User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2007 11 08

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[8:02]	Andrew Linden:	Hi Destiny
[8:02]	Destiny Knoller:	hi wat u doin here
[8:02]	Destiny Knoller:	footballer lololol
[8:02]	Andrew Linden:	I have office hours here every Thursday
[8:02]	Destiny Knoller:	rrr ok
[8:02]	Destiny Knoller:	so wat do u do then
[8:03]	Andrew Linden:	However, none of the regulars are here yet.
[8:03]	Andrew Linden:	I just answer questions, and make announcements about the Havok4 project.
[8:03]	Andrew Linden:	Basically, make myself avaiable
[8:03]	Andrew Linden:	Do you have any questions?
[8:03]	Destiny Knoller:	no not really
[8:04]	Destiny Knoller:	just been nosiy
[8:04]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, no problem.
[8:04]	Toonja Imtiaz:	here we go again another meetin lol
[8:04]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, another meeting.
[8:04]	Sorraya Pera:	lol
[8:04]	Andrew Linden:	However, I'm going to change the hours
[8:04]	clapton Nakajima:	hello hipatia
[8:04]	Sorraya Pera:	hi
[8:04]	Hypatia Callisto:	hi hi
[8:04]	Toonja Imtiaz:	okey
[8:04]	Andrew Linden:	so this will be the last time I'm here at this hour on Thursday
[8:05]	Toonja Imtiaz:	okey hehe
[8:05]	Hypatia Callisto:	when are they changing to
[8:05]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Sorry I'm late
[8:05]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Proky showed up
[8:05]	Andrew Linden:	Hi Ryozu
[8:05]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Had to go start a fight with him
[8:05]	Destiny Knoller:	wat do u all do on sl then
[8:06]	Toonja Imtiaz:	muck around
[8:06]	Andrew Linden:	I'm a developer for Linden Lab
[8:06]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I'm a content creator, I make a living from Second Life
[8:06]	Andrew Linden:	and I work on the SL simulator mostly
[8:06]	Toonja Imtiaz:	so you get money from creating second life in rl
[8:07]	Andrew Linden:	That question seemed ambiguous, but I think it was directed at you Ryozu.
[8:07]	clapton Nakajima:	do you mind if I sit here andrew?
[8:07]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Well, Andrew makes money from creating Second Life, I make money from creating things within Second Life, like this table
[8:07]	Andrew Linden:	Please, clapton.
[8:08]	Toonja Imtiaz:	skeen okey andrew thank you for ya time
[8:08]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Heh
[8:08]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Damn spheres
[8:08]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Silly Force Prophecies
[8:08]	WarKirby Magojiro:	Prokofy is attacking Zero's office hour
[8:08]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, I actually have some announcements to make this time around
[8:09]	WarKirby Magojiro:	let's hope she doesn't visit here
[8:09]	Andrew Linden:	so I'll get started
[8:09]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Let it, I'll give Prok an earful
[8:09]	Andrew Linden:	some of them I'll try to re-iterate at the end, for any late-comers
[8:09]	Andrew Linden:	(1) I'm going to change the schedule of my office hours.
[8:10]	Andrew Linden:	Tuesday evening and Thursday morning are too close to each other... only 1.5 days apart
[8:10]	Ryozu Yamamoto grins.
[8:10]	Andrew Linden:	so I'm going to try to spread them out...
[8:10]	WarKirby Magojiro:	I see
[8:10]	Andrew Linden:	while also making one of the hours more Euro friendly
[8:10]	Andrew Linden:	so, the new hours will be:
[8:10]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	It will also appease those who don't like that it crosses over Zero's hours
[8:10]	WarKirby Magojiro:	yay
[8:10]	Andrew Linden:	Tues 11-12 and Thurs 5-6
[8:11]	Ryozu Yamamoto nods.
[8:11]	Andrew Linden:	Oh, I hadn't realized I was conflicting with Zero's hours.
[8:11]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Sidewinder late today?
[8:11]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Whoops =)
[8:11]	WarKirby Magojiro:	My sound is gone. Need to relog, and file a jira on this bug
[8:11]	WarKirby Magojiro:	brb
[8:11]	Andrew Linden:	The meetings will still be here ... dunno if they conflict with any other activities here yet.
[8:12]	Andrew Linden:	But I'm looking for a new location... some Governor Land that I can hijack for my office hours
[8:12]	Hypatia Callisto:	so Tuesday is the early one now
[8:12]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Speaking of land, Bug Island seems restricted on the Beta grid
[8:12]	Andrew Linden:	so if anyone finds a good candidate location, please let me know.
[8:12]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I've lost my favorite haunt ;_;
[8:12]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, Dan Linden sometimes restricts Bug Island for his personal testing
[8:12]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Ah
[8:13]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Understandable, the precise reason I liked it was that I could, usually, avoid conflicting testing
[8:13]	Andrew Linden:	when he does... you know that his region has been updated with a candidate update for the Havok4 preview
[8:13]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Awesome
[8:13]	Andrew Linden:	Which leads me to announcement (2)...
