Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.06.25

Simulator_User_Group

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List of Speakers

Adamburp Adamczyk	Alice Klinger	Baker Linden
Conrad Aluveaux	Drace Karaki	Duckie Dickins
Faust Vollmar	Fenix Eldritch	Honza Noyes
Ima Mechanique	JayR Cela	Jonathan Yap
Kennylex Luckless	Levio Serenity	Lexbot Sinister
Mona Eberhardt	Nalates Urriah	Qie Niangao
Rex Cronon	TankMaster Finesmith	Vincent Nacon
Whirly Fizzle	Yuzuru Jewell	Zanibar Reyener

Transcript

[11:58] JayR Cela: LOL :_)

[11:58] Zanibar Reyener: drace, come over here :3

[11:58] Drace Karaki: nuuuu

[11:58] Conrad Aluveaux: sit next to us >.>

[11:58] Duckie Dickins: A lot of new faces today

[11:58] Drace Karaki: im just tagging along Dx

[11:58] Yuzuru Jewell: Hello, Baker.

[11:58] Vincent Nacon: relax... those chairs...err... tables won't hurt you

[11:58] Mona Eberhardt: Hey Baker!

[11:58] Conrad Aluveaux: aw your place got taken >.> oh well

[11:58] Duckie Dickins: I hope this isn't another off topic day of please help us with griefers. lol

[11:59] Conrad Aluveaux: lol

[11:59] Yuzuru Jewell: Hello, Jpnathan and Inara.

[11:59] Vincent Nacon: well first we'd go over their news and then topic they wish to talk about.... the after that, table is open for all topic

[11:59] Vincent Nacon: then*

[11:59] Duckie Dickins: yeah....related to server development...

[12:00] Vincent Nacon: yup :)

[12:00] Baker Linden: Hey everyone, I'll be the lone linden here. Unfortunately, most questions y'all pose to Simon and Kelly I will be unable to answer

[12:00] Vincent Nacon: heya Baker

[12:00] Meeter: Welcome to the Server User Group

[12:01] JayR Cela: *waves* hi there Baker :_)

[12:01] Zanibar Reyener: hi baker :o

[12:02] Baker Linden: So instead, today I want to link everyone a nice little article by the SF Gate (one of our newspapers) where they interviewed Rodvik.

[12:02] Rex Cronon: hello everybody

[12:02] Baker Linden: First, here are the deploys for the week: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2013-06-24/td-p/2058449

[12:02] Yuzuru Jewell: Hello, Rex.

[12:02] Baker Linden: Don't ask me much else about it -- I've been working on group ban stuff :)

[12:02] Zanibar Reyener: and tony stark...with an afro? has joined us

[12:02] Rex Cronon: hi yuzuru

[12:03] Vincent Nacon: yeah, took you a while

[12:03] Vincent Nacon: muhaha!

[12:03] Conrad Aluveaux: lol

[12:03] Baker Linden: well, I've been working on refactoring the system that the group ban will be

[12:03] Zanibar Reyener: oh wizard had

[12:03] Zanibar Reyener: hat*

[12:03] Faust Vollmar: Awww, no amusingly massive name for the new xor function

[12:03] Conrad Aluveaux: and a pony

[12:03] Baker Linden: oh, sorry about that, it's not the SF Gate -- it's the San Francisco Chronicle: http://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Will-Second-Life-have-a-second-life-4616560.php?t=80d571fac747b02379

[12:03] Kennylex Luckless: Hia Barer and all random folks... and that linden.

[12:03] Baker Linden: it's definitely a worthwhile read

[12:04] Kennylex Luckless: Baker

[12:04] Rex Cronon: lol. afro. would be funny though:)

[12:04] Honza Noyes: Hi

[12:04] Baker Linden: Here's the SF Gate article -- but it's just some screen shots of second life over the last 10 years. http://blog.sfgate.com/techchron/2013/06/22/a-photo-history-of-second-lifes-10-years-more-from-linden-lab-ceo/#13454-14

[12:04] Duckie Dickins: is it like the BBC article that asked if Second Life was still here or not?

[12:05] Baker Linden: I'm unsure, Duckie. I haven't read that article

[12:05] Adamburp Adamczyk: ye olde british biased corporation

[12:06] Rex Cronon: this is good. now we have required reading before coming to class. i mean group meeting:)

[12:06] Vincent Nacon: muhaha!

[12:06] Baker Linden: Well, at least the required reading happens in-class :P

[12:06] Rex Cronon: popquiz too;)

[12:07] Conrad Aluveaux: and maybe we have to fill out test forms too >.>

[12:07] Vincent Nacon: so that's all the news for today, Baker?

[12:08] Baker Linden: Yeah, Feel free to ask questions; just be aware I'll most likely answer them as "I don't know the answer to that" or "I can't answer questions regarding that"

[12:08] Vincent Nacon: alrighty everyone, give him your most difficult questions

[12:08] Zanibar Reyener: Sure thing!

[12:09] Baker Linden: However, I can take questions / comments / musings about group ban related stuff

[12:09] Adamburp Adamczyk: who is tegh biggest practical joker in the ll office

[12:09] Honza Noyes: group ban?

[12:09] Faust Vollmar: Hows that coming along?

[12:09] Adamburp Adamczyk: the biggest practical joker*

[12:09] Vincent Nacon: I do have one question about group but isn't about the ban itself though

[12:09] Levio Serenity: will there be new things we can pass to llSetPirimiviteParams*() for normal and specular maps ?

