User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 Jan 08

Transcript of Zero Linden's office hours:

[13:00]	Squirrel Wood:	Hello Zero!
[13:00]	Zero Linden:	Good afternoon all
[13:00]	Harleen Gretzky:	Howdy Zero
[13:01]	Zha Ewry:	Afternoon Zero
[13:01]	Hiro Market:	evening zero
[13:01]	Teravus Ousley:	Evening
[13:01]	Zero Linden:	Hope you all had a fine and relaxing holiday
[13:01]	Brigit Carver now has that "Zero to Hero" song from Aladdin stuck in her head
[13:01]	Teravus Ousley:	Same to you sir
[13:01]	Zha Ewry:	Probably more relaxed than the Linden Opps team ;-)
[13:01]	Brigit Carver:	pleasureable day to say the least
[13:02]	Zero Linden:	I feel deeply for their upset holiday..... wadda pain!
[13:02]	Arawn Spitteler organized a Christmas Eve Comisseration, at Spirit City
[13:02]	Tao Takashi:	Happy new Linden year :)
[13:02]	Zha Ewry:	Yeah, could not have been fun
[13:03]	Squirrel Wood:	Happy new http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/01/08/new-policy-regarding-in-world-banks/ year ^^
[13:03]	Zero Linden wonders if Linden New Year should be a different date - like Lunar New Year, Jewish New Year, etc....
[13:03]	Brigit Carver wonders who would actually trust in world banks in the first place
[13:03]	Arawn Spitteler:	That would be the SL Birthday PArty
[13:03]	Xavier Irwin just came for the zero linden teddy bear :))
[13:03]	Hiro Market:	augustine calender maybe?
[13:04]	Hiro Market:	that would make christmas just about now
[13:04]	Zha Ewry:	So.. Zero.. We had a nice discussion about login.. yet again.. on the client side
[13:04]	Brigit Carver:	I'd like Halloween or Samhain to be the new, New Year....because then we get candy and booze at once
[13:04]	Zha Ewry:	And.. some discussion about trying to understand how the various connection between sim and clients entangle when Tess and Periapse showed up this afternoon at the AWGrroupy discussion
[13:05]	Zha Ewry:	Poor saij has been slowly prying that apart and discovering that everyone has a slightly different guess as to how it works, how it is supposed to work, and what's going to happen to it next
[13:05]	Tao Takashi:	the new Linden year is probably at the sl birthday ;-)
[13:06]	Zero Linden:	June 3rd?
[13:06]	Saijanai Kuhn pitties himself
[13:06]	Saijanai Kuhn:	pities?
[13:06]	Saijanai Kuhn:	pity, pities whatever
[13:06]	Arawn Spitteler:	June 3rd would mark which Year of Linden?
[13:06]	Zero Linden:	Zha - so, were Tess and Peri able to help? and I hope you're forming a good relationship with them
[13:06]	Zha Ewry:	Tess was very helpful
[13:07]	Zha Ewry:	And. she's promised to get some doc from the Linden University on the message system out on the wiki, which woudl be uber cool
[13:07]	Saijanai Kuhn:	She's been trying to help me too. Its just hard to formulate the question when you're at tool rudimentary a level
[13:07]	Zha Ewry:	Si Linden still looking at month end for a next face to face, btw?
[13:08]	Zha Ewry:	*Is. (Sheesh, take a week off from typing, and look what happens)
[13:08]	Zero Linden:	It'll be LY6
[13:08]	Zero Linden:	to use the conventional-but-non-intuitive-to-an-engineer method of naming the years from 1
[13:08]	Zha Ewry snarks. No Zero year.
[13:09]	Zha Ewry:	Hardly fair
[13:09]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Anno Zero?
[13:09]	Arawn Spitteler thinks engineers should learn to use Ordinal as well as Cardinal Coordinate systems
[13:10]	Zha Ewry:	Ordinal, Cardinal, why not just use a Papal one, and be infallible?
[13:10]	Masaw Umaga:	Paypal?
