Mesh/Archive/2011-07-11

Agenda

1. Possibility of 'cheap' meshes that have the same collisions as sculpted prims, in order to reduce their impact on the simulators. --Kyrah Abattoir 16:42, 2 July 2011 (PDT)
2. Is this the final prim equivalency accounting as it is right now, or are you still working on it? [Vivienne Daguerre]
3. Given that people will work around the increased prim count on linking mixed tool sets by not linking them, will you reconsider taking prim and sculpt complexity into accounting on linking to mesh? I think this also breaks legacy content, sculpt tool kits for builders--windows, doors, arches, etc. These things were made to be linked to builds. If a sculpt or a prim ever counts as more than one prim, linked or not to other things, then in my opinion legacy content is broken.[Vivienne Daguerre]
4. Using different DAE files for the various LODs and Physical model gives undesirable results if the bounding box is not the same in all files: each file/object is scaled and centered individually in the upload process, resulting in uneven scale and offsets (see also JIRA CTS-244). Adding a bounding box object in all the files and including it in the exported scene does not help (even multiple objects in a DAE file get scaled and centered independently). How do we deal with optimization for objects that have extruded details only needed for higher LODs ? Can't all the objects involved in the model upload share the same space ? [Bunnie Mills]
5. Please provide documentation of the algorithm used for calculating mesh upload fees. This is necessary for sensible optimisation. [Drongle McMahon]
6. Which physics shape type is the physics cost shown in the uploader for, and are we going to get the option to change it? [Drongle]
7. The current limitations for vehicles (32 linked parts, 32 PE, 32 physical cost) seem too tough in the PE figure to allow good detail when many rounded shapes are involved. Maybe keep the max physics cost low, but allow some overhead in the PE (even 48 would make a difference) ? [Bunnie Mills]
8. The uploader requires that each LOD's model has the same number of faces (materials). This means some drastic optimization won't be possible or some workaround should be used, like keeping at least a few vertices for each material in the reduced models, just to preserve the face count in the upload process. Please clarify [Bunnie Mills]
9. Can you confirm that a 64M prim used as a regular prim will be a regarded as a legacy prim? [Graham Dartmouth]
10. Possible bug in the importer for rigged av's. I've checked my vertex groups over and over. This seems to be an issue with the importer, and subtle too. Read jira for details. Hoping it was error on my part, but I did what I could to rule out possibilities. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/CTS-689 [Raz Welles]
11. Are the upload fees and PE costs finalized once Mesh is rolled out in the main grid RC channels? If not, is there a chance of content loss when using mesh on RC sims? [Maygray Heron]
12. What is the LOD-Generator in the mesh-client based on? Any chance on an optional seam-preserving algorithm across all LODs? (usefull for large-scale terrains to prevent gaps between different LOD levels) [Maygray Heron]
13. What solution can be achieved to address the problems associated with creating and selling mesh clothing items since you have stated you will not develop any type of parametric deformer or cage system to compensate for different avatar sizes and shapes. Currently, clothing is almost unusable/unmarketable unless is it a complete outfit from neck to feet, or an entire avatar, which is even then very limited in adjustability. Being that clothing is one of the largest markets in SL, this would seem to be a viable issue that needs to be solved. The same problem occurred in bluemars, and was only solved with the parametric deformer system, which is similar to how clothing textures currently "shrink fit" to your shape. This would also alleviate the need for skeletal rigging, which is extremely difficult. [Maxwell Graf]
14. What is the primary aim of introducing mesh, i.e. - what do you want to see us use it for? [Maxwell Graf]
15. Is the license of the llm file of the Viewer LGPL? Or is it CC BY 3.0? [Yuzuru Jewell]
16. Any news on pivot points? Are pivots working again? [Ashasekayi Ra]
17. Any documentation/glossary releases for the layman yet? [Eleanora Newell]
18. Is anyone currently working on mesh planning to leave Linden Lab immediately after it is released? Draconis Neurocam 12:45, 11 July 2011 (PDT)
19. can we get a central location listing of tutorials by beta users? [Eleanora Newell]

Meeting Notes

Attendees List

• Angel (angel.alphaville)
• Asha (ashasekayi.ra)
• Bunnie Mills (bunnie.mills)
• Charlar Linden (charlar.linden)
• Chiron (chiron)
• Cobalt Neutra (cobalt.neutra)
• Dahlia Trimble (dahlia.trimble)
• Dain Shan (dain.shan)
• Don't Release (donot.release)
• draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam)
• Drongle McMahon (drongle.mcmahon)
• Eleanora Newell (eleanora.newell)
• Eliza Wierwight (eliza.wierwight)
• EzY McAlpine (ezy.mcalpine)
• Graham Dartmouth (graham.dartmouth)
• Υπατία Καλλιστώ (hypatia.callisto)
• Kyrah Abattoir (kyrah.abattoir) (User's Wiki Page)
• Maxwell Graf (maxwell.graf)
• Maygray Heron (maygray.heron)
• Mesh Release (mesh.release)
• Nal (nalates.urriah)
• Nix Manx (nix.manx)
• Nyx Linden (nyx.linden) (User's Wiki Page)
• Prep Linden (prep.linden)
• Ranya Palmer (ranya.palmer)
• davep (runitai.linden)
• Rusalka Writer (rusalka.writer)
• Skygirl Kline (skygirl.kline)
• Tapple Gao (tapple.gao) (User's Wiki Page)
• TheBlack Box (theblack.box) (User's Wiki Page)
• Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda)
• Vivienne Daguerre (vivienne.daguerre)
• Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar)
• Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)

Transcript for Monday July 11, 2011

[12:06]	Nyx Linden	let's get started :)
[12:06]	Dain Shan	Beside the avatars in here? Noone *smirks*
[12:06]	Nyx Linden	first topic: "Possibility of 'cheap' meshes that have the same collisions as sculpted prims, in order to reduce their impact on the simulators. --Kyrah Abattoir 16:42, 2 July 2011 (PDT) "
[12:06]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda)	the sim went belly-up
[12:07]	davep (runitai.linden)	you can do that now by linking to a simple prim, making that prim the root prim of the linked set, making it invisible (100% transparent), and setting the mesh physics shape type to "none"
[12:07]	davep (runitai.linden)	"simple" here means a cube
[12:08]	Nyx Linden	or a sphere
[12:08]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda)	why do I get the feeling that's a garbage answer?
[12:08]	Nyx Linden	(not twisted)
[12:08]	davep (runitai.linden)	I woudln't recommend a sphere, that'll eat your geometry cost
[12:08]	Dain Shan	Moment .. err we have to add another prim for that?
[12:08]	Maxwell Graf	hey drongle.
[12:08]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda)	'cause of the way linking does squat to change PE weights
[12:08]	Nyx Linden	or you can upload a super-simplified physics shape with the mesh to minimize server physics load
[12:08]	Eliza Wierwight	Max ~smiles~
[12:09]	davep (runitai.linden)	let me try it...
[12:09]	Drongle McMahon	Took me 15 minutes to get in!
[12:09]	Chiron	couldn't there just be an option to turn physics off instead of adding a prims etc
[12:09]	Rusalka Writer	You missed the first crash?
[12:10]	davep (runitai.linden)	seems to work for me
[12:11]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	I assume she means the the PE of this mesh would be 1 like a sculpt.... I could be wrong.
[12:11]	Nyx Linden	or use a cube mesh as the mesh's physics shape and decompose it :)
[12:11]	Kyrah Abattoir	IM LATE
[12:11]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	*smacks typo demon
[12:11]	Maygray Heron	or a tetraeder since it think that is the most simple convex hull
[12:11]	davep (runitai.linden)	no, the PE will be taken from the streaming/geometry cost or the physics cost, which ever is higher
[12:11]	Chiron	Nyx - why can't there be a No Physics option ?
[12:12]	davep (runitai.linden)	so if you're bound by streaming cost, making optimal physics doesn't save you anyhthing (unfortunately)
[12:12]	Rusalka Writer	Ooooh, I'm at 0.5 fps. What happened while I was away?