[8:13]	Andrew Linden:	The update I was planning for the preview today has to be delayed...
[8:13]	Andrew Linden:	Dan tested it and declared it unworthy
[8:14]	Andrew Linden:	We had tried to fix a heightfield collision annoyance with a new heightfield implementation
[8:14]	Andrew Linden:	however that introduced a whole bunch of new bugs
[8:14]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Sorry to interrupt: heightfield?
[8:14]	Andrew Linden:	and some of the other bugs were thought were fixed were not
[8:14]	Andrew Linden:	so we'll have to try again
[8:14]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah... uh heightfield == terrain
[8:14]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Ah, right
[8:15]	Andrew Linden:	but "heightfield" is the term used in the Havok4 codebase, and hence our own
[8:15]	Andrew Linden:	and it is a common term used in the game programming community
[8:15]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Ah, I wasnt' aware, as I've no formal experience there
[8:16]	Andrew Linden:	so... it would be nice to get an update in tomorrow... but don't know if we'll make it in time
[8:16]	Andrew Linden:	we need to submit something to Dan 24 hours before we plan on updating
[8:16]	Ryozu Yamamoto nods.
[8:16]	Andrew Linden:	moving on... to item (3)
[8:17]	Andrew Linden:	(3) Philip has made "getting Havok4 out before the end of 2007 Q4" a personal goal
[8:17]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Oof
[8:17]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	That is news indeed
[8:17]	Andrew Linden:	so he's suggesting that we try to make some early deploys to SL proper, even if it isn't quite complete
[8:17]	PulseBurst Flow:	hmm..
[8:17]	Andrew Linden:	I've mentioned this idea before, but the steam pressure is building in LL over this plan
[8:18]	Andrew Linden:	So, the way it would work in theory is this...
[8:18]	Andrew Linden:	We'll search for some estate owners who have high crash rates, don't use vehicles much, and who are willing to try the Havok4 version, with all of its known warts, on a trial basis.
[8:19]	Andrew Linden:	The initial deploy would be just a few regions... 5 or less is my guess, for the first week or so.
[8:19]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Before we get too far, I want to talk about WarKirby's latest Jira entries
[8:19]	Andrew Linden:	Then we would push it out further if it helps reduce crash rates... on a voluntary basis.
[8:19]	Andrew Linden:	Ok... WarKirby's latest jira?
[8:20]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	4 Jira entries on physics weapons
[8:20]	Andrew Linden:	The four crash bugs?
[8:20]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	SVC-917, 918, 919, and 920
[8:20]	PulseBurst Flow:	but you mean that by end of 2007 it will be widely deployed?
[8:20]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	We were just on the Beta doing some testing
[8:20]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	The crash seems related only to avatar physics
[8:21]	Andrew Linden:	PulseBurst, Philip wants to try to get a few regions on SL proper running on Havok4 before 2008
[8:21]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	If I sit on something, it fails to crash the sim.
[8:21]	Philip Linden:	Hi!
[8:21]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Speak of the devil, Hey Phil!
[8:21]	Andrew Linden:	Avatar physics huh? That might be a new crash mode.
[8:21]	Hypatia Callisto:	you were conjured :)
[8:21]	Philip Linden:	Hi there you guys, hi Andrew.
[8:21]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Andrew: I think it's in the RCCS again
[8:21]	Andrew Linden:	Philip, have a seat.
[8:21]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	6 sepereate interpentrating physical objects, rezed inside the avatar
[8:22]	Andrew Linden:	Philip, I was just talking about your proposal to get Havok4 on SL proper before the end of 2008
[8:22]	PulseBurst Flow:	oh..ok..a few regions by end of year.. that if general population finds it unworthy, there will be ill will.
[8:22]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I figure maybe the RCCS is trying to turn the avatar into a box
[8:22]	Philip Linden:	OK
[8:22]	Andrew Linden:	Ryozu, no the RCCS doesn't apply to the avatar
[8:23]	Philip Linden:	Yes I feel strongly that we need to start letting people deploy havok sims
[8:23]	Andrew Linden:	but I can verify if it is RCCS related
[8:23]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	It was just a quick theory =)
[8:23]	Andrew Linden:	I'll try to test it soon
[8:23]	Andrew Linden:	however I assigned that to another developer
[8:23]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	There's WarKirby rezzing in now
[8:23]	Andrew Linden:	so I'll ask him to do it first
[8:23]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Just thought I'd bring up the result of our testing
[8:23]	WarKirby Watanabe:	Terrible time to be having technical problems
[8:23]	WarKirby Watanabe:	My framerate has mysteriously dropped to <2
[8:23]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Weird
[8:23]	Andrew Linden:	I've already outlined how I thought it would be done Philip, but perhaps you would like to outline it for us.
