Second Life Wiki - User contributions [en]

AW Groupies

2011-02-08T20:11:50Z

Saijanai Kuhn: /* 2011 meetings */

=Purpose=
Serious technical discussion about Linden Lab's [[Architecture Working Group|Architecture Working Group (AWG)]]. "AW Groupies" is an unofficial, Resident-operated group, though most (all?) members also participate in the AWG.

Invite only (apply in-world to [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]), but the criterion is simple. Show up and contribute to the AWG, or on the Wiki, or on SL-Dev or in the [irc://irc.freenode.net/#pyogp irc channel] for the [[Pyogp/Client_Lib|Python test client]].

=Activities=
The [[AW_Groupies#Architecture_Working_Group_meetings|main AWG meeting]] is held annually or semi-annually.
We now [[AW_Groupies#In-World_Meetings|meet up to 8 times a week in-world]], counting AW Groupies meeting, Enus's office hours, and the [[Pyogp#In_World_Meetings|pygop daily meetings]].

Our main focus these days is on the [[Open Grid Protocol]], the [[Open_Grid_Public_Beta]] and the [[Pyogp|pyogp Python test harness]] for protocol testing.

Also members are quite active on the wiki and in the SLDEV mailing list.

A public SVN repository is open to all AW Groupies members here:
* http://openmv.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/archwg/

Contact anyone with root on openmv.org for an account if you are in the AW Groupies group in-world.

==Architecture Working Group meetings==
* [[AWG_Meeting_1|AWG I annual meeting transcript, participants' responses, etc]]
* [[AWG_Meeting_2|AWG II annual meeting transcript, video, participants' responses, etc]]

==In-World Meetings==
===AW Groupies meeting===
Weekly meeting times are:

* '''Tuesdays''' ------ 9:30 AM SLT (weekly AWG meeting)

1st - 3rd Tuesdays of the month at [http://slurl.com/secondlife/ThorneBridgeTown/156/129/25 Zha's IBM Island at ThorneBridgeTown]

4th Tuesday of the month at [http://www.osgrid.org/elgg/index.php OSGrid] which you can access by using the login URI http://osgrid.org:8002. See the [http://www.osgrid.org/elgg/index.php Main OSGrid page] for more info or read the [http://www.osgrid.org/docs/instructions.htm instructions to log in] for help. Look for the region "Dahlia AWG" for the meeting!

* ------------------ Noon SLT [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies#OpenSim__meeting| Open Sim Meeting]

Meetings are scheduled via the "[http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com SL AW Groupies" google calendar]" (though the above schedule is generally more accurate).

* [http://www.google.com/calendar/feeds/pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic XML]
* [http://www.google.com/calendar/ical/pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics ICal]
* Calendar ID: pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4@group.calendar.google.com
* [http://www.google.com/calendar/render?cid=pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com Add to your Google Calendar]

====Meeting Agendas====

Each meeting should have an agenda --- which will be distributed via
* google calendar entry
* in-world notice to the SL "AW Groupies" group
* the [[AW Groupies In-World Meeting Agenda]] wiki page

===OpenSim meeting===
* Tuesdays/Saturdays noon SLT, at Wright Plaza sim in OSGrid. [http://osgrid.org/index.php?page=home&btn=1 Registration Page]

Set [[Client_parameters|client command line options]] to:
:-loginuri http://osgrid.org:8002
:-loginpage http://osgrid.org/loginscreen.php
:-helperuri http://osgrid.org/

===Chat Logs===

Chat logs of the in-world meetings are published and accessible via the links below:

====2007 meetings====
:* September: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/2007-09-28 | 28]]
:* October: [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-01 | 1]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-05 | 5]] [[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2007_Oct_09|9 --Zero's office]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-16| 16]]
:* November: [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-06 | 6]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-13 | 13]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-20| 20]]
====2008 meetings====
:* January: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-01-08|08]]
:*February: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-02-19|19]]
:*April: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-08|08]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-22|22]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-29|29]]
:*May: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-05-20|20]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-05-27|27]]
:*June: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-03|03]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-10|10]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-17|17]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-24|24]]
:*July: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-01|01]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-08| 08]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-15|15]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-22|22]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-29|29]]
:*August: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-05|05]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-12|12]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-19|19]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-26|26]]
:* September [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-09|9]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-16|16]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-23|23]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-30|30]]
:* October [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-07|7]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-14|14]] [[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_October_14|14 --Zero's O.H.]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-28|28]]
:* November [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-11-11|11]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-11-18|18]]
:* December [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-09|9]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-16|16]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-23|23]]
====2009 meetings====
:*January [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-06|6]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-13|13]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-20|20]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-27|27]]
:*February [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-03|3]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-10|10]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-17|17]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-24|24]]
:*March [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-03-03|3]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-03-10|10]]
:*April [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-07|7]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-14|14]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-28|28]]
:*June [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-06-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-06-16|16]]
:*July [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-07-21|21]]
:*September [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-09-15|15]]
:*October [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-10-20|20]]
====2010 meetings====
:*March [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-03-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-03-09|9]]
:*April [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/JoeLindenTPVBrownbag-2010-04-13|13joe]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-04-20|20joshua]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/JoeLindenTPVBrownbag-2010-04-20|20joe]]
:*May [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-05-04|04proxies]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-05-19|18meadhbh]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-05-25|25]]
:*June [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-06-01|04mojito]]
:*September [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/Nyx-OH-Meshes-2010-09-15|15NyxMeshes]]

====2011 meetings====
:*February [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2011-02-08|8]]

*
* [[MMOX#Chat_logs|MMOX chat logs]] -- in-world transcripts with non-SL/Opensim participants
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Grid_Interoperability_Chat_Logs All Grid Interoperability chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:AW_Groupies_Transcripts All AW Groupies chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Pyogp_Transcripts All Pyogp chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Open_Grid_Public_Beta_Transcripts All Open Grid Public Beta Transcripts]
*
* [[User:Zero_Linden#Transcripts_of_previous_office_hours|Zero Linden's Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Which_Linden|Which Linden's Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Enus_Linden| Enus Linden Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Whump_Linden| Whump Linden Office Hour Transcripts]]
*
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=chat+log OpenSim chat logs]
* [[Mono/2008-04-04 | mono beta meeting discussion of het-grid]]

(if you post chat logs, you might want to use the [[User:Dr_Scofield/logtransform|sllog2wiki perl script]] to turn them into a more readable wiki table format ready to copy & paste into the chat log page)

Chat logs of AWGroupies meetings should be summarized on the wiki.

==Viewpoint Advocacy Groups==

[[Viewpoint Advocacy Groups]] - groups to focus on specific requirements.
=== AWG-specific VAGs===

* [[Core Grid Services, Protocols, and Structures VAG]]
* [[Event Scalability VAG]]
* [[Geometry and Physics VAG]]
* [[Live Performances VAG]]
* [[Quality Assurance VAG]]
* [[Scalability VAG]]
=== AWG-related VAGs===
* [[Map_API_VAG]]
* [[Multi-Process Client VAG -- draft]]

=Work-In-Progress=

Work-in-progress wiki pages are architecture pages that are (as the name implies ;-)) work in progress. Once the group has reached consensus that a particular topic is "good-to-go" we'll graduate that page to the [[Architecture Working Group|main AWG page]].

==General Concerns==
* [[Scoping]]
* [[Architecture Working Group Glossary|Glossary]]
* [[Use Cases]]
===Open Grid Protocol (OGP)===
====Linden Pages====

====User Pages====

==Communications==
* [[Initial CAPS seed]]
* [[AWG initial flows]]
* [[AWG flows login]]

* [[Mudata]]
* [[Streamlet]]
===Documenting current protocols===
* [[Pyogp|Python test harness for OGP]]
** [[User:Which_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_May_22| Which Linden office hours 22 May 2008]]
====AWG and citizen pages====
* [[Current_login_protocols]]
* [[Current_Sim_Capabilities]]
* [[Example_protocol_code]]
* [[Hegemons_Login_Analysis#Very_simple_C.23__server]]
* [[User:Gareth_Ellison/Supergrid|Litesim grid interop]]
* [[EventQueueGet_CAP| Event Queue Get CAP]]

====Linden Lab pages====
* [[Service_Disruptions|"Satellite's Eye" view of the Second Life architecture from a service disruption POV]]
* [[Message_System_and_Capabilities]]
* [[Viewer_Authentication]]
* [[Viewer_Architecture]]
* [[Protocol]]
* [[LLSD]]
* [[Certified_HTTP_Escrow]]
* [[ImprovedInstantMessage]]
* [[Client_parameters|client command line parameters and stuff]]

====libsecondlife reference pages====
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Login Login page]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Protocol_%28network%29 Protocol page]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Category:Packets packets index]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Movement Movement]

====opensim reference pages====
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Grid_Architecture_Diagram opensim grid architecture diagram]
* [http://opensimulator.org/images/3/3c/OGS1Login_Sequence.jpg login diagram (same general sequence as current LL login)]

=== Future Protocols===
* [[Second_Life_Login_API_Strawman]]
:deprecated in favor of:
* [[Open Grid Protocol]]
** [[SLGOGP_Teleport_Strawman]]
*[[Architecture_Working_Group#Design_Documents | Ongoing next generation protocols documentation effort by Linden Lab]]

=== Possible future directions ===
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenID| OpenID A decentralized single sign-on system]
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yadis| Yardis A digital identity protocol]

==Asset Security and Trust==
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Dale_Innis/Asset_handling_in_OGP Asset Handling in OGP]
* [[Protecting content in an open grid]]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Infinity_Linden/OGP_Trust_Model OGP Trust Model]

==Scaling Issues==
* [[Brainstorming#ANALYSIS:_Region_Subdivision_as_a_scaling_method| Region Subdivision]]
* [[Brainstorming#ANALYSIS:_Scalability_through_reverse_proxies:_the_paravirtual_grid| Reverse Proxies]]
* [[AWG Scalability through per-resident subdivision of the Grid| Resident Subdivision]]
===Group IM===
* [[Message_Queue_Evaluation_Notes| Which Linden's message queue evaluation notes]]

==Other==
* [[Use_Cases#Extended_Capability_Clients|Extended Capability Clients]]

=Thinking-in-Progress=

* Have a look and contribute to the [[Brainstorming|brainstorming]] page.

* It's early days on the [[Multi-Process Client VAG -- draft]], but we would highly appreciate input to help with design choices and direction.
==Misc User Pages==
* Have an AWG idea? Don't know where in the wiki it should be indexed? Make sure that folks can find it by adding it to the [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:AW_Groupies_User_Pages AW_Groupies_User_Pages] Add: <nowiki>'[[Category:AW Groupies User Pages]]'</nowiki> to the end of your user page.

=External Resources=

Stuff of interest to or in connection with the [[AW Groupies]] or the [[Architecture Working Group]]:

* [[Developer_communication_tools|Developer Communication Tools (Linden Lab)]]
* [[SLDev|SLDev Main Page]]
* [[Open_Grid_Public_Beta]]
* [[Pyogp]] {Linden Labs/ AWG Python-based protocols testing library)
*
* [http://openmv.org/ OpenMetaverse Home]
**[http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Main_Page libsecondlife (libsl) homepage]
**[http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page opensim homepage]
**[http://openviewer.org openviewer homepage]
**[http://code.google.com/p/openmetaverse/wiki/SimianGrid SimianGrid]
*[http://www.osgrid.org OSGrid: open/non-profit OpenSim based grid]
* [http://www.realxtend.org/ realxtend homepage]
*
* [http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/22428.wss IBM PR re: AWG]

Latha's quick list of interop relevant VW sites, 3/30/2010
* http://tools.ietf.org/wg/vwrap/
* http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page
* http://openwonderland.org/
* http://www.realxtend.org/
* http://code.google.com/p/openmetaverse/wiki/SimianGrid
* http://www.opencobalt.org/
* http://www.solipsis.org/
* http://www.web3d.org/

==Second Life Viewers==
Various viewers compatible with Second Life.

::*Note: the "Derived 3rd-party clients" page includes a few non GPL viewers plus some hybrids. I'll try to come up with a better way to index this stuff. [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]
::*Yeah, that redirect of "Alternate_viewers" to "Downloads" is nuts, and the "Downloads" page itself seems to have to have a variety of things bundled together --- it needs splitting. But don't split it by license, that's precisely what I sought to eliminate in this section's re-org. It makes no sense to classify clients by license, since GPL'd clients don't necessarily have anything to do with Linden's code, just like BSD clients don't necessarily have anything to do with libomv. It does make sense to keep a list of Linden-derived clients though, since they're all more alike than not alike, and share both code and license encumbrance. [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]] 01:28, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

===Viewers based on the Linden Lab GPL code (C++)===

*[http://secondlife.com/support/downloads.php Main Second Life viewer/client]
:The main (official) Second Life viewer, produced by Linden Lab with the help of patches submitted by the community, and available for Linux, Mac and Windows.

*[[Snowglobe|Snowglobe]]

:A new version of the Second Life client in a public repository where Linden Lab permits direct committing from select community members alongside daily Linden work. There is also a new build system to keep this version continuously building when new submissions are received, with new builds available to everyone. This version will become available as an alternative Linden download alongside the main SL client, once it is sufficiently stable.

*[[Alternate_viewers|Derived 3rd-party clients]] (''currently links to a mixed "Downloads" page, to be fixed'')
:A large list of clients (not necessarily 3D) developed in the free and open-source community using GPL code from the above two official viewers.

===Viewers based on the libomv/libsl code (C#)===

* [http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/idealistviewer/ Idealist]
:IdealistViewer is a new cross-platform viewer based on the Irrlicht engine, PrimMesher, and LibOpenmetaverse. It can either use the Second Life protocols as provided by LibOpenmetaverse or the MXP protocol. Since it uses the Irrlicht engine it can simultaneously display prim/sculptie content and objects and animated meshes/avatars from a wide variety of sources such as Collada, .OBJ, DirectX, and Blitz3D files. It is not derived from the LL GPL viewer and is made available under BSD style licensing. It is designed to work with OpenSimulator but may also work with Second Life. It is written in the C# language.

* [http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/lookingglass/ LookingGlass]
:LookingGlass viewer is a modular viewer with pluggable communication and rendering engines. Initial communication plugin uses LibOpenMetaverse and the initial rendering plugin uses PrimMesher and Ogre. It is written in C# and BSD licensed. Home site at http://lookingglassviewer.org/ .

===Viewers based on other libraries (python, C, etc)===

* [[Pyogp]]
: Pyogp is an open source project between Linden Lab and the Architecture Working Group (AWG) to support testing the (Open Grid Protocol (OGP). Written in Python, Pyogp will consist initially of a client library and test functionality to enable testing OGP-enabled virtual worlds such as Second Life and compatible OpenSim implementations. These components will expand as the effort matures. Pyogp is released under the Apache v2 license.

==Mailing Lists==
* [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo List of Linden Lab mailing lists]
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensource-dev Opensource-Dev] Main mailing list for SL developers
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sldev SLDEV] Archived mailing list for SL developers
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gridnauts gridnauts] Mailing list for participants in Open Grid Public Beta
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pyogp PyOGP] Mailing List for Python-based client library and test harness for the Open Grid Protocols
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Resources#Mailing_Lists libsecondlife]
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page opensim]
* [http://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/openviewer-dev openviewer]
* [http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/vwrap/current/maillist.html VWRAP]

==IRC==
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#opensl
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#opensl-jira (real time updates of entries to jira.secondlife.com)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#opensim
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#opensim-dev
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#libomv
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#libomv-dev
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#openviewer
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#openviewer-dev
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#realxtend (Finnish language but can handle English if needed)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#pyogp (Python test harness/pyogp Second LIfe library irc)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#gridnauts (Open Grid Public Beta irc)

==Forums==
* [http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend| realXtend google forum]

==Capabilities==

* [http://www.cap-lore.com/CapTheory/index.html Capabilities theory and practice]
* [http://wiki.erights.org/wiki/Zooko%27s_triangle Zook's Triangle index] -- short list of interesting articles about naming and capabilties
* [http://www.cs.washington.edu/homes/levy/capabook/ Capability-based Systems by Henry Levy] --online copy of 1984 book on early implementations of capabilities systems
* [http://www.erights.org/ E language home] [https://www.cypherpunks.to/erights/ E language home mirror] [http://wiki.erights.org/ E wiki] --computer language dedicated to handling distributed trust issues
** [https://www.cypherpunks.to/erights/elib/capability/index.html Capability Computation]
** irc://irc.freenode.net/#erights
** [http://www.eros-os.org/mailman/listinfo/e-lang E language mailing list]
* [http://www.eros-os.org/mailman/listinfo/cap-talk mailing list for capability systems]
* [http://mscheffler.wordpress.com/2008/01/20/diploma/ blog and thesis on caps in virtual worlds Martin Scheffler]
* [http://homepage.mac.com/kpreid/elang/den.html Cap-based MUD by Kevin Reid] --written in E
* [http://www.fudco.com/chip/lessons.html discussion of ancient (Commodore 64!) video game that used capabilities]

==Misc==

* [http://blog.signpostmarv.name/2008/07/29/non-unique-region-names-within-the-confines-of-a-single-grid-yay-or-nay/ non-unique region names within the confines of a single grid, yay or nay ?]
* [http://blog.signpostmarv.name/2008/01/04/map-api-in-new-location/ discussion of new Map API and related issues]
* [http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source Open Source Portal] --index to all things Open Source for Linden Lab

=Members=

Founder [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]

[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]

[[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]

[[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]

[[User:Dr Scofield|Dr Scofield]]

[[User:Burhop Piccard|Burhop Piccard]]

[[User:Vicero Lambert|Vicero Lambert]]

[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]

[[User:Silicon Plunkett|Silicon Plunkett]]

[[User:Dale Innis|Dale Innis]]

[[Category:Architecture Working Group]]
[[Category:Grid_Interoperability]]
[[Category:AW Groupies]]
[[Category:MMOX]]

AW Groupies

2011-02-08T20:11:25Z

Saijanai Kuhn: /* 2010 meetings */

=Purpose=
Serious technical discussion about Linden Lab's [[Architecture Working Group|Architecture Working Group (AWG)]]. "AW Groupies" is an unofficial, Resident-operated group, though most (all?) members also participate in the AWG.

Invite only (apply in-world to [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]), but the criterion is simple. Show up and contribute to the AWG, or on the Wiki, or on SL-Dev or in the [irc://irc.freenode.net/#pyogp irc channel] for the [[Pyogp/Client_Lib|Python test client]].

=Activities=
The [[AW_Groupies#Architecture_Working_Group_meetings|main AWG meeting]] is held annually or semi-annually.
We now [[AW_Groupies#In-World_Meetings|meet up to 8 times a week in-world]], counting AW Groupies meeting, Enus's office hours, and the [[Pyogp#In_World_Meetings|pygop daily meetings]].

Our main focus these days is on the [[Open Grid Protocol]], the [[Open_Grid_Public_Beta]] and the [[Pyogp|pyogp Python test harness]] for protocol testing.

Also members are quite active on the wiki and in the SLDEV mailing list.

A public SVN repository is open to all AW Groupies members here:
* http://openmv.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/archwg/

Contact anyone with root on openmv.org for an account if you are in the AW Groupies group in-world.

==Architecture Working Group meetings==
* [[AWG_Meeting_1|AWG I annual meeting transcript, participants' responses, etc]]
* [[AWG_Meeting_2|AWG II annual meeting transcript, video, participants' responses, etc]]

==In-World Meetings==
===AW Groupies meeting===
Weekly meeting times are:

* '''Tuesdays''' ------ 9:30 AM SLT (weekly AWG meeting)

1st - 3rd Tuesdays of the month at [http://slurl.com/secondlife/ThorneBridgeTown/156/129/25 Zha's IBM Island at ThorneBridgeTown]

4th Tuesday of the month at [http://www.osgrid.org/elgg/index.php OSGrid] which you can access by using the login URI http://osgrid.org:8002. See the [http://www.osgrid.org/elgg/index.php Main OSGrid page] for more info or read the [http://www.osgrid.org/docs/instructions.htm instructions to log in] for help. Look for the region "Dahlia AWG" for the meeting!

* ------------------ Noon SLT [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies#OpenSim__meeting| Open Sim Meeting]

Meetings are scheduled via the "[http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com SL AW Groupies" google calendar]" (though the above schedule is generally more accurate).

* [http://www.google.com/calendar/feeds/pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic XML]
* [http://www.google.com/calendar/ical/pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics ICal]
* Calendar ID: pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4@group.calendar.google.com
* [http://www.google.com/calendar/render?cid=pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com Add to your Google Calendar]

====Meeting Agendas====

Each meeting should have an agenda --- which will be distributed via
* google calendar entry
* in-world notice to the SL "AW Groupies" group
* the [[AW Groupies In-World Meeting Agenda]] wiki page

===OpenSim meeting===
* Tuesdays/Saturdays noon SLT, at Wright Plaza sim in OSGrid. [http://osgrid.org/index.php?page=home&btn=1 Registration Page]

Set [[Client_parameters|client command line options]] to:
:-loginuri http://osgrid.org:8002
:-loginpage http://osgrid.org/loginscreen.php
:-helperuri http://osgrid.org/

===Chat Logs===

Chat logs of the in-world meetings are published and accessible via the links below:

====2007 meetings====
:* September: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/2007-09-28 | 28]]
:* October: [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-01 | 1]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-05 | 5]] [[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2007_Oct_09|9 --Zero's office]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-16| 16]]
:* November: [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-06 | 6]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-13 | 13]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-20| 20]]
====2008 meetings====
:* January: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-01-08|08]]
:*February: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-02-19|19]]
:*April: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-08|08]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-22|22]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-29|29]]
:*May: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-05-20|20]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-05-27|27]]
:*June: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-03|03]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-10|10]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-17|17]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-24|24]]
:*July: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-01|01]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-08| 08]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-15|15]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-22|22]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-29|29]]
:*August: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-05|05]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-12|12]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-19|19]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-26|26]]
:* September [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-09|9]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-16|16]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-23|23]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-30|30]]
:* October [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-07|7]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-14|14]] [[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_October_14|14 --Zero's O.H.]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-28|28]]
:* November [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-11-11|11]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-11-18|18]]
:* December [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-09|9]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-16|16]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-23|23]]
====2009 meetings====
:*January [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-06|6]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-13|13]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-20|20]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-27|27]]
:*February [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-03|3]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-10|10]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-17|17]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-24|24]]
:*March [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-03-03|3]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-03-10|10]]
:*April [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-07|7]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-14|14]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-28|28]]
:*June [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-06-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-06-16|16]]
:*July [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-07-21|21]]
:*September [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-09-15|15]]
:*October [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-10-20|20]]
====2010 meetings====
:*March [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-03-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-03-09|9]]
:*April [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/JoeLindenTPVBrownbag-2010-04-13|13joe]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-04-20|20joshua]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/JoeLindenTPVBrownbag-2010-04-20|20joe]]
:*May [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-05-04|04proxies]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-05-19|18meadhbh]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-05-25|25]]
:*June [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-06-01|04mojito]]
:*September [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/Nyx-OH-Meshes-2010-09-15|15NyxMeshes]]

====2011 meetings====
:*January [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2011-02-08|8]]

*
* [[MMOX#Chat_logs|MMOX chat logs]] -- in-world transcripts with non-SL/Opensim participants
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Grid_Interoperability_Chat_Logs All Grid Interoperability chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:AW_Groupies_Transcripts All AW Groupies chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Pyogp_Transcripts All Pyogp chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Open_Grid_Public_Beta_Transcripts All Open Grid Public Beta Transcripts]
*
* [[User:Zero_Linden#Transcripts_of_previous_office_hours|Zero Linden's Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Which_Linden|Which Linden's Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Enus_Linden| Enus Linden Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Whump_Linden| Whump Linden Office Hour Transcripts]]
*
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=chat+log OpenSim chat logs]
* [[Mono/2008-04-04 | mono beta meeting discussion of het-grid]]

(if you post chat logs, you might want to use the [[User:Dr_Scofield/logtransform|sllog2wiki perl script]] to turn them into a more readable wiki table format ready to copy & paste into the chat log page)

Chat logs of AWGroupies meetings should be summarized on the wiki.

==Viewpoint Advocacy Groups==

[[Viewpoint Advocacy Groups]] - groups to focus on specific requirements.
=== AWG-specific VAGs===

* [[Core Grid Services, Protocols, and Structures VAG]]
* [[Event Scalability VAG]]
* [[Geometry and Physics VAG]]
* [[Live Performances VAG]]
* [[Quality Assurance VAG]]
* [[Scalability VAG]]
=== AWG-related VAGs===
* [[Map_API_VAG]]
* [[Multi-Process Client VAG -- draft]]

=Work-In-Progress=

Work-in-progress wiki pages are architecture pages that are (as the name implies ;-)) work in progress. Once the group has reached consensus that a particular topic is "good-to-go" we'll graduate that page to the [[Architecture Working Group|main AWG page]].

==General Concerns==
* [[Scoping]]
* [[Architecture Working Group Glossary|Glossary]]
* [[Use Cases]]
===Open Grid Protocol (OGP)===
====Linden Pages====

====User Pages====

==Communications==
* [[Initial CAPS seed]]
* [[AWG initial flows]]
* [[AWG flows login]]

* [[Mudata]]
* [[Streamlet]]
===Documenting current protocols===
* [[Pyogp|Python test harness for OGP]]
** [[User:Which_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_May_22| Which Linden office hours 22 May 2008]]
====AWG and citizen pages====
* [[Current_login_protocols]]
* [[Current_Sim_Capabilities]]
* [[Example_protocol_code]]
* [[Hegemons_Login_Analysis#Very_simple_C.23__server]]
* [[User:Gareth_Ellison/Supergrid|Litesim grid interop]]
* [[EventQueueGet_CAP| Event Queue Get CAP]]

====Linden Lab pages====
* [[Service_Disruptions|"Satellite's Eye" view of the Second Life architecture from a service disruption POV]]
* [[Message_System_and_Capabilities]]
* [[Viewer_Authentication]]
* [[Viewer_Architecture]]
* [[Protocol]]
* [[LLSD]]
* [[Certified_HTTP_Escrow]]
* [[ImprovedInstantMessage]]
* [[Client_parameters|client command line parameters and stuff]]

====libsecondlife reference pages====
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Login Login page]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Protocol_%28network%29 Protocol page]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Category:Packets packets index]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Movement Movement]

====opensim reference pages====
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Grid_Architecture_Diagram opensim grid architecture diagram]
* [http://opensimulator.org/images/3/3c/OGS1Login_Sequence.jpg login diagram (same general sequence as current LL login)]

=== Future Protocols===
* [[Second_Life_Login_API_Strawman]]
:deprecated in favor of:
* [[Open Grid Protocol]]
** [[SLGOGP_Teleport_Strawman]]
*[[Architecture_Working_Group#Design_Documents | Ongoing next generation protocols documentation effort by Linden Lab]]

=== Possible future directions ===
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenID| OpenID A decentralized single sign-on system]
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yadis| Yardis A digital identity protocol]

==Asset Security and Trust==
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Dale_Innis/Asset_handling_in_OGP Asset Handling in OGP]
* [[Protecting content in an open grid]]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Infinity_Linden/OGP_Trust_Model OGP Trust Model]

==Scaling Issues==
* [[Brainstorming#ANALYSIS:_Region_Subdivision_as_a_scaling_method| Region Subdivision]]
* [[Brainstorming#ANALYSIS:_Scalability_through_reverse_proxies:_the_paravirtual_grid| Reverse Proxies]]
* [[AWG Scalability through per-resident subdivision of the Grid| Resident Subdivision]]
===Group IM===
* [[Message_Queue_Evaluation_Notes| Which Linden's message queue evaluation notes]]

==Other==
* [[Use_Cases#Extended_Capability_Clients|Extended Capability Clients]]

=Thinking-in-Progress=

* Have a look and contribute to the [[Brainstorming|brainstorming]] page.

* It's early days on the [[Multi-Process Client VAG -- draft]], but we would highly appreciate input to help with design choices and direction.
==Misc User Pages==
* Have an AWG idea? Don't know where in the wiki it should be indexed? Make sure that folks can find it by adding it to the [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:AW_Groupies_User_Pages AW_Groupies_User_Pages] Add: <nowiki>'[[Category:AW Groupies User Pages]]'</nowiki> to the end of your user page.

=External Resources=

Stuff of interest to or in connection with the [[AW Groupies]] or the [[Architecture Working Group]]:

* [[Developer_communication_tools|Developer Communication Tools (Linden Lab)]]
* [[SLDev|SLDev Main Page]]
* [[Open_Grid_Public_Beta]]
* [[Pyogp]] {Linden Labs/ AWG Python-based protocols testing library)
*
* [http://openmv.org/ OpenMetaverse Home]
**[http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Main_Page libsecondlife (libsl) homepage]
**[http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page opensim homepage]
**[http://openviewer.org openviewer homepage]
**[http://code.google.com/p/openmetaverse/wiki/SimianGrid SimianGrid]
*[http://www.osgrid.org OSGrid: open/non-profit OpenSim based grid]
* [http://www.realxtend.org/ realxtend homepage]
*
* [http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/22428.wss IBM PR re: AWG]

Latha's quick list of interop relevant VW sites, 3/30/2010
* http://tools.ietf.org/wg/vwrap/
* http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page
* http://openwonderland.org/
* http://www.realxtend.org/
* http://code.google.com/p/openmetaverse/wiki/SimianGrid
* http://www.opencobalt.org/
* http://www.solipsis.org/
* http://www.web3d.org/

==Second Life Viewers==
Various viewers compatible with Second Life.

::*Note: the "Derived 3rd-party clients" page includes a few non GPL viewers plus some hybrids. I'll try to come up with a better way to index this stuff. [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]
::*Yeah, that redirect of "Alternate_viewers" to "Downloads" is nuts, and the "Downloads" page itself seems to have to have a variety of things bundled together --- it needs splitting. But don't split it by license, that's precisely what I sought to eliminate in this section's re-org. It makes no sense to classify clients by license, since GPL'd clients don't necessarily have anything to do with Linden's code, just like BSD clients don't necessarily have anything to do with libomv. It does make sense to keep a list of Linden-derived clients though, since they're all more alike than not alike, and share both code and license encumbrance. [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]] 01:28, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

===Viewers based on the Linden Lab GPL code (C++)===

*[http://secondlife.com/support/downloads.php Main Second Life viewer/client]
:The main (official) Second Life viewer, produced by Linden Lab with the help of patches submitted by the community, and available for Linux, Mac and Windows.

*[[Snowglobe|Snowglobe]]

:A new version of the Second Life client in a public repository where Linden Lab permits direct committing from select community members alongside daily Linden work. There is also a new build system to keep this version continuously building when new submissions are received, with new builds available to everyone. This version will become available as an alternative Linden download alongside the main SL client, once it is sufficiently stable.

*[[Alternate_viewers|Derived 3rd-party clients]] (''currently links to a mixed "Downloads" page, to be fixed'')
:A large list of clients (not necessarily 3D) developed in the free and open-source community using GPL code from the above two official viewers.

===Viewers based on the libomv/libsl code (C#)===

* [http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/idealistviewer/ Idealist]
:IdealistViewer is a new cross-platform viewer based on the Irrlicht engine, PrimMesher, and LibOpenmetaverse. It can either use the Second Life protocols as provided by LibOpenmetaverse or the MXP protocol. Since it uses the Irrlicht engine it can simultaneously display prim/sculptie content and objects and animated meshes/avatars from a wide variety of sources such as Collada, .OBJ, DirectX, and Blitz3D files. It is not derived from the LL GPL viewer and is made available under BSD style licensing. It is designed to work with OpenSimulator but may also work with Second Life. It is written in the C# language.

* [http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/lookingglass/ LookingGlass]
:LookingGlass viewer is a modular viewer with pluggable communication and rendering engines. Initial communication plugin uses LibOpenMetaverse and the initial rendering plugin uses PrimMesher and Ogre. It is written in C# and BSD licensed. Home site at http://lookingglassviewer.org/ .

===Viewers based on other libraries (python, C, etc)===

* [[Pyogp]]
: Pyogp is an open source project between Linden Lab and the Architecture Working Group (AWG) to support testing the (Open Grid Protocol (OGP). Written in Python, Pyogp will consist initially of a client library and test functionality to enable testing OGP-enabled virtual worlds such as Second Life and compatible OpenSim implementations. These components will expand as the effort matures. Pyogp is released under the Apache v2 license.

==Mailing Lists==
* [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo List of Linden Lab mailing lists]
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensource-dev Opensource-Dev] Main mailing list for SL developers
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sldev SLDEV] Archived mailing list for SL developers
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gridnauts gridnauts] Mailing list for participants in Open Grid Public Beta
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pyogp PyOGP] Mailing List for Python-based client library and test harness for the Open Grid Protocols
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Resources#Mailing_Lists libsecondlife]
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page opensim]
* [http://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/openviewer-dev openviewer]
* [http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/vwrap/current/maillist.html VWRAP]

==IRC==
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#opensl
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#opensl-jira (real time updates of entries to jira.secondlife.com)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#opensim
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#opensim-dev
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#libomv
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#libomv-dev
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#openviewer
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#openviewer-dev
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#realxtend (Finnish language but can handle English if needed)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#pyogp (Python test harness/pyogp Second LIfe library irc)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#gridnauts (Open Grid Public Beta irc)

==Forums==
* [http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend| realXtend google forum]

==Capabilities==

* [http://www.cap-lore.com/CapTheory/index.html Capabilities theory and practice]
* [http://wiki.erights.org/wiki/Zooko%27s_triangle Zook's Triangle index] -- short list of interesting articles about naming and capabilties
* [http://www.cs.washington.edu/homes/levy/capabook/ Capability-based Systems by Henry Levy] --online copy of 1984 book on early implementations of capabilities systems
* [http://www.erights.org/ E language home] [https://www.cypherpunks.to/erights/ E language home mirror] [http://wiki.erights.org/ E wiki] --computer language dedicated to handling distributed trust issues
** [https://www.cypherpunks.to/erights/elib/capability/index.html Capability Computation]
** irc://irc.freenode.net/#erights
** [http://www.eros-os.org/mailman/listinfo/e-lang E language mailing list]
* [http://www.eros-os.org/mailman/listinfo/cap-talk mailing list for capability systems]
* [http://mscheffler.wordpress.com/2008/01/20/diploma/ blog and thesis on caps in virtual worlds Martin Scheffler]
* [http://homepage.mac.com/kpreid/elang/den.html Cap-based MUD by Kevin Reid] --written in E
* [http://www.fudco.com/chip/lessons.html discussion of ancient (Commodore 64!) video game that used capabilities]

==Misc==

* [http://blog.signpostmarv.name/2008/07/29/non-unique-region-names-within-the-confines-of-a-single-grid-yay-or-nay/ non-unique region names within the confines of a single grid, yay or nay ?]
* [http://blog.signpostmarv.name/2008/01/04/map-api-in-new-location/ discussion of new Map API and related issues]
* [http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source Open Source Portal] --index to all things Open Source for Linden Lab

=Members=

Founder [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]

[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]

[[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]

[[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]

[[User:Dr Scofield|Dr Scofield]]

[[User:Burhop Piccard|Burhop Piccard]]

[[User:Vicero Lambert|Vicero Lambert]]

[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]

[[User:Silicon Plunkett|Silicon Plunkett]]

[[User:Dale Innis|Dale Innis]]

[[Category:Architecture Working Group]]
[[Category:Grid_Interoperability]]
[[Category:AW Groupies]]
[[Category:MMOX]]

AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2011-02-08

2011-02-08T20:08:25Z

Saijanai Kuhn: Created page with "*[2011/02/08 09:30] Beyond Baroque: Hi guys *[2011/02/08 09:30] Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma): hello :-) *[2011/02/…"