[12:12]	Kyrah Abattoir	was my topic already covered?
[12:12]	Nyx Linden	every linkset in world needs a physics representation of some kind
[12:12]	Chiron	adding extra prims seems counter productive
[12:12]	davep (runitai.linden)	Rusalka: turn off VBO, there's abug in the mac viewer at the moment
[12:12]	davep (runitai.linden)	working on it
[12:12]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Yes, that is why she is asking for a new hybrid type I imagine.
[12:12]	Maxwell Graf	kyrah we just started.
[12:12]	Kyrah Abattoir	great
[12:12]	Drongle McMahon	Spheres linked to meshes are too expensive now for physics shapes.
[12:12]	Rusalka Writer	Mahalo.
[12:12]	Chiron	so will adding a No Physics , Physics prim reduce PE in large objects ?
[12:13]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Kyrah they are talking about yours now. Maybe you can explain it in more detail
[12:13]	Cobalt Neutra	if the PE cost is taken from whichever is higher, then was's the point of simplifying meshes for LOD? It's just going to use whatever will cost the most prims?
[12:13]	Rusalka Writer	Phew. Better.
[12:13]	Rusalka Writer	13.0 fps.
[12:14]	Kyrah Abattoir	Actually my idea was that since there is a big bottleneck on having the sim fetch the collision lod of the mesh if there could be a "cheap mesh" alternative where the sim treat the mesh the same way it's treating sculpts currently, so the sim doesn't actually have to load the mesh from the asset server at all.
[12:14]	Chiron	there's no incentive to create economical meshes for SL , with such high PE for mesh objects
[12:14]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda)	speaking of physics shapes....
[12:14]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda)	I have a physics shape that's intended to be like a lathed cylinder
[12:14]	davep (runitai.linden)	Kyrah: the duck is an example of how to do that -- the sim won't load the physics shape if the physics shape type is set to none
[12:14]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda)	how many points are necessary around the circumference to ensure it acts 'round'?
[12:15]	davep (runitai.linden)	but to do that , the mesh must be the child prim of a linked set
[12:15]	davep (runitai.linden)	it's actually just as effective to upload a cheap physics shape with the mesh
[12:15]	Charlar Linden	We've got a long way to go, so since Dave's responded to Kyrah, let's go to the next one.
[12:15]	Charlar Linden	#2 Is this the final prim equivalency accounting as it is right now, or are you still working on it? [Vivienne Daguerre]
[12:15]	Kyrah Abattoir	davep, so do those mesh with simple collision get a discount in PE cost?
[12:15]	davep (runitai.linden)	yes and no --
[12:16]	davep (runitai.linden)	the equation is pretty much done, but the budget is still up for discussion
[12:16]	davep (runitai.linden)	assuming the test plan here passes for your meshes:
[12:16]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)	How about LL provide the dae file for simple physics?
[12:16]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	It still won't be below 2 PE if it is a single mesh Kyrah.... as far as I know
[12:16]	Kyrah Abattoir	so it's still going to be 1+x rounded up even for a mesh that is only fetched clientside?
[12:16]	Drongle McMahon	Is the physics eaquation still what's in the wiki?
[12:16]	davep (runitai.linden)	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Streaming_Cost_test
[12:17]	davep (runitai.linden)	oh, I overspoke
[12:17]	davep (runitai.linden)	strreaming cost is pretty much done
[12:17]	Nyx Linden	Falcon recently updated the physics cost, but I'm not sure if its 100% up to date yet
[12:17]	davep (runitai.linden)	the overall PE is still being tweaked
[12:17]	Charlar Linden	#3 Given that people will work around the increased prim count on linking mixed tool sets by not linking them, will you reconsider taking prim and sculpt complexity into accounting on linking to mesh? I think this also breaks legacy content, sculpt tool kits for builders--windows, doors, arches, etc. These things were made to be linked to builds. If a sculpt or a prim ever counts as more than one prim, linked or not to other things, then in my opinion legacy content is broken.[Vivienne Daguerre]
[12:18]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Server cost is still being discussed?
[12:18]	Chiron	PE doesn't need to be tweaked, it needs to be bashed over the head !
[12:18]	Drongle McMahon	Davep...that wiki page still has the wrong r/d ratios.
[12:18]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda)	+1, Chiron
[12:18]	davep (runitai.linden)	drongle: r/d ratios?
[12:18]	Charlar Linden	Anwer to #4 - we've been taking in your feedback and discussing the issue.
[12:18]	Drongle McMahon	I think using mesh-type costs for legacy prims in a recipe for disaster.
[12:19]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	agreed
[12:19]	Bunnie Mills	great, thanks
[12:19]	Charlar Linden	That's a good summary of your feedback so far Drongle
[12:19]	Charlar Linden	:-)
[12:19]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda)	I really think this policy of having NO legacy content broken, EVER... is kinda a bad idea
[12:19]	Charlar Linden	#5 Please provide documentation of the algorithm used for calculating mesh upload fees. This is necessary for sensible optimisation. [Drongle McMahon]
[12:19]	Cobalt Neutra	seriously, when your average user finds his prim build suddenly weighs a hundred times more than his parcel cana ctually hold, because he attached a window to it, you're going to see the pitchforks and torches come out.
[12:20]	Chiron	I'm happy with upload fees. If we pay more can we get lower PEs ?
[12:20]	Charlar Linden	Answer #5 - we're still doing major review of the upload cost.
[12:20]	Rusalka Writer	Getting your house returned to inventory in bits is a drag.
[12:20]	Charlar Linden	Once we settle it down in the next few days, we'll publish something
[12:20]	Angel (angel.alphaville)	just don t publish lies
[12:20]	Angel (angel.alphaville)	that mesh is for "everyone"
[12:20]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)	So I can't make tutorial video of ROKURO..
[12:20]	Angel (angel.alphaville)	with these upload costs it is not
[12:21]	Drongle McMahon	My only comment is that L$150 minimum is too high. It rules out useful small simple meshes.
[12:21]	Angel (angel.alphaville)	it also rules out a very big user base
[12:21]	Chiron	PEs are the most important issue. They dictate whether mesh is usable or not. Right now most mesh objects that aren't AV based or size of a mouse are not usable and redundant
[12:21]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)	I agreed.
[12:21]	Charlar Linden	We hear you on upload costs, we're reviewing them.
[12:21]	Nix Manx	should be a set fee like everything else
[12:21]	Angel (angel.alphaville)	bigger than merchants
[12:21]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda)	or forces people to sell them for tons to cover the cost
[12:21]	Charlar Linden	It's not final.
[12:22]	Bunnie Mills	: )
[12:22]	Charlar Linden	#6 Which physics shape type is the physics cost shown in the uploader for, and are we going to get the option to change it? [Drongle]
[12:22]	Drongle McMahon	I'm thinking of people who are not selling them, so can't recoup.
[12:22]	Rusalka Writer	I have no problem selling things cheap, but they can't ruin my customers existing builds.
[12:22]	Nyx Linden	we show the costs for what the mesh will be costed when you first rez it
[12:22]	Cobalt Neutra	the drawbacks of using mesh currently far outweigh the benefits. I can't see the current numbers as being even remotely acceptable to the general population of builders. Mesh is on the verge of being kicked aside as an also-ran.
[12:23]	Maxwell Graf	meh-sh.
[12:23]	Nyx Linden	the server passes down more data, but we wanted to keep the display pretty simple, and not overwhelm everyone with a ton of numbers
[12:23]	Drongle McMahon	Nyx. S that's CH, but I need to know the Prim cost
[12:23]	Rusalka Writer	All I would feel comfortable selling at present is avatars.
[12:23]	Drongle McMahon	... that is the cost as physics type Prim.
[12:24]	TheBlack Box	it would be smart to keep in mind that lowering PE later on is much easier than increasing it later on ... so it makes a lot of sense to start Mesh with high PE
[12:25]	Nix Manx	not when people wont buy them
[12:25]	Chiron	there is no start to mesh with a high PE !
