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|morgaine, what is the problem with wrapping the restrictions inside an if() clause?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: This TPV stuff was way overdue
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Eddy: "if" is not hardwiring. I would be happy if Joe saied "Conditional is OK"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: users have been at risk due to its lack.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|morgaine, you actually have a point there now
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: ideally, we'd have APIs that precluded rogue clients, but that's not where we're at.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: we're refactoring what we can...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fractured ModularSystems|Fractured ModularSystems]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|its software, there is no hardwire
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|MOrgaine: the whole import/export, IP and license stuff have to be redesigned for VWRAP anyway... it's something for the far future to be dealt with
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: some of the poieces won't happen for a while...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Lance: coming up over and over in chat: opensim vs SL, disabling features when connecting to SL is allowed?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Jacek Antonelli|Jacek Antonelli]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|\o/
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: short answer is yes.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Good q
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|\o/
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Nicely asked, Lance
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|great
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well Said
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Grace McDunnough|Grace McDunnough]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well said
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Jacek Antonelli|Jacek Antonelli]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Let's get ice cream
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Excellent
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Govern Overland|Govern Overland]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Disabled.. or completely non-existant in the code??
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|laugh Jacek
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe has just stated that CONDITIONAL is OK.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"greyed out"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Ice cream? chololate chip please :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ok it's definitely ice cream time
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yay.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Mint Chocolate Chip here
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|So not hardwired.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Jacek Antonelli|Jacek Antonelli]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks for the meetings, Joe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Nyx Linden|Nyx Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|+1 for ice cream :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Grace McDunnough|Grace McDunnough]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thank you joe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks Joe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|thanks joe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|thank you Joe :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|thanks joe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Joe Linden: Ok, I'm gonna run, seeya
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Tasia Tonic|Tasia Tonic]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|thanks joe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Discrete ModularSystems|Discrete ModularSystems]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks Joe!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Chaley May|Chaley May]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|bye
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Boroondas Gupte|Boroondas Gupte]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|thanks!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kadah Coba|Kadah Coba]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks joe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Johan Neddings|Johan Neddings]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|thanks Joe :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|have a good one
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Skills ModularSystems|Skills ModularSystems]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|seeya
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|You think they pay Joe hazard pay for these?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|;)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so the only thing somebody has to do is to comment out the if statement:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks Joe. We got there in the end :-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Neurocam ModularSystems|Neurocam ModularSystems]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|thanks
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:dax Ellisson|dax Ellisson]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|thanks joe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|they should
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|definitely
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Discrete ModularSystems|Discrete ModularSystems]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Weeeee!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks Rob
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|er Ron
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Discrete ModularSystems|Discrete ModularSystems]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|To the what?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks Ron
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:56]
| colspan="2"|''Ceawlin Steamweaver pinches Phox. :3''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|rex: there are a million ways for someone to subvert good intentions... the point is as long as we start with good intentions we won't be liable for other people's bad intentions
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:57]
| colspan="2"|''Thickbrick Sleaford hums "Hey Joe, where are you going with the icecream scoop in your hand?"''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Jacek Antonelli|Jacek Antonelli]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Take care, all
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Grace McDunnough|Grace McDunnough]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That was remakably productive
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Discrete ModularSystems|Discrete ModularSystems]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Oh, sorry, my sound must have clipped. ;p
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Nyx Linden|Nyx Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|tc all those that r leaving
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] Ron Ghostaltar: i've forwarded the FSF email to opensource-dev.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Phox ModularSystems|Phox ModularSystems]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|What happens if I put in a bagel Ceawlin?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[Transcript] voice transcript ends here.
|}

Viewer 2 Microsoft Windows Builds

2010-04-18T22:18:34Z

Latha Serevi:

{{multi-lang}}
{{CompileNav}}

THESE INSTRUCTIONS ARE NOT YET COMPLETE OR DEBUGGED as of 18 April 2010.

When finished, we hope this page will constitute a complete recipe for compiling viewer 2 from source on a Windows machine.

Philosophy: to keep it brief, this page should only include steps we KNOW ARE NEEDED, not random hints. Extra details or open issues can go on the talk page.

Following this recipe will probably take 6 to 12 hours of wall-clock time, and 2 to 6 hours of your time, if you're starting from a fresh Windows XP/Vista/7 system.

== Establish your programming environment ==
This is needed for compiling any viewer based on the LL open source code, but only needs to be done once.

* Obtain Visual Studio (2005, 2008, 2010) (Express is OK)
** [http://www.microsoft.com/express/download/ Click here to download Visual C++ Express - current version is VS2010]
** Note: LL still uses VS2005 internally, which uses the VC80 libraries. VS2008 and VS2010 ((confirm?)) use the VC90 libraries. We'll assume VC90 here.

* Install Microsoft Platform & DirectX SDKs
** Download and install [http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=F26B1AA4-741A-433A-9BE5-FA919850BDBF&displaylang=en Windows SDK for Windows Server 2008 and .NET Framework 3.5]
** Download and install [http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=ea4894b5-e98d-44f6-842d-e32147237638&DisplayLang=en DirectX SDK (August 2008)]

* Install other development tools
** '''CMake''' ([http://www.cmake.org/HTML/Download.html download CMake])
*** must be version 2.6.2 or higher
** '''Cygwin''' ([http://www.cygwin.com/ download Cygwin])
*** When you run the cygwin setup utility make sure you have selected to install '''patchutils''', '''flex''', and '''bison''' (all located under "devel") which are not part of the default install.
** '''Python''' (download either [http://www.python.org/download/ Python.org Standard Python] or [http://www.activestate.com/Products/ActivePython/?mp=1 ActivePython]

== Download and compile libraries that must be manually added to each LL source release ==

It is probably a good idea to build an empty directory tree for the files below and first copy the files there and once completed, copy the whole tree to the actual source folder. Then, if you obtain a new batch of source code, you can save some steps.

rem OLIBS.CMD to build a folder tree for 3rd party libraries and includes
md olibs
md olibs\linden\
md olibs\linden\libraries
md olibs\linden\libraries\include
md olibs\linden\libraries\i686-win32
md olibs\linden\libraries\i686-win32\lib\release
md olibs\linden\libraries\i686-win32\lib\debug
md olibs\linden\libraries\i686-win32\include
md olibs\linden\libraries\i686-win32\include\GL
md olibs\linden\libraries\i686-win32\include\quicktime
md olibs\linden\indra
md olibs\linden\indra\newview

=== Quicktime ===

* Download & install the [http://connect.apple.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/MemberSite.woa/203/wa/getSoftware?fileID=20525&code=y&source=x&wosid=4h16WcyMtVfd2P1EffGafkoxFcr Quicktime SDK for Windows]
* copy "QuicktimeSDK\Libraries\QTMLClient.lib" to "linden\libraries\i686-win32\lib\release" and to "linden\libraries\i686-win32\lib\debug"
* Copy the contents of "QuicktimeSDK\CIncludes" into "linden\libraries\i686-win32\include\quicktime".

=== Fmod ===
* Download & extract [http://www.fmod.org/files/fmod3/fmodapi375win.zip FMOD3.75 API for Windows]. (later versions, like FMOD Ex, are incompatible).
* Copy "fmodapi375win\api\inc\fmod.h" to "linden\libraries\include"
* Copy "fmodapi375win\api\inc\fmod_errors.h" to "linden\libraries\include"
* Copy "fmodapi375win\api\inc\fmoddyn.h" to "linden\libraries\include"
* Copy "fmodapi375win\api\lib\fmodvc.lib" to "linden\libraries\i686-win32\lib\release" and to "linden\libraries\i686-win32\lib\debug"
* Copy "fmodapi375win\api\fmod.dll" to "linden\indra\newview"

=== Boost ===

* Grab the files that Robin Cornelius has precompiled at
http://www.byteme.org.uk/downloads/boost_1_39_VC90_no_scl_shared_crt_static_link.zip
* or alternatively follow the instructions from the 25/Feb/10 and 15/Apr/10 entries of http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-9541

((TBD: verify, simplify, fix))

=== cares ===
TBD

== Set up your source code tree ==

LL distributes the source code in three parts: the source package, the artwork package, and the library package. You should choose whether to use a snapshot or SVN checkout. You'll need art and libraries from a snapshot if you use the SVN method.

* Unzip or checkout your source tree into a directory that has as short full pathname as possible, with NO SPACES in it, to avoid trouble in the build scripts.

* Example: ((specific snapshot example TBD; SVN example also ))

* Copy your "olibs" from above into the source tree.

== Fix known problems with the source code tree ==

TBD - edits to scripts that must be made for windows VC90 builds to succeed?

== Initial build steps using develop.py and CMake ==

You may notice that there's no Visual Studio project file as part of the distributed source tree. That's because it is GENERATED in this step using command-line tools. Only after this step can you begin using the IDE.

* open a Command Prompt window

* Run develop.py --
** From the command line, '''cd into the indra subdirectory'''
** Run <code>"develop.py -G VC90"</code> or <code>"python develop.py -G VC90"</code>
** The <code>develop.py</code> script will create and populate a build directory for you. It should be in <code>'build-vc90'</code>

((TBD: how to tell if you succeeded))

== Compile using the IDE ==

* Run Visual Studio.
* Use "File -> Open -> Project/Solution", navigate to linden/indra/build-VC90/Viewer.vcproj, and open it.
** if you can't find this file, perhaps your previous run of develop.py failed.
* Project ALL_BUILD and configuration RelWithDebugInfo should be selected, and the working directory for ALL_BUILD should be "linden\indra\newview".
* Build -> Build Solution (F7)

== Iteratively fix things until the compile succeeds ==

((TBD - add any fixup steps here. e.g. does fmod375.dll need to be moved into RelWithDbgInfo at this step?))

* report your experiences, if useful, on the talk page, https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Talk:Viewer_2_Microsoft_Windows_Builds
* ask for help on the SL "Snowglobe" group or the opensource-dev mailing list.

== References ==

These instructions are condensed from about a dozen previous pages of info:
*https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Microsoft_Windows_Builds
*https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Compiling_the_Viewer_%28MSVS2008%29
*https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Jodiah_Jensen#UPDATING_BOOST_LIBRARIES_TO_WORK_WITH_VS2008
** now partially incorrect
*http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-9541

((add other references here))

[[Category:Compiling Viewer]]

Viewer 2 Microsoft Windows Builds

2010-04-18T22:11:25Z

Latha Serevi:

{{multi-lang}}
{{CompileNav}}

THESE INSTRUCTIONS ARE NOT YET COMPLETE OR DEBUGGED as of 18 April 2010.

When finished, we hope this page will constitute a complete recipe for compiling viewer 2 from source on a Windows machine.

Philosophy: to keep it brief, this page should only include steps we KNOW ARE NEEDED, not random hints. Extra details or open issues can go on the talk page.

Following this recipe will probably take 6 to 12 hours of wall-clock time, and 2 to 6 hours of your time, if you're starting from a fresh Windows XP/Vista/7 system.

== Establish your programming environment ==
This is needed for compiling any viewer based on the LL open source code, but only needs to be done once.

* Obtain Visual Studio (2005, 2008, 2010) (Express is OK)
** [http://www.microsoft.com/express/download/ Click here to download Visual C++ Express - current version is VS2010]
** Note: LL still uses VS2005 internally, which uses the VC80 libraries. VS2008 and VS2010 ((confirm?)) use the VC90 libraries. We'll assume VC90 here.

* Install Microsoft Platform & DirectX SDKs
** Download and install [http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=F26B1AA4-741A-433A-9BE5-FA919850BDBF&displaylang=en Windows SDK for Windows Server 2008 and .NET Framework 3.5]
** Download and install [http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=ea4894b5-e98d-44f6-842d-e32147237638&DisplayLang=en DirectX SDK (August 2008)]

* Install other development tools
** '''CMake''' ([http://www.cmake.org/HTML/Download.html download CMake])
*** must be version 2.6.2 or higher
** '''Cygwin''' ([http://www.cygwin.com/ download Cygwin])
*** When you run the cygwin setup utility make sure you have selected to install '''patchutils''', '''flex''', and '''bison''' (all located under "devel") which are not part of the default install.
** '''Python''' (download either [http://www.python.org/download/ Python.org Standard Python] or [http://www.activestate.com/Products/ActivePython/?mp=1 ActivePython]

== Download and compile libraries that must be manually added to each LL source release ==

It is probably a good idea to build an empty directory tree for the files below and first copy the files there and once completed, copy the whole tree to the actual source folder. Then, if you obtain a new batch of source code, you can save some steps.

rem OLIBS.CMD to build a folder tree for 3rd party libraries and includes
md olibs
md olibs\linden\
md olibs\linden\libraries
md olibs\linden\libraries\include
md olibs\linden\libraries\i686-win32
md olibs\linden\libraries\i686-win32\lib\release
md olibs\linden\libraries\i686-win32\lib\debug
md olibs\linden\libraries\i686-win32\include
md olibs\linden\libraries\i686-win32\include\GL
md olibs\linden\libraries\i686-win32\include\quicktime
md olibs\linden\indra
md olibs\linden\indra\newview

=== Quicktime ===

* Download & install the [http://connect.apple.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/MemberSite.woa/203/wa/getSoftware?fileID=20525&code=y&source=x&wosid=4h16WcyMtVfd2P1EffGafkoxFcr Quicktime SDK for Windows]
* copy "QuicktimeSDK\Libraries\QTMLClient.lib" to "linden\libraries\i686-win32\lib\release" and to "linden\libraries\i686-win32\lib\debug"
* Copy the contents of "QuicktimeSDK\CIncludes" into "linden\libraries\i686-win32\include\quicktime".

=== Fmod ===
* Download & extract [http://www.fmod.org/files/fmod3/fmodapi375win.zip FMOD3.75 API for Windows]. (later versions, like FMOD Ex, are incompatible).
* Copy "fmodapi375win\api\inc\fmod.h" to "linden\libraries\include"
* Copy "fmodapi375win\api\inc\fmod_errors.h" to "linden\libraries\include"
* Copy "fmodapi375win\api\inc\fmoddyn.h" to "linden\libraries\include"
* Copy "fmodapi375win\api\lib\fmodvc.lib" to "linden\libraries\i686-win32\lib\release" and to "linden\libraries\i686-win32\lib\debug"
* Copy "fmodapi375win\api\fmod.dll" to "linden\indra\newview"

=== Boost ===

* Grab the files that Robin Cornelius has precompiled at
http://www.byteme.org.uk/downloads/boost_1_39_VC90_no_scl_shared_crt_static_link.zip
* or alternatively follow the instructions from the 25/Feb/10 and 15/Apr/10 entries of http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-9541

((TBD: verify, simplify, fix))

=== cares ===
TBD

== Set up your source code tree ==

LL distributes the source code in three parts: the source package, the artwork package, and the library package. You should choose whether to use a snapshot or SVN checkout. You'll need art and libraries from a snapshot if you use the SVN method.

* Unzip or checkout your source tree into a directory that has as short full pathname as possible, with NO SPACES in it, to avoid trouble in the build scripts.

* Example: ((specific snapshot example TBD; SVN example also ))

* Copy your "olibs" from above into the source tree.

== Fix known problems with the source code tree ==

TBD - edits to scripts that must be made for windows VC90 builds to succeed?

== Initial build steps using develop.py and CMake ==

You may notice that there's no Visual Studio project file as part of the distributed source tree. That's because it is GENERATED in this step using command-line tools. Only after this step can you begin using the IDE.

* open a Command Prompt window

* Run develop.py --
** From the command line, '''cd into the indra subdirectory'''
** Run <code>"develop.py -G VC90"</code> or <code>"python develop.py -G VC90"</code>
** The <code>develop.py</code> script will create and populate a build directory for you. It should be in <code>'build-vc90'</code>

((TBD: how to tell if you succeeded))

== Compile using the IDE ==

* Run Visual Studio.
* Use "File -> Open -> Project/Solution", navigate to linden/indra/build-VC90/Viewer.vcproj, and open it.
** if you can't find this file, perhaps your previous run of develop.py failed.
* Project ALL_BUILD and configuration RelWithDebugInfo should be selected, and the working directory for ALL_BUILD should be "linden\indra\newview".
* Build -> Build Solution (F7)

== Fix things until the compile succeeds ==

((TBD - add any fixup steps here. e.g. does fmod375.dll need to be moved into RelWithDbgInfo at this step?))

== Annotate your successes and failures here ==

== References ==

These instructions are condensed from about a dozen previous pages of info:
*https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Microsoft_Windows_Builds
*https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Compiling_the_Viewer_%28MSVS2008%29
*https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Jodiah_Jensen#UPDATING_BOOST_LIBRARIES_TO_WORK_WITH_VS2008
** now partially incorrect
*http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-9541

((add other references here))

[[Category:Compiling Viewer]]

Viewer 2 Microsoft Windows Builds

2010-04-18T22:07:28Z

Latha Serevi:

{{multi-lang}}
{{CompileNav}}

THESE INSTRUCTIONS ARE NOT YET COMPLETE OR DEBUGGED as of 18 April 2010.

When finished, we hope this page will constitute a complete recipe for compiling viewer 2 from source on a Windows machine, all in one place, as simply as possible.

Philosophy: to keep it brief, this page should only include steps we KNOW ARE NEEDED, not random hints.

This process will probably take 6 to 12 hours of wall-clock time, and 2 to 6 hours of your time, if you're starting from a fresh Windows XP/Vista/7 system.

== Establish your programming environment ==
This is needed for compiling any viewer based on the LL open source code, but only needs to be done once.

* Obtain Visual Studio (2005, 2008, 2010) (Express is OK)
** [http://www.microsoft.com/express/download/ Click here to download Visual C++ Express - current version is VS2010]
** Note: LL still uses VS2005 internally, which uses the VC80 libraries. VS2008 and VS2010 ((confirm?)) use the VC90 libraries. We'll assume VC90 here.

