Mesh/Archive/2011-08-22

Agenda

1. How to make terrain with Mesh - Jessica Chung
2. If debug setting "RenderVolumeLODFactor" is not volatile (hence not just a builders' tool), does it mean there is no reference for LOD planning? [Bunnie Mills]
3. Some private estate owners have started implementing policies to prohibit the use of mesh on their land in order to keep the experience enjoyable for users of legacy viewers who see mesh items only as random polygons. While it is entirely within their rights to do so, it also creates a conflict with Linden Lab's Policy on Third-Party Viewers which states that the use of unsupported viewers must not be detrimental to anyone else's Second Life experience. Since most SL residents are not familiar with the technical details of mesh, it appears to be only a matter of time until people get banned for taking mesh attachments into regions where they are not allowed. Are there any plans to resolve this conflict, e.g. by stopping the server from sending mesh assets to viewers that cannot render them? [Masami Kuramoto]
4. Can someone here please explain to me why I just worked my ass off for 2 weeks on a project trying to keep it under 32 prims physically. Finally get it working tonight my physics weight is 31.9. PE is 363. I turn physics on and the physics weight jumps up to f***ing 915..?!? which puts the entire object to 916 PE.... what is the point of it listing as 31.9 physics when clearly for some reason its simply NOT? all of the mesh physics models combined are under 200 polygons. Really losing any hope of mesh what so ever (Moo Spyker)
5. There has been some confusion over which LL Convex Decomposition Stub Library TPV's & Open Source developers should be building from to build viewers either with or without a completed stub convex decomposition library. Currently there are at least two & possibly more including snowstorm development team libraries containing llconvexdecomposition libraries on the LL Bitbucket Repository. Can you please clarify to TPV & Open Source Viewer Developers which library is 1) most up to date, 2) the correct stub library to build from that will build successfully with or without a the stub library completed? [Jusden Jonstone]
6. Will Linked Rigged Mesh be supported? Currently theres a critical bug that causes a Update to a linked rigged mesh to revert all attached rigged mesh to the updated rigged mesh's upload default for a single game frame, per each llSetLinkPrimitiveParams event (CTS-759, The Bug in action can be seen in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-fCaFXFevE , Thought I believe the case may have been directed to a internal JIRA, could I also have a confirmation on that?) [Matti Deigan]
7. After experimenting with rigged mesh in Blender 2.59 after the last mesh meeting, I found that a rigged mesh without joint offsets still works fine. But, a mesh with joint offsets still comes into SL mangled [Ashasekayi Ra]: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/Joint-Offsets-in-Blender-2-59/td-p/1040777
8. Are we there yet? Are you rolling mesh out to the whole grid this week? [Vivienne Daguerre]
9. Please provide us with more information about upcoming ARC? Things like: default limits, ways of alerting users etc. Information in advance will help creators to plan their meshes better. [Maniac Choche]
10. Prim costs for large mesh objects seems a little strange. It makes sense for objects which are extremely complex (15k+ polys) due to drawing a lot of detail at longer ranges, but it seems less sensible when you take into account the rendering cost of classic prims. Is there any way that prim costs based on size can be much more strongly influenced by complexity so that large, lower poly builds are not significantly more expensive than smaller ones? And for that matter, is it possible that in the future we can specify ideal ranges at which each LoD can be viewed (influenced of course by the viewer's own settings), as well as linked build LoDs so all mesh pieces linked together show the appropriate matching LoDs? [Feynt Mistral]
11. where did you hide cts-670, cant find it in shining, too, so not moved there (was autoscaling in importer between lodlevels) and whats status on this[the bunny]
12. Would it still be possible to go back to displaying the 2D pacman shape for clients that cannot display mesh properly? Nowdays when mesh render as spehere, cut cube or hollow cylinder it is hard to tell if the build is just ugly or a mesh object.