*[2011/02/08 09:30] [[User: Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]: Hi guys
*[2011/02/08 09:30] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: hello :-)
*[2011/02/08 09:30] [[User: Zidonuke (zidonuke.ghost)|Zidonuke (zidonuke.ghost)]]: Ello
*[2011/02/08 09:30] [[User: Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]: Srry if I trampled somebody. Too many processes running, lots of lag on my side
*[2011/02/08 09:31] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: I hear that 70 ton dragons do that to a sim...
*[2011/02/08 09:31] [[User: Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]: /me looks at Virtualvian with a raised eyebrow
*[2011/02/08 09:32] [[User: サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)|サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)]]: so welcome all to the week ly AWG meeting. Maccus should be here any second now
*[2011/02/08 09:32] [[User: Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]: Are you calling me fat? :P
*[2011/02/08 09:32] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: /me hides under his invisble cloak
*[2011/02/08 09:32] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: I would say more horizontally challenged Beyond
*[2011/02/08 09:33] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Welcom Maccus
*[2011/02/08 09:33] [[User: Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]: Main challenge I have is making Viewer 2 swap avatars
*[2011/02/08 09:33] [[User: Zidonuke (zidonuke.ghost)|Zidonuke (zidonuke.ghost)]]: Ahh, Welcome Maccus.
*[2011/02/08 09:33] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Understand that one
*[2011/02/08 09:33] [[User: Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]: For some reason it refuses a plain "Replace outfit" with lots of my non-humans
*[2011/02/08 09:34] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Feel like in a time warp machine at times switching viewers
*[2011/02/08 09:34] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: Hi Joey
*[2011/02/08 09:34] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: Hi Zid
*[2011/02/08 09:34] [[User: Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]: This might work...
*[2011/02/08 09:35] [[User: サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)|サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)]]: So Maccus asked me for an invite to Groupies earlier today, and I asked him to speak out our weekly meeting
*[2011/02/08 09:36] [[User: Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]: Blackmail works
*[2011/02/08 09:36] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: so who knows were the bodies are buried?
*[2011/02/08 09:37] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Can't prove it I didn't leave any trace evidence
*[2011/02/08 09:37] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Never met Hoffa either
*[2011/02/08 09:37] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: that's a new feature in SLV2
*[2011/02/08 09:37] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: Joey - getting into trouble again ? ;)
*[2011/02/08 09:37] [[User: サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)|サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)]]: Zha tends to throw them up into the molecule and let the birds pck at them
*[2011/02/08 09:37] [[User: Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]: I DIDN'T DO IT
*[2011/02/08 09:37] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Me trouble?? No just drawn that way
*[2011/02/08 09:37] [[User: Zidonuke (zidonuke.ghost)|Zidonuke (zidonuke.ghost)]]: damn firestorm viewer
*[2011/02/08 09:37] [[User: Kaline Hax|Kaline Hax]]: lol
*[2011/02/08 09:37] [[User: Melchizedek Blauvelt|Melchizedek Blauvelt]]: I'm behind 7 proxies
*[2011/02/08 09:39] [[User: サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)|サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)]]: so, breaking awakward silence, anyone have any news they want to share?
*[2011/02/08 09:39] [[User: Zidonuke (zidonuke.ghost)|Zidonuke (zidonuke.ghost)]]: I'm being chased to the corners of the internet by LL still.
*[2011/02/08 09:39] [[User: Zidonuke (zidonuke.ghost)|Zidonuke (zidonuke.ghost)]]: Heh.
*[2011/02/08 09:39] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Today's Jules Verne RL rez day
*[2011/02/08 09:40] [[User: Zidonuke (zidonuke.ghost)|Zidonuke (zidonuke.ghost)]]: google is silly like that
*[2011/02/08 09:40] [[User: Kaline Hax|Kaline Hax]]: jules verne google logo slows my loading time
*[2011/02/08 09:43] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: silence... ?
*[2011/02/08 09:43] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Simon and Garfunkle song
*[2011/02/08 09:45] [[User: サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)|サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)]]: so Maccus, seems to be a slow day today, so feel free to start talking. We usually use text for these meetings and put a transcript on the SL wiki
*[2011/02/08 09:45] [[User: Kaline Hax|Kaline Hax]]: what is everyones favorite viewer?
*[2011/02/08 09:45] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: Sg 1.4
*[2011/02/08 09:45] [[User: Zidonuke (zidonuke.ghost)|Zidonuke (zidonuke.ghost)]]: telnet
*[2011/02/08 09:45] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: ++Zido
*[2011/02/08 09:45] [[User: サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)|サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)]]: the one I haven't written yet
*[2011/02/08 09:46] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: not V2
*[2011/02/08 09:46] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: Hi Everyone, Thank you for letting participate today
*[2011/02/08 09:46] [[User: Melchizedek Blauvelt|Melchizedek Blauvelt]]: Emergence still, works flawless for me
*[2011/02/08 09:46] [[User: Kaline Hax|Kaline Hax]]: im writing training material for a client... i am trying to decide what viewer to write it in
*[2011/02/08 09:46] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: hey Maccus :)
*[2011/02/08 09:47] [[User: Xon Emoto|Xon Emoto]]: Hello
*[2011/02/08 09:47] [[User: Melchizedek Blauvelt|Melchizedek Blauvelt]]: Hi Macc, welcome
*[2011/02/08 09:47] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Phoenix
*[2011/02/08 09:47] [[User: Kaline Hax|Kaline Hax]]: leaning towards pheonix.. its all for new users
*[2011/02/08 09:47] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: Saijanai and JB brought me in this morning and I would like to talk to you about what the US Military is doing in SL/Virtual Environments as well as ask for your assistance
*[2011/02/08 09:47] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: New users don't get Phoenix. Will they have special instructions in advance?
*[2011/02/08 09:47] [[User: Kaline Hax|Kaline Hax]]: i love the miltary islands
*[2011/02/08 09:48] [[User: Zidonuke (zidonuke.ghost)|Zidonuke (zidonuke.ghost)]]: military islands?
*[2011/02/08 09:48] [[User: Kaline Hax|Kaline Hax]]: yes special instructions
*[2011/02/08 09:48] [[User: lufpleh Obstreperous|lufpleh Obstreperous]]: phoenix will be gone in few months, only long term choice available at moment is V2
*[2011/02/08 09:48] [[User: Kaline Hax|Kaline Hax]]: coalition islands
*[2011/02/08 09:48] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Army seems to be leading the way these days to innvoation
*[2011/02/08 09:48] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I started a group called the MiLands - Military Lands in Second Life
*[2011/02/08 09:48] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: its central island is Coalition Island
*[2011/02/08 09:48] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: Thank you Kaline, you are all welcome to visit
*[2011/02/08 09:48] [[User: Zidonuke (zidonuke.ghost)|Zidonuke (zidonuke.ghost)]]: I'll have to check that out.
*[2011/02/08 09:49] [[User: Kaline Hax|Kaline Hax]]: its a pretty cool place zidon
*[2011/02/08 09:49] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: hello everybody
*[2011/02/08 09:49] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: Hi Rex
*[2011/02/08 09:49] [[User: Melchizedek Blauvelt|Melchizedek Blauvelt]]: heya Rex
*[2011/02/08 09:49] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: hey Rex :)
*[2011/02/08 09:49] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: MiLands is 2 years old now
*[2011/02/08 09:49] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: we meet monthly
*[2011/02/08 09:49] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: hi melchizedek, jb
*[2011/02/08 09:49] [[User: Zidonuke (zidonuke.ghost)|Zidonuke (zidonuke.ghost)]]: Of course all I got on me is my 3 months of being in the US Navy before I medical discharge (personal stuff x.x)
*[2011/02/08 09:50] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: All of the Islands there (with the exception of Coalition Island) are owned by the US Military
*[2011/02/08 09:50] [[User: Kaline Hax|Kaline Hax]]: there is a support group on the military islands
*[2011/02/08 09:50] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Hi Archivist
*[2011/02/08 09:50] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: hi Archivist - great to see you again :)
*[2011/02/08 09:50] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: the MiLands is a guidance organization for other Military activities wishing to enter virtual worlds and SL
*[2011/02/08 09:50] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: Hi Archivist
*[2011/02/08 09:50] [[User: Archivist Llewellyn|Archivist Llewellyn]]: hi
*[2011/02/08 09:50] [[User: Zidonuke (zidonuke.ghost)|Zidonuke (zidonuke.ghost)]]: Very interesting.
*[2011/02/08 09:51] [[User: Kaline Hax|Kaline Hax]]: i used military islands as a case study for a govt agency client on ours
*[2011/02/08 09:51] [[User: Kaline Hax|Kaline Hax]]: of ours*
*[2011/02/08 09:51] [[User: Archivist Llewellyn|Archivist Llewellyn]]: I will grab a seat as soon as I am done rezzing.
*[2011/02/08 09:51] [[User: Maccus McCullough: If you guys have any questions or comments you may email me directly|Maccus McCullough: If you guys have any questions or comments you may email me directly]]: douglas.b.maxwell@us.army.mil
*[2011/02/08 09:51] [[User: サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)|サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)]]: the outer circle of benches is the chat range
*[2011/02/08 09:51] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: I will be a gentleman. Take mine Archivist
*[2011/02/08 09:52] [[User: サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)|サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)]]: BTW< Maccus, that url on your profile doesn't seem to work currently
*[2011/02/08 09:52] [[User: Kaline Hax|Kaline Hax]]: is this your email maccus?
*[2011/02/08 09:52] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: yes
*[2011/02/08 09:52] [[User: Kaline Hax|Kaline Hax]]: would love to talk to you some time
*[2011/02/08 09:52] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: we just reorganized my command, so I'll change teh URL
*[2011/02/08 09:52] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: thank you for letting me know
*[2011/02/08 09:53] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: email or IM anytime Kaline
*[2011/02/08 09:53] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: the military sees SL as an interesting simulation framework
*[2011/02/08 09:53] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: it has real time computational steering
*[2011/02/08 09:53] [[User: Xon Emoto|Xon Emoto]]: Me too, we have been exploring MiLands for people from German Bunbdeswehr.
*[2011/02/08 09:53] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: "steering"?
*[2011/02/08 09:53] [[User: Xon Emoto|Xon Emoto]]: *Bundeswehr*
*[2011/02/08 09:54] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: for example, using LSL you can affect the simulation in real time
*[2011/02/08 09:54] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Always wondered if this was a progression from Project Darkstar
*[2011/02/08 09:54] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: We looked closely at Darkstar
*[2011/02/08 09:54] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: it never matured
*[2011/02/08 09:54] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: Red Dwarf is the latest project name for it
*[2011/02/08 09:54] [[User: Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]: Have you evaluated OpenSim?
*[2011/02/08 09:55] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: That's a great question. One of hte reasons I'm here to day is to talk about OpenSim
*[2011/02/08 09:55] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Great
*[2011/02/08 09:55] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: We have been involved with OpenSim since 2007
*[2011/02/08 09:55] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: :)
*[2011/02/08 09:55] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Maccus has worked at both Navy and Army now
*[2011/02/08 09:56] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: Since Linden Lab has dropped the SLE program, we need to step up our OpenSim efforts
*[2011/02/08 09:56] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: Pardon me, I should have introduced myself
*[2011/02/08 09:56] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: Hi Maccus
*[2011/02/08 09:56] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: My RL name is Douglas Maxwell
*[2011/02/08 09:56] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: Hi mr. Mars
*[2011/02/08 09:56] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: ltns
*[2011/02/08 09:56] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I work for the Army Research Lab in Orlando Fl
*[2011/02/08 09:56] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: hi
*[2011/02/08 09:56] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: Greetings everyone, pardon my sudden appearance lol.
*[2011/02/08 09:57] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: previously I worked for the Naval Undersea Warfare Center in Newport, RI
*[2011/02/08 09:57] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: hi
*[2011/02/08 09:57] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: we have done things like ingest real world terrain and create large "real world" areas in SL
*[2011/02/08 09:57] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: and OpenSim
*[2011/02/08 09:57] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Much of the VIrtual NUWC build in SL was I think thanks to Doug's hard work
*[2011/02/08 09:57] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: :)
*[2011/02/08 09:57] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: so the army is interested in interoperability among grids:)
*[2011/02/08 09:57] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: We have also integrated a live running combat system into Teleplace so you could remotely prosecute a target
*[2011/02/08 09:58] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: all of the military is interested in interoperability
*[2011/02/08 09:58] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Are you also looking yet at using assets servers from one VW inside of another VW?
*[2011/02/08 09:58] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: Interoperability is a huge headache for us
*[2011/02/08 09:58] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: we have millions of dollars tied up in content
*[2011/02/08 09:58] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: u mean that u can control a real weaponized bot from sl?
*[2011/02/08 09:59] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Interoperability just between Army-owned grids, right?
*[2011/02/08 09:59] [[User: Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]: Millions? really?
*[2011/02/08 09:59] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I'd love to make something once and move it between environments efficiently
*[2011/02/08 09:59] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: its a bit of a holy grail atm. well, until the MPEG formats get released later this year, that will pave the way
*[2011/02/08 09:59] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: Labor for good content is expensive
*[2011/02/08 09:59] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Immersive Education group is working on that Doug
*[2011/02/08 09:59] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: the IEEE Metaverse Standards group is working it too but we are still embryonic
*[2011/02/08 09:59] [[User: Kaline Hax|Kaline Hax]]: how many islands? i havent counted but there seem to be about 20 or 30 + on your continent
*[2011/02/08 09:59] [[User: サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)|サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)]]: trying to get the attention of the immersive Education guy.
*[2011/02/08 09:59] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Had assets from Wonderland live play in RealXtend
*[2011/02/08 09:59] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: If all the grids where you do this are controlled by the Military, you could set up a shared asset service more easily. You do not have to worry about random outsiders stealing stuff
*[2011/02/08 10:00] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: that means X3D worked with open sim, interesting
*[2011/02/08 10:00] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: there r already programs that allow u take anything form this grid and move it to another grid
*[2011/02/08 10:00] [[User: サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)|サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)]]: are you familiar with the iED open file format, Maccus?
*[2011/02/08 10:00] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: no, do you have a link?
*[2011/02/08 10:00] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Yes let me find
*[2011/02/08 10:00] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: http://www.youtube.com/ImmersiveED#p/u/0/cMhBiu0YJ3s
*[2011/02/08 10:00] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: we have many initiatives that use open sim, all behind firewalls
*[2011/02/08 10:00] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I'd like to create a public open sim grid
*[2011/02/08 10:01] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Aaron Walsh is the guy that is leading the iED group that I am on
*[2011/02/08 10:01] [[User: サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)|サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)]]: http://mediagrid.org/news/2010-11_iED_Create_Once_Experience_Everywhere.html
*[2011/02/08 10:01] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: With the introduction of solutions like Metoforik server solutions, deploying content, security will come along with, and interoperability will evolve much quicker
*[2011/02/08 10:01] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: metaforik*
*[2011/02/08 10:01] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I am prepared to stand up an an open sim server farm and open it up for the public to log in
*[2011/02/08 10:01] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I'd prefer to do this with OSGrid
*[2011/02/08 10:01] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: (attached to OSGrid)
*[2011/02/08 10:02] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: the initial resources would support 100 sims
*[2011/02/08 10:02] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Have you looked at the maturity of RealXtend?
*[2011/02/08 10:02] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: It is setup for education use
*[2011/02/08 10:02] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: doesn't the army alreayd have a license from ll to run their own server(s)?
*[2011/02/08 10:02] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I've seen RealXtend and ReactionGrid
*[2011/02/08 10:02] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I have a SLE here
*[2011/02/08 10:02] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: yes
*[2011/02/08 10:02] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: its license expires this summer
*[2011/02/08 10:02] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I have chosen not to renew it
*[2011/02/08 10:02] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: No future support, I bet
*[2011/02/08 10:02] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: SLE is nothing more than OpenSim in a box anyway lol.
*[2011/02/08 10:03] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: What happens when SLE expires?
*[2011/02/08 10:03] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: there is no support, that is correct
*[2011/02/08 10:03] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Oh
*[2011/02/08 10:03] [[User: NullSubset Burner|NullSubset Burner]]: by military- Do you mean Darpa?
*[2011/02/08 10:03] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: no
*[2011/02/08 10:03] [[User: NullSubset Burner|NullSubset Burner]]: ah kk
*[2011/02/08 10:03] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: The SLE is currently unsupported, so it is obsolete
*[2011/02/08 10:03] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Like a car that can't get oil changes
*[2011/02/08 10:04] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: the good thing is that the OS servers r free
*[2011/02/08 10:04] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: LL dropped support partway thru a license contract term??
*[2011/02/08 10:04] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: It was a great resource to have last year as Open Sim wasn't stable
*[2011/02/08 10:04] [[User: サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)|サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)]]: hey Tapple
*[2011/02/08 10:04] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: Things have changed and OS has matured
*[2011/02/08 10:04] [[User: サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)|サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)]]: Tapple is a programmer with the Open Cobalt project, Maccus
*[2011/02/08 10:04] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: Hi Tapple
*[2011/02/08 10:04] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Nice
*[2011/02/08 10:04] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: The biggest advantage SLE had was stability
*[2011/02/08 10:04] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: it ran for months without trouble
*[2011/02/08 10:04] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Can't wait for Sirikata to get a bit more mature
*[2011/02/08 10:05] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: surely, working with non-mesh platforms, is like rebuilding a model T ford, for a race.. mesh based platforms are better for multi-user and security
*[2011/02/08 10:05] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: OpenSim needs frequent care and feeding
*[2011/02/08 10:05] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: so even though its free, the operating costs are significant
*[2011/02/08 10:05] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I'm prepared to handle that
*[2011/02/08 10:05] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: And Unity 3D just got their certificate of Networthiness for the Army
*[2011/02/08 10:06] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: agreed
*[2011/02/08 10:06] [[User: Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]: You know, I remember seeing some document online, a procurement order in the millions for SLE licenses
*[2011/02/08 10:06] [[User: サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)|サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)]]: I'm part of a little startup that is making dedicated hardware to run squieak smalltalk. Eventually we hope to have ultra-cheap clouds running cobalt and such
*[2011/02/08 10:06] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I've been working with Chris Collins and
*[2011/02/08 10:06] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: hahaha
*[2011/02/08 10:06] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: millions of licenses? no
*[2011/02/08 10:06] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: if servers from both ll and OS end costing more or less similar, so why swich to OS?
*[2011/02/08 10:06] [[User: Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]: I wonder if anyone stopped to ponder what that kind of money could have done for OpenSim development
*[2011/02/08 10:06] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: for one thing LL won't sell me SLE anymore
*[2011/02/08 10:07] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Because LL cancelled the SLE project
*[2011/02/08 10:07] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: SL etc dont support popular formats like Collada, OBJ, 3DS etc, and therefore Maya, 3DMax etc are almost unuseable.. as most 3d content is produced in mesh format, you have a small market
*[2011/02/08 10:07] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: I wonder if Rod Humble might consider bringign SLE back online
*[2011/02/08 10:07] [[User: サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)|サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)]]: that is changing, of course, but we have not ETA for that
*[2011/02/08 10:07] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: Great question Beyond. I want to engage the developers and get that support
*[2011/02/08 10:07] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Some of the pro tools have SL sculptie export formats, but very restricted in capabilities
*[2011/02/08 10:07] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: LL is pretty staunch on the death of enterprise support.
*[2011/02/08 10:08] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: They won't even let me buy straight engineering support
*[2011/02/08 10:08] [[User: Beyond Baroque: Millions FOR licenses, not of licenses|Beyond Baroque: Millions FOR licenses, not of licenses]]: https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=f5cf358eedeb7fecc07763e7e34f46dc&tab=core&_cview=1
*[2011/02/08 10:08] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I think they pretty commited to a social-network business plan
*[2011/02/08 10:08] [[User: Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]: "NAICS is 511210 Size standard is $25.0 million."
*[2011/02/08 10:09] [[User: Pippin Gao (tapple.gao)|Pippin Gao (tapple.gao)]]: I get the feeling there is more generally available content in SL format than others, at least for avatars
*[2011/02/08 10:09] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: To be honest, if you are spending serious money and fixed on a sl type platform, go wioth OpenSim, it has the greatest longevity.. and its customer ocused
*[2011/02/08 10:09] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I helped write that document. That doesn't mean they spent 25m
*[2011/02/08 10:09] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: usually when army supports something financially there is a lot of paperwork, red tape, and NDA. will that make OS servers actually close source?
*[2011/02/08 10:09] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: And lots of peopl eknow how to create content for it
*[2011/02/08 10:09] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I can explain it if you want
*[2011/02/08 10:10] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: the 70 licenses are extension to the "seats" granted by LL to use the machine
*[2011/02/08 10:10] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: it was to get a couple more years use out of the 1st SLE we bought
*[2011/02/08 10:10] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: $25M was not spent
*[2011/02/08 10:11] [[User: Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]: I'm glad to hear that :)
*[2011/02/08 10:11] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: that paragraph is a boiler plate declaration to tell the acquisition people where the contract would fall
*[2011/02/08 10:11] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: if you had spent 25m on SL, then you would need a straight jacket, and protection from the taxpayer lol.
*[2011/02/08 10:11] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: quite literally, it is in the $25m catagory
*[2011/02/08 10:11] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: I tried to work with an SL company for an SBIR last September, but found it hard for some of these companies to work in R&D projects
*[2011/02/08 10:11] [[User: Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]: Based on what I can see on irc, OpenSim core is down to just a handful of active developers, only one or two working on it anywhere near full time
*[2011/02/08 10:12] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: We need more of a procurement pipeline for this -- similar to the Apps 4 Army
*[2011/02/08 10:12] [[User: Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]: They could use some support and encouragement
*[2011/02/08 10:12] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: anyway, I read the Neva article and saw the responses. Was kinda funny
*[2011/02/08 10:12] [[User: Kaline Hax|Kaline Hax]]: im setting up open sim islands
*[2011/02/08 10:13] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: What I'd like to do is get multiple military and contractor sites to contribute to the "new" MiLands
*[2011/02/08 10:13] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: Kaline, you might be able to bring the Canadians on board
*[2011/02/08 10:13] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: It seems like OpenSims are many and very fragmented. Steep learning curve on setting up and making useful. SOunds lik we need a better turnkey approach for all
*[2011/02/08 10:13] [[User: Archivist Llewellyn|Archivist Llewellyn]]: You said developing good content is expensive. How much money per hour does the Army pay for content development for contractors?
*[2011/02/08 10:13] [[User: Kaline Hax|Kaline Hax]]: working on bringing them on board
*[2011/02/08 10:13] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I'm encouraged by the new Simian work
*[2011/02/08 10:14] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: SLE has a nice web based administration capability
*[2011/02/08 10:14] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: OS needs something like that
*[2011/02/08 10:14] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: people like me in the R&D community don't mind command line interfaces, but not so much elsewhere
*[2011/02/08 10:14] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: And a way that it makes that available to multiple OpenSims, instead of just one
*[2011/02/08 10:14] [[User: Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]: Have you seen DIva Canto's WiFi?
*[2011/02/08 10:14] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: its a simple php driven text menu system.. very simple to create
*[2011/02/08 10:14] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: no, what's that
*[2011/02/08 10:14] [[User: Kaline Hax|Kaline Hax]]: it would be easier if fox didnt have people who say canadians are their retarded cousins they wish would go away
*[2011/02/08 10:15] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I saw what Reaction Grid did and was impressed
*[2011/02/08 10:15] [[User: サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)|サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)]]: hey Morgaine
*[2011/02/08 10:15] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: they also have a Unity viewer
*[2011/02/08 10:15] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hi peeps :-)
*[2011/02/08 10:15] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: Kaline, true.
*[2011/02/08 10:15] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: Hey Morgaine :))
*[2011/02/08 10:15] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: hi morgaine
*[2011/02/08 10:15] [[User: Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Wifi
*[2011/02/08 10:15] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Yes Edinburgh University recommended Diva's stuff
*[2011/02/08 10:15] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I'm a fan
*[2011/02/08 10:15] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: brb,
*[2011/02/08 10:15] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Along with their OAR Opensim Archives
*[2011/02/08 10:16] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma): I am gathering notes on Opensim setup to try and make this process easier for others in the future|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma): I am gathering notes on Opensim setup to try and make this process easier for others in the future]]: http://web.mac.com/dfliesen/SunTzu/Blog/Entries/2011/1/6_Setting_up_OpenSim.html
*[2011/02/08 10:17] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Using a 4-server cluster
*[2011/02/08 10:17] [[User: Maccus McCullough: here's where I'm at|Maccus McCullough: here's where I'm at]]: I can either stand up a Military Continent in open sim and just have it hanging out there or I can link up with existing communities. I'd like your opionions
*[2011/02/08 10:17] [[User: Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]: Depends on what you want to use it for, no? Outreach, recruitment, training...
*[2011/02/08 10:18] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: link? how?
*[2011/02/08 10:18] [[User: Melchizedek Blauvelt|Melchizedek Blauvelt]]: I guess a lot depends on to what degreee you'll use your islands for outreach towards citizens
*[2011/02/08 10:18] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: we have seen value in having a public presence
*[2011/02/08 10:18] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: AFK...............................
*[2011/02/08 10:18] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: afk for a few minutes
*[2011/02/08 10:18] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I'm less concerned with outreach and recruitment
*[2011/02/08 10:19] [[User: Kaline Hax|Kaline Hax]]: The military islands have a support group for mility members, friends and family
*[2011/02/08 10:19] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: however, my coworkers are
*[2011/02/08 10:19] [[User: Kaline Hax|Kaline Hax]]: they have activities 3 times a day even.. quite a strong community
*[2011/02/08 10:19] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: yes the OneSource community is very lively
*[2011/02/08 10:19] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: back,
*[2011/02/08 10:19] [[User: Archivist Llewellyn|Archivist Llewellyn]]: It will also depend on copyright and IP if you plan to have people contributing content.
*[2011/02/08 10:19] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: All content will be GPL
*[2011/02/08 10:19] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Horses for courses. Why just have one world? Create multiple different worlds, some purely internal, some gatewayed minimally to public worlds, and some fully integrated.
*[2011/02/08 10:19] [[User: Alisha Matova|Alisha Matova]]: i may be missreading your move to OS. is this program related? http://www.nextgov.com/nextgov/ng_20110203_6055.php?oref=topstory
*[2011/02/08 10:20] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: If.. open sim had Instancing.. that would bring it to the next level
*[2011/02/08 10:20] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: that is the OneSource
*[2011/02/08 10:20] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: they will likely stay in SL for a while
*[2011/02/08 10:20] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: (so much for realiable networks... :(
*[2011/02/08 10:20] [[User: Alisha Matova|Alisha Matova]]: =) thanks, i jsut read about it the other day. glad it is sticking around
*[2011/02/08 10:20] [[User: Melchizedek Blauvelt|Melchizedek Blauvelt]]: If I'm not mistaking you can have it both ways, as in close your grid when you want and open it up for events etc
*[2011/02/08 10:20] [[User: Kaline Hax|Kaline Hax]]: would be nice if you could teleport between virtual worlds witih one viewer
*[2011/02/08 10:20] [[User: Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]: AWM, what do you mean by Instancing?
*[2011/02/08 10:20] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: AWM - define instancing. For the most part, each sim in this model *is* an instance.
*[2011/02/08 10:21] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I agree Kaline
*[2011/02/08 10:21] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: Multiple copies of the same sim
*[2011/02/08 10:21] [[User: Free Radar HUD|Free Radar HUD]]: /me v1.1 by Crystal Gadgets
*[2011/02/08 10:21] [[User: Kaline Hax|Kaline Hax]]: phoenic seems closes to that
*[2011/02/08 10:21] [[User: Archivist Llewellyn|Archivist Llewellyn]]: So people will go there and build, and not be contractors, and contribute content under GPL?
*[2011/02/08 10:21] [[User: Kaline Hax|Kaline Hax]]: pheonix
*[2011/02/08 10:21] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: but only requires one on the HD
*[2011/02/08 10:21] [[User: NullSubset Burner|NullSubset Burner]]: There are a couple of long stanjding Human effectiveness initatives from Darpa(one using opensim) might be worth a look- perhaps?
*[2011/02/08 10:21] [[User: Alisha Matova|Alisha Matova]]: darpa has an OS? wow
*[2011/02/08 10:22] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: we have infinite instances of our worlds :).. uses a few mb's for 1,000's of worlds and we can support over 5,000 users per instance
*[2011/02/08 10:22] [[User: Maccus McCullough: Archivist|Maccus McCullough: Archivist]]: If they want to participate, yes. People can still get paid for their work, but if the gov't pays for it, it will be GPL'd
*[2011/02/08 10:22] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I want to avoid having to pay for the same content over and over
*[2011/02/08 10:23] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: that is not a sustainable model
*[2011/02/08 10:23] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: thats what Instancing does for you Maccus..
*[2011/02/08 10:23] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: same as page geometry for landscaping
*[2011/02/08 10:23] [[User: Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]: AWM, which software are your worlds based on?
*[2011/02/08 10:24] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I agree AWM - we follow that model in Teleplace
*[2011/02/08 10:24] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: we use many, some are alpa, based upon the new MPEG formats Mpeg V and U, some OpenGL Ogre
*[2011/02/08 10:24] [[User: Kaline Hax|Kaline Hax]]: if you didnt know about second life.. and virtual worlds.. this conversation would look like lines from a star trek movie
*[2011/02/08 10:24] [[User: Archivist Llewellyn|Archivist Llewellyn]]: I would recommend against the "volunteer model" where people are expected to contribute content and services for free indefinitely.
*[2011/02/08 10:24] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: that is not a reliable model
*[2011/02/08 10:24] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I agree
*[2011/02/08 10:24] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: In the past, we have used Aimee Weber
*[2011/02/08 10:24] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: she was wonderful to work with
*[2011/02/08 10:25] [[User: Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]: Sorry AWM, I don't understand how you can have those numbers with a 3D world.
*[2011/02/08 10:25] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: That's one reason why SL is not a viable platform for Edu, it doesn't support open licenced content. Linden business depends to a degree on skimming commission from content creation, which is why they are so unhelpful on open content.
*[2011/02/08 10:25] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: She did development in our SLE too
*[2011/02/08 10:25] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: Unity can do/support Instancing.. as well as Page Geometry
*[2011/02/08 10:25] [[User: Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]: Ah, so you are using Unity?
*[2011/02/08 10:25] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I have a unity viewer from Tipodean for our Open Sim
*[2011/02/08 10:26] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: easy.. but its not viable without mesh based page geometry, based upon hardware profiles
*[2011/02/08 10:26] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: its interesting, but not ready for prime time just yet
*[2011/02/08 10:26] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: agreed
*[2011/02/08 10:26] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: What's page geometry?
*[2011/02/08 10:26] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: no, we are not using unity.. I said alpha based platforms based upon the new MPEG formats, due to be Beta releases later this year
*[2011/02/08 10:27] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: AWM - perhaps you could talk about that in more detail, at a later time?
*[2011/02/08 10:27] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: atm MPEG only streams in one direction, soon it will stream both ways, and use collaboration techniques built in.. along with mpeg codecs etc
*[2011/02/08 10:27] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: The attraction OpenSim provides is we now fully control the environment
*[2011/02/08 10:27] [[User: Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]: AWM, formats are relevant for the client side. I am asking how you can have thousands of users on the server with just a few mbs.
*[2011/02/08 10:28] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: the suffix V and U means V=Virtual U=Unity (collaboration)
*[2011/02/08 10:28] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: Licensing has been a real headache
*[2011/02/08 10:28] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I've been trying to contact the OS Grid admins/project leads
*[2011/02/08 10:28] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: Our collaboaration server can handle over 5,000 users at a time, and they can be all in the same instance of any world/scene
*[2011/02/08 10:29] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: do you think we would be welcomed?
*[2011/02/08 10:29] [[User: Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]: Maccus, are you on IRC?
*[2011/02/08 10:29] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: not at the moment
*[2011/02/08 10:29] [[User: Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]: Nebadon (main OSGrid guy) is there almost constantly
*[2011/02/08 10:29] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: Beyond.. you will need to read up on the MPEG consortium's work over the past 2 years
*[2011/02/08 10:29] [[User: Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]: Very easy to catch there
*[2011/02/08 10:29] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: will do, thank you
*[2011/02/08 10:29] [[User: Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]: AWM, cut it out
*[2011/02/08 10:29] [[User: Free Radar HUD|Free Radar HUD]]: /me v1.1 by Crystal Gadgets
*[2011/02/08 10:30] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: MPEG will open up the amount of connections/users that can collaborate, along with cloud computing,
*[2011/02/08 10:30] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: wb Joey
*[2011/02/08 10:30] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Sorry My ISP dropped the line
*[2011/02/08 10:30] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: cut what out? You asked a question, I tried to answer it.
*[2011/02/08 10:30] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: why would u want mpg to stream both ways? to watch somebody watch a movie?
*[2011/02/08 10:30] [[User: Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]: AWM, having a persistent 3D world on the server is disjoint from formaty issues.
*[2011/02/08 10:31] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Why are we talking about MPEG?
*[2011/02/08 10:31] [[User: Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]: You are just evading questions
*[2011/02/08 10:31] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: bah.. read the MPEG's work.. then you will understand..
*[2011/02/08 10:31] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: Maccus - would there be any issues with having the millitary do work in OpenSim, w.r.t. being able to contribute to open source software?
*[2011/02/08 10:31] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: AWM|Morgaine Dinova: AWM]]: wanna explain something, or just keep repeating yourself?
*[2011/02/08 10:32] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: We would like to
*[2011/02/08 10:32] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: if i have to read it to understand it that means is complicated, or u don't wan't, or can't explain it in a few sentences:)
*[2011/02/08 10:32] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: thanks JB
*[2011/02/08 10:32] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: We have significant resources that could be brought in to help
*[2011/02/08 10:32] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: hard to do so, when you have no idea what I'm talking about, and think MPEG is for watching movies only..
*[2011/02/08 10:32] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: we don't want to be seen as "taking over"
*[2011/02/08 10:32] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: well, substantial resources would seem like a welcome thing, when they are scarce...
*[2011/02/08 10:33] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: We have toyed with the idea of taking a branch of the OS code and making a secured "militarized" version
*[2011/02/08 10:33] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: but that is not a good long term plan
*[2011/02/08 10:33] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I dont want a HiPiHi
*[2011/02/08 10:33] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Want to stay with innovation, best way is to keep linkage with commercial side in my humble opinion
*[2011/02/08 10:33] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: that's right
*[2011/02/08 10:33] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: AWM|Morgaine Dinova: AWM]]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG -- that's the "MPEG" we're talking about. You must be referring to something different
*[2011/02/08 10:34] [[User: サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)|サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)]]: MPEG-4 and higher numbers talk about 2-way communication. Don't know if anyone has actually implemented that
*[2011/02/08 10:34] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I'd rather create an open platform and allow my contemporaries to enclave it at will, pumping secure information into it safely
*[2011/02/08 10:34] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: unless i am wrong it seem that AWM is trying to push to Maccus his/hers grid or VW. am i wrong AWM?
*[2011/02/08 10:35] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: That way you let industry help drive innovation
*[2011/02/08 10:35] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: No way of knowing, since AWM refuses to give any actual info
*[2011/02/08 10:35] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I am toying with the idea of bounties
*[2011/02/08 10:35] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: bouties? for what?
*[2011/02/08 10:35] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: Maccus - any timeline for this.. in general terms?
*[2011/02/08 10:35] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: it is ongoing, so now
*[2011/02/08 10:35] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: hmm... Joey the Bounty Hunter...like the sound of that
*[2011/02/08 10:36] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: bounties for bug fixes or innovative additions to OS
*[2011/02/08 10:36] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: heh
*[2011/02/08 10:36] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: Doh... I already said MPEG V and U formats are being developed and will probably be released later this year
*[2011/02/08 10:36] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: make it more of an ongoing competition for innovation
*[2011/02/08 10:36] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: that is right
*[2011/02/08 10:36] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: will those bouties be above 10k USD?
*[2011/02/08 10:36] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: inport/export of mesh for example
*[2011/02/08 10:36] [[User: NullSubset Burner|NullSubset Burner]]: lol
*[2011/02/08 10:37] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: of course
*[2011/02/08 10:37] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: well, the Challenge model seems to work...
*[2011/02/08 10:37] [[User: サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)|サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)]]: Maccus, that already exists in realXtend and Wonderland
*[2011/02/08 10:37] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: The challenge is intersting
*[2011/02/08 10:37] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: import/export to/from what formats?
*[2011/02/08 10:37] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: collada would be a good start
*[2011/02/08 10:37] [[User: Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]: Collada is the obvious choice, and iED has it working
*[2011/02/08 10:37] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: That is what iED using
*[2011/02/08 10:38] [[User: Beyond Baroque: A tip|Beyond Baroque: A tip]]: http://members.immersiveeducation.org/user/register
*[2011/02/08 10:38] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I'd want to do somethign with a faster reaction time than the challenge. The challenge is meant for "big picture" solutions to problems
*[2011/02/08 10:38] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: have a look here http://mpeg.chiariglione.org/working_documents.htm
*[2011/02/08 10:38] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: And realXtend has implemented iED's Collada format, as was showin in the iED intro video
*[2011/02/08 10:38] [[User: Xon Emoto|Xon Emoto]]: Collada's also wideley distributed on the Google warehouse, isn't it?
*[2011/02/08 10:38] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: MPEG-V (Information Exchange with Virtual Worlds)
*[2011/02/08 10:38] [[User: Melchizedek Blauvelt|Melchizedek Blauvelt]]: yes Xon
*[2011/02/08 10:38] [[User: Xon Emoto|Xon Emoto]]: and it goes right into Cobalt, if I remember right
*[2011/02/08 10:38] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I demonstrated the import of a collada model directly into Teleplace at last year's Gametech
*[2011/02/08 10:39] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: what do u want to export/import from collada? collada is just a file format. is not a program
*[2011/02/08 10:39] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: dropped a Hummer into a conference room
*[2011/02/08 10:39] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Another aspect to consider is cloud video streaming servers for OpenSim
*[2011/02/08 10:39] [[User: Xon Emoto|Xon Emoto]]: LOL
*[2011/02/08 10:39] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: /me saw it... nice :)
*[2011/02/08 10:39] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: one use case for the military is collaborative engineering
*[2011/02/08 10:39] [[User: Archivist Llewellyn|Archivist Llewellyn]]: Do the challenge winners give up their copyright?
*[2011/02/08 10:39] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: no
*[2011/02/08 10:39] [[User: Archivist Llewellyn|Archivist Llewellyn]]: ok
*[2011/02/08 10:40] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: We didn't last year for the FVWC, so I expect not
*[2011/02/08 10:40] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: We try to respect people's IP
*[2011/02/08 10:40] [[User: Archivist Llewellyn|Archivist Llewellyn]]: ok
*[2011/02/08 10:40] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: so it would be interesting to import a model of a weapon
*[2011/02/08 10:40] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: let engineers from all over the states look at it and make mods
*[2011/02/08 10:40] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: copies
*[2011/02/08 10:40] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: etc...
*[2011/02/08 10:41] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: then save out that work back to say autocad
*[2011/02/08 10:41] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: using collada as the interchange
*[2011/02/08 10:41] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_Picture_Experts_Group
*[2011/02/08 10:41] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Archivist|Morgaine Dinova: Archivist]]: you retain copyright, but don't forget it's open-licensed for free distribution.
*[2011/02/08 10:41] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: maccus. u didn't say what u want to convert to and from collada. will that be the prims, the sculpties, the meshes, or all three?
*[2011/02/08 10:42] [[User: Kaline Hax|Kaline Hax]]: sorry folks i need to run to a client meeting
*[2011/02/08 10:42] [[User: Kaline Hax|Kaline Hax]]: have enjoyed the conversation
*[2011/02/08 10:42] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: unfortunately LL picked the most interchange unfriendly geometric representation scheme possible
*[2011/02/08 10:42] [[User: Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]: AWM, MPEG-V is an attempt to standardize interop formats, and as you've been told repeatedly, that has nothing to do with the ability of a server to maintain a persistent 3D world with thousands of users on meagre hardware resources
*[2011/02/08 10:42] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: SL is simply a viewer in my mind
*[2011/02/08 10:43] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: the content should be transportable
*[2011/02/08 10:43] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: wonderland, telelplace, whatever
*[2011/02/08 10:43] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I should be able to whip out my work and show it
*[2011/02/08 10:43] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: note I said "my" work
*[2011/02/08 10:43] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: Archivist is about to hyperventalate
*[2011/02/08 10:43] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: The SL viewer is a viewer (obviously), but SL isn't a viewer, it's a world. One of many.
*[2011/02/08 10:43] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: not everybody makes gpl things in here
*[2011/02/08 10:44] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: heh
*[2011/02/08 10:44] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: geez.. and I already said, we have a collaboration server that connects 5,000 users, into a single instance.. never mentioned MPEG being the software/format of the server software.. only the streaming format for interoperability/collaboration data formats
*[2011/02/08 10:44] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Make once use in multiple places
*[2011/02/08 10:44] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I understand, Rex - but the rules for participation need to be established
*[2011/02/08 10:44] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: And as DoD makes the use of virtual worlds better for their use, it will also be better for commercial use
*[2011/02/08 10:44] [[User: Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]: AWM, you brought up MPEG when asked how you achieved those numbers. Not somebody else.
*[2011/02/08 10:44] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: SL is a closed, walled garden, that's why. But there is no future in that.
*[2011/02/08 10:44] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I agree
*[2011/02/08 10:44] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: the V and U formats are the data streaming.. not the programmes that will utilise that format.
*[2011/02/08 10:44] [[User: Archivist Llewellyn: Morgaine...I meant the challenge, is that what you meant re|Archivist Llewellyn: Morgaine...I meant the challenge, is that what you meant re]]: open license?
*[2011/02/08 10:45] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: There is a VW.mil working group I am a part of
*[2011/02/08 10:45] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: I would also like to see a Metaverse storefront that works for many virtual worlds to get content
*[2011/02/08 10:45] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: the OSD is interested in establishing policy for virtual world usage
*[2011/02/08 10:45] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: i know a guy who origally setup the LInden Lab store on the web
*[2011/02/08 10:45] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Archivist|Morgaine Dinova: Archivist]]: both code and content. The code will be GPL'd, that's already been said. And content needs to be open-licensed, since repeatedly paying for the same content just doesn't scale.
*[2011/02/08 10:46] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: The server software is inhouse, not public release.. it can control 5,000 connections/users into a single instance
*[2011/02/08 10:46] [[User: Alisha Matova|Alisha Matova]]: /i have to run off to next meeting too. interesting moves Maccus=) *waves
*[2011/02/08 10:46] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: feel free to IM, Alisha
*[2011/02/08 10:46] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: take care
*[2011/02/08 10:46] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: well macus, why don't u make a site that lists what the army needs, and other pertinent info?
*[2011/02/08 10:46] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: Maccus - what role is NDU playing in this?
*[2011/02/08 10:46] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: like how much it pays, and for what...
*[2011/02/08 10:47] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: it doesn't quite work that way , Rex - but we do things like sponsor IITSEC, GameTech, and the FCVW
*[2011/02/08 10:47] [[User: Melchizedek Blauvelt|Melchizedek Blauvelt]]: who can contribute...US citizens? NATO citizens,...?
*[2011/02/08 10:47] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: We talk to industry at great length and participate in activities like this
*[2011/02/08 10:47] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: I would be willing to setup some OpenSims and work with you, Maccus
*[2011/02/08 10:47] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: how r people that r interested going to know what u want and what r u prepared to give for it?
*[2011/02/08 10:47] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: Fantastic
*[2011/02/08 10:49] [[User: Beyond Baroque: The usual|Beyond Baroque: The usual]]: web site, SL group, IRC room...
*[2011/02/08 10:49] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: Rex, you can participate in the conferences
*[2011/02/08 10:49] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: AWM|Morgaine Dinova: AWM]]: if your software is in-house, not public release, then you can understand why nobody cares tuppence what you're doing.
*[2011/02/08 10:49] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: we have 40 sims at MiLands you can come see us
*[2011/02/08 10:49] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: An Internet Relay Chatroom is a good idea
*[2011/02/08 10:49] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: lol.. well.. I guess someone said as much about someone who said.. I have opensim.. not public atm.. we will release it..
*[2011/02/08 10:50] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: IMO having a site shows comitment and professionalism:)
*[2011/02/08 10:50] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: Rex, you can sign up for participation at GameTech through SL
*[2011/02/08 10:50] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: what conferences
*[2011/02/08 10:50] [[User: JB Hancroft: Here is one, Rex|JB Hancroft: Here is one, Rex]]: http://www.iitsec.org/Pages/default.aspx
*[2011/02/08 10:51] [[User: JB Hancroft: another|JB Hancroft: another]]: http://www.teamorlando.org/gametech/
*[2011/02/08 10:51] [[User: Maccus McCullough: Here's another|Maccus McCullough: Here's another]]: http://www.fvwc.army.mil/
*[2011/02/08 10:51] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: my advice Rex, is to become more familiar with "google"
*[2011/02/08 10:51] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: I/ITSEC is the largest training event for the U.S. Military each year
*[2011/02/08 10:51] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: My company has an exhibit there each year
*[2011/02/08 10:51] [[User: サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)|サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)]]: BTW, for those who aren't members of AW Groupies but would like to participate in our onlgoing discussions without joining, #irc @irc.freenode.net echos our group IM
*[2011/02/08 10:51] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I like to meet the participants in person
*[2011/02/08 10:51] [[User: Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]: SL Search shows a MiLands Senate group, but is seems closed
*[2011/02/08 10:51] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: but I guess its the same with the outcome of the mpeg google search carried out...
*[2011/02/08 10:51] [[User: Archivist Llewellyn|Archivist Llewellyn]]: quick question about IRC.... where do LL tos stand on chat relay to an from SL, say between virtual worlds or the web?
*[2011/02/08 10:52] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: It is only for Military Personnel
*[2011/02/08 10:52] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: AWM|Morgaine Dinova: AWM]]: what's your licensing? After the MPGE-LA disaster of h.264 which is keeping the whole world hostage to some cretins, we don't wanna go there.
*[2011/02/08 10:52] [[User: サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)|サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)]]: they haven't told us to stop doing it, archivist
*[2011/02/08 10:52] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I can answer any quesitons you have regarding MiLands
*[2011/02/08 10:52] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: i am familiar with online search, but first i need to know what i search for:)
*[2011/02/08 10:52] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: MPEG-LA*
*[2011/02/08 10:52] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: thanks for the links:)
*[2011/02/08 10:52] [[User: Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]: You could have a MiLands Groupies group :)
*[2011/02/08 10:52] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: Rex, I said over and over MPEG U and V formats
*[2011/02/08 10:53] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: anyways... now you have the links.. you can read up on those...
*[2011/02/08 10:53] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: AWM|Morgaine Dinova: AWM]]: what's your licensing? After the MPEG-LA disaster of h.264 which is keeping the whole world hostage to some cretins, we don't wanna go there.
*[2011/02/08 10:54] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: Sorry I just arrived. Was there a preferred URL for MiLands?
*[2011/02/08 10:54] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: I'm not here to 'sell' mpeg formats. just make you aware of the potential of them.
*[2011/02/08 10:55] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: The cental island is http://slurl.com/secondlife/Coalition%20Island/128/128/2
*[2011/02/08 10:55] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: The potential to tie VWs up in royalty payments, you mean?
*[2011/02/08 10:55] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: Hi Dahlia, I've been trying to get in touch with you
*[2011/02/08 10:55] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: What is the participation like from different services, Maccus?
*[2011/02/08 10:55] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: we are developing our own inhouse solutions for collaboration/interopability, using the mpeg formats for data moving..
*[2011/02/08 10:55] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Have the Marines joined yet?
*[2011/02/08 10:55] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: hahaha
*[2011/02/08 10:55] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: AWM|Morgaine Dinova: AWM]]: what's your licensing?
*[2011/02/08 10:55] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: The Marines have been "resistant"
*[2011/02/08 10:55] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: Hi :)
*[2011/02/08 10:56] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: for what?
*[2011/02/08 10:56] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: hi dahlia
*[2011/02/08 10:56] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: We should have Gibbs in here from NCIS;. Maybe that would bring them. LOL
*[2011/02/08 10:56] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: heh Joey
*[2011/02/08 10:56] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: you deserve a head-slap for that
*[2011/02/08 10:56] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: The marines are more mission oriented and want hands on training
*[2011/02/08 10:56] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: ouch
*[2011/02/08 10:56] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: On it boss
*[2011/02/08 10:56] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: AWM|Morgaine Dinova: AWM]]: for the whole package deal. We have the horrid precedent of the MPEG-LA holding the world hostage for royalty payments for h.264
*[2011/02/08 10:57] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: And that's a total disaster which we don't want to repeat
*[2011/02/08 10:57] [[User: NullSubset Burner|NullSubset Burner]]: i.e if it doent explode burn or fragment- they have 0 intrest:P
*[2011/02/08 10:57] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: What about USCG?
*[2011/02/08 10:57] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: the USCG is very interested
*[2011/02/08 10:57] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: I know they helped with the Disaster Zone
*[2011/02/08 10:57] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: they are still in a mode of developing unitaskers
*[2011/02/08 10:57] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: I crashed... did you comment on the role of Nat'l Defense Univ?
*[2011/02/08 10:57] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: the future is re-use and extensibility
*[2011/02/08 10:57] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: NDU is critical
*[2011/02/08 10:57] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Maccus++
*[2011/02/08 10:57] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: have to find ways to do more with less
*[2011/02/08 10:58] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Innovation will lead to using this technology more
*[2011/02/08 10:58] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: Paulette Robinson is leading the Federal Consortium for Virtual Worlds
*[2011/02/08 10:58] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: she's a wonder person to work with
*[2011/02/08 10:58] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Hear she has funding battles these days
*[2011/02/08 10:58] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: /me nods, agreeing
*[2011/02/08 10:58] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Agree totally. Encumbered formats just don't scale as we need
*[2011/02/08 10:58] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: you are talking gibberish.. 'the whole package'? I'm not selling any package.. I was talking about the MPEG formats, being an important development for VR. Our own solutions, currently in alpha and beta, are coming along very well, in tandem with the mpeg consortiums... some will be released to the public.. along with countless others.
*[2011/02/08 10:58] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Like much of DOD
*[2011/02/08 10:58] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: Maccus - do you maintain any sort of "interested parties" list of emails... ?
*[2011/02/08 10:59] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I do
*[2011/02/08 10:59] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I have the MiLands mailing list and the Military Users of Virtual Worlds list
*[2011/02/08 10:59] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: /me looks up www.maccus-secret-vw-skunkworks.com
*[2011/02/08 10:59] [[User: NullSubset Burner|NullSubset Burner]]: Does Paulette have a webpage- mabye Marcus?(wanders off to look)
*[2011/02/08 10:59] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: look up FCVW
*[2011/02/08 10:59] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: AWM|Morgaine Dinova: AWM]]: I see you're refusing to acknowlege the problem with the MPEG-LA and h.264. I have to assume that MPEG-V is also tied up in royalties in the same way. No thank you.
*[2011/02/08 10:59] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I am slowly converging my two large lists
*[2011/02/08 11:00] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: MiLands is a SL users "subset'
*[2011/02/08 11:00] [[User: NullSubset Burner|NullSubset Burner]]: thx
*[2011/02/08 11:00] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: and... GuSL ?
*[2011/02/08 11:00] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: what has h.264 format got to do with me? I dont work for, have shares with, own anything to do with MPEG
*[2011/02/08 11:00] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: /me headslaps JB for fake Skunkwords URL
*[2011/02/08 11:00] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: ouch
*[2011/02/08 11:00] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: you are fixated in a format that has noting to do with what I am reffering to.. MPEG U and V formats..
*[2011/02/08 11:01] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: haha
*[2011/02/08 11:01] [[User: NullSubset Burner|NullSubset Burner]]: http://network.associationofvirtualworlds.com/profile/PauletteRobinson
*[2011/02/08 11:01] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: made you look ;)
*[2011/02/08 11:01] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I'm afraid my really good stuff is behind a firewall
*[2011/02/08 11:01] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Saij - what URL do you post notes from these meetings?
*[2011/02/08 11:01] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: now you're channeling AWM ;)
*[2011/02/08 11:02] [[User: サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)|サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)]]: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies#Chat_Logs
*[2011/02/08 11:02] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: TY
*[2011/02/08 11:02] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Just missed some thigns
*[2011/02/08 11:02] [[User: サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)|サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)]]: I'll make sure this one goes up. I've been, well, remiss for a few months
*[2011/02/08 11:02] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: AWM|Morgaine Dinova: AWM]]: You're pimping MPEG formats, and you've made no statement about them being unencumbered. The last time this happened, we ended up with the MPEG-LA holding the world hostage for royalties on h.264. That's what's relevant. And we won't touch that situation with a bargepole in VWs.
*[2011/02/08 11:02] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Ahh RealXtend here
*[2011/02/08 11:03] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: greetings, yes, I'm Toni Alatalo, currently working as the principal architect of realXtend
*[2011/02/08 11:03] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: Morgaine.. thats your freedom of choice.. like it is mine to talk about it to others.. if you dont want to use it.. fine, no skin off my nose..
*[2011/02/08 11:03] [[User: サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)|サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)]]: Python is lead programmer for realXtend
*[2011/02/08 11:03] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: Its a pleasure to meet you Python
*[2011/02/08 11:03] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: lets pretend that I care.. which I dont
*[2011/02/08 11:03] [[User: Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]: Hi Python. Pardon my being blunt, but can you address the rumors that realXtend has basically run out of money?
*[2011/02/08 11:03] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Aha, so at long last AWM is coming clear. He's trying to find more willing slaves for the royalty machine that is the MPEG-LA.
*[2011/02/08 11:04] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: hello
*[2011/02/08 11:04] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: AWM... perhaps another time?
*[2011/02/08 11:04] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: a bit bad timing for these things here in Finland, we have two small kids and have been putting them to sleep etc .. one is already, i need to help a little bit with the other one still :)
*[2011/02/08 11:04] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Welcome, Python :-)
*[2011/02/08 11:04] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: Python :)
*[2011/02/08 11:05] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Nice to have so many virtual worlds all in 1 room
*[2011/02/08 11:05] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Python|Morgaine Dinova: Python]]: we were really interested to see the iED videos showing realXtend support for the iED Collada formats :-)
*[2011/02/08 11:05] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: :-)
*[2011/02/08 11:06] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: Hi Python :)
*[2011/02/08 11:06] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: ya banged me to rights Morgaine... I'm really here to sell you all a h.264 formatted server that will support over 5 million users... all for a measily $50k... no wait, thats SLE.. based upon the L.I.E.S. format
*[2011/02/08 11:06] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Beyond, heh, that sounds quite a misunderstanding of what reX is :)
*[2011/02/08 11:06] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: while back i proposed that our weekly meeting be held at different times each week so that people from different time zone can participate
*[2011/02/08 11:06] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: ok done with the kids now, can concentrate
*[2011/02/08 11:07] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Is RealXtend more integrated with a LMS than other OpenSim solutions?
*[2011/02/08 11:07] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: I saw a bit on use with SLOODLE, but not sure about the differences
*[2011/02/08 11:07] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: ...
*[2011/02/08 11:08] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: has anyone considerd RealXtend with SCORM?
*[2011/02/08 11:08] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Beyond, but it is true that there is change (not for the first time), and we haven't communicated much about that yet. basically one project ended, and resulted in starting of a foundation and we are forming an association (anyone is free to join). but basically reX is just about collaboration of anyone who wants to use and dev it, and none of the companies that use and dev it have gone bankcrupt so far :)
*[2011/02/08 11:08] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: I am looking for jsut that Maccus
*[2011/02/08 11:08] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: SLOODLE has been used for SCORM I understand
*[2011/02/08 11:09] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: AWM|Morgaine Dinova: AWM]]: what I'm doing is trying to provoke you into saying "No, MPEG-V is free of royalties of any kind, so the worries over the bad precedent of the MPEG-LA royalties over h.264 is not relevant". But I have no succeeded in making you say that, so either you don't know about licensing for MPEG-V, or you're aware of the licensing encumbrances but won't say. Either way, it's not appealing.
*[2011/02/08 11:09] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I'm surprised lightning didn't strike
*[2011/02/08 11:09] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: For those not familiar with SCORM, it's a set of standards for military training to be reusable
*[2011/02/08 11:09] [[User: Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]: Sounds good Python, do you have a URL for those interested in joining the association?
*[2011/02/08 11:09] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: heh Maccus
*[2011/02/08 11:09] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I can see the group feels strongly about MPEG
*[2011/02/08 11:09] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Joey, what's LMS? learning management or something? traditionally, reX is opensim based so on the server side the things are basically the same .. it's just a couple of modules added, nothing removed
*[2011/02/08 11:09] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: No, AWM does ;)
*[2011/02/08 11:10] [[User: サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)|サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)]]: Morgaine does. I remain hopefully neutral on future MPEG ventures
*[2011/02/08 11:10] [[User: Rk Jinn|Rk Jinn]]: Moodle supports SCORM, Sloodle connects to moodle.
*[2011/02/08 11:10] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: Learning Management System. SCORM is one of the primary formats of sending into into and getting results back from learning instances, into long-term records and such
*[2011/02/08 11:10] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: I'm not here to defend MPEG formats.. I only brought the new formats to this meetings attention... what you choose to do woth it, I don't give a dam.. IF you find them as interesting and useful as I do, along with countless others, fine.. go in peace.. but stop trying to make me defend something I dont own.
*[2011/02/08 11:10] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: with*
*[2011/02/08 11:11] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: OK thanks, Python. I was looking at Sloodle to start. but my company has it's own LMS solutions too for a tailored learning approach
*[2011/02/08 11:11] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Maccus|Morgaine Dinova: Maccus]]: nobody like to be slave to a patent-encumbered format that limits your scalability to the size of your wallet.
*[2011/02/08 11:11] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: I'm done talking with you about h.264 and licenses etc..
*[2011/02/08 11:11] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Beyond B, sorry, not yet - we've been a bit of a limbo 'cause are waiting for the foundation part to get all the paperwork done, and are also waiting for one guy who's job it is to get the association going to get the paperwork there too. others are just focusing on the code and projects, basically you can join by joining the email lists or irc channels :)
*[2011/02/08 11:11] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: Has anyone discussed the server side 3D rendering systems such at OTOY or OnLive?
*[2011/02/08 11:11] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: TY AWM. Wondered when we end that topic
*[2011/02/08 11:12] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: so what does the DoD want?-)
*[2011/02/08 11:12] [[User: Maccus McCullough: Morgaine|Maccus McCullough: Morgaine]]: agreed
*[2011/02/08 11:12] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: peace
*[2011/02/08 11:12] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: I can imagine great use of thigns like OnLive in approach
*[2011/02/08 11:12] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Having training were you use slow computers with cloud services in a VW
*[2011/02/08 11:12] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: And it runs fast
*[2011/02/08 11:12] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: the biggest issue we've had with the server side rendering is the costs
*[2011/02/08 11:12] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: I think they will go down over time
*[2011/02/08 11:13] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Or if we build towards the capability
*[2011/02/08 11:13] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: you need serious server capacity to pull it off, as well as networking pipes
*[2011/02/08 11:13] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: of the GPU components, or the hosting, or bandwidth?
*[2011/02/08 11:13] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: /mw waits for M. to say "yes"
*[2011/02/08 11:13] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: for example the USNexus approach literally has 1 user per server
*[2011/02/08 11:13] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: that's crazy
*[2011/02/08 11:13] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Is any of the virtual drives work being tested for that yet? Like running multiple Virtual Drives to work as clouds?
*[2011/02/08 11:13] [[User: Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]: I am permanently baffled by server side rendering. Puts the cost on the server side, does not scale.
*[2011/02/08 11:14] [[User: AWM Mars|AWM Mars]]: afk..
*[2011/02/08 11:14] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: that's a lot of expense to address our security issues
*[2011/02/08 11:14] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Well another concept that I think LL missed from the game engines is use of middleware for security
*[2011/02/08 11:14] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: about SCORM and such and realXtend, how we see it in the base tech is that we try to make useful basics, and easy extension points so that integration to whatever is easy. basically the same as in vanilla opensim, you can write your own region etc. modules, or own authentication connectors or whatever. but in our case the viewer is modular and extensible too, so you can do fully custom GUIs etc easily (in python or javascript)
*[2011/02/08 11:14] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: Well put Joey
*[2011/02/08 11:14] [[User: サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn): daring to raise his own standard|サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn): daring to raise his own standard]]: one plausible use for SiliconSqueak will be for virtual worlds streaming
*[2011/02/08 11:14] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: They have a solution that protects it from getting hacked
*[2011/02/08 11:15] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: SO they don't have to be locked into one solution for server-client allocations
*[2011/02/08 11:15] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: /me lost to pool on how long it would take Saij to get to Squeak. darn!
*[2011/02/08 11:15] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: personally I think encrypting all data before it leaves memory would solve a lot of problems
*[2011/02/08 11:15] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Has DOD been testing WebGL yet?
*[2011/02/08 11:15] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: yes
*[2011/02/08 11:15] [[User: サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)|サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)]]: you should have told me earlier, JB
*[2011/02/08 11:16] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: David Smith at LMCO is doing a study we commissioned to look at future VWT, given our restrictive operating environments
*[2011/02/08 11:16] [[User: サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)|サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)]]: VWT?
*[2011/02/08 11:16] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: I think WebGL will be frist to mobile devices
*[2011/02/08 11:16] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: Lockheeds approach is in part centered on WebGL
*[2011/02/08 11:16] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: we've been testing webgl too, have a kind of a 0.1 level client, 'WebNaali', using websockets and webgl
*[2011/02/08 11:16] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: virtual world technology
*[2011/02/08 11:16] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Nice
*[2011/02/08 11:17] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I can only get it to work reliably on Chrome Canary
*[2011/02/08 11:17] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I have ported some of my old openGL homework from college
*[2011/02/08 11:17] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: ALso Unity 3D is close to a plugin-less application
*[2011/02/08 11:17] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Joey, i'm also curious of webgl and mobile devices, 'cause our company (playsign) makes graphically quite simple iphone and such games
*[2011/02/08 11:17] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: once Unity 3D has a "no plugin" option, they will take off
*[2011/02/08 11:17] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: I think so too
*[2011/02/08 11:17] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: the DoD needs that desperately
*[2011/02/08 11:18] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Joye, you mean a webgl javascript version of Unity 3d? have been wondering about that too
*[2011/02/08 11:18] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: my current projects all have a web component
*[2011/02/08 11:18] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Ohh found great training resource for Unity at Design3.com
*[2011/02/08 11:18] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I like the option of running on heavy gaming gear and scaling down to portables
*[2011/02/08 11:18] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Would be nice to have multiple LODs and have the game engine scale for you eventaully
*[2011/02/08 11:19] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: the LOD issues is scary to me
*[2011/02/08 11:19] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: the LL implementation seems so static... pre-calc'd
*[2011/02/08 11:19] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: you essentially have to rebuild the content for each level
*[2011/02/08 11:19] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: reX Naali/Tundra stuff can be seen as an open source unity3d, has similar entity-component model and extensible networking etc. the level editing part we try to have with blender integration. i think it's nice to have these options, and both proprietary and open source tools, 'cause different things tend to have different strengths
*[2011/02/08 11:19] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: I think for LODs need to look at what the commercial animation industry has been doing in the past
*[2011/02/08 11:19] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: ++Joey
*[2011/02/08 11:19] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: WE can learn much from Pixar and others
*[2011/02/08 11:19] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: the LL implementation of vertex decomposition is designed to be fast, not good
*[2011/02/08 11:19] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: (light)
*[2011/02/08 11:20] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: remember this client is less than 50Mb-ish
*[2011/02/08 11:20] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: WoW is what, 8Gb?
*[2011/02/08 11:20] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: Starcraft is...4Gb?
*[2011/02/08 11:20] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I am constantly having to defend and compare apples to apples
*[2011/02/08 11:20] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Or like Blue Mars where you download the sims you want to visit
*[2011/02/08 11:20] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: poor BM
*[2011/02/08 11:21] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: user-created content can't be sent down ahead of time, in the same scalable terms, though...
*[2011/02/08 11:21] [[User: Melchizedek Blauvelt|Melchizedek Blauvelt]]: WoW is 27.1Gb
*[2011/02/08 11:21] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Personally I like much of the approach they used with the SIMS
*[2011/02/08 11:21] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: i wouldn't mind downloading a pack in some cases
*[2011/02/08 11:21] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: Right, WoW is huge when you put it all together
*[2011/02/08 11:21] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: OTOH have been toying with the idea of testing using bittorrent for asset distribution for some worlds :)
*[2011/02/08 11:21] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Center the experience and data around the avatar instead of the phycisal land
*[2011/02/08 11:21] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I'll give you guys a great example
*[2011/02/08 11:21] [[User: Melchizedek Blauvelt|Melchizedek Blauvelt]]: That is with the 3 expansions though, yes
*[2011/02/08 11:22] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I have a 24km x 24km region of Afghanistan built out for a game engine called Big World
*[2011/02/08 11:22] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: it is 8.5Gb
*[2011/02/08 11:22] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: just for the terrain
*[2011/02/08 11:22] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: ah Big World
*[2011/02/08 11:22] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: we are starting to look into how to implement large worlds
*[2011/02/08 11:23] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: So it's tiny, you're saying.
*[2011/02/08 11:23] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: has been not urgent for us yet, but now one spanish company says they need it
*[2011/02/08 11:23] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Why not just rez what you need when you need it? Instead of rezzing regions that weigh down a viewer, just go to the point of view from the avatar's view
*[2011/02/08 11:23] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: Intel Corp has some amazing new work coming out in Open Sim. I can currently do 750 avatars on a prototype.
*[2011/02/08 11:23] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: so far the best approach i've seen, at least a nice idea, is from the sirikata guys .. it might be similar to Big World
*[2011/02/08 11:23] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Rez on the fly
*[2011/02/08 11:23] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: We are trying to recreate an operationally accurate environment.
*[2011/02/08 11:23] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: "things" are simply far apart
*[2011/02/08 11:24] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: based on proximity
*[2011/02/08 11:24] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Maccus, i take that is the server side client manager / proxy stuff that Dan Lake and those folks were working on?
*[2011/02/08 11:24] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: the sirikata/Meru approach is based on proximity too .. just a sec i dig the refs
*[2011/02/08 11:24] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: Its Dr. Mic Bowman and Chris Collins (ex Logan Linden)
*[2011/02/08 11:24] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: ok Dan is in Mic's group
*[2011/02/08 11:24] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: yes
*[2011/02/08 11:24] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I got to meet with them in Portland three weeks ago
*[2011/02/08 11:24] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: great work up there
*[2011/02/08 11:25] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: i was just wondering today about what's going on with that
*[2011/02/08 11:25] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: now that this large worlds issue and scalability in general is really coming to our table
*[2011/02/08 11:25] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: Mic seems to think that "sims" are we know them are no longer needed
*[2011/02/08 11:25] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Mic has visited us here in Oulu also a couple of times
*[2011/02/08 11:25] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: yah in new rex work we haven't implemented the SL model so far not at all, regions and such
*[2011/02/08 11:26] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: /me is still digging up the ref
*[2011/02/08 11:26] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: in order to replicate an operational environment, I need lots of space and objects/avatars/entities
*[2011/02/08 11:26] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: a typical scene for us is between 2.5-4.5 million polygons
*[2011/02/08 11:26] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: I still wonder if adopting one technology (opensim) will prevent innovation in other later approaches
*[2011/02/08 11:26] [[User: Python Morales: Daniel Horn, Ewen Cheslack-Postava, Behram F.T. Mistree, Tahir Azim, Jeff Terrace , Michael J. Freedman, Philip Levis "To Infinity and Not Beyond|Python Morales: Daniel Horn, Ewen Cheslack-Postava, Behram F.T. Mistree, Tahir Azim, Jeff Terrace , Michael J. Freedman, Philip Levis "To Infinity and Not Beyond]]: Scaling Communication in Virtual Worlds with Meru." http://hci.stanford.edu/cstr/reports/2010-01.pdf
*[2011/02/08 11:27] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: we are looking at many approaches
*[2011/02/08 11:27] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: open sim is but one
*[2011/02/08 11:27] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: yep, not everyone is using opensim
*[2011/02/08 11:27] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: teleplace is another I look at closely
*[2011/02/08 11:27] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: Big World is another
*[2011/02/08 11:27] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: thanks for the link
*[2011/02/08 11:27] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: Real World
*[2011/02/08 11:27] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: we have made our new demo without opensim
*[2011/02/08 11:27] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: but it's a small world
*[2011/02/08 11:27] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Python|Morgaine Dinova: Python]]: Naali doesn't have the SL+TPV viewer's restriction on region size, right?
*[2011/02/08 11:27] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: i did make a test of an infinite world yesterday :)
*[2011/02/08 11:28] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: so far, from what we can tell... virtual worlds until now were only good for smaller platoon level training
*[2011/02/08 11:28] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Oh Maccus. WOuld the Army bein interested in developign a capabilities matrix for virtual worlds for the whole community to use?
*[2011/02/08 11:28] [[User: NullSubset Burner|NullSubset Burner]]: as always informative- Thx Marcus- have a wonderful day Folks:)
*[2011/02/08 11:28] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: Its funny you ask
*[2011/02/08 11:28] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: I have oen that Steve gave me and would like to help
*[2011/02/08 11:28] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: :)
*[2011/02/08 11:28] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: everytime we try , the technology changes radically and we have to start over!
*[2011/02/08 11:28] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: we even have a website for that
*[2011/02/08 11:29] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Maybe having one place and may people helping to push it forward
*[2011/02/08 11:29] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Morgaine, correct, there is no region size limit in Naali .. nor in Opensim, except that physics etc. in Opensim limit it to something. when using Naali as a server (Tundra), there really is no limit as far as scale goes 'cause you can deal with how build the physics
*[2011/02/08 11:29] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Would love the URL?
*[2011/02/08 11:29] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: I will help drive people to it to add content
*[2011/02/08 11:29] [[User: サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)|サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)]]: Cobalt/Corquet/Teleplace uses a 32-bit float for sim coordinates
*[2011/02/08 11:29] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I had it taken down as it was difficult to keep current. Was quite embarrasing. Let me look at it and see
*[2011/02/08 11:29] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: I really think that will make it better long term
*[2011/02/08 11:29] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I might be persuated to put it back
*[2011/02/08 11:29] [[User: Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]: The Aurora kids seem to be pushing toward arbitrarily sized regions too
*[2011/02/08 11:30] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Saijanai, Naali as well
*[2011/02/08 11:30] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: arbitrary regions make a lot of sense
*[2011/02/08 11:30] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: Folks, I need to run to my next meeting.
*[2011/02/08 11:30] [[User: サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)|サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)]]: Jilian Lombardi was talking about localized physics regions thatbased on proximaty between avatars
*[2011/02/08 11:30] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: feel free to email or IM
*[2011/02/08 11:30] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: so this sirikata/Meru think i linked to works afaik so that everything can be in one space which is not paritioned to regions
*[2011/02/08 11:30] [[User: サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)|サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)]]: so you don't have to evaluate physics for objects outside your interaction range
*[2011/02/08 11:30] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: but the servers prioritize traffic based on proximity
*[2011/02/08 11:30] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: Thank you Saijanai for the invitation
*[2011/02/08 11:31] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: tc maccus
*[2011/02/08 11:31] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Python|Morgaine Dinova: Python]]: that's exactly what we need -- a viewer that can travel indefinitely in an infinite region, with the server-side acreage just being instantiated on demand. The coordinates must keep increasing monotonically in both directions, not resetting as in LL's instanced model.
*[2011/02/08 11:31] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: i'm wondering if Big World and such do the same
*[2011/02/08 11:31] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: and welcome to groupies:)
*[2011/02/08 11:31] [[User: Xon Emoto|Xon Emoto]]: Thanks Maccus, great talk!
*[2011/02/08 11:31] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: tc Maccus - great discussion :)
*[2011/02/08 11:31] [[User: サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)|サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)]]: thanks for this talk Maccus. Feel free to set up another, and please keep in touch via group IM and/or IRC
*[2011/02/08 11:31] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: I can talk about BW capabilties offline or in another discussion
*[2011/02/08 11:31] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Thanks Maccus, very interesting.
*[2011/02/08 11:31] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: cheers Maccus, i'll read the log to see what you talked about :)
*[2011/02/08 11:31] [[User: Maccus McCullough|Maccus McCullough]]: Take care all
*[2011/02/08 11:31] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Are you familar with UNIFY from Unity 3D, Doug?
*[2011/02/08 11:32] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: i think size of region depends on server
*[2011/02/08 11:32] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: UNIFY is workign to make the Indy developers strong as the major gaming companies
*[2011/02/08 11:32] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: By unifying their efforts
*[2011/02/08 11:32] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Sounds like something the metavers eneeds
*[2011/02/08 11:33] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Joye, interesting, sounds like open source and what we have been doing with reX too .. it is a collaboration of some (currently 4) small gaming and vw related companies
*[2011/02/08 11:33] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: and some random individuals
*[2011/02/08 11:33] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: tc, all... RL calls. Good to see you all... it's been a while... buried in client projects most of the time :)
*[2011/02/08 11:33] [[User: サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)|サイ　じゃない (saijanai.kuhn)]]: if anyone needs a Groupies invite, please let me know
*[2011/02/08 11:33] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: tc jb
*[2011/02/08 11:34] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: you too Rex
*[2011/02/08 11:34] [[User: JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: bye for now
*[2011/02/08 11:34] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: :)
*[2011/02/08 11:36] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: oh nice UNIFY has a* with navigation meshes, i'd need to get that working in two weeks on reX, perhaps can port :)
*[2011/02/08 11:37] [[User: Xon Emoto|Xon Emoto]]: Gotta run too. Thanks to JB and Saijani for getting this going. cu all, and have a good day.
*[2011/02/08 11:37] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Can I use OAR files with RealXtend?
*[2011/02/08 11:38] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Wanted to use the one from the Univ of Edinburgh
*[2011/02/08 11:38] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Joye, yes, for vanilla opensim content. like said we haven't removed anything from opensim, and can't even, we've just made a module to it :)
*[2011/02/08 11:39] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Also is there somewhere I can find URLs for accessing other RealXtend environments? Would like to see what they are like
*[2011/02/08 11:39] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: and that module currently implements support for (unity-style, if you wish :) custom entity-components, so that you can put arbitrary data to your scene objects .. and that data gets automatically synched to all clients, and you can use a GUI in Naali to edit that data and script client side behaviour on that data etc
*[2011/02/08 11:39] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: I tried to setup my RealXtend servers this week, but found the website hard to follow
*[2011/02/08 11:39] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Doesn't tell what to do many times
*[2011/02/08 11:40] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: yah we should cleanup the wiki etc
*[2011/02/08 11:40] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: there are not many public worlds currently running, it's more used by companies to do projects for customers
*[2011/02/08 11:40] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: I am working with the iED TWG and would really like to test RealXtend out personally
*[2011/02/08 11:40] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: best looking thing currently is the old beneath the waves demo
*[2011/02/08 11:41] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Ok if IM you later Python for some help with it? I take it you are on GMT time?
*[2011/02/08 11:41] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: world.realxtend.org:9000 is the default world and has auth off, it's just a sandbox, and has been even on for several months without break now but exactly today it's down :p
*[2011/02/08 11:42] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: thanks
*[2011/02/08 11:42] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: that should help
*[2011/02/08 11:42] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Joye, is fine -- also we are on #realxtend and #realxtend-dev on freenode when not on SL
*[2011/02/08 11:42] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Great thanks
*[2011/02/08 11:42] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: I work with a multimedia film studio and recording studio in New England
*[2011/02/08 11:42] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: cool
*[2011/02/08 11:43] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: this is a video of simple example scenes that come bundled in the December Tundra 1.0 preview release, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wg6SAQPW-9k
*[2011/02/08 11:44] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: you can run those locally very simply, just clicking on the scene file (similar to OAR) in your file manager
*[2011/02/08 11:44] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: it opens them in a local server which is a viewer too
*[2011/02/08 11:45] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: we have made a mode complex demo scene with that tech, with a couple of minigames, but can't share it yet 'cause there's a partner involved who's gonna announce it late this month
*[2011/02/08 11:46] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: tc everybody
*[2011/02/08 11:46] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: Love the Aquarium concept in RealXtend
*[2011/02/08 11:49] [[User: Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)|Virtualvian Man (joey.aboma)]]: zThaniks
*[2011/02/08 11:50] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Did Zha make an appearance earlier, or send a note?

User:Saijanai Kuhn/http-in with squeak

2010-08-06T13:31:16Z

Saijanai Kuhn: Created page with ''From Squeak4.1 of 17 April 2010 [latest update: #9957] on 6 August 2010 at 6:26:12 am'! WAComponent subclass: #SecondTestComponent instanceVariableNames: 'primURL postBody prim...'

'From Squeak4.1 of 17 April 2010 [latest update: #9957] on 6 August 2010 at 6:26:12 am'!
WAComponent subclass: #SecondTestComponent
instanceVariableNames: 'primURL postBody primResponse'
classVariableNames: ''
poolDictionaries: ''
category: 'Seaside-Basic-Tests'!

!SecondTestComponent methodsFor: 'rendering' stamp: 'LDE 8/6/2010 03:13'!
renderContentOn: html
self renderExplanationOn: html.
html form: [
html text: 'enter prim URL here: '.
html textInput
value: self primURL;
callback: [ :value | self primURL: value ].
html break.
html text: 'POST body:'.
html textInput
value: self postBody;
callback: [ :value | self postBody: value ].
html break.
html text: 'primResponse:'.
html textInput
value: self postBody.
html submitButton callback: [self postMessageToPrim] ]! !

!SecondTestComponent methodsFor: 'rendering' stamp: 'LDE 8/5/2010 23:08'!
renderExplanationOn: html
html paragraph: 'This form sends a HTTP POST to the primURL.'! !

!SecondTestComponent methodsFor: 'accessing' stamp: 'LDE 8/5/2010 23:17'!
postBody
"Answer the value of postBody"

^ postBody! !

!SecondTestComponent methodsFor: 'accessing' stamp: 'LDE 8/5/2010 23:17'!
postBody: anObject
"Set the value of postBody"

postBody := anObject! !

!SecondTestComponent methodsFor: 'accessing' stamp: 'LDE 8/5/2010 23:11'!
primURL
"Answer the value of primURL"

^ primURL! !

!SecondTestComponent methodsFor: 'accessing' stamp: 'LDE 8/5/2010 23:11'!
primURL: anObject
"Set the value of primURL"

primURL := anObject! !

!SecondTestComponent methodsFor: 'initialization' stamp: 'LDE 8/6/2010 03:01'!
initialize
super initialize.
primURL := 'enter prim URL here'.
postBody := 'your message goes here.'.
primResponse := 'no response yet'.! !

!SecondTestComponent methodsFor: 'as yet unclassified' stamp: 'LDE 8/6/2010 04:01'!
postMessageToPrim

| response |

response := (HTTPSocket httpPostDocument: primURL args: postBody asString accept: '*/*' request: '') content.

! !

AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2010-07-27

2010-07-27T16:58:15Z

Saijanai Kuhn: Created page with '*[09:30] Mojito Sorbet: wxWidgets is being obstinate. A program in the demo package works fine, but when I try to compile my own copy of the same code, it...'

*[09:30] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: wxWidgets is being obstinate. A program in the demo package works fine, but when I try to compile my own copy of the same code, it fails at runtime
*[09:34] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: hello everybody
*[09:34] [[User: Honour McMillan|Honour McMillan]]: Good morning :)
*[09:35] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: hi honour
*[09:35] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: we should call this meditation circle:)
*[09:35] [[User: Honour McMillan|Honour McMillan]]: :)
*[09:36] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: /
*[09:36] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Hello all
*[09:36] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: hi zha
*[09:36] [[User: Honour McMillan|Honour McMillan]]: Hello :)
*[09:37] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: u came to join the meditation circle, zha:)
*[09:37] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Morgaine has proposed a topic for today, which came out of the brief discussion on VWRAP last week
*[09:38] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: /me suspects from silence Morgaine is off argying with the tea kettle
*[09:39] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Back
*[09:40] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Sorry about that.
*[09:40] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: How''s the tea?
*[09:40] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Actually was drinking some perl
*[09:40] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hmmmmm .... what was it I was proposing?
*[09:40] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Don't drink that hot, it will scar your throat like Sake
*[09:40] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: The events stuffs
*[09:41] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Oh yeah, scalability assist for each cap.
*[09:41] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Like a 402?
*[09:41] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Oooh, I love hot sake. Not had any since Xmas
*[09:41] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: oops, I think I mean 300-simething
*[09:41] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Lovely way to get throat cancer, alas, but tasty
*[09:41] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: So, Morgaine in response to Meadhbh's latest
*[09:42] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: was pushign a little on the question of how realtime caps get in
*[09:42] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: 303 is the one I was thinking of
*[09:42] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Bah, spoil sport Zha, hot sake is worth mere cancer :P
*[09:42] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: My take for quite a while, has been (and it shows in the client side caps stuff)
*[09:42] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: that when you ask for a cap
*[09:43] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Well first, in general about mead's proposal, I think that's great. Sounds like she's able to move more freely outside of LL
*[09:43] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: There is a good chance the service may ask to deliver the results in another channel.
*[09:43] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: Well, maybe...
*[09:43] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Killing LLIDL, effectivlye, and focusing on the LLSD level description?
*[09:43] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: if a service tries to use a cap, and the cap doesn't exist, then it may result in another channel
*[09:43] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I dont hink this has anything to do with the low level coding
*[09:43] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: zha. r u listening to group chat?
*[09:44] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Not closely
*[09:44] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yes Zha, it won't help when the service is external and the cap has no special knowledge of the service. But as an option for when they're co-located, it's pretty uber.
*[09:44] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Well, so the overall pattern is
*[09:44] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I want to get service "string which is opaue"
*[09:44] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: This is a high level thing. It sounds to me not unlike the 300-series of HTTP status codes, where a server can redriect a requesting client to a different URI
*[09:44] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and the cap granter passes you back something
*[09:45] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: There is NO requirement it be in the same DNS or even the same transport binding as the cap request
*[09:45] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: so, I can ask for "Local.chat.services"
*[09:45] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I'm happy with opaque string, since the raw low level IP:port is a subset of a URI
*[09:45] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and get back a RTP or a XMPP thing to play with
*[09:45] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Well, this is the inbound side "I want to do X"
*[09:45] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: on the response
*[09:45] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: and get back the NAME of such a thing.
*[09:45] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: the service granter gets to say
*[09:46] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Here is how I do it
*[09:46] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and.. then.. (and this is why client side caps) and why events / realtiem gets interesting
*[09:46] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: There is a need to say
*[09:46] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I'd like to delver you stuff on pipe "arbitrary"
*[09:47] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yep, very much so
*[09:47] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hiya Dahlia :-)
*[09:47] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: where... that is, in my mind, a URI and there is some fun negotation bits to make sure that the server and client pick a workable set for them, ideally best available
*[09:47] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: hi :)
*[09:47] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: The two ends are losely coupled, by definition
*[09:47] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: hi dahlia
*[09:48] [[User: Mojito Sorbet: Loook at this|Mojito Sorbet: Loook at this]]: http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec10.html
*[09:48] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: And scroll down to section 300
*[09:48] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: so.. you may have to negotiate al ittle to make sure you have a pair in common
*[09:48] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Now this is written in webbie speak, but the concept I think is generlaly applicable
*[09:48] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: In particuolar see code 300, the "multiple" response
*[09:49] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Yes and no
*[09:49] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Because it's not a 300 type redirect to another URI exactly
*[09:49] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: Zha, the way the transport mehods are being compared to a device driver with various hardware addresses possible i thought was an insightful way to look at it
*[09:49] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Well, ONE of the 3xx codes seems to be like this
*[09:49] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: except maybe everybody nogt familiar with device drivers
*[09:49] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: What concerns me most is that it be possible to have the leanest, meanest form of transport when desired. I don't mind if it takes a while to negociate that transport via a zillion layers (gotta shore up Intel's CPU-selling business after all), but what I DON'T want is that the high overheads are present on the transport pipe once it's negaociated.
*[09:50] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and totally agree Morgaine
*[09:50] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: We can do an expensive setup step
*[09:50] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: That's fine
*[09:50] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: nice landing Latig ;)
*[09:50] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i was practicing ;)
*[09:50] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Once our two endpoint have decided to use hypersonic carrier pigeions
*[09:50] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: *Latif
*[09:50] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: lol
*[09:50] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: we just let them get on with it
*[09:51] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Its not quite a 300
*[09:51] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Should install a trampoline for heavy landings, bounce them right back out to next-door sim :P
*[09:51] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: since a 300, rougtly speaking is "This RESOURCE is now at URI X"
*[09:51] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: WHich, for this session, it is.
*[09:51] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: (Depending a little on what you mean by resource and URI)
*[09:51] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: For this client/resource pair it is
*[09:52] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: 300
*[09:52] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: yes
*[09:52] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and this is where its also
*[09:52] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: a little tricky
*[09:52] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: The server can have its own rules about what response to give.
*[09:52] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: So, the resource you asked for isn't moving
*[09:52] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: but cap grant isn't exactly http get
*[09:52] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Different clients might get directed to different places, or even the same client on a different day
*[09:52] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: which is why its al ittle odd
*[09:52] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: 300
*[09:52] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: says
*[09:52] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: when you do http get/post again to this resource
*[09:53] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: use this URI
*[09:53] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I said it is LIKE HTTP. It is a kind of redirection. I dont mean to imply anyting else
*[09:53] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: cap grant is sent over http
*[09:53] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: but
*[09:53] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: its more
*[09:53] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Hey, SIM, I want to do X,, give me an endpoint"
*[09:53] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Forget HTTP. It is not part of this discussion
*[09:53] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and.. there is no coupling between the SIM URI, and the response
*[09:53] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: k
*[09:53] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: so, yes, its effectivel a redirect
*[09:54] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: (I just want to not make anyone think its a redirect of the http get which is he cap reuest)
*[09:54] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: *the
*[09:54] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: By some means, over some protocol, client asks server "I want to do X". The server casn respond, "To do X, go to URI=yyy"
*[09:54] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Exactly
*[09:54] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I'm uncomfortable with HTTP response codes being bandied about. As Mead said very insightfully, we're guilty of webifying all this, when it should be transport-agnostic.
*[09:54] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and therei's added fun
*[09:54] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: IT WAS AN EXAMPLE!!!
*[09:54] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: thus my being very clear its nor, Morgaine
*[09:54] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: we're all ont he same page
*[09:54] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: a 300 in respose to the get
*[09:54] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: would be to refirect the cap granter resource
*[09:54] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: not the responde
*[09:55] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: so.. Right, not webish
*[09:55] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: The only bit of really annoying fun
*[09:55] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: thats' not covered by the get side
*[09:55] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: is why I did client side caps to begin with
*[09:55] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Some codes mean "It is over there, and don't ask me again", others mean "It ios over there right now, for you, but ask again next time"
*[09:55] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: http response codes are a standard that has weight even if the codes are used elsewhere beside the transport
*[09:55] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: The loosely coupled ends are messy
*[09:55] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: The client is asking for "I want thevoice chat endopint"
*[09:55] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I would not even use the same numbers. The semantics will be a little different
*[09:55] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: IT WAS AN EXAMPLE
*[09:56] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: lol
*[09:56] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Mojito|Morgaine Dinova: Mojito]]: we don't want to couple ourselves to HTTP codes.
*[09:56] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: And the server wans to give the client the best possible endpoint
*[09:56] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: kk
*[09:56] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: which means it needs to know what the client can speak)
*[09:56] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and along the way, we also need to know what bits of security need to be setup
*[09:56] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: This as morgaine observes
*[09:56] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: SIP has a way of doing that. Maybe we should look at that for exmaples too
*[09:56] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: can be wickedly expensive
*[09:56] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: because we do it infrequently
*[09:56] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: But, it also eneds to be wickedly flexible
*[09:56] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: CLient says, "I want to do X, and I support technologies, A,B,C"
*[09:57] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: because as soon as we get it coded in RTP"
*[09:57] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: soemoen will come along and want it in XTP
*[09:57] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: So, right, one way is what Mojito just suggested
*[09:57] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Well we're not going out of our way to make it expensive to set up. But we want flexibility, which usually means some extra overhead.
*[09:57] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: It is only extra overhead on the session startup
*[09:58] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: "I want voice chat cap, and I speak SIP, Vivox, and Proporarayr voice tech 78"
*[09:58] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Actually pre-session.
*[09:58] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and the cap granter goes
*[09:58] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Hmmm.
*[09:58] [[User: Zha Ewry: whispers|Zha Ewry: whispers]]: K, "How about you use "ur://vivox cap" and "here's a key"
*[09:58] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: SIP is just a wrapper. Vivox uses SIP as well. It is the codecs that vary, and that is what the AB,C is all about
*[09:58] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: right, but vivox, is more restrictive
*[09:59] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: or, pick another voice tool
*[09:59] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: says who? ;)
*[09:59] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: the point being, the client, as it asks hints
*[09:59] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: "I know how to talk these N ways"
*[09:59] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and the service goes
*[09:59] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Hmm. Ok, best for me, is "X"
*[09:59] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Client side caps went one step more indirect
*[09:59] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: You can do it all in once round trip
*[10:00] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Defered the pipe negotation, but its not clear you need to do that
*[10:00] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: this is probably sufficient
*[10:00] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: The model I have in my head is:
*[10:00] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: I have code for client-side caps.
*[10:00] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I want function X, and support A,B,C. Answer comes back, "from your list I choose "B". Please go to URI UUU'
*[10:00] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: in use
*[10:00] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: The fixed bits are URI (mostly URLs) which associate a bit of virtual space with a cap grant
*[10:01] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Everything else is subject to
*[10:01] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Client and Service proider pattern like this
*[10:01] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: so.. the services are 90% facades
*[10:01] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: You may implement them all in boring HTTP get/response an long pole on a single box
*[10:01] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: or you can have nothign but a cap granter
*[10:01] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and have every single cap grant point off elsewhere
*[10:02] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: All the external interface is in the facade
*[10:02] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: maybe i missed it, or it's a dumb question, but how's this negotiation happening in the first place? what sorta connection?
*[10:02] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Not always facades. If the URI returned is scheme://IP:port/, it's not much of a facade :P
*[10:03] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Its still a facade, just one to one and onto in that case ;-)
*[10:03] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: But fromt he client's perspective it knows the pattern is always
*[10:03] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Go to URI of resource wanted (sim in this case)
*[10:03] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: i theory it doesn't matter the connection
*[10:03] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: OK, fair enough. It's a facade in the minimalist sense that the nature of the URI is subject to interpretation at least :-)
*[10:03] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and then, the servcies will be granted on any pipe the client/server pair chose
*[10:04] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: so, it may be a single monolithic process with only one type of endpoint
*[10:04] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: or it may be 100 services sctattered in a cloud
*[10:04] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: The client only need know how to setup the pipes
*[10:04] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and the services are free to be deployed as strangely as the service provdiers chose
*[10:04] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: With one major qualifier
*[10:05] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I actually think the IP:port case is not a special case of the general service URI, and it's kind of misrepresenting it as if it were. The pattern is different. The control point is at the cap, not at the service.
*[10:05] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Which is its gonna be wickedly hard to seperate out services which WRAP doesn't define as seperate endpoints onto seperate service handlers.
*[10:06] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: The pattgern, tho, is always 'Get seedcap from well known place, follwinf web rules"
*[10:06] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: reuest caps using http get/post semantics
*[10:06] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and then..
*[10:06] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Its up to the result of the get to define how you proceed
*[10:06] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: you *could*
*[10:06] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: say
*[10:06] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: The seedcap can be anything you want
*[10:06] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Not sure about "well known place". A Virtual World simulator can always answer "I don't know anyting about that"
*[10:07] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Well ... OK, not gonna argue it, since it achieves the same effect. :-) But "Cap is in control" and "Cap defers control" don't feel like the same pattern to me :-)
*[10:07] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: The first step needs tobe wickedly concise and consistent
*[10:07] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: You really, really, really
*[10:08] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: don't want to do complex negotiation before the first http get
*[10:08] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: that's pretty much how client-side caps works... the connection negotiation can optionally setup uris for specific caps
*[10:08] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: But, beyond that
*[10:08] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: the cap granter is in full control
*[10:08] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: enabled/disable also
*[10:08] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I don't really get why we single out seed caps as special, since any cap can return a list of other caps.
*[10:08] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Because they are first opint of contant
*[10:08] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I shudder that the though of a hierarchial nae registry for the capabilities.
*[10:09] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: You really want first point of contact to be very minmial so that the really simplistic clients don't need to bear the cost of the complex ones
*[10:09] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Some services may say "no, no, no" to that client a lot
*[10:10] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: But it should be able to ask for all the starting bits in a very simple way.
*[10:10] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: the registry is a simple dictionary list lookup
*[10:10] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: the caps are named key, the uris are the the value
*[10:10] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Think of it as basically saying
*[10:10] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Mojito|Morgaine Dinova: Mojito]]: hierarchy yes (because one cap yields several, recursively, it's a DAG of caps), but it's hard to avoid name registry, since we only know what caps mean by name.
*[10:10] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: dag?
*[10:10] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Region gets pretty well known URL (URI for fomality, but it is oneo f a very limited set of bindings)
*[10:11] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: from which you can get a seedcap, and then
*[10:11] [[User: Tammy Nowotny|Tammy Nowotny]]: hello everyone
*[10:11] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Its negotiated caps all the way down
*[10:11] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hi
*[10:11] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: hi tammy
*[10:11] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I just do not want service names creeping in there unnecessarily. Like how all those fundamental JAVA classes have "sun.com" in their names
*[10:11] [[User: Honour McMillan|Honour McMillan]]: HI :)
*[10:11] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: heh
*[10:11] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: what is DAG?
*[10:11] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Rex|Morgaine Dinova: Rex]]: you can think of it as a tree, in which no child can point to a parent cap or else you get cycles
*[10:11] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: No, it would be really good to have the cap names avoid that as much as possible.
*[10:11] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Directed Acyclic Graph
*[10:12] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: speechless DAWG, then. ;o)
*[10:12] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: i suggest to default to cap discovery except in cases of optimization
*[10:12] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Strictly speaking, I'm ok if its "org.ietf.vrwap.generic_text_chat_cap"
*[10:12] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: tho, the "org.ietf.vrwap" adds very little.
*[10:13] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: i kow what that is, but i wasn't sure what u meant when u used that acronym:)
*[10:13] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Zha|Morgaine Dinova: Zha]]: what the prefix adds is a registry name. That's important, it's the source of capname uniqueness, because you can only have uniqueness within one organization.
*[10:14] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: yeah, which is why I'm suggesting it exactly that way
*[10:14] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and by going to
*[10:14] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: "org. ieft.vwrap"
*[10:14] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: as the prefix
*[10:14] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Because we sure as hell don't want IANA allocating our capnames :P
*[10:14] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: we let the DNS folks manage uniqueness
*[10:14] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: sorry about the microphone being on
*[10:14] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: /me laughs
*[10:15] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: "Dear hidebound organization, please allocate "temporary really cool cap for testing downloaded fabric physics paramaters"
*[10:15] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: lol
*[10:15] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Thank you no
*[10:15] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I'd rather do that as
*[10:15] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: beyond, it would be the best if you moved from the landing point ;)
*[10:15] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: PhysX claims to have fabric physics. lol
*[10:15] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: u souldn't spell out loud your email pass, sai;)
*[10:16] [[User: Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]: Better, Latif? I have no idea how much I moved.
*[10:16] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: "edu.fit.testwrap.fabric_phyiscis_parm_fetch"
*[10:16] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: did I say that out loud? :-/
*[10:16] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and know that since I am at FIT
*[10:16] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: its my cap
*[10:16] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: (We will for the nonce ignore versioning, please)
*[10:17] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Because of where these names get used, they will never be confused with node or class names...
*[10:17] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Caps versionsing? Eww ...
*[10:17] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Gonna happen, Morgaine
*[10:17] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: soooner or later
*[10:17] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: /me nods, and groans
*[10:17] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: But
*[10:17] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
*[10:17] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: i was just kiddind u, i have sound off. didn't hear a thing
*[10:17] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I'm ok with simple string match semantics
*[10:17] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I have no desire to insist on
*[10:17] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: zha, wouldn't it be better to make that edu.fit.testwrap.fetch.fabric_phyiscis_parm
*[10:17] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: "v1->v2" and some semantics about that
*[10:18] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: heh.
*[10:18] [[User: Dzonatas Sol: then you get |Dzonatas Sol: then you get ]]: http://host:port/verX/articleA/verY/articleB/item
*[10:18] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Its opaque, Sai
*[10:18] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: ah, right full cap
*[10:18] [[User: Tammy Nowotny: FIT & fabric makes me think of the university in NYC|Tammy Nowotny: FIT & fabric makes me think of the university in NYC]]: Fashion Institute of Technology.
*[10:18] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Assuming that the dot structure is for anythign but human convencince is fangeorus
*[10:18] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: All good protocols start off saying "This session will be at version NN.NN of the ZZZ protocol"
*[10:18] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: That was intentional tammy ;-)
*[10:18] [[User: Tammy Nowotny|Tammy Nowotny]]: :-)
*[10:19] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: The probelm with NN.MM of ZZZ protocol
*[10:19] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: is that you need a complete enumeration of eerything in it, for that to add much alue
*[10:19] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: it assumes a set of caps
*[10:19] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: That said, yeah
*[10:19] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Well, you could inluce a litst of tokens representing various features...
*[10:19] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: That's the current scheme
*[10:19] [[User: Tammy Nowotny|Tammy Nowotny]]: for all I know FIT may be studying virtual worlds.
*[10:20] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and it includes some of Zero's bias on the flavour of "anyone asking for caps will know what they want to ask"
*[10:20] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: The Internet-Protocol-that-must-not-be-named uses a simple numbering, but it is a very simple protocol
*[10:20] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: they are, Tammy.
*[10:20] [[User: Tammy Nowotny|Tammy Nowotny]]: excellent!
*[10:20] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: hetch tee tee pee!
*[10:20] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: No! You have invoked the devil!
*[10:20] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Aleric made an impassioned please some 5-6 months ago to avoid the monolithic protocol versioning approach, because net-wide system can't easily evolve to support that.
*[10:20] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: plea*
*[10:21] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and I quite agree
*[10:21] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: http has been 1.1 for a decade
*[10:21] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yeah
*[10:21] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I want to be able to add a single cap
*[10:21] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: /me nods
*[10:21] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: or a a new style of end point
*[10:21] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: without having to get it into version 123.78 of the protocol suite
*[10:21] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: We need an update on Godwin's law. Anyone citing HTTP as a precedent ends the conversation
*[10:21] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hahaha
*[10:21] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Versioning beyond describing the cap grant and response rules, ought to be per cap
*[10:22] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: is http nazi?
*[10:22] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Mojito's Corrolary
*[10:22] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: So, the very high level stuff can be versioned
*[10:22] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol, so protocol version + each cap version
*[10:22] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: as in basic patttern for initial setup
*[10:22] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: almost as flexible as CORBA
*[10:22] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: but, yes, exactly Latif
*[10:22] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: There should be a cocktail called Mojito's Corollary
*[10:22] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: heh
*[10:22] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: By reference, I call up the XKCD episode about WW2 generals trying to plan an attack, and being stopped by Godwin's law
*[10:23] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: OMG they mentioned OMG tech.
*[10:23] [[User: NullSubset Burner|NullSubset Burner]]: good day all)
*[10:23] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: /me hides under a rock making incohate noises which sound like"IOPL" and "DSOM" and rocks
*[10:23] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: "make it stop!"
*[10:23] [[User: RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]: lol!
*[10:24] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I attended Object Mnagement Group meetings in a previous life
*[10:24] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: One goal for VWRAP is to avoid most of those traps and experiences
*[10:24] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: did you by any chance work on SOAP? ;)
*[10:24] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Wash your mouth out Latif
*[10:24] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: :P
*[10:25] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: SOAP looks fine, until you try and use it
*[10:25] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: exactly
*[10:25] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: overengineered POS nobody wants to use unless they have to
*[10:25] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: at which point, you find out that ersioning objects across the web is a really bad thing
*[10:25] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Is SOAP that Service Oriented something Protocol?
*[10:25] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I wonder why CORBA failed. It's not hugely different to many other RPC systems.
*[10:25] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Both CORBA (OMG) stuff and SOAP had way too much of a habit of binding object semantics onto RPC
*[10:25] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Mojito, SOAP is xml web services RPC system
*[10:26] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Yes, ok, I know about that.
*[10:26] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Too much end-to-end semantics Morgaine
*[10:26] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: corba can be a pain 2 use:(
*[10:26] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Wickedly hard to version
*[10:26] [[User: Gazanfer Jehangir|Gazanfer Jehangir]]: CORBA was meant for lehacy systems support which die on their own
*[10:26] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: you see, people make a comittee like wrap, people sit on them and invent all possible and impossilbe uses and edge cases
*[10:26] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Zha|Morgaine Dinova: Zha]]: you mean like we are in danger of doing, if we're not careful? :-)
*[10:27] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Heh
*[10:27] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: SOAP is popular in B2B things, so the books claim
*[10:27] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: and the nobody uses that crap and they go for KISS solutions likeREST
*[10:27] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Thats why the end goal for 90% of WRAP is RESTful
*[10:27] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Not joking. It's why I'm focused on the low level efficiency end of the use cases atm
*[10:27] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: also not kiding
*[10:27] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: which is why I'm pushign back hard on any attempt to do hueg protocol suites in favor of
*[10:27] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: you're wrapping corba/soap carma in a restful protocol
*[10:27] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: karma*
*[10:27] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: "Here is a cap for doing X"
*[10:28] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: And, keeping the basic patterns really limited
*[10:28] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: basic patterns?
*[10:28] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: VWRAP should be mostly doing two very seperaable tasks in my mind
*[10:28] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: One is the basic framework
*[10:28] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: (how we setup stuffs)
*[10:28] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: like having to check the protocol version and then get the list of caps and then ask each cap about its own version and handle all the combinations? you call that basic?
*[10:29] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Except you don't Latiff
*[10:29] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: You do an http post with alist of cap strings
*[10:29] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and alist of client side endpoints you're willing ot use
*[10:29] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and you get back a set of caps
*[10:29] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: If some of those repeat the pattern
*[10:29] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: (which I expect will be rare)
*[10:30] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: the code is identical
*[10:30] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Thus
*[10:30] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I am having trouble seeing the application for all this...
*[10:30] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: "No versioning of the overall protocol, beyond making sure you are using the correct setup scheme
*[10:30] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Mojito, I do to
*[10:30] [[User: Gazanfer Jehangir|Gazanfer Jehangir]]: i have one in mind
*[10:31] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: well you can always imagine some edge case were it's absolutelly neccessary...
*[10:31] [[User: Dahlia Trimble: dumb http question|Dahlia Trimble: dumb http question]]: why POST instead of GET? a GET URL can be quite long
*[10:31] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: POST implies you are changing state on the server
*[10:31] [[User: Gazanfer Jehangir|Gazanfer Jehangir]]: its quite usbale but again interoperable over how much and how many systems?
*[10:31] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: but your not changing state
*[10:31] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: GET is not supposed to change any server state (tho sometimes people cheat)
*[10:31] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: This is setting up an association, which I think is a state change (1)
*[10:32] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Dahlia, you don't want to send UploadBakedTexture with GET xD
*[10:32] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Well with the degenerate form of URI as IP:port in the cap return block, which will be very appropriate for small standalone systems, there really is no setup overhead for the streaming transport. It doesn't get leaner.
*[10:32] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: I mean for Capability requests
*[10:32] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and 2) I prefer to push things like pais of lists of strings as a body with apost, not a get
*[10:32] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Dahlia, UploadBakedTexture is a cap
*[10:32] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: *pairs
*[10:33] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Yes, a POST with a bunch of JSON in the body
*[10:33] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Arghh. No HTTP words! You mean one of the 3 CRUD operations.
*[10:33] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I think its going to be a post of a fairly big wodge of strings
*[10:33] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: 4
*[10:33] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Well
*[10:34] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: On the very first cap grant, calls, I think it really is http
*[10:34] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: How you build C++ is basically SOAP
*[10:34] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: byeond that, tho, I'm totally fine calling it CRUD
*[10:34] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: C++ objects*
*[10:35] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: how can u compare c
*[10:35] [[User: Tammy Nowotny|Tammy Nowotny]]: I havent heard this song in eons
*[10:35] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: ++ and soap?
*[10:35] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn: seaside webservers tack on a session ID and page id to the end of the URL. That might make GET commands shorter than you might like|Saijanai Kuhn: seaside webservers tack on a session ID and page id to the end of the URL. That might make GET commands shorter than you might like]]: http://obi.ath.cx:8080/examples/playground?_s=sq1ns2MvQnASyIDl&_k=W81HhWG3pmThki8t
*[10:36] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
*[10:36] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: In terms of post, its also wickedly easier to build up a body than a URL/URI
*[10:36] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: SOAP is simple object access protocol... and the way you expect to "message" c++ is the basics of SOAP
*[10:36] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Sai|Morgaine Dinova: Sai]]: but Seaside doesn't pretend to be transport-agnostic. We are, so no webbifying pls :P
*[10:37] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and if you ever want to "post" onto other endpoints
*[10:37] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: keeping the content in the body, is much cleaner
*[10:37] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: well, get in the URL is certainly more webified than constructing a POST body
*[10:37] [[User: Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: I'me not familar with SOAP, but you use it durrning a shower....*ducks*....but anyway, I've read where some large projects got away from SOAP.
*[10:37] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: masively so
*[10:37] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: UML is still tied heavily to SOAP
*[10:38] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I don't think anyone who's built stuff on SOAP isgoing to push it here ;)
*[10:38] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: nope
*[10:38] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: especially using extensions like ws.security
*[10:38] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: /me makes a hand sign to ward off evil :P
*[10:39] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: soap is a protocol, not a programming language
*[10:39] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: /me groans at ws.*
*[10:39] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i have the scars to show for it ;)
*[10:39] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Morgaine, have you looked at encoding your comments to meah, in a set of proposed changes to the current draft?
*[10:40] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: how you access an object is protocol
*[10:40] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: they call it SOAP instead of SOA two distinguish it from Sevice Oriented Architecture
*[10:41] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: too*
*[10:41] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: SOAP is a very specific xml-over-http rpc protocol, nothing to do with SOA except a fancy name
*[10:42] [[User: Tammy Nowotny|Tammy Nowotny]]: I am being called away on business
*[10:42] [[User: Tammy Nowotny|Tammy Nowotny]]: TY everyone
*[10:42] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: SOAP doesn't even demand xml or http... that is just a common form you find
*[10:42] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Zha|Morgaine Dinova: Zha]]: she's currently working on that herself, although to be truthful, I' a bit uncertain what she has in mind. I liked her basic idea to tidy up LLIDL (I'm hoping we can clean up the syntax as a side effect of losing HTTP references), and I liked the opportunity to add some solutions for how we kick off special transports like for update streams.
*[10:42] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: tc tammy
*[10:42] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: k
*[10:43] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: llidl is another reason vwrap smells more and more like soap (and it's wsdl)
*[10:43] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: SOAP allows ambiguous object access methods... and REST narrows it down to 4 methods
*[10:43] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I'd like to make sure we get a very clean versino of this discussion summed up and back int he specs
*[10:43] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: for example
*[10:44] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: try to make a REST model in UML and you'll understand SOAP
*[10:44] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and never code in it ;)
*[10:44] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Well LLIDL is the reason why AWG never actually created that list of REST nouns that I asked Zha for countless times since the founding of the group. :-) I think LLIDL is shunned :P
*[10:45] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: LLIDL tends to come awfully close to a fetish of Zeros. Nobody codes or thinks in it.
*[10:45] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Aye. but its main problem is the stupid markup. people don't like it for the same (silly) reason they don't like LISP|Morgaine Dinova: Aye. but its main problem is the stupid markup. people don't like it for the same (silly) reason they don't like LISP]]: too many funny characters :P
*[10:46] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: i just find I have to reference the symbols to understand the same print each time i look at llidl
*[10:46] [[User: NullSubset Burner|NullSubset Burner]]: Soooooooo
*[10:46] [[User: NullSubset Burner|NullSubset Burner]]: might be mistaken but didnt SOA start as a C-extensiable libray- realtes closley in terms of untility/useage?
*[10:47] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: If I understood Mead correctly (and I rather fear that I didn't), she wants to turn LLIDL into a pure C-like structure tree, with resources separate from abstract data types.
*[10:47] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: And with no HTTP'ish markup.
*[10:49] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: almost 11....
*[10:49] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which would be very clean.
*[10:49] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: take care =)
*[10:49] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: And using the 4 CRUD operator words explicitly to identify resource semantics.
*[10:49] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: r u still here zha?
*[10:50] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: there is one "little" thing that needs to be addressed
*[10:50] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I am
*[10:50] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I was off woolgathering on REST nouns for s moment
*[10:50] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: our groups charter needs to be updated
*[10:51] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: if u read it u will see what i am talkingabout
*[10:51] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: What would you like changed Rex? I haven't actually looked in ages
*[10:51] [[User: Sridhar Shepherd|Sridhar Shepherd]]: where is current charter
*[10:51] [[User: Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]: "sponsored by LL"?
*[10:52] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Yeah, pretty backlevel
*[10:52] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Fair enough, Rex is right, it's out of date in various areas.
*[10:52] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: click on group info in group chat
*[10:52] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Basically, remove the LL angle, and add the VWRAP one.
*[10:52] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: don't need to change it now, but keep it in mind
*[10:52] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: And probably add a warning that you will be exposed to odd techie chat at 1:00 am SL time
*[10:53] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I will pull together an update and post it to the group for comments
*[10:53] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: You already added that Zha, or another officer did
*[10:53] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: 24/7
*[10:54] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: oh. it might be a good idea to post a LM to this place, and when and how long do these group meetings take place
*[10:54] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: It wanrs you words may travel far, but not so much that at 2:00 am you may get a four page debate on the efficicact of fusion power generations schemes
*[10:54] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: I always LOL when people join a chat group and then complain that people are using it to chat
*[10:54] [[User: NullSubset Burner|NullSubset Burner]]: lol
*[10:54] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Yeh, those would be goodt hings
*[10:54] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I'll make sure they get in
*[10:54] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hehe
*[10:54] [[User: NullSubset Burner|NullSubset Burner]]: anti - garivty next:P
*[10:54] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: So, I'll do that
*[10:55] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and I'll chew al ittle on whether we're at a point where nouns is a good discusson for next week
*[10:55] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I think it might be fun to build the list here, Morgaine
*[10:55] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: (Its much eaiser to do such things without worrrying abotu stepping on Lidnen's toes. )
*[10:55] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: You really ought to appoint another officer Zha. Tree is never around, and Sai is asleep most of the time. We had someone a few days ago asking for an officer, there were none around.
*[10:55] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i want DOWHATIWANT verb :P
*[10:56] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: You don't get verbs, only nouns ;-)
*[10:56] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: is REST we know our verbs ;-)
*[10:56] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Only 4 verbs, the CRUD ones
*[10:56] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: well, is mostly rest
*[10:56] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Anyone else want to be an officer in the zoo?
*[10:56] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Anyone who WANTS shouldn't get :-)
*[10:57] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: i nominate morgaine:)
*[10:57] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Heh\
*[10:57] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: don't I have that? :P
*[10:57] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: You're close Latif, you can moderate
*[10:57] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: to kill off rogue bots :P
*[10:57] [[User: Tammy Nowotny|Tammy Nowotny]]: sorry if I stepped on anyone
*[10:57] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Morgaine, you're on nearly 24/7? Want invite/mute powers?
*[10:57] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: ah, luckily didn't have a use for chat moderation yet
*[10:58] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: That's best ;)
*[10:58] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yeah :D
*[10:58] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I try, wickedly hard to be light handed on all of it
*[10:58] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: /me shrugs. I don't mind helping. But unlike Sai, I'm not going to invite anything that moves, and corpses as well.
*[10:58] [[User: Tammy Nowotny|Tammy Nowotny]]: Morgaine is on even more than Zha & Sai
*[10:58] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
*[10:58] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: lol morgaine
*[10:58] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: That's fine Morgaine
*[10:58] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I am once every so often
*[10:58] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: tempted to kick out 90% of the group
*[10:58] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: who invited Wrapp deserves a medal lol
*[10:58] [[User: Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]: /me still wonders how he ended up in this group. That might explain it...
*[10:59] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and ask the lurkers to justify why they are here
*[10:59] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: but..its way too much like work
*[10:59] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: is wrapp still muted?
*[10:59] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: no
*[10:59] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: /me tries to recall if she muted wrapp personally or group wide
*[10:59] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: he was only muted per session
*[10:59] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: heh
*[11:00] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Poor Wrapp. But sure it's a medic al condition, but certainly annoying for us.
*[11:00] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: anyway, i'm jumping over to andrews, take care yu all
*[11:00] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I'm off to OSgrid
*[11:00] [[User: NullSubset Burner|NullSubset Burner]]: my timing is apparently impcable as usual:- 90% kick:(-lol
*[11:00] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: does wrapp expect a medal for leaving his/hers bot going bla, bla, bla?
*[11:00] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: I'm outta here too, bye all :)
*[11:00] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: going to andrew's oh too
*[11:00] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Cya Dahlia, Rex, et all
*[11:00] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: tc everybody
*[11:01] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: will have transcript kup later today
*[11:01] [[User: Beyond Baroque|Beyond Baroque]]: /mw waves and poofs
*[11:01] [[User: Tammy Nowotny|Tammy Nowotny]]: tc, back to RL-grid myself
*[11:01] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: OMG, hi Sai ... right after I took your name in vain :P
*[11:01] [[User: Tammy Nowotny: I had a funny experience|Tammy Nowotny: I had a funny experience]]: my Rl self ran into Tuna Ofddfellow's at a talk at the Harvard law School
*[11:02] [[User: Tammy Nowotny|Tammy Nowotny]]: I eended it by saying I was going back to Real life...when of course this already was RL
*[11:02] [[User: RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]: lol!
*[11:02] [[User: Tammy Nowotny|Tammy Nowotny]]: but he said "Harvard is not real life" which is true
*[11:02] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: For epislons around real
*[11:03] [[User: NullSubset Burner|NullSubset Burner]]: Nice to meet you folks take care-(hope to attend again!!)
*[11:03] [[User: Tammy Nowotny|Tammy Nowotny]]: anyway, see you all soon
*[11:03] [[User: RevMagdalen Kyrie|RevMagdalen Kyrie]]: see you guys!
*[11:03] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Eeep
*[11:03] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Off to next RL thing
*[11:03] [[User: Tammy Nowotny|Tammy Nowotny]]: :D
*[11:03] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I'll ponder chater
*[11:03] [[User: Tammy Nowotny|Tammy Nowotny]]: *poof*
*[11:03] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and expect nouns on tap for next week
*[11:05] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Off to Andrew's on this client, but AFK as in OSgrid
*[11:07] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: hmm
*[11:07] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: did i miss the end??
*[11:07] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: ;o)

