Tree Kyomoon: New page: * [8:30] Wyn Galbraith: has seen the black helios * [8:30] Arawn Spitteler: FEMA Heliocopters are only the tip of the iceberg * [8:30] [[U...

2008-04-17T17:56:26Z

New page: * [8:30] Wyn Galbraith: has seen the black helios * [8:30] Arawn Spitteler: FEMA Heliocopters are only the tip of the iceberg * [8:30] [[U...

New page

* [8:30] [[User:Wyn Galbraith|Wyn Galbraith]]: has seen the black helios
* [8:30] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: FEMA Heliocopters are only the tip of the iceberg
* [8:30] [[User:Wyn Galbraith|Wyn Galbraith]]: What about the training of terrorists
* [8:30] [[User:Minos Deerhunter|Minos Deerhunter]]: hello
* [8:30] [[User:Wyn Galbraith|Wyn Galbraith]]: I couldn't believe that when I heard it on the congress tape.
* [8:30] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: Civilization has always been a ballance of Community and Integrity, and the Rich are the Community Leaders.
* [8:31] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: The Rich have certainly always been in charge, of the traiining of terrorists.
* [8:31] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: the only hope for the poor is theres so damn many of us :)
* [8:31] [[User:Wyn Galbraith|Wyn Galbraith]]: LOL
* [8:32] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: What was on the Congress Tape? Was this Phillip's Presentation?
* [8:32] [[User:Wyn Galbraith|Wyn Galbraith]]: waves at Zha
* [8:33] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: whispers: Is that Torley?
* [8:33] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: greetings madame zha
* [8:33] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: Naw, it's just Giorno, dressed as Torley.
* [8:33] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: LOL
* [8:33] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: hi everybody
* [8:34] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]: what is with this physics lag?
* [8:34] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: When Dazzle becomes mainstream, I'd like to see the Torley Skin, but not as a constant diet.
* [8:34] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: Ive long hoped for a physics lag in RL.
* [8:35] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: Very... Wily E. Coyote
* [8:35] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: has a physics lag, but it interfere's with the Cultural Interface, and the paying of the Electric Bill.
* [8:35] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: indeed
* [8:35] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: On hte Meat Side, your sim has to interact with your neighbor's sim, and slower sims don't belong where the Money is.
* [8:36] [[User:Wyn Galbraith|Wyn Galbraith]]: LOL, we had that conversation last night, the Coyote RoadRunner thing
* [8:36] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: here comes mr zero
* [8:36] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: beeps
* [8:37] [[User:Wyn Galbraith|Wyn Galbraith]]: Morning Zero (meeps)
* [8:37] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: its the zero effect
* [8:37] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: welcomes Zero to his office hour: What agenda were we just working on? Yes, the impact of SL on the Agent Domain...
* [8:37] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: nabs zero's coffee mug, as it goes by, and takes a quickhit
* [8:37] [[User:Wyn Galbraith|Wyn Galbraith]]: Zero is wearing the ever so pleasant grey.
* [8:38] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: is fighting his dazzle camera
* [8:38] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: 'Morning Zero
* [8:38] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: welcome all
* [8:38] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Bouncing about is it Zero?
* [8:38] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: sorry I'm a bit late
* [8:38] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: so - there is an agenda already?
* [8:38] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: lay it on me
* [8:38] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: we will recalibrate the time space continuum for you
* [8:38] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I missed last Tues (no transcript?), so can't suggest any agenda.
* [8:39] [[User:Wyn Galbraith|Wyn Galbraith]]: Coyote or Road Runner? To be honest I think Sai has the agenda.
* [8:39] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: sorry about that, I was out last week
* [8:39] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: We were just discussing Physics Lag on the Meat Side. It occurs to me, that such parrallels could be of benefit in this discussion.
* [8:40] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: well - I have one item: Unicode
* [8:40] [[User:Arawn Spitteler's|Arawn Spitteler's]]: style of Brainstorming cherishes the fertility of Bull Shit: What were you planning?
* [8:40] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: well Im going to try to put http request cookies on the ole agenda again as my ole standby
* [8:41] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: Unicode, is that the words we use for Characters?
* [8:41] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: That, tree, is more of a current LSL feature request than an architectural item....
