User:Dale Innis/Group IM in OGP - Revision history

Saijanai Kuhn: /* See Also */

2008-10-01T15:35:33Z

Dr Scofield: /* Loosely related, further ramblings */

2008-09-27T15:49:21Z

Loosely related, further ramblings

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:49, 27 September 2008
Line 81:		Line 81:

	* The other news would be from Eric Reuters saying that [http://secondlife.reuters.com/stories/2008/09/03/ibm-adds-virtual-worlds-support-to-lotus-sametime/ "IBM showcases an integration of Sametime chat into 3D worlds" ] which would bridge text chat from Sametime into 3D worlds, most noteably Second Life. This again emphasizes that there is some use case for integration of ('plugable') (web) services to a variety of systems suited for content and community management.		* The other news would be from Eric Reuters saying that [http://secondlife.reuters.com/stories/2008/09/03/ibm-adds-virtual-worlds-support-to-lotus-sametime/ "IBM showcases an integration of Sametime chat into 3D worlds" ] which would bridge text chat from Sametime into 3D worlds, most noteably Second Life. This again emphasizes that there is some use case for integration of ('plugable') (web) services to a variety of systems suited for content and community management.
	** As one of the researchers involved in Sametime 3D i just want to point out that Sametime 3D is about integrating virtual world into Sametime: that is you can turn a sametime chat session into a virtual world meeting. There is a chat "integration" between OpenSim (which we are using as underlying virtual world platform for Sametime 3D) and Sametime, but that is just to relay chat traffic from sametime to the OpenSim region and back (for those participants that are not joining the in-world meeting). And we are currently doing it via OpenSim's IRCBridgeModule... [[User:Dr Scofield\|Dr Scofield]] 08:48, 27 September 2008 (PDT)		** As one of the researchers involved in Sametime 3D i just want to point out that Sametime 3D is about integrating virtual world technology into Sametime: that is you can turn a sametime chat session into a virtual world meeting. There is a chat "integration" between OpenSim (which we are using as underlying virtual world platform for Sametime 3D) and Sametime, but that is just to relay chat traffic from sametime to the OpenSim region and back (for those participants that are not joining the in-world meeting). And we are currently doing it via OpenSim's IRCBridgeModule... [[User:Dr Scofield\|Dr Scofield]] 08:48, 27 September 2008 (PDT)

	=Some of the most relevant chat transcripts=		=Some of the most relevant chat transcripts=

Dr Scofield: clarification on sametime 3d

2008-09-27T15:48:43Z

clarification on sametime 3d

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:48, 27 September 2008
Line 81:		Line 81:

	* The other news would be from Eric Reuters saying that [http://secondlife.reuters.com/stories/2008/09/03/ibm-adds-virtual-worlds-support-to-lotus-sametime/ "IBM showcases an integration of Sametime chat into 3D worlds" ] which would bridge text chat from Sametime into 3D worlds, most noteably Second Life. This again emphasizes that there is some use case for integration of ('plugable') (web) services to a variety of systems suited for content and community management.		* The other news would be from Eric Reuters saying that [http://secondlife.reuters.com/stories/2008/09/03/ibm-adds-virtual-worlds-support-to-lotus-sametime/ "IBM showcases an integration of Sametime chat into 3D worlds" ] which would bridge text chat from Sametime into 3D worlds, most noteably Second Life. This again emphasizes that there is some use case for integration of ('plugable') (web) services to a variety of systems suited for content and community management.
			** As one of the researchers involved in Sametime 3D i just want to point out that Sametime 3D is about integrating virtual world into Sametime: that is you can turn a sametime chat session into a virtual world meeting. There is a chat "integration" between OpenSim (which we are using as underlying virtual world platform for Sametime 3D) and Sametime, but that is just to relay chat traffic from sametime to the OpenSim region and back (for those participants that are not joining the in-world meeting). And we are currently doing it via OpenSim's IRCBridgeModule... [[User:Dr Scofield\|Dr Scofield]] 08:48, 27 September 2008 (PDT)

