Mesh/Archive/2012-01-23

Agenda

1. With the Shape height editor's limited range, it makes creating the range of avatars that users want more complicated than it needs to be for mesh creators. I suggest broadening the range for the Shape Height Editor to something similar to .25m to 5m. This would allow the user a much broader range of, not only mesh avatar sizes, but also normal avatars. Can LL please consider this jira? https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-28098 (Medhue Simoni)
2. I noticed that the newest Viewers (3.2.6 and 3.2.5) seem to render meshes with alpha-textures just fine. However, I couldn't find anything about it mentioned in the Release Notes. So, may this be just a coincidence or was it fixed by accident or intentional? Maybe due to the recent OpenGL changes? In case it really has been fixed, I would like to know since which Viewer Version? See these Screenshots for more details: http://kaulkonzept.de/sl/alpha-301.jpg and http://kaulkonzept.de/sl/alpha-326.jpg (Domsson Lean - I may not be online during the meeting, but will scan the Log afterwards!)
3. From what I understand the way the land impact is calculated I am uncertain I can lower the primmage. I tried to change my four prim store to the new physics system, its land impact was suddenly 24. Basically, I can make a Mesh building that takes a lot less server resources and that would look better and use less graphics resources for peoples viewer. The land impact would be lower than 24, but higher than 4. I have been in contact with some Lindens about this, what they was hoping was that people would adopt Mesh and thus lower the resources their server had to handle. Mesh uses a lot less resources than prims and they wanted people to use this. But they can't suddenly change the system to have all old things use the land impact system, it would break a lot of content. The truth is, they are in a bit of a bind over this. They pretty much admitted as much directly over IM to me.
   1. Possible partway solution; lower the land impact of mesh objects just enough the heightened Land Impact isn't too big a price to own cooler Mesh items, I think you will need to make a compromise between Lower resource cost and how cheap it is to have Mesh items ressed, or you will keep being stuck with the slow Mesh adoption rate no matter what.
   2. Another possible partway solution to the slow adoption of Mesh; Buy the complete rights to distribute Mesh studio made by theBlackBox and incorporate it in the viewers or add it in the default inventory library. (Mesh studio convert prim link sets to Mesh-files, including details such as path cuts and the like.)
   3. I may be wrong about this, but right now it feels like I am not. XD I might not be at the user group, but if that is the case I will read the transcript. -- Davido Chrome
4. If there are old CTS jiras we are still interested in, should we make new VWR ones? (I think of CTS- 567, 496 (pivot offset) and 631 (adjustable LOD). [Drongle McMahon]
5. VWR-28179 Mesh upload hangs after 'Calculate Weights and Fee'. UPLOAD FEE, LAND IMPACT etc remain at 'TBD' https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-28179?
6. Stats related to mesh adoption [Charlar Linden]

Meeting Notes

Attendees List

• AdorableAmy (adorableamy)
• Al Supercharge (al.supercharge)
• Asha (ashasekayi.ra)
• Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)
• ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)
• Domsson Lean (domsson.lean)
• Drongle McMahon (drongle.mcmahon)
• Gramma Fiddlesticks (gramma.fiddlesticks)
• Greetings (greetings)
• Helena Lycia (helena.lycia) (User's Wiki Page)
• JIRA-helper (jira-helper)
• Medhue Simoni (medhue.simoni)
• Nal (nalates.urriah)
• NeroVergil (nerovergil)
• Nyx Linden (nyx.linden) (User's Wiki Page)
• retrometer (retrometer)
• davep (runitai.linden)
• Koli Contepomi (sahkolihaa.contepomi)
• Second Life (second.life)
• Sera Lok (sera.lok) (User's Wiki Page)
• TheBlack Box (theblack.box) (User's Wiki Page)
• Tiberious Neruda (tiberious.neruda)
• Vir Linden (vir.linden)
• Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)

Transcript for Monday January 23, 2012

[12:00]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)	Hello Runitai! you are robot.
