Doc Team/2007-12-07

Arawn Spitteler: When I first started in February, I found all the knowledge base on the inaccessible forum, is that where you've been touching up?
Arawn Spitteler: Hi, Indya
Jeremy Linden: Hm.. We haven't been doing much on the forums. We've been doing a lot more with the actual Knowledge Base (http://secondlife.com/support)
Buddy Halcali: Hey Everyone :)
Jon Linden: hello!
Arawn Spitteler: Yes, so Knowledge Base no longer refers all inquiries to the Forums
Indya Etchegaray: hi arwan
Jeremy Linden: I occasionally post wiki articles as well, when I feel that an important piece of information doesn't fit into the KB.
Jeremy Linden: Hm. I think you may be confusing "Knowledge Base" with "Help"
Arawn Spitteler: Wiki seperate from the KB?
Jon Linden: most definitely
Jeremy Linden: The Knowledge Base is only one component of our Help resources :-)
Arawn Spitteler: All I recall, is F1->FU
Jeremy Linden: http://wiki.secondlife.com, for the wiki
Buddy Halcali: You both are editors?
Jeremy Linden: For all intents and purposes, yes.
Jon Linden: i was going to say "pretty much"
Thomas Shikami: Hello
Jeremy Linden: Hello Thomas!
Buddy Halcali: Thats great :) I've applied for the engineering tech writer vacancy
Jeremy Linden: And Buddy and Indya as well.
Windowlic Klaar: oops
Thomas Shikami: ;p
Windowlic Klaar: just logged in
Windowlic Klaar: >_<
Jon Linden: does anyone have questions or concerns about the knowledge base's organization or content?
Thomas Shikami: I'm here because of Age Verification
Indya Etchegaray: i'm interested in that too
Jon Linden: as far as that goes, I can pretty much point you to the FAQ and that's about it, man
Thomas Shikami: well about knowledge base, it should be more easy to access
Jon Linden: in that it wasn't something i was directly involved in
Jon Linden: you're right about that for sure -- we're working on getting it out from behind the login
Jeremy Linden: We're working on that- We've got a solution ready, we just need the web developers to have more hours in the day :-)
MystiTool HUD 1.0.21: Couldn't find script MystiTool Anti Idle 1.0.1
MystiTool HUD 1.0.21: Couldn't find script MystiTool Bug Scanner 1.0
Thomas Shikami: it was before
Jon Linden: i'm also asking about getting it put into the little dropdown list in the upper right of secondlife.com
Jon Linden: the KB was accessible without a login before, but it had some problems
Object does not appear to be for sale.
Jon Linden: it was hard to maintain, and also really hard to search
Arawn Spitteler: Isn't that where Search was moved?
Thomas Shikami: well, search can be still behind the login
Thomas Shikami: just the old URLs should work again to access the articles without login
Jon Linden: i think arawn's asking about the little dropdown -- i mean the "Resident Links" dropdown above the search box
Jon Linden: the old KB was stored in a system that doesn't really map to the current one
Jeremy Linden: When we moved to our new Support solution, Parature, we had to import all our old Knowledge Base articles in to the new system. Unfortunately, the old links are no longer valid.
Jon Linden: funfact: it was actually literally not possible to search for a 3-letter term in the old KB
Jeremy Linden: (like "lag") :-)
Jon Linden: a topic of some concern for most
Arawn Spitteler: Fun must also have been lost
Thomas Shikami: it isn't neccessary to get search working for knowledge base, because parature already allows it
Thomas Shikami: it's just, the removal of the old links
Jon Linden: parature's search is pretty decent, but we think it'd be convenient for KB topics to be included as part of Search results
Jeremy Linden: It's not that we removed the old links, Thomas... Those links would still work, if our old Knowledge Base system was still operational. We've moved to a completely different back end, now, though.
Arawn Spitteler: What's Parature?
Jeremy Linden: Parature is our Support solution provider. They provide our ticket tracking, knowledge base, live concierge chat, etc...
Thomas Shikami: now as the new search is in place, it could index knowledge base articles, these could be accessible on the old URLs again. I don't see real problems with it. Especially if there's an API to access parature. if not, it should be able to have a small database and hand edit copy/paste the knowledge base articles over to the secondlife.com website
Arawn Spitteler: So, they do the coding for help-desk
Jon Linden: arawn: essentially
Jon Linden: thomas: not quite
Thomas Shikami: well sorry, I'm a programmer, and from my perspective, it looks trivial
Arawn Spitteler: And you've never told your wife, you'd be home six hours earlier?