[13:10]	Zero Linden:	Then engineers would have to learn the difference between ∞ and ω
[13:11]	Zha Ewry:	Nunsense
[13:11]	Hiro Market:	we should have it chinese-like but update - year of the disk drive, year of the cpu
[13:11]	Zero Linden:	Yikes - okay well, I don't know if we can get a face-to-face in a month
[13:11]	Zha Ewry nods
[13:11]	Squirrel Wood:	Ler's just do years in binary :p
[13:11]	Zha Ewry:	Was on the caldendar
[13:11]	Squirrel Wood:	101 ^^
[13:12]	Masaw Umaga:	year zero is jesus birth?
[13:12]	Zha Ewry:	(And I think, on your wiki page)
[13:12]	Squirrel Wood:	or 110
[13:12]	Goldie Katsu:	not hex?
[13:12]	Zero Linden:	Here's the state of things (and don't let me hear I've never been open):
[13:12]	Zha Ewry:	No, that's not a complaint I'd make
[13:12]	Goldie Katsu:	oh no, tht won't work because then all the years will be hexed.
[13:12]	Zero Linden:	At present for Q1 I've got engineer commitment to do Agend Domain / Region Domain style login
[13:12]	Zha Ewry nods
[13:12]	Zero Linden:	I know, I know, one on top of the other
[13:12]	Zha Ewry:	We'd love to be able to do that in parallel on openSim as Well
[13:13]	Zero Linden:	but really, the stuff last quarter is about authentication - and the domain stuff is about
[13:13]	Arawn Spitteler recalls: Anno Domini 1 began with the Martyrdom of the Innocents
[13:13]	Zero Linden:	authorization after the authentication
[13:13]	Tao Takashi:	and I would like to use my login server code to test against that, too :-)
[13:13]	Zero Linden:	SO - not really redoing, it just geting the rest
[13:13]	Zero Linden:	Now - One thing I haven't gotten clear agreement on is to how to make this stuff testable in an interoperable
[13:13]	Zha Ewry:	What happens after the token is passed in?
[13:13]	Zero Linden:	way with Tao and anyone else
[13:13]	Zha Ewry nods
[13:14]	Tao Takashi:	I was thinking about doing some proxy but I am not sure how this might look like with the new login
[13:14]	Saijanai Kuhn:	its not an issue with the loign, its an issue with CAPs
[13:14]	Zha Ewry:	Things like gettign a toy grid to test on, would be nice.
[13:14]	Zero Linden:	Path A: build a publically accessible development grid and do it there
[13:14]	Tao Takashi:	well, if i'd go the simple legaly-login caps route it could work
[13:14]	Tao Takashi:	because it really just gives the xml-rpc host then
[13:14]	Zero Linden:	Path B: really allow real SL avatars to use the protocol to sign into OpenSim or similar external grids
[13:15]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Tao, have you worked with EventQueueGet?
[13:15]	Tao Takashi:	I think, haven't really though about this further
[13:15]	Tao Takashi:	nope
[13:15]	Zero Linden:	only there would be very little trust at this point - so you wouldn't get your inventory there, say
[13:15]	Zha Ewry:	Well, B) would be just for authntication?
[13:15]	Saijanai Kuhn:	I'd say work in parallel
[13:15]	Zha Ewry:	Because, you'd have no way of even fetching a asset, let along trusting it
[13:15]	Zero Linden:	Well, imagine B is like an Agent Domain that has no trust of the region domain, but will let you go there
[13:16]	Zha Ewry:	right
[13:16]	Zha Ewry:	A good step
[13:16]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Get authentication working on toy pseudo-grids using scripts then migrate the testing of aunentication to OPenSIm/SL crossing
[13:16]	Tao Takashi:	so what would actually be the first small step? doing the legaly-url thing you mentioned before?
[13:16]	Zha Ewry:	:No fake Zha Ewrys on OpenSim using shared name space
[13:16]	Tao Takashi:	and then building more services from there?