[8:24]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	You're also ruthed it seems.
[8:24]	WarKirby Watanabe:	going to restart my pc. Keep a chatlog for me
[8:24]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I will
[8:24]	Philip Linden:	I'm sure your outline was great! Sorry I was late.
[8:24]	Philip Linden:	Anyone else from the team here? Sidewinder?
[8:24]	Andrew Linden:	What I said was we woudl try to find some estate owners willing to trial Havok4 to see if it would reduce their crash rate.
[8:24]	Philip Linden:	Right.
[8:25]	Andrew Linden:	I suggested that we would start the deploy small (5 regions or so) for the first week or so to see how things went.
[8:25]	Andrew Linden:	Sidewinder tries to attend these meetings, but doesn't always make it.
[8:25]	Philip Linden:	Who are the other devs, andrew?
[8:26]	Andrew Linden:	Also, these meetings tend to wander from Havok4, but that is ok. All SL topics are fair game.
[8:26]	Andrew Linden:	The other devs on the Havok4 project are Kelly and Simon.
[8:26]	Philip Linden:	Cool.
[8:26]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Oh yeah, meant to ask, think they'll ever show up for these?
[8:27]	Andrew Linden:	Philip, do you have any elaborations on the Havok4 early deploy scenario?
[8:27]	Andrew Linden:	No Ryozu, I'm assuming they'll hold their own office hours.
[8:27]	Philip Linden:	Well I'd just like to see people using it on main grid ASAP so that we can see whether it can reduce crashes.
[8:27]	Andrew Linden:	Kelly is usually avaialable on the efnet #secondlife channel
[8:27]	Philip Linden:	I guess the questions is whether there would be any reason not to?
[8:28]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Philip: The only reasons I can see are possible content destruction
[8:28]	Andrew Linden:	Philip, I think Dan would have the strongest reasons (gut instincts) against doing that
[8:28]	Philip Linden:	Right. Have you been testing havok4 beta Ryozu?
[8:28]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Yeah, I've been at it from Day 1 ;)
[8:28]	Andrew Linden:	so if you convince him, or bypass QA, then I think you've got a green light.
[8:29]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	It's come quite a ways since the first run through on the Beta grid, but I feel it as a bit more to go
[8:29]	Andrew Linden:	Ryozu has been a diligent tester, and an active PJIRA participant.
[8:29]	Hypatia Callisto:	wb WarKirby :)
[8:29]	WarKirby Magojiro:	everything is working again. yay
[8:29]	Andrew Linden:	If ryozu were connected to the love machine I'd have sent him some love.
[8:29]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	XD
[8:29]	WarKirby Magojiro:	o.0
[8:30]	Philip Linden:	Do we know of any reproducable content loss bugs?
[8:30]	WarKirby Magojiro is unsure of the precise meaning of that....
[8:30]	WarKirby Magojiro:	We have at least one easily reproducible crash
[8:30]	WarKirby Magojiro:	which could lead to content loss
[8:30]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	War: The LoveMachine, from what I understand is a kind of internal "thank you" system at LL
[8:30]	WarKirby Magojiro knows that much
[8:30]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, there is some content that works in Havok1 but crashes Havok4, that might qualify in that category.
[8:31]	Philip Linden:	War, how could the crash lead to content loss?
[8:31]	WarKirby Magojiro:	Rollbacks
[8:31]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Rollbacks
[8:31]	Philip Linden:	OK
[8:31]	WarKirby Magojiro:	the same way any crash can
[8:31]	Andrew Linden:	And there are some region crossing bugs that seem to at least temporarily destroy some content (vehicles I think).
[8:31]	WarKirby Magojiro:	sims rollback to a saved state on crashing generally
[8:31]	Philip Linden:	do we think that a sim running havok4 will crash more than one running havok1?
[8:31]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I think that type of content loss won't delay an early rollout
[8:31]	WarKirby Magojiro:	More in general, I think not. But as long as specific issues exist
[8:31]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	As it's already a risk to start with
[8:32]	WarKirby Magojiro:	it can be crashed easily by targeted attacjs
[8:32]	Andrew Linden:	Depends on the content, but I suspect Havok4 will crash less statistically across the world.
[8:32]	Philip Linden:	Can havok1 be crashed more or less easily by targeted attacks?
[8:32]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I agree, Havok4 is markably more stable
[8:32]	WarKirby Magojiro:	Much more so, I think
[8:32]	Andrew Linden:	Havok1 crashes more easily from targeted attacks.
[8:32]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	There's currently an exploit in Havok1 that can crash the sim instantly and reliably
[8:32]	Andrew Linden:	However, once you have a known mode for crashing it then becomes trivial.
[8:32]	WarKirby Magojiro:	in terms of the number of causes
[8:33]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Deep think sucks.