Jeremy Linden: Thomas, one of the issues we face is that we don't have direct access to the back end of the system- in essence, we don't have the ability to directly access the HTML pages, even internally.
Arawn Spitteler: There is a power behind the throne?
Thomas Shikami: though you write the knowledge base articles. A procedure could be, to whenever the knowledge base source was edited, to transfer a copy by hand into the secondlife.com secondary copy
Jeremy Linden: Heh. We're working closely with Parature, and they've already made some big advances since we switched to their system.
Thomas Shikami: it can be a work protocol
Jeremy Linden: Hm. It seems to me that that would be an unnecessary duplication of effort just to get the old links to work again. Is there a specific application you use that relies on the old links?
Thomas Shikami: not myself, it doesn't seem to duplicate work, as it would be selecting all text, ctrl + c, then opening the other KB app, ctrl + v and send
Jeremy Linden: Right, but in essence, we'd be maintaining two knowledge bases, manually.
Jon Linden: which again is kind of a hassle just to make the old links work
Thomas Shikami: okay, was just a suggestion anyway
Jeremy Linden: Thanks! We do appreciate suggestions and input :-)
Jon Linden: i'm certain that if there was enough of a public outcry about the Lore links not working, we'd try to pull LL and Parature webdev time to get an API cobbled together
Jon Linden: (Lore being the old KB system)
Jon Linden: but people seem to have gotten used to Parature
Thomas Shikami: though, you haven't seen some of the magic I sometimes do with systems, that doesn't seem to have API at all
Sabina Stenvaag: regarding documentation stuff--what is the deal with the forums at http://forums.secondlife.com? is the KB or wiki a better/more current resource? do you plan to keep the forums or are you hoping ot move away form them?
Jon Linden: that's an excellent question
Jon Linden: the forums aren't actually our area -- i think they might be the Community team? -- but I've always thought of the forums as a place for Residents to ask for help or opinions from other Residents
Thomas Shikami: I have an in world object, that can say the L$ balance of an account
Jeremy Linden: Oh, here I am forgetting about the Public Issue Tracker... Thomas, you could submit your idea as a feature request. If it gets a lot of votes, our developers will act on it :-)
Sabina Stenvaag: ok--so forums are more resident run not- ll official info then--got it thansk!
Jon Linden: we used to have more official Linden-type info appear on the forums, but not so much lately
Jeremy Linden: Most of the Linden functions that were on the Forums have been transferred to the Blog and the KB, yes.
Jon Linden: what he said
Sabina Stenvaag: thanks
Arawn Spitteler was noting earlier
Jeremy Linden: Does anyone have any concerns about how the KB is organized, or the kind of information it contains?
Jon Linden: is there anything missing that you find you're not seeing?
Thomas Shikami: I hit information that was old and outdated
Jon Linden: we're working on getting it out from behind the login
Jon Linden: thomas: what was it?
Thomas Shikami: something about calling cards
Jon Linden: ah so
Arawn Spitteler: Philosophically, I wonder if a whole new documentation paradigm could be developed, around OO Trad
Thomas Shikami: it was about residents stalking and the protection
Jon Linden: what's OO Trad?
Jeremy Linden: Arawn, is that short for Object-oriented something? :-)
Arawn Spitteler: Object Orientation.
Thomas Shikami: I think calling cards is something very old, that was replaced by friends list at some point
Jeremy Linden: calling cards still exist, to be sure
You have offered a calling card to Thomas Shikami
Thomas Shikami: yes, but they don't work as online dstatus notification any more
Your calling card was accepted.
Arawn Spitteler: I found some mention of Object Orientation in a Hindu Text, so the subject might not be so new.
Jeremy Linden: Hm. They can, if you're also friends with that person.
Sabina Stenvaag: i actually use calling cards instead of 'fending nwebies'
Arawn Spitteler would like to see a return of Calling Cards
Sabina Stenvaag: friending*
Jon Linden: calling cards never went away, arawn
Thomas Shikami: I know, but deleting calling cards doesn't seem to have any effects any more
Sabina Stenvaag: oh--never tired to delete one
Jeremy Linden: Hm. This sounds like something to look into with the technical experts here at Linden.
Thomas Shikami: I guess it's an old time relic, where deleting a calling card also deleted yours from their inventory
Arawn Spitteler: I think more should be done with them.
Sabina Stenvaag: jsut deleted 2 of them fine using Second Life 1.18.6 (0) Dec 4 2007 18:06:16
Jeremy Linden: Sabina, it's not impossible to delete them, but deleting them once had some farther-reaching effects for people who also had your card.