[13:16]	Zero Linden:	so it will give out public details of the AV - but nothing that would be a possible permissions violation
[13:16]	Zero Linden:	Right
[13:16]	Tao Takashi:	because this does not involve any information whatsoever then anyway
[13:16]	Zero Linden:	Now, the work inside Linden, the engineers REALLY want to do this work as a deployable project - i.e. live on Agni
[13:17]	Tao Takashi:	but is of course also the most boring first case ;-)
[13:17]	Zha Ewry:	I'd be willing to host some cross grid test sime out in Open network space
[13:17]	Zha Ewry:	*sims
[13:17]	Tao Takashi:	how would a 3rd party agent domain could work with that?
[13:17]	Zero Linden:	that is good in generall, but of course makes the first steps be more cautious
[13:17]	Zha Ewry:	We need to get some public testing places setup so we get in the habit of thinkign about it
[13:17]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Zero, I don't know the internals of how things are done, but my intuition says you eed to have a scripted fake working and a procedure to work with that fake for every new step, before you start working on a real grid
[13:17]	Zero Linden:	Tao - well, if that protocol for login is working - then I could use the viewer to login into an opensim agent domain and then an opensim region -
[13:18]	Zha Ewry:	Right.. And we need to do that
[13:18]	Zero Linden:	and the opensim region should notice that the av is from its "trusted" agent domain
[13:18]	Zero Linden:	and vice-versa and let all in, no?
[13:18]	Tao Takashi:	ah, ok. With opensim it makes sense :)
[13:18]	Zero Linden:	Now, I admit, I don't think LL is going to get the region side working in Q1
[13:18]	Tao Takashi:	with the SL grid maybe not so much ;-)
[13:18]	Tao Takashi:	at least for now
[13:18]	Zero Linden:	because if we do it live on Agni, that is a big hurdle
[13:19]	Zero Linden:	whereas if we have a dev. grid for just this, we can have sims that accept external agent domain agents
[13:19]	Zero Linden:	and say "what the hell" and let 'em in
[13:19]	Tao Takashi:	well, I think that would be good as a first step
[13:19]	Zha Ewry:	I think, realistically, Zero, we're going to need that test dev gird sooner ot later
[13:19]	Tao Takashi:	so agent domain devs can check interoperability with both opensim and LL's sims
[13:19]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Zero take a step back and get things like Tao's faux server working using he proposed protocols before you even oepn it up to a dev-grid
[13:19]	Zero Linden:	I'm trying to wrangle a separate group of engineers (two) who would develop and run such a grid and further
[13:19]	Zha Ewry:	I can't imagine that the first few iterations of stuff is going to be very smooth and safe
[13:19]	Zero Linden:	be the dedicated technical resource for your folks
[13:20]	Tao Takashi:	I also think we should start with a dev grid ;-)
[13:20]	Zero Linden:	I am pushing for that - but again, it really needs 2 engineers to make it fly
[13:20]	Zero Linden:	I want there to be people in IRC for you folks
[13:21]	Zero Linden:	Meanwhile, just so you know, I'm working with the marketing folks to ensure that there is a viable business case around all of this work....
[13:22]	Zha Ewry:	Well, we also need to have some buy in, on the OpenSim comunity side. There's been a lot of unhappiness about the amount of pain we've been through trying to make sure that the client can get to non Linden Servers, and eventually
[13:22]	Zero Linden:	best to keep the board of directors assured that this has an upside for the business
[13:22]	Zha Ewry:	things like non linden search URLs, and such get passed to clients snaely
[13:23]	Zha Ewry:	Yeah, staying in buesinss has it's upside
[13:23]	Zero Linden:	snaily? safely? sanely?
[13:24]	Zero Linden:	I like snaily... but then I was always a fan of RacerX Gullwing....
[13:25]	Zha Ewry grins
[13:25]	Zha Ewry:	Sanely.
