User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2007 10 04

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[8:01]	Vincent Nacon:	heya Andrew
[8:01]	Ryozu Kojima:	Oh, Hey!
[8:01]	Andrew Linden:	Hello
[8:01]	Andrew Linden:	what? no chairs?
[8:01]	Andrew Linden:	heh, where did the chairs come fromlast time?
[8:01]	Ryozu Kojima:	Hehe, no idea, but they were nice
[8:01]	Vincent Nacon:	was just wondering why there's one today since there wasn't any update
[8:02]	Vincent Nacon:	ahh I made them
[8:02]	Vincent Nacon:	can rez them again
[8:02]	Ryozu Kojima:	When you gonna sell them again?
[8:02]	Andrew Linden:	why there is "one" today?
[8:02]	Andrew Linden:	you mean... an office hour?
[8:02]	Vincent Nacon:	yeah
[8:02]	Wolfhaven Teleportation HUD v2.0 Ready
[8:02]	Andrew Linden:	well, I scheduled two office hours
[8:02]	Ryozu Kojima:	Well, even without an update, I'd still have questions
[8:02]	Ryozu Kojima:	Heya Kitto
[8:02]	Kitto Flora:	Hello
[8:03]	Vincent Nacon:	heya
[8:03]	Andrew Linden:	one that was west cost friendly, and one that was euro friendly
[8:03]	Kitto Flora:	Oh
[8:03]	Vincent Nacon:	but this one is....?
[8:03]	Kitto Flora:	Which is which :)
[8:03]	Ryozu Kojima laughs.
[8:03]	Vincent Nacon:	it's same hour as Monday's
[8:03]	Ryozu Kojima:	Keep in mind, SL time is West Coast time, he's actually -in the office- right now
[8:03]	Vincent Nacon:	muhahahaha!
[8:03]	Andrew Linden:	this one was supposed to be euro friendly -- not in the early morning
[8:03]	Andrew Linden:	or the middle of the night
[8:03]	Ryozu Kojima:	And so are a lot of other techies
[8:03]	Kitto Flora:	4pm may be a bit early
[8:04]	Vincent Nacon:	it's middle of the night for them now
[8:04]	Kitto Flora:	for UK
[8:04]	Ryozu Kojima shrugs.
[8:04]	Vincent Nacon:	it's 3am for them right now
[8:04]	Andrew Linden:	no... it is afternoon in the UK
[8:04]	Andrew Linden:	yeah
[8:04]	Vincent Nacon:	oh wait
[8:04]	Vincent Nacon:	3pm
[8:04]	Vincent Nacon:	wait..
[8:04]	Andrew Linden:	well you're right... there has not been an update to the preview
[8:04]	Vincent Nacon:	damnit.... timezone really screwed me up
[8:05]	Ryozu Kojima laughs.
[8:05]	Andrew Linden:	I wanted to get one out yesterday, but didn't make it
[8:05]	Ryozu Kojima:	I don't mind
[8:05]	Ryozu Kojima:	More stuff fixed, more stuff to test ;)
[8:05]	Andrew Linden:	some things were fixed:
[8:05]	Andrew Linden:	lemme check my notes...
[8:06]	Kitto Flora:	Yeah - goody - what been fixed - and is the fix deployed yet
[8:06]	Andrew Linden:	SVC-752 (attachment positions/rotations not stored) has been fixed
[8:06]	Kitto Flora:	I like the ground textures for H1
[8:06]	Vincent Nacon:	ah ok
[8:06]	Ryozu Kojima:	One question I do have. Will you announe when there is an update? Will it be on the wiki or login screen?
[8:06]	Andrew Linden:	SVC-759 (llStopMoveToTarget() does not activate obejct) has been fixed
[8:06]	Vincent Nacon:	let me rez out those chairs
[8:07]	Jamaica Noel:	am i interrupting
[8:07]	Ryozu Kojima:	Not at all!
[8:07]	Andrew Linden:	somewhere I've got one of those dynamically changing sized tables...
[8:07]	Andrew Linden:	but it would take me forever to find it
[8:07]	Jamaica Noel:	shall i leave
[8:07]	Vincent Nacon:	naa it's free for all
[8:07]	Ryozu Kojima:	We're talking about the Physics engine in SL Jamaica, feel free to join in if you have any opinions
[8:07]	Andrew Linden:	welcome
[8:08]	Jamaica Noel:	ty
[8:08]	Andrew Linden:	lessee... what else is new...
[8:08]	Andrew Linden:	I did some work on getting avatars to sit better... still not perfect, but solved a few problems
[8:08]	Andrew Linden:	that will go out in the next preview update
[8:09]	Andrew Linden:	also... Dan Linden and I redesigned the linkability rules again
[8:09]	Andrew Linden:	so there will be some significant changes there
[8:09]	Vincent Nacon:	in what way?
[8:09]	Andrew Linden:	he felt that the link distances were too big
[8:09]	Andrew Linden:	so we came up with something closer to the original
[8:10]	Andrew Linden:	these rules will be documented in the public wiki
[8:10]	Vincent Nacon:	so they're smaller than 40m?