Sabina Stenvaag: ah--i see ok
Arawn Spitteler would like to move them to front pie
Thomas Shikami: and as with inventory growth, that effect had to become ineffective
Time Minder: You have been online for 1 hours.
Thomas Shikami: though it'd be nice if there was a possibility to delete your own calling cards from other peoples inventory
Sabina Stenvaag: that WOULD be nice!
Jeremy Linden: True enough.
Thomas Shikami: it could be a cached queue list, that is checked each login
Jon Linden: i'm going to find out who here in the lab knows things about calling cards and interrogate them
Jon Linden: i've put a post-it by my keyboard
Jeremy Linden: If I remember correctly, a fun thing you can do with calling cards is to drop them into private group chats, to invite someone in.
Arawn Spitteler: You can?
Jeremy Linden: Er. "Friends Conferences"
Thomas Shikami: and also once you opted in, no chance to opt-out
Arawn Spitteler: I've been wishing for that.
Jeremy Linden: Arawn, don't quote me on that :-)
Thomas Shikami: that person can always open the private IM session and spam you with invites for a party
Jeremy Linden: Changing gears a little-
Jeremy Linden: What's everyone's opinion on the "difficulty level" of the knowledge base? Do you find most of the information laughably simple, or do you wish it was easier to understand?
Jeremy Linden: Would you like to see more in-depth technical articles, or some more entry-level informaion?
Jeremy Linden: information^
Thomas Shikami: it is simple, but still need the use of brain and the will to read long text
Jon Linden: so say we all
Thomas Shikami: and I know of many, who don't read manuals
Sabina Stenvaag: humm---is there a way to make it both?
Thomas Shikami: and so don't read KB articles at all, they rather go to HIP and just ask
Indya Etchegaray: more in depth...at times i would like to have access to more technical info
Jon Linden: getting people to read documentation is an everpresent challenge
Arawn Spitteler recalls the old days: "When all else fails..."
Jon Linden: how technical, indya?
Thomas Shikami: the more technical info finds its way to the wiki
Jeremy Linden: Some of our *extremely* technical info goes into the wiki, like the technical explanation of Sculpties.
Indya Etchegaray: down to the processing level...what defaults are...how parameters are processed
Arawn Spitteler: In principal, any search of the knowledge base should lead to sufficient knowledge to use all Open Source materials, without forcing such attention the way I would.
Thomas Shikami: yes, the second life command line paramters would be a nice knowledge base article
Sabina Stenvaag: that's another concern i've got--so you're sorta saying hte most technical stuff is in hte wiki and the KB's audience is sorta the not so geeky ppl?
Jon Linden: agreed
Jeremy Linden: That sounds a little bit beyond the scope of the Knowledge Base, though we could make use of that information to, for instance, suggset good LSL scripting practices.
Jon Linden: depending on how the KB's organized, i could see there being a folder for extremely technical information that'd be there if people needed it
Jeremy Linden: The KB's audience is intended for people who are looking for information on how to use Second Life, rather than understand the technology that makes it run.
Thomas Shikami: I wonder if you've read my suggestion number 4051-4301232
Thomas Shikami: Can't rez prims, Server full
Jon Linden: though there is no reason why they couldn't coexist in harmony
Jeremy Linden thinks for a moment.
Jeremy Linden: Oh, command line parameters! I was looking for that just today- one moment.
Jon Linden: thomas, i hadn't gotten around to reading that suggestion, but it seems like something worth following up on
Thomas Shikami: it's some information I found out as estate manager, where land owners were in desperate search of the cause, why the server is full, but prims seem to be available
Arawn Spitteler remembers an ancient school house lecture, on some kind of writing format... Outlining
Jon Linden: reading it now
Indya Etchegaray: not so much understand the technology, but as Jeremy said...it would foster more efficient scripts
WidgetHUD v1.1: Indya Etchegaray has pinged you.
Thomas Shikami: just needs a good writer to write in own wordings. I'm just a bad writer
Jon Linden: there's something of a dearth of info in the KB about LSL and scripting in general, probably because the LSLwiki is so good
Jon Linden: or at least more complete
Jon Linden: i'm not technical enough to know if the LSLwiki is actually "good"
Jon Linden: i sort of assume it is
Jeremy Linden: Ours is... more technically complete, but to be honest, I tend to use lslwiki.net :-)
Jeremy Linden: speaking of which: http://lslwiki.net/lslwiki/wakka.php?wakka=NewView
Thomas Shikami: I'm using lslwiki.net during scripting, too
Jon Linden: i think that's the one i was thinking of
Jeremy Linden: I could swear we had that list in the KB at one point.