[13:25]	Tao Takashi:	I hope you will also keep us uptodate with the business side :)
[13:25]	Zha Ewry:	Tho, this becomes a rosarch test for people
[13:25]	Zha Ewry:	See what they think I might be saying
[13:25]	Zero Linden:	Meanwhile, I'd like to bring up a question that some people internally, looking over the technical plans have brought up
[13:25]	Tao Takashi:	I am at least also interested in what the business model is after opening up
[13:26]	Tao Takashi:	and maybe also ask the marketing people about a better name for that project instead of SLGAWG as well as a better URL ;-)
[13:26]	Zha Ewry:	Ooo
[13:26]	Zero Linden:	Tao - I'm going to try to be as open about that as possible, which in most businesses would be "not at all", but at Linden, I think that I can be pretty open about it
[13:26]	Zha Ewry:	Questions for us?
[13:26]	Tao Takashi:	it really makes telling people about it easier
[13:26]	Tao Takashi:	of course only as much as you can tell :)
[13:26]	Zero Linden:	Yes - so here's the scenario that a very technically savvy board member brought up
[13:27]	Tao Takashi:	and I think we all appreciate the openess of LL
[13:27]	Zero Linden:	So - say we enable all of what we've been thinking about
[13:27]	Zha Ewry:	Dangerous, having tech savvy board members :-)
[13:27]	Tao Takashi:	at some point they might start coding ;-)
[13:27]	Zha Ewry listens intently
[13:27]	Zero Linden:	And say that we really enable that anyone can, like hosting a web server, put a simulator on line in their garage connected to their DSL
[13:28]	Zha Ewry:	Which we promptly kill
[13:28]	Zha Ewry:	The DSL line
[13:28]	Zero Linden:	and pay someone some small yearly fee to have it be on a spot on the map (like one pays for DNS)
[13:28]	Tao Takashi:	well, imagine a time when there is no difference in up- and downlink anymore.. :-)
[13:29]	Tao Takashi:	actually this might change the internet landscape quite a bit I'd think
[13:29]	Zero Linden:	Their risk - no one is expecting this sim to be a great performer or a place for 100 people to gather
[13:29]	Saijanai Kuhn:	or a grid that exists only on a LAN like 99% of Croquet worlds
[13:29]	Tao Takashi:	well, it's the same risk as hosting your own webserver in your garage
[13:29]	Zero Linden:	it is like - hey I can put up some land so why not - if my little blog^h^h^h^hregion gets hot I'll move it a real hoster
[13:29]	Zero Linden:	So - say this all exists
[13:30]	Jiz Source:	hi all... i'm reporting from the BDRA confrence in the UK :)
[13:30]	Zero Linden:	And I, "Josephine Avatar" (we'll just call her JoAv for short!)
[13:30]	Zero Linden:	has some no-copy items in my inventory
[13:31]	Zero Linden:	and I go to "Sam's Garage Sim" (or SGS)
[13:31]	Zero Linden:	Is it okay that when I try to rez. my no-copy castle, my agent domain (that JoAv pays to hold her account)
[13:31]	Zero Linden:	says "no way, honey, you don't know what goes on in *this* sim"
[13:31]	Zero Linden:	?
[13:32]	Zha Ewry:	Heh.
[13:32]	Zha Ewry:	I think among other things, only if there is a TOS between theSGS and Linden
[13:32]	Zero Linden:	and does it make a difference if it is an object I'm trying to rez. or if it is an attachment (like JoAv's L$10k hair?)
[13:32]	Zero Linden is feeling his inner drag-queen
[13:33]	Saijanai Kuhn:	LL doesn't have an oobligation to keep the LL TOS intact for someone going outside the Second Life grid
[13:33]	Goldie Katsu giggles at Zero
[13:33]	Tao Takashi:	wasn't this the main issue discussed some time back on sldev?
[13:33]	Zero Linden:	Well, I don't think that LL (or GoDaddyVirtualRegion) would be willing to trust Sam that much, given what he is willing to pay
[13:34]	Harleen Gretzky:	Attachments should be OK, since they stay with the agent
[13:34]	Zha Ewry:	LL has an obligation to try and respect the rights grants of the
[13:34]	Tao Takashi:	and ideas of certificates and the like came up IIRC
[13:34]	Zha Ewry:	content creators who signed up to LL
[13:34]	Zero Linden:	Right - So I know how to do it with certs....
