User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2010 01 07

Transcript

[17:00]	Welcome to	Linden office hours
[17:01]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hi, Morgaine. Have you seen WEB-1406, since you've dissappeared?
[17:01]	Panic Check	- Tier Drops need warnings, and invitations to clarify.
[17:01]	Ardy Lay:	Hehe... Needs leading zeros.
[17:01]	Morgaine Dinova:	Thanks Arawn, I'll look. I didn't "disappear", just that December is always chaos.
[17:02]	Arawn Spitteler:	Semper Chaosis? Yoiu must work in Retail
[17:02]	Morgaine Dinova:	God no, that would be the ultimate disaster.
[17:03]	Arawn Spitteler:	Challette? All we need now, is Sindy, and we'd be altogeather
[17:03]	Ardy Lay:	Hi Andrew
[17:03]	Andrew Linden:	hello everyone
[17:03]	Charlette Proto:	ah true
[17:03]	Charlette Proto:	look a Linden
[17:03]	Lazrith Fardel:	hello
[17:03]	Thriller Dancer:	Say 'on' or 'off'to turn me on or off, or 'help' for more commands
[17:03]	Ardy Lay:	Hi Simon
[17:03]	Charlette Proto:	hi Andrew - viewer 2 still a secret?
[17:03]	Arawn Spitteler:	Oh, yeah, Andrew, Simon, Saijanai also. Erinyse was here, earlier, but took off for something.
[17:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hi Andrew, Happy New Year :-)
[17:04]	Charlette Proto:	yeah Happy NY everyone
[17:04]	Simon Linden:	Hello
[17:04]	Andrew Linden:	That's a good question... I don't know if Viewer2 is a secret or not.
[17:04]	Charlette Proto:	hi Simon
[17:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hi Simon, Happy New Year :-)
[17:04]	Jonathan Yap:	It's on the blog that it will be out Q1
[17:05]	Andrew Linden:	Ok good. Not a secret.
[17:05]	Charlette Proto:	some say beta of viewer 2 will be out wednesday
[17:05]	Arawn Spitteler:	Could you tell us, if there's a non-disclosure agreement on any non-disclosure agreements?
[17:05]	Andrew Linden:	What it looks like and all the features are secret.
[17:05]	Andrew Linden:	Fortunately I haven't used it so I know very little about it --
[17:05]	Charlette Proto:	fortunately?
[17:05]	Andrew Linden:	I probably won't be revealing anything.
[17:05]	Liisa Runo:	VWR-6964 SVC-422
[17:05]	Muting object	(or object owner) does not mute dialogs
[17:05]	A solution	to scams, money theft - etc. New parcels Flag "Block Transactions
[17:05]	Charlette Proto:	is it as bad as some say
[17:06]	s greeter	says: Hello Saijanai, Jonathan, Erinyse, Morgaine, Becky, Arawn, Charlette, Lazrith, Andrew, Simon, Ardy, Liisa, and Areal.
[17:06]	Morgaine Dinova:	Not everything about it is secret, Andrew. For example, Merov told us today that Snowglobe's plugins are specifically designed to be Viewer-2.0 compatible, ie. that Viewer-2.0 has that plugin-API.
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	No, I'm saying "fortunately" because it means I probably won't slip up and reveal something secret.
[17:06]	Rex Cronon:	hello everybody
[17:06]	Charlette Proto:	haha
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	Ah good. yeah Merov is working on it.
[17:07]	Lazrith Fardel:	hello
[17:07]	Charlette Proto:	the Plugin API is true M said so at the conference
[17:07]	Andrew Linden:	As is Runitai.
[17:07]	Jonathan Yap:	And there have been server-side code upgrades over the past months to support it
[17:07]	Andrew Linden:	Right.
[17:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: M just wrote a blog about 2010 being more open. I guess they learned that the secrecy of 2009 was a mistake.
[17:07]	Andrew Linden:	One thing I can say... it is way overdue. They were hoping to have it out by now.
[17:08]	Morgaine Dinova:	Aye
[17:08]	Erinyse Planer:	sorry im late got pulled to help a resident and wound up having to ask iworld to send a espanol speaking mentor to figure out what the issues were.... the new translation program... not so good for problem shooting
[17:08]	Arawn Spitteler	wonders how 2010 could be more open than the transparency of 2009
[17:08]	Morgaine Dinova:	I want it NOW just so that the secrecy can stop. I don't care what's in it. ;-)
[17:08]	Charlette Proto:	anything on the new wave of inventory exploits targetting inventory give/receive operations has recently emerged
[17:09]	Andrew Linden:	We've had debates in LL about how closed source the Viewer2 should be. My opinions fall on the "we should have exposed it from the beginning" crowd.