[12:01]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Hey Medhue and Black Box
[12:01]	davep (runitai.linden)	xeno something or other
[12:01]	Koli Contepomi (sahkolihaa.contepomi)	Now I have sound again. Stupid Windows 7 audio service. -.-
[12:01]	TheBlack Box	hey hey
[12:01]	Medhue Simoni	hey lindens
[12:01]	Helena Lycia	Hello Vir
[12:01]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)	Hello Vir. Thank you for sprint 35. Now I am waiting for release it.
[12:01]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Heya Lindens
[12:01]	Vir Linden	Howdy folks.
[12:02]	Tiberious Neruda	what's in that?
[12:02]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	Starting in a moment
[12:02]	Greetings	Medhue Simoni would like for you to pet them, say yes to accept
[12:02]	Vir Linden	Sprint 35 is next sprint - 34 is what we're on now.
[12:02]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	agenda: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group
[12:02]	TheBlack Box	before we begin here ... which Linden has done most of the SL collada parsing ?
[12:03]	AdorableAmy	oops sorry did not want to desturb
[12:03]	AdorableAmy	was just wandering arround
[12:03]	TheBlack Box	whoever did it .... it is better than Blenders and Meshlabs collada parsing ... well done !
[12:03]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	Black box - do you want to add the question to the agenda?
[12:03]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	oh
[12:03]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	haha
[12:04]	TheBlack Box	SL Mesh upload is much more robust than all other collada imports i have tested thus far ... so kudos ! :)
[12:04]	davep (runitai.linden)	just followed the spec...
[12:04]	Greetings	Medhue Simoni was petted by Charlar Linden
[12:04]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	lol
[12:04]	TheBlack Box	yeah .. some of the other imports feel like they did it with regex ...
[12:04]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	alrighty
[12:04]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	Starting
[12:04]	Second Life	Splinter Smirnov (splinter.smirnov) is now known as Splinteroid.
[12:05]	Al Supercharge	I assume were not using voice ?
[12:05]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	1) With the Shape height editor's limited range, it makes creating the range of avatars that users want more complicated than it needs to be for mesh creators. I suggest broadening the range for the Shape Height Editor to something similar to .25m to 5m. This would allow the user a much broader range of, not only mesh avatar sizes, but also normal avatars. Can LL please consider this jira? https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-28098 (Medhue Simoni)
[12:05]	Tiberious Neruda	nope
[12:05]	Tiberious Neruda	all text, so we can have a record of the conversation
[12:05]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	AI - we do text, easier for doc and for non-english speakers
[12:05]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)	Please!
[12:06]	Al Supercharge	I hav a mesh Jira -- let me know when its ok to talk about it
[12:06]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	I'll put an update in the JIRA, with details.
[12:07]	Nyx Linden	add it to the agenda please Al :)
[12:07]	Medhue Simoni	cool
[12:07]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)	Now I see it.
[12:07]	Al Supercharge	wheres the page ?
[12:07]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	next
[12:07]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Agenda: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation,_Mesh_Import,_Scripting_User_Group
[12:07]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	2) I noticed that the newest Viewers (3.2.6 and 3.2.5) seem to render meshes with alpha-textures just fine. However, I couldn't find anything about it mentioned in the Release Notes. So, may this be just a coincidence or was it fixed by accident or intentional? Maybe due to the recent OpenGL changes? In case it really has been fixed, I would like to know since which Viewer Version? See these Screenshots for more details: http://kaulkonzept.de/sl/alpha-301.jpg and http://kaulkonzept.de/sl/alpha-326.jpg (Domsson Lean - I may not be online during the meeting, but will scan the Log afterwards!)
[12:08]	Domsson Lean	I made it. ;)
[12:08]	davep (runitai.linden)	there's still an issue with rigged attachments
[12:08]	davep (runitai.linden)	it's been fixed internally but hasn't gone to beta yet
[12:08]	davep (runitai.linden)	that's SH-2779
[12:09]	Tiberious Neruda	define 'issue'
[12:09]	davep (runitai.linden)	not sure about non-rigged attachments
[12:09]	Domsson Lean	But it works fine for non-rigged?
[12:09]	Domsson Lean	Oh.
[12:09]	davep (runitai.linden)	issue -- they don't get rendered to the color buffer if shadows are enabled
[12:09]	Tiberious Neruda	you mean alpha textures on rigged meshes causing an invisiprim-like effect?