* [8:41] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: 8IN
* [8:41] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Tree, is there a pjira entry for that
* [8:41] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: I*N
* [8:41] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: yes
* [8:42] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: I mean, a general webservices model would be good enough
* [8:43] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: would like Client-Side HUD, and wonders if a discussion of that would belong in an Architectural Primer.
* [8:43] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: I just want full access to my island from my webserver
* [8:43] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: AHA - found the workaround for Mac/Mightmouse/Flycam problem
* [8:43] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Oh?
* [8:44] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Dish
* [8:44] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Selling your Mac? ;-))
* [8:44] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: I'm wondering if anyone has an idea of timescale for islands hosted outside LL, similar to the IBM setup, being available...
* [8:44] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: Is that the Camera Smoothing Problem?
* [8:44] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Preferences > Input & Camera > Joystick Setup > Enable Joystick checkbox set to off
* [8:44] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: yes, Zha if you have an update or info on IBM's plans
* [8:45] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: For some reason it thinks the MightyMouse is a joystick
* [8:45] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: that would be good, i'll store them in some droids and pass them to obiwan
* [8:45] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Okay - welllllllll
* [8:45] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: I'm going to lead with Unicode
* [8:46] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: I've been working internally on a project to draw up some Unicode guidelines for the company
* [8:46] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: and it brought up some issues that I wondered if anyone here had
* [8:46] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: experience with
* [8:47] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Turns out, not all big, popular, open source software is truly Unicode compliant
* [8:47] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Like MySQL 5 and PHP 5
* [8:47] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Feh!
* [8:47] [[User:Xugu Madison|Xugu Madison]]: MySQL isn't unicode compliant? Never had a problem here...
* [8:47] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: In particular, they don't support characters above the Basic Multilingual Plane (that is U+0000 through U+FFFF)
* [8:47] [[User:Leffard Lassard|Leffard Lassard]]: And mono/.net either. It only supports 2byte characters.
* [8:47] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: Are these still using Latin1?
* [8:47] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: could offer you a nice industrial Database product.
* [8:48] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Arawn - they both have UTF8 encoding modes, but only support 16 bit characters
* [8:48] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: There are various ways of tricking them.... and SL does trick them
* [8:48] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: but we sometimes get caught
* [8:48] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: isnt that UTF 16?
* [8:48] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: No, Tree
* [8:49] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: UTF-8 is an encoding scheme that encodes Unicode code points in between 1 and 4 bytes
* [8:49] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: code points that fit within 16 bits sometimes still take 3 byts in UTF-8
* [8:49] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: The 3 and 4 byte code points are painful for a lot of people
* [8:49] [[User:Leffard Lassard|Leffard Lassard]]: Btw. what is the content above the basic multilingual plane?
* [8:49] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: so ASCII mabey is all folks cared about
* [8:49] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Leffard - do you know if Mono/.net is only supporting 16 bit characters, or is it (like Java pre 1.5) UTF-16,
* [8:50] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: that is supports the extended characters via UTF-16 surrogate pairs?
* [8:50] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Leffard - well Plane 1 has things like Cuneiform and Linear B
* [8:50] [[User:Leffard Lassard|Leffard Lassard]]: So, I hacked recently mono and I believe the mono documentation mentions only 16bit characters as the character type.
* [8:50] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: which woudl be fun to chat in, but no great loss (no one has the fonts, anyway)
* [8:50] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]: Hi
* [8:51] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: But Plane 2 has a huge list of Chinese compatibility characters
* [8:51] [[User:Leffard Lassard|Leffard Lassard]]: I see. So chinese people are sol.
* [8:51] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: wouldnt that introduce a huge amount of overhead as well? its like 20MB in font size
* [8:51] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: to implement lossless round trip against China's GB18030 character set
* [8:52] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: No, actually most Chinese, I think, is entered using the complete character set that is already
* [8:52] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: within Plane 0
* [8:52] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: What's a Plane?
* [8:52] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Oh
* [8:52] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Unicode consists of 17 planes of 65,536 code points
* [8:52] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: (yes, 17, not 16)
* [8:52] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: in online training we use a subset of the Chinese character sets
* [8:53] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: What parts of infrastructure are affected by internationalization? (Excluding client)
* [8:53] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Plane 0, has code points U+0000 U+FFFF and covers almost everything you are ever likely to actually see
* [8:53] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Notice that it fits in 16 bits
* [8:53] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: Including the 6,000 characters of Chinese.