[17:09]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew++
[17:09]	Andrew Linden:	Mostly because... if you make radical changes, how do you know the residents want them?
[17:09]	Morgaine Dinova:	Aye.
[17:09]	Andrew Linden:	However, we've got usability proponents that say, "focus groups tell us..."
[17:09]	Saijanai Kuhn:	not to mention that many eyes can make for a better design...
[17:09]	Rex Cronon:	u do a pool...
[17:09]	Charlette Proto:	yes andrew, but it is too late - we hate the changes even before we've seen them
[17:09]	Morgaine Dinova:	It's also reduced many of the tech OHs to a farce. A really bad 9 months because of that.
[17:10]	Lazrith Fardel:	basicly if you make radical changes,... some ,... you know ppl would like,... say protection options of goods
[17:10]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, and although that is where my opinions fall, I didn't actively participate in the debate.
[17:10]	Charlette Proto:	focus groups - you are kidding, this isn't breakfase cereal
[17:10]	Arawn Spitteler	wonders if that's why CG's got canceleed
[17:10]	Andrew Linden:	CG's office hours?
[17:10]	Simon Linden:	yeah, he stopped doing them a while ago
[17:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	And Periapse's too -- basically he could say nothing at all at OHs in his new duties.
[17:11]	Arawn Spitteler:	Tuesday and Friday, 8AM, until he stopped
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	hrm...
[17:11]	Erinyse Planer:	yeah im guessing cg was aprt of 2.0 he got pulled into something top secret right about the time it was anounced 2.0 existed
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	I could see why someone might stop if they couldn't say anything about what they were working on.
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	I've had that problem myself.
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	BTW, I need to talk about my own office hours.
[17:12]	Andrew Linden:	I mentioned on Tuesday that
[17:12]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well I understand secrecy about server-side. But secrecy and open source clients don't go together. At all.
[17:12]	Andrew Linden:	I need to either move this Friday hour, or stop attending.
[17:12]	Andrew Linden:	I've got something regular on Thursdays that is going to start conflicting.
[17:12]	Andrew Linden:	So the options are:
[17:13]	Charlette Proto:	any news on the inventory exploits targetting inventory give/receive operations has recently emerged
[17:13]	Arawn Spitteler:	Friday would be good
[17:13]	Liisa Runo:	friday it is
[17:13]	Andrew Linden:	(1) Move this hour to Thursday 16:00 - 17:00
[17:13]	Rex Cronon:	r going to move it to 3am friday:)
[17:13]	Andrew Linden:	(2) Move this hour to Friday sometime
[17:13]	Andrew Linden:	(3) Leave this hour for Simon only.
[17:13]	Rex Cronon:	one hour earlier doesn't sound bad
[17:13]	Arawn Spitteler:	In Andrew's Universe, 3AM comes at 3AM
[17:14]	Erinyse Planer:	one or two would work for me i think :)
[17:14]	Liisa Runo:	i dont care about the time, i have no RL, but i demand to have you both
[17:14]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: Thursday is taken, we have UXIG meeting right after the Open Source one.
[17:14]	Simon Linden:	I'd vote for moving back one hour to 16:00
[17:14]	Andrew Linden:	I had the Tuesday morning hour to be a good time for people in Europe.
[17:14]	Morgaine Dinova:	That's the UXIG slot
[17:14]	Rex Cronon:	me to
[17:14]	Charlette Proto:	no UXIG is 3pm
[17:15]	Rex Cronon:	i mean one hour back
[17:15]	Andrew Linden:	This hour was for people in the states -- late enough that some people who work during the day could even attend.
[17:15]	Charlette Proto:	but 3 meeting in a row is a bit much Morg
[17:15]	Morgaine Dinova:	Aye, Thursday is tight
[17:15]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, 3 hours of meetings is probably too much.
[17:15]	Charlette Proto:	how about 3am PST
[17:15]	Rex Cronon:	i was kidding when i said 3am
[17:15]	Charlette Proto:	then the foreign folk will type faster
[17:15]	Arawn Spitteler:	Grat, I'll move to Hong Kong
[17:16]	Andrew Linden:	Any input on those options Simon?
[17:16]	Andrew Linden:	I think Friday evening would conflict with more RL issues all around, but nothing regular.
[17:16]	Simon Linden:	I'm for just moving it back one hour. Would rather avoid a late Friday meeting
[17:17]	Arawn Spitteler:	Have your wife come in, for Friday Tea
[17:17]	Erinyse Planer:	back an hour or forward an hour?
[17:17]	Lazrith Fardel:	so friday 16.00 or 15.00 only thing missing is ppl voting 1600 or 1500?
