Second Life Wiki - User contributions [en]

User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2010 March 18

2010-03-18T19:06:52Z

Which Linden: Created page with '* [11:02] Enkidu Linden: hey y'all * [11:02] Leslie Scribe: Hello * [11:03] Which Linden: what's up, grub! ...'

* [11:02] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: hey y'all
* [11:02] [[User:Leslie Scribe|Leslie Scribe]]: Hello
* [11:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: what's up, grub!
* [11:03] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hello all
* [11:04] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: so Which, what's up, how are the last day as a Linden :)
* [11:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Interesting!
* [11:04] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hehe i bet
* [11:04] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hi Which. :-))) Much sadness :-(
* [11:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Well, it always sucks to be a dead man walking
* [11:04] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yeah lol
* [11:04] [[User:Leslie Scribe|Leslie Scribe]]: You too? Crud.
* [11:05] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Which, you're leaving?!
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah, tomorrow's my last day
* [11:05] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: :-((((((
* [11:05] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: :(
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'm gonna miss you all
* [11:05] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: i've been FFFFFUUUUUU since he told me
* [11:05] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: we'll miss you too
* [11:06] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: hi :)
* [11:06] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Well we assume Which XXXX will return as a reincarnation :-)
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh I should see if there's a Which Hax
* [11:06] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: haha
* [11:06] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hehe
* [11:06] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: lol
* [11:06] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: I have a Hax avie
* [11:06] [[User:Eddi Decosta|Eddi Decosta]]: miew
* [11:07] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: not saying who tho ;)
* [11:07] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: use the grid powers while you still have them xD
* [11:07] [[User:Leslie Scribe|Leslie Scribe]]: Which Pinden might be a bad idea.
* [11:07] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: While you still have god powers, get yourself a Which When :-)
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: whoa our registration is way better than it used to be
* [11:07] [[User:Eddi Decosta|Eddi Decosta]]: yike an incect ^^
* [11:08] [[User:Eddi Decosta|Eddi Decosta]]: hi all, sorry my late
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Dahlia, you're New Hax, just admit it :P
* [11:08] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hahahaha
* [11:08] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: lmao
* [11:08] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Dahlia reckoned that must have been a 13-year old.
* [11:09] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: no my trolling skillz are nowhere near New Hax's
* [11:09] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: nice bonus bear
* [11:09] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: <3 the bear :)
* [11:10] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Keep us up to date on where you end up, Which, right?
* [11:10] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Please!
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Samara Collas made the script in hte bear, in case you can't tell
* [11:10] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: Which, you'd better bequeath all your sweet inventory
* [11:10] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: TO ME
* [11:10] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lool
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Sure I'll keep you guys up to date, I have like tiwtter and stuff
* [11:10] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: sighs "What will I do between 11 and 12 on a Thursday now!?!"
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Dude my inventory is so bare
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: (no pun intended)
* [11:10] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: WHICH: CAN I HAVE UR SWORD?
* [11:10] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: which is which's twitter
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I have screenshots of people upside down on sphere
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: and objects that reproduce bugs
* [11:11] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: that's ballsy
* [11:11] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: do you get to keep your Which Linden inventory?
* [11:11] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Oh, good question.
* [11:12] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: so Enkidu, are you taking over the office too? :P
* [11:12] [[User:Jonathan Yap|Jonathan Yap]]: Is Which leaving LL?
* [11:12] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yes
* [11:12] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: :-(
* [11:12] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: nods to Jonathan :(
* [11:12] [[User:Jonathan Yap|Jonathan Yap]]: awwww
* [11:12] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: i would but i work in a different office
* [11:12] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I guess I'll just transfer my inventory to an alt
* [11:12] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: One alt name that I'm proud of is OMG Loll
* [11:12] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: i would sit at his desk and sing the which linden am i song
* [11:12] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: can you leave your bamboo grove behind? It's a bit of a landmark.
* [11:12] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Enkidu, I think Latif meant the OH. If he didn't, I certainly want to know if you'll be taking over the hour!
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Sure, morgaine, can't say when someone's going to claim it though
* [11:13] [[User:Eddi Decosta|Eddi Decosta]]: Wich; you leave ll too?
* [11:13] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, trasfer the land to Enkidu :P
* [11:13] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: oh office hours!
* [11:13] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Would be nice if all ex-Linden offices were left around. Build up a history of nice places.
* [11:13] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: maybe i should!
* [11:14] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: 'tis a plan, oh yes....
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: That's right! Insert Rocky training montage!
* [11:14] [[User:Jonathan Yap|Jonathan Yap]]: I am a bit late, was what to do with you wiki OH logs talked about?
* [11:14] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: then i could showcase how little i know in regularly scheduled intervals
* [11:14] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hahaha
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Jonathan: I presume they'll just stay up on the wiki
* [11:15] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: What's the LL policy on wiki pages of ex-Lindens? They are very useful resources. The account gets zapped, but the wiki pages don't, right?
* [11:16] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: oops I almost squished Enkido :(
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah.
* [11:16] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: sorry Enkido :(
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I mean the pages aren't even protected
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Just disables my ability to log in
* [11:17] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Does somebody add a "No longer at Linden Lab" banner?
* [11:17] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: are you guys really interested in hearing from me weekly?
* [11:18] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I could still edit as PunchYouInTheFace Unplugged
* [11:18] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Of course, Enki! (Even if it's just social :P)
* [11:18] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: which is an awesome band name
* [11:18] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Enkidu, yes!
* [11:18] [[User:Flimsey Freenote|Flimsey Freenote]]: you will be missed Which, ive learned alot at your OH's
* [11:18] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Otherwise I'd have to do something constructive with this time!
* [11:18] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
* [11:18] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yeah, working sucks :P
* [11:18] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: If anythign, you'd be less useless than me, cause you occasionally work on something customer-facing
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Thanks Flimsey. Interestingly, I've learned a lot myself from doing these!
* [11:19] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I loved your non-customer facing things though Which, like all the discussions about CHTTP and key escrow.
* [11:19] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: yeah
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah that was fun
* [11:20] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: nods to Morgaine "Some of us like the techy side of virtual worlds and how they work."
* [11:20] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: well, i'm cool with holding OH if you guys are cool with me saying "i don't know" every few minutes
* [11:20] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: i might spice it up with a "no idea" or i'm clueless" if that helps
* [11:20] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Wait... is that a Rodney Linden in the background?
* [11:20] [[User:Flimsey Freenote|Flimsey Freenote]]: accepted your inventory offer.
* [11:20] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Crap! I almost missed it!
* [11:20] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: variety is good :)
* [11:20] [[User:Flimsey Freenote|Flimsey Freenote]]: ty Which
* [11:20] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: hey Ceawlin!
* [11:21] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Hi y'all!
* [11:21] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hey Ceawlin
* [11:21] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Haha, "I don't know" is perfect. The bad stuff is "I'm not allowed to say". Nobody in Groupies likes secrecy.
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha, hey rodney
* [11:21] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: hiya C :)
* [11:21] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Is it an actualy OO or a Which Send-Off Party? :3
* [11:21] [[User:Leslie Scribe|Leslie Scribe]]: Oh no. Is Rodney standing behind me again? His bears explode.
* [11:21] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: hi Rodney. Had wondered if you had just mis-teleported or were actually heading this way....
* [11:21] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: more like a send off party :)
* [11:21] [[User:Rodney Linden|Rodney Linden]]: :)
* [11:22] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Enki: the moral there is, when you're not allowed to say, just reply "I don't know" :-))
* [11:22] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: oooo I see Rodney and I dont have a Rodney bear yet *hint hint*
* [11:22] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: offers a toast to Which. :3
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: We can talk about technical stuff, but I've mostly cut down my responsibilities so that all I have to work on is EVentlet
* [11:22] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: sadly, in most cases i actually don't know
* [11:22] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: rodney's bear radioactive i hear ;)
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh and I fixed the bug where occasionally L$ balances in the viewer would be wrong
* [11:22] [[User:Jonathan Yap|Jonathan Yap]]: I would also like to see that bear :)
* [11:23] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: seconds the toast to Which. May you have a wonderful future Which, and not forget old friends in Virtual Worlds :-)
* [11:23] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, nice :)
* [11:23] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: then it can shed some green light on the other bears :)
* [11:23] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: That was a good one to get off my plate before departing
* [11:23] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Where are ya going from here, Which? :P
* [11:23] [[User:Flimsey Freenote|Flimsey Freenote]]: toasts Which, wishes you all the best
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: You know, I used to be pretty nervous about going to these OH
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: You are a scary lot
* [11:24] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: We can flame you so it will feel like old times, if you want. ;3
* [11:24] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: I'm going to have to run, alas. Take care of yourself Which, and good luck for the future!
* [11:24] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: DAMMIT WHICH!!
* [11:24] [[User:Flimsey Freenote|Flimsey Freenote]]: lol Which
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Thanks Xugu, take it easy
* [11:25] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: also, can I have a bear? :)
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I think I was scared though because I always gotta be on my toes here
* [11:25] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: why? lol
* [11:25] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: We don't aim to be scary. Me, I just want VWs to take off, and good tech to be used.
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah I know :)
* [11:26] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Damn Morg, I'd hate to see you -try- to be scary. ;3
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: That's what I learned!
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: burn!
* [11:26] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: !stand Morgaine
* [11:26] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: notes that Rodney is avoiding bear requests....
* [11:26] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Ceaw: it's not in me, it requires the ability to manipulate to be really scary. No diplomacy here :-)
* [11:27] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: accepted your inventory offer.
* [11:27] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Lawl
* [11:27] [[User:Jonathan Yap|Jonathan Yap]]: Thank you Rodney for the bear :)
* [11:27] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: thank you both Lindens!
* [11:27] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Sorry, people I had to go prepare for are arriving already. Take care all!
* [11:27] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Cyu Xugu :-)
* [11:27] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: see you, xugu
* [11:27] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: So where will we go aside from Babbage for techo-geeky OO nao? :< I didn't find out about the gem of Which OO until too late. :P
* [11:28] [[User:Flimsey Freenote|Flimsey Freenote]]: off the record, can someone please hack youtube so my media will work... thanks
* [11:28] [[User:Eddi Decosta|Eddi Decosta]]: accepted your inventory offer.
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I dunno, I think all Lindens should do OH
* [11:28] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Flimsey: I'll get Latif right on it :P
* [11:28] [[User:Jonathan Yap|Jonathan Yap]]: Flimsey, what exactly is the trouble?
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Maybe just half an hour at first
* [11:28] [[User:Rodney Linden|Rodney Linden]]: I've considered starting mine back up
* [11:28] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Yea! We could totally troll M's. :3
* [11:28] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: xD
* [11:28] [[User:Flimsey Freenote|Flimsey Freenote]]: they changed the security thing again
* [11:28] [[User:Rodney Linden|Rodney Linden]]: i have a giant tower in this region
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: That's a lot less commitment, and it lessens the expectations
* [11:29] [[User:Rodney Linden|Rodney Linden]]: oh.. right, it's next to us.. heh
* [11:29] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: i have yet to wander past this bamboo grove
* [11:29] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: As a Linden, you get to be a little wary because a lot of pressure is put on you to fix what's wrong with SL, but you also know that anything you say will be used against you
* [11:29] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I'd like LL Legal to do OHs
* [11:29] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: That would be amazing
* [11:30] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The legal people here are actually hilarious
* [11:30] [[User:Rodney Linden|Rodney Linden]]: an entirely redacted meeting?
* [11:30] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: HAHAHA
* [11:30] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Rodney - -
* [11:30] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: And Rodnet++ for comedy :-)
* [11:30] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: ya some of their comedy gets published too (TVP)
* [11:30] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: LOL
* [11:30] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: But, I mean, realisitically how could the first N of those legal OH not end up being a browbeating session>?
* [11:31] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: And/or people looking to jump the queue for stufff
* [11:31] [[User:Eddi Decosta|Eddi Decosta]]: well, new play game for now crush Enkidu :p
* [11:31] [[User:Eddi Decosta|Eddi Decosta]]: LOL
* [11:31] [[User:Rodney Linden|Rodney Linden]]: Enkidu Crush
* [11:31] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: smells burnt toast...
* [11:31] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: To some degree my OH are made a lot easier because of the fact that I don't have anything customer-facing to say most of the time
* [11:31] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: We can toast him. :3
* [11:31] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: if a lawyer tried to claim X and we dispute that X exists in law, then we would quite validly ask for the legal theory that backs it. It's not browbeating.
* [11:32] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I guess if we screwed the pooch w.r.t L$ then it could have been different
* [11:32] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: was always baffled why tech lindens were afraid to talk to resi's
* [11:32] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hah, that's true, but not-browbeating I think is a property that evolves over time
* [11:32] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Cos we flame so much!!!
* [11:32] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Look at opensource-dev./.. Lol.
* [11:32] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Heh right
* [11:32] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: I'd hide under a stump and quiver if I were me. :3
* [11:33] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: well that list is one big flamebait
* [11:33] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: but OH are nicer :)
* [11:33] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Oh, a community free-for-all isn't browbeating either, that's totally normal. Herd of cats :P
* [11:33] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah but it's hard to not feel responsible
* [11:34] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Aye, agreed.
* [11:34] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Though I guess if anyone can make themselves feel not-responsible it's a lawyer
* [11:34] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Meow. :3
* [11:34] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: HAHAHA
* [11:34] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Try the veal ;)
* [11:35] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: So, any hints on what your future work might be? Or taking a vacation first?
* [11:36] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: You should start a company that develops MMOs for mobile phones and then hire me. :3 Lol.
* [11:36] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
* [11:36] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: he's going to sell stuff door to door
* [11:36] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: [http://icanhascheezburger.com/2008/02/26/funny-pictures-sqirl-scout-cookyz/]
* [11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: My intention is to learn how to make inherently interesting games
* [11:36] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: vacum cleaners?
* [11:36] [[User:Flimsey Freenote|Flimsey Freenote]]: lol
* [11:37] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: What kind of games? :3
* [11:37] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: i just found out desktop tower defense went multiplayer
* [11:37] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: is interested in behavioral aspects of games
* [11:37] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: I have a keen interest in such things and would like to follow any blahgs that you might happen to publish on the subject. :3
* [11:38] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: wanna implement a scalable virtual world using Erlang for massive concurrency? VWRAP-compatible of course :-)
* [11:38] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Dahlia++
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Argh I hate typing when the focus is in the wrong field
* [11:38] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Game AI is very interesting
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah I'm also interested in the behavioral aspects of games, especially flow
* [11:39] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: not ai, player psychology
* [11:39] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Dahlia: oh, you mean PI (Pathological Intelligence)
* [11:39] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The current trend of using external rewards (points, etc) to get the player to do boring tasks isn't quite what I want but it's certainly a skill to learn
* [11:39] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: I am interested in player sociology. Like giving the players a shared game-world and letting them do what they want with it to an extent, and seeing what happens, lol.
* [11:40] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: no I mean stuff like reinforcement schedules
* [11:42] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: has a quest to resurrect some old mainframe multiplayer games as webapps, too. :3 Lol.
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It's hard to extricate external rewards from reinforcement schedules....in fact aren't they the same thing?
* [11:42] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: you might be interested in what the "reward" is in Guild Wars, which is notionally an EverQuest or WoW-type MMO. In theory the reward is the usual one, overcoming odd, killing foes, and completing quests and missions. But that's a decoy. The actual reward for those who really understand the game is programming the game AI for your "hero" sidekicks, and interacting with those AIs. Quite orthogonal to the game :-)
* [11:43] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: that's your reward Morgaine ;)
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hah cool
* [11:43] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: But you have to have that one expansion that I don't have for that, right? :3
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Well games have two types of things you can do: inherently interesting, and rewarded
* [11:43] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Dahlia: yes. Doesn't apply to everyone
* [11:44] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Programming AIs seems like an inherently interesting thing, and is pretty much the most intereting thing I've heard about GW ever
* [11:44] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: I had to quit playing all the games except for ones that I am writing myself or contributing content to. Was wasting too much time before that. :3 Lol.
* [11:44] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: I enjoy programming too, and consider it rewarding to some extent
* [11:44] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The thing about inherently interesting activities is that there is no explicit reward for doing them
* [11:44] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Ceawlin: hehe. Cheap though. And no monthly subscription of course.
* [11:45] [[User:Flimsey Freenote|Flimsey Freenote]]: waves bye to Which, wanders back to work
* [11:45] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Yea, I do on occasion fire up some GW or DDO for an hour or two, rationalizing it as "research". :3
* [11:45] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Cyu Flim :-)
* [11:45] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Bai Flimsey!
* [11:45] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: sure, programming is more likely not a direct reward, rather one what was conditioned
* [11:45] [[User:Eddi Decosta|Eddi Decosta]]: hmmmm, coffeee :0
* [11:45] [[User:Eddi Decosta|Eddi Decosta]]:
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'm not sure it can be boiled down to skinner so directly, Dahlia, but maybe I'm wrong about that
* [11:46] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: Skinner? he was really just a beginning
* [11:47] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: what were your examples of inherently interesting games again?
* [11:47] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I think SL and Opensim will end up supporting game worlds anyway. Certainly in principle VWRAP will support anything on the endpoints of the protocol.
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: But yes I have been surprised with how much people in general (myself included) like doing "boring" things
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: yeah that's my hope
* [11:47] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: boring?
* [11:48] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: we do boring things to attain goals, don't we?
* [11:48] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: In my multiplayer gaming, the actual game was "boring" for sure, but it was the social interaction with people that made it fun.
* [11:48] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: outside of games
* [11:48] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Enkidu: sometimes it feels good to do something boring just for the microgoals
* [11:48] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: I think that if you have a vibrant community, even endless games of tic tac toe will be interesting. :3
* [11:48] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Like, "I just reformatted that line of text, yay"
* [11:49] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: haha
* [11:49] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Ceawlin yes agreed but in part that's cause the community is itself a game
* [11:49] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: I think that's what makes things like KoL and Dwarf Fortress interesting. :3
* [11:49] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: SL™ seems boring after I've been here for a while, at least the content part, but I am still here
* [11:49] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: C.f. dplomacy
* [11:49] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Well look at EverQuest, it was a life of extreme drudgery, purposely made hard and hostile by Sony. Why did people play? Not because they enjoyed suffering (mostly), but because of the interaction with people and with AIs.
* [11:49] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: DF is pretty cool on its own, but KoL??? Lol.
* [11:49] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: i just imagined a farmville-esque Gutenberg Librarian
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Click to Shelve Books
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha ha actually that's a brilliant idea
* [11:50] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: endless recaptchas
* [11:51] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Dahlia: that's the main reason for low beginner retention rate, the boredom of nothing obvious to do. It's had nothing to do with unwieldy viewer.
* [11:51] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: there was lots to do when I first started
* [11:51] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Speaking of that, did anyone visit that survey url I posted up here a few weeks ago?
* [11:51] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: pgdp.net always seemed kind of game-like to me
* [11:51] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: there's probably still a lot I havent seen
* [11:52] [[User:Leslie Scribe|Leslie Scribe]]: idlely wonders if her clothes showed up today.
* [11:52] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: hands Leslie a garter that appeared out of nowhere
* [11:52] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: I am rewriting a mainframe game that I used to love in the 80s and adding some crappy graphics and gonna see if people dig it. It is kind of an inherently fun game in a droolsome way, but I am hoping that people will dig it. :3 Ever heard of Avatar/DND? [http://www.dizzydragon.net] and [http://www.ceawlin.com/projects/DNDHUD/] :3
* [11:53] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Thanks Ceawlin :-)
* [11:54] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: tap tap
* [11:54] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Is this thing on?
* [11:54] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: plays a trumpet. :3
* [11:54] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: this looks cool
* [11:55] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: I wish I could shoot my toast up into the air at people. ;3
* [11:55] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah nice work there
* [11:55] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: Ceawlin, cool :)
* [11:55] [[User:Leslie Scribe|Leslie Scribe]]: I guess I missed the survey.
* [11:55] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Me? Thankies. :3
* [11:55] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I love how your top screenshots shows two viewer instances running
* [11:56] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Lol
* [11:56] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: I have many faces. :3 Or no face at all when I am a toaster. :3
* [11:56] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: that's a HUD?
* [11:56] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: The earlier one is, yea.
* [11:56] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: With media on a prim, isn't anything huddable?
* [11:56] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: The actual game runs out of 4 scripts, but then it takes 43 more to make the graphics change interactively. X_x
* [11:57] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: lol
* [11:57] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: yep LSL
* [11:57] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Well, the old single-player one anyway.
* [11:57] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: I ditched the old LSL multiplayer client, and am gonna redo it when 1.38 is out, and use kinda reverse comet from the server to get around the http request throttling. :3
* [11:58] [[User:Jonathan Yap|Jonathan Yap]]: Which, if you ever open a shop I would buy some of this bamboo. :)
* [11:58] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Until someone catches me doing it and puts a throttle on incoming http. :3
* [11:58] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Jonathan: no way man, there's way better stuff out there
* [11:58] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: I wanna be able to just open a persistent TCP socket from LSL. :<
* [11:58] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: get your bamboo before Enkido nibbles it all ;)
* [11:58] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The screenshot up there above the red couch is of some better stuff
* [11:58] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Looks good to me.
* [11:59] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol Dahlia
* [11:59] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Are you still gonna hang in SL, Which? :<
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Ceawlin: well certainly a lot less
* [11:59] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I'm waiting for Enki to transform into a butterfly :-)
* [11:59] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: You should get on AWG with a non-linden AV and yack wif us. :3
* [11:59] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: yes have your alt friend me please :)
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: If I have time
* [11:59] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yes!
* [12:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I hear the game industry is notoriously time-intensive
* [12:00] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: :P
* [12:00] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: it is
* [12:00] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: forget life
* [12:00] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: And cutthroat. =:O
* [12:00] [[User:Eddi Decosta|Eddi Decosta]]: Which same time for me if you want
* [12:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ah right lonetorus made this (to my eyes) better bamboo
* [12:00] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: They;re like pirate/viking/ninjas all rolled into one!!
* [12:01] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Oh jeez, I hope you don't get into that kind of 90-hour weak thing. The games industry is a sweatshot for devs. They take advantage, and it's no longer fun. :-(
* [12:01] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: week*
* [12:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: No, definitely not that kind of company
* [12:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I know which ones are like that and will avoid
* [12:01] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: I think the ideal thing is to make license plates for The Man 20 hours per week and spend the rest of your time doing your own thing while living in a hillbilly shack out in the middle of nowhere where the rent is cheap. :3
* [12:02] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Haha Ceaw
* [12:02] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hehe
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: 20 hours? That's a lot
* [12:02] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Ceaw: don't forget to mention motorcycling through the hills for stress relief
* [12:02] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: the only problem is that cheap rent usually means crappy internet ;)
* [12:02] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: That too. :3
* [12:03] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: It wouldn't start earlier today. I am worried. :3
* [12:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'll only spend 20 hours being the hired muscle for Dead concerts
* [12:03] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Haha Which
* [12:03] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: But I think I flooded it. :3
* [12:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: OK friends, it's about time!
* [12:03] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: hillbilly shack! i love it
* [12:03] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: D:=
* [12:03] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Awww.
* [12:04] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: has to go, but wishes Which all the best in the hereafter :)
* [12:04] [[User:Jonathan Yap|Jonathan Yap]]: Thank you Which, and best of luck in the future
* [12:04] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Well, good luck, which! I wish I'd happened upon your office hours earlier!
* [12:04] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Take care which. It's been a pleasure to work with you :-)
* [12:04] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: bye all, tc Which and stay in touch with us :)
* [12:04] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: tell you what, guys. i'll look into office hours of my own and will be back here next thursday to let you know what's up
* [12:04] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Keep us filled in on your doings. :3
* [12:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I wish you all, all the best as well
* [12:04] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Enki: super :-)
* [12:04] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: What kinds of stuffs do you work on, Enki?
* [12:04] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: kewl Enkido, we'll come here and roast you ;)
* [12:05] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Thank you Which :-)
* [12:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: A finer ragtag bunch could not be found to run a pirate ship
* [12:05] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, take care, and all the best luck in your future endeavours :)
* [12:05] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Arrgh!
* [12:05] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Avast!
* [12:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Awesome enki!
* [12:05] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: waves and poofs...
* [12:05] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: I'll toast yer hardtack, matey!
* [12:05] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: i'm in the web group mainly working on the unseen magic
* [12:05] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Ohhh.
* [12:05] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: The secret sauce, huh? :O
* [12:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Boardin' http servers and stealin html booty, methinks!
* [12:05] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Argh!
* [12:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: OK laters!

User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2010 March 11

2010-03-11T20:10:17Z

Which Linden: Created page with '* [11:02] Which Linden: hi! * [11:02] Enkidu Linden: heyyyy * [11:02] Poppy Linden: hi there * [11:02] [[Use...'

* [11:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hi!
* [11:02] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: heyyyy
* [11:02] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: hi there
* [11:02] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hiya Which!
* [11:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: is it petty of me to be cheesed off that the telehub in beaumont is totally far away from here?
* [11:02] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: hi which
* [11:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so hey there I have a question for you all
* [11:03] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I hate regions that override teleport.
* [11:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: what open source projects have amazing uis?
* [11:03] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: vi
* [11:03] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: :P
* [11:03] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
* [11:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I meant "usable", not "amazingly bad" :P
* [11:03] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: adium
* [11:03] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Good question though
* [11:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: checks out adium
* [11:04] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: growl
* [11:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: don't limit yourself to downloadable applications; one I thought of was wordpress
* [11:04] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i kind of like chrome minimalistic style
* [11:04] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Most interesting UI I know for a FOSS app is Ardour -- [http://ardour.org/]
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oh neat, audio stuff
* [11:05] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: oh there are many amazing world-changing concepts if you include the we apps
* [11:05] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: ardour is definitely interesting, i still haven't figured it out.
* [11:05] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: s/we/the
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: web apps are not often open source though
* [11:05] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: mediawiki?
* [11:05] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: markdown
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: good one, though I personlaly am not a fan of their UI
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: (of mediawiki)
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: markdown? That's like a library
* [11:06] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Urgh. Web apps barely qualify as "UI" in my book. While the web is amazing, the web browser takes "UI" to a new low.
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I guess the UI of markdown is the text your write
* [11:06] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: yup
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I would nominate inkscape
* [11:07] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Oh, yeah, I agree, Inkscape is not bad at all UI-wise.
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but am not familiar enough with Illustrator to know whether inkscape is better or just a clone or worse and different
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I like it a lot; I'm much more productive than I was with AI, but I also stopped using AI with version 7
* [11:08] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: inkscape is quite different
* [11:08] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: GIMP's UI has the same problem of SL viewer's UI. They were both created by putting UI elements into a liquidizer.
* [11:08] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: oh cool, i was just thinking i needed an svg editor
* [11:09] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol gimp, which was not asking about anti-exemples :P
* [11:09] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hehe
* [11:09] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Argh, sorry was distracted by clients. X_x If you want a somewhat less aggrivating web-based UI toolkit, I like GWT. You dun have to futz with as much evil JS that way. :3
* [11:10] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: I never relized this untill now. But the SL UI come very close to the GIMP UI as far as bad UI goes.
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ouch
* [11:10] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: not even close lol
* [11:10] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Enkidu, you frighten me D:
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: is that viewer 2 or 1?
* [11:10] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: since 2 is much worse than 1 on UI, don't even ask :-(
* [11:10] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: Flip a coin.
* [11:10] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: I have to agree with Morgaine, heh.
* [11:10] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: aw really?
* [11:11] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: IT's a hassle to do group notices with attachments, for example.
* [11:11] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: You have to open a separate inventory window any time you want to do that.
* [11:11] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Sicne inventory and group tabs are stuck together on the sidebar, and you can only use one at a time.
* [11:11] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: some bits of the SL ui are very difficult yes, but it's not bad overall
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I think everyone knew it'd be worse for power users, which all of you are
* [11:11] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Editing asset permissions in inventory has the same kind of problem.
* [11:11] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: (talking about 1)
* [11:11] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: I don't even think that works actually..
* [11:11] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Enki: I like exploring new UIs, and would still be on it today if I didn't have to abandon it owing to low FPS. I go to live music events a lot, and it's not viable.
* [11:12] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: WHich means it will be bad for anyone who sticks out SL for more than a few months. Or does anyting more than a few meetings.
* [11:12] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: More examples of good open source UIs?
* [11:12] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Mojito: my concern exactly.
* [11:12] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, for me the main problem with 2.0 UI is not that is not as power user friendly, it's that its too in your face obscuring the wonderful world of SL
* [11:12] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: People who stick with SL will be wanting the features that experienced users need.
* [11:12] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: But if the strategic direction is just toward people who only DO use it just for a few meetings...
* [11:13] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Our aim is for new users to -Become- experienced users.
* [11:13] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Omnegraffle is a good vector editor. exports svg
* [11:13] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: That is clearly NOT Linden's aim
* [11:13] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: 2.0 just doesn't have that flexibility.
* [11:13] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I think the aims got confused.
* [11:13] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: for example local chat was much more user-friendly in 1.23, and i really didn't see any usability problems with it
* [11:13] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: My only real complaints about v2 are (1) atrocious framerate, compared to the emerald build I was using before, and (2) the non-tearoffable-stuff in the sidebar, and the fact that floaters stay on top of the sidebar when it pops out. :3
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Sai: yeah omnigraffle is the shit. closed-source though
* [11:14] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Locla chat is not somehitng the new corporate customers will use.
* [11:14] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: Ceawlin, https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_2_Tweaks has the sidebar fixes. Including going over floaters.
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: agh sorry didn't mean to derail this into a referendum on viewer 2
* [11:15] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Which: frankly, the fact that many lindens have seemingly sloughed off experienced user negative feedback as "We knew it would be a hard transition" irks me a lot.
* [11:15] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: :P
* [11:15] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: but the semi-transperent overlay for localchat is soo much nicer for virtial world than the ugly rectangular things that pop up now
* [11:15] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Sebastian++
* [11:15] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Example of confused aims: claiming "more obvious to beginner", yet removing the two Map buttons and placing them in a menu instead. Doh! </slaphead>
* [11:15] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: So we are talking about UIs in general?
* [11:15] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: and why can't the map button be on the bottom button bar if you want?
* [11:16] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: As Sai says.
* [11:16] [[User:Quarterback Orcenhall|Quarterback Orcenhall]]: hi all
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah.....I think poppy's suggestion of markdown was clever and out-of-the-box
* [11:16] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Yes, make it customizaable. Like Microsoft Office. Or OpenOffice
* [11:16] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Good UIs are flexible, and can grown with the user.
* [11:16] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: or.. ZBrush
* [11:16] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: map button would be nicely placed next to home button on the address bar
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Zbrush is open source?
* [11:16] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: no
* [11:16] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: If you make enough configurable, and easy enough to configure, people will like it, because it can become what they need.
* [11:16] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: nyah, but the UI rocks
* [11:16] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: I hate to admit it, but i think jedit is good.
* [11:17] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: in parts
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Ha ha ha
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh -- Eclipse
* [11:17] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: no
* [11:17] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: uh oh
* [11:17] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: that is not good design
* [11:17] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: it's passable
* [11:17] [[User:george Fairywren|george Fairywren]]: hello my name is george and i am new in sl
* [11:17] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: eclipse is emacs of 21st century :P
* [11:17] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Hi George :)
* [11:17] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: but that is def an example of too many cooks in the kitchen / unfocused mayhem
* [11:17] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hey george
* [11:18] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I would not say Eclipse had a friendly UI
* [11:18] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: In general, I think that chasing a "user-friendly UI" is kind of like a mirage. What is user friendly to one set is not to another. The key to making a good UI, imo, is to make the UI configurable enough for the power user to be able to fiddle it until they are makying the minimum number of keystrokes/clicks possible, while keeping the default layout not overwhelming to new users.
* [11:18] [[User:george Fairywren|george Fairywren]]: how are you all
* [11:18] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: hey goearge, this is an ultra-geek discussion grouip. You're welcome to join in,
* [11:18] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: The only good good UI is one in which you can place whatever you want wherever you want. You make that highly flexible system easy for beginners through PRESETs. The "Beginner" preset would show only those things that won't confuse, and you supply a range of others for Builder, Social, etc. And you let experts save their own named Presets, any number of them for different purposes.
* [11:18] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Eclipse has a great UI if you are a hacker. It probably kinda sucks if you are a 2st year CS student, though.
* [11:18] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: My point exactly Ceawlin :
* [11:18] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: :)
* [11:18] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: *1st
* [11:18] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: people use it because it's extensible and does 90% of their work for them
* [11:18] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Mojito: me neither, but when it came out it was head and shoulders above every other IDE
* [11:19] [[User:george Fairywren|george Fairywren]]: thank you what are we deisscusing
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hi george! These are my office hours
* [11:19] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: Good open source UIs
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I asked about open source projects that have good user interfaces
* [11:19] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Oh yes, and I use Eclipse all the time. But NetBeans is cleaner
* [11:19] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: some universities use Eclipse to teach their beginning programming classes
* [11:19] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Which opened a can of worms - which I thought,, being a plant, he might actually enjoy, hehe.
* [11:19] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Morgain, agreed, Photoshop is the best example of configurabe UI and presets for all sort of different uses. Would've been great if SL could be as flexible
* [11:20] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: If you work in multiple labguages, Eclipse can be a pain, because you have to keep manually changing the "perspective"
* [11:20] [[User:george Fairywren|george Fairywren]]: i think open source is agood idea
* [11:20] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: So the usability we're talking about is more design oriented and anecdotal feel. The great thing about usability is that it's testable; it's a science
* [11:20] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: it's also a myth :P
* [11:20] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Make sure you select an appropriate test group though
* [11:20] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: I don't mind Eclipse being kind of a mess. I can do almost everything I want to do with 2 clicks or less. Not too familliar with netbeans though, but if it's clean and everything is hidden away in safe places, it's probably more clicks/keys to git 'er done. :3
* [11:20] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Appropriate, and large enough.
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The best UI is no UI at all
* [11:20] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: my professor used to say "the only intutive iterface is a nipple, everthing else is learned" :P
* [11:21] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: ha
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'm pretty sure that UI is only a short image search away
* [11:21] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I remember reading studies on UI design decades ago. It turns out thyere are two diamettrically opposed ways people look at the world, and learn things. I succueessful UI must cater to BOTH
* [11:21] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: People need the ability to delve into the user interface and change it. Those who aren't interested in changing it, won't have to. But those that need to, can.
* [11:22] [[User:george Fairywren|george Fairywren]]: i think its a fact that programs evolve just like animal life does and open source ui are no exception
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Mojito: what were the two ways?
* [11:22] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I think americans might have a problem with all UIs being nipples.
* [11:22] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Too bad the viewer is not more modular. We could just have the whole UI be kind of a plugin, with the core viewer engine driving multiple totally different UIs, which the user could choose from. ;P
* [11:22] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Best I can recal...
* [11:22] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: One was, having general rules in your head, and applyihng those to individual cases.
* [11:22] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: The other was the opposite - learning by example, and mentally inferring the general principle
* [11:22] [[User:Quarterback Orcenhall|Quarterback Orcenhall]]: lol nice look ceawlin
* [11:22] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: George, feel free to have a seat :)
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Ah, interesting
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: plenty of room on das couches
* [11:23] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: There was a simple test you can take to see which way of thinkgin you are
* [11:23] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: An interesting fact was that the results of that test cluster by profession
* [11:23] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I assume programmers are more in the "learning by example" category
* [11:23] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: So physicists and mathemeticians think one way, and managers the other
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hm actually now that I said that I am less sure
* [11:24] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Yes, I am not sure about that
* [11:24] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: I wonder if programmers clump that way?
* [11:24] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Which - I think osme people are a little bit of both. It can depend on situation and application.
* [11:24] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: managers think?
* [11:24] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: For example, if yo understand BNF< you can learn a language form that
* [11:24] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: But if you ar enot trained in such concepts, you want examples.
* [11:24] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Very few would since its completely alien to how we learn a language as we grow up
* [11:24] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: gets a funny picture of programmers clumping
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yes; my approach to documenting Eventlet has been to pour on the examples
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Since that's how I like to learn
* [11:25] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I am not sure I can find the references now. It was in the late 70's
* [11:25] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: We're like blood!
* [11:25] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: clumps to Morgaine
* [11:25] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Going back to the eclipse example, I learned it by intuition when I first started using it. The stuff is where you expect with the context menus and stuff. Conversely, I spent like 5 minutes last night trying to find the about land window, before I noticed the little circle-i in the nav bar. >_> Lol. Maybe I am dumb though. <_<
* [11:25] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: feels doughy
* [11:25] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: A big mistake is to assume all your users think the same way you do
* [11:25] [[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]: I'd think most programmers are myers-briggs NT, like to have a symbolic theory, kind of people. Doesn't mean we read the instructions though.
* [11:26] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: The Myers-briggs test is a good indicator for this sort of thing
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Ceawlin: I think that is an example of UI consistency (or lack)
* [11:26] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: is INTJ. :P
* [11:26] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Well in UIs, Mojito is 100% right. There is only one thing guaranteed about UI decisions, and that it that YOU ARE WRONG. :-)
* [11:26] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: most programmers i know like to learn by example
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: That's actually kinda fun, Morgaine; UI design is more like science
* [11:27] [[User:george Fairywren|george Fairywren]]: programmers will do what programmers do despite if we want it or not
* [11:27] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: I like a bit of theory thrown in at spots too, Latif
* [11:27] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Well, once you know a couple languages, you want to learn a new one quickly and you want to know, "what is different?"
* [11:27] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Yea, what Morg said. So I think the key is to make it flexible enough, configurable enough, that the user can make it right for -them-, once they are off the training wheels.
* [11:27] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Personally, I learn by experimentation most of the time. If something doesn't work, I try something else. Sometimes I'll ask, but generally I explore.
* [11:27] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The challenge is, I think, what would make your user want to even reach that point of needing customizability
* [11:27] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: For example, some parts of the V2 UI can be hidden. Like that silly Favorites bar. First thing I did. But that is about the limit of what I can do.
* [11:27] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: 90% of people won't
* [11:28] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: perhaps it's like science in virtual worlds --- they all have difference physics so different things are "true". It's certainly not like RL physics though --- just the opposite, nothing objective in UIs at all.
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So configurability is kind of a 10% thing
* [11:28] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Probably off topic a little, but one of the things that annoys me to no end with -both- SL clients is the inability to tear floaters off into their own windows. Makes multihead setups virtually useless for SL development. ;P
* [11:28] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: That's an issue with the rendering engine
* [11:28] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: 110% wrong :-)
* [11:28] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Which, people wanting to get to that point has nothing to do with the UI, other than how much the UI obstructs them. What makes people what to stay, is what they can DO here. What they can enjoy.
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I think that UI design can have some objectivity. Otherwise it wouldn't be possible
* [11:28] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: exactly. It's not possible
* [11:28] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I use a gaim with windows within a 3D view, and IT can do tear-offs. Dont see why SL can not
* [11:28] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Not a setup that mom and pop are probably using, but I think most of the hackers you run across are probably using at least two heads. :3
* [11:29] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Sebastean: agreed about SL, but we were talking about user interfaces in general
* [11:29] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: everything is rendered into the game view, which is a single rectangle
* [11:29] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: It's definitely a science that has researchers
* [11:29] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: and experiments
* [11:29] [[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]: Hence the pie menus. :-o
* [11:29] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Poppy: it's a pseudo-science that has researchers who are ALL WRONG
* [11:29] [[User:george Fairywren|george Fairywren]]: SL will evolve they way it wants to it willlike the grain in the stone in the acent of man
* [11:29] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: That's a fun way to think about scienticif things, btu it's not useful
* [11:30] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: For exaple, the RealXtend viewer "Naali" uses Qt for all its dialog windows. Those can be painted wither inside the main window, or outside, with no change in code.
* [11:30] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Poppy: the best they can do is identify UI features that are BAD for a majority of people. That's as far as it goes.
* [11:30] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: henri had a good summary about v2 ui on opensource-dev
* [11:30] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: What about the fact that some people and companies seem to consistently do better at UI?
* [11:30] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: just saying "science is wrong" does not actually make a science wrong; it has a hypothesis, you can try proving that is wrong instead.
* [11:30] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Poppy: UI design isn't science.
* [11:30] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: That seems to point to the existence of objective principles
* [11:30] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I agree a bad UI will drive people away in the first 30 minutes. But a boring world will drive them away eventually as well.
* [11:31] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Jobs has good taste, visually. Gates doesn't. End of story
* [11:31] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Poppy: straw man. Don't go there please. I did not say science is wrong.
* [11:31] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Define "better"? Apples supposedly rawk, but I suck at figuring out GUI environments and would much rather just have a screen full of xterms. :<
* [11:31] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, that is up a discussion too ;)
* [11:31] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: "better" := more people can use them without help
* [11:31] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: ceawin, so you like Mac OS X's terminal app?
* [11:32] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I would hate to see the Xterm version of CakeWalk SONAR, or any of the pro music apps
* [11:32] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Which: show people a beautiful world, and they will want to get help for the things they don't know.
* [11:32] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Feynman would spin in his grave to hear UI design referred to as a "science". Jeez
* [11:32] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i absolutelly hate mac os x. i think finder is the worst file management gui ivetned
* [11:32] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: Morgaine: [http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all~content=a785033721]
* [11:32] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: The key with Apple UI is that they made sure it works as expected. No lag is a big thing, I used an mp3 player once and it was sooooooo slow UI wise that it was fusterating scrolling though the playlist.
* [11:32] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: it's a science
* [11:32] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: sorry
* [11:32] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Sebastean: I totally agree, but that's a special case
* [11:33] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Sebastean: for example, if people want to make a drawing, the UI is pretty much the only distinguishing factor amongst software
* [11:33] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: I'm not arguing that the researchers are all correct
* [11:33] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Poppy: pseudo-scientists calling themselves scientists doth not a science make.
* [11:33] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: I guess for me it keeps coming back to the tired ol' "separate the business logic from the UI" spammery. Imo, the perfect UI would be one that we could replace without breaking the rest of the app. ;P
* [11:34] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, Photosjhop won because it had the most customizable UI
* [11:34] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I will go along with saying that the testing of a UI can be done scientifically. Does it meet this or that goal. But if you go in with the wrong goals, you will optimize it for the wrong thing. You will have the wrong goals if you do not understand your customers and you
* [11:34] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: would you categorize all research that involves humans as "not science"?
* [11:34] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: do not listen to them
* [11:34] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: Morgaine, that's an awfully big brush to paint an entire discipline in this day and age
* [11:34] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Ceawlin: I'd argue that the UI *is* the app :)
* [11:35] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: There is no app that is not like that
* [11:35] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Oh, I disagree entirely
* [11:35] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Poppy, fact is, if there was such an easy formula to good UI, we wouldn't be discussing it
* [11:35] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Which, from the user's perspective, it certainly is
* [11:35] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Maybe. I dunno. Different philosophies, I guess. ;P
* [11:35] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: For a Virtual WOrld, the UI is *not* the app
* [11:35] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Latif, there IS a fomrula for specific elements just not for the entire "look and feel"
* [11:35] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: To me, the app is what it does, not how the uesr tells the app how/when to do what it does.
* [11:35] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: If researchers use the scientific method, publish their research with peer review, i'm not sure what else to call it
* [11:35] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Linden does not sell a UI. It sells a Virtual World experience. Please do not confuse the two
* [11:35] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Even for a command-line app the UI is "I pressed a few keys to compute an answer rather than figure it out by hand"
* [11:36] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Which, I'm just saying that perhaps more focus should have gone to maintaining experienced users instead of just admitting it would be hard for them, so they could continue to create content/interact easily, etc. It should have been asked,"Ok, we have a starting point for newbies, how can we make this better for vets?"
* [11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Mojito: mostly agreed; the content is the app
* [11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Same with the web
* [11:36] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: Latif, sadly there are no simple formulas for good UI still :\
* [11:36] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Or, "How can we make it so that vets can make it better for themselves?"
* [11:36] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: it's getting all plato v. aristotle up in this piece
* [11:36] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: The Third Pary Viewer policy clearly impleis that V2 is THE Linden viewer, and anyone wanting a different experience will have to look to a third party viewer.
* [11:37] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha ha
* [11:37] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: (laughing at enki)
* [11:37] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: It's dangerous to look to webapps for like, how to design an app stuff. I think most webapps are just a thin UI thrown overtop of a database. SL is a great deal more complicated than that, imo. :3
* [11:37] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Whether for better disbaled access (which Linden has expressed ZERO interest in) or the power builder user
* [11:37] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: admires Fitts' Law as limited as it is...
* [11:37] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Poppy: nope, physiological studies can be highly scientific. But studies based on preference are well into the "soft" area where validity as science is questionable. Don't mix up the measurement side of the scientific method with science as a whole. The theoretical side of such human studies is so threadbare that you cannot model it with any kind of mathematical strength, and so your hypotheses can only be weak, and so correlating observations with hypotheses is only weak too. That's why it's called "soft" science. The mathematical rigor is quite poor.
* [11:37] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Whatever man, I totally worked on a project that slightly increased access for the disabled
* [11:38] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Which speaks Like, Linden
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: I think you're mixing up UIs that you like with UIs that require less training to use
* [11:38] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Talking of accessibility, what happened to Viewer 2.0? Mouseover on media? EWWW!
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I agree that preference is subjective; performance is not
* [11:38] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: The message I got fomr the VAI people was that the people they had evaluating V2 beofre it was released felt their feedback was ignored.
* [11:38] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: what happened to having streaming media on prims?
* [11:38] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: hi :)
* [11:38] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hey Dahlia
* [11:39] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Hiya
* [11:39] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: toasts Dahlia. "Hai!"
* [11:39] [[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]: Youtube on a cube seems to work for everybody but you, Sai, sorry.
* [11:39] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: ( I am so donna wear out that pun... )
* [11:39] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: (subtle dig at LIndens who tell Saijanai that his experience is too rare to worry about, V2-wise)
* [11:39] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: *gonna
* [11:39] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Toasts are actually on topic --- the accessibility of the toasts is nil.
* [11:39] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: LOL
* [11:39] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Sai, tell them about the JIRA form other Mac users
* [11:39] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: Morgaine, it just sounds like we have a difference of opinion about "soft" science, which I doubt we'll come to agreement on here.
* [11:40] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: That's not true Latha. There are 15 votes on that jira, and they appeared within a few days of hte release. I suspect I'm the only person having hte problem who still bothers to use V2
* [11:40] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Sai: that happened to me with windlight; got completely posterized images, the graphics team said "buh, doesn't happen on my machine"....eventually nvidia updated their drivers and it went away
* [11:40] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: I'd just like to hear the designer's arguments for replacing 1.23 localchat with 2.0 local chat. I see zilch improvement for experienced and new users alike. Did anyone every hear about any n00b asking how to use local chat and were unable to figure it out?
* [11:40] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Poppy: you're probably right. Being the scientist type with first degree as a hard engineer, I don't have much time for sloppy sciences.
* [11:41] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: puts "Hard Engineer" on his resume
* [11:41] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: chuckles
* [11:41] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: it only happens on a handful of systems, but its annoying as heck. Even the embedded browser is "old school"
* [11:41] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Is that like a Civil Engineer?
* [11:41] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Only counts as engineering if steel I-beams are involved
* [11:42] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I carry a large spanner / wrench in OSgrid :-)
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Is Android completely open source?
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: or is it partial?
* [11:42] [[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]: I think the prim media stuff is pretty fantastic. I like how I can interact with it. I don't know how to fix the accessibility stuff. What do accessible browsers look like anyhow?
* [11:42] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: some apps are not
* [11:42] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: google maps for example isn't
* [11:42] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: the os itself is opensource
* [11:42] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: checks inventory... nope no Poppy bear *flutters wings at Poppy*
* [11:43] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: The O/S is, and Dalvik is.
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Maybe that counts as an open source project with a good UI
* [11:43] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hehe
* [11:43] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: nods
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Ubuntu has decent UI
* [11:43] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: GNOME, you mean
* [11:44] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah but Ubunbtu tinkers with it a bit yeah?
* [11:44] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Just a little.
* [11:44] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Maybe they just theme it
* [11:44] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So OK GNOME
* [11:44] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Well Linux as a whole has a totally configurable UI. But that's kind of cheating, or misusing the term "UI".
* [11:44] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I thikn so
* [11:44] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah, probably Morgaine
* [11:44] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Too diffuse of a project
* [11:44] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: The discussion seems to be that Open Source is a bad way to do UI design. That is a Red Herring.
* [11:45] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: No that's not it at all
* [11:45] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: There are plenty of closed source bad UIs
* [11:45] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: well, how many OPenSource programmers are UI gurus?
* [11:45] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I didn't sense that that was the topic, Mojito.
* [11:45] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Which kept asking for examples of good OS UIs
* [11:45] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: There does seem to be a growth in open source designers
* [11:45] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Mojito: yeah, cause I think there are a lot out there that we don't know about
* [11:45] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: There is no such thing as an UI guru. There are only opinionated people who claim they are.
* [11:46] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Look at the contributed theme library for Gnome. SOme of those people must be color blind
* [11:46] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: And they're all wrong. At best they can tell you what to avoid, as clearly bad.
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Heh I felt the same about the wordpress themes
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: 90% fuggo
* [11:47] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I was about to say that whoever coloured the viewer IM tabs is obviously color blind.
* [11:47] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: I still think "Good" is totally subjective, depending on the type of user sitting at the keys. :3 I still say aim for flexibility rather than specifics, enabling the community to make their own tweaks, and then when the community finds what it likes, you can roll it back into the core project. :3
* [11:47] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: There is a program on the HGTV channel, where this interior designer keeps picking deeply saturated colors for walls! What an idot.
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha I saw that one
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ColorSplash, right?
* [11:47] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: yes
* [11:47] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yep, it's totally subjective. Even cultural.
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: That's his schtick
* [11:47] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: And the compliuant customers never push back
* [11:48] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: My GF actually submitted our place to get designed by his show
* [11:48] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Deep Purple walls? What are you thinking? Get out of our house!
* [11:48] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ph33ars
* [11:48] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: So it becomes, "Flexible == good", not "This particular layout == good" :3
* [11:48] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
* [11:48] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: keeps his fingers crossed which's girlfriend doesn't get selected xD
* [11:48] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Just watch that OTHER HGTV show about Why My House Wont Sell. To begin with, you have deep purple walls in the libing room...
* [11:49] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'd love to see a flexible UI that is also good for beginners; it seems that designers optimize for one or the other but not both
* [11:49] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I think UI design requires extreme meekness. "I know I am wrong, so I will give you the infrastructure to correct my initial suggestions."
* [11:49] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: maybe Firefox is such an example
* [11:49] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: its ui is pretty damn customizable
* [11:49] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: But I pretty much never do
* [11:49] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: NetBeans is customizable. You can drag icons all over the place
* [11:50] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i do use tons of firefox extensions for fixing the gui
* [11:50] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Download Statusbar for the win
* [11:50] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I usually just eliminate icons until iot all fits on one row, to save space.
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oh yeah -- you can even get the address bar into the title bar
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: pain in the butt though
* [11:51] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: viewer 2 needs an option to put address bar in the menu bar :)
* [11:51] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Zbrush is the uber-custimizable one --- move ANYTHING from a panel to a frame. I actually though Viewer2.0 was trying to do that initially, but nothing was moveable, and the sidebar was a mammoth fixed monolith, urgh.
* [11:51] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Generally though, the V2 UI clutters up my view of the Virtual WOrld a lot more than V1 did. And the World is the Experience.
* [11:51] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: I think viewer 2 would have to start rendering the title bar itself
* [11:51] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: saves world view, and a lot of people use highres these days
* [11:51] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, not the title bar, menu bar
* [11:51] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oh
* [11:51] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: I don't really mind the address bar , but having the parcel limitations off by default seems like a silly thing to do. (just came back from afk). A new user would have NO idea why he couldn't fly for example ,or why his scripted obejct wasn't working, even if he knew where to look for parcel info.
* [11:51] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah, that'd be cool
* [11:51] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I just turn off the address bar. I NEVER use it
* [11:52] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, if you are running high-res you waste precious horisontal space on address bar, option to put it in the empty space on the menu bar would be a big win
* [11:52] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Let me drag it where-ever I like.
* [11:53] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Mojito, you cannot tell where you are without the address bar
* [11:53] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: alright folks: I have sort of an announcement here. This is my second-to-last office hours, I'm leaving the Lab at the end of next week
* [11:53] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I know where I am - I teleported there.
* [11:53] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: . . .
* [11:53] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: no good way to drop that in there
* [11:53] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: aww :(
* [11:53] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Which :(
* [11:53] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: that's my least favorite thing you've ever said
* [11:53] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Address bar does nothing useful except for the Home button. Address bar completely misconceives how we hop around the world --- we NEVER backtrack our path with '<<' from region to region. It provides an irrational region access model.
* [11:53] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: So everything we have been telling you is going nowhere.. :(
* [11:54] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, is LL intent of getting all competent people out?
* [11:54] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I've really enjoyed working with you all and my office hours every week
* [11:54] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Even though we complain a lot? Heh.
* [11:54] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Mojito: well it's going on the wiki
* [11:54] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Doesnt count if the LL UI people do not hear it
* [11:54] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: enjoyment doesn't translate into having any effect though. Nothing residents say ever makes you depart from the path you plan. Ever.
* [11:54] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Pathfinder, now Which?
* [11:55] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Rob linden
* [11:55] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: all the good one :(
* [11:55] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Robin too
* [11:55] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Can you tell us anything about a big recent reorg in the Lab?
* [11:55] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Joel
* [11:55] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: and we get Pink in replacement lol
* [11:55] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: This is surprisingly hard; this is the saddest announcement I've had to make
* [11:55] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Prospero
* [11:55] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It was way easier to just tell Enkidu the other day
* [11:55] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: dag
* [11:55] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Mojito: no major reorg that I'm aware of, that could just mean I'm unobservant though
* [11:56] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, very sad to hear it :(
* [11:56] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Thats what Pathfinder told us
* [11:56] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Maybe it only affected marketing
* [11:56] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: None of the bad Lindens ever leave, just the ones that everyone likes.
* [11:56] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Pathfinder told us his position no longer existed due to reoganization.
* [11:56] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I was all "sup dude, could you order some notgonnaworkhereanymore soup from that pho place?"
* [11:56] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh, yeah, I don't know what's up with Path, that was a surprise to me too
* [11:56] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Which, we hope you have a good place to go after LL?
* [11:57] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Sebastean: I'm intending to join the game industry, but no specific place yet
* [11:57] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: gives Which a large pack of plant fertilizer for the road.
* [11:57] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Oh cool. :3
* [11:57] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: If you start building web-based games in java, give me a call. :P Hahaha
* [11:57] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: which must've badmouthed M's plan :P
* [11:57] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: That's right, someday you'll be shooting some dude in the face and I'll be all "I made the brains splatter"
* [11:58] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: will you be showing in SL regularly or will we be forced to "stalk" you?
* [11:58] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Beginning a new tradition where, in exchange for bears, we give Lindens bags of cow poop
* [11:58] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I don't know yet, Sai.
* [11:58] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: I haven't gotten to come to your office hours often Which, but I'm really sorry to hear you're leaving. I've enjoyed your office hours.
* [11:58] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'll fire up an alt I guess just in case
* [11:58] [[User:Aimee Linden|Aimee Linden]]: will be looking out for Bambo based weapons
* [11:58] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I've enojyed them too Sebastean; super-interesting discussion always transpires
* [11:59] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: I'm going to miss your weekly sessions --- they've often hooked more deeply into technology than other OHs :-(
* [11:59] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Aimee, I didn't see you there
* [11:59] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Which, who will be taking your place, if you know?
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: My place?
* [11:59] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: waves to Aimee 'Stealth' Linden ;-)
* [11:59] [[User:Aimee Linden|Aimee Linden]]: we've not employed Who yet
* [11:59] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: lol
* [11:59] [[User:Aimee Linden|Aimee Linden]]: I believe he's busy working on time travelly type things
* [11:59] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: they don't need techs, they'll hire another Pink clone lol
* [12:00] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Yeah, the code works. Just need marketing
* [12:00] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Neat. We need Pink to design the next generation of SL infrastructure.
* [12:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: LOL
* [12:00] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Well, I figured they need someone to do the coding that you have been doing thusfar.
* [12:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The three fine Lindens here are certainly capable of carrying on the mission
* [12:01] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: The next SL infrastructure will be supplied by Google, when they buy it out.
* [12:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hah I've actually not been coding that much lately
* [12:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Except on Eventlet
* [12:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but even then not much
* [12:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: kind of a Peter principle really
* [12:01] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: So while all the UI people were slkaving away for 18 months on V2, the server side people did nothing much?
* [12:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'm actually not that great of a coder truth be told
* [12:01] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: blames Amiee, since it's all her fault.
* [12:01] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: HA!
* [12:02] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: my ass
* [12:02] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: That's a given
* [12:02] [[User:Aimee Linden|Aimee Linden]]: yup
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I don't know about nothing much, this bitchin' martini shaker begs to disagree with that assessment
* [12:02] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: That's actually what we hypothesized in jest in Groupies: Zero went into his "3-5 year sekrit project" huddle because Google bought you out and said "Please rm -rf all this non-scalable infrastructure."
* [12:02] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
* [12:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: That woulda been cool, but, not to my konwledge
* [12:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: MAybe they've been seeding us with spies
* [12:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Heh I guess they can just read our email
* [12:03] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: NExt thing you know, we'll be hearing that Vektor is leaving :(
* [12:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Heh, I'll tell him that you think so well of him. :)
* [12:04] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Which, for old time's sake, do you have a bamboo bear?
* [12:04] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: I do think well of him. I love Vektor, heh.
* [12:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Sure, who wants a bear?
* [12:05] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: is sorry to see Which go and wishes him the best in the next realm
* [12:05] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Oh, I'd like a bamboo bear, even though I don't collect bears. Would be nice momento :-)
* [12:05] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: I do I do
* [12:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: and after bears I should gtfo
* [12:05] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: I would like one Which.
* [12:05] [[User:Aimee Linden|Aimee Linden]]: me!
* [12:05] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: ahh, it's late
* [12:05] [[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]: accepted your inventory offer.
* [12:05] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: hell, give me one
* [12:05] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: where's my bear
* [12:05] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: And I do hope that you have a lot of well-earned fun in your next job.
* [12:05] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: accepted your inventory offer.
* [12:05] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: accepted your inventory offer.
* [12:05] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: accepted your inventory offer.
* [12:05] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: BEAR time! YAY!
* [12:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: doh missed
* [12:06] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: i'll god-pwn it, make it 100m tall and have it devastate the mainland.
* [12:06] [[User:Which Bear|Which Bear]]: (bonus): Hello Which Linden. Youre welcome ;o). Greetz from Which Linden
* [12:06] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Dahlia, did you get Enkidu's yet?
* [12:06] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: lol
* [12:06] [[User:Aimee Linden|Aimee Linden]]: accepted your inventory offer.
* [12:06] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: yep but I'll take another :D
* [12:06] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: i actually haven't made one yet
* [12:06] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: accepted your inventory offer.
* [12:06] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: accepted your inventory offer.
* [12:06] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Thanks Which :-)
* [12:06] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: if i get which's bear, i'll just give it out
* [12:06] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: oh Im confused then
* [12:06] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Neither has Nyx :P You two can have a bear-making group.
* [12:06] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: accepted your inventory offer.
* [12:06] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: accepted your inventory offer.
* [12:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: everyone's getting one
* [12:07] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: ty LD
* [12:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: welcome to oprah
* [12:07] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: haha
* [12:07] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Thank you Which
* [12:07] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: thanks
* [12:07] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: can I have an extra for a friend?
* [12:07] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: No copy, Dahlia
* [12:07] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: bounces up and down impatiently
* [12:07] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: ty :D
* [12:07] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: now these get extra valuable sice which is leaving ;)
* [12:07] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: "everyone's getting a twitter! it's under your seat!"
* [12:07] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: accepted your inventory offer.
* [12:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: bahaha, the economy of scarcity!
* [12:07] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: accepted your inventory offer.
* [12:07] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hahaha
* [12:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: don't worry, I'm sure we'll write a dupe exploit sooner or later
* [12:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: :)
* [12:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: and with that, I'm gonna head out
* [12:08] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: lol
* [12:08] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: we'll put Which Bear on e-bay :P they don't make them anymore xD
* [12:08] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: giggles
* [12:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: see you next week
* [12:08] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: no bear for moi?
* [12:08] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Take care Which, see you next week :-)
* [12:08] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: bye :)
* [12:08] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: And we'll have to check creators for copy-bot mimick scams.
* [12:08] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: see you Which, take care :)
* [12:08] [[User:Latha Serevi|Latha Serevi]]: accepted your inventory offer.
* [12:08] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Take care Which
* [12:08] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Thanks Which!
* [12:08] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: see you all around!
* [12:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: latha's in my way sai
* [12:09] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: accepted your inventory offer.
* [12:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: heh take care
* [12:09] [[User:LoLa Varriale|LoLa Varriale]]: accepted your inventory offer.
* [12:09] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: no excuses

User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2010 March 4

2010-03-04T20:04:24Z

Which Linden: Created page with '* [11:05] Enkidu Linden: hello * [11:05] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Here he is. * [11:05] Enkidu Linden: ...'

* [11:05] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: hello
* [11:05] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Here he is.
* [11:05] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: yay
* [11:05] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Enkidu, were you involved in Linden homes stuff?
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: what's up, hippies!
* [11:05] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hey Which
* [11:05] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: only in the most peripheral way, latif
* [11:06] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: hey Which!
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hi, how is everybody?
* [11:06] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: is recovering from an illness he's had for the past two days.
* [11:06] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: great :)
* [11:07] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Good! Evil plans progressing to, erm, plan. The day job is quieter, too....
* [11:07] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: How's the chaos at LL?
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: chaotic!
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I think I'm getting sick
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: in fact I'm sure of it
* [11:07] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: eek
* [11:07] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: get lots of sleep!
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: easier said than done!
* [11:07] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: some bug jumped from the code to organic? :P
* [11:07] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: LOL.
* [11:08] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: It's good that the chaos is chaotic, though. If it was strawberry-like, I'd have questions
* [11:08] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: that'd be delicious!
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: the Lab wil never be a neat and tidy organization
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I've always been amazed at how stable communities are
* [11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Even as their membership cahnges
* [11:09] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: raises an eyebrow "We're comparing to nitro glycerine,right?"
* [11:09] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: heyhey
* [11:09] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: hey lone :)
* [11:09] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: hey lone!
* [11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The Lab is no exception -- even though it's added hundreds of people over the years and shedded some true oldbies, we still have a fair bit of that original semi-anarchist attitude
* [11:10] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: which, are you going to talk about eventlet?
* [11:10] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Although more seriously, I suppose yes, they do tend to continue in a similar shape, regardless of the smaller chaos
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Enkidu, I could
* [11:10] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Hey there Which
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Heh, it has been my focus for the past few weeks
* [11:10] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: me gives Which fertilizer.
* [11:10] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: yes, but the lab has also slowly grown more rigid and slow, at least it seems so looking from the outside
* [11:10] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: looks attentive
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hi Sebastean
* [11:10] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: If I ran over anyone coming in, I apologize.
* [11:11] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: gives which fertilizer*
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Agreed; hopefully it's a temporary binding
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So ok good topic sggestion Enkidu
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: eventlet!
* [11:11] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: tries to remove the hoof imprint on the back of his skull
* [11:11] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: i'm interested!
* [11:11] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: enkidu is well armored
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: it makes networking not suck
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: in python
* [11:11] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Hey there Enkidu
* [11:11] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: hiya
* [11:11] [[User:Bethany Zipper|Bethany Zipper]]: eeek! a talking plant!
* [11:12] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: can anyone give a quick sexplanation what eventlet is
* [11:12] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: sees a Poppy.
* [11:12] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: -s
* [11:12] [[User:Bethany Zipper|Bethany Zipper]]: A...a..are u a triffid?
* [11:12] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The simplest way I've found to explain eventlet is that it is a lightweight threading library
* [11:12] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: I for one welcome our new frond-ed overlords
* [11:12] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It doesn't provide true threads, it provides greenthreads
* [11:13] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Hey Poppy
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Which are better because you can have more of them
* [11:13] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: to make a a work more paralel?
* [11:13] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: hey poppy!
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: And because they are cooperative rather than preemptive
* [11:13] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: hello.
* [11:13] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hey poppy
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: lone: yeah, to do more work in parallel
* [11:13] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: i talked zed into using eventlet for something he's been doing after hours
* [11:14] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: do you have to yeild control manually?
* [11:14] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: but without loosing control of order (greenthreads)
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: They have the strengths of event-driven I/O which has become a major buzzword lately,but you program things as though you're writing standard blocking code
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So, no explicit yields necessary
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Cool, enkidu, what project? Can you say?
* [11:16] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: i want to! but he'd like some time to incubate it
* [11:16] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: whitch, i suppose you are involved in the xstreet and sl balance merge?
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: lone: well I consulted on that but didn't work on it directly
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I don't even know if it's done or not
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: is it?
* [11:16] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Still a work in progress I believe
* [11:16] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: last night the half way merge was made public
* [11:17] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: they just deployed a bunch of xstreet L$ stuff
* [11:17] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: no, only the bit where you can transfer money on the web from one account to another
* [11:17] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: already?
* [11:17] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: that is, no more xstreet terminals, now you can move money in and out of xstreet from the web page
* [11:17] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: that's cool
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah; that's what I expected
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: and then soon you won't need to move L$ at all
* [11:18] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: where "soon" is a unit of time that is longer than you think
* [11:18] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
* [11:18] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: yeah, seems they are giving ppl that have a terminal some time to adjust and chnage it for one of the new xstreet mockup terminals instead (basically a advertising board)
* [11:18] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i deleted mine since Pink told me it cost them $5 USD a year to keep one freebie there ;)
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: huge!
* [11:19] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: needs to get around to make a freebie-only site. Right after he gets some sleep
* [11:19] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: and what is the cost to the land owner to have a terminal on their land ? ;)
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: what's the revenue stream for such a site?
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ads?
* [11:20] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Which: esteem
* [11:20] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: so maybe you could ask LL for rent,
* [11:20] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: glory!
* [11:20] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: it's a difficult thing to do, since LL does not really want to provide facilities for such a site.
* [11:20] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Like OpenID provider
* [11:21] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: seriously, same revenue stream for most of the stuff I do with SL. While I sell scripts, they're not even in the same ballpark income wise as stuff I normally get paid for. I just found I ship more if I charge a little...
* [11:21] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: huh?, you still have to seperatly log into something like 4 sections of the ll web page
* [11:21] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: I'd make one for fun and opensource scripts and machines, but without OpenID is a hassle
* [11:21] [[User:Melchizedek Blauvelt|Melchizedek Blauvelt]]: People with successful vids on Youtube make about a million USD a year on Youtube just because of a tiny ad yeah
* [11:21] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: nods to Latif
* [11:22] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: maybe LL could have google ads on their pages, lots of page views each day ;)
* [11:22] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: ...to pay for freebie hosting
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'm sure we have tons of evil ideas
* [11:22] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i know
* [11:23] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: (not implying that advertising is evil)
* [11:23] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: like guaranteed delivery from Xstreet while the rest of us have to cope with unreliable delivery
* [11:23] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: that's pure evil
* [11:23] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: Text ads was the most sucefful of them all. Popup and flash ads just don't work.
* [11:23] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Yeah, Which, how's guaranteed delivery for script item giving (or trackable failure, anyway)?
* [11:24] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: it's going well for Xstreet, the rest of us, not so well xD
* [11:24] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: well, we really appreciate lindens who stick out their neck out a bit for the resises, and their beleif in doing things properly
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'm not sure what happened with that; I think we were waiting for something to come about
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: That hasn't come about yet
* [11:24] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: If you could chase it up, would be greatly apprecaited. I know it came up on the SL scripters ML recently, too...
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'll try!
* [11:25] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: thanks!
* [11:25] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: hey Aimee!
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So, back to eventlte
* [11:25] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: heyhey aimee
* [11:25] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: just try to be less evil and give us with in world vendors the same ability as the one planned for xstreet
* [11:25] [[User:Aimee Linden|Aimee Linden]]: hi :)
* [11:25] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: if possible :)
* [11:26] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hey Aimee
* [11:26] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: hey aimee!
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: aimeeeeeee!
* [11:26] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: yes, indeed, what about the eventlet
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It's going to hit 1.0 soon!
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Probably not this week or next, but, "soon"
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: gotta write some codey code
* [11:27] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: gotta get it passing its tests on Windows
* [11:27] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: better database support
* [11:27] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: did you say where it fits into the sl jigsaw puzzle?
* [11:27] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: and then, BOOM
* [11:27] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It's a tool
* [11:27] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: how's the unit test coverage?
* [11:27] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Unit test coverage i at 80%
* [11:27] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: which ain't bad given how much platform-specific code is in there
* [11:27] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: that's awesome
* [11:28] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: That really is!
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I wrote about it here: [http://blog.eventlet.net/2010/02/27/0-9-6-in-the-house/#more-82]
* [11:28] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: platform, as in different unixish things? last time i cheched it didn't work on windows ata ll
* [11:29] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: when was that? The tip works pretty well on Windows now (wa a bug in the last release that broke it)
* [11:29] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i was trying to get pyogp working
* [11:30] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: could be that it has issues with python 2.6?
* [11:31] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: should work better on 2.6
* [11:31] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: installing greenlet is generally the hardest part
* [11:31] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: which I'm hoping that ambroff can help address with binary packages
* [11:32] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i'll give it another try then
* [11:33] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The project has progressed from "any problem you experience is probably a bug" to "any problem you experience is just as likely to be in your setup"
* [11:34] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: interesting. babbage seem to have done similar thing for mono assemblies to implement execution enviroinment for thousands of lsl scripts that run on a sim
* [11:35] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: co-routine-ish cooperative green threads
* [11:35] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah; though the mono thing does preemptive scheduling too
* [11:35] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It has to
* [11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: But yeay, lightweight flows of control are the ay to be
* [11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The lighter the better
* [11:36] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: as far as i understand he inserts yield bytecodes in compiled scripts to achive cooperative part of the microthreading architecture
* [11:37] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: kind of neat idea really
* [11:37] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Hoping as scripting improves, we'll see fewer scripts as we might get away from some of the weird stuff Babbage has had to do to get the number of threads copable...
* [11:37] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah
* [11:38] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Thanks Sai. Hi all present :-)
* [11:38] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hello Morg
* [11:39] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So one of the interesting things about Eventlet to me is the development of a community around it
* [11:39] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I just wrote a long-ass email to the company about what I learned from the experience
* [11:39] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: (and Eventlet's community isn't nearly as big as it could be, but it's way better than it used to be)
* [11:39] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: so are we likely to see asset uploads move to CAPs now that you don't need to start a whole python interpreter for each concurrent uplaod? :)
* [11:40] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: aren't they already caps?
* [11:40] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'm pretty sure we disabled non-cap uploads a long time ago
* [11:40] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, some are, but textures are not
* [11:40] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: UploadBakedTexture cap was disabled
* [11:40] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Baked textures
* [11:41] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: I think I remember Babbage saying he was working on cap-based texture uploads...
* [11:41] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: failure rate on baked texture uploads is quite high, i was wondering why the CAP got disabled and are tehre plans to re-eable it
* [11:41] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: somene mentioned that the problem was the need to start another python instance for each parallel upload
* [11:41] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I dunno; that seems like somethingto work on
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I think that the cgi thing was a performance problem for current uploads, not just a barrier to enabling new caps
* [11:42] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Latif; or the really fun time when my graphics card drivers ate my clothes, then uploaded mangled textured to the server. That was a fun couple of days before I got rebaked on a sane system....
* [11:43] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: the particular version of asset upload used for textures is horribly slow on high latecy connections, like from across the ocean xD
* [11:43] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: that's why i'd like to see return of upload caps for texures :)
* [11:45] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: totally; the udp codebase is probably not easy to maintain either
* [11:45] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: it's not too bad ;)
* [11:45] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So again back to eventlet; one of the things I observed about the process of becoming a strong development community was that it worked better as a conversation
* [11:45] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: it waits for ack before sending the next packet, for uploads, no sliding window, which kills rebakes
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: And that conversation was made better by me being able to make decisions
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Or someone
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I am sad whenever we discuss things here that I would like to change but cannot
* [11:46] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: benevolent dictator model works well for OS projects :)
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: IT's inevitable when the project is so large it can't fit into one person's head
* [11:47] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: likewise
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah, dictator isn't the important part; motivator is
* [11:47] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: (have to run AFK, sorry. If I'm not back before the end,good seeing you all, thanks for hosting Lindens)
* [11:47] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: it's why i stopped going to the sldev-which-became-snowglobe office hours
* [11:47] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: you do need someone to be able to cut the endless discussion and make a discussion
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: make a decision
* [11:48] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: descission*
* [11:48] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yeah
* [11:48] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah, totally; but on the other extreme you can have a dictator that brooks no discussion
* [11:48] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: that sucks too
* [11:48] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: we know those as well xD
* [11:49] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: also I was gratified to learn how eager people are to work on stuff like this; the goodness of the average human being is quite high in my opinion
* [11:49] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: The issue is more about the "benevolent" than about the "dictator". The "dictator" part can lead to forks instead of cooperation." We have a situation of that kind developing in Snowglobe, where Q is behaving as a non-benevolent dictator and refusing to cooperate with the opensource community. And that's already generated 1 or 2 calls for fork. Not good.
* [11:50] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: well I'm glad to see that at least some projects at LL manage to create a productive OSS community
* [11:51] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: There are a lot fewer restrictions on Eventlet than on the viewer, it makes it a lot easier for me
* [11:51] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The whole licensing/contribution agreement thing, for example
* [11:51] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: eventlet has wide applicability outside of SL as well
* [11:52] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yes it's much more sharply defined
* [11:52] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: The viewer has very wide applicability beyond SL too. Some of us have been working hard on interop here.
* [11:52] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: we have a few more things that fit that descripton, hopefully they will be available soon
* [11:53] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: well the viewer is an example on how not to do opensource. people have invested a lot of time in improving it just to find that none of the contributions made it back to the main viewer. you can crash viewer2 20 ways, all of which are long fixed in snowglobe
* [11:53] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Latif++
* [11:53] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It's not a good example of open *development* but it surely is open source
* [11:53] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Two different things
* [11:54] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: we must have different definitions of what a good opensurce project is :)
* [11:54] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: "throw over the wall" is the worst kind of open source
* [11:54] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Other projects to compare it to: MySQL, Chrome, WebKit
* [11:54] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: well, the main viewer has a very bizarre code inclusion path at the moment
* [11:55] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: I'm not sure what the plan is or if it's going to move back to the 1.x style of roll-ins; i am sorry to say i don't have much insight into the viewer at all
* [11:56] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah me neither
* [11:56] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: but generally it takes release cycles to include patches, and there plain haven't been any
* [11:56] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: We really really want to be more open about it
* [11:56] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: well a lot of people are sad to see LL backtrack on OSS community with closing the source of the main viewer, draconian tvp, etc
* [11:56] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Well I think the opensource community is trying to help you, while you keep trying to shoot yourselves in the foot. One day you'll find the target, and it'll hurt.
* [11:57] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: I think the direct correlation to release cycles has been lost in the discussion
* [11:57] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Not sure what you mean, Poppy
* [11:58] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: Well, how would you even know if a patch had been pulled in if there's no release to see it in?
* [11:58] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: clearly the babble loop patch was pulled in
* [11:58] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: it just took forever until everyone got to see it.
* [11:59] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: we used to have a public svn of the viewer source, synced daily, before "renewed emphasis on opensource" which in practice meant closing the source of the stock viewer
* [11:59] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Morgaine, I think I can go one-worse than "over the wall". I nearly threw the code to a project at someone today (old, unfunded project that's creating far more support work than can be done for free)
* [11:59] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: [http://svn.secondlife.com/trac/linden/browser/branches] <- it used to be quite clear what patch got pulled from the OSS contribs
* [12:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Not even over the wall, just "at" :)
* [12:00] [[User:Asterion Coen|Asterion Coen]]: hello ;)
* [12:00] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hi Ast
* [12:00] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: hey Asterion!
* [12:00] [[User:Asterion Coen|Asterion Coen]]: hey morgan, saij ;)
* [12:00] [[User:Asterion Coen|Asterion Coen]]: hey xu :)
* [12:00] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Which, yeah. In a "Enough! You do it. *shut down server* *wander off*" sense
* [12:01] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: Oh, while so many Lindens are here. :P Why do shapes not load often.... BUT load at once as soon as you changed group in the group window? Did some code go into the wrong part? ^^
* [12:01] [[User:Asterion Coen|Asterion Coen]]: what r doing some awg folks hidding behind the trees ? :)
* [12:01] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: latif, yeah, i'm not trying to defend that decision :) merely that it's hard to tell patch uptake if there are no releases.
* [12:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Aw dudes, I should go take a nap
* [12:01] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: I just don't uderstand what business advantage LL sees in going all closed source
* [12:02] [[User:Asterion Coen|Asterion Coen]]: which again ? :)
* [12:02] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Sleep well, Which :-)
* [12:02] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: get well soon Which!
* [12:02] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: Latif, well, it's open again
* [12:02] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: I'd argue that LL benefited greatly from people improving the viewer, creating cusom ones that created whole new markets, etc
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I don't want to start an argument but I think the idea that we are now closed source is based on a misunderstanding
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'll let poppy argue about it
* [12:02] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: so that's not exactly the question to ask
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: :)
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: take care, loved chatting with you all
* [12:03] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: :)

User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2010 Feb 18

2010-02-18T20:16:31Z

Which Linden: Created page with '''Thanks to Saijanai Kuhn for salvaging this transcript after I trashed my own copy of it.'' * [2010/02/18 11:06] Which Linden: hey there * [2010/02/18 11...'

''Thanks to Saijanai Kuhn for salvaging this transcript after I trashed my own copy of it.''

* [2010/02/18 11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hey there
* [2010/02/18 11:06] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hi Which. Welcome to Customer Complaints.
* [2010/02/18 11:06] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: LOL.
* [2010/02/18 11:07] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: hello!
* [2010/02/18 11:07] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Which, can we have your confirm that this sim -won't- retart during the hour? ;)
* [2010/02/18 11:07] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: restart*
* [2010/02/18 11:07] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: any idea whether Zero's sekrit project for 3-5 years hence will involved transparent upgrading of regions?
* [2010/02/18 11:08] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hiya Enk :-)
* [2010/02/18 11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: I have no idea what Zero's up to
* [2010/02/18 11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Sahkolihaa: uh, hopefully not!
* [2010/02/18 11:08] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Hehehe.
* [2010/02/18 11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I don't think there's really any way to know
* [2010/02/18 11:08] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: how can you have no idea what Zero is up to, when it impacts on your future?
* [2010/02/18 11:09] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: *TELL* him what he must do.
* [2010/02/18 11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: ha ha ha, I'm not the boss of him
* [2010/02/18 11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'm not the President of his work :)
* [2010/02/18 11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: About the rolling restarts, "please understand that this action is being taken to protect against in world content."
* [2010/02/18 11:09] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: The company is too small to have an impersonal infrastructure development division.
* [2010/02/18 11:10] [[User:Gambino Amsterdam|Gambino Amsterdam]]: hi
* [2010/02/18 11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: You gotta protect yourself from that inworld content!
* [2010/02/18 11:10] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: hi :)
* [2010/02/18 11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hi Dahlia
* [2010/02/18 11:10] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Which - the steps to produce the no-transfer exploit is on a pastebin website. After reading and testing it on prims, how in the world did LL miss it?
* [2010/02/18 11:10] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: read your Tao of Linden! You are the boss of him, in part!
* [2010/02/18 11:11] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Unless the Tao has been repealed.
* [2010/02/18 11:11] [[User:Questar Utu|Questar Utu]]: I'm actually wondering how anyone else missed it.. I havn't heard of that exploit being used until now.
* [2010/02/18 11:11] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: haha
* [2010/02/18 11:11] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: waves at Dahlia
* [2010/02/18 11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I don't think the Tao ever said anything about bossing each other around -- if anything it's quite individualistic
* [2010/02/18 11:11] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: waves back
* [2010/02/18 11:12] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Maybe the security issue is new, and thus no one messed around with it until recently?
* [2010/02/18 11:12] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Most likely.
* [2010/02/18 11:12] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: It's too simple to have been here for ages.
* [2010/02/18 11:12] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I was reminded of this article about the dyslexic spy who wrote codes
* [2010/02/18 11:12] [[User:Questar Utu|Questar Utu]]: Seems like it would have existed since the enabling of group object grabbing.
* [2010/02/18 11:12] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Took the cryptanalyst two weeks to discover that he spy was using ROT13
* [2010/02/18 11:12] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: o_o
* [2010/02/18 11:12] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: lol
* [2010/02/18 11:12] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Well the Tao can be summarized as "Everyone has a say". That means that you can have input on Zero's plans if you want, and he cannot reject them (unless they're flawed).
* [2010/02/18 11:13] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: i remember rot13
* [2010/02/18 11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: That was half of the message
* [2010/02/18 11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The other half was a bunch of numbers
* [2010/02/18 11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Which turned out to be coordinates in plaintext
* [2010/02/18 11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Like, really? Really. Plaintext.
* [2010/02/18 11:15] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: I remember ppl used to use rot13 in usenet a lot, for mildly inappropriate postings
* [2010/02/18 11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: [http://www.wired.com/magazine/2010/01/ff_hideandseek/all/1]
* [2010/02/18 11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: maybe I'm mischaraterizing it, see for yourself
* [2010/02/18 11:18] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So, Morgaine, I feel that you're misrepresenting the Tao. One of the tenets is certainly "work together"
* [2010/02/18 11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I certainly thing a robust conversation is an important part of that
* [2010/02/18 11:19] [[User:Questar Utu|Questar Utu]]: Blasted internet.
* [2010/02/18 11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I also think that a riddling of typos is an important part of that
* [2010/02/18 11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Making good choices is another, and being transparent is a third
* [2010/02/18 11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: To some degree these are restatements of each other
* [2010/02/18 11:20] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: we also try to walk in customers' shoes
* [2010/02/18 11:20] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: which is why you sometimes find yourself without your shoes
* [2010/02/18 11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Especially if they're sexy stilettos
* [2010/02/18 11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha ha
* [2010/02/18 11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: We also walk in your inventory. Sorry about that
* [2010/02/18 11:22] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: my shoes are mostly copyable :)
* [2010/02/18 11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It doesn't say "Walk in *a copy* of our Residents' shoes", now does it :)
* [2010/02/18 11:23] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: they're digital shoes, noboby should be able to tell the difference
* [2010/02/18 11:24] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: it's the principle!
* [2010/02/18 11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: We would know, in our hearts
* [2010/02/18 11:24] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: compliments Which on ridlingd of typso
* [2010/02/18 11:24] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: "It's the taste!", /me reads from this pack of tea
* [2010/02/18 11:26] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: what'd you guys talk about last week?
* [2010/02/18 11:26] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: i missed out. but i got forty lashings
* [2010/02/18 11:26] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Oh nice!
* [2010/02/18 11:26] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: grins
* [2010/02/18 11:26] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: I shoujld have used my claws also for that.
* [2010/02/18 11:27] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So yeah, I think the Tao is more about providing principles that ensure that when you make a decision, you're doing so with the best knowledge you can get, and with the lowest risk of tromping on the toes of others
* [2010/02/18 11:27] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: enkidu: we talked about http-in
* [2010/02/18 11:27] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I think we filed an enhancement request for it
* [2010/02/18 11:28] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: No. It's simply about people having a say in what will affect them. And nobody acting as elite.
* [2010/02/18 11:29] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: on the subject of http, does anyone know if there are any practical limits to how long a URL can be for a GET? (besides the limit in LSL)
* [2010/02/18 11:29] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: yeah
* [2010/02/18 11:30] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: i do
* [2010/02/18 11:30] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: There aren't any standardized limits, but Apache limits them to 8k
* [2010/02/18 11:30] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: MSIE also limits them
* [2010/02/18 11:30] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: 8k would be plenty :)
* [2010/02/18 11:30] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: A key element of the Tao (not written) is actually traceability, just like in engineering. There should be a process to ensure that issues raised are actually dealt with to satisfaction, not dismissed with a wave, not forgotten.
* [2010/02/18 11:30] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: IE does?
* [2010/02/18 11:30] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: not sure about IE8, but older versions limited to 2k
* [2010/02/18 11:30] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: hmmm
* [2010/02/18 11:30] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: well 3k would probably work too
* [2010/02/18 11:31] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: *2k
* [2010/02/18 11:31] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: ty :)
* [2010/02/18 11:31] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: No spec limit then?
* [2010/02/18 11:31] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: no spec limit
* [2010/02/18 11:31] [[User:ZenMondo Wormser|ZenMondo Wormser]]: what is the LSL limit?
* [2010/02/18 11:31] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: "If your url lasts for longer than 4k, consult a physician"
* [2010/02/18 11:31] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: but if your GET url is 8k, maybe you're doing something you shouldn't
* [2010/02/18 11:31] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: i think it's 2k, but I wasnt talking LSL
* [2010/02/18 11:32] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: For LSL I imagine that the limit is much shorter
* [2010/02/18 11:32] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Since the body limit is 2k
* [2010/02/18 11:32] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: I need to send a lot of small messages, and I'm having reliablily problems with POST
* [2010/02/18 11:32] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: bit.ly would of course love people to use unlimited URL lengths :P
* [2010/02/18 11:33] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: what are the symptoms?
* [2010/02/18 11:33] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: server ... something :/
* [2010/02/18 11:34] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: all I get is a few exception messages in an underlying library
* [2010/02/18 11:34] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: cant trace it
* [2010/02/18 11:34] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: are the requests made by a browser or something else?
* [2010/02/18 11:35] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: Im not sure, it's a unity3d plugin, I think it uses some of the browser's http stack
* [2010/02/18 11:35] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: but I think the errors are server side
* [2010/02/18 11:36] [[User:Jonathan Yap|Jonathan Yap]]: Can you employ a network sniffer to watch packets?
* [2010/02/18 11:36] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: yep could do that
* [2010/02/18 11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Wireshark FTGW
* [2010/02/18 11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: not sure what that G is doing in there
* [2010/02/18 11:36] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: lol
* [2010/02/18 11:37] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: g is for grand
* [2010/02/18 11:37] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So hey, is anyone paying attention to the python world? Did you know that Eventlet is approaching 1.0?
* [2010/02/18 11:37] [[User:Questar Utu|Questar Utu]]: k is for kilo, which referrs to 1000 as well. :p
* [2010/02/18 11:37] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: i did!
* [2010/02/18 11:37] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: not lately, anything new?
* [2010/02/18 11:38] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: The only thing I have to monitor regarding Python is the install on my Linux system. xP
* [2010/02/18 11:38] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: does that mean that Eventlet will finally work relaibly on Windows?
* [2010/02/18 11:38] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Enus was complaining about it
* [2010/02/18 11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: he was??? I added an entire module to address that for him?
* [2010/02/18 11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: !
* [2010/02/18 11:39] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Oh, well maybe that fixed it, hehe :-)
* [2010/02/18 11:39] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: But yeah, uh, windows compatibility is something that is still being worked on
* [2010/02/18 11:39] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It would help if someone who actually used Windows could provide development help
* [2010/02/18 11:39] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: As it is I have to fire up a VM
* [2010/02/18 11:39] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Nobody uses Windows, so that's a long shot
* [2010/02/18 11:39] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: ducks
* [2010/02/18 11:39] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Questar does but he's not into that type of coding. :p
* [2010/02/18 11:40] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Or well, Python in general.
* [2010/02/18 11:40] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: i don't have windows either
* [2010/02/18 11:40] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: not at home, anyway
* [2010/02/18 11:40] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Enk++ !!!
* [2010/02/18 11:40] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Wouldn't want the wife to see that
* [2010/02/18 11:40] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: hehe, nice to hear another Linden who doesn't use Windows.
* [2010/02/18 11:40] [[User:Questar Utu|Questar Utu]]: I could be, but I just don't have the means to learn it.
* [2010/02/18 11:40] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: I use windows and I use python but I dont know anything about eventlet
* [2010/02/18 11:41] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: (maybe I should be ducking?) lol
* [2010/02/18 11:42] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: prepares to teleport to safely...
* [2010/02/18 11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It's a networking/greenthreading library
* [2010/02/18 11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: For highly-scalable web applications
* [2010/02/18 11:42] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: kewl
* [2010/02/18 11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Which are probably not as scalable on Windows
* [2010/02/18 11:43] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: would it work with something like panda3d? I think they implement their own greenish threads
* [2010/02/18 11:43] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: pwn!
* [2010/02/18 11:44] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: to sync them with the frame loop or something
* [2010/02/18 11:45] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I don't know anything about panda3d
* [2010/02/18 11:46] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: it's a open source game engine with python scripting. Pretty nice actually
* [2010/02/18 11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: [http://www.panda3d.org/wiki/index.php/Threading]
* [2010/02/18 11:46] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Comes from Disney, by some miracle they open-sourced it.
* [2010/02/18 11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: looks like they just have their own implementation of OS threads
* [2010/02/18 11:47] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: [http://vimeo.com/6812213]
* [2010/02/18 11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: whoa so panda's kind of an OGRE competitor?
* [2010/02/18 11:48] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: competitor? hmmm
* [2010/02/18 11:48] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: I think it's more feature rich than ogre
* [2010/02/18 11:48] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: and easier to use
* [2010/02/18 11:49] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: probably not as flexible with materials as ogre tho
* [2010/02/18 11:51] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Lots of options for the 3D programmer who knows Python, though
* [2010/02/18 11:52] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: ya I found panda a lot easier to get running than pyogre
* [2010/02/18 11:52] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Cool! Glad to see there's a diverse set of options
* [2010/02/18 11:53] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: But back to eventlet
* [2010/02/18 11:53] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It uses greenthreads, which have a similar API to regular threads, but cooperatively yield
* [2010/02/18 11:53] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So there are fewer race conditions
* [2010/02/18 11:53] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: And More control
* [2010/02/18 11:54] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: But it's best for I/O intensive applications because they are all in the same process
* [2010/02/18 11:54] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: They are coroutines
* [2010/02/18 11:54] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: ys iy'd nice to not have to worry about locking
* [2010/02/18 11:54] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah exactly
* [2010/02/18 11:54] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: *ya it's
* [2010/02/18 11:55] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: See now you're getting into the spirit of this typos thing!
* [2010/02/18 11:55] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: Im good at it :D
* [2010/02/18 11:55] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: I cant see either, so I read typos even if they arent there ;)
* [2010/02/18 11:56] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: *see to well
* [2010/02/18 11:56] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'm going to be at Pycon for the next week; I may not be able to attend next week's OH
* [2010/02/18 11:56] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: where's pycon?
* [2010/02/18 11:57] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Atlanta
* [2010/02/18 11:57] [[User:Second Life|Second Life]]: Your region will restart in 5 minutes and 0 seconds for maintenance.
* [2010/02/18 11:57] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Threads with shared state are a disaster, no doubt about that. But threads without shared state (ie. system processes) don't have the same horrific concurrency problems, so they should be used wherever possible.
* [2010/02/18 11:57] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Eeep.
* [2010/02/18 11:57] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha! region restart!
* [2010/02/18 11:57] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Eeep
* [2010/02/18 11:57] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: good timing
* [2010/02/18 11:57] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: we're doomed!
* [2010/02/18 11:57] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Just at the end, heh.
* [2010/02/18 11:57] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Thanks to my contacts on the inside
* [2010/02/18 11:57] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: i bet it's zero
* [2010/02/18 11:57] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: sorry I hogged the meeting, but time to tp away. Bye all :)
* [2010/02/18 11:58] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It's handy if you're on an awkward date. "Oh sorry, region restarting! Oh weird I couldn't TP to your location afterward! Oh well IRL LOL!"
* [2010/02/18 11:58] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Question for Which/Enki: is Zero working on transparent region upgrading in his 3-5 year plan? If not ... remember the Tao, and have your say.
* [2010/02/18 11:58] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: lol
* [2010/02/18 11:58] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: I'll have to look into that
* [2010/02/18 11:58] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: (Rhetorical)
* [2010/02/18 11:59] [[User:Second Life|Second Life]]: Your region will restart in 3 minutes and 0 seconds for maintenance.
* [2010/02/18 11:59] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Time to poof.
* [2010/02/18 11:59] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Thanks for having us, Which & Enkidu.
* [2010/02/18 11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Thanks for stopping by!
* [2010/02/18 11:59] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: bye everyone!
* [2010/02/18 11:59] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Gotta love doubleclick TP :P
* [2010/02/18 11:59] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: See you Which / Enki :-)
* [2010/02/18 12:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Catch ya laters!

Eventlet

2010-02-13T05:53:24Z

Which Linden: /* Eventlet */

= [http://eventlet.net Eventlet] =

Eventlet is a networking library written in Python. It achieves high scalability and concurrency by using [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-blocking_IO#Select.28.2Fpoll.29_loop non-blocking io] while at the same time retaining high programmer usability by using [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coroutine coroutines] to make the non-blocking io operations appear blocking at the source code level.

* [http://blog.eventlet.net/ Blog]
* [http://eventlet.net/doc/ Documentation]
* [https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/eventletdev/ Mailing List Archives]
* [http://eventlet.net/hudson/ Automated Builds]
* [http://bitbucket.org/which_linden/eventlet/issues/new/ Bug Report Form]
* [irc://chat.freenode.net/#eventlet irc channel]

Linden Lab open-sourced Eventlet [http://blogs.secondlife.com/community/features/blog/2007/08/25/more-open-source-our-web-services-libraries in 2007], and it's been under continuous development since. Several applications have been built on top of Eventlet, such as [http://pypi.python.org/pypi/Spawning/ Spawning] and [http://pypi.python.org/pypi/proxylet/ Proxylet].

== Other resources ==
[http://soundfarmer.com/content/slides/coroutines-nonblocking-io-eventlet-spawning/coros,%20nonblocking%20i:o,%20eventlet,%20spawning.pdf Article talks about coros, eventlet and spawning]

Eventlet

2010-02-13T05:52:43Z

Which Linden: /* Eventlet */

= [http://eventlet.net Eventlet] =

Eventlet is a networking library written in Python. It achieves high scalability and concurrency by using [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-blocking_IO#Select.28.2Fpoll.29_loop non-blocking io] while at the same time retaining high programmer usability by using [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coroutine coroutines] to make the non-blocking io operations appear blocking at the source code level.

* [http://blog.eventlet.net/ Blog]
* [http://eventlet.net/doc/ Documentation]
* [https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/eventletdev/ Mailing List Archives]
* [http://eventlet.net/hudson/ Automated Builds]
* [http://bitbucket.org/which_linden/eventlet/issues/new/ Bug Report Form]
* [irc://chat.freenode.net/#eventlet irc channel]

Linden Lab open-sourced Eventlet [https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/features/blog/2007/08/25/more-open-source-our-web-services-libraries in 2007], and it's been under continuous development since. Several applications have been built on top of Eventlet, such as [http://pypi.python.org/pypi/Spawning/ Spawning] and [http://pypi.python.org/pypi/proxylet/ Proxylet].

== Other resources ==
[http://soundfarmer.com/content/slides/coroutines-nonblocking-io-eventlet-spawning/coros,%20nonblocking%20i:o,%20eventlet,%20spawning.pdf Article talks about coros, eventlet and spawning]

Eventlet

2010-02-13T05:47:23Z

Which Linden: Adding more links

= [http://eventlet.net Eventlet] =

Eventlet is a networking library written in Python. It achieves high scalability and concurrency by using [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-blocking_IO#Select.28.2Fpoll.29_loop non-blocking io] while at the same time retaining high programmer usability by using [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coroutine coroutines] to make the non-blocking io operations appear blocking at the source code level.

* [http://blog.eventlet.net/ Blog]
* [http://eventlet.net/doc/ Documentation]
* [https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/eventletdev/ Mailing List Archives]
* [http://eventlet.net/hudson/ Automated Builds]
* [http://bitbucket.org/which_linden/eventlet/issues/new/ Bug Report Form]
* [irc://chat.freenode.net/#eventlet irc channel]

== Other resources ==
[http://soundfarmer.com/content/slides/coroutines-nonblocking-io-eventlet-spawning/coros,%20nonblocking%20i:o,%20eventlet,%20spawning.pdf Article talks about coros, eventlet and spawning]

User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2010 Feb 11

2010-02-11T20:06:46Z

Which Linden: Created page with '* [11:07] Sebastean Steamweaver: And he appears! * [11:07] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Which :-) * [11:07] [[User:Sebastean St...'