[12:09] Vincent Nacon: I'll save it for later

[12:09] Baker Linden: Probably me, Adam, which is quite sad

[12:09] Duckie Dickins: Honza, banning people from being able to join rejoin a group..like spammers and such

[12:10] Zanibar Reyener: So I guess you probably don't have a general idea of when Server Side Baking will be fully implemented?

[12:10] Baker Linden: Tiger: I don't know the answer to that.

[12:10] Kennylex Luckless: Quick question; why do I drop down to 1 FPS when my inventory is loading?

[12:10] Honza Noyes: Ah.

[12:10] Baker Linden: Zanibar, no, sorry

[12:10] Baker Linden: this is the easiest user group ever

[12:10] Adamburp Adamczyk: i'll trade hints with you later in private then

[12:10] Vincent Nacon: Tiger... there will be but they're saving that for Phase 2

[12:10] Zanibar Reyener: Alrighty

[12:10] Conrad Aluveaux: I heard rumors that it comes on summer >.>

[12:10] Vincent Nacon: material is still going through phase 1

[12:10] Baker Linden: I'm sorry that I'm quite worthless at this

[12:10] Baker Linden: at least I have an afro now!

[12:10] Rex Cronon: u have over 9000 items kennylex;)

[12:10] Duckie Dickins: At least nobody is chasing you around dressed in a barbecue sauce bottle avatar..... :)

[12:10] TankMaster Finesmith: @ kenny, the code that processes the inventory data is on the same thread as the rendering

[12:11] Conrad Aluveaux: Afro birdie, amazing.

[12:11] Vincent Nacon: No worry Baker, at least we don't have a large grill for your size

[12:11] Kennylex Luckless: worthless is good, just look at Torley :)

[12:11] Baker Linden: So the group ban stuff is coming along slowly -- I'm currently refactoring existing code so that I can better implement group related functionality

[12:11] Adamburp Adamczyk: heheheheheheheh toely wasn't impressed by my joke once

[12:12] Rex Cronon: don't sweat baker. is not like your pixels can get hurt

[12:12] Honza Noyes: Speaking of groups, there is about 42 groups per avatar limit, right?

[12:12] Baker Linden: I believe so, Honza, that sounds right

[12:12] Conrad Aluveaux: i often hit that limit :P

[12:12] Qie Niangao: plus or minus zero

[12:12] TankMaster Finesmith: yes, each account can join a max of 42 groups

[12:12] Honza Noyes: Is there any reason for such limit?

[12:12] Zanibar Reyener: Oh! Are there any plans to help with the horrible groups performance? (ie the constant group chat failures and extreme difficulties with managing large groups))

[12:13] Duckie Dickins: Do you think there would be much lag from having to parse a very large list of banned avatars when someone joins a group? I mean it would have to confirm everyone upon join request that they weren't on the list to begin with.

[12:13] Conrad Aluveaux: sometimes i cant even open the group chat to certain groups :P

[12:13] Baker Linden: from the lore that I've heard, at one point we decided to limit the number of groups one could join -- so we picked the answer to the universe for that number :)

[12:13] Rex Cronon: what is the max size for the group banning thing baker?

[12:13] TankMaster Finesmith: honza - yes, its performance related in regard to land - each time you enter a parcle/region it checks what groups you are goined to to set the apperoperate permissions for rezzing, scripts, etc

[12:13] Honza Noyes: Right. Thank you.

[12:14] TankMaster Finesmith: the more groups, the more to check...

[12:14] Jonathan Yap: Baker, the limit was 20 for a long time, then it was increased to 42, fyi

[12:14] Baker Linden: ahh yes, Jonathan, you are correct!

[12:14] TankMaster Finesmith: was 10 before that, iirc

[12:14] TankMaster Finesmith: :D

[12:14] Baker Linden: A group ban list will be capped at 500 ban entries per group -- this is the standard for parcel bans, etc

[12:14] Vincent Nacon: must it be capped?

[12:14] Lexbot Sinister: it must.

[12:15] Vincent Nacon: I have a feeling some group will pass that limit

[12:15] Conrad Aluveaux: Everything needs to be capped on SL, imagine the server loads

[12:15] Jonathan Yap: Baker, I have a suggestion for group bans: record the date the person is banned so that information can be displayed in the viewer later on. that way when the list is full old bans can be removed first

[12:15] Baker Linden: Zanibar, the group ban stuff will not touch chat failures, and I'm unsure what "difficulties of large groups" means. Could you elaborate on that please? I might be able to answer given more specifics.

[12:15] Rex Cronon: all the entries in this ban list are uuid of other groups?

[12:15] Ima Mechanique: Jonathon, it was 25, 15 before that ;-)

[12:15] Vincent Nacon: so... this means we need to able manage the ban list

[12:15] Faust Vollmar: Yeah, being able to find the oldest bans first would be really nice since a cap is indeed necessary

[12:16] Duckie Dickins: what if the cap scaled based on the number of members?

[12:16] Conrad Aluveaux: that sounds like an awesome idea

[12:16] Vincent Nacon: I like that idea, Duckie

[12:16] Zanibar Reyener: I know in a couple of groups that have a lot of people in them, I fail to load their group information a good chunk of the time. Aside from that I can't really elaborate much.