[12:25]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	That is making the assumption that it will be lowered
[12:25]	Nix Manx	or use them
[12:25]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda)	and not with LL's track record when it comes to supporting released features
[12:25]	Chiron	mesh is a dead Dodo with these high PEs
[12:25]	TheBlack Box	mesh will have a start no matter the PE ... Avatars and attachments ...
[12:26]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda)	not when there's no bone lengths
[12:26]	Nix Manx	no doubt but with either changes to scuplties or mesh only regions, i cant really see the benefits
[12:26]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda)	either you model it perfectly to the standard SL skeleton, or it fouls up
[12:26]	TheBlack Box	even if Avatar bone-weight is messed up you stuill got attachments to start with
[12:26]	Nix Manx	except for avatars*
[12:26]	Dain Shan	Nope .. Because the attachments are already there as sculpts.. noone gona buy a new one if he has already a working one
[12:27]	Drongle McMahon	Everyone knows the costs are lower on the Mesh Experimental server after correction of the diameter/radius bug?
[12:27]	TheBlack Box	of they look better people will buy them
[12:27]	Maxwell Graf	i modelled this suit exactly to the default avi, and im wearing the default shape, and its completely out of whack.
[12:27]	Charlar Linden	moving on, we have a full agenda today.
[12:27]	Charlar Linden	#7 The current limitations for vehicles (32 linked parts, 32 PE, 32 physical cost) seem too tough in the PE figure to allow good detail when many rounded shapes are involved. Maybe keep the max physics cost low, but allow some overhead in the PE (even 48 would make a difference) ? [Bunnie Mills]
[12:27]	Maxwell Graf	so even that doesnt work.
[12:27]	Nyx Linden	the limitation to make an object physical or a vehicle is that only the "physics weight" needs to be 32 prims or less. You can have more than 32 prims in a linkset and make it physical as long as the overall physics weight is 32 or less
[12:27]	Tapple Gao	shouts: could you guys move closer to the border so I can hear? the sim is full
[12:27]	Bunnie Mills	ahh, that wasn't obvious : P
[12:28]	Nyx Linden	32 has always beent he limit, and we don't currently have plans to raise that limit, but with the new physics shape types you can add geometrical detail that doesn't contribute to the physics weight
[12:28]	Maygray Heron	so i can use a simple cube for the physics shape, and assign to to a vehicle mesh?
[12:28]	Bunnie Mills	more than 32 prims or PE ?
[12:28]	Nyx Linden	32 is the limit for physics weight. All the other numbers are irrelevant for if you can make it a vehicle
[12:29]	Bunnie Mills	sounds good, thanks
[12:29]	Tapple Gao	thank you
[12:29]	Cobalt Neutra	we've got a shiny new physics engine. we're still using physical object link numbers from seven years ago. It really doesn't make sense to be increasing the power under the hood, but keeping things so limited/
[12:29]	Charlar Linden	#8 The uploader requires that each LOD's model has the same number of faces (materials). This means some drastic optimization won't be possible or some workaround should be used, like keeping at least a few vertices for each material in the reduced models, just to preserve the face count in the upload process. Please clarify [Bunnie Mills]
[12:30]	davep (runitai.linden)	That's a good point -- we *should* be able to remove that limitation in "the future," but that's not a priority for first release
[12:30]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda)	Yellow Alloy sighs
[12:30]	davep (runitai.linden)	the mesh format actually does support empty faces, and the auto-lod generator takes advantage of that on occasion
[12:30]	Kyrah Abattoir	have a tiny triangle for each material as your "palette" :D
[12:31]	davep (runitai.linden)	just the importer needs to be made aware of it for custom LoDs
[12:31]	Dain Shan	That adds to PE of you do that
[12:31]	Charlar Linden	ok
[12:31]	Charlar Linden	#9 Can you confirm that a 64M prim used as a regular prim will be a regarded as a legacy prim? [Graham Dartmouth]
[12:31]	Bunnie Mills	thanks.
[12:32]	Kyrah Abattoir	there is a plan to change the PE of megaprims? O_o
[12:32]	Nyx Linden	the new PE calculations kick in if any prim in the object is 1) a mesh or 2) uses a non-default physics shape type. Changing size does not opt you in to the new calculations.
[12:32]	draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam)	nice
[12:32]	Kyrah Abattoir	great
[12:32]	Charlar Linden	#10 Possible bug in the importer for rigged av's. I've checked my vertex groups over and over. This seems to be an issue with the importer, and subtle too. Read jira for details. Hoping it was error on my part, but I did what I could to rule out possibilities. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/CTS-689 [Raz Welles]
[12:32]	Graham Dartmouth	good.... biiut is the prim is tortured?
[12:32]	Prep Linden	Yup, that looks like a bug - I'll look be looking at it shortly (as there is a couple like this).
[12:33]	Prep Linden	*are
[12:33]	Drongle McMahon	So don't vtry to spare the physics engine by making your twisted torus convex hull!
[12:33]	Kyrah Abattoir	this is slightly unrelated but is there any chances to .. uncap the prim sizes? working with stocks of pre made megaprims is very frustrating sometimes.
[12:33]	Nyx Linden	Graham - those are the two conditions that will opt in a linkset to the new calculations stated above.
[12:33]	Dain Shan	Graham a tortured standart prim is still a standart prim
[12:33]	Nyx Linden	Kyrah, 64m is the new limit we're rolling out. :)
[12:33]	Kyrah Abattoir	yay that should be plenty for everyone
[12:34]	Drongle McMahon	That's a firm decision?
[12:34]	Charlar Linden	yes
[12:34]	Drongle McMahon	Good, thanks.
[12:34]	Charlar Linden	Next one...
[12:35]	Charlar Linden	#11 Are the upload fees and PE costs finalized once Mesh is rolled out in the main grid RC channels? If not, is there a chance of content loss when using mesh on RC sims? [Maygray Heron]
[12:35]	davep (runitai.linden)	davep takes a deep breath.
[12:35]	Charlar Linden	We're going to avoid making tweaks which would cause content loss.
[12:35]	Charlar Linden	once we're on agni
[12:36]	Maygray Heron	good to hear :)
[12:36]	Charlar Linden	cool
[12:36]	Charlar Linden	next
[12:36]	Charlar Linden	#12 What is the LOD-Generator in the mesh-client based on? Any chance on an optional seam-preserving algorithm across all LODs? (usefull for large-scale terrains to prevent gaps between different LOD levels) [Maygray Heron]
[12:36]	davep (runitai.linden)	it's based on an old open source library called GLOD
[12:36]	davep (runitai.linden)	you can preserve seams by choosing border mode: lock
[12:37]	davep (runitai.linden)	but the decimation will be less effective
[12:37]	davep (runitai.linden)	I HIGHLY recommend generating LoDs in an external program
[12:37]	Maygray Heron	is that a client or library option?
[12:37]	Maygray Heron	oh okay
[12:38]	davep (runitai.linden)	the options in the "evel of detail" tab cover the GLOD API parameters
[12:38]	Maygray Heron	ah i see, thank you
[12:38]	davep (runitai.linden)	http://www.cs.jhu.edu/~graphics/GLOD/npp_html/glodObjectParameter.html
[12:38]	Maygray Heron	Maygray Heron will have to write a blender script for that then ;)
[12:38]	davep (runitai.linden)	http://www.cs.jhu.edu/~graphics/GLOD/npp_html/glodObjectParameter.html
[12:38]	Kyrah Abattoir	there is multures in max that does a decent job
[12:38]	Dahlia Trimble	when its showing the physics mesh, often some verts are red. What does that mean?
[12:39]	Maygray Heron	thank for the info, i guess i write my own LOD-generator then :)
[12:39]	davep (runitai.linden)	Dahlia: it means that havok can't handle those triangles because they are too thin
[12:39]	davep (runitai.linden)	so you should create a decomposition or use a different mesh
[12:39]	Nyx Linden	glod is a decent standard LOD library, but hand-made or custom LODs will always be better :)
[12:39]	Dahlia Trimble	thin? you mean the proportion is wrong?