* [11:07] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: And he appears!
* [11:07] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hiya Which :-)
* [11:07] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: wonders if Which detected the plant fertlizer.
* [11:07] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: o_o
* [11:08] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Which will be so happy when we get avatar transparency.
* [11:08] [[User:Questar Utu|Questar Utu]]: Wouldn't plant fetilizer be sort of like cat nip is to cats?
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hiya
* [11:08] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: I would guess so, yes.
* [11:08] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: hi
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah I will Sebastean!
* [11:10] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: Which, you're looking very "green"
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: that's right, let it not be said that this isn't a green-friendly company
* [11:10] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: chuckles.
* [11:11] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: nor... that content matters ;)
* [11:11] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: *context* :)
* [11:12] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ah...sorry, I'm a bit distracted today
* [11:12] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: No worries Which.
* [11:12] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: What's the distraction?
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: we're moving our development stations to a different colo, so I'm scrambling to get to a good new host and copy all my files over
* [11:13] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Well, thanks for showing up today all the same :) We appreciate the time.
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: faster development!
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: man, I love moore's law
* [11:14] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Hehe
* [11:14] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: Are you physically moving people, also?
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: no
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: well, maybe, depends on how much you're offering me to.... :-P
* [11:15] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: Moore's law is great, if you are buying machines, in the future. It bites you when you buy one, though...
* [11:15] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Hehe
* [11:15] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: I...don't recall seeing this OH before: [11:15
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah moore's law is like deflation
* [11:15] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Yoz Linden?
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oh that's cool; yoz is awesome
* [11:15] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: What's a Yoz?
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yoz is unique
* [11:16] [[User:Melchizedek Blauvelt|Melchizedek Blauvelt]]: Started last week Sah, it'sabout AU etc
* [11:16] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: That would be Unique Linden
* [11:16] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Ah. I skipped most of last weeks OHs due to college work.
* [11:16] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Which, are you familiar at all with dealing with in-world assets?
* [11:17] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: Which - I'm curious about what LL is doing about virtualization... for sims?
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: JB: well, it's a complex project
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I feel that if we were to do that it might just be easier to virtualize the entire OS
* [11:18] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Sebastean: not sure what you mean by "dealing with"
* [11:18] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: IT's more in line with Andrew's hours, I'll admit, but I just had a quick question about raycasting. If that's outside your line of work, that's fine.
* [11:19] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: i.e. having a script define a raycast offset, and finding the key of the first object that intersects with it, if any.
* [11:19] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: Sebastean - would you use a phantom temp object and check collisions?
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Ah! Definitely not my speed, I'm afraid
* [11:20] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: No problem Which :)
* [11:20] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: JB - I'd like to avoid using a temp object if at all possible.
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'm more of a web services/UI guy
* [11:20] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: Which... http-in fall into your area?
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: JB: that's a bit closer, I know some people
* [11:21] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: How has the deployment of http-in affected the traffic in/out of SL, with the Web? Is it as you'd expected?
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: "There's this guy I met in prison, he knows a lot of people who do http-in jobs."
* [11:22] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: eek!
* [11:22] [[User:Melchizedek Blauvelt|Melchizedek Blauvelt]]: lol
* [11:22] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: lol
* [11:22] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: I look terrible in stripes... :(
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: That's a great question, and I don't know the answer to it. I believe that http-in hasn't changed our traffic dramatically.
* [11:23] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: uptake has been slow
* [11:23] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Which was expected
* [11:23] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: At previous office hours, people have complained about how the interface is inconvenient enough that they
* [11:23] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: we're using http-in for Relay For Life this year
* [11:23] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: There are a lot of systems I intend to implement HTTP-IN on, but sometimes it's a matter of time to switch it over from the old email systems.
* [11:23] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: would prefer to use the old email or xml-rpc, even though those are busted in various ways
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah, it's totally a matter of the devil you know
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Also, it's difficult to update scripts
* [11:24] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: we did a scaleability test... rezzed 1800 kiosks in a sim, and they all were able to handle traffic very quickly... nice
* [11:25] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: I think http_in is the best thing since sliced bread. But sometimes if you don't have something completely ready, you're more inclined to use a working existing system.
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Nice
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: JB: that's actually awesome, you should, like, give seminars on that
* [11:25] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: I will admit that I'd like the limits for http_in to be more like llEmail as far as character counts.
* [11:27] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: ZenMondo Wormser did the baseline coding of http-in ... did a nice job.
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: size of bodies limited to 2k bytes....that is pretty small
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: that's like a packet!
* [11:29] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: being able to say what offset you wanted to retrieve, or a "get more/next" callback would be nice...
* [11:30] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: I was hoping at some point they might consider expanding that a bit. It can be a bit of a hassle to separate data over to messages, instead of sending things "all at once." There are a few cases I've encountered where I've had to do that.
* [11:31] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah; it seems like a good design practice to start off with low limits to avoid crushing everything, but to slowly raise the limits as usage dictates
* [11:31] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: I've had to rely on some off-world parsing, to pull out the pieces/parts I want in-world
* [11:34] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: to some degree, that's desired; I believe part of the point was the recognition that inworld scripts are never going to be as powerful as externally-hosted scripts
* [11:34] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: That may change with Babbage's "Big Scripts" project.
* [11:35] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: so much for my plans to sell Apache WebServer prims :(
* [11:35] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah, maybe; in which case maybe the limit would be raised for big scripts
* [11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: how would you feel about trading off the 64 queued requests for larger body sizes? I.e. 4k body sizes but only 32 of them queued at a time?
* [11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: (just hypotehtically)
* [11:36] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Well personally, I don't use nearly 32 as it is.
* [11:36] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: I guess it depends on the traffic one uses.
* [11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I guess it would be hard to tell how much of that you use
* [11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Or is there a way to directly inspect the number of queued requests?
* [11:36] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: is there a way to know?
* [11:37] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Hmm
* [11:37] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Good point, Iwas just going by requests recieved in X period of time.
* [11:37] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: And that gives an average, not peak values.
* [11:37] [[User:Jonathan Yap|Jonathan Yap]]: Maybe it could be user-settable; I had a need for more queued requests for a project but all very small packet-wise
* [11:38] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: "I've never dropped a packet.... that I know of" - UDP
* [11:39] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: You could time your request handler to see how long it takes to process one request, then use that to determine an rps rate for handling, and if you see yourself at that rate for N requests, you can make some assumptions about how many of those N requests were buffered
* [11:40] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: that's a good idea... I like it :)
* [11:40] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Doesn't llEmail have a wya to get queued emails? Haven't looked at email functions in a while.
* [11:40] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: I think you just get an indicator if there is "more"
* [11:41] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: email(string time, string address, string subj, string message, integer num_left)
* [11:41] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: The last one gives the number of emails left.
* [11:41] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hm that's nice
* [11:41] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: cool...
* [11:41] [[User:Jonathan Yap|Jonathan Yap]]: You use llGetNextEmail on a timer event to pick up messages
* [11:42] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Maybe since versioning is coming out, a similar parameter could be added to http_in
* [11:44] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Maybe!
* [11:44] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: releases a cricket in Which's pot.
* [11:45] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I just put that bug in the ear of some developers
* [11:45] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Hehe, awesome :)
* [11:45] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: g'day all
* [11:45] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Hey there Saij
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hi Sai!
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: long time no see
* [11:46] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: been a strange past few months
* [11:46] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: Hi Sai :)
* [11:46] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: BUT, one happy thing: just got my squeak to squeak shared memory IPC working with OpenGL
* [11:46] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: waves at Sai
* [11:47] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Cool Sai!
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: your squake?
* [11:47] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: What was the solution?
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: squeak
* [11:47] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: so I can draw using OpenGL, copy to a shared memory buffer, and read it in the next instance
* [11:47] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: solution was me using wrong variables in opengl call, as expected
* [11:48] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: The solution was using wrong variables, or was that the problem?
* [11:48] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: picky, picky ;)
* [11:48] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: I WAS using the wrong parameters
* [11:48] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Ahh
* [11:48] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Well you never know JB, sometimes you can get things to work using "wrong" things ;)
* [11:48] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: next milestone: share buffer with SL plugin and draw from squeak to SL plugin texture
* [11:49] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: *cough*PosJump*cough*
* [11:49] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: nods... I found a bug the other day... the code "appeared" to be working, and it was too bugs interacting, to cause "correctness" :(
* [11:49] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: SysV shared memory?
* [11:50] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: more or less. FreeBSD shared memory
* [11:50] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: whichis what the plugin uses for Mac OS X IIRC
* [11:50] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: shmget shmat etc
* [11:51] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: What's the end goal, Sai? squeak runtime for writing sl viewer plugins?
* [11:51] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: yeah, basically. The ultimate version would be croquet on a prim
* [11:52] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: so could have telepresence between cobalt and SL
* [11:53] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: That's hella ambitous, man
* [11:53] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: this also solves an issue they've had with cobalt where they couldn't easily use VNC with cobalt because it was drawing opengl to the screen, which VNC normally won't pick up
* [11:54] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: but I THINK its possible to tell VNC to use a buffer instead
* [11:54] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hey guys;unrelated; if someone makes a JIRA for inspecting the amount of pending http-in requests, I'll link it to https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-3077
* [11:54] [[User:JIRA-helper: [#MISC-3077|JIRA-helper: [#MISC-3077]]:
* [11:54] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: so I sorta solved a Cobalt project problem at the same time
* [11:54] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: I'll do that now Which :)
* [11:54] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: double brownie points
* [11:54] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: opens a JIRA pag.
* [11:55] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: thanks Sebastean
* [11:56] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Sai: this cobalt? [http://www.duke.edu/~julian/Cobalt/Home.html]
* [11:57] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: correct. Croquet Hax and Tapple Gao in Groupies are part of that project
* [11:58] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: so hopefully Julian will stop being quite so condenscending when I'm in the team meetings on skype :-)
* [11:59] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: but I'm happy. Been hitting my head against this wall for a very long time
* [11:59] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: feels so goooood
* [11:59] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: I'm glad you got it figured out, Sai.
* [11:59] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: What did you do to discover the problem?
* [12:00] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: asked in the squeak-dev mailing list
* [12:00] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: nice
* [12:00] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: I had parameter issues is all (which is what I expected)
* [12:00] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: OpenGL newb
* [12:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Everyone's an OpenGL newb at heart
* [12:01] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: I was at a conference not long ago where they had "Human Search Engine" sessions. You would stand up to the microphone, ask your question, and those who knew how to contribute to the answer would meet you aside.
* [12:01] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: well, once I understand the squeak FFI a little better
* [12:01] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: [http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-5372]
* [12:01] [[User:JIRA-helper: [#SVC-5372|JIRA-helper: [#SVC-5372]]:
* [12:02] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: I won't be so newb. You can use most opengl calls in squeak the same way you can any other smalltalk. So I can play with opengl interactively, mod something and do it again
* [12:02] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: that's a main reason for writing the SL plugin tester in squeak.
* [12:03] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: (Does that seem like an accurate description of t he proposal?)
* [12:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Linking, Sebastean
* [12:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: OK I should run! Thanks all for a great discussion
* [12:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I may not be here next week due to Pycon
* [12:05] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: thanks, Which
* [12:05] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Thanks for the office hours which :)
* [12:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Haven't checked the schedule yet
* [12:05] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: Good luck with all the "moving"
* [12:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Heh thanks! I'm firing up my rsync now
* [12:05] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: See you Which.
* [12:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Take care
* [12:05] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: take care which

User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2010 Feb 4

2010-02-05T19:21:45Z

Which Linden: Explain.

''Enkidu hosted my office hours this week because I was unexpectedly sick. Here is a transmission that we found wedged into the knothole of a tree near the last coordinates transmitted by the starship's emergency beacon.''

''The wikifier failed, not really sure why, too lazy to figure it out. Still legible.''
* [11:03 ] Xugu Madison: Enkidu!
* [11:03 ] Enkidu Linden: hello!
* [11:04 ] Xugu Madison: How are you doing?
* [11:04 ] Les Linden: hey enkidu -- RDW OH?
* [11:04 ] Enkidu Linden: i'm well
* [11:04 ] Enkidu Linden: yeah, les
* [11:04 ] Les Linden: word... i'll ping
* [11:04 ] Enkidu Linden: now we just need which
* [11:04 ] Tillie Ariantho: Hello! :)
* [11:04 ] Xugu Madison: Xugu Madison points Enkidu at the sign "He's ill :("
* [11:05 ] Les Linden: ahhhh
* [11:05 ] Les Linden: indeed
* [11:05 ] Les Linden: poor which
* [11:05 ] Xugu Madison: Well, wow, we've got three Lindens. Les,
haven't met you before, what do you do at the lab?
* [11:06 ] Enkidu Linden: oh, it was behind me
* [11:06 ] Les Linden: hi xugu - i'm a program mgr in global tech!
* [11:06 ] Tillie Ariantho: Nothing to discuss without Which? ^^
* [11:06 ] Les Linden: not on my side... actually frees me up for
another mtg. see you guys!!!
* [11:06 ] Enkidu Linden: bye les
* [11:06 ] Tillie Ariantho: What' global tech? Like... uh... loading
windlight settings? ,D VWR-16769
* [11:06 ] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-16769
* [#VWR-16769] Windlight: Settings get loaded at startup... all of them
* [11:06 ] Xugu Madison: Oh dear. See you Les!
* [11:07] Xugu Madison: Enkidu, how are you settling into the lab?
* [11:07] Sasy Scarborough: hi all
* [11:07] Tillie Ariantho: Hello Sasy. :)
* [11:07 ] Enkidu Linden: very well. it's been over a year now
* [11:07 ] Tillie Ariantho: Which is ill, but we have Enkidu here. =)
* [11:08 ] Mojito Sorbet: Could also do "Which is on first" jokes
* [11:08 ] Enkidu Linden: yeah, i'm here! we don't need that guy
* [11:08 ] Tillie Ariantho: So what are you working on usually, Enkidu?
Dont say 'secret projects' now. :P
* [11:09 ] Enkidu Linden: well, i work in the web group
* [11:09 ] Xugu Madison: Web design, applications, services, some
combination of all, or something else?
* [11:09 ] Tillie Ariantho: Ah =)
* [11:10 ] Tillie Ariantho: So xStreet, migration of the forums, blog,
profiles, all that?
* [11:10 ] Enkidu Linden: actually
* [11:10 ] Tillie Ariantho: Hello Aimee, bye Aimee. :P
* [11:10 ] Enkidu Linden: none of that at all
* [11:10 ] Aimee Linden: lol
* [11:10 ] Tillie Ariantho: Enkidu: ah.
* [11:11 ] Enkidu Linden: over the past year most of my work has been on secondlife.com
* [11:11 ] Tillie Ariantho: Ah darn chatrange thingy...
* [11:11 ] Tillie Ariantho: Enikdu: so you did the fully animated
homepage with all the flash bits? ^^
* [11:11 ] Aimee Linden: Aimee Linden grins, I'm winding it up
* [11:11 ] Sasy Scarborough: the new page is pretty, about becoming a premmy
* [11:11 ] Enkidu Linden: haha
* [11:11 ] Enkidu Linden: no i'm afraid i had nothing to do with that either
* [11:12 ] Tillie Ariantho: ugh. ^^
* [11:12 ] Enkidu Linden: my projects tend to be a little farther back
* [11:12 ] Tillie Ariantho: so you configure the apache to still work
even when Evil Linden puts up flash bits? :P
* [11:12 ] Sasy Scarborough: Sasy Scarborough still wonders what it
means that they will have special build access on mainland
* [11:12 ] Xugu Madison: Don't suppose you're at all involved with the
single sign-on stuff Enkidu?
* [11:12 ] Enkidu Linden: for example, a few months ago which and i worked
together to improve the transactions history page
* [11:13 ] Tillie Ariantho: ah =)
* [11:13 ] Tillie Ariantho: Okay, that part of the web. :)
* [11:13 ] Xugu Madison: Love the new transaction history page
* [11:13 ] Mojito Sorbet: Reducing the unneeded white space between enties?
* [11:13 ] Aimee Linden: I don't think Lindens are allowed to Flash, at
least not in a PG area
* [11:13 ] Xugu Madison: Still needs to be 3 months, not 1, but what can you do..
* [11:13 ] Enkidu Linden: thanks. i can do very little about that
* [11:13 ] Xugu Madison: Flash? Wait, what?
* [11:13 ] Enkidu Linden: although i do agree
* [11:13 ] Tillie Ariantho: So bringing the backend to the front stuff. ^^
* [11:14 ] Xugu Madison: Enkidu, tell them I'll go premium if they make
it three months
* [11:14 ] Tillie Ariantho: Xugu: the main page with all the animated
boxes some time ago I meant. ,)
* [11:14 ] Enkidu Linden: haha, awesome
* [11:14 ] Enkidu Linden: i will pass that along
* [11:14 ] Saijanai Kuhn: tremenouds lag can't even type let me relog
* [11:14 ] Sasy Scarborough: paying for a year is the best way to go :)
they pay you in the end
* [11:15 ] Xugu Madison: I'll admit, I can't see them going "Xugu will
go premium? Make it so!", but I live in hope :)
* [11:15 ] Tillie Ariantho: haha
* [11:15 ] Enkidu Linden: i don't mind saying that
* [11:16 ] Xugu Madison: Will it help, though? :)
* [11:16 ] Xugu Madison: but go for it, it'll do my ego good
* [11:16 ] Enkidu Linden: "get your hardhats, people! it's go time!"
* [11:16 ] Xugu Madison: :-D
* [11:16 ] Xugu Madison: Reminded randomly... anyone heard more about
the creative conference LL are arranging? This question goes to the
Lindens too
* [11:16 ] Xugu Madison: ...the Linden, Aimee fled :(
* [11:16 ] Mojito Sorbet: Premium accounts get special no-lag acees; you
didnt know that?
* [11:17 ] Enkidu Linden: i don't know anything about it, unfortunately
* [11:17 ] Aimee Linden: was just relogging :)
* [11:17 ] Xugu Madison: Yay, Aimee back!
* [11:17 ] Sasy Scarborough: Sasy Scarborough thinks her premmy account
is broken then :P
* [11:17 ] Sasy Scarborough: welcome back Aimee
* [11:18 ] Tillie Ariantho: Mojito: I have 2 premiums, and I dont feel
like I am especially unlagged. :P
* [11:18 ] Xugu Madison: Sasy, it's a toggle. I think it's
ctrl-alt-opt-shift-a while hopping on your left foot...
* [11:18 ] Sasy Scarborough: lol
* [11:18 ] Enkidu Linden: so, did you guys want to talk about web stuff?
* [11:18 ] Sasy Scarborough: make it a gesture :P
* [11:18 ] Xugu Madison: Enkidu, sure!
* [11:19 ] Xugu Madison: Not.. entirely sure where I'd start, but web is good!
* [11:19 ] Mojito Sorbet: You must have missed the email where they tell
you the secret access URL...
* [11:19 ] Saijanai Kuhn: this is still laggy, even for which's place
* [11:19 ] Tillie Ariantho: Sure, why not talk about web stuff. :)
* [11:20 ] Xugu Madison: Done anything excitingly webby this week Enkidu?
* [11:20 ] Xugu Madison: Anything you can tease us by not being able to
tell us? :)
* [11:20 ] Enkidu Linden: totally!
* [11:20 ] Enkidu Linden: i love teasing you guys
* [11:20 ] Tillie Ariantho: :D
* [11:21 ] Sasy Scarborough: avatars united is webby i think are you
involved in the behind the scenes of that too ?
* [11:21 ] Enkidu Linden: lots of stuff going on in our group
* [11:21 ] Enkidu Linden: yes, AU is ours now
* [11:21 ] Sasy Scarborough: I like it :)
* [11:21 ] Sasy Scarborough: Sasy Scarborough hates Plurk loves AU
* [11:21 ] Enkidu Linden: i'll be very loosely involved
* [11:22 ] Xugu Madison: Plurk always seemed like a giant heap of
Javascript about to topple on someone at a moment's notice
* [11:22 ] Enkidu Linden: i got to meet several of the former enemy unknown staff,
now lindens, and they seem really great
* [11:22 ] Sasy Scarborough: is it going to be widget heavy so you can
shout in one network and have it yell in all ?
* [11:22 ] Aimee Linden: I like the time line idea with plurk though
* [11:22 ] Tillie Ariantho: AU is nice and clean, only it needs a bit of
useful stuff now. :)
* [11:23 ] Sasy Scarborough: yes its a great format Aimee just
unfortunatly doesnt stop people being trolls or incredibly cruel to
one another
* [11:23 ] Mojito Sorbet: Watch out for scalability though.
* [11:23 ] Tillie Ariantho: Just connecting to everyone and grouping
with everyone is just a start for bigger things.
* [11:24 ] Enkidu Linden: speaking of javascript, jquery 1.4 is out
* [11:25 ] Tillie Ariantho: Yah, I've seen. Any nice new stuff in there? ^^
* [11:25 ] Enkidu Linden: yeah, focus on performance
* [11:26 ] Enkidu Linden: honestly, the performance stuff is the whole cake for me
* [11:26 ] Xugu Madison: We're finally accepting that we're going to
have to use Javascript in our main app. It's built like a tank. Big,
ugly, runs over everything
* [11:26 ] Enkidu Linden: i'm really excited to see the impact upgrading has on
our web properties' user experience
* [11:27 ] Xugu Madison: Xugu Madison nods "Latency is a nightmare"
* [11:27 ] Xugu Madison: (in general terms, I mean, not SL-specific)
* [11:28 ] Enkidu Linden: not that we don't have room to improve there
* [11:28 ] Xugu Madison: It feels a bit like you're trying to do too
much on some pages. I don't know... again, bit of a web luddite, so
might be biased
* [11:29 ] Enkidu Linden: what pages are you thinking of?
* [11:29 ] Tillie Ariantho: Xugu, today everyone tries to do a lot on
the web front... with Web 2.0 features on that many pages some might
just feel as if they lose the race. ^^
* [11:30 ] Sasy Scarborough: Sasy Scarborough has to dash , have fun all
* [11:30 ] Tillie Ariantho: So trying to add shiny web2.0 to get to the
front row again, but forgetting their actual content. ^^
* [11:30 ] Enkidu Linden: bye, sasy
* [11:30 ] Mojito Sorbet: I was just reading a paper titled something
like "Social networking killed the database"
* [11:31 ] Mojito Sorbet: It was about how tradional LAMP ways of
looking the problems, and SQL, could never scale up to what is needed
for social networking
* [11:31 ] Enkidu Linden: indeed
* [11:31 ] Tillie Ariantho: Some websites just feel like a web2.0
showcase... inplace-edit, drag'n'drop, animated stuff... but nothing
useful behind it. ^^
* [11:31 ] Tillie Ariantho: I am not talking about the SL pages now.
* [11:32 ] Mojito Sorbet: And more AJAX than is really needed.
* [11:32 ] Xugu Madison: Mojito, which parts wouldn't scale?
* [11:32 ] Mojito Sorbet: The database itself, mostly. Wait, I look up the URL
* [11:32 ] Enkidu Linden: yeah, database becomes a huge bottleneck
* [11:33 ] Tillie Ariantho: How does google do it with their million servers...?
* [11:33 ] Mojito Sorbet:
http://www.roadtofailure.com/2009/06/19/social-media-kills-the-rdbms/
* [11:33 ] Enkidu Linden: interestingly, we ran into this relatively early in our
history (as i understand it), not because of social networking, but
because running a virtual world is also db-expensive
* [11:33 ] Mojito Sorbet: Google does NOT use relational databases, for one thing
* [11:34 ] Xugu Madison: Is it a case of too much data, or just patterns
not well suited to relational databases?
* [11:34 ] Mojito Sorbet: Both
* [11:34 ] Enkidu Linden: yeah, rdbms basically fails at scale
* [11:34 ] Mojito Sorbet: Let me give you another one that hits closer to home...
* [11:34 ] Mojito Sorbet: A paper at Ars Technica, "What Second Life can
teach your datacenter about scaling Web apps"
* [11:35 ] Tillie Ariantho: Isnt there some description somewhere how
the general infrastructure of google looks like?
* [11:35 ] Enkidu Linden: ooo i should read that
* [11:35 ] Tillie Ariantho: ^^
* [11:35 ] Mojito Sorbet: Writeen buy a guy who USED to work for Linden Labs
* [11:35 ] Xugu Madison: It was really interesting to realise SL is
moving to web services, actually. Not because they're the fastest
option, but because you can actually do things like scaling,
practically.
* [11:36 ] Mojito Sorbet:
http://arstechnica.com/business/data-centers/2010/02/what-second-life-can-teach-all-companies-about-scaling-web-apps.ars
* [11:36 ] Xugu Madison: Xugu Madison tries not to think too hard about
the infrastructure of Google, and is mostly waiting until it breaches
the self-awareness threshhold
* [11:36 ] Enkidu Linden: oh yeah, ian
* [11:36 ] Tillie Ariantho: =)
* [11:37 ] Mojito Sorbet: If you google the term "nosql" you will find
all sorts of interesting papers
* [11:37 ] Tillie Ariantho: Xugu: :P Maybe at some time SL will migrate
from a virtual world to virtual life, too. :P
* [11:37 ] Tillie Ariantho: or better, evolve.
* [11:37 ] Enkidu Linden: i was talking to a friend who is a facebook engineer,
and he was telling me they've run into exactly the same problems
* [11:37 ] Xugu Madison: Great. The SL overmind and the Google megabrain
fighting over the burning remains of the planet. Just what we need :)
* [11:37 ] Tillie Ariantho: And how did they fix it? ^^
* [11:38 ] Xugu Madison: Xugu Madison is rather glad they've got only
about 7,000 users.
* [11:38 ] Tillie Ariantho: Dont say "We started to kill all the virtual
people from facebook and halved our userbase by this." :P
* [11:38 ] Enkidu Linden: by switching to services and using db as little more
than a name-value store
* [11:39 ] Tillie Ariantho: Hm, is there a way for LL to do that, too?
* [11:39 ] Enkidu Linden: i bet if you read ian's ars technica paper, you'll see
the same recommendation
* [11:39 ] Enkidu Linden: sure! we have done that quite a lot
* [11:40 ] Xugu Madison: How are databases doing with Moore's law, BTW?
Do they scale well with hardware?
* [11:40 ] Tillie Ariantho: Means you would just drop all assets from DB
to organized filesystem and only store access keys in the DB?
* [11:41 ] Mojito Sorbet: Databases scale with hardware if they are built right.
* [11:41 ] Mojito Sorbet: For example, Oracle scales quite a lot, but
you end up buying very expensive hardware.
* [11:41 ] Enkidu Linden: i can't speak to that example because i don't know
enough about our asset system
* [11:42 ] Mojito Sorbet: A key/value store scales much better, using
cheap hardware, according to all the papers I have read
* [11:42 ] Enkidu Linden: yep
* [11:42 ] Mojito Sorbet: Look up names like "hadoop" and "couchDB"
* [11:42 ] Tillie Ariantho: But I guess it is something like that.
Getting out the big data blogs and only store the way smaller keys,
which are way better cacheable then, too.
* [11:42 ] Xugu Madison: Mojito, was more thinking if our user base
scales as about Moore's law (it does), we shouldn't need significantly
more expensive hardware to keep up... right?
* [11:42 ] Mojito Sorbet: And work hard to avoid JOINs
* [11:43 ] Xugu Madison: Xugu Madison likes JOINs....
* [11:43 ] Mojito Sorbet: Xugu, only oif there are no bottlenecks
* [11:43 ] Enkidu Linden: i also love joins
* [11:43 ] Enkidu Linden: but that's the price of them
* [11:43 ] Mojito Sorbet: Read that first paper, about social media
killing the RDBMS, and follow links
* [11:44 ] Mojito Sorbet: There is a technique called "map reduce" that
google uses a lot. A way of distributing query load
* [11:44 ] Enkidu Linden: if you join in a service instead, you can move the service around
* [11:44 ] Tillie Ariantho: Are there any databases done in hardware?
... hm... uh... harddisc are behaving like databases, right? ^^ In a
way.
* [11:44 ] Mojito Sorbet: Not these days.
* [11:44 ] Xugu Madison: Tillie, I think Oracle has an option to store
directly into a partition...
* [11:44 ] Mojito Sorbet: These days you need all sorts of replication,
dynamic failover, and things that are far beyond the capabilities of
those old DB-Hardware ideas of 20 years ago
* [11:44 ] Tillie Ariantho: I mean you have a key to access stuff, and
it has a cache for often used entries ...
* [11:45 ] Mojito Sorbet: Oracle has a bare-disk support feature you can
use. Bypasses the OS filesystem
* [11:45 ] Mojito Sorbet: But Oracle's pricing model puts it out of
range of anyone without deep pocketys.
* [11:46 ] Xugu Madison: We primarily still suffer from the code
architecture being horrendously inefficient with number of queries, so
that's where we're focusing for speedups
* [11:46 ] Enkidu Linden: yes
* [11:46 ] Mojito Sorbet: On the other hand, Oracle also owns BerkeleyDB
(nee SleepyCat), a key/value DB
* [11:46 ] Tillie Ariantho: Xugu: who is we, what are you working on? :)
* [11:46 ] Enkidu Linden: nothing ruins a perfectly good computer like software
* [11:47 ] Tillie Ariantho: haha
* [11:47 ] Xugu Madison: Tillie; distributed systems group at St Andrews
university. Internal web application for adminstrating courses. We're
selling if anyone's buying :)
* [11:47 ] Tillie Ariantho: ah =)
* [11:47 ] Enkidu Linden: is that a competitor of blackboard?
* [11:48 ] Enkidu Linden: shoot, brb
* [11:48 ] Xugu Madison: It's... similar. Except no-one's nicknamed our
stuff "Blackhole" yet
* [11:48 ] Tillie Ariantho: haha
* [11:48 ] Tillie Ariantho: 'yet' :P
* [11:49 ] Xugu Madison: It's primarily focused on the admin side,
though, rather than content delivery. Storing, tracking, and managing
marks. Particularly is responsible for reporting final marks up to the
institution now. Finished our first semester where we're used
university wide, on Wednesday
* [11:49 ] Xugu Madison: Tillie; the project is called MMS (Module
Management System). We did here it called Mess a few times
* [11:50 ] Tillie Ariantho: ,)
* [11:50 ] Enkidu Linden: k
* [11:50 ] Xugu Madison: got a survey out to the users tonight, waiting
on responses. So far, mostly people seem really impressed
* [11:50 ] Xugu Madison: Also, distressingly shocked that the university
brought in new procedures and they actually helped
* [11:50 ] Tillie Ariantho: Enkidu probably missed a meeting and just
made a coffee for M as excuse? :D Ah, Enkidu back. ;)
* [11:51 ] Enkidu Linden: hey now!
* [11:51 ] Tillie Ariantho: ^^
* [11:51 ] Xugu Madison: ...Enkidu makes coffee for NO-ONE!?
* [11:51 ] Tillie Ariantho: I don't know how it is working over there at
Linden Labs, Enkidu, you tell us! :P
* [11:51 ] Enkidu Linden: i'm working at home today and my daughter had a big fall
* [11:51 ] Xugu Madison: Yikes! She okay?
* [11:52 ] Xugu Madison: (Although, I'd hope so if you're back at keyboard)
* [11:52 ] Enkidu Linden: yeah, she's made of rubber
* [11:52 ] Xugu Madison: Useful
* [11:52 ] Enkidu Linden: well, we have five minutes, so i can talk about working here
* [11:52 ] Enkidu Linden: or more web stuff
* [11:52 ] Xugu Madison: About working there sounds good
* [11:53 ] Aimee Linden: we're meant to work? DAMN didn't see that on
the job description
* [11:53 ] Xugu Madison: Xugu Madison just opened that Ars Technica
article "Wait, LL data centres are managed by floating robots? Oh
no..."
* [11:53 ] Enkidu Linden: ok!
* [11:53 ] Tillie Ariantho: me thought about working at a company like
LL for a second but they a) probably wouldnt pay what I get now, b) I
hate to move and c) my current job isnt that bad right now. ^^
* [11:54 ] Enkidu Linden: let's talk about your C
* [11:55 ] Tillie Ariantho: oh, and D) I probably have nothing to offer
what they would need. :)
* [11:55 ] Enkidu Linden: i've never had that thought working here
* [11:55 ] Tillie Ariantho: I'm working in the IT of a bank... building
stuff together that our devs write, and deplying it to WebSphere
servers ... banking portals with some 2 million customers. ^^
* [11:56 ] Tillie Ariantho: That was by c). ,)
* [11:56 ] Mojito Sorbet: What concurrency?
* [11:56 ] Enkidu Linden: it's a cool feeling knowing what you do impacts so many
people, isn't it?
* [11:56 ] Tillie Ariantho: Mojito: 30,000 session in the high time.
* [11:56 ] Tillie Ariantho: sessions
* [11:57 ] Tillie Ariantho: It's 8 websphere instances on 2 Linux
machines, 128GB ram each.
* [11:57 ] Tillie Ariantho: But we can handle that with 1 instance on 1
machine, we tried. :)
* [11:57 ] Enkidu Linden: pretty good for 2 machines!
* [11:57 ] Tillie Ariantho: So 7 are more or less to distribute the load a bit. ^^
* [11:58 ] Tillie Ariantho: That's Intel Quadcores, some XEONs, I don't
know the details, 2,6GHz or something.
* [11:59 ] Mojito Sorbet: http://www.sics.se/~joe/apachevsyaws.html
* [11:59 ] Mojito Sorbet: That has an interesting chart showing how
various web servers handle high concurrency
* [11:59 ] Tillie Ariantho: We were testing with a Sun Niagara with 64
threads, but that wasnt better, the Linux systems rulored them. :P
* [11:59 ] Xugu Madison: It's always really cool when you get everything
onto 1-2 machines. So much less distribution work
* [11:59 ] Mojito Sorbet: "rulored"?
* [11:59 ] Tillie Ariantho: Before we were on 8 Sun Fire 480Rs ,)
* [12:00 ] Tillie Ariantho: with Solaris 8
* [12:00 ] Tillie Ariantho: Mojito: were way better. ,)
* [12:00 ] Xugu Madison: We've apparently got... part of a Sun-Fire V440
shared with the main web server
* [12:00 ] Tillie Ariantho: The 64 threads of the niagara didnt help,
but the higher core speed.
* [12:00 ] Tillie Ariantho: of the linux machines
* [12:00 ] Mojito Sorbet: To take advantage of lots of cores, you have
to program properly for that environment
* [12:01 ] Mojito Sorbet: http://www.sics.se/~joe/images/apachevsyaws.jpg
* [12:01 ] Enkidu Linden: wow, i just read that
* [12:01 ] Tillie Ariantho: Our web servers are on 2 machines like that, too. ^^
* [12:01 ] Tillie Ariantho: 16 instances of apache.
* [12:01 ] Tillie Ariantho: 8 on each machine.
* [12:02 ] Mojito Sorbet: Apache dies at about 4,000 threads in that
picture. YAWS keeps on goingat 80,000
* [12:02 ] Mojito Sorbet: Linux threads are too high overhead.
* [12:03 ] Tillie Ariantho: I dont have any numbers/diagrams at hand,
sorry, all bank internal stuff.
* [12:03 ] Mojito Sorbet: YAWS is written in Erlang, which has extremely
lightweight threads.
* [12:04 ] Enkidu Linden: i need to learn erlang
* [12:04 ] Mojito Sorbet: It great fun, once the shock-horror wears off
* [12:04 ] Tillie Ariantho: Our application servers are pretty bored
most of the time. :) Only the database (informix 9 on solaris) has
like 60% load.
* [12:04 ] Enkidu Linden: we've been using tsung here for some load testing, and
it's in erlang
* [12:04 ] Xugu Madison: Yeah, I hear about Erlang a lot...
* [12:04 ] Mojito Sorbet: No loops, no variables, no shared anything
* [12:05 ] Enkidu Linden: hey guys, i'm afraid i need to go work on something
* [12:05 ] Xugu Madison: Take care Enkidu, thanks for coming!
* [12:05 ] Tillie Ariantho: bah, work is overrated. :P
* [12:05 ] Enkidu Linden: thanks for sticking around though!
* [12:05 ] Xugu Madison: Same to you Aimee!
* [12:05 ] Aimee Linden: :)
* [12:05 ] Xugu Madison: and of course, everyone else
* [12:05 ] Enkidu Linden: see you next week!

User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2010 Feb 4

2010-02-05T19:19:09Z

Which Linden: Created page with ''' The wikifier failed, not really sure why, too lazy to figure it out. Still legible.'' * [11:03 ] Xugu Madison: Enkidu! * [11:03 ] Enkidu Linden: hello! * [11:04 ] Xugu Madiso...'

'' The wikifier failed, not really sure why, too lazy to figure it out. Still legible.''
* [11:03 ] Xugu Madison: Enkidu!
* [11:03 ] Enkidu Linden: hello!
* [11:04 ] Xugu Madison: How are you doing?
* [11:04 ] Les Linden: hey enkidu -- RDW OH?
* [11:04 ] Enkidu Linden: i'm well
* [11:04 ] Enkidu Linden: yeah, les
* [11:04 ] Les Linden: word... i'll ping
* [11:04 ] Enkidu Linden: now we just need which
* [11:04 ] Tillie Ariantho: Hello! :)
* [11:04 ] Xugu Madison: Xugu Madison points Enkidu at the sign "He's ill :("
* [11:05 ] Les Linden: ahhhh
* [11:05 ] Les Linden: indeed
* [11:05 ] Les Linden: poor which
* [11:05 ] Xugu Madison: Well, wow, we've got three Lindens. Les,
haven't met you before, what do you do at the lab?
* [11:06 ] Enkidu Linden: oh, it was behind me
* [11:06 ] Les Linden: hi xugu - i'm a program mgr in global tech!
* [11:06 ] Tillie Ariantho: Nothing to discuss without Which? ^^
* [11:06 ] Les Linden: not on my side... actually frees me up for
another mtg. see you guys!!!
* [11:06 ] Enkidu Linden: bye les
* [11:06 ] Tillie Ariantho: What' global tech? Like... uh... loading
windlight settings? ,D VWR-16769
* [11:06 ] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-16769
* [#VWR-16769] Windlight: Settings get loaded at startup... all of them
* [11:06 ] Xugu Madison: Oh dear. See you Les!
* [11:07] Xugu Madison: Enkidu, how are you settling into the lab?
* [11:07] Sasy Scarborough: hi all
* [11:07] Tillie Ariantho: Hello Sasy. :)
* [11:07 ] Enkidu Linden: very well. it's been over a year now
* [11:07 ] Tillie Ariantho: Which is ill, but we have Enkidu here. =)
* [11:08 ] Mojito Sorbet: Could also do "Which is on first" jokes
* [11:08 ] Enkidu Linden: yeah, i'm here! we don't need that guy
* [11:08 ] Tillie Ariantho: So what are you working on usually, Enkidu?
Dont say 'secret projects' now. :P
* [11:09 ] Enkidu Linden: well, i work in the web group
* [11:09 ] Xugu Madison: Web design, applications, services, some
combination of all, or something else?
* [11:09 ] Tillie Ariantho: Ah =)
* [11:10 ] Tillie Ariantho: So xStreet, migration of the forums, blog,
profiles, all that?
* [11:10 ] Enkidu Linden: actually
* [11:10 ] Tillie Ariantho: Hello Aimee, bye Aimee. :P
* [11:10 ] Enkidu Linden: none of that at all
* [11:10 ] Aimee Linden: lol
* [11:10 ] Tillie Ariantho: Enkidu: ah.
* [11:11 ] Enkidu Linden: over the past year most of my work has been on secondlife.com
* [11:11 ] Tillie Ariantho: Ah darn chatrange thingy...
* [11:11 ] Tillie Ariantho: Enikdu: so you did the fully animated
homepage with all the flash bits? ^^
* [11:11 ] Aimee Linden: Aimee Linden grins, I'm winding it up
* [11:11 ] Sasy Scarborough: the new page is pretty, about becoming a premmy
* [11:11 ] Enkidu Linden: haha
* [11:11 ] Enkidu Linden: no i'm afraid i had nothing to do with that either
* [11:12 ] Tillie Ariantho: ugh. ^^
* [11:12 ] Enkidu Linden: my projects tend to be a little farther back
* [11:12 ] Tillie Ariantho: so you configure the apache to still work
even when Evil Linden puts up flash bits? :P
* [11:12 ] Sasy Scarborough: Sasy Scarborough still wonders what it
means that they will have special build access on mainland
* [11:12 ] Xugu Madison: Don't suppose you're at all involved with the
single sign-on stuff Enkidu?
* [11:12 ] Enkidu Linden: for example, a few months ago which and i worked
together to improve the transactions history page
* [11:13 ] Tillie Ariantho: ah =)
* [11:13 ] Tillie Ariantho: Okay, that part of the web. :)
* [11:13 ] Xugu Madison: Love the new transaction history page
* [11:13 ] Mojito Sorbet: Reducing the unneeded white space between enties?
* [11:13 ] Aimee Linden: I don't think Lindens are allowed to Flash, at
least not in a PG area
* [11:13 ] Xugu Madison: Still needs to be 3 months, not 1, but what can you do..
* [11:13 ] Enkidu Linden: thanks. i can do very little about that
* [11:13 ] Xugu Madison: Flash? Wait, what?
* [11:13 ] Enkidu Linden: although i do agree
* [11:13 ] Tillie Ariantho: So bringing the backend to the front stuff. ^^
* [11:14 ] Xugu Madison: Enkidu, tell them I'll go premium if they make
it three months
* [11:14 ] Tillie Ariantho: Xugu: the main page with all the animated
boxes some time ago I meant. ,)
* [11:14 ] Enkidu Linden: haha, awesome
* [11:14 ] Enkidu Linden: i will pass that along
* [11:14 ] Saijanai Kuhn: tremenouds lag can't even type let me relog
* [11:14 ] Sasy Scarborough: paying for a year is the best way to go :)
they pay you in the end
* [11:15 ] Xugu Madison: I'll admit, I can't see them going "Xugu will
go premium? Make it so!", but I live in hope :)
* [11:15 ] Tillie Ariantho: haha
* [11:15 ] Enkidu Linden: i don't mind saying that
* [11:16 ] Xugu Madison: Will it help, though? :)
* [11:16 ] Xugu Madison: but go for it, it'll do my ego good
* [11:16 ] Enkidu Linden: "get your hardhats, people! it's go time!"
* [11:16 ] Xugu Madison: :-D
* [11:16 ] Xugu Madison: Reminded randomly... anyone heard more about
the creative conference LL are arranging? This question goes to the
Lindens too
* [11:16 ] Xugu Madison: ...the Linden, Aimee fled :(
* [11:16 ] Mojito Sorbet: Premium accounts get special no-lag acees; you
didnt know that?
* [11:17 ] Enkidu Linden: i don't know anything about it, unfortunately
* [11:17 ] Aimee Linden: was just relogging :)
* [11:17 ] Xugu Madison: Yay, Aimee back!
* [11:17 ] Sasy Scarborough: Sasy Scarborough thinks her premmy account
is broken then :P
* [11:17 ] Sasy Scarborough: welcome back Aimee
* [11:18 ] Tillie Ariantho: Mojito: I have 2 premiums, and I dont feel
like I am especially unlagged. :P
* [11:18 ] Xugu Madison: Sasy, it's a toggle. I think it's
ctrl-alt-opt-shift-a while hopping on your left foot...
* [11:18 ] Sasy Scarborough: lol
* [11:18 ] Enkidu Linden: so, did you guys want to talk about web stuff?
* [11:18 ] Sasy Scarborough: make it a gesture :P
* [11:18 ] Xugu Madison: Enkidu, sure!
* [11:19 ] Xugu Madison: Not.. entirely sure where I'd start, but web is good!
* [11:19 ] Mojito Sorbet: You must have missed the email where they tell
you the secret access URL...
* [11:19 ] Saijanai Kuhn: this is still laggy, even for which's place
* [11:19 ] Tillie Ariantho: Sure, why not talk about web stuff. :)
* [11:20 ] Xugu Madison: Done anything excitingly webby this week Enkidu?
* [11:20 ] Xugu Madison: Anything you can tease us by not being able to
tell us? :)
* [11:20 ] Enkidu Linden: totally!
* [11:20 ] Enkidu Linden: i love teasing you guys
* [11:20 ] Tillie Ariantho: :D
* [11:21 ] Sasy Scarborough: avatars united is webby i think are you
involved in the behind the scenes of that too ?
* [11:21 ] Enkidu Linden: lots of stuff going on in our group
* [11:21 ] Enkidu Linden: yes, AU is ours now
* [11:21 ] Sasy Scarborough: I like it :)
* [11:21 ] Sasy Scarborough: Sasy Scarborough hates Plurk loves AU
* [11:21 ] Enkidu Linden: i'll be very loosely involved
* [11:22 ] Xugu Madison: Plurk always seemed like a giant heap of
Javascript about to topple on someone at a moment's notice
* [11:22 ] Enkidu Linden: i got to meet several of the former enemy unknown staff,
now lindens, and they seem really great
* [11:22 ] Sasy Scarborough: is it going to be widget heavy so you can
shout in one network and have it yell in all ?
* [11:22 ] Aimee Linden: I like the time line idea with plurk though
* [11:22 ] Tillie Ariantho: AU is nice and clean, only it needs a bit of
useful stuff now. :)
* [11:23 ] Sasy Scarborough: yes its a great format Aimee just
unfortunatly doesnt stop people being trolls or incredibly cruel to
one another
* [11:23 ] Mojito Sorbet: Watch out for scalability though.
* [11:23 ] Tillie Ariantho: Just connecting to everyone and grouping
with everyone is just a start for bigger things.
* [11:24 ] Enkidu Linden: speaking of javascript, jquery 1.4 is out
* [11:25 ] Tillie Ariantho: Yah, I've seen. Any nice new stuff in there? ^^
* [11:25 ] Enkidu Linden: yeah, focus on performance
* [11:26 ] Enkidu Linden: honestly, the performance stuff is the whole cake for me
* [11:26 ] Xugu Madison: We're finally accepting that we're going to
have to use Javascript in our main app. It's built like a tank. Big,
ugly, runs over everything
* [11:26 ] Enkidu Linden: i'm really excited to see the impact upgrading has on
our web properties' user experience
* [11:27 ] Xugu Madison: Xugu Madison nods "Latency is a nightmare"
* [11:27 ] Xugu Madison: (in general terms, I mean, not SL-specific)
* [11:28 ] Enkidu Linden: not that we don't have room to improve there
* [11:28 ] Xugu Madison: It feels a bit like you're trying to do too
much on some pages. I don't know... again, bit of a web luddite, so
might be biased
* [11:29 ] Enkidu Linden: what pages are you thinking of?
* [11:29 ] Tillie Ariantho: Xugu, today everyone tries to do a lot on
the web front... with Web 2.0 features on that many pages some might
just feel as if they lose the race. ^^
* [11:30 ] Sasy Scarborough: Sasy Scarborough has to dash , have fun all
* [11:30 ] Tillie Ariantho: So trying to add shiny web2.0 to get to the
front row again, but forgetting their actual content. ^^
* [11:30 ] Enkidu Linden: bye, sasy
* [11:30 ] Mojito Sorbet: I was just reading a paper titled something
like "Social networking killed the database"
* [11:31 ] Mojito Sorbet: It was about how tradional LAMP ways of
looking the problems, and SQL, could never scale up to what is needed
for social networking
* [11:31 ] Enkidu Linden: indeed
* [11:31 ] Tillie Ariantho: Some websites just feel like a web2.0
showcase... inplace-edit, drag'n'drop, animated stuff... but nothing
useful behind it. ^^
* [11:31 ] Tillie Ariantho: I am not talking about the SL pages now.
* [11:32 ] Mojito Sorbet: And more AJAX than is really needed.
* [11:32 ] Xugu Madison: Mojito, which parts wouldn't scale?
* [11:32 ] Mojito Sorbet: The database itself, mostly. Wait, I look up the URL
* [11:32 ] Enkidu Linden: yeah, database becomes a huge bottleneck
* [11:33 ] Tillie Ariantho: How does google do it with their million servers...?
* [11:33 ] Mojito Sorbet:
http://www.roadtofailure.com/2009/06/19/social-media-kills-the-rdbms/
* [11:33 ] Enkidu Linden: interestingly, we ran into this relatively early in our
history (as i understand it), not because of social networking, but
because running a virtual world is also db-expensive
* [11:33 ] Mojito Sorbet: Google does NOT use relational databases, for one thing
* [11:34 ] Xugu Madison: Is it a case of too much data, or just patterns
not well suited to relational databases?
* [11:34 ] Mojito Sorbet: Both
* [11:34 ] Enkidu Linden: yeah, rdbms basically fails at scale
* [11:34 ] Mojito Sorbet: Let me give you another one that hits closer to home...
* [11:34 ] Mojito Sorbet: A paper at Ars Technica, "What Second Life can
teach your datacenter about scaling Web apps"
* [11:35 ] Tillie Ariantho: Isnt there some description somewhere how
the general infrastructure of google looks like?
* [11:35 ] Enkidu Linden: ooo i should read that
* [11:35 ] Tillie Ariantho: ^^
* [11:35 ] Mojito Sorbet: Writeen buy a guy who USED to work for Linden Labs
* [11:35 ] Xugu Madison: It was really interesting to realise SL is
moving to web services, actually. Not because they're the fastest
option, but because you can actually do things like scaling,
practically.
* [11:36 ] Mojito Sorbet:
http://arstechnica.com/business/data-centers/2010/02/what-second-life-can-teach-all-companies-about-scaling-web-apps.ars
* [11:36 ] Xugu Madison: Xugu Madison tries not to think too hard about
the infrastructure of Google, and is mostly waiting until it breaches
the self-awareness threshhold
* [11:36 ] Enkidu Linden: oh yeah, ian
* [11:36 ] Tillie Ariantho: =)
* [11:37 ] Mojito Sorbet: If you google the term "nosql" you will find
all sorts of interesting papers
* [11:37 ] Tillie Ariantho: Xugu: :P Maybe at some time SL will migrate
from a virtual world to virtual life, too. :P
* [11:37 ] Tillie Ariantho: or better, evolve.
* [11:37 ] Enkidu Linden: i was talking to a friend who is a facebook engineer,
and he was telling me they've run into exactly the same problems
* [11:37 ] Xugu Madison: Great. The SL overmind and the Google megabrain
fighting over the burning remains of the planet. Just what we need :)
* [11:37 ] Tillie Ariantho: And how did they fix it? ^^
* [11:38 ] Xugu Madison: Xugu Madison is rather glad they've got only
about 7,000 users.
* [11:38 ] Tillie Ariantho: Dont say "We started to kill all the virtual
people from facebook and halved our userbase by this." :P
* [11:38 ] Enkidu Linden: by switching to services and using db as little more
than a name-value store
* [11:39 ] Tillie Ariantho: Hm, is there a way for LL to do that, too?
* [11:39 ] Enkidu Linden: i bet if you read ian's ars technica paper, you'll see
the same recommendation
* [11:39 ] Enkidu Linden: sure! we have done that quite a lot
* [11:40 ] Xugu Madison: How are databases doing with Moore's law, BTW?
Do they scale well with hardware?
* [11:40 ] Tillie Ariantho: Means you would just drop all assets from DB
to organized filesystem and only store access keys in the DB?
* [11:41 ] Mojito Sorbet: Databases scale with hardware if they are built right.
* [11:41 ] Mojito Sorbet: For example, Oracle scales quite a lot, but
you end up buying very expensive hardware.
* [11:41 ] Enkidu Linden: i can't speak to that example because i don't know
enough about our asset system
* [11:42 ] Mojito Sorbet: A key/value store scales much better, using
cheap hardware, according to all the papers I have read
* [11:42 ] Enkidu Linden: yep
* [11:42 ] Mojito Sorbet: Look up names like "hadoop" and "couchDB"
* [11:42 ] Tillie Ariantho: But I guess it is something like that.
Getting out the big data blogs and only store the way smaller keys,
which are way better cacheable then, too.
* [11:42 ] Xugu Madison: Mojito, was more thinking if our user base
scales as about Moore's law (it does), we shouldn't need significantly
more expensive hardware to keep up... right?
* [11:42 ] Mojito Sorbet: And work hard to avoid JOINs
* [11:43 ] Xugu Madison: Xugu Madison likes JOINs....
* [11:43 ] Mojito Sorbet: Xugu, only oif there are no bottlenecks
* [11:43 ] Enkidu Linden: i also love joins
* [11:43 ] Enkidu Linden: but that's the price of them
* [11:43 ] Mojito Sorbet: Read that first paper, about social media
killing the RDBMS, and follow links
* [11:44 ] Mojito Sorbet: There is a technique called "map reduce" that
google uses a lot. A way of distributing query load
* [11:44 ] Enkidu Linden: if you join in a service instead, you can move the service around
* [11:44 ] Tillie Ariantho: Are there any databases done in hardware?
... hm... uh... harddisc are behaving like databases, right? ^^ In a
way.
* [11:44 ] Mojito Sorbet: Not these days.
* [11:44 ] Xugu Madison: Tillie, I think Oracle has an option to store
directly into a partition...
* [11:44 ] Mojito Sorbet: These days you need all sorts of replication,
dynamic failover, and things that are far beyond the capabilities of
those old DB-Hardware ideas of 20 years ago
* [11:44 ] Tillie Ariantho: I mean you have a key to access stuff, and
it has a cache for often used entries ...
* [11:45 ] Mojito Sorbet: Oracle has a bare-disk support feature you can
use. Bypasses the OS filesystem
* [11:45 ] Mojito Sorbet: But Oracle's pricing model puts it out of
range of anyone without deep pocketys.
* [11:46 ] Xugu Madison: We primarily still suffer from the code
architecture being horrendously inefficient with number of queries, so
that's where we're focusing for speedups
* [11:46 ] Enkidu Linden: yes
* [11:46 ] Mojito Sorbet: On the other hand, Oracle also owns BerkeleyDB
(nee SleepyCat), a key/value DB
* [11:46 ] Tillie Ariantho: Xugu: who is we, what are you working on? :)
* [11:46 ] Enkidu Linden: nothing ruins a perfectly good computer like software
* [11:47 ] Tillie Ariantho: haha
* [11:47 ] Xugu Madison: Tillie; distributed systems group at St Andrews
university. Internal web application for adminstrating courses. We're
selling if anyone's buying :)
* [11:47 ] Tillie Ariantho: ah =)
* [11:47 ] Enkidu Linden: is that a competitor of blackboard?
* [11:48 ] Enkidu Linden: shoot, brb
* [11:48 ] Xugu Madison: It's... similar. Except no-one's nicknamed our
stuff "Blackhole" yet
* [11:48 ] Tillie Ariantho: haha
* [11:48 ] Tillie Ariantho: 'yet' :P
* [11:49 ] Xugu Madison: It's primarily focused on the admin side,
though, rather than content delivery. Storing, tracking, and managing
marks. Particularly is responsible for reporting final marks up to the
institution now. Finished our first semester where we're used
university wide, on Wednesday
* [11:49 ] Xugu Madison: Tillie; the project is called MMS (Module
Management System). We did here it called Mess a few times
* [11:50 ] Tillie Ariantho: ,)
* [11:50 ] Enkidu Linden: k
* [11:50 ] Xugu Madison: got a survey out to the users tonight, waiting
on responses. So far, mostly people seem really impressed
* [11:50 ] Xugu Madison: Also, distressingly shocked that the university
brought in new procedures and they actually helped
* [11:50 ] Tillie Ariantho: Enkidu probably missed a meeting and just
made a coffee for M as excuse? :D Ah, Enkidu back. ;)
* [11:51 ] Enkidu Linden: hey now!
* [11:51 ] Tillie Ariantho: ^^
* [11:51 ] Xugu Madison: ...Enkidu makes coffee for NO-ONE!?
* [11:51 ] Tillie Ariantho: I don't know how it is working over there at
Linden Labs, Enkidu, you tell us! :P
* [11:51 ] Enkidu Linden: i'm working at home today and my daughter had a big fall
* [11:51 ] Xugu Madison: Yikes! She okay?
* [11:52 ] Xugu Madison: (Although, I'd hope so if you're back at keyboard)
* [11:52 ] Enkidu Linden: yeah, she's made of rubber
* [11:52 ] Xugu Madison: Useful
* [11:52 ] Enkidu Linden: well, we have five minutes, so i can talk about working here
* [11:52 ] Enkidu Linden: or more web stuff
* [11:52 ] Xugu Madison: About working there sounds good
* [11:53 ] Aimee Linden: we're meant to work? DAMN didn't see that on
the job description
* [11:53 ] Xugu Madison: Xugu Madison just opened that Ars Technica
article "Wait, LL data centres are managed by floating robots? Oh
no..."
* [11:53 ] Enkidu Linden: ok!
* [11:53 ] Tillie Ariantho: me thought about working at a company like
LL for a second but they a) probably wouldnt pay what I get now, b) I
hate to move and c) my current job isnt that bad right now. ^^
* [11:54 ] Enkidu Linden: let's talk about your C
* [11:55 ] Tillie Ariantho: oh, and D) I probably have nothing to offer
what they would need. :)
* [11:55 ] Enkidu Linden: i've never had that thought working here
* [11:55 ] Tillie Ariantho: I'm working in the IT of a bank... building
stuff together that our devs write, and deplying it to WebSphere
servers ... banking portals with some 2 million customers. ^^
* [11:56 ] Tillie Ariantho: That was by c). ,)
* [11:56 ] Mojito Sorbet: What concurrency?
* [11:56 ] Enkidu Linden: it's a cool feeling knowing what you do impacts so many
people, isn't it?
* [11:56 ] Tillie Ariantho: Mojito: 30,000 session in the high time.
* [11:56 ] Tillie Ariantho: sessions
* [11:57 ] Tillie Ariantho: It's 8 websphere instances on 2 Linux
machines, 128GB ram each.
* [11:57 ] Tillie Ariantho: But we can handle that with 1 instance on 1
machine, we tried. :)
* [11:57 ] Enkidu Linden: pretty good for 2 machines!
* [11:57 ] Tillie Ariantho: So 7 are more or less to distribute the load a bit. ^^
* [11:58 ] Tillie Ariantho: That's Intel Quadcores, some XEONs, I don't
know the details, 2,6GHz or something.
* [11:59 ] Mojito Sorbet: http://www.sics.se/~joe/apachevsyaws.html
* [11:59 ] Mojito Sorbet: That has an interesting chart showing how
various web servers handle high concurrency
* [11:59 ] Tillie Ariantho: We were testing with a Sun Niagara with 64
threads, but that wasnt better, the Linux systems rulored them. :P
* [11:59 ] Xugu Madison: It's always really cool when you get everything
onto 1-2 machines. So much less distribution work
* [11:59 ] Mojito Sorbet: "rulored"?
* [11:59 ] Tillie Ariantho: Before we were on 8 Sun Fire 480Rs ,)
* [12:00 ] Tillie Ariantho: with Solaris 8
* [12:00 ] Tillie Ariantho: Mojito: were way better. ,)
* [12:00 ] Xugu Madison: We've apparently got... part of a Sun-Fire V440
shared with the main web server
* [12:00 ] Tillie Ariantho: The 64 threads of the niagara didnt help,
but the higher core speed.
* [12:00 ] Tillie Ariantho: of the linux machines
* [12:00 ] Mojito Sorbet: To take advantage of lots of cores, you have
to program properly for that environment
* [12:01 ] Mojito Sorbet: http://www.sics.se/~joe/images/apachevsyaws.jpg
* [12:01 ] Enkidu Linden: wow, i just read that
* [12:01 ] Tillie Ariantho: Our web servers are on 2 machines like that, too. ^^
* [12:01 ] Tillie Ariantho: 16 instances of apache.
* [12:01 ] Tillie Ariantho: 8 on each machine.
* [12:02 ] Mojito Sorbet: Apache dies at about 4,000 threads in that
picture. YAWS keeps on goingat 80,000
* [12:02 ] Mojito Sorbet: Linux threads are too high overhead.
* [12:03 ] Tillie Ariantho: I dont have any numbers/diagrams at hand,
sorry, all bank internal stuff.
* [12:03 ] Mojito Sorbet: YAWS is written in Erlang, which has extremely
lightweight threads.
* [12:04 ] Enkidu Linden: i need to learn erlang
* [12:04 ] Mojito Sorbet: It great fun, once the shock-horror wears off
* [12:04 ] Tillie Ariantho: Our application servers are pretty bored
most of the time. :) Only the database (informix 9 on solaris) has
like 60% load.
* [12:04 ] Enkidu Linden: we've been using tsung here for some load testing, and
it's in erlang
* [12:04 ] Xugu Madison: Yeah, I hear about Erlang a lot...
* [12:04 ] Mojito Sorbet: No loops, no variables, no shared anything
* [12:05 ] Enkidu Linden: hey guys, i'm afraid i need to go work on something
* [12:05 ] Xugu Madison: Take care Enkidu, thanks for coming!
* [12:05 ] Tillie Ariantho: bah, work is overrated. :P
* [12:05 ] Enkidu Linden: thanks for sticking around though!
* [12:05 ] Xugu Madison: Same to you Aimee!
* [12:05 ] Aimee Linden: :)
* [12:05 ] Xugu Madison: and of course, everyone else
* [12:05 ] Enkidu Linden: see you next week!

User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2010 Jan 21

2010-01-21T20:09:15Z

Which Linden: Created page with '* [11:01] Youri Ashton: hey which and tech * [11:01] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Here he is. hey Which. * [11:01] [[User:Which Lin...'

* [11:01] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: hey which and tech
* [11:01] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Here he is. hey Which.
* [11:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hi there!
* [11:01] [[User:Questar Utu|Questar Utu]]: .. Just got a group invite..
* [11:02] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: hi all through the lag
* [11:02] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: That was from me, to AW Groupies.
* [11:02] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Yeah, as did I. AW group - can accept if you want. :P
* [11:02] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: did.
* [11:02] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Any members here besides me?
* [11:02] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: ;-)
* [11:02] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: hey mojito :)
* [11:02] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: hey
* [11:02] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: yeah, tech, and me
* [11:02] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: and which
* [11:02] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: tillie as well btw
* [11:02] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: lol
* [11:03] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: changes group. ^^
* [11:03] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: lol
* [11:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So.... any topics we want to talk about? We could continue discussing the "future of sl" like we were the past two weeks
* [11:04] [[User:Ardy Lay|Ardy Lay]]: Something funky in my last SVN update for Snowglobe. It is crashing on "unexpected textures".
* [11:04] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I think we have beat that one enough
* [11:04] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: future of SL sounds fun to talk about, wasnt here past weeks
* [11:04] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Ardy - I *think* that was being discussed about in #opensl earlier.
* [11:04] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: Future of SL sound nice, yes. ^^
* [11:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Ha ha, two conflicting opinions!
* [11:04] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: to much... euhmm... work
* [11:04] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Im ok with more on that topic
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: OK, MOAR!
* [11:05] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: my team pretty much left me doing all the work, so i got about 90% to do in a very short time o_0
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: How about, opening the walled garden?
* [11:05] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: For the future of SL, I vote on making more chairs out of living bamboo. :P
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: O_O
* [11:05] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Oh dear.
* [11:05] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: LOLWUT protocol for IM?
* [11:05] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: LOL
* [11:06] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: its a sekret
* [11:06] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: Did you already talk about "custom sim surroundings"? :-)
* [11:06] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: tilli, sit on which?
* [11:06] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Inifinity could explain it sorta
* [11:06] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I think solving sclability WITHIN the walled garden may also deal with the problems of linking outside it
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'd always envisioned the agent domain thing solving both at the same time
* [11:06] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: and various opensim types have cracked it. I think Enus has got it working in pyogp
* [11:06] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: you dont sit on a plant, you enjoy their beauty
* [11:07] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: lol
* [11:07] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: hey squirrel, long time no see
* [11:07] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Hey Squirrel
* [11:07] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I am not sure that AD's will solve how you get 100 avatars in one region
* [11:07] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: waves to Squirrel.
* [11:07] [[User:Squirrel Wood|Squirrel Wood]]: Aloha!
* [11:07] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: IBM already did it
* [11:07] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: they ported the sim code for AS400 ?
* [11:07] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: on their own network
* [11:08] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Oh? Using the same hardware LL does?
* [11:08] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: no lag with it either, although... thats their claim
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: That's cool
* [11:08] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: i was at a meeting end of last year where IBM told about that
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Seems reasonable to me -- just count on Moore's law!
* [11:08] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Another kind of scalability is handling more than 70k at once, regardless of density
* [11:08] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: Uh, who wants to have software on AS400? That sounds so 'host'. Isnt everyone moving to linux on standard pc architecture nowadays?
* [11:08] [[User:Ardy Lay|Ardy Lay]]: I would GUESS that IBM threw expensive hardware at it.
* [11:08] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Mojito the idea is that once you get AD's working, you get services that sims normally provide offloaded to other servers besides the sim
* [11:09] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Tell that to Sun
* [11:09] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: their grafics looked a little improved as well, or atleast... it looked better then SL has
* [11:09] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: tilli, not unless you have loads of paralel processes
* [11:09] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: We just moved our internet portals from solaris/sun fires to linux/intels :)
* [11:09] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Yes, offloading helps. ANyone actually measured what % of a sims time is spoent doing non-sim things?
* [11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah, Mojito, actually when you talk about scalability, most Lindens will think of global scalability
* [11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Not avatars-per-region scalability
* [11:10] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: lone: we have 1 million customers with 28,000 sessions at the peak time... running on 2 linux machines only. :-)
* [11:10] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Considering the average density of avatars in SL is nearly zero, the whole things is STILL unstable when more than 80K log in
* [11:10] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: think you should talk about that with IBM then Which, seems you really have to find out what they did to improve it :p
* [11:10] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: i have been afk 2 months, but i suppose its still ~40 av's per sim before it strats to lag?
* [11:10] [[User:Ardy Lay|Ardy Lay]]: Too many events are limited by the simulator crying when agent count gets above 35.
* [11:11] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: lonetorus - depends on each avatar's script times.
* [11:11] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: lone: we had a fashion show last week with 75 people in the sim. worked pretty well. sure a bit laggy, but I could take photos of almost all. :-)
* [11:11] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I have seen 80 in ja sim, but they were all sitting down and not moving
* [11:11] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: An average of 0.5-1.0 per avatar will cause quite a bit of lag.
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I think sim lagginess is still influenced by the other proceses on the hosst
* [11:11] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Which every time I look at the top scripts, it's always the avatars. :(
* [11:11] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: its not just avitars in a sim that cause the problems, dont forget about the things that needs to be rezzed like buildings, clothing, attachements and textures
* [11:11] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Group IMs, texture proxies, etc
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so if you've got a simhost with only one region it'll do a lot better
* [11:12] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: The 75 people event was on rezzable greenies sim, maybe they did optimize it for best performance. ^^
* [11:12] [[User:Squirrel Wood|Squirrel Wood]]: sim lag.. have you ever tried testing this on sims which have more ram available to them than usual?
* [11:12] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Maybe... I don't know
* [11:12] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: it all adds to how much lag you will end up with, specially if you have a slow connection or slow Pc to start out with
* [11:12] [[User:Ardy Lay|Ardy Lay]]: Which, I seem to be living with 8 full regions on a host.
* [11:12] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: The trick is to seperate scripts from TD. Scripts is the biggest cause of lag. Seperate that out and can 100 plus into a sim
* [11:12] [[User:Squirrel Wood|Squirrel Wood]]: only 8 ? ^^
* [11:12] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Can the sim code take advantage of multiple cores, if they were available, even after the admin stuff gets offloaded? I am referring to the basic physics stuff.
* [11:13] [[User:Ardy Lay|Ardy Lay]]: I found 8. Surely there are not more.
* [11:13] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: i agree with tech
* [11:13] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: to many things of anything is a problem tech
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Mojito: probably
* [11:13] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: I'd bet there are some quad-core-quad-CPU servers running at LL.
* [11:13] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: not just scripts
* [11:13] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: everything where "too" for stands, is bad
* [11:13] [[User:Jonathan Yap|Jonathan Yap]]: I thought scripts were limited to how much time they could use per frame
* [11:13] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: How much memory do those servers have and are they 64bit ones? Our java app servers are 64bit and have 128mb memory, that works pretty well. :)
* [11:14] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: they aint, tech does have a point, lots of people do not realise that scripts add to lag
* [11:14] [[User:Ardy Lay|Ardy Lay]]: I kinda think I am suffering from host throughput issues. Maybe it's virtual memory delays though. I don't know.
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Our servers are 64-bit
* [11:14] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: I remember hearing all the systems ran 64-bit Debian?
* [11:14] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: 128GB I meant. :P
* [11:14] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: specially in high numbers
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: But I believe that the sim is 32-bit, for memory reasons
* [11:14] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: That's understandable. 64-bit can use more memory just by switching from 32-bit.
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: And 2 GB of memory, so that's probably the biggest bottleneck
* [11:15] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Oh ow.
* [11:15] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: So the hardware and Linux are 64bit, but any single sim server process is 32 bits?
* [11:15] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: well thats a problem Which, the problem is not just on the user side, but also on server side
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'd like to see you install 10,000 ram sticks!
* [11:15] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: I have 2GiB and KDE constantly goes 'BLARGH' because SL eats so much.
* [11:15] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: But switching from 32 to 64 gives a lot more cpu registers
* [11:15] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: You dont have to do it all at once!
* [11:15] [[User:Jonathan Yap|Jonathan Yap]]: Good job for some interns, switching ram sticks :)
* [11:15] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: you can not espect to send data and espect it will get over just good with just any material you use. money can not be saved on things like that
* [11:15] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I run in 4GB with Gnome and it seems ok
* [11:16] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: That's what IT students are for. :_)
* [11:16] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: That's my upgrade plan - 4GiB. KDE4 will fly then. :)
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Probably we'll just buy new hardware and migrate to it
* [11:16] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Actually, best to replace the memory as part of a general hardware upgrade. When you put in those new multicore processors.
* [11:16] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: for example, a PC is state of the art, latest there is with best internet connection available
* [11:16] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: I've just upgraded my laptop here to 4G and it really improved
* [11:16] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Having to take each box out of the ack, and open it, just to put in RAM, seems a waste of time
* [11:17] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: *rack
* [11:17] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: but the server is pretty slow by standard and connection on server side is not high at all
* [11:17] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: then you can espect that the home pc will run on the speed of the server, not the pc
* [11:17] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Surely there are multi-connection gigabit ethernets in the racks...
* [11:17] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: I've has a SL core dump of 4G plus size
* [11:17] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: has=had
* [11:17] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: o_o
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Incidentally, we're about to do a minor L$-related change as part of our migration to a different colo
* [11:17] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: since the server can not keep up with the pc, the pc will have to slow down so the server can keep up
* [11:18] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: which, not to derail the topic, but has it ever been considered to offer a monthly service of emailing transaction history to ppl ?
* [11:18] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So I'll be a bit distracted
* [11:18] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: hi enkidu
* [11:18] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: A different colo where?
* [11:18] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Is this part of the new Europe plan?
* [11:18] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: lone, libiliy. Its sent in the clear
* [11:18] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: hey everyone
* [11:18] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: europe plan will be most likely in euro's
* [11:18] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: instead of dollars for starters
* [11:18] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: waves to Enkidu.
* [11:19] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: hi :)
* [11:19] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: and supposedly ssl is trivial to open these days ;)
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Ionetorus: not sure about that specifically, but lots of enhncements for transactions have been JIRA'd and put on roadmaps
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The new colo's in dallas
* [11:19] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Sooo I'll have to use euros instead of s?
* [11:19] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Replacing Austin?
* [11:19] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: $s*
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: We're cutting over L$ service now....shouldn't be a service interruption
* [11:19] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: think english pounds will not do
* [11:19] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Heh
* [11:19] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: the euro is the most used money in europe, not the UK pound
* [11:20] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: I know.
* [11:20] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: I did correct my mistake. :)
* [11:20] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: :)
* [11:20] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I hope there are ways to block currency speculators from using Lindex as a medium
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: OK waiting for dns to propagate
* [11:20] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: think both euro's as dollars will work
* [11:20] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: cant espect people outside Europe work with euro's
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: not sure we ever had an Austin colo
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: replacing SFO
* [11:22] [[User:Disconnected from|Disconnected from]]: in-world Voice Chat
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: well, that was ironic
* [11:28] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Which Linden broke the sim? :P
* [11:28] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Haha
* [11:28] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: We talk about sclability, and this happens
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: near as I can tell, the hardware we were running on failed
* [11:28] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: the sims are sentient... they "hear" us :)
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: can't ping that host anymore (sim4768)
* [11:28] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Need those AS400, s then
* [11:28] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: ugh
* [11:29] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I am not sure when it dies
* [11:29] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Took me ages to log back in.
* [11:29] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: well, I thought it was me
* [11:29] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Oh, I had thought there was a texas colo before
* [11:29] [[User:Questar Utu|Questar Utu]]: Me too.
* [11:29] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: For some reason I had thought it was Austin
* [11:29] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Mojito: it was in Dallas; we're just consolidating
* [11:29] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Ohl, ok
* [11:29] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I think maybe we considered Austing?
* [11:29] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: there's certainly a lot there
* [11:29] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: how many data centers are there now?
* [11:30] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I know Oracle has a huge datacenter there
* [11:30] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Linden has I think 3
* [11:30] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: A lot north of Austin... Plano?
* [11:30] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: About SFO... is that just too expensive or do you fear that SF at some time vanishes in a big earthquake?
* [11:30] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Yes, I saw a white paper on Oracles "green" modifications to that data center. Quite strange looking,
* [11:30] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: not sure what happened back there
* [11:30] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Any pans for datacenters in Europe?
* [11:30] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: hey open
* [11:30] [[User:Opensource Obscure|Opensource Obscure]]: what benefits will get european users when the Amsterdam datacenter will start its operations?
* [11:30] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: plans*
* [11:30] [[User:Opensource Obscure|Opensource Obscure]]: hey everybody btw
* [11:30] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Didnt M or T mention a Europe Data center?
* [11:31] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: i do sah
* [11:31] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Ah, I didn't see that part then.
* [11:31] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: less likely to crash :p
* [11:31] [[User:Opensource Obscure|Opensource Obscure]]: He did Mojito - Amsterdam
* [11:31] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: How would the regions to be hosted there be chosen?
* [11:31] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: So I can expect sub-100 pings eventually. :P
* [11:31] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: which, know what happened back there already?
* [11:31] [[User:Opensource Obscure|Opensource Obscure]]: i'm not sure it will be about region servers
* [11:31] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Its all because I invited Enkidu to Groupies
* [11:31] [[User:Opensource Obscure|Opensource Obscure]]: database servers, apparently
* [11:32] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I think there are plans for a Euro datacenter, not sure what city
* [11:32] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Not London I hope.
* [11:32] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Oh, just moving Assets and stuff closer would help
* [11:32] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I have no idea how that's going to work, honestly
* [11:32] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: amsterdam most likely, is main office for europe
* [11:32] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: amsterdam is most likely to be used since its cheaper then the rest as well
* [11:32] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Especially once the region sims get out of the way for asset loading
* [11:32] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'd guess that we'd do something similar to what amazon does; allow people to choose which colo they want their stuff in
* [11:32] [[User:Opensource Obscure|Opensource Obscure]]: catherine told it will be amsterdam here [http://www.massively.com/2010/01/03/massively-s-interview-with-linden-lab-s-catherine-smith-in-amst/]
* [11:33] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: quality/price is best here, lets put it that way :p
* [11:33] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I think Amsterdam has good connectivity too
* [11:33] [[User:Opensource Obscure|Opensource Obscure]]: which, so you think european datacenter will hold both regions and databases
* [11:33] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: :p
* [11:33] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: A lot of banking there... Amstelveen area
* [11:33] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: think that Philip and M finally starting to listen to me about that tip :p
* [11:34] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: i told em to get their servers over her
* [11:34] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: On to Singapore!
* [11:34] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: less rules as well that spoil SL
* [11:34] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: exactly, Mojito... Bejing
* [11:34] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Would be nice if say, Europeans had their assets in a European datacenter then the US having theirs in the US - or generally just having everyone's as close to them as possible.
* [11:34] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Or maybe Hong Kong. SOme big colo buildings there. Lots of rack space available
* [11:35] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: distance on the internet does not really matter sah
* [11:35] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: amsterdam will allow LL more freedom content wise.
* [11:35] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: It does - I only pull 800k down.
* [11:35] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: distance on internet isnt really counting
* [11:35] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: But administrative boundaries matter
* [11:35] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: European privacy laws might get interesting
* [11:35] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: doesnt matter if you download a file from some place in the US or at a local station
* [11:35] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: Which - do we have the ability to distribute the assets around like that, and perhaps tag which ones should be "primary" in a specific datacenter?
* [11:36] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Unless it is a crypto algorithm...
* [11:36] [[User:Jonathan Yap|Jonathan Yap]]: You'd want a "primary" asset to be "close" to the majority of people accessing it (e.g. sim visitors)
* [11:36] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: the first your connection does is look for the regional hud, which broadcasts it to the national hubs, from there you go to the country you need to go and same way down
* [11:36] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Not sure you could determine that in advance...
* [11:37] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: so doesnt matter what is placed where in that
* [11:37] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: A "smart" distributed data store could move things around depending on what it "learns" about access patterns
* [11:37] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ok sorry I was ignoring you all; checking on latency
* [11:37] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: IN any case, since the asset store is write-once, you just replicate the whole works
* [11:37] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: problem now is just that the LL servers seem to have a bug that can not be taken out without takign the whole grid down for long period of time
* [11:37] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: European laws totally suck, google and flickr censor me and I have no way to proof that I am over 18 and can decide myself what I want to see and what not.
* [11:37] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: is that a self-referential joke ?
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: OO: yeah, I think it'll have regions, not sure about databases
* [11:38] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Yeah, another big outage coming first week of February I see
* [11:38] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: wb open
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The idae of making a whole mini-SL is good, but it's tricky because we don't have the architectural support for it
* [11:38] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Tillie - I've never had to prove I'm over 18 except to LL.
* [11:38] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: wasnt talking about that which :p
* [11:38] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: was talking about internet in general :p
* [11:39] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: mojito: that outage is for moving more servers to dallas, IIRC
* [11:39] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: If you move, say 20% of Regions to Amsterdam, it will improve European response time marginally, and not hurt anyone else much, except Asians.
* [11:40] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It makes the most sense to move regions that Europeans ar on, not just random regions
* [11:40] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: from your home pc -> sub station (local). -> national station -> to country it needs to travel -> sub station -> server
* [11:40] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: same way back
* [11:40] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: But if you moved clearly Europe-themed places, like the Dubln pub (4 sims) and Paris and Moscow, that probably get a lot of local vitits.
* [11:40] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: or for proxies, it can take a longer route
* [11:40] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: I think people should get the option to switch, so if most of their visitors are European, they can switch it to there and such.
* [11:40] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: There is a Tyrolean sim that seems pretty much filled with German-speakers.
* [11:40] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: And switching contiguous blocks of mainland would make sense
* [11:40] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: Sahkolihaa: Google just doesnt allow me anywhere to tell them... and flickr neither. I had to create a fresh account at yahoo.co.uk with England/London as my country/city to get rid of the flickr filters.
* [11:41] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: Follow the sun cpu cycle availability? :)
* [11:41] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Ah, I'm in the UK so that explains why I don't get filtered. :/
* [11:41] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: My home sim is decidedly japanese in content, but only a fraction of the regulars are Japanese or Australian.
* [11:41] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: UK has a different filter then the US has
* [11:41] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Most are USA or Europe
* [11:41] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: each country has their own rules on that subject
* [11:42] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: the netherlands is pretty open on the subject, only block dangerous things. and not just anythign that could be offending to someone
* [11:42] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Speaking of locality, here is a question...
* [11:42] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: German law forces companies to filter content if your are not 18+. But instead of checking age they just filter for EVERYONE. That's censorship. I should complain in Den Haag or whereever I have to ... :-/
* [11:42] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: think that might be a good reason for LL to place their servers here
* [11:42] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Does the list of last-name choices you are presented with have something to do with where you connect from?
* [11:42] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: I worked for a company that had an worldwide internal network, and it was interesting to see the spikes in local vs. remote network traffic, as office hours opened, lunchtimes happened, etc. 24/7... we moved some processing to "closed for the night offices" to help distribute the load
* [11:43] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: just movet o the netherlands tillie :p
* [11:43] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: less dumb rules :p
* [11:43] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: And Youri, if we do... you'll complain about the lag 'cuz of all the foreigners ;)
* [11:43] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: haha
* [11:43] [[User:brash has|brash has]]: no penis uppercut: activated.
* [11:43] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: ouch
* [11:43] [[User:Opensource Obscure|Opensource Obscure]]: yay.
* [11:44] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: the gouvernment tries to go to US style gouvernment tho, so that may cause serious problems if that continues
* [11:44] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: o.o
* [11:44] [[User:Jonathan Yap|Jonathan Yap]]: Different regapi portals give different selections of last names: [http://slnamewatch.com/portals.php]
* [11:44] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: JB, in the netherlands we have far better internet capabilities then the US ever had :p
* [11:44] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Ah, that explains it. I was trying to set up an Alt with a Japanese name, but I could not get any offered.
* [11:44] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: we are infact the best of the world at this time :p
* [11:44] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: huh that's interesting, never knew that about the names
* [11:45] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: Of course you are, Youri *grins*
* [11:45] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Estonia has better internet than much of the US.
* [11:45] [[User:Jonathan Yap|Jonathan Yap]]: Mojito, you can see all possible last names from that home page
* [11:45] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: slnamewatch is a great concept for a site
* [11:45] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: because of Skype :)
* [11:45] [[User:Opensource Obscure|Opensource Obscure]]: also, you won't manage to register any name that includes ASS. like mASSimo or cASSandra, that are both 100% legit
* [11:45] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: there is a site that keeps track of ALL SL names
* [11:45] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: resident names, mole, linden, anything
* [11:46] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: Open - I wish they would expand the name filter a bit... some really lame and obvious griefer names get through :(
* [11:46] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: hmm... lemme see if i have a link
* [11:46] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Oh I see, if I use a RegAPI site, I would get different offerings.
* [11:46] [[User:Jonathan Yap|Jonathan Yap]]: yes Mojito. I think one site only offers GossipGirl
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: is amazed at how many regapi sites there are
* [11:46] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: [http://slnamewatch.com/]
* [11:46] [[User:Opensource Obscure|Opensource Obscure]]: i agree but i guess it's not a simple task to solve with komputerrz
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: gossipgirl (1 names) <-- lol
* [11:47] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: looks a lot like the one that Jonathan posted
* [11:47] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: must be the Dutch "lag" ;)
* [11:47] [[User:Jonathan Yap|Jonathan Yap]]: I posted the link to the regapis, not the home page
* [11:48] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: Hm, Loomslough is the least used name, why that? :P haha
* [11:48] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: i rather have the feeling that LL will keep the servers that are operational now, in the US and just buy new ones here
* [11:48] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: And no use of non-ASCII letters. Boo..
* [11:49] [[User:Jonathan Yap|Jonathan Yap]]: Loomslough is a new name, for one thing
* [11:49] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: then install it right here and make sure its running before going to the new server
* [11:49] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: most likely the bugs will be dead then as well
* [11:49] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: and Huillermeyer ... I think that is misspelled and should be Hillermeyer. ^^
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So, um, back to the topic of opening the walled garden
* [11:50] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: listens...
* [11:50] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I saw they were going to allow non-ASDCII letters in internet node names..
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: http in / out hasn't done as much to open up SL as I thought it would have
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: what's needed to improve that situation?
* [11:51] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: wants to see sims export an xml catalog of objects so they can be crawled by the googlebot
* [11:51] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Well, maybe running a web server inside a prim within SL is kinda, um, performance limited
* [11:51] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: what are you trying to get done then which?
* [11:51] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: wahtever man, my fingernails run web servers
* [11:51] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: not sure, WHich. But, the html on a prim is almost never used, period
* [11:51] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: hey aimee :p
* [11:51] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: I think that the change of the http address on reboot is pretty bad. YOu cant use it as a server at all.
* [11:51] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: wondering if that is related in some way
* [11:51] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: no longer a butter fly i see :p
* [11:51] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hi aimee!
* [11:52] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: One less bug to deal with..
* [11:52] [[User:Aimee Linden|Aimee Linden]]: heh
* [11:52] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: You STILL need a fixed server elsewhere to find out how your http server is named now ...
* [11:52] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Hey Aimee and Poppy.
* [11:52] [[User:Jonathan Yap|Jonathan Yap]]: How many people have access to servers?
* [11:52] [[User:Aimee Linden|Aimee Linden]]: hi :)
* [11:52] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: hey poppy
* [11:52] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: hey guys
* [11:52] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah, totally, tillie, but it's hard to imagine a solution that's not itself a scalability problem
* [11:52] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Maybe have your http-prim has to register itself with dyndns.org...
* [11:52] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: the http server in a prim would be really nice if the address wouldnt change.
* [11:52] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: dudes it's Linden time
* [11:52] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: resists mc hammer joke
* [11:52] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: Which: so no one thought about it when implementing... its not really useful at least for ME as it is now.
* [11:53] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: :P
* [11:53] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: I just dont know what to use a server for thats not reachable after a sim reboot.
* [11:53] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: tillie: kelly definitely thought about that problem a lot, but concluded that scalability had to come first
* [11:54] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: maybe he planned for a global registry sometime, I don't know
* [11:54] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: Thats like dyndns in web... not pretty much usable for real stuff.
* [11:54] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: there's already third-party object registries
* [11:54] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: they are pretty rad
* [11:55] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: I dont want to rely on stuff that is outside my reach... you never know if they dont vanish at some time.
* [11:55] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: anyways, thank you Which for the meeting, but I really have to poof to next meeting. very important one for my team coming up
* [11:55] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: The comment I'd heard was ... "go build one, there's an opportunity!"
* [11:56] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ok youri, take care
* [11:56] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: tc Youri
* [11:56] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah; we're weirdly schizophrenic about third-parties providing solution
* [11:56] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: bye bye everyone!
* [11:56] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: bye aimee :p
* [11:56] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: one the one hand, yeah, creating business opportunities for others is what we do
* [11:56] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: On the other, it's kind of a bad user experience
* [11:56] [[User:Aimee Linden|Aimee Linden]]: bye :)
* [11:56] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: If I have to build all stuff my self, why use the http in thingy then, I could just do ALL my stuff outside SL and request it from a prim. Much more control...
* [11:57] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The real world has a bad user experience!
* [11:57] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I agree with Tillie.
* [11:57] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: What's this 'real world' you speak of? ;)
* [11:57] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: i agree with Which.
* [11:57] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Just have the inworld object feed data to a "real" web service elsewhere
* [11:57] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: What do you mean "all your stuff"?
* [11:57] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I mean, the point of http-in isn't that the prim does anything substantial
* [11:57] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: I mean: why use an inworld server if I STILL need an external webserver anyway?
* [11:58] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: Just moving ALL of my code to outside SL gives me WAY more possibilities ...
* [11:58] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Just to report local going-on in its vicinity. Which, come to think of it, is a TOS violation
* [11:58] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: python, perl, php, java, whatever I want to use...
* [11:58] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: and debuggers to improve my code ...
* [11:58] [[User:Mystical Demina|Mystical Demina]]: i see it kind of like an avatar but access to all the prims and everything in the sim
* [11:58] [[User:Mystical Demina|Mystical Demina]]: from a web service
* [11:59] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: Tillie, i think that's part of the point.
* [11:59] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: so give me an example of that an inworld webserver is really good for...
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: tillie: well Vendors are one major use case
* [11:59] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: that -> what
* [11:59] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: But you need bidirectional communications for that
* [11:59] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: Vendors?
* [11:59] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: that -> using other languages, paradigms, etc
* [11:59] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: The vendors I know dont need any http server functionality.
* [12:00] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: so long as i'm following you correctly, and you're talking about HTTP in and out
* [12:00] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: yes
* [12:00] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: with changing addresses thats not really useful.
* [12:00] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: Tillie, but why would you care, if the object has HTTP out and can report its new address?
* [12:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: keep in mind that http-in replaces email-to-object and xmlrpc
* [12:01] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: I would like to set up a chatserver or something or a central registry etc pp, but when you do a rolling restart those wont be reachable anymore, so what ...
* [12:01] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: email-to-object always works after reboot, the http thingy does not.
* [12:01] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: the vendors we're using for the Relay For Life this year are using http-in
* [12:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It does if you set up the hooks properly
* [12:01] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: So?
* [12:02] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: Then maybe I missed a part.
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So... so!
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: :-)
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I guess, I shouldn't be debating with you about this
* [12:02] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: I think i walked into a curious discussion.
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: you're right; usability problems are keeping it from being used for insteresting shit
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so that's exactly what I wanted to know
* [12:02] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: nods
* [12:03] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: First time I've seen a Linden swear. xP
* [12:03] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: Which: maybe a nice FAQ or example somewhere... and a blog post about it... ^^
* [12:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oh, uh, these are mature office hours
* [12:03] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: I guess I don't follow why you'd want a prim to be the center of your computation instead of an external server
* [12:03] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Haha.
* [12:03] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: definitely not the first time i've seen a linden swear ;)
* [12:04] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: Sahkolihaa, you clearly don't follow our twitter accounts ;)
* [12:04] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Nope. :P
* [12:04] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: rarely uses twitter.
* [12:04] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: Twitter sucks, I use Plurk. :P
* [12:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I should probably wrap this up, it's cutting into important meeting time
* [12:05] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: looking for the http-in wiki page
* [12:05] [[User:Mystical Demina|Mystical Demina]]: i setup a twitter service using OAuth if anyone wants to post to their twitter account from SL
* [12:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: And we know how important meetings are
* [12:05] [[User:Ardy Lay|Ardy Lay]]: Twitter is usually overloaded when I have reason to look there. I get a picture of birds lifting a whale.
* [12:05] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: haha
* [12:05] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: Must be a sign!
* [12:05] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: I thought this was an important meeting... (reminds himself to read the memo more slowly, next time)
* [12:06] [[User:Opensource Obscure|Opensource Obscure]]: i use a virtual world where interesting meetings are often overloaded.
* [12:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Make sure you finish the TPS report before teleporting out!
* [12:06] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: TPS report?
* [12:06] [[User:Opensource Obscure|Opensource Obscure]]: bye everybody!
* [12:06] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: See you OO.
* [12:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Thanks for a great ofice hour, sorry I was so distracted
* [12:06] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: bye opensource!
* [12:06] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: ugh... another TPS report.
* [12:06] [[User:Opensource Obscure|Opensource Obscure]]: bye poppy ^^
* [12:07] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: Would you like a bass or perch with that?
* [12:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Will see you next week! I think -- I may have to cancel
* [12:07] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: sorry i showed up late :P
* [12:07] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: tc Which
* [12:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I leave a signpost up here if I have to cancel
* [12:07] [[User:JB Hancroft|JB Hancroft]]: have a great weekend
* [12:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: you too!

User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2010 Jan 14

2010-01-14T20:05:42Z

Which Linden: Created page with '* [11:01] Sahkolihaa Contepomi: Hi Which. * [11:01] Which Linden: sup y'all * [11:02] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa...'