[[Category:Grid_Interoperability_Chat_Logs]]
[[Category:AW_Groupies_Transcripts]]
[[Category:MMOX]]

AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2010-07-06

2010-07-20T14:13:44Z

Saijanai Kuhn: Created page with '*[09:29] Rex Cronon: hello everybody *[09:29] Latif Khalifa: hi *[09:30] Rex Cronon: hi latif *[09:30] [[User: R...'

*[09:29] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: hello everybody
*[09:29] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hi
*[09:30] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: hi latif
*[09:30] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: AFK...............................
*[09:30] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: i will be afk for a few minutes
*[09:31] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: kk
*[09:34] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Look, it's Mary Poppins!
*[09:34] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: Hehe
*[09:34] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: been greeting at the Chilbo Faire
*[09:34] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: Tons o n00bs
*[09:34] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: laugh
*[09:34] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hehe
*[09:34] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: Destination Guide is a blessing and a curse all in one!
*[09:35] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: How to Sit 101!
*[09:35] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
*[09:35] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: "SL is a world where sitting is hard and flying is easy" xD
*[09:35] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: /me Looks up and say 3 more minutes and I'll assume all tat's showing is showing
*[09:36] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: That's a topic all to itself|Morgaine Dinova: That's a topic all to itself]]: "Why is sitting in SL so hard?" And how it should be redesigned, from scratch.
*[09:36] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: Indeed
*[09:36] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: heh
*[09:36] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: is it back to work day in the USA today?
*[09:37] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: yes
*[09:37] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: Unfortunately
*[09:37] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: :(
*[09:37] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Some people take off 4 days vacation, so as to have 9 consecutive days
*[09:37] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: Sitting is even harder now actually, that they removed the pie menu
*[09:37] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: ah
*[09:37] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Only for those people using V2 heh
*[09:37] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: Well all n00bs are
*[09:37] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: ;)
*[09:37] [[User: Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: who removed the pie menu?
*[09:37] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: people do that here over the easter holidays
*[09:38] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: since in denmark thur, fri, and mon around the easter are days off
*[09:38] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: Instead of big pie wedge you have to get it just right sammiched in between other menu choice3s.
*[09:38] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: While we're waiting on stragglers.. I have a topic or two
*[09:39] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: (an interesting bit of news from Oz to registered TPV - he will be sharing usage and crash statistics with their respective devs)
*[09:39] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Making tea is a good topic
*[09:39] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: As many have probably noticed, Meadhbh actually updated drafts. I've only had a chance to glance)
*[09:39] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: But.. Dahlia
*[09:39] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: /me sighs at her absence
*[09:40] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: WHat about Dahlia?
*[09:40] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Noticed several what can only be described as continuing SL centric assumptions.
*[09:40] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: There was a nice little chat about one of them at ungodly hours
*[09:40] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Only sighing a little
*[09:40] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I was so furious at the new drafts, Zha, that I refrained from replying in order not to blow my top.
*[09:41] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: The total lack of picking up most comments?
*[09:41] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: /me hasn't read them.
*[09:41] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Fricking "single world" assumptions battle again. Even now, after they're no longer employed by LL
*[09:41] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: The single world, the "One ave at a time"
*[09:41] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: I will note that it's much easier to edit a draft than to write the draft to begin with.
*[09:41] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Zha: yes indeed. Zero has a 100% closed brain. If it didn't come from him, it didn't happen.
*[09:42] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: The chat is fixed and follows Linden's current deployment notions
*[09:42] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: tons of that
*[09:42] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: (5/10/100)
*[09:42] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn: well it goes back to the question|Saijanai Kuhn: well it goes back to the question]]: can one avatar be in two worlds (subworlds) at the same time if they have a mutual prsence thing going?
*[09:42] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: There are some nasty bits if you allow a single person to project an ave into two grids at the same time
*[09:42] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: but.. They are not unsolvable
*[09:43] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: If I can TP from world A to world B, can I still keep the same ID in world A?
*[09:43] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Why nopt?
*[09:43] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: ID is easy
*[09:43] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: If was not the same ID, then it wasnt a TP, it was a relog
*[09:43] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: its several aves at the same time, tha really gets hard
*[09:43] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: I should say same name
*[09:43] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: And.. it may be tricky if one world has different name rules than aother, butt yes
*[09:43] [[User: Honour McMillan|Honour McMillan]]: stupid question - why would I want multiple av's at the same time?
*[09:44] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: To vote for each other in civic elections
*[09:44] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: I'm socializing in SL and finghting bad things in WoW
*[09:44] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: At a meeting, but want to manage my store for a moment
*[09:44] [[User: Honour McMillan|Honour McMillan]]: ok :)
*[09:44] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: In an internal grid, but want to be visible int he external one.
*[09:44] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Just because two agents have the same visual name while in two different worlds, doesn't mean that they're the same agent. It's verging on TRIVIAL for the software to keep them distinct when designed. So what's the issue? Treating them as one becomes a trivial issue of merging, when desired (eg. chat).
*[09:45] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Where having multiple simulatanous presecnees gets wonky is actions like inventory, appearance and such, and what ends up saved,
*[09:45] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: I generally don't want my SL inventory to mix with my WoW inventory
*[09:45] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: are you talking about multiple simultaneous presences in one world?
*[09:45] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Both
*[09:46] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: goes back to definition of "one world"
*[09:46] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: You can be logged in to a pile of different websites without conflict using OpenID. There is no reason why there should be conflict in VWs either.
*[09:46] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Because, honestly, the disctinction is trivial
*[09:46] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: Yes but I want my inventory to travel with me to all the SL like grids.
*[09:46] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: With interlinked worlds, you have to work out, can you be logged in in two places at once?
*[09:46] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: or opensim like grids or whatever the PC term is
*[09:46] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: In both case,s tho,, when I chaneg my shape, does it change?
*[09:46] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: We're talking about multiple VWs interoperating.
*[09:46] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: if you can TP from A to B and B to C, are A and C part of the same world?
*[09:46] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: I dunno that's confusing to me
*[09:46] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: Me is Me
*[09:46] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: If I deleet or add an item to invenoty in instance 1, does instance 2 see it, and if so when?
*[09:46] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: should be ME everywhere
*[09:47] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: totally agree fleep
*[09:47] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: So if multiple grids share some sort of login or authentication service, (1) can they even DETECT you are already logged in, and if so (2) what to do about it?
*[09:47] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Ot...
*[09:47] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: NOT me, if I don't want it to be
*[09:47] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: right
*[09:47] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Your choice, whether to keep a single thread of virtual consciousness, or several.
*[09:47] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: I fail to see the cost/benefit advantage of having multiple simultaneos presence in one world. The implementation is not at all trivial for very little gain imho
*[09:47] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: This is why there are alts
*[09:47] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: Why, like tabbed browsing
*[09:47] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Alts are very different than Mes.
*[09:48] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: I would rreally prefer to have an avatar at the Faire landing spot right now
*[09:48] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: to flip over from time to time and make sure no n00bs are caging each other.
*[09:48] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: so if you have multiple avatars with the same (or different) names in different worlds, are they all soul mates?
*[09:48] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: ut I can't cause I'm here
*[09:48] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: back
*[09:48] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and having a FLeep Suque in the seperate spot is not the same
*[09:48] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: Why is it any different than tabbed browsers?
*[09:48] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: nod right
*[09:48] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: You cna always run two viewers.
*[09:49] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Well, its messy because the whole "avatar" is not the same as glancing at a page
*[09:49] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: what if u can have only one avatar, but have multiple "ghost"?
*[09:49] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: But it sort of is.
*[09:49] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: There's tons of situations where being present at N places simultaneously would be desireable. I really can't imagine why anyone would want to FORCE single agent location. Fine to choose it for themselves, but not impose the choice on others.
*[09:49] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I have been in two sessions at once, in different worlds. Not for long, so as not to fry my gfx card
*[09:49] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: and u can control one ghost at a time
*[09:49] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: I mean if I had tabs at the top right now where my landmark favorites are with all the places where my av is sitting..
*[09:49] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: I could just flip between the,
*[09:49] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: them
*[09:49] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: The major thing, is that people want it.
*[09:50] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: And the protocol probably ought to handle it
*[09:50] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Control is just a client issue. The current client doesn't make it easy to control multiple.
*[09:50] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: (You don't have to use it, but preventing it.. Is bad)
*[09:50] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Its more thanthat Morgaine
*[09:50] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: And yeah if I' in this tab and put on a hat, I want the hat to show up everywhere.
*[09:50] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: If I log on in five laces
*[09:50] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: change my shape five times?
*[09:50] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Do they sync?
*[09:50] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Which one is the one I get on next login?
*[09:50] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: all sorts of odd bits
*[09:50] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: But.. All decribable
*[09:50] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: I can see one of the librarians wanting to socialize and yet still keep a a prsence at the library reception desk...
*[09:50] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: (describabale
*[09:50] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: nod Saij
*[09:51] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: on login u r one, but u can spanw multiple ghosts:)
*[09:51] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: We'd see lots less "ITS ALL EMPTY" if we could do that. ;)
*[09:51] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Zha|Morgaine Dinova: Zha]]: up to you. It'#s no more difficult for the client to do it for one than for several, if wanted. The poor CPU loves work.
*[09:51] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: ghost=sub-avatar of your main avatar
*[09:51] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: heh, it's way more difficult
*[09:51] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I can think of several models
*[09:51] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: your avatar gets to have his one avatars:)
*[09:52] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: hmm so your av looks sort of ethereal when you're not in that active tab? ;)
*[09:52] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: his own avatae*
*[09:52] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Thep oint being, the current spec totally blocsk even discussing it
*[09:52] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: yes fleep:)
*[09:52] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: :)
*[09:52] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: And makes a bunch of other assumptions about the rgeater world
*[09:52] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: u can call them voids, terminals, ghosts...
*[09:52] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: Let people decide how to handle the experience of multiple consciousness, but build it so they can. That's my vote. ;)
*[09:52] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: :)
*[09:53] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Here's a related question, but a much harder one, and yet, possibly even more interesting|Morgaine Dinova: Here's a related question, but a much harder one, and yet, possibly even more interesting]]: how about agents that continue being present in-world when you disconnect. That's a perfectly valid use case, and it scales better than the with-client use case.
*[09:53] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Self-running bots?
*[09:53] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yep
*[09:53] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Again, I don't think the protocol should block it
*[09:53] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: morgaine. those r AIs:)
*[09:53] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: hmm. Can you explaina use case Morgaine?
*[09:53] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: What could POSSIBLY go wrong?! hahaha
*[09:53] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
*[09:53] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: could have an option to tranfer control from a viewer to the server and back in at least some cases
*[09:53] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: Why would I do that instead of just going afk that doesn't idle out
*[09:53] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Well, the black/white morgaine bumps into the white/black facepainted morgaine, and the whole wold explodes
*[09:54] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Mojito|Morgaine Dinova: Mojito]]: lots could go wrong. But we're only making a protocol, not solving the implementations. The protocol should not BAR it.
*[09:54] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Oh, wait, that's just strar trek
*[09:54] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: hehe
*[09:54] [[User: Honour McMillan|Honour McMillan]]: /me thinks the amount of drama in vw's just exploded
*[09:54] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: good universe or bad universe Zha?
*[09:54] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Morgaine, if you don't consider the implementation when desiginging a protocol, you are just making sure that there will be no implementatiton
*[09:54] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: There's Dahlia :)
*[09:54] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: /me is trying to find the "rez an army of ninjas" HUD
*[09:55] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I don't suggest that we try and do it withou discussingi t at all
*[09:55] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: hi :)
*[09:55] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Latif, or acknowledge that there are things you haven't thought of and leave extensibility in the protocol
*[09:55] [[User: Honour McMillan|Honour McMillan]]: uh oh
*[09:55] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: So.. I am proposing the folllowing
*[09:55] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Latif|Morgaine Dinova: Latif]]: anyone can see a range of possible workable scenarios. What's unknown (through lack of experience) is what would result --- very much an emergent phenomenon.
*[09:55] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: AH, my army has arrived
*[09:56] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I'd like a list of spots like this
*[09:56] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: haha'
*[09:56] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Things in the current dragts which
*[09:56] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: are singletons an might not be
*[09:56] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: assupmtions rooted in SL
*[09:56] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: assumptions rooted in current code
*[09:56] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I'd like them enumerated, and then we cana ctually discuss how to look at them
*[09:57] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: OMG Ninjas!
*[09:57] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: /me hears some strange chant about badgers in his head...
*[09:57] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: Btw are these drafts on a wiki or googledoc or something somewhere?
*[09:57] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: How do you contribute edits?
*[09:57] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I am trying to find the OFF switch!
*[09:57] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: laugh Mojito
*[09:57] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: fleep, subscribe to https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vwrap
*[09:57] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: http://www.badgerbadgerbadger.com/
*[09:57] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: They're really evil, the "assumptions rooted in SL", because we've been here so many years that we treat those assumptions as "normal", instead of as merely the first step in VW evolution.
*[09:57] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: There is a SVN
*[09:58] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: ninjasninjasninjasninjas...
*[09:58] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I think we need to push Mea to put the documents up to there
*[09:58] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: Yeah I'm subscribed to the listserv, last time I looked they were word docs though
*[09:58] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: not so good for collaborative writing
*[09:58] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and The normal pattern is to proopose the issues on the listserve
*[09:58] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: drafts are formal documents, you don't just edit them :)
*[09:58] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and then they get edited up by somsone
*[09:58] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: oh oh ok
*[09:58] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: :)
*[09:58] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: An you have two choices
*[09:58] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: Sorry I thought they were working drafts.
*[09:58] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: You can ask for the editor's token
*[09:59] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: or you can popose textual changes
*[09:59] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: k
*[09:59] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: So, I'm thinking one thing which woudl be very good
*[09:59] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: would be to enumerate the places where we think there are problematic assumptions
*[09:59] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and drag that over to the IETF process after some discussion here
*[09:59] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: For example
*[10:00] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: the "Logged on in two places" discussion
*[10:00] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Tehre are about 10 typical resonses people have to it
*[10:00] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: So far we've not actually had working drafts. We've only had documents created out of thin air by individual writers, without discussion, and SO FAR, the great majority have not had even a single revision after discussions.
*[10:00] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: And I'd like to have them discussed first
*[10:01] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i have not seen proposal for changes Morgain, in the format required "paragrapj xxxx text yyy should be replaced by zzzz"
*[10:01] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Well, I'd liketo see
*[10:01] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: "This needs to be addressed" as well.
*[10:02] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: There, I think I killed it
*[10:02] [[User: Honour McMillan|Honour McMillan]]: :)
*[10:02] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: I guess that was what I was asking, what's the process if I have a suggestion for change, so to speak
*[10:02] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: Seems like there SHOULD be a "working draft" on wiki or googledocs somewhere.
*[10:02] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Latif|Morgaine Dinova: Latif]]: good point. Instead of blowing my top at the latest new documents, I'll try that kind of approach first.
*[10:03] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: The draft posted to the IETF pages is the current working draft
*[10:03] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: So, comments get made against it
*[10:03] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Fleep, you email to the list with proposed text change
*[10:03] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: You have two choices
*[10:03] [[User: Nicky Perian|Nicky Perian]]: sorry have to go rl tc folks
*[10:03] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: You can make comments
*[10:03] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: tc
*[10:03] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: If the process gets too formal early on you get edits like "Replace all of section 2 with what *I* think"
*[10:03] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Or you can propose new langauge
*[10:03] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: Where? Just on the listserv? That's a heck of a hard way to collaboratively write something.
*[10:03] [[User: Honour McMillan|Honour McMillan]]: bye Nicky
*[10:03] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: or.. you can write another draft
*[10:03] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Its VERY 1980s fleeps
*[10:03] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: ok
*[10:03] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: sorry
*[10:03] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: still learning the process.
*[10:03] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: :)
*[10:04] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: it's the way IETF works
*[10:04] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: The IETF theory
*[10:04] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: is that if you have a clay tablet and a wood stick
*[10:04] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: you should be able to comment on a draft
*[10:04] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: so when is IETF switching to google wave?
*[10:04] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
*[10:04] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: doesn't stop people from pulling out a paragraph under discussion and wikiying it up though, right?
*[10:04] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: where do u get clay tablets and sticks?
*[10:04] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: That's your problem
*[10:04] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: And if all submissions have to be in ASCII text, it makes it hard to draw pictures
*[10:04] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: google clay
*[10:04] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: IETF endorse google? heh
*[10:05] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: but you should be able to do it in ascii and push the comment in an e-mail
*[10:05] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: On the whole, the IETF email method works, except for one type of content|Morgaine Dinova: On the whole, the IETF email method works, except for one type of content]]: images. It kind of falls down when you can only describe architectural issues with words.
*[10:05] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: totally lands on its ascii-8 backside there
*[10:06] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I badly want simple pictures
*[10:06] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: I've seen ascii art in drafts
*[10:06] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: u can describe anything with words
*[10:06] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Up to a point, sure
*[10:06] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: is just that in some cases u might have to use lots of words
*[10:06] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Its hard to do beyond very simple ascii art
*[10:06] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: UML sequence dirgarams for example
*[10:06] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: not so much
*[10:07] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Maybe IETF should run their own imageshack, for non-formal images that persist forever to provide the mailing list with graphic content.
*[10:07] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: u don't a PHd in writing to describe something in writing:)
*[10:07] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: A picture often tells it better and more clearly, Rex.
*[10:08] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: So..
*[10:08] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: My lists inclues:
*[10:08] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Presence
*[10:08] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: (as in multiple)
*[10:08] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Asset / inventory singletons
*[10:08] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: Presence(s)
*[10:08] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Regions size/shape fixedness
*[10:08] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Regoin property fixedness
*[10:08] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: property?
*[10:09] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: And a pile of places where there are fixed sets of things, rather than maps of things
*[10:09] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: So, chat distance
*[10:09] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Voice falloff
*[10:09] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: ah
*[10:09] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: correct morgaine. i am just saying that words can explain anyithing, although sometimes in a more lengthy and/or convoluted way:)
*[10:09] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Wherey ou can parcel things
*[10:09] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Good list, Zha
*[10:10] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I'm wondering what I've missed
*[10:10] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: ( I know I have)
*[10:10] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: And the casual
*[10:10] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: I remember seeing mention of chat crossing region boundaries too, that seemed SL specific to me, or at least not protocol dependant
*[10:10] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: "Regoin property" tag
*[10:10] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: is HUGE
*[10:10] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Now, what was theat a list of?
*[10:10] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: As in
*[10:10] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: well. when u will try to implement it, u will see:)
*[10:10] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: How many prims you can have
*[10:10] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: How many types of prims you support
*[10:11] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: Mojito - concerns with the current drafts
*[10:11] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: things to discuss further
*[10:11] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: All the things you might want to know about a regoin in a heterogenous world
*[10:11] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: and amend to be less SL specific perhaps
*[10:11] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Gravitational Constant
*[10:12] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: any conceivable kind of physics]
*[10:12] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: it just seemed a lot of what I was reading was how SL works currently, not what goes over the wire
*[10:12] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: multiple gravity points:)
*[10:12] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: mc excher support'
*[10:12] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: escher
*[10:13] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: The scripting model is another assumption from SL, and a nasty one.
*[10:13] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Which part of it?
*[10:14] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Even just the basic architecture, eg. scripts run world-side only.
*[10:15] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: /me hasn't notice mentions of scripting in the available drafts. did i miss something?
*[10:15] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: people would a lot more conscious of their scripts if the run locally:)
*[10:15] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I've long advocated for two-part scripting, each object having both world-side and client-side active parts.
*[10:15] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Its not there, much and it would ne nice if it was
*[10:15] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: would be a lot*
*[10:15] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: I didnt see scripting either, but I've only breifly scanned a couple of the drafts
*[10:15] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: so there are no scripting assumptions, SL insipired or otherwise
*[10:15] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Well..
*[10:16] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: So.. there are two issues lurking here
*[10:16] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: One.. I don't think anyone expects, in the near term, scripts to easily hop between worlds, which is its own nightmare
*[10:16] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: ie. a sim side AO hopping from one grid to another reuires a LOT of cooperatoin and a lot of compatibility and deep trust
*[10:16] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Latif|Morgaine Dinova: Latif]]: VWRAP has only considered some 15-20% of relevant VW issues so far. No, scripting has not been considered, except during a couple of months during MMOX.
*[10:17] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: so far the only way I know for scripts to cross into other worlds is in source code form
*[10:17] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Morgaine, you're an optimist :D
*[10:17] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Latif|Morgaine Dinova: Latif]]: you could be right, maybe 10%. But it's hard to quantify the number.
*[10:17] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: So my hair can come with me but my AO can;t?
*[10:18] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: so far the only tanglible work has been the type system
*[10:18] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yep
*[10:18] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: Though if AO is in the viewer instead of the avatar, that resolves that, no?
*[10:18] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: The AO is hard to move, because its runnign state
*[10:18] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: dahlia. that can't be true. so many people say is possible to reverse-egineer things. certainly, scripts can't be such a big of a problem:)
*[10:18] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: login is getting close to be defined, but no implementations exists
*[10:18] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: so type system + partial login is all we got
*[10:18] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Well, I've built one, jurliman has one, and I think, Linden sort of had one
*[10:18] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: Rex, LOL
*[10:19] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Zha|Morgaine Dinova: Zha]]: the AO is a classic example of scripting that should be 100% client-side.
*[10:19] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Zha, which client support vwrap authentication?
*[10:19] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: nod
*[10:19] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: And hence fully portable.
*[10:19] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: I never understood why it wasn';t to begin with.
*[10:19] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: as specified in the dfraft?
*[10:19] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: snowglobe 1.3 had support rolled in
*[10:20] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: ah, one of the things lost in v2 mess?
*[10:20] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: before a certain vw hosting company chopped off interop at the knees
*[10:20] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: afaik snowgobe has anciend ogp spec from 18 montsa ago and nothing else
*[10:20] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: :(
*[10:20] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: I'm not sure if even pyogp has VWRAP support any more
*[10:21] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: The patch Pixel submitted to snowglobe
*[10:21] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: includes
*[10:21] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: vwrap style login, and inventory fetch via cap
*[10:21] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Not entirely elegent, but worked out
*[10:21] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: so let's be honest, beyond the working type system, we have very little else... some initial work on login at that's it
*[10:22] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: The old OGP functionality in PhOGP almost certainly doesn't work anymore, because apparently it didn't get updated through the major changes, and so would require a miracle to still work.
*[10:22] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: PyOGP*
*[10:23] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: But despite that, Enus recently restarted work on PyOGP. Not sure if it's related to the change in management, but it coincided with it.
*[10:23] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: So.. That is the second topic
*[10:24] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Assuming the LInden Lab team is AWOL for a while, can we get good forawrd progress with OpenSim and similar?
*[10:24] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Is it worth doing even?
*[10:24] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Zha|Morgaine Dinova: Zha]]: not only worth doing, but inevitable :-)
*[10:24] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: I should note that when SLCC board met with LL, we specifically requested someone to speak on the topic of interop/opensim/TPVs and they didn't freak out, but also haven't committed anything yet.
*[10:24] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: (and I assume, Linden will either come back when they m ust, or become irrlevent)
*[10:24] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Zha, I doubt VWRAP will have that much traction to be honest
*[10:24] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: We are meeting again this week.
*[10:25] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn: Latif, depends|Saijanai Kuhn: Latif, depends]]: will LL allow at least TP between worlds even if inventory and what not aren't yet supported?
*[10:25] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: there is another possibility. something new might show up:)
*[10:25] [[User: Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: Enus is working on a phython client for automated testing.
*[10:26] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: I'm sure there is a lot of interest in interop among OpenSim users and contributors
*[10:26] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: TechWolf, yeah, but part of that testing originally was going to be the OGP stuff. Hence the name
*[10:26] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Sai, LL is in maintanence mode. they cannot afford to work on the future of their own platform, much less on adding interop features
*[10:26] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: not sure if it's all VWRAP focused tho
*[10:26] [[User: Fleep Tuque: (noob ?|Fleep Tuque: (noob ?]]: what does OGP stand for?)
*[10:26] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Open Grid Protocol
*[10:26] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: thx
*[10:27] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Open Gird Prootocl
*[10:27] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Linden's first attempt at a name
*[10:27] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: And fwiw, I think Latif is right.
*[10:27] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: a VWRAP viewer patch shared among various viewer devs would help a lot
*[10:27] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I don't think Linden is going to do any serious interop work until they sort out thier current mess
*[10:27] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Fleep, OGP was original name for VWRAP until nit-pickers objected to the world "grid" because they thought it implied 2d flat world (just shows you how productive the debate in tehse forums are)
*[10:27] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: Forge ahead without them, if you wait for them, you'll be waiting long time is my guess.
*[10:27] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Looks to me like VWRAP has a ton of traction. Hurli's working towards that model directly, and he's unstoppable. And, very importantly, he seems to be on a sensible track, and supports multi-world interop. So it looks to me like we have a huge amount of traction on the practical front, and unless there are major problems with it, then I see it as the basis of VWRAP work on standards.
*[10:27] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: (To Latif)
*[10:28] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Abnd in some serious sense they can't do anything because they don't have an easy path to allowing the grid to open, I suspeect
*[10:28] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: Even if they wanted to
*[10:28] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: whover "they" is these days.
*[10:28] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Linden?
*[10:28] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: yeah
*[10:28] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: they can always create a telepad sim if they want to, even on the main grid
*[10:28] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: There are still some solid devs lurkign in the shop
*[10:29] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: But, if this weekend was any indicatoin, they are going to be busy bailoing out the bilges
*[10:29] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: What happened on the weekend?
*[10:29] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: no doubt they have quality devs, but they also have braindead exec management team
*[10:29] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: inventory issues
*[10:29] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: 1.40 rollback
*[10:29] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: and rollback
*[10:29] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: They had to roll back 1.40.2 because it killed people' stuffs
*[10:29] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: lots of 1.40 sim issues last weekend
*[10:30] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and people still have stuff in limbo
*[10:30] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: nod
*[10:30] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: they are so short-sighted if it was not tragic it would've been funny
*[10:30] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Ah, yeah, the system falling apart. But don't blame that on management.
*[10:30] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Enus' project should be the highest priority project in all of LL and yet its the lowest
*[10:30] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: LOL Morgaine
*[10:30] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: AFAIAA, M didn't write any C++ code.
*[10:31] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Well, a lack of testing, and resouce and then total lack of transparency about what's going on, is at least somewhat a management issue, btu yes
*[10:31] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: He doodled! And had meetins. (Sorry couldn't resist)
*[10:31] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: M didn't code the bugs
*[10:31] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Just put in place the teams and priorities which let them flourish
*[10:31] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: nobody writes bug free code. but managers put process in place, and decide on what priorities are
*[10:32] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: The base 1.40.2 bug, is if you are logged into a sim which crashesh stuff gets badly bnorked.
*[10:32] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: The lack of transparency is the single biggest issue that drags everything down.
*[10:32] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: That should have shonw up in testing
*[10:32] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i agree Feep
*[10:32] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: People have absolutely no idea what they are going to do./decide/;change tomorrow
*[10:33] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: You can't expect people to contribute and invest in that kind of environment.
*[10:33] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: I've lost attachments in sim crashes long before 1.40
*[10:33] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: considering how many people go to beta to test things, can u really blame the linens:)
*[10:33] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Rex, programmable bots that do randomish things are pefectly doable with pyogp and libomv. THe only thing you can't test right now are the graphics related stuff
*[10:34] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: This was way more brutal than lost attachments
*[10:34] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Well that's what you get with monolithic code, one bad line can screw up the whole kaboodle. It's not the way to write complex systems.
*[10:34] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: and in fact, on the mac, you CAN test the graphics stuff... Instruments is pretty slick
*[10:34] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: if you were on a 1.40.2 sim which crahed ou lost the attachment
*[10:34] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: those bots aren't that easy to write, and they certainly don't write themselves:)
*[10:34] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and permananetly had the spot blocked by the bad item
*[10:35] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: a proper scripting language client-side WOULD allow you to automate the scripting
*[10:35] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: graphics with bots on a Mac? now that's impressive
*[10:35] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Dahlia, bots with the reguar viewer
*[10:37] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: As we're into the last half hour, do we have any ideas for future non-SL meetings? And Dahlia, did you manage to gather any data on the crashes last week?
*[10:37] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: http://developer.apple.com/mac/library/documentation/DeveloperTools/Conceptual/InstrumentsUserGuide/WorkingWithaMasterTrack/WorkingWithaMasterTrack.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40004652-CH8-SW1
*[10:38] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I was really impressed at the turnout last week. :-)
*[10:38] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: Despite the crashing, I think it's worth doing
*[10:38] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Iwould like t try and OWL sim atsome point. It hink we can ask Maggie to chase it
*[10:38] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: they were mono crashes Morgaine, they didn't make it into the log file :(
*[10:38] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: Good experience and good reminder of what we're working for in the first place.
*[10:38] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Oh, pooh, Dahlia.
*[10:38] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Groupies showed a lot of committment, and of course Dahlia did a lot of good work :-)
*[10:38] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Those are pissy to sort out
*[10:38] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: next time I'll try windows
*[10:38] [[User: Honour McMillan|Honour McMillan]]: /me is sorry she missed it!
*[10:39] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: u only missed crashes
*[10:39] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: And some good discussion
*[10:39] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: What parts of Mono crash? Or is not even that known?
*[10:39] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Rex, don't be evil lol
*[10:39] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Dhalia, did you click on that link?
*[10:39] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: dunno, the stack traces scrolled off the console
*[10:39] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: we had productive discussion inbetween crashes too ;)
*[10:40] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Mono is quite a liability. Pity that.
*[10:40] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: sometimes the truth looks that way:)
*[10:40] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yeah Dahlia, rewrite it in elrang :P
*[10:41] [[User: Dahlia Trimble: speaking of erlang|Dahlia Trimble: speaking of erlang]]: http://www.codexon.com/posts/debunking-the-erlang-and-haskell-hype-for-servers
*[10:41] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: If one could identify what is crashing in Mono, then that part could certainly be rewritten in Erlang.
*[10:42] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: So.. I strongly encourage people to read the drafts and look for the assumptions and I would love to list them out, and takl about how to tackle some of them
*[10:43] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: In terms of process, and speeding it up, once the issues are identified it will be easier for people to work on one or two than try to suggest fixes for all of them. Breaking it down into manageable pieces.
*[10:43] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: I'll try to scan thru them and I'll probably find more to whine about, but I dont know if I can make time to suggest alternate text
*[10:43] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Dahlia, if you have issues that bother you
*[10:44] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Get them out here, and I'll see how to help with the later
*[10:44] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: in that vein, thanks to all the contributors for the efforts so far :)
*[10:44] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: Evenif you don't have time to write the text, just shouting out when you see something of concern is good.
*[10:44] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I'm looking for what I've missed
*[10:44] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: exactly fleep
*[10:44] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I have my list
*[10:44] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and I'll be readin to grow it out
*[10:44] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: but more eyes and more brains would be very good
*[10:47] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: k
*[10:47] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Looksl ike we're out of steam for today
*[10:47] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Anyone else who wants to nominate a world to meet in, should do so
*[10:47] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Either a totally seperate one (such as OWL) or another grid we should try in OpenSim land.
*[10:47] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: I'll nominate Reaction Grid if I get a chance to chat with Kyle later this week
*[10:48] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: OWL would be fun
*[10:48] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: but for now must run
*[10:48] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Both :-)
*[10:48] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: see y'all later
*[10:48] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: OWL?
*[10:48] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Cyu Fleep :-)
*[10:48] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: tc
*[10:48] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: would a croquet meeting work?
*[10:49] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: they just released their officiual alpha 1.0 for croquet bTW
*[10:52] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: i guess meeting is over?
*[10:52] [[User: Honour McMillan|Honour McMillan]]: kk bye all - til next week :)
*[10:52] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Croquet is totally on the table if we want it
*[10:52] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: tc
*[10:52] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: bye :)
*[10:52] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: I'll mention it to Croquet Hax. Not sure when we could have a full meeting on an island though
*[10:52] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i'm not installing new clients to go to a vwrap meeting :P
*[10:53] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: i am with latif on this one:)
*[10:53] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: Croquet is kinda fun but I needed someone to tell me how to use it
*[10:53] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Well, every so often a fild trip is interesting
*[10:53] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Talk to Croquet Hax or Tapple Gao next time they're on, Dahlia
*[10:54] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: ya they helped me last time I tried it
*[10:54] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: OK, everyone, we can look at field trip options. And possibly plan some more
*[10:54] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: it got better....
*[10:54] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I think once a month, its worth doing.
*[10:54] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: andrew hold OH in 5 min, will be interesting to hear what happened with 1.40
*[10:54] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: /me strretches
*[10:54] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: It's pretty important to experience different worlds, else you get wholly ingrained in the SL/Opensim experience. VWs are bigger than just that.
*[10:54] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Dang its hot
*[10:54] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: pretty cool in denmark today
*[10:55] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: 100F in NYC today
*[10:55] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: cheee
*[10:55] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: time to go to andrew's oh. tc everybody
*[10:55] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: and have fun:)
*[10:55] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: 18C here
*[10:55] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: ouch
*[10:55] [[User: Apollo Reinard|Apollo Reinard]]: thanks for the listen. cu all.
*[10:55] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: its not much hotter than that in TUcson, AZ
*[10:55] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: that's about 65F i think
*[10:55] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: cool here today
*[10:55] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: What amazes me, is that I totally dress in SL based on the RL heat.
*[10:56] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hehehe
*[10:56] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: LOL I do that too
*[10:56] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: anyone got a slurl ot Andy's OH?
*[10:56] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: /me just tries to never go outside during sunlight hours, at least int eh summer
*[10:57] [[User: XLR8RRICK Hudson|XLR8RRICK Hudson]]: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Denby/213/45/34 (Starts in 4 minutes)
*[10:57] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: /me is poofing out of here... bye all :)
*[10:57] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: laters

[Category:Grid_Interoperability_Chat_Logs]]
[[Category:AW_Groupies_Transcripts]]
[[Category:MMOX]]

AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2010-07-13

2010-07-20T13:54:56Z

Saijanai Kuhn: Created page with '*[09:35] Rex Cronon: hiiiii.... *[09:35] Youri Ashton: hey rex *[09:35] Rex Cronon: hi youri *[09:35] [[User: Dzo...'

*[09:35] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: hiiiii....
*[09:35] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: hey rex
*[09:35] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: hi youri
*[09:35] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: Hi
*[09:35] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: hi dzonatas?
*[09:35] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: woops
*[09:36] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: the question mark is a typo:)
*[09:36] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: mmhmm
*[09:36] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: i'll get another coffee
*[09:38] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: hmmm...
*[09:38] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: hey
*[09:39] [[User: Yakuzza Lethecus|Yakuzza Lethecus]]: hey everyone
*[09:40] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: hey
*[09:40] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: /me waves
*[09:40] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: hi yakuzza
*[09:40] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: /me steals morg's sword
*[09:40] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: /me waves to the assembled thong in greeting....err...throng.
*[09:40] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: thong. haha
*[09:41] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: ewww. are there REALLY ppls here USING 2.0? is this some kinda wierd protest move or something...?
*[09:41] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Don't steal the thong, the puritans might get upset
*[09:41] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: Yes, I use 2.x
*[09:41] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: i used it untill hell broke loose earlier today
*[09:41] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: more like... ewwww... you make us programming support OLD code
*[09:41] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: some like it, others want to get used to it
*[09:42] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: but ill wait till the rest gets in
*[09:42] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: interresting story
*[09:42] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: /me isn't sure he feels comfortable around so many real masochists, and hope's it isn't catching...
*[09:42] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: There's no accounting for taste in UIs, even when something is as braindead as 2.x. Different people like different UIs, period.
*[09:42] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: Turn the UI off... simple
*[09:42] [[User: Honour McMillan|Honour McMillan]]: LOL well I use it unless I'm trying to build :)
*[09:42] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: scary.
*[09:43] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: Then again... I use SNOW-375 and not just vanilla LLUI
*[09:43] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: troth. u don't like it. right? just want to make sure. ok
*[09:43] [[User: xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]: ? UI off = Dead Program
*[09:44] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: is there a topic today? or just a get together so we can all rant in person together, virtually speaking?
*[09:44] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: xtorm... not so when you have an UI plugin
*[09:44] [[User: Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]: Zha's unavailable until 10:30 according to notice
*[09:44] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Zha's not arriving until 1030, family committment. It's free for all until then
*[09:44] [[User: LathaSerevi|LathaSerevi]]: check.
*[09:44] [[User: xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]: i hate to say this but a UI plugin may not work
*[09:45] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: then you don't know my work
*[09:45] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: i guess ill start with my topic then
*[09:45] [[User: xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]: you still need some form of UI to do the UI plugin
*[09:45] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: sicne it's a very interresting one
*[09:45] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: if you guys dont mind
*[09:45] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: SNOW-375 allows client-side scripting... add any UI flavor you want
*[09:46] [[User: Vernes Veranes|Vernes Veranes]]: Sounds intteresting.
*[09:46] [[User: xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]: better to just make a plugin menu
*[09:46] [[User: Honour McMillan|Honour McMillan]]: go for it Youri :)
*[09:46] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: better to see you attemp to do a better UI so we can evaluate it =)
*[09:46] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Youri|Morgaine Dinova: Youri]]: We can't tell if we mind until we hear it :-) or at least until you tell us the topic :-)
*[09:46] [[User: xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]: more then half the people out there will have no clue what to do
*[09:46] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: I was teleporting back to Pooley with my alt avi when i noticed i couldnt teleport. no problem would you think...
*[09:46] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: i moved to grasmere to try again
*[09:47] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: and CRASH
*[09:47] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: i got back in (faster then usually)
*[09:47] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: xstorm|Morgaine Dinova: xstorm]]: you've just defined the human conditionj. Except that it's 90%
*[09:47] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: lol
*[09:47] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: and noticed there were NO sims around grasmere!
*[09:47] [[User: Vernes Veranes|Vernes Veranes]]: ok...
*[09:47] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: i was trapped, i couldnt tp out, couldnt fly out
*[09:47] [[User: xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]: Youri that was not yester day was it for i called for a restart on pooly yester day
*[09:47] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: what i don't like is that almost always when i crash i have to wait 3-5 minutes until it lets me back in:(
*[09:47] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: If we spent all day worrying about people that don't know what to do, we'd get nothing done
*[09:48] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: and is not my fault:(
*[09:48] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: and going back home didnt work either
*[09:48] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: buildings and land did NOT have any names, owners or any other info it usually does have
*[09:48] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: Morgaine... 90%.... i can still say gaga googoo... but my body had its own way when i wasn't thinking
*[09:49] [[User: xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]: oh Youri cool you found my black hole i lost
*[09:49] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: besides that, buildings were dissapearing, attached prims either simply dissapeared or detached without me doing anything
*[09:49] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: no, not a black hole
*[09:49] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: i did see grasmere itself
*[09:49] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: youri, that's called..... (dramatic wierd music plays)
*[09:49] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: ...the Twilight Zone.
*[09:49] [[User: Vernes Veranes: Youri|Vernes Veranes: Youri]]: Weird server communications?
*[09:49] [[User: xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]: lol
*[09:49] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: lol. i was going to say tha:)
*[09:49] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: could be
*[09:49] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: i wasnt however the only one in that direct region having that problem
*[09:50] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: of the 18 people i asked, 14 had the same or similar problems
*[09:50] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: were u there maybe when it was being restarting and going down? how long did it last? few mins?
*[09:50] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: so it wasnt just between the server and me
*[09:50] [[User: Vernes Veranes|Vernes Veranes]]: Did you make a report? or found a similair one?
*[09:50] [[User: xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]: Youri you did not get stuck when they did the switch to the old server to repair a problem did you ?
*[09:50] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: not restarted
*[09:50] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: some libomv devs i read want to switch to C/C++ instead of C#... thought that was... interesting discussion
*[09:50] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: people seemed to fly in and out
*[09:50] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: even teleporting
*[09:50] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: but i couldnt
*[09:51] [[User: xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]: sounds like network timing problem
*[09:51] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: i had to get on emerald and set that to home and even then i had problems
*[09:51] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: inventory loss, detached prims, etc
*[09:51] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: and today i got another one of these "[9:33] Unable to create requested object. Object is missing from database." :(
*[09:51] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: teleporting and moving over sim lines was solved then though
*[09:51] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: often such things appear to be going on when a server is shutting down or crashing, and most problems like that are relative. e.g. u try to tp and u 'can't' - but others would see u as tp-ing...
*[09:51] [[User: Tiny Blue Kitty Head|Tiny Blue Kitty Head]]: All Go
*[09:52] [[User: xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]: thats Network timing problems did you file a ticket ?
*[09:52] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: there is a ticket yes
*[09:52] [[User: Youri Ashton: #|Youri Ashton: #]]: 00849231
*[09:52] [[User: xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]: cool
*[09:52] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: I notified Blondin and nyx as well
*[09:53] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: both were not online at that time though
*[09:53] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: Nyx asked me to post the ticket as well, but was already done
*[09:53] [[User: xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]: i was stuck in a sim that way one time but had to relog 2 times to get it fix
*[09:53] [[User: Vernes Veranes|Vernes Veranes]]: Ok, but you're asking if anyone else had this problem?
*[09:53] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: Also posted pictures so they can see what i was seeing
*[09:54] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: test
*[09:54] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: I am asking if anyone else has a similar problem around that area and if people can test it out, perhaps we can find out what is going on
*[09:54] [[User: Vernes Veranes|Vernes Veranes]]: Hi Rex
*[09:54] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: tong
*[09:54] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: hi vernes
*[09:54] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: if any group can do that, then it is this group
*[09:55] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: only way i got out savely is going but nekid
*[09:55] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: meaning no clothes either
*[09:55] [[User: xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]: lol
*[09:55] [[User: Honour McMillan|Honour McMillan]]: o.O
*[09:55] [[User: xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]: ha ha ha ha ha ha
*[09:55] [[User: Vernes Veranes|Vernes Veranes]]: This problem needs top priority! :P
*[09:55] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: weird i know, but was the only way to get out
*[09:56] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: /
*[09:56] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: /names
*[09:56] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: so.. if any of you guys can help me out getting that sim and the sims around it tested
*[09:57] [[User: Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: getting naked sounds fun - what sim?
*[09:57] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: then we might get the problem and solution
*[09:57] [[User: Honour McMillan|Honour McMillan]]: have you been back to it Youri?
*[09:57] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: Grasmere
*[09:57] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: Grasmere - Pooley
*[09:57] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: don't worry xstorm. i don't plan to start shooting:)
*[09:57] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: that area
*[09:57] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: honour?
*[09:57] [[User: xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]: good collistion tests show this sim can not take it
*[09:58] [[User: Honour McMillan|Honour McMillan]]: ignore me - sorry :) give me a sec I'll go visit
*[09:58] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: lol
*[09:58] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: would be great
*[09:59] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: im thinking further in this one, if a experienced user has huge problems te get out, then I am affraid that if it happens to newbies or not so smart users, that they will stop with SL, which is another hit to the SL economy
*[09:59] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: cant have that
*[10:00] [[User: Vernes Veranes|Vernes Veranes]]: Perhaps the client should be able to able to rely less on the server updates?
*[10:00] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: besides, i noticed someone up at at least 2000m
*[10:00] [[User: Vernes Veranes|Vernes Veranes]]: Not possible at this moment, I know
*[10:00] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: in south west corner
*[10:00] [[User: Honour McMillan|Honour McMillan]]: well I think I still have clothes on :)
*[10:00] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: I've been up to 182787498723m
*[10:01] [[User: Vernes Veranes|Vernes Veranes]]: I'm thinking about the statement Dzonatas Sol made...
*[10:01] [[User: Honour McMillan|Honour McMillan]]: apart from a naked noobie underwater - I didn't see anything odd
*[10:01] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: when i tried to get to that person it escaped in no time. so it might be that Grasmere got hijacked
*[10:01] [[User: xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]: did you ar the nude new person ?
*[10:02] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: hey philip just got online
*[10:02] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: vernes, rely less on server updates... that would be first separate all inventory functions away from the renderer
*[10:02] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: keep them not even in the same loop at all
*[10:02] [[User: Honour McMillan|Honour McMillan]]: no - they're under 20 m of water - who could they offend? and they were away - probably in embarassment
*[10:02] [[User: Vernes Veranes|Vernes Veranes]]: For instance, yes.
*[10:02] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: could be even separate processes entirely
*[10:03] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: i could upload a few pics to my flcker page quickly if it could help
*[10:04] [[User: Vernes Veranes: Dzonatas|Vernes Veranes: Dzonatas]]: I always wondered if the SL client could be supplied with static data. Single purpose version.
*[10:04] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: it could
*[10:04] [[User: Honour McMillan|Honour McMillan]]: what viewer were you using Youri?
*[10:04] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: just need a way to hook asset loads
*[10:04] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: uploading...
*[10:04] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: was using 2.0
*[10:04] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: i rather not do it by proxy yet try to use a generic asset dispatcher
*[10:04] [[User: Honour McMillan|Honour McMillan]]: well there goes that idea - so was I :)
*[10:05] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: lol
*[10:05] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: all the prims set to "locked" are good candidates to test static data
*[10:05] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: http://www.flickr.com/photos/42984343@N03/sets/72157624361935441/
*[10:05] [[User: Honour McMillan|Honour McMillan]]: /me wants to look cool like xstorm when she grows up.
*[10:05] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: few pictures of that specific event
*[10:06] [[User: Vernes Veranes: Dzonata|Vernes Veranes: Dzonata]]: Some kind of cached package. Like Dell Island, or IBM Sim. Your cached data can get updated through the server communication, but it doesn't matter.
*[10:06] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Youri|Morgaine Dinova: Youri]]: several months ago I proposed a change in the teleport protocol for VWRAP, precisely to handle your kind of issue, escaping from a sim that has problems.
*[10:06] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: yeah you mentioned that indeed
*[10:06] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: hey identity
*[10:07] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: hey hey IE
*[10:07] [[User: Identity Euler|Identity Euler]]: hi :), sorry for being late
*[10:07] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: anyone see the problem on the pictures?
*[10:07] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: With interop, it's going to be very common for regions to be non-responsive. It's necessary to be able to teleport out in such situations, without dropping the client.
*[10:07] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: Vernes, I actually suggested that to the maillists... you'll have to battle through opensim source mainatiner... oh whats her name
*[10:08] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: cause she thinks its not client/server enough
*[10:08] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: 'late' - it's a such a relative term, and without the context of time, it'd be so...so... (what's the word?)...irrelevant?
*[10:09] [[User: Vernes Veranes: Dzonatas|Vernes Veranes: Dzonatas]]: Because it isn't :P It's like putting FireFox on a usb-stick, removing almost everything and using it as a game instead.
*[10:09] [[User: Vincenzo427 Ferraris|Vincenzo427 Ferraris]]: hi
*[10:09] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: hi new people
*[10:09] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: why would it be so common, morgaine, if the clients and servers are well-designed and configured?
*[10:09] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: hi
*[10:09] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Thoth|Morgaine Dinova: Thoth]]: you have to be kidding
*[10:09] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: Vernes, yet they are even discussion optimizing "locked" prims... so its ironic
*[10:09] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: no, i'm not.
*[10:10] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: anyways, it may be the server communications, but anyone having a possible solution? suggestions?
*[10:10] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: bottomeline... too much confusion
*[10:10] [[User: Honour McMillan|Honour McMillan]]: Youri I certainly can't help but I'd love to know if you find out what it was. :)
*[10:10] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: just have to get programs out there that actually do it
*[10:10] [[User: Honour McMillan|Honour McMillan]]: since you had to escape naked - could the asset server be at fault?
*[10:10] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: oh ill keep the group up to date if you all like to know
*[10:10] [[User: Vernes Veranes: Dzonatas|Vernes Veranes: Dzonatas]]: They have dicussed locked prims?
*[10:10] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: i don't link... yes
*[10:11] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: i have a feeling its a new griever method
*[10:11] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: have*
*[10:11] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: a new griefing method?
*[10:11] [[User: Honour McMillan|Honour McMillan]]: they want us all stuck in place and naked?
*[10:11] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: since it affects only a few and directly seemed to be targeted at my avi
*[10:11] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: it should be possible, for example, to create some sort of synchronization peiord when a new client logs into a sim from a different grid, for example...if it is even necessary. or we talking different things?
*[10:12] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: one thing about "locked" prims is that it really doesn't need the server side to do anything different
*[10:12] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: well... kinda like the common prim traps, but then a sim trap....
*[10:12] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Thoth|Morgaine Dinova: Thoth]]: OK, so I'll give you a genuine answer then. Because (i) the region was running on the home PC and it was big sister's turn to use it. (ii) Because mom pulled out the PC plug to use the vacuum cleaner. (iii) Because ISPs go down. (iv) Because routing on the Internet fails. (v) because software designers are often crap. (vi)....(XXX) left as an exercise for the reader.
*[10:12] [[User: Honour McMillan|Honour McMillan]]: interesting - I'll do some research and see if there are any mumbles about that
*[10:12] [[User: Vernes Veranes: Dzonatas|Vernes Veranes: Dzonatas]]: Where would I be able to find a log about the discussion?
*[10:12] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: since i kept seeing newbies of 1 day old in the sim shooting off when i got near them
*[10:12] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: yet I think the idea was to archive them differently... which was dicussed years ago
*[10:12] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: google it... =)
*[10:12] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: oh.
*[10:13] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: if it is indeed a new type of griefer weapon, we all are fucked
*[10:13] [[User: Vernes Veranes|Vernes Veranes]]: *pouts*
*[10:13] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: i didnt think about the mom/vacuum clearner thing.
*[10:13] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: got me there.
*[10:13] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: if it trapped me that easily, why wouldnt it trap any of you for example... or for that matter... a Linden
*[10:13] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: if i knew the interest more i would have saved the link of dicussions
*[10:14] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: i was stuck there for about 3 hours
*[10:14] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: and i think i missed something before (happens when 2/3 threads going on at once).
*[10:14] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: i thought they would realize its another "dead end" for them when it moved away from server biz
*[10:14] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: To put it another way|Morgaine Dinova: To put it another way]]: A protocol designed to work only in the absence of failures is a toy.
*[10:14] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: usually sai posts transcripts
*[10:14] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: r u here sai?
*[10:14] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: /me agrees.
*[10:14] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: he is
*[10:14] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: new toys? o.O
*[10:15] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: it isnt just a toy for us, its a toy as well for griefers. if they managed to hijack a sim like that.....
*[10:15] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hi Dahlia :-)
*[10:15] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: hi :)
*[10:15] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: having hard time following the convo myself
*[10:15] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: even your tag is color-coordinated. cute touch. very 'pink'. ;o)
*[10:15] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: only briefly Rex. Still asleep
*[10:15] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: ty :)
*[10:16] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: ok. just checking on u:)
*[10:16] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hehe, good point about colour coordinated with Imprudence tag :-)
*[10:16] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Is there a viewer with a blue tag?
*[10:17] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: anyways, would be good to have some people of this group look into it as well, in the hope we can find the source of the problem or find a solution to stop the problem
*[10:17] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: your can u list again the symptoms?
*[10:17] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: will look for transcript for summary on what the problem was, I was late.
*[10:18] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: auto detaching of attachments
*[10:18] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: or even disapearing of attachements in whole
*[10:18] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: What viewer?
*[10:18] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: sim looked like a island instead of mainland
*[10:18] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: Attachments have been completely and totally horked all week
*[10:18] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: 2.0 fleep
*[10:18] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: temp inventory loss
*[10:18] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: I've spent half this week bald.
*[10:18] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: no TP or sim crossing possible
*[10:19] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: having te be completely nekid to even be able te get out...
*[10:19] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: So you're saying it was specific to a particular sim?
*[10:19] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: well, in grasmere it was really bad
*[10:20] [[User: xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]: when there is a network timing problem you can be trap in a sim with no way out
*[10:20] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: Vernes, its a really good idea... just hard one to get off the ground
*[10:20] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: but pooley and... euhm... whats the sim in between? where Nyx's office is? that was all affected
*[10:20] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: grasnere is a linden employee sim isnt it?
*[10:20] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: its linden village
*[10:20] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: yah think so
*[10:20] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: so yes
*[10:20] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: if all the sims around your sim crashed then your sim will seem to be an island
*[10:20] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: its near that foot island
*[10:20] [[User: Thoth Jantzen: (rex: missed ur question earlier|Thoth Jantzen: (rex: missed ur question earlier]]: i officially, intensely, vocally, permanenly, and eternally dislike 2.x. ;o) just so there's no lingering ambiguity.)
*[10:20] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: hah!
*[10:21] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: ok thoth:)
*[10:21] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: lol
*[10:21] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: As if there were any ambiguity about how folks feel about V2 here. </lone wolf>
*[10:21] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: ;)
*[10:21] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: But it's been a wreck this week to be sure.
*[10:21] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: I like the little icons for each conversation, and I like the alpha skins
*[10:21] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: Attachments in particular have been especially problematic.
*[10:22] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: also got kicked out of SL pretty often, even if there was no lag at all, no attachements, every setting on minimum
*[10:22] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: euhm.. lets say between 10 to 30 minutes before a new crash occured
*[10:23] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: youri, what version of emerald u using? (as if that should make a diff...but just wondering)
*[10:23] [[User: Identity Euler|Identity Euler]]: I like media in 2.0 ㋡ but not all do ^^
*[10:23] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: latest version was today downloaded
*[10:23] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: kk
*[10:24] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: Emerald Viewer 1.23.5 (1636) Jun 29 2010 02:23:23 (Emerald Viewer Release)
*[10:24] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: was latest i could find
*[10:24] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: /me won't talk about media in 2.x just now fearing retaliation for hijacking discussion direction). ;o)
*[10:24] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Have the checkboxes to turn off Javascript and Flash appeared in the latest 2.x yet?
*[10:25] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: before coming there 2.x was running perfectly
*[10:25] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: media is always muted and disabled with me
*[10:26] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: well, as i recall grasmere is a linden sim - so what could be going on there to make it so unstable, and why would it be allowed to be unstable so long?
*[10:26] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: i was running it normally when i got in, in the end it turned off everything not needed
*[10:26] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: so was running on minimum
*[10:26] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Not talking about wholesale turning off MoaP. There were going to be separate checkboxes to enable Javascript and Flash, so that static pages in MoaP still work despite the checkboxes being off.
*[10:26] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: I dunno I'm not on the latest beta/firstlook/whatever
*[10:26] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: I can't even keep track anymore.
*[10:26] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: i don't think the lindens pay attention to all sims. u have to AR governor linden for them to take a look at a sim:(
*[10:26] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: I can check quick
*[10:26] [[User: Youri Ashton: for those that missed it, this is what i been seeing earlier today|Youri Ashton: for those that missed it, this is what i been seeing earlier today]]: Emerald Viewer 1.23.5 (1636) Jun 29 2010 02:23:23 (Emerald Viewer Release)
*[10:27] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: even their own?
*[10:27] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: uhg
*[10:27] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: http://www.flickr.com/photos/42984343@N03/sets/72157624361935441/
*[10:28] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: those picks look to me like borked asset server probs...?
*[10:28] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: 2 or 3 lindens use governor linden
*[10:28] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: could be thoth, but then mixed with othe rproblems
*[10:28] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: or at least ur connection to it...?
*[10:29] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: asset server problems doesnt cutt away other sims
*[10:29] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: you can still move over simborders with a asset server problem. i could clearly not
*[10:29] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: if you look at the pictures closly you notice it was showing as 1 sim only
*[10:29] [[User: xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]: but network timing can cut away other sims
*[10:30] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: yes
*[10:30] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: which is not supost to be for grasmere
*[10:30] [[User: Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: /names
*[10:30] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: grasmere has on all sides sims
*[10:30] [[User: xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]: i have seen a network timing go wrong for some people and not othere people
*[10:31] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: xstorm, that could be done once in a while. not 3 hours long with lots of crashes, relogs etc
*[10:32] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: if all those neighboring sims are on same boxes/servers then if something's wrong with the box's connectivity then likely something like that could be result...?
*[10:32] [[User: xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]: the ones that was in a sim when the timing has gone bad had no problem at times but others as they teleport in have been trap in the sim and to them it looks like the other sims was gone
*[10:32] [[User: xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]: i have seen it last up to 4 weeks
*[10:32] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: megaprims can stop u from walking across sim borders
*[10:32] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: was no mega prim around
*[10:32] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: i checked for that
*[10:33] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: i checked for litter up to 4000 meter
*[10:33] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: unless u use raycast is kind of hard to fingd a 64km cube:(
*[10:33] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: hmm... could be rex, that you dont see indeed
*[10:33] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: Dunno if you can read that
*[10:34] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: that's the screen where the checkboxes appear Morgaine
*[10:34] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: in the latest V2
*[10:34] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: i say nuke the region and restart it.
*[10:34] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: crappy pix but yes the checkboxes are there
*[10:34] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: Enable plugins
*[10:34] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: Accept cookies
*[10:34] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: Enable javascript
*[10:34] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: Enable Web Proxy
*[10:35] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: not just grasmere, its the entire area there
*[10:35] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: those are the options
*[10:35] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: i think there r some griefing things that break havok. when that happens the whole sim feels weird
*[10:35] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: its all very laggy there and giving problems all around
*[10:35] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: that's what i mean...
*[10:35] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: likely those sims all run off same server/machine...
*[10:35] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: toggle the power switch. ;o)
*[10:35] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: i told Blondin that i wanted to speak to him about the Linden Village, since it is more used as a griever paradise thena linden village
*[10:35] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: simple.
*[10:36] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: youri. come to andrew's OH today and tell him about it
*[10:36] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: think LL does well rethinking that direct area
*[10:36] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: good point rex, i will
*[10:36] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: ill fix up a notecard for him
*[10:37] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: else we loose an entire hour on that subject alone
*[10:39] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: How bizarre, just downloaded and installed this latest beta of 2.x and it's got notifications stored from like the last two weeks or something
*[10:39] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: every time someone paid me, etc.
*[10:39] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: typing out the notecard in the meanwhile
*[10:39] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: maybe they fixed the viewer
*[10:39] [[User: Honour McMillan|Honour McMillan]]: /me makes todo list - update v2, visit Linden Village, try to get out more often :)
*[10:40] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: I dunno I'm just happy my hair showed up for a change.
*[10:40] [[User: Honour McMillan|Honour McMillan]]: lol
*[10:40] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: the reason u weren't getting those notifications in the first place was that the old viewer did something wrong
*[10:40] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: fps rate is better in 2.1 at the cost of vectors
*[10:40] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: time for me to get back to the salt mines. good luck - but u you know, maybe it's just that grasmere suffers the same problem as washington dc, and it's not fixable.
*[10:40] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: settings to Low is now like Ultra Low
*[10:40] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: tc thoth
*[10:40] [[User: Thoth Jantzen|Thoth Jantzen]]: ciao
*[10:41] [[User: Honour McMillan|Honour McMillan]]: bye
*[10:41] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: If nothing else on agenda, can I ask for a brief summary of hypergrid and how it differs from the vwrap watchamacallit? Like if I had to explain to someone else who's asking, i dunno exactly what to say.
*[10:41] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: but for club goers that are stuck inside a cubical room area... turning down trees and and other mesh detail automatically may be good
*[10:42] [[User: Honour McMillan|Honour McMillan]]: I second Fleep's question :)
*[10:42] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: i think we should have wiki page that explains hypergrid:)
*[10:43] [[User: Honour McMillan|Honour McMillan]]: that would be a good idea - it only works on open sims that have adopted it right?
*[10:43] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: Sorry if it's one of those oh god not again kind of questions.
*[10:43] [[User: Honour McMillan|Honour McMillan]]: hmmm kk - maybe a wiki would be best then :)
*[10:43] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: It's a good question. Dahlia will know the answer.
*[10:45] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: K, it's not urgent kind of thing, just want to make sure I don't sound like an idiot. :)
*[10:45] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: More than usual anyway.
*[10:45] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: I looked briefly on the wiki and elsewhere and couldn't find anything succinct or particularly helpful for non technical peoples.
*[10:45] [[User: Honour McMillan|Honour McMillan]]: I've already had to ask once this week - you can let me be the idiot :)
*[10:46] [[User: Latha Serevi: Short answer|Latha Serevi: Short answer]]: hypergrid was the original opensim thing, SimianGrid is the new php-based code led by Hurli that's sort of going to be hypergrid-meets-VWRAP, and VWRAP is a half-finished standards process.
*[10:47] [[User: Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]: but I wish I understood where hypergrid is going now.
*[10:47] [[User: Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]: (and the above is subject to correction, I"m not 100% on it)
*[10:48] [[User: Honour McMillan|Honour McMillan]]: :) thank you Latha - I think
*[10:48] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: General background on HG -- http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Hypergrid
*[10:48] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: Ok, that's helpful. Thanks Latha
*[10:49] [[User: Honour McMillan|Honour McMillan]]: thank you Morgaine!
*[10:50] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: That's perfect, thanks mOrgaine
*[10:50] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: I dunno how I didn't find that. sheesh
*[10:51] [[User: Honour McMillan|Honour McMillan]]: kk I'll go update v2 and see what happens :) tc all
*[10:51] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: So as it related to VWRAP, basically it doesn't except that both aim to make traveling between worlds possible.
*[10:51] [[User: Identity Euler|Identity Euler]]: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Hypergrid
*[10:51] [[User: Identity Euler|Identity Euler]]: ups I was late ㋡
*[10:52] [[User: Vincenzo427 Ferraris|Vincenzo427 Ferraris]]: may i ask, what do u think about SimianGrid?
*[10:52] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: hehe thanks anyhow id :)
*[10:52] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: hypergrid was originally like a peer to peer thing between OpenSim regions. Now it's becoming more ar a protocol between grids
*[10:52] [[User: Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]: Pretty much, Fleep - Hypergrid was pre VWRAP and has presumably been mostly ignoring VWRAP until it progresses farther, but I'd be surprised if there weren't a merge later, assuming VWRAP survives in some form.
*[10:52] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: I thought someone was pushin for hypergrid to be part of the optional VWRAP protocols
*[10:53] [[User: Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]: SimianGrid looks very nice, a bit webbish, forward looking, VWRAP friendly, unfortunately Hurli doesn't communicate well.
*[10:53] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: there was no VWRAP when Hypergrid was first developed
*[10:54] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: Ahh ok that makes sense
*[10:54] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: maybe I'm confusing it with the Simian work he's doing
*[10:54] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: It was somewhat confusing why the two seem to be completely separate efforts
*[10:55] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: SimianGrid is more or less Hurli's interpretation of VWRAP
*[10:55] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: Right there was a helpful page at http://code.google.com/p/openmetaverse/wiki/SimianGrid
*[10:55] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: on simian grid
*[10:57] [[User: Vincenzo427 Ferraris|Vincenzo427 Ferraris]]: i see ty
*[10:59] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: k, thats done
*[11:00] [[User: Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: so much for fb http://news.slashdot.org/story/10/07/13/146207/Man-Claims-84-of-Facebook-Gets-Order-Blocking-Assets?from=twitter
*[11:00] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: time 4 me 2g2 andrew's oh
*[11:01] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: tc everybody
*[11:01] [[User: Identity Euler|Identity Euler]]: see you soon ㋡
*[11:01] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: bye :)
*[11:01] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: sime to poke Simon
*[11:01] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: also pokes Philip just now with it
*[11:01] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: I should go too, bye all :)
*[11:01] [[User: Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: bye bye all
*[11:02] [[User: Fleep Tuque|Fleep Tuque]]: Yep, thanks all for the info on hypergrid, much appreciated. :) wave!
*[11:02] [[User: Vincenzo427 Ferraris|Vincenzo427 Ferraris]]: ty for all
*[11:07] [[User: Vincenzo427 Ferraris|Vincenzo427 Ferraris]]: sorry
*[11:15] [[User: Tammy Nowotny|Tammy Nowotny]]: hello!
*[11:37] [[User: Tammy Nowotny|Tammy Nowotny]]: I have to log off & play RL
*[11:37] [[User: Tammy Nowotny|Tammy Nowotny]]: great to see all of you!
*[11:38] [[User: Tammy Nowotny|Tammy Nowotny]]: ciao
*[11:42] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: What I hate about RL is the level grinding.