Thomas Shikami: ohh, nice list
Thomas Shikami: for the KB article, it doesn't need to be the whole list, just an explanation of the most usable options
Jeremy Linden: Oh, here we go- it's on our wiki: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Client_parameters
Jon Linden: the "other resources" article points to LSLwiki.com, which in turn redirects to the .net address
Arawn Spitteler: How would I look up information on the Ugly Red Column?
Arawn Spitteler: I doubt it would be listed so.
Jon Linden: you mean the beacon?
Jon Linden: the one that appears when you look stuff up on a map?
Arawn Spitteler: Yes, the one requiring gyrations of varying degree.
Thomas Shikami: I for example run secondlife with -noprobe and -noquicktime most of the time
Sabina Stenvaag: theres the rub--most ppl might call it a red colum right?
Arawn Spitteler: Ugly Red Column works for me.
Jeremy Linden: I think we need a strong AI artificial brain to do our natural language searches.
OsimO Oh: jeremy can you help me with a serious problem preferably in im's
WidgetHUD v1.1: OsimO Oh has pinged you.
Arawn Spitteler: Let's have me look up, for purposes of demonstration, what keystroke would zap that column
Jeremy Linden: OsimO, possibly, though I can't do much directly.
Thomas Shikami: looks liek https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Client_parameters was copied from the lslwiki
OsimO Oh: ok ill keep it short and sweet
Jeremy Linden: Or vice versa, Thomas
OsimO Oh: maybe you can tell me which linden to speak with cause filing reports and everythign else doesn't do anything it seems
Thomas Shikami: checking dates should give how it was done
Jeremy Linden: OsimO, you can attend the GTeam's office hours- I believe they hold them daily!
OsimO Oh: i work ehre for a RL company called interzone based in Milan italy my main account who builds for them was banned today
Jeremy Linden: (GTeam stands for Governance Team. They deal with abuse reports and such issues)
OsimO Oh: which sim?
Jeremy Linden: Hmm... I'm not sure. One moment, I'll try to look it up.
Windowlic Klaar: kremer
OsimO Oh: ty
Thomas Shikami: okay, information traveled from lslwiki.net to wiki.secondlife.com
Jeremy Linden: Thomas, that's possible, but I would bet that the information originated on wiki.secondlife.com, or our earlier "tiki wiki".
Thomas Shikami: yes, the problem I'd see there is the pollution that ll wanted to prevent in the beginning. The one who posted that article could possibly not have the right to distribute that information and fully agree to the contribution agreement
Jeremy Linden: That is one of the pitfalls of wiki ownership. At the same time, it allows knowledgeable Residents (and there are a lot of you!) to share what they know in a somewhat official capacity.
Thomas Shikami: one question I had about age verification, are there problems with international characters?
Jon Linden: i'm not sure what's causing the age verification problems
Jeremy Linden: That's a little outside the scope of these Office Hours... I'd answer if I knew it, but my focus is on documentation :-)
Jon Linden: we're in the process of figuring that out
Jon Linden: well i mean, not jeremy and i specifically, but others here at Linden Lab
WidgetHUD v1.1: Jon Linden has pinged you.
Thomas Shikami: a documentation about what information to enter how, would be nice
Jeremy Linden: Jon, is that in your Age Verification article?
Thomas Shikami: on some documents it's hard to determine what the ID Number is
Jon Linden: the age verification form explicitly asks for information itself, though
Thomas Shikami: for example on the drivers license:
Thomas Shikami: Führerschein Nr.: XY
Thomas Shikami: 012345/95
Thomas Shikami: that's how it is in my drivers license, XY is a two letter code, being the region it was issued in and that number with /
Arawn Spitteler recalls Age Verification as kicked back to Alpha Testing
Jon Linden: we're in the process of gathering data on these int'l age verification failures, this i do know
Jon Linden: whatever the problem is, it didn't appear in initial testing
Jon Linden: that's basically all the information i personally have
Jon Linden: it may not even be accurate
Thomas Shikami: well, my name contains international characters and they come back oddly, when the form is returned
Sabina Stenvaag: thanks for helping clarify wiki vs kb vs forums! i gotta scram
Jon Linden: of course
Jon Linden: actually, it looks like our time's up anyway
Jeremy Linden: Glad to be of assistance!