* [8:54] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Plane 2 has code points U+20000 through U+2FFFF and has these compatibility characters
* [8:54] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: well in Traditional theres something like 18000
* [8:54] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Morgaine - well, Unicode compliance is a subtle thing, actually
* [8:54] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: IM is probably 8-bit clean, so I assume it remains clean regardless of char depth.
* [8:54] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: for us I think it means that we have to agree on certain expectations of compliance
* [8:55] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: for example - an easy one is this: "Human readable text and names are entered, stored, generated and displayed as Unicode strings."
* [8:55] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: aha there it is, "simplified chinese level 1 13741 glyphs"
* [8:55] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Which implies that, no, you can't store arbitrary binary data in a parcel description
* [8:55] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: And then ypou get to define, exactly which level of unicode
* [8:56] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Let's leave the client out of this though. "What's readable" from the client perspective doesn't affect most of the infrastructure.
* [8:56] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Well, so long as you are compliant with 3.1 or later, you are basically future-compatible there
* [8:57] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Well, it does, for example, in how one encodes such data
* [8:57] [[User:Leffard Lassard|Leffard Lassard]]: The problem is not being 8bit-clean. The problem is what does a language/runtime interpret as a character. And for instance mono interprets at most 16bit as a char.
* [8:57] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: could you support the characters but make them a separate download like MS does?
* [8:57] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: so, for example, we can put the parcel name in the content of a <string>...</string> XML element
* [8:57] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: becuase of the above agreement
* [8:58] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Tree - I'm not even worried about the ability of a computers font machinery to display them
* [8:58] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: the problem is that if you store them in your back end database and then retrieve them
* [8:58] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: ahhh you need to store high bit parcel names etc. Right gotcha
* [8:58] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: we have to agree if it is "required", "strrongy suggested" or just "optional" that you retain them
* [8:58] [[User:Umeko Kawanishi|Umeko Kawanishi]]: zero--my first to your office hour, do you usually have an agenda or anybody can ask a question.
* [8:59] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Umeko - I asked for agenda up front
* [8:59] [[User:Umeko Kawanishi|Umeko Kawanishi]]: oh i see. so i was late
* [8:59] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: you can request to add to it at anytime
* [8:59] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Just remember, it is about architecture of SL, present and future
* [8:59] [[User:Umeko Kawanishi|Umeko Kawanishi]]: i have questions about any SL performance testing. who should i talk to?
* [9:00] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: Would that be Which or Benjamin? I know they have hours today.
* [9:00] [[User:Leffard Lassard|Leffard Lassard]]: LLSD has also the problem. XML serializing there defines a utf8 charset but the parser (at least the libsl one) does't support this
* [9:01] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Probably Aric Linden
* [9:01] [[User:Umeko Kawanishi|Umeko Kawanishi]]: ok thanks guys
* [9:01] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Leffard - what? It is a required part of the XML 1.0 spec that all parsers MUST support UTF-8
* [9:02] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: What's the de-facto tho?
* [9:02] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: That is - any XML parser MUST be able to parse UTF-8 encoded XML documents --- the spec doesn't care a wit what encoding the application itself uses
* [9:02] [[User:Leffard Lassard|Leffard Lassard]]: Aha, I see. Perhaps I am wrong here and the xml-reader does supports a 4byte type.
* [9:02] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: I'd like to see a shortlist of the parts of infrastructure that are affected by inrnationalisation issues. A wiki page on the subject would be useful.
* [9:03] [[User:Kristoffer Drake|Kristoffer Drake]]: I agree with this - much more likely bits won't get missed
* [9:03] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Zha - The XML spec requires support for both UTF-8 and UTF-16 encodings, and makes UTF-8 the default if no encoding is mentioned
* [9:03] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: so if overhead isnt an issue, why wouldnt mysql5 and php support the higher UTFs?