[[Category:Grid_Interoperability_Chat_Logs]]
[[Category:AW_Groupies_Transcripts]]
[[Category:MMOX]]

AW Groupies

2010-04-03T21:11:49Z

Saijanai Kuhn: /* External Resources */

=Purpose=
Serious technical discussion about Linden Lab's [[Architecture Working Group|Architecture Working Group (AWG)]]. "AW Groupies" is an unofficial, Resident-operated group, though most (all?) members also participate in the AWG.

Invite only (apply in-world to [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]), but the criterion is simple. Show up and contribute to the AWG, at [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]'s office hours, or on the Wiki, or on SL-Dev or in the [irc://irc.freenode.net/#pyogp irc channel] for the [[Pyogp/Client_Lib|Python test client]].

=Activities=
The [[AW_Groupies#Architecture_Working_Group_meetings|main AWG meeting]] is held annually or semi-annually.
We now [[AW_Groupies#In-World_Meetings|meet up to 8 times a week in-world]], counting AW Groupies meeting, Zero's office hours, Which's office hours, Enus's office hours, Whump's office hours and the [[Pyogp#In_World_Meetings|pygop daily meetings]].

Our main focus these days is on the [[Open Grid Protocol]], the [[Open_Grid_Public_Beta]] and the [[Pyogp|pyogp Python test harness]] for protocol testing.

Also members are quite active on the wiki and in the SLDEV mailing list.

A public SVN repository is open to all AW Groupies members here:
* http://openmv.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/archwg/

Contact anyone with root on openmv.org for an account if you are in the AW Groupies group in-world.

==Architecture Working Group meetings==
* [[AWG_Meeting_1|AWG I annual meeting transcript, participants' responses, etc]]
* [[AWG_Meeting_2|AWG II annual meeting transcript, video, participants' responses, etc]]

==In-World Meetings==
===AW Groupies meeting===
Weekly meeting times are:
* '''Mondays''' -------

* '''Tuesdays''' ------ 9:30 AM SLT at [http://slurl.com/secondlife/ThorneBridgeTown/156/129/25 Zha's IBM Island at ThorneBridgeTown] (weekly AWG meeting)
* ------------------ FIRST TUESDAY of the month ONLY: 1 PM SLT at [http://slurl.com/secondlife/Grasmere/171/112/27 Zero Linden's office hours at Grasmere]
* ------------------ Noon SLT [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies#OpenSim__meeting| Open Sim Meeting]

* '''Wednesdays''' -- Suspended until further notice: 1:30 PM SLT @ [http://slurl.com/secondlife/ambleside/228/244/25/?title=Whump%20Linden%27s%20Office Whump Linden's Office Hours] (main meeting for public grid open beta)

* '''Thursdays''' ----- 11 AM SLT at [http://slurl.com/secondlife/Beaumont/149/44/24 Which Linden's office hours at Beaumont] (often AWG-related these days)
* '''Fridays''' --------- 1 PM SLT [http://slurl.com/secondlife/Longfellow/99/97/28 Enus Linden's Office Hours] (starring PyOGP and [[Pyogp#Pic_of_the_Moment|a cast of several bots]])
:
Meetings are scheduled via the "[http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com SL AW Groupies" google calendar]" (though the above schedule is generally more accurate).

* [http://www.google.com/calendar/feeds/pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic XML]
* [http://www.google.com/calendar/ical/pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics ICal]
* Calendar ID: pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4@group.calendar.google.com
* [http://www.google.com/calendar/render?cid=pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com Add to your Google Calendar]

====Meeting Agendas====

Each meeting should have an agenda --- which will be distributed via
* google calendar entry
* in-world notice to the SL "AW Groupies" group
* the [[AW Groupies In-World Meeting Agenda]] wiki page

===OpenSim meeting===
* Tuesdays/Saturdays noon SLT, at Wright Plaza sim in OSGrid. [http://osgrid.org/index.php?page=home&btn=1 Registration Page]

Set [[Client_parameters|client command line options]] to:
:-loginuri http://osgrid.org:8002
:-loginpage http://osgrid.org/loginscreen.php
:-helperuri http://osgrid.org/

===Chat Logs===

Chat logs of the in-world meetings are published and accessible via the links below:

====2007 meetings====
:* September: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/2007-09-28 | 28]]
:* October: [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-01 | 1]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-05 | 5]] [[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2007_Oct_09|9 --Zero's office]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-16| 16]]
:* November: [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-06 | 6]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-13 | 13]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-20| 20]]
====2008 meetings====
:* January: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-01-08|08]]
:*February: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-02-19|19]]
:*April: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-08|08]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-22|22]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-29|29]]
:*May: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-05-20|20]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-05-27|27]]
:*June: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-03|03]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-10|10]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-17|17]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-24|24]]
:*July: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-01|01]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-08| 08]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-15|15]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-22|22]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-29|29]]
:*August: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-05|05]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-12|12]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-19|19]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-26|26]]
:* September [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-09|9]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-16|16]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-23|23]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-30|30]]
:* October [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-07|7]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-14|14]] [[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_October_14|14 --Zero's O.H.]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-28|28]]
:* November [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-11-11|11]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-11-18|18]]
:* December [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-09|9]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-16|16]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-23|23]]
====2009 meetings====
:*January [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-06|6]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-13|13]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-20|20]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-27|27]]
:*February [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-03|3]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-10|10]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-17|17]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-24|24]]
:*March [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-03-03|3]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-03-10|10]]
:*April [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-07|7]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-14|14]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-28|28]]
:*June [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-06-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-06-16|16]]
:*July [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-07-21|21]]
:*September [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-09-15|15]]
:*October [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-10-20|20]]
====2010 meetings====
:*March [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-03-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-03-09|9]]

*
* [[MMOX#Chat_logs|MMOX chat logs]] -- in-world transcripts with non-SL/Opensim participants
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Grid_Interoperability_Chat_Logs All Grid Interoperability chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:AW_Groupies_Transcripts All AW Groupies chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Pyogp_Transcripts All Pyogp chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Open_Grid_Public_Beta_Transcripts All Open Grid Public Beta Transcripts]
*
* [[User:Zero_Linden#Transcripts_of_previous_office_hours|Zero Linden's Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Which_Linden|Which Linden's Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Enus_Linden| Enus Linden Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Whump_Linden| Whump Linden Office Hour Transcripts]]
*
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=chat+log OpenSim chat logs]
* [[Mono/2008-04-04 | mono beta meeting discussion of het-grid]]

(if you post chat logs, you might want to use the [[User:Dr_Scofield/logtransform|sllog2wiki perl script]] to turn them into a more readable wiki table format ready to copy & paste into the chat log page)

Chat logs of AWGroupies meetings should be summarized on the wiki.

==Viewpoint Advocacy Groups==

[[Viewpoint Advocacy Groups]] - groups to focus on specific requirements.
=== AWG-specific VAGs===

* [[Core Grid Services, Protocols, and Structures VAG]]
* [[Event Scalability VAG]]
* [[Geometry and Physics VAG]]
* [[Live Performances VAG]]
* [[Quality Assurance VAG]]
* [[Scalability VAG]]
=== AWG-related VAGs===
* [[Map_API_VAG]]
* [[Multi-Process Client VAG -- draft]]

=Work-In-Progress=

Work-in-progress wiki pages are architecture pages that are (as the name implies ;-)) work in progress. Once the group has reached consensus that a particular topic is "good-to-go" we'll graduate that page to the [[Architecture Working Group|main AWG page]].

==General Concerns==
* [[Scoping]]
* [[Architecture Working Group Glossary|Glossary]]
* [[Use Cases]]
===Open Grid Protocol (OGP)===
====Linden Pages====

====User Pages====

==Communications==
* [[Initial CAPS seed]]
* [[AWG initial flows]]
* [[AWG flows login]]

* [[Mudata]]
* [[Streamlet]]
===Documenting current protocols===
* [[Pyogp|Python test harness for OGP]]
** [[User:Which_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_May_22| Which Linden office hours 22 May 2008]]
====AWG and citizen pages====
* [[Current_login_protocols]]
* [[Current_Sim_Capabilities]]
* [[Example_protocol_code]]
* [[Hegemons_Login_Analysis#Very_simple_C.23__server]]
* [[User:Gareth_Ellison/Supergrid|Litesim grid interop]]
* [[EventQueueGet_CAP| Event Queue Get CAP]]

====Linden Lab pages====
* [[Service_Disruptions|"Satellite's Eye" view of the Second Life architecture from a service disruption POV]]
* [[Message_System_and_Capabilities]]
* [[Viewer_Authentication]]
* [[Viewer_Architecture]]
* [[Protocol]]
* [[LLSD]]
* [[Certified_HTTP_Escrow]]
* [[ImprovedInstantMessage]]
* [[Client_parameters|client command line parameters and stuff]]

====libsecondlife reference pages====
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Login Login page]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Protocol_%28network%29 Protocol page]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Category:Packets packets index]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Movement Movement]

====opensim reference pages====
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Grid_Architecture_Diagram opensim grid architecture diagram]
* [http://opensimulator.org/images/3/3c/OGS1Login_Sequence.jpg login diagram (same general sequence as current LL login)]

=== Future Protocols===
* [[Second_Life_Login_API_Strawman]]
:deprecated in favor of:
* [[Open Grid Protocol]]
** [[SLGOGP_Teleport_Strawman]]
*[[Architecture_Working_Group#Design_Documents | Ongoing next generation protocols documentation effort by Linden Lab]]

=== Possible future directions ===
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenID| OpenID A decentralized single sign-on system]
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yadis| Yardis A digital identity protocol]

==Asset Security and Trust==
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Dale_Innis/Asset_handling_in_OGP Asset Handling in OGP]
* [[Protecting content in an open grid]]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Infinity_Linden/OGP_Trust_Model OGP Trust Model]

==Scaling Issues==
* [[Brainstorming#ANALYSIS:_Region_Subdivision_as_a_scaling_method| Region Subdivision]]
* [[Brainstorming#ANALYSIS:_Scalability_through_reverse_proxies:_the_paravirtual_grid| Reverse Proxies]]
* [[AWG Scalability through per-resident subdivision of the Grid| Resident Subdivision]]
===Group IM===
* [[Message_Queue_Evaluation_Notes| Which Linden's message queue evaluation notes]]

==Other==
* [[Use_Cases#Extended_Capability_Clients|Extended Capability Clients]]

=Thinking-in-Progress=

* Have a look and contribute to the [[Brainstorming|brainstorming]] page.

* It's early days on the [[Multi-Process Client VAG -- draft]], but we would highly appreciate input to help with design choices and direction.
==Misc User Pages==
* Have an AWG idea? Don't know where in the wiki it should be indexed? Make sure that folks can find it by adding it to the [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:AW_Groupies_User_Pages AW_Groupies_User_Pages] Add: <nowiki>'[[Category:AW Groupies User Pages]]'</nowiki> to the end of your user page.

=External Resources=

Stuff of interest to or in connection with the [[AW Groupies]] or the [[Architecture Working Group]]:

* [[Developer_communication_tools|Developer Communication Tools (Linden Lab)]]
* [[SLDev|SLDev Main Page]]
* [[Open_Grid_Public_Beta]]
* [[Pyogp]] {Linden Labs/ AWG Python-based protocols testing library)
*
* [http://openmv.org/ OpenMetaverse Home]
**[http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Main_Page libsecondlife (libsl) homepage]
**[http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page opensim homepage]
**[http://openviewer.org openviewer homepage]
**[http://code.google.com/p/openmetaverse/wiki/SimianGrid SimianGrid]
*[http://www.osgrid.org OSGrid: open/non-profit OpenSim based grid]
* [http://www.realxtend.org/ realxtend homepage]
*
* [http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/22428.wss IBM PR re: AWG]

Latha's quick list of interop relevant VW sites, 3/30/2010
* http://tools.ietf.org/wg/vwrap/
* http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page
* http://openwonderland.org/
* http://www.realxtend.org/
* http://code.google.com/p/openmetaverse/wiki/SimianGrid
* http://www.opencobalt.org/
* http://www.solipsis.org/
* http://www.web3d.org/

==Second Life Viewers==
Various viewers compatible with Second Life.

::*Note: the "Derived 3rd-party clients" page includes a few non GPL viewers plus some hybrids. I'll try to come up with a better way to index this stuff. [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]
::*Yeah, that redirect of "Alternate_viewers" to "Downloads" is nuts, and the "Downloads" page itself seems to have to have a variety of things bundled together --- it needs splitting. But don't split it by license, that's precisely what I sought to eliminate in this section's re-org. It makes no sense to classify clients by license, since GPL'd clients don't necessarily have anything to do with Linden's code, just like BSD clients don't necessarily have anything to do with libomv. It does make sense to keep a list of Linden-derived clients though, since they're all more alike than not alike, and share both code and license encumbrance. [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]] 01:28, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

===Viewers based on the Linden Lab GPL code (C++)===

*[http://secondlife.com/support/downloads.php Main Second Life viewer/client]
:The main (official) Second Life viewer, produced by Linden Lab with the help of patches submitted by the community, and available for Linux, Mac and Windows.

*[[Snowglobe|Snowglobe]]

:A new version of the Second Life client in a public repository where Linden Lab permits direct committing from select community members alongside daily Linden work. There is also a new build system to keep this version continuously building when new submissions are received, with new builds available to everyone. This version will become available as an alternative Linden download alongside the main SL client, once it is sufficiently stable.

*[[Alternate_viewers|Derived 3rd-party clients]] (''currently links to a mixed "Downloads" page, to be fixed'')
:A large list of clients (not necessarily 3D) developed in the free and open-source community using GPL code from the above two official viewers.

===Viewers based on the libomv/libsl code (C#)===

* [http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/idealistviewer/ Idealist]
:IdealistViewer is a new cross-platform viewer based on the Irrlicht engine, PrimMesher, and LibOpenmetaverse. It can either use the Second Life protocols as provided by LibOpenmetaverse or the MXP protocol. Since it uses the Irrlicht engine it can simultaneously display prim/sculptie content and objects and animated meshes/avatars from a wide variety of sources such as Collada, .OBJ, DirectX, and Blitz3D files. It is not derived from the LL GPL viewer and is made available under BSD style licensing. It is designed to work with OpenSimulator but may also work with Second Life. It is written in the C# language.

* [http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/lookingglass/ LookingGlass]
:LookingGlass viewer is a modular viewer with pluggable communication and rendering engines. Initial communication plugin uses LibOpenMetaverse and the initial rendering plugin uses PrimMesher and Ogre. It is written in C# and BSD licensed. Home site at http://lookingglassviewer.org/ .

===Viewers based on other libraries (python, C, etc)===

* [[Pyogp]]
: Pyogp is an open source project between Linden Lab and the Architecture Working Group (AWG) to support testing the (Open Grid Protocol (OGP). Written in Python, Pyogp will consist initially of a client library and test functionality to enable testing OGP-enabled virtual worlds such as Second Life and compatible OpenSim implementations. These components will expand as the effort matures. Pyogp is released under the Apache v2 license.

==Mailing Lists==
* [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo List of Linden Lab mailing lists]
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sldev SLDEV] Main mailing list for SL developers
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gridnauts gridnauts] Mailing list for participants in Open Grid Public Beta
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pyogp PyOGP] Mailing List for Python-based client library and test harness for the Open Grid Protocols
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Resources#Mailing_Lists libsecondlife]
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page opensim]
* [http://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/openviewer-dev openviewer]

==IRC==
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#opensl
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#opensl-jira (real time updates of entries to jira.secondlife.com)
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#opensl-svn (updates of the the public SVN)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#opensim * irc://irc.freenode.net/#opensim-dev
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#libomv * irc://irc.efnet.net/#libomv-dev
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#openviewer * irc://irc.freenode.net/#openviewer-dev
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#realxtend (Finnish language but can handle English if needed)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#pyogp (Python test harness/pyogp Second LIfe library irc)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#gridnauts (Open Grid Public Beta irc)

==Forums==
* [http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend| realXtend google forum]

==Capabilities==

* [http://www.cap-lore.com/CapTheory/index.html Capabilities theory and practice]
* [http://wiki.erights.org/wiki/Zooko%27s_triangle Zook's Triangle index] -- short list of interesting articles about naming and capabilties
* [http://www.cs.washington.edu/homes/levy/capabook/ Capability-based Systems by Henry Levy] --online copy of 1984 book on early implementations of capabilities systems
* [http://www.erights.org/ E language home] [https://www.cypherpunks.to/erights/ E language home mirror] [http://wiki.erights.org/ E wiki] --computer language dedicated to handling distributed trust issues
** [https://www.cypherpunks.to/erights/elib/capability/index.html Capability Computation]
** irc://irc.freenode.net/#erights
** [http://www.eros-os.org/mailman/listinfo/e-lang E language mailing list]
* [http://www.eros-os.org/mailman/listinfo/cap-talk mailing list for capability systems]
* [http://mscheffler.wordpress.com/2008/01/20/diploma/ blog and thesis on caps in virtual worlds Martin Scheffler]
* [http://homepage.mac.com/kpreid/elang/den.html Cap-based MUD by Kevin Reid] --written in E
* [http://www.fudco.com/chip/lessons.html discussion of ancient (Commodore 64!) video game that used capabilities]

==Misc==

* [http://blog.signpostmarv.name/2008/07/29/non-unique-region-names-within-the-confines-of-a-single-grid-yay-or-nay/ non-unique region names within the confines of a single grid, yay or nay ?]
* [http://blog.signpostmarv.name/2008/01/04/map-api-in-new-location/ discussion of new Map API and related issues]
* [http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source Open Source Portal] --index to all things Open Source for Linden Lab

=Members=

Founder [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]

[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]

[[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]

[[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]

[[User:Dr Scofield|Dr Scofield]]

[[User:Burhop Piccard|Burhop Piccard]]

[[User:Vicero Lambert|Vicero Lambert]]

[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]

[[User:Silicon Plunkett|Silicon Plunkett]]

[[User:Dale Innis|Dale Innis]]

[[Category:Architecture Working Group]]
[[Category:Grid_Interoperability]]
[[Category:AW Groupies]]
[[Category:MMOX]]

AW Groupies

2010-03-09T23:24:28Z

Saijanai Kuhn: /* 2010 meetings */

=Purpose=
Serious technical discussion about Linden Lab's [[Architecture Working Group|Architecture Working Group (AWG)]]. "AW Groupies" is an unofficial, Resident-operated group, though most (all?) members also participate in the AWG.

Invite only (apply in-world to [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]), but the criterion is simple. Show up and contribute to the AWG, at [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]'s office hours, or on the Wiki, or on SL-Dev or in the [irc://irc.freenode.net/#pyogp irc channel] for the [[Pyogp/Client_Lib|Python test client]].

=Activities=
The [[AW_Groupies#Architecture_Working_Group_meetings|main AWG meeting]] is held annually or semi-annually.
We now [[AW_Groupies#In-World_Meetings|meet up to 8 times a week in-world]], counting AW Groupies meeting, Zero's office hours, Which's office hours, Enus's office hours, Whump's office hours and the [[Pyogp#In_World_Meetings|pygop daily meetings]].

Our main focus these days is on the [[Open Grid Protocol]], the [[Open_Grid_Public_Beta]] and the [[Pyogp|pyogp Python test harness]] for protocol testing.

Also members are quite active on the wiki and in the SLDEV mailing list.

A public SVN repository is open to all AW Groupies members here:
* http://openmv.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/archwg/

Contact anyone with root on openmv.org for an account if you are in the AW Groupies group in-world.

==Architecture Working Group meetings==
* [[AWG_Meeting_1|AWG I annual meeting transcript, participants' responses, etc]]
* [[AWG_Meeting_2|AWG II annual meeting transcript, video, participants' responses, etc]]

==In-World Meetings==
===AW Groupies meeting===
Weekly meeting times are:
* '''Mondays''' -------

* '''Tuesdays''' ------ 9:30 AM SLT at [http://slurl.com/secondlife/ThorneBridgeTown/156/129/25 Zha's IBM Island at ThorneBridgeTown] (weekly AWG meeting)
* ------------------ FIRST TUESDAY of the month ONLY: 1 PM SLT at [http://slurl.com/secondlife/Grasmere/171/112/27 Zero Linden's office hours at Grasmere]
* ------------------ Noon SLT [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies#OpenSim__meeting| Open Sim Meeting]

* '''Wednesdays''' -- Suspended until further notice: 1:30 PM SLT @ [http://slurl.com/secondlife/ambleside/228/244/25/?title=Whump%20Linden%27s%20Office Whump Linden's Office Hours] (main meeting for public grid open beta)

* '''Thursdays''' ----- 11 AM SLT at [http://slurl.com/secondlife/Beaumont/149/44/24 Which Linden's office hours at Beaumont] (often AWG-related these days)
* '''Fridays''' --------- 1 PM SLT [http://slurl.com/secondlife/Longfellow/99/97/28 Enus Linden's Office Hours] (starring PyOGP and [[Pyogp#Pic_of_the_Moment|a cast of several bots]])
:
Meetings are scheduled via the "[http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com SL AW Groupies" google calendar]" (though the above schedule is generally more accurate).

* [http://www.google.com/calendar/feeds/pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic XML]
* [http://www.google.com/calendar/ical/pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics ICal]
* Calendar ID: pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4@group.calendar.google.com
* [http://www.google.com/calendar/render?cid=pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com Add to your Google Calendar]

====Meeting Agendas====

Each meeting should have an agenda --- which will be distributed via
* google calendar entry
* in-world notice to the SL "AW Groupies" group
* the [[AW Groupies In-World Meeting Agenda]] wiki page

===OpenSim meeting===
* Tuesdays/Saturdays noon SLT, at Wright Plaza sim in OSGrid. [http://osgrid.org/index.php?page=home&btn=1 Registration Page]

Set [[Client_parameters|client command line options]] to:
:-loginuri http://osgrid.org:8002
:-loginpage http://osgrid.org/loginscreen.php
:-helperuri http://osgrid.org/

===Chat Logs===

Chat logs of the in-world meetings are published and accessible via the links below:

====2007 meetings====
:* September: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/2007-09-28 | 28]]
:* October: [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-01 | 1]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-05 | 5]] [[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2007_Oct_09|9 --Zero's office]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-16| 16]]
:* November: [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-06 | 6]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-13 | 13]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-20| 20]]
====2008 meetings====
:* January: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-01-08|08]]
:*February: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-02-19|19]]
:*April: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-08|08]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-22|22]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-29|29]]
:*May: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-05-20|20]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-05-27|27]]
:*June: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-03|03]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-10|10]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-17|17]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-24|24]]
:*July: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-01|01]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-08| 08]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-15|15]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-22|22]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-29|29]]
:*August: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-05|05]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-12|12]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-19|19]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-26|26]]
:* September [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-09|9]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-16|16]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-23|23]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-30|30]]
:* October [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-07|7]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-14|14]] [[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_October_14|14 --Zero's O.H.]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-28|28]]
:* November [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-11-11|11]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-11-18|18]]
:* December [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-09|9]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-16|16]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-23|23]]
====2009 meetings====
:*January [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-06|6]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-13|13]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-20|20]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-27|27]]
:*February [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-03|3]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-10|10]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-17|17]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-24|24]]
:*March [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-03-03|3]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-03-10|10]]
:*April [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-07|7]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-14|14]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-28|28]]
:*June [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-06-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-06-16|16]]
:*July [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-07-21|21]]
:*September [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-09-15|15]]
:*October [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-10-20|20]]
====2010 meetings====
:*March [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-03-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-03-09|9]]

*
* [[MMOX#Chat_logs|MMOX chat logs]] -- in-world transcripts with non-SL/Opensim participants
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Grid_Interoperability_Chat_Logs All Grid Interoperability chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:AW_Groupies_Transcripts All AW Groupies chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Pyogp_Transcripts All Pyogp chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Open_Grid_Public_Beta_Transcripts All Open Grid Public Beta Transcripts]
*
* [[User:Zero_Linden#Transcripts_of_previous_office_hours|Zero Linden's Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Which_Linden|Which Linden's Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Enus_Linden| Enus Linden Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Whump_Linden| Whump Linden Office Hour Transcripts]]
*
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=chat+log OpenSim chat logs]
* [[Mono/2008-04-04 | mono beta meeting discussion of het-grid]]

(if you post chat logs, you might want to use the [[User:Dr_Scofield/logtransform|sllog2wiki perl script]] to turn them into a more readable wiki table format ready to copy & paste into the chat log page)

Chat logs of AWGroupies meetings should be summarized on the wiki.

==Viewpoint Advocacy Groups==

[[Viewpoint Advocacy Groups]] - groups to focus on specific requirements.
=== AWG-specific VAGs===

* [[Core Grid Services, Protocols, and Structures VAG]]
* [[Event Scalability VAG]]
* [[Geometry and Physics VAG]]
* [[Live Performances VAG]]
* [[Quality Assurance VAG]]
* [[Scalability VAG]]
=== AWG-related VAGs===
* [[Map_API_VAG]]
* [[Multi-Process Client VAG -- draft]]

=Work-In-Progress=

Work-in-progress wiki pages are architecture pages that are (as the name implies ;-)) work in progress. Once the group has reached consensus that a particular topic is "good-to-go" we'll graduate that page to the [[Architecture Working Group|main AWG page]].

==General Concerns==
* [[Scoping]]
* [[Architecture Working Group Glossary|Glossary]]
* [[Use Cases]]
===Open Grid Protocol (OGP)===
====Linden Pages====

====User Pages====

==Communications==
* [[Initial CAPS seed]]
* [[AWG initial flows]]
* [[AWG flows login]]

* [[Mudata]]
* [[Streamlet]]
===Documenting current protocols===
* [[Pyogp|Python test harness for OGP]]
** [[User:Which_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_May_22| Which Linden office hours 22 May 2008]]
====AWG and citizen pages====
* [[Current_login_protocols]]
* [[Current_Sim_Capabilities]]
* [[Example_protocol_code]]
* [[Hegemons_Login_Analysis#Very_simple_C.23__server]]
* [[User:Gareth_Ellison/Supergrid|Litesim grid interop]]
* [[EventQueueGet_CAP| Event Queue Get CAP]]

====Linden Lab pages====
* [[Service_Disruptions|"Satellite's Eye" view of the Second Life architecture from a service disruption POV]]
* [[Message_System_and_Capabilities]]
* [[Viewer_Authentication]]
* [[Viewer_Architecture]]
* [[Protocol]]
* [[LLSD]]
* [[Certified_HTTP_Escrow]]
* [[ImprovedInstantMessage]]
* [[Client_parameters|client command line parameters and stuff]]

====libsecondlife reference pages====
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Login Login page]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Protocol_%28network%29 Protocol page]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Category:Packets packets index]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Movement Movement]

====opensim reference pages====
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Grid_Architecture_Diagram opensim grid architecture diagram]
* [http://opensimulator.org/images/3/3c/OGS1Login_Sequence.jpg login diagram (same general sequence as current LL login)]

=== Future Protocols===
* [[Second_Life_Login_API_Strawman]]
:deprecated in favor of:
* [[Open Grid Protocol]]
** [[SLGOGP_Teleport_Strawman]]
*[[Architecture_Working_Group#Design_Documents | Ongoing next generation protocols documentation effort by Linden Lab]]

=== Possible future directions ===
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenID| OpenID A decentralized single sign-on system]
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yadis| Yardis A digital identity protocol]

==Asset Security and Trust==
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Dale_Innis/Asset_handling_in_OGP Asset Handling in OGP]
* [[Protecting content in an open grid]]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Infinity_Linden/OGP_Trust_Model OGP Trust Model]

==Scaling Issues==
* [[Brainstorming#ANALYSIS:_Region_Subdivision_as_a_scaling_method| Region Subdivision]]
* [[Brainstorming#ANALYSIS:_Scalability_through_reverse_proxies:_the_paravirtual_grid| Reverse Proxies]]
* [[AWG Scalability through per-resident subdivision of the Grid| Resident Subdivision]]
===Group IM===
* [[Message_Queue_Evaluation_Notes| Which Linden's message queue evaluation notes]]

==Other==
* [[Use_Cases#Extended_Capability_Clients|Extended Capability Clients]]

=Thinking-in-Progress=

* Have a look and contribute to the [[Brainstorming|brainstorming]] page.

* It's early days on the [[Multi-Process Client VAG -- draft]], but we would highly appreciate input to help with design choices and direction.
==Misc User Pages==
* Have an AWG idea? Don't know where in the wiki it should be indexed? Make sure that folks can find it by adding it to the [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:AW_Groupies_User_Pages AW_Groupies_User_Pages] Add: <nowiki>'[[Category:AW Groupies User Pages]]'</nowiki> to the end of your user page.

=External Resources=

Stuff of interest to or in connection with the [[AW Groupies]] or the [[Architecture Working Group]]:

* [[Developer_communication_tools|Developer Communication Tools (Linden Lab)]]
* [[SLDev|SLDev Main Page]]
* [[Open_Grid_Public_Beta]]
* [[Pyogp]] {Linden Labs/ AWG Python-based protocols testing library)
*
* [http://openmv.org/ OpenMetaverse Home]
**[http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Main_Page libsecondlife (libsl) homepage]
**[http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page opensim homepage]
**[http://openviewer.org openviewer homepage]
*[http://www.osgrid.org OSGrid: open/non-profit OpenSim based grid]
* [http://www.realxtend.org/ realxtend homepage]
*
* [http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/22428.wss IBM PR re: AWG]

==Second Life Viewers==
Various viewers compatible with Second Life.

::*Note: the "Derived 3rd-party clients" page includes a few non GPL viewers plus some hybrids. I'll try to come up with a better way to index this stuff. [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]
::*Yeah, that redirect of "Alternate_viewers" to "Downloads" is nuts, and the "Downloads" page itself seems to have to have a variety of things bundled together --- it needs splitting. But don't split it by license, that's precisely what I sought to eliminate in this section's re-org. It makes no sense to classify clients by license, since GPL'd clients don't necessarily have anything to do with Linden's code, just like BSD clients don't necessarily have anything to do with libomv. It does make sense to keep a list of Linden-derived clients though, since they're all more alike than not alike, and share both code and license encumbrance. [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]] 01:28, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

===Viewers based on the Linden Lab GPL code (C++)===

*[http://secondlife.com/support/downloads.php Main Second Life viewer/client]
:The main (official) Second Life viewer, produced by Linden Lab with the help of patches submitted by the community, and available for Linux, Mac and Windows.

*[[Snowglobe|Snowglobe]]

:A new version of the Second Life client in a public repository where Linden Lab permits direct committing from select community members alongside daily Linden work. There is also a new build system to keep this version continuously building when new submissions are received, with new builds available to everyone. This version will become available as an alternative Linden download alongside the main SL client, once it is sufficiently stable.

*[[Alternate_viewers|Derived 3rd-party clients]] (''currently links to a mixed "Downloads" page, to be fixed'')
:A large list of clients (not necessarily 3D) developed in the free and open-source community using GPL code from the above two official viewers.

===Viewers based on the libomv/libsl code (C#)===

* [http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/idealistviewer/ Idealist]
:IdealistViewer is a new cross-platform viewer based on the Irrlicht engine, PrimMesher, and LibOpenmetaverse. It can either use the Second Life protocols as provided by LibOpenmetaverse or the MXP protocol. Since it uses the Irrlicht engine it can simultaneously display prim/sculptie content and objects and animated meshes/avatars from a wide variety of sources such as Collada, .OBJ, DirectX, and Blitz3D files. It is not derived from the LL GPL viewer and is made available under BSD style licensing. It is designed to work with OpenSimulator but may also work with Second Life. It is written in the C# language.

* [http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/lookingglass/ LookingGlass]
:LookingGlass viewer is a modular viewer with pluggable communication and rendering engines. Initial communication plugin uses LibOpenMetaverse and the initial rendering plugin uses PrimMesher and Ogre. It is written in C# and BSD licensed. Home site at http://lookingglassviewer.org/ .

===Viewers based on other libraries (python, C, etc)===

* [[Pyogp]]
: Pyogp is an open source project between Linden Lab and the Architecture Working Group (AWG) to support testing the (Open Grid Protocol (OGP). Written in Python, Pyogp will consist initially of a client library and test functionality to enable testing OGP-enabled virtual worlds such as Second Life and compatible OpenSim implementations. These components will expand as the effort matures. Pyogp is released under the Apache v2 license.

==Mailing Lists==
* [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo List of Linden Lab mailing lists]
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sldev SLDEV] Main mailing list for SL developers
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gridnauts gridnauts] Mailing list for participants in Open Grid Public Beta
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pyogp PyOGP] Mailing List for Python-based client library and test harness for the Open Grid Protocols
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Resources#Mailing_Lists libsecondlife]
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page opensim]
* [http://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/openviewer-dev openviewer]

==IRC==
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#opensl
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#opensl-jira (real time updates of entries to jira.secondlife.com)
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#opensl-svn (updates of the the public SVN)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#opensim * irc://irc.freenode.net/#opensim-dev
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#libomv * irc://irc.efnet.net/#libomv-dev
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#openviewer * irc://irc.freenode.net/#openviewer-dev
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#realxtend (Finnish language but can handle English if needed)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#pyogp (Python test harness/pyogp Second LIfe library irc)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#gridnauts (Open Grid Public Beta irc)

==Forums==
* [http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend| realXtend google forum]

==Capabilities==

* [http://www.cap-lore.com/CapTheory/index.html Capabilities theory and practice]
* [http://wiki.erights.org/wiki/Zooko%27s_triangle Zook's Triangle index] -- short list of interesting articles about naming and capabilties
* [http://www.cs.washington.edu/homes/levy/capabook/ Capability-based Systems by Henry Levy] --online copy of 1984 book on early implementations of capabilities systems
* [http://www.erights.org/ E language home] [https://www.cypherpunks.to/erights/ E language home mirror] [http://wiki.erights.org/ E wiki] --computer language dedicated to handling distributed trust issues
** [https://www.cypherpunks.to/erights/elib/capability/index.html Capability Computation]
** irc://irc.freenode.net/#erights
** [http://www.eros-os.org/mailman/listinfo/e-lang E language mailing list]
* [http://www.eros-os.org/mailman/listinfo/cap-talk mailing list for capability systems]
* [http://mscheffler.wordpress.com/2008/01/20/diploma/ blog and thesis on caps in virtual worlds Martin Scheffler]
* [http://homepage.mac.com/kpreid/elang/den.html Cap-based MUD by Kevin Reid] --written in E
* [http://www.fudco.com/chip/lessons.html discussion of ancient (Commodore 64!) video game that used capabilities]

==Misc==

* [http://blog.signpostmarv.name/2008/07/29/non-unique-region-names-within-the-confines-of-a-single-grid-yay-or-nay/ non-unique region names within the confines of a single grid, yay or nay ?]
* [http://blog.signpostmarv.name/2008/01/04/map-api-in-new-location/ discussion of new Map API and related issues]
* [http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source Open Source Portal] --index to all things Open Source for Linden Lab

=Members=

Founder [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]

[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]

[[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]

[[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]

[[User:Dr Scofield|Dr Scofield]]

[[User:Burhop Piccard|Burhop Piccard]]

[[User:Vicero Lambert|Vicero Lambert]]

[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]

[[User:Silicon Plunkett|Silicon Plunkett]]

[[User:Dale Innis|Dale Innis]]

[[Category:Architecture Working Group]]
[[Category:Grid_Interoperability]]
[[Category:AW Groupies]]
[[Category:MMOX]]

AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2010-03-09

2010-03-09T23:20:32Z

Saijanai Kuhn: Created page with '*[09:20] Chris Tuchs: awg meeting happens here? *[09:20] Ceawlin Steamweaver: Hi Chris! *[09:20] [[User: Ahuva Heliosense|Ahuv...'

*[09:20] [[User: Chris Tuchs|Chris Tuchs]]: awg meeting happens here?
*[09:20] [[User: Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Hi Chris!
*[09:20] [[User: Ahuva Heliosense|Ahuva Heliosense]]: oh dear, lagging like crazy
*[09:21] [[User: Chris Tuchs|Chris Tuchs]]: Hi everybody! I'll be quiet now...
*[09:21] [[User: Ahuva Heliosense|Ahuva Heliosense]]: sorry - Ceawlin - did not mean to step on ou
*[09:21] [[User: Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: My binding is sore nao! XD
*[09:22] Zha Ewry wonders When Ceawlin is going to upgrade to a ipad or nook ave
*[09:22] [[User: Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Lol.
*[09:22] [[User: Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: I can upgrade to a toaster or American McGee's Alice. :3
*[09:22] [[User: Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: The latter might make me go all stabhappy though, and that would just be unpretty. :3
*[09:25] [[User: Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: BluKitty!
*[09:27] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Wow, my air cushion is still here from last week. No return policy, or a very long one, cool. :-))))
*[09:27] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hiya 'Lin :-)
*[09:28] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I am a pretty firm believer in friendly return policy as long as it isn't abused
*[09:29] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Wow, we have a separate David Levine resident here! Did the last name appear in LL's service by accident, or can requests be made?
*[09:29] Sheryl Mimulus is falling asleep
*[09:30] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Levine was a valid last name a year or so back
*[09:30] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Interesting.
*[09:30] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: So, by blind luck the typist got the vanity name for free
*[09:30] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hehe
*[09:31] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: At the moment, I'm watching a very expensive, but not stunningly performign alientware box burni n
*[09:31] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Great post on VWRAP Zha. I +1'ned it.
*[09:32] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Well people touched on bits of that in responde to a couple of posts but it needed a proper diescting
*[09:32] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Useful to have that as a distinct subject header too.
*[09:32] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: And to your comment, the model has to permit informatoin to be discovered, but not be required
*[09:33] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Now, regions may chose to ding you out if you don't provide some
*[09:33] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: but the model shouldn't enforce that, only thier local policy
*[09:33] [[User: XLR8RRICK Hudson|XLR8RRICK Hudson]]: Greetings all
*[09:35] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: It goes beyond that though. "Information not available" (user control in an environment where it is discoverable) is different to "Information not discoverable" (region policy for guaranteeing security of all users).
*[09:36] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I think its managable. The base model I'm thinking of is that you say
*[09:36] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: "Here is where my verifiable metatadata is"
*[09:36] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and you chose what you put there
*[09:36] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: hello everybody
*[09:36] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hi Rex
*[09:36] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and you then live with the consequenes if you don't expose much
*[09:36] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: hi morgaine
*[09:36] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: In what form is "here" expressed?
*[09:36] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: ie. you're not allowed in some places
*[09:36] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: URI
*[09:36] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: ok
*[09:36] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: "Here in web speak is always a URI?"
*[09:37] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Sorry, did not realize you were speaking Webbish
*[09:37] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: <web>I always speak webish in specs </web>
*[09:37] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: maybe u should offer some classes for that language:)
*[09:37] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Zha: it needs to be stronger though, along these lines (if this is the policy chosen by the world operator: User: "Here is my metadata." World|Morgaine Dinova: Zha: it needs to be stronger though, along these lines (if this is the policy chosen by the world operator: User: "Here is my metadata." World]]: "User metadata refused."
*[09:38] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Well, look at it as
*[09:38] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: ".. because missing X , Y, and your mother's maiden name"
*[09:38] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: "This is where you *can* get my metadata"
*[09:38] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: "Nope, not looking"
*[09:38] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Nope, that's too weak.
*[09:38] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: The user gets to chose what they put out there
*[09:38] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: the world gets to chose what they fetch
*[09:39] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: So.. why too weak?
*[09:39] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: It's just like web services being able to not keep logs. It's different to keeping logs but not making them public, very different.
*[09:39] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I'm not this this actually follows that at all
*[09:40] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: As a user, I hand my auth service a stack ot things I am willing to let it publish
*[09:40] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: (And possibly a policy on to whom)
*[09:40] [[User: Eddi Decosta|Eddi Decosta]]: sorry rezing ㋡
*[09:40] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: As a service wanting to decide if I want to admit the user, I get handed a URI
*[09:40] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I fetch against it (with all the joy of making sure its really who it should be)
*[09:41] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and I fetch what I chose
*[09:41] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Wyn! I am not cleaning up horse poop fromt he sim!
*[09:41] [[User: Eddi Decosta|Eddi Decosta]]: hi Saij ㋡
*[09:41] [[User: Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: ao os
*[09:41] [[User: Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: ao on
*[09:41] [[User: Eddi Decosta|Eddi Decosta]]: hi Morgaine ㋡
*[09:41] [[User: Chris Tuchs|Chris Tuchs]]: Are you aware of pseudonyms ala http://www.chaum.com/articles/Security_Wthout_Identification.htm
*[09:42] [[User: Wyn Galbraith|Wyn Galbraith]]: Sorry about that, it was a new gift.
*[09:42] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: It's simple Zha, it boils down to whether a particular data field in the protocol is mandatory or not. If it is then the service cannot refuse to maintain it, and the choice is then on the user whether to supply it or not. The mandatory approach does not give the service the option to not gather that data at all.
*[09:42] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hi Eddi
*[09:42] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: if the totality of the metadata is "here is the URI you use to fetch it"
*[09:42] [[User: Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: man. these benches suck
*[09:43] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: then the service holding the meteadata is in full control of what to expose
*[09:43] [[User: Rex Cronon: why doesn't the service tell the user "if u want connect you have to send the following fields|Rex Cronon: why doesn't the service tell the user "if u want connect you have to send the following fields]]: f1, f2,... fn"?
*[09:43] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: You can rez your own seat here Tapple
*[09:43] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: (and you can always pass a null URI)
*[09:44] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: What are the benches doing to you tapple?
*[09:44] [[User: Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: offset is on the ground rather than at the hip
*[09:45] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: xstorm, we're in chat not voice
*[09:45] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Can't pass a null URI if the field is mandatory --- the service would object because if it needs to maintain compliance with a protocol in which this data is declared mandatory.
*[09:45] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Null URIs are always ok, or a URI to a service which returns no data
*[09:45] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: but, I'm fine with the field being optional
*[09:45] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: "I have no meta data availeble"
*[09:46] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hmmmm
*[09:46] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Of course, you may find a lot of regoins which look dowen thier virtual noses at you
*[09:46] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Regions not to visit then :-)
*[09:46] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: "You sir or madam or whatever, might be a bounder and a cad, so no soup for you'
*[09:46] [[User: xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]: i found a real problem that can happen with viewer 2 but im a little worry to tell any one
*[09:46] [[User: Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: hi chris. Matthew of Open Cobalt here
*[09:47] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: does it give u free L$, xstorm:)
*[09:47] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Cute seat Tapple ;)
*[09:47] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I don't promise it won't get rained on tho
*[09:47] [[User: xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]: no it can leed to a computer remote attack on a persons PC
*[09:48] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: The nomoinal path is to file a security Jira I think
*[09:48] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Enable shared media at your peril
*[09:48] [[User: xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]: but if i do it may make people panic
*[09:48] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: u mean that they can find your IP using shared media and do a DOS on u?
*[09:48] [[User: xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]: yes it is the shaird media'
*[09:48] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I'm looking at the case where the user is not made the "culprit", but where the world explicitly declares its support of privacy by not making it a user option.
*[09:49] [[User: xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]: seem people know
*[09:49] Zha Ewry ponders for a moment
*[09:49] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Well, if a service refuses to fetch the data behind the URI, it's pretty much enforcing that
*[09:50] [[User: Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]: xstorm, http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Security_issues says only you and LL will see an issue in the SEC category
*[09:50] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: you can't stop someone deom shouting out
*[09:50] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: "http://meta.data.org/zha_ewry/meta-data/seedcap" tho
*[09:51] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: What sorts of "metadata" are we talking about here? When I hear metadata I think "A name is a charactaer string not exceeding 32 characters, coded in UTF8"
*[09:51] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: nor can you prevent someone from including metadata into the
*[09:51] [[User: xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]: im not clicking on that lol
*[09:51] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: XML the post to you
*[09:51] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: you can just chose not to read it
*[09:51] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: meta data, as in data "about" the data as opposed to the data
*[09:51] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Which category things such as
*[09:52] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: "age"
*[09:52] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: "RL name matches google's idea of same"
*[09:52] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: That is data, not metadata.
*[09:52] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Metata data is, "there is a property called 'age'"
*[09:52] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: its meta data for the proocl
*[09:52] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Zha|Morgaine Dinova: Zha]]: I think perhaps the approach I'd be looking for is that when a cap to the drilling down metadata is requested, the response if "Cap recognized but not supported in this world". That's different to being returned a valid cap and then discovering there is no use data for a particular person.
*[09:53] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Well, two places
*[09:53] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: One is the region/AD's cap set
*[09:53] [[User: Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]: I agree, Mojito, calling user data "meta" is a little wonky.
*[09:53] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and it can certainly return a cap which always says "No data availabel"
*[09:53] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and the other is the one that servcies us to fetch same
*[09:53] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and again, they have the choice
*[09:53] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I work on RDBMSs. The disinction between the two is quite clear
*[09:54] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Oddly protocol's arent' RDBMs
*[09:54] [[User: xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]: lol and i have been told my bugs i get is called wonky lol
*[09:54] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: At the protocol level
*[09:54] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: we have the data needed to do the task
*[09:54] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: No, it's metadata, not data. Your real identity is only "data" if you're an augmentist and don't separate the virtual personna from the RL identity. RL data is VW metadata.
*[09:54] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and then data which describes more proprties
*[09:55] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: As is "Likes chocolate sauce" nice to know, but not germance to logging you in
*[09:55] [[User: Chris Tuchs: I'll mention again what I think is required reading if you are conteplating some kind of avy credentialling|Chris Tuchs: I'll mention again what I think is required reading if you are conteplating some kind of avy credentialling]]: http://www.chaum.com/articles/Security_Wthout_Identification.htm
*[09:56] [[User: xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]: but every computer has its own ID even if the user can not see it
*[09:56] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Chris|Morgaine Dinova: Chris]]: thanks! David Chaum's work on DigiCash was excellent. Governments hated it because it didn't give them a back door.
*[09:57] [[User: Chris Tuchs|Chris Tuchs]]: very dated article, I expect the state of the art has advanced, but the opportunity for strong credentials without compromising privacy is worth looking into. I'll be quiet again...
*[09:57] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: The heart of the issue, for most of this is two fold
*[09:57] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Seperating out as MUCH of the "Here is Morgaine, wanting to rez"
*[09:58] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: from "Here is a way morgaine has provdied to pay for stuff"
*[09:58] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: from "This is an acutual person"
*[09:58] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: from "Oh, here is how I prove I actually work for IBM"
*[09:58] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: all of which are needs we have
*[09:58] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and 90% of which are "meta"
*[09:58] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: to "Rez me"
*[09:58] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yep
*[09:59] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: The tricky bits are fully separating them out so the protocol requires as little as possible
*[09:59] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: And furthermore, the paying should not be conflated with the RL identification either --- David Chaum's work was very insightful about that.
*[09:59] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: My inclination is to say "Don't pass around the meta-data" Its basically evil
*[09:59] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: zha. anybody that finds your passwords can prove they r u:)
*[09:59] [[User: Chris Tuchs|Chris Tuchs]]: then def. read the article, some clever ways to provide all that, and make "this is chris" able to share "how she pays" with Morgaine cause we are the same RL person, but prevent anyone else from knowing we are. (( actually we aren't as far as I know))
*[10:00] Zha Ewry sniggers
*[10:00] [[User: Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: pseudonyms? blind signatures? never heard of this stuff before
*[10:00] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: If we do this right
*[10:00] [[User: Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]: Mojito and I would prefer you used "extra" rather than "meta", I think, because the extra stuff is not describing the format or interpretation of the required stuff.
*[10:00] [[User: xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]: RL data now days is to free for people to get
*[10:00] [[User: Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: neat
*[10:00] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Chris|Morgaine Dinova: Chris]]: wanna merge? ^_^
*[10:00] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: something like digicash or OpenId, or Oauth slides in neatly
*[10:00] [[User: Chris Tuchs|Chris Tuchs]]: *giggle*
*[10:00] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Morgaine! This is aa "moderate" sim!
*[10:00] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Haha
*[10:00] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: ha. ha:)
*[10:01] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: If you're going to merge and bring in lawyers, I'll haveto have the textures all steam cleaned
*[10:01] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: More seriously, tho
*[10:01] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I think something like digicash *ought* to fit right in
*[10:02] Chris Tuchs needs to read up on the tech used by openid and oauth to see if they are doing it "right". But if they are... use their stuff!
*[10:02] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: It becomes just a "Your proof point is HERE"
*[10:02] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Perhaps the words "extra" and "meta" are both bad. They're both data, but the question is how to avoid the link when unwanted and how to provide it when wanted --- these being fundamentally conflicting requirements in important use cases.
*[10:03] [[User: Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: shibboleth too. shibboleth is to intranets what OpenID is to the internet
*[10:03] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I *think* they get pretty close. The problem with 90% of the auth/ID stuff is that people ground them out in things like Facebook which are icky
*[10:03] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: In terms of that, Morgaine, that's the main reason I lean to a REST style
*[10:04] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: you put the meta-data (extra attributes, special sauce)
*[10:04] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: on a URI
*[10:04] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: make it accesiable via a CAP like or other one shot
*[10:04] [[User: Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: Shibboleth is on the todo list for open cobalt higher than openid
*[10:04] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and you don't force anyone to consume it if they don't want to
*[10:04] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and you leave the control int he holder of the data
*[10:04] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: it adds an extra round trip to the dance
*[10:04] [[User: Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: both are still rather low though
*[10:05] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: You have to fetch off the data rather than getting it handed to you"
*[10:05] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: but
*[10:05] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: It is much better in terms of what you need to secure
*[10:05] [[User: xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]: think of all the data we have in sl and if some one can track down things like we use worldpress or blogs that just adds holes to the system
*[10:05] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: TOCTOU attacks and such
*[10:05] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Here's an idea (not saying I like it, just a wierd thought) --- make RL avatars as discrete entitities, and then link RL and virtual avatars if you want. That puts them both on a par, and allows for simple non-existence of the RL avatar as a means of satisfying the privacy/security/immersionism requirement.
*[10:06] Zha Ewry chcukles
*[10:06] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Then it's all "data" !!
*[10:06] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: But
*[10:06] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I must have *some* of it to rez you in all cases
*[10:06] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and only need other bits of it in *some* cases
*[10:06] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: The MUST/ don't must
*[10:06] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: disctinction is what I care about
*[10:06] [[User: xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]: trace roots and paths can be found in any system if given time
*[10:07] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Don't care if we call it Hamburger and Catchip
*[10:07] [[User: Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]: Chris, I recall some of the existing web auth stuff as making some assumptions like "it's a user authenticating to a service, and it's reasonable to require a manual login from the user once per site per session." Didn't fit with arbitrary hosts authenticating with each other as needed. I hope not all existing schemes have that problem, but I bookmarked it as a potential pitfall.
*[10:07] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: u rezz a blob and say "this is morgaine":)
*[10:07] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Blue blobs rock
*[10:07] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: But, we want to separate out the "This is what I need" and "This is stuff you may want"
*[10:07] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Morgaine hasn't put on *that* much weght. Not all that blobby to me
*[10:07] [[User: Opensource Obscure|Opensource Obscure]]: HELLO
*[10:07] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: hi
*[10:08] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: ok. a skinny one:)
*[10:08] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Heylow Obscure one
*[10:08] [[User: Opensource Obscure|Opensource Obscure]]: (( TODAY IS MY PERSONAL CAPS LOCK DAY ))
*[10:08] [[User: xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]: hi open
*[10:08] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: HI OPENSOURCE :)
*[10:08] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Zha|Morgaine Dinova: Zha]]: fundamental problem though if they are both maintained information. I want the possibility for the service to simply not support the maintenance of that information. Hence the "Cap is recognized but not available on this service" response.
*[10:08] [[User: xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]: lol
*[10:09] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I think that's fine
*[10:09] [[User: Chris Tuchs|Chris Tuchs]]: Latha, good concerns. My info is 15 years out of date though, and can't say one way or another. But I get the feeling that the consensus here is optional "certificates" which maintain user privacy.
*[10:09] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Either you reply that
*[10:09] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: or return a cap which always returns an "service not availabel" error
*[10:09] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I think, in general
*[10:10] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: the pattern of the specs ought to be
*[10:10] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: "You don't have to support every cap in the spec, but stuff may break if you don't"
*[10:10] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Ummm. Dangerous
*[10:10] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: And, if you don't want to support one, you can certainly return a valid, but null
*[10:11] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: It is a little dangerous, but.. in a web world withc lusters of services its always the possible case
*[10:11] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: If you fail horribly becuase one out of 100 services you depend on 404s for a moment due to network issues, you're just as miserable
*[10:11] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: But. It is tricky as to what is expected to work properly
*[10:12] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: thus.. a "All questies return "no such informatoin is available" ismore graceful
*[10:12] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and I'm not miserable is some caps return a "No such servcie here"
*[10:12] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Which isn essence is what happens if you ask for "cap.name.that.I.just.made.up"
*[10:13] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: You know, maybe that "RL avatar" idea isn't so daft. It simplifies this whole area massively.
*[10:13] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: you don't get back a "Oh, here is my best guess as to what you meant"
*[10:13] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: you get back 'No such cap" in some form.
*[10:13] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: sometimes in order to find a good solution u have to build a prototype:)
*[10:13] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: brb, while I ponder what you just said
*[10:13] Morgaine Dinova goes to make coffee
*[10:14] [[User: xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]: data search bot
*[10:14] [[User: xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]: spiders
*[10:14] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: "No such information is available" can also mean "I know, but I am not telling."
*[10:15] [[User: xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]: lol
*[10:15] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: That can block fishing expeditions.
*[10:15] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: or "I know, but I am not telling YOU"
*[10:15] [[User: Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: wireless makes every security hole a mile bigger
*[10:16] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Well, SSL is certainly possible, right?
*[10:16] [[User: Chris Tuchs|Chris Tuchs]]: All comms should be encrypted to prevent eves droppers, imho.
*[10:16] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: u make tunnels:)
*[10:16] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: back
*[10:16] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: wb
*[10:17] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: "I know, but I'm not telllilng, from the outside, pretty much is "I don't know" "
*[10:17] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Unless of course you implement "snarky tween mode"
*[10:17] [[User: Chris Tuchs|Chris Tuchs]]: And unless there is a *need* for later examining the comms, then something like OTR's crypto should be used...
*[10:18] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: "Ha ha, your password is wrong. neener neener neener"
*[10:18] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Mmmmm, nice coffee, if you have any requests, ask now, I'm in a happy mood :P
*[10:18] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Or to observe y tween's friend's "Oh, I KNOW who your BFF is dating, but I am *SO* not going to tell you"
*[10:18] [[User: Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: hmm. doesn't everybody log their IM's anyway?
*[10:19] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: "Your password is wrong in ONE LETTER, but I am not telling you which"
*[10:19] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: But, al ogged IM doesn't prove you said it
*[10:19] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: If you want to "prove" it
*[10:19] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Chris++
*[10:19] Chris Tuchs: [10:18] [[User: Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: Sure, I'll send you the money.
*[10:19] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: you need a third party digitally signed repos
*[10:19] [[User: Chris Tuchs|Chris Tuchs]]: Right, if you want to be able to prove comms need extra/different stuff.
*[10:20] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Been saying that since PGP days. It all breaks apart when 99+% of traffic is in the clear.
*[10:20] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Best to keep up random babbling so the channel is full, let someone use the info that you spoke AT ALL. Hmm, I think some group IMs already do that...
*[10:20] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: *lest
*[10:21] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: << Snort >>
*[10:21] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: So, I think we have pounded this into the mud for the moment
*[10:21] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yep Mojito, bit padding a comms link is standard practive to prevent differential cryptoanalysis from having an easy ride.
*[10:21] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: practice*
*[10:21] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: The best place for cogent comments is in reply to the note on OGPX
*[10:22] [[User: Chris Tuchs|Chris Tuchs]]: I am pretty new here, and pretty clewless. What is OGPX? Feel free to IM and not spam the group...
*[10:22] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ogpx/current/msg00890.html
*[10:22] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: OGPX for historical reasons is the mailing list for VWRAP
*[10:22] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: where VWRAP is the IETF working group that this stuff is aiming at
*[10:23] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Zha|Morgaine Dinova: Zha]]: do you think we might change it some day to vwrap@ list?
*[10:23] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: First step toward interop. Just recognizing each other's login credentials.
*[10:23] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Ask our chairs?
*[10:23] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Hello, chair
*[10:23] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Haha
*[10:23] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I'd kind of like to see it move
*[10:24] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: But at the "gee, Josh, could we" level
*[10:24] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I think there's no huge argument to force it to change, but I'd like it changed just for clarity.
*[10:24] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and not beyond that
*[10:24] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: exactly
*[10:24] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: See, the CCITT did it right. No misleading group names. Just numbers.
*[10:24] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Haha
*[10:24] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/vwrap/trac/wiki
*[10:25] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: http://www.ietf.org/dyn/wg/charter/vwrap-charter.html
*[10:25] [[User: Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: AWG is mostly about interop among different VW platforms, and VWRAP is the vehicle that we're betting on
*[10:25] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: for those whoe want all the pointers
*[10:25] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I remember working on a protocol where we could not agree on the semantics for one entiry. So we agreed to call that identity by a meaningless name so as not to influence thinking in the meantime.
*[10:25] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: *entity
*[10:25] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: hehe
*[10:25] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: That's exactly how I ended up working on a project called quad-X
*[10:26] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Got tired of all the whinging about names
*[10:26] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: so did a global replace to XXXX
*[10:26] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: which is hard to say
*[10:26] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Neatly sidestepps issues like "is this a client or a server?"
*[10:26] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: "Is a blob o code"
*[10:27] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: "You can define it's behavior byt the fact that it exposes these interfaces"
*[10:27] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I don't give a whoot if its a client, a server or a blongleblat
*[10:27] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: followed by UUIDs of interface signatures...
*[10:27] [[User: Wyn Galbraith|Wyn Galbraith]]: If all clients could be servers what would that do?
*[10:27] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Simplify the API
*[10:27] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Funnily enough Mojito, we were having a similar discussion in VWRAP just a few days ago, in which it seemed an artificial distinction was being made between human-driven clients and machine-driven clients.
*[10:27] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Mean we'd deploy IPV6 and shot all the firewall hosters
*[10:28] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Why should the protocol care whether human or machine-driven??
*[10:28] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Ah, the hints of the "user agent" discussion
*[10:28] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: it shouldn't
*[10:28] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: at all
*[10:28] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: It shouldn't.
*[10:28] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: the sim cares
*[10:28] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Client
*[10:28] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: No the sim only should care to the exctent it may ask "Is this a human"
*[10:28] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and it may be told "You don't get to know"
*[10:28] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: And why should IT care?
*[10:29] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: at whic point it may say "You don't get to come here"
*[10:29] [[User: Chris Tuchs|Chris Tuchs]]: Ask the owner of the sim
*[10:29] Mojito Sorbet tries to find XKCD comics about the Turing Test
*[10:29] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: From a protocol perspective
*[10:29] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Haha
*[10:29] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: if the sim know who is bot and who isn't it can optimize things
*[10:29] [[User: xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]: if a User just coming in to SL asks if there account info will be safe from every thing what do we tell them ?
*[10:29] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: a "client" is the code which drives an avatar and an agent
*[10:29] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Whether it is a human behind that (and how directly)
*[10:29] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: is really not interesting
*[10:29] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: If I had a bot, it would be carrying out duties I assign to it.
*[10:30] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Like those land-harvesting bots that swoop in as soon as you mark your parcel for sale.
*[10:30] [[User: Rex Cronon: u tell him|Rex Cronon: u tell him]]: only fools believe that their account is safe from everything
*[10:31] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Rex|Morgaine Dinova: Rex]]: "optimize" also means discriminate. And that discrimination even hits humans, for example disabled using bot technology.
*[10:31] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: (For example, a mobild phone gateway, may be "the client" but it may do a ton of stuff that isn't much like a traditional client
*[10:31] [[User: xstorm Radek|xstorm Radek]]: im getting called away
*[10:31] [[User: Wyn Galbraith|Wyn Galbraith]]: Don't think the land bots are running or I've priced the parcel to high cause land I want harvested is not going.
*[10:31] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Dahlia! You've become angelic! :DDDDD
*[10:31] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: At the prorotocl level
*[10:32] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I'm pefectly happy to see "I am a bot" as "meta-data"
*[10:32] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Yes, you have to set the price at the low end of market to attract them. Once you hit the magic price, one wioll show up in SECONS
*[10:32] [[User: Wyn Galbraith|Wyn Galbraith]]: I'm a bot
*[10:32] [[User: Wyn Galbraith|Wyn Galbraith]]: oh I mean
*[10:32] [[User: Wyn Galbraith|Wyn Galbraith]]: I am a bot.
*[10:32] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and perfectly happy to have that be optional
*[10:33] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: http://xkcd.com/329/
^*[10:33] Dahlia Trimble got a elven theme Linden home and is trying to get into the theme ;)
*[10:33] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Policy of "No bots" or "I help bots" are region chocies
*[10:33] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and chosing to expose
*[10:33] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: is a choice
*[10:33] Morgaine Dinova hands Wyn a grommet in lieu of a cookie :-)
*[10:33] Wyn Galbraith yums. ;P
*[10:34] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Hand wyn some ducttape and see if she stays online longer
*[10:34] [[User: Wyn Galbraith|Wyn Galbraith]]: Thanks :D
*[10:34] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: So, like the "name" discussion
*[10:34] [[User: Wyn Galbraith|Wyn Galbraith]]: I was missed?
*[10:34] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Always, Wyn :-)
*[10:34] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: We should probably look at how we mark "client" and scrub it
*[10:34] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Of course
*[10:35] Wyn Galbraith smiles.
*[10:35] [[User: Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: bye all
*[10:36] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I think you were replaced by a bot while you were away. Like the pod people from "Invasion of the body snatchers"
*[10:36] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Agreed Zha. We're a bit sloppy on nomenclature in VWRAP. Stems from not having a glossary. We started off much better in AWG by defining a glossary, despite LL ignoring us on that.
*[10:36] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Latha got caught in the meme blender
*[10:36] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: so, the server asks "r u a bot" and your client answers "yes" "no" "not telling" then the server replies "only humans are allowed". simple:)
*[10:36] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I'm trying to get us one in the deployment patterns spec
*[10:36] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: tc tapple
*[10:36] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I'm going to push to get most of that rolled into the intro
*[10:36] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: (Note the careful seperation of asset in the latest draft)
*[10:37] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Or make glossary of terms a separate doc.
*[10:37] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: "Simulation, Presentation and meta-data"
*[10:37] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: probably a bit of both
*[10:37] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I HATE the 200 spec approach
*[10:37] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: becuase you spend a lot of effort maintaining
*[10:37] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I'm also about at thep oint where I believe that anyplace in the spec we have a map
*[10:38] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Ouch, "asset". Big troubles there, because tal about "asset service", as if that excluded objects, which obviously it doesn't. Real mess, currently.
*[10:38] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: a URI shoudl be a valid choice
*[10:38] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: ah., not so much when you cleani t all up
*[10:38] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Lost a couple of words, reposting
*[10:38] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Once you split out asse/inventory cleanling
*[10:38] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Ouch, "asset". Big troubles there, because we continually talk about "asset service", as if that excluded objects, which obviously it doesn't. Real mess, currently.
*[10:39] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: then you mostly need to be clear that assets may be blobs which
*[10:39] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: aren't objects assets too?
*[10:39] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Rex|Morgaine Dinova: Rex]]: not in LL parlance
*[10:39] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: What are those htings in my inventory then?
*[10:39] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: contain a 3-tuple of "Presentation data,Siulation data, metat data" and any of those may be null, and any of those may have multiple represenstaions
*[10:40] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: AND..
*[10:40] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: any of them my be a URI you have to fetch to get the actual data
*[10:40] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Mojito|Morgaine Dinova: Mojito]]: good question.
*[10:40] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Conceptually, the inventory is a list of pointers
*[10:40] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: pointers to what?
*[10:40] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: The items don't get downloaded hen you fetch it
*[10:40] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Ahh
*[10:40] [[User: Wyn Galbraith|Wyn Galbraith]]: 30K items in my case
*[10:40] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: That is the questoin, isn't it Mojito
*[10:41] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: 22K in mine
*[10:41] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: pointers to assets, are the not?
*[10:41] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: (I've been a busy little thing cleaning this month)
*[10:41] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Under 7K for me.
*[10:41] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Pointers to assets, or lists of assets, I think (folders)
*[10:41] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: So, there are objects in there. Thos emust be assets too
*[10:41] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: And in all cases you should always epxect a URI at anytime
*[10:41] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: 30000*36=1,080,000
*[10:42] Zha Ewry thinks URIs must not be the spanish inquistion
*[10:42] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: You use up a megabyte just to store the UUIDs of your stuff?
*[10:42] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: The definition of "object" in SL seems to be something wierd like "Entity instantiated from a storage service (trying desperately not to say "asset service") in a region, which is then a non-asset until it's stored away again." Blech.
*[10:42] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: that is close to 1Mb, and still it takes 5 to 15 minutes to download?
*[10:42] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Well, rezzed entity is not formalized in thier world
*[10:43] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Oh, so by "object" they mean only the rezzed version.
*[10:43] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: And if you want to have FUN
*[10:43] [[User: Eddi Decosta|Eddi Decosta]]: well, sorry i need to go! ㋡ see you later!
*[10:43] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: tc eddi
*[10:43] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Cyu Eddi
*[10:43] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: describe what the heck you should hand a region to use when an object is "returned" in a fully distributed grid situatoin
*[10:43] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: tc eddi
*[10:43] [[User: Eddi Decosta|Eddi Decosta]]: thanks, take care ㋡
*[10:44] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: You get to do it at Rez time
*[10:44] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: name, size, description, and URI to its inventory?
*[10:44] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and you have *NO* idea when it might get returned
*[10:44] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Zha|Morgaine Dinova: Zha]]: we're fighting the legacy problem continuously. Makes it hard to introduce any sanity :-(

