Tree Kyomoon: New page: * [8:24] Goldie Katsu: Hello. * [8:25] Goldie Katsu: Virtual Worlds cancelation? * [8:25] Goldie Katsu: oh early not la...

2008-04-03T17:21:45Z

New page: * [8:24] Goldie Katsu: Hello. * [8:25] Goldie Katsu: Virtual Worlds cancelation? * [8:25] Goldie Katsu: oh early not la...

New page

* [8:24] [[User:Goldie Katsu|Goldie Katsu]]: Hello.
* [8:25] [[User:Goldie Katsu|Goldie Katsu]]: Virtual Worlds cancelation?
* [8:25] [[User:Goldie Katsu|Goldie Katsu]]: oh early not late.
* [8:26] [[User:Goldie Katsu|Goldie Katsu]]: Happily I have a cup in front of me right now.
* [8:26] [[User:Goldie Katsu|Goldie Katsu]]: Reminds me of New Orleans. Not that I've ever been there.
* [8:30] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: so much for agenda pages
* [8:30] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: got morgen Morgain
* [8:31] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: chuckles to himself triumphantly for getting the egg seat
* [8:32] [[User:Goldie Katsu|Goldie Katsu]]: The do chicory in their coffee.
* [8:32] [[User:Goldie Katsu|Goldie Katsu]]: And my phone glitched again.... (sorry rl)
* [8:34] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: hello folks! Good to see you again Goldie Saij and Morgan!
* [8:34] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: hmmm is there a "cancelled notice' around here?
* [8:34] [[User:Goldie Katsu|Goldie Katsu]]: Heya Tree
* [8:34] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: and Harleen too
* [8:34] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: :)
* [8:34] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: and Kirsten...as the world rezzes
* [8:35] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: ("As the World Rezzes..." a new soap opera perhaps?)
* [8:35] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: not this time. He's just late
* [8:35] [[User:Goldie Katsu|Goldie Katsu]]: Not seeing one in the mailing list.
* [8:35] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: hello everybody
* [8:35] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: hello Rex!
* [8:35] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Goood morning all!
* [8:37] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: morning Zero!
* [8:37] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: utters evil chuckles
* [8:38] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: So I hear Philip is going to testify about us in front of Congress...thats kind of big news hey?
* [8:39] [[User:Nika Talaj|Nika Talaj]]: That already happened, Tree.
* [8:39] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: aww man...am I ever behind the times
* [8:39] [[User:Wyn Galbraith|Wyn Galbraith]]: Yeah already happened.
* [8:39] [[User:Raz Welles|Raz Welles]]: Hezzo ^^
* [8:39] [[User:Nika Talaj|Nika Talaj]]: Virtual worlds.
* [8:39] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: hey wyn!
* [8:39] [[User:Nika Talaj|Nika Talaj]]: There's a couple of threads about it on the forums, if you want more info
* [8:39] [[User:Ravi Edgeworth|Ravi Edgeworth]]: i have to warn you, i'm a bit of a purist
* [8:39] [[User:Wyn Galbraith|Wyn Galbraith]]: tries to turn her feet off
* [8:40] [[User:Ravi Edgeworth|Ravi Edgeworth]]: thx
* [8:41] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: great thanks for the link!
* [8:41] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: should be good fuel to keep the old clients paying for the island hopefully
* [8:41] [[User:Alaya Kumaki|Alaya Kumaki]]: i watched it, fascinating...
* [8:42] [[User:BigMike Bukowski|BigMike Bukowski]]: I thought it was an april fool's joke at first.
* [8:45] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: I figured it would be germain to our AWG
* [8:45] [[User:Goldie Katsu|Goldie Katsu]]: one might hope backbone providers were paying attention.
* [8:47] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: seems to me they would be biased towards download bandwidth for the coming h.264 based HD video quality...and upload might get neglected or sacrificed
* [8:47] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: which isnt good for virtual world types
* [8:47] [[User:Goldie Katsu|Goldie Katsu]]: The nature of the traffic has an impact on how they should look on developing and providing the network.