* [11:01] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Hi Which.
* [11:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: sup y'all
* [11:02] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Getting tired, heh. Your self?
* [11:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I could take a nap
* [11:02] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Hehehe.
* [11:02] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Wow...do people never come to this OH?
* [11:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The usual crowd is not here it seems
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Alright, bat-signal sent out
* [11:05] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Just gave a signal in #opensl too.
* [11:05] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: And wooooah, SL didn't like me high-lighting and moving my curso to the second screen then.
* [11:06] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: cursor*
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hi Ceawlin, nice avatar there
* [11:06] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Hey Ceawlin & Mel
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I love the creativity in non-human avatars I've seen altely
* [11:07] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Thankies. :)
* [11:07] [[User:Melchizedek Blauvelt|Melchizedek Blauvelt]]: heyas
* [11:07] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: The book actually folders up when landing?
* [11:07] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: folds*
* [11:08] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Hey kelly. :p
* [11:08] [[User:Kelly Linden|Kelly Linden]]: hola
* [11:08] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Sort of. :P 13L at Grendel's. Lol.
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So last week we talked about future directions for Second Life, based on M's blog post
* [11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: That seemed like a pretty cool way to start out 2010, want to continue?
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: My main feeling is that we'll want to make SL more immersive.
* [11:10] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Was that future directions, or M's dreams?
* [11:10] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Seems there's been quite a lot of talk regarding that.
* [11:10] [[User:Melchizedek Blauvelt|Melchizedek Blauvelt]]: Will try my best to understand it all, yeah
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Future directions in general
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: M's dreams weren't really specific
* [11:10] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: turns his DD down since his bandwidth seems to be being flooded.
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I honestly wouldn't mind if we switched over to first-person view by default
* [11:11] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: One has to take into account, M's backgroiund is in business, not engineering.
* [11:11] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: That 3D stuff going on at MIT is interesting
* [11:12] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: What 3D stufF?
* [11:12] [[User:Kelly Linden|Kelly Linden]]: I dislike first person view, the viewport is too small to give an immersive feeling in 1st person, it limits the field of vision too much. An over the shoulder view just gives so much more context.
* [11:12] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Another Linden I've never met. Hi Enkidu. :P
* [11:12] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Head-mounted Wii device, relays your head position to the computer
* [11:12] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: No 3D glasses required
* [11:12] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: There uis a YouTube that demos it
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Mojito: so it's like Johnny Chung's thing?
* [11:13] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: That may be it
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Kelly: yeah, the viewport is too small but we should bump up the FOV to fix it
* [11:13] [[User:Kelly Linden|Kelly Linden]]: MS was pretty smart to snatch him up.
* [11:13] [[User:Kelly Linden|Kelly Linden]]: which just the limitations of monitor sizes makes that hard to do without causing a fish-bowl effect.
* [11:13] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I remember a presentation years ago, by a guy with sight in only one eye. He had depth perception. Turns out slight movements of the head are enough to provide depth cues.
* [11:14] [[User:Melchizedek Blauvelt|Melchizedek Blauvelt]]: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgKCrGvShZs] I was thinking about this one
* [11:14] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: hey guys
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hey enki
* [11:14] [[User:Melchizedek Blauvelt|Melchizedek Blauvelt]]: hi Enkidu
* [11:14] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: waves.
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Kelly: yeah....I dunno, maybe I just hate our camera implementation
* [11:15] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: are we still talking about how awesome things will be in ten years?
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: 3rd-person in most games doesn't bother me, I don't know why it does here
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Enkidu : what, you think things will suck in 10 years?
* [11:15] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: There is more than one video where he demonstrates that
* [11:15] [[User:Da5id Kronfeld|Da5id Kronfeld]]: 1st person in most games doesn't bother me, but I cam all around myself here -- 1st person feels confined
* [11:16] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: everything will be awful in ten years. live in the now!
* [11:16] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: I'd like the ability to move my camera around in third person without having to click my mouse or keep the mouse button down, like most 3rd person games do.
* [11:16] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Use a SpaceNavigator. It changes your experience quite a bit
* [11:16] [[User:Kelly Linden|Kelly Linden]]: I get motion sick from that thing
* [11:16] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: It lets you do EXCATLY what you mention
* [11:16] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Yea, I dun think I'd do much in 1st person unless I was spanning 3 widescreens or something. It's like looking down a TP tube. :P
* [11:16] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: You need to turn down its sensitivity a bit. The defaults are too high
* [11:16] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: I was tempted with one of those, but I'm not sure if there's drivers under Linux for it.
* [11:17] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: There are. Robin has them in her repo.
* [11:17] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Ahhh.
* [11:17] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: will be keeping an eye on one of those then.
* [11:17] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: I dunno how well they work though. I've never used one. Just remember from building viewers. >_>
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I used the SN until I blew away my settings and then I was all :( and stopped
* [11:17] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: My SpaceNavigator works fine on Linux
* [11:17] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Torley uses one I think.
* [11:18] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: I remember seeing a really 'happy' (insane?) photo of him holding one on the Wiki some time ago.
* [11:18] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I think any viewer 1.23.5 or later will support it
* [11:18] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: And disable the EDIT-mode use of the SN. It will drive you nuts
* [11:18] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Need SL in a VR cave. That would be pretty cool. :o
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I believe that was the original use case
* [11:19] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: SN works with Emerald too. I use Ubuntu
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'm trying to remember, I seem to recall that there was a company that made a business of making SL-caves
* [11:20] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: I'm using Kubuntu so that's alright then.
* [11:20] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: If it works on Ubuntu it should work on Kubuntu.
* [11:20] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Yup.
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: OK I can't google the company up, whatever
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So yeah anyway, immersion
* [11:22] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I know some serious FlightSim users build RL cockpits, with 3 screens across the front
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I think immersion is not achieved through any perticular engineering acomplishment, it's rather the sum of many tiny details
* [11:23] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I think Q's pland for plugin device support in the next viewer (after 2.0) will allow for lots of interesting things like that.
* [11:23] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Like a Wii sword controller?
* [11:23] [[User:Da5id Kronfeld|Da5id Kronfeld]]: and killed by very tiny flaws
* [11:23] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Wii Sword controller? Hehehe...
* [11:23] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Preciesly
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'll show you my wii sword
* [11:24] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Eep.
* [11:24] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: I think it means different things to different people, too. I mean, I'm not trying to be difficult or anything, but I think it may be difficult/impossible to pin down what "immersion" really is. Difference between ie. people who would rather read a book than watch a movie, or something, mebbe, iunno.
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I think one of the things that SL gets really quite right for its time are the automatic eye and head movements that avatars make.
* [11:25] [[User:Da5id Kronfeld|Da5id Kronfeld]]: (sim border crossings *destroy* SL immersion right now for a lot of uses )
* [11:25] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: One thing I have never liked with my avatar - no natural moving eyes.
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Totally
* [11:25] [[User:Kelly Linden|Kelly Linden]]: I agree with that Da5id
* [11:25] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: And I highly doubt the creator will ever do it.
* [11:25] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Tis perhaps more of a psychological thing than a technical thing.
* [11:25] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I think getting the 3D surround good will be a big help, but it is somewhat compute intensive.
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Natural eye movement is prorably quite difficult
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh yeah definitely agreed mojiro
* [11:25] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: surround SOUND I mean
* [11:25] [[User:Melchizedek Blauvelt|Melchizedek Blauvelt]]: Would for instance a Wacom device also fall under Q's plug-ins?
* [11:26] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: FOr vision-impaired users in particular
* [11:26] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I think so
* [11:26] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: It does not care about the device. It provides a way for 3rd parties to write device drivers.
* [11:26] [[User:Da5id Kronfeld|Da5id Kronfeld]]: does not need to smell any of SL though :)
* [11:26] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: They have a way to inject input events.
* [11:27] [[User:Melchizedek Blauvelt|Melchizedek Blauvelt]]: good grief
* [11:27] [[User:Felowen Dodge|Felowen Dodge]]: So does that mean the trackIR will soon work with sl?
* [11:27] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: is excited about the eye-tracking technology that apple just bought
* [11:27] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I do not think LL plans to write all those device drivers itself - just provide the hooks for others to do it
* [11:28] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: "Avatar" used eye tracking. Though the rig the actors had to wear was kinda unwieldly
* [11:28] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: But remember, the person at home using SL is not turning his head, or barely moving his eyes.
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah... there's precise eye tracking and there's HD eye tracking
* [11:29] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'm moving my eyees a lot!
* [11:29] [[User:Kelly Linden|Kelly Linden]]: I don't turn my head much, unless I'm using multiple monitors (erm, actually I usually am) but my monitors are big enough to require decent eye movement
* [11:29] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: If you had head position tracking, it would pick him up looking away form the screen - and whats the use of that?
* [11:29] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: My av couold throw up the "talk to the hand" gesture when I did that
* [11:29] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Unless you add head-mounted displays. Ow, my neck
* [11:29] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Kelly - same.
* [11:29] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Only recently got a second monitor hooked up.
* [11:29] [[User:Felowen Dodge|Felowen Dodge]]: No, you adjust the settings on the TrackIR. it allows the cam to pan around based on head moevement
* [11:30] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: So the screen will pan your view, but you will not be looking at it because you just turned your head!
* [11:30] [[User:Felowen Dodge|Felowen Dodge]]: I use mine primarily for FSX, but I do use it in other progs and adjusted it works well
* [11:30] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: HMDs aren't cheap. X_x
* [11:30] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: And I dun think there's anything consumer grade out there that's any good, still.
* [11:30] [[User:Felowen Dodge|Felowen Dodge]]: lol you dont move your head that much
* [11:30] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: You use TrackIR with FSX?
* [11:30] [[User:Kelly Linden|Kelly Linden]]: this seems on topic: [http://firstpersontetris.com/]
* [11:30] [[User:Felowen Dodge|Felowen Dodge]]: I do
* [11:31] [[User:Kelly Linden|Kelly Linden]]: first person isn't always better
* [11:31] [[User:Kelly Linden|Kelly Linden]]: ;)
* [11:31] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I was sad that that game didn't have you be inside the tetris piece
* [11:31] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: imagines that would be a fun SL game
* [11:31] [[User:Kelly Linden|Kelly Linden]]: yeah
* [11:31] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: My prob with FSX is finding all the right controls quickly. You could fill up 2 more screens with all the subsidiary panels. (I fly airliners)
* [11:31] [[User:Felowen Dodge|Felowen Dodge]]: oh, I simply use VC the whole time
* [11:32] [[User:Felowen Dodge|Felowen Dodge]]: witht he trackIR it is very easy to get to everything
* [11:32] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I do too, but a bug in the ATR-72 I fly makes the mouse not work on all the overhead knobs.
* [11:32] [[User:Felowen Dodge|Felowen Dodge]]: ah
* [11:32] [[User:Felowen Dodge|Felowen Dodge]]: should be able to rewrite the commands via fsuipc
* [11:32] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Which is a real pain during startup, because you are switching between 3 different panels
* [11:33] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: The Airbus is much easier to start up, being all automated
* [11:33] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I dont know that SL is an appropriate for that level of experience though
* [11:33] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Um, conversation gone a bit off the initial seed here
* [11:33] [[User:Felowen Dodge|Felowen Dodge]]: lol the airbus is simple...I tend to go with the PMDG 747-400, the flight1 mustang, or the carenado 182
* [11:33] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh there you go, tie it back in
* [11:34] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: There are lots of things you COULD do, but that doesnt mean its a good idea
* [11:34] [[User:Felowen Dodge|Felowen Dodge]]: but yeah, sl really would fit with that level of control...for me anyway
* [11:34] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So, moving on past first-person and audio, what else increases immersion?
* [11:34] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I guess control?
* [11:34] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: In general computers have such a poor story as relates to control
* [11:34] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: You're driving a single pixel around your screen
* [11:35] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I end up typing in the wrong box a lot. The overloading of keys is a bit of a probllem
* [11:35] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: PCs need more analog inputs
* [11:35] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Like, if the chat input bar is open, "M" means "M". WIth the bar closed it means "Mouselook"
* [11:35] [[User:Jonathan Yap|Jonathan Yap]]: How about more physics: weather, shadows, wind-driven waves, (beach erosion?)
* [11:35] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Everybody has started typing and at some point hits the "E" key and jumps in the air
* [11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yes...we could add back joints
* [11:36] [[User:Da5id Kronfeld|Da5id Kronfeld]]: I think ( personally ) that *not* over reaching what the technology is cabable of actually increases immersion
* [11:36] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: There are USB controls, like a steering wheel and pedals for cars, that could be used to drive a vehicle in SL
* [11:36] [[User:Jonathan Yap|Jonathan Yap]]: With weather avatars could sweat when it is hot and/or if they are overdressed, etc
* [11:37] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: You know, Mojito, I worked on a viewer that had all alpha keys map to chat
* [11:37] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: We called it "type to chat"
* [11:37] [[User:Felowen Dodge|Felowen Dodge]]: lol @ the visuals of going to an sl beach with a bunch of sweaty people
* [11:37] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: But it was rejected like an infection
* [11:37] [[User:Kelly Linden|Kelly Linden]]: I'd hate that.
* [11:37] [[User:Kelly Linden|Kelly Linden]]: :)
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I still think it could have worked, we just needed to do a better job of remapping functionality
* [11:38] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Is the numpad used for aything special?
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Sorta, it is actually a pretty good way to get around, or used to be
* [11:38] [[User:Kelly Linden|Kelly Linden]]: not all computers have easy access to a numpad
* [11:38] [[User:Kelly Linden|Kelly Linden]]: laptops in particular
* [11:38] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: No use for laptops.
* [11:38] [[User:Jonathan Yap|Jonathan Yap]]: My laptop numpad is awful
* [11:38] [[User:Felowen Dodge|Felowen Dodge]]: usb numpads
* [11:38] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: But that doesnt mean the desk user should be without support for the extra keys he has
* [11:39] [[User:Kelly Linden|Kelly Linden]]: no more than 1 in 100 (at best) users are going to use anything more than the standard setup - a mouse and whatever keyboard comes with their computer
* [11:39] [[User:Questar Utu|Questar Utu]]: SDassdgfff. Why did I play through 35 lines of that tetris link.
* [11:39] [[User:Kelly Linden|Kelly Linden]]: haha sorry questar
* [11:39] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: COnsider that for a lot of the time, chat is what most peoeple do in SL.
* [11:40] [[User:Questar Utu|Questar Utu]]: And I'm not even that good at Tetris..
* [11:40] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: i use a small dekstop keyboard with no numbpad (need more room for other junk on my desktop)
* [11:40] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I think someone showed that not too many people even use the keyboard
* [11:40] [[User:Kelly Linden|Kelly Linden]]: I am an exception to that, chat is <50% of my time in SL, though I'm not sure by how much.
* [11:40] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: That's why we have those little windows for movement
* [11:40] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: I think that efficient, elegant, understated simplicity is far more immersive than over-featurism. Maybe.
* [11:40] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Wow, people use thise?
* [11:40] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: those?
* [11:40] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Oi, I hardly ever use the mouse. :P
* [11:40] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yup!
* [11:41] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: repetitive strain injury on the mouse finger
* [11:41] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: It is good for pointing at what window I want to type in. :P
* [11:41] [[User:Jonathan Yap|Jonathan Yap]]: How do they cam around?
* [11:41] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: There is anothe rlittle panel for the cam
* [11:41] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: w. cam float toll of course ;)
* [11:41] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: tool
* [11:41] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: uses the camera panel at times.
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: not something I'd use myself, but, yeah, that's why it's on by default
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: (or was at one point)
* [11:42] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: It still is.
* [11:42] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: and it seems hardware manufacturers want to get rid of they keyboard alltogether (touch, tablet, etc)
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: There's a picture of Suzanne Vega giving her concert, and she's using it
* [11:42] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Its the first thing I turn off.
* [11:42] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: You can use a SpaceNavigator to move around. Thats kind of fun
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I agree with the direction of removing the keyboard; direct interaciton models are so much better
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Let teh keyboard be used only for typing
* [11:43] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: So you can save the keyboard for chat.
* [11:43] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: lol yes
* [11:44] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: yeah, cant wait for propper speech to text input, coding is going to be so much more fun ;)
* [11:44] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: We should all have big cockpit-like desks with all our interface devices
* [11:44] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: F-keys and ctrl-alt-shift stuff is ok
* [11:44] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Maybe a gesture-capture glove Are those cheap yet?
* [11:44] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Maybe keyboards just need like, multiple-level analog keys with force feedback. XD
* [11:44] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: no but brain reading devices are comming down in price (really) ;)
* [11:44] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Probably a webcam watching your hand is cheaper, if it can be made reliable
* [11:45] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Dont scratch your nose though
* [11:45] [[User:Da5id Kronfeld|Da5id Kronfeld]]: Yeah-- your nose -- that's right
* [11:46] [[User:Kelly Linden|Kelly Linden]]: two webcams w/ fairly bright IR lights can be pretty decent at tracking. but that is more setup than most have.
* [11:46] [[User:Da5id Kronfeld|Da5id Kronfeld]]: Sometimes too much immersion is a bad idea ;)
* [11:46] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: A keyboard with 4 or 6 of those ibm-style eraserhead pointers on it would be pretty cool. All kinds of camera control without having to move my hands.
* [11:46] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: If it catches on, you will see it built into monitor frames. Just like the cam on a laptop
* [11:47] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: can we call the ibm pointer a clit in a pg area?
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Xomeone was just telling me that the trackpoint devices were implicated as a major source of RSI
* [11:48] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I dont care for them. They are not real precise.
* [11:48] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Ionetorus: [http://xkcd.com/243/]
* [11:48] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Neither is the spacenavigator, some to that
* [11:48] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I used to love them, never got tired of them; but the sensitivity had to be turned up all the way for it to be usable
* [11:49] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hey there, Sai, was wondering where you'd been
* [11:49] [[User:Kelly Linden|Kelly Linden]]: I'd always hit them when I was typing
* [11:49] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: The trackpads on laptops are pretty useless too.
* [11:49] [[User:Da5id Kronfeld|Da5id Kronfeld]]: Apple's are pretty good for everyday stuff
* [11:49] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: i think they where better when they where mounted on the side of the screen, and thumb operated, had better control this way
* [11:50] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I bought a tiny USB mouse for mine
* [11:50] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: a tale and a half to tell. No offense to the furries
* [11:50] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: but they stopped making those screen mounted pointing devices in late 90s
* [11:50] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: My Tablet PC is very good for interacting with a flat surface with the pen, but not sure how you could use that in SL.
* [11:51] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: o_O
* [11:51] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: My biggest problem with the trackpad is accidental palage
* [11:51] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: palmage
* [11:51] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: yes
* [11:52] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: WHen using a SpaceNav, I put that under my left hand, mouse in my right, and only need the keyboard rarely. That worked pretty good. It was like learning to walk though
* [11:52] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: some drivers will deactivate the trackpad while typing
* [11:52] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Drivers?
* [11:52] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh drivers
* [11:52] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: had a moment of stupid
* [11:53] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Hehehe.
* [11:53] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: I have one of those every quarter second. :P
* [11:53] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh...rain-BOWS!
* [11:53] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So yeah, the direction I'd like to take controllage would be more interactivity with inwolrd stuff
* [11:54] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I keep on beating this drum, but I'd really like to be able to grab the pillows on the couch and rearrange them
* [11:54] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It doesn't even have to be a physics simulation, we just need to make it easy to code up movement
* [11:54] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: COuld be done, if scripts could detect grabs and turn physics on until you let go. >_>
* [11:54] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: sound activated prim movement with frequency ranges defining X,Y and Z axis movemen ?
* [11:55] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: like a sculpt map, abuse one ormat to do something different
* [11:55] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: format
* [11:56] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: That sounds like you'd have to be a tuvan throat singer to get around
* [11:56] [[User:Kelly Linden|Kelly Linden]]: +1000 to improved interactivity via better script controls.
* [11:56] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: yeah, or i can use my capt. crunch whistle
* [11:58] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah you'll be able to get free L$ with a special box of electronics that you hold up to your computer mic
* [11:58] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: The ability to sculpt and paint textures on sculpts in the viewer would be nice, too. As well as the ability to programatically change points in an object's sculpt map.
* [11:58] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: was there not a company doing pretty decent web cam controller for movement for use w sl ?
* [11:58] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Definitely agreed Ceawlin, better biuld tools would be amazing
* [11:59] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: maybe a year a afo or so
* [11:59] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: The SN tried to do Edit of prims, but it is really too sensitive.
* [11:59] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: SWculpting with a 3D pen would be cool
* [11:59] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: *sculpting
* [11:59] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: If a script could directly edit its object's sculpt map, some seriously cool stuff could happen. Deformable objects....
* [12:00] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Ah, back to recognizing hand gestures....
* [12:00] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Molding clay
* [12:00] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Being able to sculpt with a pen in general would be neat.
* [12:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hm yeah..... therea re modeling apps for that
* [12:00] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: Although that is possible with brushes.
* [12:00] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: But doing it in 3D would be the big differentce.
* [12:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: such as [http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/index?id=13565063&siteID=123112]
* [12:01] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Building in general, using hand gestures.
* [12:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: But yeah, in-situ building is totlaly the whole purpose and coal
* [12:01] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: If we could do it in-world though, several people could collaborate on them. Many people could be sculpting the same thing at the same time.
* [12:01] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: is looking forward to having Blender 2.5.
* [12:01] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: sitting in a diff app and doing modelling is very non social
* [12:02] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: but might also extend this functionality to build photoshop inside sl ;)
* [12:02] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Yea, and the socialization is where the immersion comes from for most folk, I 'spect.
* [12:02] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I do not see how SLs editing could hope to approach the versatility of the special purpose tools though
* [12:02] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: I think Blender may become more popular with the release of 2.5. It's having a new interface written.
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Mojito: maybe through plugins?
* [12:02] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: That could work.
* [12:02] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: That's an idea.
* [12:03] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: But the learning curve on those things is awful. It would be for the serious designers.
* [12:03] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: photoshop on a virtual desktop prim
* [12:03] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: ?
* [12:03] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: A new interface for Blender would help a lot
* [12:03] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Now we need a way to import the results into SL
* [12:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: :-)
* [12:03] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Yea, being able to target an X drawable onto a prim face would be mighty cool, even if insecure. XD
* [12:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Well hey folks, it's a bit over time
* [12:03] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I mean, for more than a single sculptie
* [12:03] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: well, who was it that was working on running sl inside blender?
* [12:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I should probably run, but thanks for the engaging discussion
* [12:04] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: I think that was..... Aimee?
* [12:04] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: See you next week Which. :)
* [12:04] [[User:Da5id Kronfeld|Da5id Kronfeld]]: Bye Which -- thanks
* [12:04] [[User:Sahkolihaa Contepomi|Sahkolihaa Contepomi]]: will come for now on.
* [12:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Thank you!
* [12:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Chers
* [12:04] [[User:Ceawlin Steamweaver|Ceawlin Steamweaver]]: Thanks, and see y'all later. Must get back to work. :P
* [12:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Cheers
* [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]

Message Queue Evaluation Notes

2010-01-13T01:27:05Z

Which Linden: /* RabbitMQ */ Adding in C++ client.

= Summary and Overview =

One of the infrastructure tools that we've identified for the future internal architecture of Second Life is messaging. Message queuing systems allow systems that send messages to not have to worry about how they will be delivered, and allow consumers of messages to gather whichever ones interest them, at their own pace.

Ideally we'd have a completely scaleable system that clients could treat as singular black box. It would act as a well-known cluster to which senders or receivers of messages could connect, and be able to communicate asynchronously to or from anywhere else on the grid. Unfortunately it seems as though this dream, like so many others, is unattainable by any currently available software. We investigated around 15 open source systems that were explicitly designed for message queueing and found that none of them achieved this ideal.

Our use cases mostly involve very large numbers of queues; the smallest number we're even considering is double the number of concurrent users. Our largest use case would be of the same order of magnitude as registered users. This means that we have to plan for millions, and probably tens or hundreds of millions, of message queues, since we want whatever system we choose to last us until then. Pretty much all of the message queue systems we investigated are intended to maximize message throughput rather than number of consumers. The clustering that they implement mainly serves as additional horsepower to deliver more message throughput. In particular the clustering we've seen replicates all state to every machine in the cluster, meaning that the cluster cannot add queues beyond the capacity of an individual node. In order to have a solution that scales in terms of number of queues, each node will have to be able to contain a subset of the global state -- it actually seems as though such a message system would want to be coupled with a distributed storage system.

In any case, given that we expect that we'd have to develop our own queue scaling solution that involves partitioning, which may or may not be a task we are interested in taking on, the strongest candidates are
RabbitMQ and Apache QPID. Both are mature products that support AMQP (though they support different versions). Both have strong vendor support, and both have good single-host performance numbers. There is some more investigation to be done -- we'd like to know their true maximum capacity when clustered, to evaluate whether it's worth clustering at all, given that we have to implement partitioning ourselves anyway.

We're unfortunately pretty far from having closed the case on which technology to choose, or even if we can use any of these at all. Investigation will continue!

== Criteria ==

Questions
# Support for consuming messages in our two main languages, Python and C++
# Support for producing them in all of our main languages (or, e.g., an HTTP gateway)
# What's the raw message rate that a single server can handle at different message sizes (e.g. 1 byte, 128 bytes, 1K, 128K)?
# What are the latency figures for these message rates?
# What are the server's clustering characteristics?
#* HA/failover
#* scalability for message quantity
#* scalability for number of clients/queues
# What about cross-colo traffic? Does it do SSL, does it need tunneling, is it designed to deal with interrupted communications?
# How do the health of the protocol standard, the software, and the community look?
# Can we engage people on support and development contracts if necessary?
# Is it possible to set up persistent queues, where undelivered messages will survive server restarts? For some interesting perspectives, see [http://www.rockstarprogrammer.org/post/2008/oct/04/what-matters-asynchronous-job-queue/ "What Matters in an Asynchronous Job Queue"] and [http://groups.google.com/group/beanstalk-talk/browse_thread/thread/e8d1a6ea80f0d57a this discussion on persistence and failure scenarios].

The major use cases that we believe could be implemented with message queues are these:
* IM
* blue box notifications in the viewer
* group notices
* group chat
* group votes
* presence notifications
* anything else that currently is an [http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/ImprovedInstantMessage ImprovedInstantMessage]
* friendship
* details of registration such as initial inventory
* requests to regenerate map tiles

Many other uses that we haven't put up there would arise when developing various applications. Note that we '''do not''' intend to expose the message queue system directly to the viewer; we would use it instead for behind-the-scenes implementation of the above use cases. Discussing the protocol by which the viewer sends and receives messages with the server is far outside the scope of this research.

=== Group Chat Use Case ===
The primary use case that we examined was that of group chat. This is the most obvious use that we'd put message queues to, and it's also one of the only use cases up there that is a current pain point for Residents. Here are some numbers describing group chat, which were captured at 11am one day:

* online residents: ~68,000
* number of group chats: 131953
* number of memberships: 629637
* avg number of groups/resident: 9.3
* average group size: 4.8
* most online members in a group: 785
* stdev group size: 13.1
* group churn/second: 23.2
* membership churn/second: 260
* messages sent/second: 8.6

'''Please note:''' this data was measured some time ago, and every value you see has increased by today, and will continue to grow for the forseeable future. It was not enough for us to pick a technology that could just barely handle the current load; we have to pessimistically assume that whatever we pick will be used for many years hence, and will therefore have to deal with at least an order of magnitude more of everything.

Our minimum hurdle for a platform is 4x the above values, and ideally could horizontally scale nearly infinitely across the most important axes to us: number of group chats, number of memberships, and messages/second.

Group churn represents the number of groups added or removed from the system every second. In an AMQP-based system a "group" would be added when someone binds the first queue to the a key representing the group's id, and the group would be dropped when the last binding to the key is removed. In any routing system of this nature, there will be two data structures that are the inverse of each other: one is queuename->keys table and the other is the keys->queuenames table. Group churn would primarily affect the keys->queuenames table.

Membership churn comes from agents joining and leaving groups, and is indirectly related to group churn. There is vastly more membership churn because each agent is in roughly 9 groups -- one agent logs in for 15 seconds and then logs out, that's 18 points of "churn". In an AMQP-based system this churn would be visible as bindings being added and dropped, which would thus affect the queuename->keys table.

Both types of churn are substantially higher than messaging rate. Even if we successfully implement a feature that will allow residents to opt out of joining group chat on login, I'd guess that we'd see at most a 75% reduction in churn as a result, which would still leave membership churn nearly an order of magnitude larger than messages sent.

The group size metrics are interesting because it implies that most groups are pretty small. The downside is we have roughly 2 unique groups for every concurrent resident, so our group system has to scale along that axis very well.

Overall, these numbers are a real whack upside the head because they reveal that for our particular use case, we worry far more about number of queues, and ability to handle high churn, than we do about message delivery rate. Most of the benchmarks regarding the software we evaluated optimize for message rate rather than churn or quantity of queues.

Note that [http://gojko.net/2009/03/16/qcon-london-2009-upgrading-twitter-without-service-disruptions/ Twitter has a similar set of requirements] (complete with startlingly low message rate), though they don't have such tight latency requirements as we do.

= Scaling =

Given that we haven't found any system that provides seamless scaling along the axis of queues, we have come up with some designs for how the system could be partitioned. Any partition scheme is a bit of a downer because then the clients have to know about the partitioning.

The best way to partition is probably to partition on routing key. When a client wants to receive messages for a routing key, or when a sender wants to send to a routing key, the first thing it does is ask a redirector which slice to talk to. The system would look like:

[[Image:Message_queue_partition_unclustered.png]]

This system has the property that each client will be talking to as many slices as routing keys of interest (proportional, anyhow). This may be acceptable for an application where there's only a finite number of routing keys that any particular client may be interested in (such as group chat, where there's an upper limit on the number of groups a resident may be in).

We could cut down on the sheer quantity of connections by using clustering to reduce the number of slices. The messaging technologies we looked at support clustering in a way that would allow us to create clusters of 2-3 nodes that have roughly 1.5-2 times the quantity of queues as a single node. This would be a more complex system than not using clustering at all, but it would reduce the number of slices, and thus connections, by a factor of 1.5-2, which may be important.

[[Image:Message_queue_partition_clustered.png]]

The clustered partition scheme isn't fundamentally different than the unclustered partition scheme, it's just a constant-factor optimization. However, if the cluster added high-availability properties (such as being able to continue running even when one node fails), then it would be worth it.

= Currently Available Software =

== AMQ Protocol ==

AMQP is a developing standard that is aimed pretty squarely at our use cases: high-performance, flexible, message routing and delivery. The standard is being iterated upon and is not finalized yet. This is a risk factor because it's a moving target and all current editions are mutually incompatible -- the 0-10 edition is nontrivially different from 0-8, and I've read some rumors that the next edition removes or changes some of the core concepts in a dramatic way.

We believe that AMQP is the appropriate standard for our use cases; therefore we investigated the AMQP servers much more heavily. Here's [http://blogs.digitar.com/jjww/2009/01/rabbits-and-warrens/ a decent example] of how to apply AMQP to a particular use case (with emphasis on Rabbit).

* [https://launchpad.net/txamqp Twisted AMQP], a 0-8 and 0-9 Twisted Python client
* [http://hopper.squarespace.com/blog/2008/6/21/build-your-own-amqp-client.html Build your Own AMQP Client]

=== RabbitMQ ===
[http://www.rabbitmq.com/ Rabbit Home]

RabbitMQ is already installed in our image and is currently being deployed by the data warehousing team (Ivan in particular) to handle syslog message delivery.

# Support for consuming messages in our two main languages, Python and C++?
#* Yes, many python clients and [http://code.google.com/p/carrot-rabbit/ carrot-rabbit]
# Support for producing them in all of our main languages (or e.g. an HTTP gateway)
#* Yes, they have HTTP and Stomp gateways.
# What's the raw message rate that a single server can handle at different message sizes (e.g. 1 byte, 128 bytes, 1K, 128K)?
#* Not investigated because widespread reports indicate that this number is very high; this will not be a bottleneck.
# What are the latency figures for these message rates?
#* Latency is in tens of microseconds.
# What are the server's clustering characteristics?
#* HA/failover
#** Weak. If clustered, the cluster behaves poorly when nodes go away, until their data is restored; see [http://lists.rabbitmq.com/pipermail/rabbitmq-discuss/2009-February/003338.html]. The developers suggested setting up two queues on two hosts and doing client-side duplicate removal, but this seems like we'd be doing work that the message queue system should be doing for us.
#* scalability for message quantity
#** Untested but theoretically clustering improves this.
#* scalability for number of clients/queues
#** Not supported. Currently a single Rabbit node will support up to 250,000 queues before consuming all available memory. If clustered with a second host, the second host will have 800 MB of its memory consumed as well even though it's not doing any work. This is because all hosts in a cluster contain a complete copy of the routing tables. The data structures required for queues themselves are stored on the first host, and consume the other 1200 MB available. This implies that if queues were evenly added to both hosts, we could probably get up to around 400,000 queues total. We'd like to test that hypothesis.
# What about cross-colo traffic?
#* Not if hosts in a cluster are cross-colo from each other. There's [http://hopper.squarespace.com/blog/2008/6/22/introducing-shovel-an-amqp-relay.html a plugin called shovel] that is explicitly designed for cross-colo situations, though. However, if clustering doesn't support the number of queues we want, there's little reason to worry about clusters that span colos. The wire protocol is believed to be robust against flaky connections; it's hard to test that though.
# Does it do SSL, does it need tunneling, is it designed to deal with interrupted communications?
#* [http://www.rabbitmq.com/api-guide.html#ssl Supports SSL], however this appears to be both outside of the spec and a bit of a hack. AMQP as a whole doesn't yet have an ssl story, so we'd have to go outside the spec to achieve security.
# How do the health of the protocol standard, the software, and the community look?
#* Strong. Rabbit in particular has a relatively strong community -- ~500 messages per month on mailing list and key developers respond frequently.
# Can we engage people on support and development contracts if necessary?
#* Yes, we already have contacts with them and have already gotten enhancements.
# Is it possible to set up persistent queues, where undelivered messages will survive server restarts?
#* Yes. These are not replicated.

Notes:
* ~5000 lines of code (i.e. not many places to hide bugs)
* Queues can fill up available memory if clients can't consume non-immediate messages quickly enough (immediate messages get discarded if a client can't consume them).
* [http://forum.trapexit.org/mailinglists/viewtopic.php?p=42890&sid=cb78a92ab50adefbf60e3770c0ba7e9b RabbitMQ Performance Testing and Troubles]
* Even in clustered configuration, queues only reside on a single machine.
* [http://hopper.squarespace.com/ Blog oriented towards Rabbit]
* http://everburning.com/news/tag/amqp/ Ruby-oriented but examples are pretty clear
* http://www.somic.org/d/samovskiy-amqp-rabbitmq-cohesiveft.pdf
* http://somic.org/2008/11/11/using-rabbitmq-beyond-queueing/
* http://www.lshift.net/blog/category/lshift-sw/rabbitmq/
* In our tests, if you create a bunch of auto-delete queues (~100), the rabbit server becomes unresponsive for 2 minutes after you remove the clients (presumably because the server starts deleting the queues when you remove the clients). We generally have to restart the server. This may be problematic in production; we should generate a test case that repros this.
* py-amqplib requires Python >2.4
* Collected data: http://spreadsheets.google.com/a/lindenlab.com/ccc?key=p0_PzEgG1YZeKbg_y4n1nFg
* Restarting individual hosts in a cluster is seamless -- it totally comes back together without any extra work, yay.
* Rabbit (and mnesia) is very sensitive to DHCP/DNS failures. We had a DHCP failure on our host, and it corrupted everything, leading to rogue beam processes and messed up mnesia files. Had to nuke everything.
* HA by creating multiple queues on multiple hosts: http://www.nabble.com/Re:-Q-replication-anxiety-p21953124.html
* Discussing huge numbers of queues: http://lists.rabbitmq.com/pipermail/rabbitmq-discuss/2009-February/003431.html
* Discussion about what happens when one node in a cluster goes away, and how it's less than ideal: http://lists.rabbitmq.com/pipermail/rabbitmq-discuss/2009-February/003338.html

=== Apache QPID/Red Hat MRG ===
http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/qpid/Index
http://www.redhat.com/mrg/

QPID is sort of a compilation project from Apache. They have a pile of clients, and two brokers that each support different versions of the AMQP standard. The C++ broker appears to be where the good stuff is at. Installing it was not difficult -- it only required a few additional Boost libraries to be installed.

# Support for consuming messages in our two main languages, Python and C++
#* Yes, comes bundled with clients in both.
# Support for producing them in all of our main languages (or e.g. an HTTP gateway)
#* No, only python and C++.
# What's the raw message rate that a single server can handle at different message sizes (e.g. 1 byte, 128 bytes, 1K, 128K)?
#* Untested; again, not likely to be a bottleneck.
# What are the latency figures for these message rates?
#* Untested, it comes with a perftest tool that we should run.
# What are the server's clustering characteristics?
#* HA/failover
#** [http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/qpid/queue+state+replication Queue Replication] could be used in conjunction with [http://qpid.apache.org/connection-url-format.html client failover] to implement HA queues. Untested.
#* scalability for message quantity
#** Unknown.
#* scalability for number of clients/queues
#** The C++ broker tops out at around 500,000 queues per host. We haven't yet determined whether this number can be increased by [http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/qpid/Using+Broker+Federation clustering/federation].
# What about cross-colo traffic? Does it do SSL, does it need tunneling, is it designed to deal with interrupted communications?
#* Same as rabbit; these questions are properties of AMQP.
# How do the health of the protocol standard, the software, and the community look?
#* Relatively small community, though active. 721 messages to qpid-dev list in December 2008, though 90% seem to be JIRA spam; only 71 to qpid-users.
# Can we engage people on support and development contracts if necessary?
#* Red Hat supports a version called MRG -- unknown whether we could get them to help us use it on Debian. ;-)
# Is it possible to set up persistent queues, where undelivered messages will survive server restarts?
#* Yes.

Notes:
* MRG is based on QPID, per [http://www.redhat.com/docs/en-US/Red_Hat_Enterprise_MRG/1.0/html/Messaging_Installation_Guide/sect-Messaging_Installation_Guide-Installing_RHM-Installing_RHM_on_RHEL5.html this page].
* Client libs: C++, Java, Ruby, Python, C#. Only the C++ client appears to have any documentation.
* http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/qpid/Documentation <-- this link was surprisingly hard to find
* Python client is annoying to use. Before even getting started you have to set an environment variable pointing at the spec (<code>export AMQP_SPEC=/tmp/qpid/qpid-M4/specs/amqp.0-10.xml</code>) and modify the spec file itself to point at the DTD because relative paths don't work for some reason. The code is written poorly; no comments, run-on functions, uses long-deprecated things like raise "string" everywhere. Also, it's slow as hell starting up and at runtime. Finding another 0-10 compatible python client would be important.

=== OpenAMQ ===
http://www.openamq.org/
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* http://www.openamq.org/doc:user-3-advanced
* Supports HA via primary/secondary failover, EXCEPT "What we do not attempt to do includes: ... The handling of persistent messages or transactions in any way.....Replication of exchanges, queues, bindings, or messages between servers. All server-side state much be recreated by applications when they fail over."
* HA support is mutually exclusive from federation support.
* Supports federation; we'd want to use the "locator" federation type.
* Seems immature; few docs, not a strong community -- however, it's actually pretty old.
* Implements a subset of AMQP 0.9
* http://amqp.wdfiles.com/local--files/deleted:library:cluster/clustering.pdf
* Java centric, no bindings for other languages we love to use.

== XMPP ==

=== ejabberd ===
http://www.ejabberd.im/
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Clients: http://www.jabber.org/web/Clients

* Widely deployed and super-popular.
* XMPP seems to not be the best fit for generic applications -- it seems that it could at best solve the group-chat and person-to-person IM cases, if at all.

==== AMP Extension ====
http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0079.html
Message queue extension, available for ejabberd via [https://support.process-one.net/browse/EJAB-449 this patch].

This extension adds:
* Reliable data transport -- the sender requires notification (positive and/or negative) of message delivery.
* Time-sensitive messages -- the message is valid only until a certain date and time.
* Transient messages -- the message should not be stored offline for later delivery.

The AMP extension is immature and has no client support -- we'd be going it ourselves if we wanted to use that. We might decide that we don't need the AMP extension's semantics.

==== PubSub Extension ====

http://www.ejabberd.im/mod_pubsub-usage

http://ppolv.wordpress.com/2007/11/28/managing-a-jabber-pubsub-service/

Doesn't seem to be client support for this, but it's probably better than AMP extension client support and I haven't looked especially hard yet.

== Stomp ==
Products that support primarily the Stomp protocol.

http://stomp.codehaus.org/Protocol

Stomp is a message passing scheme that is tremendously simple. It kinda looks like HTTP, but it's actually even simpler. The simplicity is both a strength and a weakness.
* Human-readable
* Requires null-termination of message bodies; the spec implies that it's OK to include nulls in the message body if a content-length header is included, but if the header is not supplied nulls are not acceptable. [http://cometdaily.com/2008/10/08/scalable-real-time-web-architecture-part-1-stomp-comet-and-message-queues/ This article] and subsequent discussion is interesting.
* Underspecified header syntax means implementations might differ w.r.t. all-dashes, spaces between : and header body, capitalization, etc.

There are stomp clients written in nearly every language; since the protocol is so simple it seems as if people write new clients whenever they encounter even the slightest problem with someone else's client.
* stomp.py -- nicely written, but seems to be just barely maintained by a guy who doesn't really use it any more. Its error reporting sucks (prints java exceptions to stdout, doesn't give any feedback to python program). But it works!

=== ActiveMQ ===
http://activemq.apache.org/

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Related Jira : <jira>DEV-19958</jira>

* HA via master/slave failover built-in: http://activemq.apache.org/masterslave.html It's not great, but it's better than "you lost all your shit!"
* Does not support AMQP (how did we miss this earlier?)
* Clustering built-in with autodiscovery. It's very nice to start up activemq on two machines and see them find each other automagically.
* Broker fails after opening 700 queues on a node due to too many open files -- apparently it has a tempfile for each queue, and an open file for each JAR (of which there are 124!), and 60 miscellaneous filehandles. The number of open files does not decrease when the client quits. Some googling implies that there are numerous bugs in ActiveMQ relating to leaked filehandles.
* Even if you cluster two nodes together, each created subscription opens a new filehandle on both nodes in the cluster! This means that the total number of queues creatable in a clustered system is very small.

=== Sprinkle ===

http://www.thuswise.org/sprinkle/index.html

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* Consumes 100% of CPU when idle.
* Requires an external process to create a new directory for each queue -- no way to create queues by talking to the server (unless you hook up a demon listening to a special meta-queue for messages to create new queues...an approach that is appealing in its purity, but...no)

== JMS ==

JMS is a Java API for asynchronous messaging. In a charming bit of java-centrism it specifies the API that a java program sees, but not a wire protocol or anything like that; I can only assume that each client is intended to develop its own custom wire protocol for talking to the broker, but there isn't much information about this out there. Some of the clients that support Stomp or AMQP also support some subset of JMS, and presumably the JMS API simply uses Stomp or AMQP as the wire protocol. The development of the wire protocols have been influenced somewhat by the needs of JMS.

=== OpenMQ ===

https://mq.dev.java.net/about.html

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* Very java-specific.
* This is the free version of [http://www.sun.com/software/products/message_queue/index.xml Java System Message Queue]
* JMS only.

== Other ==
Products that have their own protocol. These are generally less interesting to us because they are already at a disadvantage relative to implementations of a particular protocol in terms of community size, possibility of paid support, and being able to replace them with a different implementation if the need arises. However, we still take these into consideration in the hopes of finding a diamond in the rough.

=== IRC ===

* [http://searchirc.com/top100.php Top 100 IRC Rooms]. Looks like the largest tops out near 3400 members.
* [http://www.xs4all.nl/~carlo17/irc/run-irc.htm Carlo Wood's notes on IRC]. Of note is the fact that IRC does not guarantee message order.
* [http://irc.pages.de/research.html Interesting and discouraging overview of chat protocol scalability]
* Not designed for anything other than group chat or P2P IM; we'd have to come up with something else for our other use cases.
* No offline storage of messages.
* Doesn't have a great [http://www.irchelp.org/irchelp/rfc/chapter2.html#c2_2 character set story]; content would have to be encoded.

=== PSYC ===

http://about.psyc.eu/

* Just gauging off the [http://about.psyc.eu/Roadmap roadmap], doesn't seem to have "arrived".

=== Gearman ===

http://www.danga.com/gearman/

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* "Gearman is a system to farm out work to other machines, dispatching function calls to machines that are better suited to do work, to do work in parallel, to load balance lots of function calls, or to call functions between languages."
* Not really what we're looking for.

=== Amazon SQS ===
http://aws.amazon.com/sqs/

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* [http://notes.variogr.am/post/67710296/replacing-amazon-sqs-with-something-faster-and-cheaper Performance 40x slower than rabbitmq]
* External hosting raises troubling questions about security/privacy, and the ability of our operations team to handle failure cases (i.e. if SQS goes down we are SOL unless we separately maintain our own compatible farm of servers, in which case we gain little in operational savings)
* External hosting adds non-negligible latency

=== beanstalkd ===
http://xph.us/software/beanstalkd/

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* Client libs in Python (2.5), PHP, Perl, but not C++.
* No persistent queues, but one of the touted features is preservation of queue state between server restarts/crashes.
* Here's the protocol doc: http://github.com/kr/beanstalkd/tree/v1.1/doc/protocol.txt?raw=true
* Immature
* Works only with Python-2.6, which is two versions above the installed version on etch.

=== Peafowl ===
http://code.google.com/p/peafowl/
(A light weight server for reliable distributed message passing.)

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* Uses memcache protocol, which is not a message queueing protocol. The argument that we should be using a message queueing protocol rather than a key-value protocol is convincing to us. The impedance mismatch between what the memcache protocol is trying to do and what we want out of a message queue system is quite large and it seems our effort is better spent trying to find something that is designed for the purpose.

=== Starling ===
http://rubyforge.org/projects/starling/

Persistent Message Queue, in Ruby though

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=== SMTP ===

http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2821.txt

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* Very mature protocol
* Many vendors
* Huge community
* Persistent queues only - no support for transient queues
* No built-in CreateQueue/DeleteQueue operations
* No support for transactional messages
* Many failure modes will result in multiple delivery of messages

=== Zero MQ ===

http://www.zeromq.org/

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* From above page: ØMQ is already very fast. We're getting 13.4 microseconds end-to-end latencies and up to 4,100,000 messages a second today.
* Papers on Tests - http://www.zeromq.org/area:results
* Not based on [http://amqp.org AMQP] and has an AMQP plugin.
* Chat example: http://www.zeromq.org/code:examples-chat
* Python module's API is currently much simpler when compared to original C++ API. The difference is that Python module doesn't allow for full control of ØMQ threading as C++ does. Instead, the Python module extension creates single I/O thread that can be accessed from a single application thread. This doesn't allow for seamless scaling on multicore boxes. However, it is our intent to expose full ØMQ API via Python in the future.
* <b>NOTE</b>: It looks like the python 0mq extension is broken. The sending and receiving functions work only when they are performed within the same Python process (probably has something to do with the above note about the module API in Python)
* <b>UPDATE to NOTE</b>: Python extension works as advertised using the trunk version. Using this, it was possible to generate 100000 queues, for 4 'clients', and the zmq_server did not bog down the CPU (in fact it hovered around 2%)
* Java wrapper does not work as it fails at <code>System.loadLibrary()</code>

= Reading/Related Links =

* [http://jeremy.zawodny.com/blog/archives/010511.html Open Source Queueing and Messaging Systems?]
* [http://www.cse.ohio-state.edu/~narravul/papers/subramoni_whpcf08.pdf MQP Benchmarking]
* [http://lists.rabbitmq.com/pipermail/rabbitmq-discuss/2008-June/001290.html AMQP vs XMPP/RabbitMQ vs ejabberd]

User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2010 Jan 7

2010-01-07T20:05:21Z

Which Linden: Created page with '* [11:01] Morgaine Dinova: What's your specialist topic, Enki? * [11:02] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Which! * [11:02] [[User:Enkidu ...'

* [11:01] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: What's your specialist topic, Enki?
* [11:02] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hiya Which!
* [11:02] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: hey which
* [11:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hey
* [11:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: happy new year!
* [11:03] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hi Latif!
* [11:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: welcome to the future!
* [11:03] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Happy New Year to everyone :-)))
* [11:03] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hello all! happy new year to you too guys!
* [11:03] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: The future is probably ants, so Enki has a head start :P
* [11:04] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yey for the future, and second life hd!
* [11:04] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: just watch where you step
* [11:04] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
* [11:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: whoa, insane av, man!
* [11:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: let me introduce Inoshiro here
* [11:05] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which and Enki, do either of you know what M was talking about, when he said "SLHD"? I mean in terms of tech, not of marketting.
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: it is his first week
* [11:05] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: jumps up and down and demands Linden bears
* [11:05] [[User:Inoshiro Linden|Inoshiro Linden]]: Hi folks!
* [11:05] [[User:Jonathan Yap|Jonathan Yap]]: hi Inoshiro
* [11:05] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hi again Inoshiro, how goes?
* [11:05] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: hey inoshiro!
* [11:05] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: Hi Inoshiro :)
* [11:05] [[User:Inoshiro Linden|Inoshiro Linden]]: It goes well.
* [11:05] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hello Inoshiro :)
* [11:05] [[User:Melchizedek Blauvelt|Melchizedek Blauvelt]]: Heya Ino
* [11:06] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: was that in M's recent blog post?
* [11:06] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Dahlia's having a fit, so hurry up with those bears please :-))
* [11:06] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lolol
* [11:06] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Enki: yes
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I suggested to Inoshiro that office hours were a good way to hear interesting stuff, so let's try not to play "stuff the newb's head with nonsense" :-P
* [11:06] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Enkidu, we know it's marketing ;)
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: righto, bear coming up
* [11:07] [[User:Inoshiro Linden|Inoshiro Linden]]: From what I gather creating a bear should be my highest priority project for the next few months.
* [11:07] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: Bears are important Which :)
* [11:07] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Inoshiro, what are you going to do
* [11:07] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: accepted your inventory offer.
* [11:07] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: tyvm :)
* [11:07] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: i don't have a bear yet
* [11:08] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: Bears are important Enkidu
* [11:08] [[User:Inoshiro Linden|Inoshiro Linden]]: accepted your inventory offer.
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: it took me a few months to make mine
* [11:08] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hehe
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but I wasn't really holding office hours yet then
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: as for SLHD, I have no idea either
* [11:08] [[User:Jonathan Yap|Jonathan Yap]]: raises his hand in supplication for a bear
* [11:08] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: oh i see
* [11:09] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: i actually haven't had time to read this blog post yet
* [11:09] [[User:Jonathan Yap|Jonathan Yap]]: accepted your inventory offer.
* [11:09] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: but: "When I set my draw distance out 10 years and envision Second Life then, here is what I see:"
* [11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I presume it's just a catchall phrase for "bettar stuff in SL"
* [11:09] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: is that the one where he embraces open source and talks about the walls coming down?
* [11:09] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yeah
* [11:09] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: SL™
* [11:10] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Well Inoshiro, Which is right that you'll hear a lot of interesting stuff in OHs, because the tech community has a ton of tech experience. But we also take no prisoners, and when LL does crap things, you'll need a thick skin to take the heat. :-)
* [11:10] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: oops
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: the url is https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/features/blog/2010/01/03/happy-new-year-looking-backlooking-ahead
* [11:10] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: and "fix search" and viewr2 in tw months
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: also, worth noting that office hour transcripts are saved to the web, visible forever and all time
* [11:10] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Aye
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Which_Linden
* [11:11] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: gave you LL (TM).
* [11:11] [[User:Melchizedek Blauvelt|Melchizedek Blauvelt]]: accepted your inventory offer.
* [11:11] [[User:Leslie Scribe|Leslie Scribe]]: accepted your inventory offer.
* [11:11] [[User:Fael Illyar|Fael Illyar]]: accepted your inventory offer.
* [11:12] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so that seems like a reasonable topic: where do we see SL in 10 years?
* [11:12] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: And those transcripts ensure that both LL and community don't talk tripe, as our words are forever recorded. :-)
* [11:12] [[User:Melchizedek Blauvelt|Melchizedek Blauvelt]]: good grief, I got one bear, now I have t collect them all too
* [11:12] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: doesn't stop me, Morgaine
* [11:12] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hahaha
* [11:12] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: lol
* [11:12] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hey Aimee
* [11:12] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: I've never noticed that stop anyone ever before
* [11:12] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which is joking, Ino :-)
* [11:12] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: hi :)
* [11:12] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: Hi :)
* [11:12] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hiya Aimee :-)
* [11:13] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Happy New Year :-)
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hi
* [11:13] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: Happy New Decade :)
* [11:13] [[User:Fael Illyar|Fael Illyar]]: Hello everyone :)
* [11:13] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: that's a great topic, as long as we adorn it with more tech than M did.
* [11:14] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: i'd love to see facial expression to avatar mapping
* [11:14] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: 10 years from know i hope sl is much more open, APIs for integrating with the outside world, interop between the worlds, amazing graphics for full immersion
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh man, yes, enkidu
* [11:15] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: yep, right now we have it the other way round
* [11:15] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: we tend to pull weird facial expressions as the avatar won't do what we want
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: SL has always been a platform supportive of different modes of interaction
* [11:15] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: The first thing to note is that the environment of the next decade will be a multi-world one, not just SL. So you have to frame everything in a multi-world context, not just in terms of SL alone.
* [11:15] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: also gesture mapping
* [11:15] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: LOL Aimee
* [11:16] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: and on the policy front: allow SL to be a brave new world, don't confine the rules and try to make it a replia of RL
* [11:16] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: replica even
* [11:16] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Latif++
* [11:16] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: gesture mapping?
* [11:16] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: er
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I think that ties in with the interop thing -- hosting providers will always be liable to some extent
* [11:16] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: gesticulation mapping?
* [11:16] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: The virtual world is not the USA. You need to get over that.
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: There needs to be a way to get over it without becoming outlaws. :-)
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Though that would be very Snow Crash
* [11:17] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: it's about emphasis
* [11:18] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: "Hiro Protagonist jacked in to the illegal undernet and bought a sparkly necklace"
* [11:18] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: enable teleporting to Morgaine's OpenSIm Casino hosted in the Bahamas?
* [11:18] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'm a little less certain about M's statements about feeling the texture of the chicken
* [11:18] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: sorry, i'm perhaps being too specific
* [11:18] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: oops forgot the winky ;)
* [11:18] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: (if that's not a euphemism, then I'm a monkeys uncle)
* [11:19] [[User:Jonathan Yap|Jonathan Yap]]: Perhaps in 10 years prims will have more attributes, like temperature, so you could boil water over a burner
* [11:19] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i think M's too focused on making a replica of the RL with liks to your indentity, real name, facebook whatever
* [11:19] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: there needs to be room for both
* [11:20] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: somehow I think all the social media sites will become passe' by 2020
* [11:20] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: get your lawyers to work FOR you by demanding provider immunity. There's a lot of precedent for it in ISPs anyway, and safe harbour provisions even exist in the DMCA right now. Instead, you're doing the exact opposite and assuming responsibility. That doesn't scale, and you know it.
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah, tbh it's limiting if you don't have the ability to have real names and connections with your real life
* [11:20] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: I know a hell of a lot of people that came to SL as a place to freely explore themself, more so than the world
* [11:20] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: but equally there are many (myself included) that just find it easier to manage one identity
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah, totally, I think real names should be anexpansion not a tyrrany
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: boy could I have spelt that wronger?
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: tyranny
* [11:21] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yeah, they probably didn't come to SL to explore a walled garden prison based on american laws and puritanism.
* [11:21] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: you need to be careful that there are no unintentional penalties for those that choose to keep it private though
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hm, yes, I could see that being a possible pitfall
* [11:21] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: make APIs, let people make 3rd party apps, and let the echo system determine.
* [11:22] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: like the whole facebook/Xstreet wish lists thing
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I don't know about that, Aimee, what is it?
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Your xstreet wishlist is linked to facebook?
* [11:22] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: apparently so
* [11:22] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: Facebook won't allow avatar identities, you have to have your account as your real ID
* [11:23] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which is anathema for immersionists, and virtual worlds in general
* [11:23] [[User:Fael Illyar|Fael Illyar]]: has anyone started a "facebook" for avatars?
* [11:23] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: To be honest, I would like to go even further than real names. Why bother with registration at all?
* [11:23] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Lots of people use Ning for that
* [11:23] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Why require it I mean
* [11:23] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: In practice people are ignoring that new Facebook rule, my friends tell me.
* [11:24] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: A guest mode would be nice :)
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It'd be lovely to be able to pop inworld without the overhead of a password
* [11:24] [[User:Jonathan Yap|Jonathan Yap]]: When did that rule take effect?
* [11:24] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: OpenID
* [11:24] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, yeah, allow open id login
* [11:24] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: yeah, they suspended a lot of facebook accounts for it though
* [11:24] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I would like some kind of authentication to prevent my identity being stolen, thnak you
* [11:24] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: retinal scan from your webcam? :D
* [11:25] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I guess there's an M Facebook there too, coming up with daft new rules.
* [11:25] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
* [11:25] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I know many people use Ning for an avatar-facebook sort of thing.
* [11:26] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Anyway, web-2.0 is about RL social networking, so I guess Facebook has that as an excuse. But VWs are not about RL social networking at core, so it has no place here.
* [11:26] [[User:JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB-2|JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB-2]]:
* [#WEB-2] [[User:the ParserFunctions|the ParserFunctions]]: extension for MediaWiki
* [11:27] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: well I'd say that just because it is not *about* something doesn't mean that we should exclude that thing
* [11:27] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I know plenty of RL educators use SL for their meetings, on all sort of subjects.
* [11:27] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: yes
* [11:27] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: But if you mean that we should not change our purpose to include Facebookery, I agree
* [11:27] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: creating options fosters diversity
* [11:27] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: They even identify themselves by RL name and university.
* [11:28] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I suppose of you want to do that AND have a private SL experience, you use an alt
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Really, SL has often taken the form of "provid a bajillion options and see what people use"
* [11:28] [[User:AgileBill Firehawk|AgileBill Firehawk]]: lol
* [11:28] [[User:AgileBill Firehawk|AgileBill Firehawk]]: an anti-pattern I think
* [11:28] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: options are always good --- even immersionists accept that the augmentist world is a perfectly valid world ... for augmentists. The problems arise when everyone is coerced to a single worldview.
* [11:28] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: it would be nice to be able to manage multiple avatars through a single SL "account"
* [11:30] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Definitely, Aimee
* [11:30] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: so you could have a work avatar, showing your real ID, and a personal avatar keeping it private, but manage them together
* [11:30] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: With a single inventory and L$ balance
* [11:30] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: I suspect most Lindens could identify with that one :D
* [11:30] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Surely. :-)
* [11:31] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: yes, optionally, for some cases it would be better to keep balance and parts of inventory separate
* [11:31] [[User:Fael Illyar|Fael Illyar]]: That would be very nice :)
* [11:31] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: It is easy to pass money back and forth. Not so much with notrans objects
* [11:31] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: in the same way I have a separate business bank account
* [11:31] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: yes
* [11:31] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The other thing I'm interested in pushing the bar on is interactivity
* [11:31] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: would need to be careful that didnt get abused though
* [11:32] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'd love to be able to grab something onscreen and drag it around
* [11:32] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: you could set all you friends up with avatars under one account and share no copy stuff between them otherwise
* [11:32] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: (yes I know you can already)
* [11:32] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I seem to remember doing that during orientation
* [11:32] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: In our VWRAP discussions, one proposal was to split up identity into 3: (i) pure authentication for account access (could be OpenID or login), and this name does not leak into the world at all. (ii) a visible per-avatar name that is anything the user wants, and is not unique (multiple John Smiths needed to support the RL situation), and (iii) a unique name for transaction purposes, xxx@secondlife for example.
* [11:32] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I have had zero occassion to do it since!
* [11:32] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: But I mean, I'd like to be able to, say, shake these bamboo stalks around here
* [11:32] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Heh yeah
* [11:32] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Everything is so immutable
* [11:32] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: yeah, it used to be easier though, but happene a lot by accident
* [11:33] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: +d
* [11:33] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: which: chicken feathers?
* [11:33] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah, what, Enki, you prefer turkey?
* [11:33] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: lay out some carpets, the sand is getting in Dahlia's shoes.
* [11:34] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: my personal wish list for SL would have a much more immersive sound scape
* [11:34] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: it's this bad heel :(
* [11:34] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: chuckles
* [11:34] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: realistically simulated acoustics
* [11:35] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: make a concert hall and have performances there SOUND like they're in a concert hall
* [11:35] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: yeah that'd be cool
* [11:35] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Without that damn wind all the time
* [11:35] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: lol, well you can turn the wind down
* [11:35] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Dahlia: in Opensim, I know you have OpenID OPs and RPs already as an option, but is there anything to address points (ii) and (iii) above?
* [11:35] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: personally I like a little bit of wind there most of the time as it makes wearing headphones more comfortable
* [11:35] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: You are talking about convolution processing. Kind of compute intensive.
* [11:35] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i have seen some cool looking demo's fromo CES. for input guestures. it uses a web cam to watch your fingers and hand movements and does stuff. sort of like touch without touching for minority report sort of interface
* [11:36] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: scans backchat...
* [11:36] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: latif: cool!
* [11:36] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: that's kind of what i was getting at
* [11:36] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: convolution isn't so bad, it's calculating the impulse reponse to use with it
* [11:36] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I have used convolution reverbs for my music, and they do sound wonderful..
* [11:36] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: i have a not-enough-coffee headache
* [11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: just ate some coffeee ice cream
* [11:36] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: Morgaine, not yet that I'm aware of
* [11:37] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Well, the impulse response can be swiped form a real hall. I would not try to synthesize one based on an SL build...
* [11:37] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Don't most computers have 3D audio accelerators nowadays?
* [11:37] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Only need one cup every 4 days to stop the caffeine withdrawal headache.
* [11:37] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: I wrote an acoustic ray tracer back in college to generate IRs
* [11:37] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: Ice cream? o.O
* [11:37] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I seem to recall Unreal using that technology BITD
* [11:37] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: it needs to be dynamic for SL
* [11:37] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I can tell you this - the audio chips in most computers are not supported by pro music software, because they are not preceise enough.
* [11:37] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: 3D audio is a patent nightmare though
* [11:38] [[User:Fael Illyar|Fael Illyar]]: I seem to remember an article explaining how to use the graphics card for accelerating 3d audio
* [11:38] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Something about sample timing
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Games were pretty dynamic, but maybe there was some precomputation
* [11:38] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: Creative Labs own most of them and hit people hard with them if they step on their space
* [11:38] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Them or Dolby
* [11:38] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: My Logitech surround headset has Dolby things in its driver.
* [11:38] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: The musician community is using CUDA / OpenCL for convolution processing on their GPUs a fair bit these days, there's half a dozen or so GPU-based reverbs around now.
* [11:38] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: OpenCL and stuff I'm itching to use for acoustic ray tracing though
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Wll that's ok, we'll just wait 17 years and then we'll have great audio
* [11:38] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: But my acytual surround speakers do not care. :)
* [11:38] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: it's finding the time to do it
* [11:39] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: acoustic ray tracing would be very welcome by the blind users. They use those sorts of effects in RL
* [11:39] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: I have a second graphics card sat in my machine waiting for me to get the time
* [11:39] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hehe
* [11:40] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: One problem with that route is the power than GPUs suck.
* [11:40] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'd try to help incorporate such a patch
* [11:40] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Though I'd probably suck at it
* [11:40] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: I suppose the first step would be some way of associating a single IR to a parcel that gets downloaded like any other sound sample and putting a convolution reverb in the client
* [11:41] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: that's not very flexible, but would be interesting as a first step
* [11:42] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: a decent GPU should be able to do stereo convolution at audio rates without having a great deal of impact on what else it's doing
* [11:42] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Yes. Plenty of floating point horsepower there
* [11:42] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Immersionists would love anything that makes in-world presence more convincing, and 3D sound certainly fits that.
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Extrapolating, it'd be nice if SL afforded more tools for making good-looking-and-operating scenes
* [11:43] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: "scenes"?
* [11:43] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: heh would be nice if Lindel Lab was more responsive
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Like the old games trick of using different collision geometry than rendered geometry
* [11:43] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: yes indeed, but NOT added into the monolithic client. Use the same approach as the plugin-api uses.
* [11:43] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: for example windlight settings per region was promissed and requested since 2007
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: And the impulse response thing
* [11:43] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Well, the collision geometry does not usually need ot be as detailed
* [11:43] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: it would make SL look so much varied
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: I guess the stuff I was thinking of would need server support too
* [11:44] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: and it's a easy thing to do
* [11:44] [[User:AgileBill Firehawk|AgileBill Firehawk]]: The Jazz team at IBM made their product backlog visible. I: wonder if something like that might help people feel included in plans?
* [11:44] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: yes, the IRs could be generated with much simpler geometry
* [11:44] [[User:Inoshiro Linden|Inoshiro Linden]]: RL beckons... Thanks for letting me lurk without too much harrassment. ;-)
* [11:44] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Heh, thanks for stopping by, Inoshiro!
* [11:44] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: could use simplified geometry to do audio occlusion too
* [11:44] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Inoshiro, you get of easy tje forst time :)
* [11:44] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: An impulse response takes into account the material something is made of too
* [11:44] [[User:Melchizedek Blauvelt|Melchizedek Blauvelt]]: bye Ino
* [11:45] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: We do have material selection already
* [11:45] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Kind of limited
* [11:45] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: yes, need to take absorbtion into account
* [11:45] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: All tools should go in external plugins of the plugin-api kind, including the current build tools which should be factored out. Inside the monolithic client, all you want is a build API for the external tools to talk to.
* [11:45] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: That would probably want an expansion
* [11:45] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: but with the exxisting system everything would sound like plywood
* [11:45] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Just like my house!
* [11:45] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: LOL
* [11:45] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Theaters have heavy drapes on the walls for a reason
* [11:46] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: there's supposed to be a better materials system in the pipeline somewhere, maybe something to consider alongside that\
* [11:46] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: An auditorium with people in the seats sounds different form an empty auditorium. I dont know we have to go that far
* [11:46] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: heh
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: rustles in his seat and coughs
* [11:47] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: lol
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: munches candy and crinckles plastic
* [11:47] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: well, you could make the sit script change the object's absorbtion factor :D
* [11:47] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: ponders ice cream and coffee
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Or avatars could be modeled
* [11:47] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: A realstic theater would have the seat objects emitting that noise. And cellphones going off
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: As meatbags
* [11:47] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Let that be step 1 of "SLHD" ... high def materials. Textures for a start need to be larger than the 1920x1080 of 1080p, which means 2048x2048 minimum.
* [11:47] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: true lol
* [11:48] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: chuckles at the cellphones
* [11:48] [[User:AgileBill Firehawk|AgileBill Firehawk]]: lol
* [11:48] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i don't want it *that* realistic lol
* [11:48] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: I'd better order a few more GB of ram for my graphics card in hat case
* [11:48] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I have heard of symphony conductors stopping a performance when that happened
* [11:48] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: *that
* [11:49] [[User:Jonathan Yap|Jonathan Yap]]: Interesting discussion, I have to run along to a performance a friend is giving. tc all
* [11:49] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: bye :)
* [11:49] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Realstic sound spaces, combined with 3D goggles would really be interesting
* [11:49] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Now that is a great reason to run off
* [11:49] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: And add gesture recognition.
* [11:49] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Aimee: the cards don't need to load entire textures, only the sub-N^2 area being used. The main impact is on download and storage sizes.
* [11:49] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: yep, and head tracking too
* [11:50] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: in 10 years we can probably have consumer level 3d raytracing for graphics
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Is there any good single-eye display technology out there?
* [11:50] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Imageine what flightsim could do with that...
* [11:50] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: real-time
* [11:50] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: reaches up and to the right for the "fasten seat belt" sign
* [11:50] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: single eye display technology? o.O
* [11:50] [[User:AgileBill Firehawk|AgileBill Firehawk]]: nice
* [11:51] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I'd like Johnny Chung Lee's real 3D display technology, which is incredibly convincing, it fools the brain entirely.
* [11:51] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw]
* [11:51] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Yes
* [11:51] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: works amazingly well even in the youbtube video
* [11:51] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yep
* [11:51] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Not if you combine that with the head-mounted mini-displays..
* [11:51] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: *NOW if you...
* [11:51] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Dahlia: yeah I'd like to be able to walk around wearing glasses that happen to have a small display embedded in them
* [11:51] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: That would be incredible for immersionism
* [11:51] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: yes
* [11:52] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: I'm rather depressed that 3D is becoming pervasive *after* my left eye goes bad :(
* [11:52] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: The "walking around" part could get dangerous
* [11:52] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'm more interested in wearing a computer that I can see at all times than I am in immersion, honestly
* [11:52] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Imagine the 911 calls...
* [11:52] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah, you think texting is bad!
* [11:52] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: head tracking can help with 3D visuliztaion even without stereo vision
* [11:52] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: They did have them in the early 00's, I worked with some of them
* [11:52] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: "My husband was fighting off the Klingons when he fell down the basement steps."
* [11:53] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: head mounted display glasses are for augmentists --- that inherently merges the RL and virtual worlds, by design, which is antithetical to immersionism (except for augmentists).
* [11:53] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Ie. no world separation
* [11:53] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Same technology though. You just put lens caps over them for the immersionists
* [11:53] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hahaha
* [11:53] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: THAT is when you fall down the basement steps
* [11:54] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Funnily enough, there's some truth in that
* [11:54] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'm looking for something that only occupies a portion of my vision
* [11:54] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I can see it now - the new style in "Media Rooms" has no furniture, and padded walls
* [11:54] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: lol
* [11:54] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Don't knock it, easier to keep it clean :-)
* [11:54] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Make the whole house like that
* [11:54] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Need chairs though
* [11:55] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: How l;ight weight have they got those olittle display screens?
* [11:55] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: when they open the amsterdam data centre it'll make it easier to put a cold shower in the ceiling
* [11:55] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I think Which should adopt a New Year Resolution of enabling scripts here ... we can handle the occasional griefing.
* [11:56] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Did you see the new cellphone with a built in projector?
* [11:56] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Reminded me immediately of that MIT project
* [11:56] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Can I enable scripts via a script?
* [11:56] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Cause then I could enable them when I'm here, and not when I'm gone
* [11:56] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Mojito: the one on TED?
* [11:56] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: has someone FINALLY released a cellphone with a micro projector then?
* [11:56] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: having scripts enabled with no build does not help griefers much
* [11:57] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: just uses the take controls trick
* [11:57] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeJum-mGo7U]
* [11:57] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: I've been out of the displays business for 5 years and they were talking about them then :D
* [11:57] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: OK, I'll try it with the scripts enabled, we'll see how it goes
* [11:58] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: cool, I'd not heard that, it's about time :D
* [11:59] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: I usually have open perms on my land with 15 minute auto return, seldom have I had problems but I'm not a Linden holding office hours so I dont get greifed much
* [11:59] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: my viewer really does not like this place lol
* [11:59] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: only the occasionall mario or afro particle attack
* [12:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i will send Nyx over, my frame rate drops to 8fps (i usually get over 30)
* [12:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It's cause of my bamboo
* [12:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Runitai hashassled me about them numerous time
* [12:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: s
* [12:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hehehe
* [12:00] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: nothing better for causing low frame rates than a stack of alpha textures :D
* [12:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I have a pair of large, alpha textures that are interleaved
* [12:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Apparently it is like a worst case for graphics cars
* [12:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: *cards
* [12:01] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yeah, looks like it :)
* [12:01] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: once built an island for a certain finish tech company who insisted they wanted a forest of "hundreds of trees around it"
* [12:02] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: *Finnish
* [12:02] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: heads to the kitchen to make a sandwich... bye all :)
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: heads off to a meeting
* [12:02] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: tc Dahlia :)
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: thanks all, this was great fun
* [12:02] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: take care Which
* [12:02] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: could barely move when you looked outside there lol
* [12:02] [[User:Melchizedek Blauvelt|Melchizedek Blauvelt]]: bye all :)
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Glad to have such a great start to the year!
* [12:02] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: bye :)
* [12:03] [[User:Fael Illyar|Fael Illyar]]: smiles.
* [12:03] [[User:Fael Illyar|Fael Illyar]]: Have fun :)
* [12:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Peace

User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2009 Dec 17

2009-12-17T20:05:59Z

Which Linden: Created page with '* [11:01] Which Linden: hi! * [11:01] Patnad Babii: hi guys sorry was afk :) * [11:01] Which Linden: just got...'

* [11:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hi!
* [11:01] [[User:Patnad Babii|Patnad Babii]]: hi guys sorry was afk :)
* [11:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: just got in myself
* [11:02] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hi Which ... making breakfast, so intermittent here.
* [11:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: man I ate some cookies for breakfast
* [11:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: that was ... a bit overwhelming
* [11:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hi aimee!
* [11:04] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: hey :)
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: is still waking up really
* [11:05] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: heh, me too and it's 7pm here lol
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha ha
* [11:05] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: I generally don't wake up properly till about 10pm
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: that sun's gotta be way down there, huh
* [11:06] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: what sun? LOL
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah it's really weird how sometimes right when it becomes night there's a big boost of energy
* [11:07] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I relate more to suns many light years away than to our local one. They're both just theories, when you're in the UK.
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hah
* [11:07] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: :D
* [11:07] [[User:Patnad Babii|Patnad Babii]]: hoy, the script limitation seem to be a hot subject these days
* [11:07] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: actually it's been nice sunny weather here the past week or two
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah, mostly cause of the lack of information it seems
* [11:07] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: but then I'm in about the only bit of the UK that gets any
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: (the script limits, not the sun)
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: what part is that?
* [11:08] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: yeah, I think the script limits are planned to work off moon phases
* [11:08] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: Cornwall, far SW tip
* [11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: righto
* [11:09] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I've never been to Cornwall, but I wrote an essay about the place as a kid (using info from National Geographic) and won a prize, lol.
* [11:09] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: :D nice
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: it's weird looking at a map of england and seeing place names that I'm familiar with from New England, but in a different arrangement
* [11:10] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: lol yeah
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: they didn't even both to call it "new plymouth", it's just "plymouth" v.2
* [11:10] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I was born in the West Country though, so not all that far away from the south.
* [11:10] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: I think New York is a bit bigger then York too
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so yeah.... script limits... I think the overall strategy is very good: make the limits visible before they're enforced
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: and try to make them understandable
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'm sure the particular implementation will want for some love, but it'll all get worked out in the end
* [11:14] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: It will cause several problems for the first few weeks then I fear.
* [11:14] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: Think of a fashion show... guests with tons of scripted hair kill the script memory ...
* [11:15] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: model crashes, gets back in, and none of her stuff is working anymore.
* [11:15] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: cause no more free script memory in the sim.
* [11:16] [[User:BlackLotus Swansong|BlackLotus Swansong]]: Yes, hair is going to be the most effected item I think. Has there been any thought on how that is going to be solved with old objects that are multi-scripted like hair?
* [11:16] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: As long as there is no way to force people to unwear scripted stuff, it will be very very hard for all kind of events.
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Depends if it's a hard limit or a soft limit, though Tillie
* [11:16] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: anyone want a santa hat? it's not scripted :)
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Sure!
* [11:17] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: gave you Dahlia's Sculptie Santa Hat.
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yay
* [11:17] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: :)
* [11:17] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: I know one designer who changed to scripted hair but then went back because of caused lag etc. the only one I know of.
* [11:17] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: I know one also
* [11:18] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: b00n I mean.
* [11:18] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: then she quit because of the XStreet stuff
* [11:18] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: sad
* [11:18] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: yah sure, I removed about 75% of my stuff, too.
* [11:19] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: ya she used to geive me a lot of free stuff too :(
* [11:19] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: *give
* [11:19] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: And 20% LL removed cause you can hints of nipples in partially transparent shirts I sold. P
* [11:19] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: can see
* [11:20] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: Ok, if it is good done, the scripting limits might help.
* [11:20] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: We'll see.
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hopefully only the most egregious of content has to be remade
* [11:21] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: most of my scripts are still the older LSL
* [11:21] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: I changed some to mono
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: probably a power law thing, 5% of content casues 95% of script-rlated lag
* [11:22] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: I switched my posing stand huds back to lsl, and the stand itself to mono, as you dont carry it around usually. ^^
* [11:23] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: woud it be an option to let scripts go over parcel limits but they could be swapped out if other parcels needed it back?
* [11:23] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: why back to lsl?
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'm sure thats one possible option
* [11:24] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: LSL seems to work better when there are a lot of linked messages
* [11:24] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: back to lsl so it doesnt cause lag spikes on sim entering.
* [11:24] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: Those are VERY annoying...
* [11:25] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: all resources need to look after their usage, but I think script limits as you're implementing them are extremely bad, because they will result in continual breakage throughout the world as the limits are continually hit. What you should have designed is a progressive negative feedback mechanism by raising the cost as you use more resource. That's straight out of control theory. Wherever you have hard limits, you creat discontinuities that cause breakage.
* [11:25] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: There are many visitors to the latex shop on my sim, and when I am just working and someone enters.... everything halts for 1-8 seconds, that is just ridiculous.
* [11:25] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: Yes, that long sometimes.
* [11:25] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: there are limits now, they just aren't distributed fairly
* [11:26] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: hence the problems
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: wait what are you talking about? I wasn't aware that we'd even exposed the current script limits stuff
* [11:26] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: Sure you have. :P
* [11:26] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: whenever a region freezes, a limit has been reached :)
* [11:26] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: Ok, not the fingrained stuff...
* [11:27] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: fine...
* [11:27] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: or when scripts slow down
* [11:27] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah teh freezing sounds like shite programming
* [11:27] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: but there is a hard discussion in the dev mailing list...
* [11:27] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: But there's already a sort of poor man's progressive negative feedback in place, in the sense that when the sim is slugged, everything slows down. What's going to happen when the limit come is is that you'll have continual breakage even when the sim is working fine.
* [11:28] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: I still think the most annoying limit of all is the one that forced you to split your script into like 8 pieces, which only makes the whole thingy way worse.
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: depends on how it's implemented, Morgaine, I think you're arguing against a strawman
* [11:28] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: script limits have been discussed in a lot of detail by Babbage over many OHs.
* [11:28] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: no I'm not. We know from Babbage that the limit is a simple cutoff. There's no progressive feedback.
* [11:29] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: there was once an effort to separate the script engine into another process in OpenSim but it kinda died
* [11:29] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Ahhh...yeah
* [11:29] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: my bad, didn't see the office hours stuff
* [11:30] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hm....yes it does seem like a hard-limi thing
* [11:31] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: though kelly seemed open to some sort of cap-and-trade thing
* [11:31] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Babbage does excellent tech OHs, really detailed. In conjunction with his video presentations for lang.NET, that's a ton of great material.
* [11:33] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: Ok, already have to go again, fashion show wants to be photographed. :-)
* [11:33] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: great reason to leave!
* [11:33] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Cyu later Tillie :-)
* [11:33] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: have fun!
* [11:33] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: tc :)
* [11:33] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: laters
* [11:35] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: They're fun, Tillie's fashion shows. Makes me want to try my and at clothes making ... but they'd undoubtedly look awful, given my zero artistic ability.
* [11:35] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: hand*
* [11:35] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: I've had products in a few before, they are a pain to deal with sometimes
* [11:35] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I dunno.... my impression is that amateurs can achieve on the level of real artists, it just takes orders of magnitude more time
* [11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: for example, I'm an amateur builder, and this semi-decent av took me three months
* [11:36] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: cool avie :)
* [11:36] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: We need to make things for Opensim anyway, so worth trying. The shelves are a bit bare there currently.
* [11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'm sure that a real artist could do a better job in an hour
* [11:37] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: maybe a few hours ;)
* [11:37] [[User:Melchizedek Blauvelt|Melchizedek Blauvelt]]: Nods, took me months to get a semi decent understanding of Blender, but it finally gave in
* [11:37] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: <3 blender :)
* [11:37] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: is belnder unintuitive in an absolute sense, or just relative to other 3D programs?
* [11:38] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: WTB Dahlia OH, on Blender :P
* [11:38] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: 3D is just difficult in general
* [11:38] [[User:Melchizedek Blauvelt|Melchizedek Blauvelt]]: I guess mostly the vocabulary Which
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: the visual vocabulary?
* [11:39] [[User:Melchizedek Blauvelt|Melchizedek Blauvelt]]: With a background in philosophy something like "ambient occlusion" doesn't tell you much
* [11:39] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: blender takes a while to learn but the UI is really a lot easier to use once you learn it
* [11:39] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Why aren't there intermediate tools that encapsulate the "vocabulary" away? Eg. we build quite happily in SL despite it being 3D. Just needs the right human interfaces.
* [11:39] [[User:Melchizedek Blauvelt|Melchizedek Blauvelt]]: Also the hundreds (or so) hotkeys are hard to master
* [11:39] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: SL™ is pretty easy compared to other platforms
* [11:40] [[User:Leslie Scribe|Leslie Scribe]]: I want constructive solid geometry.
* [11:41] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah CSG is pretty powerful
* [11:41] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: We're just missing the operators for CSG, right? Like intersections between prims, say
* [11:41] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah the other boolean operators
* [11:41] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: I want mesh import :)
* [11:41] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: we already have OR
* [11:41] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Haha
* [11:41] [[User:Melchizedek Blauvelt|Melchizedek Blauvelt]]: Another thing that is slightly misleading is that "Blender grid configuration for SL" is an advanced tutorial in most cases, while it should be the first thing to do
* [11:41] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: SL reminds me a bit of Bryce3D
* [11:42] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: never used bryce
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: it was an early "easy-to-use" tool
* [11:44] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: used only CSG, no meshes
* [11:44] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: was it for CAD applications?
* [11:45] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: no it was for...uh well I'm not sure what its market was
* [11:45] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: probably why it died out in the end
* [11:45] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I used it at school
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I gotta say that CSG was really limiting, especially for something that was clearly aiming to be photorealistic
* [11:47] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: I used to use "ME10" which was a CAD application by HP - you started with a primitive and performed virtual machining operations on it
* [11:47] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Philip used to talk about photorealism being the target. Is that still the same inside LL, or did it go away when he "left".
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'm sure it's still a target...but it's a lot further off
* [11:48] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I mean, Bryce was non-realtime so it was a lot more plausible then
* [11:48] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Took that crap like 2 hours to render a scene and it wasn't even raytraced
* [11:48] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: ouch
* [11:49] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: heh
* [11:49] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I really like CAD programs and think that more of their principles should be appliedto regular 3D programs (except for the crashing)
* [11:49] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Well raising the max texture size is probably the next "baby step" towards photorealism.
* [11:49] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: I remember playing with painter's algorithm back in the C64 days, too a bit of time do draw a couple items
* [11:50] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: We need 2048x2048 minimum, simply because HD @ 1920x1200 is now a standard resolution, and it doesn't fit into today's texture limits.
* [11:51] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah, surely
* [11:51] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Though how big a file is that?
* [11:51] [[User:Leslie Scribe|Leslie Scribe]]: 16MB in RAM raw
* [11:51] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: ambient occlusion in real time :)
* [11:51] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: ducks...
* [11:51] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Tomorrow's sizes always sound too big today. Come tomorrow, they suddenly become insignificant.
* [11:52] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: according to a medical images page, jpg2000 compression of a 2048x2048 images gets it ot 4 megs
* [11:52] [[User:Leslie Scribe|Leslie Scribe]]: There are some 2048x2048 textures in the asset storage system.
* [11:52] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: orly...asset upload hole?
* [11:52] [[User:Leslie Scribe|Leslie Scribe]]: Old textures.
* [11:53] [[User:Leslie Scribe|Leslie Scribe]]: Not sure what happens if somebody tries to upload one of those now.
* [11:53] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Can the viewer cope with larger textures, if we had them in Opensim?
* [11:53] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: there used to be a higher limit to texture size
* [11:53] [[User:Leslie Scribe|Leslie Scribe]]: Seems like its up to the client to control that.
* [11:53] [[User:Leslie Scribe|Leslie Scribe]]: You know what trusing the client gets you.
* [11:53] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Leslie: what?
* [11:54] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: I doubt opensim has a limit. If it does, it can easily be defeated
* [11:54] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: but I dont think larger textures are really going to buy you that much
* [11:54] [[User:Leslie Scribe|Leslie Scribe]]: Modified clients doing things that result in difficult situations.
* [11:54] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Leslie: FUD
* [11:54] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: better lighting would help a lot more
* [11:54] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: we enforce those limits server-side now too
* [11:55] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah...when's that deferred rendering branch coming out?
* [11:55] [[User:Leslie Scribe|Leslie Scribe]]: The reason I know there are 2048x2048 textures in the asset storage system is I was trying to figure out why a particular fox tail was clobbering my framerate.
* [11:56] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hah ... it had one of those textures?
* [11:56] [[User:Leslie Scribe|Leslie Scribe]]: There were 3 of them applied to flexi prims.
* [11:57] [[User:Leslie Scribe|Leslie Scribe]]: 3 different 16MB textures in RAM
* [11:57] [[User:Patnad Babii|Patnad Babii]]: uhm but we have already a hard time loading simple 512x512 texture why would we want larger ones
* [11:57] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: PIXEL LIMITS!!!
* [11:57] [[User:Patnad Babii|Patnad Babii]]: rez time used to be way more faster bak in the days
* [11:58] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Well blame the cache for much of that. Sorry, I mean "the alleged cache".
* [11:59] [[User:Leslie Scribe|Leslie Scribe]]: I don't know why a huge texture reduces frame rate. It just seems to and 3 on one object was vary objectionable.
* [11:59] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: It might be different in the new engine.
* [11:59] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: or a different computer
* [11:59] [[User:Patnad Babii|Patnad Babii]]: well its not only a cache thing, i mean even when you visit a place for the first time, it used to be much quicker
* [12:00] [[User:Leslie Scribe|Leslie Scribe]]: Texture cache seems to work okay for me.
* [12:00] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: emerald seems to have the best texture performance for me
* [12:01] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: the SL™ viewer works pretty well too, but snowglobe still has problems
* [12:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: alright folks, time for me to eat some pumpkins
* [12:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I mean turn into
* [12:02] [[User:Leslie Scribe|Leslie Scribe]]: Media playing with Snowglobe still needs work. The "modules" seem to be crashing.
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I mean, happy holidays!
* [12:02] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: tc :)
* [12:02] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Cyu Which, Merry Xmas!
* [12:02] [[User:BlackLotus Swansong|BlackLotus Swansong]]: Thank you for your time Which
* [12:02] [[User:Melchizedek Blauvelt|Melchizedek Blauvelt]]: Have a nice Xmas Which :)
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'm not going to be here next week, so, see you in the new year!
* [12:02] [[User:Patnad Babii|Patnad Babii]]: eheh happy holidays Which and everyone
* [12:02] [[User:BlackLotus Swansong|BlackLotus Swansong]]: And happy Holiidatys all arround
* [12:02] [[User:Leslie Scribe|Leslie Scribe]]: Bye Which.

User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2009 Dec 10

2009-12-10T20:02:36Z

Which Linden: >.> <.<

* [11:03] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Aloha, usual suspects :P
* [11:03] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: OMG, Which has a hammer
* [11:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yello! afk for one sec
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: bacl
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah!
* [11:05] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Wl
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: it's a ban hammer
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: let's see how it works
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: has banned Dzonatas Sol with the G Team ban hammer!
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: has banned Dzonatas Sol with the G Team ban hammer!
* [11:05] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: I feel so bad
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha ha it apparently doesn't aim
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: did, uh, anything actually happen?
* [11:06] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: I got the hint?
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha ha
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: lol
* [11:06] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: lol "NO ENTRY" spam
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oh does it actually spam you?
* [11:06] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: just graphically
* [11:07] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: LOL, bugged G Team tool, oh joy -)
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: funny....well that's kind of not exciting
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: maybe I have to be in god mode
* [11:07] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: it's a bling bomb
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oskar has this amazing one that tarraforms a huge crater when used
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: *terraforms
* [11:08] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: That's funny but inappropriate, or appropriate but not funny, or something. Or perhaps it's worrying that banning can be turned into fun.
* [11:09] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: I like the one AfterLife guilotine... you get your head chopped of and sent randomly to heaven or hell... rezzed above in the sky
* [11:09] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Sorry I'm late, took a while to find clothes that still loaded!?!
* [11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha, man, dang on that
* [11:09] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: It's OK Xugu, clothing is optional
* [11:09] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: I'm glad, this outfit isn't normally this skimpy...
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha ha, it's enforced spring break time
* [11:11] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: Well, currently I'm trying to secure LLIOHTTPServer, and I don't understand how to use it with https. I don't want to derail any topics, but hints would be nice.
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: What is LLIOHTTPServer?
* [11:12] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: llRequestSecureURL() is probably the magic you want Dzonatas
* [11:12] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: SNOW-375 uses LLIOHTTPServer for a REST like interface
* [11:12] [[User:JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-375|JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-375]]:
* [#SNOW-375] [[User:Communicator: Chat/IM/Contacts|Communicator: Chat/IM/Contacts]]: windows "thinking outside the box" in a separate process/plugin
* [11:12] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oh I see, lliohttpserver is one of the classes in our http server implementation
* [11:13] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: to the veiwer
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: to be honest, the implementation of that stuff is a bit opaque to me as well
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I don't believe we use it to serve HTTPs at all internally
* [11:14] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: thanks Xugu, I'll see if someting I can use from that
* [11:15] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which, as Python and Eventlet are on your OH description, I was wondering ... do you work with Enus on the Eventlet side of PyOGP?
* [11:15] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: I think I may have got the wrong idea, llRequestSecureURL is server not client, sorry
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: not super closely, but I am responsive to Enus's needs on that front
* [11:15] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Woot!
* [11:15] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: \o/
* [11:15] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: :-)
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: for example, I recently removed the dependency on PyOpenSSL in 0.9.1 because installing it on Windows is a bear
* [11:16] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: And, that's an understatement!
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: (not that installing greenlet is a picnic, either, but it's at least self-contained)
* [11:16] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: That's cool, Which!
* [11:16] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hiya Fisher!
* [11:16] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: Hey Morgaine
* [11:18] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: also sometimes I consult on design decisions.... i.e. the need is for a list of items and a coroutine that can pull items off of it as they get added.... and I'm like, "you mean a coros.Queue?"
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: working a lot on evenlet lately actually
* [11:19] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I think PyOGP isn't getting the attention it deserves. It could be LL's salvation for staying on top of regressions while still moving ahead fast.
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: we're definitely planning on using pyogp for lots of testing
* [11:19] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: I'm working on it right now, in fact
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I actually think that we consider it largely done
* [11:19] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: not the framework but the testing
* [11:19] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Has M even heard of PyOGP?
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: as in feature-complete not "development is ceased"
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Fisher: sweet!
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'm sure M has
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Not sure if he's heard of eventlet though!
* [11:20] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: That's OK, hehe, not asking or miracles :P
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah....pyogp is very important to our future
* [11:21] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I hope a good test suite gets sorted out.
* [11:21] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: nope
* [11:21] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: voice chat is stable here
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: must be just my viewer then
* [11:22] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: yep, Morgaine, absolutely
* [11:22] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I'm running Imprudence currently, Voice is on and stable
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Fisher, if you don't mind saying, what are you using pyogp to test?
* [11:22] [[User:Disconnected from|Disconnected from]]: in-world Voice Chat
* [11:22] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: Core regression testing
* [11:22] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: "Core" being defined as ?
* [11:23] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: server
* [11:23] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: s
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Core == simulator, dataserver, web services
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: (internal web services)
* [11:24] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: Yes
* [11:24] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: that stuff
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So what do you mean by regression testing? Do you write a test case for a known bug and then compile a bunch into a suite that's run automatically?
* [11:26] [[User:BlackLotus Swansong|BlackLotus Swansong]]: Sory, I have a cust in need of assistance.
* [11:27] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Which, that's what I'd call regression testing, yeah. Basically to make sure a bug can't sneak back in
* [11:27] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Pretty much all the unit tests available tend to get thrown into regression suites. It's rare that there's too many to run in the time available :-)
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh I dunno...industrious developers have been known to write tests that consume huge amounts of time....
* [11:28] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: Regression testing is defined to be a list of known tests that pass on existing software
* [11:28] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: But in addition to unit tests, you've got all the multi-unit functional tests, and limits testing, and invariants tests, .... list goes on forever :-)
* [11:28] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: A regression test suite therefore is one that runs for each new software rev in order to confirm that the software hasn't 'regressed', i.e. gone backward
* [11:28] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yup
* [11:29] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: It can include unit, integration, system, functional, stress, load, performance, etc
* [11:29] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I was in QA in one of my contracts, for a major UK computer company. It was really interesting.
* [11:29] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah, QA is really underappreciated field
* [11:30] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: What were you working on, Morgaine?
* [11:30] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: As we move forward, the suite gets larger by including tests for bugs fixed for each s/w revision
* [11:30] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: And, that's why automation is key
* [11:30] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: sorry. got a little excited there
* [11:30] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: :-)
* [11:31] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: It was a comms backbone for a semi-sensitive defence contract (office stuff, not military).
* [11:31] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: sounds like fun. :-)
* [11:32] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Ha ha ha, automation is exciting
* [11:32] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: I worked for defense contractors before
* [11:32] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: the paperwork will kill you even before you right a line of code
* [11:32] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: IN another contract I wrote the test harnesses, including kernel work to add kernel security to the testing. It was C2, so not any huge security.
* [11:32] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I did some work on a B1 .... that was scary :P
* [11:33] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I saw a great talk at last years' GDC by a guy who worked on Brutal Legend....they wrote a bot that would send keystrokes to the game and play through it
* [11:33] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hate to think what class A security is like .... you're probably a nervous wreck after a couple of years of it.
* [11:33] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: And it worked as sort of a screensaver, so apparently a buncha bugs were caught by people just idly starting at this bot running around
* [11:34] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: *staring
* [11:34] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: many that word is hard to type, my fingers really want to type the word 'start'
* [11:34] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: lol
* [11:34] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: actually I think I've concluded that IRC and chat have killed my ability to type altogether
* [11:35] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: well related to that, I've been suggesting to Nyx to do fuzz testing in OSgrid. It's a much tougher environment for LL viewers than SL, since the servers and viewers were made for each other here.
* [11:35] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh man fuzz testing
* [11:35] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I love that shit
* [11:35] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Your 4th word is appropriate :-)
* [11:35] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: But ... I probably have a different idea of what that means than you do
* [11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Since I don't really see how OSGrid would help with fuzz testing
* [11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Just cause it'd be easier to modify the server to send random crap to the viewer?
* [11:36] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: it's not random fuzz like with a fuzz tester, but it's unexpected input.
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: OK, sure
* [11:38] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: OSgrid definitely stresses LL clients. Every single LL-based client dies in OSgrid on Linux, apparently with the sole exception of the new Imprudence. Some die in seconds, some in minutes, and some after an hour or more.
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The hard thing about fuzz testing is the verification
* [11:38] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: So, on a completely different note, any news on L$ transactions being transactional? :)
* [11:39] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I guess testing for "does the client crash" is the most basic of verification tests
* [11:39] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: But you might overlook something like "client doesn't crash but displays nothing useful"
* [11:40] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Xugu: in LSL, that's kind of a project that's been written up but is waiting for resources
* [11:40] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It has a few prerequisites that aren't met yet
* [11:40] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Good to hear it's getting closer to someone having time for it :)
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah....the wheels of justice turn slowly.....
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Can someone explain to me this discussion about map tiles on sldev?
* [11:43] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: I know the feeling. The last fortnight has been 5 minute patches with multi-day pre-requisites
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It sounds like opensim should just move to serving textures over http
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: And the viewer should be fix0red so it can have a variable base url rather than a hardcoded one
* [11:44] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: But I must be misunderstanding, cause that option seems to not have been brought up
* [11:44] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: Is it a deployment issue to keep legacy texture code? I don't understand that part on opensim
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Trying to keep legacy texture support seems .... incorrect... to me
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So...I guess I'll just watch it play out, see what happens.
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Just seemed strange to me
* [11:47] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: Seems like LLMediaPlugin would be the beter place for legacy code
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The entier map as media plugin .... I like it!@
* [11:47] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: That SLdev discussion really misses the point that Opensim is not SL. SL semi-compatibility is merely the first stage.
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Also I blame my bad typing on this unfamiliar keyboard I'm using
* [11:49] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Is there a central repository of media plugins? How can I give some a try?
* [11:49] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: There was a giant discussion about "Why OpenSim isn't trying to be SL" recently on OpenSim-Dev, actually
* [11:49] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: llqtwebkit and gstreamer is two only two plugins that are released
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Gotcha
* [11:50] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: the*
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Aimee's VNC plugin...not released?
* [11:50] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: (in the unlikely event I have free time ever again, I'll quote the next person who complains OpenSim doesn't have money, a cost to implement)
* [11:51] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: Which, did you download the iphone app?
* [11:52] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: No.....should I have?
* [11:52] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Is it k-rad?
* [11:53] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: k-rad?
* [11:53] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: No, but it's cool. :-)
* [11:53] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: I just downloaded it
* [11:55] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: What's the name?
* [11:55] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh I guess I can search in itunrs
* [11:56] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Touch Life?
* [11:56] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: yes
* [11:56] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: Touch Life
* [11:56] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ok that looks really cool
* [11:56] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Xugu: I wrote one of my few posts to opensim-dev about that issue, why Opensim is not trying to be an SL. It makes for pretty uncomfortable reading for Lindens, but it's the truth --- https://lists.berlios.de/pipermail/opensim-dev/2009-November/007930.html
* [11:56] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: $2.99!
* [11:56] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: but, still
* [11:56] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: And it somehow got a 12+ rating
* [11:57] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: lol
* [11:57] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Morgaine, yup, saw, was very good!
* [11:57] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: I downloaded it and now I can't find it on my phone!
* [11:57] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: apple's fault, I'm sure
* [11:57] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Shoulda gotten a clone!
* [11:58] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: OK folks.... I guess we're winding down here
* [11:58] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Wound down I think :)
* [11:59] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: =)
* [11:59] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: take care everyone
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Great to see you all
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Have a lovely weekend!

User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2009 Dec 10

2009-12-10T20:00:33Z

Which Linden: Created page with '* [10:37] G- Team: Ban Hammer: Press 'C' or 'Page Down' OR go into mouselook and left click to begin banning! * [10:39] Doug Linden: [http...'

* [10:37] [[User:G- Team|G- Team]]: Ban Hammer: Press 'C' or 'Page Down' OR go into mouselook and left click to begin banning!
* [10:39] [[User:Doug Linden|Doug Linden]]: [http://etherpad.lindenlab.com:19000/234480]
* [10:39] [[User:Don Linden|Don Linden]]: nope
* [10:43] [[User:Don Linden|Don Linden]]: od
* [10:43] [[User:Don Linden|Don Linden]]: nod
* [10:43] [[User:Don Linden|Don Linden]]: should push these ideas to others in core
* [10:43] [[User:Don Linden|Don Linden]]: they'd be interested
* [10:44] [[User:Don Linden|Don Linden]]: / put some more meat on these ideas, yeah
* [10:47] [[User:Don Linden|Don Linden]]: / could generate some 'weights' and affinities for each region
* [10:49] [[User:Don Linden|Don Linden]]: / 'win'
* [10:49] [[User:Don Linden|Don Linden]]: / :)
* [10:52] [[User:Don Linden|Don Linden]]: / we're (probably) not going to get a full refactor in any one project
* [10:52] [[User:Don Linden|Don Linden]]: / we need an end-design for what we want instead of lltask
* [10:52] [[User:Don Linden|Don Linden]]: / and move to it in pieces
* [10:55] [[User:Don Linden|Don Linden]]: / serialization / deserialization work is also a big crash-rate reducer
* [10:55] [[User:Don Linden|Don Linden]]: / double-win
* [10:58] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: me too
* [10:58] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: fuck schedules
* [11:02] [[User:Don Linden|Don Linden]]: / need to head to another meeting
* [11:02] [[User:Second Life|Second Life]]: Your region will restart in 5 minutes and 0 seconds for maintenance.
* [11:03] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Aloha, usual suspects :P
* [11:03] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: OMG, Which has a hammer
* [11:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yello! afk for one sec
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: bacl
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah!
* [11:05] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Wl
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: it's a ban hammer
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: let's see how it works
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: has banned Dzonatas Sol with the G Team ban hammer!
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: has banned Dzonatas Sol with the G Team ban hammer!
* [11:05] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: I feel so bad
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha ha it apparently doesn't aim
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: did, uh, anything actually happen?
* [11:06] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: I got the hint?
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha ha
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: lol
* [11:06] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: lol "NO ENTRY" spam
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oh does it actually spam you?
* [11:06] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: just graphically
* [11:07] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: LOL, bugged G Team tool, oh joy -)
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: funny....well that's kind of not exciting
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: maybe I have to be in god mode
* [11:07] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: it's a bling bomb
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oskar has this amazing one that tarraforms a huge crater when used
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: *terraforms
* [11:08] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: That's funny but inappropriate, or appropriate but not funny, or something. Or perhaps it's worrying that banning can be turned into fun.
* [11:09] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: I like the one AfterLife guilotine... you get your head chopped of and sent randomly to heaven or hell... rezzed above in the sky
* [11:09] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Sorry I'm late, took a while to find clothes that still loaded!?!
* [11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha, man, dang on that
* [11:09] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: It's OK Xugu, clothing is optional
* [11:09] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: I'm glad, this outfit isn't normally this skimpy...
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha ha, it's enforced spring break time
* [11:11] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: Well, currently I'm trying to secure LLIOHTTPServer, and I don't understand how to use it with https. I don't want to derail any topics, but hints would be nice.
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: What is LLIOHTTPServer?
* [11:12] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: llRequestSecureURL() is probably the magic you want Dzonatas
* [11:12] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: SNOW-375 uses LLIOHTTPServer for a REST like interface
* [11:12] [[User:JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-375|JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-375]]:
* [#SNOW-375] [[User:Communicator: Chat/IM/Contacts|Communicator: Chat/IM/Contacts]]: windows "thinking outside the box" in a separate process/plugin
* [11:12] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oh I see, lliohttpserver is one of the classes in our http server implementation
* [11:13] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: to the veiwer
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: to be honest, the implementation of that stuff is a bit opaque to me as well
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I don't believe we use it to serve HTTPs at all internally
* [11:14] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: thanks Xugu, I'll see if someting I can use from that
* [11:15] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which, as Python and Eventlet are on your OH description, I was wondering ... do you work with Enus on the Eventlet side of PyOGP?
* [11:15] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: I think I may have got the wrong idea, llRequestSecureURL is server not client, sorry
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: not super closely, but I am responsive to Enus's needs on that front
* [11:15] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Woot!
* [11:15] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: \o/
* [11:15] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: :-)
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: for example, I recently removed the dependency on PyOpenSSL in 0.9.1 because installing it on Windows is a bear
* [11:16] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: And, that's an understatement!
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: (not that installing greenlet is a picnic, either, but it's at least self-contained)
* [11:16] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: That's cool, Which!
* [11:16] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hiya Fisher!
* [11:16] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: Hey Morgaine
* [11:18] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: also sometimes I consult on design decisions.... i.e. the need is for a list of items and a coroutine that can pull items off of it as they get added.... and I'm like, "you mean a coros.Queue?"
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: working a lot on evenlet lately actually
* [11:19] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I think PyOGP isn't getting the attention it deserves. It could be LL's salvation for staying on top of regressions while still moving ahead fast.
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: we're definitely planning on using pyogp for lots of testing
* [11:19] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: I'm working on it right now, in fact
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I actually think that we consider it largely done
* [11:19] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: not the framework but the testing
* [11:19] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Has M even heard of PyOGP?
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: as in feature-complete not "development is ceased"
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Fisher: sweet!
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'm sure M has
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Not sure if he's heard of eventlet though!
* [11:20] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: That's OK, hehe, not asking or miracles :P
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah....pyogp is very important to our future
* [11:21] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I hope a good test suite gets sorted out.
* [11:21] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: nope
* [11:21] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: voice chat is stable here
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: must be just my viewer then
* [11:22] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: yep, Morgaine, absolutely
* [11:22] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I'm running Imprudence currently, Voice is on and stable
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Fisher, if you don't mind saying, what are you using pyogp to test?
* [11:22] [[User:Disconnected from|Disconnected from]]: in-world Voice Chat
* [11:22] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: Core regression testing
* [11:22] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: "Core" being defined as ?
* [11:23] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: server
* [11:23] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: s
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Core == simulator, dataserver, web services
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: (internal web services)
* [11:24] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: Yes
* [11:24] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: that stuff
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So what do you mean by regression testing? Do you write a test case for a known bug and then compile a bunch into a suite that's run automatically?
* [11:26] [[User:BlackLotus Swansong|BlackLotus Swansong]]: Sory, I have a cust in need of assistance.
* [11:27] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Which, that's what I'd call regression testing, yeah. Basically to make sure a bug can't sneak back in
* [11:27] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Pretty much all the unit tests available tend to get thrown into regression suites. It's rare that there's too many to run in the time available :-)
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh I dunno...industrious developers have been known to write tests that consume huge amounts of time....
* [11:28] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: Regression testing is defined to be a list of known tests that pass on existing software
* [11:28] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: But in addition to unit tests, you've got all the multi-unit functional tests, and limits testing, and invariants tests, .... list goes on forever :-)
* [11:28] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: A regression test suite therefore is one that runs for each new software rev in order to confirm that the software hasn't 'regressed', i.e. gone backward
* [11:28] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yup
* [11:29] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: It can include unit, integration, system, functional, stress, load, performance, etc
* [11:29] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I was in QA in one of my contracts, for a major UK computer company. It was really interesting.
* [11:29] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah, QA is really underappreciated field
* [11:30] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: What were you working on, Morgaine?
* [11:30] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: As we move forward, the suite gets larger by including tests for bugs fixed for each s/w revision
* [11:30] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: And, that's why automation is key
* [11:30] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: sorry. got a little excited there
* [11:30] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: :-)
* [11:31] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: It was a comms backbone for a semi-sensitive defence contract (office stuff, not military).
* [11:31] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: sounds like fun. :-)
* [11:32] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Ha ha ha, automation is exciting
* [11:32] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: I worked for defense contractors before
* [11:32] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: the paperwork will kill you even before you right a line of code
* [11:32] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: IN another contract I wrote the test harnesses, including kernel work to add kernel security to the testing. It was C2, so not any huge security.
* [11:32] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I did some work on a B1 .... that was scary :P
* [11:33] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I saw a great talk at last years' GDC by a guy who worked on Brutal Legend....they wrote a bot that would send keystrokes to the game and play through it
* [11:33] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hate to think what class A security is like .... you're probably a nervous wreck after a couple of years of it.
* [11:33] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: And it worked as sort of a screensaver, so apparently a buncha bugs were caught by people just idly starting at this bot running around
* [11:34] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: *staring
* [11:34] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: many that word is hard to type, my fingers really want to type the word 'start'
* [11:34] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: lol
* [11:34] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: actually I think I've concluded that IRC and chat have killed my ability to type altogether
* [11:35] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: well related to that, I've been suggesting to Nyx to do fuzz testing in OSgrid. It's a much tougher environment for LL viewers than SL, since the servers and viewers were made for each other here.
* [11:35] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh man fuzz testing
* [11:35] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I love that shit
* [11:35] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Your 4th word is appropriate :-)
* [11:35] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: But ... I probably have a different idea of what that means than you do
* [11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Since I don't really see how OSGrid would help with fuzz testing
* [11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Just cause it'd be easier to modify the server to send random crap to the viewer?
* [11:36] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: it's not random fuzz like with a fuzz tester, but it's unexpected input.
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: OK, sure
* [11:38] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: OSgrid definitely stresses LL clients. Every single LL-based client dies in OSgrid on Linux, apparently with the sole exception of the new Imprudence. Some die in seconds, some in minutes, and some after an hour or more.
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The hard thing about fuzz testing is the verification
* [11:38] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: So, on a completely different note, any news on L$ transactions being transactional? :)
* [11:39] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I guess testing for "does the client crash" is the most basic of verification tests
* [11:39] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: But you might overlook something like "client doesn't crash but displays nothing useful"
* [11:40] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Xugu: in LSL, that's kind of a project that's been written up but is waiting for resources
* [11:40] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It has a few prerequisites that aren't met yet
* [11:40] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Good to hear it's getting closer to someone having time for it :)
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah....the wheels of justice turn slowly.....
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Can someone explain to me this discussion about map tiles on sldev?
* [11:43] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: I know the feeling. The last fortnight has been 5 minute patches with multi-day pre-requisites
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It sounds like opensim should just move to serving textures over http
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: And the viewer should be fix0red so it can have a variable base url rather than a hardcoded one
* [11:44] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: But I must be misunderstanding, cause that option seems to not have been brought up
* [11:44] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: Is it a deployment issue to keep legacy texture code? I don't understand that part on opensim
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Trying to keep legacy texture support seems .... incorrect... to me
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So...I guess I'll just watch it play out, see what happens.
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Just seemed strange to me
* [11:47] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: Seems like LLMediaPlugin would be the beter place for legacy code
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The entier map as media plugin .... I like it!@
* [11:47] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: That SLdev discussion really misses the point that Opensim is not SL. SL semi-compatibility is merely the first stage.
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Also I blame my bad typing on this unfamiliar keyboard I'm using
* [11:49] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Is there a central repository of media plugins? How can I give some a try?
* [11:49] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: There was a giant discussion about "Why OpenSim isn't trying to be SL" recently on OpenSim-Dev, actually
* [11:49] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: llqtwebkit and gstreamer is two only two plugins that are released
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Gotcha
* [11:50] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: the*
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Aimee's VNC plugin...not released?
* [11:50] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: (in the unlikely event I have free time ever again, I'll quote the next person who complains OpenSim doesn't have money, a cost to implement)
* [11:51] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: Which, did you download the iphone app?
* [11:52] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: No.....should I have?
* [11:52] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Is it k-rad?
* [11:53] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: k-rad?
* [11:53] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: No, but it's cool. :-)
* [11:53] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: I just downloaded it
* [11:55] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: What's the name?
* [11:55] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh I guess I can search in itunrs
* [11:56] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Touch Life?
* [11:56] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: yes
* [11:56] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: Touch Life
* [11:56] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ok that looks really cool
* [11:56] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Xugu: I wrote one of my few posts to opensim-dev about that issue, why Opensim is not trying to be an SL. It makes for pretty uncomfortable reading for Lindens, but it's the truth --- https://lists.berlios.de/pipermail/opensim-dev/2009-November/007930.html
* [11:56] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: $2.99!
* [11:56] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: but, still
* [11:56] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: And it somehow got a 12+ rating
* [11:57] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: lol
* [11:57] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Morgaine, yup, saw, was very good!
* [11:57] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: I downloaded it and now I can't find it on my phone!
* [11:57] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: apple's fault, I'm sure
* [11:57] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Shoulda gotten a clone!
* [11:58] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: OK folks.... I guess we're winding down here
* [11:58] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Wound down I think :)
* [11:59] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: =)
* [11:59] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: take care everyone
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Great to see you all
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Have a lovely weekend!