*[10:45] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: So, if you hand it a URI or a CAP to your asste/inventory problem
*[10:45] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: *service you gte some fun problems
*[10:45] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: No, returning an object it has to go to the inventory of its owner, not yours
*[10:45] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Do you want a long lasting "Here, put anything you want here"
*[10:45] [[User: Wyn Galbraith|Wyn Galbraith]]: cycles wash
*[10:45] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: cap
*[10:45] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: right
*[10:45] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: at rez time
*[10:45] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: you the rezzzer
*[10:45] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: the owner
*[10:45] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: oh, yes
*[10:45] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: what do you give the sim?
*[10:46] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: if I give the sim a pesrsistent URI
*[10:46] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: The URI by which it can fetch the parts of that tuple it needs
*[10:46] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I am setting up some really bad srtuff
*[10:46] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: So, that's how it gets on the sim
*[10:46] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: (and i agree
*[10:46] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: a onetime cap to fetch it)
*[10:46] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: On return
*[10:46] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: u give to sim a blob that has all the info about the object
*[10:46] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: hours, days, weeks,. months, later
*[10:46] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Sim does not need "appearance" data.
*[10:46] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: The sim gets a request to "return" it
*[10:47] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: the sim stores that blob locally and gives it to every ave in the sim
*[10:47] Zha Ewry gestures at the deployment patterns document
*[10:47] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Good stuff here today, needs much thought. I hope Sai's recording for transcript.
*[10:47] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: that's one pattern
*[10:47] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: each client extracts whatever info it wants from the blob
*[10:47] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: No, it sends the *URI* to every viewer in the sim
*[10:47] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Tha's another
*[10:47] Dahlia Trimble prances off to the secret hidden realm of the faeries... bye all :)
*[10:47] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and it may not send the same one to each client
*[10:47] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Let them fetch their own copes, over some different channel
*[10:47] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: if object is rezzed the uri will not have local data
*[10:47] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: copies
*[10:48] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: tc dahlia
*[10:48] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: have you read the deployment pattern's draft?
*[10:48] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Sim can tell clients, "face #3 has texture with this URI. Go get it if you care"
*[10:49] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: it doesn't make sense for sim to tell client to get data, when the sim could store data locally and give it
*[10:49] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Or, "Object with URI=u1 is at location XYZ, rotated THUS"
*[10:49] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-levine-vwrap-deploy-01.txt
*[10:49] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: It does if you want to only allow people with licenses to see it Rex
*[10:49] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: if clients gets an uri it has to make an extra connection and get that data
*[10:49] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Trying to get the sim out of the server proxy business.
*[10:49] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: or you want to do content negotiation
*[10:49] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: is wasted time and network resources
*[10:49] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I think perhaps objects need to be handled by regions as a diff w.r.to the asset retrieved by a separate path from the asset service for that object.
*[10:49] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Depends

*[10:50] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Yesl, an extra connection to SOMEWHERE ELSE. spread the load
*[10:50] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: if the texture is a common one
*[10:50] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: the "extra fetch" can be to akamai
*[10:50] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: or a cache in your network
*[10:50] Morgaine Dinova nods
*[10:50] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: HTTP servers are very optimized at doing this. VW sims are not
*[10:50] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Forcing the sim to always hold all content is kind of painful
*[10:50] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yep
*[10:51] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: the sim can have a locall asset store
*[10:51] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I draw your attention to 9.3.3.1 in he deployment draft
*[10:51] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: All the sim needs to hold is 1. The data it needs itself, and 2. URIs to pass on to the viewers.
*[10:51] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: it will function similar to a hard drive buffer:)
*[10:51] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Where you will find all those choices laid out
*[10:51] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Pasing all data through the sim increases the network oload considerably
*[10:52] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Sometimes it makes sense
*[10:52] [[User: Chris Tuchs|Chris Tuchs]]: otoh, passing all client to client comms through an intermediary helps maintain client privacy
*[10:52] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I'm strongly arguing that the spec should permit the range
*[10:52] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: everywhere you can put a blob, you can put a URI
*[10:52] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I agree with that
*[10:53] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: what if 30k users want the same asset. that means the asset server will get overloaded
*[10:53] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: The protocol should not force one solution to that
*[10:53] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Chris|Morgaine Dinova: Chris]]: given a URL to an asset service, you can always choose a proxy for it.
*[10:53] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Asset servers have caches too
*[10:53] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Put the item on a cached, high speed server. Its bound to better than on a SIM which is running physics and caching it
*[10:53] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Looks at the specs for the YAWS HTTP server. It is very VERY fast
*[10:54] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Saying the sim shoudl hold it
*[10:54] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: is effectively saying
*[10:54] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: "I can do phyisics and content serving fastert than just content serving"
*[10:54] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Not always true
*[10:54] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: depending how u implement the sim, it can either store blobs locally or give an uri:)
*[10:54] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Sims are the computational bottleneck. They should be offloaded of everything not related to "presence" simulation.
*[10:54] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: totally true Rex
*[10:54] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: In any case, with asset services decoupled from world providers, a lot of the privacy issues become less worrying, because it's generally the world operator that is the weak link.
*[10:54] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and that's the point
*[10:55] [[User: Opensource Obscure|Opensource Obscure]]: see you everybody
*[10:55] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Protocol must be able to handle both
*[10:55] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: anywhere you might get an object
*[10:55] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: expect a URI
*[10:55] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: tc open
*[10:55] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: just not the spanish inquistion
*[10:55] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: 5 mins to 11am
*[10:55] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: as long as the sim can do both, there is no problem:)
*[10:55] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: what happens at 11?
*[10:55] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Andrew or OSgrid
*[10:55] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: what morgaine said:)
*[10:55] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: A sim designer can be free to never send out blobs.
*[10:55] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Or always
*[10:55] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: or a mix
*[10:56] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Including "If you paid premium you'd see pretty textures, but you see default crappy trees"
*[10:56] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Yes. Protocol must handle both. The mix is a business decision
*[10:56] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I'd say policy
*[10:56] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: haha
*[10:56] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: which is my way of saying "Business or other chocie makers"
*[10:56] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Yes, sim will always return plywood no matter what you ask for.
*[10:56] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: the protocol can have one byte that when set to zero means a blob is comming and when is 1 that means here is a uri go get it yourself:)
*[10:57] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: LLSD so you get <map blob, binary blobd> or <map blob, URI>
*[10:57] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: And if its a URI
*[10:58] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: you know what do
*[10:58] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Dont require LLSD, please
*[10:58] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: there r different ways to do it
*[10:59] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: ok. time 4 me 2g2 andrew's oh
*[10:59] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: kk
*[10:59] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Great stuff today
*[10:59] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: READ DRAFTS
*[10:59] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Comment on them
*[10:59] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: IETF in 2 weeks
*[11:00] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: And Joshua's Jabber gateway to be tested before then.
*[11:00] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: And mixed reality
*[11:00] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: we are DANG well gonna have a full up meeting this time
*[11:00] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Stream the real world into a SIM
*[11:00] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and get people in SL on the mike line
*[11:00] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Would be nice
*[11:00] [[User: Wyn Galbraith|Wyn Galbraith]]: cool
*[11:01] [[User: Wyn Galbraith|Wyn Galbraith]]: When is that?
*[11:01] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Barry and Josh are on hook to do it
*[11:01] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: 23rd, Anaheim
*[11:01] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: 9:00 am PST/ STL
*[11:01] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: *SLT
*[11:01] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Be nice if RL meetings about VW were visible inside VWs
*[11:02] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: That is the plan
*[11:02] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Or at least a ustream page. :)
*[11:02] [[User: Wyn Galbraith|Wyn Galbraith]]: They did that at SLCC
*[11:02] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Mind you I get to live the irony of "Ok, so I need travel to go to meat people about virtual spaces" every few months.
*[11:03] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: My experience is, streaming video into SL is messy unless you have Mac computers present. Stupid QuickTime
*[11:03] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: "Wait, you're GOING to a conference on virtual worlds"
*[11:03] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: :-)
*[11:03] [[User: Wyn Galbraith|Wyn Galbraith]]: Live music viewed in world and SL viewed in RL
*[11:03] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Josh is supposed to be settting up a test
*[11:03] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and yeah, I agree
*[11:03] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Streaming out of RL is annoyingly hard
*[11:04] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Ive been involved in big two-reality conferences. It needs lots of testing in advance. And make sure your stream server scales
*[11:04] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Its load sof fun though, when you have streaming both ways.
*[11:05] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Yeps
*[11:05] [[User: Wyn Galbraith|Wyn Galbraith]]: It is
*[11:05] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Its hard, but remarkably cool
*[11:05] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: All the RL people see these funny cartoon people on the big screen,m actually participatin gin the discussion
*[11:05] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and it should be fun to blow the dust off the greaybirds
*[11:05] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: yes
*[11:05] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: People who have never seen it before are going "wtf"
*[11:05] [[User: Wyn Galbraith|Wyn Galbraith]]: My gang were talking about it's too bad we can't stream tv inworld, then no matter where we were we could watch together.
*[11:05] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I was in one such session. haha
*[11:05] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: mind you, if I was bearded, I would be a gray beard, but.. I try not to act like it.
*[11:07] Wyn Galbraith is going to run off and play a little.
*[11:07] [[User: Object|Object]]: Touched.
*[11:07] [[User: Object|Object]]: <0.28726, 0.91902, -0.26996>
*[11:07] Chris Tuchs has tons of reading to do now... open cobalt, vwrap...
*[11:07] [[User: Chris Tuchs|Chris Tuchs]]: See y'all around...
*[11:07] [[User: Tiny Blue Kitty Head|Tiny Blue Kitty Head]]: All Go
*[11:08] Wyn Galbraith poofs.
*[11:08] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and off
*[11:12] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Think I'll pop over to Andrew's and sit there instead. I'm really at OSgrid just now.

[[Category:Grid_Interoperability_Chat_Logs]]
[[Category:AW_Groupies_Transcripts]]
[[Category:MMOX]]

AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2010-03-02

2010-03-02T19:06:06Z

Saijanai Kuhn:

*[08:29] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: realXtend in the house :)
*[08:29] [[User: Dale Innis|Dale Innis]]: :) yep! hiyas
*[08:29] Zha Ewry shrugs and ponders why one wouldn't just use IRC then
*[08:29] [[User: CrawlingIn Meskin|CrawlingIn Meskin]]: I'm just checking realxtend out from svn right now
*[08:30] [[User: Dale Innis|Dale Innis]]: we doing sound of any kind?
*[08:30] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Only if people specifically need to
*[08:30] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Zha usualy has Radio Paradise playing :-)
*[08:30] [[User: Dale Innis|Dale Innis]]: goodgood
*[08:30] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I don't turn sound off, but we traditionally use chat
*[08:30] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: It's easier to grep chat ;-)
*[08:31] [[User: CrawlingIn Meskin|CrawlingIn Meskin]]: hey zero
*[08:31] [[User: Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: hello
*[08:31] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: hey Zero
*[08:31] Python Morales stretches fingers to prepare for a lot of typing
*[08:31] [[User: Omegadon Aeon|Omegadon Aeon]]: Hey
*[08:31] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: 41 peeps. I think we can say RealXtend has people
*[08:31] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: s attention
*[08:32] [[User: Omegadon Aeon|Omegadon Aeon]]: Joshua Linden, are you a peppermint?
*[08:32] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: /strecth
*[08:32] [[User: CrawlingIn Meskin|CrawlingIn Meskin]]: Can I get a copy of your bear zero?
*[08:32] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: oops :)
*[08:32] [[User: Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: I'm just bored without a sim at the moment. ;)
*[08:32] [[User: Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: (rolling update)
*[08:32] [[User: CrawlingIn Meskin|CrawlingIn Meskin]]: thanks :)
*[08:32] [[User: Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: hmm. I think I've seen omegadon somewhere recently
*[08:33] [[User: Widget Whiteberry|Widget Whiteberry]]: If I've landed on your head, just give me a nudge
*[08:33] [[User: CrawlingIn Meskin|CrawlingIn Meskin]]: hahaha
*[08:33] [[User: CrawlingIn Meskin|CrawlingIn Meskin]]: sure filled up quickly
*[08:33] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: ok, so should we get started or wait a while still?
*[08:33] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: ok - I'm ready now
*[08:33] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: It's natural that Naali has people's attention, since the main LL viewer seems to have gone closed source, Snowglobe is moving towards being a Webkit-like library according to Howard Linden, and the general air of non-cooperation in opensource-dev. Naali looks like the future of viewers.
*[08:33] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: start :)
*[08:33] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: 2 more and you might as well start
*[08:33] [[User: Widget Whiteberry|Widget Whiteberry]]: I had to wait out a region restart ...
*[08:34] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: We got to 41 or so and that seems pretty constant
*[08:34] [[User: CrawlingIn Meskin|CrawlingIn Meskin]]: Can I get your bear as well Joshua? :D
*[08:34] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: closed source?
*[08:34] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: welcome Python Morales from realXtend
*[08:34] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hi Python!
*[08:35] [[User: Widget Whiteberry|Widget Whiteberry]]: a peppermint nautilus, with derby for gender ID, I imagine
*[08:35] [[User: Zha Ewry shouts|Zha Ewry shouts]]: If you are OUTSIDE the circle of crystals everyone will not hear you
*[08:35] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: hi - yes my name is Toni Alatalo, <antont> on irc and some other places, and I'm currently working as the lead architect in realXtend
*[08:35] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Greetings Toni :-)
*[08:35] [[User: Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: joshua looks like one of those flying respawning monsters from metroid
*[08:35] [[User: Omegadon Aeon|Omegadon Aeon]]: he looks pretty insane
*[08:35] [[User: Omegadon Aeon|Omegadon Aeon]]: i think he may be afk lol
*[08:35] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: hiya antont :)
*[08:36] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: the reason for the weird av name here in SL is that originally i didn't plan to use SL much, but wanted to test a AI snippet in some world, and the code is called moral.py :) http://an.org/programming/moral.py.html
*[08:36] [[User: Lnn Nishi|Lnn Nishi]]: Finally rezzed. Hi everyone
*[08:36] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Haha
*[08:36] [[User: Widget Whiteberry|Widget Whiteberry]]: Cealwin is a wonderful flying book
*[08:36] [[User: Dale Innis|Dale Innis]]: That's not a weird name... :)
*[08:36] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: but apparently i ended up using it so the name stuck :o
*[08:36] [[User: CrawlingIn Meskin|CrawlingIn Meskin]]: I agree
*[08:36] [[User: IFellThroughA Trapdoor|IFellThroughA Trapdoor]]: who has a weird av name?
*[08:36] [[User: Dale Innis|Dale Innis]]: hahaha
*[08:36] [[User: Omegadon Aeon|Omegadon Aeon]]: haha
*[08:36] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: right :)
*[08:37] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: the amount of people here makes me speechless almost :)
*[08:37] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Will you start with a talk or intro to Naali, or is it Q&A?
*[08:37] [[User: Widget Whiteberry|Widget Whiteberry]]: Saij beats a big drum
*[08:37] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: you know, we are quiet folks up in northern finland, not used to attention!
*[08:37] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: good thing you can still write :)
*[08:37] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: (We're pretty technical in Groupies, so lay it on)
*[08:37] [[User: Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]: Not afl, just using busted client build over cruddy connection. :(
*[08:37] [[User: Lnn Nishi|Lnn Nishi]]: hmm guess it didn't fully rez
*[08:37] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: i can give an intro
*[08:37] [[User: Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]: Not afl, just using busted client build over cruddy connection. :(
*[08:37] [[User: Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]: Not afl, just using busted client build over cruddy connection. :(
*[08:37] [[User: Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]: Not afl, just using busted client build over cruddy connection. :(
*[08:37] [[User: Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]: Not afl, just using busted client build over cruddy connection. :(
*[08:37] [[User: Joshua Linden|Joshua Linden]]: Not afl, just using busted client build over cruddy connection. :(
*[08:37] [[User: Omegadon Aeon|Omegadon Aeon]]: woah
*[08:37] [[User: CrawlingIn Meskin|CrawlingIn Meskin]]: lol
*[08:37] [[User: Raz Welles|Raz Welles]]: whoo ok need to go back to normal viewer to keep up >.>wow
*[08:38] [[User: Raz Welles|Raz Welles]]: wow screen is filled up with names xD
*[08:38] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Joshua|Morgaine Dinova: Joshua]]: use Emerald or Imprudence
*[08:38] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: but mostly i think it will be Q&A
*[08:38] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: i just repeat the basics here 'cause not everyone has read our web/wiki info anyways
*[08:38] [[User: Omegadon Aeon|Omegadon Aeon]]: well its good you made it though Joshua
*[08:38] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: ok?
*[08:38] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: This meeting is being recorded and put onthe wiki, so keep that in mind
*[08:38] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: In the Noob Viewer (V2), select simple text format for chat. (in prefs)
*[08:38] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Great, Python!
*[08:38] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: This is NOT using voice right? Cause voice does NOT work (as usual). Damn closed source.
*[08:38] [[User: Raz Welles|Raz Welles]]: hey pforce :)
*[08:38] [[User: Raz Welles|Raz Welles]]: I recognize that name
*[08:39] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Aleric|Morgaine Dinova: Aleric]]: text chat
*[08:39] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: ok. so realxtend is an open source project, not a company, and not a service either .. just devs tech, like the apache project or the mozilla project or the opensim project
*[08:39] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: #realxtend-dev possibly :)
*[08:39] [[User: CrawlingIn Meskin|CrawlingIn Meskin]]: saw it in the commit logs :)
*[08:39] [[User: Raz Welles|Raz Welles]]: yep, it's intertric- don't mind the av gender, it's a trap :P
*[08:39] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: realxtend doesn't run a grid and as a project doesn't plan to
*[08:40] [[User: Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: just enables someone else to?
*[08:40] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: so in the project we focus on developing technology, that any company can use the way we want. it is apache licenced (bsd-like)
*[08:40] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: exactly, Tapple
*[08:40] [[User: Omegadon Aeon|Omegadon Aeon]]: you have some company there Saijanai
*[08:40] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: at least I didn't sit on HIM
*[08:40] [[User: Omegadon Aeon|Omegadon Aeon]]: HAHA
*[08:40] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: err, "can use the way they want", i meant to say :)
*[08:41] [[User: BrainCrave OHare|BrainCrave OHare]]: (you will be assimilated)
*[08:41] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: so we are not at all like Linden or SL in that sense, we not run a world
*[08:41] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: if Linden wants to use reX tech to run SL they are free to do so :)
*[08:41] [[User: Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: cobalt is taking the same approach. nice
*[08:41] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: we have been doing this about 2,5 years now
*[08:41] [[User: Aleric Inglewood: Python|Aleric Inglewood: Python]]: are you the only speaker from realxtend here?
*[08:42] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I see 3 people with reX dev tags
*[08:42] [[User: CrawlingIn Meskin|CrawlingIn Meskin]]: mikko is here as well
*[08:42] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: three other devs here too, but lets let Toni do the talking :)
*[08:42] [[User: CrawlingIn Meskin|CrawlingIn Meskin]]: heh
*[08:42] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: we can help Q&A if needed
*[08:42] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: started by making a quick prototype by forking slviewer and opensim, most notably added mesh support, but also html-on-prim and vnc etc
*[08:43] [[User: Aeonix Aeon|Aeonix Aeon]]: dynamic lighting in RealXtend?
*[08:43] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: got meshes by integrating the ogre renderer to slviewer
*[08:43] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Aeonix, yes, what in ogre normally, also shadows .. we have a set of materials that support those
*[08:43] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: did you try to get meshes to work with the SL renderer at all?
*[08:43] [[User: Aeonix Aeon|Aeonix Aeon]]: Ah.. then I've seena video of that in action :) very good work indeed
*[08:43] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: anyhow to cut a long story short, in late 2008 we decided to write a new viewer from scratch
*[08:43] [[User: Aeonix Aeon|Aeonix Aeon]]: OGRE is a good system for that
*[08:44] Widget Whiteberry hopes someone is harvesting this chat for the wiki
*[08:44] [[User: CrawlingIn Meskin|CrawlingIn Meskin]]: can always just grep it
*[08:44] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Dahlia - I don't think we did, i guess because we wanted the other feats from Ogre too
*[08:44] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: (That sounds like you looked a lot at the GPL-ed viewer source code. The opensim people make a huge point of NOT looking at that code, needed for their bsd-license.... is this not a problem for the realxtend license?)
*[08:44] Saijanai Kuhn checked the chat log its filling up
*[08:44] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Aleric, licensing is one reason we decided to write a new viewer from scratch
*[08:44] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Ah, yes, someone should have stated that. This is a public chat, as always for Groupies, and transcripts will be up.
*[08:45] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Morgaine, I did at the start
*[08:45] [[User: Zetaphor Wirefly|Zetaphor Wirefly]]: What is teh crrent development status of Nalli?
*[08:45] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Thanks Sai
*[08:45] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Note; we publish chat logs on the wiki
*[08:45] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Aleric - in the beginning we had two teams, a server team and a viewer team.
*[08:46] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: then before Naali (the new viewer) dev started, we had a cooldown period for the ppl worked on the linden based viewer earlier
*[08:46] [[User: Azwaldo Villota|Azwaldo Villota]]: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Grid_Interoperability_Chat_Logs
*[08:46] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: and made the designs for the new viewer as design docs from scratch
*[08:47] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: Cooldown? If I want to switch from snowglobe to realxtend, do I need to have a cool down period first?
*[08:47] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: then there are totally virgins like me, joinde in the summer and have never seen any LL code, actually about 2nd time to even start the LL viewer
*[08:47] [[User: Azwaldo Villota: Saijanai|Azwaldo Villota: Saijanai]]: is ^that^ where we would find the log for this event?
*[08:47] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I remember the reX-NG design days, that was indeed a long time.
*[08:48] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Aleric - yes, unless Linden in kind enough to tell Opensim developers that they won't claim that Opensim is copied from slviewer, and hence Linden's copyright
*[08:48] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: before that happens, we respect the Opensim contributions policy, and don't look at slviewer code
*[08:48] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: so that we can contribute to opensim too, and have opensim devs read Naali code
*[08:48] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: If I remember to put the category tag in, yes
*[08:49] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Let's not get into LL evilness, we've had enough of that this last fortnight, and it's getting worse. Want to hear about Naali.
*[08:49] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: ok
*[08:49] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: well, like said Naali is from scratch
*[08:49] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: uses Ogre for rendering
*[08:49] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Qt for UI
*[08:49] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: is a module architecture
*[08:49] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: idea being that anyone can implement new functionality in new modules
*[08:49] [[User: Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: <3
*[08:49] [[User: Aleric Inglewood: :( ... I'm very frustrated right now, because it turned out that all bug fixes and patches written for Snowglobe have been ignored by LL's internal coders|Aleric Inglewood: :( ... I'm very frustrated right now, because it turned out that all bug fixes and patches written for Snowglobe have been ignored by LL's internal coders]]: the 2.0 source code still has all the crashes and assertion failures that we fixed.... So, I was seriously thinking of joining realxtend ... Now you tell me that I can't because of your choice of license? Same reason I can't join opensim? This REALLY sucks.
*[08:50] [[User: Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: c++ code?
*[08:50] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Is the naali team under the same requirement as teh server team?
*[08:50] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: (I'd never ever use code from snowglobe anyway... the code sucks :p))
*[08:50] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Aleric, not if you work on the viewer side, the rule was for the server alone
*[08:50] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: yes, Naali is a c++ app, but has currently Python support too. Javascript is in plans
*[08:50] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: BSD has no requirement to not look at GPL (or a particular company's) sources.
*[08:51] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: squeak FTW!
*[08:51] [[User: Raz Welles: Python|Raz Welles: Python]]: the current avatar joint deformation limit is 4 joints per vertex, is that a limitation in ogre, or just a #DEFINE?
*[08:51] [[User: Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: Interesting, I see OGRE went MIT. Was wondering how you incorporated it as LGPL.
*[08:51] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Latif, no, we use now the same policy for the viewer as for the server, for the aforemention unfortunate reasons
*[08:51] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: Aleric you can contribute to OpenSim if you like, but your patches wont be accepted into core unless you haven't seen LL code for at least 6 months. You can publish external modules on forge.opensimulator.org
*[08:51] [[User: Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Please pardon my ignorance, but what server does Naali target? LL server at all? Opensim? RX-branch of opensim?
*[08:51] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Talarus, Ogre was LGPL earlier
*[08:51] [[User: Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: Aye, I know. :) I use it
*[08:51] [[User: Aeonix Aeon|Aeonix Aeon]]: I believe the best option all around is to have LindenLab integrate the features of RealXtend functionality into the RC main viewer. There is a lot of exciting advancements on the RealXtend viewer, but ultimately being fractured from the core audience is the biggest drawback.
*[08:52] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Ceawlin, ah, a good point. for the new features in reX, like mesh support, we use stock opensim + a module called ModRex which adds those features
*[08:52] [[User: Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: not if SL users aren't the target audience
*[08:52] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Python|Morgaine Dinova: Python]]: on what legal opinion did you base the 6-month period on? Because there is no such thing in copyright nor patent law, and Opensim refuse to disclose how they came up with the 6-month period thing.
*[08:52] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Aeonix, yes, certainly having all the features we wan't in slviewer would be great.
*[08:52] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: Will you be able to rez objects client side only ? via the scripting language?
*[08:53] [[User: Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Ah cool. So you are working fairly closely with the opensim folks then, and it's a good bet that Naali will always work pretty well with opensim bleeding edge things and such?
*[08:53] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Morgaine, I don't know exactly, wasn't that involved in the management then, basically just know we use the same policy as opensim
*[08:53] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Python|Morgaine Dinova: Python]]: you need to revisit that then.
*[08:53] [[User: Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: I don't think it is a legal (as in law) decision, just a self-imposed policy.
*[08:53] [[User: Raz Welles: Python|Raz Welles: Python]]: I've used Naali's latest release, do you think you could get an SL-style camera working, or is that against your rules?
*[08:53] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: is this meeting going to turn into a licensing issue meeting?
*[08:54] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I'm expecting a techincal discussion
*[08:54] [[User: Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Also, is ModRex -required- on the sim, or just optional?
*[08:54] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: yes - I DO NOT want to hear about licencing
*[08:54] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I agree with Dahlia, let's not talk about licensing
*[08:54] [[User: Zetaphor Wirefly|Zetaphor Wirefly]]: As am I
*[08:54] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Caewlin, yes, and Naali also works against vanilla Opensim (and probably SL too, we haven't tested), and we collaborate closely with opensim devs now
*[08:54] [[User: Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: \o/
*[08:54] [[User: Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: that may be a bit of a stretch. Best to work with wonderland or cobalt if you want to work on layered worlds
*[08:54] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: people who want to have a licensing discussion should feel free to get with me, and schedule one
*[08:54] [[User: Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Y'all rock. :P
*[08:54] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: Will you be able to rez objects client side only ? via the scripting language?
*[08:54] [[User: Aeonix Aeon|Aeonix Aeon]]: well, it's not so much for the "greatness" effect but more o limit the amount of fracturing in a community. The amount of progress in third party form isn't very helpful if the whole is not on the same page.
*[08:54] [[User: Tapple Gao]]kaiser: I was replying to you
*[08:55] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: ty :)
*[08:55] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Python, was the protocol stack also written from scratch. And how hard would it be to use just the communication/network bit of the viewer?
*[08:55] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Good question from Latif
*[08:55] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: The comm/network part of the viewer is one of the worst parts!
*[08:55] [[User: Mikko Panacek: Kaiser|Mikko Panacek: Kaiser]]: objects can also be rezzed on server side with python scripting
*[08:55] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Kaiser - yes, actually the current object editing tool in Naali is written in Python, also to test the API, and it loads local meshes .. the 3d editing wdgetsi
*[08:55] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: I'm only here because I wanted to join the team of realxtend, and now I'm told I can't... so .. seems pretty important to me :/
*[08:56] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: NICE :)
*[08:56] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: If you look at the long erm plans on the realxtend web site, they want to replace the protocol anyway.
*[08:56] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Aleric|Morgaine Dinova: Aleric]]: fork Naali. Then some time in the future the changes can be merged. And if they refuse the merge then it's a new version. That's cool in open source.
*[08:56] [[User: Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: 6 months seems reasonable to me. takes about that long to learn the code too much anyway
*[08:56] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Aleric, that's really unfortunate .. code some cool feat that sl doesn't have, that takes you 6 monts, and don't look at Linden code in the meantime .. so we get a cool feat and you comply :)h
*[08:57] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: Will I be able to add my own render "pools"?
*[08:57] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Kaiser, what do you mean?
*[08:57] Python Morales reads up to see unanswered questions
*[08:57] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Python|Morgaine Dinova: Python]]: not adequate. LL code is GPL, and there is nothing in GPL or BSD or Apache licensing that prevents people from looking at GPL code.
*[08:57] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: right now in the SL viewer there are several class for sky/ground/volumes etc...
*[08:58] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: the policy is the policy. THis is a tech talk
*[08:58] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: each "class" has special rendering code for GL
*[08:58] [[User: Aeonix Aeon|Aeonix Aeon]]: If realXtend is going to fork off as a new system eventually, then I'd highly suggest in the area of "rewrite protocols" to opt for a P2P load balancer instead of having monsterour server farms to handle the load centralized.
*[08:58] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: its very unmodular
*[08:58] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Aeonix, yes that is interesting
*[08:58] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: If you want to add a ray traced surface for example
*[08:58] [[User: Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: hmm. does naali support the SL prim system? I'd like to lift that code into cobalt someday for some level of content compatability. Cobalt is mit licensed
*[08:59] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: regarding protocols, we hope that the Naali framework could eventually be multiprotocol
*[08:59] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Given that you can walk around OpenSim with Naali, the answer would be yes.
*[08:59] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: not tied to any specific protocols nor servers
*[08:59] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: (about prims)
*[08:59] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: yes, we have a c++ port of Dahlia's primmesher in Naali
*[08:59] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Python|Morgaine Dinova: Python]]: I would be interested in a new protocol module, initially for testing VWRAP protocols for cross-world interop, and then to make them publicly usable. How hard might it be to place a parallel stack into Naali?
*[08:59] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: he heh. I am tryngn to do that myself.
*[09:00] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: (Bearing in mind that John Hurliman is working on VWRAP too)
*[09:00] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Woot, Mojito!
*[09:00] [[User: Aeonix Aeon|Aeonix Aeon]]: Something I've worked with over the past number of years, and I fully believe that it's the way to go. Instead of a single set of central servers dealing with a lot of people, each person could seamlessly cascade redundant data to nearest proximity, which would drastically lower load centrally on servers.
*[09:00] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: Morgaine hopefully just implemeting your own ProtocolModule that handles the network stuff
*[09:00] [[User: Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: how strongly internal parts of Naali are coupled together? for example it is possible change graphics engine to directX? or are those parts modules like others?
*[09:00] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: and some work for other modules for logic
*[09:00] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Morgaine, placing the module there is easy - having all kinds of messages it handles work for all the functionality is difficult, but getting basics like login and movement working should be doable now
*[09:00] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: It does use DirectX.
*[09:01] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: It certainly tries to load the DirectX driver on Linux (for which I entered a bug)
*[09:01] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Python|Morgaine Dinova: Python]]: great to hear!
*[09:01] [[User: Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: well... let's say that to other graphics engine than ogre :P
*[09:01] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Thanks Pforce
*[09:01] [[User: Pforce Digfoot: Imaze|Pforce Digfoot: Imaze]]: you can run ogre in opengl or dx
*[09:01] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Imaze, yes the renderer is also just a module. and yep Ogre can use either opengl or d3d itself 'cause it also is tema plugin sys
*[09:01] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: if that answers your question
*[09:01] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: There is no abstraction layer between Ogre and the rest of it, if that is what you mean. Just some convenience routines.
*[09:02] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Changing the renderer WOULD require changes in othe rmodules though
*[09:02] [[User: Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: just wondering do you have some parts that can't be replaced by other module
*[09:02] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Imaze, but currently our abstractions are not complete, like Mojito says other modules also assume that Ogre is used
*[09:02] [[User: Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: ah... so there is couling there to ogre
*[09:02] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: The cental part of the logic is all in one module though. Most of the changes would be in there.
*[09:02] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: is there any documentation available?
*[09:02] [[User: Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: ... coupling...
*[09:02] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: So, the 3D part is platform neutral because Ogre can be switched between GL and DirectX. What about the Qt part?
*[09:03] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: If you load the sources, there is a lot of doxygen-generated documentation
*[09:03] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: With reference graphs yet
*[09:03] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: nice
*[09:03] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Some devs do not put in all the method comments that they should. :)
*[09:04] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: basically much of reX dev is balancing between having abstractions and decoupling, and getting features implemented
*[09:04] [[User: Pforce Digfoot: Kaiser|Pforce Digfoot: Kaiser]]: we have a nice wiki for all kinds of stuff how to get started, and also doxygen style wiki for devs
*[09:04] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: yay! :)
*[09:04] [[User: Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: cool.
*[09:04] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: so if someone has a real need for using a different renderer, we can evaluate the feasibility and support making it switchable
*[09:04] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: Qt uses the raster engine atm
*[09:04] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: now it's kind of half way
*[09:04] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: same with the protocol
*[09:05] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Python|Morgaine Dinova: Python]]: does the scene graph of Naali assume an SL/Opensim -type Flatland, or are other world topologies possible with Naali, like space worlds?
*[09:05] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: if we would only be making a perfect framework and abstractions, we would not have any features
*[09:05] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: I would also like to be able to do client side physics
*[09:05] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: and we do ui drawing atm so that we render the content of our main QGraphicsView into a image and pass that to ogre to bombine UI overlay and 3D rendering
*[09:05] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: will you be able to use QT for non-ogre rendering. say a script editor in another window?
*[09:05] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: If you rewrite the RexLogicModule", you can do any sort of scenegraph you want
*[09:05] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Kaiser, client side physics is a requirement for us all I think, already the first viewer prototype (the old rexviewer) does client side physics
*[09:06] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: Perfect!
*[09:06] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Latif, yes using qt for windows outside the main window works
*[09:06] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Kaiser, that said, it is not scheduled for Naali yet, feel free to start implementing :)
*[09:06] [[User: Pforce Digfoot: Latif|Pforce Digfoot: Latif]]: yes you can do external windows as you like outside of the mainwindow, for internal windows we have a UiModule that provides services to push any QWidget you can make into the Qt scene
*[09:06] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: LOL
*[09:06] [[User: Aeonix Aeon|Aeonix Aeon]]: Client side physics makes more sense, anyway. Passing only the variables for syncing to other users.
*[09:06] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: excellent, so not everything needs to go into 3d window :)
*[09:06] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: ++
*[09:07] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: we originally needed to have client side physics to not have lag in the movement, when you e.g. press uparrow
*[09:07] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: there is nothing to implement, you just use Qt widget->show() and you are done, if you dont want to have your widget in the "ogre+qt" scene
*[09:07] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: yep - makes perfect sense
*[09:07] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: So defaulot is Qt windows are outside. It takes an extra step to put it in the 3D window
*[09:08] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Pforce that would be an excellent option for scripters, especially with dual monitor setup
*[09:08] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Morgaine, the last/latest old rexviewer 0.42 supports spherical worlds
*[09:08] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: though - you'll need a reference physics machine server side
*[09:08] [[User: Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: hmm. is the physics engine custom or stock? we can't use any open source physics engines in cobalt because they aren't deterministic across platforms
*[09:08] [[User: Pforce Digfoot: Mojito|Pforce Digfoot: Mojito]]: yes you use the Naali UiModule services for that
*[09:08] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Morgaine, that is a kind of a hack - supporting different geometries and coordinate systems etc in a proper manner would be interesting indeed
*[09:08] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: how do you resolve a difference between server physics and client physics? i.e., if a client allows an avatar to move to an area where a server would not?
*[09:08] [[User: Aleric Inglewood: You HAVE to assume that people will do everything possible to screw up the 3d world. Client-side physics sounds nice, but it should lead to one of two things when being messed with|Aleric Inglewood: You HAVE to assume that people will do everything possible to screw up the 3d world. Client-side physics sounds nice, but it should lead to one of two things when being messed with]]: either being rejected by the server, or cause a social isolation of the one doing it (which would mean the whole social structure of SL needs to be redesigned... so forget about point 2)....
*[09:08] [[User: Aeonix Aeon|Aeonix Aeon]]: @Python - yes... and for syncing between users, just go with predictive path based on the variables inherent. Don't need to actually update constantly to other people, just when thee is a change in the variable path.
*[09:08] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Python|Morgaine Dinova: Python]]: woot! So I guess Naali will allow it in time then, just to support the previous planet worlds.
*[09:09] [[User: Pforce Digfoot: quite easy, pseudo|Pforce Digfoot: quite easy, pseudo]]: UiModule->AddWigetToScene(myQWidget);
*[09:09] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: and you get a proxywidget back
*[09:09] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Aleric, normally the server is still authorative for movements etc., the client doing it too being just an optimization to avoid lag
*[09:09] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Opensim normally uses ODE physics, ODE is what we had in the old viewer too
*[09:09] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: yes that IS how to do it
*[09:09] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Just more complicated cases of rubberbanding is all
*[09:09] [[User: Aleric Inglewood: Python|Aleric Inglewood: Python]]: sounds good. What takes most time for "physics"? Collision detection?
*[09:10] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: perhaps i say a little bit more about our goals
*[09:10] [[User: BlueWall Slade|BlueWall Slade]]: would be cool to see support for multiple terrain layers, sky graphics, etc.
*[09:10] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yes please Python
*[09:10] [[User: Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: oh. ok. you have an authoritative server for physics
*[09:10] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: BlueWall, terrain painting is actually planned for relatively short term
*[09:10] [[User: Widget Whiteberry|Widget Whiteberry]]: Goals would be good to hear about
*[09:10] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: There are multiple aspects for physics. Gravity is one, collisions another.
*[09:10] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: depends on the kind of interaction - collision is easy compared to other kinds :)
*[09:10] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: so about goals - reX is not that much about replicating SL
*[09:10] [[User: Aleric Inglewood: That's the one thing I can imagine: you can only collide with one thing at a time... so if the client tells the server|Aleric Inglewood: That's the one thing I can imagine: you can only collide with one thing at a time... so if the client tells the server]]: I collided with that object, it might be possible to speed up checking if that is indeed the first object on the clients path.
*[09:10] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: SL is kinda great as is :)
*[09:11] [[User: Raz Welles|Raz Welles]]: :)
*[09:11] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: but more about enabling anyone to do their own worlds
*[09:11] [[User: Aeonix Aeon|Aeonix Aeon]]: meh for terrain layers... how about just texture splatting for being able to draw terrain on layers? Then would be able to have very nice and organic terrain textures
*[09:11] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: like Opensim in general is
*[09:11] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: but so that you could add all kinds of custom features
*[09:11] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: to have a base platform that could be used to make all kinds of applications
*[09:11] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: with custom control mechanisms, guis etc
*[09:11] [[User: Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: is Naali currently supporting materials - for example specular lighting maps and other shader effects?
*[09:12] [[User: Raz Welles|Raz Welles]]: yes
*[09:12] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: & the modularity is a huge win .. really cuts down on debug time & QA & leverages all of us external developers
*[09:12] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Imaze, yes, basically using the normal ogre material system
*[09:12] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: so to get this extensibility
*[09:12] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: the viewer is built around the idea of Entity-Components
*[09:13] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: and we are now sponsoring & participating in a major refactor in the server side in Opensim
*[09:13] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: for the scene code there
*[09:13] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Python|Morgaine Dinova: Python]]: do you mean for example allowing people to create a specialist, native simulation in Taiga, and having that supported automatically in Naali?
*[09:13] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: to get the support for arbitrary scene data there too
*[09:13] [[User: Raz Welles|Raz Welles]]: Any plans to make opensim run in linux natively?
*[09:13] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: Raz, no
*[09:13] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Raz, not AFAIK
*[09:14] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: that said other server implementations are possible
*[09:14] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: like someone wrote a small sludp / opensim compat server in c+ lua
*[09:14] [[User: Raz Welles|Raz Welles]]: ahh I see
*[09:14] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Morgaine, I did not understand you fully. 'native simulation' ?
*[09:14] [[User: Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: what does arbitrary scene data mean? heiarchial key-value store?
*[09:14] [[User: Raz Welles: Python|Raz Welles: Python]]: is 4 joints per vertex for rigged avatars an Ogre limitation or just a defined limit?
*[09:15] [[User: BlueWall Slade|BlueWall Slade]]: OMV is writing the grid services in php
*[09:15] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I don't understand Raz's question. Opensim already runs in Linux natively.
*[09:15] [[User: Raz Welles: Morgaine|Raz Welles: Morgaine]]: I meant as in not requiring .Net libraries
*[09:15] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Raz, I think Ogre
*[09:15] [[User: Raz Welles|Raz Welles]]: er, mono
*[09:15] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Tapple, good question
*[09:16] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: our design for the compeonent based data model in the viewer is http://wiki.realxtend.org/index.php/NG_Design_Document/Viewer_Architecture/Framework
*[09:16] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: but that deals with the in-memory data only
*[09:16] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Raz|Morgaine Dinova: Raz]]: Opensim doesn't require .NET libraries. Mono libraries are quite sufficient, and there's no .NET code at all.
*[09:17] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: i think how Adam Frisby is now planning that for Opensim is similar, have classes that define components (like Mesh) and their serialization
*[09:17] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: it's actually in my to-do to ask how the new opensim scene could support arbitrary data it doesn't know about
*[09:17] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: so for example to support a new light type
*[09:18] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: we could just define that component in the viewer
*[09:18] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: We have people from Opensim Core here, they might know
*[09:18] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: and have the protocol sync it and the server store it
*[09:18] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: and 'cause the server doesn't actually render anything, it would not need to know about the internals of the light data - just be able to relay and store it
*[09:18] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: Adam has published a document, it should be in opensim-dev archives
*[09:19] [[User: Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: ok. that would be very useful for cobalt. Our scene graph needs a way to store pointers to squeak classes at the moment
*[09:19] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: yep i linked to it in the doc that wrote yesterday
*[09:19] [[User: Nexii Malthus|Nexii Malthus]]: Wow, arbritary data like that would be a godsend
*[09:19] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: I wouldn't think component variables would be a concern for the server
*[09:19] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: http://wiki.realxtend.org/index.php/Platform_Extensibility_Working_Group links to Adam's post in http://lists.berlios.de/pipermail/opensim-dev/2009-December/008098.html
*[09:20] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Dahlia, but AFAIK so far Adam has been thinking of components that the server knows about, not this idea of it just relaying&storing
*[09:20] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: uh oh
*[09:21] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: That's a good point
*[09:21] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: i remember J. Hurliman has earlier suggested opensim should simply support key-value storage
*[09:21] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: I thought it looked like it could hold non-simulation related data, biut I didn't read it that closely
*[09:21] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: I'd think you'd want dirty variables to be re-broadcast
*[09:21] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Dahlia, ok i need to re-read it also
*[09:21] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: This would allow for all sorts of interesting extensions.
*[09:21] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: & a dirty varible could be a scriptlet as well
*[09:21] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: This is what I meant by having an extensible protocol.
*[09:22] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Mojito, yes, please mention if you have interesting examples :)
*[09:22] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: HTTP and HTML, for one. :)
*[09:22] [[User: Zetaphor Wirefly|Zetaphor Wirefly]]: If that were availible from LSL there would be even more uses
*[09:22] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: I think ultimately you have to have that
*[09:23] [[User: Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: I could even see something like verse for blender compatability
*[09:23] [[User: Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: if it supported arbitrary data
*[09:23] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Having a standard but extensible protocol allows servers and clients to evolve independently. That would be a very good thing for innovation
*[09:23] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: our btw i forgot to mention about my other affiliation - we run a small game company called Playsign, and our interest in reX is to use it to make multiplayer games. we have some arcade style protos, think bomberman
*[09:23] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Mojito, exactly
*[09:23] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: Mojito, OpenSim allows plug-in protocols
*[09:23] [[User: Lor Gynoid|Lor Gynoid]]: Do you need to be careful about creating security holes with an extensible protocol?
*[09:24] [[User: Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Yummy. I want to use opensim for that, too. Lol.
*[09:24] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Now, if some of this extra data is really massive,m you might not want to send it through the direct channel, but through something like a separate HTTP service as is used for textures in some places
*[09:24] [[User: Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: url's are arbitrary data
*[09:24] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Tapple, btw I'm also a Blender developer from a bit earlier and have been thinking of it w.r.t to VWs quite a lot. I was also involved in Verse dev a little bit, we tested it as a part of a Blender job i did back then
*[09:24] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: An extyensible protocol just means there is a way to represent new data types. It has no effect on what they actually mean
*[09:24] [[User: Raz Welles|Raz Welles]]: I have a question, when do we start holding AWG meetings in ReX :3
*[09:25] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: ok - there! so I can add a key/value layer to OpenSim & then to Nalii?
*[09:25] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Python's point is very important for VWRAP too. If a region can only handle types that it knows about, it can never support full inter-world tourism, in which people from foreign worlds arive with objects types that the viewers understand but that the region doesn't.
*[09:25] [[User: Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: wow Python. that's cool
*[09:25] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Good observation.
*[09:25] [[User: Nexii Malthus|Nexii Malthus]]: It's great to hear the interest in verse
*[09:25] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Tapple - i experimeneted even with using Blender as an Opensim client in last July, http://playsign.net/engine/BlenderOMV :)
*[09:26] [[User: Raz Welles|Raz Welles]]: omigod so that was you :D
*[09:26] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: one interesting thing on the server side is php robust grid servers from ScienceSim (Intel) that for one i am monitoring :)
*[09:26] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: now we're getting someplace!
*[09:27] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: but after that we have focused on getting exporting from Blender -> Rex working, we prefer to use Blender (and other companies use other apps like 3ds max) for making the scenes, instead of in-world editing. http://realxtend.blogspot.com/2009/12/tutorial-to-import-scene-from-blender.html
*[09:27] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: we are trying to finish the c# SciSim with intel so we could use it in the Taiga server set (opensi+scisim robust grid services+modrex)
*[09:27] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I agree. No way can a viewer possibly be as good as dedicated tools for that
*[09:27] [[User: Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: both in world and pro tools have their place
*[09:27] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: so possibly Taiga 0.1 could be SciSim based
*[09:28] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Tapple, exactly
*[09:28] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Oh yes. I didnt mean no inworld tools at all.
*[09:28] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: id Software has a very powerful set of in-world tools they use for tweaking their levels
*[09:28] [[User: Raz Welles|Raz Welles]]: SciSim?
*[09:28] Python Morales reads earlier msgs to get back to the extensibility / custom data again
*[09:28] [[User: Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: blender is horrible at solid modeling, however
*[09:29] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: well you can use the tools you want :) i guess that the point
*[09:29] [[User: Raz Welles|Raz Welles]]: I've been wiating for blender to get ngons for ages
*[09:29] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: In-world tools should always be able to COMBINE objects made out-world, at the very least. That needs hierarchical objects though, not the poor 1-level linksets.
*[09:29] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Raz, it has them now thanks to the new BMesh internal mesh structure (ngons)
*[09:30] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: ooohhh good!
*[09:30] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: hierarchies, yes
*[09:30] [[User: Raz Welles: Python|Raz Welles: Python]]: yeah I tried the expeirmental branch a month or so ago, but it's not in trunk yet, and it crashes constantly :<
*[09:30] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: in 2.5?
*[09:30] [[User: Raz Welles|Raz Welles]]: *experimental
*[09:30] [[User: Raz Welles|Raz Welles]]: the single ngons developer is busy with school atm I think
*[09:30] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: but yes Kaiser, the idea is that the platform would support custom components all the way - in clients, protocol and server
*[09:30] [[User: Raz Welles|Raz Welles]]: or last i heard it was a single dev
*[09:30] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: in Naali we kind of have it
*[09:31] [[User: Raz Welles|Raz Welles]]: how do you access the camera through python in naali?
*[09:31] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Raz, Briggs wrote the mesh kernel, joeedh has been integrating it to the tools
*[09:31] [[User: Raz Welles|Raz Welles]]: if you want to make a custom camera?
*[09:31] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Raz, yes
*[09:31] [[User: Raz Welles: Python|Raz Welles: Python]]: ooooh I see
*[09:31] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: would it convert to trimesh anyway?
*[09:31] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: ah someone asked about cameras earlier
*[09:31] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: This sounds cool, very powerful, not restricted by world policy.
*[09:31] [[User: Raz Welles|Raz Welles]]: Me :0
*[09:31] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: we certainly want great all kinds of camera codes
*[09:31] [[User: Raz Welles|Raz Welles]]: *:)
*[09:31] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: Zero - can you say that SL will support Naali?
*[09:32] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: it is also a strict requirement for games and other apps - they must be able to implement their own camera codes etc
*[09:32] [[User: Raz Welles|Raz Welles]]: I want to spend more time in Naali but I have a hard time navigating any vw without the sl camera, I've been spoiled ^^;
*[09:32] [[User: Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: <--- Needs to go afk for half hour - thanks for coming RealXtend devs!! please dont' forgot to arrange next meeting :)
*[09:32] [[User: Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: LOL --
*[09:32] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: thanks for interest Imaze :)
*[09:33] [[User: Raz Welles|Raz Welles]]: take care Imaze :)
*[09:33] [[User: Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: I think we have published quite a bit about our support of 3rd party viewers
*[09:33] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
*[09:33] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: That comes back to policy
*[09:33] Techwolf Lupindo lol
*[09:33] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Presumably we can add camera modes. It's common in 3D worlds to have many. Dunno why SL only has one, or two is Mouselook is a mode.
*[09:33] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: if*
*[09:34] [[User: Raz Welles: Morgaine|Raz Welles: Morgaine]]: maybe we can even split the screen into four views for building :P
*[09:34] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: SLish camera does spoil people as alt-caming is nice :)
*[09:34] [[User: Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: flycam too
*[09:34] [[User: Raz Welles|Raz Welles]]: ReX supports RTT, could probably do it with inworld scripting xD
*[09:34] [[User: Zero Linden: Josh (now sitting next to me in RL) says|Zero Linden: Josh (now sitting next to me in RL) says]]: Sorry 'bout the spam --- and he and I are off to RL meeting
*[09:34] [[User: Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: later all
*[09:34] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: one way of seeing reX and interoperability and standards is that reX is about quickly implementing all kinds of features we need for powerful apps
*[09:34] [[User: Raz Welles|Raz Welles]]: take caer Zero
*[09:34] [[User: Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: thanks Python for all the great info and good work
*[09:34] [[User: Latif Khalifa whispers|Latif Khalifa whispers]]: laters
*[09:34] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: hopefully later we get standards and interop for that
*[09:34] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: There is certainly a market for more capable viewers that speak to LL servers, but I hope that does not hamstring the development of exciting new ideas that require other servers.
*[09:34] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: thanks for interest Zero!
*[09:34] [[User: Omegadon Aeon|Omegadon Aeon]]: cya zero
*[09:34] [[User: Melchizedek Blauvelt|Melchizedek Blauvelt]]: bye Zero, bye Josh
*[09:34] [[User: Nexii Malthus|Nexii Malthus]]: k, cya Zero, thanks for attending
*[09:35] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Python|Morgaine Dinova: Python]]: I just noticed today that in Naali you support the normal MMO mouse navigation mode, hold down right-mouse to pan. Woot! That rocks!
*[09:35] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: I can extrapolate what LL will support quite easily.
*[09:35] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: No they won't.
*[09:35] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: lol
*[09:35] [[User: Pforce Digfoot: Morgaine|Pforce Digfoot: Morgaine]]: yeah i miss that here when using naali all the time :)
*[09:35] [[User: Pforce Digfoot: Morgain|Pforce Digfoot: Morgain]]: ctrl+tab for free camera fly mode
*[09:35] [[User: Raz Welles: Pforce|Raz Welles: Pforce]]: click and drag on your nametag
*[09:35] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: Aleric - that's what I'm thinking too
*[09:35] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: same to go back to avatar
*[09:35] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: If they do something, they will do it behind closed doors, developed all by themselves. Nothing will be used from naali.
*[09:35] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Pforce|Morgaine Dinova: Pforce]]: super :-)
*[09:36] [[User: Pforce Digfoot: Raz|Pforce Digfoot: Raz]]: ok so its left click here :)
*[09:36] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: so if reX added meshes and html-on-prim two years ago, and SL has them now, if reX gets custom data and functionality this autumn, perhaps SL gets it in 3 years too :)
*[09:36] [[User: Raz Welles|Raz Welles]]: hehe yes
*[09:36] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: name tag or any other part of your avie
*[09:36] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: LOL, Python
*[09:36] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: haha
*[09:36] [[User: Mikko Panacek|Mikko Panacek]]: :D
*[09:36] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: we don't run a service so we don't have the inertia SL has
*[09:36] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Note that HTML-on-a-prim is different from The-Entire-Internet-on-a-prim-viruses-and-all
*[09:36] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Well, Linden "support" for open source apparently means closing it. So, bye bye SL, hello reX+Opensim.
*[09:36] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: or alt click ANY part in-world and drag...
*[09:37] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: i totally respect them for what they do, it is not easy to run a service that is in production with a lot of users etc
*[09:37] [[User: Raz Welles|Raz Welles]]: I think the two serve distinct exclusive purposes to a degree :)
*[09:37] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: is much easier to add all kinds of cool feats like we can do, when we are not hosting worlds where everything has to keep working
*[09:37] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: yes & make money - that was a big hurdle in 2000
*[09:38] [[User: Raz Welles: Python|Raz Welles: Python]]: Is there a public sandbox where people can meet up?
*[09:38] [[User: Raz Welles|Raz Welles]]: are there any kind of ReX office hours :P
*[09:38] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: They could add more than they do. Part of it is not messing with their business model.
*[09:38] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Python or Pforce, can you tel uss about the state of things for those of us who only use Linux?
*[09:38] [[User: Pforce Digfoot: Raz|Pforce Digfoot: Raz]]: we have two demoservers that pop up to you when you start Naali, you can go there without creating avatars
*[09:38] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: but devs hang on IRC more than there :)
*[09:38] [[User: Raz Welles|Raz Welles]]: ahh I see
*[09:38] [[User: andrea Hyandi|andrea Hyandi]]: hi
*[09:38] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: at the same time we need to add these features too so can make money by deploying apps to customers (in the different companies that use reX. the core dev is now publicly funded by the city of Oulu, state of Finland tech fund etc)
*[09:38] [[User: Raz Welles|Raz Welles]]: btw i still need someone to help me with exporting an av :P I got a simple one runing but
*[09:38] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: those are just opensim+modrex with no authentication needed
*[09:39] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Yes, I see lots of people on realxtend-dev.
*[09:39] [[User: Raz Welles|Raz Welles]]: trouble otherwise
*[09:39] [[User: Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: what irc channel?
*[09:39] [[User: Raz Welles|Raz Welles]]: freendoe #realxtend-dev
*[09:39] [[User: Raz Welles|Raz Welles]]: *freenode
*[09:39] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Morgaine, I use only Linux now also for daily Naali dev work
*[09:39] [[User: andrea Hyandi|andrea Hyandi]]: hi
*[09:39] [[User: andrea Hyandi|andrea Hyandi]]: wow
*[09:40] [[User: andrea Hyandi|andrea Hyandi]]: many people
*[09:40] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Python|Morgaine Dinova: Python]]: excellent!
*[09:40] [[User: Mikko Panacek|Mikko Panacek]]: and for non-tech conversation there is #realXtend
*[09:40] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Works for me on Linux too
*[09:40] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: hello everybody
*[09:40] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: so to kind of wrap up
*[09:40] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: second Groupies shift coming in
*[09:40] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Let me put in a plug for responsiveness. I reported a bug in the meshmerizer code two days ago. It was fixed this morning.
*[09:40] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Naali is not at least for us primarily about replicating SL
*[09:41] [[User: andrea Hyandi|andrea Hyandi]]: lol
*[09:41] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: but more a tool to make also other kinds of apps, with another featureset
*[09:41] Morgaine Dinova looks for a link to the Naali binary for Linux (can't quite get it to compile yet, getting there)
*[09:41] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: where you can use meshes to build, any kind of mesh (e.g. a fish like in one of the demos) as the av / characters etc
*[09:41] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: morgaine unfortunately we dont provide linux binaries yet, but good build tools in trunk/tools
*[09:42] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: but it also works to vanilla opensim/sl and has potential to become an alternative viewer there, where you can e.g. easily add new own ui widgets using qt
*[09:42] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: irc will give you help if you get hickups building
*[09:42] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Pforce|Morgaine Dinova: Pforce]]: no problem, I'll get it sorted, it's just your odd dependencies
*[09:42] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: Most things that could be improved here (minor changes that I could code in a day, but with major impacts) require protocol and server changes :(
*[09:42] [[User: Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: is anybody working on a better solid modeler than the SL prim system?
*[09:42] [[User: Pforce Digfoot: Morgaine|Pforce Digfoot: Morgaine]]: yeah thats the biggest hurdle now on unix systems :(
*[09:42] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: are there plans to add SL-style avatar support for connecting to SL and compativility with Linden viewer users of OpenSim?
*[09:42] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: building the deps i mean
*[09:42] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Morgaine, yah on ubuntu i use the build script that is in tools/ dir in naali svn, gets and builds the deps
*[09:42] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: what would be cool is a VM image of a working build environment for linux
*[09:42] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: It's all fun... until you need to change the server, and can't cause you can't touch it
*[09:43] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Latif, I saw mention that Melanie was working on that.
*[09:43] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Latif, yes like Mojito said Mel (an opensim dev) is interested in that
*[09:43] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Mojito, i meant would Naali be able to render SL style avatars
*[09:43] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Latif, that exactly
*[09:43] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: cool
*[09:43] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: Aleric - you can't touch the SL server - but no reason why you can extend its services via co-servers
*[09:44] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Well, when I connect to osgrid with it now, I just see the default jack.mesh
*[09:44] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: can't :) I mean
*[09:44] [[User: Pforce Digfoot: Mojito|Pforce Digfoot: Mojito]]: yes due its not done yet :)
*[09:44] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: in the current rex core dev companies we have never done anything with SL nor have SL avatars etc. so hasn't been a priority for us
*[09:44] [[User: Aleric Inglewood: Kaiser|Aleric Inglewood: Kaiser]]: explain?
*[09:44] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: we dont know her timetables to start working on it also
*[09:44] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: but it is open source, anyone can implement what they need
*[09:44] [[User: Nyx Linden|Nyx Linden]]: If you guys have any questions about the SL avatar definition, etc please let me know :)
*[09:44] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Pforce, i think she's actually starting tomorrow or so
*[09:44] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Thats the best part
*[09:44] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: if a viewer follows the browser model you can have multiple servers
*[09:45] [[User: Pforce Digfoot: Toni|Pforce Digfoot: Toni]]: oh ok, thats great
*[09:45] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Nyx, the tamer of avatar_lad.xml xD
*[09:45] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: i was wondering why she was building naali last night :)
*[09:45] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Nyx, oh, cool, we basically don't know anything about it :)
*[09:45] [[User: Aleric Inglewood: Kaiser|Aleric Inglewood: Kaiser]]: I'd instantly fork my own viewer (because it's easy to add viewer-viewer extensions), but that won't work either cause most things aren't fun until all your friends have the same experience, and they don't use all the same vieewr :p
*[09:45] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: I actually have something like that working now
*[09:45] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: yeah as we cant look at the source, melanie knows a way to reverse engineer it or something :)
*[09:45] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Even if you did know Melanie's timetable, it wouldn't make sense since she's alien and works in a totally different spacetime ^_^
*[09:46] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Pforce, or perhaps Nyx can just tell how it works :)
*[09:46] [[User: Nyx Linden|Nyx Linden]]: :D
*[09:46] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: point to specs or some def files if there is something we could use
*[09:46] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Dahlia here made SL avatar renderer for Blender
*[09:46] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Rob Linden gave me carte blanche a year or so ago to document any and all GPL viewer protocols on the wiki under teh CC license.
*[09:46] [[User: Raz Welles|Raz Welles]]: :o
*[09:46] [[User: Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: Pforce, it is a sad day that LL close up the viewer, cna't look at the soruce now.
*[09:47] [[User: Raz Welles|Raz Welles]]: I thought 2.0 was open
*[09:47] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Saijanai, so that would cover the avatar?
*[09:47] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: You can look at SnowGlobe. If you really WANT to. :)
*[09:47] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: I would assume anything in the GPL code.
*[09:47] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: i see many nice avatars here so totally understand why the support would be good
*[09:47] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: in reX the av is basically just a mesh, any mesh
*[09:47] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: Ie, ... I'd add bits to the baked avatar skin (in the unused parts) to add almost arbitrary data regarding avatars.... You can add more data to prims by changing their 'description' field.. etc.
*[09:48] [[User: Raz Welles: Python|Raz Welles: Python]]: sorry my question keeps getting buried, is there anyone I can contact to talk about avatar export in depth?
*[09:48] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: and i've been assuming that the SL av is also a mesh in the end so it might just work
*[09:48] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Part of how we look is the huge market in quality clothes in SL. And an even bigger market in crappy clothes.
*[09:48] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: obviously would need the deforms then too
*[09:48] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: Other things really need support from LL though... I want a few bit added to objects that can always be toggled by the owner, EVEN if the object is no-mod.
*[09:49] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: ok i guess i've pretty much said what wanted
*[09:49] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: Aleric - I agree - SL has the address for virtual worlds
*[09:49] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Feel free to stay aournd and chat. OUr normal groupies meeting time just started
*[09:49] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: am always interested in hearing new use cases and requirements
*[09:49] [[User: andrea Hyandi|andrea Hyandi]]: bye
*[09:49] [[User: BlueWall Slade|BlueWall Slade]]: https://lists.berlios.de/pipermail/opensim-dev/2010-March/008415.html
*[09:49] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: and if there are questions still we can answer
*[09:50] [[User: Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Thank you, rex folks. This is very cool and exciting! =:O
*[09:50] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: I've done surface texture baking bits for libomv, and know pretty well how that bit works. so if it ever comes to that I could help out with it
*[09:50] [[User: Hirmuinen Hirvi|Hirmuinen Hirvi]]: Ok it appears I missed the meeting
*[09:50] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: and extending the SL object set keeps the base implementation safe for other SL'rs
*[09:50] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: for avatars that is
*[09:50] [[User: andrea Hyandi|andrea Hyandi]]: bye to all
*[09:50] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: tc
*[09:50] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: I'm keeping a transcript, Himuinen
*[09:50] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Hirvi, I think there is a log
*[09:50] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: We started early to accomodater the Finnish visitors
*[09:50] [[User: Hirmuinen Hirvi|Hirmuinen Hirvi]]: I suppose Toni Alatalo from realXtend made it?
*[09:50] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: yes
*[09:51] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: waves
*[09:51] Saijanai Kuhn at Python
*[09:51] [[User: Hirmuinen Hirvi|Hirmuinen Hirvi]]: yes and due to bus strike and network outage I was late
*[09:51] [[User: Raz Welles|Raz Welles]]: take caer python :)
*[09:51] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Hirmuinen Hirvi is Antti Ilomäki, the project manager of realXtend :)
*[09:51] [[User: Hirmuinen Hirvi|Hirmuinen Hirvi]]: yup
*[09:51] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: woo hoo
*[09:51] [[User: Raz Welles|Raz Welles]]: later pforce :)
*[09:51] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: the only person in the world who is employed by the project itself
*[09:51] [[User: Nexii Malthus|Nexii Malthus]]: lol
*[09:51] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: we others work in different companies and are hired to do dev work
*[09:51] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: just a reminder that groupies meeting normally starts now so we have at least an hour or 2 to continue this
*[09:51] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: afk a few
*[09:51] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: For money???
*[09:51] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: or the companies are contracted
*[09:52] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: yes rex core dev is mostly funded
*[09:52] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: see u raz!
*[09:52] [[User: Raz Welles|Raz Welles]]: :) tc!
*[09:52] [[User: Hirmuinen Hirvi|Hirmuinen Hirvi]]: mostly yes
*[09:52] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: also the idea in the companies is to use it for business, and the use cases there typically have new reqs, which motivate core improvements too
*[09:53] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: that's the way to do it :)
*[09:53] [[User: Nexii Malthus|Nexii Malthus]]: Impressive setup
*[09:53] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Ah, so the potential user companies also contribute effort?
*[09:53] [[User: Hirmuinen Hirvi|Hirmuinen Hirvi]]: the core work is funded for the most part and the work is done in the smallish local companies who answered the founder's call
*[09:53] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn: a reminder|Saijanai Kuhn: a reminder]]: anyone who doesn't have AW Groupies membership and wants it should IM me for an invite
*[09:53] [[User: Hirmuinen Hirvi|Hirmuinen Hirvi]]: basically yes
*[09:54] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Mojito, yes and also we are funded for the work to cover the costs, we are not making huge profits by devving rex
*[09:54] [[User: Mirt Tenk|Mirt Tenk]]: ty all, tc
*[09:54] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: the idea being that by devving rex we get like an own engine
*[09:54] [[User: Hirmuinen Hirvi|Hirmuinen Hirvi]]: the project is very open, though, and we wish to have as many contributors as possible
*[09:54] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: I can see Rex being used as an interop later to move from grid to grid and grid hybrids. That will not only extend the tech. but also the market reach for VR
*[09:54] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: that we can then use to make games or whatever, that hopefully profits :)
*[09:55] [[User: Hirmuinen Hirvi|Hirmuinen Hirvi]]: the funding's purpose was to accelerate the initial core development and enable the local companies to deploy their applications as soon as possible
*[09:55] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Kaiser, I don't quite follow - could you elaborate?
*[09:55] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: I don't know that SL needs to change really .. its just another server in the larger scope
*[09:55] [[User: Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: Well, I must return to work. Fair winds, all.
*[09:55] [[User: Hirmuinen Hirvi|Hirmuinen Hirvi]]: interoperability is quite important for us
*[09:55] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: sure - ...
*[09:55] [[User: Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: Thanks for the talk and info
*[09:56] Morgaine Dinova waves to Talarus
*[09:56] [[User: Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: reX is meant as a commercial platform then? Cobalt is mostly aimed at research
*[09:56] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: with extensible protocols on server & client .. you don't have to limit your client to a single server at one time ...
*[09:56] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Tapple, it is meant for any kind of use
*[09:56] [[User: Hirmuinen Hirvi|Hirmuinen Hirvi]]: I phoned Toni earlier and asked him to forward questions to my email, I wonder if there was any I could answer already right now?
*[09:56] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Tapple, like apache and firefox, you can do commercial or non-commercial or whatever kind of apps you want
*[09:56] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: you can open multiple sessions on multiple servers & leverage the services on all
*[09:57] [[User: Hirmuinen Hirvi|Hirmuinen Hirvi]]: yes, basically realXtend is intended for pretty much any purpose
*[09:57] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Kaiser, yes, we have thought of that
*[09:57] [[User: Hirmuinen Hirvi|Hirmuinen Hirvi]]: the development companies are the driving force currently and they are focused on their applications
*[09:57] [[User: Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: given that it's MIT licensed, we could use Naali directly in Cobalt perhaps
*[09:57] [[User: Lor Gynoid|Lor Gynoid]]: Are there any aims to provide secure VW, where all traddic etc. is encrypted?
*[09:57] [[User: Hirmuinen Hirvi|Hirmuinen Hirvi]]: the most prominen application field is probably education / training and meetings
*[09:57] [[User: Lor Gynoid|Lor Gynoid]]: traffic*
*[09:58] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Hirmuinen|Morgaine Dinova: Hirmuinen]]: do the development companies hold a veto on reX changes that would compete with their own applications?
*[09:58] [[User: Hirmuinen Hirvi|Hirmuinen Hirvi]]: no
*[09:58] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Tapple, but yes, reX techs and even Naali now at 0.1 is used to deploy apps to customers - it is not a research initiative, but something that needs to develope quickly enough and deliver
*[09:58] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Good answer :-)
*[09:58] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Thanks :-)
*[09:59] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Backish
*[09:59] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: wbish
*[09:59] [[User: Hirmuinen Hirvi|Hirmuinen Hirvi]]: we of course co-operate as much as posible and there's sometimes a lot of work involved in making the kind of compromises everyone can live with
*[09:59] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: lol
*[09:59] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: (lol to Dahlia, not Hirm :p)
*[10:00] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Tapple, you were thinking that Naali could be a Cobalt client? I think an interesting idea and within scope, but am afraid that quite difficult 'cause the archs are different
*[10:00] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: Well, I'm sorry.. but the license problem forces me to not join realxtnd it seems.... I think it's nonsense, because I wouldn't use code or even ideas from snowglobe... but well. I guess I'm out.
*[10:00] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Aleric, personally I think it is nonsense too
*[10:00] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: Aleric - wait six months :)
*[10:01] [[User: Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: well, I am thining mostly as a library for some SL compatability
*[10:01] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Are there any areas of Naali (or Taiga) in which you would especially like new contributors to get an interest in?
*[10:01] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: You would ONLY have a problem if I'd use code that is GPL-ed. Not because I worked on GPL-ed code.
*[10:01] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Morgaine, yes
*[10:01] [[User: Hirmuinen Hirvi|Hirmuinen Hirvi]]: the companies are of course important for us as they provide the brains behind the work, but realXtend is intended to be a mor global thing
*[10:01] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Aleric, do you have some specific ideas of features to implement?
*[10:02] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: I'm trying to figure out wahts to link SL and Cobalt/Croquet. its not as hard as people think. Just requires knowing both architectures better than I do :-)
*[10:02] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: btw - are you guys using MySql for your DB?
*[10:02] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: please say no
*[10:02] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Kaiser, sqlite or mysql, like with opensim usually
*[10:02] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: k
*[10:02] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: For naali? I'd first have to look at the code and see if it can be made more robust. I personally don't like to add new extensions before the current code is robust and can take it.
*[10:02] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: we haven't touched the server side much lately
*[10:02] [[User: Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: I would think it would db agnostic so one can use mysql, postgres, or mssql.
*[10:02] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Aleric, well that you can do
*[10:03] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: But yes, in general I have a LOT of ideas :p .. ALL of which need protocol and server changes
*[10:03] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I was thinking more the modern key/value stores
*[10:03] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Relational model doesn't really fit VWs at all
*[10:03] [[User: Hirmuinen Hirvi|Hirmuinen Hirvi]]: please take a look at the code and tell us what you think, it would be very interesting
*[10:03] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Aleric - give us your criticism and trust we will improve, we are paid to work on it to make it good after all..
*[10:03] [[User: Hirmuinen Hirvi|Hirmuinen Hirvi]]: this whole gpl-thing has been a pain, but I won't go into it now
*[10:03] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: It is only 0.1. The code changes daily
*[10:04] [[User: Hirmuinen Hirvi|Hirmuinen Hirvi]]: yes NAali is very much in development currently
*[10:04] [[User: Hirmuinen Hirvi|Hirmuinen Hirvi]]: the 0.1 build we have out right now is already basically ancient
*[10:04] [[User: Nexii Malthus|Nexii Malthus]]: Is there interest needed in 2D/3D interaction? Kinda my speciality
*[10:04] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Aleric - perhaps start implementing some of those ideas, something that is clearly not copying SL feats, and spend 6 months doing that .. then you can start contributing to any area both in the viewer and server, and make it so that your new apps run on top of them
*[10:04] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: I cannot NOT work on any viewer for 6 months. SL is my life and modding my viewer is a large part of that :/
*[10:04] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Lick touching something?
*[10:05] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: I could at most switch to naali, and THEN stop looking at GPL_ed code :p
*[10:05] [[User: Nexii Malthus|Nexii Malthus]]: Well, like using tools for example, or even crazy stuff like painting textures right in the client, fun stuff
*[10:05] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Aleric, ok I see how the whole stupidity is very tricky for you then
*[10:05] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: Aleric - why not read the docs & write an extension ? you don't have to be core developer
*[10:05] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I'm keen on client-side scripting, which SL doesn't have and which they don't even want to cooperate on. So presumably that's safe for Naali.
*[10:05] [[User: Aleric Inglewood: That is how I started|Aleric Inglewood: That is how I started]]: I wanted to paint my own skin, directly on my avie.
*[10:05] [[User: Pforce Digfoot: Nexii|Pforce Digfoot: Nexii]]: have you worked with Qt
*[10:05] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Yes, and Python is already in there
*[10:05] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: yah Kaiser made a good suggestion to Aleric
*[10:06] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: thats basically our 2D stuff on top of the 3D scene
*[10:06] [[User: Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: GPL does not stop any dev from working on other code. So the restrictions is a complete mystery to me.
*[10:06] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: can u do that now, aleric?
*[10:06] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: you can read Naali all you want, and write your own extensions
*[10:06] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: It could take you a few months just to come up to speed on the whole hting anyway
*[10:06] [[User: Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: back
*[10:06] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: for OpenSim, it's not GPL code, it's LL code
*[10:06] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I need to go get a Qt book
*[10:06] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: wb
*[10:06] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Techwolf|Morgaine Dinova: Techwolf]]: maybe we can talk to Hermuinen about that, outside of this meeting.
*[10:07] [[User: Nexii Malthus|Nexii Malthus]]: Hmm I really liked Qt when I found it originally, wasn't sure what the performance of it was compared to other UI kits
*[10:07] [[User: Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: oo... monsterous moose :P
*[10:07] [[User: Pforce Digfoot: Mojito|Pforce Digfoot: Mojito]]: web API docs well too :)
*[10:07] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Nexii - i believe there is a lot to be done with tools like that. we have terrain heightmap painting in Naali now
*[10:07] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: *work well too
*[10:07] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: It isnt the API. Its how all the bits fit together.
*[10:07] [[User: Aleric Inglewood: Rex|Aleric Inglewood: Rex]]: no, but it caused me to start to look into the code ;) ... of course the first step was then to understand how textures work etc etc... I now have a friend who is learning how to make skins in Modo, he'll make my skin (better) in the end... so I got no real urge anymore to do that.
*[10:08] [[User: Pforce Digfoot: Toni|Pforce Digfoot: Toni]]: its a qimage where the heightmap is rendered, pure qt still
*[10:08] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Morgaine, the Javascript support in Naali for untrusted code / client side scripting is a kind of an orphan still
*[10:08] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: Hirmuinen... ok I'll have a look at the source code... if I can find where to get it ... :) (right now)
*[10:09] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: http://code.google.com/p/realxtend-naali/
*[10:09] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Morgaine, I wrote about the status and some plans for it last week, http://wiki.realxtend.org/index.php/Interpreted_Languages_Working_Group/Javascript_support
*[10:09] [[User: Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: http://code.google.com/p/realxtend-naali/source/browse/#svn/trunk
*[10:09] [[User: Hirmuinen Hirvi|Hirmuinen Hirvi]]: http://wiki.realxtend.org/index.php/Getting_Started_with_Naali#Getting_and_running_Naali
*[10:09] [[User: Nexii Malthus|Nexii Malthus]]: oh my xD
*[10:09] [[User: Hirmuinen Hirvi|Hirmuinen Hirvi]]: hmm guys beat me to it
*[10:09] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: http://wiki.realxtend.org/index.php/Building_Naali_from_source_trunk
*[10:09] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Python have you ever looked at squeak?
*[10:09] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: :)
*[10:09] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Morgaine, actually because there was one person who might have started to work on it, but seems he may have to work on other things.
*[10:10] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Thanks Python
*[10:10] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Saijanai, yes, and I've also talked about it with you on irc :)
*[10:10] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: I kinda remember that... in another incarnation...
*[10:10] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I used to talk to Ryan about client-side scripting back in the rex-NG days
*[10:11] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: Hmm, svn is very slow... getting one file per second
*[10:11] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: google code is sometimes jammed a bit :(
*[10:11] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: this meeting was so popular that it brought google down?
*[10:11] [[User: Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: :P
*[10:11] [[User: Widget Whiteberry|Widget Whiteberry]]: ☆smiles☆
*[10:11] [[User: Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: you and half the people here probably
*[10:11] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: That's because Google don't know how to scale
*[10:11] Morgaine Dinova ducks
*[10:12] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: :D
*[10:12] [[User: Hirmuinen Hirvi|Hirmuinen Hirvi]]: yes all the people downloading Naalis are wrecking havoc on Google
*[10:12] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hehe
*[10:12] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: Naali btw is the Finnish name for an artic fox :)
*[10:12] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: their svn server has been flakey last couple of days
*[10:12] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: we like to use the firefox analogy sometimes
*[10:12] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Nice name, arctic fox
*[10:12] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: cool :)
*[10:12] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: 246 downloads for Naali 0.1 installer (windows) quite nice :)
*[10:12] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: I like it :)
*[10:12] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: about a generic platform
*[10:13] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: like you can make all kinds of apps that run in a webbrowser, make custom UIs using html+js etc
*[10:13] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: handle keypresses and mouse clicks etc. the way that app needs
*[10:13] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: You get to see a pic of the fox on th elogin page
*[10:13] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: SVN was slow for me too last week. From googlecode
*[10:13] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: well - I gotta go ... Just wanted to say I'm very excited about Naali & can't wait to add some new goodies to it
*[10:13] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: in RL there are not that many Naali left here anymore
*[10:14] [[User: Hirmuinen Hirvi|Hirmuinen Hirvi]]: we can't wait to have you add new goodies
*[10:14] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: in the news it said that only 250 or so on the norwegian side, dunno how many in Finland
*[10:14] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: :)
*[10:14] [[User: Hirmuinen Hirvi|Hirmuinen Hirvi]]: and now almost 250 of them have been downloaded
*[10:14] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Python|Morgaine Dinova: Python]]: aww :-(
*[10:14] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: so we have to save those nice animals, and also make the app good :)
*[10:14] [[User: Kaiser Bogomil|Kaiser Bogomil]]: k tc all :)
*[10:14] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: cheers Kaiser
*[10:14] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: hope to see you later somewhere :)
*[10:14] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: tc
*[10:15] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: ok i think i have to leave in 5 mins or so
*[10:15] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: what does EC_ stand for?
*[10:15] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: you can see Naali peeking in our new login UI too ;) http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3589544/ether.png
*[10:15] [[User: Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: I shall go too. thank you python and frinds
*[10:16] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: thanks for interest Tapple
*[10:16] [[User: Pforce Digfoot: Aleric|Pforce Digfoot: Aleric]]: Entity Component
*[10:16] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Thanks for coming everyone. Usual Groupies free for all continues until the last avi TPs
*[10:16] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: any entity can have n amount of ECs that it "is"
*[10:16] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Usually we only disband at 11am, either for OSgrid meeting or Andrew's OH
*[10:16] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: and thanks Saijanai for asking us to come here, seems that was a great idea
*[10:17] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: maybe u guys should make a "naali" group on flicker and post screenshots there:)
*[10:17] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Sai++
*[10:17] Saijanai Kuhn bows
*[10:17] [[User: Hirmuinen Hirvi|Hirmuinen Hirvi]]: yes it was great to be able to attend
*[10:17] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Some screenshots already at rezlxtend
*[10:17] [[User: Hirmuinen Hirvi|Hirmuinen Hirvi]]: even if I was a bit late
*[10:17] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: i think this pic illustrates the E-C idea nicely, http://wiki.realxtend.org/index.php/NG_Design_Document/Viewer_Architecture/Framework#Component_based_World_Object_design
*[10:17] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: Rex blog hopefully will display goodies more in the future
*[10:17] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: it's only 8pm :D
*[10:17] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: i might blog about ether because its not mostly done
*[10:18] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: ether = that new login ui i pasted
*[10:18] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: What time is osgrid meeting?
*[10:18] Latif Khalifa used to fly to Helsinki on regular basis
*[10:18] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: lots of people on flickr. u will attract more attention
*[10:18] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: its late in finland already ;) im still sitting at work
*[10:18] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: so ill be going too now as Toni
*[10:18] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: oh, well 20:18 is late for work :)
*[10:18] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: haha
*[10:18] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: OSgrid meeting is at 11am PST
*[10:18] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: still only seeing svn files being downloaded... Question however ;), is all of the source code thorougly documented with doxygen stuff?
*[10:19] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I will try to attend using Naali, to see how chat works
*[10:19] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: I saw a *.dox pass by
*[10:19] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: well i came to work at 2pm, we dont have too strickt working enviroment here ;)
*[10:19] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Aleric, yes on the doxygen. Some parts more than others
*[10:19] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: real programmers don't work before noon anyway xD
*[10:19] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: i have two small daughters, 5months and 2,5years, and both somewhat ill now .. eating supper and going to sleep soon, so i'll join them now
*[10:19] [[User: Pforce Digfoot: Aleric|Pforce Digfoot: Aleric]]: yes we try to document the code with doxygen, its just not updated that regularly to web
*[10:19] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Look in the rex-viewer/doc folder
*[10:19] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Python, thanks for your time :)
*[10:20] [[User: Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: heippa python
*[10:20] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: I wake up at 1 pm and then turn on my monitor, read email... and THEN get out of bed - lol
*[10:20] [[User: Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: need to attend to RL before OSGrid meeting... bye all, ty Rex ppl :)
*[10:20] [[User: Nexii Malthus|Nexii Malthus]]: aw, cya Python
*[10:20] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Night Night, Python. Thanks for coming and talking about it, it was hugely interesting
*[10:20] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: tc tahlia
*[10:20] [[User: Python Morales|Python Morales]]: thanks for coming and giving us the opportunity, everyone :)
*[10:20] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: You need to run doxygen yourself. Takes a while
*[10:20] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Cyu Dahlia
*[10:20] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: <-- has a 23 inch monitor above his bed... and three monitors on his desk
*[10:20] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: please join us at irc even for idling :) #realxtend-dev @ freenode
*[10:20] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: see you all there
*[10:20] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: dahlia*
*[10:20] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: tc
*[10:21] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: see you Pforce, thanks for coming :)
*[10:21] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: np was fun seeing tech talk :)
*[10:21] [[User: Pforce Digfoot|Pforce Digfoot]]: maybe ill attend other times too
*[10:21] [[User: lufpleh Obstreperous|lufpleh Obstreperous]]: thx Python, Pforce, Hirmuinen
*[10:21] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: cya on IRC pforce
*[10:21] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: *wave*
*[10:22] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Pforce|Morgaine Dinova: Pforce]]: is there a Jabber/XMPP bridge to your IRC channel from Naali?
*[10:22] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: tc all of u that r leaving
*[10:22] [[User: Object|Object]]: Touched.
*[10:22] [[User: Object|Object]]: <-0.87394, 0.47828, 0.08646>
*[10:22] [[User: Hirmuinen Hirvi|Hirmuinen Hirvi]]: No bridge yet to my knowledge
*[10:22] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Dont think so, but Naali has a built in Jabber client. :)
*[10:23] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I seem to remember someone saying that reX did Jabber
*[10:23] [[User: Hirmuinen Hirvi|Hirmuinen Hirvi]]: would be nice if someone added one
*[10:23] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Woohoo!
*[10:23] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: When you open The "IM" menu, what you get is a Jabber client
*[10:23] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: morg, just install irssi already ;)
*[10:23] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: No tie in to inworld groups as far as I know
*[10:23] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Latif|Morgaine Dinova: Latif]]: I have no shortage of local IRC clients. Not gonna happen
*[10:23] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
*[10:24] Widget Whiteberry waves and poofs
*[10:24] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Cya Widget
*[10:24] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: all the fun stuff happens on irc ;)
*[10:24] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I just toss everything into Pidgin at let it figure them out
*[10:24] [[User: Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: anyone knows how this emerald's irc chat is working?
*[10:25] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I reserved my nick with NickServ but now can not remember the password. :(
[10:25] Aleric Inglewood wonders why he never sees emerald devs in meetings.
*[10:25] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: They are all at the bar, getting sloshed
*[10:26] [[User: Hirmuinen Hirvi|Hirmuinen Hirvi]]: ok, judging by the color and thickness of the smoke pouring out of the owen my dinner is just about ready
*[10:27] [[User: Nexii Malthus|Nexii Malthus]]: LOL
*[10:27] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: bon apetit Hirmuinen :)
*[10:27] Zha Ewry grins
*[10:27] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: i guess celebrities don't usually mingle with regular folks:)
*[10:27] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Thanks for coming Hirm :-)
*[10:27] [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: That's a scary image
*[10:27] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: tc
*[10:27] [[User: Lor Gynoid|Lor Gynoid]]: Appliances that use smoke signals. :)
*[10:27] [[User: Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: hi xugu
*[10:27] [[User: Hirmuinen Hirvi|Hirmuinen Hirvi]]: if you have questions you can reach us on the IRC, the mailing lists and my email is antti.ilomaki@realxtend.org
*[10:27] [[User: Hirmuinen Hirvi|Hirmuinen Hirvi]]: see you
*[10:28] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: take care Hirmuinen :)
*[10:28] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Thanks Hirm
*[10:28] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: I have an idea actually, that is viewer-only:
*[10:29] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: Make more than one "friends" tab, in order to split the functionality "See online status" and "friends".
*[10:29] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: Personally, I coul do with three of four separate friends/contacts tabs/lists :/
*[10:29] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I am not ever sure there IS a friends tab yet. I have not looked at the menus much yet
*[10:30] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: And put in folders while you are at it. :)
*[10:30] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: Well... for any viewer.
*[10:30] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: FOlders arequires server support
*[10:30] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: I have loads of non-friends in my friends list that I don't want to see if they sign on and off in my local chat and with blue pop-ups :/
*[10:30] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: yes
*[10:31] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: "Acquantances"
*[10:31] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: but I want to have them in a list, and see if they are online if I do
*[10:31] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: acquaintences?
*[10:31] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Aleric|Morgaine Dinova: Aleric]]: our friends/acquainances/relatives/etc relationships fall into intersecting sets. The SL systems doesn't capture it at all.#
*[10:31] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Just put in folders, and let people organize them how they like
*[10:31] [[User: Imaze Rhiano: well... here is some my ideas|Imaze Rhiano: well... here is some my ideas]]: allow to set keywords that are then emphasized in chat by different color when someone says that in chat (for example I will set keywords "Imaze" and "latex" - when someone says them in any chat group their colour is going to be different from normal text) ...
*[10:32] [[User: Aleric Inglewood: Morgaine|Aleric Inglewood: Morgaine]]: I think that non-intersecting will already improve things a lot?
*[10:32] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Or like IRC beeps when somebody says your name
*[10:32] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: imaze. would u also like to hear a bell ringing:)
*[10:32] [[User: Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: then... allow to hide group chat tab - but still allow that log chat and reopen it anytime
*[10:32] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: I always want a different sound for group messages and real IM's
*[10:32] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Aleric|Morgaine Dinova: Aleric]]: well, *anything* would be an improvement ^_^
*[10:32] [[User: Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: ya... bell ringing would be good :P
*[10:32] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: also*
*[10:32] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Imaze stuff like that is best acomplished with client scripting
*[10:33] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: *Everything* is best accomplished with client-side scripting. haha
*[10:33] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: then you could have all sorts of chat enhancing scripts for highlights, etc
*[10:33] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Folder associations could be done client side. hmm
*[10:33] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: This is the groupies meeting now, right? :)
*[10:33] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: All reX peeps have left I think
*[10:33] [[User: Aleric Inglewood: I'd like to have a poll here|Aleric Inglewood: I'd like to have a poll here]]: who likes the sl2.0 viewer more than what they used before?
*[10:33] [[User: Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: and... then I want to have object preview - for example when I select object in my inventory it is previewed in small window. If that is clothing - then it is viewed as cloth
*[10:33] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Was a great meeting
*[10:33] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: i don't use v2.0
*[10:34] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: nice people, quite refreshing after all the linden meetings ;)
*[10:34] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: i am waiting for 3.0:)
*[10:34] [[User: Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: ... also should work with vendors and such...
*[10:34] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Yes. I feel very energized by this
*[10:34] [[User: Aleric Inglewood: Rex|Aleric Inglewood: Rex]]: never even tried it?
*[10:34] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I dont use 2.0 either.
*[10:34] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I tried it, hated it, then found out about the security holes.
*[10:34] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: I never tried it... don't have to to know I won't like it :p
*[10:34] [[User: Nexii Malthus|Nexii Malthus]]: I used it for a few hours but I still came back to my own client, not even imprudence managed to push me off my own client
*[10:35] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: My impression of V2 after some days use is that it has 3-4 plus points, and everything else is either the same or a regression
*[10:35] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I call it the "Noob Viewer". It was designed to appeal to noobs, and ONLY noobs
*[10:35] [[User: Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: it is not that bad - allways when you change user interface there are going to be haters - even if that is superior UI
*[10:35] [[User: Nexii Malthus|Nexii Malthus]]: Yup, it was designed for noobs, not newbies
*[10:35] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: no thanks. based on how many bad things i heard. i especially don't want to get a headache from flashing IMs:)
*[10:35] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Imaze|Morgaine Dinova: Imaze]]: I'm totally happy with interface changes
*[10:35] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: After a month inworld with that viewer, you will want Emerald
*[10:35] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Build much, Morgaine?
*[10:35] [[User: Nexii Malthus|Nexii Malthus]]: I lost emerald quicker than I lost viewer 2.0 lol
*[10:36] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I've switched back to Imprudence because I couldn't cope with the low speed of V2 in active events. You can't immerse in events with 50 people at 2 FPS or less in V2
*[10:36] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: And the flickering inventory screen is a pain
*[10:37] [[User: Aleric Inglewood: Ok... next question|Aleric Inglewood: Ok... next question]]: As not all of you might know,.. Merov (the main open source coder Linden) took the sl2.0 source code, removed what we aren't allowed to see/use due to license issues or whatever (I have no idea) and did the rebranding (Second Life --> Snowglobe). And released that to use as "Snowglobe 2.0"
*[10:37] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: The UI changes I could cope with fine, I was happy to learn the new UI. The speed is a showstopper though
*[10:37] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: Thus, basically we saw the source code of 2.0
*[10:37] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: What is the case? Not a single bug fix that the open source coders wrote, made it into 2.0
*[10:37] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: And none of the community contributed fixes were in it.
*[10:38] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: exactly
*[10:38] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: So the entire SnowGlobe effort was a wate of everybody's time
*[10:38] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Any idea why LL are hiding that their viewer is closed source?
*[10:38] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: u mean partial source code:)
*[10:38] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: Now we have to do it all again, and they expect us to?
*[10:38] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: *waste
*[10:38] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: I am flabbergasted and don't know what to do :/
*[10:38] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: I want to stop supporting them... stop coding
*[10:38] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Start your 6-month clock today.
*[10:39] [[User: Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: OpenSim "no looking at viewer" code has nothing to do with the license btw
*[10:39] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Notice that LL still won't give a straight answer to Techwolf about V2 sources -- https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/technology/release/blog/2010/03/01/viewer-2-beta-update#cf
*[10:39] [[User: Nexii Malthus|Nexii Malthus]]: Hey, they are very proud of the 50 linden team-effort 2-3 year work, of countless and countless man hours and development work
*[10:39] [[User: Nexii Malthus|Nexii Malthus]]: lol
*[10:39] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: but if the others continue (and some are working their ass off to get everything they did back into SG 2.0) then well.. what would LL learn from that?
*[10:39] [[User: Morgaine Dinova: Aleric|Morgaine Dinova: Aleric]]: there's no point supporting a company that has become closed source and very close to being evil.
*[10:39] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: I'd wait a few weeks before assuming that SG 2 won't have anything from SG1 in it, etc. THe SG team was pretty hardpressed to get SG2 out the door baswed off of the viewer 2 code
*[10:39] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: it seems to be more a problme of gui design, and not of programming
*[10:40] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: But they led us to beleive that fixes going into SG were being percolated back into the real viewer. And they weren't
*[10:41] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Viewer 2 was a closed project. I'm assuming that they couldn'tput anything into it for fear of vialoting licensing, but I am often wrong
*[10:41] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: It's pure speculation, but I think personally that it's a cert that Rob left LL because he could not honestly support the closure of Viewer-2.0 source code, what with being Open Source champion at LL.
*[10:41] [[User: Nexii Malthus|Nexii Malthus]]: They have got a special contributors agreement with snowglobe so that they can put anything into their main viewer if they wish to
*[10:41] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: "spend mor etime with his family"
*[10:41] [[User: Aleric Inglewood: Saijanai|Aleric Inglewood: Saijanai]]: that is not expressed correctly. The snowglobe 2.0 is NOT "based" or "merged" in any way. It's what the internal coders of LL did, and EVERY signal I get points in the direction that they don't even like snowglobe to begin with. We have to start from scratch.
*[10:41] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: he made a point of saying that he wouldbe involved in open source at this next job
*[10:42] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: This is EXACTLY like having an unresponsive "upstream" that doesn't want to communicate or listen to you.
*[10:42] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: There is no difference between emerald and snowglobe, except that we have a few Lindens on the open source team.. but they don't have any say either, and they often give us "sorry, I'm not about that".. and you never get to see or speak with the Linden that does
*[10:42] [[User: Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Not only do they get free engineering effort, but then, they decide not to use it! Tricking everybody into wasting their time
*[10:43] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: The right approach is to fork, in this situation. Normal FOSS procedure. But we don't need to --- we already have multiple forks. I like Imprudence, especially.
*[10:43] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: And meanwhile, support and work on Naali too.
*[10:43] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: Yes... I don't want to fork unless I can get every current developer in the SG team with me... and with a quick poll, that isn't going to work.
*[10:44] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: What's going to happen with Emerald?
*[10:44] [[User: Nexii Malthus|Nexii Malthus]]: Indeed, Naali really needs some leverage and help where we can.
*[10:44] [[User: Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I *DON'T* see Emerald devs knuckling down to removing code that LL doesn't like.
*[10:44] [[User: Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: if ll were to put some of the tools from emerald into the main viewer, is possible that some texture creators would blow a fuse:)
*[10:44] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-levine-vwrap-clientcap-00.txt client-side services!'
*[10:45] [[User: Aleric Inglewood|Aleric Inglewood]]: I think emerald will be left alone until it was proven in practise that LL can get rid of NeilLife and CryoLife and copybot first. Then they will start to put increasing pressure on emerald to do exactly what they want.
*[10:46] [[User: Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: So ending the transcript