[12:09]	davep (runitai.linden)	yeah
[12:09]	Tiberious Neruda	I hope that stays in, honestly
[12:09]	Tiberious Neruda	at least as an option
[12:10]	Domsson Lean	So, since which viewer do those texture (mostly) work on non-rigged meshes?
[12:10]	Tiberious Neruda	my av here uses that as an intentional effect
[12:11]	davep (runitai.linden)	ahem
[12:11]	Koli Contepomi (sahkolihaa.contepomi)	(OT - Runitai, just crashed with this on shining-fixes: 2012-01-23T20:10:07Z llrender/llvertexbuffer.cpp(1863) : error
[12:11]	davep (runitai.linden)	not sure about the alpha issue with non-rigged meshes, do you know of a specific jira?
[12:12]	Tiberious Neruda	'bout the only way I'd give that up is if we had a way to enable variable-width 'line' geometry
[12:12]	davep (runitai.linden)	Koli: ugh, will keep an eye out for that on the crash reporter, thanks for the heads up
[12:12]	Domsson Lean	Nope, but isn't this a known issue like... ever since? :) Always ran into it when accidentaly uploaded alpha-textures for my sculpties, too.
[12:13]	Al Supercharge	Added https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-28179 to Agenda
[12:13]	JIRA-helper	[#VWR-28179] Mesh upload hangs after 'Calculate Weights and Fee'. UPLOAD FEE, LAND IMPACT etc remain at 'TBD' - Second Life Bug Tracker
[12:13]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	Domsson - I don't think we did any alpha specific work, but we have been doing a fair amount of work around mesh, so we're glad that it's improved
[12:14]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	next item
[12:14]	Domsson Lean	BTW, what I'm wondering about is whether we will be able to use alpha-textures on meshes, which would enable us to build things that are complex in high LOD, but extremely simple in low LOD - like a palette or park bench with a lot of planks, for exmaple.
[12:14]	davep (runitai.linden)	yes, it should be safe
[12:14]	Domsson Lean	...from Viewer xxx on?
[12:14]	Drongle McMahon	You can do that now.
[12:14]	davep (runitai.linden)	if it doesn't work, please open a jira
[12:15]	Domsson Lean	Cool, thanks.
[12:15]	Tiberious Neruda	Domsson, that's doable now
[12:15]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	ok, moving to the next item.
[12:15]	Tiberious Neruda	you just need to add a bit of hidden geometry with the low-LOD alpha texture in the higher LODs
[12:16]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	3) From what I understand the way the land impact is calculated I am uncertain I can lower the primmage. I tried to change my four prim store to the new physics system, its land impact was suddenly 24. Basically, I can make a Mesh building that takes a lot less server resources and that would look better and use less graphics resources for peoples viewer. The land impact would be lower than 24, but higher than 4. I have been in contact with some Lindens about this, what they was hoping was that people would adopt Mesh and thus lower the resources their server had to handle. Mesh uses a lot less resources than prims and they wanted people to use this. But they can't suddenly change the system to have all old things use the land impact system, it would break a lot of content. The truth is, they are in a bit of a bind over this. They pretty much admitted as much directly over IM to me.
[12:16]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	Possible partway solution; lower the land impact of mesh objects just enough the heightened Land Impact isn't too big a price to own cooler Mesh items, I think you will need to make a compromise between Lower resource cost and how cheap it is to have Mesh items ressed, or you will keep being stuck with the slow Mesh adoption rate no matter what.
[12:18]	Medhue Simoni	lol
[12:18]	TheBlack Box	oh my name .. i better read tat ... sry was in IM
[12:18]	Drongle McMahon	Need to see the store. I would guess it can be done in less than four prims.
[12:19]	Helena Lycia	Yeah
[12:19]	Tiberious Neruda	ah yes... this's something those of us that've been working with mesh since beta have been asking about constantly... why are meshes being penalized for the inefficiencies of prims?
[12:19]	Nyx Linden	so we made a new system for calculating land impact with the mesh accounting system, and the issue is that it counts things significantly differently, so that the scale of "new cost" to "old cost" isn't a fixed ratio we can just tweak. The new system is attempting to be more honest & accurate about the actual cost of content in terms of load.