User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2009 Dec 3

2009-12-03T20:14:21Z

Which Linden: Created page with '* [11:02] Johan Laurasia: Hello all * [11:02] Which Linden: hi! * [11:02] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Johan! * [...'

* [11:02] [[User:Johan Laurasia|Johan Laurasia]]: Hello all
* [11:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hi!
* [11:02] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hi Johan!
* [11:03] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hi Which!
* [11:03] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hiya Xugu!
* [11:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: how are things?
* [11:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: had a nice thanksgiving?
* [11:03] [[User:Johan Laurasia|Johan Laurasia]]: good, I've been playing with wings 3D for sculpts lately... finally making some headway
* [11:04] [[User:Johan Laurasia|Johan Laurasia]]: I showed up a bit late... everyone was in a turkey coma
* [11:05] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: hey there
* [11:05] [[User:Johan Laurasia|Johan Laurasia]]: Hi Enkidu
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: nice...I've always wanted to learn how to make sculpts -- the bamboo here would get a lot less prim-heavy if I could do that
* [11:05] [[User:Johan Laurasia|Johan Laurasia]]: oh yeah, definately
* [11:05] [[User:Johan Laurasia|Johan Laurasia]]: it's been slow go, but I made quite a bit of headway last night
* [11:05] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hiya Enkidu :-)
* [11:06] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: :)
* [11:06] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: hi Morgaine, everyone!
* [11:07] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Which... you were going to look into user submissions to the Library... ?
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yes!
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: And I found out that it's petra who nominally manages that
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: By nominally I mean, "it seemed like no one else is more likely"
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I meant to ask her personally but failed to
* [11:08] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Does Petra have any sort of office hour?
* [11:08] [[User:Johan Laurasia|Johan Laurasia]]: lol
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I don't think she does, but you could check
* [11:08] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: But Which, I expect you to be omniscient..
* [11:08] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: .
* [11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: There are no gods, only man!
* [11:09] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Office Hours page says no :( If you could ask her about how I do this, would be appreciated!
* [11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ok
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: what do you want to add to the library anyhow?
* [11:12] [[User:Johan Laurasia|Johan Laurasia]]: we're talking about the inventory library?
* [11:12] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah
* [11:12] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: I've got a bunch of little scripts I think everyone should have. Texture UUID dumper, prim face identification by clicks, prim counters, little knick-knacks
* [11:13] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: mmm cold coffee
* [11:13] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: morning's last bad surprise
* [11:13] [[User:Johan Laurasia|Johan Laurasia]]: the library script folder is a bit light
* [11:14] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: I can probably even throw some of the more complex stuff in too if it'll make people happy. Not entirely sure what's appropriate for the Library...
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah I dunno either -- it seems like it's just there for example content and "getting started"
* [11:14] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: goes to refresh the mug
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: my avatar however is constructed using only textures from the Library
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: flexes
* [11:15] [[User:Johan Laurasia|Johan Laurasia]]: yeah, honestly, I never even looked there, I was directed to the wiki and went from there to learn
* [11:15] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: who are you calling a mug o.O
* [11:15] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: hey Aimee!
* [11:15] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: lol, hi Aimee :-)
* [11:15] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: hi :)
* [11:16] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I actually have a nice coffee mug with a blue (well, grey/blue) kittie on it.
* [11:16] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Basically, I've got a lot of little scripts people can play with, and if it's not going to be considered overcomplicating matters I've got more complex scripts/scripted items that could go in too
* [11:16] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: And now getting coffee ...
* [11:16] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: and well done on making your avatar with library textures Which!
* [11:17] [[User:Johan Laurasia|Johan Laurasia]]: I'd like to donate an analog clock script
* [11:17] [[User:Opensource Obscure|Opensource Obscure]]: hello everybody
* [11:17] [[User:Johan Laurasia|Johan Laurasia]]: or the entire object full perm so ppl could study it
* [11:18] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: man, I wonder if there's like a museum of science-type thing already or if that's something we could start
* [11:18] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Museum of Prims
* [11:18] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: we could set up a mini-one here if you want
* [11:19] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hi OO :-)
* [11:19] [[User:Opensource Obscure|Opensource Obscure]]: : )
* [11:20] [[User:Opensource Obscure|Opensource Obscure]]: the old freebies LL store seems a good place where to put such a thing Johan
* [11:20] [[User:Opensource Obscure|Opensource Obscure]]: i can give you the lm
* [11:21] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: heh,the "original prim" would probably be worth a few lindens
* [11:21] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: which came first, the plywood or the cube?
* [11:21] [[User:Johan Laurasia|Johan Laurasia]]: the lag
* [11:21] [[User:Johan Laurasia|Johan Laurasia]]: lol
* [11:22] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: We need an SL object respository specifically marked by creators as allowing off-grid transfer of their contributions.
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yes, defniitely Which came first
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: uh...not what she said
* [11:22] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: lol
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: isn't there a Philip Linden shrine somewhere containing prims that he made?
* [11:22] [[User:Opensource Obscure|Opensource Obscure]]: yeah
* [11:23] [[User:Opensource Obscure|Opensource Obscure]]: Philip Linden Memorial Prim, Bay City - Docklands (16, 218, 24)
* [11:23] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha ha
* [11:23] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: awesome you had the landmark already
* [11:23] [[User:Opensource Obscure|Opensource Obscure]]: hey i'm a groupie
* [11:23] [[User:Johan Laurasia|Johan Laurasia]]: A customer of mine put 4 tower clocks in his build in Bay City
* [11:23] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: That's not a very complimentary name, makes it sound like he's dead :-)
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I recall seeing him inworld one time and hew as giving some demo and around him was this paperrazzi-like cluster of resis all trying to edit/take/copy whatever prim he was working on
* [11:24] [[User:Johan Laurasia|Johan Laurasia]]: I've chatted a few times with Philp, pretty laid back guy
* [11:25] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: He appears every now and then in Groupies IM. Always seems extremely level headed there.
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: alright, well I guess that's settled then
* [11:27] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hey Dzon, brilliant work, well done! https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-375
* [11:27] [[User:JIRA-helper: [#SNOW-375|JIRA-helper: [#SNOW-375]]:
* [11:27] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: thank you Morgaine. I keep adding features =)
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: neat
* [11:28] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: is currently pushing SVC-5092
* [11:28] [[User:JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-5092|JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-5092]]:
* [#SVC-5092] [[User:inventories available|inventories available]]: over WebDAV
* [11:28] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: I think the REST like interface is working really well
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: man anything that doesn't block the view of the world is a big step forward
* [11:29] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Xugu: that's an excellent idea, although of course LL is not going to implement that ever, until forced by competition. So it's really a Jira for Opensim --- great stuff!
* [11:29] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: now i can chat and watch movies here while we talk =)
* [11:29] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: Xugu's Jira makes a good topic for your area of interest actually
* [11:29] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: the webDAV stuff?
* [11:30] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yep
* [11:30] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Not the client-side, that wouldn't be up your street, but server-side issues
* [11:30] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I mean, yeah, that's definitely something that we should do; the issue I think is that the viewer does expect something pretty different rom WebDAV
* [11:31] [[User:Opensource Obscure|Opensource Obscure]]: (( dzonatas, should I get artwork & libraries from LL's branches/2009/oss-viewer ? ))
* [11:31] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: this is something that's affected the current efforts to move inventory to web services
* [11:31] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: yes
* [11:31] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: The viewer can change. Community devs don't hang about --- look at Dzon :-)
* [11:32] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah; definitely agreed that's the right architectural direction to go, regardless of whether the viewer uses it
* [11:32] [[User:Opensource Obscure|Opensource Obscure]]: (( ./develop.py configure = OK. building! ))
* [11:33] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: I'd assumed as an alternative access method, but doing everything over WebDAV could make a lot of sense....
* [11:33] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Ew, develop.py is antique .... cmake .; make !!!!
* [11:34] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Xugu: always better to use an existing mechanism wherever possible rather than inventing a new one ... build upon existing tools and stability.
* [11:34] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Even if it's not 100% optimum, still better.
* [11:34] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: OO: make secondlife-bin snowglobe-communicator snowglobe-sharp
* [11:34] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: if it doesn't
* [11:34] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Last time I looked at WebDAV, it didn't look too difficult to implement, either. I mean, not something we had time for, but there's one and a half of people in my dev team... I think LL is a bit bigger
* [11:35] [[User:Opensource Obscure|Opensource Obscure]]: morgaine, update [http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Compiling_the_viewer_(Linux)] PLZ
* [11:35] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'm sure the complicated part of implementing WebDAV inventories would be mapping it back to whatever crazy backend structure we have
* [11:36] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: knows the feeling
* [11:36] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: OO: lol, aye, updating docs would be good. And no Rob now either to help
* [11:36] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: I also suspect someone will use words like "permissions system" and "arrrrrrgh, it burns"
* [11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: "ow my face!"
* [11:36] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Xugu: what is "your team", where?
* [11:37] [[User:Opensource Obscure|Opensource Obscure]]: morgaine: Rob almost never updated the wiki in the last 12 months
* [11:38] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: dealing with the SL permissions system for interop is going to be "interesting", to say the least. It's not really going to be portable to multiple asset and inventory services.
* [11:38] [[User:Opensource Obscure|Opensource Obscure]]: afk dinner yummmmm
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: no...it's a real tricky ball of wax is what it is
* [11:38] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Morgaine, web application development as part of comp sci, at St Andrews uni
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Not quite as simple as -rw-rw-r--
* [11:39] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: "wax"? That's a very generous choice of material, I think we could find closer analogies :P
* [11:39] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: We're either part of the distributed systems group, or the networks group, or business improvements, or just not in a department. I don't ask, lest they look too closely and I don't get paid for 2 months until they forget about it
* [11:39] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Xugu: aha, cool!
* [11:40] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: lol
* [11:40] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Getting paid, now there's a concept. I need to find a way of getting paid for VWRAP work ;-)
* [11:41] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: We occaisionally try getting funding for OpenSim related stuff in education. It might happen...
* [11:41] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: people get paid for working? o.O Damn that's where I've been going wrong
* [11:42] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: :-(
* [11:42] [[User:Johan Laurasia|Johan Laurasia]]: u and me both Aimee
* [11:42] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: lol
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: You should try what I'm doing: not working but getting paid! LOL
* [11:42] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: :D
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ducks
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: JUST KIDDING
* [11:43] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: quacks
* [11:43] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: I'm working on getting there :)
* [11:43] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I guess I need to write something that people want, or go back to consultancy.
* [11:43] [[User:Melchizedek Blauvelt|Melchizedek Blauvelt]]: quoted! (just kidding too)
* [11:43] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Have a group of students doing practicals in OpenSim at the moment. Going really well, actually. Giving them like 1/8th sim each really seems to help the creativity
* [11:43] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: WHICH!!! /me prostrates in awe
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The whole sim is too much room or something?
* [11:44] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Which, I mean last time they had something like 512m each, given more space they've gone a lot more... crazy
* [11:44] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: went in to check on them and they've got a submarine and a castle,and are working on shooting each other
* [11:45] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: awesome!
* [11:45] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: (they were told to make doors)
* [11:45] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: There will probably be a paper on all this later, anyway, and I shouldn't ruin the suprise :)
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha ha
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I love that: theey were told to make doors
* [11:46] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: It's a human-computer interface course, so we figured give them a completely different interface type to try
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: This is frequently true of Second Life meetings
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I love those cartoonishly large bullets
* [11:47] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Oh, and despite hosting the server inside the firewall, IT services have still found a way of firewalling it from some of our users
* [11:49] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: That's what you payt hem for innit?
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I think we used to have a lot of firewall-related issues, but in the end they've all gotten sorted out
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: SL requires a buttload of ports and connections
* [11:50] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: It's the UDP they really hate
* [11:51] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: We're doing away with the UDP in VWRAP
* [11:51] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Good to hear. It's always seemed like it's used as a poor man's TCP by SL....
* [11:51] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: SWEET
* [11:52] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Well...actually Morgaine, how do you dispense with object updates?
* [11:52] [[User:Johan Laurasia|Johan Laurasia]]: buttload.. that's a technical term isn't it?
* [11:52] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: dispense?
* [11:52] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I mean how do you justify them going over TCP
* [11:52] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: aren't they rather required to arrive?
* [11:52] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It seems that object updates are the perfect use case for UDP
* [11:52] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: No...they aren't required to arrive
* [11:53] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It's better if they all do, but if one falls on the floor the proper response is to send the next one
* [11:53] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Rather than resending the dropped one
* [11:53] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: er, no, that's the wrong question to ask. The right question to ask is how do your justify using UDP when the semantics of SL data transfer are totally unrelated to the semantics of UDP.
* [11:54] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ? The semantics of object positional updates are congurent with the semantics of UDP
* [11:54] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: congruent
* [11:54] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: only intersticial ones, as a heuristic. Movement in SL is *NOT* optional.
* [11:54] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: It's a common fallacy.
* [11:55] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Right, the interstitial updates that happen continually
* [11:55] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Sure you can sent interstitial UDP packets in idle time, but those would be additional. The primary movement has to be reliable.
* [11:55] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It has to be eventually consistent
* [11:55] [[User:Johan Laurasia|Johan Laurasia]]: well udp is faster, and more suited for streaming hence the reason for it's use over tcp.
* [11:56] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: UDP would merely provide fill-in for finer granularity. It should never carry primary data that has to be reliable.
* [11:56] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Johan: UDP is *NOT* faster. That's a common misconception.
* [11:56] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: saw something freaky once, which was an alternative to UDP that didn't even guarantee the packet would arrive undamaged or not, on the principal that a damaged packet was likely to be closer to correct than nothing
* [11:57] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: UDP is actually slower, because the stack hasn't been so optimized as TCP's as a result of a decade of HTTP.
* [11:57] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hm, interesting concept Xugu
* [11:57] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: UDP is faster if you don't then build all the TCP stuff on top of it. FLow control, in-order delivery, guaranteed delivery, etc. Cases where you can skip those are very rare, though
* [11:57] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: really? I can only imagine that making sense in the context of delivering reliable content
* [11:58] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I believe that all VOIP is UDP, for example
* [11:58] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Now I have to check that belief
* [11:58] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Which, don't forget flow control! Don't want the connection getting flooded accidentally...
* [11:58] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: [http://www.voipplanet.com/backgrounders/article.php/3495186]
* [11:58] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: It's also a fallacy to say that "SL uses UDP" as transport. SL uses a proprietary circuits protocol that happens to be layered on top of UDP. The efficiency gain of using UDP is lost because you have to go through the circuits layer, which itself is not as highly honed as the equivalent TCP.
* [11:58] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha first google result: an article entitled "why tcp/ip is not sufficient for voip"
* [11:59] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: yup, VOIP is generally UDP
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: yeah definitely agreed that what we've got now is the worst of both worlds
* [11:59] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: SCTP is tailor made for VoIP. TCP is indeed not sufficnet.
* [11:59] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: which makes it about as much of a nightmare for getting through firewalls :D
* [12:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Heh...well my major thought is that while TCP will probalby have better characteristics than circuits, it seems that a proper UDP implementation would blow the doors off of either
* [12:00] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Anyway, we'll see. We're going to have to experiment with TCP-based transport before we know all the ins and outs for object updates.
* [12:01] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: unfortunately there is no "proper UDP" implementation. I'm actually rather surprised that LL hasn't made a workgroup for it at IETF.
* [12:01] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Any idea of timeline for HTTP textures BTW? Seems Babbage has been working on it for years...
* [12:01] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: It would be very interesting
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I don't know what's up with HTTP textures, it has been in the works for years as you say
* [12:02] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Xugu: Babbage? On textures? Don't think so.
* [12:03] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Morgaine, Babbage does a lot of web service stuff, or oversees it at least, as well as scripting
* [12:03] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Interesting. Don't recall him mentioning it at OHs, I'll have to ask next time.
* [12:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Not sure who's on the project now, but you're right that it may not be Babbage (if he was ever on that)
* [12:03] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Could have sworn he was talking about working on it at his hour...
* [12:04] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: the map stuff in Snowglobe is basically the first stage of it
* [12:04] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yeah
* [12:04] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: so Merov would be the good one to ask
* [12:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah, the viewer side of it is pretty easy IIRC -- the tricky part is getting around the fact that the simulator currently throttles textures and that doing them over HTTP would dramatically change network load
* [12:05] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: I must run. Thanks for hosting Which, good seeing you everyone!
* [12:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yes I should go too
* [12:05] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: But maps are a special case, there's no sim-driven update stream, it's pure GET.
* [12:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: And all the GETs go to S3, not our servers >:-)
* [12:05] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Aye
* [12:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Great discussion folks!
* [12:05] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: yeah, and they're not being got from LL :)
* [12:05] [[User:Johan Laurasia|Johan Laurasia]]: TC Which, and thanks
* [12:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Talk to you next week!
*

User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2009 Nov 19

2009-11-19T20:11:36Z

Which Linden: Created page with '''Due to an accident involving a beer can and too many flux capacitors, the timestamps for this conversation have been replaced by 00:00.'' * [00:00] [[User:Kopilo Hallard|Kopil...'

''Due to an accident involving a beer can and too many flux capacitors, the timestamps for this conversation have been replaced by 00:00.''

* [00:00] [[User:Kopilo Hallard|Kopilo Hallard]]: xD
* [00:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hello!
* [00:00] [[User:Kopilo Hallard|Kopilo Hallard]]: hi
* [00:00] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: Hi!
* [00:00] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: a jumping bamboo plant
* [00:00] [[User:Kopilo Hallard|Kopilo Hallard]]: Kopilo Hallard makes a sandcastle with his hands
* [00:00] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hiya Which!
* [00:00] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hi Dahlia, Enkidu :-)
* [00:00] [[User:Kopilo Hallard|Kopilo Hallard]]: of course Dzonatas we can never be sure of gender here though :p
* [00:00] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: Hi :)
* [00:00] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hi Elb!
* [00:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: jello Which, Enkidu
* [00:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hello even lol
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yello!
* [00:00] [[User:Elbereth Witte|Elbereth Witte]]: hello lindens and dinovas and such
* [00:00] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: Eunich... ok so... SL isn't being fair when it only allows male or female... we need EUNICH too
* [00:00] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: OK, let's see, why did the shiny new Imprudence 1.2.0 release fail to even boot ... both betas were better than that!
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I kinda thought that the ken-doll male *was* a eunuch
* [00:00] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: hi everyone
* [00:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: never heard his voice, so could not tell lol
* [00:00] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: just not prepared, which.... but with hope
* [00:00] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: How goes Enki?
* [00:00] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: pretty good!
* [00:00] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Latif, you're a cloud to me. Everyone else rezzed immediately
* [00:00] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: I see Latif
* [00:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i was wondering if you had a token "i get to annoy residents this month" that passes around linden lab as a badge of honour lol?
* [00:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: and collosus won this month?
* [00:00] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Everyone else see Latif too?
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: la-who?
* [00:00] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I see you now Latif
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yes I see latif
* [00:00] [[User:Kopilo Hallard|Kopilo Hallard]]: Kopilo Hallard sees latif
* [00:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i guess Colossus Linden, won the honour for this month :P
* [00:00] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Socrates was here briefly
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: orly? I'm sitting right behind colossus, what should I throw at him?
* [00:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: something hard and heavy
* [00:00] [[User:Elbereth Witte|Elbereth Witte]]: lead kitten?
* [00:00] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: I think Cyn passed him the booby stick from last month. Just snatch it away and throw it out the window :-)
* [00:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: for charging $L99 to list opensource scripts and stuff on xstreet
* [00:00] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Latif, without an alternative site for freebies, which is what really gets me
* [00:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: and claiming that it cost $5USD a year to keep one db entry lol
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha ha, that's just what we charge him for his database rows :-)
* [00:00] [[User:Kopilo Hallard|Kopilo Hallard]]: xD
* [00:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i have two freebies on Xstreet and now Colossus want me to pay $10 USD a year for that, that's beyond nicke & diming
* [00:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: even for Linden Lab lol
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: "more like five and ten dollaring"
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hah.....well I don't know much about that policy change but I'll pass the feedback along
* [00:00] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: I'll probably be pulling my items, I dont get frequent enough sales
* [00:00] [[User:Kopilo Hallard|Kopilo Hallard]]: while charging for resources being used does have some justification... yeah
* [00:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: pass it in a form of a phone book dropped on his head, perhaps that will wake him up lol
* [00:00] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: What gets me is the complete misrepresentation of what freebies represent in SL. Jeez, that was so wrong. I find it hard to believe he passed it through anyone else in LL.
* [00:00] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Latif, a lot of it is about reducing the number of items on XStreetSL, so it's not exactly a side-effect. Howeever, lack of a replacement is fairly dumb IMHO
* [00:00] [[User:Kopilo Hallard|Kopilo Hallard]]: I won't be listing items on xstreet if it goes ahead
* [00:00] [[User:Kopilo Hallard|Kopilo Hallard]]: I'll list on apez, simple cost differences
* [00:00] [[User:Elbereth Witte|Elbereth Witte]]: I'd think being able to conveniently access items to buy would pay for itsself in residents coming back to SL
* [00:00] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: Does XStreetSL have a facebook plugin?
* [00:00] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Anyone got the URL of that blog post?
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: well I shot him with a nerf gun, if that makes you happy
* [00:00] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/commerce/blog/2009/11/18/roadmap--managing-freebies-on-xstreet-sl
* [00:00] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Tnx Xu
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: this may escalate into a full out war
* [00:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yeah, our search engine sucks, lets fix it buy charging opesource and freebie people out... in related news, google decided to remove clutter from the web by giving up on their search engine and licensed the revolutionary new method from linden lab that removes indexing of free sites because of all the searh result clutter wikipedia was causing. from now on, only rupert murdochs behind paywal sites will be indexed
* [00:00] [[User:Elbereth Witte|Elbereth Witte]]: how many nerf darts = 1 lead kitten?
* [00:00] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: np Morgaine. And Which, I think you just made about 90% of the SL population's day with your nerf gun :)
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: heh
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: happy to contribute to mayhem
* [00:00] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: lol
* [00:00] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: we're going to make a killing on all that google traffic!
* [00:00] [[User:Kopilo Hallard|Kopilo Hallard]]: xD
* [00:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: I'm mostly upset that Colossus and Pink linden try to insult our intelligence claiming that they need $5USD a year to cover a cost of listing...
* [00:00] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: well, its good in that its a new venue compared to the usual bank on ad-sense
* [00:00] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Latif is it listing, or bandwidth & server maintenance? Storage is easy, keeping it somewhere people can get to reliably trickier....
* [00:00] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Xugu Madison is going to be quiet while she isn't on too many hitlists....
* [00:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Xugu, 5 million usd cost of running a server with 1 million listings? give me a break
* [00:00] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: lol
* [00:00] [[User:Elbereth Witte|Elbereth Witte]]: theres supposed to be a certain economy of scale with servers and itsy bitsy bits of data
* [00:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: or give a million and i will do it, and you get to save 80%
* [00:00] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: It's this line that annoyed me ... "Listings for free items will now be treated as a marketing/promotional tool". It completely misses the point of free items for encouraging new recruits, for teaching developers, for supporting the community in general, and as a matter of principle for the open source / Creative commons community. It's just so completely wrong and blinkered.
* [00:00] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: maybe the concern is spam from free items, not that they are free
* [00:00] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: I learned initially from a few free scripts and items
* [00:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i swear, they play this game, who gets to annoy resi's most this month, and colossus won some internal award or something
* [00:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: so he gets to do it this month
* [00:00] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: possibily a 'featured' free item catalogue could reduce the spam.
* [00:00] [[User:Kopilo Hallard|Kopilo Hallard]]: you are only counting the charges for storage... if you sell items for actual linden, say 1L you get whammed twice
* [00:00] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Oh! Which! Is there any way residents can contribute to the default Library?
* [00:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i have no other logical explanation :P
* [00:00] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Looked like it. I think it's a baton they pass. Cyn just finished her leg 'round the course, passed it to Colossus.
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Xugu: not directly. it's curated and a pain in the ass
* [00:00] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: ship freebies dehydrated and shrink wrapped to save storage space? Just dunk them in sim water on delivery
* [00:00] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Please don't stand anywhere near Colossus when he looks ready to pass the baton again!
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but certainly new stuff gets into the library on occasion
* [00:00] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: Dahlia Trimble wonders if anyone else is working on http based viewer protocols
* [00:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: who is next, which perhaps? :P is that why I'm getting these today? [http://imagebin.ca/view/Jj3nQgbQ.html]
* [00:00] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: novel moonlight
* [00:00] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Which, any idea who I could poke about adding stuff to it?
* [00:00] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: oops wrong window :/
* [00:00] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Dahlia: VWRAP :-)
* [00:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Latif Khalifa wonders what Which is going to do once he gets it lol
* [00:00] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: Morgaine, I mean one that's actually going to be implemented ;)
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'll ask Xugu
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: in unrelated news, we actually made use of the new transactions page being uuids today
* [00:00] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: transactions page?
* [00:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: what button did you press to get transactions to fail today? :P
* [00:00] [[User:Kopilo Hallard|Kopilo Hallard]]: :O
* [00:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: did you press that red button again? :D
* [00:00] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Dahlia: I think VWRAP might get implemented. What I'm not sure about is whether anyone will use it. Opensim and realXtend and Cable Beach maymake VWRAP obsolete before it's even nearing completion.
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: we made a change to the underlying db schema that might have changed sequential ids, but no one noticed because they're not sequential any more :-)
* [00:00] [[User:Elbereth Witte|Elbereth Witte]]: the any key prolly works just as well
* [00:00] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: awesome
* [00:00] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: oh transaction ids on the account pages on the web site?
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: L$ transaction ids
* [00:00] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: Dahlia Trimble doesnt look often, poor sales :/
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha ha, all I have in my history are 0 L$ purchases for that escrow demo over there
* [00:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: next, they're going to charge $L20 for looking at the page, so don't look to often :P
* [00:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: and sine group im is so overloading the systems $L100 per group im :)
* [00:00] [[User:Kopilo Hallard|Kopilo Hallard]]: and $5 for every new object you rez
* [00:00] [[User:Kopilo Hallard|Kopilo Hallard]]: >_> <_<
* [00:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: in the meanwhile you can check group chat status at [http://IsSLGroupChatStillBroken.com/] :D
* [00:00] [[User:Elbereth Witte|Elbereth Witte]]: why not just put an avater blood extractor in the library?
* [00:00] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: I see ID Prefix
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yep!
* [00:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Dahlia, you work with git, they toook a hint from there :P
* [00:00] [[User:Kopilo Hallard|Kopilo Hallard]]: LOL
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: heh......the group chat idea isn't half bad :-)
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Which Linden pipes all revenue to his alt
* [00:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: do we get a discount for praising the wisdom od dear leader, M Linden :P
* [00:00] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: I kinda liked the sequential reveision numbers that SVN had
* [00:00] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: Aimee Trescothick is still expecting to see a Linden Bakery opening soon, got to be money in it with all these avatars baking
* [00:00] [[User:Kopilo Hallard|Kopilo Hallard]]: mm baked goods
* [00:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Latif Khalifa is expecting Joey "the pitbull" Linden to show up at his store offering to sell "protection" :P
* [00:00] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: Just hope the L$ for features doesn't slow down their implementation
* [00:00] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: most of my transactions are freebees lol
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah I also miss sequential svn revision numbers, but then again I also don't miss waiting an hour for a checkout to finish
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: too many alsos in that sentence
* [00:00] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: LL™ is using git too?
* [00:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: mercurial
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: man I love unicode!
* [00:00] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: havent used Hg
* [00:00] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: there is a hg to git plugin for hg
* [00:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: get unicode consortium to make a codepoint for $L lol
* [00:00] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: lol
* [00:00] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: i've been using hg lately and it's been great
* [00:00] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: not too different from git really
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah, git seems needlessly complicated to me, though I do like some of the things it does
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: like the change tracking across files
* [00:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: git doesn't do folder tracking, which brings back bad flashbacks frm cvs days
* [00:00] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: [http://hg-git.github.com/]
* [00:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: does hg do folders?
* [00:00] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: no
* [00:00] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: that irritates me too
* [00:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: what's wrong with does people
* [00:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: those
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hg does paths rather than folders, which is essentially the same as doing folders in 99% of cases
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: the exception being committing empty folders
* [00:00] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: yeah
* [00:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yeah, big exception
* [00:00] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: that's a better description
* [00:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: and no properties on folders either
* [00:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: if they set out to improve on svn, why go back to some cvs problems that svn has solved
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: no properties on anything
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: well.....properties in my opinion are a good concept but awful in practice
* [00:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: so we're back to .cvsignore style files poluting the source?
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'd much rather have a dotfile that I can edit in a regular editor than some magic invisible property that no one knows how to see and doesn't merge properly
* [00:00] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: yeah
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: like, if only svn implemented merges for properties I'd not hate them
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but as it is, it's not at all uncommon to end up with a tree that builds, every file is correct, but there are conflicts on some files
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: and you're all "WTF??? oh crap it's a property conflict"
* [00:00] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: git-pull can make it well worth not worrying about those properties
* [00:00] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: multiple branches instead of multiple folders
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: and to resolve the conflict you have to *check out another copy* inspect the other copy for the correct value, then manually copy that into the propedit window.....grrr
* [00:00] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: yeah, i do like git's branching
* [00:00] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: haven't tried it in hg yet
* [00:00] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: i imagine it's more or less the same
* [00:00] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: only problem I have with git is sometimes it doesnt tell me what it's doing
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I hate that, I'm all like "who left the cover of the mayonnaise" and git is all watching tv with a guilty look on its face
* [00:00] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: I've made one unintended commit to opensim because of that
* [00:00] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: the one thing that bugs me about get is the git-amend.... it should be able to detect when a branch has been amended but not pushed... rrrr
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: what is the semantic meaning of amending something?
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: how's that different than a commit?
* [00:00] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: an amend is like to update the previous commit, it essentially overwrites it
* [00:00] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: it's like git-commit-my-bad
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha ha ok that's pretty useful
* [00:00] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: but if one doesn't push the amended commit correctly, then the it could mess-up upstream
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: when I need to do that I do an hg rollback and then redo the commit with the change
* [00:00] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: hmm, i haven't been in that situation yet
* [00:00] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: on account of all my commits being the height of perfection
* [00:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: real programmers don't do revert or rollback
* [00:00] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: real programmers never need to :)
* [00:00] [[User:Elbereth Witte|Elbereth Witte]]: real programmers only commit once in an entire project :-)
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so true.....I, uh, heard about these features from a friend
* [00:00] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: but hypothetically, if i pushed a changeset upstream and wanted to roll it back, how would that work?
* [00:00] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: it just teaches us to make a new branch instead of an amend
* [00:00] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: real programmers have no need for revision control
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: once you've pushed it's permanent
* [00:00] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: then once the branch is perfected, then git-pull to master
* [00:00] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: git-push master upstream
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I guess it's not completely permanent if you can get to the upstream repo and roll it back before anyone pulls from it
* [00:00] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: git-amend is for those that don't want to make a new branch
* [00:00] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: yeah i thought so
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I believe that it would be possible using the mq plugin to excise commits that are in the middle of a thign
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: in the middle of a series of commits
* [00:00] [[User:HD -|HD -]]: couch sit 1: llStopAnimation: Script trying to stop animations but agent not found
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: in case you wanted to do that
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so uh, yeah, dvcs ftw
* [00:00] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: tar cf - | uucp remote
* [00:00] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: ...so, is there a summary of all that for those of us with attention span issues? :)
* [00:00] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: "hg and git are fancy"
* [00:00] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Any recommendations on one vs the other?
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: "fancy like sauerkraut"
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: we obviously prefer hg
* [00:00] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: and git is hard to learn
* [00:00] [[User:Elbereth Witte|Elbereth Witte]]: and have nothing to do with the grid APIs?
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: it'd be cool if you could use hg to version your lsl
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: FEATURE GET!
* [00:00] [[User:Elbereth Witte|Elbereth Witte]]: exposing the SL database as a filesystem for eyeryone would be trouble :-)
* [00:00] [[User:Luisa Bourgoin|Luisa Bourgoin]]: actually I just would like to get grep for scripts inside Inv.
* [00:00] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: how to version the already many scripts... hmmm
* [00:00] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: what is the unique path name... script name + date?
* [00:00] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: asset id wouldn't work sense it would change each commit
* [00:00] [[User:Luisa Bourgoin|Luisa Bourgoin]]: some Index (personal only) that you could add scripts too
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: the in-viewer IDE
* [00:00] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: personally i don't think the difference between git and hg is so dramatic that i'd say not to use one or the other
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: uh, dude, git uses PERL
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: just throwing that out there ;-)
* [00:00] [[User:Elbereth Witte|Elbereth Witte]]: and is the spawn of torvalds
* [00:00] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: perl/php has hit the end of its era
* [00:00] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Xugu Madison 's always wanted a revsiion controlled virtual world, so you can time travel:)
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but yeah if I were being honest and not jokey I'd agree that they're quite close
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: it's certainly a lot more a hurdle moving from SVN to *any* DVCS than moving from one DVCS to another
* [00:00] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: word
* [00:00] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Seriously? I moved all my personal projects from SVN to hg in a morning recently, most of which I spend finding out why the web server wouldn't talk to me...
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I guess that was The W0rd™
* [00:00] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: wr0d
* [00:00] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: While hg vs git seemed a bigger difference, from what I've seen so far...
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hm but the menatl model of push/pull is quite a big change in my experience
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: it could be that's not representative, or that Xugu you are already mentally prepared
* [00:00] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Ah, more a psychological leap than technical?
* [00:00] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: RL time, bye all :)
* [00:00] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Seeya Dahlia!
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I guess it's time for me to go too
* [00:00] [[User:Dzonatas Sol|Dzonatas Sol]]: tc dahlia
* [00:00] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: me too
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: thanks all, had a grat time
* [00:00] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Xugu Madison works heavily in distributed systems, probably helps
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: *great
* [00:00] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: thanks for hosting Which & Enkidu!
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah Xugu you're the exception that proves the rule :-)
* [00:00] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: <-- not the host
* [00:00] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Which, if you can find out about the library I'd love to know :)
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: will get back to you
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: on that
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: when I find out
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: :-0
* [00:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: :-)

User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2009 Nov 12

2009-11-12T20:16:21Z

Which Linden: Created page with '''Note: I crashed at this point, and didn't have my viewer configured to save all local chat to disk, so if someone who was there has the full transcript, please feel free to add...'

''Note: I crashed at this point, and didn't have my viewer configured to save all local chat to disk, so if someone who was there has the full transcript, please feel free to add it here.''

* [11:55] [[User:Fury Rosewood|Fury Rosewood]]: nah
* [11:55] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: vista, yes, audio in general is difficult in linux, the addition of closed-source components doesnt improve the experience
* [11:55] [[User:Vista Questi|Vista Questi]]: I've learned to live with it
* [11:55] [[User:Fury Rosewood|Fury Rosewood]]: wihtout people paying for stuff to run sl, sl would pretty much crumble, its kinda a symboitic relationship
* [11:55] [[User:Vista Questi|Vista Questi]]: it varies wildly with the viewer one chooses or so I hae noticed
* [11:56] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: which, the viewer is giving you trouble?
* [11:56] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: it's hard to say -- I think my macbook overheated
* [11:56] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: vista, yeah, there are a few versions of SLVoice
* [11:56] [[User:Vista Questi|Vista Questi]]: or for voice chat? i don't remember anymore
* [11:56] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: that occasionally happens due to the flash plugin though too
* [11:56] [[User:Vista Questi|Vista Questi]]: i have pretty much given it up for voice chat
* [11:56] [[User:Vista Questi|Vista Questi]]: meerkat is strange with sound
* [11:56] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Poppy, what do you do at the lab?
* [11:56] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: yes, it depends on the sound system in use, version thereof, SL in use, version thereof, SLVoice inuse, etc :)
* [11:57] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: i work on backend data services
* [11:57] [[User:Vista Questi|Vista Questi]]: if i have to, i have a dual boot lapie for the voice stuffs
* [11:57] [[User:Ardy Lay|Ardy Lay]]: Poppy lights up dark spaces. :-)
* [11:57] [[User:Vista Questi|Vista Questi]]: no complaints, not really
* [11:57] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: much like which; i'm on his team
* [11:57] [[User:Fury Rosewood|Fury Rosewood]]: poppy has a flashlight :(
* [11:57] [[User:Fury Rosewood|Fury Rosewood]]: its nice
* [11:57] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i like that kind work too
* [11:57] [[User:Fury Rosewood|Fury Rosewood]]: i just do not want to be introduced to the business end of it anytime soon
* [11:57] [[User:Vista Questi|Vista Questi]]: most of the time i can figure out that it's a linux problem or something with vivox, which points to the same place, anyway
* [11:57] [[User:Vista Questi|Vista Questi]]: fail
* [11:58] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: much of the glue in the backend is written with python, right?
* [11:58] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: most recently i was spotted generating histograms of backend databse traffic rates from simulators, for instance :P
* [11:58] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: Latif, most of the backend is written in programming languages.
* [11:58] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: do sims still make mysql proto direct connections?
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: heh in the endgame it'd be all written in python, but for now there's still a distressing amount in C++
* [11:59] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: Latif, depends what you mean by "sims" ;)
* [11:59] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: Which, I wouldn't say that at all
* [11:59] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: i think the endgame is "nobody cares, everything works"
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: we disagree about whether it's distressing or not? :-P
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: heh ok fair enough
* [11:59] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: simulator host machines, do they use libmysql proto to connect to the db, or is it all moved over to some http rest-ish connection to data services?
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: that is a good point
* [12:00] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: so how do the different viewers affect that traffic, poppy?
* [12:00] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: Latif FUNNY YOU SHOULD ASK
* [12:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
* [12:00] [[User:Wut Moorlord|Wut Moorlord]]: xD
* [12:00] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: waves hands and vanishes
* [12:00] [[User:Vista Questi|Vista Questi]]: hee hee
* [12:00] [[User:Vista Questi|Vista Questi]]: time's up! and
* [12:00] [[User:Vista Questi|Vista Questi]]: i've never known a linden to be anything but prompt!
* [12:00] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: well
* [12:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: lol
* [12:01] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: it's like this
* [12:01] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: i've been trying to deploy code that does that for a good part of the last year
* [12:01] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: ah
* [12:01] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: so i picked the right guy/ghost to ask :D
* [12:01] [[User:Wut Moorlord|Wut Moorlord]]: but?
* [12:01] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: it impacts the transfer rates greatly
* [12:02] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: as in, a mildly higher-that-average loaded sim will death-spiral into failtown.
* [12:02] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i see
* [12:02] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: so the next step is to move to asynchronous communications
* [12:02] [[User:Vista Questi|Vista Questi]]: meerkat here loads textures terribly, if at ALL~! :9
* [12:02] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: (yes, it's currently blocking)
* [12:02] [[User:Vista Questi|Vista Questi]]: :(
* [12:02] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i've noticed
* [12:02] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: *well*
* [12:02] [[User:Vista Questi|Vista Questi]]: why?
* [12:02] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lot of sim code is blocking it seems
* [12:03] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: *inventory* should be a different story
* [12:03] [[User:Vista Questi|Vista Questi]]: is it a bad client somehow?
* [12:03] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: because it's moving to AIS
* [12:03] [[User:Vista Questi|Vista Questi]]: covers his eyes and pretends to understand
* [12:04] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: but anyway, which here actually helped me come up with a strategy for async communications that isn't dependent on switching to http wire protocols, so that can happen independently
* [12:04] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i know that sim <=> viewer inventory was switched back to UDP after WebFetchInventoryDescandats cap "burned down the inventory servers" as one Linden put it :D It was fetching data too fast
* [12:04] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: well
* [12:04] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: that goes into the fallibility of python :)
* [12:04] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hahaha
* [12:04] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: TURNS OUT IT'S SLOW
* [12:04] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: ;)
* [12:04] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: anyway
* [12:04] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: it's dog slow
* [12:04] [[User:Wut Moorlord|Wut Moorlord]]: OMG SRSLY?! xD
* [12:05] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: it is in fact running a little late for this shindig, no?
* [12:05] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: but i'll show up to these office hours in the future, feel free to bug me on a slow news day
* [12:05] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i'd like to hear about this async system on some OH if you guys feel like talking about it
* [12:05] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: well, i haven't written it yet
* [12:05] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: :)
* [12:05] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hehe
* [12:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah it's a little late but it seemed you had some knowledge to dorp on us
* [12:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: *drop
* [12:05] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: sounds interesting
* [12:06] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: i have been known to dorp as well.
* [12:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah dude, thanks for sharing!
* [12:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: heh!
* [12:06] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: np
* [12:06] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
* [12:06] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: as a side note,
* [12:06] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: this office hour makes a lot more sense to chat at than the open source office hours
* [12:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: since neither you nor I work on open source code? :-)
* [12:07] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: well, and that's really viewer focused
* [12:07] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which's karma brings up good stuff to the surface :D
* [12:07] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: well, we work almost exclusively on open source code in some ways :P
* [12:07] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: async is of particular interest to me :D
* [12:07] [[User:Vista Questi|Vista Questi]]: that's some hope, then. <g>
* [12:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: heh, ok, with that, we shall resume next week
* [12:08] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: hot
* [12:08] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: since UDP was tried for that sort of thign, but that brings a lot of trouble with it, http-ish sort is not really well suited for async
* [12:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: does anyone have a transcript of the first part of the OH?
* [12:08] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: so it would be interesteting to hear what you two have dreamed up :D
* [12:08] [[User:Vista Questi|Vista Questi]]: asynch keytrokes back again would be nice
* [12:09] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: vista, don't even get me started on that ;)
* [12:09] [[User:Vista Questi|Vista Questi]]: it burns my human
* [12:09] [[User:Vista Questi|Vista Questi]]: a 100wpm typis
* [12:09] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hehe
* [12:09] [[User:Vista Questi|Vista Questi]]: to not be able to communicate in that way
* [12:09] [[User:Vista Questi|Vista Questi]]: im sorryi i ididn't kjnow i was opening drama
* [12:10] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i can't type faster than my fps, so it's a non-issue for me haha
* [12:10] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: naw, not drama, just engineering ire :)
* [12:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: *excitement*
* [12:10] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: anyway, ttyl ppl~
* [12:10] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: !
* [12:10] [[User:Vista Questi|Vista Questi]]: like any furry.. i mean, like me, i've learned to adapt to the adjustments, such as they are. :)
* [12:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: l8rs!
* [12:10] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: take care Poppy, happy coding :D
* [12:10] [[User:Wut Moorlord|Wut Moorlord]]: see you later

User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2009 Nov 5

2009-11-05T20:08:19Z

Which Linden: Created page with '* [11:01] Arawn Spitteler: wonders if Enkidu is any relationto Enki * [11:01] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Moon, Latif --- hi all :-) *...'

* [11:01] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: wonders if Enkidu is any relationto Enki
* [11:01] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hi Moon, Latif --- hi all :-)
* [11:01] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hey enkidu, the master of the interwebtubes
* [11:01] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: hey guys
* [11:01] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: HAI bluekitty
* [11:01] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hi Enk
* [11:01] [[User:Clexor Denfu|Clexor Denfu]]: hello
* [11:01] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hey which
* [11:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yello!
* [11:01] [[User:Moon Metty|Moon Metty]]: hi Enkidu, Which :)
* [11:01] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hiya lone :-)
* [11:01] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: something is seriously killing my viewer here, i'm at below 10 fps now
* [11:02] [[User:Moon Metty|Moon Metty]]: i have 27 fps
* [11:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: sorry that was me, I had a burrito
* [11:02] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hahah
* [11:02] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: likes hovering around four of five fps, which nothing can slow
* [11:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: "I'm already at rock bottom!"
* [11:02] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: brb
* [11:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I can't seem to get any higher than 10 on my mac
* [11:03] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: if you think your fps cannot get any lower -- you're wrong ;)
* [11:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: This sort of conversation makes me think of the old IRC quotes on bash.org where people talk about their uptimes
* [11:03] [[User:Moon Metty|Moon Metty]]: hi Ardy :)
* [11:03] [[User:Ardy Lay|Ardy Lay]]: Hi
* [11:03] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: I've heard of one person at One FPS
* [11:03] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hiya Which :-)
* [11:04] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: i got 30000 fps here
* [11:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: And invariably they're measured in days. Now I don't care about uptime because it's measured in years.
* [11:04] [[User:Moon Metty|Moon Metty]]: lol frames per day
* [11:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: heh
* [11:04] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hahah
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So we finally got a viewer dev to look at that bug we were discussing a few weeks ago
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The duplicate payments bug
* [11:07] [[User:Moon Metty|Moon Metty]]: for uploads?
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: SVC-4637
* [11:07] [[User:JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4637|JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4637]]:
* [#SVC-4637] [[User:Payments -|Payments -]]: Pay on pie menu sometimes pays twice
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So that should hopefully enter development soon. (I should say it's entered viewe triage)
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: We have high latency in our development organization, but reasonable throughput
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Other interesting facts: mysql database connection overhead is not free!
* [11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It adds about 20% overhead overall
* [11:09] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
* [11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: rleative to connection pooling
* [11:09] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: hello everyone!
* [11:09] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: tcp handshake is expensive too, not to mention such high level thing as db connection
* [11:10] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: especially for hit-and-run kind of tasks
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hm true -- it may be the case that mysql handshake adds little to the TCP handshake
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Connection overhead is ~ .39 ms
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: For mysql on our system -- not sure what it would be for TCP (I should find out)
* [11:11] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: on the other hand, there only so many concurrent db connections a server can handle
* [11:11] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which what is ping time between the two?
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Not sure
* [11:12] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: tcp alone takes 3 round trips
* [11:12] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: That is on localhost
* [11:12] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The .39 ms is
* [11:12] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: then tcp should not add any additional latency, that's pure mysql
* [11:12] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I guess so!
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: well actually....hm
* [11:13] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: TCP shouldn't be needed, since any commercial transaction needs its own bug checking
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh NM, yueah, you're right, it's all MySQL
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Wow I can't type
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Not sure what you mean Arawn, I don't think anyone uses TCP as a means to avoid checking input
* [11:15] [[User:Clexor Denfu|Clexor Denfu]]: accepted your inventory offer.
* [11:15] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: you can connct to tcp in two ways, local named pipe (unix socket) or tcp, nothing else ;)
* [11:15] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: to mysql
* [11:16] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: A major problem in SL, is the use of UDP, which does no error checking, instead of TCP, which checks for errors. In a financial transaction, accounting procedures should already contain the error checks.
* [11:16] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: It's one area, where UDP would be safe
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Well the issue with UDP is actually more about flow control, though the checksumming is definitely a bonus
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: But if you're downloading a few megabytes of rows you want to use a flow/deduplication/retrying algorithm that's been developed for 30 years
* [11:18] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: yeah good point about unix sockets, using those for the benchmark would eliminate all TCP connection overhead (not that we really care what subsystem is at fault -- the point is still the same :-)
* [11:19] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: do you use standard libmysql?
* [11:19] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: they're a bit strange when it comes to that ;)
* [11:19] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: if
* [11:19] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: if you specify "localhost" to libmysql it will actually use unix socket instead of a tcp connection
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: We use MySQLdb which is a python wrapper around the standard lib
* [11:20] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: ah
* [11:21] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: uptimes XD [http://g.nfx.dk/2009/0922/IMG_1406.JPG] (at my work)
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Nice!
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Way to go FreeBSD!
* [11:22] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: hehe yeah we like :D
* [11:22] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hope it's not extermally accesible :D
* [11:22] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: the photo was taken before it was powered down and migrated to a vm image
* [11:23] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh man, a more civilized weapon for a more civilized age
* [11:23] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: but 10 years without a reboot is impressive, nontheless
* [11:23] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: and i dont think that domain even exists anymore, thats like 3 mergers back in company history XD
* [11:23] [[User:Moon Metty|Moon Metty]]: indeed
* [11:23] [[User:Moon Metty|Moon Metty]]: nice doomsday device
* [11:24] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: which, you are mostly working on sim <=> backend stuff, right?
* [11:24] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: and we had the classic "billing server enclosed inside a drywall" aswell
* [11:25] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: and sorry if i highjacked topic, ill just shut up agian
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: yeah, which is why I don't generally talk about what I'm working on -- I don't have much that's publically shareable
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I guess I was working on the transactions page
* [11:26] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: it must be hell trying to remember what you can and what cant be talked about
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Where "working on" means "yelling at Enkidu"
* [11:26] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: haha
* [11:26] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i was wondering how is it going with moveing stuff over to caps in viewer <=> sim domain
* [11:26] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: i just turned the volume on my headset way down
* [11:26] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: my sound is evne muted
* [11:26] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: much easier :p
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Verdict on the new transactions page? Looks ok?
* [11:27] [[User:Moon Metty|Moon Metty]]: it looks ok to me
* [11:27] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: moving things to caps is going slowly -- it's not someone's job to do that, so it happens opportunistically
* [11:27] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i see caps get enabled, and then prompty disabled lol
* [11:27] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Heh yeah that's how we deploy them
* [11:27] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: like WebFetchInventoryDescendants
* [11:27] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: On off on off
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Moon: I think you mispelled "totally awesome" :-P
* [11:28] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: makes downloading inv fast, but someone mentioned that it burned down inv mysql servers when it got turned on lol
* [11:28] [[User:Moon Metty|Moon Metty]]: hahaha
* [11:28] [[User:Moon Metty|Moon Metty]]: well, i'm not an expert Which
* [11:28] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: So, Caps get their on and off bits ant how many Baud?
* [11:28] [[User:Moon Metty|Moon Metty]]: but i asked Roberto, and he thought it is cool
* [11:29] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: takes it to the bank
* [11:29] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: Which, so will this mean, that it wont drop transactions anymore?
* [11:29] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So yeah the inventory thing, that is eventually destined to go on again, it was turned on briefly to investigate server load
* [11:29] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: or is sthis chnage purely cosmetic?
* [11:29] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Enkidu, now make secondlife.com perform better than geoities, and you can take it to the bank ;)
* [11:30] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Ionetorus: uh... well one part of the system should behave better in that regard, we didn't fix everything at once
* [11:30] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: i actually am working on that
* [11:30] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: great
* [11:30] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: one of my friends has the problem, that he has so high volume of transactions that even the excel has been incomplete at times
* [11:30] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: also missing description texts
* [11:30] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i want to have that problem too!
* [11:30] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: orly....your friend should chunk up his downloads by the hour
* [11:31] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: yeah, he dl 4 times a day now
* [11:31] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: he should switch to xml too
* [11:31] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: not really sure how we could drop descriptions ... it may be that they simply aren't being recorded due to design decisions that Latif has brought up before as being sub-optimal
* [11:31] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah excel is too magic
* [11:31] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Also excel is limited to 65,536 rows
* [11:31] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: not to be snarky but xls is not a very good format for transporting data from point a to point b
* [11:32] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yeah, object pays does not tell which object payed
* [11:32] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: a bummer really if you are wondering which of your objects is taking money ;)
* [11:32] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: yeah i found out about the row max, when i tried opening unique visitor list last week for the same sim
* [11:32] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: XD
* [11:34] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: i think we talked about the object pays issue last week, didn't we?
* [11:34] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: have you switched to git internally at LL?
* [11:34] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: ID Prefix is very git like lol
* [11:34] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Mercurial, and it's in progress
* [11:35] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: ah
* [11:35] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah that was actually the inspiration -- mercurial does the same thing
* [11:35] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hehe, i could have smelled it ;)
* [11:35] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: "4 bytes of uniqueness should be enough for anybody!"
* [11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Enkidu did some birthday math on how likely it was that you'd see a colliding id prefix in your transaction history, and it was pretty unlikely
* [11:36] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: did you take 4 least significant bytes? some crypto experts think that's where most randomness is
* [11:36] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: ;)
* [11:36] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: has the prefix stuff been working out ok for everyone?
* [11:36] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: i guess it's only been like a day
* [11:37] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: We move on internet time here! That's like 18 internet years!
* [11:37] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: VICTORY
* [11:37] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i have not had a customer encounter since the new system, but i was ok even with the full uuids
* [11:37] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: dont ask me, i came in late :p
* [11:39] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: i'll ask again next week
* [11:39] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: cool
* [11:40] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: dont know what the question was in the first place, wasnt on SL last week :p
* [11:40] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Youri: the format of the transactions history page
* [11:41] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: the HTML
* [11:41] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: the whites
* [11:41] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: particularly how transaction uuids are displayed on that page
* [11:41] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: Has anyone working on that taken courses in Accounting?
* [11:41] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Not me!
* [11:41] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: have a link for that perhaps?
* [11:41] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: i don't think so, arawn
* [11:41] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: it shows, doesn't it
* [11:41] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: https://secure-web2.secondlife.com/my/account/transactions.php
* [11:41] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: bills and me dont go together arawn :p
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yes it shows in that we are not boring. :-P
* [11:42] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: tnx which
* [11:42] [[User:Moon Metty|Moon Metty]]: i want to be a lion-tamer ...
* [11:42] [[User:Moon Metty|Moon Metty]]: :D
* [11:42] [[User:Moon Metty|Moon Metty]]: accounting is so dull
* [11:42] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: arawn, did you have a complaint or suggestion about the format?
* [11:42] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: After you've bloodied your nose a bit, is probably a good time, to sit with accountants, and discuss how data security is traditionally done. Check Kiting Checks and that stuff. The Sumerians used to put clay wrappers around some documents.
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I think if I were being honest I would admit that accounting can be interesting to the sort of person who is into that sort of thing, and is therefore a specialized field
* [11:43] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: History of Accounting will be more exciting, after working on this stuff
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah I totally agree that we should get some accountants to look at our entire transactions infrastructure
* [11:43] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: that's because the sumerians were awesome
* [11:44] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: interresting page
* [11:44] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: can see pretty much everything
* [11:44] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Has anyone ever gone as a Sumerian for Halloween? Is that the best Halloween costume ever, or best costume of all time period?
* [11:45] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i import data into my own db anyway, don't use the transaction page much
* [11:45] [[User:Moon Metty|Moon Metty]]: hehe
* [11:45] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
* [11:45] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: no, each year i am on guildwars for halloween
* [11:45] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I nearly did that this year with borderlands
* [11:45] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: Wearing a large Skirt? I was wearing more Minoan, doing my Sumerian Build for Burning Life.
* [11:45] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: yeah I get the sense that most power users just download transaction history
* [11:46] [[User:Moon Metty|Moon Metty]]: yes
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: We don't need no stinkin html
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I do feel sorry for anyone who was trying to scrape the html
* [11:46] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: i hope they used beautifulsoup!
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: But hopefully no one decides to embark on a project that involves scraping HTML in this day and age.
* [11:47] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: Scraping or Scrapping?
* [11:47] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: doot de doo
* [11:48] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Heh heh
* [11:48] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: a couple of us are scraping fantasy football data from yahoo
* [11:48] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: football? iew
* [11:49] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: lol
* [11:49] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yahoo totally needs an API for that -- don't they know it's Serious Business?
* [11:49] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: that's what i'm saying
* [11:49] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Men have been killed for less
* [11:49] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: finnally have the ball only to kick it away again :p
* [11:49] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
* [11:49] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: Is Youri in England?
* [11:49] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: nope
* [11:50] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: Dutch
* [11:50] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i actually have my vendors email my syystem, where it gets enetered into database
* [11:51] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: Is it a technical term, to Scrape HTML?
* [11:51] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh that's nice Latif -- do you encounter discrepancies where one system fails but the other succeeds?
* [11:52] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Arawn, I think it's a colloquialism
* [11:52] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i actually find email to be the most reliable :)
* [11:52] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: Jargon, we have different languages evolving in different areas.
* [11:52] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: smtp has built in retry on failure ;)
* [11:52] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Well, I find UUCP to be more reliable, so there!
* [11:52] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: haha
* [11:53] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: well outgoing email is pretty reliable since it scales well
* [11:53] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: every sim sends its own email
* [11:53] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: That's a good point about retry on failure though, and about the scalability
* [11:53] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: incoming email is another story entirely ;)
* [11:53] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: hey tegg, no more robo skippy?
* [11:53] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah that is problematic
* [11:54] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: Which i scrape data
* [11:54] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: my linden balance
* [11:54] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: outgoing will retry delivery for 4 days
* [11:54] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: which is nice :D
* [11:54] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: it was pretty horrific to pinpoint
* [11:54] [[User:Tegg Bode|Tegg Bode]]: LOL, I have many skippy forms
* [11:54] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: :p
* [11:54] [[User:Moon Metty|Moon Metty]]: wow 4 days
* [11:54] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: and to get around the cross site scriprting tokens
* [11:54] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: is there a easy way of getting my linden balance?
* [11:54] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Moon, most smtp servers try to deliver email for 4 days before giving up
* [11:55] [[User:Moon Metty|Moon Metty]]: did you ever notice long delays?
* [11:55] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: not for outging email, no
* [11:55] [[User:Moon Metty|Moon Metty]]: ok
* [11:55] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: where are you getting it from now, lonetorus?
* [11:55] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Ione: I don't think there's an easy way
* [11:55] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i usually get a db entry withing 3 seconds from when my vendor recieves the payment :)
* [11:56] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: I had an AR report rejected by the mail server. I learded a lot how the AR process works, ever wonder what happend after you press "ok"?
* [11:56] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: im getting it from my account summary, was much easier than getting it from that side info box
* [11:56] [[User:Moon Metty|Moon Metty]]: and what's the worst case, Latif?
* [11:56] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hm, 20-30 seconds most for outgoing
* [11:56] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: but LSL kills script for 20 seconds after sending email
* [11:57] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: well, lately Harry Linden been on a rampage, thats what i know. seems innocent people getting perm banned now. already talked to cyn about it, but no word yet
* [11:57] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: so if someone buys 3 items in a row, the vendor annot deliver more than one every 20 seconds or so
* [11:57] [[User:Moon Metty|Moon Metty]]: yes, or you need extra scripts
* [11:57] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: How much do outgoing http requests cause LSL to sleep?
* [11:58] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: and i did't want to add 5 parallel delivery scripts to each vendor
* [11:58] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: That where you create about 20 scripts and communcate to them using a orded list in the main one.
* [11:58] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: 20 http requests per min
* [11:58] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: lonetorus: you need to deal with a csrf token on the account summary page?
* [11:58] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: with burstable up to 25 iirc
* [11:58] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which 20 seconds penalty for email, no penalty for http,. but there is a throttle
* [11:58] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hm yeah it seems that switching to HTTP with retry logic would be bettr than 20 scripts (from where I sit, which admittedly is not where you sit)
* [11:59] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: enkidu, yes i do, as i need to log in, and its a secret feild on the login form, so first i get the login form, save the token, and store my cookies, then fire up a 2nd curl session submitting my login details, then follow the redirect to account summary
* [11:59] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: luckily SL is so laggy, so people buying two things and waiting 20 seconds just think its another sim freeze so i didn't bother
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: see, we're working on your behalf here! :-)
* [12:00] [[User:Moon Metty|Moon Metty]]: lol
* [12:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hahaha
* [12:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: files that under "customer satisfied"
* [12:00] [[User:Moon Metty|Moon Metty]]: yesterday we made a plan to charge every avatar who enters the sim 1L$ per freeze-second
* [12:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: making a queue for reliable http with retry would be a major undertaking in lsls
* [12:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lsl
* [12:00] [[User:Moon Metty|Moon Metty]]: so if you cause a 30 second freeze, you have to pay 30 L$
* [12:01] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: luls, by land pass?
* [12:01] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: ok, that makes sense
* [12:01] [[User:Moon Metty|Moon Metty]]: you could earn 84k per day that way
* [12:01] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
* [12:01] [[User:Moon Metty|Moon Metty]]: lol
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Someone should write a reliable http queue in LSL and release it as open source
* [12:02] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: 24X3600? When would anybody ever move?
* [12:02] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: reliable and lsl in one sentence?
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: "reliable"
* [12:02] [[User:Moon Metty|Moon Metty]]: yes Laitif, the R in LSL stands for reliable
* [12:02] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: lol
* [12:02] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hahaha
* [12:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: lol
* [12:03] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i understand LL does not want llEmail to be used as the source of spam
* [12:03] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: ian linden wondered about that at that game con in 2007
* [12:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I believe that it occasionally still is even with the mad throttling
* [12:04] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: ...why noone had used sl as a spam host
* [12:04] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: but would be nice to have "trusted customer" or something that would avoid those silly 20 sec penalties
* [12:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hm yeah --- people could get low scores or something
* [12:04] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: latif, well, make it part of the solution provider program ;)
* [12:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: But -- IMO it'd be better to make HTTP easier to make reliable
* [12:05] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: well, redusing spam from sl and xstreet should be handles on a new page, where you can say yes or no to pretty much anything that can get in
* [12:05] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: or shortewr delay for premium accounts
* [12:05] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: which, with memory limits and stuff, its difficult to trust lsl queue not overflowing....
* [12:05] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: make premium interesting to ppl again
* [12:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Definitely agreed
* [12:05] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: or even just payment info used
* [12:05] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: basic idea, may take some time but it will save a lot of spam
* [12:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Friends, it is noon here, and therefore lunch time.
* [12:06] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: Secret Spam Host? Just have a bot wear lots of spamming prims, as it passeds from Sim to Sim, and each prim will be removed from the data base, so many days after it's rekeyed on sim crossing.
* [12:06] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: have good one Which, take care
* [12:06] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: lol, have a good lunch
* [12:06] [[User:Moon Metty|Moon Metty]]: bon apetit Which
* [12:06] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: tc and thanks for having us
* [12:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Thanks for a rollicking discussion. :-)
* [12:07] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: At least eat something
* [12:07] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Enkidu, transaction history is made of awesome now, good work, make the page load fast and I will start a fan club :D
* [12:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: See you soon!
* [12:07] [[User:Moon Metty|Moon Metty]]: :)

User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2009 Oct 29

2009-10-29T19:01:06Z

Which Linden: Created page with '* [11:06] Liandra Ceawlin: Which Which is which? D: * [11:06] Enkidu Linden: hey which * [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linde...'

* [11:06] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: Which Which is which? D:
* [11:06] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: hey which
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: good day
* [11:06] [[User:lqlas Zuta|lqlas Zuta]]: ?
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: er I mean.....spoooooky day!
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: how is everyone?
* [11:07] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: Spifftacular!
* [11:07] [[User:Squirrel Wood|Squirrel Wood]]: not a pumpkin :p
* [11:08] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: This looked like a pleasantly geek OO, so I figured I'd come lurk, lol.
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: with a name like Squirrel Wood I'd expect you to be riding around on a half-eaten pumpkin
* [11:08] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: *geeky, too.
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: heh yeah, that it is!
* [11:08] [[User:Squirrel Wood|Squirrel Wood]]: Och be glad that building is disabled here or I'd pelt you with acorns :p
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: heh heh
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so uh....any topic suggestions?
* [11:10] [[User:Squirrel Wood|Squirrel Wood]]: Pumpkins!
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: They're a threat to civilization!
* [11:11] [[User:Squirrel Wood|Squirrel Wood]]: Indeed!
* [11:11] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: they make pretty good heads
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Thank goodness for sculpties
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: They were way uglier back in the day
* [11:12] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: orange cubes?
* [11:12] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yes, which had to walk uphill both ways
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: um, ok, so, not that much has happened in my part of the company that's worthy of sharing
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: been pretty same-ol, same-ol
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: slow and steady progress
* [11:13] [[User:Squirrel Wood|Squirrel Wood]]: good :)
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yesterday I spent the whole day voice-less for some unknown reason
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: the dot seems to be back today but it wasn't my doing
* [11:14] [[User:Squirrel Wood|Squirrel Wood]]: mayhaps slvoice.exe decided to lock up
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: wonders if there is a date bug like the one that afflicted windows mobile
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: it was deeper than that -- I had no voice despite reinstalling SL, rebooting, deleting every single sl-related binary, etc
* [11:14] [[User:Squirrel Wood|Squirrel Wood]]: happens to me sometimes and then voice refuses to work. terminate slvoice.exe and reactivate voice in the client and bam. works.
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I even nuked my preferences and it still didn't start working!
* [11:15] [[User:Squirrel Wood|Squirrel Wood]]: Odd
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah maybe I missed a tempfile or something
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oooh that's a good theory, cause tempfiles get reaped nightly
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so that would explain it working today
* [11:16] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: Sooo, tell us something geeky. I need my geeky fix for the afternoon, lol.
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hm what do I know that is geeky and also shareable ....
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: enkidu, know anything?
* [11:17] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: Aw. :P
* [11:18] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: hmm
* [11:18] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: I guess it all else fails, someone could bring up the 3rd party viewer registration policy. XD *ducks*
* [11:18] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: eesh
* [11:18] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I plan on avoiding that topic :-)
* [11:19] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: Wise, lol.
* [11:19] [[User:Squirrel Wood|Squirrel Wood]]: ^^
* [11:19] [[User:Squirrel Wood|Squirrel Wood]]: You can run but you cannot hide :p
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so I've been tinkering with llsd a little bit
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: for whatever reason the python implementation isn't symmetric
* [11:20] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: symmetric?
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: i.e. if you take a python data structure and serialize/deserialize it you get something different
* [11:20] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: Trippy. :P
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: depending on the data
* [11:21] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: oh good
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: some of this is just bugs -- as in, it uses the wrong serialization for floats so it loses precision
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so that was easy to fix
* [11:22] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: I remember pounding my head on the desk about that stuff when I ported the regapi stuff to php5, lol.
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: the uri parser also parses empty uris as None instead of an empty string
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: do we have a php5 llsd parser?
* [11:22] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: yes we do
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I mean obvioulsy we do, but is it open source?
* [11:23] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: i don't think so
* [11:23] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: It's not? D:
* [11:23] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: not that i've noticed anyway
* [11:23] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: i'm just making stuff up now
* [11:23] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: dude you should stick it in a hg repo and pop it up on bitbucket
* [11:23] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: I just shoved some DOM stuff in and tiddled some code around until it worked. <_<
* [11:23] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: It's on SL wiki, I think... Hm.
* [11:23] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah that'll work too
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oh how about that: https://secure-web17.secondlife.com/developers/third_party_reg/llsd_libs/llsd.php-lib
* [11:24] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: is it on the sl wiki?
* [11:24] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: [http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/RegAPI_for_PHP5] Maybe y'all are talking about a different variety of LLSD. >_>
* [11:24] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: pokes Squirrel. :P
* [11:25] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: my bad
* [11:25] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: Your bad what? :D
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: huh yours is a third variety, Liandra
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: highly custom to your particular problem space :-)
* [11:26] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: Tis just silly DOM foolery, and I chickened out on the encoding and just build xml strings instead of using DOM, lol. <_<
* [11:26] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: i didn't think we had an open source php5 llsd parser
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah we do that for speed :-)
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Enkidu: it appears that we actually do, but it's not the same as the one we use internally
* [11:27] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: yeah, it looks different, but it's hard to tell in a browser
* [11:28] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: Hai AImee!
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I remember optimizing the python implementation -- one of the things about it is that we use such a small subset of the xml spec that using an xml lib for serialization is much more expensive than doing the string concatenation
* [11:28] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: hullo!
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hey there :-)
* [11:28] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: silly daylight savings time
* [11:29] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: But but but... It seems "dirty" to just use string concatenation! It's too easy! XD
* [11:29] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I suppose that the proper thing to do is just to use a non-slow xml library
* [11:30] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: :O
* [11:30] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: Is there such a thing??? =:O
* [11:30] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hah!
* [11:30] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: seems to be low on everyone's priority list :-)
* [11:30] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: I think I just felt time bend back upon itself and the foundations of reality shake to their very roots. :o
* [11:31] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah it's a good point actually -- if you honestly care about speed, use application/llsd+binary
* [11:31] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: Json! \o/
* [11:31] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: Lol.
* [11:31] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: why binary?
* [11:31] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: binary's the fastest
* [11:31] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: You all must completely reengineer SL to use json instead of XML this weekend. You'll be done by monday morning, right? :o
* [11:31] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: the json serialization is medium-speed
* [11:32] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: we talked about this once but i thought it was interesting so maybe you could explain why it's so awesome
* [11:32] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: IBM has a hardware for parsing XML called DataPower. ^^
* [11:32] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: Lol
* [11:33] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: you want me to explain why the binary serialization is faster? I think it's just cause it uses less bytes to encode everything
* [11:33] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: I dun think json is "awesome" per se, just not near as heavy as xml, but still human readable-ish...
* [11:33] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: TBH I think json is *more* human-readable than xml
* [11:33] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: me too
* [11:33] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I would switch to using the json serialization for everything once it's commonly available
* [11:34] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: we currently don't actually have an implementation of it; instead we have an implementation of this "notation" format which sucks
* [11:34] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: Lol
* [11:34] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: I'm glad you said it instead of me. ;P
* [11:34] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah ... just pretend it's not there
* [11:35] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: Ah, nevermind. I am just being a pain, lol.
* [11:35] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: aw poor notation
* [11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: there are lots of fast libraries for parsing json, but cause notation is a little different.... we can't use any fast libraries
* [11:37] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: This certified HTTP stuff looks interesting. I was hoping the posters meant it was going to be presented, but I guess that was last week. :P
* [11:37] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh, Liandra, those are actually years old
* [11:37] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: Hey Skills!
* [11:37] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: Lol.
* [11:37] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: ^^
* [11:38] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: Bye Skills, lol.
* [11:38] [[User:Bronson Blackadder|Bronson Blackadder]]: lol
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I just leave 'em up because it's easier than taking 'em down :-)
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: did we just have a Skills drive-by?
* [11:38] [[User:Bronson Blackadder|Bronson Blackadder]]: yep
* [11:38] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: I think so. :o
* [11:39] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oh there he is
* [11:39] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: And now a Blukitty driveby. :o
* [11:39] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: she....my bad
* [11:39] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: ^^
* [11:39] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: which, did you work on http-in?
* [11:39] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: all avatars look the same when your cam is at thet draw distance
* [11:39] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: both back. ^^
* [11:39] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: hi
* [11:39] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Enkidu, no, I didn't work on http-in
* [11:40] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: offers catnip to the blukitty.
* [11:40] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: oh i thought you had
* [11:41] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: no... http-in was pretty much all Kelly
* [11:41] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: waves quietly to all :-)
* [11:41] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: Any chance it will ever run on port 80 or 443? Or does that conflict with internal services?
* [11:41] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: Appengine for one does not allow http requests on nonstandard ports. :<
* [11:41] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: really??????
* [11:42] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: So it's back to polling fun, lol. Yep.
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: why would they make such a ridiculous restriction?
* [11:42] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: Beats me!
* [11:42] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: I filed a jira, then say that one had already been closed on the subject, and closed mine. <_<
* [11:42] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: *saw
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: um, so I guess I don't know any hard reason why we couldn't switch to port 80 eventually
* [11:43] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: And the polling is extra yuck for ol' appengine, cos you know, quotas and stuff. =:O
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but really... WTF appengine
* [11:43] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: Lol yea
* [11:44] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: I guess they are paranoid.
* [11:44] [[User:Bronson Blackadder|Bronson Blackadder]]: lol
* [11:44] [[User:Bronson Blackadder|Bronson Blackadder]]: paranoia cha cha cha
* [11:44] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: dude don't crash my couch script bro!
* [11:44] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: lol
* [11:45] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: Silly openal crashes. D:
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I imagine that a shift to port 80 might introduce operational challenges for us
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: as in, it'd screw everything up for a while
* [11:46] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: I figured the only reason it wasn't running there already was because some other service was, something internal. :P
* [11:46] [[User:Bronson Blackadder|Bronson Blackadder]]: it'll give the masses soemthing else to complain about
* [11:46] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: Lol
* [11:47] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: One single snapshot try and I crashed, thats really silly.
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah it's possible that something internal runs there -- almost certainly in fact
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: port 80 is usully immediately consumed with something trivial
* [11:48] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: on anyhost I've ever developed on
* [11:48] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: Lol
* [11:48] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: "Oh look I can set up favicons, DONE, get your own port, latecomer"
* [11:48] [[User:Bronson Blackadder|Bronson Blackadder]]: lol
* [11:49] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: we don't call your mom #80 for nothing
* [11:49] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: damn
* [11:49] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: i need a laugh track
* [11:49] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah my mom is all about the favicons
* [11:49] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: squints at Enkidu :P
* [11:50] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: :)
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: anyone going to any cool parties for halloween?
* [11:50] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: I'm going to lock myself in the basement and turn out all the lights. :P
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: scary!
* [11:51] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: Well, I thought about dressing up like a scary hillbilly and going out and begging for candy, but..... I do that every other day too. :o
* [11:51] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: nice!
* [11:52] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'm planning on hitting at least one party
* [11:52] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but man -- the day is so intense here in SF that it's a little overwhelming
* [11:52] [[User:Bronson Blackadder|Bronson Blackadder]]: got a huge bowl of candy already to hand out
* [11:52] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: I'm not sure if there -are- any parties here.
* [11:53] [[User:Bronson Blackadder|Bronson Blackadder]]: so I;',m hanging out at home
* [11:53] [[User:Bronson Blackadder|Bronson Blackadder]]: home and here
* [11:53] [[User:Bronson Blackadder|Bronson Blackadder]]: lol
* [11:53] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: Maybe I should throw one.
* [11:54] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: Rocky Horror theme or something. My neighbors already think I'm weird, so it shouldn't hurt anything...
* [11:54] [[User:Bronson Blackadder|Bronson Blackadder]]: lol
* [11:54] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: you should go to that zombie thing with praveen, which
* [11:54] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Guild Wars does complete makeovers for some zones for Halloween and also for Xmas, with grinning moons and ghosts for clouds etc. Would have been nice here too :-)
* [11:55] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: me and me mates are planning to go as Special Infected from L4D
* [11:55] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oh zombie thing? hadn't heard of it
* [11:55] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: Omgggg, have you seen Zombieland yet?
* [11:55] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: actually my understanding is that we don't change the sun and moon anymore because we get too many complaints from inworld photographers. :-(
* [11:55] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: also I guess we can't change the sun post-windlight
* [11:56] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: haven't seen zombieland yet, I require at least two months of hype before I'll see anything :-)
* [11:56] [[User:Bronson Blackadder|Bronson Blackadder]]: lol
* [11:56] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: It's pretty amusing.
* [11:56] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: As long as you allow us to manipulate the sun and all, all is well. :P I almost always use customized windlight settings. ^^
* [11:56] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: you realize that if SL's future is determined by complaints, you'll eventually be locked immobile?
* [11:57] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: I highly recommend it, if you are a connoseur of cheesy zombie mogies.
* [11:57] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: *movies
* [11:57] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: :We'll forget the sun in his Windlight sky, As we walk in fields of lag"
* [11:57] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: yep, fully aware
* [11:57] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: nods
* [11:57] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: Torley's settings pack is a good starter. =)
* [11:57] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: though you could do your part by complaining that we're too beholden to complainers
* [11:57] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: Hahaha
* [11:57] [[User:Bronson Blackadder|Bronson Blackadder]]: lol
* [11:57] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Haha
* [11:58] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ok I should run a bit early, I have a packed afternoon
* [11:58] [[User:Liandra Ceawlin|Liandra Ceawlin]]: Thanks fer your time!
* [11:58] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Many thanks for a great time, and happy halloween!
* [11:58] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Well I did too. I told Cyn and Blondin to stop making policy based on resident feedback, and defer to Linden techies instead. I guess they don't like me now ^_^
* [11:58] [[User:Tillie Ariantho|Tillie Ariantho]]: oop. show starting. ^^
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oh sad treekyomoon.com is listed as a malware site by google now
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: guess it got haxed
* [11:59] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: bye Which :)
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah -- laters!
* [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]

User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2009 Oct 15

2009-10-15T19:03:58Z

Which Linden: Created page with '* [11:02] Which Linden: Hey there! * [11:02] Which Linden: Man, this is gonna be awesome * [11:02] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linde...'

* [11:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hey there!
* [11:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Man, this is gonna be awesome
* [11:02] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: hey
* [11:03] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hello Which :)
* [11:03] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: what's going to be awesome?
* [11:03] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hello Enkidu, Aimee
* [11:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hi!
* [11:03] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: lo
* [11:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I think there is going to be the highest concentration of Lindens here ever
* [11:04] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol attach of the lindens :P
* [11:04] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: crikey, we're thoroughly Lindenized
* [11:04] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: do they self replicate now?
* [11:04] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
* [11:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: This is how we start taking over this virtual world
* [11:04] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: runs off to spend the extra Lindens
* [11:04] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hahah
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hi grant, thanks for coming!
* [11:05] [[User:Grant Linden|Grant Linden]]: thanks for the invite
* [11:05] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: what's up guys
* [11:05] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: points to the sky
* [11:05] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: that way
* [11:05] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: lol
* [11:05] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: haha
* [11:06] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: that joke never gets tired, well, as long as you're the one making it
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So yeah, I just stuck Grant's wireframe on WEB-1321
* [11:06] [[User:JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB-1321|JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB-1321]]:
* [#WEB-1321] [[User:Transaction History,|Transaction History,]]: the transaction number should remain a sequential number, not a UID
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It is pretty rad
* [11:07] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: sill on the transaction id? ;)
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yes.... releasing anything here is quite a process
* [11:07] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: that thing is like so september ;)
* [11:07] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: sept 2010 at this rate
* [11:08] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: JOKE
* [11:08] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Enkidu, true
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: On the up side I've also done like 1% of about 10 projects this past week
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: My throughput is high if my project latency is long
* [11:08] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yey!
* [11:08] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
* [11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Actually, Grant, I was curious about what a wireframe actually is -- do you mind explaining?
* [11:09] [[User:Grant Linden|Grant Linden]]: a wireframe is like a blueprint for a house
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hm good analogy
* [11:10] [[User:Grant Linden|Grant Linden]]: it is sometimes used in a spec
* [11:10] [[User:Grant Linden|Grant Linden]]: it sometimes is a decent visual representation
* [11:11] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hm, there was one thing that always irked me about transactin history
* [11:11] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: wrt payments from objects
* [11:11] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: waits 20min required for account page to load....
* [11:12] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: cannot fint it right now... the new wireframe does not show object payments
* [11:12] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: You gotta install the "make sl go faster" plugin to make it faster
* [11:13] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: of course, getting the plugin......
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: If google can wave away performance problems with plugins, so can we
* [11:13] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, do you have the download link?
* [11:13] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: [http://jira.secondlife.com/secure/attachment/30267/101309_Transaction_History_1.5.pdf]
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: for the wireframe, I assume you mean
* [11:13] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: uninstalling the go-slow plugin more like :D
* [11:14] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i don't see object transactions
* [11:14] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: in that draft
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yes. ... so the wireframe doesn't have any examples of object buys
* [11:14] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: very important
* [11:15] [[User:Grant Linden|Grant Linden]]: this is true
* [11:15] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yess now i remember what irked me
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: there are a few extra fields associated with object buys -- region I think is one of them
* [11:15] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, when my objet pays
* [11:15] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: right now i get
* [11:15] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Date: 10/15/2009 11:05:34
* Object Pays
* Region: Perun
* Destination: Kristina Deschane
* [11:15] [[User:Grant Linden|Grant Linden]]: I need to see an example of that
* [11:16] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i have now idea *which object* payed
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oh, Latif, yeah, uh, that's a deeper problem
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: that information is not recorded at the time
* [11:16] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: example for incoming transaction
* [11:16] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: so this is my object being payed:
* [11:16] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Date: 10/15/2009 10:30:00
* Payment
* Description: KiKi 2009--GaGa Ballet Boots (pink)-panel
* Region: Perun
* Source: Cassandra Quartz
* [11:17] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: the Description is which object got payed
* [11:17] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: how come we cannot have that on outgoing payments
* [11:18] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: it's vital information, if some of your object is paying, to be able to see which object is taking money from your account and giving other avatars
* [11:18] [[User:Grant Linden|Grant Linden]]: accepted your inventory offer.
* [11:18] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Grant, I just dropped a Fake vendor on ya
* [11:18] [[User:Grant Linden|Grant Linden]]: thanks
* [11:18] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: You can rez it, then click it to generate both payments to objects, and payments from objects
* [11:18] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: writes an abuse report citing Which for distributing fake vendors
* [11:19] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hahaha
* [11:19] [[User:Grant Linden|Grant Linden]]: cool
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: yeah it's basically an oversight that we don't record it in one direction
* [11:19] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: it's fisher's fault
* [11:19] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: fisher tought which to phish
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Give a man a phish.... and he will be stoned
* [11:20] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, something you could put in the serverv on todo?
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: hook me up with a JIRA
* [11:20] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: jira search is useless
* [11:20] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
* [11:20] [[User:Fake vendor|Fake vendor]]: Got 1
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oh crap my fake vendor doesn't work
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Forgot to add debit permissions check
* [11:22] [[User:Grant Linden|Grant Linden]]: it's a fake fake vendor?
* [11:22] [[User:Fake vendor|Fake vendor]]: Got 1
* [11:22] [[User:'Fake vendor',|'Fake vendor',]]: an object owned by 'Which Linden', located in Beaumont at 150.0, 41.4,22.8, has been granted permission to: Take Linden dollars (L$) from you.
* [11:23] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Do you have to grant permission on rez or else it doesn't weork?
* [11:23] [[User:Fake vendor|Fake vendor]]: Got 1
* [11:23] [[User:'Fake vendor',|'Fake vendor',]]: an object owned by 'Which Linden', located in Beaumont at 150.0, 41.4,22.8, has been granted permission to: Take Linden dollars (L$) from you.
* [11:23] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: heh someone claims he get wrong object name
* [11:23] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, no you can request it at any time
* [11:23] [[User:Unable to|Unable to]]: load script. Please try again.
* [11:23] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: you want a real vendor script lol
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hm well there must be a race condition because I requested it right before calling llgivemoney and it still complained that it didn't have perms
* [11:24] [[User:Unable to|Unable to]]: load script. Please try again.
* [11:24] [[User:Unable to|Unable to]]: load script. Please try again.
* [11:24] [[User:Unable to|Unable to]]: load script. Please try again.
* [11:24] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: you need to wait for to user to click on Grant
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ohhhh....
* [11:24] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: let me setup a vendor that splits profit
* [11:24] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i have the script
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: it's probably easier to just grant on rez I guess
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ok!
* [11:25] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: it will sell you object for$2 and sed $1 to which
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: mwahahaha
* [11:25] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: wooden cubes for sale?
* [11:25] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which could you enable scripts for a sec?
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I didn't? whoops
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah...they're enabled
* [11:27] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oh and BTW on JIRA search I pretty much gave up on the builtin search and just google site:jira.secondlife.com
* [11:27] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: google is the balm
* [11:27] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: 'Morning all :-)
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hi Morgaine!
* [11:28] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: How goes Which?
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: we are messing around with fake vendors again
* [11:28] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Cool
* [11:29] [[User:Vendor that|Vendor that]]: gives half to Which and half to Latif: Sold Object for L$2 to Latif Khalifa. Your share $1.
* [11:29] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Oh, lots of Lindens rezzing, hehe. Hiya Fisher, Grant, Enkidu :-)
* [11:29] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yesss
* [11:29] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha ha, poppy!
* [11:29] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, now we are in it for the profit :)
* [11:29] [[User:Grant Linden|Grant Linden]]: helloo
* [11:29] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: OMG, and Poppy. :-)
* [11:30] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: gave you Vendor that gives half to Which and half to Latif.
* [11:30] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: whoa snap, did i miss a memo or something?
* [11:30] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Residents outnumbered for a change. :-) Hiya Aimee, Latif , piper :-)
* [11:30] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hello
* [11:30] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: where did grant go
* [11:30] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: OK now we just need to pull a voltron
* [11:30] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: we came for a brawl
* [11:30] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: grant's still here
* [11:30] [[User:Grant Linden|Grant Linden]]: I am
* [11:30] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: ARM, ASSEMBLE!
* [11:30] [[User:Grant Linden|Grant Linden]]: accepted your inventory offer.
* [11:31] [[User:Anton123 Adder|Anton123 Adder]]: hi Lindens
* [11:31] [[User:Grant Linden|Grant Linden]]: thank you
* [11:31] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: is there an agenda today?
* [11:31] [[User:Vendor that|Vendor that]]: gives half to Which and half to Latif is offline.
* [11:31] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: hi Morgaine :)
* [11:31] [[User:'Vendor that|'Vendor that]]: gives half to Which and half to Latif', an object owned by 'Which Linden', located in Beaumont at 147.3, 43.6,23.3, has been granted permission to: Take Linden dollars (L$) from you.
* [11:31] [[User:Vendor that|Vendor that]]: gives half to Which and half to Latif: Reading notecard '*KL* Sale Which Linden'.
* [11:31] [[User:Vendor that|Vendor that]]: gives half to Which and half to Latif: Object is for sale for L$2.
* [11:31] [[User:Vendor that|Vendor that]]: gives half to Which and half to Latif: Which Linden receives L$1.
* [11:31] [[User:Vendor that|Vendor that]]: gives half to Which and half to Latif: Latif Khalifa receives L$1.
* [11:31] [[User:Vendor that|Vendor that]]: gives half to Which and half to Latif: IM sale notifications are on.
* [11:31] [[User:Vendor that|Vendor that]]: gives half to Which and half to Latif: Email sale notifications are off.
* [11:31] [[User:Vendor that|Vendor that]]: gives half to Which and half to Latif: Ready (46026 bytes free).
* [11:31] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Whoo, a real vendor script!
* [11:31] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: hi Poppy! ltns
* [11:31] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Poppy, Which and I are making profit on testing
* [11:31] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
* [11:31] [[User:Vendor that|Vendor that]]: gives half to Which and half to Latif: Sold Object for L$2 to Grant Linden. Your share $1.
* [11:31] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: lol
* [11:31] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah Poppy, we're discussing the transactions history page and the wireframe that grant designed
* [11:31] [[User:Vendor that|Vendor that]]: gives half to Which and half to Latif: Sold Object for L$2 to Grant Linden. Your share $1.
* [11:32] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: wee juist made $1, and another ;)
* [11:32] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: We have these fake vendors for the purposes of generating logs
* [11:32] [[User:Grant Linden|Grant Linden]]: wooot
* [11:32] [[User:Vendor that|Vendor that]]: gives half to Which and half to Latif: Panel ready. Permissions granted.
* [11:32] [[User:Vendor that|Vendor that]]: gives half to Which and half to Latif: Panel ready. Permissions granted.
* [11:32] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which is getting the other half :P
* [11:32] [[User:Vendor that|Vendor that]]: gives half to Which and half to Latif: Thank you for your purchase. Your item (Object) is being delivered.
* [11:32] [[User:Vendor that|Vendor that]]: gives half to Which and half to Latif owned by Grant Linden gave you 'Object' ( [http://slurl.com/secondlife/Beaumont/149/43/23] ).
* [11:32] [[User:Vendor that|Vendor that]]: gives half to Which and half to Latif: Sold Object for L$2 to Which Linden. Your share $1.
* [11:32] [[User:Grant Linden|Grant Linden]]: I am buying things called objects
* [11:32] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Whoa, those must be rare collectibles
* [11:32] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I've already bought a ton of those ;-)
* [11:32] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Grant, and the script pays $1 to me and $1 to Which, right?
* [11:33] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: that's how vendors with split profit usually work
* [11:33] [[User:Grant Linden|Grant Linden]]: yup
* [11:33] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: you can edit the notecard if you want a cut of the action hahaha
* [11:33] [[User:Grant Linden|Grant Linden]]: I do't think I need that many examples
* [11:34] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, btw. another thing that makes me mad... objects forget that they have debit permission
* [11:34] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: rarely, but it happens
* [11:34] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So...funny story. I bought a submarine to show my military friend how SL can be used for simulation. Of course it had incredibly terrible physics and you could totally send it up into the air. So we were messing around with it in the air, and another friend came by and was all "Oh that's a nice submarine....does it work in the water too?"
* [11:34] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: loool
* [11:35] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: they forget it without a script reset?
* [11:35] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yes... its a very rare occurance
* [11:36] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: but i have about 200 of these vendors in my store
* [11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: eeesh
* [11:36] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: and about once every couple of months
* [11:36] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: 1 or more "forger" they have the debit grant
* [11:37] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: and they were not reset... i put in a gazillion of checks to try to see where and how
* [11:37] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hmm.... so you could compensate for this yourself by periodically calling llGetPermissions and re-requesting
* [11:37] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Which you presumably do already?
* [11:37] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: origininally this script was changing states so i rewrote it
* [11:37] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: now it read notecards and does evertyting in the state default
* [11:37] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: which, no i don't
* [11:38] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: 1) timer is expensive thing to do, i want to be nice to the sim
* [11:38] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: this script does nothing until money() event is triggered
* [11:38] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: 2) you need to be online when it does the request otherwise it has no effect
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hm yeah, so you'd need to have an online check too
* [11:39] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i'd rather you fix the bug lol
* [11:39] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: heh, well it's an interesting design philosophy we've taken with lsl
* [11:39] [[User:Vendor that|Vendor that]]: gives half to Which and half to Latif: Sold Object for L$2 to Anton123 Adder. Your share $1.
* [11:40] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: what's our lsl design philosophy?
* [11:40] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: We basically write our LSL framework as though we expect scripters to code for a hostile unreliable environment
* [11:40] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Enkidu, what makes you thin there is one?
* [11:40] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Because it basically is
* [11:40] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: lsl: now with hazmat
* [11:41] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, the only way i work around it is to send email "I'm broken, please come reset me the next time you're online"
* [11:41] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Well if timers were cheap you'd want it to check itself periodically
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Then it could hopefully catch you when you're online and re-requiest perms
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So that's lame that timers are not cheap
* [11:42] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i have hunderds of these.... adding timers to each would not be nice to the sim
* [11:43] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: could you do it with one timer?
* [11:43] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Enkidy, each panel needs its own script
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Or maybe you could have like a few controller scripts that sit and check for you to beonline, and when you are, they could send events to the vendors to check perms, so they'd only check every tiem you log in
* [11:43] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Enkidu even, sorry
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Enkididdle
* [11:43] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hehe
* [11:44] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: yeah like a mommy script
* [11:44] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, yes i was thinkind to add listener and have one script to llReagionSay(some_secret_chan", "boys check your debit permission");
* [11:44] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: it could tell your other scripts to eat their vegetables and stop picking on their sister
* [11:45] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: But yeah basically currently our design philosophy requires scripters to build pretty elaborate structures; look at what http-in has you do.
* [11:45] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yeah
* [11:45] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i wrote a whole app for it lol [http://gridurl.appspot.com/]
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I don't know how much of it is necessary (as it seems most of http-in is) and how much is just workarounds for bugs
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Ossm latif, I remember hearing kelly express hope that someone would rite something liek that
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: with less typos
* [11:47] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i understand the concept... http-in lets you connect directly to the sim host
* [11:47] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: that way linden lab avoids a central service
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yup, w don't have to worry about scalabiility
* [11:47] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: and scalability problems that brings (and lets face it, scalability and lindens is like water and oil)
* [11:48] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: points at group chat
* [11:48] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: But now you have to worry about scalability mwahaha
* [11:48] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: well instead of lindens having to worry about scalability
* [11:48] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: you let every resident worry about saving urls somewhere else ;)
* [11:48] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: sorry, I have to run
* [11:48] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: bye all
* [11:48] [[User:Anton123 Adder|Anton123 Adder]]: bye fisher
* [11:49] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Cyu Fisher
* [11:49] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: see you fisher
* [11:49] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: l8rs!
* [11:49] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: so worry devided around to everyone = scalabilty, fresh approach :P
* [11:49] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: heh heh
* [11:49] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: well it is teh REST-ful way
* [11:49] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: NOOO
* [11:49] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Apache's a lot easier to write than Firefox is
* [11:49] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: rest does not change URI under your feet lol
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: No, that's true, but one principle of REST is to put the intelligence in the client
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: And the client in this sense is the script
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: And the external url service
* [11:50] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: in case of http-in it needs intelligence + super awesome psychic powers to know where to connect to :)
* [11:51] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It's not really restful, that's true, but it's, like, kinda rest-y
* [11:51] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: restular
* [11:51] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I guess I couldn't have thought of a design that had all the same properties but worked differently
* [11:51] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: and truthfully, we don't have anything as sophisticated as appengine internally
* [11:51] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: so, good on you :)
* [11:52] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hehe
* [11:52] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: another thing about http-in
* [11:52] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: so you can redirect GET request
* [11:52] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: so this works transparently
* [11:52] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: The part of REST that HTTP-in uses is the Really Eclectic Server Technology part. ;-)
* [11:52] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: but then lindens in their infinite wisdom limit QUERY_STRING to 255 chars
* [11:53] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: (so internet explorer 3.0 like)
* [11:53] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: so it forces you to use POST whic his not redirectible
* [11:53] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i asked Kelly, did he do it for the purpose of testing pain treshold of SL users lol
* [11:53] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: lol
* [11:54] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: got some explanaiton how something between cap server and sim does not let him pass uri argumetns longer than 255 chars
* [11:55] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Really? I'd have guessed it was some sort of DoS deterrernt
* [11:55] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: sounds reasonable for our infra;
* [11:55] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: its like a unix pipeline, i could imagine something along the path having a limit
* [11:55] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: (not that I can verify)
* [11:55] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: (just sounds reasonable)
* [11:56] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah...probably it's just in the cap router
* [11:56] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: no, you can post up to 2MB
* [11:56] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: but get only 255
* [11:57] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It's cause they're treated as headers
* [11:57] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: for the uninitated query string is the but of the url after question mark that is used to passed params
* [11:57] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: ie 3.0 had 255 char limit in there too
* [11:57] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: circe 1998
* [11:57] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: Latif, well, GET and POST are *quite* different :)
* [11:57] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: i remember that
* [11:58] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Poppy, I know
* [11:58] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: does POST have the 255 URL limit too?
* [11:58] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: that's why it sucks that you need to use POST
* [11:58] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Poppy, not for the URL
* [11:58] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: post has 2MB body size limit
* [11:58] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: DoS deterrence by obscurity. :-) It would probably work in that role, except for the fact that normal operation would be broken unless the HTTP-in server tells the world its URL to make it accessible, and by telling the world, there is no more obscurity. ;-)
* [11:58] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: of course there is no body size in get requests
* [11:59] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: but the main difference for http-in is that GET can be redirected
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Well that makes sense
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: In HTTP headers are line-delimited
* [12:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: so my appengine app can say, oh you didn't really mean to connect to me, go over tehre to that SL object
* [12:00] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: internally most services are limited to 8K, but we still predominantly use POST instead of GET unless the params are very fixed
* [12:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Wheras the body has a declared size
* [12:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So you have to limit your header buffer sizes
* [12:00] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: well, unless it's chunked ;)
* [12:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: But yes agreed taht 255 is kind of a small limit
* [12:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Even if it's chunked each chunk is a fixed size
* [12:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Anyway, it's around time we wrapped up
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Really appreciate the interesting discussion today
* [12:02] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, POST allows you to pass 2mb to LSL
* [12:02] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: it would be only reasonable to allo GET to have that ability to :)
* [12:02] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: * Linden, take care guys ;)
* [12:02] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: :)
* [12:02] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: you too, Latif
* [12:02] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: thanks!
* [12:03] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Aimee, Morg, have fun
* [12:03] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Cyu Which, and all. TC :-)
* [12:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: /\w+ \w+/, good to see you
* [12:03] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: bye everyone!
* [12:03] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: heheh
* [12:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Laters! Thanks! :-)

User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2009 Oct 8

2009-10-08T19:07:19Z

Which Linden: Spammy beta HUD!