* [9:03] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: hence, UTF-8 is most common that I've seen, though in Asia UTF-16 might be more common
* [9:04] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: doesn't know the relation of UTF-8 and Latin-1
* [9:05] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Bah. Just go for 128 bits and be safe for the forseeable future, like with IPv6 and ZFS ;-)
* [9:06] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: envisions a text-chat in hand drawn fonts, using UTF-Key
* [9:06] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Arawn - Latin1 is a character set, ISO -8860-1, which maps numbers in the range 0 - 255 onto character codes... though 64 of them are control codes that have not graphical character
* [9:06] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Latin1 is usually encoded by placing one code point per byte
* [9:06] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: UTF-8 is an encoding of the Unicode, which places each code point in between 1 and 4 bytes
* [9:07] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Unicode is a mapping between numbers in the range 0 and 0x10FFFF and character codes
* [9:07] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: though not all ar assigned!
* [9:07] [[User:Leffard Lassard|Leffard Lassard]]: I have a reference to .net and unicode: [http://www.yoda.arachsys.com/csharp/unicode.html.] They say something contradictory unfortunately.
* [9:07] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: So, Latin-1 could be mapped to UTF-2?
* [9:07] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: What is UTF-2?
* [9:08] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Latin1 is effectively both a character mapping and an encoding
* [9:08] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Here is the common confusion
* [9:08] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: ASCII forms a proper subset of BOTH Latin1 and UTF-8
* [9:08] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: ?
* [9:08] [[User:Kristoffer Drake|Kristoffer Drake]]: Just what I was thinking Tree!
* [9:08] [[User:Leffard Lassard|Leffard Lassard]]: Abstract is: chars are 16bit wide, strings are a sequence of chars basically. But reader classes do nevertheless support utf8.
* [9:09] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: That is - the letter A is mapped to the same code point in Latin1 and Unicode, and the same single byte value in both Latin1 and UTF-8 encodings
* [9:09] [[User:Arawn Spitteler|Arawn Spitteler]]: 2?
* [9:10] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Leffard - do you know if they decode characters above U+FFFF into pairs of 16bit chars? This is what Java did since it too made the mistake of defining char to be 16 bits
* [9:11] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: This is all very interesting ... but I'm trying to see where it affects infrastructure.
* [9:11] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: It impacts what people wil have to/want to buid
* [9:11] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: In terms of parser/on wire formats
* [9:12] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Not a huge hit, but a hit
* [9:12] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Leffard - can you parse <x>𐄷</x> and see how many characters you get?
* [9:12] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: seems like if the infrastructure has to support UTF 16 everywhere, it would be more overhead
* [9:12] [[User:Leffard Lassard|Leffard Lassard]]: Hmm. I will look at this page. It doesnt state it explicitly. I can do that.
* [9:12] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Morgaine - it matters because we need to be clear with what we think we are dealing with - too much laxness in this area leads to things like engineers just
* [9:13] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: thinking that characters are 16 bit
* [9:13] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: Exactly
* [9:13] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: We're setting the bar for parsers and data structures
* [9:13] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: anyone have the first 40 minutes LOL/
* [9:13] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: "You must expect and handle a 4 byte field, here, HERE<, and HERE"
* [9:13] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: 𐄷
* [9:13] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: transcript thereof?
* [9:13] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]: Zero: yeah, but you still haven't answered WHERE, merely WHY :-)
* [9:14] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: or thinking that they can push arbitrary binary data through
* [9:14] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: well - in all our string fields
* [9:14] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: I want us to be aware that we thing strings are Unicode Strings - further refined by what XML can handle (it outlaws 13 control codes)
* [9:15] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: This is one of those tiny, but vital things
* [9:15] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: accepted your inventory offer.
* [9:15] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: And then we have to be aware that if we ever say something like "the Foobar with a name that matches the Whatsit title"
* [9:15] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: that this inovles normalization and comparison
* [9:15] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: Thanks tree. Still can't puzzle out thatmessage though :-(
* [9:16] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: 𐄷 is the XML character reference to U+10137 AEGEAN WEIGGHT BASE UNIT
* [9:16] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: which look like
* [9:16] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: which - oddly enough, my Mac has a glyph for! but it doesn't display in SL
* [9:17] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: the wrong fonts are merged on-the-fly for htat
* [9:18] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: loves playing with Google Translator
* [9:18] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: listens and watches
* [9:19] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Leffard - I would really appreciate it if you can try parsing that XML document and letting me know what it produces
* [9:19] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: e-mail me the result, if you would...
* [9:21] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: ZEro, a tiny documentation issue for a sec?