[12:40]	davep (runitai.linden)	Dahlia: right -- havok has a curious definition of "degenerate"
[12:40]	Dahlia Trimble	ty
[12:40]	Charlar Linden	#13 What solution can be achieved to address the problems associated with creating and selling mesh clothing items since you have stated you will not develop any type of parametric deformer or cage system to compensate for different avatar sizes and shapes. Currently, clothing is almost unusable/unmarketable unless is it a complete outfit from neck to feet, or an entire avatar, which is even then very limited in adjustability. Being that clothing is one of the largest markets in SL, this would seem to be a viable issue that needs to be solved. The same problem occurred in bluemars, and was only solved with the parametric deformer system, which is similar to how clothing textures currently "shrink fit" to your shape. This would also alleviate the need for skeletal rigging, which is extremely difficult. [Maxwell Graf]
[12:40]	Nyx Linden	rigged mesh deforms is a good feature request. its not one we've had time to do for our initial release of mesh, but please be sure that its filed in JIRA for consideration in future releases :)
[12:40]	Dahlia Trimble	is there any way to allow it to upload even if they are red?
[12:41]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Deforms as in morphs?
[12:41]	Maxwell Graf	not morphs, but fit to your shape.
[12:41]	Maxwell Graf	whatever that shape is.
[12:41]	Υπατία Καλλιστώ (hypatia.callisto)	they arent morphs
[12:42]	Υπατία Καλλιστώ (hypatia.callisto)	they're parametric cages that reshape the mesh to fit the avatar
[12:42]	Tapple Gao	unrigged meshes can be resized
[12:42]	Υπατία Καλλιστώ (hypatia.callisto)	its not a resizing
[12:42]	Nyx Linden	its a good request, we just don't have time to do it on a first release, but do make sure the request is filed :)
[12:42]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	You mean LL might make a cage ala Mars?
[12:42]	Tapple Gao	which is the same as you can do with sculpty clothes
[12:42]	Υπατία Καλλιστώ (hypatia.callisto)	its a method to fit to your morphed avatar, the system is totally different from sl
[12:42]	Maxwell Graf	that was my questions.
[12:42]	Maxwell Graf	will we eventually have a solution?
[12:42]	Υπατία Καλλιστώ (hypatia.callisto)	its like a lattice
[12:42]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	I;m asking if that is what Nyx is saying
[12:43]	TheBlack Box	in "the future" yes ;)
[12:43]	Nyx Linden	I'm saying its a feature request that should be filed and we'll evaluate it in future releases to see if its something we have time to do :)
[12:43]	Maxwell Graf	would it help if I send cigars/hookers/liquor to the dev team?
[12:43]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)	Is it avatar 2.0?
[12:44]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	whahaha
[12:44]	Eliza Wierwight	yesssssh please
[12:44]	Tapple Gao	sticking 2.0 after crap doesn't explain anything
[12:44]	Charlar Linden	#14 What is the primary aim of introducing mesh, i.e. - what do you want to see us use it for? [Maxwell Graf]
[12:45]	Chiron	yes what is the point of mesh if we can't make medium and large size objects when the PE is so high
[12:45]	Maxwell Graf	please dont say "all kinds of things"
[12:45]	Tapple Gao	I think the question would better be stated "are landscapes and trees supposed to be impossible"
[12:46]	Ranya Palmer	all kinds of things lol
[12:46]	Charlar Linden	tough question to answer without falling into the trap of excluding something. Long term, just about everything. That said, this is the first release of mesh, so there will be some areas initially which you will not work so well, and we'll learn and adjust.
[12:46]	Mesh Release	htispoint is not for the first release :)
[12:46]	Cobalt Neutra	at present "everything" is too expensive.
[12:46]	Chiron	well only small things will be feasbale right now
[12:46]	Chiron	or attachments
[12:46]	Drongle McMahon	Mesh peas for Vivienne's pot.
[12:47]	Chiron	even furniture is too PE expensive
[12:47]	Vivienne Daguerre	hehehe
[12:47]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	lol
[12:47]	Maxwell Graf	back to belts and shoes.
[12:47]	Angel (angel.alphaville)	back to real life I should say
[12:47]	Charlar Linden	OK, moving on
[12:47]	Charlar Linden	#15 Is the license of the llm file of the Viewer LGPL? Or is it CC BY 3.0? [Yuzuru Jewell]
[12:48]	Chiron	mesh seems to be only usable for AV attachments where you can use a gazillion tri polys if you like and lag every sim you visit and crush the database
[12:48]	Nyx Linden	all files shipped with the viewer are LGPL unless otherwise specified, I believe, I can double check if you'd like
[12:48]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda)	I have a very relevant question when the agenda topics have been depleted
[12:48]	Nyx Linden	you can get creative commons avatar files from here: http://static-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/downloads/avatar/avatar_mesh.zip
[12:49]	Dahlia Trimble	my code that uses the llm files downloads them on the fly to avoid license issues
[12:49]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)	Does it have morph data?
[12:49]	Dahlia Trimble	since nobody really knows what the license is
[12:49]	Nyx Linden	I can ask around if we can re-release them under another license if there's a compelling use case that needs to be considered
[12:50]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)	It is important.
[12:50]	Nyx Linden	please send the details for the request to my email nyx@lindenlab.com
[12:50]	Charlar Linden	#16 Any news on pivot points? Are pivots working again? [Ashasekayi Ra]
[12:50]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)	LGPL is difficult to use it.
[12:50]	Drongle McMahon	What's a llm file?
[12:50]	Prep Linden	Pivot points won't be in release 1 but it's still on the table for a future release.
[12:51]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	oi
[12:51]	Dahlia Trimble	if someone wants to sell a modded mesh or include a morphable mesh in a closed product, the license is important. Not sure if you would consider that compelling or not
[12:51]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Ok thanks
[12:51]	davep (runitai.linden)	Drongle: it's what the avatar mesh is stored as
[12:51]	Nyx Linden	Drongle - llm is the avatar mesh files shipped with the viewer
[12:51]	Ranya Palmer	what is a pivot point?
[12:51]	Drongle McMahon	Right in the middle of the table, I suppose, Prep.
[12:51]	Maxwell Graf	are the XML file exports working again yet for avis?
[12:51]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	It's is working Max
[12:52]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	*It
[12:52]	Cobalt Neutra	a pivot point is the point around which an object pivots. the "center" if you will.
[12:52]	davep (runitai.linden)	Ranya: it's the point the mesh rotates around when you change its rotation
[12:52]	Ranya Palmer	oh ok
[12:52]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda)	with all this talk of "future releases" when it comes to mesh, I'm very worried when it comes to the track record up to this point. What kind of assurace is there that these "future releases" will actually come, and not just be lip-serviced and never actually brought about?
[12:52]	Drongle McMahon	It's also the point taht is set to the position in the edit dialog.....the origin
[12:53]	Charlar Linden	Any documentation/glossary releases for the layman yet? [Eleanora Newell]
[12:53]	Charlar Linden	that was number 17
[12:53]	Charlar Linden	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh
[12:53]	Charlar Linden	we're working on doc, some of it is out but it'll continue to grow.
[12:54]	Charlar Linden	Third party app tutorials are being written by some of the <ossm> beta users
[12:54]	Drongle McMahon	Who do we csubmit stuff to if we think it would help the documentation?
[12:54]	draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam)	theres an 18th question
[12:54]	Nyx Linden	send any specific doc requests to jeremy
[12:54]	Eleanora Newell	can we get a central location listing of tutorials by beta users?
[12:54]	Charlar Linden	we're aware
[12:55]	Charlar Linden	#18 Is anyone currently working on mesh planning to leave Linden Lab immediately after it is released? Draconis Neurocam 12:45, 11 July 2011 (PDT)
[12:55]	Charlar Linden	Really?
[12:55]	draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam)	yeah it happens
[12:55]	draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam)	i want to know
[12:55]	draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam)	i hope it doesnt but you neverk now
[12:55]	draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam)	know*
[12:55]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda)	Charlar, we've had 5 years of things being promised and not delivered...