[12:16] Baker Linden: Duckie, I don't think there will be much of a lag hit, as there will only be 500 entries in the group ban list (initially), and it'll be a very simple mysql call that shouldn't be an issue

[12:16] Lexbot Sinister: Would it be possible to see when last the person on the ban list was logged on? Like if they were still part of the group? So group admins/script can clean the ban list now and then from avatars that no longer log in, and make room for new bans?

[12:17] TankMaster Finesmith: Zanibar, what viewer are you using?

[12:17] Vincent Nacon: or something like a time-based ban?

[12:17] Baker Linden: Vincent, I suppose it doesn't, but for the sake of conformity (for now), I'm capping it at 500 -- which is the size of all other mute / ban lists

[12:17] Zanibar Reyener: Firestorm

[12:17] Duckie Dickins: or better yet....automagically remove avatars from the ban list if their accounts were disabled/deleted

[12:17] Vincent Nacon: that too

[12:17] TankMaster Finesmith: @ baker, whatll happen then the list is full?

[12:17] Baker Linden: I also agree that some groups will pass that limit. I'll be including dates of when you banned residents, so you can always delete oldest ones first if need be.

[12:17] TankMaster Finesmith: they cant add more, or the oldest will get auto kicked from the list?

[12:18] Faust Vollmar: woo

[12:18] Zanibar Reyener: Of course I guess it doesn't help that firestorm is like 20 something versions behind the official viewer :P

[12:18] Jonathan Yap: yay, dates \o/

[12:18] Mona Eberhardt: How many residents can be put in a parcel's (or region's) banlist?

[12:18] Duckie Dickins: I know that's been an issue with estate managers......I've had to in the past go through some of the ban lists to see if griefer accounts were still active or not to make room on the ban list

[12:18] TankMaster Finesmith: 3 versions behind

[12:18] Baker Linden: Rex, The entries in the list will be agent uuids. If the agent tries to join again, it'll check that list and see if they are on that list -- if so, they can't rejoin

[12:18] Vincent Nacon: aye

[12:18] Conrad Aluveaux: we could have a dynamic cap, so like calculate a number for max ban list entries that go with how many people in the group, if that number goes above 500 it raises

[12:18] Baker Linden: Vincent, time based bans are not being added to the initial launch

[12:19] Vincent Nacon: oh?

[12:19] Honza Noyes: Will there be any new LSL functions related to groups?

[12:19] Lexbot Sinister: thats too bad, some people most often just need to chill for a while

[12:19] Duckie Dickins: time based parcel bans were always glitchy.....I would think the same would happen to time based group bans

[12:19] Vincent Nacon: yeah

[12:19] Baker Linden: it'll tell you when you banned them, and I will design the system to (hopefully) easily add that functionality if it seems like something a lot of people want

[12:20] Conrad Aluveaux: it could also show when they logged in last

[12:20] Vincent Nacon: I still like this percentage cap growth along with number of members

[12:20] TankMaster Finesmith: will we be able to impost a ban time limit? ie, ban a person from joining for an hr?

[12:20] Qie Niangao: with LSL interface to it, many of those special-case features could be implemented externally

[12:20] Mona Eberhardt: Are there any plans to make a parcel's ban list bigger?

[12:20] Baker Linden: Tank, when the list is full, I have a couple options -- return an error saying the list is full (which will probably be in v1), or remove the oldest entry from the list (which I admit is dangerous -- I don't like the idea of manipulating your ban list)

[12:20] Jonathan Yap: It would also be nice if the viewer UI allowed you to delete more than one ban entry at a time. A use case would be to delete the 20 (or whatever) oldest ones in one go.

[12:20] Lexbot Sinister: How do you determine what functionality is requested by lot of people? Since there is no official way to send suggestions or make function requests.

[12:20] Duckie Dickins: if we sent bribes of starbucks gift cards to the LL office addressed to baker linden, would they get to you? :D

[12:20] Vincent Nacon: true

[12:21] Conrad Aluveaux: if its dangerous, have a question about it "Banlist full Do you want to remove last entry?"

[12:21] Conrad Aluveaux: :p

[12:21] Baker Linden: Conrad, that's not a bad idea -- but that probably won't get into the initial release

[12:21] Adamburp Adamczyk: I'll post you the pranksters bible for that input

[12:21] Rex Cronon: baker. what if ll didn't have to store the ban list. what if the gorup owner could store the ban list on a outside server?

[12:21] Baker Linden: yeah, that's a good idea too

[12:21] Baker Linden: I'd rather have it just say "remove an entry from your list"

[12:22] Baker Linden: also, I'm trying to figure out how to better clean our databases, so for example, once a week, any agents that are permabanned by us would be removed from the list (as they'll never be able to log in with that account again)

[12:22] TankMaster Finesmith: 'remove random entry?' :P

[12:22] Conrad Aluveaux: lol

[12:22] Lexbot Sinister: thats vaguer than Conrads suggestion of wording.

[12:22] Vincent Nacon: muhaha!

[12:22] Jonathan Yap: If you remove an entry the viewer could display what name was eliminated

[12:22] Zanibar Reyener: (???)

[12:22] Baker Linden: haha, that's a good check box for the group ban floater

[12:22] Baker Linden: "I'm feeling lucky!"

[12:22] Conrad Aluveaux: lol

[12:22] Conrad Aluveaux: "i'm feeling lucky" button would remove a random enitry from the banlist

[12:22] Conrad Aluveaux: thats chaos

[12:22] Zanibar Reyener: Certainly some audit logs for the group owner/officers would be nice...