* Install Microsoft Platform & DirectX SDKs
** Download and install [http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=F26B1AA4-741A-433A-9BE5-FA919850BDBF&displaylang=en Windows SDK for Windows Server 2008 and .NET Framework 3.5]
** Download and install [http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=ea4894b5-e98d-44f6-842d-e32147237638&DisplayLang=en DirectX SDK (August 2008)]

* Install other development tools
** '''CMake''' ([http://www.cmake.org/HTML/Download.html download CMake])
*** must be version 2.6.2 or higher
** '''Cygwin''' ([http://www.cygwin.com/ download Cygwin])
*** When you run the cygwin setup utility make sure you have selected to install '''patchutils''', '''flex''', and '''bison''' (all located under "devel") which are not part of the default install.
** '''Python''' (download either [http://www.python.org/download/ Python.org Standard Python] or [http://www.activestate.com/Products/ActivePython/?mp=1 ActivePython]

== Download and compile libraries that must be manually added to each LL source release ==

It is probably a good idea to build an empty directory tree for the files below and first copy the files there and once completed, copy the whole tree to the actual source folder. Then, if you obtain a new batch of source code, you can save some steps.

rem OLIBS.CMD to build a folder tree for 3rd party libraries and includes
md olibs
md olibs\linden\
md olibs\linden\libraries
md olibs\linden\libraries\include
md olibs\linden\libraries\i686-win32
md olibs\linden\libraries\i686-win32\lib\release
md olibs\linden\libraries\i686-win32\lib\debug
md olibs\linden\libraries\i686-win32\include
md olibs\linden\libraries\i686-win32\include\GL
md olibs\linden\libraries\i686-win32\include\quicktime
md olibs\linden\indra
md olibs\linden\indra\newview

=== Quicktime ===

* Download & install the [http://connect.apple.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/MemberSite.woa/203/wa/getSoftware?fileID=20525&code=y&source=x&wosid=4h16WcyMtVfd2P1EffGafkoxFcr Quicktime SDK for Windows]
* copy "QuicktimeSDK\Libraries\QTMLClient.lib" to "linden\libraries\i686-win32\lib\release" and to "linden\libraries\i686-win32\lib\debug"
* Copy the contents of "QuicktimeSDK\CIncludes" into "linden\libraries\i686-win32\include\quicktime".

=== Fmod ===
* Download & extract [http://www.fmod.org/files/fmod3/fmodapi375win.zip FMOD3.75 API for Windows]. (later versions, like FMOD Ex, are incompatible).
* Copy "fmodapi375win\api\inc\fmod.h" to "linden\libraries\include"
* Copy "fmodapi375win\api\inc\fmod_errors.h" to "linden\libraries\include"
* Copy "fmodapi375win\api\inc\fmoddyn.h" to "linden\libraries\include"
* Copy "fmodapi375win\api\lib\fmodvc.lib" to "linden\libraries\i686-win32\lib\release" and to "linden\libraries\i686-win32\lib\debug"
* Copy "fmodapi375win\api\fmod.dll" to "linden\indra\newview"

=== Boost ===

* Grab the files that Robin Cornelius has precompiled at
http://www.byteme.org.uk/downloads/boost_1_39_VC90_no_scl_shared_crt_static_link.zip
* or alternatively follow the instructions from the 25/Feb/10 and 15/Apr/10 entries of http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-9541

((TBD: verify, simplify, fix))

=== cares ===
TBD

== Set up your source code tree ==

LL distributes the source code in three parts: the source package, the artwork package, and the library package. You should choose whether to use a snapshot or SVN checkout. You'll need art and libraries from a snapshot if you use the SVN method.

* Unzip or checkout your source tree into a directory that has as short full pathname as possible, with NO SPACES in it, to avoid trouble in the build scripts.

* Example: ((specific snapshot example TBD; SVN example also ))

* Copy your "olibs" from above into the source tree.

== Fix known problems with the source code tree ==

TBD - edits to scripts that must be made for windows VC90 builds to succeed?

== Initial build steps using develop.py and CMake ==

You may notice that there's no Visual Studio project file as part of the distributed source tree. That's because it is GENERATED in this step using command-line tools. Only after this step can you begin using the IDE.

* open a Command Prompt window

* Run develop.py --
** From the command line, '''cd into the indra subdirectory'''
** Run <code>"develop.py -G VC90"</code> or <code>"python develop.py -G VC90"</code>
** The <code>develop.py</code> script will create and populate a build directory for you. It should be in <code>'build-vc90'</code>

((TBD: how to tell if you succeeded))

== Compile using the IDE ==

* Run Visual Studio.
* Use "File -> Open -> Project/Solution", navigate to linden/indra/build-VC90/Viewer.vcproj, and open it.
** if you can't find this file, perhaps your previous run of develop.py failed.
* Project ALL_BUILD and configuration RelWithDebugInfo should be selected, and the working directory for ALL_BUILD should be "linden\indra\newview".
* Build -> Build Solution (F7)

== Fix things until the compile succeeds ==

((TBD - add any fixup steps here. e.g. does fmod375.dll need to be moved into RelWithDbgInfo at this step?))

== Annotate your successes and failures here ==

== References ==

These instructions are condensed from about a dozen previous pages of info:
*https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Microsoft_Windows_Builds
*https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Compiling_the_Viewer_%28MSVS2008%29
*https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Jodiah_Jensen#UPDATING_BOOST_LIBRARIES_TO_WORK_WITH_VS2008
** now partially incorrect
*http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-9541

((add other references here))

[[Category:Compiling Viewer]]

Viewer 2 Microsoft Windows Builds

2010-04-18T22:04:33Z

Latha Serevi: /* Boost */

{{multi-lang}}
{{CompileNav}}

THESE INSTRUCTIONS ARE NOT YET COMPLETE OR DEBUGGED as of 18 April 2010.

When finished, we hope this page will constitute a complete recipe for compiling viewer 2 from source on a Windows machine, all in one place, as simply as possible.

Philosophy: to keep it brief, this page should only include steps we KNOW ARE NEEDED, not random hints.

This process will probably take 6 to 12 hours of wall-clock time, and 2 to 6 hours of your time, if you're starting from a fresh Windows XP/Vista/7 system.

== Establish your programming environment ==
This is needed for compiling any viewer based on the LL open source code, but only needs to be done once.

* Obtain Visual Studio (2005, 2008, 2010) (Express is OK)
** [http://www.microsoft.com/express/download/ Click here to download Visual C++ Express - current version is VS2010]
** Note: LL still uses VS2005 internally, which uses the VC80 libraries. VS2008 and VS2010 ((confirm?)) use the VC90 libraries. We'll assume VC90 here.

* Install Microsoft Platform & DirectX SDKs
** Download and install [http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=F26B1AA4-741A-433A-9BE5-FA919850BDBF&displaylang=en Windows SDK for Windows Server 2008 and .NET Framework 3.5]
** Download and install [http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=ea4894b5-e98d-44f6-842d-e32147237638&DisplayLang=en DirectX SDK (August 2008)]

* Install other development tools
** '''CMake''' ([http://www.cmake.org/HTML/Download.html download CMake])
*** must be version 2.6.2 or higher
** '''Cygwin''' ([http://www.cygwin.com/ download Cygwin])
*** When you run the cygwin setup utility make sure you have selected to install '''patchutils''', '''flex''', and '''bison''' (all located under "devel") which are not part of the default install.
** '''Python''' (download either [http://www.python.org/download/ Python.org Standard Python] or [http://www.activestate.com/Products/ActivePython/?mp=1 ActivePython]

== Download and compile libraries that must be manually added to each LL source release ==

It is probably a good idea to build an empty directory tree for the files below and first copy the files there and once completed, copy the whole tree to the actual source folder. Then, if you obtain a new batch of source code, you can save some steps.

rem OLIBS.CMD to build a folder tree for 3rd party libraries and includes
md olibs
md olibs\linden\
md olibs\linden\libraries
md olibs\linden\libraries\include
md olibs\linden\libraries\i686-win32
md olibs\linden\libraries\i686-win32\lib\release
md olibs\linden\libraries\i686-win32\lib\debug
md olibs\linden\libraries\i686-win32\include
md olibs\linden\libraries\i686-win32\include\GL
md olibs\linden\libraries\i686-win32\include\quicktime
md olibs\linden\indra
md olibs\linden\indra\newview

=== Quicktime ===

* Download & install the [http://connect.apple.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/MemberSite.woa/203/wa/getSoftware?fileID=20525&code=y&source=x&wosid=4h16WcyMtVfd2P1EffGafkoxFcr Quicktime SDK for Windows]
* copy "QuicktimeSDK\Libraries\QTMLClient.lib" to "linden\libraries\i686-win32\lib\release" and to "linden\libraries\i686-win32\lib\debug"
* Copy the contents of "QuicktimeSDK\CIncludes" into "linden\libraries\i686-win32\include\quicktime".

=== Fmod ===
* Download & extract [http://www.fmod.org/files/fmod3/fmodapi375win.zip FMOD3.75 API for Windows]. (later versions, like FMOD Ex, are incompatible).
* Copy "fmodapi375win\api\inc\fmod.h" to "linden\libraries\include"
* Copy "fmodapi375win\api\inc\fmod_errors.h" to "linden\libraries\include"
* Copy "fmodapi375win\api\inc\fmoddyn.h" to "linden\libraries\include"
* Copy "fmodapi375win\api\lib\fmodvc.lib" to "linden\libraries\i686-win32\lib\release" and to "linden\libraries\i686-win32\lib\debug"
* Copy "fmodapi375win\api\fmod.dll" to "linden\indra\newview"

=== Boost ===

* Grab the files that Robin Cornelius has precompiled at
http://www.byteme.org.uk/downloads/boost_1_39_VC90_no_scl_shared_crt_static_link.zip
* or alternatively follow the instructions from the 25/Feb/10 and 15/Apr/10 entries of http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-9541

((TBD: verify, simplify, fix))

=== cares ===
TBD

== Set up your source code tree ==

LL distributes the source code in three parts: the source package, the artwork package, and the library package. You should choose whether to use a snapshot or SVN checkout. You'll need art and libraries from a snapshot if you use the SVN method.

* Unzip or checkout your source tree into a directory that has as short full pathname as possible, with NO SPACES in it, to avoid trouble in the build scripts.

* Example: ((specific snapshot example TBD; SVN example also ))

== Fix known problems with the source code tree ==

TBD - edits to scripts that must be made for windows VC90 builds to succeed?

== Initial build steps using develop.py and CMake ==

You may notice that there's no Visual Studio project file as part of the distributed source tree. That's because it is GENERATED in this step using command-line tools. Only after this step can you begin using the IDE.

* open a Command Prompt window

* Run develop.py --
** From the command line, '''cd into the indra subdirectory'''
** Run <code>"develop.py -G VC90"</code> or <code>"python develop.py -G VC90"</code>
** The <code>develop.py</code> script will create and populate a build directory for you. It should be in <code>'build-vc90'</code>

((TBD: how to tell if you succeeded))

== Compile using the IDE ==

* Run Visual Studio.
* Use "File -> Open -> Project/Solution", navigate to linden/indra/build-VC90/Viewer.vcproj, and open it.
** if you can't find this file, perhaps your previous run of develop.py failed.
* Project ALL_BUILD and configuration RelWithDebugInfo should be selected, and the working directory for ALL_BUILD should be "linden\indra\newview".
* Build -> Build Solution (F7)

== Fix things until the compile succeeds ==

((TBD - add any fixup steps here. e.g. does fmod375.dll need to be moved into RelWithDbgInfo at this step?))

== Annotate your successes and failures here ==

== References ==

These instructions are condensed from about a dozen previous pages of info:
*https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Microsoft_Windows_Builds
*https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Compiling_the_Viewer_%28MSVS2008%29
*https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Jodiah_Jensen#UPDATING_BOOST_LIBRARIES_TO_WORK_WITH_VS2008
** now partially incorrect
*http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-9541

((add other references here))

[[Category:Compiling Viewer]]

Get source and compile

2010-04-18T19:50:46Z

Latha Serevi: /* Compiling */

{{multi-lang}}
{{OSWikiContribBox}}

Even if you don't plan to develop, just the act of downloading and compiling can uncover problems. If the version you download doesn't build on your platform, file a bug.

== Getting the source ==

=== Download Source Archives (Zipfile/Tarball) ===

Linden Lab provides current and past downloads in an archived format, see the [[source downloads]] page. Be sure to get all three: source, artwork, and libraries.

=== Version Control ===

Linden Lab also maintains a version control repository. See the [[version control repository]] page for details.

== Compiling ==

Per platform instructions are available in these topics:
* [[Microsoft Windows Builds|Microsoft Windows]]
* [[Compiling the viewer (Mac OS X)|Mac OS X]]
* [[Compiling the viewer (Linux)|Linux]]

* [[Viewer 2 Microsoft Windows Builds|Viewer 2 Microsoft Windows Builds - under construction]]

=== Notes ===

* [[Common compilation problems]] if you run into errors while building.
* [[Improving compilation time]] for information on how to compile faster
* [[LLMozLib2]] for building LLMozLib2.

== Hints on running ==

=== Channels and Versions ===

Channels are just groupings of versions. Linden Lab uses channels to track and supply updates for First Look viewers separately from Release and Release Candidate viewers.

If you get a message while trying to start your compiled viewer that there is a required update, don't panic. All of your work is not lost. You (usually) don't have to apply your changes to a new source release to test your code. That's where channels come in.

On login, the combination of channel plus version is checked against a list. Within each channel, some versions are allowed and some are blocked. Viewers are blocked that are unsafe (security issues),
incompatible (the protocol has been changed in some fundamental way), not
supported (so old Linden Lab can't afford to provide support resources), or
(most relevant here) are in a test channel (Release Candidate, First
Look) and Linden Lab only wants test data from the most recent.

Since this is a convenience for the residents and Linden, but (in most
cases) not a technical requirement, if the channel/version pair doesn't
match, then the viewer is let through.

So: simply change the channel to anything else, e.g. "My Most
Excellent SL Viewer" and you won't get blocked.

You can do that in the source code or on the command line. See [[Channel_and_Version_Requirements#Setting_a_Channel_and_Version_for_an_Open_Source_Viewer | Setting a Channel and Version for an Open Source Viewer]] for an explanation of how to do it in the source code.

On the command line, you simply add a parameter
-channel "My Most Excellent SL Viewer"

On Microsoft Windows, you can incorporate this parameter into the desktop icon that you use to start your viewer. Just edit the Properties for the shortcut and add (or change) the parameter in the Target field.

You can also stick command-line arguments in arguments.txt in the
application bundle (.app directory) on MacOS X or in gridargs.dat in the Second Life install directory on Linux.

See [[Channel and Version Requirements]] for a detailed explanation and official policy on how Linden Lab deals with channels and versions in Second Life.

Please note, however, if you plan to distribute your viewer binary, changing the channel permanently (i.e., editing the source) is not recommended; if you did so, any security problems found in a future would not be checked by the grid, and residents who received your viewer might use that vulnerable version forever.

[[Category:Compiling viewer]]

Viewer 2 Microsoft Windows Builds

2010-04-18T19:47:05Z

Latha Serevi: Initial page creation with some steps TBD

{{multi-lang}}
{{CompileNav}}

THESE INSTRUCTIONS ARE NOT YET COMPLETE OR DEBUGGED as of 18 April 2010.

When finished, we hope this page will constitute a complete recipe for compiling viewer 2 from source on a Windows machine, all in one place, as simply as possible.

Philosophy: to keep it brief, this page should only include steps we KNOW ARE NEEDED, not random hints.

This process will probably take 6 to 12 hours of wall-clock time, and 2 to 6 hours of your time, if you're starting from a fresh Windows XP/Vista/7 system.

== Establish your programming environment ==
This is needed for compiling any viewer based on the LL open source code, but only needs to be done once.

* Obtain Visual Studio (2005, 2008, 2010) (Express is OK)
** [http://www.microsoft.com/express/download/ Click here to download Visual C++ Express - current version is VS2010]
** Note: LL still uses VS2005 internally, which uses the VC80 libraries. VS2008 and VS2010 ((confirm?)) use the VC90 libraries. We'll assume VC90 here.

* Install Microsoft Platform & DirectX SDKs
** Download and install [http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=F26B1AA4-741A-433A-9BE5-FA919850BDBF&displaylang=en Windows SDK for Windows Server 2008 and .NET Framework 3.5]
** Download and install [http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=ea4894b5-e98d-44f6-842d-e32147237638&DisplayLang=en DirectX SDK (August 2008)]

* Install other development tools
** '''CMake''' ([http://www.cmake.org/HTML/Download.html download CMake])
*** must be version 2.6.2 or higher
** '''Cygwin''' ([http://www.cygwin.com/ download Cygwin])
*** When you run the cygwin setup utility make sure you have selected to install '''patchutils''', '''flex''', and '''bison''' (all located under "devel") which are not part of the default install.
** '''Python''' (download either [http://www.python.org/download/ Python.org Standard Python] or [http://www.activestate.com/Products/ActivePython/?mp=1 ActivePython]

== Download and compile libraries that must be manually added to each LL source release ==

It is probably a good idea to build an empty directory tree for the files below and first copy the files there and once completed, copy the whole tree to the actual source folder. Then, if you obtain a new batch of source code, you can save some steps.

rem OLIBS.CMD to build a folder tree for 3rd party libraries and includes
md olibs
md olibs\linden\
md olibs\linden\libraries
md olibs\linden\libraries\include
md olibs\linden\libraries\i686-win32
md olibs\linden\libraries\i686-win32\lib\release
md olibs\linden\libraries\i686-win32\lib\debug
md olibs\linden\libraries\i686-win32\include
md olibs\linden\libraries\i686-win32\include\GL
md olibs\linden\libraries\i686-win32\include\quicktime
md olibs\linden\indra
md olibs\linden\indra\newview

=== Quicktime ===

* Download & install the [http://connect.apple.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/MemberSite.woa/203/wa/getSoftware?fileID=20525&code=y&source=x&wosid=4h16WcyMtVfd2P1EffGafkoxFcr Quicktime SDK for Windows]
* copy "QuicktimeSDK\Libraries\QTMLClient.lib" to "linden\libraries\i686-win32\lib\release" and to "linden\libraries\i686-win32\lib\debug"
* Copy the contents of "QuicktimeSDK\CIncludes" into "linden\libraries\i686-win32\include\quicktime".