[8:10]	Ryozu Kojima:	No one would mind bigger link distances :)
[8:10]	Vincent Nacon:	aye
[8:10]	Andrew Linden:	and the algorthm's code will be in the open source section of our code
[8:10]	Vincent Nacon:	think of the house
[8:10]	Vincent Nacon:	ah hmm
[8:10]	Ryozu Kojima:	That's good to know =)
[8:10]	Andrew Linden:	The new rules will be a little more lenient than the current Havok1 rules
[8:11]	Andrew Linden:	but not so big as the current rules in the Havok4 preview
[8:11]	Andrew Linden:	the total "span" of an object will be about 60 meters
[8:11]	Vincent Nacon:	ah perfect
[8:11]	Ryozu Kojima:	That does sound about right
[8:11]	Andrew Linden:	that is... the total bounding sphere of an object will be limited to about 60 meters
[8:11]	Vincent Nacon:	but really... it'll be 70m cause of the center's offset ;)
[8:11]	Andrew Linden:	collections that poke out of that bounding sphere cannot be linked
[8:12]	Ryozu Kojima:	So
[8:12]	Ryozu Kojima:	Can we talk you into giving us a 60m mega prim sphere to work with? XD
[8:12]	Vincent Nacon:	muhahahaha!
[8:12]	Tmyclyk Dmytryk:	is that calculated from centers still, or edges?
[8:12]	Ryozu Kojima:	Just kiddin ;)
[8:12]	Tmyclyk Dmytryk:	haha ryo
[8:12]	Vincent Nacon:	why kid?
[8:12]	Andrew Linden:	no... 60 meter span -- the newest algorithm will be measuring from outside edge to opposite outside edge
[8:13]	Ryozu Kojima:	I'll just use a shapemaker to build a 60m sphere out of however many prims it feels like using
[8:13]	Tmyclyk Dmytryk:	ah ok, whereas previously it measured center iirc
[8:13]	Clubbinfreak05 Rosca:	Hey people
[8:13]	Vincent Nacon:	what about max volume?
[8:13]	Ryozu Kojima:	That way,when I'm done buidling, I just turn it phys and temp and watch it all fall down =D
[8:13]	Tmyclyk Dmytryk:	lol
[8:13]	Andrew Linden:	there is a link bug... I can't recall the public jira number... but linking two objects can scramble the transforms of the pieces
[8:13]	Ryozu Kojima:	Yep
[8:13]	Andrew Linden:	I want to fix that before we update the preview
[8:14]	Ryozu Kojima:	Wait, Transforms? (Rotations?)
[8:14]	Andrew Linden:	but hopefully today
[8:14]	Andrew Linden:	yeah... Transform = position + rotation
[8:14]	Vincent Nacon:	figured it was a lag issue
[8:14]	Andrew Linden:	no it isn't lag
[8:14]	Ryozu Kojima thought transforms = just positional data: Ahh, =D
[8:14]	Ryozu Kojima:	Vince: Have you watched my video on it? Repro is totally reliable
[8:15]	Vincent Nacon:	not yet
[8:15]	Andrew Linden:	Ryozu, thank you for that youtube video. It showed the bug perfectly.
[8:15]	Ryozu Kojima:	No problem, I'm here to help ;)
[8:15]	Andrew Linden:	I also found the "simulated griefer attack" video on youtube immediately afterward
[8:15]	Andrew Linden:	that was funny
[8:15]	Ryozu Kojima:	Speaking of, I'm sorry about Jira. You were right with the llMoveToTarget issue, seperate issues, seperate issues.
[8:15]	Ryozu Kojima:	Hehe
[8:15]	Vincent Nacon:	muhahahaha!
[8:16]	Andrew Linden:	I think that is all of the updates I had
[8:16]	Ryozu Kojima:	Turns out nearly all calls do not "Activate" an avatar
[8:16]	Ryozu Kojima:	Scripted physics calls, that is
[8:16]	Andrew Linden:	I'm going to meet with a Havok engineer today later
[8:16]	Andrew Linden:	there are three bugs in the Havok API that are causing me some problems
[8:16]	Kitto Flora:	Any clues on the Car over Prim problem?
[8:17]	Vincent Nacon:	one thing.... you know Les White?
[8:17]	Tmyclyk Dmytryk:	I heard that Megaprims aren't an issue in havok4, where as havok1 + megaprim that has collisions can cause issues, is this true?
[8:17]	Andrew Linden:	Car over prim problem? I'm unfamiliar with that.
[8:17]	Kitto Flora:	Dan assigned it a number in Jira
[8:17]	Kitto Flora:	When vehicle car code is driven over a prim the linear motor quits working
[8:17]	Kitto Flora:	affects all cars and sleds.
[8:18]	Vincent Nacon:	are you sure you weren't using the kart?
[8:18]	Andrew Linden:	No I wasn't aware of that. I'll fix that today.
[8:18]	Tmyclyk Dmytryk:	looks like SVC-756
[8:18]	Kitto Flora:	That is wil the library cart.
[8:18]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, the Kart has special code that checks its height above the terrain
[8:18]	Andrew Linden:	and disables the motor if you're too high
[8:18]	Kitto Flora:	Thats is SVC-756
[8:18]	Vincent Nacon:	eyah
[8:18]	Vincent Nacon:	yeah*
[8:19]	Kitto Flora:	Well, is 0.5M too high?
[8:19]	Andrew Linden:	I don't remember the value used in the script.