* [8:48] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: I supposedly have jury duty today so I'm a day late on getting anything done. SO no questions/comments from me (whats up with that?)
* [8:49] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: so very good news then
* [8:52] [[User:Rookiie Roux|Rookiie Roux]]: Opensim isnt finished yet it takes alot of time to get a final release
* [8:53] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: has Adobe shown any interest to your knowledge?
* [8:54] [[User:Alaya Kumaki|Alaya Kumaki]]: lol
* [8:55] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: is amazed Adobe is ignoring Virtual Worlds. It seems like the next natural RIA platform development environment
* [8:56] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Zero, one issue with Sun and SL is the fact that the only alternate world is in C#, a java rival
* [8:56] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: excellent!
* [8:57] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: hi
* [8:57] [[User:Goldie Katsu|Goldie Katsu]]: Yay!
* [8:57] [[User:Rookiie Roux|Rookiie Roux]]: hi hamilton
* [8:57] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Zha not online today. Wondering if she's taking Tes to the airport
* [8:58] [[User:Goldie Katsu|Goldie Katsu]]: Or if she is at Virtual Worlds?
* [8:58] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Well maybethey both went
* [8:59] [[User:Goldie Katsu|Goldie Katsu]]: (related vw article on behind the fw: [http://www.virtualworldsnews.com/2008/04/ibm-takes-secon.html] )
* [9:00] [[User:JayR Cela|JayR Cela]]: Nika from what I understand it will be seemless for IBM employee's to go between the differnt grids
* [9:00] [[User:JayR Cela|JayR Cela]]: \Nika IBM will be running it own grid
* [9:02] [[User:Nika Talaj|Nika Talaj]]: Wll all there assets be handled by SL's cluster, or will they have their own asset server?
* [9:02] [[User:Hamilton Linden|Hamilton Linden]]: / no, they have their own asset server
* [9:02] [[User:Nika Talaj|Nika Talaj]]: *fascinating*
* [9:02] [[User:Hamilton Linden|Hamilton Linden]]: you can think of this as an intermediate step on the way to providing a connected open architecture
* [9:02] [[User:Detour Sideways|Detour Sideways]]: so what happens with assests they are carrying on the SL grid when they move over to their private grid?
* [9:03] [[User:Hamilton Linden|Hamilton Linden]]: as described in the AWG
* [9:03] [[User:Nika Talaj|Nika Talaj]]: bravo!!! thta was really my question.
* [9:03] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: what is IBM's specific motivation for involvment beyond helping mankind in general?
* [9:03] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: so if a ibm employee buys somthing on the main grid they also take the item they bought to IBMs asset server(s)?
* [9:03] [[User:Hamilton Linden|Hamilton Linden]]: / Detour, permisions remain intact and so they could buy items on our grid and bring them into their intranet
* [9:03] [[User:Nika Talaj|Nika Talaj]]: Do they have server source code? I've seen some of their writeups online, very technical.
* [9:03] [[User:Goldie Katsu|Goldie Katsu]]: Alternatives to flying cars
* [9:04] [[User:Hamilton Linden|Hamilton Linden]]: IBM's motivation is to offer corporate enterprises a more secure experience
* [9:04] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: So a 100% trusted world, using Zero's terminology
* [9:04] [[User:Goldie Katsu|Goldie Katsu]]: 100% trusted?
* [9:04] [[User:Hamilton Linden|Hamilton Linden]]: / Saijanai, basically yes
* [9:04] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: full asset sharing
* [9:04] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: So IBM will be offering their own servers for rent to corporate clients?
* [9:05] [[User:Hamilton Linden|Hamilton Linden]]: / No we don't have access to their behind-the-firewall assets or chat
* [9:05] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hamilton: what I'm getting at is security of SL assets, which are currently entirely within an LL-managed environment. Is IBM's grid going to be in a position of trust as if it were LL's own, or of distrust as an unknown 3rd party?