=== Fmod ===
* Download & extract [http://www.fmod.org/files/fmod3/fmodapi375win.zip FMOD3.75 API for Windows]. (later versions, like FMOD Ex, are incompatible).
* Copy "fmodapi375win\api\inc\fmod.h" to "linden\libraries\include"
* Copy "fmodapi375win\api\inc\fmod_errors.h" to "linden\libraries\include"
* Copy "fmodapi375win\api\inc\fmoddyn.h" to "linden\libraries\include"
* Copy "fmodapi375win\api\lib\fmodvc.lib" to "linden\libraries\i686-win32\lib\release" and to "linden\libraries\i686-win32\lib\debug"
* Copy "fmodapi375win\api\fmod.dll" to "linden\indra\newview"

=== Boost ===
TBD
=== cares ===
TBD

== Set up your source code tree ==

LL distributes the source code in three parts: the source package, the artwork package, and the library package. You should choose whether to use a snapshot or SVN checkout. You'll need art and libraries from a snapshot if you use the SVN method.

* Unzip or checkout your source tree into a directory that has as short full pathname as possible, with NO SPACES in it, to avoid trouble in the build scripts.

* Example: ((specific snapshot example TBD; SVN example also ))

== Fix known problems with the source code tree ==

TBD - edits to scripts that must be made for windows VC90 builds to succeed?

== Initial build steps using develop.py and CMake ==

You may notice that there's no Visual Studio project file as part of the distributed source tree. That's because it is GENERATED in this step using command-line tools. Only after this step can you begin using the IDE.

* open a Command Prompt window

* Run develop.py --
** From the command line, '''cd into the indra subdirectory'''
** Run <code>"develop.py -G VC90"</code> or <code>"python develop.py -G VC90"</code>
** The <code>develop.py</code> script will create and populate a build directory for you. It should be in <code>'build-vc90'</code>

((TBD: how to tell if you succeeded))

== Compile using the IDE ==

* Run Visual Studio.
* Use "File -> Open -> Project/Solution", navigate to linden/indra/build-VC90/Viewer.vcproj, and open it.
** if you can't find this file, perhaps your previous run of develop.py failed.
* Project ALL_BUILD and configuration RelWithDebugInfo should be selected, and the working directory for ALL_BUILD should be "linden\indra\newview".
* Build -> Build Solution (F7)

== Fix things until the compile succeeds ==

((TBD - add any fixup steps here. e.g. does fmod375.dll need to be moved into RelWithDbgInfo at this step?))

== Annotate your successes and failures here ==

== References ==

These instructions are condensed from about a dozen previous pages of info:
*https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Microsoft_Windows_Builds
*https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Compiling_the_Viewer_%28MSVS2008%29
*https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Jodiah_Jensen#UPDATING_BOOST_LIBRARIES_TO_WORK_WITH_VS2008
** now partially incorrect
*http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-9541

((add other references here))

[[Category:Compiling Viewer]]

AW Groupies

2010-04-13T21:33:26Z

Latha Serevi: /* 2010 meetings */

=Purpose=
Serious technical discussion about Linden Lab's [[Architecture Working Group|Architecture Working Group (AWG)]]. "AW Groupies" is an unofficial, Resident-operated group, though most (all?) members also participate in the AWG.

Invite only (apply in-world to [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]), but the criterion is simple. Show up and contribute to the AWG, at [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]'s office hours, or on the Wiki, or on SL-Dev or in the [irc://irc.freenode.net/#pyogp irc channel] for the [[Pyogp/Client_Lib|Python test client]].

=Activities=
The [[AW_Groupies#Architecture_Working_Group_meetings|main AWG meeting]] is held annually or semi-annually.
We now [[AW_Groupies#In-World_Meetings|meet up to 8 times a week in-world]], counting AW Groupies meeting, Zero's office hours, Which's office hours, Enus's office hours, Whump's office hours and the [[Pyogp#In_World_Meetings|pygop daily meetings]].

Our main focus these days is on the [[Open Grid Protocol]], the [[Open_Grid_Public_Beta]] and the [[Pyogp|pyogp Python test harness]] for protocol testing.

Also members are quite active on the wiki and in the SLDEV mailing list.

A public SVN repository is open to all AW Groupies members here:
* http://openmv.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/archwg/

Contact anyone with root on openmv.org for an account if you are in the AW Groupies group in-world.

==Architecture Working Group meetings==
* [[AWG_Meeting_1|AWG I annual meeting transcript, participants' responses, etc]]
* [[AWG_Meeting_2|AWG II annual meeting transcript, video, participants' responses, etc]]

==In-World Meetings==
===AW Groupies meeting===
Weekly meeting times are:
* '''Mondays''' -------

* '''Tuesdays''' ------ 9:30 AM SLT at [http://slurl.com/secondlife/ThorneBridgeTown/156/129/25 Zha's IBM Island at ThorneBridgeTown] (weekly AWG meeting)
* ------------------ FIRST TUESDAY of the month ONLY: 1 PM SLT at [http://slurl.com/secondlife/Grasmere/171/112/27 Zero Linden's office hours at Grasmere]
* ------------------ Noon SLT [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies#OpenSim__meeting| Open Sim Meeting]

* '''Wednesdays''' -- Suspended until further notice: 1:30 PM SLT @ [http://slurl.com/secondlife/ambleside/228/244/25/?title=Whump%20Linden%27s%20Office Whump Linden's Office Hours] (main meeting for public grid open beta)

* '''Thursdays''' ----- 11 AM SLT at [http://slurl.com/secondlife/Beaumont/149/44/24 Which Linden's office hours at Beaumont] (often AWG-related these days)
* '''Fridays''' --------- 1 PM SLT [http://slurl.com/secondlife/Longfellow/99/97/28 Enus Linden's Office Hours] (starring PyOGP and [[Pyogp#Pic_of_the_Moment|a cast of several bots]])
:
Meetings are scheduled via the "[http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com SL AW Groupies" google calendar]" (though the above schedule is generally more accurate).

* [http://www.google.com/calendar/feeds/pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic XML]
* [http://www.google.com/calendar/ical/pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics ICal]
* Calendar ID: pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4@group.calendar.google.com
* [http://www.google.com/calendar/render?cid=pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com Add to your Google Calendar]

====Meeting Agendas====

Each meeting should have an agenda --- which will be distributed via
* google calendar entry
* in-world notice to the SL "AW Groupies" group
* the [[AW Groupies In-World Meeting Agenda]] wiki page

===OpenSim meeting===
* Tuesdays/Saturdays noon SLT, at Wright Plaza sim in OSGrid. [http://osgrid.org/index.php?page=home&btn=1 Registration Page]

Set [[Client_parameters|client command line options]] to:
:-loginuri http://osgrid.org:8002
:-loginpage http://osgrid.org/loginscreen.php
:-helperuri http://osgrid.org/

===Chat Logs===

Chat logs of the in-world meetings are published and accessible via the links below:

====2007 meetings====
:* September: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/2007-09-28 | 28]]
:* October: [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-01 | 1]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-05 | 5]] [[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2007_Oct_09|9 --Zero's office]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-16| 16]]
:* November: [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-06 | 6]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-13 | 13]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-20| 20]]
====2008 meetings====
:* January: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-01-08|08]]
:*February: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-02-19|19]]
:*April: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-08|08]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-22|22]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-29|29]]
:*May: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-05-20|20]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-05-27|27]]
:*June: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-03|03]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-10|10]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-17|17]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-24|24]]
:*July: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-01|01]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-08| 08]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-15|15]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-22|22]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-29|29]]
:*August: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-05|05]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-12|12]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-19|19]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-26|26]]
:* September [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-09|9]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-16|16]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-23|23]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-30|30]]
:* October [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-07|7]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-14|14]] [[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_October_14|14 --Zero's O.H.]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-28|28]]
:* November [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-11-11|11]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-11-18|18]]
:* December [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-09|9]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-16|16]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-23|23]]
====2009 meetings====
:*January [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-06|6]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-13|13]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-20|20]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-27|27]]
:*February [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-03|3]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-10|10]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-17|17]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-24|24]]
:*March [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-03-03|3]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-03-10|10]]
:*April [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-07|7]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-14|14]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-28|28]]
:*June [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-06-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-06-16|16]]
:*July [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-07-21|21]]
:*September [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-09-15|15]]
:*October [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-10-20|20]]
====2010 meetings====
:*March [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-03-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-03-09|9]]
:*April [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/JoeLindenTPVBrownbag-2010-04-13|13 (Joe Linden TPV Brownbag)]]

*
* [[MMOX#Chat_logs|MMOX chat logs]] -- in-world transcripts with non-SL/Opensim participants
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Grid_Interoperability_Chat_Logs All Grid Interoperability chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:AW_Groupies_Transcripts All AW Groupies chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Pyogp_Transcripts All Pyogp chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Open_Grid_Public_Beta_Transcripts All Open Grid Public Beta Transcripts]
*
* [[User:Zero_Linden#Transcripts_of_previous_office_hours|Zero Linden's Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Which_Linden|Which Linden's Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Enus_Linden| Enus Linden Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Whump_Linden| Whump Linden Office Hour Transcripts]]
*
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=chat+log OpenSim chat logs]
* [[Mono/2008-04-04 | mono beta meeting discussion of het-grid]]

(if you post chat logs, you might want to use the [[User:Dr_Scofield/logtransform|sllog2wiki perl script]] to turn them into a more readable wiki table format ready to copy & paste into the chat log page)

Chat logs of AWGroupies meetings should be summarized on the wiki.

==Viewpoint Advocacy Groups==

[[Viewpoint Advocacy Groups]] - groups to focus on specific requirements.
=== AWG-specific VAGs===

* [[Core Grid Services, Protocols, and Structures VAG]]
* [[Event Scalability VAG]]
* [[Geometry and Physics VAG]]
* [[Live Performances VAG]]
* [[Quality Assurance VAG]]
* [[Scalability VAG]]
=== AWG-related VAGs===
* [[Map_API_VAG]]
* [[Multi-Process Client VAG -- draft]]

=Work-In-Progress=

Work-in-progress wiki pages are architecture pages that are (as the name implies ;-)) work in progress. Once the group has reached consensus that a particular topic is "good-to-go" we'll graduate that page to the [[Architecture Working Group|main AWG page]].

==General Concerns==
* [[Scoping]]
* [[Architecture Working Group Glossary|Glossary]]
* [[Use Cases]]
===Open Grid Protocol (OGP)===
====Linden Pages====

====User Pages====

==Communications==
* [[Initial CAPS seed]]
* [[AWG initial flows]]
* [[AWG flows login]]

* [[Mudata]]
* [[Streamlet]]
===Documenting current protocols===
* [[Pyogp|Python test harness for OGP]]
** [[User:Which_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_May_22| Which Linden office hours 22 May 2008]]
====AWG and citizen pages====
* [[Current_login_protocols]]
* [[Current_Sim_Capabilities]]
* [[Example_protocol_code]]
* [[Hegemons_Login_Analysis#Very_simple_C.23__server]]
* [[User:Gareth_Ellison/Supergrid|Litesim grid interop]]
* [[EventQueueGet_CAP| Event Queue Get CAP]]

====Linden Lab pages====
* [[Service_Disruptions|"Satellite's Eye" view of the Second Life architecture from a service disruption POV]]
* [[Message_System_and_Capabilities]]
* [[Viewer_Authentication]]
* [[Viewer_Architecture]]
* [[Protocol]]
* [[LLSD]]
* [[Certified_HTTP_Escrow]]
* [[ImprovedInstantMessage]]
* [[Client_parameters|client command line parameters and stuff]]

====libsecondlife reference pages====
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Login Login page]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Protocol_%28network%29 Protocol page]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Category:Packets packets index]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Movement Movement]

====opensim reference pages====
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Grid_Architecture_Diagram opensim grid architecture diagram]
* [http://opensimulator.org/images/3/3c/OGS1Login_Sequence.jpg login diagram (same general sequence as current LL login)]

=== Future Protocols===
* [[Second_Life_Login_API_Strawman]]
:deprecated in favor of:
* [[Open Grid Protocol]]
** [[SLGOGP_Teleport_Strawman]]
*[[Architecture_Working_Group#Design_Documents | Ongoing next generation protocols documentation effort by Linden Lab]]

=== Possible future directions ===
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenID| OpenID A decentralized single sign-on system]
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yadis| Yardis A digital identity protocol]

==Asset Security and Trust==
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Dale_Innis/Asset_handling_in_OGP Asset Handling in OGP]
* [[Protecting content in an open grid]]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Infinity_Linden/OGP_Trust_Model OGP Trust Model]

==Scaling Issues==
* [[Brainstorming#ANALYSIS:_Region_Subdivision_as_a_scaling_method| Region Subdivision]]
* [[Brainstorming#ANALYSIS:_Scalability_through_reverse_proxies:_the_paravirtual_grid| Reverse Proxies]]
* [[AWG Scalability through per-resident subdivision of the Grid| Resident Subdivision]]
===Group IM===
* [[Message_Queue_Evaluation_Notes| Which Linden's message queue evaluation notes]]

==Other==
* [[Use_Cases#Extended_Capability_Clients|Extended Capability Clients]]

=Thinking-in-Progress=

* Have a look and contribute to the [[Brainstorming|brainstorming]] page.

* It's early days on the [[Multi-Process Client VAG -- draft]], but we would highly appreciate input to help with design choices and direction.
==Misc User Pages==
* Have an AWG idea? Don't know where in the wiki it should be indexed? Make sure that folks can find it by adding it to the [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:AW_Groupies_User_Pages AW_Groupies_User_Pages] Add: <nowiki>'[[Category:AW Groupies User Pages]]'</nowiki> to the end of your user page.

=External Resources=

Stuff of interest to or in connection with the [[AW Groupies]] or the [[Architecture Working Group]]:

* [[Developer_communication_tools|Developer Communication Tools (Linden Lab)]]
* [[SLDev|SLDev Main Page]]
* [[Open_Grid_Public_Beta]]
* [[Pyogp]] {Linden Labs/ AWG Python-based protocols testing library)
*
* [http://openmv.org/ OpenMetaverse Home]
**[http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Main_Page libsecondlife (libsl) homepage]
**[http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page opensim homepage]
**[http://openviewer.org openviewer homepage]
**[http://code.google.com/p/openmetaverse/wiki/SimianGrid SimianGrid]
*[http://www.osgrid.org OSGrid: open/non-profit OpenSim based grid]
* [http://www.realxtend.org/ realxtend homepage]
*
* [http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/22428.wss IBM PR re: AWG]

Latha's quick list of interop relevant VW sites, 3/30/2010
* http://tools.ietf.org/wg/vwrap/
* http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page
* http://openwonderland.org/
* http://www.realxtend.org/
* http://code.google.com/p/openmetaverse/wiki/SimianGrid
* http://www.opencobalt.org/
* http://www.solipsis.org/
* http://www.web3d.org/

==Second Life Viewers==
Various viewers compatible with Second Life.

::*Note: the "Derived 3rd-party clients" page includes a few non GPL viewers plus some hybrids. I'll try to come up with a better way to index this stuff. [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]
::*Yeah, that redirect of "Alternate_viewers" to "Downloads" is nuts, and the "Downloads" page itself seems to have to have a variety of things bundled together --- it needs splitting. But don't split it by license, that's precisely what I sought to eliminate in this section's re-org. It makes no sense to classify clients by license, since GPL'd clients don't necessarily have anything to do with Linden's code, just like BSD clients don't necessarily have anything to do with libomv. It does make sense to keep a list of Linden-derived clients though, since they're all more alike than not alike, and share both code and license encumbrance. [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]] 01:28, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

===Viewers based on the Linden Lab GPL code (C++)===

*[http://secondlife.com/support/downloads.php Main Second Life viewer/client]
:The main (official) Second Life viewer, produced by Linden Lab with the help of patches submitted by the community, and available for Linux, Mac and Windows.

*[[Snowglobe|Snowglobe]]

:A new version of the Second Life client in a public repository where Linden Lab permits direct committing from select community members alongside daily Linden work. There is also a new build system to keep this version continuously building when new submissions are received, with new builds available to everyone. This version will become available as an alternative Linden download alongside the main SL client, once it is sufficiently stable.

*[[Alternate_viewers|Derived 3rd-party clients]] (''currently links to a mixed "Downloads" page, to be fixed'')
:A large list of clients (not necessarily 3D) developed in the free and open-source community using GPL code from the above two official viewers.

===Viewers based on the libomv/libsl code (C#)===

* [http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/idealistviewer/ Idealist]
:IdealistViewer is a new cross-platform viewer based on the Irrlicht engine, PrimMesher, and LibOpenmetaverse. It can either use the Second Life protocols as provided by LibOpenmetaverse or the MXP protocol. Since it uses the Irrlicht engine it can simultaneously display prim/sculptie content and objects and animated meshes/avatars from a wide variety of sources such as Collada, .OBJ, DirectX, and Blitz3D files. It is not derived from the LL GPL viewer and is made available under BSD style licensing. It is designed to work with OpenSimulator but may also work with Second Life. It is written in the C# language.