[8:19]	Kitto Flora:	Anyways my trains dont check such a thing. They stop too
[8:19]	Kitto Flora:	an the monorail
[8:19]	Kitto Flora:	and anothe rcar
[8:20]	Andrew Linden:	ok, I'll look into that vehicle problem. I don't think it is a difficult thing to fix.
[8:20]	Ryozu Kojima:	Perhaps the library needs a very basic car for testing
[8:20]	Andrew Linden:	As to the megaprim question...
[8:20]	Kitto Flora:	Oh - and its not energy running out. I checkd that. Energy sits a t 1.0
[8:20]	Andrew Linden:	theoretically megaprims do cause a problem in Havok1
[8:20]	Tmyclyk Dmytryk:	looks like the minicart disables it's engine at 0.8 meters off of the ground
[8:21]	Kitto Flora:	Megaprims make a collision problem nerby - has bitten several train users in H1
[8:21]	Andrew Linden:	they have a very large Axis Aligned Bounding Box (AABB) which is used in the broadphase collision tests
[8:21]	Vincent Nacon:	not a whole lot though... Les has a racing track at Mooz and he use mega prim 256x256x1 to make the track smoother
[8:21]	Andrew Linden:	which generates a big list of objects that have to go through the narrowphase tests (more expensive)
[8:21]	Andrew Linden:	theoretically they can also cause performance issues in havok4
[8:22]	Vincent Nacon:	that's an old bike
[8:22]	Ryozu Kojima:	Mooz
[8:22]	Andrew Linden:	Havok4 uses "simulation islands" as a meta broadphase step
[8:22]	Andrew Linden:	so they can cull the broadphase checks a lot
[8:22]	Ryozu Kojima:	I haven't been back there since he decided to ban my friend for not taking off every single scripted attachment fast enough
[8:22]	Vincent Nacon:	heheh
[8:22]	Andrew Linden:	a megaprim will tend to collapse all of the world's simulation islands into one
[8:22]	Vincent Nacon:	sorry but that's the rule we enforces
[8:23]	Andrew Linden:	which makes Havok4 operate in a Havok1 mode -- one big simulation island for the broadphase
[8:23]	Andrew Linden:	this is all theoretical, I haven't played with megaprims to actually observe the load differences
[8:24]	Andrew Linden:	in any case... in Havok4 you'll be able to link things up to 60 meters from outside edge to outside edge
[8:24]	Ryozu Kojima:	Rules are fine, but Les was a jerk =P
[8:24]	Vincent Nacon:	there are few times where the "bounding box" should be there all the time.... tend to slip in through
[8:24]	Tmyclyk Dmytryk:	I ask primarily because they've always been a hot topic.. Whether or not their impact is severe and whether or not they should stay/go
[8:24]	Andrew Linden:	such an object is equivalent to a 60 meter megaprim as far as simulation island collapse
[8:24]	Tmyclyk Dmytryk:	ok
[8:24]	shanxtc Bade:	is this alcohol annomous
[8:25]	Vincent Nacon:	no
[8:25]	Ryozu Kojima:	Ah
[8:25]	shanxtc Bade:	ok
[8:25]	Ryozu Kojima laughs.
[8:25]	Kitto Flora:	What about the notification method for when the sim update rolls out?
[8:25]	shanxtc Bade:	maybe yous just havnt realized it yet
[8:25]	Andrew Linden:	? Notification method when the sim update rolls out?
[8:25]	shanxtc Bade:	achnoledgement is the first step
[8:25]	Ryozu Kojima:	Ah, yeah. I have no idea how to tell if the update has rolled out
[8:25]	Vincent Nacon:	Shan... this is a havok 4 physic meeting for SL
[8:26]	Kitto Flora:	How do we getr to find out when you update the sims with new H4 stuffs?
[8:26]	Vincent Nacon:	a blog?
[8:26]	Andrew Linden:	Ah. I think we would post to the blog when we update.
[8:26]	Ryozu Kojima:	Cool
[8:26]	Vincent Nacon:	well I've gave Les White the log on Wednesday's meeting and he felt that youre missing out the whole picture what I was suggesting about the wheels and joints
[8:26]	Kitto Flora:	Gerat! A post on the general blog is best!
[8:26]	Ryozu Kojima:	Just gotta know when it's time to run the full suite of bug tests again ;
[8:26]	Ryozu Kojima:	;)
[8:26]	Andrew Linden:	It would be nice to provide some in-world way to query the version of the simulator though.
[8:27]	Ludovico Pizzicato shouts: help
[8:27]	Kitto Flora:	Blog is faster to load :)
[8:27]	Ryozu Kojima:	I doubt he's missing out. More like: Let's make thing work right first.
[8:27]	Tmyclyk Dmytryk:	haha indeed Andrew
[8:27]	Ryozu Kojima:	Andrew: There kind of is? Help->About SL
[8:27]	Ryozu Kojima:	Second Life Server 1.18.3.70368
[8:27]	Andrew Linden:	right... what info does it have?
[8:27]	Kitto Flora:	Thats aclient number
[8:28]	Tmyclyk Dmytryk:	i wasn't sure if that had been the interface with the client or what
[8:28]	Ryozu Kojima:	That's not the client, the client is 1.18.3.5
[8:28]	Ryozu Kojima:	Second Life 1.18.3 (5) Sep 20 2007 11:41:23 (Second Life Release Candidate)
[8:28]	Andrew Linden:	It shows some info about the simulator -- the host and process id
[8:29]	Tmyclyk Dmytryk:	It'd be interesting for a timeline of server versions in that case. When which version is released, due to the het grid implementation
[8:29]	Vincent Nacon:	You are at 262510.0, 257441.5, 25.3 in Brampton located at sim4968.agni.lindenlab.com (64.129.47.222:13005) Second Life Server 1.18.3.70368
[8:29]	Andrew Linden:	er no... that is the IP address and port#
[8:29]	Vincent Nacon:	that's the version on the server currently
[8:29]	Ryozu Kojima:	Bleah: Packets Lost: 48/68465 (0.1%)
[8:29]	Andrew Linden:	yes, once Het-Grid is working we'll need some way for people to query which version of the simulator they are running
[8:30]	Kitto Flora:	that 700368 is funny
[8:30]	Tmyclyk Dmytryk:	Packets Lost: 529/1017248 (0.1%)
[8:30]	Kitto Flora:	Says its Server, looks like client
[8:30]	Andrew Linden:	btw, Havok4 is going to be the first test of HetGrid simulators
[8:30]	Ryozu Kojima:	Well
[8:30]	Ryozu Kojima:	So far, it's pretty busted
[8:30]	Tmyclyk Dmytryk:	Sounds awesome, Andrew
[8:30]	Vincent Nacon:	what about mono?
[8:30]	Ryozu Kojima:	I can't change regions into a havok1 region without busting my attachments
[8:30]	Andrew Linden:	we've had requests from Estate owners to please bring their regions up on the Havok4 preview grid
[8:31]	Andrew Linden:	unfortunately, we don't have enough hosts in the preview to support all of the requests
[8:31]	Ryozu Kojima:	Needs more machines =)
[8:31]	Ryozu Kojima:	Also, vespian gass
[8:32]	Andrew Linden:	I'm thinking we'll probably should roll Havok4 out to SecondLife proper for those Estate owners who want to play with it in private... once it is stable enough to do so
[8:32]	Vincent Nacon:	sound reasonable
[8:32]	Andrew Linden:	but I haven't bounced this idea off of anyone else in LL yet
[8:32]	Tmyclyk Dmytryk:	will there be a havok 4 sandbox?
[8:32]	Tmyclyk Dmytryk:	would seem to be the best place to start out
[8:32]	Andrew Linden:	I think we should have a Havok4 sandbox in SecondLife proper as soon as we can
[8:32]	Andrew Linden:	as to the Mono question...
[8:32]	Vincent Nacon:	in no script zone
[8:32]	Ryozu Kojima:	Not too soon though
[8:33]	Andrew Linden:	I've seen updates go by my email inbox about testing going on
[8:33]	Vincent Nacon:	shouldn't they be going along with Havok4? due to LSL issue with physic?
[8:33]	Andrew Linden:	it is right behind Havok4, but don't know what kinds of bugs they're encountering
[8:33]	Vincent Nacon:	ah ok
[8:33]	Ryozu Kojima:	Nope
[8:34]	Ryozu Kojima:	Trying to do it at the same time could be disasterous, too much in the mix
[8:34]	Tmyclyk Dmytryk:	One variable at a time, 2 and you don't know what broke what!
[8:34]	Andrew Linden:	it is close enough to Havok4 that I'm considering them competition -- mostly to motivate myself to "get it out first (soon)"
[8:34]	Ryozu Kojima:	=D
[8:34]	Vincent Nacon:	I guess once all the bugs in havok 4 is sorted out, would be easier to find bugs that might be from mono itself
[8:34]	Ryozu Kojima:	Right
[8:35]	Andrew Linden:	I've heard about the Havok1->Havok4 attachment problem on region crossings
[8:35]	Ryozu Kojima:	Right now, there's issues with the physics LSL functions and vehicles. It'd be hard to pinpoint if they were in thephysics engine, in Mono, or some blend of the two.
[8:35]	Andrew Linden:	I haven't been able to look into that yet
[8:35]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, well they are testing mono outside of Havok4
[8:35]	Vincent Nacon:	yeah, some time unable to dettact or script running at all
[8:35]	Kitto Flora:	Scripts in attachments eem to permanently break on region crossing
[8:35]	Andrew Linden:	hopefully I'll resolve all those vehicle and LSL call bugs
[8:35]	Kitto Flora:	H1 - H4
[8:36]	Andrew Linden:	and not see them prop back up with MONO
[8:36]	Ryozu Kojima:	Well, not permanantly. Just until relog
[8:36]	Kitto Flora:	Yeah
[8:36]	Kitto Flora:	Relog fixes all
[8:36]	Kitto Flora:	Also seems system may forget you *have* the attachment
[8:36]	Kitto Flora:	And then theres the old attachmets shift around
[8:36]	Andrew Linden:	Relog rebuilds the scripts/objects/ and LSL actions (hover, buoyancy, vehicle, etc)
[8:37]	Ryozu Kojima:	Did you get my jira update about the two videos concerning llMoveToTarget, Andrew?
[8:37]	Andrew Linden:	the shifting attachment problem I may have fixed already... I did fix SVC-752
[8:37]	Andrew Linden:	no Ryozu, I did not see the update yet.
[8:37]	Andrew Linden:	the overshoot problem was your avatar, right?
[8:38]	Ryozu Kojima:	Yes
[8:38]	Andrew Linden:	ok that is a clue to look at
[8:38]	Ryozu Kojima:	The videos were both an avatar, -and- an object with the same script, with 1m offset on the X axii
[8:38]	Andrew Linden:	the MoveTo is "fighting" with the avatar controller which also pushes the avatar around
[8:38]	Ryozu Kojima:	I think it just means llMoveToTarget's damping and power values aren't tuned right
[8:38]	Ryozu Kojima:	Ah, but mine's just a theory =D
[8:38]	Andrew Linden:	when both of them apply impulses to the avatar the behavior is a little weird
[8:39]	Andrew Linden:	No, the damping is right for the MoveTo, I checked that already
[8:39]	Ryozu Kojima:	Ah
[8:39]	Ryozu Kojima:	Cool
[8:39]	Andrew Linden:	but in combination with the avatar pushes it does odd stuff
[8:39]	Kitto Flora:	I tried the Swan Ride running across H4/H4 border and it did seem to work OK. its H4/H1 border that stops scripts I think
[8:39]	Andrew Linden:	I haven't looked into it mor than that
[8:40]	Andrew Linden:	ok, H4 --> H1, got it
[8:40]	Ryozu Kojima nods.
[8:40]	Andrew Linden:	what do you guys think about limiting total number of dynamic objects in a region?
[8:40]	Kitto Flora:	Whats a dynamic object?
[8:40]	Ryozu Kojima:	Well
[8:40]	Andrew Linden:	Havok4 is faster... but you can always overload it by creating 10x 100x 1000x objects
[8:41]	Tmyclyk Dmytryk:	I think on ML it'd be very useful and Private Estates should have a Estate Owner option for it
[8:41]	Andrew Linden:	"dynamic" is my term for the [x] physical checkbox
[8:41]	Kitto Flora:	A prim or a link set
[8:41]	Kitto Flora:	?
[8:41]	Ryozu Kojima:	I think if a sim is empty, and they want a few thousand physical prims, it shouldn't matter too much.
[8:41]	Andrew Linden does not like the term "physical" used in that way
[8:41]	Kitto Flora:	IE 30 prims linked and physical = ONE dynamic object or 30?
[8:42]	Andrew Linden:	I'm talking about limiting total number of dynamic objects (not prims)
[8:42]	Kitto Flora:	Sounds good to me
[8:42]	Andrew Linden:	that is... do we really need to support a pile of 500 dynamic objects?
[8:42]	Kitto Flora:	Too many physical objects is a sim killer
[8:42]	Andrew Linden:	what shoudl the number be?
[8:42]	Vincent Nacon:	hmm should allow an input setting in estate control
[8:42]	Ryozu Kojima:	=D I know, Eh, I've got a new video fro Youtube
[8:42]	Ryozu Kojima:	Vince has it
[8:42]	Kitto Flora:	Oh
[8:42]	Kitto Flora:	The Fish Sellrs may complain
[8:42]	Vincent Nacon:	I do?
[8:42]	Ryozu Kojima:	Yeah, let the sim owner decide
[8:42]	Andrew Linden:	should we only limit basic accounts? or everybody but parcel owners in the region?
[8:43]	Vincent Nacon:	ah yeah
[8:43]	Kitto Flora:	But let em complain - Physical Fish are a problem
[8:43]	Tmyclyk Dmytryk:	something like per-parcel but to the estate owners descrimination
[8:43]	Rex Cronon:	hello everybody
[8:43]	Vincent Nacon:	heya Rex
[8:43]	Ryozu Kojima:	Hello Rex
[8:43]	Andrew Linden:	I've been toying with the idea of trying to count and limit the number of dynamic objects any particular person can have in one region
[8:44]	Andrew Linden:	and was wondering what you all thought about that idea
[8:44]	Andrew Linden:	and what the limit should be
[8:44]	Vincent Nacon:	as part of anti-greifers?
[8:44]	Andrew Linden:	100?
[8:44]	Ryozu Kojima:	I think it'd kill a lot of fun in some ways
[8:44]	Kitto Flora:	I think thats agood idea - And if can be set by region owner will stifle some complaints
[8:44]	Andrew Linden:	yes, as an anti-grief mechanism/limitation
[8:44]	Rex Cronon:	100 prims, or 100 linked sets
[8:44]	Ryozu Kojima:	That's way too small
[8:44]	Andrew Linden:	total objects (I'm not counting prims)
[8:44]	Vincent Nacon:	I'd say... throw many objects in the sim till the dil and FPS drops by 10%
[8:44]	Andrew Linden:	1000? or smaller than that?
[8:45]	Vincent Nacon:	err well
[8:45]	Rex Cronon:	how about if they are temp?
[8:45]	Ryozu Kojima sighs: I'm torn.
[8:45]	Vincent Nacon:	maybe by 30%
[8:45]	Andrew Linden:	Vincent, that number is smaller than 100
[8:45]	Kitto Flora:	Bullets from guns in a shooting sim... that would makea high count?
[8:45]	Ryozu Kojima:	I had a lot of fun last night with about 1200 physical objects
[8:45]	Andrew Linden:	howabout this: basic accounts get 50, premium accounts get 100, and parcel owenrs in their region get as many as their parcel can support
[8:45]	Ryozu Kojima:	But yes, it did lag the sim
[8:45]	Andrew Linden:	plus 100
[8:46]	Andrew Linden:	er... or 100 if that is bigger
[8:46]	Vincent Nacon:	sound good enough
[8:46]	Rex Cronon:	that number is very low:(
[8:46]	Andrew Linden:	how many parcel owners are here?
[8:46]	Ryozu Kojima:	I think that's pretty limiting personally
[8:46]	Andrew Linden:	how many estate owners are here?
[8:46]	Vincent Nacon:	not as prim
[8:46]	Tmyclyk Dmytryk:	I own a sim
[8:46]	Vincent Nacon:	as one physical object
[8:46]	Ryozu Kojima:	I'm a parcel owner, got estate powers in a couple places, oh, and Tmy has a sim? You never told me XD
[8:46]	Tmyclyk Dmytryk:	lol
[8:47]	Tmyclyk Dmytryk:	i own one and rent an openspace
[8:47]	Vincent Nacon:	I owns nothing... yet I have many estate controls
[8:47]	Andrew Linden:	well... 1200 dynamic objects if fun... but so is griefing for the griefers
[8:47]	Ryozu Kojima:	I know, hence why I'm torn.
[8:47]	Vincent Nacon:	yeah
[8:47]	Kitto Flora:	Was there a switch there? Andrew - are you saying limit physical objects by user, not region?
[8:48]	Andrew Linden:	but I don't see why an estate owner couldn't play with 1200 dynamic objects
[8:48]	Vincent Nacon:	so 50 is good number for basic accounts
[8:48]	Ryozu Kojima:	It'd be pretty dissapointing if I was only allowed 100 bjects
[8:48]	Vincent Nacon:	or heck... go 25
[8:48]	Ryozu Kojima:	Since I don't have an estate
[8:48]	Ryozu Kojima:	I'd say 100
[8:48]	Rex Cronon:	your solution might not solve the problem, as a griefer can have 10 or more accounts. and can login with all off them at the same time, and also control them
[8:48]	Ryozu Kojima:	It would take 10 greifers to do 1000 physical objects in one region.
[8:48]	Tmyclyk Dmytryk:	did you say that parcel owners can place as many as their parcel will support?
[8:49]	Andrew Linden:	ok well, just something I was thinking about
[8:49]	Andrew Linden:	if we did work on it it would be after Havok4
[8:49]	Vincent Nacon:	it's still a good idea
[8:49]	Ryozu Kojima:	And 1000 dynamic objects, isn't enough to truly kill a sim
[8:49]	Kitto Flora:	I'd say - limit by area. The political ramifications of 'discrimination by account type' might be ... enormous.
[8:49]	Ryozu Kojima:	Don't get me wrong though, I do support it. It just needs to be refined
[8:49]	Rex Cronon:	can u apply this rull only for objects that are not temp?
[8:50]	Rex Cronon:	rule(
[8:50]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, but 1000 objects can trigger the runtime collision control system (RCCS) which can cause various problems
[8:50]	Vincent Nacon:	aye
[8:50]	Ryozu Kojima:	Perhaps a ratio of objects to available objects?
[8:50]	Andrew Linden:	at the moment there are some grief modes using the RCCS
[8:50]	Andrew Linden:	which need to be fix3ed
[8:50]	Vincent Nacon:	such things like Torus monster
[8:50]	Kitto Flora:	How many physical bullets get rezzed at a time in the combat sims?
[8:50]	Tmyclyk Dmytryk:	The prim count has to be enough for an invidual to be at least to drive around with surplus
[8:51]	Tmyclyk Dmytryk:	it is something that would need a lot more discussion in terms of implementation methods
[8:51]	Andrew Linden:	lots of bullets get rezzed... that would cause a problem to clamp them
[8:51]	Ryozu Kojima:	Err, well, nah, that doesn't quite work.
[8:51]	Ryozu Kojima:	IE: If the sim has room for 1000 objects (Not counting physical) 10% of available objects would turn out to be 100
[8:51]	Andrew Linden:	ideally you'd delete the old bullets to make room for the new ones... if you could make the system that smart
[8:51]	Vincent Nacon:	aye
[8:51]	Ryozu Kojima:	Ouch
[8:51]	Ryozu Kojima:	Sim hiccup
[8:52]	Vincent Nacon:	I'd say 25 to force them to "reload"
[8:52]	Kitto Flora:	bullets are supposed to be temp on rez
[8:52]	Ryozu Kojima:	Perhaps the rules could be looser with temp on rez objects
[8:52]	Andrew Linden:	temp on rez objects get harvested -- older ones first, when there are too many
[8:52]	Tmyclyk Dmytryk:	25 isn't enough if such a thing was implemented
[8:52]	Andrew Linden:	that system is already in place
[8:52]	Tmyclyk Dmytryk:	oh wait you know
[8:52]	Ryozu Kojima:	Right
[8:52]	Tmyclyk Dmytryk:	I'm missing the fact that a linkset counts as a dynamic object
[8:53]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, 25 is too small I think
[8:53]	Tmyclyk Dmytryk:	but it is too small
[8:53]	Tmyclyk Dmytryk:	I think 100 would be min
[8:53]	Ryozu Kojima:	Even then, there are people who want to do simple physics machiens
[8:53]	Ryozu Kojima:	Or displays
[8:53]	Kitto Flora:	Well - bullets is one place I can see problems perhaps with phys. object limits
[8:53]	Tmyclyk Dmytryk:	yeah
[8:53]	Ryozu Kojima:	Kinetic art
[8:53]	Kitto Flora:	Fish is the other
[8:53]	Andrew Linden:	oh well, if we work on it we'll certainly have time to tweak the numbers
[8:53]	Ryozu Kojima:	Not everyone would have land.
[8:53]	Ryozu Kojima:	Right
[8:53]	Andrew Linden:	I was more curious about what reactions you all would have
[8:53]	Ryozu Kojima:	Bullets would be a big one
[8:53]	Ryozu Kojima:	People who use guns are never doing it over their own land
[8:54]	Ryozu Kojima:	well, rarely
[8:54]	Ryozu Kojima:	Hehe
[8:54]	Tmyclyk Dmytryk:	lol
[8:54]	Kitto Flora:	I for one am in favour of any capping limit on over-use of Sim resources
[8:54]	Ryozu Kojima:	We're the special crowd Andrew ;)
[8:54]	Kitto Flora:	I see a lot of sims trashed out by over-use of stuff
[8:54]	Ryozu Kojima:	So don't take our reaction as run of the mill
[8:54]	Vincent Nacon:	aye same
[8:54]	Rex Cronon:	having only 100 prims is not overuse
[8:54]	Vincent Nacon:	not prims
[8:54]	Kitto Flora:	And the owners frustrated because they have no good way to control
[8:54]	Ryozu Kojima:	I'm all for capping, but only if it's done RIGHT at the brink
[8:54]	Vincent Nacon:	just objects
[8:55]	Rex Cronon:	ok objects
[8:55]	Andrew Linden:	yes, not prims -- distinct objects
[8:55]	Ryozu Kojima:	How about having this kick in ONLY once the sim starts to drop performance?
[8:55]	Kitto Flora:	Other one is script limit
[8:55]	Andrew Linden:	yes Ryozu, that could probably be done
[8:55]	Ryozu Kojima:	Then we could support a low number, which would help bring the sim back up pretty fast
[8:55]	Vincent Nacon:	well thus the reason why the sim was gonna get overloaded
[8:55]	Andrew Linden:	yes, we need script limits and also ways to allocate script runtime resources in a fair way
[8:55]	Rex Cronon:	so somebody can rezz 100 objects, each one having 253 links?
[8:56]	Andrew Linden:	but that work is all post-MONO
[8:56]	Tmyclyk Dmytryk:	Is it possible to apply lower priority to say Dynamic objects Andrew?
[8:56]	Ryozu Kojima:	Objects over non-owner land would get returned or non-physed first
[8:56]	Vincent Nacon:	32 prims
[8:56]	Vincent Nacon:	not 256
[8:56]	Ryozu Kojima:	Rex: 31 is still max size (32?)
[8:56]	Ryozu Kojima:	For dynamic objects
[8:56]	Andrew Linden:	"lower priority"? in what way? scripts?
[8:56]	Tmyclyk Dmytryk:	Another potential implementation would be applying lower priority to objects of people who don't own land in a region
[8:56]	Andrew Linden:	network updates of position? (probably a bad idea)
[8:57]	Andrew Linden:	oh, script priority
[8:57]	Tmyclyk Dmytryk:	Well for example if Physics begins overloading couldn't there potentially be a way to apply lower priority to specific prims therefore they don't get so many cycles.
[8:57]	Ryozu Kojima:	I see what Tmy is saying, but I'm not sure it'd work well
[8:57]	Andrew Linden:	yes definitely, although there is lots of details there
[8:57]	Rex Cronon:	i have seen bullets that have over 1000 runing scripts in them
[8:57]	Ryozu Kojima:	-_-;;
[8:57]	Ryozu Kojima:	Bad scripters
[8:57]	Vincent Nacon:	aye
[8:57]	Tmyclyk Dmytryk:	well i don't mean scripts but just the physics processing of a physical object
[8:58]	Rex Cronon:	no, not bad scripters, they want to achive orbit
[8:58]	Ryozu Kojima:	It somehow turned into general performance talk
[8:58]	Kitto Flora:	If you limited runtime of scripts in dynamic objects all vehicles would be affected. LOTS of complains. BUT lets wait see what MONO does for us first. Maybe problems will go away if MONO is that much better
[8:58]	Ryozu Kojima:	Mono might fix a LOT of issues
[8:58]	Andrew Linden:	I think that the script runtime should be divided up, and parcel owners should get first dibs on most of the script resources
[8:58]	Vincent Nacon:	oh how about this? basic get 25 objects... but if they go over 25, those objects are cube based bounding box, then it's limited at 100 or 50
[8:59]	Andrew Linden:	then have a public share (gauranteed at 25% or so + whatever is left over)
[8:59]	Kitto Flora:	I agree with that Andersw
[8:59]	Ryozu Kojima:	Thing is, I sell scripted products, nearly all of which are attachments. I want my customers to get what they pay for
[8:59]	Kitto Flora:	The visiting Avs with 2000 attached scripts are a real headache
[8:59]	Andrew Linden:	hrm... yes we could impose collision simplification for dynamic objects over some threshold
[9:00]	Ryozu Kojima:	That would probably be better than just disabling physics for dynamic objects past a certain count.
[9:00]	Ryozu Kojima:	A little more leeway
[9:00]	Vincent Nacon:	cause I really don't see why or what the person really need 25 physical objects at the same time other than bullets
[9:00]	Andrew Linden:	yes Ryozu, so attachments would fall into the 25% of all resources + whatever is left over once the parcel owners get first dibs
[9:00]	Kitto Flora:	Fish
[9:00]	Andrew Linden:	(this is just some ideas -- not a real plan from LL)
[9:00]	Ryozu Kojima:	Not sure that'd be enough, hehe
[9:00]	Ryozu Kojima:	Right, of course
[9:00]	Vincent Nacon:	having fishes is more likely by a parcel owner
[9:01]	Vincent Nacon:	or estate
[9:01]	Kitto Flora:	100%
[9:01]	Kitto Flora:	And I dont like physical fish. But they make em
[9:01]	Rex Cronon:	have ever heard of intercepts?
[9:01]	Ryozu Kojima:	Thing is Vince, you can't limit by what exists already and how we think people might use it. If They did that from the beginning, SL would be dead in the water
[9:01]	Rex Cronon:	small shields rezzed in front of bullets
[9:01]	Andrew Linden:	was that a question for me Rex? intercepts?
[9:02]	Rex Cronon:	yes
[9:02]	Tmyclyk Dmytryk:	I think the best approach to the whole thing would just simplify the processing on physical objects when there is so much going on
[9:02]	Ryozu Kojima:	Need to leave room for creativity
[9:02]	Andrew Linden:	no Rex, more context to that question please.
[9:02]	Rex Cronon:	if u r underfire your shield can rezz 20 or more of them
[9:02]	Ryozu Kojima:	Andrew: A defense machanism is to rez small physical objects in front of bullets to cause them to stop
[9:03]	Ryozu Kojima:	Horribly resource intensive actually
[9:03]	Vincent Nacon:	we're talking about basic accounts that doesn't have parcel or estate.... aka possible-greifers
[9:03]	Rex Cronon:	depends on implementation
[9:03]	Ryozu Kojima:	I don't like the idea of assuming they're all greifers though
[9:03]	Andrew Linden:	ah, and what do intercepts have to do with what we were just talking about? the limit of dynamic objects?
[9:03]	Vincent Nacon:	parcel and estate would have enough to do what they need
[9:03]	Rex Cronon:	intercepts can be dynamic
[9:04]	Tmyclyk Dmytryk:	I don't think we should do a fire-first ask questions later situation when it comes to account status... many of us all started out as basic as well...
[9:04]	Rex Cronon:	and if u already shoot 100 bullets u can no longer rezz any intercepts
[9:04]	Kitto Flora:	I see what Rex is saying - yes... much more collisions to solve
[9:04]	Ryozu Kojima:	I don't think we need a hard limit
[9:04]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, well the idea needs more thought
[9:04]	Vincent Nacon:	yeah
[9:04]	Ryozu Kojima:	It's something to start with though =)
[9:05]	Ryozu Kojima:	Speaking of, it's 9am
[9:05]	Jamaica Noel:	mr linden
[9:05]	Tmyclyk Dmytryk:	I think the limit should be something of granted processing power for the physics processing on objects only.
[9:05]	Rex Cronon:	oh, there there are explosions that generate a few hundred pices of sharpnel
[9:05]	Ryozu Kojima:	Will you hate me if I shoo yo back to work Andrew? =D
[9:05]	Jamaica Noel:	before u leave
[9:05]	Kitto Flora:	Well - shooting is limited to particular sims . if the sim owner can set the limit - they can sacrifice other stuff in the sim so butllets etc work well
[9:05]	Andrew Linden:	it might be possible to provide behavior checkboxes for estate owners (and eventually simualtor hosters)
[9:05]	Rex Cronon:	i have a request/question andrew
[9:05]	Vincent Nacon:	alrighty
[9:06]	Andrew Linden:	so these limits could be enabled/disabled or even tweaked by the estate owners
[9:06]	Kitto Flora:	likes that
[9:06]	Rex Cronon:	are u posting transcripts from your office hours?
[9:06]	Andrew Linden:	but that is all in the glorius future
[9:06]	Vincent Nacon:	but enable them in sandboxes except weapon testing zone ;)
[9:06]	Andrew Linden:	Alas, I am not organized enough to post the transcripts yet.
[9:06]	Rex Cronon:	is hard for me to come to your office hours, but i would still like to read them:)
[9:06]	Andrew Linden:	There is a wiki, right?
[9:06]	Vincent Nacon:	I've started the logging
[9:07]	Kitto Flora:	Any more? I gtg
[9:07]	Rex Cronon:	do u have a link vincent?
[9:07]	Vincent Nacon:	....I'm still logging it O-o
[9:07]	Rex Cronon:	o
[9:08]	Andrew Linden:	I'll try to make a copy of the transcript, and then maybe I can get around to putting it somewhere
[9:08]	Andrew Linden:	I'm new to this office hour stuff -- I'm usually working too hard to hold them
[9:08]	Vincent Nacon:	but I do have one from Tuesday