[8:33]	Andrew Linden:	Trivial == trivial
[8:33]	Philip Linden:	So my feeling is that, because we have sims that frequently crash in havok 1,
[8:33]	WarKirby Magojiro:	yes, exactly, andrew
[8:33]	Philip Linden:	and risk content loss in that way, we should very aggressively get havok4 out there.
[8:33]	Philip Linden:	because the net effect seems like it will be less content loss.
[8:33]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I don't think crashing is much of an issue
[8:33]	Philip Linden:	does that reasoning make sense?
[8:33]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Here's the real question: How much broken content is it worth risking?
[8:33]	WarKirby Magojiro:	there is that, too
[8:33]	Philip Linden:	Waiting seems to just cause more loss, given what you guys are saying.
[8:34]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	There are a good number of products out there that, at the moment do not work correctly. Many fail to function at all.
[8:34]	WarKirby Magojiro:	There's also a PR factor there, though
[8:34]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Those that fail to work at all may as well be lost content
[8:34]	WarKirby Magojiro:	People will happily wait longer if you explain it's to make sure the job is done properly
[8:34]	Philip Linden:	I'm much more concerned about reducing content loss and crashing than PR.
[8:34]	Andrew Linden:	Well, in the trial we would find estate owners willing to try Havok4. If it doesn't work for their region we would natrually put them back on Haovk1.
[8:34]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	This is true
[8:34]	Philip Linden:	We can handle the PR :)
[8:35]	Andrew Linden:	Seems like a low-risk and low pain trial.
[8:35]	WarKirby Magojiro agrees
[8:35]	Hypatia Callisto can talk to Desmond about possibly trying it, can't guarantee, but I can ask.
[8:35]	Philip Linden:	War I just don't see the logic in waiting if we believe that we can reduce content loss now.
[8:35]	WarKirby Magojiro:	Will it be possible to fix SVC-917 and it's ilk before release, at least ?
[8:35]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	But at the price of rendering scripted physics very very broken.
[8:36]	Andrew Linden:	Philip, perhaps we could start hunting for the estate owners now... and put their regions up on the Havok4 preview.
[8:36]	Philip Linden:	Which is that war?
[8:36]	WarKirby Magojiro:	something tells me this isn't a benevolent particle effect
[8:36]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Crash mode involving avatar interpenetration
[8:36]	WarKirby Magojiro:	That's the crash issue I reported yesterday
[8:36]	WarKirby Magojiro:	some common scripted weapons trigger it easily
[8:37]	WarKirby Magojiro:	not yesterday, but a few days ago
[8:37]	Ryozu Yamamoto has particles turned off ;)
[8:37]	WarKirby Magojiro:	Can someone return that emitter, please?
[8:37]	PulseBurst Flow:	View>Beacons>HideParticles
[8:37]	Hypatia Callisto:	I just turned them off, too
[8:37]	Can't reposition -- permission denied
[8:37]	Ivy Lane:	htanks pulse
[8:38]	WarKirby Magojiro:	there are lots of them
[8:38]	WarKirby Magojiro:	small orbs
[8:38]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Well, that was silly
[8:38]	WarKirby Magojiro:	there we go
[8:38]	Andrew Linden:	there, are the particles gone?
[8:38]	Andrew Linden:	I kicked the resident and deleted all of his objects
[8:38]	WarKirby Magojiro:	I think Philip is just an irresistable target to them
[8:38]	JJ5x5 Underwood:	ah thats good
[8:38]	Warthog Jun:	there was talk about making a subset of mega prims permissible
[8:38]	Philip Linden:	thx andrew
[8:38]	Hypatia Callisto:	yeah gone now
[8:38]	Warthog Jun:	what of that
[8:38]	PulseBurst Flow:	No, not gone, but you can hide them..
[8:38]	Andrew Linden:	I now have particles turned ooff
[8:38]	Andrew Linden:	off
[8:38]	PulseBurst Flow:	View> Beacons> HideParticles
[8:39]	Hypatia Callisto:	turned them on to see if they were gone, they are
[8:39]	PulseBurst Flow:	now gone
[8:39]	WarKirby Magojiro:	That issue isn't something that will hide easily
[8:39]	WarKirby Magojiro:	it's a crash people will run into quickly
[8:39]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Very easily
[8:39]	WarKirby Magojiro:	it would be good to maybe roll out a closed beta
[8:40]	Andrew Linden:	No, we aren't going to enable the creation of new megaprims yet
[8:40]	WarKirby Magojiro:	and fix these things before the full release
[8:40]	Andrew Linden:	However, I think were aren't going to destroy all megaprims
[8:40]	WarKirby Magojiro:	by that, I mean the selected estates idea
[8:40]	Philip Linden:	this problem, war... it involves creating a prim inside an avatar?