* [http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/lookingglass/ LookingGlass]
:LookingGlass viewer is a modular viewer with pluggable communication and rendering engines. Initial communication plugin uses LibOpenMetaverse and the initial rendering plugin uses PrimMesher and Ogre. It is written in C# and BSD licensed. Home site at http://lookingglassviewer.org/ .

===Viewers based on other libraries (python, C, etc)===

* [[Pyogp]]
: Pyogp is an open source project between Linden Lab and the Architecture Working Group (AWG) to support testing the (Open Grid Protocol (OGP). Written in Python, Pyogp will consist initially of a client library and test functionality to enable testing OGP-enabled virtual worlds such as Second Life and compatible OpenSim implementations. These components will expand as the effort matures. Pyogp is released under the Apache v2 license.

==Mailing Lists==
* [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo List of Linden Lab mailing lists]
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sldev SLDEV] Main mailing list for SL developers
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gridnauts gridnauts] Mailing list for participants in Open Grid Public Beta
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pyogp PyOGP] Mailing List for Python-based client library and test harness for the Open Grid Protocols
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Resources#Mailing_Lists libsecondlife]
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page opensim]
* [http://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/openviewer-dev openviewer]

==IRC==
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#opensl
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#opensl-jira (real time updates of entries to jira.secondlife.com)
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#opensl-svn (updates of the the public SVN)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#opensim * irc://irc.freenode.net/#opensim-dev
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#libomv * irc://irc.efnet.net/#libomv-dev
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#openviewer * irc://irc.freenode.net/#openviewer-dev
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#realxtend (Finnish language but can handle English if needed)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#pyogp (Python test harness/pyogp Second LIfe library irc)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#gridnauts (Open Grid Public Beta irc)

==Forums==
* [http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend| realXtend google forum]

==Capabilities==

* [http://www.cap-lore.com/CapTheory/index.html Capabilities theory and practice]
* [http://wiki.erights.org/wiki/Zooko%27s_triangle Zook's Triangle index] -- short list of interesting articles about naming and capabilties
* [http://www.cs.washington.edu/homes/levy/capabook/ Capability-based Systems by Henry Levy] --online copy of 1984 book on early implementations of capabilities systems
* [http://www.erights.org/ E language home] [https://www.cypherpunks.to/erights/ E language home mirror] [http://wiki.erights.org/ E wiki] --computer language dedicated to handling distributed trust issues
** [https://www.cypherpunks.to/erights/elib/capability/index.html Capability Computation]
** irc://irc.freenode.net/#erights
** [http://www.eros-os.org/mailman/listinfo/e-lang E language mailing list]
* [http://www.eros-os.org/mailman/listinfo/cap-talk mailing list for capability systems]
* [http://mscheffler.wordpress.com/2008/01/20/diploma/ blog and thesis on caps in virtual worlds Martin Scheffler]
* [http://homepage.mac.com/kpreid/elang/den.html Cap-based MUD by Kevin Reid] --written in E
* [http://www.fudco.com/chip/lessons.html discussion of ancient (Commodore 64!) video game that used capabilities]

==Misc==

* [http://blog.signpostmarv.name/2008/07/29/non-unique-region-names-within-the-confines-of-a-single-grid-yay-or-nay/ non-unique region names within the confines of a single grid, yay or nay ?]
* [http://blog.signpostmarv.name/2008/01/04/map-api-in-new-location/ discussion of new Map API and related issues]
* [http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source Open Source Portal] --index to all things Open Source for Linden Lab

=Members=

Founder [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]

[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]

[[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]

[[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]

[[User:Dr Scofield|Dr Scofield]]

[[User:Burhop Piccard|Burhop Piccard]]

[[User:Vicero Lambert|Vicero Lambert]]

[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]

[[User:Silicon Plunkett|Silicon Plunkett]]

[[User:Dale Innis|Dale Innis]]

[[Category:Architecture Working Group]]
[[Category:Grid_Interoperability]]
[[Category:AW Groupies]]
[[Category:MMOX]]

AW Groupies/Chat Logs/JoeLindenTPVBrownbag-2010-04-13

2010-04-13T21:29:49Z

Latha Serevi:

{|
Text and voice chat transcript from the Joe Linden TPV policy brown-bag meeting, 4-13-2010 noon PDT.
Lines beginning with the string [Voice Transcript] were transcribed (often
paraphrased) from SL Voice by volunteer transcriptionist Latha Serevi.

Some of the text chat arrived into SL via the IRC relays.