[12:19]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	That's the store
[12:19]	Nyx Linden	please move the store outside the meeting area :)
[12:19]	retrometer	when is Second Life 2 coming out?
[12:20]	Nyx Linden	there's some open grass around the building
[12:20]	retrometer	like with a new Engine
[12:20]	TheBlack Box	ah never mind ... just leave the in-world Meh tool biseness to me :) no need to integrate anything into the SL viewer :)
[12:20]	Helena Lycia	Eeep
[12:20]	retrometer	:3
[12:20]	Helena Lycia	How different will the new system be?
[12:20]	Nyx Linden	we have the old calculations in place so that legacy content is still equally supported, but the new metrics should be encouraigng more efficient content
[12:20]	Helena Lycia	Will I suddenly find my 200PE building is 2000PE?
[12:20]	Drongle McMahon	Ah. Sculpties/
[12:21]	Nyx Linden	Helena - the "new system" I'm referring to is already rolled out, its the accounting system released with mesh
[12:21]	davep (runitai.linden)	Helena: the current system is the "new" system
[12:21]	Helena Lycia	Ah
[12:21]	Tiberious Neruda	yes, but we were always assured that the mesh costs were introduced high intending to lower them later
[12:21]	Nyx Linden	so the land impact numbers you see now are accurate, not changing :)
[12:21]	Helena Lycia	IT would still be nice to create a simple mesh torus that had physics to match and was 1PE
[12:24]	TheBlack Box	Helena: i think we can forget a 1:1 equivelency between prims and mesh ... a hollow torus with 4 revelations has an insane amount of vertices
[12:24]	Nyx Linden	a torus is not geometrically simple, from a perspective of load :)
[12:24]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	And About as many faces...
[12:25]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	Remember that we're now measuring actual impact on our systems. The old system did not measure anything, it was more arbitrary.
[12:25]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	Does and evenly curved surface cause less land impact than a craggy one with the same amouint of faqces?
[12:25]	Helena Lycia	Yeah I know but something close to parity for a undistorted torus would be nice, all my mesh buildings are somewhat square
[12:25]	davep (runitai.linden)	AlveKatt: depends on the specific mesh -- experiment on aditi and find out
[12:25]	Helena Lycia	The new system might be farer but it's making the world a less round place
[12:25]	TheBlack Box	well charlar ... you could say that regular prims reflect network load alright
[12:25]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	Let's move on and if you have followup questions post them to the agenda, please
[12:26]	Domsson Lean	Helena, you can still use a prim torus. ;)
[12:26]	Helena Lycia	Until you like them to mesh bits and get prim escalation
[12:26]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	The reason I brought this up is that it would be more effective server load lowering if you made a compromise about this, so that people are more likely to adapt Meshes.
[12:26]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	Black Box - true, it does match network load for prims. Not for sculpts though.
[12:27]	Tiberious Neruda	yeah. Mesh adoption rates are still slow
[12:27]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	They really quite high, actually
[12:27]	TheBlack Box	right ... buit for sculpts it reflects rendering cost alright :)
[12:27]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	I'll cover some stats at the end of the meeting.
[12:27]	davep (runitai.linden)	AlveKatt: have you read this? http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh/Mesh_Streaming_Cost
[12:28]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	Ok.
[12:28]	Tiberious Neruda	we're, what, just about half a year past main grid release?
[12:28]	davep (runitai.linden)	it explains the numbers behind the streaming cost
[12:28]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	Blackbox - correct, in that they're not measuring correctly somewhere. :-)
[12:28]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	Moving on...add anything new to the agenda
[12:28]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	4) If there are old CTS jiras we are still interested in, should we make new VWR ones? (I think of CTS- 567, 496 (pivot offset) and 631 (adjustable LOD). [Drongle McMahon]
[12:28]	JIRA-helper	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/CTS-567
[12:28]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	No, asked fora wikipage with thast information on the other user group though... Server/scripting.
[12:29]	Vir Linden	Yes, please file new VWRs for those. As you probably know, mesh feature work is not high on our current priorities, but things can always change.
[12:30]	Drongle McMahon	Trouble is there are people selling very unoptimised meshes. Much learning is still needed.
[12:30]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	No kidding
[12:30]	Gramma Fiddlesticks	oh I totally agree there Drongle!!