[12:23] Mona Eberhardt: Baker, I'm wondering if the idea of master accounts (that has also been documented by Ciaran Laval) would help with keeping troublemakers and their alts out of SL (although that'd probably render a certain product utterly obsolete).

[12:23] Baker Linden: Mona, what's the idea? I haven't heard of it

[12:23] Mona Eberhardt: Here it is, Baker: http://sl.governormarley.com/?p=616

[12:23] Rex Cronon: if we had a lsl function that gave group invites on to people we wanted than the groups wouldn't need a ban list. we could use our own list

[12:24] Rex Cronon: invites only to *

[12:24] TankMaster Finesmith: im not sure how good an idea of being able to import lists of residents to the ban list is...

[12:25] Conrad Aluveaux: oh Rex, thats a nice idea, then we dont need group inviter bots

[12:25] Conrad Aluveaux: we get group invite spam when we visit an area anyway, so thats not an issue scripts can do it :P

[12:26] Baker Linden: Lex, I have toyed with the idea of time-based bans -- I'm designing the system so that could be added if necessary, but I think the group ban lists would be filled much faster if it were used for a "bad resident -- time out for you!" list -- The idea of the group ban system would be for suppressing really obnoxious griefers.

[12:27] Mona Eberhardt: And a certain group of SL feed & forum trolls that make thousands of alts as sockpuppets to bully and harass users, Baker.

[12:27] Baker Linden: Ahh, I see Mona, more of a steam / blizzard paradigm -- you log in with an account, and your avatar has a completely separate name

[12:27] Rex Cronon: baker. there r quite a few of them:)

[12:27] Lexbot Sinister: It's already used in a sense, but then policed by one of the admins. That then go offline and leave drama behind.

[12:27] TankMaster Finesmith: we'd use the time ban a bit in our support groups... then the ban list of the repeat offenders

[12:27] Baker Linden: Time-based banlists as an addition to a permaban list

[12:27] Baker Linden: hmm

[12:28] Conrad Aluveaux: if you go 'steam', and allow only one account connected from an ip that will break alot of things >.> people on same Lan wont be able to enter, and people cant dual-client on their alts

[12:28] Adamburp Adamczyk: can you include a scrip to give otu an ice cream too maybe?

[12:28] Qie Niangao: I have to say that LSL group invitation function is long past due. I'm really not sure why the ban thing is better to do first (it seems both harder and less generally useful)

[12:28] Rex Cronon: banning by ip doesn't work:(

[12:28] Lexbot Sinister: but it's hard to keep track of, lets say, a 3 day ban, where you want someone to just step back from the computer a bit and get over their immidiate angstyness

[12:28] Baker Linden: that actually might be better, actually. One list for permabans, one for time-based -- more complex, but probably better, since the time-based ones would be constantly cycling new residents, meaning the cap of 500 may not be reached as quickly

[12:29] Honza Noyes: Does Second Life support IPv6?

[12:29] TankMaster Finesmith: no

[12:29] Conrad Aluveaux: why would it need?

[12:29] Honza Noyes: Just curious.

[12:29] Conrad Aluveaux: majority still uses ipv4, and we have converters, so ipv6 can use ipv4

[12:29] Zanibar Reyener: IPv6 is inheriently more secure than IPv4

[12:29] Baker Linden: Well Conrad, I was just thinking about how it would work -- I am not on the team that would be responsible for figuring all that out :)

[12:29] Baker Linden: Honza, I'm unsure

[12:29] Honza Noyes: For example, I am moving onto college in september. Not sure what IP I will have.

[12:30] Alice Klinger: ok i have a question. since some of my llemail servers break get blackholed alot since 2 weeks, is there a limit how many llemail calls a sim can handle at once or... some other changes with this function recently?

[12:30] Honza Noyes: And not really looking forward to share my connection with uh, some dick who can get the IP banned.

[12:30] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is half over

[12:30] Levio Serenity: i would be miserable if i couldn't dual log

[12:30] Alice Klinger: sorry unrelated but um... would appreciate any hints

[12:30] Zanibar Reyener: most IPv6 installations work in dual stack mode Honza. This means they both use a IPv6 and IPv4 or tunnel through IPv4/6

[12:30] TankMaster Finesmith: Id like one list of bans, maybe a column of ban time, where permabanned was denoted in some wya, and others would jsut display the amount ot fime left?

[12:31] Vincent Nacon: I think it's safe to say this IP ban is going right over Baker's head as it may not be something he can work on

[12:31] Baker Linden: Good question Alice! But alas, I don't know :(

[12:31] Zanibar Reyener: Granted, IPv6 does remove the explicit need for subnetting

[12:31] Baker Linden: Tank, I'd probably split it between to tabbed panels. Might as well organize the data in a way that's easy to parse :)

[12:31] Levio Serenity: i havent had any issues with llEmail() servers lately

[12:32] Qie Niangao: Alice, dunno about that one, but just checking: you know about moving the llEmail server across a sim border and back again when it's too wedged for reset, right?

[12:33] Alice Klinger: yes but with 450 servers and half of them breaking with each sim restart it gets tedious...