|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:03]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ... there's an object with a voice bridge access code 787705 ... can dial in from 30 access numbers around the world....''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: were si the stream?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:03]
| colspan="2"|''CG Linden waves''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Merov Linden|Merov Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hi guys
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Voice is up on LindenEstateServices 2,3,4 down on plain LindenEstateServcies
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Sierra Janus|Sierra Janus]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|30 numbers around the world, except the only one given is a US number?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Johan Neddings|Johan Neddings]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Is it a Webex conference number ?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I see 1-301-789-0017 is one of those numbers according to the speakerphone object.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joe Linden|Joe Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Frequently_asked_questions_about_AvaLine:_Dial_an_Avatar
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Merov Linden|Merov Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|du beau monde.... :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|There's no voice in this sim, according to my client. And voice has always worked for me. Vivox is just overloaded
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Voice is not working on Linden Estate Services sim, please move to Linden Estate Services 2, 3 or 4
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:04]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe LInden: just pasted a list of worldwide dial-ini numbers.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Voice is up on LindenEstateServices 2,3,4 down on plain LindenEstateServcies
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ann Otoole|Ann Otoole]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|disable and reenable voice and it might start working
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Voice (SLPlugin) is never working
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|morg: i see those that sit next to you... so vioce works for them
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:05]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: or you could just scrap the voice and use text - more efficient that way''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Sierra Janus|Sierra Janus]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Gareth++
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aimee Linden|Aimee Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|they'll probably show as (???)(???) for dial-in
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|My voice finally connected
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:05]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: i don't get why so many official-ish functions on SL these days require voice''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:05]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: if the voice channel becomes noisy, indivuduals can mute the relay object in SL...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kyrah Abattoir|Kyrah Abattoir]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|meh voice is for lazies
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|brb, I have to reset to get on voice. For the record, I don't think voice was a good idea for this :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:06]
| colspan="2"|''Latif Khalifa shouts: Voice is not working on Linden Estate Services sim, please move to Linden Estate Services 2, 3 or 4''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:06]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: if listening on a voice line, please mute your phone when not speaking...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Blondin Linden|Blondin Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Im back
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aklo Modan|Aklo Modan]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe, pls mute me if i'm the one with the cellphne
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|this is unacceptable.... I can't hear anything, I can't say anything....
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:06]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: is there a UK access number? and more important - is it an 0800 number?''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Evan Hush|Evan Hush]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Temporal Mitra|Temporal Mitra]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I have no issue with voice...but do have carpel tunnel...so voice is appreciated
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:06]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: Let's get going.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Sierra Janus|Sierra Janus]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And just to make it more difficult, ensure when you are speaking you are standing on your head :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Frequently_asked_questions_about_AvaLine:_Dial_an_Avatar#What_are_the_AvaLine_local_access_numbers.3F
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Gypsy Paz|Gypsy Paz]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|going with what? 1/2 of us can't hear anything
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:06]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: I'll assume those intersted are listining in in some fashion.,''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I was going to rely on Robin to make our point, but now Robin says he got no voice either??
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|This is on voice
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe, I can't listen.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|JOE #@%$!@#%$#!@%$%~$!#%$!@$ NOOOO!@
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:07]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: objective: hear collective comments of this group''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:07]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...presumably largely made up of OS contributors and active Residents''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Aughvoice
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I AM FUCKING INTERESTED AND YOU DON"T HAVE A STREAM!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"..as well as active residents who havea vested interest in the continued helath and welfare of the platform
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:07]
| colspan="2"|''Entered chat range by Timeless Prototype''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Thickbrick Sleaford|Thickbrick Sleaford]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Should we be hearing someone?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Blondin Linden|Blondin Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hi All!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"couple of groundrules for this brown bagf
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:07]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: Suggseted ground rules -- questions directly for Joe, send by IM to Blondin.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Grey Tomsen|Grey Tomsen]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|to who?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"Send questions by IM to Blondin Linden
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fractured Crystal|Fractured Crystal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I don't seem to see Joe in the voice list on my end
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ichi Merit|Ichi Merit]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hi Blondin
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Grey Tomsen|Grey Tomsen]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ok ty
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"Not going to do this with a lot of protocol want this to be interactive
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Is LL Legal represented here?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|YOU KNEW THAT VOICE DOES NOT WORK FOR MANY PEOPLE - DON"T GIVE US "I *ASSUME* THAT THOSE INTERESTED ARE LISTENING SHIT!!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:07]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: Not a lot of protocol,m would like to keep this interactive.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"Looking for constructive comments about the changes this group feels should be made to policy
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"Like it to be construcgtive as possible
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:08]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: What I'm looking for is constructive comments about changes that this groups think could be made to the policy''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fractured Crystal|Fractured Crystal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think there 4 corners are one more than one voice channel
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Temporal Mitra|Temporal Mitra]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|can we remove aleric...I'm offended by the coarse language he is using
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:08]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: Let's try to keep it as respectful as possible...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"Colelct a set og commentary that represents the widest .. voices so we can do someting before policy goes into effect at end of the month
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"Ranting is fine if you feel the need to rant
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:08]
| colspan="2"|''Soft Linden shouts: Dial 1-301-789-0017 and enter code 787705# if you're here late and can't hear voice''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:08]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...and will feed them back into LL by the end of the month.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"If you rant and make a grand exit thats ok too
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Evan Hush|Evan Hush]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:09]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: Ranting is somewhat OK, but please try to end your rant with something specific.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:09]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: I'll try to collect as wide as possible a selection of comments...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ichi Merit|Ichi Merit]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Maybe exiting THEN ranting
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"But end the rant with some sort of proposed suggestion
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"The goals for the meeting are to see if there are some specific concerns we can isolate anad address with common language
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:09]
| colspan="2"|''Soft Linden shouts: Other local numbers are available''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Get a stream Joe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:09]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: i have just one comment, and then the only other thing i want to do is listen''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"We've beent alking about this on many channels
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"Want to see if the group can reach consensus
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:09]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: We've been talking about this asynchronously, but the point of this is to see if we can reach consensus on where the core of the problem is.,..''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Take us seriously
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"Goals of the policy are:
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"Want to start by restating
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:09]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: I'll start by restating the Ggoals of the policy.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:10]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: so, that's pretty much my only critique''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:10]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: For the first time we've decided it's necessary to set some boundary conditions for access to the grid''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks Latha I'll stop if you're transcribing. :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:10]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: my ONLY comment on the policy mess is this: it'd be a lot simpler if the policy only addressed requirements for the viewer directory and requirements for users who login with TPV''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:10]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: s - if that's all the policy addressed, nobody would complain''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:10]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: there's been a lot of back&forth, technically, but this is about setting the bounds...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Robin Conrnelius has a document that many people have contributed to, read that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|gareth: +1
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Robin Cornelius|Robin Cornelius]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|my shoutcast is running
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Robin Cornelius|Robin Cornelius]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|http://www.byteme.org.uk:8000/ streaming voice
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:10]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...for connecting to the grid services, leaving as large3 a space as possible for innovation.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:10]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: is anything said here going to end up changing the actual policy document?''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:10]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: Intent is not to shrink that space, quash innnovation.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:11]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: It's to expand it -- in a way that clearly sets the boundaries for what's acceptable.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Gavin Hird|Gavin Hird]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|everyone mute your mics please
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine: sending you an IM
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:11]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: [Folks on the phone are coming through clearly, please be aware you need to be quiet]''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:11]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: this voice stream is like various noise artists''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:11]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: all jamming together''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|kk
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:12]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: So, the idea is to take some steps regarding malicious TPV's, trim the "long tail" of viwers that are creating problems for current users and new users...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Evan Hush|Evan Hush]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|please mute mics
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Robin: the stream is very destorted... too loud
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ok
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:12]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: there exist viewers that snoop passwords...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:12]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...viewers that are specifically designed for griefing (coming back quickly from bans)...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:13]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: a comment regarding malicious viewers: policy will do NOTHING there, only technical measures in the form of hardening the server side''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:13]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ... known cases of viewers that leave malware behind on your system...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:13]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...there are substantial risks in play here.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:13]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: we've done little, over the years, toaddress thosse ristks, that's the goal here.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe's talking about risk with TPVs, when the TPV has said NOTHING about risks
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|No argument from me, I think a policy is a good idea.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:13]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: the first topic: is there an argument against the idea that some policy is needed?''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:14]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: if there is such an argument, we're probably not going to make much progress....''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Temporal Mitra|Temporal Mitra]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|certainly not...the policy is needed, in my opinion....the policy has to be flexible enough for inovation, is all
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:14]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...but those of us who agree that such a poilicy could have legitimate ais, maybe we can make progress.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:14]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: the answer i believe is the viewer directory having a set of requirements, leaving the risk of using a viewer not in the directory to users''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: you are talking about a USAGE policy, which has nothing to go with developers.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe, the intentions were never disputed
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:14]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: i believe a set of best practices is better than a legally binding (or intended to be binding) document''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:14]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: (asks for feedback now)''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ann Otoole|Ann Otoole]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|sure we need a policy. But more importantly LL needs to prove they can block them at the gate. Otherwise the activity will go on unabated. the bad guys do not care about policies ot TOS/CS.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The current policy is bad. Comming up with a policy is a good idea, but a bad policy will make things worse then no policy at all.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif++
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Abriel Pleides|Abriel Pleides]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|a policy is needed, but needs to focus on the halting of the malicious viewers and leaving the good viewers to their own devices
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If the TPV referred to intentions, there would be no problem.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:15]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: a policy on what users are allowed to do is important''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:15]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: a policy on viewer directory requirements is important''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:15]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: Morgaine suggests it's a "user policy" I'm after, but that wouldn't address harmful TPV's...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:15]
| colspan="2"|''Zarutian: DRM doesnt work!''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: the TPV did NOT say either of those things.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The problem with TPVP is percieved disconnect betweeen the intent and the actual content of TPVP
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:15]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: a policy which passes liability onto developers and makes demands as to the adding/removal of features is insane''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Why does the current TPV policy does not defferantent between devolopers and users? The current form muddles the waters there.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:15]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: e.g. ones that violate our promise to respect IP rights of creators...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and what makes anyone think that an addition to the TOS is going to actually STOP a malicious viewer developer?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:16]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: Policy tries to separate obligations&responsibility of the user & the developer...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Temporal Mitra|Temporal Mitra]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|those developers should be hung up by their thumbs....and a policy that makes them accountable is needed
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:16]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: that promise is one nobody else can break''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:16]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...and tries to make it explicit in each section.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:CeeJay Tigerpaw|CeeJay Tigerpaw]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Those developers probably are not here and won't pay attention to the policy anyway; I think the concern is that the policy paints with so broad a brush as to implicate honest developers for things they have not done.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That seems to be one of the most contentious issues here, I don't know why there can't be ONE policy for Developers and ONE policy for users.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i don't think that neil is cancelling his account over the TPV policy.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:16]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: Where there's overlap we've tried to make that clear.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Can someone with voice ask Joe: ... Is a TPV policy needed to take legal action against such developer?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:16]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: LL can "respect" copyrights of content creators while not promising "and nobody will ever be able to copy your stuff"''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:16]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: if LL have promised the mathematically impossible, that's their problem''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Temporal Mitra|Temporal Mitra]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|you mean snowglobe?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:17]
| colspan="2"|''Jack's power ring whispers: Warning! Transfer permissions are set on zht_OnRezUpdateCheck!''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:17]
| colspan="2"|''Jack's power ring whispers: Warning! Modify permissions are set on zht_OnRezUpdateCheck!''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:17]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Evan Hush: The SL "test client" allows copying of any assset, isn't that a security hole that we should get rid of?''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ichi Merit|Ichi Merit]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|A password only security system will have challenges regardless of viewers. A security fob/smart phone option should be considered similar to EBAY/Banks/WoW authenticators should seriously be considered... please
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:17]
| colspan="2"|''Storm Basiat whispers: Hi Soft''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:17]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: Comment on Lance's --- we know that malicious viewers can't be defeated, but that's not an excuse to leavfe the "bar" lying on the gorund.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:17]
| colspan="2"|''Sierra Janus whispers: So having some "''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Temporal Mitra|Temporal Mitra]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so it is more about making the developers accountable?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dale Glass|Dale Glass]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|quality on the phone just got really horrible
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Sierra Janus|Sierra Janus]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Policy is magically going to fix it?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:18]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: the problem is that using malicious viewers is already against the TOS''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: your TPV does not express that intent. It gives you an overreaching wildcard, and that's what we're fighting. NOT THE INTENT.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:lawsonenglish: http|lawsonenglish: http]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|//www.byteme.org.uk:8000/ third party viewer policy with Joe Linden
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|morgaine: THAT.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|dale try shoutcast stream at http://www.byteme.org.uk:8000
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:18]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...those blatantly disregarding the intended SL experience....we're raising the bar up off the gorund...there are areas that aren't up for grabs: fishing for passwords, ignoring perms....''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:18]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: more policy won't fix the problem of malicious viewers''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:18]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: there are some areas that we'll identify explicitly as out of bounds.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:18]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: The doal is to create a fertile space within those bounds.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:18]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: voice stream is cleaner now''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|He's not reading the chat... this is a failure
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:19]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...not to go after the ev community for violations that weren't intended.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:CeeJay Tigerpaw|CeeJay Tigerpaw]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Then say that in the legal agreement!!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|then why is that not stated unambiguously in the policy?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|CeeJay++
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ann Otoole|Ann Otoole]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If LL has evidence of unauthorized network access combined with evidence of data theft will LL file charges under California Penal Code Section 502?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|is more of a radio broadcast:(
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Gareth: SL-Aleric|Inglewood|Gareth: SL-Aleric|Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|you're right
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Then SAY that in the policy.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Techwolf++
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:19]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...or as a lens for creating litigation for where there wasn't any. we need the tools to take action against malefactors.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe is doing a "Protect the children" thing here. Here's listing all the things we agree with.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:19]
| colspan="2"|''Multi Gadget HUD Lite v4.0.12 by Timeless Prototype''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:19]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...whether it's trademark violators, etc....we've had no tools....''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ron Ghostaltar|Ron Ghostaltar]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The problem is the way the Policy is written you're lumping us legit devs and contributers with griefer devs. For developers its too generalized.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:CeeJay Tigerpaw|CeeJay Tigerpaw]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Say that in a legal document that will protect us in court.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:20]
| colspan="2"|''Geneko?Nemeth agress with Morgaine''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:20]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: I didn't want to make a speech, sorry.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joe Linden|Joe Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Robin_Cornelius/tvp_mods
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|joe, i sent you a mail when you asked for suggestions on sldev
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:20]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden:There have bene a couple of efforts to create "diffs" to the TPV ... Robin...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joe Linden|Joe Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/FLOSS_community_concerns_about_the_Linden_Lab_policy_on_third-party_viewers#d
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:20]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...another one here...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I can sign off on the one on Robin's page
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|There is apparently a LAG of 1 minute in the chat that I hear... to make it even more enjoyable
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:21]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: my goal, and we havne't done a great job of it, is to redouble our efforets to fully suppo0rt the open source community.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe, this seems like a real mess. What do you see as a workable process, to address ALL THE MANY objections ?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:21]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: we've ha a lot of internal debate around cost/benefit of OS''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:21]
| colspan="2"|''Jack's power ring whispers: Warning! Transfer permissions are set on zht_OnRezUpdateCheck!''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:21]
| colspan="2"|''Jack's power ring whispers: Warning! Modify permissions are set on zht_OnRezUpdateCheck!''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Sierra Janus|Sierra Janus]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Bit late to have that "debate" now >:(
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:21]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...and we're fully committed to redoubling our commnitment to make this a successful program for the 100 existing signatories to contrib agreements and 1000 people on osdevf...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(if we're going to hold meetings in voice, there should be a means of recording voice directly)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Gareth: SL-Sebastean|Steamweaver|Gareth: SL-Sebastean|Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|there is
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:22]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: wget ''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Sierra Janus|Sierra Janus]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|How can some of the restrictions in 2. of the TPV even be allowed when they conflict with 2. of the GPL2?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:22]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: the stream is mp3-encoded''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:22]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: We're working on that. It saddens us to see committed OS developers make noisy departures based on something we thin k is long overdue...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:22]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: wget it into an mp3 file''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|me
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i don't know what latha is hearing, but i don't hear what she is hearing. at least it seems so:(
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:22]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: If there's more to be said, e.g. next week, it's to understand why passionate people would choose to walk away.,...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: Those developers left because your TPV document was written amateurishly.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:LapisLazuli Tomorrow|LapisLazuli Tomorrow]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i am hearing what latha is transcribing . doing a great job
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ann Otoole|Ann Otoole]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|because the policy appears to make devs liable irl for the activities of their code users via defects and defects that may originate in LL code.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:23]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: I'd like to see if there are any specific changes proposed....''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha++
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:23]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: people who have shown a passion about the platform walking away should be a huge alarm bell''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kyrah Abattoir|Kyrah Abattoir]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|not only that but they are totally unenforceable unless you know the identity of the developper...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:CeeJay Tigerpaw|CeeJay Tigerpaw]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The written policy gives you "license to kill" developers who have not done anything wrong. Fix that.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Devon Alderton|Devon Alderton]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The legitimate TPVs currenlty in use took years to develop..often a few people working to meet the needs of particular communities, who have not doneanything wrong..who may be unable to meet your deadlines and reaction time requirements.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:23]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden:... that we might be able to fix before the policy goes into effect ont he 30th...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Boroondas Gupte|Boroondas Gupte]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the TPV policy, not code documentation
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:23]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Everything can always be improved
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:23]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: i think most people object to the liability''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:23]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: Morgaine...the effort put into this was significant, "amateurish" is harsh....''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|joe, excuseme, the amateurish quality of some parts of that policy is one of the MAIN issues
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Do you consider it in LL's best interest to put expensive barriers in place of those who would like to develop technology that will improve your business prospects?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:24]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: before the doc was published, we checked with many external sources...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Was it knee jerk responce to the complaints and lawsute from stoker and others?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Sierra Janus|Sierra Janus]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'd call "being in conflict with the GPL 'amateurish'"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:CeeJay Tigerpaw|CeeJay Tigerpaw]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|++Mojito.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:CeeJay Tigerpaw|CeeJay Tigerpaw]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The quality of the TPV is the main issue here.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Mojito, a court looks intent... proven fact
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Wut Moorlord|Wut Moorlord]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: primarly people left because the developers were not included in the policy making and you did not communicate your intentions with them.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:24]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...specifics w.r.t. GPL conflicts....''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:24]
| colspan="2"|''Geneko?Nemeth: But it is the issue''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:24]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: We had no intentions o f modifying the rights under which the code was licensed...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe - did you not forsee this sort of pushback????
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:24]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: did you contact the SFLC or FSF? obviously not''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Talina Juliesse|Talina Juliesse]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|are you saying that it doesn't conflict with GPL then?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|JOE: the current TPV policy says almost literally that "the GPL developer must not do this and shall not distribute when.. etc"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Sodovan Torok|Sodovan Torok]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|In fact, the letter of the TPVP is not anywhere close to the intent that you are verbally stating here today.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:24]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Sierra Janus|Sierra Janus]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Right, so basically the only way to resolve the GPL conflicts is to wait until you sue us and battle it out in court
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:24]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: and received confirmation that what we ddid was within our rights. We did anticipate pushback....''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:24]
| colspan="2"|''antont: it is just not possible for a viewer developer to agree with terms that make him/her responsible for something that someone else does''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:25]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...undergone several rounds of change....''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|sodovan: +++
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:CeeJay Tigerpaw|CeeJay Tigerpaw]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|++antonit
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Theodolite Wickentower|Theodolite Wickentower]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Frankly, I'm not interested in the policies or not... I follow trademark rules and intellectual property rights as best I know how. My argument is with this new viewer and how clumsy it is, prone to freezing, the pickiness of graphic card requirements, and now platforms I can use are getting yanked.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:25]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: With that, I'd like to hear from some other voices.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kyrah Abattoir|Kyrah Abattoir]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so how are you planning to enforce this policy if you can't get the identity of a TPV developper and thus have no leverage on him?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|LOL
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:CeeJay Tigerpaw|CeeJay Tigerpaw]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That is not how we read it.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|This is where we disagree