[8:40]	Andrew Linden:	just those with sides > 256 (that was the tentative plan anyway)
[8:40]	WarKirby Magojiro:	hmm
[8:40]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Philip: Several at the same time
[8:40]	WarKirby Magojiro:	not so much creation
[8:40]	WarKirby Magojiro:	I've seen to happen with a prim being moved there too
[8:41]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, the "push in no push" technique of rezzing complex objects inside an avatar can crash Havok4
[8:41]	WarKirby Magojiro:	hmm
[8:41]	WarKirby Magojiro:	doesn't even have to be complex, though
[8:41]	Philip Linden:	static or active objects andrew?
[8:41]	Andrew Linden:	If the object is a simple box I don't think ti will crash.
[8:41]	WarKirby Magojiro:	simple spheres
[8:41]	WarKirby Magojiro:	active objects, of course
[8:41]	Andrew Linden:	Dynamic objects I think.
[8:41]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	6 physical unlinked spheres
[8:42]	Philip Linden:	could we generally disallow physics on objects inside avatars>?
[8:42]	Philip Linden:	created there.
[8:42]	Andrew Linden:	Really Ryozu, they are spheres and unlinked? The one I saw that was crashing was not spheres, and the objects had several prims
[8:42]	WarKirby Magojiro:	That still wouldn't solve the issue though
[8:42]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	WarKirbty, want to demonstrate the antigrav on me?
[8:42]	WarKirby Magojiro:	two of the 4 repros there don't involve creating inside the av
[8:43]	WarKirby Magojiro:	certainly
[8:43]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	One moment
[8:43]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, Philip I've got a plan for how to tackle that problem... but it is a 2-4 day project so I was punting it for now.
[8:43]	WarKirby Magojiro:	watch carefully, everyone
[8:43]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	If you turn on highlight transparent
[8:43]	WarKirby Magojiro:	view transparent is recommended
[8:43]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	You'll see the prims in questin
[8:43]	WarKirby Magojiro:	hmm. slow..
[8:44]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Ring detached maybe?
[8:44]	WarKirby Magojiro:	doesn't seem to be triggering
[8:44]	WarKirby Magojiro:	triying again
[8:44]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Huh, weird
[8:44]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Also seem to have lost Phil, heh
[8:44]	WarKirby Magojiro:	might be to do with the number of people here, messing up the targeting menu
[8:44]	WarKirby Magojiro:	hmm
[8:45]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Ah, could be
[8:45]	WarKirby Magojiro:	Maybe he ran for safety
[8:45]	Hypatia Callisto:	hee
[8:45]	Hevenz Vansant:	hi everyone
[8:45]	WarKirby Magojiro:	guess a demonstration is out of the question for now
[8:45]	Andrew Linden:	Anyway, I suspect I can totally nerf push in no push, but that won't solve the fundamental crash bug, just that one repro instance.
[8:46]	WarKirby Magojiro:	as I mentioned, jcool is a very messy coder
[8:46]	WarKirby Magojiro:	I wonder if there are any benevolent uses to it
[8:46]	Andrew Linden:	Did Philip crash out? Or did he have to run?
[8:46]	Sidewinder Linden:	andrew - if we were to remove push in no push, would there be non-weapons content that you can think of that would be affected?
[8:46]	WarKirby Magojiro:	he didn't say anything. just vanished
[8:46]	Hypatia Callisto:	no indication Andrew, yeah
[8:47]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I can think of one possible issue
[8:47]	WarKirby Magojiro:	How exactly would you nerf it ?
[8:47]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Someone has created a "Mario tube" cannon that works in no push areas, elevators may have some issue
[8:47]	Andrew Linden:	Well... sorry, as I mentioned to you yesterday Sidewinder, I couldn't stop all modes of pushing an avatar around... the giant teacup that lifts the avatar into the sky, for example.
[8:47]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Hard to say until it's done
[8:47]	Sidewinder Linden:	right
[8:47]	WarKirby Magojiro:	yes, elevators are my primary concern there
[8:47]	Andrew Linden:	But I can solve the "object interpenetrates avatar" mode.
[8:48]	WarKirby Magojiro:	oh
[8:48]	WarKirby Magojiro:	Asset failure
[8:48]	Andrew Linden:	And I don't think this would damage much content that was NOT trying to shove the avatar around.
[8:48]	WarKirby Magojiro:	that's why the demo failed
[8:48]	WarKirby Magojiro:	[8:48] Unable to create requested object. The request timed out. Please try again.
[8:48]	WarKirby Magojiro:	There are some benevolent uses to shoving people around a little too, though
[8:49]	WarKirby Magojiro:	for example, chairs that move you into an appropriate position on standing up
[8:49]	WarKirby Magojiro:	so you're not standing inside it
[8:49]	Andrew Linden:	I'm not nerfing llPushObject() or forces from attachments.
[8:49]	Andrew Linden:	Er... I'm not talking about those.
[8:49]	WarKirby Magojiro:	impact velocity ?
[8:50]	Andrew Linden:	No, not impact velocity either. Just the interpenetraton resolution code, between avatars and other objects specifically.
[8:50]	Warthog Jun:	that was fun
[8:50]	WarKirby Magojiro:	then what would happen in the case of interpolation ?