[12:33] Qie Niangao: oh, that's not a nice ratio :(

[12:33] Alice Klinger: yes, i am about to get a nervous breakdown

[12:34] Conrad Aluveaux: o.O

[12:34] Alice Klinger: and i had maybe one or two breaks before the server code update 2 weeks ago

[12:34] Baker Linden: Haha, yeah, the IP ban is not something I'm working on -- there's another group of people for that

[12:34] Honza Noyes: Who would be the correct Linden to contact regarding that Baker?

[12:35] Baker Linden: Alice, I'll be posting these notes on the SUG wiki page, and I'll be sure to ask Simon and Kelly to read this stuff so we can get better answers for you next week.

[12:35] Conrad Aluveaux: and i suppose i should go to a scripter group with llInviteToGroup(), and llRemoveFromGroup(), also we could get a scripted way to ban people

[12:35] Mona Eberhardt: I've always thought IP bans aren't particularly effective, as they can cause "collateral damage" and are easy to bypass. One can even change their router's IP on the fly if they know how.

[12:35] Qie Niangao: Alice, I haven't seen that with my llEmail stuff (but I only have maybe 20 or so, and they're very lightly loaded, so not much info there).

[12:35] Alice Klinger: that would be great, thank you :-)

[12:35] Baker Linden: Honza, I really don't know. If you come to the Thursday Beta Server User Group, you might be able to get more info on it

[12:35] Whirly Fizzle: IP bans would be pretty useless

[12:35] Baker Linden: or next UG here, next week.

[12:36] Lexbot Sinister: Eh, i always thought ip/etc bans were useless if someone really tries to get around it.

[12:36] Baker Linden: Yeah, it's easy enough to spoof an IP

[12:36] Rex Cronon: icecold. if u can convince kelly to do it...

[12:36] Jonathan Yap: Where is the rest of the server team today?

[12:36] Lexbot Sinister: payment info is most likely the only realiable way to keep someone out permanently..

[12:36] TankMaster Finesmith: or to get a new IP off your router from your ISP...

[12:36] Baker Linden: They came to the San Francisco office today, and our VP of Technology took all the programmers out to lunch.

[12:36] Conrad Aluveaux: I dont know what convinceing has to be don there, group invites are already managed by bots, so having it scripted just eases the pain on doing what is already being done

[12:36] Mona Eberhardt: Does the master account idea sound good, Baker? There was also a JIRA for it back then.

[12:36] Vincent Nacon: damn... no wonder!

[12:36] Whirly Fizzle: A lot of peoples IPs change every 24hrs anyway

[12:36] Vincent Nacon: :P

[12:37] Vincent Nacon: oh .....you mean...

[12:37] Baker Linden: I drew the proverbial short-stick today :) By that, I mean I said "I don't know how useful this meeting will be, but I'll stay and hang out with everyone"

[12:37] Vincent Nacon: Sorry to hear that, Baker

[12:37] Honza Noyes: That is nice of you.

[12:37] Baker Linden: Lex, that's correct

[12:37] Adamburp Adamczyk: personally, I'd be hiding whoopee cushions aroudn the office Baker

[12:37] TankMaster Finesmith: lol

[12:37] Kennylex Luckless: Just start with banning all IP to free proxies.

[12:37] TankMaster Finesmith: stuff the boss's office with packaging nuts!

[12:38] Adamburp Adamczyk: a nice empty office, and a prankster .............

[12:38] Jonathan Yap: Baker, you can get a company credit card and take some local Residents out to lunch, to make up for being here today. :)

[12:38] Conrad Aluveaux: lol

[12:38] Faust Vollmar: hahaha

[12:38] Baker Linden: Mona, I'm sure it would help increase some security, but I don't know if it's on the table of 'things we're adding to SL soon' :( Though I could be totally wrong in that! :)

[12:38] Conrad Aluveaux: if theres any local residents

[12:38] Baker Linden: hahah, Adam.

[12:38] Conrad Aluveaux: for example i live on the other side of the planet :p

[12:38] Baker Linden: Tank, I'd prefer to keep my job here :P

[12:38] TankMaster Finesmith: hehe

[12:38] TankMaster Finesmith: so do we!

[12:39] Baker Linden: aww thanks!

[12:39] Vincent Nacon: alrighty, I still got a question related to the group thing but not about the ban itself though

[12:39] Baker Linden: sure, Vincent

[12:39] Baker Linden: I'll try to answer it

[12:39] Mona Eberhardt: There's another added benefit: it'd enable LL to manage inactive accounts much like Gameforge and Innogames do... And even make people who wish to remain for loooooong periods out of SL, but keep their accounts, pay a fee to LL for maintenance of their inventories.

[12:39] Vincent Nacon: is there any reason why people can't reuse the same group that was disbanded by mistake?

[12:39] Baker Linden: as in the same name?

[12:39] Vincent Nacon: as in reuse the same group name that was already used

[12:39] Vincent Nacon: yup

[12:40] Zanibar Reyener: This dragon's head is starting to hurt a lil, think I'm gonna bail out.

[12:40] Baker Linden: Hmm.. I seem to remember this being asked before. I thought that if there were no members in a group, after 24-48 hours it would be deleted. I wonder if the cron job or whatever it is that would handle that is working anymore....

[12:41] Baker Linden: or if it's not deleting everything

[12:41] Conrad Aluveaux: aw Naga

[12:41] Whirly Fizzle: The groups do still get deleted but no-one can use that name again I think

[12:41] Jonathan Yap: The group should auto-delete if there are less than 3 members

[12:41] Qie Niangao: Well, but the name is somehow "reserved" forever. I think it's always been that way.