	=Some of the most relevant chat transcripts=		=Some of the most relevant chat transcripts=

Saijanai Kuhn: /* Approaches */

2008-09-17T00:20:21Z

Approaches

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:20, 16 September 2008
Line 30:		Line 30:
	=Approaches=		=Approaches=
	* Sai suggests that, as a very first experiment and proof of concept, we move Group IM into the AD (Agent Domain), and allow inter-domain IMs by using the AD as a relay point.		* Sai suggests that, as a very first experiment and proof of concept, we move Group IM into the AD (Agent Domain), and allow inter-domain IMs by using the AD as a relay point.
	:see discussion page for more...[[User:Saijanai Kuhn\|Saijanai]] 17:15, 16 September 2008 (PDT)		:see [[User_talk:Dale_Innis/Group_IM_in_OGP\|discussion page]] for more...[[User:Saijanai Kuhn\|Saijanai]] 17:15, 16 September 2008 (PDT)

	* Various people have suggested that, as the underlying IM infrastructure, we make use of IRC or Jabber or something else that already exists. This still leaves open various questions, such as how identities are mapped and authentication done, but it has been suggested that these are easy to solve. We will attempt to extract from those making these suggestions just how they see it working. Preferably without violating the Geneva Convention.		* Various people have suggested that, as the underlying IM infrastructure, we make use of IRC or Jabber or something else that already exists. This still leaves open various questions, such as how identities are mapped and authentication done, but it has been suggested that these are easy to solve. We will attempt to extract from those making these suggestions just how they see it working. Preferably without violating the Geneva Convention.

Saijanai Kuhn: /* etc */

2008-09-17T00:19:54Z

etc

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:19, 16 September 2008
Line 32:		Line 32:
	:see discussion page for more...[[User:Saijanai Kuhn\|Saijanai]] 17:15, 16 September 2008 (PDT)		:see discussion page for more...[[User:Saijanai Kuhn\|Saijanai]] 17:15, 16 September 2008 (PDT)

	~~==etc==~~
	* Various people have suggested that, as the underlying IM infrastructure, we make use of IRC or Jabber or something else that already exists. This still leaves open various questions, such as how identities are mapped and authentication done, but it has been suggested that these are easy to solve. We will attempt to extract from those making these suggestions just how they see it working. Preferably without violating the Geneva Convention.		* Various people have suggested that, as the underlying IM infrastructure, we make use of IRC or Jabber or something else that already exists. This still leaves open various questions, such as how identities are mapped and authentication done, but it has been suggested that these are easy to solve. We will attempt to extract from those making these suggestions just how they see it working. Preferably without violating the Geneva Convention.
	** Infinity suggests we investigate the possibility that for cross-grid interoperability, we include a way to get a reference to an existing IRC/{X\|I}MPP/RTP/etc. gateway 'cause she things adding XMPP or whatever to OGP is a little heavy.		** Infinity suggests we investigate the possibility that for cross-grid interoperability, we include a way to get a reference to an existing IRC/{X\|I}MPP/RTP/etc. gateway 'cause she things adding XMPP or whatever to OGP is a little heavy.

Saijanai Kuhn: /* implement current group IM in the Agent Domain as the behavioral use-case for any new architecture */

2008-09-17T00:15:30Z

implement current group IM in the Agent Domain as the behavioral use-case for any new architecture

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:15, 16 September 2008
Line 29:		Line 29:

	=Approaches=		=Approaches=
	~~==implement current group IM in the Agent Domain as the behavioral use-case for any new architecture==~~
	* Sai suggests that, as a very first experiment and proof of concept, we move Group IM into the AD (Agent Domain), and allow inter-domain IMs by using the AD as a relay point.		* Sai suggests that, as a very first experiment and proof of concept, we move Group IM into the AD (Agent Domain), and allow inter-domain IMs by using the AD as a relay point.
			:see discussion page for more...[[User:Saijanai Kuhn\|Saijanai]] 17:15, 16 September 2008 (PDT)
	~~This would allow us to test not only group IM functionality, but inventory exchange, group notices, the concept of region vs agent domain vs universal groups, etc., while working on better design(s).~~