[8:50]	Sidewinder Linden:	if that change were made, would we still have easy to trigger sim kill modes?
[8:50]	Warthog Jun:	was my crash a result of your demo
[8:50]	Andrew Linden:	Er... it would have to be more targeted... so only between objects that are using script calls to get into the avatar's collision body.
[8:50]	WarKirby Magojiro:	As andrew mentioned, that change would not fix this particular issue, at least
[8:51]	Sidewinder Linden:	philip crashed and will be back in soon... btw
[8:51]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	odd
[8:51]	Andrew Linden:	Right, it wouldn't solve the fundamental crash, but it might actually stop that particular bit of content from crashing.
[8:51]	Sidewinder Linden:	ok
[8:51]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I've not seen so many coinciding client crashes.
[8:51]	WarKirby Magojiro:	hmm
[8:52]	Sidewinder Linden:	one thing we might want to remember is that even as-is, the current build removes a lot of "incidental crashes" caused by normal content...
[8:52]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Pulse too?
[8:52]	WarKirby Magojiro:	o.0
[8:52]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Are you all crashing?
[8:52]	Hevenz Vansant:	dang
[8:52]	Ivy Lane:	yes repeatedly
[8:52]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Something up here
[8:52]	Ivy Lane:	since the attempted demo
[8:52]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	That's really strange
[8:52]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	The demo didn't even rez
[8:52]	PulseBurst Flow:	I guess everyone gets a turn crashing today...
[8:52]	Sidewinder Linden:	is everyone running the newest viewer build that dropped yesterday? just out of curiosity
[8:53]	Hypatia Callisto:	I am
[8:53]	WarKirby Magojiro:	I'm not
[8:53]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I'm not.
[8:53]	Sidewinder Linden:	i am
[8:53]	WarKirby Magojiro:	still using the previous RC
[8:53]	Andrew Linden:	I've got a very old viewer build. Probably two months.
[8:53]	Hevenz Vansant:	im running it and so far all good on this end
[8:53]	Sidewinder Linden:	for those who are crashing - is it the newest?
[8:53]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I've got 1.13.3(5)
[8:53]	Hypatia Callisto:	I crashed and its the newest
[8:53]	Sidewinder Linden:	hmmm
[8:53]	WarKirby Magojiro:	Welcome back philip
[8:53]	Hypatia Callisto:	newest regular release, not an RC
[8:53]	Warthog Jun:	newest stable
[8:53]	Warthog Jun:	dot 3
[8:53]	PulseBurst Flow:	I'm using last RC...think it's same as the new one.
[8:53]	Andrew Linden:	I'm no 1.18.2(1)
[8:53]	Ivy Lane:	not yet
[8:53]	Warthog Jun:	saw the blog about dot 4
[8:54]	Warthog Jun:	but its still RC
[8:54]	Sidewinder Linden:	ok... well back to the topic at hand... ;)
[8:54]	Hypatia Callisto:	Second Life 1.18.4 (3)
[8:54]	Philip Linden:	sorry. Did a number of us crash?
[8:54]	Sidewinder Linden:	(doesn't seem version specific)
[8:54]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Yes Phil
[8:54]	Andrew Linden:	Ye
[8:54]	WarKirby Magojiro:	seems so
[8:54]	Hypatia Callisto:	yes
[8:54]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Only a few of us didn't crash
[8:54]	PulseBurst Flow:	yes, a lot of us crahed.
[8:54]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Very strange
[8:54]	Philip Linden:	I'm going to run. Thanks for having me, you guys.
[8:54]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	The objects in question never even rezzed
[8:54]	PulseBurst Flow:	oh..well some did
[8:54]	Philip Linden:	Thanks for the thoughts.
[8:54]	Andrew Linden:	I tried to scan for malicious objects but didn't find any nearby
[8:54]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Thanks for coming Phil
[8:54]	WarKirby Magojiro:	alright
[8:54]	Hypatia Callisto:	Was a pleasure :) first time seeing you inworld :)
[8:55]	WarKirby Magojiro waves
[8:55]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	At any rate
[8:55]	WarKirby Magojiro:	Why aren't these meetings hosted in private sims ?
[8:55]	Warthog Jun:	hmmm be right back
[8:55]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Andrew just doesn't have any land picked out
[8:56]	WarKirby Magojiro:	Not private as inacessible
[8:56]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, I had mentioned that earlier, and wanted to reiterate near the end of this meeting...
[8:56]	WarKirby Magojiro:	but a place where the meeting is the only reason to go there
[8:56]	Hypatia Callisto:	Isn't Brampton a Linden sim? Thought it was.
[8:56]	Andrew Linden:	I'm going to change my office hours schedule, and I'm also looking for a new location.
[8:56]	Andrew Linden:	But the new location has to be in a publicly accessible place
[8:57]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	What are your thoughts on HIppotropolis?