[13:34]	Tao Takashi:	and a way to say "only allow this object on this sim/grid/everywhere"
[13:34]	Zero Linden:	But I don't expect Sam to pay for a cert. like that - much like he won't pay for a root-signed SSL cert.
[13:34]	Saijanai Kuhn:	attachments are no more an agent thing then anything else. they're still exposed to the new grid
[13:35]	Zha Ewry nods
[13:35]	Zero Linden:	Well - in the new world they could be if this were important - which it might be
[13:35]	Harleen Gretzky:	BUt they are in teh agent's inventory,
[13:35]	Zha Ewry:	He can pay for an SSL signed cert that Linden signs tho?
[13:35]	Goldie Katsu:	How would editing work - if I edited an attachment - do the edits go through the sim or client to asset db?
[13:35]	Zero Linden:	for example, if the scripts are run int he agent domain... then they are different
[13:36]	Zero Linden:	Right now, attachemetns are essentially rez'd like anything else
[13:36]	Zero Linden:	So here are some thoughts I have
[13:36]	Saijanai Kuhn:	so the agent domain might handle scripting for attachments?
[13:36]	Saijanai Kuhn marvels at the new wrinkles
[13:36]	Tao Takashi:	I'd think that the region domain should do the scripting as probably some in-world interaction is part of it
[13:36]	Zero Linden:	1) Except for scripts, everything else is, as we know, essentially copyable since if you have to give it to the viewer, then users have the bits
[13:37]	Zero Linden:	Tao- right it would be a pain, we'd have to create protocol toallow the scripts to run in the agent domian but sense and interct with teh region
[13:37]	Zha Ewry:	Well, as many scripts as we get off the region simulators, the happier the handoff between them is, but.. the more traffic to wehever the sscripts run
[13:37]	Zha Ewry:	You get a huge benefit from not having to movbe state between sims
[13:37]	Zero Linden:	doable, but a lot of new protocol ---- but allows scripts, the only 100% enforceable property to remain in the agent domain for your attachments
[13:37]	Zero Linden:	(oy!)
[13:37]	Tao Takashi:	actually it reminds me quite a lot about the resarch about intelligent and moveable agents we had back then in university
[13:38]	Saijanai Kuhn:	wrinkles on my wrinkles
[13:38]	Zha Ewry:	Heh
[13:38]	Zha Ewry:	Telescript
[13:38]	Tao Takashi:	little programs which can move from computer to computer and do some stuff (instead of remotely calling an API)
[13:38]	Hiro Market:	does the sim see the full details of any object running on the sim - i.e. can SGS code be hacked to copy anything anyone wears or rezzes when they log onto the SGS sim?
[13:38]	Tao Takashi:	Back then I wondered what the benefit might actually be
[13:38]	Saijanai Kuhn:	TObjects, in a sense
[13:38]	Tao Takashi:	now I guess I know ;-)
[13:38]	Zha Ewry wrote some telescript code in magiccsap back a decade ago
[13:38]	Zero Linden:	Wow - I had many friends at General Magic....
[13:38]	Zha Ewry:	90% of it is bad, Tao. Security, bandwidth, etc.
[13:39]	Tao Takashi:	well, the research in our department was mostly Java based I think
[13:39]	Teravus Ousley:	once scripts are converted to mono, that might be less of a problem.. with compiled code.. share the compiled code with the new simulator.. but don't share the source, parhaps.
[13:39]	Zero Linden:	Hiro - yes
[13:39]	Tao Takashi:	and they never could tell me a good use case ;-)
[13:39]	Zero Linden:	Hiro - and pretty trivially too
[13:39]	Tao Takashi:	and I indeed was more worried about security etc.. why would I want to let other people run code on my server?