[12:55]	Charlar Linden	We all love our work, and we love you so much we'd never leave
[12:56]	draconis.neurocam (draconis.neurocam)	good
[12:56]	Skygirl Kline	awww
[12:56]	Skygirl Kline	^^
[12:56]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda)	...and we need some kind of assurance that these "future releases" that are talked about so often actually COME
[12:56]	TheBlack Box	:))
[12:56]	Bunnie Mills	: P
[12:56]	Ranya Palmer	not buy choice
[12:56]	Ranya Palmer	by*
[12:56]	Charlar Linden	snap
[12:56]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda)	and don't languish like Estate-level Windlight
[12:56]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Is mesh live on agni yet?
[12:56]	Nyx Linden	no
[12:56]	Eleanora Newell	question submttted to agenda :)
[12:56]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	As to not getting what we want for the last 5 years... That has changed a lot in the last year.
[12:57]	Charlar Linden	OK, so that's a great way to end this meeting. Lot of good questions.
[12:57]	Angel (angel.alphaville)	hey Davep, thank you for fixing the material scrambling for LoD meshes
[12:57]	Yellow Alloy (tiberious.neruda)	so we're right to be worried
[12:57]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Thanks,
[12:57]	Charlar Linden	New
[12:57]	Vivienne Daguerre	who can ever give any assurances about anything in the future? I know I can't.
[12:57]	Charlar Linden	#19 can we get a central location listing of tutorials by beta users? [Eleanora Newell]
[12:57]	davep (runitai.linden)	Angel: you're welcome -- it was fun
[12:57]	davep (runitai.linden)	sorry that was busted for so long
[12:57]	Angel (angel.alphaville)	that fix should be more public,
[12:57]	Charlar Linden	think we're working on that - I'll double check with our Doc folks
[12:57]	Charlar Linden	It's a good idea
[12:57]	Eleanora Newell	thanks
[12:57]	Angel (angel.alphaville)	cheers Davep
[12:57]	Vivienne Daguerre	and Nalates, i agree, some good things have happened in the last year. Lag is TONS better on the main grid for one.
[12:57]	Charlar Linden	NOW, we're done.
[12:58]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	bye all
[12:58]	Nix Manx	Who do I need to speak too for some more L$ for here?
[12:58]	davep (runitai.linden)	if anyone wants to hop over to meshhq 4 for streaming cost discussion with examples, we can have that discussion now
[12:58]	Ranya Palmer	bye
[12:58]	Rusalka Writer	Aloha.
[12:58]	Eleanora Newell	see you all next week
[12:58]	Eleanora Newell	thanks, take care
[12:58]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Is the release still planned for August/?
[12:58]	davep (runitai.linden)	bring the meshes you think have a PE that's too high
[12:58]	Ranya Palmer	keep up the good work lindens
[12:59]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)	See you. I will e-mail to nyx.
[12:59]	EzY McAlpine	Please let it be August
[12:59]	EzY McAlpine	lol
[12:59]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar)	dose any one know if there is any work going on on the OS side of mesh?
[12:59]	EzY McAlpine	or earlier :P
[12:59]	Charlar Linden	Asha, our plans haven't changed.
[12:59]	TheBlack Box	thanks for the OH ... see you around

Generated by the 'Wikify SL Chat Log' utility by DG Products for Second Life (DGP4SL)

Transcript for Monday July 11, 2011

[12:06]	Nyx Linden	let's get started :)
[12:06]	Dain Shan	Beside the avatars in here? Noone *smirks*
[12:06]	Nyx Linden	first topic: "Possibility of 'cheap' meshes that have the same collisions as sculpted prims, in order to reduce their impact on the simulators. --Kyrah Abattoir 16:42, 2 July 2011 (PDT) "
[12:06]	Yellow Alloy	the sim went belly-up
[12:07]	davep	you can do that now by linking to a simple prim, making that prim the root prim of the linked set, making it invisible (100% transparent), and setting the mesh physics shape type to "none"
[12:07]	davep	"simple" here means a cube
[12:08]	Nyx Linden	or a sphere
[12:08]	Yellow Alloy	why do I get the feeling that's a garbage answer?
[12:08]	Nyx Linden	(not twisted)
[12:08]	davep	I woudln't recommend a sphere, that'll eat your geometry cost
[12:08]	Dain Shan	Moment .. err we have to add another prim for that?
[12:08]	Maxwell Graf	hey drongle.
[12:08]	Yellow Alloy	'cause of the way linking does squat to change PE weights
[12:08]	Nyx Linden	or you can upload a super-simplified physics shape with the mesh to minimize server physics load
[12:08]	Eliza Wierwight	Max ~smiles~
[12:09]	davep	let me try it...
[12:09]	Drongle McMahon	Took me 15 minutes to get in!
[12:09]	Chiron	couldn't there just be an option to turn physics off instead of adding a prims etc
[12:09]	Rusalka Writer	You missed the first crash?
[12:10]	davep	seems to work for me
[12:11]	Asha	I assume she means the the PE of this mesh would be 1 like a sculpt.... I could be wrong.
[12:11]	Nyx Linden	or use a cube mesh as the mesh's physics shape and decompose it :)
[12:11]	Kyrah Abattoir	IM LATE
[12:11]	Asha	*smacks typo demon
[12:11]	Maygray Heron	or a tetraeder since it think that is the most simple convex hull
[12:11]	davep	no, the PE will be taken from the streaming/geometry cost or the physics cost, which ever is higher
[12:11]	Chiron	Nyx - why can't there be a No Physics option ?
[12:12]	davep	so if you're bound by streaming cost, making optimal physics doesn't save you anyhthing (unfortunately)
[12:12]	Rusalka Writer	Ooooh, I'm at 0.5 fps. What happened while I was away?
[12:12]	Kyrah Abattoir	was my topic already covered?
[12:12]	Nyx Linden	every linkset in world needs a physics representation of some kind
[12:12]	Chiron	adding extra prims seems counter productive
[12:12]	davep	Rusalka: turn off VBO, there's abug in the mac viewer at the moment
[12:12]	davep	working on it
[12:12]	Asha	Yes, that is why she is asking for a new hybrid type I imagine.
[12:12]	Maxwell Graf	kyrah we just started.
[12:12]	Kyrah Abattoir	great
[12:12]	Drongle McMahon	Spheres linked to meshes are too expensive now for physics shapes.
[12:12]	Rusalka Writer	Mahalo.
[12:12]	Chiron	so will adding a No Physics , Physics prim reduce PE in large objects ?
[12:13]	Asha	Kyrah they are talking about yours now. Maybe you can explain it in more detail
[12:13]	Cobalt Neutra	if the PE cost is taken from whichever is higher, then was's the point of simplifying meshes for LOD? It's just going to use whatever will cost the most prims?
[12:13]	Rusalka Writer	Phew. Better.
[12:13]	Rusalka Writer	13.0 fps.
[12:14]	Kyrah Abattoir	Actually my idea was that since there is a big bottleneck on having the sim fetch the collision lod of the mesh if there could be a "cheap mesh" alternative where the sim treat the mesh the same way it's treating sculpts currently, so the sim doesn't actually have to load the mesh from the asset server at all.
[12:14]	Chiron	there's no incentive to create economical meshes for SL , with such high PE for mesh objects
[12:14]	Yellow Alloy	speaking of physics shapes....
[12:14]	Yellow Alloy	I have a physics shape that's intended to be like a lathed cylinder
[12:14]	davep	Kyrah: the duck is an example of how to do that -- the sim won't load the physics shape if the physics shape type is set to none
[12:14]	Yellow Alloy	how many points are necessary around the circumference to ensure it acts 'round'?
[12:15]	davep	but to do that , the mesh must be the child prim of a linked set
[12:15]	davep	it's actually just as effective to upload a cheap physics shape with the mesh
[12:15]	Charlar Linden	We've got a long way to go, so since Dave's responded to Kyrah, let's go to the next one.
[12:15]	Charlar Linden	#2 Is this the final prim equivalency accounting as it is right now, or are you still working on it? [Vivienne Daguerre]
[12:15]	Kyrah Abattoir	davep, so do those mesh with simple collision get a discount in PE cost?
