Doc Team/2007-12-21

Connected
Arawn Spitteler: Hi, Jeremy
WidgetHUD v1.1: Arawn Spitteler has pinged you.
Jeremy Linden: Hello Arawn. Welcome back to Documentation Office Hours!
Hoppy Pay HUD (wear me) v1.1.1: Script run-time error
Hoppy Pay HUD (wear me) v1.1.1: Stack-Heap Collision
Arawn Spitteler: What is Hoppy Pay HUD?
Jeremy Linden: Hello Deborah. Welcome to Documentation Office Hours. Hi Tegg, too!
Arawn Spitteler: Hi, Tegg
Tegg Bode: Hi Jeremy
WidgetHUD v1.1: Tegg Bode has pinged you.
Arawn Spitteler: Where's Indya?
Tegg Bode: Hi Jon
Jon Linden: hello everybody!
Jeremy Linden: You folks are the only folks I've seen here today :-)
Arawn Spitteler: Well, your office hours are just starting
Arawn Spitteler: I was afraid Indya might have gone over to Torley
Tegg Bode: Torley> She gon over to the colorful side? :)
Deborah Goldblatt: yes, but if we have such office hours, would you pls inform me before
Arawn Spitteler: Didn't I mention?
Jeremy Linden: I'm not sure I understand, Deborah.
Deborah Goldblatt: lol
Arawn Spitteler: I invited her.
Jeremy Linden: Ah! We have a recruiter ;-)
Arawn Spitteler: I want to kick over an idea for a documentation seminar.
Deborah Goldblatt: it is not that you informed me
Arawn Spitteler: I figure, the best way to get a good college education is first, to build a good college
Deborah Goldblatt: who now is the recruiter?
Deborah Goldblatt: but hello and good evening to all
Jeremy Linden: I was joking, Deborah. Arawn invited you guys to come here.
Jon Linden: i'm still not sure i follow, arawn
Deborah Goldblatt: lol
Deborah Goldblatt: to Jon
Jeremy Linden: Hello Kitty!
Deborah Goldblatt: oh you are a lovly grab
Deborah Goldblatt: lol
Indya Etchegaray: to know Arawn is to receive random transports from Arwan
Kitty Barnett: *waves to everyone* hey-ies :)
Arawn Spitteler: SL hads a heavy demand for Documentation, but that's partly the diversity of Users. The whole of Silicone Valley needs documentation;
Tegg Bode: Hi Kitty, noce antlers :)
Kitty Barnett: :p
Jon Linden: i uh
Deborah Goldblatt: ^^
Jon Linden: i'm not sure it's within our mandate to document all of Silicon Valley, Arawn
Indya Etchegaray whispers to Arwan...she is probably coming from Torley's
Arawn Spitteler: No, but to provide an environment in which seminars might be held, is withing SL mandate
Jeremy Linden: Hmm... Arawn, you mean like a live version of Torley's tips & tricks?
Arawn Spitteler: More like discourse between Tech Writers and Geeks
Jeremy Linden: Like right now?
Arawn Spitteler: Now is your office hours, You guys and Torley would just be the leaders of hte Linden Lab Market
Kitty Barnett: George just said that the KB should be decoupled from support any day now? :o
Jon Linden: we're hoping to have the KB out from behind the login early in the new year
Jeremy Linden: In a manner of speaking, Kitty. I believe Jon knows more than I do about that.
Kitty Barnett: yay! :)
Tegg Bode: KB?
Jon Linden: there are some other changes we're working on
Deborah Goldblatt: ^^sorry, can I mention something
Jon Linden: Knowledge Base, Tegg
Kitty Barnett: knowledge base :o
Tegg Bode: Ah , thx :)
Jeremy Linden: KB is our two letter identifier for Knowledge Base :-)
Deborah Goldblatt: exactly what are the abreviations
Kitty Barnett: apparantly I confuse people when I use KB cause they think I'm abbreviating my own name :o
Deborah Goldblatt: and where do we docuent the legend of it
Jon Linden: are there other abbreviations that confuse you?
Deborah Goldblatt: lol
Jon Linden: some sort of abbreviation glossary would probably not be a bad idea, but I don't know where they show up or how often they're used
Deborah Goldblatt: abbreviations confuses always
Jeremy Linden: KB isn't an official term... we just tend to use it out of convenience. Sorry if it's confusing!