	~~My idea is to simply use a cap obtained via the Agent Domain seed cap , to receive group IM messages ala the current ImrpovedInstantMessages packet.~~
	We could establish a separate pipe for sending IM messages TO the Agent Domain as well (this brings up an interesting point: is it more efficent to use the long-poll to recieve group messages in a "pull" scenario instead of using the reverse http "push" strategy?).

	~~Seems to me that implementing the current group message handling in OGP would be relatively trivial~~: just use the AD as the unchanging connection poitn for sending/receiving IIM packets and modify the OGP group IM server to always send to the AD rather than to the sim where the agent is currently rezzed. More specialized behavior on the part of the AD/IM server interactions could be tweaked behind the scenes without changing the protocols at all, and with (I hope) only minimal changes required at first for the group IM server AND the client: just disable switching connections when the avie changes sims, and treat the AD as a simulator from the IM server's perspective AND the client's perspective (for now).

	~~As we get~~ more familiar with how even THIS minor change works, we can start playign with new ways of sending/receiving gorup IM, such as irc or jabber or xmpp, but keep the connection poitns the same between client and AD. ~~Perhaps a wrapper for the IIM packet could be devised to identify WHICH kind and source of group IM was being used to serve the packets)~~. ~~Just some thoughts~~. [[User:Saijanai Kuhn\|Saijanai]] 13:15, ~~15 September 2008 (PDT)~~
	:I want to emphasize that this is mean as a temporary thing, not THE OGP design, and probably shouldn't be part of the OGP spec--perhaps an interim spec meant only for protocols expected to exist only during testing.[[User:Saijanai Kuhn\|Saijanai]] 13:41, 15 September 2008 (PDT)

	==etc==		==etc==

Saijanai Kuhn: /* Some of the most relevant chat transcripts */

2008-09-16T23:58:48Z

Some of the most relevant chat transcripts

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:58, 16 September 2008
Line 99:		Line 99:
	* [[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_September_04\|Zero Linden office hours chatlog 20080/09/04]]		* [[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_September_04\|Zero Linden office hours chatlog 20080/09/04]]
	* [[User:Saijanai_Kuhn/pyogp_irc-2008_09_14\| pyogp irc discussion in group IM 2008/09/14]]		* [[User:Saijanai_Kuhn/pyogp_irc-2008_09_14\| pyogp irc discussion in group IM 2008/09/14]]
			* [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-16\|AW Groupies chatlog 2008/09/16]]
	*[[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_September_16\|Zero LInden office hours chatlog 2008/09/16]]		*[[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_September_16\|Zero LInden office hours chatlog 2008/09/16]]

Saijanai Kuhn: /* Some of the most relevant chat transcripts */

2008-09-16T23:57:01Z

Some of the most relevant chat transcripts

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:57, 16 September 2008
Line 99:		Line 99:
	* [[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_September_04\|Zero Linden office hours chatlog 20080/09/04]]		* [[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_September_04\|Zero Linden office hours chatlog 20080/09/04]]
	* [[User:Saijanai_Kuhn/pyogp_irc-2008_09_14\| pyogp irc discussion in group IM 2008/09/14]]		* [[User:Saijanai_Kuhn/pyogp_irc-2008_09_14\| pyogp irc discussion in group IM 2008/09/14]]
			*[[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_September_16\|Zero LInden office hours chatlog 2008/09/16]]

	=See Also=		=See Also=

Xugu Madison: Corrected statements about Jabber (mis-attributed to IRC) and added Zero's statement on IRC

2008-09-16T16:31:34Z

Corrected statements about Jabber (mis-attributed to IRC) and added Zero's statement on IRC