[12:15]	davep	yes and no --
[12:16]	davep	the equation is pretty much done, but the budget is still up for discussion
[12:16]	davep	assuming the test plan here passes for your meshes:
[12:16]	Yuzuru	How about LL provide the dae file for simple physics?
[12:16]	Asha	It still won't be below 2 PE if it is a single mesh Kyrah.... as far as I know
[12:16]	Kyrah Abattoir	so it's still going to be 1+x rounded up even for a mesh that is only fetched clientside?
[12:16]	Drongle McMahon	Is the physics eaquation still what's in the wiki?
[12:16]	davep	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Streaming_Cost_test
[12:17]	davep	oh, I overspoke
[12:17]	davep	strreaming cost is pretty much done
[12:17]	Nyx Linden	Falcon recently updated the physics cost, but I'm not sure if its 100% up to date yet
[12:17]	davep	the overall PE is still being tweaked
[12:17]	Charlar Linden	#3 Given that people will work around the increased prim count on linking mixed tool sets by not linking them, will you reconsider taking prim and sculpt complexity into accounting on linking to mesh? I think this also breaks legacy content, sculpt tool kits for builders--windows, doors, arches, etc. These things were made to be linked to builds. If a sculpt or a prim ever counts as more than one prim, linked or not to other things, then in my opinion legacy content is broken.[Vivienne Daguerre]
[12:18]	Asha	Server cost is still being discussed?
[12:18]	Chiron	PE doesn't need to be tweaked, it needs to be bashed over the head !
[12:18]	Drongle McMahon	Davep...that wiki page still has the wrong r/d ratios.
[12:18]	Yellow Alloy	+1, Chiron
[12:18]	davep	drongle: r/d ratios?
[12:18]	Charlar Linden	Anwer to #4 - we've been taking in your feedback and discussing the issue.
[12:18]	Drongle McMahon	I think using mesh-type costs for legacy prims in a recipe for disaster.
[12:19]	Asha	agreed
[12:19]	Bunnie Mills	great, thanks
[12:19]	Charlar Linden	That's a good summary of your feedback so far Drongle
[12:19]	Charlar Linden	:-)
[12:19]	Yellow Alloy	I really think this policy of having NO legacy content broken, EVER... is kinda a bad idea
[12:19]	Charlar Linden	#5 Please provide documentation of the algorithm used for calculating mesh upload fees. This is necessary for sensible optimisation. [Drongle McMahon]
[12:19]	Cobalt Neutra	seriously, when your average user finds his prim build suddenly weighs a hundred times more than his parcel cana ctually hold, because he attached a window to it, you're going to see the pitchforks and torches come out.
[12:20]	Chiron	I'm happy with upload fees. If we pay more can we get lower PEs ?
[12:20]	Charlar Linden	Answer #5 - we're still doing major review of the upload cost.
[12:20]	Rusalka Writer	Getting your house returned to inventory in bits is a drag.
[12:20]	Charlar Linden	Once we settle it down in the next few days, we'll publish something
[12:20]	Angel	just don t publish lies
[12:20]	Angel	that mesh is for "everyone"
[12:20]	Yuzuru	So I can't make tutorial video of ROKURO..
[12:20]	Angel	with these upload costs it is not
[12:21]	Drongle McMahon	My only comment is that L$150 minimum is too high. It rules out useful small simple meshes.
[12:21]	Angel	it also rules out a very big user base
[12:21]	Chiron	PEs are the most important issue. They dictate whether mesh is usable or not. Right now most mesh objects that aren't AV based or size of a mouse are not usable and redundant
[12:21]	Yuzuru	I agreed.
[12:21]	Charlar Linden	We hear you on upload costs, we're reviewing them.
[12:21]	Nix Manx	should be a set fee like everything else
[12:21]	Angel	bigger than merchants
[12:21]	Yellow Alloy	or forces people to sell them for tons to cover the cost
[12:21]	Charlar Linden	It's not final.
[12:22]	Bunnie Mills	: )
[12:22]	Charlar Linden	#6 Which physics shape type is the physics cost shown in the uploader for, and are we going to get the option to change it? [Drongle]
[12:22]	Drongle McMahon	I'm thinking of people who are not selling them, so can't recoup.
[12:22]	Rusalka Writer	I have no problem selling things cheap, but they can't ruin my customers existing builds.
[12:22]	Nyx Linden	we show the costs for what the mesh will be costed when you first rez it
[12:22]	Cobalt Neutra	the drawbacks of using mesh currently far outweigh the benefits. I can't see the current numbers as being even remotely acceptable to the general population of builders. Mesh is on the verge of being kicked aside as an also-ran.
[12:23]	Maxwell Graf	meh-sh.
[12:23]	Nyx Linden	the server passes down more data, but we wanted to keep the display pretty simple, and not overwhelm everyone with a ton of numbers
[12:23]	Drongle McMahon	Nyx. S that's CH, but I need to know the Prim cost
[12:23]	Rusalka Writer	All I would feel comfortable selling at present is avatars.
[12:23]	Drongle McMahon	... that is the cost as physics type Prim.
[12:24]	TheBlack Box	it would be smart to keep in mind that lowering PE later on is much easier than increasing it later on ... so it makes a lot of sense to start Mesh with high PE
[12:25]	Nix Manx	not when people wont buy them
[12:25]	Chiron	there is no start to mesh with a high PE !
[12:25]	Asha	That is making the assumption that it will be lowered
[12:25]	Nix Manx	or use them
[12:25]	Yellow Alloy	and not with LL's track record when it comes to supporting released features
[12:25]	Chiron	mesh is a dead Dodo with these high PEs
[12:25]	TheBlack Box	mesh will have a start no matter the PE ... Avatars and attachments ...
[12:26]	Yellow Alloy	not when there's no bone lengths
[12:26]	Nix Manx	no doubt but with either changes to scuplties or mesh only regions, i cant really see the benefits
[12:26]	Yellow Alloy	either you model it perfectly to the standard SL skeleton, or it fouls up
[12:26]	TheBlack Box	even if Avatar bone-weight is messed up you stuill got attachments to start with
[12:26]	Nix Manx	except for avatars*
[12:26]	Dain Shan	Nope .. Because the attachments are already there as sculpts.. noone gona buy a new one if he has already a working one
[12:27]	Drongle McMahon	Everyone knows the costs are lower on the Mesh Experimental server after correction of the diameter/radius bug?
[12:27]	TheBlack Box	of they look better people will buy them
[12:27]	Maxwell Graf	i modelled this suit exactly to the default avi, and im wearing the default shape, and its completely out of whack.
[12:27]	Charlar Linden	moving on, we have a full agenda today.
[12:27]	Charlar Linden	#7 The current limitations for vehicles (32 linked parts, 32 PE, 32 physical cost) seem too tough in the PE figure to allow good detail when many rounded shapes are involved. Maybe keep the max physics cost low, but allow some overhead in the PE (even 48 would make a difference) ? [Bunnie Mills]
[12:27]	Maxwell Graf	so even that doesnt work.
[12:27]	Nyx Linden	the limitation to make an object physical or a vehicle is that only the "physics weight" needs to be 32 prims or less. You can have more than 32 prims in a linkset and make it physical as long as the overall physics weight is 32 or less
[12:27]	Tapple Gao	shouts: could you guys move closer to the border so I can hear? the sim is full
[12:27]	Bunnie Mills	ahh, that wasn't obvious : P
[12:28]	Nyx Linden	32 has always beent he limit, and we don't currently have plans to raise that limit, but with the new physics shape types you can add geometrical detail that doesn't contribute to the physics weight
[12:28]	Maygray Heron	so i can use a simple cube for the physics shape, and assign to to a vehicle mesh?
[12:28]	Bunnie Mills	more than 32 prims or PE ?