[12:41] Vincent Nacon: I think after the group is disbanded, it stay on the database which kept from being re-created again

[12:41] Whirly Fizzle: Yeah

[12:41] Baker Linden: yeah, that's probably the case, Vincent.

[12:41] Vincent Nacon: thus not fully deleted

[12:42] Baker Linden: Whirly, is there ajira related to that?

[12:42] Faust Vollmar: I remember one being resolved as intended behavior

[12:42] TankMaster Finesmith: Another somewhat related question: did ll remove server side support for group proposals and voting?

[12:42] Whirly Fizzle: Hmmm not sure. Looking. Though it has always been this way as far as I know

[12:42] Vincent Nacon: yeah but the question is... why?

[12:42] Duckie Dickins: well I do know if you were the creator of a group you left, you can get reinstated by submitting a support ticket.

[12:42] Vincent Nacon: maybe there was a reason long ago but what about today?

[12:42] Whirly Fizzle: I can see why. It could cause problems with others reusing old group names.

[12:42] Conrad Aluveaux: well why does the group names kept reserved, and all that? after many many years eventually we'll run out of good group names because they all taken >.>

[12:42] TankMaster Finesmith: cus the programer of it coded it that way, sincent :P

[12:43] Vincent Nacon: well I've lost my group and I still need it back

[12:43] Qie Niangao: proposals and voting got killed a long time ago. not sure it ever actually worked.

[12:43] Faust Vollmar: Wouldnt surprise me if impersonation is the reason. Little silly, but it wouldn't surprise me.

[12:43] Jonathan Yap: So that is why I see lots of * and stars, etc. in group names

[12:43] Rex Cronon: u need a new programemer tank:)

[12:43] Vincent Nacon: yeah

[12:43] Mona Eberhardt: Baker, has LL ever considered charging inactive users for maintaining their inventories?

[12:43] Rex Cronon: programmer*

[12:43] Conrad Aluveaux: hey lets slow down, Baker's head will explode >.>

[12:43] Jonathan Yap: How would you charge them--they are inactive

[12:43] Vincent Nacon: it should be no different than whom got the group first than being true creator

[12:43] Baker Linden: Mona, I don't know. I'm just a programmer :)

[12:44] Duckie Dickins: They should bring you free lunch tomorrow. :)

[12:44] Vincent Nacon: muhaha!

[12:44] Jonathan Yap: Also, if you start charging them then you need to hire more staff to deal with the resulting problems

[12:44] Whirly Fizzle: That would be chos lol

[12:44] Whirly Fizzle: *chaos

[12:45] Mona Eberhardt: Jonathan: Email them and tell them that they have two options: either log back into SL (and I mean in-world, not SL feeds or forums) or lose their accounts OR choose a fee scheme for inventory maintenance.

[12:45] Faust Vollmar: There probably already is a "long term storage" system that moves really inactive accounts to a secondary db

[12:45] Kennylex Luckless: Baker, is it possible ffor linden to do something that can allow user to export own build converted to Collada?

[12:45] Faust Vollmar: And moves them back when they log in again

[12:45] Duckie Dickins: well....I would think inactive users get their inventories shuffled to the inactive cold storage asset server where items you haven't rezzed in a very long time go.

[12:45] Vincent Nacon: sounds about right

[12:45] Baker Linden: I'm unsure if there's anything I can do about fixing group names, but I can at least check it out. I'm not promising anything other than I'll ask around and see what the reason was and if there's anything we can do to change that

[12:45] Jonathan Yap: Mona: Resident X is sick, etc. and cannot get an email--I can think of many other legitimate reasons why such an email would not be seen in a timely fashion

[12:45] Baker Linden: Kenny, Export a prim build or something to collada?

[12:45] Vincent Nacon: alrighty, thanks Baker

[12:46] Adamburp Adamczyk dares baker to switch coffee to de-caff while the office is mepty

[12:46] Conrad Aluveaux: yeah eventually we'll see really dumb group names like "mmffxx244" >.> because people wont have good names to use

[12:46] Adamburp Adamczyk: empty*

[12:46] Object: Hello, Avatar!

[12:46] Mona Eberhardt: That's an extension of what Gameforge does w.r.t. inactive users.

[12:46] Jonathan Yap: We already have that issue with new account names IceCold

[12:46] Kennylex Luckless: Yes, I has a script that export to .bin, but it is no good

[12:46] Conrad Aluveaux: Yes i know about that :P

[12:46] Conrad Aluveaux: i see the silliest account names as of yet

[12:47] Baker Linden: Adam, there is no such thing as decaf here :P

[12:47] Adamburp Adamczyk: *CENSORED*

[12:47] Conrad Aluveaux: Even mine is a bit silly, but Displaynames fixed that and i could get my old name back

[12:47] Kennylex Luckless: So I think if script can do that, would it be posible for LL to make prim mesh converter?

[12:47] Faust Vollmar: Yeah the whole resident debacle was kinda shortsighted, especially with display names having no uniqueness, pushing people to have to keep highlighting the resident name due to impersonation.

[12:48] Baker Linden: There's a script that can convert prim builds to collada?

[12:48] Rex Cronon: kennylex. u would also need mesh to prim converter?