* [9:05] [[User:Hamilton Linden|Hamilton Linden]]: / It's still trusted
* [9:05] [[User:Hamilton Linden|Hamilton Linden]]: / where as Region domains allow us to connected untrusted regions, something we want
* [9:05] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Morgain/Hamilton, thats what I meant
* [9:06] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: its still the same region domain? or is it bypassing the agent/region domain thing for now?
* [9:06] [[User:Hamilton Linden|Hamilton Linden]]: / in the future we see adding untrusted region domains in the same manner we are adding ones like IBM
* [9:06] [[User:Hamilton Linden|Hamilton Linden]]: / this is still the pre-Region/Agent domain world so its still part of our domain
* [9:07] [[User:Hamilton Linden|Hamilton Linden]]: / However part 2 of our announcement was that we are also working with IBM on the Agent/Region domain architecture through the AWG, which is both of our companies goal
* [9:07] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Hamilton: you've just contradicted yourself. You said IBM's grid was trusted, and now you say "adding untrusted region domains ... same as IBM's".
* [9:08] [[User:Hamilton Linden|Hamilton Linden]]: no, its different timelines
* [9:08] [[User:Nika Talaj|Nika Talaj]]: Does LL get access to any server enhancements/grid enhancements IBM may create? Source code access?
* [9:08] [[User:Hamilton Linden|Hamilton Linden]]: IBM's trusted grid (actually Regions) was #1 (what we're deploying now)
* [9:09] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: The IBM regions are under an agreement between the two companies that enables us to treat those regions as fully trusted - that is trusted to respect permissions
* [9:09] [[User:Hamilton Linden|Hamilton Linden]]: The cooperation on the AWG Agent/Region domains is the AWG and that's not deployed yet
* [9:09] [[User:Hamilton Linden|Hamilton Linden]]: IBM is actually demoing Second Life running on their Blade Center today and tomorrow in the Virtual Worlds conference in New York City
* [9:09] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: The future interop work is to get us to a place where we can have region domains that are untrusted - where there doesn't need to be such a legal agreement in place
* [9:10] [[User:Hamilton Linden|Hamilton Linden]]: exactly
* [9:10] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: so you *can't* take it without...
* [9:10] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: so you can't take it with you
* [9:10] [[User:Nika Talaj|Nika Talaj]]: Does LL get access to any server enhancements/grid enhancements IBM may create? Source code access?
* [9:10] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: hates it when he completely mistypes his humerous remarks
* [9:11] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yep, the untrusted regime I understand, since that's where we'reheading for interop. This "trusted" arrangement I don't understand at all... sounds extremely dangerous. If the main grid suffers L$ loss owing to an action in the IBM grid, there will be hell to pay.
* [9:11] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: As there would be if it were due to action in the LL regions
* [9:11] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: i guess it would be possible for somebody on IMBs grid to even get access to script code?
* [9:12] [[User:Hamilton Linden|Hamilton Linden]]: We've done a lot of things to prevent that both technically and contractually
* [9:12] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Think of it this way: right now, LL has to enter into agreements with our CoLo providers to ensure a level of trust
* [9:13] [[User:Hamilton Linden|Hamilton Linden]]: I'm gonna run and let Zero answer your remaining questions. I have a hiring meeting I need to go to.
* [9:13] [[User:Hamilton Linden|Hamilton Linden]]: It was great talking to you guys. Thanks for your time!
* [9:13] [[User:Rookiie Roux|Rookiie Roux]]: bye hamilton
* [9:13] [[User:Nika Talaj|Nika Talaj]]: thanks for dropping in, hamilton. Great info!
* [9:13] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Zero: LL customers have a contractual arrangement with LL though, but not with IBM. If IBM's grid causes some hiccup, it'll be a lawyer's delight.
* [9:14] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: Great news. Will the IBM Island be moving to the IBM SubGrid?