[12:28]	Nyx Linden	32 is the limit for physics weight. All the other numbers are irrelevant for if you can make it a vehicle
[12:29]	Bunnie Mills	sounds good, thanks
[12:29]	Tapple Gao	thank you
[12:29]	Cobalt Neutra	we've got a shiny new physics engine. we're still using physical object link numbers from seven years ago. It really doesn't make sense to be increasing the power under the hood, but keeping things so limited/
[12:29]	Charlar Linden	#8 The uploader requires that each LOD's model has the same number of faces (materials). This means some drastic optimization won't be possible or some workaround should be used, like keeping at least a few vertices for each material in the reduced models, just to preserve the face count in the upload process. Please clarify [Bunnie Mills]
[12:30]	davep	That's a good point -- we *should* be able to remove that limitation in "the future," but that's not a priority for first release
[12:30]	Yellow Alloy	Yellow Alloy sighs
[12:30]	davep	the mesh format actually does support empty faces, and the auto-lod generator takes advantage of that on occasion
[12:30]	Kyrah Abattoir	have a tiny triangle for each material as your "palette" :D
[12:31]	davep	just the importer needs to be made aware of it for custom LoDs
[12:31]	Dain Shan	That adds to PE of you do that
[12:31]	Charlar Linden	ok
[12:31]	Charlar Linden	#9 Can you confirm that a 64M prim used as a regular prim will be a regarded as a legacy prim? [Graham Dartmouth]
[12:31]	Bunnie Mills	thanks.
[12:32]	Kyrah Abattoir	there is a plan to change the PE of megaprims? O_o
[12:32]	Nyx Linden	the new PE calculations kick in if any prim in the object is 1) a mesh or 2) uses a non-default physics shape type. Changing size does not opt you in to the new calculations.
[12:32]	draconis.neurocam	nice
[12:32]	Kyrah Abattoir	great
[12:32]	Charlar Linden	#10 Possible bug in the importer for rigged av's. I've checked my vertex groups over and over. This seems to be an issue with the importer, and subtle too. Read jira for details. Hoping it was error on my part, but I did what I could to rule out possibilities. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/CTS-689 [Raz Welles]
[12:32]	Graham Dartmouth	good.... biiut is the prim is tortured?
[12:32]	Prep Linden	Yup, that looks like a bug - I'll look be looking at it shortly (as there is a couple like this).
[12:33]	Prep Linden	*are
[12:33]	Drongle McMahon	So don't vtry to spare the physics engine by making your twisted torus convex hull!
[12:33]	Kyrah Abattoir	this is slightly unrelated but is there any chances to .. uncap the prim sizes? working with stocks of pre made megaprims is very frustrating sometimes.
[12:33]	Nyx Linden	Graham - those are the two conditions that will opt in a linkset to the new calculations stated above.
[12:33]	Dain Shan	Graham a tortured standart prim is still a standart prim
[12:33]	Nyx Linden	Kyrah, 64m is the new limit we're rolling out. :)
[12:33]	Kyrah Abattoir	yay that should be plenty for everyone
[12:34]	Drongle McMahon	That's a firm decision?
[12:34]	Charlar Linden	yes
[12:34]	Drongle McMahon	Good, thanks.
[12:34]	Charlar Linden	Next one...
[12:35]	Charlar Linden	#11 Are the upload fees and PE costs finalized once Mesh is rolled out in the main grid RC channels? If not, is there a chance of content loss when using mesh on RC sims? [Maygray Heron]
[12:35]	davep	davep takes a deep breath.
[12:35]	Charlar Linden	We're going to avoid making tweaks which would cause content loss.
[12:35]	Charlar Linden	once we're on agni
[12:36]	Maygray Heron	good to hear :)
[12:36]	Charlar Linden	cool
[12:36]	Charlar Linden	next
[12:36]	Charlar Linden	#12 What is the LOD-Generator in the mesh-client based on? Any chance on an optional seam-preserving algorithm across all LODs? (usefull for large-scale terrains to prevent gaps between different LOD levels) [Maygray Heron]
[12:36]	davep	it's based on an old open source library called GLOD
[12:36]	davep	you can preserve seams by choosing border mode: lock
[12:37]	davep	but the decimation will be less effective
[12:37]	davep	I HIGHLY recommend generating LoDs in an external program
[12:37]	Maygray Heron	is that a client or library option?
[12:37]	Maygray Heron	oh okay
[12:38]	davep	the options in the "evel of detail" tab cover the GLOD API parameters
[12:38]	Maygray Heron	ah i see, thank you
[12:38]	davep	http://www.cs.jhu.edu/~graphics/GLOD/npp_html/glodObjectParameter.html
[12:38]	Maygray Heron	Maygray Heron will have to write a blender script for that then ;)
[12:38]	davep	http://www.cs.jhu.edu/~graphics/GLOD/npp_html/glodObjectParameter.html
[12:38]	Kyrah Abattoir	there is multures in max that does a decent job
[12:38]	Dahlia Trimble	when its showing the physics mesh, often some verts are red. What does that mean?
[12:39]	Maygray Heron	thank for the info, i guess i write my own LOD-generator then :)
[12:39]	davep	Dahlia: it means that havok can't handle those triangles because they are too thin
[12:39]	davep	so you should create a decomposition or use a different mesh
[12:39]	Nyx Linden	glod is a decent standard LOD library, but hand-made or custom LODs will always be better :)
[12:39]	Dahlia Trimble	thin? you mean the proportion is wrong?
[12:40]	davep	Dahlia: right -- havok has a curious definition of "degenerate"
[12:40]	Dahlia Trimble	ty
[12:40]	Charlar Linden	#13 What solution can be achieved to address the problems associated with creating and selling mesh clothing items since you have stated you will not develop any type of parametric deformer or cage system to compensate for different avatar sizes and shapes. Currently, clothing is almost unusable/unmarketable unless is it a complete outfit from neck to feet, or an entire avatar, which is even then very limited in adjustability. Being that clothing is one of the largest markets in SL, this would seem to be a viable issue that needs to be solved. The same problem occurred in bluemars, and was only solved with the parametric deformer system, which is similar to how clothing textures currently "shrink fit" to your shape. This would also alleviate the need for skeletal rigging, which is extremely difficult. [Maxwell Graf]
[12:40]	Nyx Linden	rigged mesh deforms is a good feature request. its not one we've had time to do for our initial release of mesh, but please be sure that its filed in JIRA for consideration in future releases :)
[12:40]	Dahlia Trimble	is there any way to allow it to upload even if they are red?
[12:41]	Asha	Deforms as in morphs?
[12:41]	Maxwell Graf	not morphs, but fit to your shape.
[12:41]	Maxwell Graf	whatever that shape is.
[12:41]	Υπατία Καλλιστώ	they arent morphs
[12:42]	Υπατία Καλλιστώ	they're parametric cages that reshape the mesh to fit the avatar
[12:42]	Tapple Gao	unrigged meshes can be resized
[12:42]	Υπατία Καλλιστώ	its not a resizing
[12:42]	Nyx Linden	its a good request, we just don't have time to do it on a first release, but do make sure the request is filed :)
[12:42]	Asha	You mean LL might make a cage ala Mars?
[12:42]	Tapple Gao	which is the same as you can do with sculpty clothes
[12:42]	Υπατία Καλλιστώ	its a method to fit to your morphed avatar, the system is totally different from sl
[12:42]	Maxwell Graf	that was my questions.
[12:42]	Maxwell Graf	will we eventually have a solution?
[12:42]	Υπατία Καλλιστώ	its like a lattice
[12:42]	Asha	I;m asking if that is what Nyx is saying
[12:43]	TheBlack Box	in "the future" yes ;)
[12:43]	Nyx Linden	I'm saying its a feature request that should be filed and we'll evaluate it in future releases to see if its something we have time to do :)
[12:43]	Maxwell Graf	would it help if I send cigars/hookers/liquor to the dev team?
[12:43]	Yuzuru	Is it avatar 2.0?
[12:44]	Asha	whahaha
[12:44]	Eliza Wierwight	yesssssh please
[12:44]	Tapple Gao	sticking 2.0 after crap doesn't explain anything
[12:44]	Charlar Linden	#14 What is the primary aim of introducing mesh, i.e. - what do you want to see us use it for? [Maxwell Graf]
[12:45]	Chiron	yes what is the point of mesh if we can't make medium and large size objects when the PE is so high
[12:45]	Maxwell Graf	please dont say "all kinds of things"
[12:45]	Tapple Gao	I think the question would better be stated "are landscapes and trees supposed to be impossible"
[12:46]	Ranya Palmer	all kinds of things lol
[12:46]	Charlar Linden	tough question to answer without falling into the trap of excluding something. Long term, just about everything. That said, this is the first release of mesh, so there will be some areas initially which you will not work so well, and we'll learn and adjust.