[13:39]	Tao Takashi:	of course attachments seem to be similar
[13:39]	Zero Linden:	No, compiled CIL code (what mono runs) is pretty easy to reverse compile
[13:40]	Zero Linden:	Well, indeed, SGS may not ALLOW scripts
[13:40]	Zero Linden:	but - evenso, we still have the no-copy issue
[13:40]	Zero Linden:	ignoring the "it's in my viewer so I can reverse engineer it and get the prims and re-build it" issue
[13:41]	Zero Linden:	So, the question is
[13:41]	Tao Takashi:	so the question is then: should this always be forbidden or should there be some rules for when it might be allowed
[13:41]	Zero Linden:	if we assume that SGS has no trust cert. (he isn't going to put up a bond and be subject to auditing)
[13:41]	Tao Takashi:	e.g. there is trust between that agent and region domain
[13:41]	Tao Takashi:	however that looks
[13:42]	Tao Takashi:	and of course another questin is how much control a content creator might have over it
[13:42]	Zero Linden:	and that JoAv's agent domain won't rez any no-copy items
[13:42]	Tao Takashi:	like "same sim, same grid, same universe"
[13:42]	Zero Linden:	does that make this whole plan useless?
[13:42]	Zero Linden:	Will it be too unusable?
[13:42]	Tao Takashi:	maybe universally copyable items might be more expensive
[13:42]	Zero Linden:	Will folks be too unhappy?
[13:42]	Zha Ewry:	I think, that we will end up with a rnage of options
[13:43]	Saijanai Kuhn:	I've been describing things in terms of a trust web
[13:43]	Zha Ewry:	But.. If you want to host serious people, and thier content, either they have to buy content whcih the creator is willing to sell for general distribution
[13:43]	Saijanai Kuhn:	A trusts B trusts C . C trusts D but A and B do not
[13:43]	Zha Ewry:	or you need a trust web
[13:43]	Zero Linden:	Right - the board member points out that existing trust webs haven't worked out so well for most users!
[13:43]	Zha Ewry:	And.. Lots of the use cases, are probably more in between
[13:43]	Zha Ewry:	Corporation A, wishes to hosty some content on its own. (happy to pay for a cert)
[13:44]	Zha Ewry:	and allow people to come visit
[13:44]	Zero Linden:	I'm also thinking that it may not matter except for attachments
[13:44]	Goldie Katsu:	That is because not all people do the same level of authentication before giving certification.
[13:44]	Hiro Market:	In practise wouldn't most ppl running a region use a host, not a garage, and you could ensure they were trusted
[13:44]	Zero Linden:	I mean I go to other people's land to see stuff - like art galleries, performances, etc... - and I rarely rez stuf
[13:44]	Zero Linden:	except of course my attachments
[13:44]	Tao Takashi:	even if I host it somewhere I might be able to use my own copy-everything server code
[13:44]	Goldie Katsu:	(How about the Thawte WOT - they actually have a fairly structured procedure for the WOT)
[13:45]	Saijanai Kuhn:	could have a new kind of permssions: grid level building
[13:45]	Zero Linden:	Right - only in practice it hasn't caught on
[13:45]	Zero Linden:	Okay- but I'm hearing that in this group, you all seem fairly confident that some set of web-of-trust, certificates and/or heirarchical permissions will work
[13:46]	Tao Takashi:	well, I am not so sure ;-) it might depend on how it's setup
[13:46]	Zha Ewry:	I think we will have all of the above
[13:46]	Zha Ewry:	From wild-west sims
[13:46]	Tao Takashi:	but I also think that I have to think about this a bit more
[13:46]	Zha Ewry:	with no trust, which people go to anyway,
[13:46]	Zha Ewry:	to trust based on expensive certs
[13:46]	Tao Takashi:	I first would also like to write down the use cases with all permutations of region and agent domain setups
[13:46]	Saijanai Kuhn:	or trust based on entirely closed build-only sims hosted on the clietn's computer
[13:46]	Zero Linden:	Can you see why I'm thinking we may have to do scripts in attachements specially?
[13:47]	Saijanai Kuhn:	yeah...
[13:47]	Saijanai Kuhn:	wrinkles on wrinkles on wrinkles
[13:47]	Zha Ewry:	Oh, my yes
[13:47]	Zero Linden:	JoAv can go to SGS and not mind that she can't rez some stuff --- but go without her scripted rhinestone disco-belt? NO WAY!
[13:47]	Tao Takashi:	I wonder if those scripts can run in the client but it might be the same problem actually
[13:48]	Tao Takashi:	and regarding running scripts on the agent domain: Why should I trust that agent domain as a scripter?