[8:57]	Andrew Linden:	but I"m looking for suggestions for some Governor Linden land I can appropriate for my office.
[8:57]	WarKirby Magojiro:	oh, I know
[8:57]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	It has a meeting area that shouldn't be in use at the proposed times
[8:57]	Andrew Linden:	The new hours will be: Tues 11-12 (Euro friendly) and Thurs 5-6
[8:57]	WarKirby Magojiro:	to the west of ferox
[8:57]	WarKirby Magojiro:	we have 6 empty water sims
[8:58]	WarKirby Magojiro:	no build/script, so people can't use them for much
[8:58]	Andrew Linden:	Also, I hear that this hour conflicts with Zero's hours.
[8:58]	WarKirby Magojiro:	would be goofd to maybe setup in the centre
[8:58]	WarKirby Magojiro:	no render lag from surroundings
[8:58]	Andrew Linden:	I'll check out Hippotropolis.
[8:58]	WarKirby Magojiro:	hippotropolis is nice too
[8:59]	WarKirby Magojiro:	rob holds meetings there
[8:59]	Sidewinder Linden would like to chat a minute about general "where are we" questions... before everyone heads off...
[8:59]	WarKirby Magojiro nods
[8:59]	Andrew Linden:	But I won't actually move the location until after I'm able to announce the location at these hours.
[8:59]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	We still have half an hour, right?
[8:59]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Wait, no
[8:59]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	That's thursdays
[8:59]	Sidewinder Linden:	right
[8:59]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Tuesdays
[8:59]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Gah, okay, I'm going back to bed, "where we are" question?
[8:59]	WarKirby Magojiro:	Fire away, sidewinder
[8:59]	Sidewinder Linden:	i am wondering how you all think the build/construction/linking end of things are doing?
[9:00]	Andrew Linden:	Sidewinder, you missed the first part of the meeting. I mentioned that the update I was planning for today must be delayed.
[9:00]	Andrew Linden:	Dan Linden tested it and deemed it unworthy.
[9:00]	Sidewinder Linden:	is your impression with the latest build that you've used, that we will still be nuking a lot of content?
[9:00]	WarKirby Magojiro:	I find it tricky to build with things, because of the early collision issue
[9:00]	Sidewinder Linden:	ok thanks andrew
[9:00]	Sidewinder Linden:	early collission?
[9:00]	Andrew Linden:	Mostly because of some heightfiel (terrain) collision problems caused by a new heightfield implementation we were trying.
[9:00]	WarKirby Magojiro:	When objects are being moved in edit mode, they collide with things
[9:00]	Sidewinder Linden:	ahh two physical objects, shift drag?
[9:00]	WarKirby Magojiro:	when under current havok, that doesn't happen til released
[9:01]	Andrew Linden:	I know what WarKirby is talking about...
[9:01]	WarKirby Magojiro:	yes, that's a symptom
[9:01]	Andrew Linden:	that bug is assigned to me.
[9:01]	Sidewinder Linden:	kk yes just checking which one
[9:01]	WarKirby Magojiro:	shift dragging often launches things
[9:01]	Andrew Linden:	Drag copying dynamic objects collide with the new copy and the unselected piece goes flying
[9:01]	Sidewinder Linden:	are you still finding content that, when rezzed, does not rez correctly? (rotations, locations etc not right?)
[9:01]	WarKirby Magojiro:	One solution to that part, at least
[9:01]	WarKirby Magojiro:	would be a delay
[9:01]	WarKirby Magojiro:	on creating the copy
[9:02]	Andrew Linden:	No WarKirby, the solution I'm going to try is to disable collisions on a per-object-pair basis, until they stop penetrating.
[9:02]	WarKirby Magojiro nods
[9:02]	WarKirby Magojiro:	that sounds good too
[9:02]	WarKirby Magojiro hopes it works
[9:02]	Andrew Linden:	That is something that is doable in Havok4, but I have to build the data structures for it.
[9:02]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Sounds nice
[9:03]	WarKirby Magojiro:	I've not seen problems with rezzing content
[9:03]	WarKirby Magojiro:	though oddly, my ki blasts seem to be heavier
[9:03]	WarKirby Magojiro:	by roughly 20%
[9:03]	Andrew Linden:	btw, per-pair-collision -disabling is also the solution to the push-in-no-push avatar collider
[9:03]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I've had no problems lately with the building/rotation side of things except the lack of SetStatus Rotation settings
[9:03]	Sidewinder Linden:	what i am trying to get a feel for is, do you think we're getting close to being "safe" with rezzing content without breaking it in fundamental ways, even if some physics tuning might still need to be done on dynamics?