[12:46]	Mesh Release	htispoint is not for the first release :)
[12:46]	Cobalt Neutra	at present "everything" is too expensive.
[12:46]	Chiron	well only small things will be feasbale right now
[12:46]	Chiron	or attachments
[12:46]	Drongle McMahon	Mesh peas for Vivienne's pot.
[12:47]	Chiron	even furniture is too PE expensive
[12:47]	Vivienne Daguerre	hehehe
[12:47]	Asha	lol
[12:47]	Maxwell Graf	back to belts and shoes.
[12:47]	Angel	back to real life I should say
[12:47]	Charlar Linden	OK, moving on
[12:47]	Charlar Linden	#15 Is the license of the llm file of the Viewer LGPL? Or is it CC BY 3.0? [Yuzuru Jewell]
[12:48]	Chiron	mesh seems to be only usable for AV attachments where you can use a gazillion tri polys if you like and lag every sim you visit and crush the database
[12:48]	Nyx Linden	all files shipped with the viewer are LGPL unless otherwise specified, I believe, I can double check if you'd like
[12:48]	Yellow Alloy	I have a very relevant question when the agenda topics have been depleted
[12:48]	Nyx Linden	you can get creative commons avatar files from here: http://static-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/downloads/avatar/avatar_mesh.zip
[12:49]	Dahlia Trimble	my code that uses the llm files downloads them on the fly to avoid license issues
[12:49]	Yuzuru	Does it have morph data?
[12:49]	Dahlia Trimble	since nobody really knows what the license is
[12:49]	Nyx Linden	I can ask around if we can re-release them under another license if there's a compelling use case that needs to be considered
[12:50]	Yuzuru	It is important.
[12:50]	Nyx Linden	please send the details for the request to my email nyx@lindenlab.com
[12:50]	Charlar Linden	#16 Any news on pivot points? Are pivots working again? [Ashasekayi Ra]
[12:50]	Yuzuru	LGPL is difficult to use it.
[12:50]	Drongle McMahon	What's a llm file?
[12:50]	Prep Linden	Pivot points won't be in release 1 but it's still on the table for a future release.
[12:51]	Asha	oi
[12:51]	Dahlia Trimble	if someone wants to sell a modded mesh or include a morphable mesh in a closed product, the license is important. Not sure if you would consider that compelling or not
[12:51]	Asha	Ok thanks
[12:51]	davep	Drongle: it's what the avatar mesh is stored as
[12:51]	Nyx Linden	Drongle - llm is the avatar mesh files shipped with the viewer
[12:51]	Ranya Palmer	what is a pivot point?
[12:51]	Drongle McMahon	Right in the middle of the table, I suppose, Prep.
[12:51]	Maxwell Graf	are the XML file exports working again yet for avis?
[12:51]	Asha	It's is working Max
[12:52]	Asha	*It
[12:52]	Cobalt Neutra	a pivot point is the point around which an object pivots. the "center" if you will.
[12:52]	davep	Ranya: it's the point the mesh rotates around when you change its rotation
[12:52]	Ranya Palmer	oh ok
[12:52]	Yellow Alloy	with all this talk of "future releases" when it comes to mesh, I'm very worried when it comes to the track record up to this point. What kind of assurace is there that these "future releases" will actually come, and not just be lip-serviced and never actually brought about?
[12:52]	Drongle McMahon	It's also the point taht is set to the position in the edit dialog.....the origin
[12:53]	Charlar Linden	Any documentation/glossary releases for the layman yet? [Eleanora Newell]
[12:53]	Charlar Linden	that was number 17
[12:53]	Charlar Linden	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh
[12:53]	Charlar Linden	we're working on doc, some of it is out but it'll continue to grow.
[12:54]	Charlar Linden	Third party app tutorials are being written by some of the <ossm> beta users
[12:54]	Drongle McMahon	Who do we csubmit stuff to if we think it would help the documentation?
[12:54]	draconis.neurocam	theres an 18th question
[12:54]	Nyx Linden	send any specific doc requests to jeremy
[12:54]	Eleanora Newell	can we get a central location listing of tutorials by beta users?
[12:54]	Charlar Linden	we're aware
[12:55]	Charlar Linden	#18 Is anyone currently working on mesh planning to leave Linden Lab immediately after it is released? Draconis Neurocam 12:45, 11 July 2011 (PDT)
[12:55]	Charlar Linden	Really?
[12:55]	draconis.neurocam	yeah it happens
[12:55]	draconis.neurocam	i want to know
[12:55]	draconis.neurocam	i hope it doesnt but you neverk now
[12:55]	draconis.neurocam	know*
[12:55]	Yellow Alloy	Charlar, we've had 5 years of things being promised and not delivered...
[12:55]	Charlar Linden	We all love our work, and we love you so much we'd never leave
[12:56]	draconis.neurocam	good
[12:56]	Skygirl Kline	awww
[12:56]	Skygirl Kline	^^
[12:56]	Yellow Alloy	...and we need some kind of assurance that these "future releases" that are talked about so often actually COME
[12:56]	TheBlack Box	:))
[12:56]	Bunnie Mills	: P
[12:56]	Ranya Palmer	not buy choice
[12:56]	Ranya Palmer	by*
[12:56]	Charlar Linden	snap
[12:56]	Yellow Alloy	and don't languish like Estate-level Windlight
[12:56]	Asha	Is mesh live on agni yet?
[12:56]	Nyx Linden	no
[12:56]	Eleanora Newell	question submttted to agenda :)
[12:56]	Nal	As to not getting what we want for the last 5 years... That has changed a lot in the last year.
[12:57]	Charlar Linden	OK, so that's a great way to end this meeting. Lot of good questions.
[12:57]	Angel	hey Davep, thank you for fixing the material scrambling for LoD meshes
[12:57]	Yellow Alloy	so we're right to be worried
[12:57]	Asha	Thanks,
[12:57]	Charlar Linden	New
[12:57]	Vivienne Daguerre	who can ever give any assurances about anything in the future? I know I can't.
[12:57]	Charlar Linden	#19 can we get a central location listing of tutorials by beta users? [Eleanora Newell]
[12:57]	davep	Angel: you're welcome -- it was fun
[12:57]	davep	sorry that was busted for so long
[12:57]	Angel	that fix should be more public,
[12:57]	Charlar Linden	think we're working on that - I'll double check with our Doc folks
[12:57]	Charlar Linden	It's a good idea
[12:57]	Eleanora Newell	thanks
[12:57]	Angel	cheers Davep
[12:57]	Vivienne Daguerre	and Nalates, i agree, some good things have happened in the last year. Lag is TONS better on the main grid for one.
[12:57]	Charlar Linden	NOW, we're done.
[12:58]	Nal	bye all
[12:58]	Nix Manx	Who do I need to speak too for some more L$ for here?
[12:58]	davep	if anyone wants to hop over to meshhq 4 for streaming cost discussion with examples, we can have that discussion now
[12:58]	Ranya Palmer	bye
[12:58]	Rusalka Writer	Aloha.
[12:58]	Eleanora Newell	see you all next week
[12:58]	Eleanora Newell	thanks, take care
[12:58]	Asha	Is the release still planned for August/?
[12:58]	davep	bring the meshes you think have a PE that's too high
[12:58]	Ranya Palmer	keep up the good work lindens
[12:59]	Yuzuru	See you. I will e-mail to nyx.
[12:59]	EzY McAlpine	Please let it be August
[12:59]	EzY McAlpine	lol
[12:59]	Wolfpup	dose any one know if there is any work going on on the OS side of mesh?
[12:59]	EzY McAlpine	or earlier :P
[12:59]	Charlar Linden	Asha, our plans haven't changed.
[12:59]	TheBlack Box	thanks for the OH ... see you around

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