[12:30]	Drongle McMahon	OK. I will redo them in VWR
[12:30]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	I agree Drongle
[12:31]	Drongle McMahon	I made a version of one marketplace item that was 22 instead of about 400 LI.
[12:31]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	ok, last item.
[12:31]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	5) VWR-28179 Mesh upload hangs after 'Calculate Weights and Fee'. UPLOAD FEE, LAND IMPACT etc remain at 'TBD'
[12:32]	Gramma Fiddlesticks	saw that happen just yesterday in a class!!!
[12:32]	Domsson Lean	Drongle, I guess and hope that this will regulate itself - if two identical items are available, consumers will choose the one with less LI.
[12:32]	Drongle McMahon	That happens to me a lot ..... I just close it and start again.
[12:32]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	It was probably a worn item.
[12:32]	davep (runitai.linden)	jiggle the handle...
[12:32]	Al Supercharge	is all the mesh calc done on the server ?
[12:32]	Domsson Lean	To No.5 - I'm running into this right now on the beta grid. All the time. Just like... all the time.
[12:32]	Tiberious Neruda	speaking of mesh errors...
[12:32]	davep (runitai.linden)	Al: yes, so clicking the "calculate weights and fees" button can take awhile for large meshes
[12:33]	Gramma Fiddlesticks	I tried all afternoon to get a mesh upload to complete yesterday.
[12:33]	Tiberious Neruda	what causes the mesh queue to get stuck so that no new meshes will load?
[12:33]	Helena Lycia	Sometimes it just stops
[12:33]	Gramma Fiddlesticks	never did so.
[12:33]	Domsson Lean	And somtimes (=often) won't finish ever.
[12:33]	Drongle McMahon	"A whiel" = ??
[12:33]	Helena Lycia	Even for small meshes
[12:33]	davep (runitai.linden)	Tiberious: good question -- looking into that this week
[12:33]	Al Supercharge	this mesh in partic is pretty simple -- from ROKURO
[12:33]	davep (runitai.linden)	it's possible the server is generating an error and the viewer isn't displaying it
[12:33]	Gramma Fiddlesticks	a simple little table very well done.
[12:33]	davep (runitai.linden)	can you add a .dae to the jira?
[12:33]	Domsson Lean	Ran into it today - with a cylinder shaped mesh.
[12:34]	Domsson Lean	Basically I'm running into it with every mesh. Just start again... won't finish. Okay, again... won't finish. Again.. oh, there you go!
[12:34]	davep (runitai.linden)	and does it happen on every simulator? does the same .dae always produce the same error? When the error occurs, does any .dae work?
[12:34]	davep (runitai.linden)	hmm
[12:34]	Al Supercharge	Jira talks about it on ADITI too
[12:34]	Helena Lycia	When Calculate or Upload just do nothing, I generally toggle one feature of the mesh to allow me to hit Calculate/Upload again and it works
[12:34]	Drongle McMahon	We still have the material subset thing requiring all hi lod materials too :-(
[12:35]	Helena Lycia	It's as though the command gets lost on the way to SL
[12:35]	Gramma Fiddlesticks	I tired mine on 4 different sims here on main grid and 3 different sims on beta.
[12:35]	Domsson Lean	Helena, exactly.
[12:35]	Al Supercharge	I wish ther was an ERROR !
[12:35]	Domsson Lean	Runitai: Haven't looked into it in detail, since it _will_ work when you try a few times. I'll have a closer look from now on.
[12:35]	Drongle McMahon	Yes ... for me it's intermittent
[12:35]	Gramma Fiddlesticks	if there's an error I'd sure love to know what it is. =\
[12:35]	Domsson Lean	Zactly. :)
[12:35]	Al Supercharge	it just hangs
[12:36]	Gramma Fiddlesticks	yup. Hangs and hangs and hangs. =\
[12:36]	Domsson Lean	Yip. Then try again, it works.
[12:36]	Drongle McMahon	...then the same files work next try.
[12:36]	Domsson Lean	Or on the next try. Or the one after that.
[12:36]	Gramma Fiddlesticks	or sometimes on the next day!