* [9:21] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Please, Sai
* [9:21] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: admires teh program that took over his screen while he was typing
* [9:21] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: internet exploder just shows it as a neato little square
* [9:22] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: the current docs are based on the text-only format of the RFC. MS (and probably others) add a little eyecandy to their online/pdf version to make it more readable while not making it any harder to convert to text-only
* [9:23] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: by the way, just so you know that this stuff *matters* - last Wednesday, I got pulled out of a meeting to help five other engineers puzzle out a problem in the database
* [9:23] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: things like itallics, bold face and two-tone tables to list attributes
* [9:23] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: related to a group anme that had this character in it:
* [9:23] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: awww
* [9:23] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Which, for you Mac people (self included) is U+2764 HEAVY BLACK HEART
* [9:24] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: which is how we felt after it took the five of us an hour to puzzle it out, then two senior devs five hours more to repair the database
* [9:24] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: has a little object that shows the difference between chat, and floating text for utf. Very confusing at times
* [9:24] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: and all because of lack of attention to the charset encoding issues
* [9:24] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: its a heart on my pc running vista too
* [9:24] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: anyway, was wondering if we could add some simple eyecandy to the draft SLGOGP to make it easier to read as long as it didn't make it harder to turn into a text-only document
* [9:24] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: and XP
* [9:25] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Saijanai - which version do you mean, the wikitext version?
* [9:25] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: I generate the docs as follows
* [9:26] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: right
* [9:26] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: XML Specification based source --(xslt)--> HTML --(print menu in Safari)--> PDF
* [9:26] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: XML Specification based source --(xslt)--> MediaWiki wikitext
* [9:26] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: for posterity we should try to describe in the log what 10137 is
* [9:27] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: unfortunately its just a square here too: [http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Unicode/Character_reference/10000-10FFF]
* [9:27] [[User:Zha Ewry|Zha Ewry]]: waves to posteirity
* [9:27] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: does the XML Specification not support, say, 2-tone table output?
* [9:27] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: for posterity: U+10137 looks like hanging balance scale: a T with a small triangle hanging off each arm of the T
* [9:27] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: e.g. page 13-14 of this: [http://download.microsoft.com/download/5/D/D/5DD33FDF-91F5-496D-9884-0A0B0EE698BB/%5BMS-OXPROTO%5D.pdf]
* [9:28] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: XML Specification doesn't say anything about how the rows of the table should be presented... that's all in the XSLT
* [9:28] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: and the .css that accompanies the HTML version
* [9:28] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: searches my UTF 16 keyboard for the mini scale key....
* [9:28] [[User:Leffard Lassard|Leffard Lassard]]: Zero: Yeah, but I dont get it right now. I can try a time and send you an IM or email with a testprogram for mono that shows the results.
* [9:29] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: Leffard - that would be wonderul - thank you
* [9:29] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: also, is there a place I can find that. I've been manually tweaking the strawman login rez_avatar to look like the SLGOGP. I guess I should be working with the XML SPecification stuff directly instead of tweaking wiki s-ecific code
* [9:29] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: wiki-specific *
* [9:29] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: uhm, yes - I'll put up my tool chain info
* [9:30] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: pities the foo that had to carve out the original UTF 16 character set in the 17th century
* [9:30] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: okay all - thanks for indulging my Unicode fetish
* [9:30] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: You indicated that this would become the stndard format for all future protocol docs, right?
* [9:30] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: (whcih, I admit is a personal joy of mine!)
* [9:30] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: I've got to run....
* [9:31] [[User:Zero Linden|Zero Linden]]: until next week
* [9:31] [[User:Wyn Galbraith|Wyn Galbraith]]: Thanks for the meeting Zero.
* [9:31] [[User:Kristoffer Drake|Kristoffer Drake]]: ok, cheerio
* [9:31] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: admires anyone that mages to obsess sucessfully over unicode
* [9:31] [[User:Qie Niangao|Qie Niangao]]: thanks, Zero
* [9:31] [[User:Tree Kyomoon|Tree Kyomoon]]: ciao zero!
* [9:31] [[User:Wyn Galbraith|Wyn Galbraith]]: has to run as well. C U 8tr!
* [9:31] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]: later Zero

User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 Apr 17 - Revision history

Tree Kyomoon: New page: * [8:30] Wyn Galbraith: has seen the black helios * [8:30] Arawn Spitteler: FEMA Heliocopters are only the tip of the iceberg * [8:30] [[U...