[[Category:Grid_Interoperability_Chat_Logs]]
[[Category:AW_Groupies_Transcripts]]
[[Category:MMOX]]

AW Groupies

2010-03-02T19:05:16Z

Saijanai Kuhn: /* 2010 meetings */

=Purpose=
Serious technical discussion about Linden Lab's [[Architecture Working Group|Architecture Working Group (AWG)]]. "AW Groupies" is an unofficial, Resident-operated group, though most (all?) members also participate in the AWG.

Invite only (apply in-world to [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]), but the criterion is simple. Show up and contribute to the AWG, at [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]'s office hours, or on the Wiki, or on SL-Dev or in the [irc://irc.freenode.net/#pyogp irc channel] for the [[Pyogp/Client_Lib|Python test client]].

=Activities=
The [[AW_Groupies#Architecture_Working_Group_meetings|main AWG meeting]] is held annually or semi-annually.
We now [[AW_Groupies#In-World_Meetings|meet up to 8 times a week in-world]], counting AW Groupies meeting, Zero's office hours, Which's office hours, Enus's office hours, Whump's office hours and the [[Pyogp#In_World_Meetings|pygop daily meetings]].

Our main focus these days is on the [[Open Grid Protocol]], the [[Open_Grid_Public_Beta]] and the [[Pyogp|pyogp Python test harness]] for protocol testing.

Also members are quite active on the wiki and in the SLDEV mailing list.

A public SVN repository is open to all AW Groupies members here:
* http://openmv.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/archwg/

Contact anyone with root on openmv.org for an account if you are in the AW Groupies group in-world.

==Architecture Working Group meetings==
* [[AWG_Meeting_1|AWG I annual meeting transcript, participants' responses, etc]]
* [[AWG_Meeting_2|AWG II annual meeting transcript, video, participants' responses, etc]]

==In-World Meetings==
===AW Groupies meeting===
Weekly meeting times are:
* '''Mondays''' -------

* '''Tuesdays''' ------ 9:30 AM SLT at [http://slurl.com/secondlife/ThorneBridgeTown/156/129/25 Zha's IBM Island at ThorneBridgeTown] (weekly AWG meeting)
* ------------------ FIRST TUESDAY of the month ONLY: 1 PM SLT at [http://slurl.com/secondlife/Grasmere/171/112/27 Zero Linden's office hours at Grasmere]
* ------------------ Noon SLT [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies#OpenSim__meeting| Open Sim Meeting]

* '''Wednesdays''' -- Suspended until further notice: 1:30 PM SLT @ [http://slurl.com/secondlife/ambleside/228/244/25/?title=Whump%20Linden%27s%20Office Whump Linden's Office Hours] (main meeting for public grid open beta)

* '''Thursdays''' ----- 11 AM SLT at [http://slurl.com/secondlife/Beaumont/149/44/24 Which Linden's office hours at Beaumont] (often AWG-related these days)
* '''Fridays''' --------- 1 PM SLT [http://slurl.com/secondlife/Longfellow/99/97/28 Enus Linden's Office Hours] (starring PyOGP and [[Pyogp#Pic_of_the_Moment|a cast of several bots]])
:
Meetings are scheduled via the "[http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com SL AW Groupies" google calendar]" (though the above schedule is generally more accurate).

* [http://www.google.com/calendar/feeds/pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic XML]
* [http://www.google.com/calendar/ical/pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics ICal]
* Calendar ID: pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4@group.calendar.google.com
* [http://www.google.com/calendar/render?cid=pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com Add to your Google Calendar]

====Meeting Agendas====

Each meeting should have an agenda --- which will be distributed via
* google calendar entry
* in-world notice to the SL "AW Groupies" group
* the [[AW Groupies In-World Meeting Agenda]] wiki page

===OpenSim meeting===
* Tuesdays/Saturdays noon SLT, at Wright Plaza sim in OSGrid. [http://osgrid.org/index.php?page=home&btn=1 Registration Page]

Set [[Client_parameters|client command line options]] to:
:-loginuri http://osgrid.org:8002
:-loginpage http://osgrid.org/loginscreen.php
:-helperuri http://osgrid.org/

===Chat Logs===

Chat logs of the in-world meetings are published and accessible via the links below:

====2007 meetings====
:* September: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/2007-09-28 | 28]]
:* October: [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-01 | 1]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-05 | 5]] [[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2007_Oct_09|9 --Zero's office]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-16| 16]]
:* November: [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-06 | 6]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-13 | 13]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-20| 20]]
====2008 meetings====
:* January: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-01-08|08]]
:*February: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-02-19|19]]
:*April: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-08|08]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-22|22]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-29|29]]
:*May: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-05-20|20]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-05-27|27]]
:*June: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-03|03]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-10|10]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-17|17]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-24|24]]
:*July: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-01|01]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-08| 08]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-15|15]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-22|22]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-29|29]]
:*August: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-05|05]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-12|12]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-19|19]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-26|26]]
:* September [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-09|9]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-16|16]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-23|23]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-30|30]]
:* October [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-07|7]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-14|14]] [[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_October_14|14 --Zero's O.H.]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-28|28]]
:* November [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-11-11|11]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-11-18|18]]
:* December [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-09|9]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-16|16]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-23|23]]
====2009 meetings====
:*January [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-06|6]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-13|13]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-20|20]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-27|27]]
:*February [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-03|3]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-10|10]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-17|17]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-24|24]]
:*March [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-03-03|3]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-03-10|10]]
:*April [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-07|7]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-14|14]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-28|28]]
:*June [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-06-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-06-16|16]]
:*July [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-07-21|21]]
:*September [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-09-15|15]]
:*October [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-10-20|20]]
====2010 meetings====
:*March [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-03-02|2]]

*
* [[MMOX#Chat_logs|MMOX chat logs]] -- in-world transcripts with non-SL/Opensim participants
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Grid_Interoperability_Chat_Logs All Grid Interoperability chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:AW_Groupies_Transcripts All AW Groupies chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Pyogp_Transcripts All Pyogp chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Open_Grid_Public_Beta_Transcripts All Open Grid Public Beta Transcripts]
*
* [[User:Zero_Linden#Transcripts_of_previous_office_hours|Zero Linden's Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Which_Linden|Which Linden's Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Enus_Linden| Enus Linden Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Whump_Linden| Whump Linden Office Hour Transcripts]]
*
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=chat+log OpenSim chat logs]
* [[Mono/2008-04-04 | mono beta meeting discussion of het-grid]]

(if you post chat logs, you might want to use the [[User:Dr_Scofield/logtransform|sllog2wiki perl script]] to turn them into a more readable wiki table format ready to copy & paste into the chat log page)

Chat logs of AWGroupies meetings should be summarized on the wiki.

==Viewpoint Advocacy Groups==

[[Viewpoint Advocacy Groups]] - groups to focus on specific requirements.
=== AWG-specific VAGs===

* [[Core Grid Services, Protocols, and Structures VAG]]
* [[Event Scalability VAG]]
* [[Geometry and Physics VAG]]
* [[Live Performances VAG]]
* [[Quality Assurance VAG]]
* [[Scalability VAG]]
=== AWG-related VAGs===
* [[Map_API_VAG]]
* [[Multi-Process Client VAG -- draft]]

=Work-In-Progress=

Work-in-progress wiki pages are architecture pages that are (as the name implies ;-)) work in progress. Once the group has reached consensus that a particular topic is "good-to-go" we'll graduate that page to the [[Architecture Working Group|main AWG page]].

==General Concerns==
* [[Scoping]]
* [[Architecture Working Group Glossary|Glossary]]
* [[Use Cases]]
===Open Grid Protocol (OGP)===
====Linden Pages====

====User Pages====

==Communications==
* [[Initial CAPS seed]]
* [[AWG initial flows]]
* [[AWG flows login]]

* [[Mudata]]
* [[Streamlet]]
===Documenting current protocols===
* [[Pyogp|Python test harness for OGP]]
** [[User:Which_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_May_22| Which Linden office hours 22 May 2008]]
====AWG and citizen pages====
* [[Current_login_protocols]]
* [[Current_Sim_Capabilities]]
* [[Example_protocol_code]]
* [[Hegemons_Login_Analysis#Very_simple_C.23__server]]
* [[User:Gareth_Ellison/Supergrid|Litesim grid interop]]
* [[EventQueueGet_CAP| Event Queue Get CAP]]

====Linden Lab pages====
* [[Service_Disruptions|"Satellite's Eye" view of the Second Life architecture from a service disruption POV]]
* [[Message_System_and_Capabilities]]
* [[Viewer_Authentication]]
* [[Viewer_Architecture]]
* [[Protocol]]
* [[LLSD]]
* [[Certified_HTTP_Escrow]]
* [[ImprovedInstantMessage]]
* [[Client_parameters|client command line parameters and stuff]]

====libsecondlife reference pages====
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Login Login page]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Protocol_%28network%29 Protocol page]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Category:Packets packets index]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Movement Movement]

====opensim reference pages====
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Grid_Architecture_Diagram opensim grid architecture diagram]
* [http://opensimulator.org/images/3/3c/OGS1Login_Sequence.jpg login diagram (same general sequence as current LL login)]

=== Future Protocols===
* [[Second_Life_Login_API_Strawman]]
:deprecated in favor of:
* [[Open Grid Protocol]]
** [[SLGOGP_Teleport_Strawman]]
*[[Architecture_Working_Group#Design_Documents | Ongoing next generation protocols documentation effort by Linden Lab]]

=== Possible future directions ===
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenID| OpenID A decentralized single sign-on system]
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yadis| Yardis A digital identity protocol]

==Asset Security and Trust==
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Dale_Innis/Asset_handling_in_OGP Asset Handling in OGP]
* [[Protecting content in an open grid]]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Infinity_Linden/OGP_Trust_Model OGP Trust Model]

==Scaling Issues==
* [[Brainstorming#ANALYSIS:_Region_Subdivision_as_a_scaling_method| Region Subdivision]]
* [[Brainstorming#ANALYSIS:_Scalability_through_reverse_proxies:_the_paravirtual_grid| Reverse Proxies]]
* [[AWG Scalability through per-resident subdivision of the Grid| Resident Subdivision]]
===Group IM===
* [[Message_Queue_Evaluation_Notes| Which Linden's message queue evaluation notes]]

==Other==
* [[Use_Cases#Extended_Capability_Clients|Extended Capability Clients]]

=Thinking-in-Progress=

* Have a look and contribute to the [[Brainstorming|brainstorming]] page.

* It's early days on the [[Multi-Process Client VAG -- draft]], but we would highly appreciate input to help with design choices and direction.
==Misc User Pages==
* Have an AWG idea? Don't know where in the wiki it should be indexed? Make sure that folks can find it by adding it to the [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:AW_Groupies_User_Pages AW_Groupies_User_Pages] Add: <nowiki>'[[Category:AW Groupies User Pages]]'</nowiki> to the end of your user page.

=External Resources=

Stuff of interest to or in connection with the [[AW Groupies]] or the [[Architecture Working Group]]:

* [[Developer_communication_tools|Developer Communication Tools (Linden Lab)]]
* [[SLDev|SLDev Main Page]]
* [[Open_Grid_Public_Beta]]
* [[Pyogp]] {Linden Labs/ AWG Python-based protocols testing library)
*
* [http://openmv.org/ OpenMetaverse Home]
**[http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Main_Page libsecondlife (libsl) homepage]
**[http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page opensim homepage]
**[http://openviewer.org openviewer homepage]
*[http://www.osgrid.org OSGrid: open/non-profit OpenSim based grid]
* [http://www.realxtend.org/ realxtend homepage]
*
* [http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/22428.wss IBM PR re: AWG]

==Second Life Viewers==
Various viewers compatible with Second Life.

::*Note: the "Derived 3rd-party clients" page includes a few non GPL viewers plus some hybrids. I'll try to come up with a better way to index this stuff. [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]
::*Yeah, that redirect of "Alternate_viewers" to "Downloads" is nuts, and the "Downloads" page itself seems to have to have a variety of things bundled together --- it needs splitting. But don't split it by license, that's precisely what I sought to eliminate in this section's re-org. It makes no sense to classify clients by license, since GPL'd clients don't necessarily have anything to do with Linden's code, just like BSD clients don't necessarily have anything to do with libomv. It does make sense to keep a list of Linden-derived clients though, since they're all more alike than not alike, and share both code and license encumbrance. [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]] 01:28, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

===Viewers based on the Linden Lab GPL code (C++)===

*[http://secondlife.com/support/downloads.php Main Second Life viewer/client]
:The main (official) Second Life viewer, produced by Linden Lab with the help of patches submitted by the community, and available for Linux, Mac and Windows.

*[[Snowglobe|Snowglobe]]

:A new version of the Second Life client in a public repository where Linden Lab permits direct committing from select community members alongside daily Linden work. There is also a new build system to keep this version continuously building when new submissions are received, with new builds available to everyone. This version will become available as an alternative Linden download alongside the main SL client, once it is sufficiently stable.

*[[Alternate_viewers|Derived 3rd-party clients]] (''currently links to a mixed "Downloads" page, to be fixed'')
:A large list of clients (not necessarily 3D) developed in the free and open-source community using GPL code from the above two official viewers.

===Viewers based on the libomv/libsl code (C#)===

* [http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/idealistviewer/ Idealist]
:IdealistViewer is a new cross-platform viewer based on the Irrlicht engine, PrimMesher, and LibOpenmetaverse. It can either use the Second Life protocols as provided by LibOpenmetaverse or the MXP protocol. Since it uses the Irrlicht engine it can simultaneously display prim/sculptie content and objects and animated meshes/avatars from a wide variety of sources such as Collada, .OBJ, DirectX, and Blitz3D files. It is not derived from the LL GPL viewer and is made available under BSD style licensing. It is designed to work with OpenSimulator but may also work with Second Life. It is written in the C# language.

* [http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/lookingglass/ LookingGlass]
:LookingGlass viewer is a modular viewer with pluggable communication and rendering engines. Initial communication plugin uses LibOpenMetaverse and the initial rendering plugin uses PrimMesher and Ogre. It is written in C# and BSD licensed. Home site at http://lookingglassviewer.org/ .

===Viewers based on other libraries (python, C, etc)===

* [[Pyogp]]
: Pyogp is an open source project between Linden Lab and the Architecture Working Group (AWG) to support testing the (Open Grid Protocol (OGP). Written in Python, Pyogp will consist initially of a client library and test functionality to enable testing OGP-enabled virtual worlds such as Second Life and compatible OpenSim implementations. These components will expand as the effort matures. Pyogp is released under the Apache v2 license.

==Mailing Lists==
* [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo List of Linden Lab mailing lists]
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sldev SLDEV] Main mailing list for SL developers
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gridnauts gridnauts] Mailing list for participants in Open Grid Public Beta
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pyogp PyOGP] Mailing List for Python-based client library and test harness for the Open Grid Protocols
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Resources#Mailing_Lists libsecondlife]
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page opensim]
* [http://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/openviewer-dev openviewer]

==IRC==
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#opensl
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#opensl-jira (real time updates of entries to jira.secondlife.com)
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#opensl-svn (updates of the the public SVN)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#opensim * irc://irc.freenode.net/#opensim-dev
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#libomv * irc://irc.efnet.net/#libomv-dev
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#openviewer * irc://irc.freenode.net/#openviewer-dev
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#realxtend (Finnish language but can handle English if needed)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#pyogp (Python test harness/pyogp Second LIfe library irc)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#gridnauts (Open Grid Public Beta irc)

==Forums==
* [http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend| realXtend google forum]

==Capabilities==

* [http://www.cap-lore.com/CapTheory/index.html Capabilities theory and practice]
* [http://wiki.erights.org/wiki/Zooko%27s_triangle Zook's Triangle index] -- short list of interesting articles about naming and capabilties
* [http://www.cs.washington.edu/homes/levy/capabook/ Capability-based Systems by Henry Levy] --online copy of 1984 book on early implementations of capabilities systems
* [http://www.erights.org/ E language home] [https://www.cypherpunks.to/erights/ E language home mirror] [http://wiki.erights.org/ E wiki] --computer language dedicated to handling distributed trust issues
** [https://www.cypherpunks.to/erights/elib/capability/index.html Capability Computation]
** irc://irc.freenode.net/#erights
** [http://www.eros-os.org/mailman/listinfo/e-lang E language mailing list]
* [http://www.eros-os.org/mailman/listinfo/cap-talk mailing list for capability systems]
* [http://mscheffler.wordpress.com/2008/01/20/diploma/ blog and thesis on caps in virtual worlds Martin Scheffler]
* [http://homepage.mac.com/kpreid/elang/den.html Cap-based MUD by Kevin Reid] --written in E
* [http://www.fudco.com/chip/lessons.html discussion of ancient (Commodore 64!) video game that used capabilities]

==Misc==

* [http://blog.signpostmarv.name/2008/07/29/non-unique-region-names-within-the-confines-of-a-single-grid-yay-or-nay/ non-unique region names within the confines of a single grid, yay or nay ?]
* [http://blog.signpostmarv.name/2008/01/04/map-api-in-new-location/ discussion of new Map API and related issues]
* [http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source Open Source Portal] --index to all things Open Source for Linden Lab

=Members=

Founder [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]

[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]

[[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]

[[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]

[[User:Dr Scofield|Dr Scofield]]

[[User:Burhop Piccard|Burhop Piccard]]

[[User:Vicero Lambert|Vicero Lambert]]

[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]

[[User:Silicon Plunkett|Silicon Plunkett]]

[[User:Dale Innis|Dale Innis]]

[[Category:Architecture Working Group]]
[[Category:Grid_Interoperability]]
[[Category:AW Groupies]]
[[Category:MMOX]]

AW Groupies/Chat Logs/AWGroupies-2010-03-02

2010-03-02T19:04:36Z

Saijanai Kuhn: Created page with '*[08:29] Pforce Digfoot: realXtend in the house :) *[08:29] Dale Innis: :) yep! hiyas *[08:29] Zha Ewry shrugs and ponders why one w...'

AW Groupies

2010-03-02T19:03:23Z

Saijanai Kuhn: /* 2010 meetings */

=Purpose=
Serious technical discussion about Linden Lab's [[Architecture Working Group|Architecture Working Group (AWG)]]. "AW Groupies" is an unofficial, Resident-operated group, though most (all?) members also participate in the AWG.

Invite only (apply in-world to [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]), but the criterion is simple. Show up and contribute to the AWG, at [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]'s office hours, or on the Wiki, or on SL-Dev or in the [irc://irc.freenode.net/#pyogp irc channel] for the [[Pyogp/Client_Lib|Python test client]].

=Activities=
The [[AW_Groupies#Architecture_Working_Group_meetings|main AWG meeting]] is held annually or semi-annually.
We now [[AW_Groupies#In-World_Meetings|meet up to 8 times a week in-world]], counting AW Groupies meeting, Zero's office hours, Which's office hours, Enus's office hours, Whump's office hours and the [[Pyogp#In_World_Meetings|pygop daily meetings]].

Our main focus these days is on the [[Open Grid Protocol]], the [[Open_Grid_Public_Beta]] and the [[Pyogp|pyogp Python test harness]] for protocol testing.

Also members are quite active on the wiki and in the SLDEV mailing list.

A public SVN repository is open to all AW Groupies members here:
* http://openmv.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/archwg/

Contact anyone with root on openmv.org for an account if you are in the AW Groupies group in-world.

==Architecture Working Group meetings==
* [[AWG_Meeting_1|AWG I annual meeting transcript, participants' responses, etc]]
* [[AWG_Meeting_2|AWG II annual meeting transcript, video, participants' responses, etc]]

==In-World Meetings==
===AW Groupies meeting===
Weekly meeting times are:
* '''Mondays''' -------

* '''Tuesdays''' ------ 9:30 AM SLT at [http://slurl.com/secondlife/ThorneBridgeTown/156/129/25 Zha's IBM Island at ThorneBridgeTown] (weekly AWG meeting)
* ------------------ FIRST TUESDAY of the month ONLY: 1 PM SLT at [http://slurl.com/secondlife/Grasmere/171/112/27 Zero Linden's office hours at Grasmere]
* ------------------ Noon SLT [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies#OpenSim__meeting| Open Sim Meeting]

* '''Wednesdays''' -- Suspended until further notice: 1:30 PM SLT @ [http://slurl.com/secondlife/ambleside/228/244/25/?title=Whump%20Linden%27s%20Office Whump Linden's Office Hours] (main meeting for public grid open beta)

* '''Thursdays''' ----- 11 AM SLT at [http://slurl.com/secondlife/Beaumont/149/44/24 Which Linden's office hours at Beaumont] (often AWG-related these days)
* '''Fridays''' --------- 1 PM SLT [http://slurl.com/secondlife/Longfellow/99/97/28 Enus Linden's Office Hours] (starring PyOGP and [[Pyogp#Pic_of_the_Moment|a cast of several bots]])
:
Meetings are scheduled via the "[http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com SL AW Groupies" google calendar]" (though the above schedule is generally more accurate).

* [http://www.google.com/calendar/feeds/pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic XML]
* [http://www.google.com/calendar/ical/pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics ICal]
* Calendar ID: pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4@group.calendar.google.com
* [http://www.google.com/calendar/render?cid=pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com Add to your Google Calendar]

====Meeting Agendas====

Each meeting should have an agenda --- which will be distributed via
* google calendar entry
* in-world notice to the SL "AW Groupies" group
* the [[AW Groupies In-World Meeting Agenda]] wiki page

===OpenSim meeting===
* Tuesdays/Saturdays noon SLT, at Wright Plaza sim in OSGrid. [http://osgrid.org/index.php?page=home&btn=1 Registration Page]

Set [[Client_parameters|client command line options]] to:
:-loginuri http://osgrid.org:8002
:-loginpage http://osgrid.org/loginscreen.php
:-helperuri http://osgrid.org/

===Chat Logs===

Chat logs of the in-world meetings are published and accessible via the links below:

====2007 meetings====
:* September: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/2007-09-28 | 28]]
:* October: [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-01 | 1]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-05 | 5]] [[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2007_Oct_09|9 --Zero's office]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-16| 16]]
:* November: [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-06 | 6]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-13 | 13]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-20| 20]]
====2008 meetings====
:* January: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-01-08|08]]
:*February: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-02-19|19]]
:*April: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-08|08]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-22|22]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-29|29]]
:*May: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-05-20|20]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-05-27|27]]
:*June: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-03|03]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-10|10]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-17|17]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-24|24]]
:*July: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-01|01]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-08| 08]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-15|15]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-22|22]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-29|29]]
:*August: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-05|05]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-12|12]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-19|19]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-26|26]]
:* September [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-09|9]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-16|16]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-23|23]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-30|30]]
:* October [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-07|7]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-14|14]] [[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_October_14|14 --Zero's O.H.]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-28|28]]
:* November [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-11-11|11]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-11-18|18]]
:* December [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-09|9]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-16|16]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-23|23]]
====2009 meetings====
:*January [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-06|6]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-13|13]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-20|20]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-27|27]]
:*February [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-03|3]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-10|10]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-17|17]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-24|24]]
:*March [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-03-03|3]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-03-10|10]]
:*April [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-07|7]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-14|14]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-28|28]]
:*June [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-06-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-06-16|16]]
:*July [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-07-21|21]]
:*September [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-09-15|15]]
:*October [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-10-20|20]]
====2010 meetings====
:*March [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-03-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-03-02|2]]

*
* [[MMOX#Chat_logs|MMOX chat logs]] -- in-world transcripts with non-SL/Opensim participants
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Grid_Interoperability_Chat_Logs All Grid Interoperability chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:AW_Groupies_Transcripts All AW Groupies chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Pyogp_Transcripts All Pyogp chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Open_Grid_Public_Beta_Transcripts All Open Grid Public Beta Transcripts]
*
* [[User:Zero_Linden#Transcripts_of_previous_office_hours|Zero Linden's Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Which_Linden|Which Linden's Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Enus_Linden| Enus Linden Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Whump_Linden| Whump Linden Office Hour Transcripts]]
*
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=chat+log OpenSim chat logs]
* [[Mono/2008-04-04 | mono beta meeting discussion of het-grid]]

(if you post chat logs, you might want to use the [[User:Dr_Scofield/logtransform|sllog2wiki perl script]] to turn them into a more readable wiki table format ready to copy & paste into the chat log page)

Chat logs of AWGroupies meetings should be summarized on the wiki.

==Viewpoint Advocacy Groups==

[[Viewpoint Advocacy Groups]] - groups to focus on specific requirements.
=== AWG-specific VAGs===

* [[Core Grid Services, Protocols, and Structures VAG]]
* [[Event Scalability VAG]]
* [[Geometry and Physics VAG]]
* [[Live Performances VAG]]
* [[Quality Assurance VAG]]
* [[Scalability VAG]]
=== AWG-related VAGs===
* [[Map_API_VAG]]
* [[Multi-Process Client VAG -- draft]]

=Work-In-Progress=

Work-in-progress wiki pages are architecture pages that are (as the name implies ;-)) work in progress. Once the group has reached consensus that a particular topic is "good-to-go" we'll graduate that page to the [[Architecture Working Group|main AWG page]].

==General Concerns==
* [[Scoping]]
* [[Architecture Working Group Glossary|Glossary]]
* [[Use Cases]]
===Open Grid Protocol (OGP)===
====Linden Pages====

====User Pages====

==Communications==
* [[Initial CAPS seed]]
* [[AWG initial flows]]
* [[AWG flows login]]

* [[Mudata]]
* [[Streamlet]]
===Documenting current protocols===
* [[Pyogp|Python test harness for OGP]]
** [[User:Which_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_May_22| Which Linden office hours 22 May 2008]]
====AWG and citizen pages====
* [[Current_login_protocols]]
* [[Current_Sim_Capabilities]]
* [[Example_protocol_code]]
* [[Hegemons_Login_Analysis#Very_simple_C.23__server]]
* [[User:Gareth_Ellison/Supergrid|Litesim grid interop]]
* [[EventQueueGet_CAP| Event Queue Get CAP]]

====Linden Lab pages====
* [[Service_Disruptions|"Satellite's Eye" view of the Second Life architecture from a service disruption POV]]
* [[Message_System_and_Capabilities]]
* [[Viewer_Authentication]]
* [[Viewer_Architecture]]
* [[Protocol]]
* [[LLSD]]
* [[Certified_HTTP_Escrow]]
* [[ImprovedInstantMessage]]
* [[Client_parameters|client command line parameters and stuff]]

====libsecondlife reference pages====
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Login Login page]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Protocol_%28network%29 Protocol page]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Category:Packets packets index]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Movement Movement]

====opensim reference pages====
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Grid_Architecture_Diagram opensim grid architecture diagram]
* [http://opensimulator.org/images/3/3c/OGS1Login_Sequence.jpg login diagram (same general sequence as current LL login)]

=== Future Protocols===
* [[Second_Life_Login_API_Strawman]]
:deprecated in favor of:
* [[Open Grid Protocol]]
** [[SLGOGP_Teleport_Strawman]]
*[[Architecture_Working_Group#Design_Documents | Ongoing next generation protocols documentation effort by Linden Lab]]

=== Possible future directions ===
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenID| OpenID A decentralized single sign-on system]
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yadis| Yardis A digital identity protocol]

==Asset Security and Trust==
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Dale_Innis/Asset_handling_in_OGP Asset Handling in OGP]
* [[Protecting content in an open grid]]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Infinity_Linden/OGP_Trust_Model OGP Trust Model]

==Scaling Issues==
* [[Brainstorming#ANALYSIS:_Region_Subdivision_as_a_scaling_method| Region Subdivision]]
* [[Brainstorming#ANALYSIS:_Scalability_through_reverse_proxies:_the_paravirtual_grid| Reverse Proxies]]
* [[AWG Scalability through per-resident subdivision of the Grid| Resident Subdivision]]
===Group IM===
* [[Message_Queue_Evaluation_Notes| Which Linden's message queue evaluation notes]]

==Other==
* [[Use_Cases#Extended_Capability_Clients|Extended Capability Clients]]

=Thinking-in-Progress=

* Have a look and contribute to the [[Brainstorming|brainstorming]] page.

* It's early days on the [[Multi-Process Client VAG -- draft]], but we would highly appreciate input to help with design choices and direction.
==Misc User Pages==
* Have an AWG idea? Don't know where in the wiki it should be indexed? Make sure that folks can find it by adding it to the [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:AW_Groupies_User_Pages AW_Groupies_User_Pages] Add: <nowiki>'[[Category:AW Groupies User Pages]]'</nowiki> to the end of your user page.

=External Resources=

Stuff of interest to or in connection with the [[AW Groupies]] or the [[Architecture Working Group]]:

* [[Developer_communication_tools|Developer Communication Tools (Linden Lab)]]
* [[SLDev|SLDev Main Page]]
* [[Open_Grid_Public_Beta]]
* [[Pyogp]] {Linden Labs/ AWG Python-based protocols testing library)
*
* [http://openmv.org/ OpenMetaverse Home]
**[http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Main_Page libsecondlife (libsl) homepage]
**[http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page opensim homepage]
**[http://openviewer.org openviewer homepage]
*[http://www.osgrid.org OSGrid: open/non-profit OpenSim based grid]
* [http://www.realxtend.org/ realxtend homepage]
*
* [http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/22428.wss IBM PR re: AWG]

==Second Life Viewers==
Various viewers compatible with Second Life.

::*Note: the "Derived 3rd-party clients" page includes a few non GPL viewers plus some hybrids. I'll try to come up with a better way to index this stuff. [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]
::*Yeah, that redirect of "Alternate_viewers" to "Downloads" is nuts, and the "Downloads" page itself seems to have to have a variety of things bundled together --- it needs splitting. But don't split it by license, that's precisely what I sought to eliminate in this section's re-org. It makes no sense to classify clients by license, since GPL'd clients don't necessarily have anything to do with Linden's code, just like BSD clients don't necessarily have anything to do with libomv. It does make sense to keep a list of Linden-derived clients though, since they're all more alike than not alike, and share both code and license encumbrance. [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]] 01:28, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

===Viewers based on the Linden Lab GPL code (C++)===

*[http://secondlife.com/support/downloads.php Main Second Life viewer/client]
:The main (official) Second Life viewer, produced by Linden Lab with the help of patches submitted by the community, and available for Linux, Mac and Windows.

*[[Snowglobe|Snowglobe]]

:A new version of the Second Life client in a public repository where Linden Lab permits direct committing from select community members alongside daily Linden work. There is also a new build system to keep this version continuously building when new submissions are received, with new builds available to everyone. This version will become available as an alternative Linden download alongside the main SL client, once it is sufficiently stable.

*[[Alternate_viewers|Derived 3rd-party clients]] (''currently links to a mixed "Downloads" page, to be fixed'')
:A large list of clients (not necessarily 3D) developed in the free and open-source community using GPL code from the above two official viewers.

===Viewers based on the libomv/libsl code (C#)===

* [http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/idealistviewer/ Idealist]
:IdealistViewer is a new cross-platform viewer based on the Irrlicht engine, PrimMesher, and LibOpenmetaverse. It can either use the Second Life protocols as provided by LibOpenmetaverse or the MXP protocol. Since it uses the Irrlicht engine it can simultaneously display prim/sculptie content and objects and animated meshes/avatars from a wide variety of sources such as Collada, .OBJ, DirectX, and Blitz3D files. It is not derived from the LL GPL viewer and is made available under BSD style licensing. It is designed to work with OpenSimulator but may also work with Second Life. It is written in the C# language.

* [http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/lookingglass/ LookingGlass]
:LookingGlass viewer is a modular viewer with pluggable communication and rendering engines. Initial communication plugin uses LibOpenMetaverse and the initial rendering plugin uses PrimMesher and Ogre. It is written in C# and BSD licensed. Home site at http://lookingglassviewer.org/ .

===Viewers based on other libraries (python, C, etc)===

* [[Pyogp]]
: Pyogp is an open source project between Linden Lab and the Architecture Working Group (AWG) to support testing the (Open Grid Protocol (OGP). Written in Python, Pyogp will consist initially of a client library and test functionality to enable testing OGP-enabled virtual worlds such as Second Life and compatible OpenSim implementations. These components will expand as the effort matures. Pyogp is released under the Apache v2 license.

==Mailing Lists==
* [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo List of Linden Lab mailing lists]
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sldev SLDEV] Main mailing list for SL developers
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gridnauts gridnauts] Mailing list for participants in Open Grid Public Beta
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pyogp PyOGP] Mailing List for Python-based client library and test harness for the Open Grid Protocols
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Resources#Mailing_Lists libsecondlife]
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page opensim]
* [http://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/openviewer-dev openviewer]

==IRC==
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#opensl
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#opensl-jira (real time updates of entries to jira.secondlife.com)
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#opensl-svn (updates of the the public SVN)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#opensim * irc://irc.freenode.net/#opensim-dev
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#libomv * irc://irc.efnet.net/#libomv-dev
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#openviewer * irc://irc.freenode.net/#openviewer-dev
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#realxtend (Finnish language but can handle English if needed)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#pyogp (Python test harness/pyogp Second LIfe library irc)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#gridnauts (Open Grid Public Beta irc)

==Forums==
* [http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend| realXtend google forum]

==Capabilities==

* [http://www.cap-lore.com/CapTheory/index.html Capabilities theory and practice]
* [http://wiki.erights.org/wiki/Zooko%27s_triangle Zook's Triangle index] -- short list of interesting articles about naming and capabilties
* [http://www.cs.washington.edu/homes/levy/capabook/ Capability-based Systems by Henry Levy] --online copy of 1984 book on early implementations of capabilities systems
* [http://www.erights.org/ E language home] [https://www.cypherpunks.to/erights/ E language home mirror] [http://wiki.erights.org/ E wiki] --computer language dedicated to handling distributed trust issues
** [https://www.cypherpunks.to/erights/elib/capability/index.html Capability Computation]
** irc://irc.freenode.net/#erights
** [http://www.eros-os.org/mailman/listinfo/e-lang E language mailing list]
* [http://www.eros-os.org/mailman/listinfo/cap-talk mailing list for capability systems]
* [http://mscheffler.wordpress.com/2008/01/20/diploma/ blog and thesis on caps in virtual worlds Martin Scheffler]
* [http://homepage.mac.com/kpreid/elang/den.html Cap-based MUD by Kevin Reid] --written in E
* [http://www.fudco.com/chip/lessons.html discussion of ancient (Commodore 64!) video game that used capabilities]

==Misc==

* [http://blog.signpostmarv.name/2008/07/29/non-unique-region-names-within-the-confines-of-a-single-grid-yay-or-nay/ non-unique region names within the confines of a single grid, yay or nay ?]
* [http://blog.signpostmarv.name/2008/01/04/map-api-in-new-location/ discussion of new Map API and related issues]
* [http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source Open Source Portal] --index to all things Open Source for Linden Lab

=Members=

Founder [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]

[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]

[[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]

[[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]

[[User:Dr Scofield|Dr Scofield]]

[[User:Burhop Piccard|Burhop Piccard]]

[[User:Vicero Lambert|Vicero Lambert]]

[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]

[[User:Silicon Plunkett|Silicon Plunkett]]

[[User:Dale Innis|Dale Innis]]

[[Category:Architecture Working Group]]
[[Category:Grid_Interoperability]]
[[Category:AW Groupies]]
[[Category:MMOX]]

AW Groupies

2010-03-02T19:02:31Z

Saijanai Kuhn: /* Chat Logs */

=Purpose=
Serious technical discussion about Linden Lab's [[Architecture Working Group|Architecture Working Group (AWG)]]. "AW Groupies" is an unofficial, Resident-operated group, though most (all?) members also participate in the AWG.

Invite only (apply in-world to [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]), but the criterion is simple. Show up and contribute to the AWG, at [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]'s office hours, or on the Wiki, or on SL-Dev or in the [irc://irc.freenode.net/#pyogp irc channel] for the [[Pyogp/Client_Lib|Python test client]].

=Activities=
The [[AW_Groupies#Architecture_Working_Group_meetings|main AWG meeting]] is held annually or semi-annually.
We now [[AW_Groupies#In-World_Meetings|meet up to 8 times a week in-world]], counting AW Groupies meeting, Zero's office hours, Which's office hours, Enus's office hours, Whump's office hours and the [[Pyogp#In_World_Meetings|pygop daily meetings]].

Our main focus these days is on the [[Open Grid Protocol]], the [[Open_Grid_Public_Beta]] and the [[Pyogp|pyogp Python test harness]] for protocol testing.

Also members are quite active on the wiki and in the SLDEV mailing list.

A public SVN repository is open to all AW Groupies members here:
* http://openmv.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/archwg/

Contact anyone with root on openmv.org for an account if you are in the AW Groupies group in-world.