[12:36]	davep (runitai.linden)	kk, we'll need to bring that into shining and get it on the backlog
[12:36]	Al Supercharge	tho u can go ahead and make more changes and the CALC button becomes active again
[12:36]	Gramma Fiddlesticks	not always though Al. =\
[12:36]	Al Supercharge	( one wonders if its not doing multi-calcs)
[12:36]	TheBlack Box	i did't have any trouble with SL mesh upload ever since i started to check the collada files for validity with: xmllint --noout --schema http://www.khronos.org/files/collada_schema_1_4 myMesh.dae
[12:37]	Domsson Lean	Yeah, most of the times I just "analyze" the physic shape again, to be able to hit the Calc button again.
[12:37]	davep (runitai.linden)	sounds like there's an error case we're not handling or the server is dropping requests on the floor
[12:37]	Drongle McMahon	The servers are deaf?
[12:37]	Gramma Fiddlesticks	I got mine to finally upload today.
[12:37]	Gramma Fiddlesticks	But yesterday it would not upload no matter what i did.
[12:38]	Gramma Fiddlesticks	and I changed NOTHING on it today.
[12:38]	Al Supercharge	I tried this morn -- no success
[12:38]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	Anyone interested in some mesh-related stats?
[12:38]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	yes
[12:38]	Gramma Fiddlesticks	yes please. =)
[12:38]	TheBlack Box	sure
[12:39]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	me too!
[12:39]	Gramma Fiddlesticks	funny there Charlar.
[12:39]	Tiberious Neruda	sure
[12:39]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	Yes.
[12:39]	Tiberious Neruda	just a shame you guys aren't working on materials yet... would have some really good suggestions :3
[12:40]	Domsson Lean	I'm sure mesh will adapt just fine, even without any further changes on the upload/land impact costs. You can just build much more high quality, and people (=customers) will notice that, hence in no time everyone will only want to buy mesh, no matter if it's a few prims more than their sculptie stuff. Which leads me to: WHY isn't there an "only 100% mesh" filter on the marketplace? >___< this would be _so_ helpful.
[12:40]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	Regions with Mesh - 26%
[12:41]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	Domsson, I'm talking with Marketplace to get some more mesh related and LI related filters and such.
[12:41]	Tiberious Neruda	the only problem is that it takes effort to be able to upload mesh
[12:41]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	The regions with Mesh stat. does it onclude regions with only one mesh?
[12:41]	Helena Lycia	There seem to be mesh refusniks out there... I've heard some really daft excuses why people aren't using mesh viewers
[12:41]	TheBlack Box	Residents using mesh viewers went up just recently a lot i think ... at least as far as i could see
[12:41]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	If a region has a mesh rezzed, it counts.
[12:41]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	What does "Duration of sessions with mesh viewers- 66%" mean?
[12:41]	Tiberious Neruda	that can be attributed to Firestorm and Phoenix releasing mesh-enabled viewers
[12:41]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	Nal, it means how long people were logged in with a mesh enabled viewer
[12:42]	Gramma Fiddlesticks	Does than number also inlcude the 'see mesh" only TPV viewers like Singularity??
[12:42]	Domsson Lean	Charlar, that's nice to hear. Such filters would help customers, creators AND LL. :)
[12:42]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	66% of all the the time people were logged in, they were using mesh enabled viewer
[12:42]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	66% longer?
[12:42]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	oh ok
[12:42]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	I know there are refusniks out there. I have my home in a sim managed by such. They have 20 sims, and I think my Stool is the only Mesh item on them.
[12:42]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	thx... I'll wear blond hair next time
[12:42]	Tiberious Neruda	I'm honestly thinking it's coming time where you guys need to enforce certain features at connection, and turn away clients that don't support what's needed, mesh being one of them
[12:43]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	I agree that it would be really helpful to have those filters.
[12:43]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	Made by Fiddlesticks here if I remember correctly.
[12:43]	Domsson Lean	And since those database fields are already there, it wouldn't be too hard to create filters for them - I assume. :)
[12:43]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	I don't see why anyone wants to force users into a specific viewer if its not causing a problem...
[12:44]	Tiberious Neruda	you can't rely on the TPV people to require updates; the PH/FS team have flatly stated they wouldn't make any new version a mandatory update
[12:44]	Gramma Fiddlesticks	neither do I Nalates.