* [9:14] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: LL doesn't, and can't, do every aspect of a the job of running the grid, soup to nuts -- we hire CoLos, we contract with internet access providers
* [9:14] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: u can't prevent that technically, once somebody has the byte code they only need a decompiler to get a very similar approximationof the original code
* [9:14] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: bye
* [9:14] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: LL contracts with Lindens, as a matter of course.
* [9:14] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: That's subcontracting, which has lots of precedent. This is different.
* [9:14] [[User:Nika Talaj|Nika Talaj]]: (arawn: would be amazed if that happened)
* [9:15] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Morgain- the same would be true if a CoLo employee caused a problem on the grid too
* [9:16] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: And I can assure you, that even with a company with the size and reputation of IBM, there was a long period of "due dilligence"
* [9:16] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: during which we evaluated the security of the systems they were going to use, and the network configuration
* [9:16] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I won't say more, as it's not tech so a bit boring. But personally I'd have taken the opportunity to make IBM's grid an untrusted 3rd party, the start of interop.
* [9:16] [[User:Nika Talaj|Nika Talaj]]: ^^ raises eyebrows.
* [9:17] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Well, I think that would be a better wrougte, bu thow many months should they have waited, Morgaine?
* [9:17] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: well, in our remaining time, let's talk a bit about privacy, since i think it follows well from this
* [9:17] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Haha, aye
* [9:17] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: if someone could send me a transcript...I crashed
* [9:17] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: Contractural Negotiations can be object oriented, and performed via internet. Every Class Definition is a contractual offering
* [9:18] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: I like to express my contracts as Unit Tests! :-)
* [9:18] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: how about allowing builders, scripters, the ability to NOT allow what they make to be used on other grids?
* [9:19] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: or only on specific grids?
* [9:19] [[User:Frohiky Larsson|Frohiky Larsson]]: hey everyone
* [9:19] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: That has been proposed, and on the face of it seems reasonable: Some sort of flag "Restrict to this domain"
* [9:19] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: the problem is, once there are two dozen domains live, I imagine that people will want a "Restrict to this set of domains"....
* [9:19] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: which is going to get tricky and hard to keep up-to-date
* [9:20] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: and what about objects I bought last year, but now there are ten new domains, that the creator trusts......?
* [9:20] [[User:Leffard Lassard|Leffard Lassard]]: Perhaps more a "restrict to this level of trust"..
* [9:20] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: Scalar, starting with "Restrict to this Client"
* [9:20] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Right - so, you want a descriptive way of saying "level of trust"... but what is that? A number? A bond rating?
* [9:20] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: or restrict to the creator's domain
* [9:21] [[User:Nika Talaj|Nika Talaj]]: it's a Security Association, is it not?
* [9:21] [[User:Nika Talaj|Nika Talaj]]: In AAA terms.
* [9:21] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: "Restrict to this Sim," could be handy in sales demonstrators
* [9:22] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: seems like a lot of extra overhead to support archane and probably unnecessary control details over ones " content"
* [9:22] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: I can see content creators wanting to charge more for unrestricted domain access
* [9:22] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: I can imagine rather complete schemes for this.... but feel the need to balance usability
* [9:22] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: tell that to to the music companies tree:)
* [9:22] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: why should the grid be subjected to extra overhead to support content creators wanting to charge more ?
* [9:23] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Arawn - I've heard that idea before and think it has great utility - do more "DEMO" versions of stuff
* [9:23] [[User:Nika Talaj|Nika Talaj]]: thinks it would be safest to stick to known security/permission models, rather than invent.
* [9:23] [[User:Leffard Lassard|Leffard Lassard]]: Restricting the use of stuff disturbs the usability a lot in my eyes.
* [9:23] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Zero: To get us running on the Privacy topic, I suggest a basic breakdown into privacy of (a) communications, (b) identity and presence, and (c) visual activities.
* [9:23] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: does asset control fall into "privacy?"