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:25]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: I do think that if you read the document and listen to my words, there's 100% overlap. [?]''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|[12:22] Sierra Janus: How can some of the restrictions in 2. of the TPV even be allowed when they conflict with 2. of the GPL2?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|sorry latha. my sound was a little delayed
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|TPV can't nullify the GPL... so that is a moot point to argue
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I don't believe the policy and you say the same thing
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Theo, viewer 2 is not the topic here.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ann Otoole|Ann Otoole]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|can the policy be changed to reflect the devs are not liable for defects or exploits that are not coded intentionally?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:25]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Jack Abraham|Jack Abraham]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe, even to this layman that's not the case.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|You didn't address anything so far :/
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: if your TPV does not conflict with the GPL, then all GPL developers of TPV are protected by the GPL, and hence your TPV is worthless in the bulk of what it says about developer liability and developer freedom to modify and distribute.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:26]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: if I heard hte question, what's our longterm policy for non signatories to the TPV?''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:26]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: SL-Ann|Otoole raises an important point''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:26]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: voice stream has gone quiet''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:26]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: (1) the directory is separate, a source of education for resi's''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:26]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...regarding devs who are willing to self-certify.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Wut Moorlord|Wut Moorlord]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Ann: agreed
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:26]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: That's voluntary program, educational tool, shed more light on and explaining why it's valuable...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:26]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Robin: I have requested to Blondin to ask Joe to examine your document. Apparently Joe has not addressed it yet.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|tPV listing...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:27]
| colspan="2"|''Lance Corrimal snorts''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:27]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: i think most people would be willing to self-certify to a reasonable policy''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:27]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...will take steps to change the pace of approval (backlog right now)...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:WhiteStar Magic|WhiteStar Magic]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Voice just failed
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Talina Juliesse|Talina Juliesse]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That doesn't address the question asked.. Will LL be banning users by the bulk as of Apr. 30 using viewers that aren't part of the directory?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Sierra Janus|Sierra Janus]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|What a surprise
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Blondin Linden|Blondin Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine, he's aware of the document by Robin :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:27]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: Viewers outside the directory need to adhere to the policy, that's not optional.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Sierra Janus|Sierra Janus]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Talina: No
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so far listed: a bot client, a cellphone map viewer, and kirsten which is useless unless you have a 5000$ computer.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|JOE: I would like to see digital signatures as an option with the TPV to help improve its intent
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Boroondas Gupte|Boroondas Gupte]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|How can a developer control whether his software will be used to connect to SL?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:27]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: bad viewers harm users, devs, everybody.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:27]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Evan Hush|Evan Hush]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:28]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: won't talk about technical means, that wouldn't make any sense.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:28]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: but we do intend to enforce.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:28]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: how do you plan on enforcing the policy for viewers that are developed by none-SL users?''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|QUESTION for Joe: Can Linden Lab simply disagregate the "developers" and "users" in the policy? It seems that that alone would resolve a large number of complaints. One TPV policy for developers, and a second TPV for users of TPVs.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:28]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: or just devs who have refused to accept the new TOS''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Wut Moorlord|Wut Moorlord]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe:you have just stated that if a user of e.g. emerald was crashing sims, you would ban emerald, is this what you meant?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe has said nothing about the TPV wording yet. Zilch.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:28]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: e.g. viewer identification, people are trying to turn over our rocks, but we do intend to ID viewers violating.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:LapisLazuli Tomorrow|LapisLazuli Tomorrow]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|fleep ++
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:28]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ... and take steps available to us.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Thickbrick Sleaford|Thickbrick Sleaford]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Fleep: +1000
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|fleep, ++111
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:28]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: I can tell I'll have to read the chat offline to get 100% of this.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:28]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Vegas Silverweb|Vegas Silverweb]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Doesn't an openmetaverse "Hello World" bot violate the current TPV?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ann Otoole|Ann Otoole]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lindens must have me on corporate mute lmao
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Vegas Silverweb|Vegas Silverweb]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yes it does
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|In the end it will be what ever person has more money and people working for them that will set the rules in the end and they will not care about any persons freedoms
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:29]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: Vegas is asking if "hello world" violates TPV. Of course not.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the current official SL clientt would violate the TPV
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Sodovan Torok|Sodovan Torok]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol Ann, you troublemaker you :D
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:29]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: If the OMV viewer doesn't present the TOS, it is violating...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|QUESTION for Joe: Can Linden Lab simply disagregate the "developers" and "users" in the policy? It seems that that alone would resolve a large number of complaints. One TPV policy for developers, and a second TPV for users of TPVs.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|whose tos?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(sorry to repeat)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:29]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|doesnt it say "has to compile to the provided binary"?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:29]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...but certainly nothing wrong with _saying_ hello world.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:30]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Latif: the problem I see is, what you're saying and what section 7 says, are not the sxame!''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|what of an experimental viewer which isnt even to the point of displaying webpages?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Blondin Linden|Blondin Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Robin_Cornelius/tvp_mods
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:30]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: Let's look at section 7, I've heard of that being a problem. If Robin's mods are an accurate selection ...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thank you Blondin
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Gareth: SL-Latha|Serevi|Gareth: SL-Latha|Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i love your accent
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:30]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ... of the comments of the community, then that's good m aterial to address.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:30]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|USERS SUEING US BECAUSE WE ARE LIABLE FOR DAMAGES???
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:30]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Latif: 7A says you're responsible for everything as a dev.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Vegas Silverweb|Vegas Silverweb]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|there's nothing wrong with writing a "hello world" bot, but it's not practical to have it display TOS changes, so that's the major flaw in the current TPV policy
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kyrah Abattoir|Kyrah Abattoir]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|wich contradict the gpl that states developpers are not responsible
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Which is a GPL violation. So as soon as we connect to the grid with a GPL viewer, we violate the GPL and thus lose our rights to use the software under the GPL, lol.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ron Ghostaltar|Ron Ghostaltar]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Or if someone spoofs your viewer or mods your viewer you're held liable
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:31]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: what about dynamically coded viewers?''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:31]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: i sometimes write viewers in realtime from the python command line''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zarutian Morpork|Zarutian Morpork]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the "USE AS IS" cop out clause?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:31]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Latif: usually I disclaim liability. Now, I have to sign something that says I am fully responsible? Get sued by anybody?''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Theodolite Wickentower|Theodolite Wickentower]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I know when I had to agree to 14(!!!) legaleeze sounding rules to sign on a couple weeks ago, I almost killed off 5 innocent avitars and left SL all together. That much legaleeze makes me think I'm getting ripped off, whether I am or not.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:31]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|what they both mean is that under 7a and 7d of the tpv policy, i as a tpv developer would be liable to refund jill and jacks inventory losses because of a bug that orginated in original linden code!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:31]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: I guess I have two questions here. If the problem is the "...or distribute" at the end of the sentence...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: the TPV states that the connection protocol has to adhere to SL documented protocol, and that the protocol is documented in the Snowglobe sources. But the Openmetaverse library is reverse engineered, and they WILL NOT EXAMINE YOUR SOURCES. So that entire section in TPV is flawed as it stands.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:32]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: It's very specific. Code that _you_ develop.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Johan Neddings|Johan Neddings]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|7A: "You are responsible for all uses you make of Third-Party Viewers, and if you are a Developer, you are also responsible for all Third-Party Viewers that you develop or distribute."
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:32]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ... the question is, is that problematic.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:32]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Wut Moorlord|Wut Moorlord]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: bugs happen. things break. someone loses inventory, we need a disclaimer
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:32]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Latif: yes, is is a problem. NO WARRANTY is normal.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:32]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: does that liability include bugs?''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:33]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: no warranty for downstream users is very different than what we're describing here!''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Talina Juliesse|Talina Juliesse]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think one thing that developers are concerned is that they will be held responsible for code that LL created that is faulty as well.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: the GPL provides a "NO WARRANTY" clauses (11-12), which protects all recipients (upstream and downstream) of those modifications.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Thickbrick Sleaford|Thickbrick Sleaford]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Does linedn lab accept liablity for their code? (answer: no, in capital letters in the TOS)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:33]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: what this states is, devs are responsible for what you add. if there's a challenge....''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:33]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: this whole thing IS a legal argument joe''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|NOT TRUE JOE
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That's our issue, Joe. The TPV mixes up the line between developers and end users, and it makes everything unclear and potentiall GPL violating.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It does NOT say that!!!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:33]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:j3rry Paine|j3rry Paine]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|++++
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:33]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] ...crosstalk....that's not what is says.... geneko says something.... Latif.: responsible for code you add OR DISTRIBUTE....''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:j3rry Paine|j3rry Paine]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|not true
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: What about clients which are created, without specific purpose of connecting to the Second Life service, which aren't based on the client source? Do you think the WoW Glider decision gives you the right to enforce policies on these clients that may never intend to connect to Second Life at all?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:CeeJay Tigerpaw|CeeJay Tigerpaw]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Make the last sentence of (7a) read as follows, perhaps: "If you are a Developer, you are responsible for all features, functionality, code, and content that you develop, for Third-Party Viewers that distribute."
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:34]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Latif: the wording says I'm responsible for LL bugs!!!!''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Talina Juliesse|Talina Juliesse]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|then the wording needs to be clearer.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:WhiteStar Magic|WhiteStar Magic]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|a developer is NOT responsible for teh misuse of any application software.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|They assume responsibility means full liability
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:j3rry Paine|j3rry Paine]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|unbelievable
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kyrah Abattoir|Kyrah Abattoir]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|all that matter is what will be read not what "you ment"!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:34]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: that's not what it says. Chorus of voices: But that's what a court might say!!''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: your INTENT is not at issue. Your WORDS are.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:j3rry Paine|j3rry Paine]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it's what you just said, joe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:34]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lots of people think it DOES say that though
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:34]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: If I break it into two parts, would that fix it? The parts you create, and the parts you distribute?''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:CeeJay Tigerpaw|CeeJay Tigerpaw]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Make the last sentence of (7a) read as follows, perhaps: "If you are a Developer, you are responsible for all features, functionality, code, and content that you develop, for Third-Party Viewers that you distribute."
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:j3rry Paine|j3rry Paine]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|would you?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:35]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Latif: no, that wouldn't do it. NO WARRANTY.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:35]
| colspan="2"|''nekoyasha: Warrenty is usually only offered with a support contract.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zarutian Morpork|Zarutian Morpork]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|cant have your cake and eat it too
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:35]
| colspan="2"|''Geneko_Nemeth: Ow ''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Vegas Silverweb|Vegas Silverweb]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|How can kirsten's s20 be certified, it's mostly alpha code, and it can't have been audited for TPV policy compliance
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:35]
| colspan="2"|''Geneko_Nemeth: Joe just crashed''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:35]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: Geneko_Nemeth has it''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:35]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Latif: why do we need 7A when we have 7C?''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:35]
| colspan="2"|''Melfina: Joe Crashed.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Chaley May|Chaley May]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ive crashed twice allready :(
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:35]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: [HAS CRASHED]''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|There are 50 people here who say that THEY think it says that we are responsible for the code (written yourself or not). We cannot be legal liable. That doesn't won't work for open source.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|There are 50 people here who say that THEY think it says that we are responsible for the code (written yourself or not). We cannot be legal liable. That doesn't won't work for open source.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Abriel Pleides|Abriel Pleides]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|well at least it's good to know lindens can crash too :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:35]
| colspan="2"|''Geneko_Nemeth has crashed once''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|who is it that is stepping on his mike?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:35]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Machiel Menges|Machiel Menges]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hehe ?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:35]
| colspan="2"|''Geneko_Nemeth can't type with SL as it's too laggy....''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:36]
| colspan="2"|''Geneko_Nemeth: Lindens crash a lot.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lonely Bluebird|Lonely Bluebird]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe needs to try Emerald, it's more stable.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|aleric: +++
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Vegas Silverweb|Vegas Silverweb]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|LOL
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Nomad Padar|Nomad Padar]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Right Lonely.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|or frozenglobe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Is anyone recording the actual voice stream, if that's possible?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:36]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: lol lonely''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:36]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: so is meerkat''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:36]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: the "evil" meerkat''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Katelyn Manamiko|Katelyn Manamiko]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|even MS says is not responsible for bugs in the code:)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:36]
| colspan="2"|''Merov Linden using SG1.3.2... super stable wrt voice''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:36]
| colspan="2"|''koderer: i can't believe he says devs are responsible for bugs yet ll isn't''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:36]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: should someone?''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kyrah Abattoir|Kyrah Abattoir]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i don't know for you but i'm actually scared when i'm asked to abid to a contract where the person making me sign it says that what is written isn't what he ment...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Wut Moorlord|Wut Moorlord]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Lonely: >:] truth
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Talina Juliesse|Talina Juliesse]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|der crashyness.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Geneko_Nemeth: SL-Sebastean|Steamweaver|Geneko_Nemeth: SL-Sebastean|Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I am, but I crashed in the middle...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:36]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] voice is still silent for now.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:36]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lonely Bluebird|Lonely Bluebird]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Mmm, meerkat! Mac and ID spoofing in a legitimate looking viewer.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|kyrah: exactly
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|a reminder to any and all interested geeks, denizens, citizens and residents, AW Groupies is an in-world discussion group that is supposed to regularly discuss these and other issues from a technological and/or political/regious perspective
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|IM me for a group invite if you're interested
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eduardo Kukulcan|Eduardo Kukulcan]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|creeepy quiet
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:37]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] ...it's so quiet....''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:37]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: i'm recording the fascinating sound of people breathing''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:37]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: as of now''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:WhiteStar Magic|WhiteStar Magic]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|voice is dead here
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|TOO quiet
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eduardo Kukulcan|Eduardo Kukulcan]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|You sound very clear to me
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Johan Neddings|Johan Neddings]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Welcome back Joe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe is back
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"What about clients which are created, without specific purpose of connecting to the Second Life service, which aren't based on the client source? Do you think the WoW Glider decision gives you the right to enforce policies on these clients that may never intend to connect to Second Life at all?"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kyrah Abattoir|Kyrah Abattoir]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm surprised we even have this conversation, everything the developpers have to abid to is in the gpl, nothing can be added or removed.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RaptonX Zorger|RaptonX Zorger]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|well if voice was on everyone would be talking at once
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:37]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: TIME TO SLAG OFF JOE WHILE HE'S NOT HERE''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:37]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: joking...... ''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:37]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|what voice ?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Geneko Nemeth|Geneko Nemeth]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Kyarh: I think a TPV is necessary in addition to GPL, but the TPV shouldn't limit anything in the GPL.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Redorange Magic|Redorange Magic]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Here he is!!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eduardo Kukulcan|Eduardo Kukulcan]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|wb Joe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Joe Linden|Joe Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|One sec, waiting for voice
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:38]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] ..bit of confusion..."hey, we're being so polite, this is great"...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: Please consult Marty Linden, LL legal counsel. Marty stated at a previous brown bag meeting that it is the USER of a TPV that bears the responsibility for all usage of TPV code, not the viewer being responsible, nor the developer being responsible. And that user responsibility would be GPL-compatible. It's exactly what the GPL says.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kyrah Abattoir|Kyrah Abattoir]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the tpv can only limit itself to a connection policy, LL can't simply modify the gpl as they see fit
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:38]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: i'm recording the voice stream''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Vegas Silverweb|Vegas Silverweb]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|"use the service" has nothing to do with the gpl
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Geneko Nemeth|Geneko Nemeth]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And the TPV should apply to LL-released viewers as well.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Thickbrick Sleaford|Thickbrick Sleaford]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe, the LL TOS has 2 paragraphs that disclaim any liability or warranty for THEIR OWN CODE, IN ALL-CAPS. Why should TPVs be any different?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:JenzZa Misfit|JenzZa Misfit]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|...good luck getting voice back after crashing
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:38]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eduardo Kukulcan|Eduardo Kukulcan]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Holy Toledo... Joe's a RObot.. I thought he was a smoke ball that I'd been seeing for the past half hour
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:38]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: i think i'll bugger off for now''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ron Ghostaltar|Ron Ghostaltar]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I don't hear Joe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Kyarh++
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the voice is only in the sim joe is in
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Chaley May|Chaley May]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i dont thinkt he TPV is allt hat bad :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Redorange Magic|Redorange Magic]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:39]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] We back in action now?''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kyrah Abattoir|Kyrah Abattoir]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and thus the tpv policy technically doesn't concern tpv developpers at all
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|No voice from Joe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: Open source developers cannot accept any legal liability for the code they write. Not for bugs, not for damages done, nothing :/. That is the main point of the problem.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Aleric++
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Chaley May|Chaley May]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|my typing is worse
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:solace1369 Tigerpaw|solace1369 Tigerpaw]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|no voice from jo here either
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:39]
| colspan="2"|''Geneko_Nemeth: Uh-oh, Joe lost his voice.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:39]
| colspan="2"|''Soft Linden shouts: No voice from Joe on the dialup number''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fractured Crystal|Fractured Crystal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|can't or won't
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:39]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: will come back later and upload the recording''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the meeting place is split in 4 parts and voice may not work for all people that way
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:WhiteStar Magic|WhiteStar Magic]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|can't hear Joe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and NO developer can take responsibility for code that someone else wrote!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:39]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] silence, static, blondin quietly mumbles...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:JenzZa Misfit|JenzZa Misfit]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I never have problems with voice / but the sim crashed / and I cant get voice back now ... anywhere. Ive relogged 5 times trying .. so listening on iTunes now
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:39]
| colspan="2"|''Geneko_Nemeth: SL-Kyrah|Abattoir ++''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:39]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Jack Abraham|Jack Abraham]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Voice is no way to hold an in-world meeting anyway.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Eduardo Kukulcan|Eduardo Kukulcan]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I can't hear
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:solace1369 Tigerpaw|solace1369 Tigerpaw]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|must be one of the call in's
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Abriel Pleides|Abriel Pleides]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|joe lost voice
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|please keep it to all text
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Redorange Magic|Redorange Magic]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|uch better
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:40]
| colspan="2"|''vivox speakerphone 0.95 whispers: Speakerphone disabled to new calls''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I can't remember when I've crashed so much
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Theodolite Wickentower|Theodolite Wickentower]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|snicker.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:JenzZa Misfit|JenzZa Misfit]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|you can put this URL in itunes or winamp to listen in ::: http://www.byteme.org.uk:8000
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Blondin Linden|Blondin Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:40]
| colspan="2"|''vivox speakerphone 0.95 whispers: Speakerphone enabled, your conversations can be heard! Position = <262653.75000, 30.00000, -259843.25000>''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:40]
| colspan="2"|''vivox speakerphone 0.95 whispers: To dial in, call 1-301-789-0017 with access code 787705''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|goodness gracious.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:40]
| colspan="2"|''vivox speakerphone 0.95 whispers: Speakerphone disabled to new calls''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:JenzZa Misfit|JenzZa Misfit]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Fleep ! woot !
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:40]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] OK, Joe's gonna try another trick...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Geneko Nemeth|Geneko Nemeth]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I have to agree, in-world meetings are better held with text. Especially with so many people!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:40]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Redorange Magic|Redorange Magic]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Let me just say, I LOVE SL!!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Jack Abraham|Jack Abraham]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|We all do, or this wouldn't upset us.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kyrah Abattoir|Kyrah Abattoir]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|if we had a chat meeting we could all be using a text only client, much more stable.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:JenzZa Misfit|JenzZa Misfit]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|you do Redorange :) or you would not be here :0
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:41]
| colspan="2"|''Krull Quar shouts: Ummm Im below the platform if thats possible lol''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|While you wait, you may all praise your transcriptionist now.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Brookston Holiday|Brookston Holiday]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Anyone know any good jokes?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:JenzZa Misfit|JenzZa Misfit]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yay Latha ! rock on !
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|all hail the holy transcriptionist
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(When Joe came to me and said: would it help to have a few office hours about this topic, I said: maybe, but only with a FEW most involved open source developers (ie, 8 at most), to really discuss details... He also knows that voice doesn't work for me ... And then we get his - lol)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm hearing typing.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:IFellThroughA Trapdoor|IFellThroughA Trapdoor]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|all hail to the great Latha!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RaptonX Zorger|RaptonX Zorger]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Abriel Pleides|Abriel Pleides]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|though with chat everyone's statememnts get lost in the madness and jumble of it all
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:JenzZa Misfit|JenzZa Misfit]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|can you transcribe this ? -----> s;dfkj;skdfjksfisuek4rn23k4j28oijn ! !!!! lskdjf;lek r er 111
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:41]
| colspan="2"|''Latif Khalifa bows to transcriptionists1''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Redorange Magic|Redorange Magic]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|?? YAYYYYY!!! ??
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Redorange Magic|Redorange Magic]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Transcriptionist!!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Theodolite Wickentower|Theodolite Wickentower]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Oh yes, I know it is.... someone's keyboard is loud, btw.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:41]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ron Ghostaltar|Ron Ghostaltar]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the grid gods have spoken you must use Text Joe :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Abriel Pleides|Abriel Pleides]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|voice is necessary for these meetings
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|just remember we are sitting on 4 sims and text is the only way to do it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:42]
| colspan="2"|''Melfina: green text will always stand out.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Gavin Hird|Gavin Hird]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|nice typing sound
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The group is too large for any but a monologue
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:WhiteStar Magic|WhiteStar Magic]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|LATHA: THANK YOU FOR YOUR EFFORTS
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:42]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Q: are we out of voice now or what?''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Thickbrick Sleaford|Thickbrick Sleaford]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|whoever stole Joe's keyboard, give it back to him...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:42]
| colspan="2"|''Geneko Nemeth opens the miminap... 109 people in chat range''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:JenzZa Misfit|JenzZa Misfit]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yikes .. freddie krueger