13. Is Falcon still at the Lab? And if so, how is he doing? (arton Rotaru)
14. Pivot offset? [Drongle]

Meeting Notes

Attendees List

• Anastasios Aurotharius (anastasios.aurotharius)
• Angel (angel.alphaville)
• Angell Airy (angell.airy)
• arton Rotaru (arton.rotaru)
• Asha (ashasekayi.ra)
• bigjr Slade (bigjr.slade)
• Bunnie Mills (bunnie.mills)
• Cale Flanagan (cale.flanagan)
• Charlie (charlar.linden)
• Drongle McMahon (drongle.mcmahon)
• E (eithne.blaylock)
• Eleanora Newell (eleanora.newell)
• Feynt Mistral (feynt.mistral) (User's Wiki Page)
• Graham Dartmouth (graham.dartmouth)
• Jusden Jonstone (jusden.jonstone)
• Lazy (lazy.spectre)
• Liisa Runo (liisa.runo)
• Maniac (maniac.choche)
• Marika (marika.dagostino)
• Matti Deigan (matti.deigan)
• Mikki Miles (mikki.miles)
• Gone (nacy.nightfire)
• Nal (nalates.urriah)
• Racush (racush.cheeky)
• Rain Edring (rain.edring)
• davep (runitai.linden)
• Koli Contepomi (sahkolihaa.contepomi)
• Second Life (second.life)
• Skygirl Kline (skygirl.kline)
• Vivienne Daguerre (vivienne.daguerre)
• Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar)
• Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)

Transcript for Monday August 22, 2011

[12:01]	Feynt Mistral	No, time for Charlar to get on with the show.
[12:01]	Feynt Mistral	>3
[12:01]	Cale Flanagan	i heard that matti:)
[12:01]	Maniac (maniac.choche)	ah the tree man :) welcome
[12:01]	Vivienne Daguerre	Vivienne Daguerre smiles...
[12:01]	Vivienne Daguerre	Hello there Charlie
[12:01]	Cale Flanagan	ond on again
[12:01]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	Hi all
[12:01]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Hola Charlie
[12:01]	Bunnie Mills	hi charlie
[12:02]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)	hello Charlar
[12:02]	Marika (marika.dagostino)	hello :-)
[12:02]	Feynt Mistral	Cale is showing us why mesh avatars need a bit more lovin'. >)
[12:02]	Cale Flanagan	so i dtach mysti, if you cant control your radar, so its quiet
[12:02]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar)	there is some thing here that is playing havo with llSensor then
[12:02]	Eleanora Newell	hi, everyone
[12:02]	Matti Deigan	border?
[12:02]	Feynt Mistral	Morning Eleanora.
[12:02]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Heya Eleanora
[12:02]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	lets give people another minute
[12:02]	Feynt Mistral	Yeah probably the border.
[12:02]	Cale Flanagan	llsensor dont talk on ch5:)
[12:03]	Cale Flanagan	what woring with me? om fluffy
[12:03]	Matti Deigan	hmm, fairly stable now even with a large amount of avatars :D
[12:03]	Gone (nacy.nightfire)	Gone waves hello to Ele
[12:03]	arton Rotaru	AV rezzing pretty slow for me, reminds me of a popular camp spot 4 years ago^^
[12:03]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	agenda at: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group
[12:03]	Matti Deigan	need a fire in the middle :)
[12:03]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar)	but the list on my hud is alternating between two different lists
[12:03]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar)	im going to try some thing
[12:03]	arton Rotaru	where people sat on each other, because they won't rezz
[12:04]	Racush (racush.cheeky)	hey Davep
[12:04]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	he'll be right back
[12:04]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	whew! I thought I would be alone with you all
[12:04]	Koli Contepomi (sahkolihaa.contepomi)	Koli Contepomi waves to dave.
[12:05]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar)	hey dave
[12:05]	Vivienne Daguerre	Do we scare you?
[12:05]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	We don't bite ... mostly.
[12:05]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	scare? Uh, no not all, nope.
[12:05]	davep (runitai.linden)	davep is terrified.
[12:05]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar)	cale how is it now?
[12:05]	Second Life	Select residents to share with.
[12:05]	Vivienne Daguerre	hahaha
[12:05]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	>^^<
[12:05]	Cale Flanagan	quiet
[12:05]	Second Life	Items successfully shared.
[12:06]	Cale Flanagan	maybe look if you still have a say on ch 5 somewhere, where you mormally dont look
[12:06]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar)	must have bee some thing to do with sitting so close to the sim border
[12:06]	Matti Deigan	not just close, but on it
[12:06]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	OK, let's get started.
[12:06]	Feynt Mistral	Mostly meaning us furries are the chewing type. >)
[12:07]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	#1 How to make terrain with Mesh - Jessica Chung
[12:07]	davep (runitai.linden)	right now you can make a mesh terrain just by making a huge mesh
[12:07]	davep (runitai.linden)	but the simulator won't register it as being the "ground"
[12:07]	davep (runitai.linden)	you have to be careful to chop up your mesh into 64m chunks
[12:07]	arton Rotaru	16 times 64x64
[12:08]	Feynt Mistral	Chopping up the build however has render issues.
[12:08]	arton Rotaru	made a full sim terrain, very simple one, 59 PE
[12:08]	Feynt Mistral	Different LoDs won't line up properly and it'll cause holes.
[12:08]	davep (runitai.linden)	there's a jira open now for making mesh terrain register as the ground in the physics engine
[12:08]	davep (runitai.linden)	but the number eludes me
[12:08]	arton Rotaru	but looks like from playstation 1^^
[12:09]	davep (runitai.linden)	right, if you're making mesh terrain, you probably want to "none" out the LoDs below "high"
[12:09]	arton Rotaru	no LODs needed for 64x64 meshes
[12:09]	davep (runitai.linden)	that's what I did for meshhq 3
[12:09]	Matti Deigan	ah
[12:09]	Feynt Mistral	Ah, I was under the assumption that SL enforced the lower LoDs
[12:09]	davep (runitai.linden)	SH-1325 for mesh terrain in physics
[12:09]	Matti Deigan	would there be an issue with agenda 10 then, as they are large objects?
[12:09]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Usinf none on those LODS won't hurt the PE?
[12:09]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	*Using
[12:09]	arton Rotaru	yep
[12:09]	davep (runitai.linden)	it won't hurt PE because the lower LoDs are effectively never displayed
[12:10]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Ahh I see
[12:10]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Good to know
[12:10]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	next...
[12:10]	Feynt Mistral	Oh, a quick insert to the list...
[12:10]	Feynt Mistral	Cale's avatar.
[12:10]	Matti Deigan	Isnt that related to agenda 7?
[12:11]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	#2 If debug setting "RenderVolumeLODFactor" is not volatile (hence not just a builders' tool), does it mean there is no reference for LOD planning? [Bunnie Mills]
[12:11]	Feynt Mistral	Might be.
[12:12]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	Currently we don't give you a great way to test and manipulate LoD. We know it's an area we need to improve for you, so we're interested in your ideas on how to give you a workable solution.
[12:12]	Eleanora Newell	rinitai, i get a permissions error when i try to view that jira
[12:12]	Feynt Mistral	Temp upload.
[12:12]	Angel (angel.alphaville)	LOD groups too
[12:13]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	Eleanora - it's currently an internal jira, sorry bout that.
[12:13]	Feynt Mistral	"Matrix style" clean rooms on local for uploading.
[12:13]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	I gave dave the jira
[12:13]	Eleanora Newell	ah ok
[12:13]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	LoD would be a valid part of improving preview.
[12:13]	Bunnie Mills	so when we decide what to take off in the lower lods, we base our decision on what ?
[12:14]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	Any place we can put the suggestions (figuring we'll think of them eventually)?
[12:14]	Drongle McMahon	Low end machines get RenderVolumeLODFactor 1.125 by default.
[12:14]	Bunnie Mills	i did all my tests assuming RenderVolumeLODFactor is 1.0 as the reference value
[12:15]	Angel (angel.alphaville)	same here, 1.25, the default
[12:15]	Drongle McMahon	So 1 is a good reference
[12:15]	Bunnie Mills	some details disappear at 10m distance etc...
[12:15]	Matti Deigan	I just use the in options on low to figure out, but it indeed needs a better way
[12:16]	Drongle McMahon	Bunnie ... it depends on the object size.
[12:16]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	ok, next one.
[12:17]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	#3 Some private estate owners have started implementing policies to prohibit the use of mesh on their land in order to keep the experience enjoyable for users of legacy viewers who see mesh items only as random polygons. While it is entirely within their rights to do so, it also creates a conflict with Linden Lab's Policy on Third-Party Viewers which states that the use of unsupported viewers must not be detrimental to anyone else's Second Life experience. Since most SL residents are not familiar with the technical details of mesh, it appears to be only a matter of time until people get banned for taking mesh attachments into regions where they are not allowed. Are there any plans to resolve this conflict, e.g. by stopping the server from sending mesh assets to viewers that cannot render them? [Masami Kuramoto]
[12:17]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	this is a really interesting question...
[12:17]	Maniac (maniac.choche)	a short one ..
[12:17]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	heh
[12:17]	Matti Deigan	But a very valid one
[12:17]	Maniac (maniac.choche)	yep :)
[12:17]	Skygirl Kline	luddites
[12:17]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	I need to talk to some people about this. My first inclination is that estate owners have a lot of autonomy.
[12:18]	Vivienne Daguerre	Yes, the luddites are actively fighting mesh
[12:18]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	haha Skygirl
[12:18]	Feynt Mistral	Like they fight voice.
[12:18]	Liisa Runo	Preventing mesh from rendering will cause trouble if the mesh object need to be reported for example. So some other solution is needed.
[12:18]	Matti Deigan	I think its more of an over time adaptation to the change.
[12:18]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	I haven't heard any landlords say they would ban people for mesh attachments.
[12:18]	Vivienne Daguerre	perhaps a private island estate, but for a mainland estate to do so could render neighbouring sims a mess to their occupants
[12:18]	Matti Deigan	eventually more people will adapt mesh viewers, and, well, those places will lose visitors.
[12:18]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	we won't be changing how mesh is displaying with non-mesh viewers
[12:18]	Koli Contepomi (sahkolihaa.contepomi)	Doesn't seem fair to ban people from using mesh just because some people don't want to update.
[12:19]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	remember, the banning refereed to is by the estate owners.
[12:19]	Matti Deigan	yeah it doesnt, but estate owners, should have their rules atleast on their estate.
[12:19]	Graham Dartmouth	I have has simowners complain to me because they fear the pe, it just takes education and useofestate tools
[12:19]	Angell Airy	when available mesh on linden lab premium homes?
[12:19]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	It would be fun if Mesh clothing displayed as a barrel on suspenders
[12:19]	Matti Deigan	nalates :D
[12:20]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	+1 Nal!
[12:20]	Vivienne Daguerre	lol... that would be great Nal
[12:20]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Well, if an estate owner is silly enough to ban mesh, their renters can vote with their feet. I know I would.
[12:20]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	lol
[12:20]	E (eithne.blaylock)	well ya know if they want to be silly and say no mesh on their land for fear so ticking off those who won't change viewers, let um, and when the shops on those sims lose business those sims won't be around much longer
[12:21]	Maniac (maniac.choche)	if creators don't sit on subdivide button all be okay :)
[12:21]	Matti Deigan	as i said, it will eventually be adapted in all. :)
[12:21]	Matti Deigan	just takes, time.
[12:21]	Angel (angel.alphaville)	hah amen to that Maniac !
[12:21]	Vivienne Daguerre	I think you are right Matti
[12:21]	Maniac (maniac.choche)	:)))
[12:21]	Liisa Runo	about 2 or 4 years and it will be fine
[12:21]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	Ok, let's move on.
[12:21]	Graham Dartmouth	Graham Dartmouth agrees with timeand adds education
[12:21]	Koli Contepomi (sahkolihaa.contepomi)	lol Liisa. :p
[12:21]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	#4 Can someone here please explain to me why I just worked my ass off for 2 weeks on a project trying to keep it under 32 prims physically. Finally get it working tonight my physics weight is 31.9. PE is 363. I turn physics on and the physics weight jumps up to f***ing 915..?!? which puts the entire object to 916 PE.... what is the point of it listing as 31.9 physics when clearly for some reason its simply NOT? all of the mesh physics models combined are under 200 polygons. Really losing any hope of mesh what so ever (Moo Spyker)
[12:22]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar)	a lot of TPV'v might have a problem adotping til one issue is resolved though
[12:22]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	ok, please state in the form of a reasonable question. :-)
[12:22]	Maniac (maniac.choche)	oh the ship saga :)
[12:22]	davep (runitai.linden)	I'd need to see the item in question
[12:22]	Maniac (maniac.choche)	it was rezzed around one huge ship
[12:22]	Matti Deigan	wasnt this on the forums?
[12:22]	davep (runitai.linden)	is moo here?
[12:22]	Matti Deigan	Nope, I dont see him.
[12:22]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Yes, it is on the firum.
[12:23]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	Yes, Matti it is.
[12:23]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	*forum even
[12:23]	davep (runitai.linden)	kk, will check out the forum link later
[12:23]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	Someone have thelink?
[12:23]	davep (runitai.linden)	but the gist of it is that the physics cost will change based on whether or not the object is "physical"
[12:23]	Maniac (maniac.choche)	http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/losing-any-hope-of-mesh/td-p/1051315
[12:24]	Matti Deigan	even if the "physical" says otherwise.
[12:24]	davep (runitai.linden)	but I'll have to see the object in question to figure out exactly what the deal is
[12:24]	Matti Deigan	thats unfortunate.
[12:24]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	TY Maniac
[12:24]	davep (runitai.linden)	will look into it
[12:24]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	next...
[12:24]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	#5 There has been some confusion over which LL Convex Decomposition Stub Library TPV's & Open Source developers should be building from to build viewers either with or without a completed stub convex decomposition library. Currently there are at least two & possibly more including snowstorm development team libraries containing llconvexdecomposition libraries on the LL Bitbucket Repository. Can you please clarify to TPV & Open Source Viewer Developers which library is 1) most up to date, 2) the correct stub library to build from that will build successfully with or without a the stub library completed? [Jusden Jonstone]
[12:25]	davep (runitai.linden)	sure, let me get the link
[12:25]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar)	i think i can answer that one
[12:25]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar)	davep?
[12:25]	Jusden Jonstone	prefer to get it from linden mouth if possible
[12:26]	Maniac (maniac.choche)	:))))
[12:26]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar)	ok jusden
[12:26]	Eleanora Newell	could that questions please be in english?
[12:26]	davep (runitai.linden)	I *believe* we build the stub from the same repository we build the non-stub
[12:26]	davep (runitai.linden)	https://bitbucket.org/lindenlab/llconvexdecomposition
[12:26]	E (eithne.blaylock)	thanks Ele i was thinking the same thing
[12:26]	Jusden Jonstone	wolfpup is that different than your answer?
[12:27]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar)	davep actualyyou do not
[12:27]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar)	the stub has as of this morning bee updated
[12:27]	Jusden Jonstone	lol...awesome
[12:27]	Jusden Jonstone	now i really give up
[12:28]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar)	but it is still just that a stub
[12:28]	davep (runitai.linden)	I'll go with wolfpup on this one -- the code is currently in synch between the two, so it doesn't matter which one you work off of
[12:28]	Jusden Jonstone	well ok i will figure it out
[12:28]	davep (runitai.linden)	it looks like Oz did some changes to conform to the coding policy
[12:28]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar)	dave on that question i have a question
[12:28]	davep (runitai.linden)	kk, real quick then we can move on
[12:29]	Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar)	how many of the Lindens here would support an opensource version of convexdecomposition
[12:29]	davep (runitai.linden)	both of us :-p
[12:29]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	on that, I defer to Runitai
[12:30]	Eleanora Newell	lol
[12:30]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	Moving on (many items left)
[12:30]	Eleanora Newell	+1 runitai
[12:30]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	#6 Will Linked Rigged Mesh be supported? Currently theres a critical bug that causes a Update to a linked rigged mesh to revert all attached rigged mesh to the updated rigged mesh's upload default for a single game frame, per each llSetLinkPrimitiveParams event (CTS-759, The Bug in action can be seen in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-fCaFXFevE , Thought I believe the case may have been directed to a internal JIRA, could I also have a confirmation on that?) [Matti Deigan]
[12:31]	davep (runitai.linden)	watching video...
[12:31]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	on nos
[12:31]	Matti Deigan	its 45 seconds long. it should be clear whats happening
[12:31]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	oh noes!
[12:32]	Feynt Mistral	Heh, blink head.
[12:32]	davep (runitai.linden)	ok, that's a problem
[12:32]	Cale Flanagan	ok then i watch BBB:)
[12:32]	bigjr Slade	we ahve no media prim ?
[12:32]	davep (runitai.linden)	we'll get that triaged and fixed in a future release
[12:32]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	thanks for finding that
[12:32]	Matti Deigan	yeah I had a jira up but it dissapeared
[12:32]	Matti Deigan	was it moved to internal?
[12:32]	davep (runitai.linden)	thanks very mcuh for the detailed bug report
[12:32]	Matti Deigan	ah, so it was :)
[12:33]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	one sec, and then we'll move on.
[12:33]	davep (runitai.linden)	moved here
[12:33]	davep (runitai.linden)	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SH-2290
[12:33]	Matti Deigan	yeah i get a "unautharized error"
[12:33]	Matti Deigan	for that
[12:33]	davep (runitai.linden)	try now
[12:33]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	me too
[12:33]	davep (runitai.linden)	should be able to see it
[12:34]	Matti Deigan	ah there we go :)
[12:34]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	now I can
[12:34]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	next...
[12:34]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	#7 After experimenting with rigged mesh in Blender 2.59 after the last mesh meeting, I found that a rigged mesh without joint offsets still works fine. But, a mesh with joint offsets still comes into SL mangled [Ashasekayi Ra]: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/Joint-Offsets-in-Blender-2-59/td-p/1040777
[12:34]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)	I can't see it Sh-2290..
[12:34]	davep (runitai.linden)	prep is actively working on that one
[12:34]	Feynt Mistral	Woo
[12:35]	davep (runitai.linden)	blender 2.59 support is high priority
[12:35]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Great. Thanks :)
[12:35]	Racush (racush.cheeky)	:D
[12:35]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	#8 Are we there yet? Are you rolling mesh out to the whole grid this week? [Vivienne Daguerre]
[12:35]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	We might be...
[12:35]	Maniac (maniac.choche)	aw
[12:35]	Lazy (lazy.spectre)	㋡
[12:35]	Vivienne Daguerre	Woo-hoo-hoo!!
[12:35]	Vivienne Daguerre	:D
[12:35]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	\o/
[12:35]	bigjr Slade	where is the ponies ????
[12:36]	Mikki Miles	#8b where is the champagne?
[12:36]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	lol
[12:36]	E (eithne.blaylock)	is that might be like when parents say maybe?
[12:36]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	at my desk, Mikki
[12:36]	Vivienne Daguerre	Day-o, me say daaay-o~
[12:36]	Vivienne Daguerre	dance
[12:36]	Maniac (maniac.choche)	°•·☺·•°°·. SURPRISE! .·°°•·☺·•°
[12:36]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Asha dies laughing at Viv
[12:36]	Anastasios Aurotharius	,.·^*'´|'\ ,.·^*'´¯¯¯'`*^·, ,/ |'`*^·-,
[12:36]	Anastasios Aurotharius	'| | \ ,·' ,.·:*:·, '`i | |
[12:36]	Anastasios Aurotharius	'| | |  ; ':,:::,:·  ; | |
[12:36]	Anastasios Aurotharius	'| | :i - ·;i'`:, ¯¯ ,·´| '| |
[12:36]	Anastasios Aurotharius	'| '´ '|'i `*:~· - ~^*'´ | | '`*·-,
[12:36]	Anastasios Aurotharius	'| ,.-:^:':'\:'`:;  :;·:i /`':^·., `'i
[12:36]	Anastasios Aurotharius	'|..,.:'´ '\| '`*^~·:-:·~^*'´'|/ '`::.., |
[12:36]	Anastasios Aurotharius	'´:  ;:-·^*'´ `'*^·:;-  :;·'
[12:36]	Anastasios Aurotharius	`·;:·'´ '`^·:;·´
[12:36]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	>.>
[12:36]	bigjr Slade	and you change the charge for upload ?????
[12:37]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	We're checking and testing, but --thanks to you all-- I feel really good about the possibilities this week
[12:37]	Matti Deigan	>_> oh noes I think i have to start uploading my models :P
[12:37]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	And yes, that means I'm going to be evil and raise the base upload fee a small amount. ( I know someone will ask).
[12:38]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	next...
[12:38]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	#9 Please provide us with more information about upcoming ARC? Things like: default limits, ways of alerting users etc. Information in advance will help creators to plan their meshes better. [Maniac Choche]
[12:38]	davep (runitai.linden)	we'll let you know when we know -- the numbers behind that haven't been designed yet
[12:38]	Maniac (maniac.choche)	:(
[12:38]	Matti Deigan	:[
[12:39]	davep (runitai.linden)	Nyx is still working on fine tuning the render cost algorithm in general, after that we'll do some performance analysis of existing avatars and teset mesh avatars and come up with some defaults
[12:39]	Maniac (maniac.choche)	hope we will not end up muted :))
[12:39]	Maniac (maniac.choche)	but okay :) we'll wait :)
[12:39]	Maniac (maniac.choche)	thanks
[12:39]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	We're also working to expose this information more clearly to all residents
[12:40]	Maniac (maniac.choche)	yes ,please noob friendly
[12:40]	Maniac (maniac.choche)	our feature is in the noobs..
[12:40]	Maniac (maniac.choche)	let's keep them warm :)
[12:40]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	next...
[12:40]	E (eithne.blaylock)	no offence Charlie, you guys can talk til you are blue in the face some of these people just dont' want to hear it
[12:41]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	#10 Prim costs for large mesh objects seems a little strange. It makes sense for objects which are extremely complex (15k+ polys) due to drawing a lot of detail at longer ranges, but it seems less sensible when you take into account the rendering cost of classic prims. Is there any way that prim costs based on size can be much more strongly influenced by complexity so that large, lower poly builds are not significantly more expensive than smaller ones? And for that matter, is it possible that in the future we can specify ideal ranges at which each LoD can be viewed (influenced of course by the viewer's own settings), as well as linked build LoDs so all mesh pieces linked together show the appropriate matching LoDs? [Feynt Mistral]
[12:41]	davep (runitai.linden)	I think the ability to specify LoD transition distances is key
[12:41]	Feynt Mistral	In particular the "lower poly cost" I refer to is 1-3k on a 64m^3 model.
[12:42]	davep (runitai.linden)	but we need to explore how to make that work for the builders
[12:42]	Bunnie Mills	cap the debug setting of #3 : P
[12:42]	Feynt Mistral	I think the last part is really the critical one.
[12:43]	Feynt Mistral	In a link set, all the LoDs should match each other.
[12:43]	davep (runitai.linden)	these are both very good ideas and we're looking into it, but they're also feature requests, so they have to be weighed and prioritized against other work
[12:44]	Feynt Mistral	Feynt Mistral nods, "I'll make a JIRA entry later then."
[12:44]	Drongle McMahon	But different LOD switches on different linkset components is a useful technique for getting small details to switch at more appropriates distances.
[12:44]	davep (runitai.linden)	thanks, Feynt
[12:44]	Matti Deigan	from my experiments, the LoD on attached linked mesh do seem to stay the same.
[12:44]	Bunnie Mills	agreee Drongle
[12:44]	Drongle McMahon	Therefore that should be optional.
[12:44]	Bunnie Mills	(if we knew at which distances)
[12:44]	Maniac (maniac.choche)	Matti only on rigged onaes
[12:45]	Feynt Mistral	I think attachments all switch at the same LoDs.
[12:45]	Matti Deigan	yeah probably that
[12:45]	davep (runitai.linden)	yeah, rigged attachments all use the same LoD rules
[12:45]	davep (runitai.linden)	they use the avatar bounding box to determine LoD
[12:45]	Maniac (maniac.choche)	yep
[12:45]	davep (runitai.linden)	*that* might change in the future
[12:45]	Drongle McMahon	But not unriggeed attachments.
[12:45]	Vivienne Daguerre	so if I were a fifty foot woman attacking cities, running amok... grins...
[12:46]	Vivienne Daguerre	LOD would not come into play... :P
[12:46]	davep (runitai.linden)	might go with the bounding box of the joints the attachment is rigged to instead of the full set of joints
[12:46]	Feynt Mistral	Feynt Mistral looks up, "I want to go on that ride!"
[12:46]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	next...
[12:46]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	#11 where did you hide cts-670, cant find it in shining, too, so not moved there (was autoscaling in importer between lodlevels) and whats status on this[the bunny]
[12:47]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	it's now SH-2266
[12:47]	Cale Flanagan	talso nit public i giess
[12:47]	Cale Flanagan	*also not public?
[12:48]	davep (runitai.linden)	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SH-2266
[12:48]	Drongle McMahon	You need to leave the cts ones there as a pointer to sh.
[12:48]	davep (runitai.linden)	should be public now
[12:48]	davep (runitai.linden)	davep shakes fist at JIRA.
[12:48]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	Making both LoD and Collision objects NOT scale to the size of the bounding box is something we want to get done soon.
[12:48]	Cale Flanagan	i watch this kira and didnt get a mail where ist moved
[12:48]	Matti Deigan	Oooh, thats a bug I'm going to vote for.
[12:49]	Matti Deigan	I made work arounds for it, but that does happen.
[12:49]	Cale Flanagan	i remeber that it wasnt so in the forst mesh format, but glad you are working on that
[12:49]	davep (runitai.linden)	whoop, gotta run
[12:49]	davep (runitai.linden)	thanks for the discussion!
[12:49]	Koli Contepomi (sahkolihaa.contepomi)	Aw, see you Dave.
[12:49]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	ok, last item...
[12:49]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	#12 Would it still be possible to go back to displaying the 2D pacman shape for clients that cannot display mesh properly? Nowdays when mesh render as spehere, cut cube or hollow cylinder it is hard to tell if the build is just ugly or a mesh object.
[12:49]	Feynt Mistral	Night.
[12:50]	Maniac (maniac.choche)	;)))
[12:50]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	we understand the desire to make them something small, but we need to hold information in those objects where they're not supported, so we need to have the more complex prims.
[12:50]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	otherwise we'd lose your textures, etc.
[12:51]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	and we don't want to do that. :-)
[12:51]	Graham Dartmouth	not somuch smakk as unique
[12:51]	Graham Dartmouth	small*
[12:51]	Liisa Runo	alright, shame
[12:51]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	I see a new item:
[12:51]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	lucky #13: Is Falcon still at the Lab? And if so, how is he doing? (arton Rotaru)
[12:51]	Matti Deigan	a Hexagon would be awesome to differenciate :P
[12:52]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	Falcon is alive and well.
[12:52]	Cale Flanagan	or little ponies..:)
[12:52]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	I have him in a dungeon cell working on some cool new stuff.
[12:52]	Matti Deigan	ey, isnt there s upposed to be a time limit to the questions? heh.
[12:52]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	Ima - got 'em thankss
[12:52]	Drongle McMahon	he's too dangerous to come to these meetings.
[12:53]	Matti Deigan	spontaniously combust.
[12:53]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	hah
[12:53]	Cale Flanagan	my trigger finger itches if i see him (did i just say that?)
[12:53]	Bunnie Mills	thanks Charlie, bye bye everyone
[12:53]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	wow, Cale. I'll let him know. :-)
[12:53]	Cale Flanagan	nooooooooo
[12:53]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	not sure how he'll take that
[12:54]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	ok, new last item:
[12:54]	Cale Flanagan	i spend an hour with a vehicle going through a wall
[12:54]	Cale Flanagan	(so no wonder)
[12:54]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	#14 Pivot offset? [Drongle]
[12:54]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	uh, thats not a question, really.
[12:55]	Drongle McMahon	Well, is it still planned?
[12:55]	Cale Flanagan	i see a question mark
[12:55]	Liisa Runo	#14 Can we has a pivot offset? [Drongle]
[12:55]	Drongle McMahon	I had to type fast.
[12:55]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	that doesn't make it a question - :-)
[12:55]	Cale Flanagan	or stauts cts244?!
[12:55]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	Avatar features are something we really want to add, but I don't know when yet.
[12:56]	bigjr Slade	thtas a very old cts...
[12:56]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	readign cts-244
[12:56]	Cale Flanagan	alsong you dont see buny fairiees:)
[12:56]	Feynt Mistral	Gotta go, night folks.
[12:56]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)	Good night.
[12:56]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Night Feynt
[12:56]	Eleanora Newell	nite, feynt
[12:57]	Cale Flanagan	i thnk tht was pivot.... i have this number tatoowed...:)
[12:57]	Drongle McMahon	Prep was supposed to be thinking about it after release.
[12:57]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	that is old - interesting...
[12:58]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	He is Drongle. It's just a matter of whether we can get it into the queue over other stuff.
[12:58]	Cale Flanagan	ima just a preview on bunny with wings:)
[12:58]	Drongle McMahon	Je made the AssetPivot mechanism, but that was removed because the server didn't know about it.
[12:58]	Drongle McMahon	*He
[12:58]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	As irritating as I know it is to hear me say that it's all about relative priority, it's harder to be the one living in it.
[12:59]	Vivienne Daguerre	You need an octapus avatar with more hands Charlie
[12:59]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	OK, wrapping up here. Thanks everyone, i hope you got something useful.
[12:59]	Koli Contepomi (sahkolihaa.contepomi)	Koli Contepomi waves. :o
[12:59]	Drongle McMahon	Bye/
[12:59]	Vivienne Daguerre	yes, we are there!!
[12:59]	Liisa Runo	bye people, ruths, strange mesh bubbles and the 2 persons who love copybots
[12:59]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	Maybe that's the problem. I have no hands
[12:59]	Nal (nalates.urriah)	Bye Thx
[12:59]	Skygirl Kline	byes )
[12:59]	Eleanora Newell	thanks, charlar
[12:59]	Graham Dartmouth	thanks charlie
[12:59]	Marika (marika.dagostino)	Uspeh!
[12:59]	Cale Flanagan	charlie tree already have glasses:)
[12:59]	Vivienne Daguerre	Thanks to all of your team for working so hard and long on this :D
[12:59]	Asha (ashasekayi.ra)	Thanks Charlie. Adios.
[13:00]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	tree's eyes really don't work well
[13:00]	Gone (nacy.nightfire)	thanks and by everyone!
[13:00]	Drongle McMahon	He leaves it to others (soprry).
[13:00]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	Sooo close, but even after that there's more to come!
[13:00]	Eleanora Newell	just hope i can see mesh someday again :(
[13:00]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	nice Drongle
[13:00]	Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell)	See you next week!
[13:00]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	I'm going to make like a tree, and leave
[13:00]	Matti Deigan	will be there :P
[13:00]	Vivienne Daguerre	hehe
[13:00]	Vivienne Daguerre	see you all soon :D
[13:00]	Eleanora Newell	bye, everyone
[13:00]	Matti Deigan	bai all
[13:01]	Skygirl Kline	bye )
[13:01]	Rain Edring	bye
[13:01]	Cale Flanagan	you are an ent?:)
[13:02]	Charlie (charlar.linden)	nice. sadly no - because i think that might be an IP infringement ;-)

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