[12:44]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	So, those people will just see blobs as more and more people use mesh.
[12:44]	Gramma Fiddlesticks	isn't the whole TPV thing about giving people chocies?
[12:44]	davep (runitai.linden)	/me often does A/B tests between development viewers and 1.23
[12:44]	Tiberious Neruda	well, I figure those 'refuseniks' would either get dragged kicking and screaming into mesh clients, or forced out
[12:44]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	It will take care of itself.
[12:45]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	I believe the market will move everyone to WANT mesh pretty soon.
[12:45]	Helena Lycia	I think just leave them alone, they're going to end up in an increasingly weird looking world if they don't switch
[12:45]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Agreed Charlar
[12:45]	Domsson Lean	Btw, somewhere in the marketplace there should probably be a notice, that "land impact / prim count" for meshes is only true as long as the customers doesn't change the objects size. but that's a bit off topic now.
[12:45]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	minus those people who refuse for religious reasons
[12:45]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	LL doesn't need to start a war by forcing the issue.
[12:45]	TheBlack Box	some people dont like it if some visitors on their sim see some other visitors on their sim naked (non-mesh avatar with mesh clothing seen through a non-mesh viewer
[12:45]	davep (runitai.linden)	your world, your choice in viewer :-p
[12:45]	Helena Lycia	Mesh is a religion?
[12:45]	Gramma Fiddlesticks	Exactly Ashasekayi!!
[12:46]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	Where I live it's the sim managers that are refuseniks though. 20 sims.
[12:46]	Domsson Lean	I think in Charlar is right: everyone will be begging for mesh items pretty soon. So, like asha said: it will take care of itself.
[12:46]	Gramma Fiddlesticks	just recall how sculpts were reacted to back in 2007.
[12:46]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	SIM managers are paying for the SIM. Let hem do what they want.
[12:46]	Drongle McMahon	AlveKatt ... you could move out and tell them why?
[12:46]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	OMG, a resident said I was right!
[12:46]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	lol
[12:46]	Helena Lycia	I came across an oddity today... I was wondering if anyone here could explain it and how I deal with it
[12:47]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Two did
[12:47]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	lol...
[12:47]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	2?
[12:47]	Gramma Fiddlesticks	don't let that happen again Charlar! *grin
[12:47]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Yes 2..lol
[12:47]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	/me looks for his fainting AO
[12:47]	TheBlack Box	you must have heard that wrong charlar ... all residents know lindens are NEVER right :))
[12:47]	Domsson Lean	Asha agreed, too. :P
[12:47]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	I'll say it too, You're right.
[12:47]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	/me laughs
[12:47]	davep (runitai.linden)	Helena: what oddity?
[12:47]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	Drongle, that might work if I was actually paying rent there. Friends let me stay on their lot.
[12:47]	Helena Lycia	Oh great, the meshes aren't rezzing for me
[12:48]	NeroVergil	hi
[12:48]	Tiberious Neruda	stuck mesh queue, it seems
[12:48]	NeroVergil	i just wanted to say, fuck all of u
[12:48]	NeroVergil	Outstanding!
[12:48]	NeroVergil	have a day
[12:48]	Drongle McMahon	Oh
[12:48]	Helena Lycia	I create a skittles pin, and then created a new one
[12:48]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Hugs to you too
[12:48]	Koli Contepomi (sahkolihaa.contepomi)	Well that was random.
[12:48]	Gramma Fiddlesticks	Love you too nero
[12:48]	Helena Lycia	But it floats above the ground even though I haven't done anything different with the physics
[12:48]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	/me laughs
[12:48]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	glad he came
[12:48]	Helena Lycia	And compared to a prim sphere, it's really quite high up
[12:48]	Gramma Fiddlesticks	Nice gentlemen huh?
[12:49]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Yep, that was refreshing.
[12:49]	Tiberious Neruda	ah yes... the floating physics meah
[12:49]	Domsson Lean	Haha, that guy has balls. Coming to a meeting where several Lindens are. And then insulting all of em. :P
[12:49]	Tiberious Neruda	mesh, even
[12:49]	TheBlack Box	another group of mesh-refuseniks are managers of combat-sims ... where they dont want combatabt to rez mesh vehicles with a high LI/PE/PC/whatever it is called these days
[12:49]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	(Black Boxx...your mic is open.)