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|there's also a web feed of the voice, so it shouldn't be an issue for 99% of hte pople (unles they can't hear sounds over the web)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Da5id Kronfeld|Da5id Kronfeld]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I've crashed twice already -- voice is working though
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Redorange Magic|Redorange Magic]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|whoever is 8312472512... please turn off your mike
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Flimsey Freenote|Flimsey Freenote]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe could call in
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:42]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:JenzZa Misfit|JenzZa Misfit]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|tst tst tst tst ... ah ah ah ah ......
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:42]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe has crashed, he's still workin on it''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Robin Cornelius|Robin Cornelius]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Sai, i need to be able to hear voice to relay it to the web server
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:43]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Ok I've crashed like 15 times here
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:43]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] did 3 sims just crash?''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Honey Fairweather|Honey Fairweather]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|we should all be on Radegast to make this easier. but then again we might be contravening TPV policy if we do.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:CPU Core|CPU Core]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|sims are crahsing??
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm about to give up
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kyrah Abattoir|Kyrah Abattoir]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|one sim just died
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Redorange Magic|Redorange Magic]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|OMG
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Heh, the world just died :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Krull Quar|Krull Quar]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Whoa
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:JenzZa Misfit|JenzZa Misfit]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yikes !
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Redorange Magic|Redorange Magic]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|whole sim just disappeared
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Train wreck. :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:44]
| colspan="2"|''Zarutian is just lagging out''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:44]
| colspan="2"|''Talina Juliesse laughs''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ron Ghostaltar|Ron Ghostaltar]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I don't see Joe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:44]
| colspan="2"|''Jagga Meredith sees water where people used to be''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:44]
| colspan="2"|''AKLo: Redorange, is my phone stil causing pbs? (247 2512)''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Brookston Holiday|Brookston Holiday]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|my god the humanity!!!!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:44]
| colspan="2"|''Melfina: is someone here?''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:44]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] ZOMG it's a TPV griefing us, LOL''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Vegas Silverweb|Vegas Silverweb]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|sl doesn't scale :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The earth dropped into a void :
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|its all Joe's fault
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:JenzZa Misfit|JenzZa Misfit]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|think happy thoughts everyone !!!!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:JenzZa Misfit|JenzZa Misfit]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Krull Quar|Krull Quar]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That was crazy lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:44]
| colspan="2"|''Saijanai Kuhn notes he's sitting elsewhere''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:44]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: i picked a terrible time to record didn't i?''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:CPU Core|CPU Core]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|you know these 4 sim meetings never do work really
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Abriel Pleides|Abriel Pleides]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|welcome to SL joe!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Johan Neddings|Johan Neddings]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yes, Joe is trying to get his voice back
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:44]
| colspan="2"|''Melfina: what sims are online?''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:44]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|some one please put up working video screens not demos so we can all hear
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:45]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: should i continue recording or scrap it?''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zarutian Morpork|Zarutian Morpork]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|okay who is typing on their keyboard with their phone?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:45]
| colspan="2"|''JenzZa Misfit wonders is Saijanai got some new hair product''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zarutian Morpork|Zarutian Morpork]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|4
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well it's not just the sims crashing, I mean IVE crashed like 15 times
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Katelyn Manamiko|Katelyn Manamiko]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|zero time dialation o.0
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Honey Fairweather|Honey Fairweather]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|wow, i just missed the edge. i feel like i booked to go on the next ship after the Titanic
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:45]
| colspan="2"|''Brookston Holiday loves the sound of typing''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Jagga Meredith|Jagga Meredith]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|sim's back
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kyrah Abattoir|Kyrah Abattoir]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i preferthins instead of those secret meetings where nobody is invited because it's better to not get "too much user input"
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Krull Quar|Krull Quar]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hehe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:45]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|This is normal, sim scalability has been dropping over many years. It used to be 75 4 years ago, and now it's 50 or so.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|morgaine: make that 30
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Jagga Meredith|Jagga Meredith]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|or 10
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Jack Abraham|Jack Abraham]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Do I hear 25?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zarutian Morpork|Zarutian Morpork]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|why is that?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:46]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Some texan-accented voice says, that thang just come back up, now pardners gotta log back in.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|:-(
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|because thze server code isnt gpl yet?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:46]
| colspan="2"|''Melfina: are SL logins failing for anyone?''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and yet there are some sims that can hold 100 people ?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:JenzZa Misfit|JenzZa Misfit]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kyrah Abattoir|Kyrah Abattoir]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|well for one thing avatars became more and more bloated with attachments with the years...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:JenzZa Misfit|JenzZa Misfit]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latha !
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Beats me, Zaru
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:46]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: i have a 5.3mb MP3 file full of nothing''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:46]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: anyone want it?''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RaptonX Zorger|RaptonX Zorger]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|not failing for me
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|xstorm, you mean 100 unrezzed traffic bots
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:46]
| colspan="2"|''Discrete Dreamscape wonders why there's so many people wearing all their attachments.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:46]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|anyway for the record, whomever is recording this, what we as TPV devs want is the same legel cover LL keeps for itself:
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|LL ToS, section 10.2 LINDEN LAB PROVIDES THE SERVICE, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION THE LINDEN SOFTWARE, THE WEBSITES, THE SERVERS, THE LINDEN IN-WORLD CONTENT, AND YOUR ACCOUNT, STRICTLY ON AN "AS IS" BASIS, AND HEREBY EXPRESSLY DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES OR CONDITIONS OF ANY KIND, WRITTEN OR ORAL, EXPRESS, IMPLIED OR STATUTORY, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION ANY IMPLIED WARRANTY OF TITLE, NONINFRINGEMENT, MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:47]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: be warned.......''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:47]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: [gareth@lovely ps3_pup]$ rm /mnt/hitachi/downloads/sl_meeting.mp3''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:47]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: i'm about to hit enter''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm wearing a chat bridge on my spine (no rez zone). ;-)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:47]
| colspan="2"|''Rex Cronon shouts: i can hardly hear on voice some of the people talking. maybe we all neeed to get closer to the center''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Lance lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Krull Quar|Krull Quar]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Im a naked kitty using very few resources ^^
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|we want to be able to do that, nothing more, nothing less
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Uh oh the ARC police. ;)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Geneko Nemeth|Geneko Nemeth]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I prefer OGG/Vorbis, it's not a good streaming format but it's roality and patent fee.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:JenzZa Misfit|JenzZa Misfit]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|quick Fleep ! lets bust out some Eshi gowns ! WOOT !
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hah
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Gareth: SL-Geneko|Nemeth|Gareth: SL-Geneko|Nemeth]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but the stream is MP3
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fractured Crystal|Fractured Crystal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|haha
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:47]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: and i'm not re-encoding it on the fly''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:IFellThroughA Trapdoor|IFellThroughA Trapdoor]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|there must be a better way of doing this. skype conference call?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:47]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] ...static... (I see joe flying in)''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hey I have low ARC for once :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:47]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Redorange Magic|Redorange Magic]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Ah, he's back again!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|wb again Joe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:48]
| colspan="2"|''Geneko_Nemeth knows he has a very laggy avatar but didn't have the time to change to a less laggy one.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:48]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: ok, reset my recording''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:48]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: OK, folks, that was fun.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kyrah Abattoir|Kyrah Abattoir]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|weebee
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:48]
| colspan="2"|''Rex Cronon shouts: IMO. text only would have been way better''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|wbe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:48]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: Let's use tthe time we ahve....''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Honey Fairweather|Honey Fairweather]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: i think developers are asking for parity with LL own waiver of responsibility, certainly with respect to Linden code which needs to be clarified in the draft, but also with respect to their own, which seems like a reasonable request.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|wb*
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:48]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...we were just getting somewher...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:48]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: Joe - you're being recorded straight to my harddrive!''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:48]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: .... I hear you, there's a premise that devs should take responsibilty for NOTHING,''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe, this is your own ToS: LL ToS, section 10.2 LINDEN LAB PROVIDES THE SERVICE, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION THE LINDEN SOFTWARE, THE WEBSITES, THE SERVERS, THE LINDEN IN-WORLD CONTENT, AND YOUR ACCOUNT, STRICTLY ON AN "AS IS" BASIS, AND HEREBY EXPRESSLY DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES OR CONDITIONS OF ANY KIND, WRITTEN OR ORAL, EXPRESS, IMPLIED OR STATUTORY, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION ANY IMPLIED WARRANTY OF TITLE, NONINFRINGEMENT, MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:48]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Geneko Nemeth|Geneko Nemeth]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Not responsibility, warrenty.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:48]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ... that is't an inalienable right of an OS dev...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:CPU Core|CPU Core]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i cant hear Joe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Geneko Nemeth|Geneko Nemeth]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Also, warrenty is usually only offered with a suppot contract.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:49]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] [ angry crosstalk]''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:49]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: we're running a business, supporting a large community of users.,..''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It's not an unalienable right, but it's something that the GPL guarantees. You can't limit the GPL like that without violating the GPL.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:CPU Core|CPU Core]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|oh switching sim fixed no voice issue
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Geneko Nemeth|Geneko Nemeth]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm not asking you not to ban viewers.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kyrah Abattoir|Kyrah Abattoir]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the only time LL has a say is when we connect to your grid, and then only the user is responsible
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Vegas Silverweb|Vegas Silverweb]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ooh a strawman argument :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|But the TPV devs must take all liability?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:49]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: It's a different deal than an OS dev who writes code for phigning passwords and says I shouldn't have to take responsibility...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:49]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|some of us want to write code that *helps* your business
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:CPU Core|CPU Core]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|this sim i cant hear a thing
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zarutian Morpork|Zarutian Morpork]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I have seen that clause or something like it in all software all i have come across
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:50]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] (unknown) one reasonfor NO WARRANTY is free/empty pockets/lower obstacle to giving away good stuff...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That is not the point. The TPV policy states that you are legal liable for bugs! Or whatever reason some SL user decides to go sue us for!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ron Ghostaltar|Ron Ghostaltar]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|You're lumping all Devs, Malicious and Legit, together the way the current policy is written
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kyrah Abattoir|Kyrah Abattoir]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|by trying to solve an ant infestation problem you're pulling out the cannon and will lose the whole floor of the house in the process.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:50]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Thickbrick Sleaford|Thickbrick Sleaford]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|No, that's not what the tpv sec 7 says.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Geneko Nemeth|Geneko Nemeth]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|....
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:51]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Angela Talamasca: I htink the TPV devs don't make any sense to me. Latif: no, no, no. Angela: you're responsible for what you develop, what's the problem...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:51]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|LL ToS, section 10.2 LINDEN LAB PROVIDES THE SERVICE, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION THE LINDEN SOFTWARE, THE WEBSITES, THE SERVERS, THE LINDEN IN-WORLD CONTENT, AND YOUR ACCOUNT, STRICTLY ON AN "AS IS" BASIS, AND HEREBY EXPRESSLY DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES OR CONDITIONS OF ANY KIND, WRITTEN OR ORAL, EXPRESS, IMPLIED OR STATUTORY, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION ANY IMPLIED WARRANTY OF TITLE, NONINFRINGEMENT, MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:51]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Latif: LL disclaims _their_ responsibililty. Also, would be nice if the TPV said what it meant.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kyrah Abattoir|Kyrah Abattoir]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|because the gpl say that we are NOT LIABLE IN ANY WAY
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|IF THIS IS NOT GOING TO FIXED, I WILL HAVE NO OTHER OPTION THEN TO STOP CODING
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:52]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Angela: what's the problem with responsiblity for your code? Latif: it's not just your code. it's "all features"....''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Evan Hush|Evan Hush]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ddwas everyone kicked?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Hydrogen2 Oxygen|Hydrogen2 Oxygen]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yeah
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Hydrogen2 Oxygen|Hydrogen2 Oxygen]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Sim crashed
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:52]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Johan Neddings|Johan Neddings]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|No, the sims got restarted it seems
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:52]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] ....not obvious, agree many people....''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:52]
| colspan="2"|''Tillie?Ariantho: it says "OR DISTRIBUTE".. just remove THAT and all is well.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Geneko Nemeth|Geneko Nemeth]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|No, I think just removing "or distribute" will not work
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:53]
| colspan="2"|''Tillie?Ariantho: or make it "... code that you develop and distribute ..."''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:53]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Angela: I've followed the thread, you OS devs are irresponsible whiners.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Gooden Uggla|Gooden Uggla]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|wtf?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:53]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Johan Neddings|Johan Neddings]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Blondin ?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Johan Neddings|Johan Neddings]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Did Joe try to restart the sims in order to get voice back ?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Gooden Uggla|Gooden Uggla]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|whos the female voice?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:54]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: the problem is that no coder is perfect''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:54]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: bugs crop up''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zarutian Morpork|Zarutian Morpork]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|this is getting nowhere
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kyrah Abattoir|Kyrah Abattoir]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the LL viewer code is already covered under the GPL license wich specifically free the developper of any liability .
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Machiel Menges|Machiel Menges]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|when YOU develope. NOT what linden develope
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:54]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: now, if you're being paid it's fine to accept liability''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Geneko Nemeth|Geneko Nemeth]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif, your mic is overloading.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:54]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Angela Talamasca: it says YOUR CODE is what you're responsible for. Latif: nobody else makes this liability claim, it's not how the industyr works.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Arabella Steadham|Arabella Steadham]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|look in active speakers to see the speaker
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Jacek Antonelli|Jacek Antonelli]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That section of the policy is ambiguous. There are multiple ways to read it. That is the problem.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:54]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: but if you're not being paid and the license allows infinite copies..........''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:54]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: well, you'd have to be downright dumb to accept liability''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I have to weigh in on the side of Lance and Latif here. ;P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Machiel Menges|Machiel Menges]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|YOU DEVELOPE
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ron Ghostaltar|Ron Ghostaltar]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|YOU JUST SAID THE PROBLEM! DEVELOPE -AND-DISTRIBUTE.. its worded with OR instead of AND
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:54]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zarutian Morpork|Zarutian Morpork]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|text chat would indeed better (no cross talk)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:54]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Latif: JUST LISTEN. it says you're responsible for features&code you develop OR DISTRIBUTE''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Tillie?Ariantho: Angela|Tillie?Ariantho: Angela]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|you just made it an "AND distribute" in YOUR words, but the documents says "OR distribute", thats quite a difference here.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Gavin Hird|Gavin Hird]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|distribute is word you need to pay attention to
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Evan Hush|Evan Hush]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|you are responsible ... yeah thats not right
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:55]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Latif: so what it says is, if I distribute snowglobe, I'm responsible for all features in that binary!!!''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Robin Cornelius|Robin Cornelius]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|This is what some of my changes addressed, suble word issues
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kyrah Abattoir|Kyrah Abattoir]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it still would conflict with the GPL
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:55]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|EVEN IF IT SAID "what you add" (it doesn't but that is not the point). It is not acceptable to be legally liably for any open source written by developers.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:55]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: let's move forward... i believe it's an area we need to work on.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:56]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: the other area is, I believe, 7D?''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Brookston Holiday|Brookston Holiday]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|| vs ||
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I still believe that the TPV violates the GPL's no warranty clause. Which is fine, but I think you're going to have to use a modified BSD license or something instead of the GPL.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Geneko Nemeth|Geneko Nemeth]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Aleric: Unless they are paid to suppot it.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Thickbrick Sleaford|Thickbrick Sleaford]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the big issue is the TPV forces us to agree to liability. It doesn't matter what part of the code it is.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Ceawlin++
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:CPU Core|CPU Core]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i was so close to going into that sim lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: striking off "or distribute" is essential, yes, but it's only one part of the problem.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Vegas Silverweb|Vegas Silverweb]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|actually the GPL trumps it - the GPL lets you ignore any additional encumberances on something released under the GPL
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:56]
| colspan="2"|''Jagga Meredith see water where people used to be''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Boroondas Gupte|Boroondas Gupte]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|does "that your develop" specify the features etc. or the viewers?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Geneko Nemeth|Geneko Nemeth]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|s/suppot/support/
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Vegas++
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:WhiteStar Magic|WhiteStar Magic]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|--- Anycode developed IN ADDITION to the Standard LL Viewer Source -- Is I believe was teh original Intent. But the Wording (Language) is teh primary issue.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:CPU Core|CPU Core]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|a sim all for me
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:CeeJay Tigerpaw|CeeJay Tigerpaw]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|You are responsible for all uses you make of Third-Party Viewers. If you are a Developer, you are responsible for all features, functionality, code, and content of Third-Party Viewers that you develop or distributYou are responsible for all uses you make of Third-Party Viewers. If you are a Developer, you are responsible for all features, functionality, code, and content of Third-Party Viewers that you develop or distribute.e.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:56]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and should be able to pass responsibility of the use of those features to the user
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|whitestar: exactly
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Jacek Antonelli|Jacek Antonelli]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yes, the wording is awkward
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:57]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Lance Corrimal: tries to describe a proposed change to 7A. Ceejay offers to post something regarding LL's intent to chat.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think people need to write specific diffs for what they want
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:CeeJay Tigerpaw|CeeJay Tigerpaw]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|You are responsible for all uses you make of Third-Party Viewers. If you are a Developer, you are responsible for all features, functionality, code, and content of Third-Party Viewers that you develop or distribute.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Evan Hush|Evan Hush]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i dont see this
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:57]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Ceejay, sorry....''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:CeeJay Tigerpaw|CeeJay Tigerpaw]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If you are a Developer, you are responsible for all features, functionality, code, and content that you develop, for Third-Party Viewers that you distribute.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Sodovan Torok|Sodovan Torok]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol, see how hard legal docs are :D:D
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Theodolite Wickentower|Theodolite Wickentower]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Me either...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Shout it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Gavin Hird|Gavin Hird]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|dont see it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Honey Fairweather|Honey Fairweather]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|can you read it out too please?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Don't see it...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Gavin Hird|Gavin Hird]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|shout it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:57]
| colspan="2"|''Zha Ewry shouts: shout it''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:57]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Ceejay continues to mumble abou5t cut-n-paste.... same words in different orders...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Evan Hush|Evan Hush]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|shout
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|We don't see it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|He's probably out of chat range.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:57]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:CPU Core|CPU Core]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i dont actually see Joe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I'm not going to support a company that abuses the open source community and screws the GPL intent over like this :/ ... I might still support some TPV, hoping that me being in the Netherlands will stop me from being sued out of common sense, but hell if I still want to give LL the copyright of my work ..
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:58]
| colspan="2"|''Jack Abraham shouts: Speak up CJ''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Krull Quar|Krull Quar]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joes back here I see him ?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Jacek Antonelli|Jacek Antonelli]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Specifically -- what does the clause "that you develop or distribute" apply to? Does it apply to the code, content, etc.? Or does it apply to "viewers"?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kyrah Abattoir|Kyrah Abattoir]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|wouldn't this conflict with the gpl be ground for a lawsuit from the free software foundation?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Evan Hush|Evan Hush]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i could not hear
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:58]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...we have some consensus around that, it seems...?''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:CPU Core|CPU Core]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|oh there he is
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Boroondas Gupte|Boroondas Gupte]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|indeed
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Ceejay also works
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|'s
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:58]
| colspan="2"|''Gavin Hird shouts: we cant all see it - yopu need to shout the text''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:58]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Theodolite Wickentower|Theodolite Wickentower]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I got "taht is correct" blasting my ear out... but not what the fellow was reading or saying...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Evan Hush|Evan Hush]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|agreed
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The GPL simply doesn't allow you to impose further restrictions on *developers*, beyond applicable law. If you want to be GPL-compliant and continue to use the GPL, you cannot impose those restrictions on GPL developers.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:59]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Ceejay: simple misstatement in TPV. Lance COrrimal: continues to describe changes to 7A....''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine++.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:59]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: I hear you, that is not the intent, celarly.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Blondin Linden|Blondin Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Time Check: 1 minute
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:59]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Ceejay: w.r.t. 7D, the 1st sentence is redundant with 7A...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:59]
| colspan="2"|''vivox speakerphone 0.95 whispers: Speakerphone enabled, your conversations can be heard! Position = <262653.75000, 30.00000, -259843.25000>''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [12:59]
| colspan="2"|''vivox speakerphone 0.95 whispers: To dial in, call 1-301-789-0017 with access code 787705''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [12:59]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|We need to extend this because of the lost time from the simulator crashes and such. <_<
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:00]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Ceejay: ...omit 1st sentence of 7D?''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:00]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: I think that's right.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zarutian Morpork|Zarutian Morpork]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I agree with Ceawlin
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Boroondas Gupte|Boroondas Gupte]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|\o/
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|What about the NORMAL :
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE AUTHOR AND CONTRIBUTORS ``AS IS''
??? AND ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED
??? TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A
??? PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHOR
??? OR CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL,
??? SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT
??? LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:00]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...a reasonable change and one I'd support. 7D would simply say "LL isn't responsible ..." and leave responsibility stuff in 7A only.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:00]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Theodolite Wickentower|Theodolite Wickentower]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|KISS principal is good...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:00]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Latif: why need 7A when we have 7C?''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That was from the GPL
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Don't screw with that.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Evan Hush|Evan Hush]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|from a legal stand point she is correct
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Agreed. Everyone here agrees 100% that LL is not responsible for TPVs. No other qualifications are required.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:01]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Any references to "Developer" must be REMOVED from the TPV policy
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:02]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Angela: [inaudible] LL lsaying "we're not resoponsible" seems uncontgroversial; people seem to dislike the stronger "...but YOU are"''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Abriel Pleides|Abriel Pleides]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|not responsible for the viewer yes, but should be responsible for removal of the viewer
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Merov Linden|Merov Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|no, LL give no warranty, it's different
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Aleric++