* [11:00] [[User:Peter Stindberg|Peter Stindberg]]: accepted your inventory offer.
* [11:00] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: hey which!
* [11:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: good day!
* [11:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: How are you?
* [11:01] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hi all
* [11:01] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Hello
* [11:01] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: fine here!
* [11:02] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: how are you?
* [11:02] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: hi latif
* [11:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I am well. (oh god I sound like my high school chemistry teacher)
* [11:02] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: lol
* [11:02] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hi Which, hi peoples :-)
* [11:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hi!
* [11:03] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, you are getting old, dude :)
* [11:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: How's that?
* [11:03] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hey Enkidu, i told you not to press that red button
* [11:03] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, "I am well" ;)
* [11:03] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: hey enkidu!
* [11:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: OH...yeah....get off my lawn etc
* [11:03] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: only old folks would say that
* [11:03] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hehehe
* [11:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hi Fisher!
* [11:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: this is an absurd linden ratio here
* [11:04] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: hey fisher!
* [11:04] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: hi everyone
* [11:04] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: enkidu what did you do to the interwebtubes?
* [11:04] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: Hey Enkidu
* [11:04] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: hey fisher, morg :)
* [11:04] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: Hey Which
* [11:05] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: Youri
* [11:05] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: :)
* [11:05] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: what haven't i done to the tubes
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: snap!
* [11:06] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: looks like most linden pages are broken about now
* [11:06] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: url?
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hmm I'm still seeing diamon lingerie advertised on my dashboard
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: it must be working
* [11:06] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: You have to log on to the Wiki now for some pages. Like Office Hours
* [11:07] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: There is a note there saying they are working on it
* [11:07] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: ah i didn't see that, now i see it
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Ah...lame
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: We don't host those ourselves though
* [11:08] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i can still blame Enkidu, right? :D
* [11:09] [[User:Rhiadra Raviprakash|Rhiadra Raviprakash]]: look at that crap
* [11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It's an interesting phenomenon -- hosting them externally should theoretically increase their reliability but instead what we see is that the incidence of *one* of our sites being busted at any given time goes up
* [11:09] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: naturally!
* [11:09] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: i wasn't actualy involved though
* [11:09] [[User:Rhiadra Raviprakash|Rhiadra Raviprakash]]: age max 20, IQ max, 105
* [11:09] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: But now they can all fail individually, rather than all at once.
* [11:09] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: lol
* [11:09] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: jira and wiki pages are horribly slow, you might want to find new outsourcing partners ;)
* [11:09] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: that leaves me out for sure :)
* [11:10] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: both age and IQ
* [11:10] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: let me try that again!
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: There should be some term for that phenomenon -- the paradox of isolation or something
* [11:10] [[User:Rhiadra Raviprakash|Rhiadra Raviprakash]]: lol
* [11:10] [[User:Rhiadra Raviprakash|Rhiadra Raviprakash]]: true
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: You try to remove a single point of failure but end up adding multiple single sources of failure
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: MAybe we should call it the "it's enkidu's fault phenomenon"
* [11:11] [[User:Rhiadra Raviprakash|Rhiadra Raviprakash]]: peace all
* [11:11] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: At least if separated, one failure cant drag down the whjole thing
* [11:12] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but....as we just witnessed, one failure might as well be the whole thing going down
* [11:12] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: which, if it's got a name, at least it's the best name
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hah
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so I dunno, just something I've noticed lately
* [11:13] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: seriously, performance of both outsourced and in house linden pages is borderline tollerable
* [11:13] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I agree.
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah they're all hugely latent like it's 2001
* [11:14] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: And object rezzing seems slower, even not counting the texture bug
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: rezzes some stuff
* [11:14] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: By which I mean, some texture download bug that was not quite fixed when 1.23 shipped
* [11:14] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Its fixed in Snowglobe
* [11:14] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: The download queue gets stuck
* [11:15] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: think thats more asset server related
* [11:15] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Concurrency is not hugegly higher than a year ago, but somehow it seems slower
* [11:15] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: could be wrong ofcourse
* [11:15] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: wonders what lindens are doing, backend irc chatting? :P
* [11:15] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: pr0n downloads? ;)
* [11:16] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: lol
* [11:16] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: shhh
* [11:16] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: something seems keeping them busy ;)
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: lotsa infrastructure projects
* [11:16] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: they just spend to much time at the local sexclub, but shhh ;) dont let em know that we know :p
* [11:16] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: haha
* [11:17] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: during office hours? :P
* [11:17] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: hi ara :)
* [11:17] [[User:Arabella Steadham|Arabella Steadham]]: hi everyone :)
* [11:17] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: take a seat :)
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: did we want to continue talking about transaction ids or are we pretty settled on where we'd like the page to be?
* [11:18] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: your blog post pretty much ended it ;)
* [11:18] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: you have the lead which, isnt it? :)
* [11:18] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: no need to beat it any more
* [11:18] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: hi suae
* [11:18] [[User:Suae Mesic|Suae Mesic]]: hi
* [11:18] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: hey tech
* [11:19] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: we competin here who can hold their breath longer
* [11:19] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: Hi all
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Ha ha ha
* [11:19] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lindens are leading the score board
* [11:19] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: lol
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so what do you all want to talk about? I am open to suggestions
* [11:20] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Well, we are constrained by what you are WILLING to talk about
* [11:20] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: what infrastructure projects are taking place?
* [11:20] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: just too busy getting a castle ready that should help out residents with RL disabilities
* [11:20] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: anything interesting
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: no, all boring
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: :-P
* [11:20] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
* [11:20] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Refactoring an RDBMS schema is never fun
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: well, as you know, my project (and now Enkidu's as well) involves scaling up the L$ backend
* [11:21] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: Any progress on the http-texture project?
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: There are other projects relating to improving the dataserver's performance
* [11:21] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i was reading on facebook infrastructure, how do they manage to scale
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I don't know about http-texture I'm sorry
* [11:21] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: So we can cash-out to PayPal faster than 5 days??
* [11:21] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: as always, the key is data partitioning
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: There are also billing infrastructure projects --- not sure if they'd change paypal's policies though
* [11:22] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: cash out delays are just a policy thing, nothing to do with the infrastructure ;)
* [11:22] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Oh, the bottleneck is on PP's end??
* [11:22] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: Hmm...i open a notecard from a group notice 5 minutes ago and still hasn't opened.
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: That is my understanding given that I've seen that sort of delay on ebay
* [11:22] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, sorry, but it does not hold the water
* [11:22] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: It is true that transferring money into PP from my bank can take 3 days.
* [11:22] [[User:Arabella Steadham|Arabella Steadham]]: I think that depends to a degree on where you live
* [11:23] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: paypal process maspay payments in seconds
* [11:23] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: its linden lab procedure that is responsible for the 5 day delay
* [11:23] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Somehow I suspected that
* [11:24] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Notice how you have to dig to find the Sell Lindens and Cash out functions, but "Buy Lindens" is right up front
* [11:24] [[User:Arabella Steadham|Arabella Steadham]]: I never noticed that
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah that whole itnerface is really old and clunky though
* [11:24] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: You have to sell L$ for local currency as one step, THEN do the PP transfer.
* [11:24] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: That could be streamlined.
* [11:24] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: it's the policy not the technology used...
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Certainly....but policy stuff is generally much harder to change
* [11:25] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: PayPal can not cancel my acocunt for no reason and keep my money. LL CAN do that. SO I prefer to keep my money elsewhere.
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So the dataserver infrastructure stuff is pretty interesting
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: One thing we are doing is converting all dataserver requests to go over http instead of connecting to mysql directly
* [11:26] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Ah, so an HTTP server fronting the MYSQL?
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: (this is not my project so I don't know its schedule or how well it's coming along)
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah basically Mojito
* [11:27] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: That should help keep down the number of MYSQL sessions
* [11:27] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Mojito, offical Linden reason for the 5 day delay where they keep your money is that they need to verify your paypal account, which makes 0 sense if you transfer money every 15 days like i do, they cannot be verifying paypal account 24 times a year
* [11:27] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Conenction pooling
* [11:27] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: And they will ACCEPT money from PP instantly
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It is based on our observation that speaking the MySQL protocol over network connections with even slight unreliability causes stability problems
* [11:28] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: A MySQL session is more expensive to keep alive (at the server end) than HTTTP, thats for sure
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So the solution is -- speak the protocol from web servers that are very physically close to the database, and talk to them over http
* [11:28] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Yes, colocate the HTTP servers with the MySQL instance they are fronting
* [11:29] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hm, that's interesting mojito I'd heard that mysql connections were really cheap
* [11:29] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: maybe that was in a different context though
* [11:29] [[User:Kyle Jharls|Kyle Jharls]]: Hey, would anyone like to participate in a flash mob?
* [11:29] [[User:Jacek Antonelli|Jacek Antonelli]]: accepted your inventory offer.
* [11:29] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: You were doing MySQL protocol over long distance links???
* [11:29] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: had to
* [11:29] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i read that facebook article... from about a year ago, when thay "only" had 150 mil users, at that time they had 1800 mysql servers working in master/slave replication pairs, their data was partitioned on those 900 dbs
* [11:29] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: that was why llnet was such a big deal -- it greatly improved the quality of those links
* [11:29] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: whispers: So I take it the http server will be talking to the mysql via a local socket instead of TCP/IP?
* [11:30] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: as always key is finding a way to partition data correctly
* [11:30] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: So I take it the http server will be talking to the mysql via a local socket instead of TCP/IP?
* [11:30] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Techwolf: no, separate hosts
* [11:30] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: The actual MySQL connection is not the expensive part. It is any locks that might eb associated with it, etc. Buffer pools. All that stauff
* [11:30] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: But in the same rack room I hope
* [11:31] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah that's the idea
* [11:31] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: right, yes, ok we're on the same page, the locks and stuff are problematic
* [11:31] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: You using NAS disk servers?
* [11:31] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Not for our databases
* [11:31] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: iSCSI, etc
* [11:32] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Not erally sure what hardware we're using, but it's pretty badass
* [11:32] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Very easy to do RAID, backups, reconfigure, etc
* [11:33] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: Has to be badass to handle all the spam. ;-) (could not connect, then got moved to another regine and got spammed from about three bots there)
* [11:33] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Aren't bots illegal now?
* [11:33] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: hahaha
* [11:33] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
* [11:34] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: no they are not, using them for faking traffic is
* [11:34] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I know a big shopping mall that had all these "campers". But when you loko at the payout rate for the cmaping chairs you realized, "nobody could be that desparate. These must be bots"
* [11:34] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: I've been using screenshots for AR instead of copy paste the spam. Seems to work better.
* [11:34] [[User:Arabella Steadham|Arabella Steadham]]: oh people are that desperate
* [11:35] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: btw. there is something wrong with the login servers... if your last region is down, login fails instead of sending you off to a nearby info hub
* [11:35] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: Latif, that just happed to me.
* [11:35] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I mean, fractions of a Linden per half hour???
* [11:35] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hm I've encountered that on dev grids but assumed it was particular to them.
* [11:35] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: (the login problem that is)
* [11:35] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, it happens on the main grid too
* [11:36] [[User:Arabella Steadham|Arabella Steadham]]: many people run alts for the specific purpose of camping
* [11:36] [[User:Arabella Steadham|Arabella Steadham]]: so even a minimal amount adds up
* [11:36] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: make an avatar that is not verified.... take it to a region that is marked pg or mature, log off, then make the region adult, try logging in, it fails
* [11:36] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I think these were traffic-bosting bots, myself, disguised as campers
* [11:36] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Really made performance of the sim bad
* [11:36] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: With the ban on camping and so on, going to be intresting to see how new users earn a little bit of Lindens to get started in SL.
* [11:36] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I have not been back to see since the new edict
* [11:37] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hm.....so the logic that directs you to a "nearby infohub" is basically a) not nearby at all and b) basically just a random selection from a list of "safe locations"
* [11:37] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: There is a nice music store I know that had lots of cmapers. I looked in there yesterdsy and the store was empty
* [11:37] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: I got dumped into....*looks at scrollback*.....
* [11:37] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, it should send you to a different region, login fail is very bad
* [11:37] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah totally Latif
* [11:37] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: They do not really need the campers - the products are so good they sell by word of mouth
* [11:38] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: [http://slurl.com/secondlife/Korea4/13/231/26] from my last location of Aggro that was down, still need to follow up on that.
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: that logic is really old and no one has looked into it -- we do keep stats on teleport success though and if it goes down asses get kicked
* [11:38] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: especially now that i have some regions marked adult, people who lgged off there cannot get back on the grid at all
* [11:38] [[User:Arabella Steadham|Arabella Steadham]]: with the banning of camping, I am seeing a lot more begging
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha really, people just ask you for money?
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I guess that makes sense
* [11:38] [[User:Arabella Steadham|Arabella Steadham]]: oh yes, specially in groups
* [11:39] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I remember seeing people do that a year ago. It must have gotten worse
* [11:39] [[User:Arabella Steadham|Arabella Steadham]]: and of course, then they go to the cheap malls full of ripped stuff to pay a fraction of original price
* [11:39] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: One thing LL can do is make preiminums more attractive. The stripend from those account pump a lot into the SL encominity.
* [11:39] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: There are legitimate freebie stores that are perfectly good for a noob starting out
* [11:39] [[User:Arabella Steadham|Arabella Steadham]]: there are indeed mojito
* [11:40] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: I need to find a list of those freebie store.
* [11:40] [[User:Arabella Steadham|Arabella Steadham]]: many up market stores also offer high quality gifts
* [11:40] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Vienna Freebies is where I started
* [11:40] [[User:Arabella Steadham|Arabella Steadham]]: specially for new people
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: mmm yeah good point about premiums
* [11:42] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Yes, I remember a skin store that had 1L things for people under 30 days old
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: someone actually posted a good idea on my blog post, can't remember what is was now though
* [11:43] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: but it was good lol
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh yes -- keeping transaction logs longer than 30 days for premiums
* [11:43] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I had a premium when I owned land. After taking a big loss on THAT (thank you, LL), I just rent now, so I did not renew the premium
* [11:44] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: eh LL is full of contraversies ;)
* [11:44] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: The stipend was nice though
* [11:45] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing ;)
* [11:45] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so true
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: both a curse and a blessing, because the right hand might be working on something totally awesome
* [11:46] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: like with these adult changes, i asked Blondin who was in charge of it, if a shop/store is adult if it sels multi-pose furniture....
* [11:46] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: he said store now, but a sex club, etc its adult
* [11:46] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Ever see s atore where you cant try out the poses?
* [11:46] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: so i said ok... yesterday i get email from governence team warning that my account is about to be suspended lol
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: you rascal!
* [11:47] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Violation: Indecency lol
* [11:47] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Some people I know got a nastygram from Governance about their DCS combat sim
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I hope that we actually have a "Violation lol" form option
* [11:47] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: Latif, did you respond with Blonden quote?
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: just like we have a "Griefing kekekeke" option
* [11:48] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i took scraenshots of the web page where blondin responds to Q
* [11:48] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: in case it disappeared lol
* [11:48] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: I like to have a "spam" option in the drop down on AR. Right now, there everything but spam itself.
* [11:48] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: gave you blondin2.
* [11:49] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: and btw. sending email "Warning your account is about to be suspended" is bad mojo.
* [11:49] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Depends how the people working in that BDSM store are dressed. lol
* [11:49] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: saying, dude you need to mark your land differently is ok
* [11:49] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I wonder how CCP gets away with being so gung-ho about banning folks
* [11:49] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It seems they have a very militant attitude but their customers love it for some reason
* [11:50] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: CCP?
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: perhaps it's self-selection at work
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Makers of EVE online
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: They're constantly bragging about how many accounts they nuked from orbit
* [11:50] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: heh i pay 3000-4000 USD to Linden Lab a year, one would think they'd be polite to the customers
* [11:51] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Maybe in their case it's more clear-cut
* [11:51] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: That's because EVE is a game with a clear polisity on what and what ins't allowed. So the ban hammer works there.
* [11:52] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah....it's a lot less freeform
* [11:53] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: LL doen't have a clear polisity. The Grifters have a new powerfull tool called the AR report.
* [11:53] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yes
* [11:53] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: and i called support, and they said they have no access to the governence team data lol, you cannot even find out what violation you are supposedly guilty off
* [11:54] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: "wahhh! He ARd me! Make him stop." "You ARd me first!" "Did not" "Did so"
* [11:54] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: Witch, EVE is more freeform then SL, anything is allowed in Zero space.
* [11:54] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Yes, the people with the combat sim were not told what they had done wrong
* [11:55] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: all i got was account about to be suspended for indecency ;) support claims they have no idea whay execlty is the problem... :D
* [11:55] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: so if they "disapepar" me you know what happenned lol
* [11:55] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: More freeform socially, but the rules of the game are much more limited in EVE
* [11:55] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hands out duct tape
* [11:56] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: They have no sex balls at all there, so it had to be the "graphic violeance" section. But that would apply to to ANY DCS combat sim in that case.
* [11:56] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hm....could be
* [11:57] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Is having two sides re-enacting the Pelloponessian War more graphic than an urban shootout? Just because they use swords?
* [11:58] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh man, swords are totally illegal in the UK
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah, with any sort of policy enforced by many people, you're bound to see inconsistencies
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: C.f. the app store
* [11:59] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, are you involved in the IETF new protocol thing at all?
* [11:59] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: VWRAP
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: no......but I know someone who is!
* [12:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hehe
* [12:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Are you following it?
* [12:00] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: who's re-enacting the peloponnesian war?
* [12:01] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, yes, I have this text-client for SL, opensim, etc
* [12:01] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: That was just an example. Nobody I know of. But I have seen battles from Egyptian through Feudal Japan times.
* [12:01] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i wish to add milti grid support when it comes
* [12:01] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Plenty of swords. And archery
* [12:01] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Mojito, is using Radegast as the basis for his accessability project too
* [12:01] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: speech interface to SL basically
* [12:01] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: "her", but I let that pass....
* [12:01] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Yes
* [12:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ossm
* [12:01] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: It is coming along nicely
* [12:01] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: aw man
* [12:02] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Mojito, sorry about that
* [12:02] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: You can dictate your chat. No hands
* [12:02] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: And audible descriptions of things around you.
* [12:02] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: it also does cool things, like it reads chat from nearby avatars in female/male voices depending on their gender
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha that sounds amazing!
* [12:02] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: in 3d too
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: can I download this somewhere?
* [12:03] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Tells you thinks like "Sofa, sittable, 3 meters to your right"
* [12:03] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Yes
* [12:03] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Let me look uip the right URL
* [12:03] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I should have it memorized
* [12:03] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: [http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLetiquette]
* [12:03] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: oops
* [12:03] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: not that
* [12:03] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: https://sourceforge.net/projects/radegastspeech/
* [12:03] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: There
* [12:03] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Works pretty well on Windows
* [12:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ossm
* [12:04] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Linux and Mac in the works
* [12:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: will try it out sometime
* [12:04] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Read the included UserGuide.pdf
* [12:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I should go now though
* [12:04] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Still under development. Updates about every couple weeks
* [12:04] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: In factm, I need to do that this week, to inlcude all the new stuff Latiuf and the others have put in
* [12:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Cool! Look forward to it!
* [12:05] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: my client is at [http://radegastclient.org/] (the base, speech is plugin mojito is working on, and hopefully we'll merge it into the main distro)
* [12:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Thanks so much everyone for the interesting discussion, will see you again soon.
* [12:05] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: my pleasure!
* [12:05] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: take care which
* [12:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: tc
* [12:05] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Radagast has a cool plugin architecture, and several people are working on things for it

User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2009 Oct 8

2009-10-08T19:06:54Z

Which Linden: Created page with '* [11:00] Peter Stindberg: accepted your inventory offer. * [11:00] Youri Ashton: hey which! * [11:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which ...'

* [11:00] [[User:Peter Stindberg|Peter Stindberg]]: accepted your inventory offer.
* [11:00] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: hey which!
* [11:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: good day!
* [11:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: How are you?
* [11:01] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hi all
* [11:01] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Hello
* [11:01] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: fine here!
* [11:02] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: how are you?
* [11:02] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: hi latif
* [11:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I am well. (oh god I sound like my high school chemistry teacher)
* [11:02] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: lol
* [11:02] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hi Which, hi peoples :-)
* [11:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hi!
* [11:03] [[User:SLateIt HUD|SLateIt HUD]]: 1.5: Loading settings
* [11:03] [[User:SLateIt HUD|SLateIt HUD]]: 1.5: SensorRange:15.0
* [11:03] [[User:SLateIt HUD|SLateIt HUD]]: 1.5: RefreshPeriod:1.0
* [11:03] [[User:SLateIt HUD|SLateIt HUD]]: 1.5: MinRating:0
* [11:03] [[User:SLateIt HUD|SLateIt HUD]]: 1.5: FieldOfView:60.0
* [11:03] [[User:SLateIt HUD|SLateIt HUD]]: 1.5: SkipNames:Object,,Tree
* [11:03] [[User:SLateIt HUD|SLateIt HUD]]: 1.5: OverlayRGB:0,1.0,0
* [11:03] [[User:SLateIt HUD|SLateIt HUD]]: 1.5: Tags:animal,animation,art,avatar,books,build,clothes,club,combat,culture,dance,event,fantasy,film,free,furniture,gadget,game,hud,info,land,live,love,money,robot,rpg,science,scifi,script,sculpture,sex,sound,tech,texture,theatre,tutorial,vehicle,weapon,win
* [11:03] [[User:SLateIt HUD|SLateIt HUD]]: 1.5: Interface:Dialog
* [11:03] [[User:SLateIt HUD|SLateIt HUD]]: 1.5: FindResults:20
* [11:03] [[User:SLateIt HUD|SLateIt HUD]]: 1.5: Settings loaded
* Ratings will be overlayed on objects when avatar is stationary
* Click on ratings to rate objects
* See ratings at http://slateit.org
* Chat "/5 Help" for more help
* [11:03] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, you are getting old, dude :)
* [11:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: How's that?
* [11:03] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hey Enkidu, i told you not to press that red button
* [11:03] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, "I am well" ;)
* [11:03] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: hey enkidu!
* [11:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: OH...yeah....get off my lawn etc
* [11:03] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: only old folks would say that
* [11:03] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hehehe
* [11:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hi Fisher!
* [11:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: this is an absurd linden ratio here
* [11:04] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: hey fisher!
* [11:04] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: hi everyone
* [11:04] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: enkidu what did you do to the interwebtubes?
* [11:04] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: Hey Enkidu
* [11:04] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: hey fisher, morg :)
* [11:04] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: Hey Which
* [11:05] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: Youri
* [11:05] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: :)
* [11:05] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: what haven't i done to the tubes
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: snap!
* [11:06] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: looks like most linden pages are broken about now
* [11:06] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: url?
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hmm I'm still seeing diamon lingerie advertised on my dashboard
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: it must be working
* [11:06] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: You have to log on to the Wiki now for some pages. Like Office Hours
* [11:07] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: There is a note there saying they are working on it
* [11:07] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: ah i didn't see that, now i see it
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Ah...lame
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: We don't host those ourselves though
* [11:08] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i can still blame Enkidu, right? :D
* [11:09] [[User:Rhiadra Raviprakash|Rhiadra Raviprakash]]: look at that crap
* [11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It's an interesting phenomenon -- hosting them externally should theoretically increase their reliability but instead what we see is that the incidence of *one* of our sites being busted at any given time goes up
* [11:09] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: naturally!
* [11:09] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: i wasn't actualy involved though
* [11:09] [[User:Rhiadra Raviprakash|Rhiadra Raviprakash]]: age max 20, IQ max, 105
* [11:09] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: But now they can all fail individually, rather than all at once.
* [11:09] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: lol
* [11:09] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: jira and wiki pages are horribly slow, you might want to find new outsourcing partners ;)
* [11:09] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: that leaves me out for sure :)
* [11:10] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: both age and IQ
* [11:10] [[User:Fisher Linden|Fisher Linden]]: let me try that again!
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: There should be some term for that phenomenon -- the paradox of isolation or something
* [11:10] [[User:Rhiadra Raviprakash|Rhiadra Raviprakash]]: lol
* [11:10] [[User:Rhiadra Raviprakash|Rhiadra Raviprakash]]: true
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: You try to remove a single point of failure but end up adding multiple single sources of failure
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: MAybe we should call it the "it's enkidu's fault phenomenon"
* [11:11] [[User:Rhiadra Raviprakash|Rhiadra Raviprakash]]: peace all
* [11:11] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: At least if separated, one failure cant drag down the whjole thing
* [11:12] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but....as we just witnessed, one failure might as well be the whole thing going down
* [11:12] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: which, if it's got a name, at least it's the best name
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hah
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so I dunno, just something I've noticed lately
* [11:13] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: seriously, performance of both outsourced and in house linden pages is borderline tollerable
* [11:13] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I agree.
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah they're all hugely latent like it's 2001
* [11:14] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: And object rezzing seems slower, even not counting the texture bug
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: rezzes some stuff
* [11:14] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: By which I mean, some texture download bug that was not quite fixed when 1.23 shipped
* [11:14] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Its fixed in Snowglobe
* [11:14] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: The download queue gets stuck
* [11:15] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: think thats more asset server related
* [11:15] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Concurrency is not hugegly higher than a year ago, but somehow it seems slower
* [11:15] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: could be wrong ofcourse
* [11:15] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: wonders what lindens are doing, backend irc chatting? :P
* [11:15] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: pr0n downloads? ;)
* [11:16] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: lol
* [11:16] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: shhh
* [11:16] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: something seems keeping them busy ;)
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: lotsa infrastructure projects
* [11:16] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: they just spend to much time at the local sexclub, but shhh ;) dont let em know that we know :p
* [11:16] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: haha
* [11:17] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: during office hours? :P
* [11:17] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: hi ara :)
* [11:17] [[User:Arabella Steadham|Arabella Steadham]]: hi everyone :)
* [11:17] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: take a seat :)
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: did we want to continue talking about transaction ids or are we pretty settled on where we'd like the page to be?
* [11:18] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: your blog post pretty much ended it ;)
* [11:18] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: you have the lead which, isnt it? :)
* [11:18] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: no need to beat it any more
* [11:18] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: hi suae
* [11:18] [[User:Suae Mesic|Suae Mesic]]: hi
* [11:18] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: hey tech
* [11:19] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: we competin here who can hold their breath longer
* [11:19] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: Hi all
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Ha ha ha
* [11:19] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lindens are leading the score board
* [11:19] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: lol
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so what do you all want to talk about? I am open to suggestions
* [11:20] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Well, we are constrained by what you are WILLING to talk about
* [11:20] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: what infrastructure projects are taking place?
* [11:20] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: just too busy getting a castle ready that should help out residents with RL disabilities
* [11:20] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: anything interesting
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: no, all boring
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: :-P
* [11:20] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
* [11:20] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Refactoring an RDBMS schema is never fun
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: well, as you know, my project (and now Enkidu's as well) involves scaling up the L$ backend
* [11:21] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: Any progress on the http-texture project?
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: There are other projects relating to improving the dataserver's performance
* [11:21] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i was reading on facebook infrastructure, how do they manage to scale
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I don't know about http-texture I'm sorry
* [11:21] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: So we can cash-out to PayPal faster than 5 days??
* [11:21] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: as always, the key is data partitioning
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: There are also billing infrastructure projects --- not sure if they'd change paypal's policies though
* [11:22] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: cash out delays are just a policy thing, nothing to do with the infrastructure ;)
* [11:22] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Oh, the bottleneck is on PP's end??
* [11:22] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: Hmm...i open a notecard from a group notice 5 minutes ago and still hasn't opened.
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: That is my understanding given that I've seen that sort of delay on ebay
* [11:22] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, sorry, but it does not hold the water
* [11:22] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: It is true that transferring money into PP from my bank can take 3 days.
* [11:22] [[User:Arabella Steadham|Arabella Steadham]]: I think that depends to a degree on where you live
* [11:23] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: paypal process maspay payments in seconds
* [11:23] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: its linden lab procedure that is responsible for the 5 day delay
* [11:23] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Somehow I suspected that
* [11:24] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Notice how you have to dig to find the Sell Lindens and Cash out functions, but "Buy Lindens" is right up front
* [11:24] [[User:Arabella Steadham|Arabella Steadham]]: I never noticed that
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah that whole itnerface is really old and clunky though
* [11:24] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: You have to sell L$ for local currency as one step, THEN do the PP transfer.
* [11:24] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: That could be streamlined.
* [11:24] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: it's the policy not the technology used...
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Certainly....but policy stuff is generally much harder to change
* [11:25] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: PayPal can not cancel my acocunt for no reason and keep my money. LL CAN do that. SO I prefer to keep my money elsewhere.
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So the dataserver infrastructure stuff is pretty interesting
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: One thing we are doing is converting all dataserver requests to go over http instead of connecting to mysql directly
* [11:26] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Ah, so an HTTP server fronting the MYSQL?
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: (this is not my project so I don't know its schedule or how well it's coming along)
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah basically Mojito
* [11:27] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: That should help keep down the number of MYSQL sessions
* [11:27] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Mojito, offical Linden reason for the 5 day delay where they keep your money is that they need to verify your paypal account, which makes 0 sense if you transfer money every 15 days like i do, they cannot be verifying paypal account 24 times a year
* [11:27] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Conenction pooling
* [11:27] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: And they will ACCEPT money from PP instantly
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It is based on our observation that speaking the MySQL protocol over network connections with even slight unreliability causes stability problems
* [11:28] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: A MySQL session is more expensive to keep alive (at the server end) than HTTTP, thats for sure
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So the solution is -- speak the protocol from web servers that are very physically close to the database, and talk to them over http
* [11:28] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Yes, colocate the HTTP servers with the MySQL instance they are fronting
* [11:29] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hm, that's interesting mojito I'd heard that mysql connections were really cheap
* [11:29] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: maybe that was in a different context though
* [11:29] [[User:Kyle Jharls|Kyle Jharls]]: Hey, would anyone like to participate in a flash mob?
* [11:29] [[User:Jacek Antonelli|Jacek Antonelli]]: accepted your inventory offer.
* [11:29] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: You were doing MySQL protocol over long distance links???
* [11:29] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: had to
* [11:29] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i read that facebook article... from about a year ago, when thay "only" had 150 mil users, at that time they had 1800 mysql servers working in master/slave replication pairs, their data was partitioned on those 900 dbs
* [11:29] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: that was why llnet was such a big deal -- it greatly improved the quality of those links
* [11:29] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: whispers: So I take it the http server will be talking to the mysql via a local socket instead of TCP/IP?
* [11:30] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: as always key is finding a way to partition data correctly
* [11:30] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: So I take it the http server will be talking to the mysql via a local socket instead of TCP/IP?
* [11:30] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Techwolf: no, separate hosts
* [11:30] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: The actual MySQL connection is not the expensive part. It is any locks that might eb associated with it, etc. Buffer pools. All that stauff
* [11:30] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: But in the same rack room I hope
* [11:31] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah that's the idea
* [11:31] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: right, yes, ok we're on the same page, the locks and stuff are problematic
* [11:31] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: You using NAS disk servers?
* [11:31] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Not for our databases
* [11:31] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: iSCSI, etc
* [11:32] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Not erally sure what hardware we're using, but it's pretty badass
* [11:32] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Very easy to do RAID, backups, reconfigure, etc
* [11:33] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: Has to be badass to handle all the spam. ;-) (could not connect, then got moved to another regine and got spammed from about three bots there)
* [11:33] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Aren't bots illegal now?
* [11:33] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: hahaha
* [11:33] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
* [11:34] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: no they are not, using them for faking traffic is
* [11:34] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I know a big shopping mall that had all these "campers". But when you loko at the payout rate for the cmaping chairs you realized, "nobody could be that desparate. These must be bots"
* [11:34] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: I've been using screenshots for AR instead of copy paste the spam. Seems to work better.
* [11:34] [[User:Arabella Steadham|Arabella Steadham]]: oh people are that desperate
* [11:35] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: btw. there is something wrong with the login servers... if your last region is down, login fails instead of sending you off to a nearby info hub
* [11:35] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: Latif, that just happed to me.
* [11:35] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I mean, fractions of a Linden per half hour???
* [11:35] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hm I've encountered that on dev grids but assumed it was particular to them.
* [11:35] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: (the login problem that is)
* [11:35] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, it happens on the main grid too
* [11:36] [[User:Arabella Steadham|Arabella Steadham]]: many people run alts for the specific purpose of camping
* [11:36] [[User:Arabella Steadham|Arabella Steadham]]: so even a minimal amount adds up
* [11:36] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: make an avatar that is not verified.... take it to a region that is marked pg or mature, log off, then make the region adult, try logging in, it fails
* [11:36] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I think these were traffic-bosting bots, myself, disguised as campers
* [11:36] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Really made performance of the sim bad
* [11:36] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: With the ban on camping and so on, going to be intresting to see how new users earn a little bit of Lindens to get started in SL.
* [11:36] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I have not been back to see since the new edict
* [11:37] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hm.....so the logic that directs you to a "nearby infohub" is basically a) not nearby at all and b) basically just a random selection from a list of "safe locations"
* [11:37] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: There is a nice music store I know that had lots of cmapers. I looked in there yesterdsy and the store was empty
* [11:37] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: I got dumped into....*looks at scrollback*.....
* [11:37] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, it should send you to a different region, login fail is very bad
* [11:37] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah totally Latif
* [11:37] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: They do not really need the campers - the products are so good they sell by word of mouth
* [11:38] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: [http://slurl.com/secondlife/Korea4/13/231/26] from my last location of Aggro that was down, still need to follow up on that.
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: that logic is really old and no one has looked into it -- we do keep stats on teleport success though and if it goes down asses get kicked
* [11:38] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: especially now that i have some regions marked adult, people who lgged off there cannot get back on the grid at all
* [11:38] [[User:Arabella Steadham|Arabella Steadham]]: with the banning of camping, I am seeing a lot more begging
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha really, people just ask you for money?
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I guess that makes sense
* [11:38] [[User:Arabella Steadham|Arabella Steadham]]: oh yes, specially in groups
* [11:39] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I remember seeing people do that a year ago. It must have gotten worse
* [11:39] [[User:Arabella Steadham|Arabella Steadham]]: and of course, then they go to the cheap malls full of ripped stuff to pay a fraction of original price
* [11:39] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: One thing LL can do is make preiminums more attractive. The stripend from those account pump a lot into the SL encominity.
* [11:39] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: There are legitimate freebie stores that are perfectly good for a noob starting out
* [11:39] [[User:Arabella Steadham|Arabella Steadham]]: there are indeed mojito
* [11:40] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: I need to find a list of those freebie store.
* [11:40] [[User:Arabella Steadham|Arabella Steadham]]: many up market stores also offer high quality gifts
* [11:40] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Vienna Freebies is where I started
* [11:40] [[User:Arabella Steadham|Arabella Steadham]]: specially for new people
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: mmm yeah good point about premiums
* [11:42] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Yes, I remember a skin store that had 1L things for people under 30 days old
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: someone actually posted a good idea on my blog post, can't remember what is was now though
* [11:43] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: but it was good lol
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh yes -- keeping transaction logs longer than 30 days for premiums
* [11:43] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I had a premium when I owned land. After taking a big loss on THAT (thank you, LL), I just rent now, so I did not renew the premium
* [11:44] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: eh LL is full of contraversies ;)
* [11:44] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: The stipend was nice though
* [11:45] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing ;)
* [11:45] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so true
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: both a curse and a blessing, because the right hand might be working on something totally awesome
* [11:46] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: like with these adult changes, i asked Blondin who was in charge of it, if a shop/store is adult if it sels multi-pose furniture....
* [11:46] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: he said store now, but a sex club, etc its adult
* [11:46] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Ever see s atore where you cant try out the poses?
* [11:46] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: so i said ok... yesterday i get email from governence team warning that my account is about to be suspended lol
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: you rascal!
* [11:47] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Violation: Indecency lol
* [11:47] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Some people I know got a nastygram from Governance about their DCS combat sim
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I hope that we actually have a "Violation lol" form option
* [11:47] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: Latif, did you respond with Blonden quote?
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: just like we have a "Griefing kekekeke" option
* [11:48] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i took scraenshots of the web page where blondin responds to Q
* [11:48] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: in case it disappeared lol
* [11:48] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: I like to have a "spam" option in the drop down on AR. Right now, there everything but spam itself.
* [11:48] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: gave you blondin2.
* [11:49] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: and btw. sending email "Warning your account is about to be suspended" is bad mojo.
* [11:49] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Depends how the people working in that BDSM store are dressed. lol
* [11:49] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: saying, dude you need to mark your land differently is ok
* [11:49] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I wonder how CCP gets away with being so gung-ho about banning folks
* [11:49] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It seems they have a very militant attitude but their customers love it for some reason
* [11:50] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: CCP?
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: perhaps it's self-selection at work
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Makers of EVE online
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: They're constantly bragging about how many accounts they nuked from orbit
* [11:50] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: heh i pay 3000-4000 USD to Linden Lab a year, one would think they'd be polite to the customers
* [11:51] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Maybe in their case it's more clear-cut
* [11:51] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: That's because EVE is a game with a clear polisity on what and what ins't allowed. So the ban hammer works there.
* [11:52] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah....it's a lot less freeform
* [11:53] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: LL doen't have a clear polisity. The Grifters have a new powerfull tool called the AR report.
* [11:53] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yes
* [11:53] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: and i called support, and they said they have no access to the governence team data lol, you cannot even find out what violation you are supposedly guilty off
* [11:54] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: "wahhh! He ARd me! Make him stop." "You ARd me first!" "Did not" "Did so"
* [11:54] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: Witch, EVE is more freeform then SL, anything is allowed in Zero space.
* [11:54] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Yes, the people with the combat sim were not told what they had done wrong
* [11:55] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: all i got was account about to be suspended for indecency ;) support claims they have no idea whay execlty is the problem... :D
* [11:55] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: so if they "disapepar" me you know what happenned lol
* [11:55] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: More freeform socially, but the rules of the game are much more limited in EVE
* [11:55] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hands out duct tape
* [11:56] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: They have no sex balls at all there, so it had to be the "graphic violeance" section. But that would apply to to ANY DCS combat sim in that case.
* [11:56] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hm....could be
* [11:57] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Is having two sides re-enacting the Pelloponessian War more graphic than an urban shootout? Just because they use swords?
* [11:58] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh man, swords are totally illegal in the UK
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah, with any sort of policy enforced by many people, you're bound to see inconsistencies
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: C.f. the app store
* [11:59] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, are you involved in the IETF new protocol thing at all?
* [11:59] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: VWRAP
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: no......but I know someone who is!
* [12:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hehe
* [12:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Are you following it?
* [12:00] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: who's re-enacting the peloponnesian war?
* [12:01] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, yes, I have this text-client for SL, opensim, etc
* [12:01] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: That was just an example. Nobody I know of. But I have seen battles from Egyptian through Feudal Japan times.
* [12:01] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i wish to add milti grid support when it comes
* [12:01] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Plenty of swords. And archery
* [12:01] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Mojito, is using Radegast as the basis for his accessability project too
* [12:01] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: speech interface to SL basically
* [12:01] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: "her", but I let that pass....
* [12:01] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Yes
* [12:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ossm
* [12:01] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: It is coming along nicely
* [12:01] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: aw man
* [12:02] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Mojito, sorry about that
* [12:02] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: You can dictate your chat. No hands
* [12:02] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: And audible descriptions of things around you.
* [12:02] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: it also does cool things, like it reads chat from nearby avatars in female/male voices depending on their gender
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha that sounds amazing!
* [12:02] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: in 3d too
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: can I download this somewhere?
* [12:03] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Tells you thinks like "Sofa, sittable, 3 meters to your right"
* [12:03] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Yes
* [12:03] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Let me look uip the right URL
* [12:03] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I should have it memorized
* [12:03] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: [http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLetiquette]
* [12:03] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: oops
* [12:03] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: not that
* [12:03] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: https://sourceforge.net/projects/radegastspeech/
* [12:03] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: There
* [12:03] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Works pretty well on Windows
* [12:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ossm
* [12:04] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Linux and Mac in the works
* [12:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: will try it out sometime
* [12:04] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Read the included UserGuide.pdf
* [12:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I should go now though
* [12:04] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Still under development. Updates about every couple weeks
* [12:04] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: In factm, I need to do that this week, to inlcude all the new stuff Latiuf and the others have put in
* [12:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Cool! Look forward to it!
* [12:05] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: my client is at [http://radegastclient.org/] (the base, speech is plugin mojito is working on, and hopefully we'll merge it into the main distro)
* [12:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Thanks so much everyone for the interesting discussion, will see you again soon.
* [12:05] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: my pleasure!
* [12:05] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: take care which
* [12:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: tc
* [12:05] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Radagast has a cool plugin architecture, and several people are working on things for it

User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2009 Oct 1

2009-10-01T19:15:32Z

Which Linden: Created page with '* [11:00] Morgaine Dinova: Hi peeps * [11:00] Which Linden: what is up my rabbits * [11:00] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinov...'

* [11:00] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hi peeps
* [11:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: what is up my rabbits
* [11:00] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hiya Which!
* [11:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hello
* [11:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ok that was a pretty lame pun off of "peeps" there
* [11:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: let's pretend that didn't happen
* [11:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hehe
* [11:01] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: LOL, so bad I still haven't figured it out :P
* [11:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha, how are y'all?
* [11:01] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: hi guys
* [11:01] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Fine tnx, you?
* [11:01] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hey Enkidu
* [11:01] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hi Enkidu! New Linden?
* [11:01] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: newish!
* [11:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: heh I think he's almost a year old!
* [11:02] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Oh, nearly a year old, hehe. Well nice to see you in Which's OH :-)
* [11:02] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: 11 months on saturday
* [11:02] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: what do you at the lab enkidu?
* [11:02] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: thanks! i'll be judging for style
* [11:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: what on earth is up with your av? Do I need some sculptie textures downloaded?
* [11:03] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: ^^ i have no style :p
* [11:03] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I don't do "form", just "function" :-)
* [11:03] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: i do lots of webby stuff
* [11:03] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: ah i see
* [11:03] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Ew
* [11:03] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Commiserations ^_^
* [11:04] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: spent 10 years doing webby stuff lol
* [11:04] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: Thought those sculpts would never load
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: heh there we go
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so...yeah, did you all want to talk webby stuff?
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: you may recall that last week we talked about the transactions history page
* [11:05] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: So annoying having to fetch this grass every week. We're here regularly, clearly the 1GB cache is inadequate or non-functional.
* [11:06] [[User:Elbereth Witte|Elbereth Witte]]: or he updaqtes the grass texture every week to psych you out :-)
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I change one pixel each time :-)
* [11:06] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: haha
* [11:06] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: lol
* [11:07] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: randomizes the UUIDs from a pool of identifical textures
* [11:07] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I sometimes wonder if the cache never gets any love because Lindens have high-bandwidth access to the grid, so they don't see the non-working cache as a problem.
* [11:07] [[User:Elbereth Witte|Elbereth Witte]]: bandwidth does have value, wether they say so or not, and they mostly likely know that
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: technically the QA team does stuff through DSL
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: and also don't forget we have offices all over the world
* [11:08] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I would dedicate a 1TB drive to the cache .... if it let me.
* [11:08] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yeah and M's been in Amsterdam on "business" ;)
* [11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: heh heh
* [11:09] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: haha
* [11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ain't no business like show business!
* [11:09] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: especially in amsterdam ;)
* [11:09] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: [http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLSquid_Proxy]
* [11:09] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Anyway, transactions ...
* [11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah, so, some conversation continues on WEB-1321
* [11:09] [[User:JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB-1321|JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB-1321]]:
* [#WEB-1321] [[User:Transaction History,|Transaction History,]]: the transaction number should remain a sequential number, not a UID
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: loves that jirahelper
* [11:10] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yeah, and sql sequences ;)
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'm still assuming that the major problem with uuids is that they are too long
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: and that simply chopping off the trunk will suffice to improve the situation
* [11:11] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: resedents often need to compare transaction ids
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: there will be a slight chance of collision with just a prefix, but it's really low
* [11:11] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: using uuid for this purpose is suboptimal
* [11:12] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: why is that, latif?
* [11:12] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I think the Jira opener merely wants UUIDs hidden. Technically, you can't replace UUIDs with an incrementing count without adding a Single Point of Failure and a barrier to scalability.
* [11:12] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: what happens if you run a UUID through MD5?
* [11:12] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: transaction IDs are not something hidden, something residents don't see
* [11:12] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: they are used in everyday workflow
* [11:12] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: using uuids is not very user friendly
* [11:13] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: was thinking more in terms of compression possibilities, though MD5 probably wouldn't compress
* [11:13] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i understand the technical difficultyy you might have getting numerical IDs
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: saijanai: this is the md5 of a uuid: "30dde8348ce93f890ea863847920eee0"
* [11:13] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: but the problem has been solved gazillion times in applications that use user exposed transaction ids
* [11:13] [[User:Elbereth Witte|Elbereth Witte]]: a cryptographic hash that compresses well is a failed hash IMO
* [11:14] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: SQL construsct of sequence has been invented for this purpose specificially
* [11:14] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: It doesn't matter to code whether a transaction identifier is user-friendly or not. User-friendliness should never compromise functionality. If UUIDs are not user-friendly, just hide them behind a local view or something.
* [11:14] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Elbereth++
* [11:14] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: using hashes is also not good
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so just as a point of reference, here is a paypal transaction id: 7KY79262PN385345U
* [11:15] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i need to be able to go to which and complain about system stealing 150k from my accouint and give him transaction number
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: it looks like paypal is using base 36
* [11:15] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: This is a case of what's good for the function being bad for manual use and visbility. So keep them separate.
* [11:15] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: if i was hashed he would not be able to know which uuid was it
* [11:16] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i deal daily with customers sending me transaction details
* [11:17] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i know how an ordinary resident reacts when he sees that now its an uuid
* [11:17] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: the reaction is WTF ;)
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ok but any change will elicit that reaction
* [11:17] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: oh well ;)
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: we need concrete reasons beyond "change is bad"
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: :-)
* [11:18] [[User:Elbereth Witte|Elbereth Witte]]: good chang isn't all that bad
* [11:18] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i said using uuids was suboptimal, not a deal breaker
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so yeah it looks like paypal is using 88-bit transaction ids, that's a little shorter than 128 bits, and the base-36 compresses its length
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: maybe we should consider base-36 for our ids
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: would make it annoying internally though
* [11:19] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: i'm curious, what is it about a numeric id that is intrinsically better than something in hex?
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: part of the other win of converting to uuids is that those are what we use internally too
* [11:20] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Enkidu, nothing for me, but i am a software engineeer
* [11:20] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: ;)
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha ha, this seems like a case of the customer not knowing what they want
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so just as an example I converted a uuid to base36
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: uuid: 22d4dcdbaebb47fab925a871cc75ee48 base36: 228hqxz4jcask4cck0o8ggw0k
* [11:21] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, if you went with i system that does not use sequences, bite the bullet and stick with UUIDs, it would just make it event workse trying to "fix" it with base36, hashes or whatever
* [11:22] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: i think some people think uuid's are weak because they hear all the time that theres no reason to hide uuid's of avatars, etc... this would make them think transactions may also be more open then they'd like (only in their minds, obviously)
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I think I agree, Latif
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so... the other smart thing that Paypal does, is they deemphasize the transaction id
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: it's in small text and you have to know what you're looking for to find it
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: the emphasized data is: date/time, other party, amount, type
* [11:23] [[User:Ardy Lay|Ardy Lay]]: Some people see hexadecimal and think they have found the key to the city.
* [11:23] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: that's a very interesting observation, twisted
* [11:23] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so the clear intent is that the transaction id is only used if these other fields are not adequate
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah I agree -- that is interesting
* [11:24] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: especially considering sequential integers are actually predictable
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: uh.....I guess if we had an API that allowed you to get any person's transaction by id, we'd have an issue (but we don't)
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: heh also good point enkidu
* [11:26] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: of course the real solution would be to make transactions more reliable so i and my customers don't need to compare transaction IDs daily ;)
* [11:26] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: lol
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: true dat
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah...but that's a big problem that may require a refactoring to solve
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: we gotta save the central database first :-)
* [11:28] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: two main problems with in-world commerce related to transactions
* [11:29] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Right click -> pay object is no guaratnee that object's money() event will fire
* [11:29] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: and secodn, there is no way to tell if inventory offer was successful or not
* [11:30] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: object -> agent inventory offer that is
* [11:30] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yes, definitely agreed that that situation is complete crap
* [11:31] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: though the money() event one is somewhat more challenging to solve
* [11:31] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: so daily i have "i haved payed your vendor but did not receive the produce" kind of situation
* [11:31] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: product*
* [11:31] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: if your product is produce.... :-)
* [11:31] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hehe
* [11:31] [[User:Elbereth Witte|Elbereth Witte]]: I'm surprised to hear money() is harder than an inventroy give feedback thingy
* [11:32] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: griefers sure liek this place lol
* [11:32] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oh hey poppy, didn't see ya till now
* [11:32] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: poppy probably brought the greifers with him
* [11:33] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hehe
* [11:33] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hiya Poppy :-)
* [11:33] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: he's away
* [11:33] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: i like the base 36 encoding of the uuid, myself
* [11:34] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: They look pretty similar
* [11:34] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Enkidu: actually you're right to be skeptical, I don't really know what goes into either and am just guessing
* [11:35] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah, I think the base36 is slightly better, but not enough better that it's worth the delta between what we use internally
* [11:35] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: actually internally for support purposes we don't use transactions ids at all
* [11:35] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: the UI doesn't even show 'em
* [11:35] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: heh
* [11:36] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: how do you deal with a situation that happen to be that transaction took 150k out of an account just because it felt like it? ;)
* [11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: we use date/time and amount
* [11:37] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: but amount can be fsced up as you know
* [11:37] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: it is rare that there are multiple transactions in a second
* [11:37] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: heh, i forget what i was skeptical about
* [11:37] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Just give peeps a front end to transaction Ids based on time, disambiguating identical times with a suffix, plus a link to the actual UUID, and job done. They'll be happy.
* [11:37] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: well actually the amount is always correct; it is the end balances that are sent to the viewer which is sometimes incorrect
* [11:38] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: and in the transaction history
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: I like that idea
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: yeah, and in the history; but end balance only
* [11:38] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: i've been thinking about transaction web search too
* [11:38] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: It avoids the non-scalable trap of monotonic counters.
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yup, and then there's no big scary id unless you go looking for it
* [11:39] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: eh
* [11:39] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: that would be worst of all solutions, to me
* [11:40] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: orly? why's that?
* [11:41] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i need to know some unique transaction id, date time is not good enough
* [11:41] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: what if you could search on any of the transaction details?
* [11:42] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: we have cases where customer pays once, and system charges them twice, i need to see those two transactions that occur within few ms of one another
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I agree we should not nuke the id altogether, but making it subsidiary to the other details seems reasonable to me
* [11:42] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: eh
* [11:42] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Latif: you would still get the UUID by dereferencing the nice friendly identifier
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so i.e. they'd have the same time but they'd have two different suffixes
* [11:42] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yep
* [11:43] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: you know that you can have two identitac transactiosn at almost the sime time, second one being a system error, right?
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yup
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so, time + unique
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: unique disambiguates if time is the same
* [11:43] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i tell you from my personal experience, and i deal with this daily
* [11:43] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: sounds like a really bad idea to me
* [11:43] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: 20091001.<time-order>.<disambiguating-suffix>
* [11:44] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yeah why make it simple when you can obfuscate it to hell
* [11:44] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Latif: if you think it's bad, then say why. :-)
* [11:44] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: We can only deal with technical objections, not with "I don't like it" :-)
* [11:44] [[User:Elbereth Witte|Elbereth Witte]]: the date thing sounds fluffy, I prefer raw debugability, but from the LL supprot millions perspective, sounds okay
* [11:45] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: oh well you guys who never deal with custoemrs seem to have it all under control ;)
* [11:45] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: dang it, we're trying to listen to you, don't get all emo on us!
* [11:45] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Latif: that's still not a technical objection
* [11:45] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: :-)
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ok maybe a better way to phrase it would be: other than sequence numbers, what would be the ideal way for transactions to be formatted?
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: to handle this customer use case?
* [11:47] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Personally I'm fine with UUIDs, but if people want something friendlier, then this is a way of achieving it, without adding a non-scalable monotonic counter.
* [11:47] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: how would you construst this disambiguation methot? do you really want to make it any slower than it already is.
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I think the disambiguation method would just be (some subset of) the uuid
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: basically it would be a UI thing more than a technical thing
* [11:48] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: does the system guaranty that the same transaction has the exect same timestamp on both ends?
* [11:49] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Nah, its very simple. When the code retrieves a transaction set, the transactions are sorted into time order, and all those with identical timestamps are given separate suffixes in arbitrary order. Extremely simple, and can't break.
* [11:49] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: currently, yes -- but that is actually a great point, that it may not hold true forever
* [11:49] [[User:Elbereth Witte|Elbereth Witte]]: even when something is going wrong? :-
* [11:49] [[User:Elbereth Witte|Elbereth Witte]]: )
* [11:49] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: It doesn't even break when you have a UUID clash, haha
* [11:49] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: you are adding a level of complexit in ensuring that obfuscated id is same for both me and my customer
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: agh actually new identifiers, while simple algoorithmically, are not ideal for database-y reasons
* [11:50] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: they're not in the database. Only UUIDs in the database.
* [11:50] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: It's just a customer view
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'm also not a fan of showing something to Residents that requires an inverse transform to get back to what's in the database though
* [11:51] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Fine, live with the problem then. One can only take a horse to water .... :P
* [11:51] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Heh :-) It's a complicated problem
* [11:51] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: heh
* [11:52] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I think I am coming around to the notion that timestamps can't really save us
* [11:52] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Nah, of all the problems before us, that qualifies as the easiest :P
* [11:52] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It's a problem that involves subjective opinion, therefore it's really complicated for engineers :-)
* [11:53] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yeah well, that's nothing new, that the customer doesn't know what he wants :P
* [11:54] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So as another example from the rest of the world, ING uses short integers for transaction ids that appear to be sequence numbers associated with the account
* [11:54] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: as i said, the problem has been dealt with gazillion of times, tradiotionally using database construct called sequences. if you have decided to abondon this traditional model and go with uuids, stick with it, and display them as transaction ids
* [11:54] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So your first transaction on ING is transaction 1; so there's no way to correlate transactions between accounts
* [11:55] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Would you be so kind as to point me at another company/site that does transactions and gives out identifiers that are intended for two customers to compare with each other?
* [11:55] [[User:Ardy Lay|Ardy Lay]]: I still hear people whining about having to dial 10 digit telephone numbers instead of 7. My response is that when I was a kid I only had to dial 5, so deal with it. I do and I have dyslexia.
* [11:55] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Paypal was one that I could think of, but I couldn't think of another
* [11:55] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Ardy: only 5??? crazy
* [11:55] [[User:Poppy Linden|Poppy Linden]]: Sounds like you're saying account_id.seuence_id is unique
* [11:56] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Well we're trying to take a global view because of the massive scalability needed up ahead, so making UUIDs makes sense. The rest is just a matter of presentation. The tail shouldn't wag the dog.
* [11:56] [[User:Ardy Lay|Ardy Lay]]: Which, yes. It was a mechanical telephone switch and we had rotary dials.
* [11:56] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: using* UUIDs
* [11:56] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: Which: Eventually you'll be hearing "only 10??? crazy"
* [11:56] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: heh!
* [11:56] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: :P
* [11:57] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: i'm hearing: "let's change phone numbers to uuids!"
* [11:57] [[User:Elbereth Witte|Elbereth Witte]]: I hate having to use the Mars prefix!
* [11:57] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hopefully by that point people will be saying "you had to remember a number?? crazy"
* [11:57] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: lol
* [11:57] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, i already say that lol
* [11:57] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hasn't dialed actal number in ages
* [11:57] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: Maybe in the future we'll be memorizing IPv6 addresses.
* [11:58] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Funny how the Git community is full of people asking that the tail should wag the dog too. They don't get "decentralized".
* [11:58] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i still remember some dns ip's in case i need to look up
* [11:58] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: like 4.2.2.4 if you ever need one in a hurry ;)
* [11:58] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: lol
* [11:58] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah it always makes you look more competent to type that in there in an emergecny
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: that's a good one, I will remember that
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: really useful to debug dns issues
* [11:59] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yeah
* [12:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: actually all from 4.2.2.2 - 4.2.2.6 are valid name servers that let anybody use them
* [12:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: tries not to DOS them
* [12:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ok well, it's getting around time to wrap this up, I think we had some interesting ideas here
* [12:00] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: There's also 4.0.0.1 and 4.0.0.2
* [12:00] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: me too
* [12:00] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: this was neat
* [12:01] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: dig -x 4.2.2.4 | grep PTR.
* 4.2.2.4.in-addr.arpa. 86400 IN PTR vnsc-pri-dsl.genuity.net.
* [12:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hopefully one of the UI specialists will get some time to wokr on the page pretty soon and then --- radness will ensue :-)
* [12:01] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Those are handy, cheers
* [12:01] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: :)
* [12:02] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hehe :)
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: awesome folks
* [12:02] [[User:Enkidu Linden|Enkidu Linden]]: i'm heading out. thanks you guys!
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: thanks again for coming by and being awesome
* [12:02] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: Fare well everyone
* [12:02] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: thanks for hosting ;)
* [12:02] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: have a good day
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: will see you next week

User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2009 Sep 24

2009-09-24T19:09:33Z

Which Linden: Created page with '* [11:01] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya peeps * [11:01] Slee Mayo: hi morg * [11:01] Twisted Laws: hi Morgaine * [11:...'

* [11:01] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hiya peeps
* [11:01] [[User:Slee Mayo|Slee Mayo]]: hi morg
* [11:01] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: hi Morgaine
* [11:01] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: hi Latif
* [11:02] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hello all
* [11:02] [[User:Slee Mayo|Slee Mayo]]: hello
* [11:02] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: How goes?
* [11:02] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: heh lindens village getting griefed again
* [11:02] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: yeah
* [11:02] [[User:Slee Mayo|Slee Mayo]]: it's good training
* [11:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hey there everyone
* [11:02] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: going good for me
* [11:02] [[User:Slee Mayo|Slee Mayo]]: hello
* [11:02] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hi Which!
* [11:02] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: hello Which
* [11:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: did someone say we're getting griefed?
* [11:03] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yeah
* [11:03] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: hi which!
* [11:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: how come I don't feel any grief?
* [11:03] [[User:Slee Mayo|Slee Mayo]]: were
* [11:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oh
* [11:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hah
* [11:03] [[User:Slee Mayo|Slee Mayo]]: well, i still see particle
* [11:03] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: cause its harmless grief
* [11:03] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: it disappeared, some other linden must have fixed it
* [11:03] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: plexus is cleaning it up it appears
* [11:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: plexus is a pro
* [11:04] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: yes
* [11:04] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i have my draw disance at 256, i see grief coming from a far far away place lol
* [11:04] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Talking about griefing, Which, is there a Linden with a direct interest in anti-griefing measures in the client? Anti-griefing server-side concerns many Lindens, but I don't hear anything about client-side.
* [11:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha nce
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: no specific linden comes to mind, seems like a team sort of effort though
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: generally if there's a specific Linden associated with something it's both a plus and a minus
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: plus: single source of truth
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: minus: that person is going to be stressed and viewing it as a temporary situation
* [11:06] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i think most useful thing would be the ability to identify particle owner
* [11:06] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: kind of hard to find the source as it is now
* [11:06] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: you can find pretty quickly partcile source by enabling particle beacon
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah that would be lovely
* [11:07] [[User:Slee Mayo|Slee Mayo]]: advanced > rendering > info displays > particles helps to locate the source
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: in general I'd love for more "find the source of X" functionality in the viewer
* [11:07] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: but we hear nothing at all from any viewer-oriented Linden about client-side measures, which is why I was wondering. Eg. we often talking about griefing measures with Andrew/Simon, but he always distances himself from the client.
* [11:07] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: look in old Dale Glass code, he has an excellent Event viewer that shows particles owners/sources
* [11:07] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Imaze you can find the object emitting the particle with beacons, but long lived particles can travel far away
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: like if you could click on a line of chat and see the source (avatar or object) -- seems like something that could be incorporated into Snowglobe
* [11:07] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Twisted: yeah, lots of 3rd party activity, versus none from Lindens. It's odd.
* [11:08] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: hmmm i did that in mine Which :)
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'm pretty sure we do things, like we throttled the notifications at one point (both sim and viewer side)
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Twisted: nice!
* [11:08] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: i still haven't figured how to make patch files on windows tho so i'm not yet submitting
* [11:09] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: twisted, install cygwin, fire up MinTTY and feel right at home ;)
* [11:09] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: ok, i'll check it out
* [11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah cygwin == das bomba
* [11:10] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: maybe the perception is skewed by not having a viewer-oriented tech Linden other than Nyx/Papi/Qarl to talk to, and they're all concerned with graphics only.
* [11:10] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i backup my winboxes with rdiff-backuo over ssh ;)
* [11:10] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Periapse is no longer doing OHs :-(
* [11:10] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Peri would be ideal.
* [11:10] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: well viwer lindens are all in stealth mode... viewer02 being top secret and all
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: yes certainly
* [11:11] [[User:Slee Mayo|Slee Mayo]]: hi aimee
* [11:12] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I am not nearly as in-touch with the viewer team as I used to be; the company expands like the universe and us galaxies recede from each other
* [11:12] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: heya aimee
* [11:12] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: hi
* [11:12] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hi!
* [11:12] [[User:Slee Mayo|Slee Mayo]]: compartmental
* [11:12] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: which, i knew there was dark energy in the lab :P
* [11:12] [[User:Slee Mayo|Slee Mayo]]: like the government
* [11:12] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: There sure are some strange quarks here
* [11:12] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So, while I got ya here could I ask for a touch of debugging help?
* [11:13] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: oks
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: If you have a moment, log in to secndlife.com, go to https://secure-web20.secondlife.com/my/account/transactions.php
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: and download a bunch of transactions in xml format
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: then tell me if the xml is ill-formed
* [11:14] [[User:Slee Mayo|Slee Mayo]]: ko
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: is helping enkidu with WEB-1043
* [11:14] [[User:JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB-1043|JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB-1043]]:
* [#WEB-1043] [[User:Transaction History|Transaction History]]: (page timeout)
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeahhh! jira-helper!
* [11:15] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: well i don't have 15k transactions
* [11:16] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: I don't like how transaction tags name is changing - for example: "<transaction_1942162612>"
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah, the new problem is new
* [11:16] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: it came up ok in excel
* [11:16] [[User:Slee Mayo|Slee Mayo]]: i've downloaded 2 so far, all look good to me, nothing out of place
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: scroll down to the bottom of the jira, there's a completely separate issue in the comments
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: awesome, thanks slee
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Imaze: agreed about that
* [11:17] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: makes parsing of xml hard
* [11:17] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: or harder...
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Imaze: if you go to the "new format" page the new xml download format doesn't have changing tag names
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: new page = https://secure-web20.secondlife.com/my/account/transactions.php?uuid=yes
* [11:17] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: I like the receding galaxies metaphor ... although it's a bit worrying :P
* [11:18] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: ah... sorry
* [11:18] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It's necessary though Morgaine; I actually think we'll be better off when the viewer team has very little coupling with the server team
* [11:19] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: downloaded 70k lines xml 2mb with no problem.... could be php default timeout if it takes more than 30 seconds to gather the data
* [11:19] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: i'm missing how to get them in xml
* [11:19] [[User:Slee Mayo|Slee Mayo]]: downloaded 2 on the new format page, both look good
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: latif: oooh good point
* [11:19] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: is schema available somewhere?
* [11:20] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: i found it
* [11:20] [[User:Slee Mayo|Slee Mayo]]: i'm using openoffice
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Imaze: not that I know of
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: honestly we should be just emitting llsd
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but....not my battle to fight
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: actually it's weird that we don't have any streaming llsd formatters; all of them operate on big chunks of data at once
* [11:21] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: hmmm this is all i get... <?xml version="1.0" ?>
* <transactions />
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Twisted: perhaps you have no transactions?
* [11:21] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: i get the list in xls tho
* [11:21] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: no, i have a bunch
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: weir
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: d
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: what url were you using to download the xml?
* [11:22] [[User:Slee Mayo|Slee Mayo]]: oh, sorry, were you wanting us to view the xml via the website? i downloaded mine
* [11:22] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: 5 displayed for today but maybe its not including 0's when i click the xml link
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: slee: no that's right
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: downloading was right
* [11:22] [[User:Slee Mayo|Slee Mayo]]: k
* [11:23] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: there was some arguments that using UUIDs as transaction ids is not good - because they are needed when there is failed delivery from some vendor and then customer and merchant are trying to identify transaction
* [11:23] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: https://secure-web20.secondlife.com/my/account/download_transactions.php?date_start=2009-09-24&date_end=2009-09-24&type=xml&include_zero=yes&uuid=yes
* [11:23] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Imaze: eh? Isn't a unique identifier a unique identifier?
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Twisted: oh ok, will try that out
* [11:24] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: yes... but for some dude who hasn't never saw those - they might be first really hard
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah, agreed that they're harder to red
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I was trying to promote some sort of "uuid prefix" idea, but that didn't go anywhere
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: like, we could display only the first 10 chars from a uuid and it would be "unique enough"
* [11:25] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: getting a next int is too difficult to scale?
* [11:25] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: most of times
* [11:26] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: humm... new idea... that I need to workout someday - "easy to read UUIDs" :)
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: well it's more that when we move databases we can't guarantee that the ints will remain the same
* [11:27] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: And when we shard the database then they will duplicate each other
* [11:27] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: well in mysql might be difficult, most "real" db's have counter types specifically for it
* [11:28] [[User:Slee Mayo|Slee Mayo]]: no table locking?
* [11:28] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: is mysql still stuck with autoincrement fields only, and no real counters
* [11:28] [[User:Slee Mayo|Slee Mayo]]: yes
* [11:28] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: has not played with it for a while
* [11:28] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: ah ok
* [11:28] [[User:Slee Mayo|Slee Mayo]]: if you delete a record, you just have a missing number
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I am so mysql-centric that I don't even know what a counter is
* [11:29] [[User:Slee Mayo|Slee Mayo]]: you can replace that record though...a specific number
* [11:29] [[User:Slee Mayo|Slee Mayo]]: but i wouldn't recommend trying to reindex it
* [11:29] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: in most "reaL" databases you almost never have autoincrement field
* [11:29] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: you have a counter which is sort of faux table
* [11:29] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: so you would alway say "select nextvar from mycounter"
* [11:30] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: and then insert that value into table, which has a plain int or long field
* [11:30] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: so when you migrate field in the table is static
* [11:30] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: ie no renumbering on migration
* [11:30] [[User:Slee Mayo|Slee Mayo]]: Showing rows 110220 - 110240 (110,241 total, Query took 0.3322 sec)
* [11:30] [[User:Slee Mayo|Slee Mayo]]: you can see my gap
* [11:30] [[User:Slee Mayo|Slee Mayo]]: ..from deleted records
* [11:31] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: and the countuer itself can be set by saying something like "update mycounter set nextval=(select max(myfield) from mytable)
* [11:31] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: ^ once you're done with migration
* [11:32] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oic latif, thanks for the explanation
* [11:32] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I guess you could just emulate that with a real table, bt that would be a pain
* [11:32] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Interesting that JH is adding a key-value facility into Opensim, alongside the RDBMS. It seems to be for colum extension without schema change, which could be powerful. https://lists.berlios.de/pipermail/opensim-dev/2009-September/007599.html
* [11:34] [[User:Slee Mayo|Slee Mayo]]: connection is untrusted, morgaine
* [11:34] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: bad certificate on that site ^^
* [11:34] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: key value db has been around since the dawn of time and still widely used in from of barkley db4 these days
* [11:34] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Just accept the certificate. Berlios doesn't want to add money to Verisign coffers, and good for them.
* [11:34] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: or remove s from https
* [11:34] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: verisign... ebil :)
* [11:34] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: there are other root-level cert signers :-)
* [11:35] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I thought so anyhow
* [11:35] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: all money leechers ;)
* [11:35] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i get a cert using my sl name lol
* [11:35] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: they're only interested in the fee, not so much in any actual checking
* [11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: lol nice
* [11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: well as long as it matches your whois record.... that's all they need!
* [11:36] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: godaddy basically checks that you have a vaild email
* [11:37] [[User:Slee Mayo|Slee Mayo]]: is there a way to get your transactions older than the past 30 days? i've never looked into it
* [11:37] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Oh they send a fax to verify company authenticity ... funny as hell (I was the regular yearly interface with Verisign for one company). It's classic "Security Theater" a la Schneier. Totally clueless staff too -- "What is telnet?", in answer to me explaining how to show that their server was bugged.
* [11:38] [[User:Slee Mayo|Slee Mayo]]: lovely
* [11:38] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i just tried for fun, registered streamgrid.net, and bought a certificate for https://secure.streamgrid.net/
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Slee: no, nothing older than 30 days
* [11:38] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: 0 checking
* [11:39] [[User:Slee Mayo|Slee Mayo]]: k
* [11:39] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: streamgrid.net is run by (unknown)
* [11:39] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: try ;)
* [11:39] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: whois streamgrid.net @whois.godaddy.com
* [11:40] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: so now i have https://secure.streamgrid.net/ with totally fake data, they check nothing
* [11:40] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: as long as you pay $20
* [11:40] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yup. Security theater.
* [11:41] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: the whole certificate business is a scam
* [11:41] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: you are ebil terrorist! NSA is going to hunt you down! :P
* [11:41] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha more like NASA
* [11:41] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: NSA is using Radegast, I'm on their good side ;)
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Heh, so, ok, twisted, do you mind trying to download the xml transactions again and see if they're still empty?
* [11:43] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Nobody is on the NSA's good side, because spooks see demons everywhere.
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I heard that it might be intermittent (which will make me sad)
* [11:43] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: which, do the webserver make direct connections to mysql?
* [11:44] [[User:Slee Mayo|Slee Mayo]]: twisted might be watching jerry springer
* [11:44] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: in some cases
* [11:45] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: seconf life web sites are very slow in general, dunno why
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: They're super-complicated is my best guess
* [11:46] [[User:Slee Mayo|Slee Mayo]]: wiki seems to be getting slower by the day
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: That makes less sense -- mediawiki should be easy to scale
* [11:46] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: they're grumpy at being webservers while the region simulators get all the fun
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha ha, also, php is slow as the dickens
* [11:47] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yeah there is this small site that does it well... erm what was its name... oh yeah, the ikipedia
* [11:47] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: php is not slow
* [11:47] [[User:Slee Mayo|Slee Mayo]]: mine is rather fast
* [11:47] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: still empty Which
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ok thanks twisted -- a good repro then!
* [11:47] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: facebook adds whole sl worth of users per week lol
* [11:48] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah facebook probably has more than 20 webservers though
* [11:48] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Oh I dunno, I think LL's implementation of IP over carrier pigeon is the fastest I've seen.
* [11:48] [[User:Slee Mayo|Slee Mayo]]: facebook is evil
* [11:48] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: wasn't jerry,... grandson was showing me his tree frog :p
* [11:48] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Cool!
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So yeah I'm passing along that url and we'll try and fix the problem, whatever it is
* [11:50] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: My experience from various companies though is that the web developers are generally NOT webserver techies, and tend to screw sites up. Dunno if LL is large enough for that ... but the websites sure are slow.
* [11:50] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: seems per user thoug, i have no issues fetching those xml dumps
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hopefully it will get faster now that the reskinning is done
* [11:51] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: And people have time to focus on thinigs other than getting that out
* [11:51] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: yeah, it surely has something to do with the content of the transaction logs
* [11:52] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: i only have $0 transactions for today ... 5 of them
* [11:52] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: It was OK until Javascript became universal. Then the world ended up with non-programmers doing programming, with a predictable result.
* [11:52] [[User:Slee Mayo|Slee Mayo]]: i think i've bought *maybe* 3-4 things on this account in the past 2 years
* [11:53] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: well web development has it's own unique challenges... spent 10 years working in the field of web apps
* [11:53] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It's possible that the xml download is somehow ignoring L$0 transactions
* [11:53] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I think Google is the only company that really understands that latency is really important
* [11:53] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: btw, if i include yesterday, then i get a valid list in download file
* [11:54] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: with regards to web sites
* [11:54] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Twisted: ah, interesting
* [11:54] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: but theres money transactions yesterday
* [11:54] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: huh... I can easily use in single shopping spree thousands... lucklily - or - unluckily - latex designers seemm to have achieved their current peak of designs ... so nothing to to buy anymore... :(
* [11:56] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: I'm amazed that the Google webbies (and they must have some) haven't destroyed Google as well --- the day that the main Google search box turns into a typical CMS or web portal, we'll know that Google has succumbed to the webbies as well.
* [11:56] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: it was pretty intresting to read that googles database have - or did have - single point of failure
* [11:56] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Imaze: link?
* [11:56] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: let me try to find...
* [11:56] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: it has todays 0's and yesterdays transaction 0 and not
* [11:56] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I kinda feel that a single point of failure isn't the worst design, as long as you know what it is and spend all your effort keeping it up
* [11:57] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Twisted: huh so it's not an error omitting L$0 transactions, it's something to do with the dates somehow
* [11:57] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: That is helpful to know
* [11:57] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: hmmm then i go back to only today and now its working
* [11:57] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: multiple hot standbys a la VRRP
* [11:58] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: the one that works is https://secure-web20.secondlife.com/my/account/download_transactions.php?date_start=2009-09-24&date_end=2009-09-24&type=xml&include_zero=yes
* [11:59] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: doesn't have uuid=yes
* [11:59] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: The problem with VRRP and related approaches is the same as the problem with backup --- you often discover that they don't work only when you need them.
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Twisted : agh, it was probably a cached bad result!
* [11:59] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: That's what makes non-SPoF approach and load sharing far more powerful --- you can see all the components working continuously, no need to cross fingers.
* [12:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: yeah, unless your upgrade technique is to hot failover to a replica with the new code
* [12:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, had a problem with your mail this morning?
* [12:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: unfallable google had trouble again ;)
* [12:01] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: [http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/08/12/google_file_system_part_deux/]
* [12:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Heh, gmail seems like google's weakest link
* [12:02] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: funny thing is, the actual mail works (via snmp and imap)
* [12:02] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: its their web interface that goes down
* [12:02] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: which is funny for google that one bit that keeps failing is the web
* [12:03] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: DBs are out of my area, but I think that was what our Oracle guys were doing, upgrade by hot failover. Can't comment on it really, except to say that DBAs are paid too much for doing too little :P
* [12:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Heh Oracle has certainly made a little pool of money for itself
* [12:03] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: btw, Which, i backed out of it and started over, its working ok for me.
* [12:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: actually a huge pool of money
* [12:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Thanks Twisted, you've confirmed that it's intermittent at least, we'll check it out
* [12:04] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: high availabilty is a whole science, i spent some time on it
* [12:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It may only hold for people hitting the site for the first time or something
* [12:04] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: there are some very elaborate systems
* [12:04] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Ugh, I was involved with Solaris HA .... still bear the scars.
* [12:04] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: and then there is stupud outdated legislation
* [12:04] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: An HA system that reduces the availability ...
* [12:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Ok folks I've gotta run do a review
* [12:05] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Cya Which, tc :-)
* [12:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Thanks so much for helping me out, really appreciate :-)
* [12:05] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: bye which
* [12:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: And great discsussion as always
* [12:05] [[User:Slee Mayo|Slee Mayo]]: np, cya

User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2009 Sep 17

2009-09-17T19:17:10Z

Which Linden: Created page with '* [11:03] Cel Edman: Saij what kind of blue bullet you are wearing?! * [11:03] Saijanai Kuhn: and in fact... * [11:03] [[User:Arthur F...'

* [11:03] [[User:Cel Edman|Cel Edman]]: Saij what kind of blue bullet you are wearing?!
* [11:03] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: and in fact...
* [11:03] [[User:Arthur Fermi|Arthur Fermi]]: gave you Fermi Sandbox will close without help.
* [11:03] [[User:Cel Edman|Cel Edman]]: .. talk about the bamboo
* [11:03] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hey Which
* [11:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: what up people!!!
* [11:03] [[User:Identity Euler|Identity Euler]]:
* [11:03] [[User:Identity Euler|Identity Euler]]: hi
* [11:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: nice unicode
* [11:04] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: its a nboleman's hat from the Heian era (check out t-shirt)
* [11:04] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Dahlia made it for me
* [11:04] [[User:Cel Edman|Cel Edman]]: kk
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so hey, quick poll for y'all
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: does anyone here care about the "Give Inventory" entries in the transaction log?
* [11:05] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: not really
* [11:06] [[User:Chilli Cao|Chilli Cao]]: yeah like twice a year.. when im trying to find something
* [11:06] [[User:Chilli Cao|Chilli Cao]]: say that i know someone gave me something that i dont know the name
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: they only seem to apply to inventory transferred directly
* [11:06] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: [http://senseis.xmp.net/?FujiwaraNoSai]
* [11:07] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: is there a different packet for that then for imed inventory?
* [11:07] [[User:Cel Edman|Cel Edman]]: 20:00 pm here ^^
* [11:07] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Cel, same here
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I mean it applies to inventory dragged from one inventory to another av, but not to inventory transferred from objects
* [11:07] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: ah OK
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so if you give inventory to someone who's offline it writes the transaction log first and then stores the IM
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so even if they decline the inventory or don't get it, the log remains
* [11:08] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, I personally never had use of it, i guess its not annoying
* [11:08] [[User:Chilli Cao|Chilli Cao]]: its proof that someone sent something
* [11:08] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: there's no confirmation log?
* [11:08] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: and "decline" really is only client side
* [11:08] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: for agent -> agent transfers
* [11:09] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: in reallity in means "tell the guy i declined, and move it to my trash"
* [11:09] [[User:Cel Edman|Cel Edman]]: ((wondering when there is a message cap. like recently I joined an art group that sends out a lot of messages about 5+ each day, and now i`m thinking to leave this group because it could cap out other messages.
* [11:10] [[User:Chilli Cao|Chilli Cao]]: notices?
* [11:10] [[User:Identity Euler|Identity Euler]]: you can turn off messages
* [11:10] [[User:Identity Euler|Identity Euler]]: notices*
* [11:10] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: and message cap is really evil since you lose all inventory offers from objects once you hit the msg cap
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah I guess when the inventory is offered initially it actually goes into your inventory somewhere, and the "decline" just deletes it
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I think anyhow
* [11:11] [[User:Cel Edman|Cel Edman]]: most of that goes to the dust bin
* [11:11] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: default is accept from agents, so if you don't accept and say logout it will still be in your inv
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The accept button is mostly a no-op :-)
* [11:11] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: for agent - agent
* [11:12] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: object - agent is a different story entirely
* [11:12] [[User:Chilli Cao|Chilli Cao]]: the "give inventory" in transaction log you asked.. you meant only the time where object llGivesInventory ? or any
* [11:13] [[User:Cel Edman|Cel Edman]]: Well to be honest, if people want to get back to you and it wont work on the first try, try again.
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: right, good distinction
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Chilili Cao: if you log into secondlife.com and go to "Transaction History" there are a bunch of logs there....some of them say "Give Inventory"
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: llGiveInventory doesn't generate these logs
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: only someone dragging stuff from their inventory onto you or your profile
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: lemme show you
* [11:15] [[User:Chilli Cao|Chilli Cao]]: i see.. personaly i would prefer them there.. just for sake of completeness.. if all inventory input should be logged
* [11:15] [[User:Chilli Cao|Chilli Cao]]: accepted your inventory offer.
* [11:15] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: why do you ask? want to kill those from the transaction log?
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah I agree that ideally they'd remain
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: But it's work to maintain features, and it might save us some work to kill this one
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yes, Latif, I'm debating killing them :-)
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so ok! that was useful to know
* [11:16] [[User:Cel Edman|Cel Edman]]: Which Linden> What is your current project you're working on to improve/make things easier now, If I would ask?
* [11:16] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i wouldn't lose sleep if they weren't there ;)
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'm obviously not going to make my decision right away but that was some valuable feedback, really appreciate it
* [11:17] [[User:Chilli Cao|Chilli Cao]]: i nowdays that keep chat.txt go there and search "which linden gave you"
* [11:17] [[User:Chilli Cao|Chilli Cao]]: to find an item that i know who gave it to me but not its name
* [11:17] [[User:Identity Euler|Identity Euler]]: yes there is no name of item right?
* [11:18] [[User:Chilli Cao|Chilli Cao]]: but thats 120mb textfile already
* [11:18] [[User:Chilli Cao|Chilli Cao]]: there is a name, i just dont remember it
* [11:18] [[User:Chilli Cao|Chilli Cao]]: maybe its japanese name
* [11:18] [[User:Identity Euler|Identity Euler]]: ok
* [11:18] [[User:Chilli Cao|Chilli Cao]]: i was looking for a watermelon piece the other day
* [11:18] [[User:Chilli Cao|Chilli Cao]]: SUIKA in japanese
* [11:18] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Cel: my current project is to move L$ onto its own database, separate from the main database
* [11:18] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: that will hopefully make both databases happier
* [11:19] [[User:Chilli Cao|Chilli Cao]]: but since i remembered who gave it to me.. i could go and search for that name in my transaction log
* [11:20] [[User:Chilli Cao|Chilli Cao]]: anyway its a rare case isnt it.. for the minority that are like me.. chat.txt saves the day
* [11:20] [[User:Cel Edman|Cel Edman]]: Well for me micro payments are the future for me, atm only paypall seems king in general, but they ask like 35 eurocents for every transaction. I guess maybe google goes next in combination with addwords. but SL micropayments is the best thing of sl.
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Totally. Which is why they should be fast and reliable. :-)
* [11:21] [[User:Chilli Cao|Chilli Cao]]: but when you right click pay for an item.. then vendor gives you inventory .. that should remain logged no?
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: That is not currently logged
* [11:22] [[User:Chilli Cao|Chilli Cao]]: oh
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The payment part of that is currently logged, but the inventory part is not
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Which is a bummer
* [11:22] [[User:Chilli Cao|Chilli Cao]]: how old of a transaction log can i get from my dashboard?
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: 30 days
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: maybe 31
* [11:22] [[User:Chilli Cao|Chilli Cao]]: i see
* [11:24] [[User:Cel Edman|Cel Edman]]: I try to make backups every month.
* [11:24] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yes, that one would be useful, a transaction log (separate from $L) that logs your object inventory offers and if they were accepted or not
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Does anyone want to resume looking at the source code to try and make progress on SVC-4182?
* [11:25] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: in 30min? i don't think it can be done in that time
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: darling brody's latest comment that this is a years-old bug is....I guess predictable
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: No I don't think we'll find the bug in 30 min
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: :-)
* [11:27] [[User:Cel Edman|Cel Edman]]: Which make a working link for SVC-4182.
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: [http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4182]
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: We need a bot that generates links
* [11:28] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: there is a jira helper object
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oooooo
* [11:28] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i'll ask dahlia, or moon for it
* [11:30] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: SVC-4182
* [11:30] [[User:JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4182|JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4182]]:
* [#SVC-4182] [[User:being deducted|being deducted]]: twice when paying in-world objects
* [11:30] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: :D
* [11:30] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: gave you JIRA-helper.
* [11:31] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: now it will link to jiras automatically hehe
* [11:31] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Thanks!
* [11:31] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: SVC-4444
* [11:31] [[User:JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4444|JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4444]]:
* [#SVC-4444] [[User:become fully|become fully]]: permissive when rezzed under certain conditions. - with Repro
* [11:31] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hehe
* [11:32] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: There we go, behind the couch
* [11:32] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hi all :-)
* [11:32] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hi Morg
* [11:33] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: which, so $L transacion cause significant db load?
* [11:33] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: MISC-2540
* [11:33] [[User:JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-2540|JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-2540]]:
* [#MISC-2540] [[User:Life would|Life would]]: rock harder with the mano cornuta hand gesture
* [11:33] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Busy with relatives. :-) What's today's topic?
* [11:33] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hehe
* [11:33] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: yes, significant write load
* [11:34] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: well, was hoping to continue looking at SVC-4182, but not wedded to that, since we're not likely to make a ton of progress
* [11:34] [[User:JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4182|JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4182]]:
* [#SVC-4182] [[User:being deducted|being deducted]]: twice when paying in-world objects
* [11:34] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Also this JIRA helper is the mutt's.
* [11:34] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: should be easy enough to remove from the main db, cannot imagine that its too interconnected
* [11:34] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: it only needs user db right
* [11:35] [[User:Cel Edman|Cel Edman]]: I guess, I better make the tools next. before the market is ready for it.
* [11:35] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: or do you write a copy in each log entry?
* [11:36] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: has customer on IM complaining about double payment right now
* [11:36] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: which if you want to lookup the log
* [11:37] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: yeah can I get a copy of the viewer log?
* [11:37] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: erm, i don't think i can convice her to do that
* [11:38] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Not really my area. Making things happen only once isn't exactly pushing the limits of technology :P
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Um....so should I talk to her with my Lindeny powes?
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: it sounds like you've not heard of the two-generals problem then
* [11:39] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Generals are bad, in general ;-)
* [11:39] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Generally I'd agree with that :-)
* [11:39] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hehe
* [11:39] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: 1925808336 and 1925808337 are transaction numbers
* [11:40] [[User:Chilli Cao|Chilli Cao]]: are they on wifi
* [11:41] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: ok checking
* [11:41] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: sent the customer name via IM which
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Thank you, will follow up
* [11:42] [[User:Cel Edman|Cel Edman]]: Anyway, a global micro-payment system around the world. could change the world I think and feel.
* [11:43] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: google is all over it
* [11:43] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: VWR-15549 is the one we found last week btw
* [11:43] [[User:JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-15549|JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-15549]]:
* [#VWR-15549] [[User:fast double-click|fast double-click]]: on an object with the "Pay Object" click action set, can result in multiple super-imposed payment floaters
* [11:43] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: but it would be funky if Linden Lab would allow web sites to charge in Lindens
* [11:44] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: according to the guy who advises Congress on virtual worlds, if L$ starts getting used to pay for real world services, it becomes taxable imediately instead of during cash out
* [11:44] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Aimee: awesome, thank you
* [11:45] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Sai: who's that?
* [11:45] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: :)
* [11:45] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: can't remmeber his name. He spoke atMetanomics last year I think
* [11:45] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: big fan of SL and WoW
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh ok. I wonder if that's actually the case
* [11:48] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Wasn't this issue essentially solved by the work on CHTTP? Charging for a given sale should be an idempotent operation.
* [11:48] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: yes, apparently the viewer is sending two unique requests
* [11:49] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It's probably a UI problem
* [11:49] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: [http://thegridlive.com/2007/10/09/no-new-taxes-on-virtual-world-earningsyet/]
* [11:49] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Entropia became a bank
* [11:51] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: But if the viewer is sending two unique requests to buy the same item, the second one should fail.
* [11:51] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hey!
* [11:51] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: no lol, people buy more that one item all the time
* [11:51] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: that would be the case if the semantics of the transaction were "buy this object" but in this case it's "pay this vendor and see what happens"
* [11:51] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: No no Latif, the SAME item, not multiple items of the same kind
* [11:51] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: besides, that would be hack to mask a real problem
* [11:52] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Agreed that if we changed the semantics so that the viewer was requesting to buy a *specific* object the problem would be solved
* [11:52] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but since the semantics are of buying a *copy* of an object it's not so easy
* [11:52] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Morgaine, paying strippers small amounts with great frequency is a common case :P
* [11:52] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: don't break those tipjars :P
* [11:53] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yes, good example Latif
* [11:53] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: That's interesting, a semantic difference between buying an item and paying for a sevice.
* [11:53] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: At some point it gets irreducible: the problem becomes "pay as many times as the user wanted to pay, regardless of what their fingers did"
* [11:54] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: there are some dragons in that floater, we have seen it the last time
* [11:54] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I think you have to narrow it down to payment for a unique object, otherwise it's a recipe for accounts being drained when things go wrong.
* [11:55] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: I think you're right in a sense, but it's annoying to implement
* [11:55] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Eg. a "tip" could be payment for a reciept for services covering a certain span of time.
* [11:55] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: And the unique items is the receipt
* [11:55] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Because then the process of "tipping" someone becomes a process of "ask recipient to generate unique 'object', buy it, repeat"
* [11:56] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah we're in agreement about how it would work
* [11:56] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: What if you accidentally generate two receipts though????
* [11:56] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: O.O
* [11:57] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It's turtles all the way down
* [11:57] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: There's no mouse or keybounce server-side, luckily :-)
* [11:58] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: This is true. But it's not clear this problem is caused by keybounce
* [11:58] [[User:Freemason Magic|Freemason Magic]]: i have to go thanks for the information
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I mean, technically the UI elements should disable themselves upon receiving the click event, so UI elements should not ever suffer from multi-clocks
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: *clicks
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Perhaps that guarantee is being violated here, which would be a problem
* [12:00] [[User:Chilli Cao|Chilli Cao]]: its very easy to reproduce
* [12:00] [[User:Chilli Cao|Chilli Cao]]: it doesnt have to be a fast click as i saw
* [12:00] [[User:Chilli Cao|Chilli Cao]]: a floater per click
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yes, clearly the pie menu violates the guarantee
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I guess it's not a stretch to think that the other UI elements might do so as well
* [12:02] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I don't know how that code is structured, but there are certainly a lot of threads knocking around, and from my work in concurrency that's a recipe for total disaster and mayhem if more than one thread is involved in any of this current issue. Is there more than one involved here?
* [12:03] [[User:Chilli Cao|Chilli Cao]]: a second click should bring forward the floater thats already opened like when its set to "buy object" when clicked
* [12:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: I think the UI is still single-threaded
* [12:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Chilli: agreed
* [12:03] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: And is that single thread the same thread as the networking?
* [12:03] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: the grand viewer loop
* [12:03] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: basically everything is in it
* [12:04] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: (which is more or less standard "game" design pattern)
* [12:04] [[User:Panel 3|Panel 3]]: Freeze of 0.595888s detected (Mono)
* [12:04] [[User:Panel 3|Panel 3]]: Freeze of 0.584383s detected (LSO)
* [12:04] [[User:Panel 3|Panel 3]]: Freeze of 0.557253s detected (LSO)
* [12:04] [[User:Panel 3|Panel 3]]: Freeze of 0.521248s detected (Mono)
* [12:04] [[User:Panel 3|Panel 3]]: Freeze of 0.544696s detected (Mono)
* [12:04] [[User:Panel 3|Panel 3]]: Freeze of 0.501786s detected (LSO)
* [12:04] [[User:Panel 3|Panel 3]]: Freeze of 0.605135s detected (Mono)
* [12:04] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: freezy time
* [12:04] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Which: [http://www.slideshare.net/WeAreRemedy/100807-congress-and-the-metaverse-metanomics-transcript]
* [12:05] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I've turned it off again, but those have been happening throughout
* [12:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: What's that freeze thing about? Is it an LSL script that just checks for hiccups in the LSL engine?
* [12:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Cool thanks Sai
* [12:06] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: its not only the lsl engine
* [12:06] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: wholse sim freezes up
* [12:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It's the sim?
* [12:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Bah
* [12:06] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: since 1.26 or so
* [12:06] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i have observed freezes of up to 60s
* [12:06] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Just tries to get max-rate events, and reports any long intervals. Happens in LSO and Mono continually.
* [12:06] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yeah, as Latif says
* [12:06] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: [http://economicsofvirtualworlds.blogspot.com/2007/05/virtual-money-real-pizza.html] also from his blog
* [12:07] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: it's the biggest source of spoiling the experience for users rightnow
* [12:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hm, I presume that there's some d00dz working on it
* [12:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Is there a PJIRA I can investigate?
* [12:08] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: could be Which did some nasy blocking call to the back end ;)
* [12:08] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: SVC-4196
* [12:08] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: there are tons of jiras
* [12:09] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: that's one of them with the nice graphs
* [12:09] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: jira helper died on you? ;)
* [12:09] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: [http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4196]
* [12:09] [[User:JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4196|JIRA-helper: http//jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4196]]:
* [#SVC-4196] [[User:entering sim|entering sim]]: or rezzing object causes sim to freeze for up to 30 seconds - everything stops for everybody there
* [12:09] [[User:JIRA-helper: [#SVC-4196|JIRA-helper: [#SVC-4196]]:
* [12:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: dude JIRA helper
* [12:09] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Don't think anyone's investigating it. At least no Linden with an OH knows of anyone investigating it.
* [12:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: lol
* [12:09] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: ah its just jira being slow to respond
* [12:10] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Andrew said they will assign a dev to look into it "soon" ;)
* [12:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh that's right I saw this in a previous OH
* [12:10] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: I'm heading over for this: [http://dusanwriter.com/] session on new mesh imports [http://slurl.com/secondlife/Metanomics%20II/168/199/25]
* [12:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Awesome folks, we should wrap up here
* [12:10] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: 30-60s freezes are bad ;)
* [12:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: agreed
* [12:10] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: And we can't get Babbage's verdict on it, as he's been unavailable for 2+ weeks at his OH
* [12:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Thanks so much for the interesting discussion
* [12:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'll see 'yall next week!
* [12:11] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: take care which
* [12:11] [[User:Chilli Cao|Chilli Cao]]: thank you too Which!
* [12:11] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Cheers Which, cya next time
* [12:11] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: bye Which :)
* [12:11] [[User:Identity Euler|Identity Euler]]: see you
* [12:11] [[User:Chilli Cao|Chilli Cao]]: that'd be interesting saijanai

User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2009 Sep 10

2009-09-10T19:12:13Z

Which Linden: Created page with '* [11:01] Saijanai Kuhn: hey Which, yer doomed * [11:02] Which Linden: doooooooooomed or just doomed? * [11:02] [[User:Morgaine Din...'