[13:48]	Tao Takashi:	and why should I trust that agent domain to not steal that hair somebody buys from me?
[13:49]	Saijanai Kuhn:	well, who aawns that agent domain?
[13:49]	Zero Linden notes: disco-belt and "disco belt" both return no hits at all in internal search --- content creators get cracking! There is a niche to fill!
[13:49]	Saijanai Kuhn:	I would think the grid you loginto usually would
[13:49]	Tao Takashi:	that agent domain might as well be hosted by myself. Just because I can
[13:50]	Saijanai Kuhn:	so you log into LL's grid, you get your avater hosted on LL's agent server
[13:50]	Tao Takashi:	I think these questions might also depend on how the world will develop.. Will LL always run the biggest grid and act as e.g. the SL DNS?
[13:50]	Tao Takashi:	or will it be more more or less big grids
[13:50]	Saijanai Kuhn:	you login to Joe's Garage, and you don't get quite the same level of support
[13:50]	Tao Takashi:	I might pay LL to be allowed to login with my agent domain to their grids
[13:51]	Tao Takashi:	and I might get a TOS which does tell me not to copy objects
[13:51]	Zha Ewry:	I think that you'll have a range
[13:51]	Zha Ewry:	Some people will sign legal agreements,a nd get certs to be trusted, and.. others will run totally open grids
[13:51]	Tao Takashi:	probably we should think for every possible scenario
[13:51]	Zha Ewry:	And.. we have to allow for the whole range
[13:51]	Tao Takashi:	that's why I would like to write all this down before thinking about it more ;-)
[13:51]	Zero Linden:	Note: I'm really committed that even if you have to have accoutns in two or three agent domains (for these trust issues) that you still appear and act as a single identity
[13:52]	Teravus Ousley:	well, how about a remoting event model.. it would be slower..
[13:52]	Zha Ewry:	Oh. absolutely
[13:52]	Zha Ewry:	Being able to sperate trust from identity, is a big deal
[13:52]	Teravus Ousley:	.. where the script would fire events
[13:53]	Tao Takashi:	maybe the agent domain should then not allow to actually connect to that SGS
[13:53]	Tao Takashi:	but that would be bad aswell
[13:53]	Saijanai Kuhn:	if you have one avatar named SJK, no matter where you login, you have an avatar named SJK. However, if you login from Joe's garage, LL isn't obligated to provide JOe's garage's Agent server with all info
[13:53]	Teravus Ousley:	.. if it was events that were fired, the simulator would be the one doing the trusting.
[13:53]	Zha Ewry:	Zero, I'd be glad to put up a trust grid on the wiki
[13:53]	Zha Ewry:	with some of the cases outlined
[13:53]	Tao Takashi:	Has it become faster btw? :)
[13:54]	Zha Ewry:	A bit better
[13:54]	Zha Ewry:	Not stellar, tho
[13:54]	Saijanai Kuhn:	They divided jira into its own physical server, I believe
[13:55]	Zero Linden:	Zha - that would be lovely
[13:56]	Zero Linden:	All - Alas I now have a regularly schedule meeting right after this - so I'm going to go now.
[13:56]	Tao Takashi:	and I will have a look at the Cisco event :)
[13:56]	Zha Ewry:	OK
[13:56]	Zero Linden:	Thanks again for being here - I really appreciate you all coming and participating!
[13:56]	Tao Takashi:	thanks for hosting, Zero! :)
[13:56]	Zha Ewry:	I'll crank that up
[13:56]	Zero Linden:	See folks on Thursday
[13:56]	Zha Ewry:	And.. lety us know about FF thoughts
[13:56]	Harleen Gretzky:	BYE zERO
[13:56]	Zero Linden:	Adios
[13:56]	Zha Ewry:	*f2F*
[13:56]	Zha Ewry:	Thanks as always
[13:56]	Jason Swain:	Thanks again Zero
[13:56]	Leffard Lassard:	Thanks.
[13:56]	Hiro Market:	ta zero