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kyrah Abattoir|Kyrah Abattoir]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|no programmer will ever take responsibility for code they write, it would be opening themselve for lawsuits everytime something has a bug , etc...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Evan Hush|Evan Hush]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yes thats what people are saying i believe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Theodolite Wickentower|Theodolite Wickentower]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Like v2?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe, that's not what the TPV says, though. >_>
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zarutian Morpork|Zarutian Morpork]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|why DDOS when null routing does the same damage?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Evan Hush|Evan Hush]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kyrah Abattoir|Kyrah Abattoir]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|nobody ever sui gun factories, yet prisons are full of gun users...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:02]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: 7A and 7C are a little different. If you design a DDOS, for instance, then you ahve chosen to create a feature that needs a statement of responsibilty attached to it.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Thickbrick Sleaford|Thickbrick Sleaford]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That is illegal regardless, no need to have that in the ToS
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Boroondas Gupte|Boroondas Gupte]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|section 7 doesn't mention intent
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:02]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Evan Hush|Evan Hush]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|agreed
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:03]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Latif: but NOWARRANTY.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ddos has NOTHING to do with GPL software (or not).
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|What about the possible GPL violation by overriding the GPL's no warranty clause?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:03]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: I've heard it loud&clear, will take this feedback as articulated on Robin's wiki pagte, as well as the transcript...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:03]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...and see what we can do quickly over the next week....''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|ddos has ALWAYS been possible to get people behind bars.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:03]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: there'll be another meeting next Tues, will try to make it more stable technically...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Latif: you issue is moot about the no warranty... just supply one... the TPV can't nullify yours
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|skype group conf?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Theodolite Wickentower|Theodolite Wickentower]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Would this be at the same time?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Flimsey Freenote|Flimsey Freenote]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Is impressed with Joe Linden's ability to listen and address these issues
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:03]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ....and will try to get feedback on whether the proposed changes are in the right dfirection....''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:03]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe - How long do you expect to give us for legal review, before the policy goes into place?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:CPU Core|CPU Core]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It seems to me that LL should be telling Developers that they should write their own viewer policy but they should probably also provide a template policy for them similar to the one for their own
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|JB++.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: Just scratch "developers" from the document, otherwise it's almost impossible to be GPL-compliant. A developer becomes a USER when he connects, so all your restrictions apply.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:04]
| colspan="2"|''VISTA AO SUPASEXIANIMATED v1.2: Could not find animation 'APRSITANIM1'''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:04]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: .What I'm not interested in doing is making wholesale changes in a policy that was gthroughly vetted.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:CPU Core|CPU Core]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|thats why they defer liability to the deceloper so you can do the same
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|morgaine: +++++
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yes, we need to examine the GPL issues before this ends, IMO. >_>
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:04]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: But instead address specifics of liability for things you didn't write....''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Abriel Pleides|Abriel Pleides]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|intent needs to be put in
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Master Starship|Master Starship]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Evan Hush|Evan Hush]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yeah lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:04]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: Are there any other major issues with the policy we want to discuss?''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:04]
| colspan="2"|''VISTA AO SUPASEXIANIMATED v1.2: Could not find animation 'APRSITANIM1'.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Geneko Nemeth|Geneko Nemeth]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Also responsibility should not be able to be interpreted as warrenty/liability.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Boroondas Gupte|Boroondas Gupte]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think a complete rewrite should be held open as an option.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Can someone who can speak comprehensible english ask this in voice, please? :P
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:04]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yes....
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:05]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: I'm willing to stick around.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Thickbrick Sleaford|Thickbrick Sleaford]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Major issue: it needs to be readable by a non-lawyer.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Abriel Pleides|Abriel Pleides]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the matter of a persons intent needs to be taken into account
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ron Hubbard|Ron Hubbard]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|how does this policy affect scriptable clients?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Evan Hush|Evan Hush]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|can you repeaty
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Agreed with Techwolf.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:05]
| colspan="2"|''VISTA AO SUPASEXIANIMATED v1.2: Could not find animation 'APRSITANIM1'''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:05]
| colspan="2"|''VISTA AO SUPASEXIANIMATED v1.2: Could not find animation 'APRSITANIM1'.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:05]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Techwolf: let's try to have the rewrite not violate the GPL...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:05]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: it's our position that we haven't, at all.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:05]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: What we have done is spearate and orthogonal to the GPL license.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:05]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|The GPL says: IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHOR
??? OR CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL,
??? SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT
??? LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES; LOSS OF
??? USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:06]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: we're not int5erested in _creating_ a conflict, but we have not done so.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It doesn't matter what we -believe-, because we're not lawyers. These are legal documents, and wee need to have someone who can make a legal interpretation look at it. >_>
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:06]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Techwolf: separation of users and devs....''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:WhiteStar Magic|WhiteStar Magic]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|+1 TechWolf
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Boroondas Gupte|Boroondas Gupte]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|maybe even seperate it into two seperate policies
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:06]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: to restate, we have consulted with a wide range of experts in OS licensing.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: we accept that your intent is not to violate the GPL, but the WORDS are in conflict.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Geneko Nemeth|Geneko Nemeth]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaine++
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:06]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i did
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:06]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: (no names). it was indeed a legal engagemet to review the doc by experts in the field. Not FSF on this, but well known experts.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zarutian Morpork|Zarutian Morpork]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Morgaline++
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i actually contacted the FSF on the tpv
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:07]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: So...morgaine, you've been very consistent with that system,b ut I won't debate it with you.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and according to their licensing expert the TPV policy is not conflicting the gpl
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:07]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: several people contacted FSF...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|since the policy concerns logging in to a service, the GPL doesn't directly cover the TPV in the first place (most on Slashdot have suggested this)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ron Ghostaltar|Ron Ghostaltar]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: If you can I recommend visiting the FSF with this TPV and any changes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Geneko Nemeth|Geneko Nemeth]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|He suggested "get a lawyer".
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Geneko Nemeth|Geneko Nemeth]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(RMS)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:07]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I've seen one Judge decide by the letter of the law and another Judge take the same case and judge by the intent.... don't tell us what a judge will do either way
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:08]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] theory: TPV is about service, not about code, therefore no conflict.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:CPU Core|CPU Core]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|here is a chance for voicing the parts that are in conflict and getting a real answer what they mean from joe.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Theodolite Wickentower|Theodolite Wickentower]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|My question on the lawyers... were they well versed in the technology? From an engineering background I've had to rewrite too many legaleeze documents when the lawyer was not familiar with the technology.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kyrah Abattoir|Kyrah Abattoir]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so that means no liability for developpers, only for users, right?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:08]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|And we're certain that any lawyer/judge in their right mind will interpret it that way?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:08]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Techwolf: what if someone connects MY code to LL? HAve they made me responsible???''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Da5id Kronfeld|Da5id Kronfeld]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Err... who knows *what* a judge is gonna say
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Abriel Pleides|Abriel Pleides]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|this is why the matter of intent needs to be put into the tpvp
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Boroondas Gupte|Boroondas Gupte]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so rip out the networking code?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I am unhappy with the statement "We consulted experts on the GPL, but will not reveal who". Experts from Microsoft perhaps? Very clearly the view of the GPL that was used for the TPV is not the conventional one.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lonely Bluebird|Lonely Bluebird]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|How can a developer who has never connected have agreed to the third party viewer policy?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Does that mean you CAN be legally liable for damages for written code, as soon as some OTHER user connects to the grid and does damage using some accidental bug?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Evan Hush|Evan Hush]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yes
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|CeeJay++
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:09]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Ceejay: what if someone takes my pre-bug-fix code and abuses it?''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zarutian Morpork|Zarutian Morpork]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so the question is: "is the script kiddie responsible or the tool writer?" ;)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Thickbrick Sleaford|Thickbrick Sleaford]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|If they didn't agree to the TPV agreement (i.e. quit SL), they are free to develop whatever copybot they want.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:09]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ron Hubbard|Ron Hubbard]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|can someone confirm that we can completely exit this agreement by canceling our second life accounts and moving to another platform like opensim?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:10]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Ceejay: NO WARANTY just reflects that small-timers don't have the resources to defend themselves in court.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kyrah Abattoir|Kyrah Abattoir]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well all it means is that from now on third party viewer developpers will have to keep their SL and real identity hidden...
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Gareth: SL-Ron|Hubbard|Gareth: SL-Ron|Hubbard]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|how would they hold you to it?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:10]
| colspan="2"|''Merov Linden notes that MS does the same "no warranty" claims''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:10]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Ceejay: I hope you remember we're mostly good guys here,.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:10]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: we do.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:10]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: does anyone know how they would be able to?''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zarutian Morpork|Zarutian Morpork]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Ron: that is perhaps the soloution
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: that "tool" cannot be a wildcard.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:10]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: it's about giving us a tool to use against the real bad guys.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ron Hubbard|Ron Hubbard]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Zarutian: i would like confirmation
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:10]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Merov, every software compeny in the world does that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Evan Hush|Evan Hush]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but thattoolk as you said an be used in any instance
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:11]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: If it came to arbitration or a judge, we belive the policy as written would clearly state our intent.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:11]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: it's certainly not about holding you accountable for bugs that cause inventory loss, for instanc.e''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|*sigh*
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:CPU Core|CPU Core]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|wow Ron hubbard is here???
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zarutian Morpork|Zarutian Morpork]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|also please note that clickthrough licesences and agreements arent legal agreements in some juristictions in the world
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:11]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: That's so far from th eintent, that it's hard to know where to begin.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|joe. can u add that to the tos?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:WhiteStar Magic|WhiteStar Magic]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|-loginuri http:// SL would have to be blocked in code is designed NOT connect to LL, to prevent Overide in the Binary, BUT the Source could be Modified by an external entirty which transfers that liability
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe: if you WRITE the intent in the TPV, all will be well. But a judge will interpret the WORDS of the TPV, not the INTENT.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ichi Merit|Ichi Merit]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|no... he is dead
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:11]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Boroondas Gupte|Boroondas Gupte]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Can you guarantee that that tool [TPVp] will never ever be abused by Linden Lab, even if LL changes owners? If not, it should be formulated so it cannot possibly be abused.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:CeeJay Tigerpaw|CeeJay Tigerpaw]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|What Latha posted for my statement is not quite correct: What I said was that small-time developers do not have resources to test and debug as thoroughly as we might wish.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kyrah Abattoir|Kyrah Abattoir]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|well i do not sign a white page personally
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:CPU Core|CPU Core]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|hes not dead hes sitting right here
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Angela: sorry but wildcards don't work here.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kyrah Abattoir|Kyrah Abattoir]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|or blank checks for that matter
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Serenity Rosencrans|Serenity Rosencrans]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|it sometimes happen
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:12]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Latif: then just put that in the plicy! Angela: they can't put all that stuff in there, get real.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Serenity Rosencrans|Serenity Rosencrans]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|*happens
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ichi Merit|Ichi Merit]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|did he bring Tom Cruise with him?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:12]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] ...tool.....deep pockets....hobbyists w/o financial resources....''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Abriel Pleides|Abriel Pleides]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the more grey areas there are leaves too much area for broad interpretations
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:12]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|at the least, they could say that deliberately writing code that violates the TPV is a big no-no
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:13]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] ...will just stop developing...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:CPU Core|CPU Core]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|not sure.. hes hard to see in a crowd
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Will Linden Lab take legal action (court) against developers that write export code and do not distribute that?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:13]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Latif: so now I, as developer of a helpful text client, have to hire a lawyer? Crap.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think one thing people are concerned about, is if a malicious user finds an exploit via a bug in a non-malicious viewer from a non-malicious dev. The dev doesn't want to be held responsible.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Hehe, yep
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Evan Hush|Evan Hush]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so true
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:13]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|(heh)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:14]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] USA is litigious...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:14]
| colspan="2"|''Tillie?Ariantho: Why not put the tiny details in there? Every tine detail got into the TOS, too. And as we have to accept that TPV thingy or not connect to SL, every tiny detail should b''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:14]
| colspan="2"|''Tillie?Ariantho: e clear in here, too. No?''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:14]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Angela: people are saying OMG I'm scared...such a huge overrreaction...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kyrah Abattoir|Kyrah Abattoir]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|so we basically have to take LindenLabs "word" that they won't use theyr super broad policy against us?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|This is why you cannot even try to override the GPL "NO WARRANTY" clause. It's essential.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|not to mention that a text-ony viewer that connects to SL is required to add a web-browser service just to show the login screen
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ron Hubbard|Ron Hubbard]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i would like a concrete answer on how we can keep libOpenMetaverse out of this TPV policy completely. cancel my second life account and disable connecting to SL by default?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:14]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Da5id Kronfeld|Da5id Kronfeld]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Nothing the the TPV prevents devs from being sued regardless =/
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ron Hubbard|Ron Hubbard]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|is there anything else i need to do to make sure i can continue to distribute the software under an unmodified BSD license including the no warranyty disclaimer?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|d[Transcript] Angela: ...script kiddies.... tools against script kiddies....
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Da5id Kronfeld|Da5id Kronfeld]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|anyone can sue anyone
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Gavin Hird|Gavin Hird]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|you dont
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:15]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Latif: script kiddies don't read it., it just harms the conscientious people.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Gavin Hird|Gavin Hird]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and besides national legislation comes into play the moment you want to sue someone
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:15]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: to sum up...''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think it's very clear here that Angela does not represent the views of the TPV developer community here.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:15]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: 7A, some things that makes sense... and 7D.....''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:15]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:CPU Core|CPU Core]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the question is how do developers think this new policy will affect them and then get an answer from Joe if this is the case :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kyrah Abattoir|Kyrah Abattoir]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|well we can take our beads and focuse solely on opensim too.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:16]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: some valued devs are going to still have to make a personal choice whether LL intends to sue people who clearly intend no harm....''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zarutian Morpork|Zarutian Morpork]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|signaling intent or not isnt the question here
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It appears to me, Joe, that another user can sue the developer over bugs that cause losses....
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:16]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Latif: it's not just LL, it opens us up to everybody else too.;''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Agree with Latif
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:16]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aimee Linden|Aimee Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|the you need to take the stseps to mitigate that, we can't do it for you
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aimee Linden|Aimee Linden]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|*steps
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Evan Hush|Evan Hush]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|What Lance said.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Abriel Pleides|Abriel Pleides]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|tpv dev's need to be cleared of liability from bugs in LL source code
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:17]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Lance describes a bug that causes hard drive loss; don't want to increase dev liabilituy for this.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:17]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Well, in all honesty, the person better learn data redundancy if they only store their tehsis in their my documents, hehe.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:17]
| colspan="2"|''Tillie?Ariantho: I think there a two choices for LL, quite simple. :) a) you change that and have a happy community. b) you dont: all delevopers are off to elsewhere. Take the red pill o''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:17]
| colspan="2"|''Tillie?Ariantho: r the blue pill. :->''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:18]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Angela: if a litigious person exists, they'll do it anywah. it's moot.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Serenity Rosencrans|Serenity Rosencrans]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|but the TPV gives them extra teeth to do it
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Theodolite Wickentower|Theodolite Wickentower]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|RL calls.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|This is why Marty Linden was so right --- the user of a TPV is responsible from all problems derived from using a TPV.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lonely Bluebird|Lonely Bluebird]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Tillie: Do not speak for anyone but yourself - ALL DEVELOPERS are not going to go off elsewhere.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Serenity Rosencrans|Serenity Rosencrans]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|gives users teeth to attack developers
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|what about making it so only paid users can build and sale items will that not help a lot of this problems ?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:18]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Fleep: what's new is , LL says "we're not responsible but devs are"''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Agree with Fleep.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Tillie?Ariantho: Lonely|Tillie?Ariantho: Lonely]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|What I have seen: most are. minus you then. ^^
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Gavin Hird|Gavin Hird]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|to be subject to a suit like that, the lisence must be upheld under your national legislation
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:18]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Thickbrick Sleaford|Thickbrick Sleaford]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|That's ok for LL to say it, but not OK for them to requires us to sign that statment.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kyrah Abattoir|Kyrah Abattoir]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|yeah like if Hekley & Koch was responsible of what peoples do with their guns
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|People still mix up responsibility for content with resposibility for software
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:19]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Latif: concern is, 7A is inconsistent with NO WARRANTY.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Da5id Kronfeld|Da5id Kronfeld]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It would be simple to drop the bit about the dev being responsible
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Electron Electricteeth|Electron Electricteeth]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|It seems that if LL can release themselves of responsibility, we should have the same right.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yes, that seems the crux of the issue
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Gavin Hird|Gavin Hird]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and i many of the European countries, the policy will not be even be recognized by the courts
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I think it would be sufficient to just forget making developers liable for their code, but instead make the user responsible for what they do with a viewer, bug exploit or not.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:19]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Lance: says TpV is liable for whatever anybody does with that viewer.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:RaptonX Zorger|RaptonX Zorger]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|xstorm: I would think ones with payment info on file would help that
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Software and Content is hand and hand
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:19]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: thank you all, very helpful, you've been very clear.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:19]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Yep. It's clearly unbalanced.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|More next week?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:20]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: my interest is to see if we can find a good place for us all to end up.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thank you Joe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Abriel Pleides|Abriel Pleides]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|same time next week?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kyrah Abattoir|Kyrah Abattoir]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|drama?!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|This was actually pretty low drama all thigns considered
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Aeonix Aeon|Aeonix Aeon]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Liability for content created with a browser isn't appropriate because it's the same as liability for things made with say.. Dreamweaver for normal websites
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:20]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: That's what I wanted to accomplish, and I wanted to have this conversation....''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Lance Corrimal|Lance Corrimal]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|drama?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I don't see any flaming puitchfork props
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|;)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ichi Merit|Ichi Merit]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|need more drama
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Gavin Hird|Gavin Hird]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|drama?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:20]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: So....same time next week is my current plan....''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|what drama lol
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Cisop Sixpence|Cisop Sixpence]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks Joe.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thank you Joe :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:20]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: ...see what we can do over 7 days....''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Robin Cornelius|Robin Cornelius]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks Joe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I see no drama
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Hydrogen2 Oxygen|Hydrogen2 Oxygen]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thank you Joe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Abriel Pleides|Abriel Pleides]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|thanks joe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Tillie?Ariantho: Gavin|Tillie?Ariantho: Gavin]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|true. But in the end wont help you being european. they maybe may not be able to sue you, but you are off the grid then anyway.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zarutian Morpork|Zarutian Morpork]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|this was rather constrainted, little drama
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Geneko Nemeth|Geneko Nemeth]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|There was drama all right, I was in a bit of drama too. But yes, it could have been much, much worse.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Boroondas Gupte|Boroondas Gupte]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks for listening!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks for your time, all Lindens. :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|and with Payment data on file it will help a lot of this mess
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:20]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] [thanks joe, gj joe...]''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Flimsey Freenote|Flimsey Freenote]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|good job Joe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:20]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks for the time, pateience, and ears
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks Joe.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Hydrogen2 Oxygen|Hydrogen2 Oxygen]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Later
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks for your time Joe & Lindens!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|thanks joe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Joe - will you give us reasonable time after any updates to the policy, for legal review?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Johan Neddings|Johan Neddings]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Thanks and see you next week :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Machiel Menges|Machiel Menges]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|thanks joe ?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|A reminder: the conversation continues in AW Groupies.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:21]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: Thanks, be back in touch soon. Over and out.''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Opensource Obscure|Opensource Obscure]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|thanks and bye everybody
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:CPU Core|CPU Core]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|bye joe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Gavin Hird|Gavin Hird]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|cheers
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Zarutian Morpork|Zarutian Morpork]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|thanks for the meeting
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:21]
| colspan="2"|''RaptonX Zorger is glad he has payment info on file''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Machiel Menges|Machiel Menges]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|crash drama
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Kyrah Abattoir|Kyrah Abattoir]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i guess they just didn't hear what they wanted to -_-
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Johan Neddings|Johan Neddings]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|K, laterz all :)
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|I saw no drama. This was a very calm conversation.
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|nod
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Opensource Obscure|Opensource Obscure]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|are you going to make drama about drama mention by Joe?
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:21]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Angela: I didn't see too much drama! ....general agreement, we did OK today.....''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Opensource Obscure|Opensource Obscure]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|XD
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:21]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Evan Hush|Evan Hush]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|haha
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:CPU Core|CPU Core]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|stage invasion!
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Robin Roar|Robin Roar]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|Crashing drama maybe
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:22]
| colspan="2"|''Gareth: who wants the recording?''
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#F0F0F0;"
| [13:22]
| style="white-space:nowrap;"|[[User:Evan Hush|Evan Hush]]:
| style="white-space:normal;"|i do
|- style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#FFFFFF;"
| [13:22]
| colspan="2"|''[Voice Transcript] Transcript ends. Random chitchat begins. Cheers, bye from Latha.''
|}