[12:49]	Helena Lycia	But why are two essentially identical meshes floating at different heights?
[12:49]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	Drongle, and I am not disliking it there, I just wanted to point out that the stats might be a bit off, I have a stool in my room, and it's probably the only mesh object in the sim.
[12:49]	davep (runitai.linden)	Helena: can I have the two pins ?
[12:49]	TheBlack Box	(sry)
[12:49]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	(no worries)
[12:49]	Tiberious Neruda	dave: I can send you a pair of my pins
[12:49]	Helena Lycia	Sure
[12:50]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	Davido - I try to make that clear. Thing is, the grid will NEVER be 100% covered in mesh items. There will always be lots of prims, and even sculpts. This does show that it's being adopted.
[12:50]	Tiberious Neruda	o.o
[12:50]	Tiberious Neruda	ack
[12:51]	Helena Lycia	It's really weird, and the original, which I got the smoothing on wrong slight, works fine in my project but the corrected version floars (and seems physically larger than it appears)
[12:51]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	Ok. I just want even more of mesh. Done right it causes less lag. And that is good for Simball.
[12:51]	davep (runitai.linden)	one's a box, and one's a volume
[12:51]	Tiberious Neruda	that one uses prims for physics shape... but if you unlink the mesh and set it to Prim collision, it does have a physics shape
[12:51]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	Folks, feel free to stay if you're interested in what Runitai is looking at, but the usergroup is over for the day.
[12:52]	Helena Lycia	Weird, I uploaded them with the same settings
[12:52]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Thanks for the meeting.
[12:52]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	Have a great day!
[12:52]	Helena Lycia	The only difference was the 3D program that was used to create the mesh
[12:52]	Nyx Linden	thanks for coming everyone! see you next week!
[12:52]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	thx Cahrlar
[12:52]	davep (runitai.linden)	one has physics shape set to prim, the other convex hull
[12:52]	Vir Linden	Bye all.
[12:52]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	Charlar^
[12:52]	TheBlack Box	oh btw ... are you lindens aware that there is a hack floating around to make multi-face sculpties ? :) that throws the LI/PE/PC/whatever calculation way off :)
[12:52]	Helena Lycia	Oh... that might just be me experimenting
[12:52]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	Charlar, can I give you something?
[12:52]	Helena Lycia	When both are set to prim they still behave differently
[12:53]	davep (runitai.linden)	yeah, the uploader saves the settings last used when you click "upload"
[12:53]	Tiberious Neruda	Helena, whatcha mean by 'skittles pin' anyway?
[12:53]	Drongle McMahon	Nyx. Your office has no meshes!
[12:53]	Helena Lycia	(They should both be prim for the game I'm developing)
[12:53]	davep (runitai.linden)	you can see the physics shape by doing develop->render metadata->physics shapes
[12:53]	Helena Lycia	Skittles is a game in England that is the forerunner to 10 pin bowling
[12:53]	Tiberious Neruda	ah
[12:53]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	How does that hack affect LI Black Box?
[12:53]	ÄlveKatt (davido.chrome)	I used the new physics system to make a physical vehicle out of 40 old style prims.
[12:53]	Tiberious Neruda	I'm actually workin' on a 10-pin game :3
[12:54]	TheBlack Box	Ash: more than 1 texture on the sculpt
[12:54]	Helena Lycia	Want to see my 9 pin game?
[12:54]	davep (runitai.linden)	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh/Mesh_physics
[12:54]	davep (runitai.linden)	that wiki page is a touch out of date
[12:54]	davep (runitai.linden)	but mostly correct
[12:54]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Right. But how does it mess up primcount?
[12:54]	Sera Lok	thank you Charlar^^
[12:54]	Tiberious Neruda	yeah. But see, prims with physics collide like they're supposed to
[12:54]	Tiberious Neruda	mesh physics shapes... don't
[12:54]	Drongle McMahon	I wish we could see the source code for physics weight calculation
[12:54]	Charlar The Terrible (charlar.linden)	bye!

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