* [11:01] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: hey Which, yer doomed
* [11:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: doooooooooomed or just doomed?
* [11:02] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: waters the flower pot
* [11:02] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: heya Which
* [11:02] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hiya Which :-)
* [11:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: good morning!
* [11:02] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: waters the plant.
* [11:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: "watering the plant" is the new "kissing the ring" :-P
* [11:03] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
* [11:03] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: Depends on how one waters the plant. :-D
* [11:03] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Don Which de Lindedn :P
* [11:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so hey, I'd like to try something today if you all are up for it
* [11:03] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which, we've been discussing for a couple of hours in Groupies a scheme for preserving creator metadata and object authenticity in XML dumps of objects made by viewers. This is named the "Nyx Object Authenticity proposal".
* [11:03] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: wassup?
* [11:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: how would you feel about collaboratively debugging SVC-4182, since it's a viewer issue?
* [11:04] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Listens to WHich's experiment proposal
* [11:04] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Sure, what's on your mind Which?
* [11:04] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: "Does it look like a tiny robot?" ... yes ... "then it's authentic"
* [11:04] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: surl please.
* [11:04] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: url that is
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: copy and paste ain't workin for me for some reason
* [11:05] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: [http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4182]
* [11:05] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Ta Aimee :-)
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: thanks!
* [11:05] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: :)
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: and by debug I don't mean actually debug, because we don't have a repro
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but just look through the source and identify possible reasons that the duplicates might be happening
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: sorry if you were hoping to continue discussing the licensing thing; I know it's rare that I have a topic of my own :-)
* [11:06] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: No no, go with yours please :-))))
* [11:07] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: First thing I do is grep the source to find otu there the logging info is comming from and backtrance from there on.
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yes, that's a good start
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: should we do our source spelunking on snowglobe? seems likely to also contain whatever bug it is
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: https://svn.secondlife.com/svn/linden/projects/2009/snowglobe/trunk
* [11:08] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: I am familar with the pie menu and mouse hover as they both get pay/buy info. I was playing with beacons last month.
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oh now paste works
* [11:09] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: There does seem to be a random function associated with paste, I've noticed on Linux. Sometimes it just won't, no matter what you do with the clipboard.
* [11:10] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: In the viewer I mean.
* [11:10] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: grabs Snowglobe 1.2.0 source.
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so the debug message that's printed twice is printed from here: [http://svn.secondlife.com/trac/linden/browser/projects/2009/snowglobe/trunk/indra/newview/llviewermessage.cpp#L262]
* [11:12] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so we know that the problem is that give_money is being called twice
* [11:12] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: case CLICK_ACTION_PAY:
* handle_give_money_dialog();
* [11:13] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: this is reported only when paying objects?
* [11:13] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: maybe the message isn't ack'd in time and its resent and this isn't called twice
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: no it's reported when paying agents too
* [11:13] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: ?
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: well I think so; the give_money function works with both
* [11:14] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: llviewermenu.cpp handle that function.
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Twisted: I don't think it's related to the message system directly, but yeah, maybe something that calls give_money gets two packets and does two actions
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: grepping through the source I see lots of function pointers
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: [http://svn.secondlife.com/trac/linden/browser/projects/2009/snowglobe/trunk/indra/newview/llviewermenu.cpp#L5016]
* [11:15] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: llviewermenu is huge.
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: that's handle_give_money_dialog, and it wraps up a pointer to complete_give_money
* [11:15] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: it's unlikely message system since each packet has a serial and repeated serial numbers are discarded
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: good point
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so maybe it's a UI race condition?
* [11:15] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: and the log indicates function called twice
* [11:16] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yeah, my guess is ui problem
* [11:16] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i'd focus on fast pay floater
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I think that floater is LLFloaterPay
* [11:17] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: kind of difficult to debug stuff on no build/no script land
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oh...want me to turn those on?
* [11:17] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: could you please
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: done
* [11:17] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: could give Gfoupies building rights
* [11:17] [[User:Object: Hello,|Object: Hello,]]: Avatar!
* [11:17] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: I foudn the function "llgivemoney.cpp:void LLFloaterPay::payViaObject(money_callback callback, const LLUUID& object_id)
* [11:18] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: yeah, there's payDirectly and payViaObject I see
* [11:18] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: payDirectly is to an avatar, and pay viaobject is to object.
* [11:19] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: llviwermenu is where it desides what funciton to use.
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so it looks like the way those work is.... they get called, stick up their floater UI, and call their callback when the user decides what to do with the UI
* [11:19] [[User:Object: Hello,|Object: Hello,]]: Avatar!
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: and the callback is give_money, so if somehow the UI was screwing up such that it called teh callback twice.... boom
* [11:20] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: llviewermenu complete_give_money is where it desides what funciton to use, direct or objectpay.
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: here's the definition for LLFloaterPay: [http://svn.secondlife.com/trac/linden/browser/projects/2009/snowglobe/trunk/indra/newview/llgivemoney.cpp]
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so from the bug reports we only know the bug happens when paying via object
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so let's focus on that code path
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: (let me know if I'm reading that wrong)
* [11:22] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i had that reported by my customers as well
* [11:23] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: and i use money() event in my vendors scripts
* [11:24] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: It may be a hack, but would adding code to prevent another money event withen xx time help stop all the double pay stuff?
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yes but it would actually probably be harder to implement than finding and fixing the bug :-)
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: implement correctly that is
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so the other clue we have is that the *second* give_money call somehow fails to send a description to the simulator
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: and presumably that's how the money() event doesn't get called a second time
* [11:25] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Highlighting multiple payments within a short time window in the log is worth doing though, whether or not bug is fixed. It could recur.
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: surely
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: we should get processes in place to check on that
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: unfortunately there is a lot of legit traffic that would show up as noise; zyngo comes to mind
* [11:27] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, are you sure money() does not get called twice?
* [11:27] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: seem to be a lot of games whose basic mechanic involves ping-ponging 1 L$ back and forth between player and game
* [11:27] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: What's the timestamp granularity? Are these doubles at the SAME time, or just very close together?
* [11:27] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: no, I just assume so
* [11:27] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: we only have second granularity
* [11:27] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hmmm
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: well actually I can get better than that, lemme do that for ya
* [11:28] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, i recall seeing some transactions in my store, getting payed twice for a copy item, and item gets deliver twice and me wondering why the heck are they buying it twice when is copiable
* [11:28] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Latif: altruism :P
* [11:28] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hehe
* [11:29] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: really, that's interesting
* [11:29] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Might not be the same bug, though
* [11:30] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: If you notice that again, look at the logs and if the second transaction has no description, then that's da bug
* [11:31] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: trying to trick fast pay with double clicks and what no
* [11:32] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oh god I'm sure there's some recipe out there for "free lindens if you input this code"
* [11:32] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Shhhhhh
* [11:32] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: oooooh, weird
* [11:34] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ugh ok we don't have finer time resolution
* [11:34] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Eeek
* [11:35] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: notice anything funny in this screenshot?!
* [11:35] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: beside the fact it's not rezzing properly for me :S
* [11:35] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: texture downloading is slow as all hell?
* [11:35] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Not rezzed yet
* [11:35] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha ha
* [11:36] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: that's the result of clicking rapidly on the pay button
* [11:36] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: I've been left with a Pay floater, with just a cancel button
* [11:37] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh I see it now, right above the prim
* [11:37] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: so definitely something going awry with the UI
* [11:37] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: even if that's not the particular bug we're looking for
* [11:37] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: yeah
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: nice find!
* [11:38] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Aimee, at firt I thought you stole my screen lol
* [11:38] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: bet I can't replicate it now though lol
* [11:38] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: scary same layout lol
* [11:38] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: lol
* [11:38] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: 2-3 minutes at max bandwidth and still not rezzed
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: great minds think alike ... :-)
* [11:38] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: same perspective focusing on a cube
* [11:39] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: maybe the floater should close before it send the money?
* [11:39] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: in void LLFloaterPay::onGive(void* data)
* [11:39] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: hrm, think the screenshot got slammed to 512x256 because of my aspect ratio
* [11:39] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: or disable itself anyway
* [11:40] [[User:Ardy Lay|Ardy Lay]]: It's loaded, just still blurry and yeah, 512x256.
* [11:40] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: should certainly disable all it's UI the moment anything in that window is committed I'd say
* [11:40] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: well if this has started appearaing since "the bestt viewer ever" aka 1.23 has been released, and it seems that it has, i'd go diffing changes in the related code
* [11:40] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: It must be downloading all of Aimee's inventory .... still at max bandwidth :P
* [11:40] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: yeah, could run back through the commits to llgivemoney.cpp
* [11:40] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah maybe; so LLFloaterPay::give is the one that fills in the description field
* [11:40] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I reckong this 1.2.0 Snowglobe has problems.
* [11:41] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: 468 LLSelectNode* node = mObjectSelection->getFirstRootNode();
* 469 std::string object_name;
* 470 if (node)
* 471 {
* 472 object_name = node->mName;
* 473 }
* [11:41] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so.... if object_name is empty, or it goes through some other branch, then the description would be empty
* [11:41] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: AH!
* [11:41] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so I think it's reasonable to say that give() is being called twice as well
* [11:41] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: think I know what may be happening
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: do tell
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: :-)
* [11:42] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: take your prim, click it like buggery
* [11:42] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: get multiple floaterpays on top of each other
* [11:43] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: click the first, it works and goes away
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: starts a band called "click it like buggery"
* [11:43] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: ah, i have all may vendors set like this cube
* [11:43] [[User:Ardy Lay|Ardy Lay]]: Ah... twitchy gamers finding bugs?
* [11:43] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: but there's an identical one hiding behind it, so it looks like your click didn't work
* [11:43] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: its pay on click
* [11:43] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: so you click again
* [11:43] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Oh joy, it's the new translator stuff that's filling the link ---> 2009-09-10T18:42:07Z INFO: getSize: Variable Language not in message ChatFromSimulator block ChatData (zillions of them)
* [11:43] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: so double clicl on object + double click on the pay button will do the trick
* [11:43] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: on the second window
* [11:44] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Relogging to Techwolf's ebuild.
* [11:44] [[User:Ardy Lay|Ardy Lay]]: Somepeople doubleclick on everything. I see this walking through offices.
* [11:44] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i got the same log lol
* [11:45] [[User:Tiny Blue|Tiny Blue]]: Kitty Head: All Go
* [11:45] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: if I click three times on the object rapidly on the object, I get the proper floaterpay, with one behind it with just a cancel button
* [11:45] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yeah i can repro that
* [11:45] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: ah, sometimes just a cancel button, sometimes two full floaterpays with all their buttons
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hm....that sounds pretty broken
* [11:46] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: yuck lol
* [11:46] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: definitely should only be pulling up one floaterpay for one object at a time
* [11:47] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: maybe even just one floaterpay at a time full-stop
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah....perhaps
* [11:47] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: should be a singleton basically
* [11:47] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: when i rapidly click on my object, i get about 3 out of 10 without buttons
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I could see the use case for having multiples for different objects
* [11:47] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: hmm, unless you want to shop and play zyngo at the same time I guess
* [11:48] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: yeah, one per object then
* [11:48] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hates artificial limitations like that
* [11:48] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: heh
* [11:49] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: or at least don't make them pop up in the same place
* [11:49] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: tile them or something
* [11:49] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: I wonder if this could be a user error, double clicking on the object, then double clicking on the pay button, which would do what this bug describes nicely
* [11:49] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: the actual problem (besides the broken ones missing their buttons) is that they appear to the user as being one
* [11:49] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: could you explain how it would lead to the blank second description? that's still fuzzy for me
* [11:50] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: hmm
* [11:50] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, I would ask the Original Poster of that bug if his vendor's default action is set to pay
* [11:50] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: (or buy)
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: what would that tell us?
* [11:50] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: well there's clearly stuff going missing somewhere in that some of them are coming up with just a cancel button
* [11:51] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: is ignorant of how vendors work
* [11:51] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: reads the scrollback
* [11:51] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: I do double clicks ALL the time due to SL not reacting to my first one.
* [11:51] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, if the answer is "No" it would eliminate my theory of double click user error
* [11:52] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ah ok latif, that makes sense
* [11:52] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: right click, buy. Can't buy withen a second or two, cancell and try just clicking on the object. If not, try again and again untill you CAN buy the object.
* [11:53] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I think I see the chain now -- user double-clicks, kicks off two pay dialogs, each of which requests the object info; only one of them wins the race to set _PREHASH_PayPriceReply handler, and thus only one of them has a description
* [11:54] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, rez that one and click twice on it, then double click $L1 on the dialog
* [11:54] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but these are happening really close to each other in the logs; not quite simultaneously but pretty sub-secon
* [11:54] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: gave you Fake vendor.
* [11:54] [[User:Fake vendor|Fake vendor]]: Got 1
* [11:54] [[User:Fake vendor|Fake vendor]]: Got 1
* [11:55] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hm I got the dialog with only a cancel button
* [11:55] [[User:Fake vendor|Fake vendor]]: Got 1
* [11:55] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: no $L1?
* [11:55] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: twitchy finger or bouncy mouse button
* [11:55] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I got two dialogs, one with a 1L$ button and one with only a cancel
* [11:55] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol there you go 1 bug
* [11:56] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so actually that's consistent with what I just said, but doesn't explain how we get dupes
* [11:56] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i get two dialogs with $1L exactly on top of one another, so double click on $1L gives me two transactions within a few ms
* [11:56] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: does anyone here know if Zyngo machines are default-action-pay?
* [11:57] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: none of them are
* [11:57] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: since they need touch
* [11:57] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: hah my lag must be worse I didn't get two legit pay dialgos, let me keep trying
* [11:57] [[User:Fake vendor|Fake vendor]]: Got 1
* [11:57] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: vendors like mine don't need touch event so i set them to pay
* [11:57] [[User:Fake vendor|Fake vendor]]: Got 1
* [11:57] [[User:Fake vendor|Fake vendor]]: Got 1
* [11:57] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oh there we go
* [11:57] [[User:Fake vendor|Fake vendor]]: Got 1
* [11:57] [[User:Fake vendor|Fake vendor]]: Got 1
* [11:58] [[User:Fake vendor|Fake vendor]]: Got 1
* [11:58] [[User:Fake vendor|Fake vendor]]: Got 1
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hm, so latif that seems to suggest that the dupe bug is not caused by this dialog bug given what we know so far
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: the dupe bug is definitely happening to zyngo machines
* [11:59] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: ah ok
* [11:59] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: ah right
* [12:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: (we should definitely file a pjira bug on these dialogs though if one doesn't exist already)
* [12:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: maybe double-clicks on the pay pie menu item?
* [12:01] [[User:Fake vendor|Fake vendor]]: Got 1
* [12:01] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: possible solution would be to have a flag in viewer object if the mClickAction is triggered and cleared when done, would stop dupes on any click action event
* [12:01] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: hmm, wonder if the pie will take a double click if you're quick
* [12:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: or have low framerate.... :-)
* [12:01] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: yeah
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: doesn't seem to work for me
* [12:02] [[User:Tiny Blue|Tiny Blue]]: Kitty Head: All Go
* [12:02] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: hmm, need a way to artificially drag the frame rate down lol
* [12:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: actually mine is pretty terrible right now
* [12:03] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: don't have a turbo button on the front of computers these days :(
* [12:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: all your beauty is straining my video card
* [12:03] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: LOL
* [12:03] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: what do you class as terrible?
* [12:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: 4-5
* [12:04] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: graphics to Ultra and 512m at a buzy help island will kill your frame rate.
* [12:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oddly if I increase window size it gets better
* [12:04] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: yeah I'm around 7 or 8
* [12:04] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i'm at 17 here
* [12:04] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: draw distance 128
* [12:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so yeah I'm having no luck with double clicks on the pie menu, shouldn't rule it out though
* [12:05] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: all settings maxed out and 1920x1200 rers, I'm getting about 6-7
* [12:06] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: pie does sone weird stuff in 1.23, i would not rule it out either
* [12:06] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: ah, I just got the "cancel button only" version double clicking on the pie menu
* [12:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: orly! nice work
* [12:06] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: yep! just got the double fully filled out version
* [12:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but did you second click go through and click the objet?
* [12:07] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: hmm, good point
* [12:07] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: turned it back to touch now, so we shall see
* [12:07] [[User:Object: Touched.|Object: Touched.]]:
* [12:07] [[User:Object: Touched.|Object: Touched.]]:
* [12:07] [[User:Object: Touched.|Object: Touched.]]:
* [12:08] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: hmm, yeah, looks like that may have been it
* [12:08] [[User:Object: Touched.|Object: Touched.]]:
* [12:08] [[User:John13 Tigerfish|John13 Tigerfish]]: Hey!
* [12:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: lots a touching going ont :-)
* [12:08] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: lol
* [12:08] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: finding a repro case is always the most efficient approach, staring at code alone requires extraordinary skill ;)
* [12:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so hey -- I should run, but this has been fantastic
* [12:09] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: plus trying to break stuff is fun :P
* [12:09] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: ok that's weird, I'm getting tootips from Safari which is behind my SL window lol
* [12:09] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: take care which
* [12:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: does someone want to file a bug for the dialog thing we found?
* [12:09] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: bye Which :)
* [12:09] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: yep
* [12:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Thanks aimee :-)
* [12:09] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I was at 20 FPS on 1.2.0 at 1920x1200 on 9800, but only 10 FPS on Tech's ebuild currently. From fast timers, it's alpha sorting that' changed.
* [12:10] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Cyu Which, tc :-)
* [12:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Thanks again!

User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2009 Sep 3

2009-09-03T19:16:08Z

Which Linden: Created page with '* [11:03] Latif Khalifa: hey which * [11:03] Which Linden: good morning! * [11:04] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya ...'

* [11:03] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hey which
* [11:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: good morning!
* [11:04] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hiya Which!
* [11:04] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Um, where ...
* [11:04] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: Hello which
* [11:04] [[User:Papa Popinjay|Papa Popinjay]]: Hi Which
* [11:04] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: good question
* [11:04] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: what the ...
* [11:04] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: Your RenderAvatarInvisible is on
* [11:04] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: lol
* [11:04] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: he lost his pot
* [11:04] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
* [11:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: mine is?
* [11:04] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: yse
* [11:04] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Must have been in some kind of god stealth mode, hehe
* [11:04] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: you're currently "Where Linden"
* [11:05] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: wha?
* [11:05] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: Oh, your halftorus just rezzed
* [11:05] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: there we go :)
* [11:05] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: forgot to wear his pants :P
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: weird ... I've actually been walking around like that for a while -- must have lost some prims in teleport
* [11:06] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Ah, welcome Which's avatar. Your agent got here some minutes ago :P
* [11:06] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: Having asset server issues again, eh?
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I just assumed it was my viewer glitching
* [11:06] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: indicent exposure :P
* [11:06] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Well we know there's something odd been going on with textures recently
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: one of the bummers of this avatar is that the invisiprims covering my humaniform av prevent me from easily werading stuff
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: *wearing stuff
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: will actually be quite looking forward to true invisible avatars
* [11:07] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yeah
* [11:07] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: so talk to Nyx about transparent textures for your avi
* [11:08] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: Which: It's already supported with RenderAvatarInvisible :P
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: actually I feel like the design would be better if instead of 'hiding' the human avatar, you simply had the option to have your 'base' be a prim
* [11:08] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: It just doesn't stick, unfortunately
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Economic: eh? Don't you need a newer viewer too?
* [11:08] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yes you do
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hasn't been following this topic very well
* [11:08] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: FlexLife Viewer 1.23.4 (420) Aug 4 2009 14:56:55 (FlexLife Viewer)
* [11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: and what do you mean it doesn't stick?
* [11:09] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: It's a debug setting which doesn't persist yet
* [11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oic
* [11:09] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: 1.23 shows invisi textures fine, has no way of setting them though
* [11:09] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: It does work though, those with newer viewers should not be seeing my LL avatar right now
* [11:10] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: if viewer 2.0 wasn't developed behind the closed doors,we'd know if the feature is implemented there
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: For some reason I thought it would allow alpha textures on the base skin so you could be 50% transparent if you wanted
* [11:10] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, no
* [11:10] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: alpha masks only
* [11:10] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: so fully trasnparent bits or fully opaque ones
* [11:10] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Economic: can you hop out of your prims later so we can test that?
* [11:10] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Latif, but still an improvement IMHO
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh yeah, don't see much
* [11:10] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Wow! Invisibleto me!
* [11:11] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: :3
* [11:11] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: No invisiprims
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: there is a tiny patch of ... something floating there
* [11:11] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Oh, there's a little black core though
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: don't tell me that's your hair
* [11:11] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: I unno
* [11:11] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: probably
* [11:12] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: I look completely invisible on my viewer though.
* [11:12] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: yeah, it's your hair
* [11:12] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: ANyway
* [11:12] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha ha, classic
* [11:12] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: anyway, alpha masks for wearables are coming soon :D
* [11:12] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: 'System Infrastructure?
* [11:12] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: if you hit show transparent you can see it's inside your head
* [11:12] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yes it's hair, highlight transparent, roughly in right place
* [11:13] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: If I do highlight transparent, it rurns off the invisibility completely
* [11:13] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: yeah
* [11:13] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: it does, but the black bit is where your head appears when you do that
* [11:13] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yes I know, but it lets you see where that black texture is, roughly
* [11:13] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, what's up with the asset server these days?
* [11:14] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: It's running off an old IBM mainframe with tape reels
* [11:14] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: and punchcards
* [11:14] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: woah, they upgraded it?
* [11:14] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
* [11:14] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Economic, can we upload the right av textures for that?
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I think it just has periodic bouts of bad weather
* [11:14] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i mean concurrency is down... wouldn't expect central infrastructure to become more unstable
* [11:15] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Morgaine, no you can't, no with unmodified viewer
* [11:15] [[User:Papa Popinjay|Papa Popinjay]]: Snowglobe has renderavatarinvisible
* [11:15] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: Morgaine: when the viewer gets RenderAvatarInvisible TRUE in Debug Settings, it automatically bakes transparent textures
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah, based on no internal information whatsoever, I'd guess that the latest outage was more hardware-lifetime related than overload
* [11:15] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Cool
* [11:16] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: moral of that story was "Single Points of Failure Are Bad" :P
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Totally.... it's not supposed to be a single point of failure
* [11:16] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: LL seems to have many Single Points of Failure
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It's supposed to be redundant and distributed and all that .... but I don't really work on that stuff so I don't really know how it actually is :-)
* [11:17] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: trouble is sometimes you can see the single points till they happen
* [11:17] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: One database server goes down and the four Lindens of the Apocalypse are running around tripping over cords
* [11:17] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: At least that SPoF is now identified. Hopefully. And eliminated.
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: But I think residents blame the asset server for more problems than it actually deserves, as well
* [11:18] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: The asset server does appear in the status page more often than most.
* [11:18] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: we had some real asset server outages past week
* [11:18] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: can't be helped, since there's no visibility of the inner architecture.
* [11:18] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: ie. stuff refuses to rez, cannot open landmarks, etc etc
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yes, definitely some real ones recently, and agreed that it's perfectly reasonable to have a scapegoat when there's no further information
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: But we are pretty open about our architecture, we've had sessions about how many dataaservers run on each simhost, what they talk to and stuff
* [11:19] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: brb coke and ridding self ofchewing puppy
* [11:19] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Been a while since that interview in which you gave numbers though.
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: the what interview?
* [11:20] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Ummmmm
* [11:20] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: (online)
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: You mean office hours?
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I think we talked about them when I wa guest-hosting for Zero one time way back in Da Day
* [11:21] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: No idea with whom the interview was actually, but it mentioned the Isilon NAS hardware --- that immediately rang a bell as I know Isilons.
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: And recently I talked about all the different architectures for our 4 different forms of chat
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh so not me personally, I see
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: heh well isilon did a press release about it : [http://www.isilon.com/company/?sub=press&page=press&release=114]
* [11:23] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: and FJ talks about it here: https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/features/blog/2009/01/12/second-life-grid-update-from-fj-linden
* [11:23] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: So, when is the group chat going to be at least worked on? Larger group chats are still failing
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It's being worked on right now; currently people are analyzing stats that the metrics have given us
* [11:24] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Ah, interesting. Didn't see that Which. I'm pretty sure mine was an interview, a host + a Linden.
* [11:24] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: Still analyzing stats? Wtf.
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Stats were only added in 1.27.1
* [11:24] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: It's been more than a month since the new stats-giving code was introduced
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yep .... stuff takes a long time here.
* [11:25] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yeah i noticed that lol
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I think one of the conclusions was that most problems are at the delivery end; the message reaches the chat server but doesn't make it to the sim where the recipient is
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: But I don't know much more than that
* [11:26] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i have submitted simple couple of lines patches to fix some annoying viewer ui bugs past december that are still in the pipeline ;)
* [11:26] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Oh cool, didn't see 2nd link either. Mine mentioned Isilons AND mentioned current size of database.
* [11:27] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Ooh the current size of teh database! how big was it?
* [11:27] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: moves hands far apart " this big! "
* [11:27] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: db dump fits nicely on a 300gb drive
* [11:27] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: asset storage was ~400TB last time someone mentioned it
* [11:28] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Think it was either 130TB or 230TB, seems to ring a bell. But I'm totally going from vague recollection. Hmmm, wish I could grep my brain.
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Probably impossible to measure now that parts are getting pushed to S3
* [11:28] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: that's assets, you desktop could run mysql db size they have ;)
* [11:29] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: Braingrep, coming to Brainlinux Summer 2029
* [11:29] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Ah well there you go, if it's 400TB now then that interview was ages ago
* [11:29] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hehe
* [11:29] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Each Linden gets an external hard drive containing the entire contents of the database :-)
* [11:30] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: and i bet significat % of those tb are internal things like simstates
* [11:30] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hehe
* [11:31] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Eeek. A new website
* [11:32] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: That's an interesting hypothesis Latif, and probably correct (though I don't know)
* [11:32] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: since the stuff on sims is pretty massive, and simstates just copy that data over and over again
* [11:33] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Regular assets can be referenced many times without copying
* [11:33] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: 30k sims dumping state to asset servers avery 10-15 minutes, adds up
* [11:34] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hopefully we have a good scheme for retiring old ones
* [11:34] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: I imagine terrain would be a load, too
* [11:34] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: How high-rez is terrain? Probably at most a few megs
* [11:34] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: I dunno, I can't get raws to display on GIMP :/
* [11:34] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: LOL @ new SL website, you give your login details, it outputs an error page, and yet you're logged in. <sigh>
* [11:34] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: Morgaine
* [11:34] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: Speaking of website, it would be nice if theXML transaction history was a little more accessible to external programs, like transaction verifiers. Currently have to run 3 CURL transactions, fake an SL login, and fakes a browser session in order to check if a transaction went through
* [11:35] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: saw a 47 TB drive design for under $8k
* [11:35] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: File a PJIRA! I'm pretty sure that there are lots of dudes assigned to fix bugs caused by the new release
* [11:35] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Sai: I saw that too, it was pretty awesome
* [11:35] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The software is clearly the important bit about those though
* [11:36] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: remembers The Sider with 10MB for $1k
* [11:36] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: lol
* [11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Economic: how could it be better? Seems that most of the effort is in authenticating yourself.
* [11:36] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: I had a 250MB HDD when I was a kid.
* [11:36] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: like filing pjira is going to do you any good. been asking for ages to open up openid provider site uses for xstreet with no luck ;)
* [11:36] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: my first hard drive was 5MB, thought that was amazing
* [11:36] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: and used to use HPT diskpaks with 20MB as the ultimate secondary storage
* [11:36] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: Which: Make it more script friendly, so I don't have to pass in my login username and password. Something like CAPS.
* [11:37] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Well, like I said, we move slowly
* [11:37] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Economic: like if the login were OpenID would that make it easier for you?
* [11:37] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: It's really not hard to make a website. Not rocket science. Shouldn't need community reports and Jiras for basic functionality.
* [11:37] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: Your OpenID server doesn't like anyone else :/
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: is reminded of the cantina scene in Star Wars
* [11:38] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Morgaine, open id is already there, they just block any use of it
* [11:38] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Ew
* [11:38] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: not like they have to do any actual work lol
* [11:39] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Great tech, let down by policy. A common story.
* [11:39] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Nothing we can do about it though.
* [11:39] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: Toiletpaper M's office every thursday?
* [11:39] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I agree that a cap would be convenient; it might be challenging to manage its expiration
* [11:40] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Like, does ti give out a cap per session, or do you have a semi-permanent cap that's associated with your account?
* [11:40] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Opensim has both OpenID Provider and Relying Party modules. Any of you tried both?
* [11:41] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: Which: I would definitely be better than my curfrent system, which has to 1.) Parse the login form to grab a login token, (requiring XML parsing) 2.) actually log in, 3.) Parse XML transaction history (the easy part)
* [11:41] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: all while keeping a record of cookies and resetting the session for each new transaction
* [11:41] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Would you want a cap per login (assuming some login method that was more script-friendly) and discarded after the session was over?
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Or a semi-permanent cap that was associated with your account?
* [11:42] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: Semipermanent would be nice.
* [11:42] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: But the other one would be manageable, as they both have a lot less overhead
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I guess the magic in the first one is in the parenthetical
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: "Assuming you have a thing that doesn't suck, would things suck less?" "Yes"
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So I'm not an expert, but it does seem like many of the aspects of the current login that you find painful are also protection
* [11:44] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Not great protection, but, a little bit
* [11:44] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: HTML login forms with javascript that I have to parse to find a login token?
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yep, the login token protects us against DDOS from someone continuously POSTing to the page
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Also makes it more expensive for an attacker to brute-force passwords
* [11:47] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: You may be misinterpreting a very busy business that has to verify all transactions as a DDoS.
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Just DOS, not DDOS
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Um, well it's a passive protection not an active one
* [11:48] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: As in, a true attacker would find it computationally more difficult to pull off an attack because of this measure
* [11:48] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: True.
* [11:49] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: But a less-expensive system for valid scripts would be easier on some of us.
* [11:49] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: And not to mention on the servers that run those scripts
* [11:49] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Certainly
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'll write the semi-permanent cap idea up, see if I can see any flaws in it
* [11:51] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: I'd be happy with a CAP I have to grab each time I want to verify a transaction, would certainly be better than pretending to be a browser with CURL.
* [11:51] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Kinda misses the point that the only reason passwords can be brute forced is because you HAVE passwords. When the login is based on a cryptographic token which is protected by passphrase at the *users* site, then good look trying to brute-force the server login.
* [11:52] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: s/good look/good luck/
* [11:52] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: SRP, you mean?
* [11:53] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Any crypto mechanism, there's no shortage :P
* [11:53] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: [http://srp.stanford.edu/]
* [11:53] [[User:Khamon Fate|Khamon Fate]]: Oh for Heaven's sake, I've miscalculated the time again. I've a question if you can take it Which.
* [11:54] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Sue Khamon
* [11:54] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Sure
* [11:54] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: :-)
* [11:54] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: grabs lawyers
* [11:54] [[User:Khamon Fate|Khamon Fate]]: Can you explain the infrastructure updates required to support VWR-6713 - Allow Alpha Channel of Textures to be used as a 1-bit Mask (Alpha Masking)
* [11:54] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: waves at Khamon, as no scenary is visible owing to overlapped windows
* [11:54] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: and by lawyers I mean a ball of rags dressed up in a 3-peice suit
* [11:54] [[User:Khamon Fate|Khamon Fate]]: I'm hiding in the bamboo, can't see me ha ha ha
* [11:55] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Heh
* [11:55] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Khamon: um unfortunately we began this discussion with me being completely clueless about that topic. :-)
* [11:55] [[User:Khamon Fate|Khamon Fate]]: Nyx and BibgPapi says the avatar invisibility code has to be finished first
* [11:55] [[User:Khamon Fate|Khamon Fate]]: but that don't say why, or what the relationship is
* [11:55] [[User:Khamon Fate|Khamon Fate]]: Might you be willing to look into that for next week's meeting?
* [11:56] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It's a little out of my area -- don't those guys have office hours too?
* [11:56] [[User:Khamon Fate|Khamon Fate]]: It's a very key issue to any creator that works with alpha textures
* [11:56] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: nyx just told me on IRC that 1bit alpha masks for prims are planned for the future (yet to be determined) versions of the viewer
* [11:56] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: They do. They're also in AWG so we can interrog-I mean ask them nicely
* [11:56] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: he wouldn't commit on the timeline though ;)
* [11:56] [[User:Khamon Fate|Khamon Fate]]: They do, but they're saying it's infrastructure code updates they're waiting for.
* [11:57] [[User:Khamon Fate|Khamon Fate]]: Yes Latif Andrew told us the same thing four years ago
* [11:58] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Bad idea ever mentioning times for features, puts Lindens in a tough spot. Really what matters is just whether something is in active development, or merely mentioned over coffee.
* [11:58] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: they are working on alpha masks, its alrady implemented for the avatars, and prims are coming soon
* [11:58] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Great way to put it Morgaine
* [11:59] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: so i don't think its one of those "yeah, we'll have c# for scripting soon" ;)
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: most schedules are governed by factors far outside the understanding of a single individual
* [11:59] [[User:Khamon Fate|Khamon Fate]]: It certainly would've certainly put them in a spot if they'd put a timestamp on them at any point through the years we've talked about it
* [11:59] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: speakign of active development, definitely "sticky licenses" are being worked on as a supplement to the permissions system
* [12:00] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: polints to sign
* [12:00] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: points, too
* [12:00] [[User:Khamon Fate|Khamon Fate]]: Oh that's good Which. You should pass that along to Philip to replace "you simply don't understand the complexities of the code we're dealing with"
* [12:00] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: I've never liked speculative release dates. Things are ready when they're ready.
* [12:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i think lindens got too shy about mentioning deadlines since "oh, we'll have havok2 in a few months"
* [12:00] [[User:Khamon Fate|Khamon Fate]]: soon
* [12:00] [[User:Khamon Fate|Khamon Fate]]: soon Morgaine soo
* [12:00] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hehe
* [12:01] [[User:Khamon Fate|Khamon Fate]]: n
* [12:01] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: Havok 6 would be nice, since Havok 6 is freely available to noncorporate users.
* [12:01] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: >_>
* [12:02] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: don't think LL qualifies as non-corp though lol
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Nope....heh I'm sure everyone is real enthusiastic about going through all that again
* [12:02] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: lol
* [12:03] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: I was implying an opensource release since a major non-free license would be partially freed up
* [12:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh yeah that would be cool
* [12:03] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: could stick it into a viewer for cloth physics etc.
* [12:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Or... client-side predciction!
* [12:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: And let's not forget: doubling the size of the binary to download!
* [12:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yayy!
* [12:03] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: lol
* [12:04] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: Quadrupling actually
* [12:04] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: you lost me at "far outside the understanding of a single individual". That's universally a copout which puts the decision making into the hands of others, regardless of their competence. I don't buy that one. Techies are the people best placed to make technical decisions about a technical platform, not CEOs.
* [12:04] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: points at Havok 6 folder on his HDD.
* [12:06] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: PING
* [12:06] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Still here, but it's gone quiet
* [12:06] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: And Sai lost connection
* [12:06] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: /ctcp Which ping
* [12:06] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hehe
* [12:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: OK sorry Morgaine, didn't mean to make such a sweeping generalization
* [12:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah got distracted IRL
* [12:07] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hehe, wb
* [12:07] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: Coworker trying to steal your lunch?
* [12:07] [[User:Khamon Fate|Khamon Fate]]: I think we can leave it Morgain. The answer is apparently "no" they're not gonna provide the ability to upload 1-bit alpha textures.
* [12:08] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: Not publically, anyway
* [12:08] [[User:Khamon Fate|Khamon Fate]]: sorry Morgaine
* [12:08] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: Only Nyx seems to have the ability
* [12:08] [[User:Khamon Fate|Khamon Fate]]: Only Nyx doesn't seem to think it's important. We only see alpha flashes on every sim.
* [12:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Nyx is The One
* [12:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: But OK, I should run before getting distracted again, will try and follow up for ya Khamon
* [12:09] [[User:Khamon Fate|Khamon Fate]]: I only get a hundred IMs a week from customers wondering why trees are flashing through their alpha window walls
* [12:09] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Oh, it's not one of my areas of interest, I'm mainly about interop. But it's sad to see a subject brought up by a bazillion residents not being on the front burner.
* [12:09] [[User:Khamon Fate|Khamon Fate]]: Thanks Which, I'll be here on time next week
* [12:09] [[User:Khamon Fate|Khamon Fate]]: vote
* [12:09] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Cheers Which, tc :-)
* [12:09] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: If Nyx doesn't want to work on it, he should give us what he's done so far so the community can finish it for him
* [12:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: :-)
* [12:09] [[User:Khamon Fate|Khamon Fate]]: VWR-6713
* [12:10] [[User:Khamon Fate|Khamon Fate]]: vote vote vote
* [12:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Cool! Great talking with y'all!
* [12:10] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: OK Kh :-)
* [12:10] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: Voting doesn't do jack, IME.
* [12:10] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: take care which
* [12:10] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I agree, but expression of support helps
* [12:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It does have an effect, just not a hugely satisfying one from your perspective :-/
* [12:10] [[User:Economic Core|Economic Core]]: AYou can get a 300-vote showstopper and a Linden won't look at it until people show up with pitchforks
* [12:11] [[User:Papa Popinjay|Papa Popinjay]]: Thank you and bye
* [12:11] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: goes votes for VWR-6713
* [12:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Laters!

User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2009 Aug 27

2009-08-27T19:00:41Z

Which Linden: I guess it was actually a png

* [10:58] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hi there, people of above-average attractiveness!
* [10:58] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hiya Which!
* [10:58] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: LOL
* [10:59] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: hi which...
* [10:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hi!
* [11:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hi all
* [11:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I've entered the phase of my project where we are collecting one-in-a-million bugs
* [11:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hi Latif
* [11:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: what project is that?
* [11:00] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: what project is that?
* [11:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: L$ backend
* [11:00] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Shouldn't the 1 in 10 and 1 in 100 bugs be fixed first? ;-)
* [11:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah we fixed all those already
* [11:01] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: so you have been stealing my partner's money?
* [11:01] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hiya Latif
* [11:01] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
* [11:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so we are left with ones that happen rarely
* [11:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yes, so, yeah weird ones
* [11:01] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: my partner lost 150000 lindens
* [11:02] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: bug hunting is sometimes weird... generally it takes more time to hunt and fix them than write new code...
* [11:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: actually lost, or just displayed incorrectly?
* [11:02] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: if you think you're in the 1:10^6 area of bug fixing, you're not monitoring well enough ;-)
* [11:02] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which she had L$215,105
* [11:02] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: got payed $83 from my object in transaction 1869751606
* [11:03] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: the next ballance was L$67,654
* [11:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah, that's just a display error, that wasn't her actual balance
* [11:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Am looking at that bug right now
* [11:03] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: it shows in the transaction history as well, she almost had a heart attack when that happened lol
* [11:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: her actual balance was correct, but somehow the logging subsystem thought that her end balance wasn't what it actually was
* [11:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: her next transaction shows the correct end balance
* [11:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: (correct globally, not correct relative to the amount transferred in it)
* [11:04] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yes, I talked to Kelly atm, he said after relog the viewer should display the correct ballance
* [11:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so, still trying to figure out what caused it, perhaps it's something we're doing with the database differently
* [11:05] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: and it did... still very unnerving to have that happen ;)
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah....totally. Sorry about that
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: also looking at SVC-4182, which is more disturbing because it's not just a display issue
* [11:06] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: oh well, that was the 3rd thing of the trifecta linden unleashed on me this week lol
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: how often is that happening?
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I am going to write a script to detect that on the backend, but it'd be nice to know how much to expect
* [11:06] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: the other two things were not related to transactions... just LL testing my pain treshhold lol
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oh...you haven't seen the double transactions?
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh well, someone else's problem then. :-P
* [11:08] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hahaha, yeah Dee is on the other thing... they marked my new estate mainland so people buying parcels were being uprgraded to premiun account when buying land there :P
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh just wanted to reiterate: if you think that there's something wrong with your L$, either relog the viewer, or hit the website to check it, since there are many ways for the viewer to get temporarily confused.
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: And also report it, cause it sucks to have incorrect viewer balances
* [11:08] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: How about fixing the viewer?
* [11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah, that's longer-term
* [11:09] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: ROFL
* [11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: have to change a lot of assumptions
* [11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: for example, when you pay an object now, the viewer immediately deducts the payment amount from your balance before even sending the message
* [11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: then if it doesn't go through, the server has to correct the viewer's balance
* [11:10] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: that response was seriously bad. People seeing wrong balances in the viewer is not a minor thing. Pretty insensitive/callous.
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: the viewer should be more proactive about that sort of thing
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'm sorry that you're not happy with the reality of the situation, but I really can't fix the viewer immediately. :-)
* [11:11] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: but we get new marketing friendly sl 2.0 instead :P
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hooray!
* [11:11] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hahaha
* [11:11] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Well, nothing more needs saying. I think that speaks for itself.
* [11:12] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: A technical topic would be useful at this point.
* [11:12] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: I think it would be great if M held office hours, I'm duying to ask him "What's the thinking behind developing SL 2.0 behind the closed doors" ;)
* [11:12] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: might be just easier to throw away all viewer code and start from clean
* [11:12] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Heh, yeah, didn't we used to do town halls every so often?
* [11:13] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: yeah
* [11:13] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: that was back in Cory days
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yes we're actually rewriting the viewer in Scala :-P
* [11:13] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hahaha
* [11:13] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: yeah, townhall was great, but i think sl is too large now
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It's scalable, right? It's right in the name!
* [11:13] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: town halls?
* [11:14] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: That wouldn't actually be so daft. The viewer should be written in a safe langage, with only the inner hotspots like rendering code done in C++.
* [11:14] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: ah, the townhall groups dont apear in search any more
* [11:14] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: those size meetings tend to attract all the loonies too
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I think the townhalls probably got to be unscaleable themselves
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I remember it was a lot of shouting and "get in the queue sir"
* [11:15] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: yeah, it ends up more process than production
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hey Aimee, wanted to say that was an awesome image from the llmedia api
* [11:15] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: thanks :)
* [11:15] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Aimee++
* [11:15] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: there will be video to follow at some point
* [11:16] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: well... I am going to sauna... bye bye
* [11:16] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: but I'm still recovering from the aftermath of the last youtube video I published lol
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: have an awesome time
* [11:16] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Aimee: so after VNC, what next? :-)))
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: aftermath?
* [11:16] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: See you Imaze
* [11:16] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: lol
* [11:16] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, which brings me to another pet peeve of mine, allow uri field in TextureEntry struct and be done with it, none of this sily parcel media thing anymore ;)
* [11:16] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: generated so much interest I haven't been able to get any work done this week
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: well that's a problem of success, ain't it aimee? :-)
* [11:17] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: lol
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: you mean url on a prim? I think we've been batting that around for approximately a hundred years by now
* [11:17] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: yeah, I knew it was going to be popular, I had no idea HOW popular
* [11:18] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Aimee: yeah, 10 proposals of marriage a day can be quite draining ;-)
* [11:18] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The roadmap read: "1. awaken Great Old Ones 2. url on a prim"
* [11:18] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yes, its time to stop and implement it already, with these media plugins, one media texture per parcel is going to be even bigger pita than it is now
* [11:18] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha ha, don't you have to pay 250 L$ for a marriage proposal?
* [11:19] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, no marriage is free, divorce is 25 $L lol
* [11:19] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: lol
* [11:19] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: haha
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: how puritan of us
* [11:19] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: what if you dont have 25?
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: :-)
* [11:19] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hahaha
* [11:19] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lonetorus, then you're stuck :P
* [11:19] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: and camping 25L these days is harder than ever XD
* [11:20] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: If you lack the cash, you're stuck with polygamy.
* [11:20] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: go camp or something... oh wait, that's illegal now
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: the lawyer-bots need oil, you know
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: actually it kinda makes sense as a throttle -- if it was free there would be lots more spouse-making and spouse-breaking
* [11:20] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yeah
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but since it costs to break it up, it isn't a cost for people who just want to show their love
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but....we missed out on the "it's complicated" meme, that's for sure
* [11:21] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: [http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2122]
* [11:21] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: (enable multiple partners)
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hah
* [11:21] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: haha
* [11:21] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hehe
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: lotta votes on that
* [11:22] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: im sure its "ok" in some sl communities
* [11:23] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: It's a virtual world. What's "OK" in RL and here don't necessarily have to track each other.
* [11:23] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: i agree, i would be cool with polygami in sl
* [11:23] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: I'm afraid that' going nowhere, now with M at the helm, SL is in some areas becoming more restricted than RL. For example the new (TM) rules say that you cannot sell Elvis Presley avatar without obtaining consent from his estate
* [11:23] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The problem is, partnering is like many of our features; hastily implemented back in the day with the plan of either improving it radically if it took off, or removing it altogether
* [11:24] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: If that restriction existed in RL half of the costume shops would have to be closed for selling Elvis or Merylin outfits for costume parties
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Well I imagine it was technically illegal to sell images of The King without his permission in the past too
* [11:24] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: which, btw, your bamboo inspired me to sculpt some
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Really? Does it look good?
* [11:25] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: i think so
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oh lemme rez it
* [11:25] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: gave you Sculpted bamboo, builders kit, copy/mod (boxed).
* [11:25] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yeah, so much for the "Your world, your imagination". Instead, all the restrictions of RL are slowly seeping in. Or quickly.
* [11:25] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: SL should declare independence and ask for admitance to the UN lol
* [11:26] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: that box is probbaly bitten by the bulk permission bug :/
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha ha
* [11:26] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: UN is RL. But no doubt there will be federations of VWs too in the future.
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I mean, that's sad actually
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: people are working on that BTW
* [11:27] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: am I an idiot? I can't drag the contents out onto the ground
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: it seems to think I am the owner
* [11:28] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: o_O
* [11:28] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: brb, ill lift a assembled set from home
* [11:28] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: its black magic, sometimes it works,sometimes it doesn't
* [11:28] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: What's the most closed "walled country" around in RL atm, with borders firmly closed? Because that's what SL is currently.
* [11:29] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: gave you sculpted bamboo.
* [11:29] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: there, try that
* [11:29] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oh wow that looks quite good
* [11:29] [[User:JayR Cela|JayR Cela]]: North Korea / mabey ?
* [11:29] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: much more realistic and prim-conserving
* [11:30] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: yeah, a step up from alpha billboards
* [11:30] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: the main reason that there's not much else on my land is cause 80% of my prim limit is eaten up by my bamboo
* [11:30] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I expect North Korea trades with some nations
* [11:30] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: morg, yeah, weapons :)
* [11:30] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Oh yeah, lots of trade there :-)
* [11:31] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: man, thanks for showing me those, lonetorus, very inspiring
* [11:31] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: gave you sculpt grass.
* [11:32] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: people do funky things with sculpties
* [11:32] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: gonna take a screenshot
* [11:32] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i've seen like 6 palms in 1 prim
* [11:33] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: yeah, prims are fun to play with, i like how limited they are, compared to full mesh
* [11:33] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ok that took me way too long
* [[Image:lonetorus_habilis_bamboo.png]]
* [11:34] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: gave you 7th cube - 62 cubes in 1 sculpt.
* [11:34] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: ah, and sorry, did not mean to highjack the OH
* [11:34] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: so whats on the agenda
* [11:34] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: well, L$ was on the agenda
* [11:34] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: hah, thats my 62 cube thing
* [11:34] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but we already know what's up there
* [11:34] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: when oblongs where introduced
* [11:34] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hehehe
* [11:34] [[User:JayR Cela|JayR Cela]]: what about L$
* [11:35] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: JayR: L$ got a new backend, some bugs that occur rarely are on our radar
* [11:36] [[User:JayR Cela|JayR Cela]]: ahhh
* [11:36] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: anyhting with a jira?
* [11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: those cubes are a thing of beauty
* [11:36] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: actually i messed up, was supposed to be 64 cubes
* [11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: [http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4182]
* [11:36] [[User:JayR Cela|JayR Cela]]: how about when are textures going to be converted over completly to http ?
* [11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I don't know about that
* [11:36] [[User:JayR Cela|JayR Cela]]: :(
* [11:37] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: oh i have seen the double transaction thing
* [11:37] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah.....I wish I knew more
* [11:37] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: svc.4182
* [11:37] [[User:JayR Cela|JayR Cela]]: i wish they would speed the transition up a bit
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: we would be a lot faster if we either a) stopped all work and wrote assloads of automated tests, or b) just broke everything in the quest for better architecture
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but neither is really a great idea so we're just moving slowly ahead on all fronts
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: little changes, compounded, will add up to something great at the end
* [11:39] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: hopefully before 2027
* [11:39] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which is why the sensible approach would be to be working on a parallel replacement infrastructure, instead of either a) or b).
* [11:39] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: if politics/great marketing ideas don't interfere from the top ;)
* [11:39] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: back
* [11:40] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Wb Imaze
* [11:40] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so I'm wondering, on the duplicate transactions, if somehow we have some sort of duplicate detection code that we're bypassing now
* [11:40] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: that would be a terrible hak
* [11:41] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: the whole LSL money() event is one big mess
* [11:41] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah, it sucks that it doesn't have confirmation
* [11:41] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: all failure modes that you could think of (and a few extra) occur
* [11:41] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha yeah
* [11:41] [[User:JayR Cela|JayR Cela]]: sounds like an errant repeating loop function may be the culpret
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: knowing that makes coding a real treat, let me tell you
* [11:42] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, the worst one is being, money gets transacted, but money() event is never called
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: can't make any assumptions about anything
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oh yeah.....I was thinking llgivemoney but money() is kinda the same
* [11:42] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: money() is worse... customers saying you stole my money, i payed and nothing was delivered
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: :-(
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: that code is very complicated, sadly
* [11:43] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: but there linden reputation for "stability" helps lol
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: heh
* [11:44] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i just say, well you know how realiable SL is, nothing i can do about it, most people nod and move on ;)
* [11:44] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: as part of my project we only touched as little of it as we could, in order to insert our new backend
* [11:44] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: we just redeliver, we have no way to confirm it, as transaction histoy is seems incomplete or maxed out, (seems to drop entries in the excel file when we have about 2-3 days worth of transactions
* [11:44] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: excel files have a row limit of 65536
* [11:45] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Wasn't CHTTP escrow going to be handling that?
* [11:45] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: morgaine: that's the end goal
* [11:45] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but the simulator will still be the weakest link
* [11:45] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lonetorus, I just redeliver too, I have no way of knowing if they were telling the truth
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: can't you check your own transaction history to see if you got L$ from the person?
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I guess you don't know what it's for
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: But....could help in some cases
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: (assuming you can actually download your own history)
* [11:47] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, if I say $3000 no copy item... and that person comes and claims they nevrer got it, i can confirm that they have payed, but have now way of telling if they genuenly didn't get or are scamming me for a second free copy
* [11:47] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: sell
* [11:47] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: which, well i dunno, excel files are incomlete, and we do well over 500 transactions a day, though excel files seem more complete when fetched for just 1-2 days, instead of generating for a longer time span, also seeing the description field missing sometimes, so we cnt see what the transaction was for)
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: oh....I see
* [11:48] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: im currently building our own vendor backend, to keep track of this stuff, but hearing money() is broken does not help
* [11:49] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lonetorus, its at peek concurency when you get those dreadful "transaction is stale" message
* [11:49] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah....if anything can go wrong, it totally will :-(
* [11:49] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: do those still happen?
* [11:50] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i have not seen them in couple of months i guess
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It's possible they are replaced with a different error message now
* [11:50] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: but transations still timeout from time to time when db load goeas overboard
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah, working on that too; eventually L$ will be

File:Lonetorus habilis bamboo.png

2009-08-27T18:59:53Z

Which Linden:

User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2009 Aug 27

2009-08-27T18:59:14Z

Which Linden: Inline image!

* [10:58] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hi there, people of above-average attractiveness!
* [10:58] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hiya Which!
* [10:58] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: LOL
* [10:59] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: hi which...
* [10:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hi!
* [11:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hi all
* [11:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I've entered the phase of my project where we are collecting one-in-a-million bugs
* [11:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hi Latif
* [11:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: what project is that?
* [11:00] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: what project is that?
* [11:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: L$ backend
* [11:00] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Shouldn't the 1 in 10 and 1 in 100 bugs be fixed first? ;-)
* [11:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah we fixed all those already
* [11:01] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: so you have been stealing my partner's money?
* [11:01] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hiya Latif
* [11:01] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
* [11:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so we are left with ones that happen rarely
* [11:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yes, so, yeah weird ones
* [11:01] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: my partner lost 150000 lindens
* [11:02] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: bug hunting is sometimes weird... generally it takes more time to hunt and fix them than write new code...
* [11:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: actually lost, or just displayed incorrectly?
* [11:02] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: if you think you're in the 1:10^6 area of bug fixing, you're not monitoring well enough ;-)
* [11:02] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which she had L$215,105
* [11:02] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: got payed $83 from my object in transaction 1869751606
* [11:03] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: the next ballance was L$67,654
* [11:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah, that's just a display error, that wasn't her actual balance
* [11:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Am looking at that bug right now
* [11:03] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: it shows in the transaction history as well, she almost had a heart attack when that happened lol
* [11:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: her actual balance was correct, but somehow the logging subsystem thought that her end balance wasn't what it actually was
* [11:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: her next transaction shows the correct end balance
* [11:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: (correct globally, not correct relative to the amount transferred in it)
* [11:04] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yes, I talked to Kelly atm, he said after relog the viewer should display the correct ballance
* [11:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so, still trying to figure out what caused it, perhaps it's something we're doing with the database differently
* [11:05] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: and it did... still very unnerving to have that happen ;)
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah....totally. Sorry about that
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: also looking at SVC-4182, which is more disturbing because it's not just a display issue
* [11:06] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: oh well, that was the 3rd thing of the trifecta linden unleashed on me this week lol
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: how often is that happening?
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I am going to write a script to detect that on the backend, but it'd be nice to know how much to expect
* [11:06] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: the other two things were not related to transactions... just LL testing my pain treshhold lol
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oh...you haven't seen the double transactions?
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh well, someone else's problem then. :-P
* [11:08] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hahaha, yeah Dee is on the other thing... they marked my new estate mainland so people buying parcels were being uprgraded to premiun account when buying land there :P
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh just wanted to reiterate: if you think that there's something wrong with your L$, either relog the viewer, or hit the website to check it, since there are many ways for the viewer to get temporarily confused.
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: And also report it, cause it sucks to have incorrect viewer balances
* [11:08] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: How about fixing the viewer?
* [11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah, that's longer-term
* [11:09] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: ROFL
* [11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: have to change a lot of assumptions
* [11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: for example, when you pay an object now, the viewer immediately deducts the payment amount from your balance before even sending the message
* [11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: then if it doesn't go through, the server has to correct the viewer's balance
* [11:10] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: that response was seriously bad. People seeing wrong balances in the viewer is not a minor thing. Pretty insensitive/callous.
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: the viewer should be more proactive about that sort of thing
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'm sorry that you're not happy with the reality of the situation, but I really can't fix the viewer immediately. :-)
* [11:11] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: but we get new marketing friendly sl 2.0 instead :P
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hooray!
* [11:11] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hahaha
* [11:11] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Well, nothing more needs saying. I think that speaks for itself.
* [11:12] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: A technical topic would be useful at this point.
* [11:12] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: I think it would be great if M held office hours, I'm duying to ask him "What's the thinking behind developing SL 2.0 behind the closed doors" ;)
* [11:12] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: might be just easier to throw away all viewer code and start from clean
* [11:12] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Heh, yeah, didn't we used to do town halls every so often?
* [11:13] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: yeah
* [11:13] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: that was back in Cory days
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yes we're actually rewriting the viewer in Scala :-P
* [11:13] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hahaha
* [11:13] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: yeah, townhall was great, but i think sl is too large now
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It's scalable, right? It's right in the name!
* [11:13] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: town halls?
* [11:14] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: That wouldn't actually be so daft. The viewer should be written in a safe langage, with only the inner hotspots like rendering code done in C++.
* [11:14] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: ah, the townhall groups dont apear in search any more
* [11:14] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: those size meetings tend to attract all the loonies too
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I think the townhalls probably got to be unscaleable themselves
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I remember it was a lot of shouting and "get in the queue sir"
* [11:15] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: yeah, it ends up more process than production
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hey Aimee, wanted to say that was an awesome image from the llmedia api
* [11:15] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: thanks :)
* [11:15] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Aimee++
* [11:15] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: there will be video to follow at some point
* [11:16] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: well... I am going to sauna... bye bye
* [11:16] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: but I'm still recovering from the aftermath of the last youtube video I published lol
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: have an awesome time
* [11:16] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Aimee: so after VNC, what next? :-)))
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: aftermath?
* [11:16] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: See you Imaze
* [11:16] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: lol
* [11:16] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, which brings me to another pet peeve of mine, allow uri field in TextureEntry struct and be done with it, none of this sily parcel media thing anymore ;)
* [11:16] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: generated so much interest I haven't been able to get any work done this week
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: well that's a problem of success, ain't it aimee? :-)
* [11:17] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: lol
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: you mean url on a prim? I think we've been batting that around for approximately a hundred years by now
* [11:17] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: yeah, I knew it was going to be popular, I had no idea HOW popular
* [11:18] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Aimee: yeah, 10 proposals of marriage a day can be quite draining ;-)
* [11:18] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The roadmap read: "1. awaken Great Old Ones 2. url on a prim"
* [11:18] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yes, its time to stop and implement it already, with these media plugins, one media texture per parcel is going to be even bigger pita than it is now
* [11:18] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha ha, don't you have to pay 250 L$ for a marriage proposal?
* [11:19] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, no marriage is free, divorce is 25 $L lol
* [11:19] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: lol
* [11:19] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: haha
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: how puritan of us
* [11:19] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: what if you dont have 25?
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: :-)
* [11:19] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hahaha
* [11:19] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lonetorus, then you're stuck :P
* [11:19] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: and camping 25L these days is harder than ever XD
* [11:20] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: If you lack the cash, you're stuck with polygamy.
* [11:20] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: go camp or something... oh wait, that's illegal now
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: the lawyer-bots need oil, you know
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: actually it kinda makes sense as a throttle -- if it was free there would be lots more spouse-making and spouse-breaking
* [11:20] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yeah
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but since it costs to break it up, it isn't a cost for people who just want to show their love
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but....we missed out on the "it's complicated" meme, that's for sure
* [11:21] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: [http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2122]
* [11:21] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: (enable multiple partners)
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hah
* [11:21] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: haha
* [11:21] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hehe
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: lotta votes on that
* [11:22] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: im sure its "ok" in some sl communities
* [11:23] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: It's a virtual world. What's "OK" in RL and here don't necessarily have to track each other.
* [11:23] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: i agree, i would be cool with polygami in sl
* [11:23] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: I'm afraid that' going nowhere, now with M at the helm, SL is in some areas becoming more restricted than RL. For example the new (TM) rules say that you cannot sell Elvis Presley avatar without obtaining consent from his estate
* [11:23] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The problem is, partnering is like many of our features; hastily implemented back in the day with the plan of either improving it radically if it took off, or removing it altogether
* [11:24] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: If that restriction existed in RL half of the costume shops would have to be closed for selling Elvis or Merylin outfits for costume parties
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Well I imagine it was technically illegal to sell images of The King without his permission in the past too
* [11:24] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: which, btw, your bamboo inspired me to sculpt some
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Really? Does it look good?
* [11:25] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: i think so
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oh lemme rez it
* [11:25] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: gave you Sculpted bamboo, builders kit, copy/mod (boxed).
* [11:25] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yeah, so much for the "Your world, your imagination". Instead, all the restrictions of RL are slowly seeping in. Or quickly.
* [11:25] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: SL should declare independence and ask for admitance to the UN lol
* [11:26] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: that box is probbaly bitten by the bulk permission bug :/
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha ha
* [11:26] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: UN is RL. But no doubt there will be federations of VWs too in the future.
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I mean, that's sad actually
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: people are working on that BTW
* [11:27] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: am I an idiot? I can't drag the contents out onto the ground
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: it seems to think I am the owner
* [11:28] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: o_O
* [11:28] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: brb, ill lift a assembled set from home
* [11:28] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: its black magic, sometimes it works,sometimes it doesn't
* [11:28] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: What's the most closed "walled country" around in RL atm, with borders firmly closed? Because that's what SL is currently.
* [11:29] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: gave you sculpted bamboo.
* [11:29] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: there, try that
* [11:29] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oh wow that looks quite good
* [11:29] [[User:JayR Cela|JayR Cela]]: North Korea / mabey ?
* [11:29] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: much more realistic and prim-conserving
* [11:30] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: yeah, a step up from alpha billboards
* [11:30] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: the main reason that there's not much else on my land is cause 80% of my prim limit is eaten up by my bamboo
* [11:30] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I expect North Korea trades with some nations
* [11:30] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: morg, yeah, weapons :)
* [11:30] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Oh yeah, lots of trade there :-)
* [11:31] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: man, thanks for showing me those, lonetorus, very inspiring
* [11:31] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: gave you sculpt grass.
* [11:32] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: people do funky things with sculpties
* [11:32] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: gonna take a screenshot
* [11:32] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i've seen like 6 palms in 1 prim
* [11:33] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: yeah, prims are fun to play with, i like how limited they are, compared to full mesh
* [11:33] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ok that took me way too long
* [[Image:lonetorus_habilis_bamboo.jpg]]
* [11:34] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: gave you 7th cube - 62 cubes in 1 sculpt.
* [11:34] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: ah, and sorry, did not mean to highjack the OH
* [11:34] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: so whats on the agenda
* [11:34] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: well, L$ was on the agenda
* [11:34] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: hah, thats my 62 cube thing
* [11:34] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but we already know what's up there
* [11:34] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: when oblongs where introduced
* [11:34] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hehehe
* [11:34] [[User:JayR Cela|JayR Cela]]: what about L$
* [11:35] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: JayR: L$ got a new backend, some bugs that occur rarely are on our radar
* [11:36] [[User:JayR Cela|JayR Cela]]: ahhh
* [11:36] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: anyhting with a jira?
* [11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: those cubes are a thing of beauty
* [11:36] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: actually i messed up, was supposed to be 64 cubes
* [11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: [http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4182]
* [11:36] [[User:JayR Cela|JayR Cela]]: how about when are textures going to be converted over completly to http ?
* [11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I don't know about that
* [11:36] [[User:JayR Cela|JayR Cela]]: :(
* [11:37] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: oh i have seen the double transaction thing
* [11:37] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah.....I wish I knew more
* [11:37] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: svc.4182
* [11:37] [[User:JayR Cela|JayR Cela]]: i wish they would speed the transition up a bit
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: we would be a lot faster if we either a) stopped all work and wrote assloads of automated tests, or b) just broke everything in the quest for better architecture
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but neither is really a great idea so we're just moving slowly ahead on all fronts
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: little changes, compounded, will add up to something great at the end
* [11:39] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: hopefully before 2027
* [11:39] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which is why the sensible approach would be to be working on a parallel replacement infrastructure, instead of either a) or b).
* [11:39] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: if politics/great marketing ideas don't interfere from the top ;)
* [11:39] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: back
* [11:40] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Wb Imaze
* [11:40] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so I'm wondering, on the duplicate transactions, if somehow we have some sort of duplicate detection code that we're bypassing now
* [11:40] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: that would be a terrible hak
* [11:41] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: the whole LSL money() event is one big mess
* [11:41] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah, it sucks that it doesn't have confirmation
* [11:41] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: all failure modes that you could think of (and a few extra) occur
* [11:41] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha yeah
* [11:41] [[User:JayR Cela|JayR Cela]]: sounds like an errant repeating loop function may be the culpret
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: knowing that makes coding a real treat, let me tell you
* [11:42] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, the worst one is being, money gets transacted, but money() event is never called
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: can't make any assumptions about anything
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oh yeah.....I was thinking llgivemoney but money() is kinda the same
* [11:42] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: money() is worse... customers saying you stole my money, i payed and nothing was delivered
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: :-(
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: that code is very complicated, sadly
* [11:43] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: but there linden reputation for "stability" helps lol
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: heh
* [11:44] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i just say, well you know how realiable SL is, nothing i can do about it, most people nod and move on ;)
* [11:44] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: as part of my project we only touched as little of it as we could, in order to insert our new backend
* [11:44] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: we just redeliver, we have no way to confirm it, as transaction histoy is seems incomplete or maxed out, (seems to drop entries in the excel file when we have about 2-3 days worth of transactions
* [11:44] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: excel files have a row limit of 65536
* [11:45] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Wasn't CHTTP escrow going to be handling that?
* [11:45] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: morgaine: that's the end goal
* [11:45] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but the simulator will still be the weakest link
* [11:45] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lonetorus, I just redeliver too, I have no way of knowing if they were telling the truth
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: can't you check your own transaction history to see if you got L$ from the person?
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I guess you don't know what it's for
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: But....could help in some cases
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: (assuming you can actually download your own history)
* [11:47] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, if I say $3000 no copy item... and that person comes and claims they nevrer got it, i can confirm that they have payed, but have now way of telling if they genuenly didn't get or are scamming me for a second free copy
* [11:47] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: sell
* [11:47] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: which, well i dunno, excel files are incomlete, and we do well over 500 transactions a day, though excel files seem more complete when fetched for just 1-2 days, instead of generating for a longer time span, also seeing the description field missing sometimes, so we cnt see what the transaction was for)
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: oh....I see
* [11:48] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: im currently building our own vendor backend, to keep track of this stuff, but hearing money() is broken does not help
* [11:49] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lonetorus, its at peek concurency when you get those dreadful "transaction is stale" message
* [11:49] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah....if anything can go wrong, it totally will :-(
* [11:49] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: do those still happen?
* [11:50] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i have not seen them in couple of months i guess
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It's possible they are replaced with a different error message now
* [11:50] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: but transations still timeout from time to time when db load goeas overboard
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah, working on that too; eventually L$ will be

User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2009 Aug 27

2009-08-27T18:57:52Z

Which Linden: Created page with '* [10:58] Which Linden: Hi there, people of above-average attractiveness! * [10:58] Morgaine Dinova: Hiya Which! * [10:58] [[User...'

* [10:58] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hi there, people of above-average attractiveness!
* [10:58] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hiya Which!
* [10:58] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: LOL
* [10:59] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: hi which...
* [10:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hi!
* [11:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hi all
* [11:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I've entered the phase of my project where we are collecting one-in-a-million bugs
* [11:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hi Latif
* [11:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: what project is that?
* [11:00] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: what project is that?
* [11:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: L$ backend
* [11:00] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Shouldn't the 1 in 10 and 1 in 100 bugs be fixed first? ;-)
* [11:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah we fixed all those already
* [11:01] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: so you have been stealing my partner's money?
* [11:01] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hiya Latif
* [11:01] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
* [11:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so we are left with ones that happen rarely
* [11:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yes, so, yeah weird ones
* [11:01] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: my partner lost 150000 lindens
* [11:02] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: bug hunting is sometimes weird... generally it takes more time to hunt and fix them than write new code...
* [11:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: actually lost, or just displayed incorrectly?
* [11:02] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: if you think you're in the 1:10^6 area of bug fixing, you're not monitoring well enough ;-)
* [11:02] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which she had L$215,105
* [11:02] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: got payed $83 from my object in transaction 1869751606
* [11:03] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: the next ballance was L$67,654
* [11:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah, that's just a display error, that wasn't her actual balance
* [11:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Am looking at that bug right now
* [11:03] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: it shows in the transaction history as well, she almost had a heart attack when that happened lol
* [11:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: her actual balance was correct, but somehow the logging subsystem thought that her end balance wasn't what it actually was
* [11:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: her next transaction shows the correct end balance
* [11:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: (correct globally, not correct relative to the amount transferred in it)
* [11:04] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yes, I talked to Kelly atm, he said after relog the viewer should display the correct ballance
* [11:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so, still trying to figure out what caused it, perhaps it's something we're doing with the database differently
* [11:05] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: and it did... still very unnerving to have that happen ;)
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah....totally. Sorry about that
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: also looking at SVC-4182, which is more disturbing because it's not just a display issue
* [11:06] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: oh well, that was the 3rd thing of the trifecta linden unleashed on me this week lol
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: how often is that happening?
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I am going to write a script to detect that on the backend, but it'd be nice to know how much to expect
* [11:06] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: the other two things were not related to transactions... just LL testing my pain treshhold lol
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oh...you haven't seen the double transactions?
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh well, someone else's problem then. :-P
* [11:08] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hahaha, yeah Dee is on the other thing... they marked my new estate mainland so people buying parcels were being uprgraded to premiun account when buying land there :P
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh just wanted to reiterate: if you think that there's something wrong with your L$, either relog the viewer, or hit the website to check it, since there are many ways for the viewer to get temporarily confused.
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: And also report it, cause it sucks to have incorrect viewer balances
* [11:08] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: How about fixing the viewer?
* [11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah, that's longer-term
* [11:09] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: ROFL
* [11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: have to change a lot of assumptions
* [11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: for example, when you pay an object now, the viewer immediately deducts the payment amount from your balance before even sending the message
* [11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: then if it doesn't go through, the server has to correct the viewer's balance
* [11:10] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: that response was seriously bad. People seeing wrong balances in the viewer is not a minor thing. Pretty insensitive/callous.
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: the viewer should be more proactive about that sort of thing
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'm sorry that you're not happy with the reality of the situation, but I really can't fix the viewer immediately. :-)
* [11:11] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: but we get new marketing friendly sl 2.0 instead :P
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hooray!
* [11:11] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hahaha
* [11:11] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Well, nothing more needs saying. I think that speaks for itself.
* [11:12] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: A technical topic would be useful at this point.
* [11:12] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: I think it would be great if M held office hours, I'm duying to ask him "What's the thinking behind developing SL 2.0 behind the closed doors" ;)
* [11:12] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: might be just easier to throw away all viewer code and start from clean
* [11:12] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Heh, yeah, didn't we used to do town halls every so often?
* [11:13] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: yeah
* [11:13] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: that was back in Cory days
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yes we're actually rewriting the viewer in Scala :-P
* [11:13] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hahaha
* [11:13] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: yeah, townhall was great, but i think sl is too large now
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It's scalable, right? It's right in the name!
* [11:13] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: town halls?
* [11:14] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: That wouldn't actually be so daft. The viewer should be written in a safe langage, with only the inner hotspots like rendering code done in C++.
* [11:14] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: ah, the townhall groups dont apear in search any more
* [11:14] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: those size meetings tend to attract all the loonies too
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I think the townhalls probably got to be unscaleable themselves
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I remember it was a lot of shouting and "get in the queue sir"
* [11:15] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: yeah, it ends up more process than production
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hey Aimee, wanted to say that was an awesome image from the llmedia api
* [11:15] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: thanks :)
* [11:15] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Aimee++
* [11:15] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: there will be video to follow at some point
* [11:16] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: well... I am going to sauna... bye bye
* [11:16] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: but I'm still recovering from the aftermath of the last youtube video I published lol
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: have an awesome time
* [11:16] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Aimee: so after VNC, what next? :-)))
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: aftermath?
* [11:16] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: See you Imaze
* [11:16] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: lol
* [11:16] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, which brings me to another pet peeve of mine, allow uri field in TextureEntry struct and be done with it, none of this sily parcel media thing anymore ;)
* [11:16] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: generated so much interest I haven't been able to get any work done this week
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: well that's a problem of success, ain't it aimee? :-)
* [11:17] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: lol
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: you mean url on a prim? I think we've been batting that around for approximately a hundred years by now
* [11:17] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: yeah, I knew it was going to be popular, I had no idea HOW popular
* [11:18] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Aimee: yeah, 10 proposals of marriage a day can be quite draining ;-)
* [11:18] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The roadmap read: "1. awaken Great Old Ones 2. url on a prim"
* [11:18] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yes, its time to stop and implement it already, with these media plugins, one media texture per parcel is going to be even bigger pita than it is now
* [11:18] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha ha, don't you have to pay 250 L$ for a marriage proposal?
* [11:19] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, no marriage is free, divorce is 25 $L lol
* [11:19] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: lol
* [11:19] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: haha
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: how puritan of us
* [11:19] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: what if you dont have 25?
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: :-)
* [11:19] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hahaha
* [11:19] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lonetorus, then you're stuck :P
* [11:19] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: and camping 25L these days is harder than ever XD
* [11:20] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: If you lack the cash, you're stuck with polygamy.
* [11:20] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: go camp or something... oh wait, that's illegal now
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: the lawyer-bots need oil, you know
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: actually it kinda makes sense as a throttle -- if it was free there would be lots more spouse-making and spouse-breaking
* [11:20] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yeah
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but since it costs to break it up, it isn't a cost for people who just want to show their love
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but....we missed out on the "it's complicated" meme, that's for sure
* [11:21] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: [http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2122]
* [11:21] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: (enable multiple partners)
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hah
* [11:21] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: haha
* [11:21] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hehe
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: lotta votes on that
* [11:22] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: im sure its "ok" in some sl communities
* [11:23] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: It's a virtual world. What's "OK" in RL and here don't necessarily have to track each other.
* [11:23] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: i agree, i would be cool with polygami in sl
* [11:23] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: I'm afraid that' going nowhere, now with M at the helm, SL is in some areas becoming more restricted than RL. For example the new (TM) rules say that you cannot sell Elvis Presley avatar without obtaining consent from his estate
* [11:23] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The problem is, partnering is like many of our features; hastily implemented back in the day with the plan of either improving it radically if it took off, or removing it altogether
* [11:24] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: If that restriction existed in RL half of the costume shops would have to be closed for selling Elvis or Merylin outfits for costume parties
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Well I imagine it was technically illegal to sell images of The King without his permission in the past too
* [11:24] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: which, btw, your bamboo inspired me to sculpt some
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Really? Does it look good?
* [11:25] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: i think so
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oh lemme rez it
* [11:25] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: gave you Sculpted bamboo, builders kit, copy/mod (boxed).
* [11:25] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yeah, so much for the "Your world, your imagination". Instead, all the restrictions of RL are slowly seeping in. Or quickly.
* [11:25] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: SL should declare independence and ask for admitance to the UN lol
* [11:26] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: that box is probbaly bitten by the bulk permission bug :/
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha ha
* [11:26] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: UN is RL. But no doubt there will be federations of VWs too in the future.
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I mean, that's sad actually
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: people are working on that BTW
* [11:27] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: am I an idiot? I can't drag the contents out onto the ground
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: it seems to think I am the owner
* [11:28] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: o_O
* [11:28] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: brb, ill lift a assembled set from home
* [11:28] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: its black magic, sometimes it works,sometimes it doesn't
* [11:28] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: What's the most closed "walled country" around in RL atm, with borders firmly closed? Because that's what SL is currently.
* [11:29] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: gave you sculpted bamboo.
* [11:29] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: there, try that
* [11:29] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oh wow that looks quite good
* [11:29] [[User:JayR Cela|JayR Cela]]: North Korea / mabey ?
* [11:29] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: much more realistic and prim-conserving
* [11:30] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: yeah, a step up from alpha billboards
* [11:30] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: the main reason that there's not much else on my land is cause 80% of my prim limit is eaten up by my bamboo
* [11:30] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I expect North Korea trades with some nations
* [11:30] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: morg, yeah, weapons :)
* [11:30] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Oh yeah, lots of trade there :-)
* [11:31] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: man, thanks for showing me those, lonetorus, very inspiring
* [11:31] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: gave you sculpt grass.
* [11:32] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: people do funky things with sculpties
* [11:32] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: gonna take a screenshot
* [11:32] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i've seen like 6 palms in 1 prim
* [11:33] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: yeah, prims are fun to play with, i like how limited they are, compared to full mesh
* [11:33] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ok that took me way too long
* [11:34] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: gave you 7th cube - 62 cubes in 1 sculpt.
* [11:34] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: ah, and sorry, did not mean to highjack the OH
* [11:34] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: so whats on the agenda
* [11:34] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: well, L$ was on the agenda
* [11:34] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: hah, thats my 62 cube thing
* [11:34] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but we already know what's up there
* [11:34] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: when oblongs where introduced
* [11:34] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hehehe
* [11:34] [[User:JayR Cela|JayR Cela]]: what about L$
* [11:35] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: JayR: L$ got a new backend, some bugs that occur rarely are on our radar
* [11:36] [[User:JayR Cela|JayR Cela]]: ahhh
* [11:36] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: anyhting with a jira?
* [11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: those cubes are a thing of beauty
* [11:36] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: actually i messed up, was supposed to be 64 cubes
* [11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: [http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4182]
* [11:36] [[User:JayR Cela|JayR Cela]]: how about when are textures going to be converted over completly to http ?
* [11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I don't know about that
* [11:36] [[User:JayR Cela|JayR Cela]]: :(
* [11:37] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: oh i have seen the double transaction thing
* [11:37] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah.....I wish I knew more
* [11:37] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: svc.4182
* [11:37] [[User:JayR Cela|JayR Cela]]: i wish they would speed the transition up a bit
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: we would be a lot faster if we either a) stopped all work and wrote assloads of automated tests, or b) just broke everything in the quest for better architecture
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but neither is really a great idea so we're just moving slowly ahead on all fronts
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: little changes, compounded, will add up to something great at the end
* [11:39] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: hopefully before 2027
* [11:39] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which is why the sensible approach would be to be working on a parallel replacement infrastructure, instead of either a) or b).
* [11:39] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: if politics/great marketing ideas don't interfere from the top ;)
* [11:39] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: back
* [11:40] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Wb Imaze
* [11:40] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so I'm wondering, on the duplicate transactions, if somehow we have some sort of duplicate detection code that we're bypassing now
* [11:40] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: that would be a terrible hak
* [11:41] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: the whole LSL money() event is one big mess
* [11:41] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah, it sucks that it doesn't have confirmation
* [11:41] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: all failure modes that you could think of (and a few extra) occur
* [11:41] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha yeah
* [11:41] [[User:JayR Cela|JayR Cela]]: sounds like an errant repeating loop function may be the culpret
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: knowing that makes coding a real treat, let me tell you
* [11:42] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, the worst one is being, money gets transacted, but money() event is never called
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: can't make any assumptions about anything
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oh yeah.....I was thinking llgivemoney but money() is kinda the same
* [11:42] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: money() is worse... customers saying you stole my money, i payed and nothing was delivered
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: :-(
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: that code is very complicated, sadly
* [11:43] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: but there linden reputation for "stability" helps lol
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: heh
* [11:44] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i just say, well you know how realiable SL is, nothing i can do about it, most people nod and move on ;)
* [11:44] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: as part of my project we only touched as little of it as we could, in order to insert our new backend
* [11:44] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: we just redeliver, we have no way to confirm it, as transaction histoy is seems incomplete or maxed out, (seems to drop entries in the excel file when we have about 2-3 days worth of transactions
* [11:44] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: excel files have a row limit of 65536
* [11:45] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Wasn't CHTTP escrow going to be handling that?
* [11:45] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: morgaine: that's the end goal
* [11:45] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but the simulator will still be the weakest link
* [11:45] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lonetorus, I just redeliver too, I have no way of knowing if they were telling the truth
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: can't you check your own transaction history to see if you got L$ from the person?
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I guess you don't know what it's for
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: But....could help in some cases
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: (assuming you can actually download your own history)
* [11:47] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, if I say $3000 no copy item... and that person comes and claims they nevrer got it, i can confirm that they have payed, but have now way of telling if they genuenly didn't get or are scamming me for a second free copy
* [11:47] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: sell
* [11:47] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: which, well i dunno, excel files are incomlete, and we do well over 500 transactions a day, though excel files seem more complete when fetched for just 1-2 days, instead of generating for a longer time span, also seeing the description field missing sometimes, so we cnt see what the transaction was for)
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: oh....I see
* [11:48] [[User:lonetorus Habilis|lonetorus Habilis]]: im currently building our own vendor backend, to keep track of this stuff, but hearing money() is broken does not help
* [11:49] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lonetorus, its at peek concurency when you get those dreadful "transaction is stale" message
* [11:49] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah....if anything can go wrong, it totally will :-(
* [11:49] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: do those still happen?
* [11:50] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i have not seen them in couple of months i guess
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It's possible they are replaced with a different error message now
* [11:50] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: but transations still timeout from time to time when db load goeas overboard
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah, working on that too; eventually L$ will be

User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2009 Aug 20

2009-08-20T19:09:16Z

Which Linden: Created page with '* [11:06] Which Linden: yo, yo! * [11:06] Khamon Fate: oh these are nice bamboos * [11:06] Morgaine Dinova: ...'

* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yo, yo!
* [11:06] [[User:Khamon Fate|Khamon Fate]]: oh these are nice bamboos
* [11:06] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Who?
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: sorry I'm late, was wrestling with email
* [11:06] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: hello
* [11:06] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hiya Which :-)
* [11:07] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: h'lo :)
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: is Skills floating up for anyone else?
* [11:07] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: :o
* [11:07] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: still?
* [11:07] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: no
* [11:07] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Standing on the ground
* [11:07] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: working on clientside AO
* [11:07] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Standing now, junmped a sec ago
* [11:08] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Doing various AO poses
* [11:08] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: okies :)
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: perhaps my viewer dropped a packet, cause you floated right through the sign, on my screen
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: just snapped back
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: :-)
* [11:08] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: That happense a lot lately
* [11:08] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Never believe viewers, they lie ;-)
* [11:09] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I might have the interpoplate velocity setting wrong.
* [11:09] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: *interpolate
* [11:09] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: it's the "sim freeze" problem plaguing sl since about 1.25-6 or so
* [11:09] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: actually i WAS floating through the sign but then tp'ed back
* [11:09] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: x)
* [11:09] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: And I am really wearing all grey clothes.
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha ha
* [11:10] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: my sim regulary freezes from anywhere 2 sec to a full minute
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: reminds me of the trend where everyone was walking around as Ruth
* [11:10] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: We could have a costume party and all come as Ruth
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: hm, is there a JIRA for the freezing issue?
* [11:11] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: plenty of them
* [11:11] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: i bet it's the host swapping mem to disk
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: which one has some dates/times on it?
* [11:11] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: you should try ask a nice linden to look it up for you
* [11:11] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: It would be interesting to know if everyone in the sim sees it at the same time
* [11:11] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: people made freeze graph makers etc etc
* [11:11] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: is it on TPs?
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: (if you know this off the top of your head, I don't mean to use you as my personal JIRA search engine)
* [11:12] [[User:Manuel McWinnie|Manuel McWinnie]]: hello
* [11:12] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Moon regularly displays her graphing tool showing the freeze blips
* [11:12] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: (Wolfram Alpha eat your heart out)
* [11:12] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: there is one slightly misfilled in misc
* [11:12] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I try to avoid wearing mono HUDs when TPing
* [11:12] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: ah jira was down
* [11:12] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: 0 scripts here
* [11:12] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-2329
* [11:12] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: well office hour hud ^^
* [11:12] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Since switching to Emerald I do not need most of them
* [11:12] [[User:Daniel Voyager|Daniel Voyager]]: hey
* [11:13] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: there are plenty of others
* [11:13] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: i just replaced my AO hud with the clientside ao
* [11:13] [[User:Nicholas Hawthorne|Nicholas Hawthorne]]: hey
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hey there dragons
* [11:13] [[User:Nicholas Hawthorne|Nicholas Hawthorne]]: :)
* [11:14] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Here be dragons
* [11:14] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: for your sake, they better be carnivors lol
* [11:14] [[User:Daniel Voyager|Daniel Voyager]]: lol
* [11:14] [[User:Nicholas Hawthorne|Nicholas Hawthorne]]: xD
* [11:14] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: /mews
* [11:14] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: purrs
* [11:14] [[User:Nicholas Hawthorne|Nicholas Hawthorne]]: dan, i said a snow sim, not here :D
* [11:14] [[User:rfc3692 Static|rfc3692 Static]]: clientside ao? cool
* [11:14] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Soemthing on TV this morning about how the duckbilled donosaurs could eat redwood trees.
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: man, I love those graphs on that MISC-2329
* [11:14] [[User:Daniel Voyager|Daniel Voyager]]: we don't eat humans hehe
* [11:14] [[User:Nicholas Hawthorne|Nicholas Hawthorne]]: lol
* [11:15] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: which is a bamboo
* [11:15] [[User:Nicholas Hawthorne|Nicholas Hawthorne]]: we might smell you but not eat you
* [11:15] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which is only scared of pandas
* [11:15] [[User:Nicholas Hawthorne|Nicholas Hawthorne]]: xD
* [11:16] [[User:Nicholas Hawthorne|Nicholas Hawthorne]]: wishes his friend was online, he's the panda
* [11:16] [[User:rfc3692 Static|rfc3692 Static]]: lol
* [11:16] [[User:Nicholas Hawthorne|Nicholas Hawthorne]]: HahaAHAHaa!
* [11:16] [[User:Nicholas Hawthorne|Nicholas Hawthorne]]: you should see how we fly lol
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: show us!
* [11:16] [[User:rfc3692 Static|rfc3692 Static]]: skills, sorry my ignorance: there's somewhere a source to implement clientside ao? or u're writing it yourself? sorry for my english
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: lollerskates
* [11:17] [[User:Nicholas Hawthorne|Nicholas Hawthorne]]: no scripts sec
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oh....heh
* [11:17] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I thought that looked odd
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: scripts are back on
* [11:18] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: That's better
* [11:18] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: rfc3692 , sorry i have to run. it will show up in emerald soon :)
* [11:18] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: cool
* [11:18] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: laters :)
* [11:18] [[User:Nicholas Hawthorne|Nicholas Hawthorne]]: yeah,
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: see ya
* [11:19] [[User:rfc3692 Static|rfc3692 Static]]: cool, i can't wait for sources :)
* [11:19] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: whuchm ah found onw with pretty graphs https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4196
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oh very nice
* [11:20] [[User:Nicholas Hawthorne|Nicholas Hawthorne]]: lol
* [11:20] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: but in my experience it does not apepar freeze of 2-7 seconds for the whole sim on avatar rez, i get them for avatar derez, also for some other reasons i cannot determine
* [11:20] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: whole up to 60 sec of total 0 packets from the sim for everybody in the sim
* [11:21] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: removing mono scripts seems to be worse then adding them
* [11:21] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Have you tried this both with and without mono attachements?
* [11:21] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: oh
* [11:21] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: How about NO scripts?
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: did you try it without the simulator part?
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: :-P
* [11:22] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: well one thin everybody agrees upon, sim seems to stabilize after restart
* [11:22] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: lots of testing on beta grid... objects with lots of mono scripts cause a big impact when removed
* [11:22] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: for up to couple of days
* [11:22] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: then after day 3 freezes gradually get worse and worse
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: man, histograms, too!
* [11:22] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: which would indicate some kind of resource leak
* [11:23] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, its really cripling, people would do everything to help fix this
* [11:23] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Maybe a controlled experiment with Linden techs watching sim resource usage at the same time
* [11:23] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: imagine dead reckogning fun on a sim that freezes for 30 seconds
* [11:23] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: See if memory goes up or something
* [11:23] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: not to mention chat lag
* [11:23] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: we did that with vektor Moijito
* [11:24] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: ok
* [11:24] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: people drift left and right, they appear to be typing, transactions fail, all sorts of havoc
* [11:24] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Oh FFS, Infinity's off on another strawman in OGPX
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: heh these are tagged as "hard-to-fix" internally
* [11:24] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: "we have no clue what's going on here" :P
* [11:25] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Does LL ever do "code reviews"?
* [11:25] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: everyone move back to non-mono scipts and things get better
* [11:25] [[User:Nicholas Hawthorne|Nicholas Hawthorne]]: o.o
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Mojito: yes, nearly every commit is reviewed
* [11:25] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: one of your people is severely out of control and throwing straw men around with gusto at the IETF
* [11:25] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Or red herrings
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: damn yo, how that no one gets poked in the eye with a straw finger
* [11:26] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Total red herrings
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: *hope
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Twisted: really? You did the experiment of moving everything to non-mono?
* [11:26] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: yes
* [11:26] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Just unbelievable
* [11:26] [[User:rfc3692 Static|rfc3692 Static]]: sorry, got to go... have a nice day :)
* [11:26] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: same tests as compiled in mono... on the beta grid
* [11:27] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: no impact for removing 200+ LSL scripts, 0.8 sec impact for 200+ mono scripts
* [11:27] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: see ya rfc, thanks for stopping by
* [11:27] [[User:rfc3692 Static|rfc3692 Static]]: hope to see u soon, this is so interesting :)
* [11:27] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: mono does seem to be a factor... but its difficult to tell on this end
* [11:29] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: we only see the external effect... no idea what happens on server at that time
* [11:29] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: we are talking about MISC-2329 here, right?
* [11:29] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: its actually more https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4196 ... they are all related tho
* [11:29] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: OMG, 3 posts in a row, completely and willfully misrepresententing everything, and avoiding answering Carlo's simple question --- [http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ogpx/current/maillist.html]
* [11:29] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4196
* [11:30] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: that is written on entering, but the effect leaving is worse
* [11:30] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I see
* [11:30] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: an empty sim with no one entering or leaving doesn't seem to change over time
* [11:30] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: wonders what DEV-31771 says :P
* [11:30] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which, are you, personally, in favour of interoperation between virtual worlds of the SL type, using OGP, for example between SL and on or more of the Opensim-based grids?
* [11:31] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: one* or more
* [11:31] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: ... my trap-sense is tingling, so I'm not sure whether to answer or not :-)
* [11:31] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
* [11:32] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: It's quite a simple question. If that's a trap then the question is sensitive, and I'm surprised that it can be sensitive.
* [11:33] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: well openness seems to be on a retriet in the lab, ogp is going fast nowhere, viewer is no longer synced to exernal svn... the "m linden" effect in full swing, don't get your expectations high :D
* [11:33] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Well the, without implying anything else by this answer, then yes I am in favor of interoperation between SL-like virtual worlds
* [11:33] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Cool
* [11:35] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Well it's always been the understanding that that's what OGP was all about, in AWG, in MMOX, and then at the start of OGPX ... that LL was working towards interop between virtual worlds, although they wanted to narrow it down to interop between SL-like one, which is fine. Unfortunately, that's no longer the case.
* [11:35] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: So we're currently trying to puzzle out why.
* [11:35] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I haven't really been following the ogpx mailing list lately, it seems like there's a lot of inside baseball
* [11:37] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: its pretty useless to follow, week long back and forth what the word "grid" means and should it be used or not, and similar useless chatter instead of real work on the protocol specification
* [11:37] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Looks like lots of dithering about what everyone's intentions ar
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I guess this is why standardization efforts never take fewer than a million yers. :-)
* [11:39] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Getting back to the bugs that Latif brought up, it looks like we are trying to gather more metrics on them, so as to better detect them from our end
* [11:39] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Easy to summarize: Joshua has written a rather good charter for the group, good in the sense of highly readable. It very clearly defines the scope of the OGPX workgroup to be that of creating a protocol that allow integrating single region servers into a single virtual world. In other words, it's a protocol for growing SL, from LL's perspective. It does not deal at all with communication between more than one such worlds.
* [11:39] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: The scope is very precise, so there is no room for doubt, as the charter stands.
* [11:40] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I think that could be just a word discussion Morgaine, insofar as we refer to "the web" even though it is not actually a single entity
* [11:40] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Now we're trying to get that stated clearly, and Infinity is throwing red herrings and straw men around all over the place avoiding the question.
* [11:41] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: No Which, this is a simple question: will the scope of the OGP that the group defines deal with interop between more than one virtual world. Easy
* [11:41] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I guess I'll end my discussion of that topic now, I think getting into it would consume too much of my time
* [11:41] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Can't be fudged.
* [11:41] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: but what is the argument with the direction its going Morgaine? couldn't opensim follow the same protocol and thus work with SL?
* [11:42] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Twisted: there is no argument with the direction. Nobody is arguing with LL's direction, we're letting LL set it. But we want it to be clear.
* [11:42] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, I certainly do hope soulution is found fast, because its getting worse, and its really crippling popular places (ie. those with high avatar turnaround)
* [11:43] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: It's not a matter of shame to decide not to interop between multiple virtual worlds, it's simply a choice. It should not be hidden or obscured.
* [11:44] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Back to Latif's topic.
* [11:44] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Morg, my attitude is, enjoy the party while it lasts, M's being bent on SL "business case" is going to be its undoing, I personally plan to have fun while its still afloat :P
* [11:45] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: yeah, keep the data coming, exact times and dates, trying to find ways of reproingi t
* [11:45] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Latif: I agree it's all falling apart.
* [11:45] [[User:DrFran Babcock|DrFran Babcock]]: listens.
* [11:45] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, I can call you to my sim after its being up for 2 weeks or so, so you can observe the effect first hand
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Often with bugs like these, there is a period of thrashing while everyone tries just to repro it in a closed environment, followed by a flash of insight in which everything is understood and fixed
* [11:46] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: two factors convreging seem to bring the worse of it... sim uptime + grid concurrency, ie. popular sim that has been up for 3 weeks + weekend = disaster
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: hm well that could be useful, but what would be more useful would be some way of quickly and reliably bringing a sim into that state from scratch
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: bots may be a way to do that?
* [11:47] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: could be, i actually wanted to try this on aditi, but never gor around to it
* [11:47] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: have like 20 bots constatly teleport in and out of a sim, with a lot of prim scripted attachmetns
* [11:48] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: hi hi
* [11:48] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: (been to busy figuring out how to make pretty bots with libomv) :P
* [11:48] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: but now that's done
* [11:48] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: late due thunderstorms messing with my net
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: cool!
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I wish we had thunderstorms here
* [11:50] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: my sim gets about 20 unique visitor per hour, and its performance goes down the tubes in about a week... so its slow
* [11:50] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: and difficult to reproduce
* [11:51] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: i think you can reproduce it just adding and removing objects with scripts in them Latif
* [11:51] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i think prospero had a look once, the sim wasn't too bloated, process size was big but not out of control
* [11:51] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: we see the performance drop quickly in the sandboxes all the time
* [11:52] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I don't think there's a repro problem at all, since the freezes have been demonstrated at numerous office hours. And Periapse has even said he thinks it quite likely that there's a rogue blocking network call that shouldn't be blocking associated with the freezes. What it needs is a dev's attention.
* [11:53] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: well SVC-4196 has been brought up on many office hours, it got 150 votes, dunno what else to do
* [11:53] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: We need some sort of speciality which is not exactly a dev per se but more of a "repro engineer"
* [11:53] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I guess that's "QA" in a sense
* [11:54] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: Andrew/Simon seem to think it has to do with more happening in frame then theres time for
* [11:54] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: for 30-60sec?
* [11:54] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Man, lots of different hypotheses
* [11:54] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: that's one long frame
* [11:54] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah that doesn't really add up
* [11:54] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: yes, but thats where they worked on the max number of objects that can be rez'd as that kills a sim quick
* [11:55] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: More hypotheses aren't needed. Just sit a dev down with Latif and Moon and others and all the repros are there --- just needs an LL dev sitting on the sim side with an analyser.
* [11:55] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: someone was testing in cordova with single objects with 600 mono scripts in them...
* [11:56] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: they said they were trying to figure how to keep a region down...
* [11:56] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: was not a good person
* [11:56] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: imagines a big oscilloscope-looing "sim analyzer"
* [11:56] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: they did succeed a couple time for up to 30 minutes
* [11:57] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: sim shoud log these events if fram started more than a second ago > log
* [11:57] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: frame*
* [11:57] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I am sure that they do
* [11:58] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: But....that doesn't tell you why the frame was long
* [11:58] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So what we need sim-side is an equivalent of those time things that tell you which subsystem took how much frame time in the viewer
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oh we actually kinda do have that alreaduy
* [12:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but it's not very granular
* [12:01] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: if a frame can take 30 seconds or more, somehting goes horribly wrong there
* [12:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: totally
* [12:01] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: finny thing is, sim is not very loaded
* [12:01] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: my sim show .99 time dilation, and then it goies into freeze for 5 sec
* [12:02] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: and so on
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: there are probably a bunch of places where operations that usually are quick are not broken across frame boundaries when they get slow
* [12:03] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i suspect some sync call to a central service, as it does sim to get worse when there is a lot of people online
* [12:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: right....could be!
* [12:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'll add that as a theory to help the debuggers
* [12:05] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i bet simple strace -p on an affected sim while this is happening could be revealing :P
* [12:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: could be overwhelming :-)
* [12:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So, I should get lunch, thanks all for coming and having an interesting discussion!
* [12:05] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: if you see it block for a long time.. that would be a clue :P
* [12:06] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: thanks, cya
* [12:06] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: have a nice day which :D
* [12:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: See you next week!

User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2009 Aug 6

2009-08-06T19:01:15Z

Which Linden: Created page with '* [11:00] ATechwolf Foxclaw: Hi which * [11:00] Which Linden: hey there! * [11:00] ATechwolf Foxclaw...'

* [11:00] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: Hi which
* [11:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hey there!
* [11:00] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: Hmm...not many here today
* [11:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: the loading screen image should totally become the Snowglobe app icon
* [11:01] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: lol
* [11:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: it is like way cool
* [11:02] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: They need to come up wiht a few new login screens. The ones they got are poor and low rez.
* [11:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: for snowglobe, or in general?
* [11:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: cause, I was recently observing how the loading screens are pretty damn decent for the mainline viewers
* [11:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'm glad someone's paying attention to that aspect of the user experience
* [11:04] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: The login screen is just the client loading up a web page. Its just snowglobe I think points in a different web page.
* [11:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah
* [11:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: [http://secondlife.com/app/login/] is the "normal" one
* [11:04] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: better created ones are needed.
* [11:04] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: Perhaps a few around Zindra? lol
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: with little censor bars all over everything :-)
* [11:05] [[User:Shockwave Plasma|Shockwave Plasma]]: and a note that says Here be Dragons
* [11:05] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: lol
* [11:05] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: Some Linden needs to sneak that one in
* [11:06] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: Heck, if manament wants to make a few dollors, allow creative ads there. It would be better. ;-)
* [11:07] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Alopha :-)
* [11:07] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: And Aloha too :-)
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hi there morgaine, missed you last week
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: nice hat
* [11:07] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Slept through last week, hehe. And nearly missed it again :-(
* [11:08] [[User:Shockwave Plasma|Shockwave Plasma]]: I thinght it was an alternative to Asprin
* [11:08] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: lol
* [11:08] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Keeps the rain off
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: anyone been following the discussions on eventletdev?
* [11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: been pretty active lately
* [11:09] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: Can't see the hat. Text only here.
* [11:09] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: ATech's sitting on the tiny seat, how uncivilized :-(
* [11:10] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Woot!
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: text only SL client?
* [11:10] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: yes. Radegast.
* [11:10] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Thanks ATech :-))
* [11:10] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: I think "HD - Classic Balck Leather Couth" was the largert one?
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hah, so you have to specify where to sit based on names?
* [11:11] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: Wich, very handy when you dn't want to waste bandwith with textures.
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah, I imagine, my laptop's getting pretty hot right now
* [11:12] [[User:Shockwave Plasma|Shockwave Plasma]]: I was using sleek for a while, until it made my inventory read only Grrrr
* [11:12] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Most people put their coffee mug on the table :P
* [11:13] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hi Dahlia :-)
* [11:13] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: hi :)
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: good day!
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: do we want to talk about eventlet today, or perhaps some other topic??
* [11:14] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: is eventlet underclued
* [11:15] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Are there any timings available for eventlet?
* [11:15] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: What or who is eventlet?
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: [http://eventlet.net]
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: timings? what do you mean?
* [11:16] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Speed and overhead benchmarks / tests / measurements
* [11:17] [[User:Hermit Barber|Hermit Barber]]: Hi Dahlia.
* [11:17] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: so now that I've trained myself to think event-driven, I dont have to?
* [11:17] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: Hi Hermit :)
* [11:17] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: it says here its quick.... and BlooKitty, you are short so dont worry about overhead
* [11:17] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: lol
* [11:17] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: lol
* [11:18] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hiya Hermie :-)
* [11:18] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: Hya Hermit!
* [11:18] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: I welcome your input about how to develop such benchmarks, and what to compare them to -- I'd be interested in setting up continuous builds that ran them every time there was a change and bitched about regressions
* [11:18] [[User:Hermit Barber|Hermit Barber]]: Hi everyone else rezzing slowly and not showing on the snowglobe minimap until rezzed.
* [11:18] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: oh, that's a good idea.
* [11:19] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: BlooKitty, remember the FPS problem we had here? you should try it with shadows on
* [11:19] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: I think the minimap gets it's avatar info from a different message than normal avies
* [11:19] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Uh oh, bad?
* [11:19] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: yah I can make a pot of coffee between frames
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: do shadows work on the mac yet?
* [11:20] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: rollerskating is out of the question
* [11:21] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: uhoh
* [11:21] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: well Enus is setting up all manner of tests using PyOGP, and is very interested in regression testing. Perhaps once there's a framework into which we can slot tests, we could add some for eventlet.
* [11:22] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: what is LL using eventlet for?
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I think the standard in the python world for continuous builds is buildbot
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: We use it for a bunch of things; server code, misc scripts, PyOGP uses it
* [11:23] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: "networky things" encapsulates it best
* [11:24] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Not in the sim though, since that's C++. What kind of networky areas?
* [11:24] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: so eventlet rather than twisted?
* [11:24] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: or with it?
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: no twisted, we have some folks here who have used twisted in the past, but they're pretty happy with not having to use it again
* [11:24] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: lol
* [11:24] [[User:Elric Ember|Elric Ember]]: This may be of interest: [http://redsolo.blogspot.com/2007/11/hudson-embraces-python.html]
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: networky stuff like ; proxying requests to the proper inventory host
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: god shouting to the entire grid
* [11:25] [[User:Elric Ember|Elric Ember]]: One CI server to rule them all
* [11:25] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hehe
* [11:25] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: It's official then. God uses eventlet.
* [11:25] [[User:Elric Ember|Elric Ember]]: Can simplify maintenance aspects
* [11:25] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: so a coroutine is like a thread?
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yes, another term for coroutines is "green threads"
* [11:26] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: oh ok
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: it is like a thread but it doesn't involve any preemption, so you don't have to mess around with locks and all the other things that make threads horrible
* [11:26] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: awwww BlooooKitty
* [11:27] [[User:Elric Ember|Elric Ember]]: Does python implement coroutines as threads or within them?
* [11:27] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Mealea: that would be me ;-)
* [11:27] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: yep!
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Python itself has no coroutine implementation; eventlet uses the greenlet library, or, runs on stackless
* [11:28] [[User:Elric Ember|Elric Ember]]: ah ok
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: greenlets are pretty orthogonal to threads
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: it is not advisable to mess around with threads and coroutines together too much because of risk of head asplode :-)
* [11:29] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: python threads suck anyway
* [11:29] [[User:Elric Ember|Elric Ember]]: : D I bet
* [11:30] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: do any of you have any "networky" applications?
* [11:30] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: networky?
* [11:30] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: a few, but I'm no expert
* [11:30] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Heh, all languages suck in that area, and are desperately trying to catch up with Erlang. And failing miserably at it. :P
* [11:30] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: well maybe not "Networky", but networky
* [11:31] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: my english parser is not up to task today lol
* [11:31] [[User:Shockwave Plasma|Shockwave Plasma]]: couldn't progarm her way out of a paper bag, even with a handful of Contructers
* [11:32] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: what does it mean? "networky app"
* [11:32] [[User:Dahlia Trimble's|Dahlia Trimble's]]: "select()" manual page has tattered corners
* [11:32] [[User:Elric Ember|Elric Ember]]: Latif: chatty or talks alot
* [11:33] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i think libomv counts then lol
* [11:33] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: libomv would probably qualify lol
* [11:33] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hahaha
* [11:33] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: on Python threads: [http://www.dabeaz.com/python/GIL.pdf]
* [11:33] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: definitely
* [11:33] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yeah, we're pretty talky alright :P
* [11:33] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: or try opensim ;)
* [11:33] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: uhm, that too
* [11:33] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so pyogp is kind of the python equivalent of libomv; and it uses eventlet
* [11:34] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: it'd be lovely if we could get coroutine-based networking into the C++ code; I think there were some aborted attempts a few years ago
* [11:35] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: dahlia, btw. i rewrote the baker, have a look when you get time... i kept it managed image, didn't go system.drawing route as you suggested
* [11:35] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, c# event handling is perfect for those sorts of things, have you every played with mono?
* [11:35] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: kk
* [11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I've not used C# at all, Latif
* [11:36] [[User:Elric Ember|Elric Ember]]: Someone might've written a C++ implementation as part of their thesis. The IEEE archives might have something
* [11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: what's so cool about the event handling?
* [11:37] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Elric: there's definitely C++ coroutine libraries out there
* [11:37] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: inline delegates
* [11:37] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: enus was able to connect 300 bots to the grid using libomv from a single laptop
* [11:37] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: it performs well
* [11:37] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: inline delegates are pretty simple to work with
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hah, as Morgaine would say, where are the benchmarks??? :-P
* [11:38] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: which, is simply beutiful :)
* [11:38] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: libomv uses them a lot
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hm, the thing about evnetlet is you don't need delegates at all; you just write code as if it were blocking
* [11:38] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: If Radegast get multi-account support, I may use that to see how many alts I can log in at once. hehe
* [11:38] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, I would not want that
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: inline delegates are certainly better, but it's still "callback hell"
* [11:38] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: Opensim uses packet pools and threadpools, kinda painful but seems to handle a lot of traffic
* [11:39] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: why callback hell?
* [11:39] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: its an inline callback, kind of acts as a blocking request
* [11:40] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: maybe I'm not understanding inline dllegates
* [11:40] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: in c# I could in any class/control, whereever put GridClient.OnNetworkConnect += MyFunc; then myFunc(blah blah) { Log("I am now connected") }
* [11:40] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so myfunc is an inline delegate?
* [11:40] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: no its not in this case
* [11:40] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oh, so how would that be written with inline d;legates?
* [11:40] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: but... i can have 20 functions subscribe to this event
* [11:41] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: man I cannot seem to spell that word delegates
* [11:41] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: GridClient.OnNetworkConnect = delegate() { Log("I am connected"); }
* [11:41] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: +=
* [11:41] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha, right, ok, so it's an anonymous function basically, right?
* [11:41] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: so you can add as many delegates as you want
* [11:42] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: for an event
* [11:42] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yes, but it handles adding many of them automagically
* [11:42] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: theres another form which waits on an inline event
* [11:42] [[User:Elric Ember|Elric Ember]]: Which: That link is a great read. Thank you
* [11:42] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: cant remember the syntax offhand
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so the way you'd write this using coroutine based networking is GridClient.connect(); Log("I am connected");
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: if you want a bunch of callbacks (which is, btw, a very uncommon use case in my experience), just do a for loop
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: for callback in callbacks { callback() }
* [11:44] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: the common use case is way shorter, and the multi-callback use case is clearer, too
* [11:44] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: if you are making a gui app., its quite common to have many many delegates invoked per single event
* [11:44] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah, GUI programming is pretty different than network programming
* [11:44] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i want to disable buttons, change caption text, close logs, etc etc when i get disconnected from the grid for istance
* [11:45] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: GUI programming makes more sense when written event-driven
* [11:45] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but networking is not thus
* [11:45] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: network does too, especially for SL protocol
* [11:45] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: a common use case is "make one http request, then, based on the results, make one or two more"
* [11:46] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: GridClient.Self.OnImReceived += do stuff
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: i think we're approaching this from different sides
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: definitely the GUI code that responds to events should be callback-based where appropriate
* [11:46] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: RequestLogout(); if (!logoutEvent.WaitOne(Client.Settings.LOGOUT_TIMEOUT, false)) Shutdown(DisconnectType.NetworkTimeout);
* [11:47] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: theres an example
* [11:47] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: All a bit pathetic compared to Erlang processes, where you can happily run millions in parallel if you have the memory. That's one area in which all other languages are wannabes.
* [11:47] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: erlang is written in erlang then i suppose, not is some other pathet wannabe language as C?
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but it's much easier to write stuff as "result1 = httprequest(url); if result1.foo: httprequest(url2) else: httprequest(url3); httprequest(url4)
* [11:48] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: with callbacks the above snippet would be...ugh, more than I want to type
* [11:48] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: lol
* [11:48] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: it all pays the rent I guess ;)
* [11:48] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: heh :-)
* [11:49] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: inline delegates are better, though, for sure, because they're at least closures
* [11:49] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: in C++ you have to pack all your state up into a struct and stick it in the callback object
* [11:49] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: well writting event driven code seems strange at first but i think its perfect for implementing protocols like SL protocol
* [11:50] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: there are hundreds of different things that can happen
* [11:50] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: SL™ protocol is all event driven anyway
* [11:50] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yes
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I think the SL protocol was originally developed under the constraints of C++, now that we're moving to capabilities it will start looking less and less event-driven
* [11:51] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: event queue is also perfect for implemeting it firing off events
* [11:51] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: gotta run... tc all :)
* [11:51] [[User:Elric Ember|Elric Ember]]: tc
* [11:52] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: did your message queueing evaluation go beyond that document you showed us? Any final conclusions?
* [11:52] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: libomv is basically a network layer that gets and decodes udp and caps messages, and fires off events that your app them might want to decide to handle
* [11:52] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Cyu Dahlia
* [11:52] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: such us OnInstantMessageReceived or on OnLoggedIn
* [11:52] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: well we've ben trying to come up with architectures that get around the limitations of the various packages, but in general, no, no progress
* [11:52] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: nods
* [11:53] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: yeah, certainly client libs that use liomv should be event-driven, but libomv itself might be cleaner and easier to maintain if it were written using coroutine-based networking
* [11:54] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: it could... we implement it using c# ThreadPools for packet capturing, decoding, which is more in line how you would implement it in c/c++
* [11:55] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oh yeah, I bet C# threads are decent for that sort of thing
* [11:56] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yes, and they are easy to program compared to say pthreads... the runtime takes care of assiging them to different processors, etc, which is also configurable
* [11:57] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah, the only advantage coroutines have over well-implemented language threads is that they are somewhat faster
* [11:57] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: (if well-implemented themselves)
* [11:58] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yes, thread startup/teardown does have significat cost
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I guess we agree! :-)
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Time for me to head for lunch.
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Thanks for your time and thoughts
* [11:59] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hehe, take care Which
* [11:59] [[User:Elric Ember|Elric Ember]]: For performance, logging when context switches or GIL contentions occur could help
* [11:59] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Cya Which
* [11:59] [[User:Elric Ember|Elric Ember]]: tc
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Have a wonderful day!