Tegg Bode: Yes I was wondering what you were doing behind the Login :)
Deborah Goldblatt: we have to document abreviations as a translation
Jon Linden: having the KB behind a login came part & parcel with the new support architecture
Jon Linden: we moved to a new system created by a company called Parature to handle support tickets and live chat
Arawn Spitteler: When I started, you had to log in to the Forum, for any info, and that still requires Payment Info on file
Jon Linden: Parature also included a knowledge base that worked better than the previous one (which used a system called Lore)
Jeremy Linden: Believe it or not, Parature does have many advantages over the old knowledge base.
Arawn Spitteler believes
Tegg Bode: I should hope it does , otherwise you would stick with the old :)
Jon Linden: indeed!
Deborah Goldblatt: can we put a little red line in here
Jon Linden: but none of us liked having it behind a login, so we started working on getting it out from behind it as soon as we could
Deborah Goldblatt: and discuss first the TOP s
Deborah Goldblatt: ?
Jon Linden: the whatnow?
Jeremy Linden: What does TOP stand for?
Deborah Goldblatt: daily point of discussion
Jeremy Linden: Ah. You assume we have topics of discussion lined up ;-)
Deborah Goldblatt: you are wonderful in intecutlural parts
Deborah Goldblatt: yes
Deborah Goldblatt: intercultural
Tegg Bode: Lol is it in their job discription? :)
Jeremy Linden: So far, we've been treating these office hours as a sort of question & answer session where you guys can come to vent your frustration with the Knowledge Base, or suggest improvements.
Deborah Goldblatt: we do not talk about job descirptions yet
Tegg Bode: was joking :)
Deborah Goldblatt: lol
Jon Linden: as well as ideas for new processes or any information that you think is missing or otherwise inaccurate
Jon Linden: ^_^
Kitty Barnett: ooooooo *flips through her book of frustrations :p*
Jeremy Linden: Let them fly! If we know what frustrates you, we can work on fixing it :-)
Jon Linden: as long as they're KB-related, heh
Arawn Spitteler thinks: Kitty should just upload the notecard, as part of the Wiki
Deborah Goldblatt: I don't know about frustations and as a communication trainer beside all other things I do not like to take negative terms
Deborah Goldblatt: but we wanted to talk about documentation=
Arawn Spitteler: Frustrations => Ambitions of Discovery
Deborah Goldblatt: much better
Kitty Barnett: an easier way to suggest additions or fixes :o mostly what keeps me from linking to the KB right now besides the log-in issue is that some things aren't accurate or wrong... and then there's no easy way to report it :o
Jeremy Linden: Well, personally I prefer to receive constructive criticism rather than general negative feedback, but even negative feedback often has value.
Jon Linden: we need to know what's not working right with the KB in order to fix it
Jon Linden: kitty: can you give an example?
Jon Linden: (also, yeah, the direct linking's kind of a pain)
Kitty Barnett: no lol... that's the problem :p I'll notice it when I peek at it... then I just answer the question and forget about the KB article :o
Arawn Spitteler has a suggestion for the edit window, but is intimidated by the Jira, when it can be located
Kitty Barnett: usually it's little things though
Kitty Barnett: nothing awful bad
Jeremy Linden: Hmm... Well, we do have a "Knowledge Base Suggestions" ticket type in th Support Portal. You can use that to make suggestions or point our any errors you find.
Kitty Barnett: I think I can remember one :o will peek if it's still there :o
Jeremy Linden: We were actually just discussing this issue... sometime in the near future, we'll be scouring the entire Knowledge Base and making sure everything's up-to-date.
Jon Linden: checking not only for functionality that's obsolete, but field and button names
Jeremy Linden: And screenshots!
Jon Linden: oh, the screenshots
Arawn Spitteler: Screenshots?
Jeremy Linden: As Second Life's user interface changes, some of the screenshots in the Knowledge Base become obsolete.
Jon Linden: articles in the Knowledge Base often include pictures of the interface (like the Region/Estate window) in order to more clearly explain a piece of functionality or task
Jon Linden: leading to what Jeremy said
WidgetHUD v1.1: Jon Linden has pinged you.