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:31, 16 September 2008
Line 53:		Line 53:

	=Specific thoughts on the applicability / scalability of existing IM systems=		=Specific thoughts on the applicability / scalability of existing IM systems=

			==Jabber==

			In his [[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_September_04\|Office Hours for 2008 Sept 04]], Zero comments that Linden Labs looked at the possibility of using Jabber for SL Group IM traffic, and came to the conclusion it wouldn't scale according to their needs. This is due in particular to the large number of group IM sessions that each AV is potentially in at once, as well as the extremely large number of AVs in each group. They talked to a professional Jabber service provider, who estimated that scaling to SL levels would require lots of hardware and the provider's own proprietary extensions to the Jabber protocol.

	==IRC==		==IRC==

	~~(In his~~ [~~https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/~~User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_September_04 Office Hours for 2008 Sept 04], Zero ~~comments~~ that ~~they looked at~~ the ~~requirements of using~~ IRC ~~for SL Group IM traffic, and due in particular to~~ the ~~large~~ number of group ~~IMs~~ that ~~each AV is potentially in at once, even a professional IRC service provider estimated that scaling to SL levels would require lots of hardware~~. ~~Not initially clear how the scalability compares to any other, non-IRC, approach, but it seems that this would at least potentially be a strain on existing IRC infrastructures.)~~		IRC was also discussed at [[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_September_04\|Zero Linden's Office Hours for 2008 Sept 04]], and Zero stated that current IRC servers couldn't handle the load SL would put on them ("...IRC has the problem that the servers can't handle the number of group chat rooms that we have").

	~~==Jabber==~~

	==A Simple Design Example==		==A Simple Design Example==

Saijanai Kuhn: /* A Simple Design Example */

2008-09-16T09:48:21Z

A Simple Design Example

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:48, 16 September 2008
Line 81:		Line 81:
	* To first order, only the communication between the viewer and the AD as to the list of groups that the user belongs to, and the generated password under which the user is registered with them. All other communication takes place over the relevant IM protocol, between the IM-client code in the viewer and the IM server.		* To first order, only the communication between the viewer and the AD as to the list of groups that the user belongs to, and the generated password under which the user is registered with them. All other communication takes place over the relevant IM protocol, between the IM-client code in the viewer and the IM server.
	* Anything else?		* Anything else?
			::My own take is that the AD should be a relay point for messages from any given IM server. The IM server should send messages to the AD which then decides what to do with them. Someone else suggested that the client poll the AD for incoming messages, but either way, the relevant info concerning whether or not a given avatar is online should be local to the AD, and the server should never know (unless the AD provides notice caching as an optional service, in which case, if no avatar is online, the AD notifies the server of this fact, to reduce message traffic). [[User:Saijanai Kuhn\|Saijanai]] 02:48, 16 September 2008 (PDT)

	=Loosely related, further ramblings=		=Loosely related, further ramblings=

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:35, 1 October 2008
Line 107:		Line 107:
	[[Category:AW Groupies]]		[[Category:AW Groupies]]
	[[Category:Grid Interoperability]]		[[Category:Grid Interoperability]]
			[[Category:AW Groupies User Pages]]

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:58, 16 September 2008
Line 99:		Line 99:
	* [[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_September_04\|Zero Linden office hours chatlog 20080/09/04]]		* [[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_September_04\|Zero Linden office hours chatlog 20080/09/04]]
	* [[User:Saijanai_Kuhn/pyogp_irc-2008_09_14\| pyogp irc discussion in group IM 2008/09/14]]		* [[User:Saijanai_Kuhn/pyogp_irc-2008_09_14\| pyogp irc discussion in group IM 2008/09/14]]
			* [[AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-09-16\|AW Groupies chatlog 2008/09/16]]
	*[[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_September_16\|Zero LInden office hours chatlog 2008/09/16]]		*[[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_September_16\|Zero LInden office hours chatlog 2008/09/16]]