* [9:23] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: thinks the service model is the future, and distribution profiteering is into its last gasps
* [9:24] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Well - along those lines, here is the framework that I've been thinking
* [9:24] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Sai: not really no, although ome things can be inferred from permissions. Objects are a sort of covert channel on privacy
* [9:24] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: a) communications that are about individuals are all over HTTPS - hence encrypted and safe
* [9:24] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: if people don't get anything for what they r making, why would they want to make more?
* [9:25] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: b) identity and presence - is primarily up to your agent domain to enforce, and so you should choose your agent domain wisely... though I imagine that most will do what LL does to day and make reasonable garuntees about such
* [9:25] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: /rex because they can then get a reputation, and get paid to make custom versions, alterations, or related products as a service
* [9:26] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: c) visual activities, I take to mean actions in world - are subject to the polcies of the region domain you are in....
* [9:26] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Now, the question is, is that balance enough -
* [9:26] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: could ask the same about Children, Rex: People like to be acknowledged, which is what IP is all about. Profit tends to go to lawyers
* [9:26] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: I hope so, becuase it is an easy construction and lets different aspects have rights
* [9:26] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: so, until u get those special contracts u r supposed to give everything away for free?
* [9:27] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Zero: re item (a) HTTPS only provides privacy of communication from entities outside of the VW system, no privacy at all within the world. Most of the discussion over the last 4 years about privacy have been about privacy once the communication is in world.
* [9:27] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: So before we get into the free-vs-pay philisophical argument
* [9:28] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: remember: The goal is to enable all points of view to build parts of the virtual world and they can all co-exist
* [9:28] [[User:Infrared Wind|Infrared Wind]]: Great goal, Zero.
* [9:28] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: But in-world communication comes in two places
* [9:28] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: the agent domain and the region domain
* [9:28] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: let's look at e-mail
* [9:29] [[User:Ravi Edgeworth|Ravi Edgeworth]]: There's almost a need for an "office of fair trading" to settle disputes.
* [9:29] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: when someone sends you an e-mail, you have choosen your e-mail provider on the basis that it won't divulge your e-mail to anyone but you
* [9:29] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: /rex...google doesnt charge anyone to use their search, but they are worth billions. Same idea
* [9:29] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: (we'll ignore, for the moment that SMTP is generally not encrypted...)
* [9:29] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Ravi: the "Office of Fair Trading" is being automated, via Which Linden's nice escrow service :-)
* [9:30] [[User:Cenji Neutra|Cenji Neutra]]: (except that almost all email is transmitted in plaintext over the internet, so it effectively public ;) )
* [9:30] [[User:Cenji Neutra|Cenji Neutra]]: (ignoring :0 )
* [9:30] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Cenji - that means the SENDER has choosen to send the mail with out protection
* [9:30] [[User:Cenji Neutra|Cenji Neutra]]: yup
* [9:30] [[User:Infrared Wind|Infrared Wind]]: To bolster the analogy: how many people who have gmail accounts worry about their email being read?
* [9:30] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: I choose an e-mail provider that only allows IMAP over SSL
* [9:30] [[User:Nika Talaj|Nika Talaj]]: <must go, thanks for the great discussion all>
* [9:30] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: so, my path is safe
* [9:31] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: is google and content creator?
* [9:31] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: So, like e-mail, I think in-world IM is the balance between the sender's choice of communication and the receiver's choice of agent domain
* [9:31] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: a*
* [9:31] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Plus, I think the protocol will put a pretty clear expectation on the privacy:
* [9:32] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: For example, in the protocol, the only way to get the IM capability is to log in
* [9:32] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: of course, there is nothing stopping some Agent Domain from offering the capability via some other channel.... but I wouldn't park my identity there
* [9:32] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: :-)
* [9:32] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Zero: that's a good analogy, with email. Now consider PGP email as the next step. People in SL will want to communicate via IM *without* trusting their ISP/VW provider, and in email they will PGP-encrypt their email to do so. In SL2, how are we going to provide that functionality?