[12:48] Conrad Aluveaux: why do we need a prim-mesh converter? that usually results in horribly optimized mesh models that are actually worse in some cases than their primmed versions

[12:48] Whirly Fizzle: I can't see a JIRA on reusing disbanded group names baker

[12:48] Baker Linden: Thanks whirly -- I have a note to make one after UG is over :)

[12:48] Baker Linden: in case you couldn't find any

[12:49] Jonathan Yap: Allow the name to be used after N amount of time has passed

[12:49] Conrad Aluveaux: I thought the whole reason to mesh importing was that we can break off from primmed builds and the pain of sculpts :P

[12:49] Whirly Fizzle: Hah! As soon as I said that .... https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-2708 ( Disbanded/discontinued group names should be automatically expired for reuse )

[12:49] JIRA-helper: [#MISC-2708] Disbanded/discontinued group names should be automatically expired for reuse - Second Life Bug Tracker

[12:49] Baker Linden: Thanks Whirly :)

[12:50] TankMaster Finesmith: Another somewhat related question: did ll remove server side support for group proposals and voting?

[12:50] Faust Vollmar: Shame Kelly isn't here, else I'd be my usual UG-leech self and plug an old feature request JIRA I'd like to have, now that we're in the wind-down minutes. =p

[12:50] Whirly Fizzle: Oh theres a Linden quote on that as to why too

[12:50] TankMaster Finesmith: i know they were still readable for a w while after LL stoped allowing new ntries

[12:50] Baker Linden: Kenny, as much as it would be amazing to have a prim -> mesh converter, I'd be wary of what meshes would come out of it -- see Conrad's reasoning for that.

[12:50] Whirly Fizzle: Sever sode has been dead since about 2007

[12:50] Whirly Fizzle: *side

[12:50] TankMaster Finesmith: but you could still read them

[12:51] Conrad Aluveaux: i never really used the votes and proposals on groups, i used 3rd party poll websites always in group notices XD

[12:51] Baker Linden: Faust, plug it anyway so we can have it in the notes so we can talk about it next week!

[12:51] Conrad Aluveaux: I think thats why they were poofed away, no one needs it

[12:51] Levio Serenity: there are tools that convert prims to mesh already

[12:51] Conrad Aluveaux: Yes, but why <.<

[12:51] Faust Vollmar: Haha, ok. I'd say its even lower on the totem pole of things than the one I lodged last week though; https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1632

[12:52] Whirly Fizzle: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1146 (Closed Group Proposals NOT SHOWING in Group Voting History )

[12:52] Lexbot Sinister: i'd love a prim-to-mesh converter. Not to use the meshes as they are, but to be able to build things in mesh, fitting to scale and shape of already existing content. Although it would be only possible for your own objects, so it would be sort of limited... but still

[12:52] Whirly Fizzle: Mesh studio does that

[12:53] Duckie Dickins: Honestly though building in mesh sorta takes away from SL. You have to do it outside of SL ..log in..upload to test...log out....build some more in blender/maya/whatever....log back in..upload to test.......do you think we'll get client-side mesh building tools some day?

[12:53] Conrad Aluveaux: the problem is many people use prim to mesh converters to just cheaply drill in primmed builds into mesh models, or even "copybotting", and it just results in more horribly optimized higher land impact and rendering cost "craps" so to say

[12:53] Rex Cronon: we need plugin mesh editing tools:)

[12:53] Qie Niangao: Lex: especially to fit with already-existing *terrain*. and yeah, Mesh studio is okay for that (with a lot of work)

[12:54] Conrad Aluveaux: Duckie, why do you have to log out? i run Blender fine together with SL

[12:54] Levio Serenit whispers: you could say the same thing about sculptys but that never stopped them : D

[12:54] Conrad Aluveaux: :p

[12:54] Whirly Fizzle: ..or being off in photoshop making textures :D

[12:54] Conrad Aluveaux: a prim to sculpt converter is however useful

[12:55] Conrad Aluveaux: drill in several prims int oone

[12:55] Conrad Aluveaux: into one*

[12:55] Baker Linden: Duckie, I'd hate to say it this way, but I highly doubt that will happen -- I know that logging in and out constantly while fixing the mesh in maya is inefficient, but I think that any in-viewer tool we'd design would not be as fully features as that of blender, maya, max, etc. I think it would just take too long to implement it to a degree that it would be as fully features as any of those tools -- I think improving the content pipeline between those products and SL would be a better use of our time.

[12:55] Meeter: Timecheck : User Group is almost over

[12:55] Lexbot Sinister: drill several prims into one, on the expense of having abundant useless vertices to draw, for one prim. I thought we were moving away from that.

[12:56] Conrad Aluveaux: Oh now that we talk about mesh editing inworld, we could have power to modify or deform already existing mesh models :P

[12:56] Lexbot Sinister: err, i meant 1 LI

[12:56] Conrad Aluveaux: or even better, deform the mesh to fit your body

[12:56] Rex Cronon: once u have a mesh u can remove extra vertices

[12:56] Nalates Urriah: mesh deformer or avatar 2.0 or improved avatar1.5... something

[12:57] Baker Linden: Conrad, I'm unsure if that's on the table right now, but I think it would definitely be useful now that the materials viewer is in the wild

[12:57] Lexbot Sinister: Well, i always thought of the terrain editing tool as a type of mesh-shaping deformer, it would be nice to have that function for regular mesh too.

[12:57] Fenix Eldritch: Quickie topic for the logs...