Eventlet/Documentation

2009-07-31T22:31:05Z

Which Linden: Redirecting to eventlet.net

This page has been superseded by the content at http://eventlet.net/doc

Eventlet

2009-07-31T22:29:00Z

Which Linden: Uhhhh....plain old http

Eventlet

2009-07-31T22:24:59Z

Which Linden: eventlet.net supersedes this page

User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2009 July 30

2009-07-30T19:06:50Z

Which Linden: Created page with '* [11:02] reddot99 Republic: he which * [11:02] reddot99 Republic: hey * [11:03] Which Linden: good...'

* [11:02] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: he which
* [11:02] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: hey
* [11:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: good morning
* [11:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: How are y'all?
* [11:03] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: after noon here but thanks :p
* [11:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: it's always a pleasure to meet people who are in different time zones
* [11:04] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: well, im only on the east coast, not that far :p
* [11:04] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: do you know if andrew is online?
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I do not know
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I guess not?
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ....and of course in SL time it's late afternoon early evening
* [11:06] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: i just dont want to wait 6 hours to find out about a bug, lol
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Any more L$ issues, techwolf?
* [11:06] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: for some reason i think he's not totally here,
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Heh
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hi Aimee!
* [11:07] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: lo :)
* [11:08] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: OMG, no tiny bloo kitty? The world must be ending
* [11:08] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: she's offline. OMG OMG OMG
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh the humanity
* [11:08] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: the sky is falling!
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Perhaps there was a power outage
* [11:09] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: felinity in that case i think
* [11:09] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: I don't think Morgaine is the type to let a little thing like lack of power stop her doing anything lol
* [11:10] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: asset server could be messing up, or she'soverslept
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh the asset server...what can't we blame it for?
* [11:11] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: it needs rebranding
* [11:11] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: bad government outside sl,
* [11:12] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: how about ... the Repository of 'Stuff'
* [11:12] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: said in the voice of Jeremy Clarkson
* [11:13] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: hmm, not sure he's known outside the UK thinking about it lol
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I know who he is
* [11:13] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: :)
* [11:13] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: yeah, it is slightly too easy to make fun of...(cough "asshat server" cough)
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: He is kind of a jerk, but that's also his schtick
* [11:13] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: [http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/joann_kuchera_morin_tours_the_allosphere.html]
* [11:13] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: yeah, he's a deliberate jerk
* [11:14] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: wonders if there's also a GoodbyeSphere
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Has anyone else had any issues with L$ since last week? The entire grid is now using web services. Haven't seen anything go more poorly than usual, but just checking with y'all to see if there's anything we might have missed.
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: (anyone besides techwolf that is)
* [11:15] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: nope, not seen anything at all
* [11:15] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: nope
* [11:16] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: is it still possible to inject malicious javascript into the transaction history? ^.^
* [11:16] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: nvm off topic :)
* [11:16] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: other than being charged twice for uploads it seems ok
* [11:17] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: but thats another story with the legacy uploads etc
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Skills: agh, hopefully not
* [11:17] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I dont think it charges twice. It just tells you twice
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh and the uploads is just a duplicate notification
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: it's not actually a double charge
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: what mojito said
* [11:17] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: didn't happen to me
* [11:17] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I watched my balance, and it only went down 10L
* [11:18] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I think it's a hybrid viewer/sim issue
* [11:18] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: coolies
* [11:18] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Since the sim sends the viewer a message that says "hey I did this transaction for you" and simultaneously the viewer asks for a balance update
* [11:18] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: though, i 've not done any transactions since last time, except listing a few things on xstreet, freebies sell well, but artillery certianly doesnt... sorry rambling,
* [11:19] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: oh and which, i've got a sort of followup question to lastweeks about the how long account inventories last...
* [11:20] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: how long do sim backups stay around, after the sim is removed from the server rack, or however you do it,
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Heh, ask away, I'm not sure if I'll be able to answer, again. :-)
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh I have no idea
* [11:21] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: is it possible to return a sim that was around say a year ago, but isnt today?
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Maybe? No idea! Seems like it would be wasteful to keep that much data around so probably not
* [11:22] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: thats a long time :o
* [11:22] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Too long ago, even the data formats may have changed
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Possibly, yeah
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So....I don't really have a technical topic today....aside from the L$ thing
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: anyone got anything they want to talk about and I can answer?
* [11:26] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: lol
* [11:26] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: ugh i need to get rodney to remove that voice announcement prim lol
* [11:27] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Oh, here is an odd one
* [11:28] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: 6months ago I bough a "Witcher HUD", whicn amon other thngs does remote TP and remoate scanning
* [11:28] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Suddenly today it acts funny.
* [11:28] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Recalling a TP point at ground level, and step through it, I end up 600m in the air
* [11:28] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: The correct destuination was also at ground level, in the same sim.
* [11:28] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: That has always worked flawlessly
* [11:29] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: has it worked inbetween the times?
* [11:29] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Last time I used it was maybe just before the latest server upgrades.
* [11:29] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Certainly worked in 1.26
* [11:29] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Like in June
* [11:30] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: But it seems to work some places and noth others.
* [11:30] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Eh....that's weird
* [11:30] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: does it reproduce this everytime you try it?
* [11:30] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I need to check server versions
* [11:30] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Well, in one particular sim it does
* [11:30] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: It has one command to memorize a place. Then you can later recall that spot
* [11:30] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Man those words "one particular sim" are both scary and relieving to a developer.
* [11:30] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: were there banlines or no entry parcels between you and the target?
* [11:31] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: It rezzes an effect for the portal , which you touch, and it zips you to the other end.
* [11:31] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: nope
* [11:31] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: btw simstate backups:
* [11:31] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: [11:30
* [11:30] [[User:Linden: most|Linden: most]]: sims have states going back a year.
* [11:31] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: And I have rez perms
* [11:31] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: And script perms
* [11:31] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Another clue - the distance scan times out, like it can not rez the remote scanners
* [11:32] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: lsl cant detect if you in particullar do, it only knows if everyone does
* [11:32] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh, that makes sense about the simstates. We must have some use case for that or else it wouldn't be worth bothering with such effort curating the simstates.
* [11:32] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I will go get server versions. brb
* [11:33] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: which did you see that notice about the Qwaq simstate file format?
* [11:33] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: skills, can you see about sims that are currently nonexistant?
* [11:33] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Sai: no, didn't see it
* [11:33] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Where should I look?
* [11:33] [[User:Dicewolf Aeon|Dicewolf Aeon]]: i came to steal your Linden bear :P
* [11:33] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: not sure i guess best would be to contact support and have them look it up
* [11:33] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh it's thievery we're about today is it?
* [11:34] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Ok hold on
* [11:34] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Both at 1.27.1 server. Works one place, not the other
* [11:34] [[User:Dicewolf Aeon|Dicewolf Aeon]]: :P
* [11:34] [[User:Dicewolf Aeon|Dicewolf Aeon]]: i am tryin to collect
* [11:34] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I have IMed the maker of the HUD.
* [11:34] [[User:Dicewolf Aeon|Dicewolf Aeon]]: accepted your inventory offer.
* [11:34] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: gave you Croquet persistent world file.
* [11:34] [[User:Dicewolf Aeon|Dicewolf Aeon]]: hey witch
* [11:34] [[User:Dicewolf Aeon|Dicewolf Aeon]]: what color you like
* [11:34] [[User:Dicewolf Aeon|Dicewolf Aeon]]: Blue red or green?
* [11:34] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: How about blue?
* [11:34] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: anyone else want a bear?
* [11:35] [[User:Dicewolf Aeon|Dicewolf Aeon]]: gave you Love Glasses Blue.
* [11:35] [[User:Dicewolf Aeon|Dicewolf Aeon]]: i give all the linden the glasses i made
* [11:35] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: oo, me me!
* [11:35] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Anything special about these bears?
* [11:35] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: mmight as well take one, i can get your uuid from it i bet :p
* [11:35] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: cute!
* [11:35] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I'll take one
* [11:35] [[User:Dicewolf Aeon|Dicewolf Aeon]]: ^.-
* [11:36] [[User:Dicewolf Aeon|Dicewolf Aeon]]: thanks witch
* [11:36] [[User:Dicewolf Aeon|Dicewolf Aeon]]: i gotta collect any bear i can
* [11:36] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: accepted your inventory offer.
* [11:36] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: accepted your inventory offer.
* [11:36] [[User:JayR Cela|JayR Cela]]: accepted your inventory offer.
* [11:36] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: ty :)
* [11:36] [[User:Dicewolf Aeon|Dicewolf Aeon]]: lets se... i go dan, Cg, Alexa, Dj and yours :P
* [11:36] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Hey JayR
* [11:36] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: accepted your inventory offer.
* [11:36] [[User:JayR Cela|JayR Cela]]: ty Which
* [11:36] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: thanks
* [11:36] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: I'll swap your bear for mine Which :D
* [11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: heh, enjoy
* [11:37] [[User:JayR Cela|JayR Cela]]: hi there SAi / hello everyone :_)
* [11:37] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: there is a linden bear catagory on xstreet
* [11:37] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hi jayr
* [11:37] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: It doesnt have evil scripts in it does it? lol
* [11:37] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ah sai, every practical
* [11:37] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: *ever
* [11:37] [[User:Dicewolf Aeon|Dicewolf Aeon]]: keep the shades which
* [11:37] [[User:Dicewolf Aeon|Dicewolf Aeon]]: :P
* [11:37] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: now scripts are on
* [11:38] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: oh hey, scripts turned on,
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but no, nothing in my bear, though that would be hilarious
* [11:38] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Where is that voice coming from?
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: the voice is from the neighboring build
* [11:38] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: ok
* [11:38] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: haha my bad
* [11:38] [[User:Dicewolf Aeon|Dicewolf Aeon]]: :P
* [11:38] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: i built that for rodney
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It's, ah, kind of surreal
* [11:39] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: its really annoying after some time i guess
* [11:39] [[User:Dicewolf Aeon|Dicewolf Aeon]]: hey Which know any online Admins?
* [11:39] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: yay, more uuids for the linden online checker
* [11:39] [[User:Dicewolf Aeon|Dicewolf Aeon]]: Lindens :P
* [11:39] [[User:Dicewolf Aeon|Dicewolf Aeon]]: so i can steal their bear :P
* [11:39] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: How does the linden online checker work?
* [11:39] [[User:Dicewolf Aeon|Dicewolf Aeon]]: i usualy just type Linden in the searc h
* [11:39] [[User:Dicewolf Aeon|Dicewolf Aeon]]: and go thru am, see whos online
* [11:39] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: [11:39
* [11:39] [[User:Info HUD|Info HUD]]: V 3.0.7: Online: Amber, Data, Dee, Minerva, *Patch, *Michael
* [11:39] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: lsl asking dataserver ?
* [11:39] [[User:Dicewolf Aeon|Dicewolf Aeon]]: but it takes like 30 mins
* [11:39] [[User:Dicewolf Aeon|Dicewolf Aeon]]: Oooh.... I need one of thoughs!
* [11:40] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: asking dataserver yes,
* [11:40] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: btw we are going to implement an lsl bridge into greenlife emerald
* [11:40] [[User:Dicewolf Aeon|Dicewolf Aeon]]: i'll see yall later
* [11:40] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: so you can do do things like see online status of everyone
* [11:40] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: gave you linden.
* [11:40] [[User:Dicewolf Aeon|Dicewolf Aeon]]: ty for the bear
* [11:40] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: thanks for the script
* [11:41] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: still have to check if thats ok with the tos
* [11:41] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: its fairly basic, and it is legal,
* [11:41] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: yup think so too
* [11:41] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh I guess we just have an LSL call to see if someone's online. :-)
* [11:42] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: it could be used for more then that
* [11:42] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: yes lots of things
* [11:42] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: "clientside" flight assist
* [11:42] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: dataserver access
* [11:42] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: can check payment info
* [11:42] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: yup
* [11:42] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: online status on every profile
* [11:43] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: i was refering to the script i gavve which :p
* [11:43] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: ahh
* [11:43] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: not sure about the lsl bridge thing though,
* [11:43] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: same thing basically :)
* [11:44] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: would be best if left to the labs i think,
* [11:44] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Really, you can call llrequestagentdata with a flag to see if someone has payment info?
* [11:44] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: yes
* [11:45] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I guess that's already on your profile so it's not secret
* [11:45] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: and also it tells if it's used or not
* [11:45] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Interesting....I didn't know about this
* [11:45] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'm kind of an LSL n00b.
* [11:46] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: [11:45
* secondlife:///app/agent/2d176a9d-cc99-439d-9fde-f951eee8aaad/about
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'm always surprised by how vast the API we produce is
* [11:46] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: lol, most others are surprised by its limitations as well,
* [11:46] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: It reveals which HUDs I am wearing? wow
* [11:46] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: no, not which huds
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hm tha language flag would be useful for making localized vendors and stuff
* [11:47] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Oh, that is YOUR HUD. Twisted, etc
* [11:47] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: yeah, lol
* [11:47] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: you could do that with the viewer though
* [11:47] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: you could, bu a vender isnt a veiwer
* [11:47] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: find out object names on hud attachment points etc
* [11:47] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: and you already can call that up forthe most part
* [11:48] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: but yeah, a lot more info is availbe to a veiwer then most folks realize
* [11:49] [[User:Icra Revnik|Icra Revnik]]: hello
* [11:49] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: hey,
* [11:50] [[User:Icra Revnik|Icra Revnik]]: can someone help me?
* [11:50] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: what with?
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hi icra
* [11:50] [[User:Icra Revnik|Icra Revnik]]: hellp
* [11:50] [[User:Icra Revnik|Icra Revnik]]: hello
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: What is the problem?
* [11:50] [[User:Icra Revnik|Icra Revnik]]: i have build a villa
* [11:51] [[User:Icra Revnik|Icra Revnik]]: it was trans untill i have link it
* [11:51] [[User:Icra Revnik|Icra Revnik]]: no i have unlinked it
* [11:51] [[User:Icra Revnik|Icra Revnik]]: and all of the prims are no trans
* [11:51] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: you linked it to a no trans object,
* [11:51] [[User:Icra Revnik|Icra Revnik]]: *now
* [11:52] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: not sure why it might have reverted
* [11:52] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh man this question is totally out of my area of expertise
* [11:52] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: gotta run, laters :)
* [11:52] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: has no idea about permissions
* [11:52] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Thanks for dropping by Skills :-)
* [11:52] [[User:Icra Revnik|Icra Revnik]]: can you give me a contact that is in that area pls?
* [11:52] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: are there scripts in the prims by any chance?
* [11:53] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: try a support ticket
* [11:53] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I suppose you could also try asking around in a sandbox area, I imagine people building there are pretty knowledgeable
* [11:54] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: goes afk as though anyone carezzzzzzzzzzz...
* [11:54] [[User:Icra Revnik|Icra Revnik]]: ok
* [11:54] [[User:Icra Revnik|Icra Revnik]]: ty
* [11:54] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I care, Sai! America cares!
* [11:56] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: is it possible to convince a linden to change permissions on something a person created on a nother account? bi reason i've been asking is over a sim a friend had made and then they left sl, and they have no mod no trans backups on an alt that survived, any chance those could get made full permissions, if they were to prove they were the same person?
* [11:57] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: yay for two chat bars
* [11:57] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: reddot: you're going to laugh but my suggestion is to file a support ticket :-)
* [11:57] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oh you didn't mean to ask me?
* [11:58] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: asked if its possible to convince a linden :p plus the support ticket system is very close to useless for a basic account with the exception of dealing with governance issues
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It's possible to convince a Linden of anything, given enough butter
* [11:59] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: so i gotta go find a huge thing of butter then
* [12:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: But in general I think we'd be pretty wary. It only takes one scammer with bad intentions to scare off everyone from doing this sort of service for everyone
* [12:00] [[User:JayR Cela|JayR Cela]]: *waves* byeee everyone / i gotta run / c-ya's:_)
* [12:01] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: well, regarding the butter, could i pay for a prenium account with butter?
* [12:02] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: just being silly now :p
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Heh.....we're working on a new butter-based payment system
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: PayCream
* [12:02] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: lol,
* [12:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I should probably run too. Thanks for stopping by!
* [12:03] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: see ya which,
* [12:03] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: lol
* [12:03] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: dont slip on any butter lying about,
* [12:03] [[User:Dicewolf Aeon|Dicewolf Aeon]]: accepted your inventory offer.
* [12:03] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: bye!
* [12:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Peace!

User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2009 July 22

2009-07-23T19:04:46Z

Which Linden: Created page with '* [11:03] Phantom Ninetails: Oh hey Which * [11:03] Which Linden: hey there! * [11:04] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetai...'

* [11:03] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: Oh hey Which
* [11:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hey there!
* [11:04] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: I must have sat down right inside your landmark
* [11:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah I guess so!
* [11:04] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: Heh.
* [11:05] [[User:Bau Ur|Bau Ur]]: hehe Which, I do love that avatar. Especially in this setting.
* [11:05] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Hey which. Its likely elementary for you,but I just found this link: [http://www.authenticationworld.com/index.php]
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: that's a nice overview!
* [11:05] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: several outline pages with larger discussions per topic. Like OpenID and so on
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: sorta, if you look at the "document authentication" section it seems like it is some bad copy-n-aste
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so .... yeah, learn anything cool?
* [11:07] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: oh , now i see, which is hiding as a plant
* [11:07] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: "just" found it
* [11:07] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: hence the name "Which"
* [11:08] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: copy-in-haste
* [11:08] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: my usual method
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: an interesting link on a similar topic: [http://www.usenix.org/event/hotsec07/tech/full_papers/florencio/florencio.pdf]
* [11:09] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: yeah, it's generally howI write code
* [11:09] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: -l
* [11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: "My style of coding is cowboy!"
* [11:09] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: can i bug you about questions relating to communications between servers? or does that have to wait till, andrews hour
* [11:09] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: lol
* [11:09] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: I'dsay mine is more pirate, but that's prone to misunderstanding ;)
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: sure you can ask me reddot, but I may defer if I don't know the answer
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: HARRR
* [11:11] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: regarding accounts that get 'deleted', is it possible to recover their inventory?
* [11:11] [[User:Bau Ur|Bau Ur]]: Hi Jim. This is Which Linden's office hour at which people can ask questions pertaining to SL infrastructure, system, and distributed transactions.
* [11:11] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: through the archive servers?
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: probably, though we might reap inventories after some time of disabledness
* [11:12] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but I don't think we'd do so as a matter of policy
* [11:12] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: but textures last that long, unless the assets were removed, the textures would still be there,
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: the thing about an asset is that if it's not referenced by anything, it basically doesn't exist
* [11:13] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: along with anything else a person created, in theory,
* [11:13] [[User:dogtow Hand|dogtow Hand]]: takes your money & inventory won't give it back when pay subscription
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: well let's not get into discussing the actions of our support team, that's not really my thing
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but basically the answer is "maybe" :-) I don't know, maybe when we disable an account we also trigger an inventory reaper to clear out the inventory, maybe we just leave it forever.
* [11:14] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: so the only way to recover permissions on items that camefrom an account of someones that got deleted, but say they had no mod no trans backups, would there be a way to retrieve the original full permission version?
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I guess I'm deferringon that one
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: If you have admin access there's always a way to do something, but I don't know about any public interfaces.
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: lemme ask you all a question: seen anything weird or different with regard to L$ inworld in the last hour?
* [11:16] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: erm, not really,
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: that's good :-)
* [11:16] [[User:Bau Ur|Bau Ur]]: Which, I have noticed that group IM s have been failing less frequently the last couple days. Have you guys gotten a handle on that problem?
* [11:16] [[User:Jim Kenyon|Jim Kenyon]]: I havent seen anything on my end
* [11:16] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: i'm flat broke as normal,
* [11:16] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: I've not had any changes in L$ for a good while now
* [11:16] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: Yes. My main avatar it saying "Loading..."
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: really.....
* [11:17] [[User:Arletta Martian|Arletta Martian]]: i didnt try spending linden today
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: where's your main av, techwolf?
* [11:17] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: Techwolf Lupindo
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: where'd you log in?
* [11:17] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: *thinks*
* [11:18] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: isnt there a log of that?
* [11:18] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: A private estate, tp a few times to here and there, and is now at Jack Linden OH.
* [11:18] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: probably, but I'm not really sure how to look it up aside from grepping the logs of every host
* [11:18] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: well, i was thinking more his chat logs
* [11:18] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: the first teleport in todays log,
* [11:18] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: does it ever show up as "loading..." normally or is this the first time you've seen that?
* [11:19] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i have not seen Loading.... balace in a year or more
* [11:19] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: I've never seen it like that.
* [11:19] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: used to be common back then lol
* [11:19] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: First time I've seen that.
* [11:20] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: In fact, didn't notice untill you asked.
* [11:20] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: ok perhaps two years
* [11:20] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: i've seen it a few times, just blamed networking,
* [11:20] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
* [11:20] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: you mean the L$2,000,000,000 that just appeared in my account?
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I should explain: we recently rolled out L$ web services to half the grid, this means that L$ requests still hit the dataserver but then go through a web service
* [11:20] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: mostly my modem, that got the blame 95 percent of the time,
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: trying to find out whether there have been any problems as a result
* [11:21] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: that and the microwave
* [11:21] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: oh hey twisted,
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: that's odd techwolf I see no requests involving your agent id in the web server logs, so.... didn't make it to the web server
* [11:22] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: so you hve things getting lost in transit?
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: either it didn't use that path (because you logged in on the half of the grid that doens't use web services), or the failure was so hard that it didn't even leave the host
* [11:23] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: This is the first time I notice any L failure.
* [11:23] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: what would you mean by failure was so hard?
* [11:24] [[User:Bau Ur|Bau Ur]]: Does the use of web services present new security problems Which? I am a mentor and I got a lot of concerned questions today about account security, which I culd not answer, and weren't clear in teh KB. And G-Team, the pansies, no longer hold office hours. I did not know where to tell the person to go. Can they come to your office hour to discuss such things?
* [11:25] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: oh, yes, any idea on when gteam office hours return?
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Bau: no, everything is purely internal, it's actually slightly more secure than before
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: reddot: no idea, sorry
* [11:25] [[User:Bau Ur|Bau Ur]]: Thank you Which, that's good to hear.
* [11:25] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: could you check around the offices some?
* [11:25] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: at a later point?
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'll ask about the gteam office hours
* [11:26] [[User:Bau Ur|Bau Ur]]: ye,s it is a bit ridiculous. Their web page says office hours were discontinued "for the rest ofg 2008" and would resume in 2009, which is now more than half over. And Zara is listed as a G-Team member -- Zara isn't even on staff anymore.
* [11:26] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: they were supposed to have resumed by now i think,
* [11:28] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: only chance weget to ask questions about governance is when we get very lucky and catch one of them in conversation,
* [11:28] [[User:Bau Ur|Bau Ur]]: One of the questions I was asked was whether objects received in SL could have any kind of malicious code that would operate outside SL.
* [11:29] [[User:Bau Ur|Bau Ur]]: Also whtehre email and IM messages logged outside SL could be written in such a way as to constitute a code that would infect email
* [11:29] [[User:Bau Ur|Bau Ur]]: also whether inside SL anyone could monitor your keystrokes.
* [11:29] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so hey there techwolf I'm seeing that you logged in before 10am so....whatever the issue is it's not due to the web service
* [11:29] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: nothing unless you have a veiwer thats been hacked, and possibly anything like that,
* [11:29] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: ok
* [11:30] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: paid you 1 L$...should correct your balance :-)
* [11:30] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: It poped up now.
* [11:30] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: and ims no, plain ttext file, no formatting even,
* [11:30] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: so no way it could turn to code
* [11:30] [[User:Bau Ur|Bau Ur]]: IMs and chat cannot be used as code? Good to know.
* [11:30] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: Sad thing is those Linden on got on there now may be cashed out for food....:-(
* [11:30] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: without being done by hand,
* [11:31] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Bau: well I'm pretty sure that no one inside SL can log your keystrokes unless they've haxed your computer some other way
* [11:31] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: 'Morning folks .... overslept :P
* [11:31] [[User:Bau Ur|Bau Ur]]: Good to hear. ia always tell people never to give away their password. But I also tell people not to fall in love here :) My advice does not seem to be very potent.
* [11:31] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha ha
* [11:32] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: LSL can only get text, but not keystokes? What all LSL input takeover can do?
* [11:32] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: llol, tell that to folks who are married,
* [11:32] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but yes not giving away your password is the most important thing you can do to keep yourslef safe
* [11:32] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Morgaine have you heard something funny from the client in the past couple of minutes?
* [11:32] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Falling in love is required before marriage? Someone should have said!
* [11:32] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't input takeover just receive specific events, not all keystrokes?
* [11:32] [[User:Bau Ur|Bau Ur]]: There are those...hideously offensive...slave collars that monitor a person's chat and IMs and send them to the email of the "master" I think? Can those be used to obtain any other information that might be without consent?
* [11:32] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Sai: no, but just woke up so might have missed it.
* [11:33] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: like instead of receiving "j key" it receives "forward key"
* [11:33] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Bau: I think those involve the use of Restrained Life viewer
* [11:33] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: I guess it doesn't work on LInxu, Mealea
* [11:33] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hi Morgaine :-)
* [11:34] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: input only receives the directional keys, and only when not in life,
* [11:34] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hi Which :-)
* [11:34] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: its ok, I pasted the library of congress into her IM window
* [11:34] [[User:Arletta Martian|Arletta Martian]]: bau, i think its possible to script an object to capture chat ... not just the slave collars
* [11:34] [[User:Bau Ur|Bau Ur]]: Yes, there are spy devices that capture public chat.
* [11:34] [[User:Jim Kenyon|Jim Kenyon]]: i know for a fact that tehre are chat spys
* [11:35] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: and devices that detect them too
* [11:35] [[User:Jim Kenyon|Jim Kenyon]]: yep
* [11:35] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: chat and ims are too fast to emailon a real time basis, each llemail call takes 3 seconds of sleep
* [11:35] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Objects can capture chat but not IM I don't think
* [11:36] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: I think you mean 30 seconds, red
* [11:36] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: not IM no
* [11:36] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: thank goodness
* [11:36] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: oh, well, it's an insanely long delay,
* [11:36] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: Yes
* [11:37] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: use http-out for your chat-logging purposes!
* [11:37] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: Heh.
* [11:37] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: I was just thinking that
* [11:37] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: and those 'spy' devices are also used legitly as well,
* [11:37] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: by sim owners
* [11:37] [[User:Bau Ur|Bau Ur]]: Yes, as legitimate4 relays for example.
* [11:37] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: You can't really expect privacy from chat that is in the clear at the world provider. You need an independent client chat that you can trust, and it has to encrypt its traffic before that's injected in-world. Anything else is not being serious.
* [11:37] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: you get limited to 1 req/sec per region there for all your scripts
* [11:37] [[User:Jim Kenyon|Jim Kenyon]]: agreed reddot
* [11:37] [[User:Bau Ur|Bau Ur]]: Or as monitors for abusive language.
* [11:38] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: Emereld has encryption
* [11:38] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: to moniter trouble in world,
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: True Morgaine
* [11:38] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: so if you are not careful with your chat relay you might stop all llHttpRequest scripts from working
* [11:38] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: or watching for greifers or abuse,
* [11:38] [[User:Bau Ur|Bau Ur]]: or calls for help
* [11:39] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: or those things that amplify people speaking publicly right?
* [11:39] [[User:Bau Ur|Bau Ur]]: Interesting latif.
* [11:39] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: thats a legit use as well,
* [11:39] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hm yeah a chat logger should buffer
* [11:39] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: megaphone sorta thing,
* [11:39] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Mealea: Emerald's encryption in the in Emerald viewer, and the viewer is too big an application to be a trusted vehicle for privacy. The app that takes your input needs to be an external, independently trusted and signed app, injecting its encrypted output into the viewer, for example using Dahlia's proxy.
* [11:40] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: that makes sense, but its still a start
* [11:40] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: catches up "I have a chat relay. Created by Stickman for the seawolf dragon so more then four can stay in chat range so to speak.
* [11:40] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yeah
* [11:40] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: you mean GridProxy?
* [11:40] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: dayum morgaine, just encrypting the network traffic would probably solve about 99% of security concerns
* [11:41] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: what would it do to speed?
* [11:41] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: lol the dragon avs! that cracks me up so much
* [11:41] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: too big to talk to each other! I love SL
* [11:41] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: Heh
* [11:41] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: grins!!!!
* [11:41] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: lol,
* [11:41] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: but they can set each other on fire
* [11:42] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: so theres a trade off
* [11:42] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: i have a friend with an av so big you gotta shour regardless,
* [11:42] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: no it wouldn't, since the world provider is not a trusted entity in a crypto sense. The only trusted parties are those to whom you've given the decryption key by another route.
* [11:42] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: shout,
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: but what about if you trust the world provider more than you trust the other person you're speaking to?
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: waits for the "no one should do that" response
* [11:43] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: can they be trusted?
* [11:43] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: there should be no trust over a network, only way to be sure your chat is secure is by using quantom physics as a guid
* [11:43] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: guide
* [11:44] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: there it is :-)
* [11:44] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: as at that scale, anything monitered is visibly changed
* [11:44] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but really, if you read the paper I posted above, the top two threats to security are people essentially giving away their password
* [11:44] [[User:Bau Ur|Bau Ur]]: Which, is your area of expertise involved in the problem of group IM failures?
* [11:44] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: just observing it will change it by nature, thats the only reall way to know if your being watched,
* [11:45] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Bau: no....I investigated replacements for group chat but am not the expert on the current architecture
* [11:45] [[User:Bau Ur|Bau Ur]]: Failures seem a bit rarer lately and I was wondering if perhaps I might thank you :)
* [11:45] [[User:Bau Ur|Bau Ur]]: Hi, good Scotts.
* [11:45] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: group im failures are from lack of scalibilty, i think i heard
* [11:45] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: honestly I dont care if Im being watched, and if I am I hope that who ever is watching is entertained
* [11:45] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: lol
* [11:45] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oh we are.... I mean.... you're not being watched
* [11:45] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: :-P
* [11:46] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: I think we're talking about different levels of trust here. :P We trust LL to handle the normal operation of the SL world. That level of trust is quite different to "trust that LL is keeping private chat out of the hands of the NSA, FBI, ... <infinite set of snoops>, as well as out of the hands of LL's own employees." Very different.
* [11:46] [[User:Bau Ur|Bau Ur]]: I do not cyber, but i do say vicious things about some people's art in galleries, so I value privacy :)
* [11:46] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: hahahaha! good! wait till you see this!
* [11:46] [[User:Arletta Martian|Arletta Martian]]: lol
* [11:47] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: any american company with logs cant resist a court order to hand them over without the possiblity of being shut down,
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: hm yes I suppose that's true; any service provider that sees your data has that issue
* [11:47] [[User:Bau Ur|Bau Ur]]: How long are IM logs archived, Which?
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: of course you generally use a service provider because you want them to do somethign cool with your data so it's sort of a catch-22
* [11:48] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: so the NSA is watching me be delighted by the word "cookie" great, Im glad I pay taxes
* [11:48] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: lol,
* [11:48] [[User:Arletta Martian|Arletta Martian]]: lol, mealea
* [11:48] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: no idea Bau; just no idea what we do in terms of logging
* [11:48] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: they have to get a court order to see that :p even if the court is secret,
* [11:49] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: cookie
* [11:49] [[User:Arletta Martian|Arletta Martian]]: reddot, everything is being monitored, since Bushco started it
* [11:49] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: btw, I got a response about the gteam office hours: there are no plans to restore them, they're running everything through the support ticketing system now
* [11:49] [[User:Arletta Martian|Arletta Martian]]: NSA or whomever is filtering everything
* [11:49] [[User:Jim Kenyon|Jim Kenyon]]: time to go
* [11:50] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: everyone should just seed their chat all the time with things which are likely to be trigger words for the NSAand co
* [11:50] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: flood them with data :)
* [11:50] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: erm, what about basic residents, we dont get a real 'support' ticket system,
* [11:50] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: it seems to me that using SL as a place for secure comunication is a bit on the farfetched side, not that people arnt doing so, but I dont think they are at all serious about keeping things privet if they are
* [11:51] [[User:Bau Ur|Bau Ur]]: bomb. Allah. Jihad. Bomb. Bomb. Ladies room at Which Linden's office.
* [11:51] [[User:Arletta Martian|Arletta Martian]]: no i dont think sl is the place for a secure conversation, if thats what you want
* [11:51] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha ha
* [11:51] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: it's always ladies' night a which linden's place!
* [11:51] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: this isint an anomouse remailer in Finnland or something its a #D world...
* [11:51] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: great, typos
* [11:52] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: agreed Mealea -- you're not here to be private, you're here to share
* [11:52] [[User:Arletta Martian|Arletta Martian]]: but NOTHING on the internet is secure ... NOTHING ... its just different levels of insecurity
* [11:52] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: exactly
* [11:52] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: and no, monitering of private citzens conversations has been around since hoover founded the fbi for god's sake, without warrents even,
* [11:52] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: reddot: you can file support tickets without a premium account
* [11:52] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: they had illegal wiretaps on robert oppenhiemers friends and family,
* [11:53] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: the brazennes of the government always amazes me
* [11:53] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: not that I wont try at times to keep things between my self and someone else but Im not putting important personal information in here, or the plans for my latest submarine either
* [11:53] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: not all the various types, and not normally the relevent typos
* [11:53] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Mealea: sure, but that's because we're not doing anything of any interest to anyone else. If you were a politician you wouldn't be keen on your exploits as a furry appearing on the front page, and if you were a business person developing a market product, you wouldn't want competitors to have access to your plans. There are lots of reasons people have for privacy, which we may not have ourselves.
* [11:53] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: types
* [11:53] [[User:Arletta Martian|Arletta Martian]]: wiretaps on individuals is one thing, wiretapping EVERYING going thru the network is another,,, on the plus side, they cant read all of that info, they have to filter for certain words
* [11:53] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: arletta, they did that,
* [11:53] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Mealea: and in many countries, privacy is a matter of life and death. The government not liking you can be a terminal experience.
* [11:54] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: some countries, not many,
* [11:54] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: Kitty, thats a good point I suppose, but on the other hand by now you would think a politition would have learned som other..... hmmmmmm never mind
* [11:54] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: many involves an majority,
* [11:55] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: I used the word learned, and that dosentfit
* [11:55] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Mealea: you used the word "politician" and "learn" in the same sentence. Epic fail
* [11:55] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hehe
* [11:55] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: lol
* [11:55] [[User:Arletta Martian|Arletta Martian]]: lol
* [11:55] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: HAHAHAHAHA!
* [11:55] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: grins at BlooooKitty!
* [11:56] [[User:Bau Ur|Bau Ur]]: One of the reasons I like Which Linden is that he actually says useful stuff rather than delivering prefabricated preapporved text when asked something sensitive.
* [11:56] [[User:Bau Ur|Bau Ur]]: LIke an engineeer rather than a PR drone or a politician.
* [11:56] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: and, as far as exploits as a furry go, i think i'd personally make that public long before i run,
* [11:56] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Almost as if I was an engineer! :-)
* [11:56] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: lol
* [11:56] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: so there arent any accusations during a race,
* [11:56] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: he's a plant
* [11:56] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: there are project like OpenVPN that let you jam all of your network traffict to ssl encrypted stream on port 443 esentially making it look like plain old https to someone listening in
* [11:57] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: can you demolish 40 beers?
* [11:57] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: CSI actually help us. We can point to that and say "Do you really think that happens?" Lol
* [11:57] [[User:Arletta Martian|Arletta Martian]]: lol ...... and do furries do something embarassing for a politician or is being a furry potentially embarassing????
* [11:57] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha ha, yes, I drink rum every day
* [11:57] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: hmmm, when he gets lots of stuff done he becomes a power plant ;)
* [11:57] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: lol,
* [11:58] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: I do too actualy, and from Cuba lately, Gloria's is fantastic
* [11:58] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: i hope you dont drink and code :p
* [11:58] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: A coder is a machine for turning coffee^H^H^H^H^H^H into code
* [11:58] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: that kinda thing causes region crossing failures :p
* [11:58] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: uh forgot to put in "rum" into that ^H
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: it's not cause I'm drunk
* [11:59] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: hahaha!!!!
* [11:59] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: not yet anyway
* [11:59] [[User:Arletta Martian|Arletta Martian]]: a drunk plant?
* [11:59] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: no, you're not making enough typos to be drunk yet,
* [11:59] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: its almost noon!
* [11:59] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: Hmmm, I don't drink coffee or alcohol, I guess tea and soda work too
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: "let me show you what it looks like when I'm drunk"
* [12:00] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: lol
* [12:00] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: at 1.6 fps this should be fun
* [12:00] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: considers knocking the plant over as part of the demo :p
* [12:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha ha, well, we kinda avoided technical topics didn't we today?
* [12:00] [[User:Arletta Martian|Arletta Martian]]: my fault, sorry
* [12:00] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: we got a few in,
* [12:00] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: Yeah I noticed that too :P
* [12:01] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: at the start.
* [12:01] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: technicly rum is a topic
* [12:01] [[User:Arletta Martian|Arletta Martian]]: but one last question, can you WALK in that plant av???
* [12:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah
* [12:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: check it
* [12:01] [[User:Bau Ur|Bau Ur]]: :)
* [12:01] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: runs on coke
* [12:01] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: lol
* [12:01] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: lol
* [12:01] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: Awesome
* [12:01] [[User:Bau Ur|Bau Ur]]: :)
* [12:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: the default animation makes it bob so cutely
* [12:01] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: err, the legal kind that is
* [12:01] [[User:Arletta Martian|Arletta Martian]]: no feet but he walks
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so yeah! I should go
* [12:02] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: ha! and I was looking at your nose
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: it's magic damn it
* [12:02] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: i didnt even realize you were on a pedastol,
* [12:02] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: Fare well, Which
* [12:02] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: lolo
* [12:02] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: Er, lol*
* [12:02] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: mind you, Which clearly runs on pot
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so yeah keep your eyes out for L$ problems
* [12:02] [[User:reddot99 Republic|reddot99 Republic]]: k,
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: it uses the web service on even-numberes simhosts
* [12:02] [[User:Bau Ur|Bau Ur]]: Good luck with the server change WHich.
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hah zing aimee
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: thanks!
* [12:02] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: ;)
* [12:02] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which got serveral transactions while here, so far so good
* [12:02] [[User:Bau Ur|Bau Ur]]: Must go.
* [12:03] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Bye Which, take care :-)
* [12:03] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: waves
* [12:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: take care yourself!
* [12:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: see ya next week!

Texture meta-data

2009-07-17T20:31:22Z

Which Linden: /* j2c_comments.py */ Python tag! Rocks!

On upload, [http://www.jpeg.org/public/fcd15444-1.pdf j2c textures] will have all CME segments in the main header removed to be replaced by a single CME segment. That segment will be serialized as an unordered key-value url query string with the following keys and associated values.

;a:The agent_id of the resident that uploaded the texture.
;z:The utc time the texture was uploaded in '''YYYYmmddHHMMSS''' [http://www.python.org/doc/2.5.2/lib/module-time.html format].
;w:The original width of the image as reported by the viewer. This value must be interpretable as an integer greater than 0 and less than 1,000,000.
;h:The original height of the image as reported by the viewer. This value must be interpretable as an integer greater than 0 and less than 1,000,000.
;c:The average color of the image as calculated during verification. The value will be '''RRGGBBAA''' in hex with 00 being none and ff representing full saturation of that component. If the image only has three components, then alpha is set to ff. If there are more than four components, the extra components are skipped.

== example ==
The actual encoded comment string will look something like:

<pre>
a=abbee3b5-fbe0-4cfa-8d15-323d6800448e&h=480&w=640&z=20081118204138&c=26961aff
</pre>

== tool support ==
The <code>j2c_comments.py</code> script understands j2c codestream CME markers and will parse for them in the main header. To use it, pass a list of j2c codestream file names on the command line. The script will emit the file name parsed and report on comments found for each. If the example above is in test.texture, the session would look something like:

<pre>
$ ./j2c_comments.py test.texture
test.texture: {
'a':['abbee3b5-fbe0-4cfa-8d15-323d6800448e'],
'h':['480'],
'w':['640'],
'z':['20081118204138'],
'c':['26961aff']}
</pre>

The tool will emit error messages if the codestream could not be understood, or if the comment is not latin1. Comments which do not conform to the query string format will be treated as a plain, raw latin1 string.

=== j2c_comments.py ===

<python>
#!/usr/bin/env python
"""
Extract out all of the j2c CME markers
"""

import cgi
import optparse
import struct

class NotJ2C(Exception):
pass

def parse_cme(filename):
j2c = file(filename, 'rb')
comments = None
while True:
marker_bytes = j2c.read(2)
marker, marker_type = struct.unpack('BB', marker_bytes)
if marker != 0xff:
raise NotJ2C
if marker_type == 0x90:
# we found the SOT, so we're done.
return comments
elif marker_type == 0x4f:
# this is SOC, which does not have a lsoc element
continue
size_bytes = j2c.read(2)
size = struct.unpack('!H', size_bytes)[0] - 2

if marker_type == 0x64:
# found a CME. read it, and interpret it.
rcme = j2c.read(2)
rcme = struct.unpack('!H', rcme)[0]
if rcme == 0:
new_comment = '<binary>'
elif rcme == 1:
raw_comment = j2c.read(size - 2)
new_comment = cgi.parse_qs(raw_comment)
if len(new_comment) == 0:
new_comment = raw_comment
else:
new_comment = '<unknown>'

if comments is None:
comments = new_comment
elif type(comments) == 'list':
comments.append(new_comment)
else:
comments = [comments, new_comments]
continue

j2c.seek(size, 1)
continue

def main():
parser = optparse.OptionParser(
usage="usage: %prog [options] file_list",
description="Read through file list and extract the CME field")
options, args = parser.parse_args()
if len(args) < 1:
parser.error("Please specify one or more files to assign.")
for filename in args:
try:
comments = parse_cme(filename)
print filename + ': ' + str(comments)
except NotJ2C:
print filename + ': Unable to parse file'

if __name__ == "__main__":
main()
</python>

[[Category:Assets]]

User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2009 July 16

2009-07-16T19:11:35Z

Which Linden: Created page with '* [11:04] The region: you have entered is running a different simulator version. Click this message for details. * [11:04] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom N...'

* [11:04] [[User:The region|The region]]: you have entered is running a different simulator version. Click this message for details.
* [11:04] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: lol, fitting avatar. Greetings Which
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hey there
* [11:05] [[User:Yann Dufaux|Yann Dufaux]]: hello Which :)
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: looks like all the action is going on in aw groupies chat
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: nice av, brandon
* [11:07] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: Thanks :D
* [11:07] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: wow
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: looks even better once all the sculpties download
* [11:08] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hey all :)
* [11:08] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: Greetings
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: how are y'all doing?
* [11:09] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: Swell, how about you
* [11:09] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hiya Which!
* [11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: pretty good now that I discovered the "Don't send IM to chat console" preference!
* [11:09] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: lol :)
* [11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I am easily confused
* [11:10] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: lol
* [11:10] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: speaking of local chat, have you noticed an issue with local chat and the 1.27 server code?
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: no....what issue did you see?
* [11:10] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: several people in groupies have commented that it seems borked ATM
* [11:10] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: I'm mainly here to eavesdrop on the office hours! I apologize if I'm quiet :D
* [11:10] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: I haven't.. Local chat is terrible with chat lag and out of order-ness as always
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: sure no problem Brandon, it's not like you're really sneaking around there
* [11:11] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so we're currently on a 1.26 sim
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so we won't get to experience whatever it is
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'd love to try switching local chat to TCP to see if that improves things
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I think I'd have to restart the sim to make that happen though
* [11:12] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: I haven't been doing much local chat today anyway so I can't say either way
* [11:12] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: It's on udp?
* [11:12] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: it will not change much
* [11:13] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: switching to CAP would avoid chat lines from a single agent coming out of order, but that would only mean more lag in case of dropped packets
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: well yes and no latif
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: TCP is better with dropped packets than our "reliable UDP"
* [11:14] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: lol reliable UDP
* [11:14] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Phantom, TCP is is buta a reliable UDP
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: in particular "reliable UDP" consumes more CPU
* [11:15] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: ICQ used UDP in the early days and it scaled very well for IMs.
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'm sure there's a way to write an efficient implementation of IM-over-UDP, but what we have is not that
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: What we have is kinda more aimed at sending commands to the dataserver to do things to the database
* [11:16] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: The local chat lag I've been seeing (mostly in office hours) has been in 1.26. I think it's just a general rise in congestion.
* [11:16] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: Today, I don't know if ICQ still uses that. So many NAT routers that broke UDP in many places.
* [11:16] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: Morgaine, we see it all the time in sandboxes
* [11:16] [[User:Yann Dufaux|Yann Dufaux]]: which, do you have more information about the new http-in fonctions?
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yann: I'm afraid I don't
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: if you have specific questions I can try and find out the answers for you though
* [11:17] [[User:Yann Dufaux|Yann Dufaux]]: because i think you can, remake a new version of teleport script :)
* [11:17] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: er, hi Mela
* [11:17] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Mealea*
* [11:19] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: dammit
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so hey check it out:
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: [http://eventlet.net/]
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: working on some docs
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: tell me what you think
* [11:22] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: I thin Im about to crash
* [11:22] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: Someone mentioned http-in sourced temporary resources, for things like images, etc. Do you know anything about that Which?
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: What do you mean "temporary resources", brandon?
* [11:23] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Do you mean it takes script time or something?
* [11:23] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: which does waiter.wait() support timeout value?
* [11:23] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: They didn't actually explain it fully. They said they saw it mentioned on the sldev mailing list. But basically, being able to rez an object and have it use a texture drawnfrom http-in somehow, for the time it's rezzed, instead of relying on the asset servers.
* [11:24] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: textures are cached on the sim currently?
* [11:24] [[User:Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: eventlet looks to me like a poor-man's twisted python
* [11:24] [[User:Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: at first glance
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: no, you'd want to do a 'with api.timeout(10): waiter.wait()'
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Brandon: Wow, that would be cool but I don't know anything about how to do that
* [11:26] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Tapple its prety useful. pyogp can scale drastically as far as we can tell due to eventlets
* [11:26] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Careful Which, Mealea is right behind you, and she's probably eyeing up your fronds as food for her critters ;-)
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ruh roh!
* [11:26] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: watch out Uncle Scobby
* [11:26] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: hehehehehehe
* [11:26] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Scoobby
* [11:26] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: Scooby-rooby-roo?
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Tapple: eventlet has a twisted compatibility module, the main point of it is to avoid having to write a jillion callbacks; aside from that it's pretty agnostic
* [11:27] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Twisted is basically "look we implemented every protocol ever, here!"
* [11:27] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: nice
* [11:27] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: so one program can talk to anything?
* [11:27] [[User:Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: ok
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Mealea: of course, as long as it's programmed properly!
* [11:28] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: does it wrong to see what happens
* [11:28] [[User:Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: hmm. at second glance, eventlet looks to have nothing to do with twisted; it's just an event library
* [11:28] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: you can wrap any function inside eventlet and run it as a coroutine (sorta kinda well maybe not)
* [11:29] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Sai: watch out on the "scale drastically" bit, since that's what made the group IM service die last Wednesday. The coroutine code was reverted.
* [11:29] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: I took WX and made it work with eventlet with just a few lines of code
* [11:29] [[User:Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: I'd almost rather have a straight event-driven language, like LSL or js or smalltalk
* [11:29] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: took some time to figure out WHICH few lines to add but it was very trivial
* [11:30] [[User:Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: maybe I'm overthinking
* [11:30] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: actually that's backwards
* [11:30] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The code we're running on now uses only coroutines
* [11:31] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The code that had to be reverted was multiprocess
* [11:32] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: That's interesting
* [11:32] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Ineed
* [11:32] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: *Indeed
* [11:32] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: (Trying to reconcile that with what Enus said)
* [11:33] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: grins at BloooJitty
* [11:33] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: So the coroutines were spread out over multiple O/S processes, and that barfed?
* [11:33] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: Kitty
* [11:33] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: ... back...
* [11:34] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: tries to draw more comment from Which about stuff that may be "classified" ^_^
* [11:34] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: shes checking with Enus
* [11:34] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: hehehe
* [11:34] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Haha
* [11:34] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: I don't know to that much detail but apparently the processes would stall if a simhost was busy and didn't respond in time
* [11:35] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Coroutines don't really have that problem (though we do still have issues, just not as severe)
* [11:35] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: Which, just out of curiosity, why the look at python code and such?
* [11:35] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Brandon: not sure I understand your question
* [11:35] [[User:Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: well, I definitely prefer event-driven rather than multipresess, for anything io-bound
* [11:35] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: maybe I came a little too late and missed something.
* [11:35] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: you mean, why post the link to Eventlet?
* [11:35] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Argggghhhh ... the processes were running on the sim host?
* [11:35] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: Yes
* [11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh, well, I work on eventlet
* [11:36] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: I see
* [11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It is relevant to my interests :-)
* [11:36] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: is the server code still in python or is it in C++?
* [11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: And as you can see, we use it for some internal services
* [11:36] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: I was thinking maybe it was related to a new version of LSL or something.
* [11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Sai: a mixture; the sim is C++
* [11:37] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: the processes were not on the sim hosts, but they had to connect to the sim processes occasionally
* [11:37] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So, as an overview, I work on server side stuff at LL, which are generally not open-source
* [11:37] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Phew, thought the sim CPUs were having MORE work given to them :-)
* [11:37] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So it's a little hard to really discuss things I work on here at my OH
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: But I use eventlet during my work, so that's a decent topic
* [11:38] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: Well you could paste random lines of code and not tell us what they do!
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Ha ha ha
* [11:38] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: :P
* [11:38] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hehe
* [11:38] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Seconded :-)
* [11:39] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: hmmm yah, paste 1.27, and dont tell us what it is and we wont save or log it or anything
* [11:39] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: We promise :P
* [11:39] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: Oh yes, totally
* [11:40] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: yes, yes we do, and when you give us real fingers they wont be crossed
* [11:40] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: lol
* [11:40] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha ha, just pick some uncommented code that we don't use anymore, let you guys worry about whether the obvious error in it is causing the grid to die
* [11:41] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: lol
* [11:41] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: oh you dont use 1.27 any more? wow
* [11:41] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: neat
* [11:41] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: Which could always make some code that contains "Hello, Avatar!"
* [11:41] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah that's old hat, we use 1.30 internally and it's awesome
* [11:42] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: lol
* [11:42] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: o.o
* [11:42] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: Is LSL getting love in 1.3? :D
* [11:42] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: was browsing eventlet docs... still find c# threading and its AutoResetEvents much easier to grok ;)
* [11:42] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: So what kind of thing do you use eventlets for Which, without being specific?
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: There's a new right-click "roundhouse kick"
* [11:42] [[User:Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: only cuz it's not load tested
* [11:42] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: is there a default Chuck NOrris avatar?
* [11:43] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: oh, I thought he was serious :(
* [11:43] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: What's so awesome in 1.30 Which? :)
* [11:43] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: hahahah!!!!!
* [11:43] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: Every single bug fixed yet?
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Instead of UDP we use "a series of punches to the face"
* [11:43] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: lol
* [11:43] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: ROFL
* [11:43] [[User:Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: eall prims in 1.30 rez upzide down
* [11:43] [[User:Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: its awesome
* [11:44] [[User:Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: you can dig tunnels
* [11:44] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Every prim looks like a kung fu kick or a dinosaur, and every texture is an image of your own death
* [11:44] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: lol, awesome
* [11:44] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: If you pay extra, you can use the Black Belt protocol
* [11:44] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: does it have sound effects too?
* [11:44] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: ah, but Chuck NOrris STILL cant defeat Angry Mom
* [11:44] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: Babbage did said something about better instrumentation in 1.30 - so you can see how many bytes scripts in your attachments are goign to use
* [11:44] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: and does its mouth move before and after speaking??
* [11:44] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: had "all images upside down" proxy for his open wi-fi access point :P
* [11:44] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The only sound effect is your own crying as you sit in front of your computer
* [11:45] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha ha that's funny Latif, nice one
* [11:45] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ah....yeah
* [11:45] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: so bandwith leachers had a big WTF trying to browse the web ;)
* [11:45] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: drat
* [11:45] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: I remember that /. dtory.
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: well that was fun
* [11:46] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: Entertaining :P
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so yeah I use it for quite a variety of internal things; maintenance tools mostly
* [11:46] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: python?
* [11:46] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: eventlet
* [11:47] [[User:Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: bython is the second best language out there, after smalltalk
* [11:47] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: bi-thong?
* [11:47] [[User:Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: ya
* [11:47] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: now I know why I've been misspelling it all that time
* [11:47] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: what is better about smalltalk?
* [11:47] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Trithong is faster though
* [11:47] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: is getting hungry.
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: As a quick poll, did anyone notice an unexpected 1 L$ group liability last week?
* [11:50] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I saw the forums complaining about that
* [11:50] [[User:Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: not I
* [11:50] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: Considering I only have 13L, 1 less can't hurt.
* [11:50] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: I didn't notice
* [11:50] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: Let me check. I just notice I have $2 and it sould be $3
* [11:50] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, I get so many transactions, I wouldn't notice much larger ones
* [11:50] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
* [11:51] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: yes, and for somereason everyone in the group it happened in wanted to know what I was going to do about it, the funny thing is telling them I would double it every time someone asked about it shut them right up and its not even my group
* [11:51] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: That's the most effective kind of tax, once that the taxed don't even notice :-)
* [11:52] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: :o
* [11:52] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: Mealea, whyfor?
* [11:52] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: just in case you meet the tax collector
* [11:52] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: scary words :(
* [11:52] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Thinking of payments... Which, I hear you're the Linden to ask, any chance of supporting money/inventory delivery in an actual transactional manner, with being able to check if it arrived, for example?
* [11:53] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha ha Mealea
* [11:53] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: Thank you :D
* [11:53] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: any time
* [11:53] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: grins!
* [11:53] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Xugu: great question, I'd love to support that but it's a lot of work
* [11:53] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: how about 3 seconds from now? :D (kidding!)
* [11:53] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: well anytime possible
* [11:53] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Which, I'll ask again in 2010, eh?
* [11:54] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So...the group liability was corrected yesterday, so everyone who lost 1 L$ got it back
* [11:54] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: hehehe, that might be too soon, I need to sell something first
* [11:54] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Xugu: yeah :-)
* [11:54] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: Ooo...I found it.
* [11:54] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: now you have 3L?
* [11:54] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: I did have a un-autherize $1 on 6-30-2009
* [11:54] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Dig in those couch cushions!
* [11:54] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: you've pretty much got transactions covered with your escrow system, no?
* [11:54] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: yes, that's what that's for
* [11:54] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: shares the love with ATech
* [11:54] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: I dont think I did actualy, I should have multiples of 5 and I dont
* [11:55] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: points Xugu to the diagram above us showing Which's escrow protocol
* [11:56] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Xugu, use a bot to deliver goods :) that way you know when inventory offer was accepted
* [11:56] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Morgaine, and as someone who sells by setting a price on stuff and leaving it like that, it's fantastic. However, vendors do have a place...
* [11:56] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: hehe...that was a surpize.
* [11:56] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: Which, do you know why we can't set an object's price and sale properties via script?
* [11:56] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Latif, money events can still be eaten by the grid, alas
* [11:56] [[User:Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: thinks "scarecrow" whenever she hears "escrow"
* [11:56] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Brandon: no, I wasn't even aware you couldn't
* [11:56] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: unfortunately no, you can't.
* [11:56] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: hmmmmmm.... I like this bamboo more and more every second.....
* [11:57] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: you can only set it through th build GUI
* [11:57] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Which, llGetSalePrice() and llSetSalePrice would bring me a lot of joy...
* [11:57] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Xugu, shown in search too++
* [11:57] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Mealea: idea for new critter?
* [11:57] [[User:Paula Scarbridge|Paula Scarbridge]]: whatcha doing in the wather?
* [11:57] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: xugu, also the sale properties: sell original, sell copy, sell contents
* [11:58] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: llSetSaleProperties(integer sale_type)
* [11:58] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Brandon, good point. Need to be able to do it on linked prims, too...
* [11:58] [[User:Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: googles escrow
* [11:58] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: or maybe llSetSaleType
* [11:58] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Is there a JIRA for those LSL calls?
* [11:58] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: llSetSale(integer link, integer type, integer price) - that's a worrying number of integers in a row, though
* [11:58] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Cause you should make one
* [11:58] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: if none exists
* [11:58] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: I'll search which
* [11:58] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: actualy Im making something very much like it only it grows and eats and is editable, but this has a clever combination of parts, like the leaves are flexi
* [11:58] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Found a Wiki entry, oddly.. [http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlGetPrice]
* [11:58] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: was sure I saw a JIRA
* [11:59] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: not that making JIRA's helps a lot :P
* [11:59] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: There we go
* [11:59] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: [http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1593]
* [11:59] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: xugu, can you sell different items from linked prims?
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: "The described function does not exist. This article is a feature request." <--- wtf
* [11:59] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: I thought if you paid an object, it just went to the root
* [11:59] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Brandon, I know you can do some tricks with the root prim being purchasable only...
* [11:59] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: standard anwer these days "we (the lindens) are overworked, no resources to implement or qa new lsl features"
* [11:59] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: well "went to the root"
* [12:00] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: I have a lot of jiras for LSL things I think would be useful, but I don't have one for sale properties.
* [12:00] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: I do this with vendors; they sit on no-trans "display stands", which are linked to them. You can click anywhere to buy, but only get the root's contents
* [12:00] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: I like xugu's proposal though.
* [12:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: That is true; we are steadily increasing the amount of QA we do for each feature, but it's still risky and expensive to do stuff
* [12:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: and "omg they (linden management) killed featurretes branch"
* [12:00] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: I'm just not sure if being able to set a link's sale properties would be necessary, but he may be right. I haven't looked into that.
* [12:00] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: there is [http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-3077]
* [12:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: But Snowglobe is kind of the spiritual successor
* [12:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: (of featurettes)
* [12:01] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: maybe it would be possible to add SVC-1593 to it?
* [12:01] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Which, we'd love to see features hitting preview faster even if they then stay there longer for QA....
* [12:01] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: Oh! SVC-2885 is one of my jiras!
* [12:01] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Imaze, it apparently already is!
* [12:01] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: doh
* [12:01] [[User:Yann Dufaux|Yann Dufaux]]: i love snowglobe, more stable exepte since the bugs of textures :)
* [12:02] [[User:Imaze Rhiano|Imaze Rhiano]]: smacks her head...
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Xugu: ah but there's the opposite contingent who doesn't want anything released to the public before it's prefect
* [12:02] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Get and set should be possible for *every* attribute though -- not single out only price.
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah totally
* [12:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: llSetObjectAttribute(string name, list arguments)
* [12:03] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Which, okay, we'll track down and kill the people who want stuff out of preview until it's perfect, problem solved :)
* [12:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: actually LSL kinda blows for variable argument lists
* [12:03] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: Which, though I like it, I'm not sure that would work.
* [12:03] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: yeah, variable lists is the problem.
* [12:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah I'm sure that what I wrote is wrong in many ways
* [12:03] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Which, the second half of your sentance was redundant :)
* [12:03] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: (the one about LSL kinda blowing...)
* [12:03] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: llSetPrimitiveParams. Hint Hint.
* [12:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha ha
* [12:04] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: we need more and better functions, but I think dedicated functions are necessary too.
* [12:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: One of the things I don't work on is LSL stuff, so while I sympathize there's pretty much 0 chance that I'll ever actually work on any of this, I'm afraid
* [12:04] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: I like MISC-39077
* [12:04] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: 3077
* [12:04] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: why is that Which?
* [12:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Well, cause someone else works on LSL, not me!
* [12:05] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: also LLsetPrimCenterOfRotation
* [12:05] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: So we should bother Andrew and Babbage instead.
* [12:05] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: hahahahahaha!
* [12:05] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Which, I'm just kinda bombarding Lindens in an attempt to get scripting some more love
* [12:06] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Xugu: feature freeze
* [12:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Sure Xugu, and office hours are an OK place to do that
* [12:06] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: Which keeps us busy while M makes up limits, its a tough job but someone has to do it
* [12:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Just telling you, in my part, that I ain't implementing it :-)
* [12:06] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: yes Mealea :( my sculpts can't llTargetOmega correctly.
* [12:06] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Which, understood :)
* [12:07] [[User:Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: so, are the agent stores and the escrow 3 seperate agents/avatars?
* [12:07] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: I want to help push for scripting improvements.
* [12:07] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: Brandon, Sculpts asre spehere (Im sorry if you already know this) so its the center of the orignal sphere
* [12:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Tapple, maybe I should explain that diagram some time
* [12:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Not today though, I gotta run
* [12:07] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: yes I know mealea :) but getting them to operate like one is difficult.
* [12:08] [[User:Tapple Gao|Tapple Gao]]: ok. have fun
* [12:08] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: hehehe! I bet!
* [12:08] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: have fun which ;)
* [12:08] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: Even if they appear perfectly round, they still rotate off ccenter.
* [12:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Thanks everyone, enjoyed talking with you
* [12:08] [[User:Phantom Ninetails|Phantom Ninetails]]: Fare well, Which
* [12:08] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: if we're revisiting escrow some time, perhaps you could bring some demo code :-)
* [12:08] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: alters which
* [12:08] [[User:Yann Dufaux|Yann Dufaux]]: have a nice day Which take car :)
* [12:08] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: laters
* [12:08] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Cyu Which, take care :-)
* [12:08] [[User:Mealea Ying|Mealea Ying]]: Thanks Which!
* [12:08] [[User:Brandon Shinobu|Brandon Shinobu]]: bye which
* [12:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: l8r!
* [12:08] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Thanks Which!

User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2009 July 9

2009-07-09T18:35:25Z

Which Linden: Created page with '* [10:59] Which Linden: Hi Liisa! * [11:00] Which Linden: are you here for my office hours? * [11:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Lind...'

* [10:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hi Liisa!
* [11:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: are you here for my office hours?
* [11:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hi morgaine!
* [11:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif, good to see you!
* [11:01] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hey Which
* [11:01] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hi Which, + usual suspects :
* [11:01] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: just ported my prim search to http
* [11:01] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: 2 hours after plot roll ;)
* [11:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: how's it working?
* [11:01] [[User:Liisa Runo|Liisa Runo]]: back, hi all
* [11:01] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: so far so good :)
* [11:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: nice!
* [11:01] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: and fast
* [11:01] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: :D
* [11:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: uses less resources?
* [11:01] [[User:ThunderBolt Kanto|ThunderBolt Kanto]]: excuse me, Which, may i please get your Linden bear
* [11:02] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: it used to depend for email for outsite world coms
* [11:02] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: when you are lucky email had 5s latency
* [11:02] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: it would go up to 2hours when things are bad
* [11:02] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: now it works instantlyh
* [11:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: sure ThunderBolt
* [11:02] [[User:ThunderBolt Kanto|ThunderBolt Kanto]]: thank yoou
* [11:02] [[User:ThunderBolt Kanto|ThunderBolt Kanto]]: accepted your inventory offer.
* [11:02] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: plus the communication goes outside sercice
* [11:03] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: no outside service
* [11:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: btw everyone, I have a meeting at 11:30 today so I'm going to have to cut out early
* [11:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah I think email is handled by like one perl script on one machine
* [11:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: http
* [11:04] [[User:ThunderBolt Kanto|ThunderBolt Kanto]]: that is a coll avie, Which
* [11:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: thanks!
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: would you maybe be interested in writing a guide on porting to http
* [11:06] [[User:ThunderBolt Kanto|ThunderBolt Kanto]]: cool avie, Seb
* [11:06] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: `Thank you Thunderbolt :)
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I mean I don't know jack about http
* [11:06] [[User:ThunderBolt Kanto|ThunderBolt Kanto]]: most horses i have are not that good
* [11:07] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hm, my documentation skills are lacking, but i could give it a shot if I get some free time
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: :
* [11:08] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: I spent a little while making this AV and tweaking it. There are a lot of neat horse AVs out there though. I'll get you the landmark for once after office hours is over :)
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The creativity of the avatar community never fails to amaze
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: BTW I'm not the only plant linden anymore
* [11:08] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Oh?
* [11:09] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Who else is also a plant?
* [11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Ambroff is a potted daisy
* [11:09] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Haha
* [11:09] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Little Weed!!!!!
* [11:09] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Cramping the flowerpot!
* [11:09] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: if anyone wants to check it out, i can give you "login key" for the service... basically login key is used to establish your identity so you don't grief people by sending them prims using my service
* [11:09] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: cute :D
* [11:09] [[User:ThunderBolt Kanto|ThunderBolt Kanto]]: better watch out for Michael then, Which, moles like to burrow
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: actually....there's apparently no dirt in this bamboo plant
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: the "soil" is some sort of plastic matrix
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'm not sure how it can support life
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So....anyhow, is anyone here an eventlet user?
* [11:11] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: A which?
* [11:11] [[User:ThunderBolt Kanto|ThunderBolt Kanto]]: no
* [11:11] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: You get all the nutrients when pandas come to visit ^_^
* [11:11] [[User:ThunderBolt Kanto|ThunderBolt Kanto]]: i use Emerald viewer
* [11:12] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: doesn't speak python
* [11:12] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: it's the basis of PyOGP, so in that sense we've played with eventlet
* [11:12] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: (yet)
* [11:12] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: I don't get into python much at the moment either
* [11:12] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: at least you know python isn't a snake
* [11:12] [[User:Liisa Runo|Liisa Runo]]: fullbright the picture
* [11:13] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: lol
* [11:13] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Was it eventlet scalability that caused the 1.27 group IM enhancements to burn and crash?
* [11:13] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Or even crash and burn, hehe
* [11:13] [[User:ThunderBolt Kanto|ThunderBolt Kanto]]: lol
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: "eventlet scalability" is kind of a meaningless term, like "cpu storage"
* [11:14] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: hey my CPU you has some storage :D
* [11:14] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]:
* [11:14] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: err
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but no.... that's not why as far as I know
* [11:15] [[User:ThunderBolt Kanto|ThunderBolt Kanto]]: can you call L@ cache "storeage"
* [11:15] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Well, using more words, does eventlet CPU or storage requirements rise beyond the acceptable for high number of coroutines?
* [11:15] [[User:ThunderBolt Kanto|ThunderBolt Kanto]]: L2'
* [11:15] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: :)
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I don't know very much about the problem, but it may have had something to do with poorly
* [11:16] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: my CPU probably has about 4096 times as much storage as my first computer
* [11:16] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Erlang process spawning is cmmonly tested into the hundreds of thousands, but not heard of eventlet limit tests
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but I really don't know, so that could be completely incorrect
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I've seen eventlet hit hundreds of thousands of coroutines without major issues
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but it's not rigorously tested like erlang is
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but! eventlet just had its 0.8.11 release, and we're moving on to 0.9 and cleaning house
* [11:17] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yeah, noticed the 0.8.11, and was surprised that it wasn't 0.9
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so if you care about it, hop on eventletdev and help guide and test
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah we did 0.8.11 just as a bugfix/backcompat release
* [11:18] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: the sims probably just got shy when they realised people wanted to talk through them
* [11:18] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: performance anxiety
* [11:18] [[User:ThunderBolt Kanto|ThunderBolt Kanto]]: might download it
* [11:19] [[User:ThunderBolt Kanto|ThunderBolt Kanto]]: i will have to get on the beta grid again, been too long since i been there
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: in particular what I'd like to do for 0.9 is to nail down a consistent and standard abstraction for concurrency
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but you all don't use it so you don't care :
* [11:20] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Is Donovan working on it anymore?
* [11:20] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I mean externally
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: he doesn't seem to have much time, but yes
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: none of us have time, except for Denis
* [11:20] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: nods
* [11:20] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hehe
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It's actually really interesting how that works
* [11:22] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Well you know what you have to do. You only have two options, (i) get more devs, and (ii) open source some server
* [11:22] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: And if you have no reasonably independent subsystems, then you have an architectural problem.
* [11:23] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hah you say that like you're surprised
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but yes, completely agreed
* [11:24] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: More sad than surprised :
* [11:24] [[User:ThunderBolt Kanto|ThunderBolt Kanto]]: is there a Windows release of Eventlet, i am running Windows XP and i will test it
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ThunderBolt: we don't test it on Windows, but 0.8.11 may work there
* [11:25] [[User:ThunderBolt Kanto|ThunderBolt Kanto]]: i was reading the wiki about it, not tested on windows yet
* [11:25] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: You guys are being driven into the ground by work, and it's not optional work. It can't really go on, you're human ... with some cellulose thrown in :P
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Well, things will have to get worse before they get better
* [11:27] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yep. In part to get the message where it needs to go.
* [11:27] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: We can continually try to play whack
* [11:27] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Either way, pain :
* [11:27] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which += cookie
* [11:27] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The worst is when the rearchitecture falls behind schedule and you end up doing both
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: But, now that I've delivered a daily dose of sad, I have a planning meeting that I should go to
* [11:29] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which += happiness
* [11:29] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: my apologies for not being able to stay for the full hour
* [11:29] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Have a good rest of day :
* [11:29] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Thanks, Morgaine, I appreciate the love
* [11:29] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: You all have a great day too!
* [11:29] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Oh I give plenty of brickbats too, but only where deserved, hehe
* [11:29] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: No problem Which

User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2009 June 25

2009-06-25T19:13:25Z

Which Linden: Created page with '* [11:01] Latif Khalifa: hey which * [11:01] Twisted Laws: hello which * [11:01] Which Linden: Hi there! * [...'

* [11:01] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hey which
* [11:01] [[User:Twisted Laws|Twisted Laws]]: hello which
* [11:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hi there!
* [11:01] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hiya Which :-)
* [11:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'm running Snowglobe, it's pretty sexy!
* [11:02] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hehe
* [11:02] [[User:Widget Whiteberry|Widget Whiteberry]]: surveys chairs, wonders which are filled
* [11:02] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I'm running Snowglove too, but wouldn't call it sexy, hehe. Just greater zoom in map, main visible change, no?
* [11:02] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: globe*
* [11:02] [[User:Widget Whiteberry|Widget Whiteberry]]: Which looks good as bamboo
* [11:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: the minimap is better too
* [11:02] [[User:Micah Giha|Micah Giha]]: notes that Which moved a safe distance from the herbivore in the area
* [11:03] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: heh, glad to hear you like the minimap :)
* [11:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah, great work!
* [11:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Weirdly though zooming in all the way doesn't seem to center on my av
* [11:04] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Woohoo, Aimee's got her mad SpaceNav vehice again, I need another wild ride like yesterday :P
* [11:04] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: ah yeah, that's cos it centres on the camera position
* [11:04] [[User:Widget Whiteberry|Widget Whiteberry]]: focus has been flakey with this last release
* [11:04] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: which is generally a bit behind your av
* [11:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Ohhhhh good call aimee
* [11:04] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: wasn't noticeable when you couldn't zoom so close
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah... well that's pretty sweet
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Glad I know about that now
* [11:05] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: hoping to make it an option what to focus on in the future
* [11:05] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Aimee: what's you next big thing for Snowglobe? Give us an exclusive hint ;-)))
* [11:05] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: your*
* [11:06] [[User:Mabalot Tatham|Mabalot Tatham]]: accepted your inventory offer.
* [11:06] [[User:Mabalot Tatham|Mabalot Tatham]]: accepted your inventory offer.
* [11:06] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: well, can't speak for anyone else, but planning to continue tweaking the minimap some more myself
* [11:06] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Apart from space invaders on minimap of course ....
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: now that I know it zooms on camera position I can't imagine it any otherr way
* [11:07] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: yeah, it's most noticeable if you use flycam, as it follows with your camera then
* [11:07] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I like it, although a tickbox to control the center would be good
* [11:07] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: would be handy to have it stay on the avatar at times though, like working in a sandbox
* [11:07] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Signpost just sent me a video of the map with calanderized events marked on it
* [11:08] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I prefer minimap always follows the flycam
* [11:08] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFx7dAN9E0Q]
* [11:08] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Aimee: just add a control to the minimap right-button menu?
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: the minimap shouldn't gett too featureful, because then it's like why not use the regular map
* [11:08] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: where your camera may be away from your avatar, but you'd like to still see who's around your body
* [11:08] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Regular map way too slow
* [11:09] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: the main map is much fast in snowglobe
* [11:09] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Turn on "show land for sale" on main map and watch what happens to performance
* [11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I guess that's not really what I meant. It seems a bit weird to have two such different maps.
* [11:10] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: but I see the minimap as more of a real time plan view of what's happening, whereas the Main map is for long distance navigation and planning
* [11:10] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Signpost's mod doesn't seem to slow down the main map that much though
* [11:10] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I view main map as long distance navigation. MiniMap is for near me.
* [11:10] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: They really have different purposes. I guess they could be merged, but that might end up in compromising both.
* [11:10] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: yes
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah they have different purposes, as befits their very different UIs
* [11:11] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: In fact I rarely use LMs for the usual places I go. Bring up map, type sim name, enter, then pick a spot to TP to
* [11:11] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: I would like to be able to use the S3 map tiles on the minimap though
* [11:11] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: that may well be something I look at soon
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I liked the proposal on sldev to make objects above/below the camera pos to fade out
* [11:11] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Aimee, that would be agreat option
* [11:11] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Fade out, instead of the little arrows?
* [11:11] [[User:Micah Giha|Micah Giha]]: Until I tried to find these office hours sites, I have not been using the main map much at all
* [11:12] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Mojito: objects not avs
* [11:12] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Oh, ok
* [11:12] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i'd just turn them off, the objects, just use the tile with terrain + objects from s3
* [11:12] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: for RPG and war games, a "fog of war" option might be good as well
* [11:12] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: I'd like to have the S3 map and recently updated objects overlayed
* [11:13] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I think disabling map is a feature of RLV, isnt it?
* [11:13] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: so you still see stuff that's moving or changing
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: And I really love Merov's notion that we don't need a map at all; you should be able to just fly really high and see very far
* [11:13] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Aimee: all textures will come from S3 in due course, no? So eventually the sources of both will be unified.
* [11:13] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
* [11:13] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: well, the minimap at the moment isn't a ready rendered texture
* [11:13] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: You know how long it takes to get up that hih? lol
* [11:14] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: it's created within the viewer
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Mojito: yeah, but maybe there'd be some supa-fast flying option
* [11:14] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: is Merov's middle name "EagleEye"? ;-)
* [11:14] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: ctrl-M is still faster
* [11:14] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: terraform land and you can watch it changing on the minimap etc.
* [11:15] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Could be just an overlay on the last recorded terrain texture though
* [11:15] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Yes, I found that useful when I was building my new island
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I guess it's not really a practical thing but I could imagine that when you hit ctrl-m, instead of bringign up the floater it'd just aot-boost your camera to 1,000,000 m
* [11:15] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i wish merov would fix bugs that make flying high very unpleasant experiene now, with half of horizon flickering in and out of existance
* [11:15] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yeah, I hate that flickering in Snowglobe
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: *auto-boost (to pick one especially egregious misspelling to correct)
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: orly, the water flickers?
* [11:16] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: The horizon flickers when you're up high
* [11:16] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yeah, but when you're high enough most of what you see is water
* [11:16] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Sometimes goes grey, sometimes blue
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hm maybe it's a shader thing
* [11:16] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: And has a white patch in front. So basically it's got some bug
* [11:17] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: well its freshly broken in 1.23
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: broken in both 1.23 and snowglobe?
* [11:17] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yup
* [11:17] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: We could add "Rise to 1000m and check horizon" to the Smoke Tests on the wiki
* [11:18] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: the purpose of tests is to find bugs, RC process found plenty, the problem is they are not fixed
* [11:18] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: could do that
* [11:18] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: its not that we don't find bugs
* [11:18] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: well there's always a tradeoff when doing a release
* [11:18] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yeah yeah
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: because fixing bugs also adds risk of introducing a new bug
* [11:19] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: "best viewer ever"... heard that song from Q already lol
* [11:19] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Snowglobe is very early in its life, should be no surprise. But 1.23.4 has same bugs, and that's quite wrong.
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: it took me a long time to understand that sort of release process
* [11:19] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: its just that Lindens and residents have a very different view of what is important to fix for a release
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: what would be ideal is if we could get away from the "shove bugs around" sort of model
* [11:20] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: 1.23.4 is full of bugs that 1.22.11 doesn't have, so clearly something went very wrong in the SVN update
* [11:20] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: what Q classifies as "nice to have" feature, people actually using SL think of as critical bugs
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah, that's awkward
* [11:20] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: And errors in design are just as much a "qaulity" issue as are crashes.
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hah true but wayyy harder to fix
* [11:21] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Mojito: very true. Unfortunately, QA isn't tasked to identify design faults
* [11:21] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: its the stubborness to admit that there is a problem that is most difficult to understand
* [11:21] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: At some point, you really do need to look at doing the viewer over form scratch, rather than cobbling more stuff onto old code.
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I generally agree that fixing crashes should take priority -- that's basically the worst sort of bug
* [11:21] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Proper threading, proper modulaization
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Not that I agree with everything Joel Spolsky says, but: [http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html]
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: (that's right, article 69, baby)
* [11:23] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Nooooooo .... we much continue to grow the monolith!!! Plenty of room for a 100 gig executable on modern drives! ;-)
* [11:23] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I dont mean throw out every line of course.
* [11:23] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, but if a bug makes parts of the scene disappear, that build becomes useless. And 1.23 makes stuff disappear in builds with a lot of sculpties
* [11:23] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: But rendering should be completely divorce from network and user I/O for example
* [11:23] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yup
* [11:23] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Our executable is really small relative to pretty much anything out there, Morgaine
* [11:24] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: so there's tons of bad stuff out there ... dooesn't mean it's right :-)
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: ah you're talking about the rendering limits, yes, that's semi-intentional so it's trickier to deal with
* [11:25] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Is that different from the Mesg Detail slider?
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: yeah, but, I'm just sayin' -- hardly our biggest problem
* [11:25] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: *mesh
* [11:25] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, there was a problem. The "fix" is a bad one. I wish LL would admit, the fix is bad and look for a correct one
* [11:25] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: saying its intentional, its supposed to be like that is not very helpful
* [11:25] [[User:Which Lindenri|Which Lindenri]]: Ashton: helllo everyone!
* [11:26] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: 90% of the viewer should be written in a safe scripting language, and only the hot spots done in C++. You'd have far fewer bugs, far greater readability, and roughly the same performance.
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: Agreed. There's risk from fixing bugs, in that you could do so badly! But we'll eventually get it right
* [11:26] [[User:Which Lindenri|Which Lindenri]]: Ashton: sorry, had to visit Jack Linden first because of the asset server issues
* [11:26] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: lol
* [11:26] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Bah
* [11:26] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: but but but C++ is what keeps programmers in work Morgaine
* [11:27] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: we'd have nothing to do but add features without the bugs
* [11:27] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, this was discovered early on in RC process... its the subborness to admit that there is a problem on LL part that is... interesting
* [11:27] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Youy could give them keypunches - that would make them even less productive.
* [11:27] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: There would still be plenty C++ to do --- the bulk of the graphics for starters.
* [11:27] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: 3D I mean.
* [11:27] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Oh sure
* [11:27] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: No C~~ in the 2D at all.
* [11:27] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Compute intensive stuff.
* [11:27] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: graphics programming should be done in Logo
* [11:27] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hehe
* [11:28] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Netwrok and user interactions, could all be in C# or something
* [11:28] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Something with built in support for thrading and locks
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah, or we could do it like EVE does, where everything is in PYthon
* [11:29] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: obj C with array synntax
* [11:29] [[User:Micah Giha|Micah Giha]]: How many users with low-end hardware would be forced out of SL with less efficient (scripted) code?
* [11:29] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Especially if client-side scripting hapens, you would have mono in there anyway
* [11:29] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Mono has a JIT compiler to real machine code
* [11:29] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Well with Python's greenlets and eventlets, you'd be able to hardness multicores quite nicely without horrendous explicit parallel threading code.
* [11:30] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: actually, smalltalk with array syntax *trying to learn F-script still)
* [11:30] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Is that F++? Mono does that too.
* [11:30] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Not sure what that is
* [11:30] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hey Dahlia :)
* [11:30] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Micah: the general idea is that in an application, the bulk of the code is spent doing things that aren't time-critical, but there's a small set of code that needs to be really fast. Using this model you could have 80% of the code be in a "slow" language but still be about 95% as performant
* [11:30] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: No, that's F# Mojito
* [11:31] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: ok
* [11:31] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I bet it would be more than 95%
* [11:31] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: On the other hand, since we have our own UI library, pretty much all that library code would want to be in C++
* [11:31] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Especially if thie higher-level language made parallelism easier
* [11:32] [[User:Micah Giha|Micah Giha]]: ummm... my point... there are still single core machines running SL clients out there
* [11:32] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Mojito: possibly, but then again even now not everyone has a dual-proc machine
* [11:32] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: P is an array of stuff like [(name, address, phone)...
* [11:32] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Just because many peple do not have a dual core machine does not mean you should not take advantage of it if it is there!
* [11:32] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The UI library does some pretty heavy data processing (e.g. iterating over a list of 1000 items in response to a mouse click)
* [11:32] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Design the code to scale with te hardware.
* [11:32] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: well SL isn't really cpu bound on a moderm processors anyway
* [11:33] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Oh? Try shadows
* [11:33] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Pity F# is MS-only, or I'd have a play. I wonder if anyone's doing an open source one, maybe translated to C# for Mono.
* [11:33] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Which, actually the array thingie in F-script optomizes for that
* [11:33] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Mojito: of course but this is Micah's fear: that someone with an entry-level system will be hurt in the quest to boost performance on high-end maachines
* [11:33] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Sure, so you do not use time-slice scheduling in compute intensive tasks for instance.
* [11:33] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: This is not rocket science.
* [11:34] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Sai: ?
* [11:34] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: That's where green threads would score, they don't need multiple cores to provide great concurrency in a single process.
* [11:34] [[User:Micah Giha|Micah Giha]]: If too much is added client side based on the assumption of computing power of multi core...
* [11:34] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: green threads?
* [11:35] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: which?
* [11:35] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Dahlia: like Python's greenlets and eventlets, and Erlang's processes. You can spawn millions, no problem
* [11:35] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Says on wiki that studies show "Linux native threads have much better performance on I/O and context switching operations."
* [11:35] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Sai: was just curious what you meant about "the array thingie"
* [11:36] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: ah, F-script extends smalltalk syntax to handle optimized operations on arrays
* [11:36] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Like APL?
* [11:36] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: yeah. Explicitly like APL
* [11:37] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: with more readable syntax I hope
* [11:37] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I'd love to know why LL never put arrays into LSL. It's one of the noddiest things to do (and was 90% done by Don 3 years ago) ... so why didn't it happen?
* [11:37] [[User:Micah Giha|Micah Giha]]: What's not readable about APL?
* [11:37] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: maybe. Definitely more compact than smalltalk or python
* [11:37] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Well, it does beat TECO for readability
* [11:37] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Even if you have fast iteration, calling <scripted function foo> on each item in an array is going to be slow
* [11:38] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: APL does improve on line noise for readability ;-)
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: risk of introducing new bugs?
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I don't actually know why LSL has no arrays (or more complex data structures)
* [11:39] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I am ok with the approach of not tacking more stuff onto LSL, and just go to C#
* [11:39] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah probably everyone sees that as more of a win
* [11:39] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Any new library functions of course would benefit both
* [11:40] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: arrays are so simple though, both in semantics and in implementation, that bugs really don't get much opportunity ... and anyway, all development introduces bugs, yet dev hasn't stopped.
* [11:40] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: And there are engineering process techniques to reduce chances of bugs getting in.
* [11:41] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: yeah, I don't claim to defend every prioritization decision we make
* [11:41] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: E.G.///
* [11:41] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: > {'oliver', 'henry', 'bertram'} uppercaseString
* {'OLIVER', 'HENRY', 'BERTRAM'}
* [11:41] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Just overload the operators.
* [11:41] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: yar, but this is optimized outside the interpreter
* [11:42] [[User:Micah Giha|Micah Giha]]: Seeing so much lag on sims with too many scripts running now.. adding complexity would only aggravate that situation
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Wow just looked at the APL page. I kinda like the idea of using extended characters as operators. Very concise
* [11:42] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: The amount of sim CPU currently being lost to running up and down lists must be huge, since all none-trivial programs do it. The savings from very simple O(1) arrays would have been vast.
* [11:42] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Argh, lists. Me hates lists
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Micah: the flip side of that argument is that adding more powerful primitives would allow people to write the same behaviors with more efficient code
* [11:43] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: lists suX0r :(
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah I also hate them
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Struggled with them for that dang escrow demo
* [11:43] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Lists are great in list-oriented languages. But LSL isn't one.
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh that's a good idea --- let's convert LSL to Erlang!
* [11:44] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: That would work :-)
* [11:44] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: LISP!
* [11:44] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
* [11:44] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Ha ha, that's actually a hilarious idea, because LSL scripts are quite a bit like Erlang processes
* [11:44] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: At least I'd be earning money from scripting .... nobody else would though :P
* [11:44] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: for about two days
* [11:44] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Keeping track of CAR and CDR diagrams gives me a headache
* [11:45] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: EWWWWW lisp :(
* [11:45] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: they are indeed quite similar to Erlang processes, in their shared-nothing paradigm. In almost nothing else though
* [11:45] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Suppose you have an array, KEY, and another array called LOCK. Both arrays are the same
* length. You need to know whether every element of KEY is equal to the corresponding LOCK
* element:
* > KEY := {1.01, 1.763, 1.808, 1.2346, 1.2272, 1.8095, 1.1}
* > LOCK := {1.01, 1.763, 1.898, 1.2346, 1.2272, 1.8095, 1.1}
* > KEY = LOCK
* [11:45] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: FALSE
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: and they can receive events, just like Erlang processes
* [11:46] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: LISP rocks! /me ducks at the rock from Dahlia
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: And they have a ridiculously limiting set of primitive data structures, just like Erlang
* [11:46] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: oops Key = Lock \ \ #&
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: kids because he loves
* [11:46] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: [http://xkcd.com/224/]
* [11:47] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hahaha, yeah, that's a classic xkcd
* [11:47] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: hurls a giant rock at Morgaine's caddaddar
* [11:47] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Well I do both LISP and Perl, so I'm covered :-)
* [11:47] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: catches the rock in a cons.
* [11:48] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Hey, C# has Lambda functions too
* [11:48] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Guido hates lambdas
* [11:48] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i really really like c#
* [11:48] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yeah, and they're quite nice in C#3
* [11:48] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: the ease of event handling, threading, built in collections, its just sweet
* [11:48] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: too bad Mono is such a POS
* [11:49] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: how so?
* [11:49] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: <3 mono
* [11:49] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: well i wrote this app that would end up using 700MB ram in mono
* [11:49] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: The only major thing missing from C# (or actually, from CLR) is green threads. It really needs those, in these days of parallel programming.
* [11:50] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: so it was more efficient for me to install Sun Virtual Box... with Windows XP running in VM
* [11:50] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: So it is mono's implemntation of CLR that is the problem, not the concept?
* [11:50] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: imagine that, XP virtual machine running on 512mb ram would outperform mono on the same box, using less cpu and ram
* [11:50] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: it probably was a difference in the method you used to measure memory
* [11:51] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Dahlia, my system load went from 10-20 to .3
* [11:51] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Windows and Linux have opposite policies in how memory and paging get allocated
* [11:52] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Latif: according to Miguel de Icaza, that used to be the case, but from Mono 2.4 onwards there's proper memory handling. -- [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Mono]
* [11:52] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hm but mono is much more embeddable, as we observe on a daily basis
* [11:52] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lies, danmed lies and statistics
* [11:53] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: mono 2.4 garbage collector and memory usage is still faaaar from optimized
* [11:53] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: All I can get is mono 2.0.1
* [11:53] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Well he ran the things that the guys on #opensim told him to run.
* [11:54] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: Miguel finally did get back to me and he gave me a few links discussing measuring memory consumption in linux, I'll try to dig them up and share them
* [11:54] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Did he not compare it to the .NET vm? Seems an oversight
* [11:54] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Cool Dahlia!
* [11:54] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: oh well sounds like Linden Lab when they refuse to acknowlege there is a problem
* [11:54] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: By the way, read the Discussion page off that Mono page
* [11:55] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: It says what he measured
* [11:55] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i know on my linux box VM running XP outperforms Mono by factor of 10
* [11:55] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Speed?
* [11:56] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Probably different JIT compilers.
* [11:56] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: system load and memory usage
* [11:56] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: (Haven't seen Miguel comment on speed, only on memory)
* [11:56] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: he can claim there is no problem all he wants :)
* [11:57] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: He didn't claim, he ran what the #opensim guys told him to run. You give him your test scenario, and your results, and it would be interesting to see his tests.
* [11:57] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Doesn't seem to me that he is claiming there is no problem, only that things are improving
* [11:57] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I think it may depend on exactly what you are doing.
* [11:57] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: dunno... I have code that works better on mono than .net and vice versa
* [11:58] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yep
* [11:58] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: People do not worry abouit locality-of-reference any more
* [11:58] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah, Latif: I'd encourage you to show someone on the Mono team your 10x-difference program, maybe they'll be able to fix your issue
* [11:58] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which is why one needs to establish the exact test scenario, and then compare .NET and Mono. Can't measure handwaving.
* [11:58] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: guess where on the grapsh i switched from running Mono to XP-in-a-VM
* [11:58] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I want to know how to get 2.4 on my Linux boxes without breaking anyting
* [11:58] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: [http://krug.dk/cacti/graph_image.php?action=view&local_graph_id=32&rra_id=2]
* [11:59] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Both ubuntu and gentoo are still at 2.0.4
* [11:59] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: memory usage graph shows the same
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It kinda bugs me when someone finds a problem, talks about it, but never tries to fix it
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Or even tell the people responsible for fixing it that there's a bug
* [11:59] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Gentoo was at 2.0.1 for Mono stable, but it had 2.4 in test branch
* [12:00] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: And it works
* [12:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, Mono folks were told gazillion times about memory consumption prolbems, but as you have seen in that link they just claim there is no problem
* [12:00] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Oh, just a masking then? I will check that
* [12:00] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Mojito: yeah, ~x86
* [12:01] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: and I cannot fix evrey problem I find lol
* [12:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: I didn't see that in the link
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Just because someone says "In this specific scenario there is no problem" doesn't mean they are also saying "in all situations there is no problem"
* [12:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It just seems to me that you have something incredibly useful: a repro. Withholding that repro from the developer seems irresponsible.
* [12:03] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: There might well be a problem, but as things stand, you *claim* there's a problem, while Miguel runs the #opensim test and *measures* that there isn't one. Measurement wins.
* [12:03] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: So provide a suitable test.
* [12:03] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: sure
* [12:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Whoa open mike
* [12:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Cyber
* [12:04] [[User:Cyber Enyo|Cyber Enyo]]: HI
* [12:04] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: sounds like he's commiting a murder
* [12:04] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: It would be to everyone's benefit to be able to show Miguel that it's crap. Just need an effective test for him to replicate.
* [12:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Can you turn off your mike?
* [12:04] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: plugs ears
* [12:04] [[User:Cyber Enyo|Cyber Enyo]]: SORRY
* [12:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Thx
* [12:04] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: sits in the silence of having voice disabled.
* [12:05] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: :)
* [12:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Ha ha ha good thing this is a text-only OH
* [12:05] [[User:Cyber Enyo|Cyber Enyo]]: ?
* [12:05] [[User:Micah Giha|Micah Giha]]: places a tick mark in the column for 'good to not be on voice'
* [12:05] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: 1. use libomv, login 10 clients, observe memory usage mono vs. .net
* [12:05] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: at times it's a benefit that sound doesnt work for SL™ on my linux box ;)
* [12:05] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: That too
* [12:05] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: we chat in text only so we can make a record of hte office hour coversation, Cyber
* [12:05] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: and mono folks are aware of it, and were told on numerous occasions
* [12:06] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: and he gone.
* [12:06] [[User:Micah Giha|Micah Giha]]: He was noewbie... only 3 days old
* [12:07] [[User:Micah Giha|Micah Giha]]: ^newbie ... darn hooves.. so hard to type with them
* [12:07] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: couldnt have been worse than the stuff I did as a 3 day old n00b ;)
* [12:07] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Maybe #opensim bods would script up a hypergridded setup for Miguel, and when he runs it, they all HG in to him so he can measure.
* [12:07] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: lots of OpenSim users use mono
* [12:07] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: quite a few
* [12:08] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: including me
* [12:08] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: btw. anyone looking for a good VM software
* [12:08] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Sun VirtualBox
* [12:08] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: highly recommend it
* [12:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I've hard good things about that, I'll have to try it
* [12:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: *heard
* [12:09] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: me too, <3 it
* [12:09] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: and its free
* [12:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Ha ha, until Oracle makes it for-pay
* [12:09] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: it's Sun
* [12:09] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: haha
* [12:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I wonder what they're going to do with their N virtualization options
* [12:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oracle bought Sun
* [12:09] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: no idea what's gonna happen with mysql either
* [12:09] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: oh didnt know that
* [12:10] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i wish ibm bought them, somehow i dislike oracle more than ibm
* [12:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: My guess would be that one of the forks (Maria or Drizzle) captures mindshare
* [12:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It's cause Larray Ellison is uglier than Sam Palmisano
* [12:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: :-P
* [12:10] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: lmao
* [12:10] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: well oracle doesn't do any open source for starters
* [12:10] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol Which
* [12:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Actually they do Latif
* [12:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Not much though
* [12:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So in general that is correct
* [12:11] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: oh well I liked PostgreSQL more anyway :P
* [12:11] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: and its BSD ;)
* [12:12] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: OK well I've overstayed my hour a bit, I should get on with the day
* [12:12] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Thank you so much for such an interesting discussion
* [12:12] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: good luck with that Which
* [12:12] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: :)
* [12:12] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Odd meeting, general tech chat :-)
* [12:12] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: take care
* [12:12] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: See you soon!
* [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]

User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2009 June 18

2009-06-18T19:13:00Z

Which Linden: New page: * [11:05] Morgaine Dinova: I felt a disturbance in the aether, as if a bamboo were materializing * [11:05] Baldi McMillan: srry * [11:05]...