* [9:32] [[User:Cenji Neutra|Cenji Neutra]]: What about email between objects that requires a high-level of privacy (such as that involving monetary transactions- say from an ATM to an external server)?
* [9:32] [[User:Infrared Wind|Infrared Wind]]: By Agent Domain, do you mean like LL is an agent domain?
* [9:33] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Cenji, Which LInden is working on that kind of thing
* [9:33] [[User:Cenji Neutra|Cenji Neutra]]: I guess the ATM creator must trust the region domain, since they can ultimately reverse engineer the ATM to get any encryption keys out.
* [9:33] [[User:Cenji Neutra|Cenji Neutra]]: ok
* [9:33] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Well, PGP was designed to use the channel privided by e-mail as a transport --- the transport doesn't in any sense "know" that the content is encrypted
* [9:33] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: there are similar systems for IM
* [9:33] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: [http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Certified_HTTP]
* [9:33] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: which give you secure chat over AIM
* [9:34] [[User:Ron Kaffebaum|Ron Kaffebaum]]: hello people :)
* [9:34] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: I have heard wind of someone wanting to do the exact same thing as a viewer mod for IM in SL
* [9:34] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: and there is nothing stopping it
* [9:34] [[User:Cenji Neutra|Cenji Neutra]]: Will there be ways content creators (of scripts) can prohibit script binaries from executing in any region domain except a trusted whitelist, for example?
* [9:34] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: hi
* [9:34] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Yep. And that's what we have to build into our systems too, once we start considering IMetc
* [9:34] [[User:Cenji Neutra|Cenji Neutra]]: (sorry, a little off topic)
* [9:35] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Cenji - I think that just speaks back to the earlier points about coming up with a reasonable and fair and usable system --- but there clearly will have to be something
* [9:35] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Morgain- can you remember to propose, when we get to IM, adding a "filter" or "encryption" field?
* [9:35] [[User:Goldie Katsu|Goldie Katsu]]: Scripts can have impact on privacy.
* [9:36] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Most of the IM systems use a goofy plain text header in an attemtp to establish with the other side, like "@(@(--PrivacyIM?"
* [9:36] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: we should do a bit better than that
* [9:36] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: xml?
* [9:37] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: I think we can just include a map field in the LLSD payload of the IM meesage
* [9:37] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: well all
* [9:37] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Cenji, scripts will probalby live in the region domain (except attachments) so it goes back to trust /permissions
* [9:37] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: it is past the hour
* [9:37] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: There are at least two simple ways of handling it. One is to mark the stream as encrypted and only send it to listeners whose IM port is marked as enceypted too (they'll see gibberish if they don't have the key, but people who do not have an encrypted IM port will see nothing at all). And the otherapproach is to display the gobbledigook for all to see, and only those with the right keys can make any sense of it, once it reaches their client.
* [9:37] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: and I'm late (as usual) to my next meeting.....
* [9:38] [[User:Infrared Wind|Infrared Wind]]: cheers Zero
* [9:38] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: thanks all for coming
* [9:38] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Thanks for doing this
* [9:38] [[User:JayR Cela|JayR Cela]]: later Zero
* [9:38] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: thanks again zero!
* [9:38] [[User:Ravi Edgeworth|Ravi Edgeworth]]: thx
* [9:38] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: See my wiki home page for a place to put agenda topics for next Tuesday
* [9:38] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Zero: sure. Ie's about time we had more VAGs anyway, hahaha. Privacy VAG in this case
* [9:38] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Peace
* [9:38] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Zha's said thaat Eben Moglen is talking about holding privacy discussions in-world --a kind of privacy VAG
* [9:39] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Excellent Sai, I want to be there
* [9:39] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: bye zero

User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 Apr 03 - Revision history

Tree Kyomoon: New page: * [8:24] Goldie Katsu: Hello. * [8:25] Goldie Katsu: Virtual Worlds cancelation? * [8:25] Goldie Katsu: oh early not la...