==Architecture Working Group meetings==
* [[AWG_Meeting_1|AWG I annual meeting transcript, participants' responses, etc]]
* [[AWG_Meeting_2|AWG II annual meeting transcript, video, participants' responses, etc]]

==In-World Meetings==
===AW Groupies meeting===
Weekly meeting times are:
* '''Mondays''' -------

* '''Tuesdays''' ------ 9:30 AM SLT at [http://slurl.com/secondlife/ThorneBridgeTown/156/129/25 Zha's IBM Island at ThorneBridgeTown] (weekly AWG meeting)
* ------------------ FIRST TUESDAY of the month ONLY: 1 PM SLT at [http://slurl.com/secondlife/Grasmere/171/112/27 Zero Linden's office hours at Grasmere]
* ------------------ Noon SLT [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies#OpenSim__meeting| Open Sim Meeting]

* '''Wednesdays''' -- Suspended until further notice: 1:30 PM SLT @ [http://slurl.com/secondlife/ambleside/228/244/25/?title=Whump%20Linden%27s%20Office Whump Linden's Office Hours] (main meeting for public grid open beta)

* '''Thursdays''' ----- 11 AM SLT at [http://slurl.com/secondlife/Beaumont/149/44/24 Which Linden's office hours at Beaumont] (often AWG-related these days)
* '''Fridays''' --------- 1 PM SLT [http://slurl.com/secondlife/Longfellow/99/97/28 Enus Linden's Office Hours] (starring PyOGP and [[Pyogp#Pic_of_the_Moment|a cast of several bots]])
:
Meetings are scheduled via the "[http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com SL AW Groupies" google calendar]" (though the above schedule is generally more accurate).

* [http://www.google.com/calendar/feeds/pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic XML]
* [http://www.google.com/calendar/ical/pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics ICal]
* Calendar ID: pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4@group.calendar.google.com
* [http://www.google.com/calendar/render?cid=pdd5mpktklo89bgmfgi076mcc4%40group.calendar.google.com Add to your Google Calendar]

====Meeting Agendas====

Each meeting should have an agenda --- which will be distributed via
* google calendar entry
* in-world notice to the SL "AW Groupies" group
* the [[AW Groupies In-World Meeting Agenda]] wiki page

===OpenSim meeting===
* Tuesdays/Saturdays noon SLT, at Wright Plaza sim in OSGrid. [http://osgrid.org/index.php?page=home&btn=1 Registration Page]

Set [[Client_parameters|client command line options]] to:
:-loginuri http://osgrid.org:8002
:-loginpage http://osgrid.org/loginscreen.php
:-helperuri http://osgrid.org/

===Chat Logs===

Chat logs of the in-world meetings are published and accessible via the links below:

====2007 meetings====
:* September: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/2007-09-28 | 28]]
:* October: [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-01 | 1]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-05 | 5]] [[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2007_Oct_09|9 --Zero's office]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-10-16| 16]]
:* November: [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-06 | 6]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-13 | 13]] [[AW Groupies/Chat Logs/2007-11-20| 20]]
====2008 meetings====
:* January: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-01-08|08]]
:*February: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-02-19|19]]
:*April: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-08|08]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-22|22]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-04-29|29]]
:*May: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-05-20|20]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-05-27|27]]
:*June: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-03|03]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-10|10]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-17|17]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-06-24|24]]
:*July: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-01|01]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-08| 08]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-15|15]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-22|22]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-07-29|29]]
:*August: [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-05|05]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-12|12]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-19|19]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-26|26]]
:* September [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-09|9]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-16|16]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-23|23]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-30|30]]
:* October [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-07|7]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-14|14]] [[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_October_14|14 --Zero's O.H.]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-10-28|28]]
:* November [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-11-11|11]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-11-18|18]]
:* December [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-09|9]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-16|16]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-12-23|23]]
====2009 meetings====
:*January [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-06|6]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-13|13]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-20|20]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-01-27|27]]
:*February [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-03|3]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-10|10]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-17|17]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-24|24]]
:*March [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-03-03|3]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-03-10|10]]
:*April [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-07|7]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-14|14]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-04-28|28]]
:*June [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-06-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-06-16|16]]
:*July [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-07-21|21]]
:*September [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-09-15|15]]
:*October [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-10-20|20]]
====2010 meetings====
:*March [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-03-02|2]] [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2010-03-02|2]]
*
* [[MMOX#Chat_logs|MMOX chat logs]] -- in-world transcripts with non-SL/Opensim participants
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Grid_Interoperability_Chat_Logs All Grid Interoperability chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:AW_Groupies_Transcripts All AW Groupies chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Pyogp_Transcripts All Pyogp chat logs]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Open_Grid_Public_Beta_Transcripts All Open Grid Public Beta Transcripts]
*
* [[User:Zero_Linden#Transcripts_of_previous_office_hours|Zero Linden's Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Which_Linden|Which Linden's Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Enus_Linden| Enus Linden Office Hour Transcripts]]
* [[User:Whump_Linden| Whump Linden Office Hour Transcripts]]
*
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=chat+log OpenSim chat logs]
* [[Mono/2008-04-04 | mono beta meeting discussion of het-grid]]

(if you post chat logs, you might want to use the [[User:Dr_Scofield/logtransform|sllog2wiki perl script]] to turn them into a more readable wiki table format ready to copy & paste into the chat log page)

Chat logs of AWGroupies meetings should be summarized on the wiki.

==Viewpoint Advocacy Groups==

[[Viewpoint Advocacy Groups]] - groups to focus on specific requirements.
=== AWG-specific VAGs===

* [[Core Grid Services, Protocols, and Structures VAG]]
* [[Event Scalability VAG]]
* [[Geometry and Physics VAG]]
* [[Live Performances VAG]]
* [[Quality Assurance VAG]]
* [[Scalability VAG]]
=== AWG-related VAGs===
* [[Map_API_VAG]]
* [[Multi-Process Client VAG -- draft]]

=Work-In-Progress=

Work-in-progress wiki pages are architecture pages that are (as the name implies ;-)) work in progress. Once the group has reached consensus that a particular topic is "good-to-go" we'll graduate that page to the [[Architecture Working Group|main AWG page]].

==General Concerns==
* [[Scoping]]
* [[Architecture Working Group Glossary|Glossary]]
* [[Use Cases]]
===Open Grid Protocol (OGP)===
====Linden Pages====

====User Pages====

==Communications==
* [[Initial CAPS seed]]
* [[AWG initial flows]]
* [[AWG flows login]]

* [[Mudata]]
* [[Streamlet]]
===Documenting current protocols===
* [[Pyogp|Python test harness for OGP]]
** [[User:Which_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_May_22| Which Linden office hours 22 May 2008]]
====AWG and citizen pages====
* [[Current_login_protocols]]
* [[Current_Sim_Capabilities]]
* [[Example_protocol_code]]
* [[Hegemons_Login_Analysis#Very_simple_C.23__server]]
* [[User:Gareth_Ellison/Supergrid|Litesim grid interop]]
* [[EventQueueGet_CAP| Event Queue Get CAP]]

====Linden Lab pages====
* [[Service_Disruptions|"Satellite's Eye" view of the Second Life architecture from a service disruption POV]]
* [[Message_System_and_Capabilities]]
* [[Viewer_Authentication]]
* [[Viewer_Architecture]]
* [[Protocol]]
* [[LLSD]]
* [[Certified_HTTP_Escrow]]
* [[ImprovedInstantMessage]]
* [[Client_parameters|client command line parameters and stuff]]

====libsecondlife reference pages====
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Login Login page]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Protocol_%28network%29 Protocol page]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Category:Packets packets index]
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Movement Movement]

====opensim reference pages====
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Grid_Architecture_Diagram opensim grid architecture diagram]
* [http://opensimulator.org/images/3/3c/OGS1Login_Sequence.jpg login diagram (same general sequence as current LL login)]

=== Future Protocols===
* [[Second_Life_Login_API_Strawman]]
:deprecated in favor of:
* [[Open Grid Protocol]]
** [[SLGOGP_Teleport_Strawman]]
*[[Architecture_Working_Group#Design_Documents | Ongoing next generation protocols documentation effort by Linden Lab]]

=== Possible future directions ===
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenID| OpenID A decentralized single sign-on system]
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yadis| Yardis A digital identity protocol]

==Asset Security and Trust==
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Dale_Innis/Asset_handling_in_OGP Asset Handling in OGP]
* [[Protecting content in an open grid]]
* [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Infinity_Linden/OGP_Trust_Model OGP Trust Model]

==Scaling Issues==
* [[Brainstorming#ANALYSIS:_Region_Subdivision_as_a_scaling_method| Region Subdivision]]
* [[Brainstorming#ANALYSIS:_Scalability_through_reverse_proxies:_the_paravirtual_grid| Reverse Proxies]]
* [[AWG Scalability through per-resident subdivision of the Grid| Resident Subdivision]]
===Group IM===
* [[Message_Queue_Evaluation_Notes| Which Linden's message queue evaluation notes]]

==Other==
* [[Use_Cases#Extended_Capability_Clients|Extended Capability Clients]]

=Thinking-in-Progress=

* Have a look and contribute to the [[Brainstorming|brainstorming]] page.

* It's early days on the [[Multi-Process Client VAG -- draft]], but we would highly appreciate input to help with design choices and direction.
==Misc User Pages==
* Have an AWG idea? Don't know where in the wiki it should be indexed? Make sure that folks can find it by adding it to the [https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:AW_Groupies_User_Pages AW_Groupies_User_Pages] Add: <nowiki>'[[Category:AW Groupies User Pages]]'</nowiki> to the end of your user page.

=External Resources=

Stuff of interest to or in connection with the [[AW Groupies]] or the [[Architecture Working Group]]:

* [[Developer_communication_tools|Developer Communication Tools (Linden Lab)]]
* [[SLDev|SLDev Main Page]]
* [[Open_Grid_Public_Beta]]
* [[Pyogp]] {Linden Labs/ AWG Python-based protocols testing library)
*
* [http://openmv.org/ OpenMetaverse Home]
**[http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Main_Page libsecondlife (libsl) homepage]
**[http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page opensim homepage]
**[http://openviewer.org openviewer homepage]
*[http://www.osgrid.org OSGrid: open/non-profit OpenSim based grid]
* [http://www.realxtend.org/ realxtend homepage]
*
* [http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/22428.wss IBM PR re: AWG]

==Second Life Viewers==
Various viewers compatible with Second Life.

::*Note: the "Derived 3rd-party clients" page includes a few non GPL viewers plus some hybrids. I'll try to come up with a better way to index this stuff. [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]
::*Yeah, that redirect of "Alternate_viewers" to "Downloads" is nuts, and the "Downloads" page itself seems to have to have a variety of things bundled together --- it needs splitting. But don't split it by license, that's precisely what I sought to eliminate in this section's re-org. It makes no sense to classify clients by license, since GPL'd clients don't necessarily have anything to do with Linden's code, just like BSD clients don't necessarily have anything to do with libomv. It does make sense to keep a list of Linden-derived clients though, since they're all more alike than not alike, and share both code and license encumbrance. [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]] 01:28, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

===Viewers based on the Linden Lab GPL code (C++)===

*[http://secondlife.com/support/downloads.php Main Second Life viewer/client]
:The main (official) Second Life viewer, produced by Linden Lab with the help of patches submitted by the community, and available for Linux, Mac and Windows.

*[[Snowglobe|Snowglobe]]

:A new version of the Second Life client in a public repository where Linden Lab permits direct committing from select community members alongside daily Linden work. There is also a new build system to keep this version continuously building when new submissions are received, with new builds available to everyone. This version will become available as an alternative Linden download alongside the main SL client, once it is sufficiently stable.

*[[Alternate_viewers|Derived 3rd-party clients]] (''currently links to a mixed "Downloads" page, to be fixed'')
:A large list of clients (not necessarily 3D) developed in the free and open-source community using GPL code from the above two official viewers.

===Viewers based on the libomv/libsl code (C#)===

* [http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/idealistviewer/ Idealist]
:IdealistViewer is a new cross-platform viewer based on the Irrlicht engine, PrimMesher, and LibOpenmetaverse. It can either use the Second Life protocols as provided by LibOpenmetaverse or the MXP protocol. Since it uses the Irrlicht engine it can simultaneously display prim/sculptie content and objects and animated meshes/avatars from a wide variety of sources such as Collada, .OBJ, DirectX, and Blitz3D files. It is not derived from the LL GPL viewer and is made available under BSD style licensing. It is designed to work with OpenSimulator but may also work with Second Life. It is written in the C# language.

* [http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/lookingglass/ LookingGlass]
:LookingGlass viewer is a modular viewer with pluggable communication and rendering engines. Initial communication plugin uses LibOpenMetaverse and the initial rendering plugin uses PrimMesher and Ogre. It is written in C# and BSD licensed. Home site at http://lookingglassviewer.org/ .

===Viewers based on other libraries (python, C, etc)===

* [[Pyogp]]
: Pyogp is an open source project between Linden Lab and the Architecture Working Group (AWG) to support testing the (Open Grid Protocol (OGP). Written in Python, Pyogp will consist initially of a client library and test functionality to enable testing OGP-enabled virtual worlds such as Second Life and compatible OpenSim implementations. These components will expand as the effort matures. Pyogp is released under the Apache v2 license.

==Mailing Lists==
* [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo List of Linden Lab mailing lists]
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sldev SLDEV] Main mailing list for SL developers
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gridnauts gridnauts] Mailing list for participants in Open Grid Public Beta
** [https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pyogp PyOGP] Mailing List for Python-based client library and test harness for the Open Grid Protocols
* [http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Resources#Mailing_Lists libsecondlife]
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page opensim]
* [http://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/openviewer-dev openviewer]

==IRC==
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#opensl
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#opensl-jira (real time updates of entries to jira.secondlife.com)
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#opensl-svn (updates of the the public SVN)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#opensim * irc://irc.freenode.net/#opensim-dev
* irc://irc.efnet.net/#libomv * irc://irc.efnet.net/#libomv-dev
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#openviewer * irc://irc.freenode.net/#openviewer-dev
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#realxtend (Finnish language but can handle English if needed)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#pyogp (Python test harness/pyogp Second LIfe library irc)
* irc://irc.freenode.net/#gridnauts (Open Grid Public Beta irc)

==Forums==
* [http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend| realXtend google forum]

==Capabilities==

* [http://www.cap-lore.com/CapTheory/index.html Capabilities theory and practice]
* [http://wiki.erights.org/wiki/Zooko%27s_triangle Zook's Triangle index] -- short list of interesting articles about naming and capabilties
* [http://www.cs.washington.edu/homes/levy/capabook/ Capability-based Systems by Henry Levy] --online copy of 1984 book on early implementations of capabilities systems
* [http://www.erights.org/ E language home] [https://www.cypherpunks.to/erights/ E language home mirror] [http://wiki.erights.org/ E wiki] --computer language dedicated to handling distributed trust issues
** [https://www.cypherpunks.to/erights/elib/capability/index.html Capability Computation]
** irc://irc.freenode.net/#erights
** [http://www.eros-os.org/mailman/listinfo/e-lang E language mailing list]
* [http://www.eros-os.org/mailman/listinfo/cap-talk mailing list for capability systems]
* [http://mscheffler.wordpress.com/2008/01/20/diploma/ blog and thesis on caps in virtual worlds Martin Scheffler]
* [http://homepage.mac.com/kpreid/elang/den.html Cap-based MUD by Kevin Reid] --written in E
* [http://www.fudco.com/chip/lessons.html discussion of ancient (Commodore 64!) video game that used capabilities]

==Misc==

* [http://blog.signpostmarv.name/2008/07/29/non-unique-region-names-within-the-confines-of-a-single-grid-yay-or-nay/ non-unique region names within the confines of a single grid, yay or nay ?]
* [http://blog.signpostmarv.name/2008/01/04/map-api-in-new-location/ discussion of new Map API and related issues]
* [http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source Open Source Portal] --index to all things Open Source for Linden Lab

=Members=

Founder [[User: Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]

[[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]

[[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]

[[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]

[[User:Dr Scofield|Dr Scofield]]

[[User:Burhop Piccard|Burhop Piccard]]

[[User:Vicero Lambert|Vicero Lambert]]

[[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]

[[User:Silicon Plunkett|Silicon Plunkett]]

[[User:Dale Innis|Dale Innis]]

[[Category:Architecture Working Group]]
[[Category:Grid_Interoperability]]
[[Category:AW Groupies]]
[[Category:MMOX]]

User:Saijanai Kuhn/Plugins discussion

2010-01-14T22:22:52Z

Saijanai Kuhn: /* Media Rendering Plugin */

==[[Media_Rendering_Plugin_Framework| New Media plugin]]==

This is some rambling about the new Second Life viewer plugins and how it could be extended. Such plugins could have many uses, from allowing people to show new kinds of animated movies, or to display a live, interactive view of their own computer, etc. [[User_talk:Saijanai_Kuhn/Plugins_discussion| Discuss here]].
===Current Setup===
{| Border = "0"
|-
|width="300"|* The Second Life server is the main computer that your own computer connects to when you start Second Life. It starts a login process which allows you to eventually start roaming the Second Life world with your avatar. Without any plugins at all, the main communication is directly between your client and the current server running the land your avatar is standing on, also known as a "simulator." * The Second Life client is the program you download in order to connect to Second Life.|| [[Image:Simpleserver_diagram.svg‎|100px]]
|}
{| Border = "0"
===[http://lib.openmetaverse.org/wiki/SLProxy Gridproxy]===
|-
|width="300"|* With [http://lib.openmetaverse.org/wiki/SLProxy Gridproxy], you can add a program that intercepts data as it comes to your computer or is sent out to the Second Life simulator. This allows you to add new features to Second Life by installing plugins that modify/insert/delete the data before it can reach its final destination. Gridproxy could create a local webpage to control a given plugin and thereby give you a robust GUI for the plugin, or, you could use the new media plugin to add a GUI on a prim in some way within the main viewer window. **Possible plugins might include new chat/IM types or a more sophisticated estate management system, etc. || [[Image:Gridproxy diagram.svg|500px]]
|}

===[[Media_Rendering_Plugin_Framework| Media Rendering Plugin]]===
{| Border = "0"
|-
|width="400"|With the new media rendering plugin framework defined by Linden Lab, developers can now add new functions to Second Life without requiring Gridproxy. Basically, the plugin is able to draw directly onto a prim and the Second Life viewer is able to detect mouse-button clicks and the words you type within the prim and pass your text and mouse movement back to the media plugin.--[[User:Robin_Cornelius/Media_Plugin_Testing|testing link]]. This allows for some pretty neat possiblies, like the ability to show a program window or computer screen running on a prim. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_Network_Computing using VNC]|| [[Image:Multimedia_plugin.svg|500px]]||<videoflash>TtHO4AtVSwc|300|300</videoflash>
|}

==Proposed Extension to Media Plugin==
{| Border = "0"
|-
|width="400"|* A possible extension to the new media plugin would allow a developer to manipulate ingoing/outgoing data as Gridproxy does, as well as draw directly to prims as the Media Plugin does. New interactions with the viewer could include receiving internal data about avatar positions, or creating a new kind of particle effect. A plugin could provide specialized control of the avatar for use with the [[Puppeteering|old Puppeteering code]] or for creating Mechanima. New particle effects might be added via such a plugin. New Physics for use with different kinds of virtual worlds might be added that way. Specialized plugins could allow people to play complex games in realtime, such as is possible right now with Worlds of Warcraft and other roll-playing games.||[[Image:Plugin extension.svg|400px]]

|}

===[http://www.avatarpuppeteering.com/ Puppeteering Plugin]===

{| Border = "0"
| With the [[Puppeteering|never finished puppeteering code]] written by Linden Lab, combined with an extension to the new media plugin, developers could create plugins that would would allow animators, mechanimators, etc, to animate one or more avatar using sophisticated programs and scripts directly.||<videoflash>Mfc66AIKh9o|thumb</videoflash>
|}

User:Nyx Linden/Office Hours Agenda

2009-12-09T19:46:07Z

Saijanai Kuhn: /* December 9, 2009 */

==Nyx Linden's Office Hours Agenda==

Office hours are on Wednesdays at Noon in Pacific time (SL standard time) located in Borrowdale at: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Borrowdale/74/217/32

Topics are focused on avatars, content creation efficiency, content creation tools and methods, rendering issues, and many related random topics.

Please add topics for discussion / agenda items to the end of the list below prior to 11:50 AM. Priority will be given to topics that are posted in advance and are relevant to the goals of the office hour. Feel free to include relevant links to JIRA or wiki pages. Contact Nyx Linden if you are unsure if your topic is relevant or appropriate.

Archived agendas can be found at the [[User:Nyx_Linden/Office_Hours_Agenda_Archive|agenda archive]].

Next meeting scheduled for: December 9, 2009.

===Agenda===

==December 9, 2009==

Client-side content creation tools ala https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Saijanai_Kuhn/Plugins_discussion

User:Qarl Linden/Office Hours/2009 11 20

2009-11-20T23:29:08Z

Saijanai Kuhn: Created page with '*[2009-11-20 11:01:16] Jonit Ivory: who knows, or cares, but I have to add weight to it as it seems Mark commented on it *[2009-11-20 11:01:32] [[User:Sebas...'

*[2009-11-20 11:01:16] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: who knows, or cares, but I have to add weight to it as it seems Mark commented on it
*[2009-11-20 11:01:32] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Thank you for the SLURL Morg :)
*[2009-11-20 11:01:56] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: hey nyx
*[2009-11-20 11:02:02] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaverri|Sebastean Steamweaverri]]: Ashton: so qarl, any projects you finished in last few weeks you beena way?
*[2009-11-20 11:02:03] [[User:Uni Ninetails|Uni Ninetails]]: its Nyx quick get em! :)
*[2009-11-20 11:02:04] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaverri|Sebastean Steamweaverri]]: Ashton: hey nyx
*[2009-11-20 11:02:05] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: wlcome latif
*[2009-11-20 11:02:13] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hey all :)
*[2009-11-20 11:02:16] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: thanks
*[2009-11-20 11:02:20] [[User:Nyx Linden|Nyx Linden]]: I didn't do it! :D
*[2009-11-20 11:02:29] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: why not?
*[2009-11-20 11:02:30] [[User:Nyx Linden|Nyx Linden]]: err, I mean hi :)
*[2009-11-20 11:02:33] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: We're not dead. We're just not scaling. The Beeb should have looked at the numbers and realized
*[2009-11-20 11:02:47] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaverri|Sebastean Steamweaverri]]: Ashton: wish you did do it nyx, then you did something :p hehe
*[2009-11-20 11:02:48] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: I saw your comment in AWG Morgaine, yes yes
*[2009-11-20 11:02:51] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaverri|Sebastean Steamweaverri]]: Ashton: jk dude :p
*[2009-11-20 11:03:19] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hiya Nyx :-)
*[2009-11-20 11:03:28] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: hi everybody
*[2009-11-20 11:03:32] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Yay! I'm not sitting on someone!
*[2009-11-20 11:03:35] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hi Rex
*[2009-11-20 11:03:36] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: so what's on the agenda for today?
*[2009-11-20 11:03:42] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: hi morgaine
*[2009-11-20 11:03:46] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Other than ****
*[2009-11-20 11:03:56] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: any announcements Qarl?
*[2009-11-20 11:03:57] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: what about **** ?
*[2009-11-20 11:04:11] [[User:Uni Ninetails|Uni Ninetails]]: i have to wait till Monday to ask my stuff :P~
*[2009-11-20 11:04:14] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Is **** done scalably at least? ;-)
*[2009-11-20 11:04:30] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: pretty much so, yes.
*[2009-11-20 11:04:33] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: has anybody TPed first down, and did u get this: "[11:03
*[2009-11-20 11:04:34] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: \o/
*[2009-11-20 11:04:46] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: we're still working on the details of the "policy" stuff.
*[2009-11-20 11:04:48] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: did u qarl install security system?
*[2009-11-20 11:04:55] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: first and 10, and you got that?
*[2009-11-20 11:05:02] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: hi qarl, nyx
*[2009-11-20 11:05:08] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Policy stuff?
*[2009-11-20 11:05:14] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaverri|Sebastean Steamweaverri]]: Ashton: didnt see it rex
*[2009-11-20 11:05:17] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaverri|Sebastean Steamweaverri]]: Ashton: and hi :)
*[2009-11-20 11:05:22] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: hi
*[2009-11-20 11:05:32] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: hi Rex, how goes your day?
*[2009-11-20 11:05:36] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I sure hope the techies are working on the policy stuff. Otherwise precedent says it'll be another fiasco. DONT leave non-techs to it.
*[2009-11-20 11:05:37] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: hi
*[2009-11-20 11:05:39] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: ok
*[2009-11-20 11:05:42] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: how can we control complexity so that the system doesn't break down with griefing, bad design, etc.
*[2009-11-20 11:06:02] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: that's the hardest part, i think.
*[2009-11-20 11:06:04] [[User:Uni Ninetails|Uni Ninetails]]: the thing that cannot me mentioned ... X.X
*[2009-11-20 11:06:13] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: coming up with good rules for them.
*[2009-11-20 11:06:14] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: u have a goverment body elected by the residents, and ll has veto power:)
*[2009-11-20 11:06:16] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Qarl, I have an answer to that.
*[2009-11-20 11:06:21] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: them = which can never be mentioned. :)
*[2009-11-20 11:06:26] [[User:Uni Ninetails|Uni Ninetails]]: I hate those Mibs Qarl they mess up the bathroom ate all my cooies and keep cleaning there guns with my underwear.
*[2009-11-20 11:06:29] [[User:Nyx Linden|Nyx Linden]]: shh, we shouldn't discuss unmentionables here
*[2009-11-20 11:06:36] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Sounds like you're talking about client-side scripting, hehe.
*[2009-11-20 11:06:41] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: questions about **** should probably be directed during the **** office hours.
*[2009-11-20 11:06:47] [[User:Uni Ninetails|Uni Ninetails]]: LOL
*[2009-11-20 11:06:47] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Haha
*[2009-11-20 11:06:55] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Well, my answer is pretty generic.
*[2009-11-20 11:06:57] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: ok. lets talk meshes:)
*[2009-11-20 11:07:05] [[User:Uni Ninetails|Uni Ninetails]]: facepaws
*[2009-11-20 11:07:06] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: poor Kate, she's got one later, I wil try and add *** to her agenda
*[2009-11-20 11:07:07] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Held by **** Linden.
*[2009-11-20 11:07:08] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: i'll answer if i can.
*[2009-11-20 11:07:34] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Yesterday, Andrew linden brought up, "What can we do that would entice people to get premium accounts"
*[2009-11-20 11:07:36] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: what file types will be avialable for uploading meshes
*[2009-11-20 11:07:47] [[User:Uni Ninetails|Uni Ninetails]]: Sebastean carefull what you say those Men in black like cookies...
*[2009-11-20 11:07:52] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: "government body elected by the residents" <--- i think is a brilliant idea.
*[2009-11-20 11:08:00] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: I don't know what you're talking about Uni o.0
*[2009-11-20 11:08:01] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: HAHAHA
*[2009-11-20 11:08:01] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: Sebastean, this was the subject of a blog about 7 or 8 months ago
*[2009-11-20 11:08:06] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: i really hope that .obj files will be one of the options
*[2009-11-20 11:08:07] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: Ll asked for comment then
*[2009-11-20 11:08:08] [[User:Uni Ninetails|Uni Ninetails]]: Qarl LOL
*[2009-11-20 11:08:17] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: can't talk about file formats.
*[2009-11-20 11:08:40] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Government in VWs is the worst idea in the history of bad ideas.
*[2009-11-20 11:08:40] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: I have a different idea that I discussed with Ardy after office hours.
*[2009-11-20 11:08:47] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: qarl. i also added that ll should have veto powers:)
*[2009-11-20 11:08:55] [[User:Katiri Hynes|Katiri Hynes]]: Could you say if common file formats are going to be used? Industry standard?
*[2009-11-20 11:09:08] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: heh... democracy doesn't work?
*[2009-11-20 11:09:22] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: Agreed, and I am unanimous in that (Morgaine the are you being served reference doesn't escape you I hope)
*[2009-11-20 11:09:25] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Qarl: who knows --- it's never been tried :P
*[2009-11-20 11:09:26] [[User:Uni Ninetails|Uni Ninetails]]: not if 500000 bots from some russian gulag vote.
*[2009-11-20 11:09:36] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: .obj files are very, very , very popular
*[2009-11-20 11:09:43] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: yeah... voting is a hard problem.
*[2009-11-20 11:09:55] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: u put all those 500k bots to pass an iq test
*[2009-11-20 11:09:58] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: :)
*[2009-11-20 11:09:59] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: maybe votes depend on how much land you own...
*[2009-11-20 11:10:08] [[User:Katiri Hynes|Katiri Hynes]]: Capitalism! One vote per L$!
*[2009-11-20 11:10:12] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: like shareholders in a corp.
*[2009-11-20 11:10:14] [[User:Uni Ninetails|Uni Ninetails]]: premiums over xxx days old?
*[2009-11-20 11:10:16] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: What if, instead, there was say, a 10 dollar setup fee for new accounts? You could have 14=30 day "trial periods" with limited inventory, that people could try SL for free. What's more, if a person is AR'd during that trial period, there is a deduction against the payment information they provided upon registering.
*[2009-11-20 11:10:33] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: Hmm
*[2009-11-20 11:10:37] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Well that's definitely not democracy, it's rule of the rich :-)
*[2009-11-20 11:10:46] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: yeah.
*[2009-11-20 11:10:56] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: sounds like that awful Adult sim game
*[2009-11-20 11:10:59] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: what is it?
*[2009-11-20 11:11:09] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: Red node district
*[2009-11-20 11:11:10] [[User:Melchizedek Blauvelt|Melchizedek Blauvelt]]: Whatever happened to meritocracy? :(
*[2009-11-20 11:11:13] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: nose*
*[2009-11-20 11:11:14] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: will sl become a medieval kingdom?
*[2009-11-20 11:11:22] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: anyway - that's what i'm hoping these opensim grids will do.
*[2009-11-20 11:11:24] [[User:Uni Ninetails|Uni Ninetails]]: feifdom
*[2009-11-20 11:11:28] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: That would bring in more money for LL, provide us far less worries with griefing, really let up on LL's AR team, and help us improve the quality of SL overall.
*[2009-11-20 11:12:33] [[User:Connecting to|Connecting to]]: in-world Voice Chat...
*[2009-11-20 11:12:34] [[User:Connected undefined|Connected undefined]]:
*[2009-11-20 11:12:34] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: hi
*[2009-11-20 11:12:35] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: Well, are free accounts such an issue?
*[2009-11-20 11:12:35] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: And yet you can retain the "free" aspect with the trial period accounts which helps bring in users.
*[2009-11-20 11:14:16] [[User:Disconnected from|Disconnected from]]: in-world Voice Chat
*[2009-11-20 11:16:05] [[User:Hug Attachment|Hug Attachment]]: (bottom): Usage: Face your target and Say '/hug [person's name]' or '/1hug [person's name]'
*[2009-11-20 11:16:05] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: I have lots of credit cards, and I'm still a jerk.
*[2009-11-20 11:16:05] [[User:Katiri Hynes|Katiri Hynes]]: I'm surprised LL hasn't jumped on the "5000L" card being available at Best Buy.
*[2009-11-20 11:16:06] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Premium is just beyond the pale. Imagine if in RL you got executed for failing to pay the rent.
*[2009-11-20 11:16:11] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: pre payed credit cards are the answer to those ppl who just want a throw away alt ;)
*[2009-11-20 11:16:12] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: Morgaine, yes this is interesting
*[2009-11-20 11:16:15] [[User:Connecting to|Connecting to]]: in-world Voice Chat...
*[2009-11-20 11:16:17] [[User:Connected undefined|Connected undefined]]:
*[2009-11-20 11:16:26] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: a flag on ARs that says "premium" give it more thought
*[2009-11-20 11:16:29] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Yes Jonit, free accounts are throw-aways for people who grief.
*[2009-11-20 11:16:41] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Sorry, I got disconnected.
*[2009-11-20 11:16:45] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: yes, and also ways to try for people who do not
*[2009-11-20 11:16:45] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: Free accounts are also a way for someone to play a game without paying for it.
*[2009-11-20 11:16:53] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: This isn';t a game
*[2009-11-20 11:17:21] [[User:Uni Ninetails|Uni Ninetails]]: free acounts get pop up adverts for inworld stores *ducks running
*[2009-11-20 11:17:22] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hadley: you sure you're in the right place?
*[2009-11-20 11:17:23] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Which is why we still have the trial accoutns, to keep that attractive aspect.
*[2009-11-20 11:17:24] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: If you want to make everyone pay, you end up with WoW
*[2009-11-20 11:17:24] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: you can't tar all with the same brush
*[2009-11-20 11:17:25] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: But it is a game.
*[2009-11-20 11:17:25] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: jonit. u want to say that if u have a premium account ucan geirf freely. lol
*[2009-11-20 11:17:25] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: I have seen throwaways repeatedly grief
*[2009-11-20 11:17:25] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: of course I have
*[2009-11-20 11:17:28] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: can we have biopsy on file instead of credit cards for age verification?
*[2009-11-20 11:17:28] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: After the trial period, people can pay the 10 one-time-fee to keep acccess.
*[2009-11-20 11:17:30] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: And as with all games, some take it more seriously than others.
*[2009-11-20 11:17:35] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: no, but it should be weighted to being a citizen
*[2009-11-20 11:17:45] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Sudden thought... if you charge for accounts, what happens to those of us creating accounts through RegAPI?
*[2009-11-20 11:18:01] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: that is taken care of
*[2009-11-20 11:18:05] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: You still could Xugu
*[2009-11-20 11:18:10] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: You'd just be setting up a trial period.
*[2009-11-20 11:18:11] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: and Reg API was a griefing open door
*[2009-11-20 11:18:12] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: You're still talking about how to make Basic *worse*!!! WTF
*[2009-11-20 11:18:23] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Talk about making Premium better!
*[2009-11-20 11:18:26] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: because of the lax way that people registered (not their fault)
*[2009-11-20 11:18:33] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: i am also more interested in the file formats, since isn't very likely that either qarl nor nyx can change policy:)
*[2009-11-20 11:18:48] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: After the trial period, you just require them to pay the one-time fee.
*[2009-11-20 11:18:56] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: Make premium better? Up the base amount of land from 512 to 1024
*[2009-11-20 11:19:00] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: heh.
*[2009-11-20 11:19:05] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: That way you can actually do something there
*[2009-11-20 11:19:05] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: OBJ uploads are likely, in time, Rex I apologise, this discussion was headed that way, I joined in
*[2009-11-20 11:19:15] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: I would rather set up a one-time fee for basic accounts, than see premium features improved just to make it attractive for people to upgrade.
*[2009-11-20 11:19:22] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: would be a lot more likely to go premium if it meant 3-6 months of transaction history, hint hint
*[2009-11-20 11:19:41] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: The one-time fee, the way I see it, has far more benefits for everyone involved, including LL.
*[2009-11-20 11:19:42] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: whatever file format we support - it'll be relatively easy to code support for others...
*[2009-11-20 11:19:43] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: And I would rather not have to pay when I need to create an account that I can use for when my work decides to dive in
*[2009-11-20 11:20:08] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Hadley, you wouldn't have to.
*[2009-11-20 11:20:12] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: You could create a free trial.
*[2009-11-20 11:20:28] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: You'd have 15-30 days before you would "have" to pay for it.
*[2009-11-20 11:20:28] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: Yes...and then if my work is in SL for longer than 30 days I just do it again?
*[2009-11-20 11:20:38] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Why not just create a permanent alt?
*[2009-11-20 11:20:50] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: 10 bucks isn't that much, even to me, and I penny-pinch, heh.
*[2009-11-20 11:21:00] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: And you may not be the ypical SL user.
*[2009-11-20 11:21:04] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: *typical
*[2009-11-20 11:21:25] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Depends on how you're defining typical.
*[2009-11-20 11:21:26] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Anything done to reduce the attraction of Basic is just asking for more and more to go to open grids. You need to make Premium more attractive, not discourage recruitment.
*[2009-11-20 11:21:30] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: No one wants an account that can lose (nuke) there inventory with no recorse.
*[2009-11-20 11:22:07] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: If they don't want their inventory nuked, they just have to pay the fee to sign up. You could save their inventory for X days after thr trial period ends.
*[2009-11-20 11:22:07] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: what is the stipend I get?
*[2009-11-20 11:22:09] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: 300
*[2009-11-20 11:22:10] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: ?
*[2009-11-20 11:22:13] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: a dollar a week
*[2009-11-20 11:22:14] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: brb guys...
*[2009-11-20 11:22:15] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: Exactly Morgaine. Any fee for a"basic" account means there is no more basic, it's all premium.
*[2009-11-20 11:22:35] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: I say increase allowed tier to accomodate a 1024 plot
*[2009-11-20 11:22:40] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yep. Using Premium to hold money and inventory is just a liability currently. The first thing you need to do to enhance Premium is remove the death penalty.
*[2009-11-20 11:22:41] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: that is a tangible reward
*[2009-11-20 11:22:42] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: Exactly Jonit.
*[2009-11-20 11:22:44] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Hadley, if you want a throw-away account, you can have one for 30 days. Which is a lot more than most people would need to decide on SL.
*[2009-11-20 11:23:06] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: You aren't paying -anything- outright with the proposed model.
*[2009-11-20 11:23:07] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: Yes, you've said that 500 times.
*[2009-11-20 11:23:07] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: if you increased land to 1024 on Premium
*[2009-11-20 11:23:10] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: you'd rake it in
*[2009-11-20 11:23:20] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: 512 doesn't cut it
*[2009-11-20 11:23:22] [[User:Melchizedek Blauvelt|Melchizedek Blauvelt]]: I saw someone mention a blacklisted item in some of my group chats, what exactly is it?
*[2009-11-20 11:23:26] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: You aren't justifying, you're simply trying to take the "I paid so should everyone else" road.
*[2009-11-20 11:23:36] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: nods
*[2009-11-20 11:23:40] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Hadley, I'm on a basic account, I have no premium account.
*[2009-11-20 11:23:46] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: I haven't paid, as you said.
*[2009-11-20 11:23:48] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: Despite what people say, SL is a game.
*[2009-11-20 11:23:48] [[User:Uni Ninetails|Uni Ninetails]]: and an increase to 1024 would hurt the estates no?
*[2009-11-20 11:23:50] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Nor am I using that logic.
*[2009-11-20 11:23:53] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: i heard that therer game cards that pople can buy at supermarkets(for 30, 60, 90 days) whay can't u buy one such cards for SL?
*[2009-11-20 11:23:59] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: but you have land, are you basic on principle?
*[2009-11-20 11:23:59] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: Some take it very seriously, some don't.
*[2009-11-20 11:24:06] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: nods to Uni "I was just thinking that, you'd see a massive backlash from the estates"
*[2009-11-20 11:24:14] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: Hadley, yes, this is the point also
*[2009-11-20 11:24:17] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: it's a VW
*[2009-11-20 11:24:23] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: So, even viewing it as a game, it makes sense :P
*[2009-11-20 11:24:23] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: outside our lives
*[2009-11-20 11:24:29] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: As technology progresses, services always offer more for the same price. SL hasn't, so it's getting progressively less interesting with time.
*[2009-11-20 11:24:30] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: Yes and no.
*[2009-11-20 11:24:32] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: People find something they like in here, they get their friends to play.
*[2009-11-20 11:24:42] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: A fee decreses the subscriber base.
*[2009-11-20 11:24:43] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: Period.
*[2009-11-20 11:24:44] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: That's one of the major ways MMOs do their recruitment.
*[2009-11-20 11:24:46] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: and charging from accounts would be a problem for us because we like to bring students in for part of their courses. That's not of absolutely no value to us, but it's certainly not a consequential amount per student
*[2009-11-20 11:24:50] [[User:Uni Ninetails|Uni Ninetails]]: It is an entertainment platfrom in which i have a vested business interest.
*[2009-11-20 11:24:52] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: That wasn't true for WoW lol
*[2009-11-20 11:25:09] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: We've actually been using OpenSim, but if it makes the Lindens feel any better the physics model keeps crashing on us :(
*[2009-11-20 11:25:12] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: WoW charges for every account, but offers limited free trials.
*[2009-11-20 11:25:19] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: They have an ENORMOUS user base.
*[2009-11-20 11:25:28] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: so does SL
*[2009-11-20 11:25:29] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Most MMOs follow that same model.
*[2009-11-20 11:25:36] [[User:Katiri Hynes|Katiri Hynes]]: WOW is a 500LB gorilla... you can't compare anything to it.
*[2009-11-20 11:25:37] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: Yes, and most of them suck.
*[2009-11-20 11:25:38] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: but repeat monthlies are a low percentage
*[2009-11-20 11:25:39] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: SL's is a fraction of the MMO platforms.
*[2009-11-20 11:25:40] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: why is that?
*[2009-11-20 11:25:43] [[User:Melchizedek Blauvelt|Melchizedek Blauvelt]]: The WoW user base was there before free trials
*[2009-11-20 11:26:09] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: wow, doesn't have lag does it:)
*[2009-11-20 11:26:17] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: so ok, why did WoW do it?
*[2009-11-20 11:26:23] [[User:Uni Ninetails|Uni Ninetails]]: wow has static assets.
*[2009-11-20 11:26:25] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: That's a matter of opinion Hadley, but the point is, people will pay a one-time fee, just as they are willing to pay a -higher- monthly fee for something they enjoy.
*[2009-11-20 11:26:29] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: because the platform gives reasons to be there
*[2009-11-20 11:26:31] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: SL is flat
*[2009-11-20 11:26:31] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: WoW has fanatics, even before it launch. SL has prok.
*[2009-11-20 11:26:36] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: you have to make your own reasons
*[2009-11-20 11:26:40] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: you have to work at it
*[2009-11-20 11:26:49] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: that's exclusivity?
*[2009-11-20 11:27:05] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: I wuv prok
*[2009-11-20 11:27:06] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: Jonit raises a valid point.
*[2009-11-20 11:27:07] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Basic - one time fee. Premium - 7X larger annual fee - not the same thing :P
*[2009-11-20 11:27:19] [[User:Uni Ninetails|Uni Ninetails]]: wonders if qarl cded his viewer to mke a loud noise when his name is mentioed and is currently coding :)
*[2009-11-20 11:27:32] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: WoW has a point beyond standing around...built it.
*[2009-11-20 11:27:35] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: Sl is flat
*[2009-11-20 11:27:39] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: SL, you have to invent every path you take.
*[2009-11-20 11:27:45] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: you are not given dragonish quests
*[2009-11-20 11:27:52] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: you are given a blank canvas
*[2009-11-20 11:27:55] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: The same principle applies: if people enjoy it, they will pay (once) for it.
*[2009-11-20 11:27:58] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: this is difficult for many
*[2009-11-20 11:27:58] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: hey - sorry bout that.
*[2009-11-20 11:28:00] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: Maybe.
*[2009-11-20 11:28:02] [[User:Uni Ninetails|Uni Ninetails]]: lol
*[2009-11-20 11:28:04] [[User:GoodCode Writer|GoodCode Writer]]: lol
*[2009-11-20 11:28:07] [[User:Uni Ninetails|Uni Ninetails]]: you did didnt ya Qarl XD
*[2009-11-20 11:28:07] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: hello Wut
*[2009-11-20 11:28:12] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: *shrugs* I would have, but I didn't have to.
*[2009-11-20 11:28:14] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: What the fee does is get rid of the casual visitors.
*[2009-11-20 11:28:19] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: wb
*[2009-11-20 11:28:30] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: Hadley, and many here
*[2009-11-20 11:28:32] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Hardly, Hadley - the fee isn't produced up front.
*[2009-11-20 11:28:32] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: The person who gets on once or twice a month and won't show up to office hours.
*[2009-11-20 11:28:36] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: is a pain right nw to pay foryour account
*[2009-11-20 11:28:37] [[User:Katiri Hynes|Katiri Hynes]]: fee also makes people accountable for their actions to a degree.
*[2009-11-20 11:28:37] [[User:Wut Moorlord|Wut Moorlord]]: hi all, sorry I had to switch from radegast for fear of sitting on someone's head :)
*[2009-11-20 11:28:40] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: you were casual visitors once
*[2009-11-20 11:28:43] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: hi wut
*[2009-11-20 11:28:46] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: The people's friends who invite them will say, "Trhe trial is free! You can stop if you like!"
*[2009-11-20 11:28:48] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: So how can Premium be improved? So far we have 1) No death penalty, 2) More land. Anything else?
*[2009-11-20 11:28:51] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: was my head?
*[2009-11-20 11:29:01] [[User:Wut Moorlord|Wut Moorlord]]: sorry :)
*[2009-11-20 11:29:06] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: that sums up my views
*[2009-11-20 11:29:12] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: 1 and 2 Morgaine
*[2009-11-20 11:29:20] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: why not sell game cards for SL at supermarkets:)
*[2009-11-20 11:29:21] [[User:Melchizedek Blauvelt|Melchizedek Blauvelt]]: 3) blacklisting?
*[2009-11-20 11:29:26] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: the democracy element is wunworkable
*[2009-11-20 11:29:26] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: The people's friends are NOT going to say, "The trial is free, but oh no, you have to pay 10 bucks in 30 days if you want to keep your account)
*[2009-11-20 11:29:31] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: LL pulled town halls
*[2009-11-20 11:29:32] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: 4) voting rights. :)
*[2009-11-20 11:29:37] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: Ok, we get it, Sebastean. You want to require payment. Now let's move on to improving Premium.
*[2009-11-20 11:29:39] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: A decent stripend so all the preioum users can support all the content creaters here.
*[2009-11-20 11:29:52] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: Hmmm, Qarl, that is overextending the platform
*[2009-11-20 11:29:57] [[User:GoodCode Writer|GoodCode Writer]]: ha-ha
*[2009-11-20 11:30:00] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Hadley, there are benefits to requiring a fee that I think ought to be considered, which you apparently just want to brush over.
*[2009-11-20 11:30:05] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: you cannot make a homogenous democracy of a paid service
*[2009-11-20 11:30:20] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: Actually, I'm trying to advance someone else's question without you shouting them down.
*[2009-11-20 11:30:30] [[User:GoodCode Writer|GoodCode Writer]]: Parameters
*[2009-11-20 11:30:35] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: Since you're trying to make everything come back to a on-time fee.
*[2009-11-20 11:30:45] [[User:Wut Moorlord|Wut Moorlord]]: hmm. sorry, i missed the beginning what is the new suggested fee, and is it a one-off payment?
*[2009-11-20 11:30:49] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: qarl, voting rights for what?
*[2009-11-20 11:30:57] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: why can't that one time fee be a game card at a supermarket?
*[2009-11-20 11:30:59] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: is is the provider consumer model, not a true democracy
*[2009-11-20 11:31:05] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: To help combat griefting, limit basic accounts for 30 days or so. Even expand on that to severl level of restrictions.
*[2009-11-20 11:31:33] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Hadley, I've not been shouting anyone down - my caps button isn't stuck ;) I've been replying to your arguments on the debate.
*[2009-11-20 11:31:33] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: Limit as in what they can do, not limit the time the account is active.
*[2009-11-20 11:31:45] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: Dear God...why not require everyone wear a taser collar so the estate owner can shock the griefer?
*[2009-11-20 11:31:50] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: we selecta a local goverment, ll has vetoing powers:)
*[2009-11-20 11:31:57] [[User:Uni Ninetails|Uni Ninetails]]: free acount : 30days. Basic account: as is BUT requires a credit card on file. Premium: etc...
*[2009-11-20 11:31:58] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: Hadley, extreme, but yes
*[2009-11-20 11:32:08] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: Uni, seems ok
*[2009-11-20 11:32:16] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: but PIOF not money
*[2009-11-20 11:32:16] [[User:Wut Moorlord|Wut Moorlord]]: Uni, i'm ok with that
*[2009-11-20 11:32:18] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Exactly Uni
*[2009-11-20 11:32:22] [[User:Uni Ninetails|Uni Ninetails]]: :)
*[2009-11-20 11:32:28] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: just a free I am who I am registration
*[2009-11-20 11:32:32] [[User:Uni Ninetails|Uni Ninetails]]: then as Morg says basic doesnt get humped.
*[2009-11-20 11:32:39] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Qarl: you're going to get utterly hammered if you're seriously considering making voting rights depend on money. Get ready for it. Lots of thing are "for money", but voting rights have always been extended to the whole population in modern times. I don't recommend you go there.
*[2009-11-20 11:32:41] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: has anybody found out if there is an actual baton "i get to annoy sl residents" this month that gets passed around linden lab? :P
*[2009-11-20 11:32:46] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: That's how you stop griefing, not by cutting off someone's abilities because they don't want to put credit information in the hands of a company.
*[2009-11-20 11:32:59] [[User:Katiri Hynes|Katiri Hynes]]: Morg - that's how the US congress works!
*[2009-11-20 11:33:00] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: i am also fre and i don't grief. sayig that all free accounts r griefers is an insult:(
*[2009-11-20 11:33:01] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: Qarl is tablin that?, well yes, he seems to be
*[2009-11-20 11:33:09] [[User:Wut Moorlord|Wut Moorlord]]: lol katiri
*[2009-11-20 11:33:13] [[User:Maggie Darwin|Maggie Darwin]]: They're able to achieve higher parallelism than that; there's no mutex.
*[2009-11-20 11:33:15] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: Especially given the number of reputable companies that lose credit info because they have crap security.
*[2009-11-20 11:33:19] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Well, except I was thinking of a setup fee. The credit card on file, though, would help achieve the same thing.
*[2009-11-20 11:33:22] [[User:Maggie Darwin|Maggie Darwin]]: /pose seiza
*[2009-11-20 11:33:23] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Katiri -- nobody claimed that Congress is democratic
*[2009-11-20 11:33:30] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: it is an insult, but anonimity is the mechanism whereby non PIOF users can grief
*[2009-11-20 11:33:42] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: No, it wouldn't. Seb.
*[2009-11-20 11:33:49] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: so there has to be accountability
*[2009-11-20 11:33:50] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: as in RL
*[2009-11-20 11:33:51] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: I don't trust any corporation with my credit card number
*[2009-11-20 11:33:54] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: to be who you are
*[2009-11-20 11:34:00] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Seb: no chance
*[2009-11-20 11:34:02] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: but that does not extent to paying to prive it
*[2009-11-20 11:34:03] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: BEcause there is no backlash on them if they lose it to a hack.
*[2009-11-20 11:34:10] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: prove*
*[2009-11-20 11:34:15] [[User:Galactus Crimson|Galactus Crimson]]: UhOh O.o*
*[2009-11-20 11:34:15] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: So use paypal *shrugs*
*[2009-11-20 11:34:25] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: Same issue.
*[2009-11-20 11:34:26] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: inadmissable
*[2009-11-20 11:34:33] [[User:Maggie Darwin|Maggie Darwin]]: Um....you mustr trust *some* corporation with yout CC number....or you never actually use it.
*[2009-11-20 11:34:34] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: they can then do the same.
*[2009-11-20 11:34:35] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: for what i know those that grief can very well be paying account that ike togief for lolz:)
*[2009-11-20 11:34:42] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: well ok ok Sebastean, Paypal does provide a legal pepertrail
*[2009-11-20 11:34:45] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Paypal gives you throw-away credit card numbers to use in online shopping to prevent that very thing.
*[2009-11-20 11:34:59] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: And when their database is taken?
*[2009-11-20 11:35:01] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: that like to grief for lolz*
*[2009-11-20 11:35:10] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: You have a very pessimistic view Hadley :)
*[2009-11-20 11:35:15] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: A lot of credit card companies allow merchants to set up recurring payments which don't require keeping the number, from what I've seen...
*[2009-11-20 11:35:20] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: I have a very realistic view, sparky.
*[2009-11-20 11:35:35] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: That you dont' realize that means you have been very fortunate.
*[2009-11-20 11:35:42] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: Make preioum more attractive and make basic less attractive to grifters.
*[2009-11-20 11:35:48] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: if you make it more difficult to register a throwaway
*[2009-11-20 11:35:53] [[User:Al Sonic|Al Sonic]]: I believe Hadley's just looking to make sure any said security failure would be punished <.<
*[2009-11-20 11:35:55] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: That's one way to look at it Hadley. Personally I take a very different "realistic' view.
*[2009-11-20 11:36:02] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Ideas for improving Premium: 1) No death penalty, 2) More land, 3) Blacklisting (what?), 4) Voting rights ..... moar?
*[2009-11-20 11:36:02] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: most grieferes (aside from teh hardcore) will move on
*[2009-11-20 11:36:16] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: Besides, if you dont' want griefing on your lands, don't allow access to anyone who isn't PIOF
*[2009-11-20 11:36:18] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: already there
*[2009-11-20 11:36:19] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: 3?
*[2009-11-20 11:36:23] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: explain 3 Morgaine
*[2009-11-20 11:36:31] [[User:Melchizedek Blauvelt|Melchizedek Blauvelt]]: 5) make mesh import available to premium members only
*[2009-11-20 11:36:37] [[User:Wut Moorlord|Wut Moorlord]]: Mel :P
*[2009-11-20 11:36:40] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: No no no
*[2009-11-20 11:36:41] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: I already don't Hadley - I was referring to preventing greifing on more public areas ;)
*[2009-11-20 11:36:44] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Jonit: 3) is not my idea, someone else needs to explain it
*[2009-11-20 11:36:50] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: Joint, 3=exitsting land control that limit to payment on file.
*[2009-11-20 11:36:53] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: Yes I hoe they do
*[2009-11-20 11:36:56] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: melchizedek. u must be pulling my leg
*[2009-11-20 11:36:58] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: You can't stop somebody from being an asshole, no matter what you do.
*[2009-11-20 11:37:01] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: pardon the language.
*[2009-11-20 11:37:04] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: Hmmm, ok I see it
*[2009-11-20 11:37:07] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: someone else suggested 6) higher stipend
*[2009-11-20 11:37:08] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: peripheral
*[2009-11-20 11:37:08] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: But you can boot them for it :P
*[2009-11-20 11:37:14] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: and as for content creation limits
*[2009-11-20 11:37:15] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: NO!
*[2009-11-20 11:37:25] [[User:Melchizedek Blauvelt|Melchizedek Blauvelt]]: I noticed people asking why they couldn't equip X, they got a message X was a blacklisted item
*[2009-11-20 11:37:32] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: You could, of course, make mainland premium-only (and give private estate owners tools to block basic accounts if they chooose)?
*[2009-11-20 11:37:38] [[User:Maggie Darwin|Maggie Darwin]]: /pose
*[2009-11-20 11:37:56] [[User:Melchizedek Blauvelt|Melchizedek Blauvelt]]: The response was the item was blacklisted because it was copybotted and banned from the grid
*[2009-11-20 11:38:14] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: fine, that is for LL to work to
*[2009-11-20 11:38:19] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: I wouldn't really like that Xugu. It kind of opens it up to a lot of discrimination.
*[2009-11-20 11:38:28] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: there is one thing thataffects everybody. i am talking about monies
*[2009-11-20 11:38:30] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: I don't want to make Basic accounts all suspect of bad things by default.
*[2009-11-20 11:38:34] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: And requiring payment to exist doesn't?
*[2009-11-20 11:38:51] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: you can't ghettoise (sp) SL
*[2009-11-20 11:38:52] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: No, it doesn't :P
*[2009-11-20 11:38:54] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Ideas for improving Premium: 1) No death penalty, 2) More land, 3) Blacklisting on your parcel, 4) Voting rights, 5) Mesh import allowed, 6) Higher stipend
*[2009-11-20 11:39:12] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Now who's bringing it back to fee'd accounts? ;)
*[2009-11-20 11:39:16] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: if u have to buy a game card and u grief u loose the monies
*[2009-11-20 11:39:20] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: cancel Stipend
*[2009-11-20 11:39:33] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: it equates to giving you back what you paid
*[2009-11-20 11:39:35] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Higher stipden I could see.
*[2009-11-20 11:39:36] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: pointless
*[2009-11-20 11:39:44] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Yep, someone mentioned that.
*[2009-11-20 11:39:45] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: lower premium costs
*[2009-11-20 11:40:07] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Jonit: it's just a means of automatic conversion of some $ to L$, hence helps merchants
*[2009-11-20 11:40:27] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: it is silly that I pay LL 72 dollars a year annual and get umm whatever it is 50 back
*[2009-11-20 11:40:29] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: Merchants should be helping themselves, not expecting Lenin Labs to stimulate them.
*[2009-11-20 11:40:29] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: A while back, I recieved a survey for merchanting on SLX
*[2009-11-20 11:40:39] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: let me pay 12
*[2009-11-20 11:40:43] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: They talked about setting up a featured item mall, having access to SLX in-world vendors, etc.
*[2009-11-20 11:40:46] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: and leave it at that
*[2009-11-20 11:40:47] [[User:Maggie Darwin|Maggie Darwin]]: Crap. How much would I have to pay for a viewer that doesn't leak memory?
*[2009-11-20 11:40:57] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: Maggie... a lot ;)
*[2009-11-20 11:40:59] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: Well, they are free
*[2009-11-20 11:41:06] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: They just aren't distributed by LL
*[2009-11-20 11:41:09] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: lol Maggie, not gonna add 7) Viewer that works ^_^
*[2009-11-20 11:41:12] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Perhaps they should make that accessiblet o premium accounts.
*[2009-11-20 11:41:14] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: wut wut?
*[2009-11-20 11:41:23] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: umm deference to Wut if he is here
*[2009-11-20 11:41:29] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: they do exist
*[2009-11-20 11:41:32] [[User:Wut Moorlord|Wut Moorlord]]: waves
*[2009-11-20 11:41:35] [[User:Zenvendof Zeno|Zenvendof Zeno]]: Wut
*[2009-11-20 11:41:35] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: Hai
*[2009-11-20 11:41:36] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: !!
*[2009-11-20 11:41:37] [[User:Maggie Darwin|Maggie Darwin]]: Wut if he is?
*[2009-11-20 11:41:37] [[User:Zenvendof Zeno|Zenvendof Zeno]]: yoohooo
*[2009-11-20 11:41:38] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Wut wut!
*[2009-11-20 11:41:41] [[User:Maggie Darwin|Maggie Darwin]]: *giggle*
*[2009-11-20 11:41:45] [[User:GoodCode Writer|GoodCode Writer]]: what about prople who have basic account and a lot of money
*[2009-11-20 11:41:52] [[User:Reverend Upshaw|Reverend Upshaw]]: hi folks
*[2009-11-20 11:41:52] [[User:GoodCode Writer|GoodCode Writer]]: money - L$
*[2009-11-20 11:41:58] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: hi Rev
*[2009-11-20 11:42:05] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: hi
*[2009-11-20 11:42:06] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: They will lose if they don't pay their taxes, goodcode
*[2009-11-20 11:42:11] [[User:Zenvendof Zeno|Zenvendof Zeno]]: oops
*[2009-11-20 11:42:13] [[User:Maggie Darwin|Maggie Darwin]]: *I* have a basic account, even though my family owns an island sim.
*[2009-11-20 11:42:32] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Same with me Maggie. I share an island with two friends of mine.
*[2009-11-20 11:42:34] [[User:Maggie Darwin|Maggie Darwin]]: Because I would get zero benefit from upgrading.
*[2009-11-20 11:42:36] [[User:Uni Ninetails|Uni Ninetails]]: hell i have a basic and have a fullsim. by proxy
*[2009-11-20 11:42:36] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: ummm, anyine else noticed that Qarl and Nyx are no longer contributing?
*[2009-11-20 11:42:46] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: nods
*[2009-11-20 11:42:46] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: this is becoming another forum thread
*[2009-11-20 11:42:48] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: there were contributing?
*[2009-11-20 11:42:53] [[User:Uni Ninetails|Uni Ninetails]]: cause were offtopic?
*[2009-11-20 11:42:53] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
*[2009-11-20 11:42:53] [[User:Wut Moorlord|Wut Moorlord]]: they've nipped off for a coffee
*[2009-11-20 11:42:54] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: heh.
*[2009-11-20 11:42:55] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: Someone TP in Ann
*[2009-11-20 11:42:57] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: i'm listening.
*[2009-11-20 11:42:58] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: well at least being here
*[2009-11-20 11:43:02] [[User:Katiri Hynes|Katiri Hynes]]: lol @ Latif
*[2009-11-20 11:43:02] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: Hai
*[2009-11-20 11:43:14] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: Ann cannot tp!
*[2009-11-20 11:43:14] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: They don't want to get their fingers burned XD
*[2009-11-20 11:43:19] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: I don't blame them.
*[2009-11-20 11:43:22] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: it's the new LL policy :) cheese in the ears and recite lalalalalala
*[2009-11-20 11:43:22] [[User:Zenvendof Zeno|Zenvendof Zeno]]: ahhhh
*[2009-11-20 11:43:23] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: i think the lindens prsent r enjoying the show
*[2009-11-20 11:43:24] [[User:Maggie Darwin|Maggie Darwin]]: Hey, let's all TP to Harrington while thy're not looking.
*[2009-11-20 11:43:26] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: nor do I
*[2009-11-20 11:43:38] [[User:Zenvendof Zeno|Zenvendof Zeno]]: May I ask what's the official topic?
*[2009-11-20 11:43:41] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: morgaine? running summary
*[2009-11-20 11:43:53] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: i think we're talking about accounts.
*[2009-11-20 11:43:56] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: and I agree with all except the silly pay and get back stipend
*[2009-11-20 11:44:00] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: but is very likey thatll already has plan
*[2009-11-20 11:44:00] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: That's a nice generic summary :)
*[2009-11-20 11:44:00] [[User:Maggie Darwin|Maggie Darwin]]: [11:22
*[2009-11-20 11:44:09] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: Whether to charge a one-time fee for basic and how to improve premium.
*[2009-11-20 11:44:11] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Since Qarl is working on a voting machine to make Premium more attractive (^_^ ^_^ ^_^), this is very much on topic :-)
*[2009-11-20 11:44:15] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: oh dear.
*[2009-11-20 11:44:17] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: heh.
*[2009-11-20 11:44:18] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: I wouldn't quite call it the "death" of free accounts :P
*[2009-11-20 11:44:19] [[User:Zenvendof Zeno|Zenvendof Zeno]]: Maggie, thanks
*[2009-11-20 11:44:21] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: YOU!
*[2009-11-20 11:44:24] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: Linden!
*[2009-11-20 11:44:30] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: that ws whateverybdy wastalking about
*[2009-11-20 11:44:32] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: make it open source please :)
*[2009-11-20 11:44:37] [[User:Maggie Darwin|Maggie Darwin]]: A "voting machine"?
*[2009-11-20 11:44:38] [[User:Zenvendof Zeno|Zenvendof Zeno]]: So, what's this thing about death of free accounts
*[2009-11-20 11:44:45] [[User:Maggie Darwin|Maggie Darwin]]: How very Prok.
*[2009-11-20 11:44:48] [[User:Katiri Hynes|Katiri Hynes]]: Qarl = Diebold?
*[2009-11-20 11:44:50] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
*[2009-11-20 11:44:51] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: I had been proposing a one-time $10 setup fee.
*[2009-11-20 11:44:51] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: (Prok has that)
*[2009-11-20 11:44:55] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: lol
*[2009-11-20 11:44:55] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: (I voted)
*[2009-11-20 11:44:58] [[User:Zenvendof Zeno|Zenvendof Zeno]]: can Lindens elaborate on that?
* http://slurl.com/secondlife/Ambleside/57/107/26 (Starts in 15 minutes)
*[2009-11-20 11:45:01] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: godwin!111
*[2009-11-20 11:45:02] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: The biggest thing to make premium more attractive, I think, is to increase the amount of land at no increased tier.
*[2009-11-20 11:45:02] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Something you'd pay after a 30 day trial
*[2009-11-20 11:45:15] [[User:Uni Ninetails|Uni Ninetails]]: as this OH devolves into a total clusterfuck
*[2009-11-20 11:45:20] [[User:Melchizedek Blauvelt|Melchizedek Blauvelt]]: Just make future features more accessible to premium accounts and leave basic accounts as they are
*[2009-11-20 11:45:21] [[User:Reverend Upshaw|Reverend Upshaw]]: i wouldn't be opposed to a one time fee
*[2009-11-20 11:45:21] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Haha
*[2009-11-20 11:45:22] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: That was the "death" of free accounts.
*[2009-11-20 11:45:33] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: I agree Mel.
*[2009-11-20 11:45:41] [[User:Zenvendof Zeno|Zenvendof Zeno]]: a fee to create an account?
*[2009-11-20 11:45:46] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: Rev, I have to disagree
*[2009-11-20 11:45:48] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Yes Zen
*[2009-11-20 11:45:49] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: After a trial.
*[2009-11-20 11:45:53] [[User:Zenvendof Zeno|Zenvendof Zeno]]: you see a massive upsurge right before the fee comes on
*[2009-11-20 11:45:55] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: Much like drugs. the first hit is free.
*[2009-11-20 11:45:56] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: I am not opposed to a one time registration
*[2009-11-20 11:45:57] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: After a 30 day or so trial
*[2009-11-20 11:45:58] [[User:Zenvendof Zeno|Zenvendof Zeno]]: with free account registeration
*[2009-11-20 11:46:01] [[User:Zenvendof Zeno|Zenvendof Zeno]]: i bet with u
*[2009-11-20 11:46:03] [[User:Larry Massey|Larry Massey]]: it would help if someone could articulate waht is the "problem" being solved?
*[2009-11-20 11:46:04] [[User:Maggie Darwin|Maggie Darwin]]: I'd say make a basic account free for 90 days. If you're still in at that point you're hooked.
*[2009-11-20 11:46:06] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: whether you need money for it is anoher matter
*[2009-11-20 11:46:08] [[User:Zenvendof Zeno|Zenvendof Zeno]]: and there will be a black market selling them
*[2009-11-20 11:46:12] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: people here are forgetting that not everybody lives in the usa, and has access to credit cards and payment methods and such
*[2009-11-20 11:46:14] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: Zenvendof - people are just throwing around ideas. there's no official policy discussion here.
*[2009-11-20 11:46:14] [[User:Zenvendof Zeno|Zenvendof Zeno]]: outside SL
*[2009-11-20 11:46:17] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: heh, that make it so only grifter use trail accounts.
*[2009-11-20 11:46:20] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: and I do not think you should need to
*[2009-11-20 11:46:37] [[User:Al Sonic|Al Sonic]]: In the hypothetical scenario, I'd give up the US$10... I'd have to think about it for my two alts.
*[2009-11-20 11:46:39] [[User:Larry Massey|Larry Massey]]: before getting into the "how it could be hacked and what counter-measures to put into place to avoid the hacks"
*[2009-11-20 11:46:40] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: I would like tp propose a change to Sebastean's idea, if I may....Cancel the "upgrade" fee if they purchase L$.
*[2009-11-20 11:46:44] [[User:Zenvendof Zeno|Zenvendof Zeno]]: Qarl, ok thanks :)
*[2009-11-20 11:46:51] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Free accounts are the future of SL, funnily enough. I think Premium accounts will disappear once there is competition, as they're a disincentive to recruitment. It'll follow the web model --- all recruitment is free.
*[2009-11-20 11:46:58] [[User:Maggie Darwin|Maggie Darwin]]: I do grow weary of people complaining about VATs and monetary controls. Go complain to your government.
*[2009-11-20 11:47:00] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Free registration - 30 days of access - pay 10 bucks to continue (one time) OR keep free accounts - improve benefits to premium users so that ugprading becomes more attractive
*[2009-11-20 11:47:19] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: Can I get a re-statement, please, of what's causing this ....? It seems like there are sweeping changes across SL mostly at the same time. Was there some exec-level directive about cost cutting, or increased revenue, or... what's the intent here?
*[2009-11-20 11:47:19] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Seb: you're way out in limbo land there :-)
*[2009-11-20 11:47:20] [[User:Zenvendof Zeno|Zenvendof Zeno]]: Maggie, you clearly not from the EU.....
*[2009-11-20 11:47:28] [[User:Maggie Darwin|Maggie Darwin]]: Damned right I'm not.
*[2009-11-20 11:47:34] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Seb: you're trying to *reduce* recruitment :-)
*[2009-11-20 11:47:47] [[User:Zenvendof Zeno|Zenvendof Zeno]]: Maggie, welll so you not playing 17.5% vat :)
*[2009-11-20 11:47:57] [[User:Uni Ninetails|Uni Ninetails]]: shit vat goes up in jan doesnt it gah
*[2009-11-20 11:48:03] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: complain to your government...they impose the tax.
*[2009-11-20 11:48:05] [[User:Zenvendof Zeno|Zenvendof Zeno]]: ah huh
*[2009-11-20 11:48:09] [[User:Zenvendof Zeno|Zenvendof Zeno]]: we don complain
*[2009-11-20 11:48:11] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: any more ideas to improve the premium package?
*[2009-11-20 11:48:13] [[User:Zenvendof Zeno|Zenvendof Zeno]]: it's a fact of life
*[2009-11-20 11:48:14] [[User:Maggie Darwin|Maggie Darwin]]: No, I'm not. Go complain to the government that's collecting it.
*[2009-11-20 11:48:20] [[User:Zenvendof Zeno|Zenvendof Zeno]]: we have freebie health care
*[2009-11-20 11:48:20] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: whispers: I don't see it as reducing it - people will think 30 days is a "
*[2009-11-20 11:48:23] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: long time"
*[2009-11-20 11:48:33] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: Sebastean
*[2009-11-20 11:48:33] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: They'll probably expect to throw it away before then.
*[2009-11-20 11:48:34] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: for premium, separate mute list for avatars and items.
*[2009-11-20 11:48:40] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: Mine is unmanageable on both fronts.
*[2009-11-20 11:48:47] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: a wave of <30 greifing as they do now
*[2009-11-20 11:48:53] [[User:Zenvendof Zeno|Zenvendof Zeno]]: So why death of freebie accounts, why charge?
*[2009-11-20 11:48:54] [[User:Uni Ninetails|Uni Ninetails]]: Qarl see ***** blog for mine.
*[2009-11-20 11:48:57] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Someone mentioned "more groups for premium accounts" yesterday
*[2009-11-20 11:48:57] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: [11:48
*[2009-11-20 11:48:57] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Help Qarl folks
*[2009-11-20 11:49:31] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: 1. More land 2. Lower monthly and no stipend
*[2009-11-20 11:49:35] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: That's the best way.
*[2009-11-20 11:49:38] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Qarl, how about not banning people who forget to update payment info. Right now permium account is more dangereous to have than free one
*[2009-11-20 11:49:49] [[User:Larry Massey|Larry Massey]]: right now the only attraction of "premium" is "buying land"
*[2009-11-20 11:49:53] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: you miss one payment, your account gets suspended
*[2009-11-20 11:49:55] [[User:Larry Massey|Larry Massey]]: and land buying on the mainland is a mystery
*[2009-11-20 11:49:55] [[User:Reverend Upshaw|Reverend Upshaw]]: that's a good idea latif
*[2009-11-20 11:50:01] [[User:Wut Moorlord|Wut Moorlord]]: hmm. yeah. how about some way to freeze premium goodies if you forget to pay
* http://slurl.com/secondlife/Ambleside/57/107/26 (Starts in 10 minutes)
*[2009-11-20 11:50:02] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: Indeed, Latif.
*[2009-11-20 11:50:03] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: more groups is a good idea - we limit groups now b/c they are too "heavy" a load. but if you're paying for it - i can see us upping the number.
*[2009-11-20 11:50:04] [[User:Larry Massey|Larry Massey]]: which land is good, which isn't, is completely opaque
*[2009-11-20 11:50:05] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: 7) OpenID ! (Both OpenID Provider and OpenID Relying Party)
*[2009-11-20 11:50:08] [[User:Wut Moorlord|Wut Moorlord]]: rather than booting you off the face of the planet
*[2009-11-20 11:50:08] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: Some sort of grace period, with reminders.
*[2009-11-20 11:50:12] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: instead of auto-downgrade to free
*[2009-11-20 11:50:20] [[User:Al Sonic|Al Sonic]]: There's the aforementioned stuff that involves hard coding work like raising group limits >_>
*[2009-11-20 11:50:27] [[User:Reverend Upshaw|Reverend Upshaw]]: openid is a great idea
*[2009-11-20 11:50:32] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: a very good friend of mine got their account deleted that way :(
*[2009-11-20 11:50:37] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: I like openID too
*[2009-11-20 11:50:40] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: I think the best premium is citizenship
*[2009-11-20 11:50:44] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: a long time user of SL, since 2006
*[2009-11-20 11:50:47] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: no arbitrary bans
*[2009-11-20 11:50:55] [[User:Al Sonic|Al Sonic]]: Cool thought Morgaine.
*[2009-11-20 11:50:58] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: if people premium
*[2009-11-20 11:51:00] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: they invest
*[2009-11-20 11:51:07] [[User:Larry Massey|Larry Massey]]: am I wrong about the land issue as the primary advantage?
*[2009-11-20 11:51:10] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: they should not be banned willy nilly
*[2009-11-20 11:51:16] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Ideas for improving Premium: 1) No death penalty, 2) More land, 3) Blacklisting on your parcel, 4) Voting rights, 5) Mesh import allowed, 6) Higher stipend, 7) OpenID (OP and RP), 8) More groups
*[2009-11-20 11:51:20] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: so a court system for premiums?
*[2009-11-20 11:51:29] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: that's 1 on Morgaine's list
*[2009-11-20 11:51:30] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: yes
*[2009-11-20 11:51:38] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: not court
*[2009-11-20 11:51:40] [[User:Maggie Darwin|Maggie Darwin]]: [http://paulgraham.com/apple.html]
*[2009-11-20 11:51:41] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: elected judges for the court system?
*[2009-11-20 11:51:44] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: I doubt LL want to go that far
*[2009-11-20 11:51:46] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: voting!
*[2009-11-20 11:51:50] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: How about premiums can buck up their full-perm or created inventory?
*[2009-11-20 11:51:51] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: what about if a premium griefs they have to pay a fine:)
*[2009-11-20 11:51:56] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: (I'm not advocating all of these, just summarizing people's ideas)
*[2009-11-20 11:51:57] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: gah, back up
*[2009-11-20 11:52:00] [[User:Bronson Blackadder|Bronson Blackadder]]: the more land you have the higher the stipend... with a cap
*[2009-11-20 11:52:01] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: byt GTeam need to have a flag up to investigate further at least
*[2009-11-20 11:52:05] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: and self-created
*[2009-11-20 11:52:09] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: how you work it, I dunno
*[2009-11-20 11:52:17] [[User:Melchizedek Blauvelt|Melchizedek Blauvelt]]: I'll sure be nice to you Rex
*[2009-11-20 11:52:17] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: kill stipend and recuce tier
*[2009-11-20 11:52:18] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: just not getting your account deleted if you are premium and change credit card would be a good start lol
*[2009-11-20 11:52:19] [[User:Larry Massey|Larry Massey]]: well, before *changing* the package, how about making the current benefits easier to access?
*[2009-11-20 11:52:20] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: such fine should grow if more griefeing is doe;)
*[2009-11-20 11:52:36] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: but what I object to is the landscape appearing different to new and old residents
*[2009-11-20 11:52:48] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: paying a fine is better than havin your account canceled:)
*[2009-11-20 11:52:51] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: lanscape?
*[2009-11-20 11:52:53] [[User:Maggie Darwin|Maggie Darwin]]: Anything that involves "voting" will be a non-stop drama generator.
*[2009-11-20 11:53:01] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: I woant a day old av to think hey cool, and be able to create content the same as I do
*[2009-11-20 11:53:11] [[User:Larry Massey|Larry Massey]]: i think griefing is on the margin, you want to make premium more attractive to everyone
*[2009-11-20 11:53:14] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: Maggie - agreed. democracy is messy.
*[2009-11-20 11:53:16] [[User:Uni Ninetails|Uni Ninetails]]: Yeah Maggie look at fashion show voting XD
*[2009-11-20 11:53:21] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Maggie: I agree ... but voting is being proposed, sadly in my view
*[2009-11-20 11:53:22] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: I hope they create better content than you, Jonit.
*[2009-11-20 11:53:27] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: The xcite sheep never worked right.
*[2009-11-20 11:53:30] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: just like in rl. during voting dram is present:)
*[2009-11-20 11:53:32] [[User:Maggie Darwin|Maggie Darwin]]: Voting on *what*?
*[2009-11-20 11:53:36] [[User:Wut Moorlord|Wut Moorlord]]: yeah, losing any content creation abilities for new users would somewhat defeat the purpose of SL
*[2009-11-20 11:53:36] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: nods, I Z fight to anniy Torley
*[2009-11-20 11:53:39] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: drama is present*
*[2009-11-20 11:53:42] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: annoy*
*[2009-11-20 11:53:47] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Maggie: unknown on what
*[2009-11-20 11:53:53] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: drama is an abstract term applied here
*[2009-11-20 11:54:00] [[User:Maggie Darwin|Maggie Darwin]]: Then it's not a proposal.
*[2009-11-20 11:54:11] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: More the principle I think: votes for money (ew)
*[2009-11-20 11:54:13] [[User:Bronson Blackadder|Bronson Blackadder]]: I vote no votes
*[2009-11-20 11:54:16] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: they and to quote an LL employee " are most likely ill in RL too"
*[2009-11-20 11:54:17] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: How about premium can be given the ability to back up their self-created and full-perm inventory?
*[2009-11-20 11:54:18] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: heh.
*[2009-11-20 11:54:19] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Andrew said yesterday, he wasn't interested in nickel and diming the residents, which I fully agree with. He said that changes that would make things better for everyone, should be given to everyone.
*[2009-11-20 11:54:21] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: ...the xcite sheep... I was better not paying attention
*[2009-11-20 11:54:29] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: Xcite sheep?
*[2009-11-20 11:54:33] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: SLURL?
*[2009-11-20 11:54:36] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: Nao!
*[2009-11-20 11:54:40] [[User:Bronson Blackadder|Bronson Blackadder]]: lol
*[2009-11-20 11:54:40] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Hadley said it earlier!
*[2009-11-20 11:54:50] [[User:Maggie Darwin|Maggie Darwin]]: Now there's a product that would sell. Esppecially to NZeds
*[2009-11-20 11:54:50] [[User:Larry Massey|Larry Massey]]: how about: new premium members are *given* land, not just "have right to buy"
*[2009-11-20 11:54:53] [[User:Reverend Upshaw|Reverend Upshaw]]: figures jonit ;-)
*[2009-11-20 11:54:56] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: The one stuck in your fence, Jonit.
*[2009-11-20 11:54:57] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: What would the results of a "vote" be used for? I think you should consider carefully what's just happened with SLX... to avoid the same missteps.
* http://slurl.com/secondlife/Ambleside/57/107/26 (Starts in 5 minutes)
*[2009-11-20 11:55:05] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: increase premium land to 1024
*[2009-11-20 11:55:05] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: What about, instead of a premium/basic account system, you offer a services system?
*[2009-11-20 11:55:07] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: done
*[2009-11-20 11:55:11] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Oh, is that a 9), Larry?
*[2009-11-20 11:55:23] [[User:Larry Massey|Larry Massey]]: sure, make it easier to access the benefits
*[2009-11-20 11:55:36] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: yes Morgaine, or can I call you Lambkins
*[2009-11-20 11:55:40] [[User:Larry Massey|Larry Massey]]: and maybe pointed to freebie buildings they can customize
*[2009-11-20 11:55:40] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: lol
*[2009-11-20 11:55:46] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: LL offers chooseable services that peole can purchase access to for what they like. Most people who were at the meeting yesterday had a premium account for the land.
*[2009-11-20 11:55:49] [[User:Uni Ninetails|Uni Ninetails]]: qarls had it easy today
*[2009-11-20 11:55:50] [[User:Maggie Darwin|Maggie Darwin]]: Start "voting" in anything of substance, and you will be overrun with Prok-faced politicians grubbing for power.
*[2009-11-20 11:55:55] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: So, have a service that allows access to land.
*[2009-11-20 11:56:04] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: Premium get 1024
*[2009-11-20 11:56:05] [[User:Bronson Blackadder|Bronson Blackadder]]: prok
*[2009-11-20 11:56:05] [[User:Bronson Blackadder|Bronson Blackadder]]: lol
*[2009-11-20 11:56:06] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Ideas for improving Premium: 1) No death penalty, 2) More land, 3) Blacklisting on your parcel, 4) Voting rights, 5) Mesh import allowed, 6) Higher stipend, 7) OpenID (OP and RP), 8) More groups, 9) Some (small) land free of cost or free of tier.
*[2009-11-20 11:56:07] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: I should JIRA this
*[2009-11-20 11:56:12] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: Uni - well - the discussion is interesting, i think. :)
*[2009-11-20 11:56:16] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: Benefit to premium: Cheaper or free uploads.
*[2009-11-20 11:56:22] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: Oh oh
*[2009-11-20 11:56:24] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: nice
*[2009-11-20 11:56:24] [[User:Uni Ninetails|Uni Ninetails]]: microtrasactions for services attached to accounts.
*[2009-11-20 11:56:28] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: Hadley that too
*[2009-11-20 11:56:32] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: free uploads is GOOD.
*[2009-11-20 11:56:39] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: Yes, I like that
*[2009-11-20 11:56:43] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Even I'll agree to that one.
*[2009-11-20 11:56:45] [[User:Uni Ninetails|Uni Ninetails]]: building. land ownership. inventory. *ducks
*[2009-11-20 11:56:49] [[User:Maggie Darwin|Maggie Darwin]]: The best governance is the least governance. Even though Philip is gone, that's still true
*[2009-11-20 11:56:55] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Ideas for improving Premium: 1) No death penalty, 2) More land, 3) Blacklisting on your parcel, 4) Voting rights, 5) Mesh import allowed, 6) Higher stipend, 7) OpenID (OP and RP), 8) More groups, 9) Some (small) land free of cost or free of tier, 10) Free uploads
*[2009-11-20 11:57:02] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: So Qarl, how soon should we expect to see an announcement about a new roadmap / policy decision for premium accounts.
*[2009-11-20 11:57:02] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: That will be the best way to stimulate premiums and get content creators more likely to upgrade.
*[2009-11-20 11:57:04] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: ?
*[2009-11-20 11:57:07] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: it allows them to build, but limits in a sexy way
*[2009-11-20 11:57:13] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: JB - heh.
*[2009-11-20 11:57:13] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: free uploads
*[2009-11-20 11:57:19] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: Clearly this discussion isn't "just for fun" ? :))
*[2009-11-20 11:57:27] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: well...
*[2009-11-20 11:57:33] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: free? judging buy the recent Xstreet changes you will be charged for using services that load the backend. so expect L$50 group IM fee
*[2009-11-20 11:57:33] [[User:Maggie Darwin|Maggie Darwin]]: No doubt it's already written. Welcome to the retroactive brown bag.
*[2009-11-20 11:57:36] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Uni: I don't know what that mean, for an 11)
*[2009-11-20 11:57:47] [[User:Bronson Blackadder|Bronson Blackadder]]: lol
*[2009-11-20 11:57:51] [[User:Larry Massey|Larry Massey]]: I'd really encourage doing things to improve the usability of the current premium offering before changing the offering
*[2009-11-20 11:57:57] [[User:Uni Ninetails|Uni Ninetails]]: free uploads, but how do you stop someone uploading a 4000 page images set for a book in a day thrashing out the asset servers and Morg neither do i.
*[2009-11-20 11:58:04] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: this is sorta a topic we're wrestling with internally - so all these ideas are very interesting.
*[2009-11-20 11:58:06] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: your line contained 25 words, we deem that to be clutter, charged $24 lindens for it
*[2009-11-20 11:58:11] [[User:Maggie Darwin|Maggie Darwin]]: I myself wouldn't be here if I wasn't on vacation
*[2009-11-20 11:58:13] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: Uni, because you know who they are
*[2009-11-20 11:58:19] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: and free is not good
*[2009-11-20 11:58:21] [[User:Wut Moorlord|Wut Moorlord]]: Uni: you limit the upload rate? :P
*[2009-11-20 11:58:25] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: well, it should be something that has a real cost, as andrew suggested, so perhaps some service like, included shoutacsh stream service for your land, when you become premium
*[2009-11-20 11:58:28] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Uni: *how* is a different issue, but since it's Premium, abuse would be controlled anyway
*[2009-11-20 11:58:32] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: I'd sau 2$L uploadss
*[2009-11-20 11:58:34] [[User:Uni Ninetails|Uni Ninetails]]: mumbles having mentioed all of this elsewhere and sighs
*[2009-11-20 11:58:38] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: just to keep it real
*[2009-11-20 11:58:39] [[User:Al Sonic|Al Sonic]]: Free uploads. Hm. Even if it were a limited amount provided like a stipend it'd be cool.
*[2009-11-20 11:58:41] [[User:Wut Moorlord|Wut Moorlord]]: hehe
*[2009-11-20 11:58:44] [[User:Hadley Yoshikawa|Hadley Yoshikawa]]: even 5cuts the cost in half for creators
*[2009-11-20 11:58:51] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: or 5
*[2009-11-20 11:58:53] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: ok ok
*[2009-11-20 11:59:08] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Hadley, that'd mostly be for animators and sounds.
*[2009-11-20 11:59:16] [[User:Larry Massey|Larry Massey]]: if you want to broaden the number of people with premium accounts, don't make changes that only appeal to people who already have premium accounts
*[2009-11-20 11:59:20] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Unless LL plans on removing access to free temp uploads on textures.
*[2009-11-20 11:59:37] [[User:Uni Ninetails|Uni Ninetails]]: jesus h christ dont say that youll jynx it
*[2009-11-20 11:59:43] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: they can't
*[2009-11-20 11:59:44] [[User:Larry Massey|Larry Massey]]: ducks
*[2009-11-20 11:59:46] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: Sebastean - that's a feature of the emerald viewer - yes?
*[2009-11-20 11:59:50] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: Emerald does that clientside
*[2009-11-20 11:59:56] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: i don't think we'd mess with that.
*[2009-11-20 11:59:56] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: or how about 1 minute sounds for premiums, instead of 10 seconds
*[2009-11-20 11:59:58] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: or try to.
* http://slurl.com/secondlife/Ambleside/57/107/26 (Starts now)
*[2009-11-20 12:00:03] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: although I am seeing more stores with grey textures
*[2009-11-20 12:00:05] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Ah-ha, I misunderstood how it did it then.
*[2009-11-20 12:00:14] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: ooppsie applied temp and forgot
*[2009-11-20 12:00:18] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: it's amusing
*[2009-11-20 12:00:28] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: tends to use the beta grid when she's playing with textures...
*[2009-11-20 12:00:28] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: lone: shall we add that as 11)?
*[2009-11-20 12:00:33] [[User:Uni Ninetails|Uni Ninetails]]: Jonit: Ive made a few mistakes with temps... need a way to tell whats a temp and whats not if there isnt alrady
*[2009-11-20 12:00:48] [[User:Bronson Blackadder|Bronson Blackadder]]: a water mark
*[2009-11-20 12:00:49] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: Sebastean - it's just local for the one person... it drops a copy of the asset into your cache, but doesn't upload it to the server.
*[2009-11-20 12:00:50] [[User:Maggie Darwin|Maggie Darwin]]: OH, in the funny shit that happened on server 1.32" department...SVC-3580 is back. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3580
*[2009-11-20 12:00:50] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: grey, with an alt on another PC
*[2009-11-20 12:00:57] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: I have to run, take care all!
*[2009-11-20 12:00:59] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: nods
*[2009-11-20 12:01:01] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: or a friend who is willing to check
*[2009-11-20 12:01:01] [[User:GoodCode Writer|GoodCode Writer]]: writing notecard with premium..or some other special funtions in scripts (group inviting...lalala)
*[2009-11-20 12:01:07] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: morgaine, well, what about my suggestion of free shoutcast server for premiums suggestion?
*[2009-11-20 12:01:09] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Cyu Xugu
*[2009-11-20 12:01:13] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: hey guys - times up.
*[2009-11-20 12:01:13] [[User:Uni Ninetails|Uni Ninetails]]: Jonit: not really ive temped somthing and a second person can see it.
*[2009-11-20 12:01:22] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: bye Xugu
*[2009-11-20 12:01:22] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: Uni?
*[2009-11-20 12:01:25] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: same PC?
*[2009-11-20 12:01:27] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: lone: Good idea!
*[2009-11-20 12:01:27] [[User:Al Sonic|Al Sonic]]: Really, with these uploads, you have to consider what it would do to the interactions between free and paid members..
*[2009-11-20 12:01:33] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: nope, should not be possible
*[2009-11-20 12:01:34] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Does LL keep the credit information of premium accounts?
*[2009-11-20 12:01:36] [[User:Uni Ninetails|Uni Ninetails]]: different pc different ISP
*[2009-11-20 12:01:41] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: tc
*[2009-11-20 12:01:43] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: Uni, file JIRA
*[2009-11-20 12:01:52] [[User:Melchizedek Blauvelt|Melchizedek Blauvelt]]: awww Qarl, see you next week hopefully
*[2009-11-20 12:01:52] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Qarl, are you trying to get to snowglobe side of thing? loads of more fun there :)
*[2009-11-20 12:01:56] [[User:Al Sonic|Al Sonic]]: jira feature meta-issue?
*[2009-11-20 12:02:04] [[User:Uni Ninetails|Uni Ninetails]]: why it works doesnt it?
*[2009-11-20 12:02:04] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: they are pseudoreferences clientside
*[2009-11-20 12:02:16] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: i'm squarely sitting inside the meshes project... for now.
*[2009-11-20 12:02:19] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: I cannot see how you saw that behaviour
*[2009-11-20 12:02:19] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Thanks for putting up with us Qarl :) I should have talked about rendering text on a prim like I planned to XD
*[2009-11-20 12:02:20] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Ideas for improving Premium: 1) No death penalty, 2) More land, 3) Blacklisting on your parcel, 4) Voting rights, 5) Mesh import allowed, 6) Higher stipend, 7) OpenID (OP and RP), 8) More groups, 9) Some (small) land free of cost or free of tier, 10) Free uploads, 11) Free shoutcast service.
*[2009-11-20 12:02:20] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: but gotta go.
*[2009-11-20 12:02:24] [[User:GoodCode Writer|GoodCode Writer]]: bb
*[2009-11-20 12:02:24] [[User:Maggie Darwin|Maggie Darwin]]: "MISC-12345: Now How Much Would You Pay?"
*[2009-11-20 12:02:31] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: tc qarl
*[2009-11-20 12:02:35] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Cya Qarl, have fun with voting machine ^_^
*[2009-11-20 12:02:35] [[User:Uni Ninetails|Uni Ninetails]]: tc Qarl have a good weekend
*[2009-11-20 12:02:37] [[User:Qarl Linden|Qarl Linden]]: great conversation guys. thanks much.
*[2009-11-20 12:02:40] [[User:Jonit Ivory|Jonit Ivory]]: thankies Qarl
*[2009-11-20 12:02:47] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: is kidding (probably)