* [11:05] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I felt a disturbance in the aether, as if a bamboo were materializing
* [11:05] [[User:Baldi McMillan|Baldi McMillan]]: srry
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: poof!
* [11:06] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hehe. Hiya Which!
* [11:06] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: shoot!
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: what's up y'all!
* [11:06] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Had a good holiday?
* [11:06] [[User:Soph Oh|Soph Oh]]: hi all
* [11:06] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: points, that way
* [11:06] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hiya Soph
* [11:07] [[User:Baldi McMillan|Baldi McMillan]]: Love the avi Which!
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Thanks!
* [11:07] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which avi?
* [11:07] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: :P
* [11:07] [[User:Baldi McMillan|Baldi McMillan]]: O.O
* [11:07] [[User:Baldi McMillan|Baldi McMillan]]: Which avi?
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Who?
* [11:07] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: what?
* [11:07] [[User:Baldi McMillan|Baldi McMillan]]: hmmm
* [11:07] [[User:Goldie Dastardly|Goldie Dastardly]]: Second base
* [11:08] [[User:Baldi McMillan|Baldi McMillan]]: this is technicall
* [11:08] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Moreover, why?
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So yeah -- technical topic options for tdaoy: I might be interested in discussing doing huge sums in mysql if you are
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: alternately, transient key-value stores
* [11:08] [[User:Baldi McMillan|Baldi McMillan]]: LOL
* [11:09] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Jeez no, there's nothing special about RDBMSs
* [11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: You know, one of the things that I really relish the opportunity to do is to tackle a problem and really solve it 100%
* [11:10] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Haha
* [11:10] [[User:Baldi McMillan|Baldi McMillan]]: group chatlag?
* [11:10] [[User:Baldi McMillan|Baldi McMillan]]: O.o
* [11:10] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: That doesn't happen in engineering :P
* [11:10] [[User:Baldi McMillan|Baldi McMillan]]: ;-)
* [11:10] [[User:Baldi McMillan|Baldi McMillan]]: LOL
* [11:10] [[User:Baldi McMillan|Baldi McMillan]]: LOL
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Right, too often you end up only having enough time to do something slapdash and make assumptions
* [11:11] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: One thing that arose since your last meeting was Sardonyx's blog post about group IM solutions.
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh, really? Didn't see that
* [11:11] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/technology/blog/2009/06/15/improving-the-quality-of-group-chat
* [11:12] [[User:Which Lindenri|Which Lindenri]]: Ashton: hello all
* [11:12] [[User:Baldi McMillan|Baldi McMillan]]: hello!
* [11:12] [[User:Baldi McMillan|Baldi McMillan]]: ;-)
* [11:12] [[User:Which Lindenri|Which Lindenri]]: Ashton: sorry, kinda late entry, had to do something for RL first :(
* [11:13] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Ignoring the face-saving PR that suggests LL didn't know that there was an IM problem .... :-) But the technical bits are more interesting
* [11:13] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hi Youri :-)
* [11:13] [[User:Which Lindenri|Which Lindenri]]: Ashton: hi :)
* [11:13] [[User:Baldi McMillan|Baldi McMillan]]: You mean Maggies post? [http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Message_Queue_Evaluation_Notes]
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah that's a nice deep blog post
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Definitely starting to get closer to 100% on that stuff
* [11:15] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yeah, it's a good post, just wish he hadn't *lied* about not knowing .... ;-) And if it's not a plain lie, then clearly there are communication problems inside the lab :-(
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: He didn't lie
* [11:15] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Communications troubles then.
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: One thing I've noticed is that group chat bug reporting has been unusually poor
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I mean, not to blame
* [11:15] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: makes you wonder why people bother with Jiras
* [11:15] [[User:Which Lindenri|Which Lindenri]]: Ashton: wb sai
* [11:16] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hi Sai :-)
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The best way to be helpful with the JIRAs about group chat is to be highly specific
* [11:16] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: The good news is that *in theory* there will be a major improvement in IM as soon as the fixes come through in the release schedule.
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Give a time, a region, an exeact report of the error message that was seen and what you were doing when it happened
* [11:17] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: don't go there, I recommend. The zillions of people who were highly specific about IM problems in Jira would not appreciate it. Let's just talk about the tech :-)
* [11:17] [[User:Baldi McMillan|Baldi McMillan]]: LOL
* [11:17] [[User:Baldi McMillan|Baldi McMillan]]: :-)
* [11:18] [[User:Baldi McMillan|Baldi McMillan]]: gotta point there
* [11:18] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Maybe I've just been looking at the JIRAs open since 2006
* [11:18] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I'm more interested in the solutions, PR is PR, we're not gonna change the world on that
* [11:19] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: so we're chatting about group chat?
* [11:19] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I think the best thing about that news is the instrumentation that Sard says is now available for IM.
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Well I was hoping not to, Sai
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yes, definitely instrumentation will be very helpful
* [11:19] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Sai, not really, but I pasted this -- https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/technology/blog/2009/06/15/improving-the-quality-of-group-chat
* [11:19] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: makes no neverwhichmind to me which
* [11:20] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: makes no neverwhichmind to me mind which never fear
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha ha
* [11:20] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Ok, I got one for you
* [11:20] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: The place is here. The time is right now
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So... no one's interested in transient key-value stores?
* [11:21] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Sure!
* [11:21] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: not sure what those are...
* [11:21] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Especially if it's distributed hash tables :P
* [11:21] [[User:Which Lindenri|Which Lindenri]]: Ashton: not sure what you mean by that Which, but ill bite
* [11:21] [[User:Baldi McMillan|Baldi McMillan]]: is here to learn ;-)
* [11:21] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: Im an audio engineers, transients is a dirty word
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So what would be useful for a system such as ours is a key-value store that is very fast and doesn't worry too much about saving data
* [11:22] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: erm, I'm also singular not plural
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: DHTs would be a good implementation for this
* [11:23] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It's ok aimee, the royal we is accepted here
* [11:23] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Aimee: you're mono? ;-)
* [11:23] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: LOL
* [11:23] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: A non-distributed transient key-value store is memcached
* [11:23] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Well there's an unmaintained open DHT that is begging for some new hacks .... [http://www.opendht.org/]
* [11:23] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: well, stereo on a good day
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Another one is Tokyo Tyrant, I think
* [11:24] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Memchached has a very good reputation
* [11:24] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: s/h//
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah -- only problem is it's not distributed
* [11:24] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: woah, that header does weird things to your eyes
* [11:24] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: googles for "distributing memcached"
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: "I'm announcing today that sometime on July 1, 2009, I will take OpenDHT down."
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: sad
* [11:25] [[User:Baldi McMillan|Baldi McMillan]]: yup
* [11:26] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I have a reproducer for group IM problems. is there an existing JIRA I should append it to?
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Mojito: I'll find that out for ya
* [11:26] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: But it's only the service that's going down, the code it runs is on another site
* [11:26] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Bamboo :-)))))
* [11:26] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: [http://bamboo-dht.org/]
* [11:26] [[User:Which Lindenri|Which Lindenri]]: Ashton: i have to run, looks like someone need my help =\
* [11:26] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Now that's gotta appeal ... :)
* [11:26] [[User:Which Lindenri|Which Lindenri]]: Ashton: thanks for the time here Which
* [11:27] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Seeya Your
* [11:27] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Thanks Youri, have a agreat day!
* [11:27] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Seeya Youri
* [11:27] [[User:Baldi McMillan|Baldi McMillan]]: Take care!
* [11:27] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So what's up with OpenDHT then? Was it a global DHT that everyone used?
* [11:27] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yeah, needed a lot of resources.
* [11:27] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Man great logo for that Bamboo project
* [11:28] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: relative?
* [11:28] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I came across it a month or two ago, then Bruce Perens wrote a Slashdot article about the site disappearing. Apparently the service is used by Evolution or some other package.
* [11:28] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: LOL Aimee :-)
* [11:29] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hm.... so is it low-latency?
* [11:30] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Can't see any metrics
* [11:30] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hm -- so basically what we'd want to use such a thing for is presence
* [11:31] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Found the Slashdot article, it wasn't Evolution, but Adeona -- [http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/24/2033249]
* [11:31] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: when you log in or TP the sim would stick your location in the store keyed off your agent id, and then services that wanted to know where you were could read from it
* [11:31] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: oh adeona.... I have that installed
* [11:32] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I wonder if your installation is using OpenDHT or if it's moved to something else
* [11:33] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Well it could just be silently broken too
* [11:33] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yeah
* [11:33] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Found the config file? I assume it's not hardwired.
* [11:34] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So, in general such a storage system needs to be extremely low-latency because presence checks happen all teh dang time
* [11:35] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Although it happens all the time because the population is huge, it should never be polling, so in that sense presence is an infrequently exercised service, per user.
* [11:35] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: But it's not so critical that the data is written to disk, because presence is refreshed all the tiem too so if a node dies at worst we lose 5 minutes
* [11:35] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yeah, program for the working case, not the broken exception
* [11:35] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: true, though I'd say once per 5 minutes is actually pretty frequent in aggregate
* [11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: So it'd be great if there was a scaleable tool out there that made the desired tradeoff to optimize for speed
* [11:37] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: No Which, you're suggesting polling for presence. That's broken, Presence should be a reliable state switch which only gets activated when the state changes. No polling.
* [11:37] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Presence is pushed every 5 minutes per avatar, not read
* [11:37] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Chuck out UDP, and then you don't have the problem.
* [11:37] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
* [11:37] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It's read for every IM sent
* [11:38] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: You don't need to push out presence, except when there has been a change
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I think it's pushed specifically because there are situations where it can change without successfully pushing (e.g. sim crash)
* [11:38] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: "Code for the working path, not the broken one"
* [11:39] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: True, but in this case the broken situation is pretty bad -- presence would prevent you from logging in
* [11:39] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Also missing al your IMs for <insert time period here> would be bad
* [11:40] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: You're coding for failure as standard.
* [11:40] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: If a sim crashes it will break all TCP connections it has open. The other ends see it break and behave accordingly. Just one of the benfits of chucking UDP.
* [11:40] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: As Mojito says
* [11:40] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lmao
* [11:41] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: TYou want to use technology that works all the time, not just most of the time if the wind is right.
* [11:41] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: When there is fallure, you fix the failure using exception mechanisms. You don't code the entire system on the basis of unreliable nodes.
* [11:41] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah that's a good point, if a sim crashes its neighbors could notice and somehow update presence for all agents on the carashed sim
* [11:41] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Assuming you keep a READ pening on the TCP channel.
* [11:42] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: *pending
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: However -- that would mean the second sim would have to have a complete list of the agents on the first sim. Keeping that in sync is not a trivial problem
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: actually I'm not sure I agree with you there, nearly every reliable system I'm aware of codes for failure cases
* [11:42] [[User:Baldi McMillan|Baldi McMillan]]: RL..gootta run...Love to all!
* [11:42] [[User:Baldi McMillan|Baldi McMillan]]: ;-)
* [11:42] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: you have to code for failure cases
* [11:43] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Every *reliable* system.
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The code is optimized so that success cases run fastest, but that's not the same as saying it's designed so that failures cannot be detected
* [11:43] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: every system has to code for failure cases, or you have a broken system. But you don't code the entire system for breakage. You code it for working components, and provide the components with the relaibility mechanisms.
* [11:44] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: try-catch, or other similar constructs.
* [11:44] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: If you don't do that then you can never have a working system, because all the possible failure modes combine into an explosion of failure states.
* [11:44] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hm, still don't agree. In a distributed system it's very easy to design things such that failures in one place spiral out of control in other places
* [11:44] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: And then you have a compleoity problem, so your system becomes massively non-scalable.
* [11:45] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: We mya just be violently agreeing
* [11:45] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
* [11:45] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Yes, I agree it is very easy to design a distributed system incorrectly.
* [11:45] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Well that's why you avoid failure propagation at all costs. If failures spiral out of control by affecting other parts, you have a problem. Failure containment is dead important.
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: In any case I think that writing code so that it assumes that presence is correct if it's fresh and writing other code that tries its hardest to keep it fresh is coding for the success case
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The failure case here is simple: the data isn't fresh so you assume the person is offline
* [11:47] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Let me get this straight - there is no single server on the grid that is reponsible for knowing if I am connected?
* [11:48] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Ultimately there's kind of a spread of responsibility. The sim that you're logged into is the ultimate authority
* [11:48] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The presence servers know, on an advisory basis, what sim you're on
* [11:48] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: since almost everything is passed around by UDP, I guess its impossible to ensure that the entire system is up to date
* [11:48] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
* [11:49] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: If this presence server knew when a sim went down, it could immediately mark as offline all agents that were reported to be there.
* [11:49] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: In general it's not really possible to assume an entire system of any size is up to date at any particular moment
* [11:49] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Not the way I'd do it. If presence is a reflection of state and only changes on state change, then its "age" is rather meaningless. If I only log out once a year, I expect my presence state not to change any more often than that. An 11-month old presence is still perfectly valid.
* [11:49] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Mojito: well assuming that it had a mapping of sim-> agent, which could be expensive to maintain
* [11:49] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: morg, presence is not simpley online/offline
* [11:49] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: its also where you are
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: True
* [11:50] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: so i decide to send you an IM
* [11:50] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: system needs to resolve to which sim to send that message
* [11:50] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: No, when a sim sees me arrive it tells the Presence Server "Mojito is here", and that gets recorded along with the name of the sim that rported it.
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: That's how it work
* [11:50] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Sure, where you are is state change too, but you don't need to poll for it. When you change location, you change your state info./
* [11:50] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: *works
* [11:50] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: If my sim goes down, Presence Server does a quesry on all entries reported form that sim
* [11:51] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Does a query on its database that is
* [11:51] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: How do you guarantee that the Presence server knows the sim is down?
* [11:51] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: A s Mojito says :-)
* [11:51] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: BY USING TCP
* [11:51] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: What if the host loses its NIC?
* [11:51] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Then buy it another one :P
* [11:51] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Mojito, you you think presence server should maintain 30k tcp conections to the sims?
* [11:51] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
* [11:51] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: No, you build them in a tree
* [11:52] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Say at the rack level
* [11:52] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: TCP timeouts are 180 seconds ... polling might be cheaper
* [11:53] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: If you keep a read pending on a TCP channel, you find out pretty fast.
* [11:53] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: and then you have the edge cases, i tp from sim a to sim b, sim a says to the presence system latif left, which sends me an im, presence says latif is not in any sim, im goes to my email, and then sim b reports the presence of me arriving there
* [11:53] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Were's talking about LANs. If the data isn't reaching you in less than a millisecond, you already have an issue. You sure don't wait for TCP timeout, you know long before.
* [11:54] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: morg, not true, presence servers and sims can be continents away, most certanly in different data centers
* [11:54] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Put one watchdog process per rack that locally keeps an eye on the sims in that rack. Then reports to a central place.
* [11:54] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah Latif is right -- there's a lot of race conditions
* [11:54] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: That is why it has to be hierarchial
* [11:54] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Rack, Room, Building.
* [11:54] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Latif: you're right, post interop, the rules change. But I don't think LL is concerned about that right now :-)
* [11:55] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Morg, its not post interop its right now, presence system and sim hosts can be in different data centers across the country
* [11:55] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: 30k servers throwing UDP packets at each other is too complicated.
* [11:55] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Another one is : I TP to a new region and crash it immediately -- the presence system might show that I'm logged into the old region stilll
* [11:55] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: The old server will report you leaving
* [11:55] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: And also we have to assume that the presence server never has any failures of its own
* [11:56] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Redundant, High Availability
* [11:56] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Latif: so you set up the timeouts to suit your particular case. Inside a single datacenter, it's still sub-millisecond RTT.
* [11:56] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Mojito: but then you have the other race condition which is that the old server reports you're leaving but it takes a while to upload your assets so you spend a lot of tiem "in limbo" -- to whom to IMs go then?
* [11:56] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: The handoff has to have multiple states
* [11:57] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: There is a period while to destination server is loading your assests, BEFORE the leaving server can really complete the handoff
* [11:57] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: You are indeed in limbo duuring that period
* [11:57] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: So the IMs go to the old server
* [11:57] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Once handoff is coimplete, the old server passes them over to the new server
* [11:58] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: What if the sending of "pending leaving Region A" message gets to the presence server after the "Arriving at Region B" message?
* [11:58] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: AFK a sec while I log into OSgrid
* [11:58] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: There is thins thing in data processing called the "two phase commit".
* [11:58] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Two phase commits are extremely time-intensive
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Like, really laggy
* [11:59] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: As far as the Prsence Server is concerned, it only needs to know when the handoff is complete.
* [11:59] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: TPing is already laggy, if the new server cant fetch the assets in time
* [12:00] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Until the destination sim has enough info about you, it is not in any shape to take responsibility for your messages
* [12:00] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: A->B Prepare for Mojito
* [12:00] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: B->A Ok, Mojito is ready here
* [12:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Basically though, the system is such that it isn't that big a deal if one agent's presence is wrong for a short time
* [12:01] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: A->B Ok, you have her
* [12:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: That's basically what happens now
* [12:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I think it's called "ushering"
* [12:01] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: "unable to start a chat session with 'Friends of Raglan Shire'. The session no longer exists"
* [12:01] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Oh right I was finding that jira
* [12:02] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: reads back
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Aimee: SVC-1509
* [12:02] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I get "Unable to send your message to the chat session with [RECIPIENT]. Error making request, please try later"
* [12:02] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: :)
* [12:02] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I can get that message right now, any time you want
* [12:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Mojito: I think same JIRA
* [12:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: which group?
* [12:03] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: Friends of Raglan Shire
* [12:03] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Aimee: yeah, that's happening a lot now on incoming IMs
* [12:03] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Hippo Technologies User Group, which has 1390 members
* [12:03] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: happens all the time
* [12:03] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: This happens when I try to SEND a message to that group
* [12:04] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: That is normally a very chatty groupl. I have not heard form it in a few days
* [12:04] [[User:Thunderclap Morgridge|Thunderclap Morgridge]]: the mentors group too
* [12:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ok, cool, so errors on send are in a different category than errors on receipt
* [12:04] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Proabbly
* [12:04] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Or different symptoms of a single cause
* [12:05] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: yeah, the one i said happens on every receive from that group, unless I pre-empt it and open the group myself
* [12:05] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Rememeber the group listener is stopped if you click off the IM tab. It's a totally terrible feature.
* [12:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: better for debugging to treat them as separate
* [12:05] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: in your opinion morg
* [12:05] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Yes, SVC-1509 is the one I get, the variant without the name of the group in it.
* [12:06] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Very reproducible
* [12:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: there's two error messages, then, possibly two bugs there....gross
* [12:06] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Latif: no Latif, not in my opinion. It's objectively bad because there is no way of turning all your 25 group listener back on short of clicking all the tabs or relogging. So it's crap by design for users. Was only done to reduce the IM load for LL.
* [12:07] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Sometimes it says the name, other times [RECIPIENT]. I get the latter
* [12:07] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Morg, its objectively bad because you don't like it, its the only critearia you accept
* [12:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Do not assume malicious intent where design cruft is entirely a sufficent explanation
* [12:07] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Latif: has nothing to do with liking or disliking. Having to click all your tabs doesn't scale. You gonna click 1000 tabs when you have 100 groups?
* [12:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ok, I should probably run
* [12:08] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: You really don't have your head screwed on a lot of the time Latif
* [12:08] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: morg, still you personal preference any way you want to twist it
* [12:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Whoa! Let's keep it nice
* [12:08] [[User:Thunderclap Morgridge|Thunderclap Morgridge]]: hey which you were on the master office hours list
* [12:08] [[User:Thunderclap Morgridge|Thunderclap Morgridge]]: this is cool but I stumbled hefre
* [12:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hi Thunderclap.
* [12:08] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, I'm used to get insults from her, doesn't bother me :)
* [12:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Ha ha ha
* [12:08] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I'm no diplomat. But someone who reckons that clicking 1000 tabs is reasonable is clearly not rational.
* [12:08] [[User:Thunderclap Morgridge|Thunderclap Morgridge]]: and why are you a bamboo plant if you dont mind me asking
* [12:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: For stylistic reasons!
* [12:09] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hahaha
* [12:09] [[User:Thunderclap Morgridge|Thunderclap Morgridge]]: awesome
* [12:09] [[User:Thunderclap Morgridge|Thunderclap Morgridge]]: you have a bear or a miniature plant bear
* [12:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I hope to see you again next time!
* [12:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I'll hook you up with a bear
* [12:09] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: i hope space server gets better haha
* [12:09] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: See you next time Which :-)
* [12:09] [[User:Thunderclap Morgridge|Thunderclap Morgridge]]: thanks
* [12:09] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: take care which :)
* [12:09] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: bye :)
* [12:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Thanks everybody!

Eventlet

2009-06-07T16:40:40Z

Which Linden: /* Eventlet */ Updated to include correct repository info, and also removing bullet point about SSL since we fixed that.

= Eventlet =

Eventlet is a networking library written in Python. It achieves high scalability by using [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-blocking_IO#Select.28.2Fpoll.29_loop non-blocking io] while at the same time retaining high programmer usability by using [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coroutine coroutines] to make the non-blocking io operations appear blocking at the source code level.

* Example code: [[Eventlet/Examples]]
* PyPI entry: http://pypi.python.org/pypi/eventlet/
* Subversion repository (note: very out of date): http://svn.secondlife.com/svn/eventlet
* Mercurial (hg) repository: http://bitbucket.org/fzzzy/eventlet/overview/
* Trac page: http://svn.secondlife.com/trac/eventlet
* Mailing list: https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/eventletdev

== Documentation ==

[[Eventlet/Documentation]]

== Releases ==

{| cellpadding="6"
|-
| '''Name''' || '''Date''' || '''URL'''
|-
| 0.8 || 2008-10-13 || http://pypi.python.org/pypi/eventlet/0.8/
|-
| 0.7 || July 29, 2008 || http://pypi.python.org/pypi/eventlet/0.7
|-
| 0.6.1 || July 7, 2008 || http://pypi.python.org/pypi/eventlet/0.6.1
|-
| beta-1 || Aug 24, 2007 || [http://svn.secondlife.com/trac/eventlet/changeset/8/branches/beta-1?old_path=%2F&format=zip] [http://svn.secondlife.com/svn/eventlet/branches/beta-1]
|}

== Requirements ==

Eventlet runs on Python version 2.3 or greater, with the following dependencies:
* [http://cheeseshop.python.org/pypi/greenlet greenlet]
* [http://pyopenssl.sourceforge.net/ pyOpenSSL] if you want to use ssl sockets
* (if running python versions < 2.4) a deque object in a <code>collections</code> module. One option is to copy [http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/259179 this deque] into a file called <code>collections.py</code>.

== Eventlet at Linden ==

eventlet is the networking library used to implement the [[backbone]] architecture. Backbone is primarily an http server, and as such uses the eventlet.httpd module. eventlet itself is responsible only for handling http protocol-level semantics; "web framework" concepts such as URL traversal and html rendering are implemented in a separate python package, [[mulib]].

== Limitations ==

* Not enough test coverage -- the goal is 100%, but we are not there yet.
* Not tested on Windows
** There are probably some simple Unix dependencies we introduced by accident. If you're running Eventlet on Windows and run into errors, let us know.
** The eventlet.processes module is known to not work on Windows.

== Eventlet History ==

Eventlet began life as Donovan Preston was talking to Bob Ippolito about coroutine-based non-blocking networking frameworks in Python. Most non-blocking frameworks require you to run the "main loop" in order to perform all network operations, but Donovan wondered if a library written using a trampolining style could get away with transparently running the main loop any time i/o was required, stopping the main loop once no more i/o was scheduled. Bob spent a few days during PyCon 2006 writing a proof-of-concept. He named it eventlet, after the coroutine implementation it used, [http://cheeseshop.python.org/pypi/greenlet greenlet]. Donovan began using eventlet as a light-weight network library for his spare-time project [http://soundfarmer.com/Pavel/trunk/ Pavel], and also began writing some unittests.

* http://svn.red-bean.com/bob/eventlet/trunk/

When Donovan started at Linden Lab in May of 2006, he added eventlet as an svn external in the indra/lib/python directory, to be a dependency of the yet-to-be-named [[backbone]] project (at the time, it was named restserv). However, including eventlet as an svn external meant that any time the externally hosted project had hosting issues, Linden developers were not able to perform svn updates. Thus, the eventlet source was imported into the linden source tree at the same location, and became a fork.

Bob Ippolito has ceased working on eventlet and has stated his desire for Linden to take it's fork forward to the open source world as "the" eventlet.

== License ==
Eventlet is made available under the terms of the open source MIT license below.

'''EVENTLET'''

Copyright (c) 2005-2006, Bob Ippolito

Copyright (c) 2007, Linden Research, Inc.

Permission is hereby granted, free of charge, to any person obtaining a copy of this software and associated documentation files (the "Software"), to deal in the Software without restriction, including without limitation the rights to use, copy, modify, merge, publish, distribute, sublicense, and/or sell copies of the Software, and to permit persons to whom the Software is furnished to do so, subject to the following conditions:

The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be included in all copies or substantial portions of the Software.

THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINFRINGEMENT. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHORS OR COPYRIGHT HOLDERS BE LIABLE FOR ANY CLAIM, DAMAGES OR OTHER LIABILITY, WHETHER IN AN ACTION OF CONTRACT, TORT OR OTHERWISE, ARISING FROM, OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE SOFTWARE OR THE USE OR OTHER DEALINGS IN THE SOFTWARE.

User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2009 June 4

2009-06-04T19:11:42Z

Which Linden: New page: * [11:03] Latif Khalifa: pretty shiny things, can't help it * [11:04] Elric Ember: :D * [11:04] Morgaine Dinova: The...

* [11:03] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: pretty shiny things, can't help it
* [11:04] [[User:Elric Ember|Elric Ember]]: :D
* [11:04] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: There's the Which cloud
* [11:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hey there
* [11:04] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hiya Which!
* [11:04] [[User:Yann Dufaux|Yann Dufaux]]: hello Saij, Tech and morgaine!! :D
* [11:04] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hiya Yann!
* [11:04] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Salut!
* [11:04] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hey witch, you blend in with the environment so well, one cannot see you ;)
* [11:04] [[User:Yann Dufaux|Yann Dufaux]]: a vas bien? lol
* [11:04] [[User:Yann Dufaux|Yann Dufaux]]: :P
* [11:05] [[User:Yann Dufaux|Yann Dufaux]]: qui parle franais ici! :) Wiche you speak french? ;)
* [11:05] [[User:Yann Dufaux|Yann Dufaux]]: Which*
* [11:05] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Oui, tres bien :-)
* [11:05] [[User:Elric Ember|Elric Ember]]: :D
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: are you saying it's hard to discern slightly-smaller banboo stalks from their identical-but-slightly-larger brethren?
* [11:06] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: which would those be, Which?
* [11:06] [[User:Flimsey Freenote|Flimsey Freenote]]: are you a cutting Which ?
* [11:06] [[User:Yann Dufaux|Yann Dufaux]]: its sane of the game, try to find charlye in your land :)
* [11:06] [[User:Elbereth Witte|Elbereth Witte]]: do you weigh as much as a duck, which?
* [11:06] [[User:Yann Dufaux|Yann Dufaux]]: same*
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I bet I don't float
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: And, Yann, if I spoke French I'd just embarrass myself
* [11:07] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: oh I don't know, tie you togeth and you'd make a good raft :D
* [11:07] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: wee
* [11:07] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: No, Which is an Elder Bamboo. I think there's a primordial panda in the story somewhere, not my forte.
* [11:08] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I seem to remember the pandas saying "It's bamboo all the way down".
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so just anecdotally, how has group chat (not notices) been these days?
* [11:09] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: wonders if HiPiHi uses a bamboo tube as the default building element rather than a plywood cube
* [11:09] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Very well actually, I've only seen one error in a whole week, yesterday.
* [11:10] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: And that error was an unusual one, error box popped up when an IM came in on a channel that didn't have an open tab.
* [11:10] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Aimee: and pandas instead of teapots in GL? :-)
* [11:10] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: :D
* [11:10] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: well, for a bit, the aritificial intelligence group had non-stop errors last week
* [11:11] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: but the rest of my groups were fine
* [11:11] [[User:Elbereth Witte|Elbereth Witte]]: Cadie's openGL panda, I can see that
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: the sort of "cannot connect to group chat" errors?
* [11:11] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: error connecting to <recipient>
* [11:12] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: yeah, been seeing a few of those
* [11:12] [[User:Elric Ember|Elric Ember]]: nods with the same experience
* [11:12] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ok good to know
* [11:13] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: but as I said, was only 1 group and only for a specific period. But at least one other person in that group was shoowing the same issue
* [11:13] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: would you happen to know when the IM tab functionality was changed to unregister one from a group's IM on closing the IM tab?
* [11:13] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: its been like that forever
* [11:13] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: No it hasn't.
* [11:13] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: been at least a year or two
* [11:14] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: No it hasn't.
* [11:14] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: I recall that they changed it, but it was Long, Long Ago
* [11:14] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: No it wasn;'t.
* [11:14] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: morg vs. the resto of the world lol
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: is slowness still an issue?
* [11:14] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yup
* [11:14] [[User:lufpleh Obstreperous|lufpleh Obstreperous]]: agres with Saijanai
* [11:14] [[User:Flimsey Freenote|Flimsey Freenote]]: yes slowness was my biggest issue
* [11:14] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: morg, ok you are right, the rest of the world is wrong :P
* [11:14] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: could swear it was last year if not the year before, Morgaine
* [11:14] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: the architecture was changed in 2006
* [11:15] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: (or could it be that morg didn't notice it before :P)
* [11:15] [[User:Elric Ember|Elric Ember]]: Only had one instance of group chat lag, but it was very brief
* [11:15] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I know it's not so, because I used to get my Live Music Enthusiasts group IM tab reaappearing every few minutes, despite me closing the tab each time. Used to do that dozens of times a day.
* [11:16] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Morg, yeah that mega annoying thig was removed circa 2006-7
* [11:16] [[User:Elric Ember|Elric Ember]]: Too bad there isn't a Mute Group Chat feature without going into Busy mode
* [11:16] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Were Jiras working then Latif?
* [11:17] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: anyway, do we have anything on agenda today? :D
* [11:18] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: It's actually more annoying now than before. Now I have to either open up all 25 tabs manually, or relog. Otherwise I can't tell if I'm receiving IMs for all my groups.
* [11:18] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: power nap time?
* [11:19] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: There is currently no way of resetting IM to the state just after login.
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah I agree that the group chat UI needs to be "open tab == listening for messasges"
* [11:19] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Ie. you can't set it to "Listener on, no tab open".
* [11:19] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: it is like that which
* [11:19] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: it is like that, and that's wrong.
* [11:20] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: i can't counr how many times i've mismessage dur to the message UI.:-(
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It's not currently like that
* [11:20] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Because it means that people either have to open all 25 tabs manually, or relog. Else they don't know that they're receiving all their messages.
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Currently when you log on, you start listening for messages in all groups that you're in
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: But no tabs are opened
* [11:20] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which is correct
* [11:20] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: If a message comes in a tab is opened
* [11:21] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: which morg want to make it even worse, she wants im tab to open even after you manually close it
* [11:21] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: But you have no idea whether you're "listening" to a group's chatter or have closed the tab and will never receive any more messages
* [11:21] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: doesn't always work that way though
* [11:21] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: now when you close im tab, you leave that session
* [11:21] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: That is correct operation Which, just after login. To expect all 25 tabs to be open just to receive all your messages is moronic, and non-scalable. If we had 100 groups, or 1000, would you want 1000 tabs to be open to not lose messages?
* [11:21] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: myself and my partner are in several of the same groups ...
* [11:21] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: which is good, i don't want to hear some group chatter i juist close the session
* [11:21] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: I like to have two close buttons, the currnt close and close but still listen.
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: A better design is to just have a 1:1 relationship between tabs and group chats.
* [11:22] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: and frequently she doesn't get group chat that I am unless she opens the group
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I think the fact that the tabs are unweildy is a separate UI problem
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: But yes I do think that if you wanted to listen to 1000 groups that your interface will get cluttered quickly
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It happens now
* [11:22] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Each group simply needs a tickbox to say if it's listening. It should have nothing to do withg tabs opened or closed. I might want tab open to read, without receiving anything.
* [11:22] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, so you would have us have 25 tabs open in oreder to get a message from 25 groups?
* [11:23] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It's just that if you're listening to 1000 groups that have no chatter that it doesn't get cluttered.... kind of a "tree falls in a forest" sort of deal
* [11:23] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: yes, I don't see what's so weird about that
* [11:23] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: would you want 1000 tabs open in order to listen to 1000 groups? Non-scalable, sorry.
* [11:23] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Listening to 1000 groups is, itself non-scaleable
* [11:23] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yes it is scalable
* [11:23] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, you obviously don't spend a lot of time in world :D
* [11:23] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: The beggest imporovments to the tabs is to have them shrink down dymatilly like firefox deos now when tabs start to get crouded. Current there is one huge long tab open due to long group name and it pushes the other tab into oblivion.
* [11:23] [[User:Elbereth Witte|Elbereth Witte]]: wo do I have to kill in order to be able to subscripbe to a mere 30 groups?
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I think that people are using group chat for something other than chat
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I mean look at our message rate here, it's roughly a message every 2 seconds
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: If every chat you were in had this rate it'd be too fast to read
* [11:25] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: group messaging is mostly sparse. In the Live Music area of SL, in which every musician has a fan group, you could be a fan of 1000 musicians easily, and yet only receive a couple of messages an hour.
* [11:25] [[User:lufpleh Obstreperous|lufpleh Obstreperous]]: 1000 groups at this rate would be "interesting"!!!
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Is there any other chat client in the world that lets you listen to 1000 chats without having at least a tiny bit of UI for each chat?
* [11:25] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: Try the SL Discovery group chat, it more then one per second usally. :-)
* [11:25] [[User:Mystical Demina|Mystical Demina]]: i think the issue is more simple, i should always get group chat, the only that it should not do is auto open a tab and show i have a new IM. Seems just need s check box to turn on or off the auto open. But what i do't want to loose is the most recent chat messages
* [11:25] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Number of groups has nothing to do with rate of messaging.
* [11:25] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: there are a lot of support groups which are not used for chatter oftern, but say a scripter has a question, opens up scripters group, send message and all people in that group get his question popup in a group im tab. Having all of them have that tab open all the time would mean nobody will get any answers. some in world businesses depend on their customers contacting them in that way too. so current behavour is what residents expect
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Mystical: yes I agree that group chat should not be conflated with IM
* [11:26] [[User:Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: A better solution: untie chat from groups and go to an opt-in channel system, like most other online worlds (and IRC).
* [11:26] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: in that way SL is *better* than most IM client out there
* [11:26] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Talarus: also a good option
* [11:26] [[User:Flimsey Freenote|Flimsey Freenote]]: nods at Tal i was just thinking that
* [11:26] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: this meeting chat is at one extreme end, and the very sparse real example I gave your of SL Live Musicians is at the other. Messaging can be extremely sparse.
* [11:27] [[User:Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: Would also probably allow for a more streamlined and less laggy backend, since there is a lot of good server code already out there to do it. :)
* [11:27] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: Just breaking off groups from land functions should help things.
* [11:27] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hm ok Morgaine but I'd argue that it's not really chat then, it's more like a forum or announcement group
* [11:27] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Assuming you support arts in SL, you have to allow artists to have fan groups. And people certainly have more than 25 favourite musicians.
* [11:28] [[User:Flimsey Freenote|Flimsey Freenote]]: in WoW you can opt into a group and then color the text, very handy for watching several chats
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I think that there's a lot of things wrong with the current UI that make it hard to imagine a better future
* [11:28] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: support groups would be killed in the current model was changed to 1:1
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: One of the major problems is that the tabs-along-the-bottom are really really unweildy
* [11:28] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: Oo..new option for groups owners to set color of there text seen by other, but at the same time, can be changed by the end user also.
* [11:29] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: it's totally normal live chat, just sparse. Every once in a blue moon (like once a day for many musicians), the musician announces a show, and then there are several minutes of live chatter between fans. A great use case, extremely popular. But sparse.
* [11:29] [[User:Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: Multiple tab rows? Channel selection box down one side? Lots of UI options to fix the "scroll across" issue.
* [11:30] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: morg, that's not to different use case from my support group thing... hours of inactivity.. question, a lot of chatter for some time... back to silent mode
* [11:30] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Hm yeah that's a good point
* [11:30] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: Witch, shrink the un-foucus tabs down with(wide) wise to fit more tabs in there would help.
* [11:30] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Just reuse the Friends screen for Groups, simple. You already have checkboxes per line. Just make one of those checkboxes an IM listener enable.
* [11:31] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The thing about our current system is that you open a tab as soon as any chatter starts, so if you're logged in for a while, eventually all your groups get opened into tabs
* [11:31] [[User:Elric Ember|Elric Ember]]: nods. Friends Conferences and Group Chat seem functionally similar from a user perspective except for the opt-in aspect.
* [11:31] [[User:Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: yup. As well as IMs
* [11:31] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, unless you don't want to be in chat with some group, just close the tab and its gone for that session
* [11:31] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yup, I don't know what a better UI for managing the tabs would look like but I'm sure it's out there
* [11:32] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: More then on row of tabs. Row one is groups only, row two is IM only.
* [11:32] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: right but assuming that you do want to be in the chat with all your groups (from Morgaines 1000-group example)
* [11:32] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: on=one
* [11:32] [[User:Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: UI design: Art AND Science wrapped into one realm. :D
* [11:32] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I really think borrowing from other chat clients would be helpful
* [11:32] [[User:Flimsey Freenote|Flimsey Freenote]]: i would like to log in invisible to all, so that i dont get any messages or make people mad for not responding because im busy .. might save you some resources :)
* [11:32] [[User:Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: That's why going with an opt-in system would be better. Sometimes, I just don't want to chat.
* [11:32] [[User:Elbereth Witte|Elbereth Witte]]: I don't care for function taking a back seat to form
* [11:32] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, I'm talking about current way people use it,... not some imaginary extreme case
* [11:33] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I like Colloquy, and its chat management is basically a vertical line of tabs
* [11:33] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: Builders would LOVE to log in invisiable, ie: no chat/IM at all.
* [11:33] [[User:Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: Then there are times afterwards that I do want to chat, but I have to manually open the group chat windows I closed in order to get more chat.
* [11:33] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Latif: it's not imaginary and it's not extreme. There are a hell of a lot more than 1000 musicians in SL, right now, and they all have fan groups.
* [11:34] [[User:Elbereth Witte|Elbereth Witte]]: extremes are good test cases
* [11:34] [[User:Flimsey Freenote|Flimsey Freenote]]: Morgaine i agree, i am a huge SL music fan and its dissapointing to say the least ..
* [11:34] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: Set the buzy respoce to "Seconlife user is not only, message will be stored for later retrievel" hehe
* [11:34] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Another UI issue is that group chat appears onscreen in the same place that local chat does if the window isn't open, which interferes with conversations
* [11:34] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: yep I like Colloquy, nice to see the count of incoming messages on each tab there too
* [11:34] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: only=online
* [11:34] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I usually exit any group chats I'm in prior to these OH for example
* [11:34] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Currently we have to choose 25 only musicians to be fans of, it's quite unfair to the rest.
* [11:34] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Which, that is fixed in 1.23
* [11:34] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: viewr
* [11:34] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: so you can see at a glance how active each channel is without going into them
* [11:34] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Latif: !!! I was running that, is it a pref?
* [11:34] [[User:Flimsey Freenote|Flimsey Freenote]]: cant have 25 Morgaine, if you ahve any other groups too
* [11:35] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yup
* [11:35] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: sawheet
* [11:35] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Flimsey: yeah, I missed the word "max" out :P
* [11:35] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Prefs -> coms -> Include IMin chat console
* [11:35] [[User:Flimsey Freenote|Flimsey Freenote]]: joins a group of people that listen to the other groups that she wants to hear
* [11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha a meta-group
* [11:36] [[User:Elric Ember|Elric Ember]]: :D nice
* [11:36] [[User:lufpleh Obstreperous|lufpleh Obstreperous]]: thought 1.23 hd some changes regarding IM's in local chat and chat history
* [11:36] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: They made a couple changes to that. The previous setting was moved to debug and a new setting to reflect the new behivour
* [11:36] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yeah, works pretty well in 1.23
* [11:37] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: awesome, I guess we can close the case on that one!
* [11:37] [[User:lufpleh Obstreperous|lufpleh Obstreperous]]: expected Groups back on the oie menu on this latest release
* [11:38] [[User:Mystical Demina|Mystical Demina]]: using 1.23 and when i open Fashion Conslidated i get "Unable to start new chat seesion" message
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The pie menu?
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Mystical: right now that's happening?
* [11:38] [[User:Mystical Demina|Mystical Demina]]: yes
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hm
* [11:38] [[User:Mystical Demina|Mystical Demina]]: tired several times can relog and try, it is on other computer
* [11:39] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: I've been getting a new tab for a group chat, then before I even have a chance to read it, another errorr window pops up saying the chat is no more and CLOSES the tab. *grr...*
* [11:39] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: No don't worry about relogging, I'm just checking the logs here
* [11:39] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Note that closing an IM tab isn't just a client-side listener disable. If the group had only two people listening before, then after one person closes the tab, the other person gets an error message on attempting to send, ie. "No other participant". So it couples through to server.
* [11:39] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yup
* [11:40] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: It removes your name from the server-side list
* [11:40] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Which is fair, it'd suck if from the perspective of the sender they saw many people but didn't know none of them could hear her
* [11:41] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: But that's so now too. People sleep with client on after all.
* [11:41] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ah true
* [11:41] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but nonetheless there are degrees here
* [11:42] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: Hmm...I think I will open up a feature jira request for more then one row of tabs.
* [11:42] [[User:lufpleh Obstreperous|lufpleh Obstreperous]]: can you rejoin a group IM session by opneing/starting a new one?
* [11:42] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: (returns for afkness)
* [11:42] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: luf, yes you can
* [11:42] [[User:Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: Yup, lufpleh
* [11:42] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Which is the plant?
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: lufpleh: yeah
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: I am the plant
* [11:43] [[User:Mystical Demina|Mystical Demina]]: i find skyps new verticle list pretty good for managing converstions, in stead of horizaontal rows
* [11:43] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: I thought you were furniture lol.
* [11:43] [[User:Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: The only time you get a different "session" is when you do conferences.
* [11:43] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: points ... that one is the plant :D
* [11:43] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Oh, an idea. How about patching the viewer to work like PyOGP? Ie. allow it to login N other agents, each of them subscribed to 25 groups. Then the viewer could gather all the IMs from 25*N groups, LL's limit overcome :-)))
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Common misconception
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: good one, we'd never notice that at all :-)
* [11:43] [[User:Elric Ember|Elric Ember]]: pffffff!....HA.HA HAHA.
* [11:43] [[User:Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: Ack.. that's a hack and a half. :P
* [11:43] [[User:lufpleh Obstreperous|lufpleh Obstreperous]]: Tecwolf dont you dare, took a huge effort to get LL to reduce foorprint of Comms window, dont want it any biigger
* [11:43] [[User:Flimsey Freenote|Flimsey Freenote]]: lol
* [11:44] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Sai: new name for your OGP client: N25 :-)
* [11:44] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: Witch is the plant? <--- new replacemnet for "Who's on first?" :-)
* [11:45] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: it's perfectly allowed by the ToS. And what's more, it would crease no significant load. As I said, musicians groups are SPARSE, in terms of messaging load.
* [11:45] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: would create*
* [11:45] [[User:Elbereth Witte|Elbereth Witte]]: so far there seems to be a subscription load
* [11:45] [[User:lufpleh Obstreperous|lufpleh Obstreperous]]: yay for more groups
* [11:46] [[User:Flimsey Freenote|Flimsey Freenote]]: isnt LL developing new things for music to begin next year? hopes they address this before that
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yeah there's a cost in database load and load for registering for all those groups
* [11:46] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: The actual message delivery is not the expensive part
* [11:46] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Messaging should not go anywhere near the database, once registered.
* [11:47] [[User:lufpleh Obstreperous|lufpleh Obstreperous]]: is group mebership load more expensive than friends?
* [11:47] [[User:Elbereth Witte|Elbereth Witte]]: friends seem to carry less state
* [11:47] [[User:Elric Ember|Elric Ember]]: Could test pilot N25, limiting N = 2 and profile that
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Mystical, do you mind trying to connect to Fashion Consolidated's chat again?
* [11:48] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: lufpleh: not sure
* [11:48] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Elric: well said. What we don't measure, we don't actually know.
* [11:48] [[User:Mystical Demina|Mystical Demina]]: same message
* [11:48] [[User:Mystical Demina|Mystical Demina]]: says i do not have that ablitiy
* [11:48] [[User:Mystical Demina|Mystical Demina]]: just clicking IM/chat
* [11:49] [[User:Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: Sounds like a group role ability issue
* [11:49] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Interesting Mystical...the simulator isn't loggin anything for that
* [11:50] [[User:Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: Are you in a role that allows chat in that group?
* [11:50] [[User:Mystical Demina|Mystical Demina]]: i first got it, just sitting ther, i got the mesage, so looks like it tried to tell me i had a group chat
* [11:50] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Happens sometimes as a bug too. I've seen that permissions response for Groupies maybe 5-6 times, had to relog to fix it.
* [11:50] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Mogaine, are we talking about when the group message appears and it gives you a warning saying it doesn't exist, and it disappears again, or is this something different?
* [11:51] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Different
* [11:51] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: It's when double clicking on a group to open tab
* [11:51] [[User:Mystical Demina|Mystical Demina]]: not sure you can turn of IM chat in a group, but i have notice sending perms
* [11:52] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: lufpleh, I did dare. [http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-13855] :-)
* [11:52] [[User:Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: yes, you can
* [11:52] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: well it sounds like there's some sort of bug either in the viewer or the simulator....so maybe the underlying services aren't the place to focus our attention, and we should instead be trying to crush those bugs
* [11:52] [[User:Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: It's now one of the role abilities.
* [11:52] [[User:Mystical Demina|Mystical Demina]]: i tried it here, got the same message with 1.22 client
* [11:52] [[User:Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: In fact, here is what that group says in its charter: * Group IMs STRICTLY disallowed - use the group Fashion Consolidated Cafe for chatter. Spammers will be removed.
* [11:53] [[User:lufpleh Obstreperous|lufpleh Obstreperous]]: Mystical, think the reaoning is why bother be a member of a group if you dont want to recive the IM's
* [11:53] [[User:Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: So it is likely that chat is turned off in that group
* [11:53] [[User:lufpleh Obstreperous|lufpleh Obstreperous]]: its why mny groups have sub groups which are no IM
* [11:53] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: luf, groups are used for access permissions as well
* [11:53] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Did not know that
* [11:53] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: (didn't know about no-IM groups)
* [11:53] [[User:Mystical Demina|Mystical Demina]]: thing is, i want all messages, for me i just don't want to have new IM status which i can't seprate from an new IM
* [11:54] [[User:Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: Yeah, open up a group, look at the abilities.
* [11:54] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Unfortunately Tal, not all group owners are so studious as to change group abilities even if they have the capacity :)
* [11:54] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Definitely the evidence is pointing towards the need for splitting apart groups into their various use cases
* [11:54] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: There usally two groups for major venders. One that has groups chat turned off so that group is just for notices of announmnets and other group for chatter. Why they do this? There is NO option to block group chat like you can for notices.
* [11:55] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Also, it can depend on the situation. Sometimes you want to receive group IMs, and other times you don't want to be bothered, but you can't just join and leave the group all the time.
* [11:55] [[User:Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: Aye, that's true, but that is likely the issue in this case.
* [11:55] [[User:Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: (Mystical's case, that is)
* [11:55] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: If multiple rows of tabs is implemented, then I recommend that a "Maximum number of tabs shown" field be added. Because when we have 1000 groups, I doubt that a whole HD screen of IM tabs would be very ergonomic. :P
* [11:55] [[User:Mystical Demina|Mystical Demina]]: agree sebastean, or some groups i want to get the new IM status, some i just want to monitor
* [11:55] [[User:lufpleh Obstreperous|lufpleh Obstreperous]]: yay Techwolf, wecould double our groups by adding a no IM switch!
* [11:55] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: get real, lindens are strugling with makin 25 groups work ;)
* [11:55] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: heh, tab ticker
* [11:56] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: make them slowly scroll past
* [11:56] [[User:Elbereth Witte|Elbereth Witte]]: I think when it actually gets to the point of 1000 groups, users will change their usage patterns :-)
* [11:56] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: can't imagine having 1000 groups.
* [11:56] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Latif: sure, LL are probably staying with 25. But the viewer is used with other worlds as well, and we won't have LL's limit.
* [11:56] [[User:Mystical Demina|Mystical Demina]]: i think 1000 groups is not realistic use case, i don't montir that much in RL, even twitter
* [11:56] [[User:Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: I still maintain the best solution is get rid of the group<->chat correspondence and go to opt-in channels.
* [11:56] [[User:Elbereth Witte|Elbereth Witte]]: I can't imagiine having 30 groups, or 12 meters prims :-)
* [11:56] [[User:Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: If you want to "monitor" or participate, then open them ip.
* [11:57] [[User:Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: *up
* [11:57] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Mystical: I gave the use case earlier. Live Musicians, there are many thousands, and fans love a hell of a lot more than 25 musicians.
* [11:57] [[User:Mystical Demina|Mystical Demina]]: then i would say it shoujld be more like twitter, differnet kind of service
* [11:57] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Hehe, but one wonders where they find the time to listen to all of them :)
* [11:57] [[User:Mystical Demina|Mystical Demina]]: one group that conslidates many groups
* [11:58] [[User:Elbereth Witte|Elbereth Witte]]: metagroups might become desirable :-)
* [11:58] [[User:Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: Then LL needs to pare down the group system so that 25 groups per av doesn't cause huge overhead.
* [11:58] [[User:Mystical Demina|Mystical Demina]]: you can have music channel the syndicates
* [11:58] [[User:Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: Make groups more "lightweight".
* [11:58] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Right, one problem with the group system is that we provide a crap-ton of services for each group -- if we could only provide a subset for each group it'd be possible to have more
* [11:58] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: morg, make live musicians join "live music events group" and have them announce their gigs there
* [11:58] [[User:Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: Maybe even make a different type of group, which doesn't have all the land/money management overhead for members.
* [11:59] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: So, Which, like a "lightweight" group?
* [11:59] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Mystical: it's a perfectly normal group, a fanclub, just like any other group. Saying "You can't use SL for your fanclub, use twitter" is <insert expletive here>.
* [11:59] [[User:dogtow Hand|dogtow Hand]]: not enough groups now have to leave to join or have more avs for groups
* [11:59] [[User:Elbereth Witte|Elbereth Witte]]: groups have become the silly putty of SL featurewise
* [11:59] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: I wonder, Which, if it would be feasible to have dedicated-purpose groups?
* [12:00] [[User:Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: Call them "associations" or whatever.
* [12:00] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Groups that expressely provide land permissions, groups for notices, groups for chat, etc.
* [12:00] [[User:lufpleh Obstreperous|lufpleh Obstreperous]]: latif, great idea but any group notice is liable not to reach many people if the group is huge
* [12:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Sebastean: yeah that's what I'm thinking too
* [12:00] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Not that what I think really translates into action, but, just IMO
* [12:00] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Latif: think again. Does everyone in the Live Music Enthusiasts group (which exists) want to get spammed with a particular group's fanclub chatter?
* [12:00] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: nods
* [12:00] [[User:Mystical Demina|Mystical Demina]]: i think the use can of a 1000 musicans if valid, but not sure the implementation is to be 1000 groups i have to join
* [12:00] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: luf, that's exactly what i am saying... fix current groups before we start fantasising about 1000 groups ;)
* [12:01] [[User:Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: Group notices and such should be made a lot more lightweight than they are. I think the main problem they have is just a poor implementation.
* [12:01] [[User:Elbereth Witte|Elbereth Witte]]: lets fantasize about 100 then :-)
* [12:01] [[User:Flimsey Freenote|Flimsey Freenote]]: would have to separate into music genre's maybe
* [12:01] [[User:Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: I mean, they can almost be borrowed from forum software.
* [12:01] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: No, fixing current one and then adding more is NOT the right approach. You can't write a scalable system that way.
* [12:01] [[User:Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: "New messages since last visit" -type code
* [12:02] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: You have to DESIGN for large numbers.
* [12:02] [[User:lufpleh Obstreperous|lufpleh Obstreperous]]: agres with Morg, beliving LL were doing a revamp of Groups which was promised moons ago
* [12:02] [[User:Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: You can fix the live system along a migration path towards a new paradigm, though
* [12:03] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Which, I have two quick quuestions about HTTP and scripts, if that's all right?
* [12:03] [[User:Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: Of course, you have to come up with the new paradigm first and not just jump around all higgledy-piggledy.
* [12:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Sure sebastean
* [12:04] [[User:Flimsey Freenote|Flimsey Freenote]]: bye all.. is late for another meeting
* [12:04] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: The first is, will http_in enable script-to-script communications via HTTP?
* [12:04] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Sure, you can migrate people over to a new scalable IM service. But you have to have designed it to be scalable first, and implemented it. You can't just evolve the original design, since you want a NEW design, one that's scalable.
* [12:04] [[User:Elbereth Witte|Elbereth Witte]]: if not, I'm asking for a refund
* [12:05] [[User:Mystical Demina|Mystical Demina]]: i thinkm SL is missing Sim chat, a group for a sim, the 20m limiation can be a problem somtimes
* [12:05] [[User:Elbereth Witte|Elbereth Witte]]: shouts: try this
* [12:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Dunno about http-in, but I don't see why it wouldn't enable script-script communications that way
* [12:05] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: nods
* [12:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: http in + http out
* [12:06] [[User:Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: Well, it depends if you block other sim IP address blocks
* [12:06] [[User:Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: or not
* [12:06] [[User:lufpleh Obstreperous|lufpleh Obstreperous]]: mystical you can use things like scripted walkie talkies for sim wide chat
* [12:06] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: problem with http-in coms object to object would be how to tell the url
* [12:06] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yep, there should be another option, region-wide hearing. This is a virtual world after all. Requiring sound to fall off is not necessary, except when desired.
* [12:06] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: The second question is, do you know anything about the current plans for the script limits LL has in mind? Do you know the nature of them, and wehther they'll only be on mainland, or if it's applying estate side too?
* [12:06] [[User:Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: I would expect not, but ya never know
* [12:06] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: got to run
* [12:06] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: waves
* [12:06] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Cya Aimee
* [12:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: one challenge is violating privacy -- people might not expect to be overheard by someone far away
* [12:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Sebastean: no idea about script limits, sorry
* [12:07] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: Scripts limits will be nice, but ONLY if the limits are done properelly.
* [12:07] [[User:Elbereth Witte|Elbereth Witte]]: it also shrinks the world
* [12:07] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: People talking in public should expect no privacy
* [12:07] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
* [12:07] [[User:Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: That, and constantly hearing my sim-neighbors chatting from the other side of the sim would get annoying
* [12:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Yes but they do
* [12:07] [[User:lufpleh Obstreperous|lufpleh Obstreperous]]: /E hates that voice is at least half a sim wide if someone turns up their microphone
* [12:07] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Is there another OH now? No scripts enabled here.
* [12:07] [[User:Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: Already have gotten that in the past
* [12:08] [[User:Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: Lots of big venues encourage their patrons to /shout greetings and other messages constantly because of the 20m limit
* [12:08] [[User:Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: Would be nice if it was parcel-based, though
* [12:08] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Tal, you can restrict sound to your parcel
* [12:08] [[User:Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: Sound yes, not chat.
* [12:08] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Talarus: it's just another option. You'd have to enable it.
* [12:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Well, every interesting sutff today all, I must depart
* [12:08] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: Thanks for your time which :)
* [12:09] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: waters the plant in gratitude.
* [12:09] [[User:lufpleh Obstreperous|lufpleh Obstreperous]]: you have no privacy oif you talk in public, your average listner takes care of that, but why should i be infictated with griefing from 120m's away
* [12:09] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Tal, restrict sound to this parcel does not apply to voice?
* [12:09] [[User:Techwolf Lupindo|Techwolf Lupindo]]: The seawolf dragon maker just made a chat-relay becuase when more the a couple ancients dragon are toghter, the 20m limit cuts out half there chat.
* [12:09] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Thanks Which, great meeting. All the best ones are heated. Keeps the bamboo growing anyway :P
* [12:09] [[User:Sebastean Steamweaver|Sebastean Steamweaver]]: also gives Which a sunlamp
* [12:09] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: take care which :)
* [12:09] [[User:Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: I mean text chat
* [12:09] [[User:Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: As for voice, I don't know; I don't use it
* [12:09] [[User:Talarus Luan|Talarus Luan]]: I know sounds can be spatialized to parcel
* [12:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ok that's funny about the ancient dragon avs, truly the limit
* [12:10] [[User:lufpleh Obstreperous|lufpleh Obstreperous]]: thank you which,
* [12:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: thank you!
* [12:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: see you next week!

User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2009 May 28

2009-05-28T19:05:19Z

Which Linden: New page: * [11:03] Morgaine Dinova: Making coffee * [11:04] Dahlia Trimble: something is wrong with this seat * [11:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which ...

* [11:03] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Making coffee
* [11:04] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: something is wrong with this seat
* [11:04] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: guten morgen!
* [11:05] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: hola
* [11:05] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha yeah maybe there's an AO conflict or something
* [11:06] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: or you got hydraulics
* [11:06] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: lol
* [11:07] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: I'm attempring to animate my avatar from my irc client ;)
* [11:07] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hiya Which!
* [11:07] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: good morning!
* [11:07] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hi Sai!
* [11:08] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Dahlia, I assume you added the av controls to Idealist, right?
* [11:08] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: no I'm using gridproxy and the 1.23 client
* [11:08] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Ah, injecting into the proxy, clever
* [11:08] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: that proxy is cool stuff
* [11:09] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: <3 gridproxy
* [11:09] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: returns
* [11:09] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: I need to find more info on that. Re:gridproxy and injection.
* [11:09] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so I don't have a topic for today, anyone want to suggest anything?
* [11:09] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: mutters something about pyogp GUI for injection and goes back to sleep
* [11:10] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Wow, it's Eddy. Nice to see you again :-)
* [11:10] [[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]: what is going on?
* [11:10] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: hey Teach
* [11:10] [[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]: did i login to a meeting?
* [11:10] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Which is pontificating about something or another
* [11:10] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which is just starting OH, no topic yet.
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: we're just getting started with my office hours
* [11:10] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: taking topic suggestions
* [11:10] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: Saijani, that would be nice. Handy for testing and hacking the av, like the new alpha textures.
* [11:10] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: oh oh it's the gridproxy master samarai
* [11:11] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Well we could make the topic Cable Beach and how SL is going to factor out asset services :-)))
* [11:11] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: ducks
* [11:11] [[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]: :)
* [11:11] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: lol
* [11:11] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: Cable Beach?
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: what's cable beach?
* [11:11] [[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]: which: are you going to metaverse U tomorrow?
* [11:11] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: Eddy's asset server
* [11:11] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Over to Eddy :-)
* [11:11] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: groans as he get the bad ppun.
* [11:12] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Describe Cable Beach in a paragraph, Eddy:-)))
* [11:13] [[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]: i'm going to give a short talk on cable beach at metaverse u tomorrow. but the quick summary is a service-based architecture for virtual worlds, where you define each component (3d simulation, messaging, assets, etc) as a service and each service can live in a separate trust domain
* [11:13] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Cool, nice one-liner.
* [11:13] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Where is Metaverse U?
* [11:13] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: interesting
* [11:13] [[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]: cable beach is more about defining the interactions and potential trust relations between the services rather than the services themselves, although i'll probably do some service definition as well just to get the ball rolling
* [11:13] [[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]: morgaine: stanford
* [11:14] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: In-world presence here, or in Opensim?>
* [11:14] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: its in sl
* [11:15] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: mutters something about x-world media interop
* [11:15] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Having trouble finding it in Search
* [11:15] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I'll check events
* [11:16] [[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]: last note on cable beach: the current progress is that you can go to a world server, enter your openid, authenticate with your identity provider, get redirected to an inventory server and do an oauth confirmation, and land back at the world server with a secondlife:/// uri to click on that is preauthenticated
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: cable beach doesn't sound like it's really an "asset server" though, it's more of a service registration framework
* [11:16] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: cool!
* [11:16] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: well it was once an asset server :/
* [11:16] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: It sounds like its a different way to handle the Agent Domain authentication
* [11:17] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: is it overlapping or does it replace it completely?
* [11:17] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: it sounds like it's taking the agent domain idea to its logical conclusion
* [11:17] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/CableBeachProposal]
* [11:17] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: We're talking about authenticating for asset access, not for region access.
* [11:17] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: (To Sai)
* [11:18] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: i.e. why not have agent domain, inventory domain, asset domain, physics domain, etc, right?
* [11:18] [[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]: saijanai: right now it's an independent implementation, although i demoed it to infinity at the LL office the other day and we're working on ways to bring some of the concepts together
* [11:18] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: parts of it are in place on osgrid
* [11:18] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: that's the idea. But when I tried to bring that up, Zero refused to talk about such factoring.
* [11:19] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: OK. I guess what I was really wondering is whether it was meant to provide authentication for initial login
* [11:19] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: hello
* [11:19] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hi Youri
* [11:19] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: sorry, was still having dinner :p
* [11:19] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: which is all AD does right now in OGP
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hi youri
* [11:19] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: hey Which :)
* [11:19] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: brb gotta wash maple syrup off my hands
* [11:19] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: lol
* [11:20] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: waves hi at youri
* [11:20] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: hih i :)
* [11:20] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: ugh, laggy :p
* [11:20] [[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]: the main difference that we identified between the two right now is who is in charge of specifying services. in OGP, someone requests to auth with an agent domain and the AD says "ok, here are the services i've selected for use with this grid". in cable beach, the user can optionally attach preferred services to their identity which can be overridden by the world they are entering
* [11:21] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I assume that it's both an OpenID provider and consumer, so that if the AD used OpenID then it would be able to use that?
* [11:21] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: that doesn't sound like too big a deal, as long as there's trust that can be established at connection time
* [11:21] [[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]: i've been trying to brainstorm different ways to make OGP slightly more user-centric instead of grid-centric, but i'm going to start by documenting everything i have for cable beach and see where things evolve from there
* [11:21] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Cool
* [11:21] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: big an issue*
* [11:22] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: I just got online and I saw Torley and Maurice @ Blue's office, was lucky i guess...
* [11:22] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: so what is the service breakdown?
* [11:22] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: the hypergrid assumes all services/worlds are trusted automatically, and the AD assumes they are NOT. CableBeach seems to compromise in a way
* [11:23] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Er ...
* [11:23] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: *mutes sound* that tune starts to get on my nerves o_0
* [11:23] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: hey Flimsey
* [11:23] [[User:Flimsey Freenote|Flimsey Freenote]]: hi :)
* [11:23] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: appears to be deaf
* [11:24] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: lol, your closer to it Sai
* [11:24] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hiya Flim :-)
* [11:24] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: Im using the linux client so sound isnt working :(
* [11:24] [[User:Flimsey Freenote|Flimsey Freenote]]: waves at Morgaine
* [11:24] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: lol, ty
* [11:24] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: Use openal soft.
* [11:24] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: offending object removed
* [11:24] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: that's strange. All sound input enabled, but can't hear a thing except the wind and typing sounds
* [11:24] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: ty for returning that :p
* [11:25] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: mushroom mushroom!
* [11:25] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Sounds is working fine in Linux, using OpenAL. I haven't used FMOD for many months
* [11:25] [[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]: saijanai: yes. the idea is that worlds can choose to use untrusted services supplied by a user, or they can override and provide their own. once you break things down as far as "assets", "inventory", etc. you might decide there really isn't any danger in using an "untrusted" asset service. no more dangerous than fetching content off the web
* [11:25] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yep, agree with that.
* [11:26] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: as long as the client doesn't do something totally funky with the data, I don't see it as an issue. BUt I could see security viloations (AD perspective-wise) creeping in if the client does certain things
* [11:27] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I expect the *VAST* majority of assets to be totally free of restrictions, for the simple reason that people are not going to put up with their things disappearing when they visit some other world.
* [11:27] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: eddy, what's the list of services? I see asset, inventory, identity so far
* [11:27] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: I forsee a rather strange period of disappearing/reappearing assets as everyone adjusts to the new world order
* [11:27] [[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]: the other thing that i think everyone has been toying with a bit (infinity, people on my team, and people from the opensim community have independently mentioned it) is a way to aggregate trust. in CB we'll probably define a trust service that acts like a broker for trust. so if a random service is given at login, you can check with your trust service (a trusted third party service) that will tell you if they know about that service and how trusted it is
* [11:28] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: if i may interrupt, what is the topic? o_0
* [11:28] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yeah, like in the early days of the web, when we had broken images everywhere. Then people realized that that's unworkable.
* [11:28] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: youri we're talking about cable beach: [http://code.google.com/p/cablebeach/]
* [11:28] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: the topic is new world order ;)
* [11:29] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: and now everyone hosts images themselves to prevent broken images
* [11:29] [[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]: which, sorry. there is world and simulation node which are in the same trust domain. so you get one world service and lots of simulation node services which makes up a 3d world concept. then assets, inventory, trust is being worked on, and that's all i have right now. messaging will need to exist before IM and things like that work
* [11:29] [[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]: and the rest can probably be vendor-specific
* [11:29] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: lol, no idea what that is Which. so far i understand, its something about the asset sever. correct me please if im wrong
* [11:29] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: @Dahlia: new world order? hmm... you really wanna go there :p
* [11:30] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: giggles
* [11:30] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: youri: check out the page, it's got a decent overview
* [11:30] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: There also needs to be a much stronger user-emphasis, so that you can have you clothes on your PC and not in some grid's asset server, and be able to carry them into new worlds with you.
* [11:30] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: hm yeh eddy, it seems that defining the services is a difficult problem in and of itself; I mean we could toss in messaging and group services, but those interact in complex ways
* [11:31] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: I can see a possible security issue. NOt sure if its valid though: if a client establishes 2-way communication with an outside server of somekind and funnels data back to them, it could be come a tool for asset theft ala copybots. Though, that can already be done just by hacking the GPL or openmv clients
* [11:31] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: im slightly dislectic and i can not focus for long on large texts :p
* [11:31] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: mostly if i need to rush read :p
* [11:31] [[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]: morgaine: my gut feeling is that most people will be happy with storing their clothes on their [insert vendor here
* [11:32] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah definitely; I've been migrating from "Everything runs on my home server" to "colo" to "hosted" for my internet services
* [11:32] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: hi latif
* [11:32] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: hello
* [11:32] [[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]: which: the reason why service definition is so sparse is that you only really need to define services for things that interact across trust domains. maybe it's determined that it is too difficult to do a group service across trust domains, so no service is defined. each world just does their own thing behind the curtain and the client (and other worlds) are none the wiser
* [11:32] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Eddy: as long as the asset services (plural) selection mechanism is flexible, one can always have an additional asset service on one's ownworkstation.
* [11:33] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: take a seat!
* [11:33] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: and no, doesnt mean free chairs :p
* [11:33] [[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]: which: you don't *need* to define any cable beach services to get a functional grid. it just means that everything runs LLGrid style, where the fun is behind the magic curtain of the simulator
* [11:33] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: but aren't we tryingto move away from the simulator-as-arbiter-of-everything model?
* [11:34] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: it has a lot of flaws
* [11:34] [[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]: defining assets and inventory as services means pulling those things out from behind the curtain, sticking them on the web, and saying "hey amazon can run these things instead"
* [11:34] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: not least of them that the poor simulator gets overloaded easily
* [11:34] [[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]: yes definitely
* [11:34] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: One hopes tha service deployment is seperate from service deployment
* [11:34] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: defintiino
* [11:34] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: let me try that in english
* [11:34] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Gotta agree Zha :-))))
* [11:34] [[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]: CB is just working one piece at a time though. smaller pills to swallow
* [11:34] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: "On hopes that servcie design is different from servcie deployment"
* [11:35] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: watches the logic explode
* [11:35] [[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]: yes
* [11:35] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: The fact that it sits on the sim today as a deployment endpoint, should be 99% irrelevent
* [11:35] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Well that's pretty simple: service design needs to be a superset of service deployment.
* [11:35] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: mutters some nasty words about how service to client messages get handled int he large in that case, and listen more
* [11:36] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: heh
* [11:36] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: I thought that OGP was meant to searpate the services out anyway, at least fom the sim. Cable beach appears to be a meta service provider in a sense
* [11:37] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: an alternative to the Agent DOmain
* [11:37] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: So, how are we going to get a list of asset services that can be selected into the AD?
* [11:37] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Asset and inventory services.
* [11:37] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: I think it would be cool if multiple services could be combined and chosen by each user so several asset servers could be simultaneously supplying a single simulation
* [11:38] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: several simulators, you mean?
* [11:38] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: It alsmost has to end that way, sooner or later, Dahlia
* [11:38] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Both, actually
* [11:38] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: seems to me that that is a problem that the OGP model has to solve anyway. Cable Beach just brings it to the front, instead of deferring it until LL decides what to do next
* [11:38] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: and several simulators too
* [11:38] [[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]: morgaine: i suggested two ideas. 1) the AD knows about multiple services that can fill the same role, and it can send a list of services to the client and give the client a choice. 2) in the initial exchange, the client can send a list of suggested services and the AD can decide to use those or ignore the list
* [11:38] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: You really want to be able to fetch assets from a range o possibls stores
* [11:38] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Indeed. A user needs to be able to tell the AD on login that she wants to use SL's asset service, and (say) OSgrid's, and (say) the asset service running on her own PC.
* [11:39] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: IE, I could have a private asset server for some regions on osgrid, and also allow access to the public asset servers at the same time
* [11:39] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: And more generally, you really want to not tie any type of item to a singel service provider
* [11:39] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: All 3
* [11:39] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: And in general, N
* [11:39] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: (ie you really have to have URIs not UUIDs for most of the non local stuff)
* [11:40] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: I can see a potential for confusion though: what if you decide to use Service C to obtain an asset A, and someone malicious has defined that asset to be dfiferent than what the client expects?
* [11:40] [[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]: that's one thing i punted on just so i could get code and documentation written instead of staying in the planning phase forever. but support for multiple (simultaneous) services absolutely has to happen
* [11:40] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: As soon as you say "Oh, its one of these 4 services which will handle this UUID"
* [11:40] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: you're broken any notion of scalability and adressability
* [11:41] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yep, needs to be an arbitrary set
* [11:41] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: so reading this all... is it right that LL is trying to get SL more open for everyone? asin more opensim style? like letting people create their own sims and/or offline worlds?
* [11:41] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Caps, get you about 1/3 of the way there...
* [11:41] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: yeah....we have to nuke bare uuids in the long run, unless the uuids are in a context such that the full url is completely derivable
* [11:41] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: But the current binding of UUID to implcit service providers isn't wondrous
* [11:42] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: right, its fine for a Servcie to accept UUIDs, it issued, for short term use
* [11:42] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: But.. any long term holding of a naked UUID is just... asking for pain
* [11:42] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: say well the public asset server on osgrid is somewhat insecure in that it allows anyone to access it, but I'd like to set up regions that can display more valuable asssets that I would like to store on a private server, while still allowing visitors to access their inventories
* [11:42] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: So, same question again ..... how are we going to get the ability to use multiple asset services into the AD?
* [11:42] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: (Well if Inventory is nothign more than a set of URIs, then the ones the sim can't fetch simply get marked as such wen you use them
* [11:42] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: hmm... so my offline sandbox idea can be a reality soon :D
* [11:42] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: presumably the idea is that your inventory server contains links to multiple asset servers
* [11:43] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: good news then :p
* [11:43] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: what zha said
* [11:43] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Mind you
* [11:43] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: There is a gotcha lurking in there
* [11:43] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: why not still have a UUID and have a giant look-up table on the internet somewhere?
* [11:43] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: which is at the moment.. permisinos sit in a funy place
* [11:44] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: offers to sell Dahlia a supercomputer cloud to host the table
* [11:44] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: I was thinking of using google for free ;)
* [11:44] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: In the High-Availability world, they will often define multiple "instances" of a service, any one of which can handle a request for that service. Does that apply?
* [11:44] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: and you can sell a cloud to google
* [11:44] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: if you do URIs, to an extent
* [11:44] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Zha: do you have some sort of framework for allowing the AD to handle multiple asset and inventory providers? It's not in OGP, and when I tried to get Zero to talk about it, he refused. So how are you going to get that in there?
* [11:44] [[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]: dahlia: i don't think it needs to be "on the internet somewhere". the simulator should have all of the knowledge it needs to map from UUID to URI
* [11:45] [[User:Thoys Pan|Thoys Pan]]: uh oops
* [11:45] [[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]: mojito: that's closer to load balancing. in this setup, each service is speaking the same protocol but serving up different sets of content
* [11:45] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: well for multiple asset servers it may not be practical for the region to know all that
* [11:46] [[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]: dahlia: why not?
* [11:46] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: If you get away from UUIDs ro URIs, its explicit
* [11:46] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: hypergrid visitors can come from anywhere
* [11:46] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: or... and here is another trick you can play
* [11:46] [[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]: zha: you going to rewrite LLUDP to use URIs in place of UUIDs?
* [11:46] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Well, somehow part of a UUID has to indicate the service that created it.
* [11:46] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: The region HAS to know about it, since it has to take the assets from all over and distribute them to the people in the region.
* [11:47] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: If the inventoory is unified, the inventory host can keep track of the asset server
* [11:47] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: I dont think the region knows now, it asks the asset server
* [11:47] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: but that means that each asset server needs to be registered with the inventory host
* [11:47] [[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]: regions already track tons of metadata attached to objects. just attach another uri to them that acts as the base uri when resolving content for that object. problem solved
* [11:47] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Eddy: I think the long term plan is to migrate away from UDP for the inventory-related services
* [11:47] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and.. If you don't movbe from UUID to URI, you're always stuck with odd implicit couplling
* [11:47] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Yes, registered.
* [11:48] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Putting URIs into UUIDs makes themn kinda big
* [11:48] [[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]: which: i'm not talking about inventory though
* [11:48] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Dahlia: sure, the region doesn't know now, but we're thinking ahead. :-)
* [11:48] [[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]: inventory is easy
* [11:48] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: Eddy, but you could have a single object requiring multiple asset servers... ie different textures on different faces
* [11:48] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Inventory can't be unified, unless you mean on a person's own PC.
* [11:48] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: say the region has to track too much already
* [11:48] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Eddy: oh....then what else makes major use of uuids?
* [11:48] [[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]: latif: is that a good idea?
* [11:49] [[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]: if it's a good idea then ok, back to the drawing board. but i'm not sure that's a good idea
* [11:49] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I think its an inevtiable idea
* [11:49] [[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]: which: the objects in-world right now
* [11:49] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: 5 sides of a picture frame come from one place, the painting on the front comes from another
* [11:49] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: well i could acquire textures from different places... in my inv... so when creating an object i should not be restrained to texturing it from a single assset server
* [11:49] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: So I can put a texture on a surface which is served up out of Akami
* [11:49] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: while the prim isn't.
* [11:50] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: say and who serves the "missing texture" texture?
* [11:50] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Hopefully the client.
* [11:50] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: And even if you DO want to keep assets in inventory tracked, if you decorate something with a new texture and bring it back into inventory, the asset server and inventory host needs to be able to handle the arbitrary handoffs
* [11:50] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Built into client?
* [11:50] [[User:jessicalee Shamrock|jessicalee Shamrock]]: hey
* [11:50] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Latif: yep, that's what we're saying ... each asset can be anywhere, and what clients will be doing is creating a mashup of elements from different places, proxied (or no!) via the region.
* [11:50] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: That sounds good.
* [11:51] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Eddy: I see....I'd say that those uuids are, like Zha says, temporary implicit references
* [11:51] [[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]: makes sense
* [11:51] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Have to be really careful not to store these temporary UUIDs for too long
* [11:51] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: One very helpful thing, is that Regions dont' get naked UUIDs in this model as inputs
* [11:51] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: presumably they woulldn't last past a session
* [11:51] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: so.. if they ever got the asset, they ought to have a way of knowing whence it came from
* [11:51] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: the rule of thumb right now is that if it goes into inventory, its no longer got a temp reference
* [11:52] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Which means, if we sort inventory
* [11:52] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: 90% of it gets hidden
* [11:52] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: i.e. the asset server knows about it
* [11:52] [[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]: sorry to take off early but i need to keep working
* [11:52] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Ok, so the Region maps the UUID to the full internal representation, which includes a URI?
* [11:52] [[User:Eddy Stryker|Eddy Stryker]]: bye everyone
* [11:52] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Cya Eddy
* [11:52] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: take care Eddy
* [11:52] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ok eddy thanks for popping in!
* [11:52] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: laterz Eddy :)
* [11:52] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: bye eddy
* [11:52] [[User:Flimsey Freenote|Flimsey Freenote]]: awesome stuff Eddy
* [11:52] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: see you eddy
* [11:53] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: Thoys, like sitting on Zha's lap? ;)
* [11:53] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Fast departing eddy
* [11:53] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: I've heard of him, I think
* [11:53] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: laughs
* [11:53] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: So, what's the answer to my question? How do we get asset service diversity into the AD?
* [11:53] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: i guess you have a fan, Zha ;)
* [11:53] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
* [11:53] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: thoys how rude!
* [11:53] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Mostly into the Inventory servcie, actually Morgaine, I think. which lets the rest happen implciityly
* [11:53] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: well, I feel like if the inventory service is just a list of links then it's pretty implicit
* [11:54] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: jinx zha
* [11:54] [[User:Thoys Pan|Thoys Pan]]: what?
* [11:54] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: lol
* [11:54] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I expect I wasn't rezzed to Thorys
* [11:54] [[User:Thoys Pan|Thoys Pan]]: i didnt see her yet
* [11:54] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: you were sitting on Zha's lap, Thoys
* [11:54] [[User:Thoys Pan|Thoys Pan]]: same for john
* [11:54] [[User:Thoys Pan|Thoys Pan]]: first i sat on john
* [11:54] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I always stand to one side until all green dots are accounted for
* [11:54] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: lol
* [11:54] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: atleast you wont fall off ;)
* [11:54] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: haha
* [11:55] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: man, I remember when people couldn't sit on each other....then we introduced that ability either as a bug or a feature, can't remember which
* [11:55] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: if it is a uuid instead of a url, then it could move to a different asset server
* [11:55] [[User:jessicalee Shamrock|jessicalee Shamrock]]: whats up
* [11:55] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: For about 90% of the early going, if you get inventory to allow you to point to mujltiple asset servers, the world is helped a lot
* [11:55] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: I like to have folk be able to set on an avatar saddle.
* [11:55] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: hey jessicalee
* [11:55] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: it could move to a different server if it's a url as well
* [11:55] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Pity the server doesn't enforce freezing an av until its surroundings have appeared.
* [11:55] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Then we would all pile up at the TP poiint, waiting for rezzing to finish.
* [11:56] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: they would risk being frozed forever ;)
* [11:56] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Which can take looong time sometimes
* [11:56] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: SL would be a pretty frozen experience if it did that
* [11:56] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: gently suggests URI vs URL in 90% of the spec level cases, even tho many willbe URLs
* [11:56] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: I meant a different domain
* [11:56] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: So, to copy an asset, you'd end up with a new URL, possibly not a new URI
* [11:56] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: That would be a good thing, because people would scream blue murder and something would be done about it .... like getting the cache working :P
* [11:56] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Dahlia: but how would that change be communicated? You'd have to change some field somewhere to point to the new domain, might as well just be the hostpart of at url
* [11:57] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: You can fall onto classic Http and do a reidrect
* [11:57] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Hmm, copying an asset from one server to another? I think there be security problems with that.
* [11:57] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Well, if you hae permsions, as always Mojitor
* [11:58] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: dunno, but I could see moving my assets from one provider to another if one went under or changed their business practices
* [11:58] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: The case mentioned earlier, where you do not trust one grids sewrver with your valuable stuff
* [11:58] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Jeez, let's get stuff working before we spend years thinking about how to stop it working.
* [11:58] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: The multiple asset servers may be entirely ionvisible to the end user
* [11:58] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: The asset server, being a web service can decline to give up a copy to other services if it doesn't want to..
* [11:59] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: That is ok
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: Morgaine: hm....the risk is that you end up with something like SMTP
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: it works, but it's so easily abused that it doesn't work
* [11:59] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: you could just add in a feature that tells you where the server is located. official LL server, opensim, or what ever. then you can decide to proceed with the TP or stop. or for that matter even filter out non-LL servers
* [11:59] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: if you ignore security concerns during the design phase
* [11:59] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Which: or something like the web, which just works despite the occasional abuse.
* [11:59] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: isnt that better then just letting the thing run wild?
* [12:00] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: see it as a extra protection
* [12:00] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]: has rl to attend to... bye all, interesting conversation :)
* [12:00] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Is some asset servers do not enforce copyright protections (imagine one in China), then I may not want copies of my creations ending up there
* [12:01] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: The Internet is a good example of letting things run wild, and vindicates the model. People are amazingly good at self-organizing
* [12:01] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: bye dahila
* [12:01] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Get it working for unencumbered assets, so there is no issue.
* [12:01] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: later dahila
* [12:01] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Mojito, the initial services would be for Creative Commons style assets Allowing SL assets intot he wild requires all sorts of legal/scoial issues to be solved first
* [12:01] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: ok
* [12:02] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: jonx Morgaine...
* [12:02] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hehe
* [12:02] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ok I should run!
* [12:02] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: If we don't take that approach, we'll be here forever trying to solve a near-impossible problem.
* [12:02] [[User:Youri Ashton|Youri Ashton]]: kk which! thank you for this meeting!
* [12:03] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: yes
* [12:03] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Thanks Which, take care :-)
* [12:03] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: SO, [aside to Prokofy
* [12:03] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: take care Which
* [12:03] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: ha ha h, thanks everyone, great discussion today
* [12:03] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: D: too late
* [12:03] [[User:Skills Hak|Skills Hak]]: seeya which

User:Which Linden/Office Hours/2009 May 21

2009-05-21T19:17:48Z

Which Linden:

''Agh this is all messed up for my chat -- I used an old viewer and that confused the wikifier''

* [11:07] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: 'Morning all :-)
* [11:07] [[User:You: Good|You: Good]]: morning!
* [11:07] [[User:You: Sorry|You: Sorry]]: I'm late
* [11:08] [[User:You: Has|You: Has]]: anyone gotten the snowglobe viewer running on the mac?
* [11:09] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: sai is the only mac user here :)
* [11:10] [[User:You: ha|You: ha]]: ha, yeah, we already did the secret mac user handshake
* [11:11] [[User:You: So.....any|You: So.....any]]: more questions about the topics from the last two weeks
* [11:11] [[User:You: ?|You: ?]]:
* [11:11] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: suspects everyone is AFK from waiting for him to arrive
* [11:11] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: returns
* [11:12] [[User:koen3 Bing|koen3 Bing]]: not everyyone
* [11:12] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: I'me here using the just built RC2 on my linux box.
* [11:12] [[User:You: oh|You: oh]]: nice -- how's it working?
* [11:12] [[User:You: the|You: the]]: "normal" RC is still downloading for me
* [11:13] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I have RC2 on Linux too
* [11:13] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Music streaming broke again
* [11:13] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Don't think we had covered all of SL's forms of messaging, we had lots of "Don't know"s.
* [11:13] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: I patch and build a 64 bit version. No gstreamer issues here.
* [11:14] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Oh, one should add OGP's IM to the list ... another "Don't know" :-)
* [11:14] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: 32bit 2.23.1 worked when I disabled OpenAL and used FMOD.
* [11:14] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: sorry 1.23.1
* [11:14] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: I got over 90fps peak. Average 60fps plus. Very high for me. I usally average 40 or below.
* [11:14] [[User:You: What|You: What]]: forms of messaging did we not cover morgaine?
* [11:15] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: There is no gstreamer issue when you make a 64-bit build. Gstreamer is only an issue when you run a 32-bit build on a 64-bit system under emulation.
* [11:15] [[User:You: Wow,|You: Wow,]]: that's a high FPS man
* [11:15] [[User:Which Linden|Which Linden]]: is currently rocking 18 FPS
* [11:15] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: Graphics Card: GeForce GTX 260/PCI/SSE2
* OpenGL Version: 3.0.0 NVIDIA 180.51
* [11:16] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: oops, was away sorting out my laundry :D I'm running Snowglobe on Mac here too
* [11:17] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Well most were "Don't know" :-)
* [11:17] [[User:You: Well|You: Well]]: we got answers for 1) 1:1 IM, 2) group/conference chat 3) group notifications and 4) local chat
* [11:17] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Both the group notice and system notification were "Don't know" I think.
* [11:18] [[User:You: Oh|You: Oh]]: system notification, that's just a glorified IM
* [11:18] [[User:You: 11|You: 11]]: IM that is
* [11:18] [[User:You: Same|You: Same]]: mechanism.
* [11:19] [[User:You: the|You: the]]: online/offline status notifications you get are the same as well, I believe
* [11:20] [[User:You: If|You: If]]: I may move on to a new topic
* [11:20] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: I need to read up on the snowglobe thing. Is it the http-texture branch or was a new branch started? (/me counts how many brances there is now....)
* [11:21] [[User:You: ATechwolf|You: ATechwolf]]: I think it's http-texture just rebranded
* [11:21] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: still http-texture at the moment
* [11:21] [[User:You: A|You: A]]: while ago, Sai brought up the notion of collaborative whiteboarding in SL
* [11:21] [[User:You: Which|You: Which]]: I think is totally awesome
* [11:22] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: That would be VERY useful
* [11:23] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I think it should be native in SL.
* [11:23] [[User:Xaria Mistwallow|Xaria Mistwallow]]: many people this time i see
* [11:23] [[User:Xaria Mistwallow|Xaria Mistwallow]]: hi all
* [11:23] [[User:You: What|You: What]]: I was thinking is that I think there's some sort of generic collaboration algorithm that's possible
* [11:23] [[User:You: Hi|You: Hi]]: Xaria
* [11:24] [[User:Xaria Mistwallow|Xaria Mistwallow]]: nice talk going on @ Jack's meeting, people complaining about those bots being banned
* [11:24] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: ludittes
* [11:24] [[User:Xaria Mistwallow|Xaria Mistwallow]]: they dont even realise its better for everyone and the SL economy
* [11:24] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Who is running a bad AO script? "[11:23
* [11:25] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: People COMPLAINING about banning bots??
* [11:25] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: Probletty someone over on help island.
* [11:25] [[User:Xaria Mistwallow|Xaria Mistwallow]]: yup
* [11:25] [[User:Xaria Mistwallow|Xaria Mistwallow]]: alot of people there
* [11:25] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: How many of them ARE bots?
* [11:25] [[User:Xaria Mistwallow|Xaria Mistwallow]]: angry about LL trying to ban the avitars that serve as bots
* [11:25] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: yeah new policy: camping chairs are outlawed
* [11:25] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: hooray
* [11:26] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: well soon nothing will be allowed lol
* [11:26] [[User:Xaria Mistwallow|Xaria Mistwallow]]: they dont even realise those things cause a lot of problems and hurt the SL economy badly
* [11:26] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: what causes problems?
* [11:26] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I have seen useful bots serving as models in a clothing store, where you can select which outfit they wear. Other than that, dump 'em
* [11:26] [[User:Xaria Mistwallow|Xaria Mistwallow]]: not to mention that they are grievers while using those
* [11:26] [[User:You: ok,|You: ok,]]: well, not to squelch discussion but land policy isn't really the theme of these OH
* [11:26] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Yes, I wpould like to hear more about this whiteboard thing
* [11:26] [[User:Xaria Mistwallow|Xaria Mistwallow]]: new players dont ge their chance for lucky chairs most of the time, or camping chairs for that matter
* [11:27] [[User:Xaria Mistwallow|Xaria Mistwallow]]: let we go talk about Which's topics now
* [11:28] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: well its kind of silent....
* [11:28] [[User:Xaria Mistwallow|Xaria Mistwallow]]: I'm Sorry! for that Which, kinda getting annoyed of people that dont realise the truth
* [11:28] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
* [11:29] [[User:You: Hah....sorry|You: Hah....sorry]]: myself...busy day here, I keep getting distracted
* [11:29] [[User:Xaria Mistwallow|Xaria Mistwallow]]: you aint the only one being busy Which! :D
* [11:29] [[User:Matheus Woodford|Matheus Woodford]]: hello
* [11:29] [[User:You: The|You: The]]: thing about the generic algorithm is that I feel, just intuitively, that a lot of these collaboration problems are similar in nature and thus could be solved in a generic way
* [11:30] [[User:You: Hi|You: Hi]]: Matheus
* [11:30] [[User:Xaria Mistwallow|Xaria Mistwallow]]: I been doing alot of bug tracing today
* [11:30] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: puts her feet up and relaxes to watch everyone else get busy
* [11:30] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Collaborative building seems to be just a by-product of the way editing works.
* [11:31] [[User:You: In|You: In]]: general, the "collaboration problem" is one of a) getting state changes distributed quickly amongst participants and b) dealing with the fact that everyone's modifications are possibly against an out-of-date copy of the state
* [11:32] [[User:You: Mojito|You: Mojito]]: well, in sl it's actually quite deliberate -- the build system was designed as it was specifically to facilitate collaboration
* [11:32] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: Is there anything in that that could be taken as a model for collaboration generally?
* [11:32] [[User:You: Not|You: Not]]: to derail into a discussion of this specifically, but one major problem with mesh import is that it's not clear how to do that collaboratively, if at all
* [11:33] [[User:You: Mojito|You: Mojito]]: research has been done in this area
* [11:33] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: ok
* [11:33] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: But since that collaboration has turned out to be at least an order of magnitude for collaborative 2D whiteboarding, I think this needs a special case, and hence direct support.
* [11:33] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: order of magnitde too slow*
* [11:34] [[User:You: yeah,|You: yeah,]]: the way we do collaboration in SL is synchronous, and it does 1) ok but 2) not so well
* [11:35] [[User:You: There's|You: There's]]: some papers on doing state sync when each party is modifying simultaneously
* [11:35] [[User:You: http//neil.fraser.name/writing/sync/|You: http//neil.fraser.name/writing/sync/]]:
* [11:35] [[User:You: is|You: is]]: one that's essentially diff-based
* [11:36] [[User:You: there's|You: there's]]: this abstract: [http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/login.jsp?url=http%3A%2F%2Fieeexplore.ieee.org%2Fiel5%2F9197%2F29171%2F01316123.pdf%3Farnumber%3D1316123&authDecision=-203]
* [11:36] [[User:Xaria Mistwallow|Xaria Mistwallow]]: lol, all to much text for me :p
* [11:36] [[User:You: Jupiter|You: Jupiter]]: is a name that comes up a lot: [http://www.seas.upenn.edu/~cse400/CSE401_2006/Saviano/architecture.html]
* [11:36] [[User:You: ok|You: ok]]: last one: [http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?doid=289444.289469]
* [11:37] [[User:You: It's|You: It's]]: linkdump time! :-)
* [11:38] [[User:You: I|You: I]]: pretty much see people starting from text editing and then generalizing to larger problems if at all
* [11:38] [[User:Xaria Mistwallow|Xaria Mistwallow]]: lol, ill keep to translating for the time being, got enough to do for 1.23.4
* [11:38] [[User:Xaria Mistwallow|Xaria Mistwallow]]: euhm... .3
* [11:40] [[User:You: heh|You: heh]]: yeah this is pretty high-concept shit
* [11:40] [[User:You: but|You: but]]: basically there seems to be a pattern in all this
* [11:40] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: It needs to include some kindn of graphics from day 1
* [11:41] [[User:Xaria Mistwallow|Xaria Mistwallow]]: on my main avi im doing translations for the Dutch language, we ran into alot of problems, some of the windows actually had to be made bigger and changed so it would all fit propperly
* [11:41] [[User:Xaria Mistwallow|Xaria Mistwallow]]: we still working on that
* [11:41] [[User:You: the|You: the]]: pattern is: there's a server or servers which send and receive deltas to/from the clients; and each delta has the property that it can be moved around in the stream and not lose its meaning
* [11:42] [[User:You: Xaria|You: Xaria]]: wow, yeah, localization is very hard, mad props for that
* [11:42] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I guess picking the right set of "objects" that the delta is done on is key.
* [11:42] [[User:Xaria Mistwallow|Xaria Mistwallow]]: besides that, one of the 1.23 bugs has been appearing again, looks like the server isnt taking the fix for it, so that needs to be done aswell
* [11:42] [[User:Xaria Mistwallow|Xaria Mistwallow]]: 15 new languages if i aitn mistakken
* [11:42] [[User:Xaria Mistwallow|Xaria Mistwallow]]: mistaken*
* [11:44] [[User:You: Mojito|You: Mojito]]: yeah; I think that one could develop a framework that would allow application writers to just focus on the semantics of the state structure and the deltas therof
* [11:45] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: So what do you do when one contributor makes a delta with respect to her outdated global state, and then you try to apply that to the current known state and it's different?
* [11:45] [[User:You: Morgaine|You: Morgaine]]: well that's the trick innit
* [11:46] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Without theoretical backing, yep, that's the trick. :-) But what do those theory papers suggest is the solution?
* [11:47] [[User:You: One|You: One]]: of them (don't remember which) proposes that there are mathematically reorderable transformations that you can apply
* [11:47] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Invariant despite reordering?
* [11:48] [[User:You: I|You: I]]: don't remember the details of how they actually looked in practice, but I can imagine that they might work a bit like, in a text document, being like "insert the text "New Text" at line 32 position 3"
* [11:48] [[User:You: if|You: if]]: some other collaborator adds text at line 32 position 2, then yuor stuff may get interleaved, but at least it's consistent
* [11:49] [[User:You: that's|You: that's]]: not actually reorderable though
* [11:49] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: That's not invariant. There might have been an extra bunch of lines added before line 32 recently.
* [11:49] [[User:You: yeah,|You: yeah,]]: so the order matters in that case
* [11:49] [[User:You: I|You: I]]: don't understand this very well, obviously!
* [11:50] [[User:You: But|You: But]]: basically the overall goal is so that if one client sees updates A,B,C and another sees C,A,B, they both end up with the same resultant state
* [11:50] [[User:Xaria Mistwallow|Xaria Mistwallow]]: i dont even understand the first thing, but ow well :p
* [11:50] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: For the whiteboard, it's actually a lot simpler, because you're not trying to solve everything. Just provide small, randomly interacting updates that can be applied rapidly, and let humans sort out races.
* [11:51] [[User:You: it|You: it]]: is easier if the updates are server-mediated, because then you can guarantee that updates are delivered in the same order to all clients
* [11:52] [[User:You: but|You: but]]: then you have latency issues, because no client can see their own update without a full round-trip to the server
* [11:52] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Assuming you don't use UDP, yeah :P
* [11:52] [[User:Latif Khalifa|Latif Khalifa]]: lol
* [11:53] [[User:You: no|You: no]]: matter what networking technology you use
* [11:55] [[User:You: if|You: if]]: I change a text block to say "Which wuz here" and you change it at the same time to say "Morgaine Rulez", if our clients apply those changes without first waiting for the server to mediate, then we could end up seeing different whiteboards on our screens
* [11:55] [[User:You: And|You: And]]: that wouldn't be very collaborative
* [11:55] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: If the updateable objects are at all non-trivial,, it takles a bit of time to crearte them before they are sent. Like "draw a gren circle here, or radius 3"
* [11:56] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: draw a *green cirlce here *of radius 3
* [11:56] [[User:You: you|You: you]]: mean render lag? Or just that if your delta is massive data-wise?
* [11:56] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: I cant even send it until I have specified that somehow, graphically on my end
* [11:56] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I disagree that it wouldn't be collaborative. It would be collaborative as long as you update everyone to the same consistent state promptly.
* [11:56] [[User:You: it|You: it]]: could be that your delta is "paste contents of war + peace into this portion of the board"
* [11:57] [[User:Mojito Sorbet|Mojito Sorbet]]: More likely, put texture X there
* [11:57] [[User:You: Morgaine|You: Morgaine]]: yeah, true, so I guess one way of doing it is the clients do their updates as they are made, and the server sends down "true" state and if that conflicts with the client's state, it would toss the client-generated state
* [11:58] [[User:You: So....that|You: So....that]]: is to say when you change the text box to "Morgaine Rulez" that text shows up on your screen immediately, but if the server decides that the text "Which wuz here" is the ultimate final state, then when that update propagates to your client it clobbers "Morgaine Rulez"
* [11:59] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yep, and the resulting loss of update wouldn't be perceived as any different to being overwritten by someone else, which is perfectly valid.
* [11:59] [[User:You: I|You: I]]: believe this would be called "client side prediction"
* [12:00] [[User:Xaria Mistwallow|Xaria Mistwallow]]: accepted your inventory offer.
* [12:00] [[User:You: That's|You: That's]]: how google docs works, I believe
* [12:00] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Don't think it needs prediction.
* [12:00] [[User:You: Well,|You: Well,]]: when the client shows you "Morgaine Rulez" on your screen right away, that's a prediction that the server will say that
* [12:01] [[User:You: In|You: In]]: truth the server might decide that your update is naff and no one else will ever see that text, so the prediction could be wrong
* [12:01] [[User:You: Same|You: Same]]: thing for multiplayer games; they do exactly that
* [12:02] [[User:You: They|You: They]]: play the animation that you shot that guy in the head, but oops the server's state showed that he dodged, therefore, he's back alive again
* [12:02] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: But it's also an acknowledgement that someone may overwrite it with something else. And if my line never appears at all as a result of conflict resolution, then that exactly equivalent to it having appeared briefly and then been overwritten by another.
* [12:03] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: It just needs terminal events (like death on being hit by a bullet) to be deferred for a quantum.
* [12:04] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Since resurrection is not typically a regular event in most systems.
* [12:05] [[User:You: Yeah...so|You: Yeah...so]]: I guess that's one of those application logic things
* [12:06] [[User:You: ok....I|You: ok....I]]: should run, thank you all for your patience with my ramblings
* [12:06] [[User:Xaria Mistwallow|Xaria Mistwallow]]: tnx for this meeting which!
* [12:06] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: thanks which :)
* [12:06] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: One useful heuristic to apply is update queue reordering: send updates to the most recent updater first, before updating those who haven't sent an update recently.
* [12:06] [[User:ATechwolf Foxclaw|ATechwolf Foxclaw]]: I just found Prospero Linden is no longer at LL. See you later Witch.
* [12:07] [[User:Aimee Trescothick|Aimee Trescothick]]: oh, another unlinden?
* [12:07] [[User:You: Morgaine|You: Morgaine]]: yes good optimization
* [12:07] [[User:You: ATechwolf|You: ATechwolf]]: ?!!?!?
* [12:07] [[User:You: OK,|You: OK,]]: that's the final word!
* [12:07] [[User:You: -)|You: -)]]: