User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2009 06 04

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[17:02]	Arawn Spitteler hurriedly interjects: Is there still a problem with SVC-22, SVC-93 and SVC-2931?
[17:02]	JIRA-helper: http:	//jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2931
	[#SVC-2931] llSetLinkPrimitiveParams content breakage, only moves agents 54 meters now
[17:02]	JIRA-helper: http:	//jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-93
	[#SVC-93] llSetPrimitiveParams PRIM_ROTATION and llSetRot incorrectly implemented for child prims
[17:02]	Moon Metty:	wow
[17:02]	Moon Metty:	i see Brandon's av as pixelated
[17:02]	Fred Rookstown:	aHey red, twisted.
[17:02]	Stickman Ingmann:	Sounds like an imposter, Moon.
[17:02]	Brandon Shinobu:	Yes, I am slightly insane.
[17:02]	Arawn Spitteler:	Have yo got Imposters on, Moon?
[17:02]	Latif Khalifa:	hey simon
[17:02]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I see Simon excape the dragon. :-)
[17:02]	Moon Metty:	with HUGE pixels
[17:02]	Tegg Bode:	Yeah new viewer turned Avatar imposters on for me too
[17:03]	Moon Metty:	hi Andrew and Simon :)
[17:03]	Simon Linden:	jello
[17:03]	Brandon Shinobu:	I regurgitated him. He complained too much.
[17:03]	Avil Creeggan claps.
[17:03]	Latif Khalifa:	hey andrew
[17:03]	xstorm Radek:	hi every one
[17:03]	Arawn Spitteler:	Strangley, it turned local lights off for me, but didn't turn Imposters on
[17:03]	xstorm Radek:	if your there that is
[17:03]	Andrew Linden:	hello
[17:03]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I want that setting to STICK. I came really close to filing bug report due to that setting.
[17:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hi Andrew
[17:03]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hi, Andrew, & Simon
[17:03]	Patty1 Rosca:	nothing rezing for me
[17:03]	Andrew Linden:	Announcements...
[17:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hi Simon
[17:04]	xstorm Radek:	rez damn it rez
[17:04]	Stickman Ingmann:	Hi Andrew, Simon. Thanks for coming. :D
[17:04]	Simon Linden:	Hello Morgaine & Everyone
[17:04]	Patty1 Rosca:	hello Simon
[17:04]	Moon Metty:	ok, i made a screenshot
[17:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	Rezzing has really slowed down.
[17:04]	Patty1 Rosca:	howdy Andrew
[17:04]	Andrew Linden:	I'm feeling a bit more upbeat this week -- I've been able to partition out the Critical and Major bug fixes in my various maint-server-* branches that have been piling up.
[17:04]	xstorm Radek:	a $27,000 server and rez time is still slow
[17:04]	Fred Rookstown:	Great.
[17:05]	Brandon Shinobu:	wundebar
[17:05]	Andrew Linden:	They've been packaged for server-1.27 and just need some testing an merge -- they will probably get in
[17:05]	Andrew Linden:	things are starting to move again
[17:05]	Andrew Linden:	I still have a bunch of Normal priority bug fixes to package up
[17:05]	Latif Khalifa:	excellent news
[17:05]	Andrew Linden:	but I'l tackle those tomorrow
[17:05]	Baldi McMillan:	very nice
[17:06]	Morgaine Dinova:	Oh, talking of lag, at Rob's OH, Philip was encouraging performance and lag testing / measuring facilities to be added to Snowglobe, so that we know and not just guess whether stuff is getting faster or slower.
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	in the end, when server-1.27 ships, I should be much closer to the server-1.29 branch for any newly fixed bugs
[17:06]	Arawn Spitteler wonders what we'll talk about, once SVC-22 is fixed: Is there a problem, with TargetOmega on Selection?
[17:06]	Brandon Shinobu:	Andrew, I have something to bring up really quick if I can - I have to afk for a while very shortly.
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	so they won't sit around quite so long before they get shipped
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	Go ahead Brandon
[17:06]	reddot99 Republic:	no thats intended
[17:06]	reddot99 Republic:	for omega
[17:07]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hurry it in, so you can repeat the question next week; we're building a fine tradition
[17:07]	Brandon Shinobu:	A while ago I proposed SVC-2885, for llGet and SEtObjectScale functions. I've heard some other people have been spreading it around, so I updated the JIRA a few times recently.
[17:07]	JIRA-helper: http:	//jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2885
	[#SVC-2885] llSetObjectScale and llGetObjectScale
[17:07]	Brandon Shinobu:	I was also told that you don't have a lot of time, which is understandable.
[17:07]	Brandon Shinobu:	I was wondering if you knew of anyone else who might be able to work on it, since you are so pressed for time with maintenance bugs and physics issues.
[17:07]	reddot99 Republic:	heh, we talked about this tuesday, heh
[17:08]	Fred Rookstown:	Andrew, any news on fixes pertaining to SVC-4000? These memory leaks are breaking a LOT of products.
[17:08]	JIRA-helper: http:	//jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4000
	[#SVC-4000] memory leak 1.26.3
[17:08]	Latif Khalifa:	I agree with Brandon, this would eliminate a dozens, even hundreds scripts per object
[17:08]	Andrew Linden:	oh that one. we talked about it last week
[17:08]	reddot99 Republic:	tuesday, not last week
[17:09]	Andrew Linden:	Naturally the scale must be done uniformly for linked objects, which that jira feature talks about
[17:09]	Arawn Spitteler:	llSetObjectScale, as opposed to llSetScale? It's a lot to worry about, if you want to synthesis
[17:09]	Brandon Shinobu:	Yes, I only ever intended the function to emulate exactly what is capable in the build GUI
[17:09]	reddot99 Republic:	but its more useful
[17:09]	Brandon Shinobu:	I'm not looking for anything new in the function, just the ability to scale an entire linkset.
[17:09]	Andrew Linden:	however, I question the need for the "direction" vector argument -- I don't believe it is very useful but I need to read the proposal more carefully and think about it
[17:09]	Latif Khalifa:	is setting linkset scale purelly viewr operation now?
[17:10]	Latif Khalifa:	not done server side i mean
[17:10]	Brandon Shinobu:	The 'direction" isn't as clear as it could be, I'll try to clear that up.
[17:10]	Charlette Proto:	Brandon have you seen your avie's imposter - very posterised (sidetracking sry)
[17:10]	Brandon Shinobu:	The direction isjust so that the function can emulate which direction you want to drag from.
[17:10]	Andrew Linden:	in the UI when you drag the white squares for uniform scale the obejct shifts in the direction of the selected corner
[17:10]	reddot99 Republic:	well, that can be done seprateely,
[17:10]	Stickman Ingmann:	I'd be interested in a screneshot of that if you can, Charlette. :)
[17:11]	Brandon Shinobu:	Yes, if you don't have Stretch Both Sides enabled
[17:11]	Latif Khalifa:	yeah, setting scale without moving would be useful too
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	and if symmetric scaling is set it just stays in place... sorta. The root prim's position might move, right?
[17:11]	Brandon Shinobu:	If you have stretch both sides enabled, it scales from the center of the object.
[17:11]	reddot99 Republic:	it will mmove
[17:11]	Brandon Shinobu:	Yes
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	so i guess you're trying to cover all of those possible corner drags, and the symmetric scale by using the "direction" vector
[17:11]	Charlette Proto:	is "Stretch Both Sides" in debug?
[17:12]	Brandon Shinobu:	If that vector makes it too complicated, I'd be happy to have the function without it, but I think it would be a good thin to be able to completely emulate the GUI's capacity.
[17:12]	Brandon Shinobu:	Yes, exactly
[17:12]	Latif Khalifa personally would be happy with just scaling, without moving the root prim
[17:12]	reddot99 Republic:	just scale object is needed, the other part can be fixed with llboundingbox and a few hacks
[17:12]	Moon Metty:	yup
[17:12]	Andrew Linden:	"stretch both sides" scales from the "center of the object" ? or from the root prim's position?
[17:12]	reddot99 Republic:	center geometicly
[17:12]	Brandon Shinobu:	From the center of the object, I beleive
[17:12]	Brandon Shinobu:	Yes, geometric center.
[17:13]	Morgaine Dinova:	It'll result in jiras though, from those who expect it to scale from geometrical centre instead of from root prim
[17:13]	Latif Khalifa:	Andrew, if it makes it difficult to implement, or if it means that we get this useful feature sooner, I belive we can live without direction :)
[17:13]	Brandon Shinobu:	Only if they don't read on how to use the function, hehe
[17:13]	Moon Metty:	there are some existing issues with that
[17:13]	Andrew Linden:	It scales from the center of the selection box, not really the "center" of the object.
[17:13]	Brandon Shinobu:	All the vector is intended to do is to define which corner the object is being dragged in the resize.
[17:13]	reddot99 Republic:	i'd rather root prim
[17:14]	reddot99 Republic:	brandon, would it be a normalized directional vector?
[17:14]	Brandon Shinobu:	Like LAtif said, I'd be willing to do without that direction vector, and be happy with just being able to scale the linkset.
[17:14]	Andrew Linden:	Well, a uniform scale will move the position of the object, so the behavior of the resulting translation must be defined
[17:14]	Morgaine Dinova:	A displacement vector would certainly add flexibility.
[17:14]	Latif Khalifa:	Brandon, would not moving root prim at be acceptable to you too? i think it would work
[17:14]	Arawn Spitteler:	If it's not from Root Prim, what happens to Pos?
[17:15]	Andrew Linden:	perhaps instead of "direction" you want an index that represents which corner of the box to pull?
[17:15]	Moon Metty:	VWR-13416
[17:15]	JIRA-helper: http:	//jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-13416
	[#VWR-13416] The Center of Rotation changes location and orientation after linking a set of prims, then deselecting/reselection the linkset
[17:15]	Brandon Shinobu:	Yes Andrew
[17:15]	Brandon Shinobu:	Would that be difficult?
[17:15]	Andrew Linden:	or maybe a calculation should ray-trace out and find the closest corner that "direction" passes and drag out from that one?
[17:15]	Tegg Bode:	Sounds very handy rather than force people to change boy shap to fit custom armor
[17:15]	Morgaine Dinova:	What's the actual use case?
[17:15]	reddot99 Republic:	oh moon, i notice that on my missles
[17:16]	Tegg Bode:	body shape*
[17:16]	Brandon Shinobu:	Resizing scripts, Morgaine
[17:16]	Charlette Proto:	the root prim is the only element explicitly defined by the user so it should be the one fixing the vector of transformations
[17:16]	Brandon Shinobu:	Attachments especially, such as hair, etc, but it could be used in a LOT of things.
[17:16]	Morgaine Dinova:	I was sorely tempted to say that scripts have no size, but let you off. :P
[17:16]	Rex Cronon:	hello everybody
[17:16]	Brandon Shinobu:	It'd be replacing the hundreds of resize scripts currently necessary to do it.
[17:16]	Moon Metty:	hi Rex :)
[17:16]	Latif Khalifa:	morg a lot of people sell objects, say prim hair or other attachments that allow you to resize them... right now it can only be done if you have a scritp in each prim, which can be dozens or even hundreds of scripts just to achieve resizing
[17:17]	Rex Cronon:	hi moon
[17:17]	reddot99 Republic:	actual use, dynamicly resizing a vehicle so the veiw point fits right
[17:17]	Morgaine Dinova:	Latif: aha! Great, thanks
[17:17]	reddot99 Republic:	when in mouselook
[17:17]	Rex Cronon:	that hair cann cause a real headache:)
[17:17]	Tegg Bode:	yep and have to shift the prima s ou resize them too to keep them lining up
[17:17]	xstorm Radek:	hi rex
[17:17]	Brandon Shinobu:	And then you get many of those people in a single place, like clubs or whatnot, with all of those scripts, it causes a lot of unnecessary resources to be taken up by the server.
[17:17]	Latif Khalifa:	its a very common issue
[17:18]	Brandon Shinobu:	Not to mention, using them is laggy.
[17:18]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well saving massively on scripts is undeniably a benefit to LL.
[17:18]	Fred Rookstown:	Not to mention that memory is misreported.
[17:18]	Rex Cronon:	hi xstrom
[17:18]	Charlette Proto:	stupid people don't even delete the resize scripts and some stupid products don't let you do it
[17:18]	Brandon Shinobu:	But anyway, yes Andrew, I would be happy with however it could be easily implemented, and not take too much of your time, but if some means of emulating the drag boxes, or scaling from the center could be done, I think it would be best.
[17:18]	xstorm Radek:	we will not have lag if the SL servers was not in the red on the lag meeter
[17:18]	Brandon Shinobu:	It would actually eliminate a lot of confusion when people understood it worked just like the build menu.
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	Brandon, I'll say what I said on Tuesday: I'll consider that prosposed LSL call for when I try to implement some of the other not-very -hard proposed LSL calls.
[17:19]	Avil Creeggan:	If I could get the next question, Andrew?
[17:19]	Tegg Bode:	They aren't necessarily stupid, not everyone is an experienced user
[17:19]	Brandon Shinobu:	Is there anyone who might be able to work on it in the meantime?
[17:19]	reddot99 Republic:	brandon, so many people dont know how that window works
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	I've been planning on working on a little project that implements 5 to 8 of the easy LSL additions.
[17:19]	Brandon Shinobu:	I understand that you're really busy
[17:19]	Arawn Spitteler:	Ask Forgiveness, Avil, rather than permision
[17:19]	Charlette Proto:	well primwhore noob too lazy to look at the dialogs in my eyes is 'stupid'
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	Go ahead Avil.
[17:20]	Avil Creeggan:	Alright, Andrew... I've been going around trying to find the right Linden to talk to about this for a while, and following a fairly lengthy email I wrote to Soft after the bug triage meeting this week, I got pointed in your direction. I'll spare most of the details, for time's sake - if you'd like me to give you a copy of the email I sent Soft, I can - but I'd like to ask you about SVC-1253. Given the length of time that the bug has existed, are we to expect a fix in the near future? Is it still considered an exploit? I don't ask these questions to be critical of the time it's taken to create and apply a patch, but rather, because the community I represent - the combat community - is growing to accommodate the functionality offered by the misfeature of SVC-1253, and we're all eager to know if we can expect that functionality to stay.
[17:20]	JIRA-helper: http:	//jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1253
	[#SVC-1253] users sitting on prims, which are set to phantom are not affected by damage.
[17:20]	Baldi McMillan:	O.O
[17:20]	Brandon Shinobu:	wow
[17:20]	Avil Creeggan:	Pre-typed.
[17:20]	Charlette Proto:	a summary Avil?
[17:20]	Brandon Shinobu:	Thanks for the info Andrew :) I need to afk now to get dinner.
[17:20]	Brandon Shinobu will continue sitting here so he can read the logs later.
[17:20]	Andrew Linden:	That bug definitely falls under my domain. I'd like to fix it
[17:21]	Morgaine Dinova:	Avil comes from the Morg school of writing :-)
[17:21]	reddot99 Republic:	damage requires a collision and that prevents colision,
[17:21]	Baldi McMillan:	;-)
[17:21]	reddot99 Republic:	i'd rather it not be fixed
[17:21]	reddot99 Republic:	personally,
[17:21]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, some people don't want it fixed.
[17:22]	reddot99 Republic:	it makes an npv a safe way to get through combat areas
[17:22]	Rex Cronon:	could u "not"fix it
[17:22]	Avil Creeggan:	Basically, SVC-1253 allows avatars to become phantom, and it's existed on the main grid for... almost a year and a half. The thing is, with the length of time it's been around, there is more and more content that's being created within the combat community that uses the "misfeature" - armored vehicles, for example - and we're looking, as a community, at making some pretty big changes to how we operate. The only real obstacle is whether or not we can count on our content not being broken the next day.
[17:22]	Tegg Bode:	Cool, but I guess I would imagine if the Land owner wants damage turned on then it should work
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	What I'd really like to do is: (1) Implement an alternate way for people to get access to the cool content that it enables
[17:22]	Rex Cronon:	instead do not allow those that use it, to be able to do damage
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	(2) Schedule a fix for the misfeature
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	(3) Ship that fix
[17:23]	xstorm Radek:	if you made it so people can take damage griefers will love you
[17:23]	Andrew Linden:	I need to think it all the way through... it currently hurts my brain because I've got so many other knives in the air that I'm juggling.
[17:23]	reddot99 Republic:	the phantom av trick is helpful even outside of combat areas, i've used to to make a submarine that goes undergound
[17:23]	Rex Cronon:	or u can allow the sim owner to set how much damage can receive/give those that are in ghost mode?
[17:23]	Techwolf Lupindo throws a snake into the flying knives.
[17:24]	Andrew Linden:	gah! underground avatars in submarines?
[17:24]	Avil Creeggan:	Now, strictly speaking, it's a bug - and you've commented on this - but at the same time, you've given reasoning of how it could violate resident's privacy and how you were hoping to prevent that sort of violation post-Havok2; furthermore, I've seen that, on features like PosJump (I don't remember the SVC... it's the "move to a random coordinate and then to your final target" thing for llSetPrimParams) - you've talked about intentionally not breaking existing PosJump scripts after applying fixes to a vector class.
[17:24]	reddot99 Republic:	lol, well, a shark technicly,
[17:24]	Morgaine Dinova:	Or, you could make sitting on a phantom prim give a person a mass of zero, so that the first projectile to hit them sends them into orbit, but undamaged :-)
[17:24]	Rex Cronon:	sxtrom, griefers already used it to protect themselves
[17:25]	Twisted Laws:	only the experiened griefers, rex
[17:25]	reddot99 Republic:	i've used it in my tank i built to defend agaisnt griefers in nondamage areas
[17:25]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, the problem is that when I try to fix misfeatures people complain, and then other Lindens who don't share my resolve get on my case, and we end up rolling fixes like that back.
[17:25]	xstorm Radek:	Rex i hope your not saying you shoot griefers ?
[17:26]	Rex Cronon:	if u havearound 2k lindens u don't need to have experience. u can buy defence, and offence:)
[17:26]	Andrew Linden:	Thanks for reminding me about PosJump... there is some work left to do on that (sigh).
[17:26]	Latif Khalifa:	hence bugs like that need to be fixed fast :)
[17:26]	Stickman Ingmann:	Op, excuse me please. Someone's birthday dinner just got sprung on me.
[17:26]	Moon Metty:	have fun Stick :)
[17:26]	Avil Creeggan:	As far as griefing concerns... the average resident can obviously benefit from not being collided with, and those who don't like the bug can do what they do already - ban people who use that content. Honestly, the people who use combat do it on privately owned land and simulators and they can have the discretion to do that sort of thing. I mean, I understand your predicament - I just need to be able to go back and say something. Are we in a holding pattern until the VolumeDetect functionality is destroyed and then formalized in a seperate function? Can we continue integrating content that uses VolumeDetect in that fashion without a fear of it breaking?
[17:26]	Rex Cronon:	there is something called defence:)
[17:26]	reddot99 Republic:	rex, i designed a number of vehicles around that bug,
[17:26]	xstorm Radek:	you give me the 2k and i will buy some bread in rl with it
[17:27]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: yeah, very important that such debateable changes get voted internally, so that there's no blaming involved.
[17:27]	Rex Cronon:	i want to keep that "bug", but in a modified version. read what i said in jira:)
[17:27]	Andrew Linden:	How about this... you can set yourself phantom but then you can't rez anything from scripted attachments while in that state...
[17:27]	Charlette Proto:	Avil your issues will not be addressed if you put them the long way like this
[17:27]	reddot99 Republic:	that works andrew,
[17:28]	Moon Metty:	hmmm
[17:28]	Arawn Spitteler:	Would there be a way, to detect phantom avatars?
[17:28]	Latif Khalifa:	VolumeDetect detect to make partial phantom linksets is going to be fixed according to Vektor
[17:28]	reddot99 Republic:	and my tank already gets around it
[17:28]	Morgaine Dinova:	That's an odd spec
[17:28]	Fred Rookstown:	Bascially, like what happens when you stop sending AgentUpdate packets @ Andrew
[17:28]	Fred Rookstown:	?
[17:28]	xstorm Radek:	yes
[17:28]	xstorm Radek:	you can see phantom av's
[17:28]	Andrew Linden:	oh that AgentUpdate thing. I need to investigate to see what actually happens.
[17:29]	xstorm Radek:	phantom is not a ghost av
[17:29]	reddot99 Republic:	i use a follower for the gun, it doesnt matter if attachments dont rez,
[17:29]	Arawn Spitteler:	You can see that they're phantom?
[17:29]	Andrew Linden:	Based on what I remember of the code, lack of AgentUpdate packets should actually cause your avatar to get kicked after about 1 min
[17:29]	Fred Rookstown:	Andrew: It's a very useful tool; When I go AFK in the sandboxes, I set phantom so I don't get tossed around by some noob with a cager
[17:29]	Andrew Linden:	however someone was claiming that it does not happen
[17:29]	xstorm Radek:	any one with admin powers can remove that person
[17:29]	Andrew Linden:	so I've got to investigate
[17:30]	Twisted Laws:	you can stop them much longer Andrew.. i've tested up to 30minutes
[17:30]	Latif Khalifa:	Andrew, some 3rd party viewers use that trick to make you phantom, you cannot move, but you don't collide either
[17:30]	xstorm Radek:	that prim is phantom
[17:30]	Latif Khalifa:	Emerald viewer does that
[17:30]	xstorm Radek:	that prim is set to phantom
[17:30]	Arawn Spitteler:	If you simply sit on a prim, you should be cager proofed
[17:30]	xstorm Radek:	you can see it
[17:30]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, I was thinking about that reddot99, but such a follower won't work on some parcels where attachments still work
[17:30]	Fred Rookstown:	True @ Arawn, but I like to do so in style ;o
[17:31]	Fred Rookstown:	It's pricess to come back to a newbie screaming at me for being invincible.
[17:31]	Fred Rookstown:	priceless*
[17:31]	xstorm Radek:	*GIGGLES* :)Andrew Linden 02:28, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
[17:31]	Arawn Spitteler becons to the newbi: Come back here; I'll bite your knee caps off.
[17:31]	reddot99 Republic:	oh, thats what you may think, i've gotten it to work otherwise i went out of my way to make sure that it worked everywhere
[17:31]	Rex Cronon:	there r cages that follow, even in safe zones
[17:31]	xstorm Radek:	no one sitting on a phantom prim is a god they can be ejected
[17:31]	Andrew Linden:	sigh... xstorm that GIGGLES stuff throws off my wiki formatter script. I need to fix that
[17:32]	Charlette Proto:	Fred are your sounds turned off or do you actually like these noises?
[17:32]	Moon Metty:	lol
[17:32]	Fred Rookstown:	Which noises, on my keyboard?
[17:32]	Fred Rookstown:	hkey
[17:32]	xstorm Radek:	:-)
[17:32]	Fred Rookstown:	There.
[17:32]	Charlette Proto:	the squeals you make tykping
[17:32]	Charlette Proto:	thankies
[17:32]	Fred Rookstown:	I turned those off.
[17:32]	xstorm Radek:	i have to say how many people i gave that out to
[17:33]	Simon Linden:	Hmm, no annoucements from me ... I'm going to be working on some region crossing issues tomorrow. We've found they are much worse if 2 regions run on the same machine, so I plan on tracking that down
[17:33]	reddot99 Republic:	andrew, if you want me to demonstrate the underground in submarine thing i'll do so,
[17:33]	Moon Metty:	oh, good clue, Simon
[17:33]	Andrew Linden:	No reddot99, I believe you.
[17:33]	Charlette Proto:	when is 1.27 expected to be deployed?
[17:34]	Avil Creeggan:	I mean... there's def a huge debate about it that we could repeat here if you wanted it to take up most of your office hours, but if you just read the comments on SVC-1253 or check a community publication like, say, the New Jessie War Journal, you can get the idea. I don't want to spend your time rehashing that debate either. I sort of just want a status update - Is something happening to it in the next few server versions? Is it still considered a bug, or has it moved to a misfeature in your mind? And if it's patched, is existing content going to be left functional?
[17:34]	Morgaine Dinova:	xstorm: has any Linden ever accompanied you to the London sims to see the phantom sim?
[17:34]	Fred Rookstown:	Also, any news on fixes relating to SVC-4000 (LSL memory leaks that cause stack overflows, even in scripts that check with llGetFreeMemory())
[17:34]	Andrew Linden:	The status is... I still consider it a bug, but I'm not working on it. I'm not fixing any bugs right now.
[17:34]	xstorm Radek:	sssshhhh :-)
[17:34]	Andrew Linden:	I'm trying to get all the existing bug fixes into server-1.27
[17:35]	xstorm Radek:	lets keep it a secret
[17:35]	Patty1 Rosca:	lol
[17:35]	Andrew Linden:	once that logjam is cleared then I'll start fixing bugs again.
[17:35]	Andrew Linden:	maybe even next week
[17:35]	reddot99 Republic:	i used it in amity isle when i was building their jaws
[17:35]	Avil Creeggan:	So it will be fixed?
[17:35]	Avil Creeggan:	Eventunally?
[17:36]	xstorm Radek:	but yes another sim had gone ghost on us
[17:36]	reddot99 Republic:	snuck up under a person on land and jumped out on them, heh
[17:36]	Andrew Linden:	Avil, I will probably try to fix it. I'll code a fix and then submit it for the other Linden's to reject.
[17:36]	Latif Khalifa:	lol
[17:36]	Andrew Linden:	I don't think any of the other Lindens care about that bug like I do... until I try to fix it.
[17:36]	Avil Creeggan:	I know the feeling.
[17:37]	reddot99 Republic:	i wouldnt be surprised if some make a use of it somewhere
[17:37]	Simon Linden:	There were some problems a few weeks ago about missing adjacent regions which we tracked down to clock differences between the 2 servers. I don't know if the real cause of that was ever discovered, however
[17:37]	xstorm Radek:	Andrew can you please tell me befor you try to fix it ? i need to stop building for a week
[17:37]	xstorm Radek:	:-)
[17:37]	Simon Linden:	I know the operations folks understand that issue and look for it if they get reports of missing regions
[17:37]	Latif Khalifa:	ntpd isn't always reliable unfortunatelly
[17:37]	Andrew Linden:	xstorm, when I have a fix ready it would be a month before it would get deployed.
[17:38]	Simon Linden:	yeah, they are all running ntpd
[17:38]	PulseBurst Flow:	seen ' missing adjacent regions ' a lot lately...just water but can get there by map-click.
[17:38]	xstorm Radek:	oh good
[17:38]	xstorm Radek:	last bug fix crash me for a week
[17:38]	reddot99 Republic:	i demand crashme return
[17:39]	xstorm Radek:	but we still love all your work :-)
[17:39]	Latif Khalifa:	Simon, you can pass info to the ops team, by default ntpd does not sync if the clocks are too far apart, it thinks it got the wrong time, but there is a way, command line option to tell it just to sync
[17:39]	Rex Cronon:	u have my support reddot:)
[17:39]	reddot99 Republic:	and i hear a camera
[17:39]	Patty1 Rosca:	i do to red
[17:39]	Andrew Linden:	Dan Linden manages the "Crash Me" region. I forget why he disabled it.
[17:40]	xstorm Radek:	Avil why do you keep taking photos ?
[17:40]	Charlette Proto:	sry
[17:40]	Arawn Spitteler:	I recall finding a way to crash it
[17:40]	Fred Rookstown:	Probably people crashing it too much.
[17:40]	reddot99 Republic:	so ask him about it?
[17:40]	PulseBurst Flow:	feature request - post in local chat "xxxx just took a snapshot. " ;)
[17:40]	Andrew Linden:	I think there are a bunch more crash fixes in server-1.27, and the crash rate of server-1.26 is the lowest it has ever been.
[17:40]	Simon Linden:	Latif - yeah, I think they have a way to fix it when it's discovered. The real problem is finding the servers, or figuring out what got them to that point in the first place
[17:40]	Avil Creeggan:	Alright, well... I'm going to leave. Thanks for your time, all.
[17:40]	Andrew Linden:	Perhaps it is time for Dan to bring Crash Me back online.
[17:40]	Simon Linden:	Bye, Avil
[17:40]	reddot99 Republic:	i'll agree about that,
[17:40]	xstorm Radek:	how odd
[17:41]	Rex Cronon:	peopole can u alt+printscrn just as easily:)
[17:41]	Latif Khalifa:	Simon, the think I describe is chaning ntpd configuration so the problem never happens again
[17:41]	Rex Cronon:	tc
[17:41]	reddot99 Republic:	simon, check goguen and cordova have a loss of connection everytime someone enters or exits
[17:41]	Charlette Proto:	thanks for the longhand Avil
[17:41]	xstorm Radek:	:-) my auto log keeps screen records just incase i get greif
[17:41]	Simon Linden:	ah, I see. I'll pass that along
[17:42]	Moon Metty:	:)
[17:42]	reddot99 Republic:	big lag delay for some reason
[17:42]	Fred Rookstown:	Ecounter it, as well.
[17:42]	Latif Khalifa:	yeah some sims simply freeze up for a second or two when someone enters them
[17:43]	reddot99 Republic:	phantom ninetails figured that was what caused it
[17:43]	xstorm Radek:	its a dns timeout
[17:43]	reddot99 Republic:	for a entire region?
[17:43]	Fred Rookstown:	If DNS timed out for a region, you probably couldn't reach it.
[17:43]	xstorm Radek:	i have seen a 1000 msping
[17:43]	Andrew Linden:	Simon, I wonder if the "two region on same host" extra lag on border crossing is caused by a traffic jam on the ethernet port -- burst of incomming and outgoing packets at the same time
[17:43]	Fred Rookstown:	In fact, I think LL sends IPs instead of hostnames, last I checked.
[17:44]	reddot99 Republic:	it's orced me offline a few times
[17:44]	reddot99 Republic:	i've seen 6000
[17:44]	xstorm Radek:	yikes
[17:44]	xstorm Radek:	server side ?
[17:44]	reddot99 Republic:	n,o, client
[17:45]	Psi Merlin:	I've seen periods when AVies entering / leaving are causing massive lag spikes on an otherwise healthy sim.
[17:45]	Simon Linden:	Andrew - might be, but since they are the same host, the throughput should be pretty good. It's definitely a resource contention issue - maybe network or cpu, or perhaps higher UDP loss
[17:45]	reddot99 Republic:	when my microwave turns on
[17:45]	Fred Rookstown:	Reddot's microwave is frying LL's downstream.
[17:45]	Morgaine Dinova:	DNS is only looked up once, then the IP address is used forever after (in every client I've seen), so don't see how DNS could affect it except on initial access.
[17:45]	reddot99 Republic:	lol
[17:45]	Latif Khalifa:	linux kernel is suppost to short circuit network going to its local eth interface
[17:46]	reddot99 Republic:	it is the initial accesss that causes the trouble
[17:46]	Andrew Linden:	well, I don't think the packets are destined for the lo interface, but to eth0:1
[17:46]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Due to some curl DNS bugs, the SL client does a DNS lookup every few seconds.
[17:46]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I've discoveerd that due to some curl DNS bugs that is.
[17:46]	Fred Rookstown:	cares is the DNS library for the viewer, is it not?
[17:46]	xstorm Radek:	yes thats true
[17:47]	Techwolf Lupindo:	curl with caers, yes.
[17:47]	xstorm Radek:	yep
[17:47]	Fred Rookstown:	Okay, so that bug should only affect HTTP(S) transactions.
[17:47]	Morgaine Dinova:	One thing that often catches people out is debug logging doing reverse DNS lookups. If there's a problem there with the reverse lookup, it can massively impact logging throughput and that in turn affect the rest of the client.
[17:48]	reddot99 Republic:	a lot more is moving to http though fred
[17:48]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Rebuilding curl with cares and not gnutls and not nss fixed the DNS lookup blockers.
[17:48]	Morgaine Dinova:	That's the reason why you can turn off reverse lookups for Apache logging.
[17:48]	xstorm Radek:	but is textures timeout or will not load it slows down load time or stops it
[17:48]	Latif Khalifa:	its off by default
[17:48]	xstorm Radek:	if
[17:48]	Twisted Laws:	sounds like the dns on the linux box needs to be set as a resolver, not pass thru
[17:49]	Twisted Laws:	for clients too
[17:49]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I use bind as the resolver due to most ISP DNS nameserver are borked half the time.
[17:50]	xstorm Radek:	true
[17:50]	Techwolf Lupindo:	echo "nameserver 127.0.0.1" > /etc/resolv.conf
[17:50]	Fred Rookstown:	4.2.2.4 is my backup nameserver. Works fine most of the time.
[17:50]	Fred Rookstown:	(It better, its a root nameserver)
[17:50]	Techwolf Lupindo:	lol, I use that too. 4.2.2.2
[17:50]	Latif Khalifa:	i don't know why would viewer be doing so many lookups, last time i checked it only ever needs login.agni.secondlife.com ip adress, the rest it gets as IP's from the sims
[17:51]	Arawn Spitteler wonders if a gloss could be attached to the log: I'm only resolving the fundamental difficulties of Life, the Universe and Everything, r3eally simple stuff
[17:51]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well production servers should basically never be doing reverse (or any other) DNS lookups on a regular basis in the main thread after the initial connection), that's the best rule. Asking for trouble otherwise.
[17:51]	Brandon Shinobu:	And I return
[17:51]	Fred Rookstown:	I don't use apache for my servers anymore, anyway. Ate up too much RAM, moved to lighttpd a few years back
[17:52]	Simon Linden:	FYI I just talked to some of the operations folks ... they've been seeing the disappearing region problem as well and we've got a jira for it. These cases don't seem to be related to the system time, however
[17:52]	Morgaine Dinova:	DNS lookups introduce coupling. One should reduce even internal coupling as much as possible. Coupling to an external party like a remote DNS server is simply a no no.
[17:52]	Mysphet Zilz:	5555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555
[17:52]	Rex Cronon:	btw, on a different track, in my opinion the following jira should be really fixed, else it might lead to big problems: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-13228
[17:52]	JIRA-helper: [#VWR-13228] Object can obtain and retain permissions indefinitely without avatar's knowledge and no way of knowing who took it - possible security issue
[17:52]	Baldi McMillan:	O.K.
[17:52]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I've tried to move to lighttpd, but it didn't have a few of apache feature that I was using.
[17:53]	Mysphet Zilz:	Sorry headset was resting on kbd.
[17:53]	Charlette Proto:	ah was that a bit of intelligent design Mysphet???????????
[17:53]	Fred Rookstown:	Mysphet, your 5 keys works fine.
[17:53]	reddot99 Republic:	lol
[17:53]	Mysphet Zilz:	A bit of getting up to take care of something.
[17:53]	Mysphet Zilz:	LOL
[17:53]	xstorm Radek:	stop the 5 spam unless your 5 years old now
[17:53]	Moon Metty:	or 55
[17:53]	Mysphet Zilz:	So I can do the 1 spam?
[17:54]	Charlette Proto:	religion always gets me worried especially when it comes to Apple products hehe
[17:54]	Latif Khalifa:	i had a cup sitting on my headset cable that has volume control... took me a while why my volume control kept going down automatically lol
[17:54]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah Rex, I've seen that one before. It is definitely in the list of bugs to fix.
[17:54]	Simon Linden:	I've done that by leaning on the headset volume control, and the world fades out
[17:54]	Techwolf Lupindo:	I know one person useing that exploit.
[17:54]	reddot99 Republic:	oh, wasnt there a map locking thing somewhere?
[17:54]	Mysphet Zilz:	Been there.
[17:54]	Latif Khalifa:	hehe
[17:55]	reddot99 Republic:	where it forces the map to be stuck open
[17:55]	xstorm Radek:	so the ghost sims that i have been seeing will get fix now befor any more sims are lost to it ?
[17:55]	Charlette Proto:	yup seen that too but not of late
[17:55]	Twisted Laws:	its in a popular attack hud now to get and retain perms
[17:56]	Latif Khalifa:	do sims use apache for caps requests?
[17:56]	Rex Cronon:	who i sto say that a new type of distorting animation might not show up, that can even affect attachments
[17:57]	Andrew Linden:	I think caps requests currently go through apache2-worker, which is a modified version of apache-ctl or something
[17:57]	reddot99 Republic:	animations are client side, cantaffect attachments
[17:57]	Morgaine Dinova:	Need to head off rapidly. see you folks, take care :-)
[17:58]	Morgaine Dinova waves
[17:58]	Fred Rookstown:	Bye
[17:58]	Brandon Shinobu:	Later Morg
[17:58]	reddot99 Republic:	went through this last week,
[17:58]	Simon Linden:	Bye
[17:58]	Charlette Proto:	byee Morg
[17:58]	Moon Metty:	bye morg
[17:58]	Baldi McMillan:	Take care!
[17:58]	Latif Khalifa:	tc morg
[17:58]	Rex Cronon:	u want to bet on that?
[17:58]	Rex Cronon:	tc
[17:58]	xstorm Radek:	Andrew do you remember some time back about the ghost island ?
[17:58]	reddot99 Republic:	yes i would
[17:58]	Moon Metty:	oh yes, Ilyea
[17:58]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, I vaguely remember "Ghost Island"
[17:58]	Moon Metty:	or something like that
[17:58]	Rex Cronon:	lol. remember that:)
[17:58]	xstorm Radek:	will this fix all this mess ?
[17:59]	Andrew Linden:	remind me the problem with "Ghost Island"
[17:59]	Andrew Linden:	it showed up on the map and wasn't available for TP?
[17:59]	xstorm Radek:	well it started with 1 sim over lap in another sim then 2 sim have gone ghost
[18:00]	Brandon Shinobu:	Gah
[18:00]	Brandon Shinobu:	Sorry about that
[18:00]	Rex Cronon:	tc morgane
[18:00]	xstorm Radek:	the london uk park
[18:00]	xstorm Radek:	and mayfair at times
[18:00]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Langarleers at work there?
[18:00]	xstorm Radek:	they are online but you can no walk in to them or see them
[18:01]	Andrew Linden:	oh yeah, I wonder if those were caused by the ntp issue
[18:01]	reddot99 Republic:	i do have a request, watch combat huds for new exploits,
[18:01]	xstorm Radek:	and more and more sims are doing that
[18:01]	xstorm Radek:	so it will be fix ?
[18:01]	Andrew Linden:	Simon, who are the DNOC or OPS crew who were working/speculating on the ntp issue?
[18:02]	Rex Cronon:	it seems that chat gets to me out of order:(
[18:02]	xstorm Radek:	ops :-)
[18:02]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Network Time Protucule?
[18:02]	Simon Linden:	I'll shoot you the transcript...
[18:02]	xstorm Radek:	hoe did you hear about that rex ?
[18:02]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, NTP = network time protocol (I think)
[18:02]	Moon Metty:	are more adjacent regions on the same host now?
[18:03]	reddot99 Republic:	speaking of time,
[18:03]	Rex Cronon:	thank you:)
[18:03]	Rex Cronon:	hear about what, xstorm?
[18:03]	reddot99 Republic:	look at this bug on a clock,
[18:03]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Ah..if the server are running it, that can open up a few issues. That port should be block from outside access.
[18:03]	Andrew Linden:	Ah yes, it is 18:00 so we'll have to end this hour.
[18:03]	Andrew Linden:	Thanks for attending everyone.
[18:03]	xstorm Radek:	so if we file a report about the sim some one will fix them ?
[18:03]	Brandon Shinobu:	Thank you for your help Andrew :)
[18:03]	Moon Metty:	and thank you Andrew and Simon
[18:03]	Baldi McMillan:	Thanks for havin us!
[18:03]	Baldi McMillan:	;-)
[18:03]	Charlette Proto:	byee Andrew
[18:03]	Latif Khalifa:	Andrew, Simon, thank you for your time :)
[18:04]	reddot99 Republic:	thanks for putting up with us all, lol
[18:04]	Twisted Laws:	thanks and 1.27 on beta seems to be working well so far
[18:04]	Fred Rookstown:	Back to the trenches.
[18:04]	Moon Metty:	btw, ny friend Pinoh is able to leave the region again
[18:04]	Tegg Bode:	Yeps thanks for all Andrew & Simon ㋡
[18:04]	Latif Khalifa:	yes 1.27 seems pretty stable so far, no issues found
[18:04]	Baldi McMillan:	You guys ROCK!
[18:04]	Baldi McMillan:	;-)
[18:04]	Rex Cronon:	nice having some lindens available:)
[18:04]	Moon Metty:	yes, 1.27 is friendly
[18:04]	xstorm Radek:	lindens ?
[18:04]	Simon Linden:	Thanks everyone for coming, see you next time
[18:04]	Moon Metty:	thank you Simon :)
[18:05]	xstorm Radek:	i see no s
[18:05]	Baldi McMillan:	Take care all!
[18:05]	reddot99 Republic:	any clue when lltextbox gets implemented?
[18:05]	Rex Cronon:	i am not talking about the currency used in sl:)
[18:05]	xstorm Radek:	tank you Andrew : and Simon
[18:05]	Rex Cronon:	tc
[18:05]	Arawn Spitteler:	What side's the hang upo? It would be really handy for me.
[18:05]	Rex Cronon:	bye andrew, simon
[18:05]	Simon Linden:	Bye for now
[18:05]	Charlette Proto:	byee Andrew& Simon
[18:05]	xstorm Radek:	yes ya was Rex
[18:05]	Arawn Spitteler:	It should just be a client side fix
[18:05]	xstorm Radek:	;-)
[18:06]	Andrew Linden:	What is llTextBox()?
[18:06]	Andrew Linden:	Arawn, do you have a jira # for reference?
[18:06]	Moon Metty:	it's an unimplemented feature that escaoped
[18:06]	Rex Cronon:	shows a input textbox
[18:06]	Charlette Proto:	anyone seen the blue dialog box attacks???
[18:06]	Rex Cronon:	it should
[18:06]	Arawn Spitteler:	It should be in the Wiki for LSL, like Dialog, but more liberty
[18:06]	reddot99 Republic:	like dialogs except you can type instead of picking a button
[18:07]	Brandon Shinobu:	I know that one
[18:07]	Charlette Proto:	a mass of dialogs that fry the viewer
[18:07]	Brandon Shinobu:	It's one I've been wanting for a while.
[18:07]	Rex Cronon:	when charlette?
[18:07]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... requires both server and client-side work.
[18:07]	Brandon Shinobu:	I'll nab it for you Andrew
[18:07]	reddot99 Republic:	that's fixed in 1.23 veiwer
[18:07]	Brandon Shinobu:	Qarl said it was only awaiting client side support
[18:07]	Charlette Proto:	is there a way to stop (throttle) theblue dialogs?
[18:07]	reddot99 Republic:	charlote
[18:07]	Rex Cronon:	mute the owner
[18:08]	reddot99 Republic:	ask fred about that, he rigged something up
[18:08]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, it should be possible to throttle the blue dialogs. I think a few have been throttled in the maint-server-* branches I've got. I'm not sure if that one has been ported for server-1.27 yet.
[18:08]	Charlette Proto:	mute does nothing when this form of dialog is used
[18:08]	Brandon Shinobu:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-8759
[18:08]	JIRA-helper: [#VWR-8759] llTextBox in client Non-Functional - Functionality Patch Attached
[18:08]	Brandon Shinobu:	And, an opensource guy attached a patch that made it work, I believe
[18:08]	Andrew Linden:	ok thanks for the reference
[18:09]	Brandon Shinobu:	"Qarl Linden added a comment - 26/Aug/08 11:13 AM
	this function is waiting on client-side support (it has never worked.) it accidentally leaked-out - so please don't use it. sorry for the confusion."
[18:09]	Andrew Linden:	Gottta go.
[18:09]	Charlette Proto:	i think serverside throttle would be the only fix; 1.27 should have it
[18:09]	Rex Cronon:	weired. i can no longer turn on/off impostors
[18:09]	reddot99 Republic:	oh, that could be put into 1.23 still
[18:09]	Moon Metty:	bye Andrew :)
[18:09]	xstorm Radek:	do not worry Charlette i muted you long time back