User:Qarl Linden//Office Hours/2009 11 20

2009-11-20T23:25:36Z

Saijanai Kuhn: Created page with '*[2009-11-20 11:01:16] Jonit Ivory: who knows, or cares, but I have to add weight to it as it seems Mark commented on it *[2009-11-20 11:01:32] [[User:Sebas...'

Puppeteering

2009-11-01T23:44:28Z

Saijanai Kuhn: /* Source code */

= Objectives =
* Further the ability to communicate in Second Life by enabling residents to 'puppeteer' their avatars
* Create a Physical Avatar code layer which enables the addition of ragdoll physics and inverse kinematics to second life avatars

= Overview =
Puppeteering is real-time, user-manipulated animation of avatar joints.

It refers to nascent avatar expression technology. As with a real puppet, people will be able to manipulate the joints of their avatar, and others will be able to see these changes. The initial release will be rather humble -- the ability to temporarily adjust the position of individual joints. Enabling this is the deeper infrastructure of the Physical Avatar which, in subsequent evolutions, will allow (besides Puppeteering) a variety of new tools for real-time gesturing, inverse kinematics, rag-doll physics, in-world animation building, and scripted animation.

= Project details =
Puppeteering is a project within Studio Shiny. Cube Linden, Aura Linden, and Ventrella Linden are designing and implementing puppeteering. Periapse Linden is assisting with project management.

The code to puppeteer one's avatar locally (visible only to the person doing the puppeteering) is complete. A simple feature to save a puppeted pose as a still animation asset is complete. A proposed UI rework (cosmetic only) is designed but not yet implemented. The networking layer, which will allow others to see the real time puppeteering of one's avatar has not been thoroughly tested, and several issues remain. The foundational work to allow puppeteering to blend in with traditional animations (for example, waving an arm or pointing while dancing) is in place, however work remains to do smooth blending.

'''Note:''' The Puppeteering team has decided to put this project on the back burner until further notice.

= Roadmap =

'''Project in hibernation so that developers have time to devote to projects that increase Second Life's stability and performance'''

== Prototype Release: Expressive Puppeteering ==

NOTE: this list hasn't been edited since the project was put on hold. The features listed here may or may not be available in the release on svn.secondlife.com

* The first release is about laying the foundation for the future of avatar manipulation. Key is the development of the Physical Avatar, a code layer which models an avatar as physically-based joint balls connected by springs, and allows influence by external forces (from UI and from world). As this model is being manipulated, it continually converts back to the standard avatar representation so it can be rendered.
* The visible component of this is a simple UI enabling the momentary manipulation of avatar body parts. Initially this will be triggered by holding the CTRL key down. Mouse cursor proximity will cause joints to highlight, and a click and drag allows the positioning of that joint. As long as the CTRL key is held down the pose will be fixed, allowing the adjustment of several joints. All these manipulations will be visible to other residents. Movement, or the ESC key, will end puppeteering and revert the avatar back to original animation.
* A base set of normal joint constraints should be available to users that allow for realistic movement
* You will be able to save a puppeteering pose as an animation asset, for later use as a pose or in a gesture.

= Vision =
The Physical Avatar layer enables the development of several Grid-changing technologies.
* Real-time gesturing: An advanced UI, perhaps using keyboard chording or even alternate input devices to produce complicated avatar expression. Real time dancing.
* IK and rag-doll physics: Residents could walk hand in hand with realistic motion. Avatars tumble realistically when falling (or when shot, pushed).
** Play awesomely with Havok. When bumped, ragdoll friction relative to impact force. :)
* In-world animation tools: Residents can build and save their own gestures, animations in world. No need for external modeling applications, exporting, and uploading.
* Scripted animations: Additions to LSL would allow the scripted adjustment of the Physical Avatar joint tree.
* Procedural animations: Ability to blend puppeteered actions into running animations including previously puppeteered loops.
* Touch a surface: Ride on the 'texture surface' code to move a joint to a surface on a nearby object, pulling IK chain along.

= Source code =

'''NOTE''' - THIS CODE IS NOT SUPPORTED, PROVIDED AS IS, AND DOES NOT REPRESENT THE DIRECTION LINDEN LAB WILL WANT TO TAKE THIS FEATURE. This source code is released purely for demonstration and research purposes

SVN URL:http://svn.secondlife.com/svn/linden/branches/2008/Puppeteering080323/

The code itself is somewhat complete - there are definitely some things we would do differently and there are still definitely bugs in there, but right now it's pretty unlikely that we will return to this to complete it or refactor that which we would want to change with the code and intent as it stands. It's based off 1.19.1 and we have a region on aditi that is running the simulator code (note, again, this code is relatively incomplete and the simulator could well crash) named Puppeteering. You may need to log directly into that region for it to work.

Direct any questions you may have about this to the [[SLDev]] mailing list.

= See Also =
* [[Render Roadmap]]
* [http://avatarpuppeteering.com/ avatarpuppeteering.com] - JJ Ventrella's site discussing the feature.

User:Saijanai Kuhn/Plugins discussion

2009-10-30T01:26:30Z

Saijanai Kuhn:

==[[Media_Rendering_Plugin_Framework| New Media plugin]]==

This is some rambling about the new Second Life viewer plugins and how it could be extended. Such plugins could have many uses, from allowing people to show new kinds of animated movies, or to display a live, interactive view of their own computer, etc. [[User_talk:Saijanai_Kuhn/Plugins_discussion| Discuss here]].
===Current Setup===
{| Border = "0"
|-
|width="300"|* The Second Life server is the main computer that your own computer connects to when you start Second Life. It starts a login process which allows you to eventually start roaming the Second Life world with your avatar. Without any plugins at all, the main communication is directly between your client and the current server running the land your avatar is standing on, also known as a "simulator." * The Second Life client is the program you download in order to connect to Second Life.|| [[Image:Simpleserver_diagram.svg‎|100px]]
|}
{| Border = "0"
===[http://lib.openmetaverse.org/wiki/SLProxy Gridproxy]===
|-
|width="300"|* With [http://lib.openmetaverse.org/wiki/SLProxy Gridproxy], you can add a program that intercepts data as it comes to your computer or is sent out to the Second Life simulator. This allows you to add new features to Second Life by installing plugins that modify/insert/delete the data before it can reach its final destination. Gridproxy could create a local webpage to control a given plugin and thereby give you a robust GUI for the plugin, or, you could use the new media plugin to add a GUI on a prim in some way within the main viewer window. **Possible plugins might include new chat/IM types or a more sophisticated estate management system, etc. || [[Image:Gridproxy diagram.svg|500px]]
|}

===[[Media_Rendering_Plugin_Framework| Media Rendering Plugin]]===
{| Border = "0"
|-
|width="400"|With the new media rendering plugin framework defined by Linden Lab, developers can now add new functions to Second Life without requiring Gridproxy. Basically, the plugin is able to draw directly onto a prim and the Second Life viewer is able to detect mouse-button clicks and the words you type within the prim and pass your text and mouse movement back to the media plugin. This allows for some pretty neat possiblies, like the ability to show a program window or computer screen running on a prim [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_Network_Computing using VNC]|| [[Image:Multimedia_plugin.svg|500px]]||<videoflash>TtHO4AtVSwc|300|300</videoflash>
|}
==Proposed Extension to Media Plugin==
{| Border = "0"
|-
|width="400"|* A possible extension to the new media plugin would allow a developer to manipulate ingoing/outgoing data as Gridproxy does, as well as draw directly to prims as the Media Plugin does. New interactions with the viewer could include receiving internal data about avatar positions, or creating a new kind of particle effect. A plugin could provide specialized control of the avatar for use with the [[Puppeteering|old Puppeteering code]] or for creating Mechanima. New particle effects might be added via such a plugin. New Physics for use with different kinds of virtual worlds might be added that way. Specialized plugins could allow people to play complex games in realtime, such as is possible right now with Worlds of Warcraft and other roll-playing games.||[[Image:Plugin extension.svg|400px]]

|}

===[http://www.avatarpuppeteering.com/ Puppeteering Plugin]===

{| Border = "0"
| With the [[Puppeteering|never finished puppeteering code]] written by Linden Lab, combined with an extension to the new media plugin, developers could create plugins that would would allow animators, mechanimators, etc, to animate one or more avatar using sophisticated programs and scripts directly.||<videoflash>Mfc66AIKh9o|thumb</videoflash>
|}

File:Plugin extension.svg

2009-10-30T01:25:01Z

Saijanai Kuhn:

User:Saijanai Kuhn/Plugins discussion

2009-10-30T00:44:33Z

Saijanai Kuhn:

==[[Media_Rendering_Plugin_Framework| New Media plugin]]==

This is some rambling about the new Second Life viewer plugins and how it could be extended. Such plugins could have many uses, from allowing people to show new kinds of animated movies, or to display a live, interactive view of their own computer, etc. [[User_talk:Saijanai_Kuhn/Plugins_discussion| Discuss here]].
{| Border = "0"
|-
|width="300"|* The Second Life server is the main computer that your own computer connects to when you start Second Life. It starts a login process which allows you to eventually start roaming the Second Life world with your avatar. Without any plugins at all, the main communication is directly between your client and the current server running the land your avatar is standing on, also known as a "simulator." * The Second Life client is the program you download in order to connect to Second Life.|| [[Image:Simpleserver_diagram.svg‎|100px]]
|-
|* With [http://lib.openmetaverse.org/wiki/SLProxy Gridproxy], you can add a program that intercepts data as it comes to your computer or is sent out to the Second Life simulator. This allows you to add new features to Second Life by installing plugins that modify/insert/delete the data before it can reach its final destination. Gridproxy could create a local webpage to control a given plugin and thereby give you a robust GUI for the plugin, or, you could use the new media plugin to add a GUI on a prim in some way within the main viewer window. **Possible plugins might include new chat/IM types or a more sophisticated estate management system, etc. || [[Image:Gridproxy diagram.svg|500px]]
|}

===[[Media_Rendering_Plugin_Framework| Media Rendering Plugin]]===
{| Border = "0"
|-
|width="400"|With the new media rendering plugin framework defined by Linden Lab, developers can now add new functions to Second Life without requiring Gridproxy. Basically, the plugin is able to draw directly onto a prim and the Second Life viewer is able to detect mouse-button clicks and the words you type within the prim and pass your text and mouse movement back to the media plugin. This allows for some pretty neat possiblies, like the ability to show a program window or computer screen running on a prim [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_Network_Computing using VNC]|| [[Image:Multimedia_plugin.svg|500px]]||<videoflash>TtHO4AtVSwc|300|300</videoflash>
|}

===[http://www.avatarpuppeteering.com/ Puppeteering Plugin]===

{| Border = "0"
| With the [[Puppeteering|never finished puppeteering code]] written by Linden Lab, combined with an extension to the new media plugin, developers could create plugins that would would allow animators, mechanimators, etc, to animate one or more avatar using sophisticated programs and scripts directly.||<videoflash>Mfc66AIKh9o|thumb</videoflash>
|}

File:Multimedia plugin.svg

2009-10-30T00:37:56Z

Saijanai Kuhn:

User:Saijanai Kuhn/Plugins discussion

2009-10-30T00:13:44Z

Saijanai Kuhn: /* Media Rendering Plugin */

==[[Media_Rendering_Plugin_Framework| New Media plugin]]==

This is some rambling about the new Second Life viewer plugins and how it could be extended. Such plugins could have many uses, from allowing people to show new kinds of animated movies, or to display a live, interactive view of their own computer, etc. [[User_talk:Saijanai_Kuhn/Plugins_discussion| Discuss here]].
{| Border = "0"
|-
|width="500"|* The Second Life server is the main computer that your own computer connects to when you start Second Life. It starts a login process which allows you to eventually start roaming the Second Life world with your avatar. Without any plugins at all, the main communication is directly between your client and the current server running the land your avatar is standing on, also known as a "simulator." * The Second Life client is the program you download in order to connect to Second Life.|| [[Image:Simpleserver_diagram.svg‎|100px]]
|-
|* With [http://lib.openmetaverse.org/wiki/SLProxy Gridproxy], you can add a program that intercepts data as it comes to your computer or is sent out to the Second Life simulator. This allows you to add new features to Second Life by installing plugins that modify/insert/delete the data before it can reach its final destination. Gridproxy could create a local webpage to control a given plugin and thereby give you a robust GUI for the plugin, or, you could use the new media plugin to add a GUI on a prim in some way within the main viewer window. **Possible plugins might include new chat/IM types or a more sophisticated estate management system, etc. || [[Image:Gridproxy diagram.svg|500px]]

|}

===[[Media_Rendering_Plugin_Framework| Media Rendering Plugin]]===

{| Border = "0"
|-
|width="200'|With the new media rendering plugin framework defined by Linden Lab, developers can now add new functions to Second Life without requiring Gridproxy. Basically, the plugin is able to draw directly onto a prim and the Second Life viewer is able to detect mouse-button clicks and the words you type within the prim and pass your text and mouse movement back to the media plugin. This allows for some pretty neat possiblies, like the ability to show a program window or computer screen running on a prim [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_Network_Computing using VNC]
|<videoflash>TtHO4AtVSwc|300|300</videoflash>
|}

===[http://www.avatarpuppeteering.com/ Puppeteering Plugin]===

{| Border = "0"
| With the [[Puppeteering|never finished puppeteering code]] written by Linden Lab, combined with an extension to the new media plugin, developers could create plugins that would would allow animators, mechanimators, etc, to animate one or more avatar using sophisticated programs and scripts directly.||<videoflash>Mfc66AIKh9o|thumb</videoflash>
|}

User:Saijanai Kuhn/Plugins discussion

2009-10-30T00:10:38Z

Saijanai Kuhn: /* New Media plugin */

==[[Media_Rendering_Plugin_Framework| New Media plugin]]==

This is some rambling about the new Second Life viewer plugins and how it could be extended. Such plugins could have many uses, from allowing people to show new kinds of animated movies, or to display a live, interactive view of their own computer, etc. [[User_talk:Saijanai_Kuhn/Plugins_discussion| Discuss here]].
{| Border = "0"
|-
|width="500"|* The Second Life server is the main computer that your own computer connects to when you start Second Life. It starts a login process which allows you to eventually start roaming the Second Life world with your avatar. Without any plugins at all, the main communication is directly between your client and the current server running the land your avatar is standing on, also known as a "simulator." * The Second Life client is the program you download in order to connect to Second Life.|| [[Image:Simpleserver_diagram.svg‎|100px]]
|-
|* With [http://lib.openmetaverse.org/wiki/SLProxy Gridproxy], you can add a program that intercepts data as it comes to your computer or is sent out to the Second Life simulator. This allows you to add new features to Second Life by installing plugins that modify/insert/delete the data before it can reach its final destination. Gridproxy could create a local webpage to control a given plugin and thereby give you a robust GUI for the plugin, or, you could use the new media plugin to add a GUI on a prim in some way within the main viewer window. **Possible plugins might include new chat/IM types or a more sophisticated estate management system, etc. || [[Image:Gridproxy diagram.svg|500px]]

|}

===[[Media_Rendering_Plugin_Framework| Media Rendering Plugin]]===

{| Border = "0"
|-
With the new media rendering plugin framework defined by Linden Lab, developers can now add new functions to Second Life without requiring Gridproxy. Basically, the plugin is able to draw directly onto a prim and the Second Life viewer is able to detect mouse-button clicks and the words you type within the prim and pass your text and mouse movement back to the media plugin. This allows for some pretty neat possiblies, like the ability to show a program window or computer screen running on a prim [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_Network_Computing using VNC]||||<videoflash>TtHO4AtVSwc|300|300</videoflash>
|}

===[http://www.avatarpuppeteering.com/ Puppeteering Plugin]===

{| Border = "0"
| With the [[Puppeteering|never finished puppeteering code]] written by Linden Lab, combined with an extension to the new media plugin, developers could create plugins that would would allow animators, mechanimators, etc, to animate one or more avatar using sophisticated programs and scripts directly.||<videoflash>Mfc66AIKh9o|thumb</videoflash>
|}

File:Gridproxy diagram.svg

2009-10-30T00:03:12Z

Saijanai Kuhn:

User:Saijanai Kuhn/Plugins discussion

2009-10-29T22:57:17Z

Saijanai Kuhn:

File:Simpleserver diagram.svg

2009-10-29T22:53:29Z

Saijanai Kuhn: uploaded a new version of "File:Simpleserver diagram.svg"

simplified diagram

File:Simpleserver diagram.svg

2009-10-29T22:44:25Z

Saijanai Kuhn: simplified diagram

simplified diagram

User talk:Robin Cornelius/28-Oct-Transcript

2009-10-28T02:25:40Z

Saijanai Kuhn: Created page with 'Stub'

Stub

User:Saijanai Kuhn/Plugins discussion

2009-10-26T21:09:24Z

Saijanai Kuhn: /* Media Rendering Plugin */

[[Image:new diagram.svg|right|500px]]

==[[Media_Rendering_Plugin_Framework| New Media plugin]]==

This is some rambling about the new Second Life viewer plugins and how it could be extended. Such plugins could have many uses, from allowing people to show new kinds of animated movies, or to display a live, interactive view of their own computer, etc. [[User_talk:Saijanai_Kuhn/Plugins_discussion| Discuss here]].

* The Second Life server is the main computer that your own computer connects to when you start Second Life. It starts a login process which allows you to eventually start roaming the Second Life world with your avatar. Without any plugins at all, the main communication is directly between your client and the current server running the land your avatar is standing on, also known as a "simulator."

* The Second Life client is the program you download in order to connect to Second Life.

* With [http://lib.openmetaverse.org/wiki/SLProxy Gridproxy], you can add a program that intercepts data as it comes to your computer or is sent out to the Second Life simulator. This allows you to add new features to Second Life by installing plugins that modify/insert/delete the data before it can reach its final destination. Gridproxy could create a local webpage to control a given plugin and thereby give you a robust GUI for the plugin, or, you could use the new media plugin to add a GUI on a prim in some way within the main viewer window.

===[[Media_Rendering_Plugin_Framework| Media Rendering Plugin]]===

{| Border = "0"
| With the new media rendering plugin framework defined by Linden Lab, developers can now add new functions to Second Life without requiring Gridproxy. Basically, the plugin is able to draw directly onto a prim and the Second Life viewer is able to detect mouse-button clicks and the words you type within the prim and pass your text and mouse movement back to the media plugin. This allows for some pretty neat possiblies, like the ability to show a program window or computer screen running on a prim [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_Network_Computing using VNC]||<videoflash>TtHO4AtVSwc|300|300</videoflash>
|}

===[http://www.avatarpuppeteering.com/ Puppeteering Plugin]===

{| Border = "0"
| With the [[Puppeteering|never finished puppeteering code]] written by Linden Lab, combined with an extension to the new media plugin, developers could create plugins that would would allow animators, mechanimators, etc, to animate one or more avatar using sophisticated programs and scripts directly.||<videoflash>Mfc66AIKh9o|thumb</videoflash>
|}

User:Saijanai Kuhn/Plugins discussion

2009-10-26T21:08:59Z

Saijanai Kuhn: /* New Media plugin */

[[Image:new diagram.svg|right|500px]]

==[[Media_Rendering_Plugin_Framework| New Media plugin]]==

This is some rambling about the new Second Life viewer plugins and how it could be extended. Such plugins could have many uses, from allowing people to show new kinds of animated movies, or to display a live, interactive view of their own computer, etc. [[User_talk:Saijanai_Kuhn/Plugins_discussion| Discuss here]].

* The Second Life server is the main computer that your own computer connects to when you start Second Life. It starts a login process which allows you to eventually start roaming the Second Life world with your avatar. Without any plugins at all, the main communication is directly between your client and the current server running the land your avatar is standing on, also known as a "simulator."

* The Second Life client is the program you download in order to connect to Second Life.

* With [http://lib.openmetaverse.org/wiki/SLProxy Gridproxy], you can add a program that intercepts data as it comes to your computer or is sent out to the Second Life simulator. This allows you to add new features to Second Life by installing plugins that modify/insert/delete the data before it can reach its final destination. Gridproxy could create a local webpage to control a given plugin and thereby give you a robust GUI for the plugin, or, you could use the new media plugin to add a GUI on a prim in some way within the main viewer window.

===[[Media_Rendering_Plugin_Framework| Media Rendering Plugin]]===

{| Border = "0"
| With the new media rendering plugin framework defined by Linden Lab, developers can now add new functions to Second Life without requiring Gridproxy. Basically, the plugin is able to draw directly onto a prim and the Second LIfe viewer is able to detect mouse-button clicks and the words you type within the prim and pass your text and mouse movement back to the media plugin. This allows for some pretty neat possiblies, like the ability to show a program window or computer screen running on a prim [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_Network_Computing using VNC]||<videoflash>TtHO4AtVSwc|300|300</videoflash>
|}

===[http://www.avatarpuppeteering.com/ Puppeteering Plugin]===

{| Border = "0"
| With the [[Puppeteering|never finished puppeteering code]] written by Linden Lab, combined with an extension to the new media plugin, developers could create plugins that would would allow animators, mechanimators, etc, to animate one or more avatar using sophisticated programs and scripts directly.||<videoflash>Mfc66AIKh9o|thumb</videoflash>
|}

User:Saijanai Kuhn/Plugins discussion

2009-10-26T21:07:57Z

Saijanai Kuhn: /* New Media plugin */

[[Image:new diagram.svg|right|500px]]

==[[Media_Rendering_Plugin_Framework| New Media plugin]]==

This is some rambling about the new Second Life viewer plugins and how it could be extended. Such plugins could have many uses, from allowing people to show new kinds of animated movies, or to display a live, interactive view of their own computer, etc. [[User_talk:Saijanai_Kuhn/Plugins_discussion| Discuss here]].

* The Second Life server is the main computer that your own computer connects to when you start Second Life. It starts a login process which allows you to eventually start roaming the Second Life world with your avatar. Without any plugins at all, the main communication is directly between your client and the current server running the land your avatar is standing on, also known as a "simulator."

* The Second Life client is the program you download in order to connect to Second Life.

* With [http://lib.openmetaverse.org/wiki/SLProxy Gridproxy], you can add a program that intercepts data as it comes to your computer or is sent out to the Second Life simulator. This allows you to add new features to Second LIfe by installing plugins that modify/insert/delete the data before it can reach its final destination. Gridproxy could create a local webpage to control a given plugin and thereby give you a robust GUI for the plugin, or, you could use the new media plugin to add a GUI on a prim in some way within the main viewer window.

===[[Media_Rendering_Plugin_Framework| Media Rendering Plugin]]===

{| Border = "0"
| With the new media rendering plugin framework defined by Linden Lab, developers can now add new functions to Second Life without requiring Gridproxy. Basically, the plugin is able to draw directly onto a prim and the Second LIfe viewer is able to detect mouse-button clicks and the words you type within the prim and pass your text and mouse movement back to the media plugin. This allows for some pretty neat possiblies, like the ability to show a program window or computer screen running on a prim [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_Network_Computing using VNC]||<videoflash>TtHO4AtVSwc|300|300</videoflash>
|}

===[http://www.avatarpuppeteering.com/ Puppeteering Plugin]===

{| Border = "0"
| With the [[Puppeteering|never finished puppeteering code]] written by Linden Lab, combined with an extension to the new media plugin, developers could create plugins that would would allow animators, mechanimators, etc, to animate one or more avatar using sophisticated programs and scripts directly.||<videoflash>Mfc66AIKh9o|thumb</videoflash>
|}

User:Saijanai Kuhn/Plugins discussion

2009-10-25T22:26:59Z

Saijanai Kuhn: /* Media Rendering Plugin */

[[Image:new diagram.svg|right|500px]]

==[[Media_Rendering_Plugin_Framework| New Media plugin]]==

This is some rambling about the new Second Life viewer plugins and how it could be extended. Such plugins could have many uses, from allowing people to show new kinds of animated movies, or to display a live, interactive view of their own computer, etc. [[User_talk:Saijanai_Kuhn/Plugins_discussion| Discuss here]].

* The Second Life server is the main computer that your own computer connects to when you start Second Life. It starts a login process which allows you to eventually start roaming the Second Life world with your avatar. Without any plugins at all, the main communication is directly between your client and the current server running the land your avatar is standing on, also known as a "simulator."

* The Second Life client is the program you download in order to connect to Second Life.

* With [http://lib.openmetaverse.org/wiki/SLProxy Gridproxy Gridproxy], you can add a program that intercepts data as it comes to your computer or is sent out to the Second Life simulator. This allows you to add new features to Second LIfe by installing plugins that modify/insert/delete the data before it can reach its final destination. Gridproxy could create a local webpage to control a given plugin and thereby give you a robust GUI for the plugin, or, you could use the new media plugin to add a GUI on a prim in some way within the main viewer window.

===[[Media_Rendering_Plugin_Framework| Media Rendering Plugin]]===

{| Border = "0"
| With the new media rendering plugin framework defined by Linden Lab, developers can now add new functions to Second Life without requiring Gridproxy. Basically, the plugin is able to draw directly onto a prim and the Second LIfe viewer is able to detect mouse-button clicks and the words you type within the prim and pass your text and mouse movement back to the media plugin. This allows for some pretty neat possiblies, like the ability to show a program window or computer screen running on a prim [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_Network_Computing using VNC]||<videoflash>TtHO4AtVSwc|300|300</videoflash>
|}

===[http://www.avatarpuppeteering.com/ Puppeteering Plugin]===

{| Border = "0"
| With the [[Puppeteering|never finished puppeteering code]] written by Linden Lab, combined with an extension to the new media plugin, developers could create plugins that would would allow animators, mechanimators, etc, to animate one or more avatar using sophisticated programs and scripts directly.||<videoflash>Mfc66AIKh9o|thumb</videoflash>
|}

User:Saijanai Kuhn/Plugins discussion

2009-10-25T22:26:30Z

Saijanai Kuhn: /* Media Rendering Plugin */

[[Image:new diagram.svg|right|500px]]

==[[Media_Rendering_Plugin_Framework| New Media plugin]]==

This is some rambling about the new Second Life viewer plugins and how it could be extended. Such plugins could have many uses, from allowing people to show new kinds of animated movies, or to display a live, interactive view of their own computer, etc. [[User_talk:Saijanai_Kuhn/Plugins_discussion| Discuss here]].

* The Second Life server is the main computer that your own computer connects to when you start Second Life. It starts a login process which allows you to eventually start roaming the Second Life world with your avatar. Without any plugins at all, the main communication is directly between your client and the current server running the land your avatar is standing on, also known as a "simulator."

* The Second Life client is the program you download in order to connect to Second Life.

* With [http://lib.openmetaverse.org/wiki/SLProxy Gridproxy Gridproxy], you can add a program that intercepts data as it comes to your computer or is sent out to the Second Life simulator. This allows you to add new features to Second LIfe by installing plugins that modify/insert/delete the data before it can reach its final destination. Gridproxy could create a local webpage to control a given plugin and thereby give you a robust GUI for the plugin, or, you could use the new media plugin to add a GUI on a prim in some way within the main viewer window.

===[[Media_Rendering_Plugin_Framework| Media Rendering Plugin]]===

{| Border = "0"
| With the new media rendering plugin framework defined by Linden Lab, developers can now add new functions to Second Life without requiring Gridproxy. Basically, the plugin is able to draw directly onto a prim and the Second LIfe viewer is able to detect mouse-button clicks and the words you type within the prim and pass your text and mouse movement back to the media plugin. This allows for some pretty neat possiblies, like the ability to show a program window or computer screen running on a prim [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_Network_Computing using VNC]<videoflash>TtHO4AtVSwc|300|300</videoflash>
|}

===[http://www.avatarpuppeteering.com/ Puppeteering Plugin]===

{| Border = "0"
| With the [[Puppeteering|never finished puppeteering code]] written by Linden Lab, combined with an extension to the new media plugin, developers could create plugins that would would allow animators, mechanimators, etc, to animate one or more avatar using sophisticated programs and scripts directly.||<videoflash>Mfc66AIKh9o|thumb</videoflash>
|}

User:Saijanai Kuhn/Plugins discussion

2009-10-25T22:21:46Z

Saijanai Kuhn: /* Media Rendering Plugin */

[[Image:new diagram.svg|right|500px]]

==[[Media_Rendering_Plugin_Framework| New Media plugin]]==

This is some rambling about the new Second Life viewer plugins and how it could be extended. Such plugins could have many uses, from allowing people to show new kinds of animated movies, or to display a live, interactive view of their own computer, etc. [[User_talk:Saijanai_Kuhn/Plugins_discussion| Discuss here]].

* The Second Life server is the main computer that your own computer connects to when you start Second Life. It starts a login process which allows you to eventually start roaming the Second Life world with your avatar. Without any plugins at all, the main communication is directly between your client and the current server running the land your avatar is standing on, also known as a "simulator."

* The Second Life client is the program you download in order to connect to Second Life.

* With [http://lib.openmetaverse.org/wiki/SLProxy Gridproxy Gridproxy], you can add a program that intercepts data as it comes to your computer or is sent out to the Second Life simulator. This allows you to add new features to Second LIfe by installing plugins that modify/insert/delete the data before it can reach its final destination. Gridproxy could create a local webpage to control a given plugin and thereby give you a robust GUI for the plugin, or, you could use the new media plugin to add a GUI on a prim in some way within the main viewer window.

===[[Media_Rendering_Plugin_Framework| Media Rendering Plugin]]===

{| Border = "0"
| With the new media rendering plugin framework defined by Linden Lab, developers can now add new functions to Second Life without requiring Gridproxy. Basically, the plugin is able to draw directly onto a prim and the Second LIfe viewer is able to detect mouse-button clicks and the words you type within the prim and pass your text and mouse movement back to the media plugin. This allows for some pretty neat possiblies, like the ability to show a program window or computer screen running on a prim [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_Network_Computing using VNC]
|}

===[http://www.avatarpuppeteering.com/ Puppeteering Plugin]===

{| Border = "0"
| With the [[Puppeteering|never finished puppeteering code]] written by Linden Lab, combined with an extension to the new media plugin, developers could create plugins that would would allow animators, mechanimators, etc, to animate one or more avatar using sophisticated programs and scripts directly.||<videoflash>Mfc66AIKh9o|thumb</videoflash>
|}

User:Saijanai Kuhn/Plugins discussion

2009-10-25T22:20:53Z

Saijanai Kuhn: Undo revision 632212 by Saijanai Kuhn (Talk)

[[Image:new diagram.svg|right|500px]]

==[[Media_Rendering_Plugin_Framework| New Media plugin]]==

This is some rambling about the new Second Life viewer plugins and how it could be extended. Such plugins could have many uses, from allowing people to show new kinds of animated movies, or to display a live, interactive view of their own computer, etc. [[User_talk:Saijanai_Kuhn/Plugins_discussion| Discuss here]].

* The Second Life server is the main computer that your own computer connects to when you start Second Life. It starts a login process which allows you to eventually start roaming the Second Life world with your avatar. Without any plugins at all, the main communication is directly between your client and the current server running the land your avatar is standing on, also known as a "simulator."

* The Second Life client is the program you download in order to connect to Second Life.

* With [http://lib.openmetaverse.org/wiki/SLProxy Gridproxy Gridproxy], you can add a program that intercepts data as it comes to your computer or is sent out to the Second Life simulator. This allows you to add new features to Second LIfe by installing plugins that modify/insert/delete the data before it can reach its final destination. Gridproxy could create a local webpage to control a given plugin and thereby give you a robust GUI for the plugin, or, you could use the new media plugin to add a GUI on a prim in some way within the main viewer window.

===[[Media_Rendering_Plugin_Framework| Media Rendering Plugin]]===

{| Border = "0"
| With the new media rendering plugin framework defined by Linden Lab, developers can now add new functions to Second Life without requiring Gridproxy. Basically, the plugin is able to draw directly onto a prim and the Second LIfe viewer is able to detect mouse-button clicks and the words you type within the prim and pass your text and mouse movement back to the media plugin. This allows for some pretty neat possiblies, like the ability to show a program window or computer screen running on a prim [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtHO4AtVSwc interactively]. || {| <videoflash>TtHO4AtVSwc|300|300</videoflash>
|}

===[http://www.avatarpuppeteering.com/ Puppeteering Plugin]===

{| Border = "0"
| With the [[Puppeteering|never finished puppeteering code]] written by Linden Lab, combined with an extension to the new media plugin, developers could create plugins that would would allow animators, mechanimators, etc, to animate one or more avatar using sophisticated programs and scripts directly.||<videoflash>Mfc66AIKh9o|thumb</videoflash>
|}

User:Saijanai Kuhn/Plugins discussion

2009-10-25T22:19:39Z

Saijanai Kuhn: /* Media Rendering Plugin */

[[Image:new diagram.svg|right|500px]]

==[[Media_Rendering_Plugin_Framework| New Media plugin]]==

This is some rambling about the new Second Life viewer plugins and how it could be extended. Such plugins could have many uses, from allowing people to show new kinds of animated movies, or to display a live, interactive view of their own computer, etc. [[User_talk:Saijanai_Kuhn/Plugins_discussion| Discuss here]].

* The Second Life server is the main computer that your own computer connects to when you start Second Life. It starts a login process which allows you to eventually start roaming the Second Life world with your avatar. Without any plugins at all, the main communication is directly between your client and the current server running the land your avatar is standing on, also known as a "simulator."

* The Second Life client is the program you download in order to connect to Second Life.

* With [http://lib.openmetaverse.org/wiki/SLProxy Gridproxy Gridproxy], you can add a program that intercepts data as it comes to your computer or is sent out to the Second Life simulator. This allows you to add new features to Second LIfe by installing plugins that modify/insert/delete the data before it can reach its final destination. Gridproxy could create a local webpage to control a given plugin and thereby give you a robust GUI for the plugin, or, you could use the new media plugin to add a GUI on a prim in some way within the main viewer window.

===[[Media_Rendering_Plugin_Framework| Media Rendering Plugin]]===

{| Border = "0"
| With the new media rendering plugin framework defined by Linden Lab, developers can now add new functions to Second Life without requiring Gridproxy. Basically, the plugin is able to draw directly onto a prim and the Second LIfe viewer is able to detect mouse-button clicks and the words you type within the prim and pass your text and mouse movement back to the media plugin. This allows for some pretty neat possiblies, like the ability to show a program window or computer screen running on a prim [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_Network_Computing using VNC]

===[http://www.avatarpuppeteering.com/ Puppeteering Plugin]===

{| Border = "0"
| With the [[Puppeteering|never finished puppeteering code]] written by Linden Lab, combined with an extension to the new media plugin, developers could create plugins that would would allow animators, mechanimators, etc, to animate one or more avatar using sophisticated programs and scripts directly.||<videoflash>Mfc66AIKh9o|thumb</videoflash>
|}

User:Saijanai Kuhn/Plugins discussion

2009-10-25T21:36:35Z

Saijanai Kuhn: /* New Media plugin */

[[Image:new diagram.svg|right|500px]]

==[[Media_Rendering_Plugin_Framework| New Media plugin]]==

This is some rambling about the new Second Life viewer plugins and how it could be extended. Such plugins could have many uses, from allowing people to show new kinds of animated movies, or to display a live, interactive view of their own computer, etc. [[User_talk:Saijanai_Kuhn/Plugins_discussion| Discuss here]].

* The Second Life server is the main computer that your own computer connects to when you start Second Life. It starts a login process which allows you to eventually start roaming the Second Life world with your avatar. Without any plugins at all, the main communication is directly between your client and the current server running the land your avatar is standing on, also known as a "simulator."

* The Second Life client is the program you download in order to connect to Second Life.

* With [http://lib.openmetaverse.org/wiki/SLProxy Gridproxy Gridproxy], you can add a program that intercepts data as it comes to your computer or is sent out to the Second Life simulator. This allows you to add new features to Second LIfe by installing plugins that modify/insert/delete the data before it can reach its final destination. Gridproxy could create a local webpage to control a given plugin and thereby give you a robust GUI for the plugin, or, you could use the new media plugin to add a GUI on a prim in some way within the main viewer window.

===[[Media_Rendering_Plugin_Framework| Media Rendering Plugin]]===

{| Border = "0"
| With the new media rendering plugin framework defined by Linden Lab, developers can now add new functions to Second Life without requiring Gridproxy. Basically, the plugin is able to draw directly onto a prim and the Second LIfe viewer is able to detect mouse-button clicks and the words you type within the prim and pass your text and mouse movement back to the media plugin. This allows for some pretty neat possiblies, like the ability to show a program window or computer screen running on a prim [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtHO4AtVSwc interactively]. || {| <videoflash>TtHO4AtVSwc|300|300</videoflash>
|}

===[http://www.avatarpuppeteering.com/ Puppeteering Plugin]===

{| Border = "0"
| With the [[Puppeteering|never finished puppeteering code]] written by Linden Lab, combined with an extension to the new media plugin, developers could create plugins that would would allow animators, mechanimators, etc, to animate one or more avatar using sophisticated programs and scripts directly.||<videoflash>Mfc66AIKh9o|thumb</videoflash>
|}

User talk:Saijanai Kuhn/Plugins discussion

2009-10-25T21:34:59Z

Saijanai Kuhn: Created page with 'Leave your comments here:'

Leave your comments here:

User:Saijanai Kuhn/Plugins discussion

2009-10-25T21:25:13Z

Saijanai Kuhn: /* Puppeteering Plugin */

[[Image:new diagram.svg|right|500px]]

==[[Media_Rendering_Plugin_Framework| New Media plugin]]==

This is a discussion about the new Second Life viewer plugins and how it could be extended. Such plugins could have many uses, from allowing people to show new kinds of animated movies, or to display a live, interactive view of their own computer, etc.

* The Second Life server is the main computer that your own computer connects to when you start Second Life. It starts a login process which allows you to eventually start roaming the Second Life world with your avatar. Without any plugins at all, the main communication is directly between your client and the current server running the land your avatar is standing on, also known as a "simulator."

* The Second Life client is the program you download in order to connect to Second Life.

* With [http://lib.openmetaverse.org/wiki/SLProxy Gridproxy Gridproxy], you can add a program that intercepts data as it comes to your computer or is sent out to the Second Life simulator. This allows you to add new features to Second LIfe by installing plugins that modify/insert/delete the data before it can reach its final destination. Gridproxy could create a local webpage to control a given plugin and thereby give you a robust GUI for the plugin, or, you could use the new media plugin to add a GUI on a prim in some way within the main viewer window.

===[[Media_Rendering_Plugin_Framework| Media Rendering Plugin]]===

{| Border = "0"
| With the new media rendering plugin framework defined by Linden Lab, developers can now add new functions to Second Life without requiring Gridproxy. Basically, the plugin is able to draw directly onto a prim and the Second LIfe viewer is able to detect mouse-button clicks and the words you type within the prim and pass your text and mouse movement back to the media plugin. This allows for some pretty neat possiblies, like the ability to show a program window or computer screen running on a prim [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtHO4AtVSwc interactively]. || {| <videoflash>TtHO4AtVSwc|300|300</videoflash>
|}

===[http://www.avatarpuppeteering.com/ Puppeteering Plugin]===

{| Border = "0"
| With the [[Puppeteering|never finished puppeteering code]] written by Linden Lab, combined with an extension to the new media plugin, developers could create plugins that would would allow animators, mechanimators, etc, to animate one or more avatar using sophisticated programs and scripts directly.||<videoflash>Mfc66AIKh9o|thumb</videoflash>
|}

User:Saijanai Kuhn/Plugins discussion

2009-10-25T21:24:37Z

Saijanai Kuhn: /* Puppeteering Plugin */

User:Saijanai Kuhn/Plugins discussion

2009-10-25T21:22:00Z

Saijanai Kuhn: /* Puppeteering Plugin */

User:Saijanai Kuhn/Plugins discussion

2009-10-25T21:20:19Z

Saijanai Kuhn: /* Media Rendering Plugin */

[[Image:new diagram.svg|right|500px]]

==[[Media_Rendering_Plugin_Framework| New Media plugin]]==

This is a discussion about the new Second Life viewer plugins and how it could be extended. Such plugins could have many uses, from allowing people to show new kinds of animated movies, or to display a live, interactive view of their own computer, etc.

* The Second Life server is the main computer that your own computer connects to when you start Second Life. It starts a login process which allows you to eventually start roaming the Second Life world with your avatar. Without any plugins at all, the main communication is directly between your client and the current server running the land your avatar is standing on, also known as a "simulator."

* The Second Life client is the program you download in order to connect to Second Life.

* With [http://lib.openmetaverse.org/wiki/SLProxy Gridproxy Gridproxy], you can add a program that intercepts data as it comes to your computer or is sent out to the Second Life simulator. This allows you to add new features to Second LIfe by installing plugins that modify/insert/delete the data before it can reach its final destination. Gridproxy could create a local webpage to control a given plugin and thereby give you a robust GUI for the plugin, or, you could use the new media plugin to add a GUI on a prim in some way within the main viewer window.

===[[Media_Rendering_Plugin_Framework| Media Rendering Plugin]]===

{| Border = "0"
| With the new media rendering plugin framework defined by Linden Lab, developers can now add new functions to Second Life without requiring Gridproxy. Basically, the plugin is able to draw directly onto a prim and the Second LIfe viewer is able to detect mouse-button clicks and the words you type within the prim and pass your text and mouse movement back to the media plugin. This allows for some pretty neat possiblies, like the ability to show a program window or computer screen running on a prim [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtHO4AtVSwc interactively]. || {| <videoflash>TtHO4AtVSwc|300|300</videoflash>
|}

===[http://www.avatarpuppeteering.com/ Puppeteering Plugin]===

{| Border = "0"
| With the [[wiki/Puppeteering} never finished puppeteering code]] written by Linden Lab, developers create plugins that would allow animators, mechanimators, etc, to animate one or more avatar using sophisticated programs and scripts directly.

<videoflash>Mfc66AIKh9o|thumb</videoflash>

User:Saijanai Kuhn/Plugins discussion

2009-10-25T21:07:31Z

Saijanai Kuhn: /* Media Rendering Plugin */

User:Saijanai Kuhn/Plugins discussion

2009-10-25T21:05:51Z

Saijanai Kuhn:

[[Image:new diagram.svg|right|500px]]

==[[Media_Rendering_Plugin_Framework| New Media plugin]]==

This is a discussion about the new Second Life viewer plugins and how it could be extended. Such plugins could have many uses, from allowing people to show new kinds of animated movies, or to display a live, interactive view of their own computer, etc.

* The Second Life server is the main computer that your own computer connects to when you start Second Life. It starts a login process which allows you to eventually start roaming the Second Life world with your avatar. Without any plugins at all, the main communication is directly between your client and the current server running the land your avatar is standing on, also known as a "simulator."

* The Second Life client is the program you download in order to connect to Second Life.

* With [http://lib.openmetaverse.org/wiki/SLProxy Gridproxy Gridproxy], you can add a program that intercepts data as it comes to your computer or is sent out to the Second Life simulator. This allows you to add new features to Second LIfe by installing plugins that modify/insert/delete the data before it can reach its final destination. Gridproxy could create a local webpage to control a given plugin and thereby give you a robust GUI for the plugin, or, you could use the new media plugin to add a GUI on a prim in some way within the main viewer window.

===Media Rendering Plugin===

{| Border = "0"
| With the new [[Media_Rendering_Plugin_Framework| media rendering plugin framework]] defined by Linden Lab, developers can now add new functions to Second LIfe without requiring Gridproxy. Basically, the plugin is able to draw directly onto a prim and the Second LIfe viewer is able to detect mouse-button clicks and the words you type within the prim and pass your text and mouse movement back to the media plugin. This allows for some pretty neat possiblies, like the ability to show a program window or computer screen running on a prim [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtHO4AtVSwc interactively]. || {| <videoflash>TtHO4AtVSwc|300|300</videoflash>
|}
*

User:Saijanai Kuhn/Plugins discussion

2009-10-25T20:53:03Z

Saijanai Kuhn: /* heading */

Stub for plugin discussion

=[[Media_Rendering_Plugin_Framework| New Media plugin]]

[[Image:new diagram.svg|right|600px]]

==This shows the possible data flows for for generic Second Life viewer plugins.==

==The Second Life server==

* is the main computer that your own computer connects to when you start Second Life. It starts a login process which allows you to eventually start roaming the Second Life world with your avatar. Without any plugins at all, the main communication is directly between your client and the current server running the land your avatar is standing on, also known as a "simulator."
==With [http://lib.openmetaverse.org/wiki/SLProxy Gridproxy]==
* you gain the ability to intercept data as it comes to your computer or is sent out to the Second Life simulator. This allows you to add new features to Second LIfe by installing plugins that modify/insert/delete the data before it can reach its final destination. Gridproxy could create a local webpage to control a given plugin and thereby give you a robust GUI for the plugin, or, you could use the new media plugin to add a GUI on a prim in some way within the main viewer window.

==Media Rendering Plugin==

{| Border = "0"
| With the new [[Media_Rendering_Plugin_Framework| media rendering plugin framework]] defined by Linden Lab, developers can now add new functions to Second LIfe without requiring Gridproxy. Basically, the plugin is able to draw directly onto a prim and the Second LIfe viewer is able to detect mouse-button clicks and the words you type within the prim and pass your text and mouse movement back to the media plugin. This allows for some pretty neat possiblies, like the ability to show a program window or computer screen running on a prim [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtHO4AtVSwc interactively]. || {| <videoflash>TtHO4AtVSwc|300|300</videoflash>
|}
*

File:New diagram.svg

2009-10-25T20:25:05Z

Saijanai Kuhn: uploaded a new version of "File:New diagram.svg"

User:Saijanai Kuhn/Plugins discussion

2009-10-25T02:59:57Z

Saijanai Kuhn: /* Media Rendering Plugin */

Stub for plugin discussion

=heading=

[[Image:new diagram.svg|right|600px]]
==heading 2==

==This shows the possible data flows for for generic Second Life viewer plugins.==

==The Second Life server==

* is the main computer that your own computer connects to when you start Second Life. It starts a login process which allows you to eventually start roaming the Second Life world with your avatar. Without any plugins at all, the main communication is directly between your client and the current server running the land your avatar is standing on, also known as a "simulator."
==With [http://lib.openmetaverse.org/wiki/SLProxy Gridproxy]==
* you gain the ability to intercept data as it comes to your computer or is sent out to the Second Life simulator. This allows you to add new features to Second LIfe by installing plugins that modify/insert/delete the data before it can reach its final destination. Gridproxy could create a local webpage to control a given plugin and thereby give you a robust GUI for the plugin, or, you could use the new media plugin to add a GUI on a prim in some way within the main viewer window.

==Media Rendering Plugin==

{| Border = "0"
| With the new [[Media_Rendering_Plugin_Framework| media rendering plugin framework]] defined by Linden Lab, developers can now add new functions to Second LIfe without requiring Gridproxy. Basically, the plugin is able to draw directly onto a prim and the Second LIfe viewer is able to detect mouse-button clicks and the words you type within the prim and pass your text and mouse movement back to the media plugin. This allows for some pretty neat possiblies, like the ability to show a program window or computer screen running on a prim [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtHO4AtVSwc interactively]. || {| <videoflash>TtHO4AtVSwc|300|300</videoflash>
|}
*