Thomas Shikami: one thing about KB article 4568
Arawn Spitteler is glad to have made it, for once. Was teaching class, in this time slot
Jon Linden: thanks for showing up, everyone; this was good
Jon Linden: go ahead thomas, but it'll have to be quick
Jon Linden: i need to catch a plane
Thomas Shikami: there's a link to https://www.secondlife.com/account/verification.php inside. should be without www or just http://secondlife...
Jon Linden: why?
Thomas Shikami: it's throwing certificate issues, when it's with www.
Jon Linden: the link functions
Jon Linden: ah so
Jon Linden: seems like an easy-enough change to make
Thomas Shikami: https://secondlife.com/... should work
Jon Linden: thanks!
Thomas Shikami: you're welcome
Thomas Shikami: I hope there's a blog entry, whenever age verification was modified to support international
Jon Linden: i'm sure there will be
Thomas Shikami: okay, thanks
Jon Linden: everybody enjoy your weekends!
Indya Etchegaray: thanks Jon...you too
Indya Etchegaray: thanks jeremy
WidgetHUD v1.1: Indya Etchegaray has pinged you.
Jeremy Linden: You're very welcome!
Jeremy Linden: I'm glad we had a good turnout here today.
Arawn Spitteler: I wonder what happened to Deborah?
Arawn Spitteler: Now, how do I search the Knowledge Bases for Ugly Red Columns?
Jeremy Linden: Heh. AI, I believe. What are you looking for, exactly?
Jeremy Linden: I'm afraid "ugly red columns" isn't a very technical or officially accepted turn.
Jeremy Linden: er, term
Indya Etchegaray: he ment URC
Arawn Spitteler: Well, the Map Beacon, I find no reference for, under View.
Arawn Spitteler: Ugly Red Column is adequate, if I'm asking one of the AIs as Help Island
Thomas Shikami: is it about the red beacon?
Thomas Shikami: well, use Client / Rendering / Cheesy Beacon
Thomas Shikami: then it's cheesy, not ugly
Arawn Spitteler: That, I'd simply ask at Help Island, where they'd ask Mentor Liassons, and someone would say, "I've always despised that Ugly red Column."
Arawn Spitteler: What's Cheesy Bacon?
Thomas Shikami: try it and then use Map
Indya Etchegaray: a heart attack?
Arawn Spitteler: But this is Documentation Office, how would I look up, Cheesy Bacon.
Thomas Shikami: Hmm, Cheesy Bacon
Thomas Shikami: sound yummy
Jeremy Linden: Do a search for Cheesy Beacon? I'm pretty sure there's at least one article about it.
Arawn Spitteler: There should be a right click, to find out what Cheesy Bacon. Off we go.
Thomas Shikami: mmm, Bacon, yumy
Arawn Spitteler: Going to 2ndL Support Website.
Thomas Shikami: it's a beacon, not bacon
Thomas Shikami: bacon is something to eat
Jeremy Linden: I know, I think he's making a pun.
Thomas Shikami: beacon is a virtual indicator to mark a target
Arawn Spitteler: No Results Were Found.
Arawn Spitteler: It always looks to me, like Bacon
Jeremy Linden: Hm. I see. I'll make a note to write an article about that!
Arawn Spitteler: Searched For: Cheesy Beacon No Results Were Found.
Arawn Spitteler: How do we spell Cheesy?
Thomas Shikami: Cheesy is Cheesy
Indya Etchegaray: might want a psydoname for that one
Jeremy Linden: Arawn, I think I may have been mistaken about there already being an article in there. Is there some specific information you want?
Arawn Spitteler: Every entry for the drop downs is abbreviated, and should have an explanatory hover.
Arawn Spitteler: Just the Keystroke, to remove, without opening the map.
Jeremy Linden: We're working on including a lot more help text in the viewer- keep an eye out for it as we keep making improvements!
Arawn Spitteler: But, opening the Client->Rendering->Cheesy Beacon is not rumored to be yet a third long way abouts.
Arawn Spitteler: now rumored.
Arawn Spitteler: How does it come to be caled, The Cheesy Beacon?
Arawn Spitteler also wonders why it's so buried.
Jeremy Linden: Heh. I wish I knew! That option predates me as a Linden.
Arawn Spitteler: Yes, my thoughts on Object Oriented Documentation... No Feature is implemented, until the user can read the instructions.
Jeremy Linden: An interesting approach!
Arawn Spitteler: My brother used to work with the ReadMe Files, at Microsoft.
hours!
Arawn Spitteler: Seed is planted, enjoy your weekend
Jeremy Linden: Enjoy your weekend as well :-)