[9:03]	WarKirby Magojiro:	I see
[9:03]	Sidewinder Linden:	kk ryozu thanks
[9:04]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I had a problem a few days ago with not being able to repositin a certain HUD object, but that may have been a peculiarty of the script in it
[9:04]	WarKirby Magojiro:	tunneling throuhg objects is a lot more difficult, it seems
[9:04]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I can still tunnel through them alright
[9:04]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	With some adjustments
[9:04]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	My biggest issue isn't so much the tunneling, but two other things
[9:05]	Andrew Linden:	I was testing tunneling in the tip of the Havok4 codebase... it was working pretty good.
[9:05]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	llMoveToTarget is still behaving in two vastly different ways
[9:05]	WarKirby Magojiro:	two ?
[9:05]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Yes
[9:05]	Andrew Linden:	What is the second way/
[9:05]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	WHen I initially log on, it's not nearly as effective
[9:05]	WarKirby Magojiro:	can you elaborate ?
[9:05]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Very slow, very dampened... this is in an attachment
[9:05]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	If I detach the object, re-compile the script, then re-attach, it behaves much much more aggressivly
[9:06]	WarKirby Magojiro:	o.0
[9:06]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Also, it doesn't seem to be critically damping an avatar like it does an object
[9:06]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I end up rubbering banding quite a bit more, it feels like
[9:06]	WarKirby Magojiro:	The inconsistency seems to be definitely a bug, I'd say
[9:06]	WarKirby Magojiro:	rubberbanding isn't good either
[9:07]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	There's one other issue I'm concerned with, also on avatar movement
[9:07]	Andrew Linden:	Well, it seemed to be damping the avatar correctly for me when I tested it a few days ago. However I don't think those bugs would disuade some adventurous estate owners from trying it out in SL early.
[9:07]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	WHen an avatar collides with an object at sufficient speeds, it goes into a "Landing" mode
[9:07]	Andrew Linden:	Oh... yeah "landing" will defeat any external or attachment pushes.
[9:08]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	It maintains the velocity it had, but no scripted physics work while in landing mode
[9:08]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Which is different from Havok1
[9:08]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Also, it seems you land even when hitting your head
[9:08]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Or hitting a vertical wall
[9:08]	Andrew Linden:	Oh hrm...
[9:08]	WarKirby Magojiro:	a landing mode sounds peculiar
[9:08]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	It's those cases where you fall down, and can't move for a moment, War
[9:08]	WarKirby Magojiro:	especiialy given I like to zip around a lot with the omniphaze
[9:09]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Often times when I tunnel through an object, I'll continue to fly
[9:09]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	As the object can't stop me
[9:09]	WarKirby Magojiro:	I see
[9:09]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	And my velocity was very high, so I keep going
[9:09]	Andrew Linden:	No, the landing mode defeats pushes in Havok1 too. The repro is a trampoline on which you fall very hard.
[9:09]	Andrew Linden:	The trampoline cannot push you until you are out of landing.
[9:09]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Odd, I can OmniPhaze out of landing mode quite easily
[9:09]	Hypatia Callisto:	I just spoke to Desmond Shang, he said he would be happy to participate in a Havok 4 test (in relation to what was said earlier for estate owners) He owns Caledon - we've got about 30 sims, some have vehicle infrastructure, some not.
[9:09]	Andrew Linden:	However... attachments can probably still push you when landing in Havok1.
[9:09]	Andrew Linden:	But not in Havok4
[9:10]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Yes, that's the difference
[9:10]	WarKirby Magojiro:	that's not good
[9:10]	Andrew Linden:	So there may be some bugs around that.
[9:10]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Now, these aren't huge issues
[9:10]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	The move to target thing is big on my list, but not all -that- critical
[9:10]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	It will affect a fair amount of content however
[9:10]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, so attachment forces should not be defeated by landing. That is easy to fix.
[9:11]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I don't mean to make a fuss about it, hehe
[9:11]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	It's just my perosnal peeve as it affects me the most
[9:11]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Really though, they aren't that big a deal
[9:11]	Andrew Linden:	Ryozu, after the next update I'll be needing a good repro for you llMoveToTarget overshoot problem on avatars.
[9:11]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Alright
[9:11]	Andrew Linden:	Last time I tested it it looked fine to me.
[9:11]	Andrew Linden:	But lets wait for the next update.
[9:11]	WarKirby Magojiro:	kk
[9:11]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Sounds good tome
[9:11]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	To me even
[9:12]	Andrew Linden:	BTW, this table is about to get autoreturned.
[9:12]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Sorry for keeping you out so long ;)
[9:12]	Andrew Linden:	I'm going to have to get back to work.
[9:12]	WarKirby Magojiro:	oh
[9:12]	WarKirby Magojiro:	no problem andrew
[9:12]	WarKirby Magojiro:	it's been good to talk to you
[9:12]	Hypatia Callisto:	same :)
[9:12]	Andrew Linden:	Thanks for coming everyone.
[9:12]	PulseBurst Flow:	Thanks guys..
[9:12]	Sidewinder Linden:	thanks guys
[9:12]	PulseBurst Flow:	see you..
[9:12]	Ivy Lane:	nice to meet you all