Jon Linden: there's a viewer update coming down the line that'll probably require us to retake almost all of them, actually
Jeremy Linden: Dazzle!
Jon Linden: good for SL, kind of a lot of work for us ^_^
Arawn Spitteler: Should include budget for temp labor; be sure you aint forgot
Jon Linden: that's something we'll think about, but Jeremy and I are fast and tough
WidgetHUD v1.1: Jon Linden has pinged you.
Jeremy Linden tries to do a muscle gesture, but the chair overrides it into a slouch.
Kitty Barnett: (found one... like the multiple monitor one... it indicates it's a problem, but it doesn't include the fixes besides "rebake")
Arawn Spitteler didn't have a problem, but used his head, and it seemed to do the over-riding
Time Minder: You have been online for 1 hours.
Tegg Bode: Hmm the last time I used it I found it kept taking me in circles when I was trying to get a bjorked region restarted, it's sorta bit confusing to one who hasn't uses wiki's etc before when you get in
Jon Linden: checking now
Tegg Bode: Ah the multiple monitor, only way I fixed that was by swapping the left and right monitor plugs thenswapping them in the Ndvida screen software
Kitty Barnett: yesh, that fixes it for a lot of people :)
Jon Linden: i think the article indicates "rebake textures" as its only solution to the "avatar turns black with multiple monitors" problem is that it tends to work
Tegg Bode: Which was good I was worried I'd have to phsically swap the monitors and buy a new desk with the draws on the other side
Jon Linden: and there haven't been any other solutions found which are equally reliable
Jon Linden: i'm just guessing, though; i think this article was written in the time before Jeremy or I took the wheel
WidgetHUD v1.1: Jon Linden has pinged you.
Tegg Bode: Rebake is only a temp workaround, eveytime you change clothing you have yop do it again
Kitty Barnett: yesh, but it recurs later on :o so then I write the whole bunch out with rebake and add that trying to run SL on the other monitor could be a long term fix
Kitty Barnett: instead of being able to point to the KB, which has the advantage of promoting the KB at the same time :)
Jeremy Linden: Hm. Yes, the dual-monitor problem is something of a known issue. If you start Second Life on a secondary monitor, it can do all kinds of unwanted things to the textures you see.
Jon Linden: actually, you can supply links to KB articles the way we do in the KB Article of Week entry
Jon Linden: the format is as follows:
Jon Linden: https://secondlife.com/community/support.php?questionID=xxxx
Jon Linden: the only catch is that you need to know the ID number of the article in question
Jon Linden: which you can find if you browse around in the KB and view the title/links to each article in their folders
Jon Linden: but this is not at all intuitive
Kitty Barnett: think a lot of the weirdness is that the people who know about the KB, are the people that probably don't ever really need it :o hehe
Tegg Bode: Hmm Captcha to login? Spose it stops griefing attacks by mass login grinders
Jon Linden: kitty: you may be onto something there
Jeremy Linden: We're working on visibility of the KB as well... one of our continuing goals is to spread the word to as many people as possible, by as many means as possible. :-)
Tegg Bode: Lol true by the time you are savvy enough to use it you can work out most of the stuff yourself, I'm not sure how some one with limited skills like my mum could use it at all
Jon Linden: tegg, i don't think the support portal comes under attack the way you describe very often, if at all
Jon Linden: your latter point's a fair one!
Jon Linden: i'm also working on a new structure for the KB that'll hopefully be more intuitive
Kitty Barnett: (ohhh suggestion... could the new search index the KB once it's decoupled too? :o)
Jon Linden: that is absolutely something we're working on
Jon Linden: or more like the search guys are working on
Jeremy Linden: Access to the KB inside the Second Life client is definitely one of our goals!
Jon Linden: that too!
Tegg Bode: It's a bit like the JIRA, it took me 6 months to work it out enough to use it's basic functions, I can just get an inkling now on the way it works by allowing people submit patches etc
Deborah Goldblatt: I just heard that since the last update a lot of ppl are missing items in the invent
Jon Linden: JIRA allows people to submit bug reports and feature requests, as well as discuss and vote on them
Jeremy Linden: Deborah, I'm afraid that's out of our scope here...
Tegg Bode: Many time I thought I was missing items and it turned out they just weren't visible or I had put them accidently in another folder otr even accidently transfered them to an alt
Arawn Spitteler: Is it alright to add a bug and run, 'cause I'm not certain I can navigate that
Deborah Goldblatt: ty
Deborah Goldblatt: I like constructive critic
Jon Linden: you're all in luck: one of the past KB Articles of the Week was all about the public issue tracker
Jon Linden: http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/11/28/knowledge-base-article-of-the-week-6-the-public-issue-tracker/
Jon Linden: which was actually more like a /set/ of KB Articles of the Week
Jon Linden: (good work Jeremy)
WidgetHUD v1.1: Jon Linden has pinged you.
Tegg Bode: There certainly seem to be a lot of JIRA submissions like "Can't Login" or Inventory Misssing"
Kitty Barnett: downside of promoting JIRA :p
Jon Linden: those are essentially junk
Jon Linden: the Knowledge Base Suggestions ticket queue gets a lot of those too
Jeremy Linden: Those are what we'd call "individual support issues", and should really have been filed as support tickets.
Jon Linden: exactly
Jeremy Linden: Public JIRA is much more for bug reports and feature requests.
Tegg Bode: Yes and perhaps a good side of it being scary to the non computer savvy
Jon Linden: the articles Jeremy highlighted in that blog post explain quite a bit about PJIRA and (hopefully) make it far less scary and more manageable
WidgetHUD v1.1: Jon Linden has pinged you.
Jeremy Linden: Hello Major! Welcome to Documentation Office Hours.
Major McCaw: Hi jer.. nice to be here
Arawn Spitteler: I think it was your first or second, when I was still intimidated by hte login demand. Hi, Major
Tegg Bode: I like how you added a link for your office hours more Lindens should do it :)
Kitty Barnett really hates having to login to JIRA every time :|
Jeremy Linden: Well, believe it or not, we haven't had such great attendance here in weeks past :-)
Jon Linden: also, all Linden office hours are posted at the Second Life wiki
Arawn Spitteler had a much worse class on Wednesday
Arawn Spitteler: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Office_Hours
Jeremy Linden nods.
Deborah Goldblatt: lol
Deborah Goldblatt: lol
Jeremy Linden: I can start asking my usual questions, if nobody has any other immediate concerns....
Tegg Bode: np :)
Deborah Goldblatt: np:-)
Jeremy Linden: For example, If you could change any one thing about the Knowledge Base, what would it be? Make sure to describe what you don't like about the current item, and how it would be different after ward.
Jon Linden: aside from the login
Jon Linden: heh
Arawn Spitteler: Convert to Wiki?
Deborah Goldblatt: kind of a handbook
Deborah Goldblatt: to each
Deborah Goldblatt: eg in WIKI
Jeremy Linden: Hm. You lost me at wiki. Can you elaborate?
Jeremy Linden: What would be in the handbook?
Deborah Goldblatt: a fully description
Deborah Goldblatt: of the process
Arawn Spitteler: How about a right-click Ask?
Deborah Goldblatt: if possible with pictures
Jon Linden: what process, though, Deborah?
Deborah Goldblatt: A right click Ask can be a handbook
Deborah Goldblatt: independen t which one
Deborah Goldblatt: all
Tegg Bode: Hmm I sugest the Solution Finder an Knowledge base sub trees be open for to see ans my first thoughts are "which one do I use , what's in them" or it looks like there's not much hellp here.
Jeremy Linden: Hmm... you mean like context-sensitive help documentation?
Deborah Goldblatt: so that all is transparent and can be followed
Jon Linden: tegg, that's something we've asked for -- it's some sort of limitation on Parature's part
Jon Linden: i'd like for those trees to be expanded by default as well
Arawn Spitteler: It takes a lot of doing, to make a space of transparency, just like in SL
Deborah Goldblatt: certainly you can limit it
Kitty Barnett likes the idea of a moderated wiki if that exists :o
Deborah Goldblatt: but especially on knowledge basics you need one you can download on your proper system
Deborah Goldblatt: propper
Jon Linden: i'm not actually sure whether the SL wiki is moderated or not
Deborah Goldblatt: to read it if necessarry daily till the full comprehension
Deborah Goldblatt: and it is not that difficult to do
Kitty Barnett: I meant something where a resident could change the artile, but it wouldn't show as an edit until you check/verify/rewrite... something like that :o
Jon Linden: deborah, i think the thing you're describing is beyond the ability of anybody to architect or code, for a couple of reasons
Deborah Goldblatt: that is processing and describing it
Jeremy Linden: I'm somewhat against using a wiki exclusively for our knowledge base. There's just no way to browse a wiki, for instance; you have to know what you're looking for.
Deborah Goldblatt: it is a form of basic quality managment or TQM as well
Tegg Bode: Hmm problem with a wiki is you can get info that may only be limited user specific but not apparent as such too
Jon Linden: that also is a concern
Deborah Goldblatt: yes, it is a concern and you can also put a worked out handbook under client or help
Tegg Bode: Such information is also foujnd in forums which are way more user friendly for people of limited skills
Jon Linden: the KB Suggestions ticket can be used to point out inaccuracies or submit relevant followups for KB articles
Deborah Goldblatt: my point o fview is
Jeremy Linden: Deborah, how would a handbook differ significantly from our current Knowledge Base? Would it just be structured differently, or should there be different information in there?
Deborah Goldblatt: it is a linden s land
Deborah Goldblatt: it is a linden s didscover
Jon Linden: the forums are outside my area of responsibility, but i think tegg is right in that the forums seem to be a place for Residents to ask for advice or help from each other
Deborah Goldblatt: and it is a linens philiosophy
Deborah Goldblatt: and so it is a lindens handbook inside the system
Deborah Goldblatt: processing necessary steps with transparency to make it more easy to handle also for newbies
Jon Linden: the scope of what you're suggesting does not seem possible to achieve with any sort of intelligibility or ease of maintenance
Tegg Bode: Well on a furum you can ask a quest, but not on a wiki, you can also do an easy search on years of a topic and see many residents different solutions, even for specific grafix cards , way more newbie friendly.
Arawn Spitteler: REading the forums is closed; why?
Tegg Bode: I guess what the KB needs to be is somwhow a forum without social pstings
Jeremy Linden checks.
Jon Linden: arawn, i'm not sure you're correct
Jon Linden: http://forums.secondlife.com/ appears to be open for reading and posting
Arawn Spitteler: reading the forums is behind a log-in, limited to those with Payment info. That only makes sense for posting privileges
Tegg Bode: Possibly he means you can't readonly unless yopu are payment verified
Arawn Spitteler: KB is open to basic memberships
Jon Linden: it's also probably a spam prevention measure
Arawn Spitteler: Reading is at same privilege as Posting?
SensualSusan Short: Hi everybody!!! :D :D :D
Tegg Bode: Furums are where many users first look for help on platforms and games, but SL is the only one I know of where new anonomous users can't get even readonly accesss
Jeremy Linden: Hello Susan.
Arawn Spitteler: Hi, Sensual
SensualSusan Short: am i desturbin in a meeting?
Tegg Bode: Most will let you read but only post when you are verified one way or another
Arawn Spitteler finds her quite welcome.
SensualSusan Short: just wandering arround, still new here
Jon Linden: again, the forums are outside my area of responsibility, but i can ask around
Tegg Bode: Welcome to SL then :)
Arawn Spitteler: Reading the same message, over and over, isn't going to bother other people.
SensualSusan Short: ok then
SensualSusan Short: Okay, I love you, buh-bye!
Jeremy Linden fails to type fast enough.
Jon Linden: i note that we're coming up on the end of our hour here, folks
Tegg Bode: well I realise that, justpointing out some differences between the 2 mediums, I suspect the KB needs to be more like a forum in user friendliness
Deborah Goldblatt: so we do:-)
Jon Linden: tegg, the sort of two-way interaction implied by a forum is probably not ideal for a knowledge base, but it couldn't hurt to be arranged better
Arawn Spitteler heard something interesting, during yesterdays newbification of Zero Hour. There seems to be a Linden Alley, in San Francisco of historic value, which might be fun to sim
Jeremy Linden: Indeed. Forums are often a wonderful place to find information. I'm not sure of the exact reasons for our official forum settings, but I'm sure someone on our Community team would be able to answer that mystery in detail :-)
Kitty Barnett has an entirely selfish question about a Jon or Jeremy bear? :o
WidgetHUD v1.1: Kitty Barnett has pinged you.
Tegg Bode: yes you would need to restrict onlyy one reply to each question by residents, and just allow them to edit answers
Jeremy Linden: Sure!
Jon Linden: let me see if i can find my bear
Kitty Barnett accepted your inventory offer.
Arawn Spitteler also wonders: have any from Parature been invited, to this slot?
Kitty Barnett: thankies! :)
Jon Linden: i think it made better sense when my avatar was a giant jello mold
Deborah Goldblatt: lol
Kitty Barnett: hehe
Jeremy Linden: Heh. Parature employees are not Lindens, unfortunately :-)
Tegg Bode: Lol but aren't they involved in the project?
Arawn Spitteler thinks: They might enjoy
Kitty Barnett: thankies too, Jon :)
Jeremy Linden: We interact with them in an official capacity, but they're no more responsible for our knowledge base than Microsoft is for your website if you use IIS.
Tegg Bode: ah ok, makes sense
Arawn Spitteler noticed: they don't seem to be mentioned, in the knowledge base
Arawn Spitteler: Had to Google
Jon Linden: it's at the bottom of literally every article: "Help Desk and Customer Support Software by Parature"
Deborah Goldblatt: thank you very much , it was very intersting but I miss some structures:-)
Jeremy Linden: We'll come up with a more structured game plan for next session, I think, Deborah :-)
Jon Linden: indeed!
Tegg Bode: Perhaps Knowledge base sounds too technical for limited users? Maybe a rename to Help answers book or something?
Jon Linden: tegg, that's not a bad idea at all!
Tegg Bode: Particularly for limited english readers too I imagine
Jeremy Linden: Heh. I sense a brainstorming session approaching.
Deborah Goldblatt: I would need to get informed about the topics and set a plan on a notecard
Jon Linden: i've made a note of that
Jeremy Linden: Hm... indeed. Do any of you know any limited English speakers who have trouble with the way our KB articles are worded?
Tegg Bode: What does Knowledge base translate to for sa German person, compared to Answers or Help Book?
Deborah Goldblatt: lol
Jeremy Linden: I suppose it would depend on the translator.
Kitty Barnett was just wondering if volunteers couldn't help with translating since the VTeam already has people who translate mentor stuff :o
Deborah Goldblatt: if they do not understand it, they stepp into, try it and leave it
Jeremy Linden: If I were to translate it from English to English, I'd call it a "foundation of knowledge"
Deborah Goldblatt: that is an intercultural language or linguistic process
Deborah Goldblatt: that sounds pretty good
Jon Linden: that's definitely something for a future brainstorming session
Deborah Goldblatt: e.g. for germans it is easier to understand basic
Deborah Goldblatt: :-)
Tegg Bode: Well translate I mean as in how they were taught to read english too, translating for them selves, Help is nearly a universal word like SOS book is prety easy
Jon Linden: heh
Jon Linden: folks, this has been excellent, but we're over time
Jeremy Linden: Thanks for all the great input!
Kitty Barnett: happy holidays everyone! :)
Arawn Spitteler thinks: Salvation Of Second Life?
Tegg Bode: You get paid extra for overtime? :)
Deborah Goldblatt: ok, wish you a wonderful chrismas time
Jon Linden: same to everyone here!
Deborah Goldblatt: and thank you
Deborah Goldblatt: and good night
Jon Linden: be well
Tegg Bode: np , cyas :)
Jeremy Linden: Just so everyone knows, I think we won't be holding office hours here next week.
Jeremy Linden: Keep your eyes on the blog for updates!
Arawn Spitteler wishes Yule Tide Blessings, on this Chanukka Season, on behalf of The Wyld Hunt.
Jeremy Linden: Happy Winter Fest! Make sure to visit a snowball fight and throw snowballs at lots of Lindens :-)
Deborah Goldblatt: :-)
Arawn Spitteler: Ask Zero about his last hour, and remind him to review his Mute List
Major McCaw: Take care, folks
Jeremy Linden waves.
Deborah Goldblatt: waves back