[12:57] Levio Serenity: i dont think having LL reimplement blender inside SL is a very good use of their developer's time

[12:57] Conrad Aluveaux: Yup. and I have a friend who likes to be more... bulky on SL, and all the clothes are made for "anorexic" avatars lol none of it fits on him

[12:57] Fenix Eldritch: Last week there was talk about seated avatars adding their physics to the shape of vehicles - and how that can be undesirable at times. Conversation seemed to end on asking if llVolumeDetect could be augmented to throw land collisions.... I just wanna point out that wouldn't help, since a volumeDetect vehicle still adds the avatar to what it considers the collision shape of the whole object.

[12:57] TankMaster Finesmith: full adoption of materials is still a few months off :P

[12:58] Conrad Aluveaux: As in to Firestorm viewer?

[12:58] Baker Linden: I don't know enough (well, anything really) about the mesh system, so this is just me speculating about what might or might not be possible

[12:59] Conrad Aluveaux: Baker, you could ask people about it, or nudge people to do things towards mesh deforming at least... it is a very needed feature :P

[12:59] TankMaster Finesmith: yes, conrad

[12:59] Conrad Aluveaux: and ooh.. :p i cant wait to have materials on Firestorm

[12:59] Baker Linden: Fenix, Thank you for that note about llVolumeDetect. I'll make sure everyone else looks at it, and hopefully we can get back to you next week with better clarification

[12:59] Whirly Fizzle: Poor Tank needs a rest. he just merged in CHUI :D

[12:59] Fenix Eldritch: Sadly, I almost never am able to make these meetings, so I'll be watching the logs

[12:59] Conrad Aluveaux: oh god CHUI

[12:59] Baker Linden: Conrad, I know -- when I first got here, I wanted to start improving mesh related systems.

[12:59] Conrad Aluveaux: >.>

[12:59] Baker Linden: I like building tools

[13:00] Kennylex Luckless: Material made my 4 prim hat to be 270 PE

[13:00] TankMaster Finesmith: i still have a file left to work on in the CHUI merge

[13:00] Baker Linden: and tool chains

[13:00] Baker Linden: Fenix, we'll keep the logs updated for you so you can hopefully get some resolution on it next week

[13:00] Nalates Urriah: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group

[13:00] Conrad Aluveaux: Hey tank, how will CHUI look on Firestorm, we could talk about that later after this meeting if you not busy

[13:00] Jonathan Yap: Thank you Baker

[13:00] TankMaster Finesmith: i havent a clue

[13:00] TankMaster Finesmith: it doesnt even compile yet

[13:00] Conrad Aluveaux: Aw.

[13:00] Nalates Urriah: Thx Baker

[13:00] Fenix Eldritch: But in following up with that, maybe this could be an opportunity for a more well rounded feature - the ability to alter the collision sphere of agents in general. Sortal like how the new AO works.

[13:01] Fenix Eldritch: Thanks Baker!

[13:01] Conrad Aluveaux: But whats the idea? is it gonna be like the Viewer 3.0?

[13:01] Mona Eberhardt: thank you, Baker.

[13:01] Baker Linden: ok, I'm going to call the meeting now. I really appreciate all of your patience with me not knowing much about most of your questions.

[13:01] Whirly Fizzle: Thanks baker :)

[13:01] TankMaster Finesmith: itll be a hybrid of what we have now and CHUI

[13:01] Conrad Aluveaux: Oh good :P

[13:01] Rex Cronon: tc baker

[13:01] Conrad Aluveaux: I did not like the CHUI on Viewer 3.0 to be honest >.>

[13:01] TankMaster Finesmith: thc for your timme and info, baker ?

[13:01] Baker Linden: I'll probably see some of you on Thursday, others next week. Feel free to stay and chat! I gotta go grab some lunch now :) Take care everyone!

[13:01] Faust Vollmar: Take care Baker, thanks for putting up with us

[13:01] Lexbot Sinister: We appriciate your patience with us, Baker

[13:01] Whirly Fizzle: ...and baker, thank you for working on the group bans. This is something we really need and appreciate you doing this so much

[13:01] Fenix Eldritch: Have a good one!

[13:02] Conrad Aluveaux: See you Baker

[13:02] Rex Cronon: u were the sacrificial lamb today. kind of :)

[13:02] Duckie Dickins: Thanks baker. I hope they take you out to lunch tomorrow for drawing the short stick today. :)

[13:02] Mona Eberhardt: Neithher did I, Conrad. It was nigh on impossible to see notifications for IMs and all.

[13:02] Conrad Aluveaux: Yup

[13:02] Conrad Aluveaux: and ever since CHUI is out, the "oops wrong box" accidents increased lol

[13:02] Conrad Aluveaux: ...sometimes resulting in hilarious and awkward scenes

[13:02] Mona Eberhardt: It's almost as if CHUI was designed by the V2's designers.

[13:02] Conrad Aluveaux: lol

[13:03] Faust Vollmar: Spose I should go home and poke at some code incase one of my two requests go through successfully, haha

[13:03] TankMaster Finesmith: its almost like CHUI was origonally a FS UI port that got mangld later on :P

[13:03] TankMaster Finesmith: they coppid a fair amount of our UI design, then modified it

[13:03] Vincent Nacon: that sounds kinda spot on

[13:03] Whirly Fizzle: Ice, I wouldnt worry. I don't think the interface will be much different. One idea that was thrown around was to have a pure CHUI style UI for the V3 login mode though, for those that prefer it.

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