[17:17]	Arawn Spitteler	has no life
[17:17]	Andrew Linden:	Oh, I scrolled back and saw your earlier comment.
[17:18]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, sounds like earlier on Thursdays is best.
[17:18]	Ardy Lay:	4PM Thursday is fine for me.
[17:18]	Andrew Linden:	hrm... 16:00 - 17:00 might work on Friday.
[17:18]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well your Tuesday slot conflicts with the Opensim meeting in OSgrid so I never make it here anymore. Friday is great for me though, 1500 or 1600 both
[17:19]	Simon Linden:	16:00 on Friday would be OK
[17:19]	Erinyse Planer:	I would miss some fridays but i never made them all before so
[17:19]	Erinyse Planer:	that would work for me
[17:19]	Ardy Lay:	I have 4PM Friday open too.
[17:19]	Morgaine Dinova:	You should come to the Opensim OH yourselves ... you need the broader worldview of where SL will have to go too :-)))
[17:19]	Rex Cronon:	hmm. friday end of week, everybody wants to get home ASP:)
[17:20]	Ardy Lay:	I am home so I don't mind. :-)
[17:20]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, let's make it Friday 16:00 - 17:00. Starting next week.
[17:20]	Liisa Runo:	(17:08) Charlette Proto: anything on the new wave of inventory exploits targetting inventory give/receive operations has recently emerged
[17:20]	Charlette Proto:	friday sounds like Lindens may be on free drink or miss out on it
[17:21]	Rex Cronon:	why do people need new exploits when they have copybot?
[17:21]	Charlette Proto:	yeah Liisa, insertion of objects into the inventory without one knowing (no blue dialog) or having an opportunity to accept or reject has been exposed recently eg happened to me twice
[17:21]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... inventory exploits
[17:21]	Charlette Proto:	also I have anectotal eveidence (apparently Data Linden has been a witness to this at Ahern) that a transfer of an inventory item can now be executed by a perpetrator and the victim receives the confirmation of this asset being accepted or rejected by the receipient involved
[17:21]	Morgaine Dinova:	Copybot isn't an exploit. It's how the platform works, by sending assets to clients for local rendering. Exploits are entirely different.
[17:21]	Liisa Runo:	cause copybotted items get cleaned from database soon, so ppl want exploits that give them the orginal item that appear to be bought from shop
[17:22]	Charlette Proto:	this isn't CopyBot Moragine
[17:22]	Charlette Proto:	asset server exploits
[17:22]	Rex Cronon:	it is an exploit. the viewer doesn't allow u to copy objects the belong to others:)
[17:22]	Rex Cronon:	that belong*
[17:22]	Charlette Proto:	staraight out inventory item transfers
[17:22]	Morgaine Dinova:	Charlette: correct, it's tech talk, and some people appear not to know what an exploit is.
[17:23]	Andrew Linden:	There was an exploit where a hacked viewer could trigger some alert about accepting an item, but no item was actually given, I think.
[17:23]	Charlette Proto:	ah OK I'll look into it, it was another aussie doing it so he may tell me
[17:24]	Andrew Linden:	I'm not 100% sure there are no known inventory exploits. I'll have to search and ask around.
[17:24]	Andrew Linden:	But none have fallen on my plate lately.
[17:24]	Morgaine Dinova:	With open source viewers, no client-side actions should ever be trusted, so that trigger needs to be stopped at the sim.
[17:24]	Liisa Runo:	and hopefully this time it dont get 6months to fix
[17:24]	Charlette Proto:	as far as receiving items without the blue dialog I got a couple myself and can (in confidence) dob the perpetrators
[17:25]	Erinyse Planer:	ive gotten objects without the dialog too
[17:25]	Andrew Linden:	That rings a bell Charlette, I think you gave me info about an event like that.
[17:25]	Lazrith Fardel:	it there a opteion to set the sims to : no matter what viewer your useing it will be set to a default,.. say the original from LL?
[17:25]	Arawn Spitteler	belatedly mentions SVC-22 and SVC-93, not to mention SVC-2931: That's right, we still have no way of knowing who's last tampered with an object.
[17:25]	llSetLinkPrimitiveParams content	breakage, only moves agents 54 meters now
[17:25]	ROTATION and	llSetRot incorrectly implemented for child prims
[17:25]	Vehicles crossing	region borders aren't always treated as vehicles and can get incorrectly returned if the destination parcel is no-entry or parcel-full
[17:25]	Andrew Linden:	Sigh... too much stuff to keep track of.
[17:25]	Ardy Lay:	Hmm... Does it come back like a returned item?
[17:26]	Liisa Runo:	(personally i would not mind LL closing the grid untill stuff like permission exploits get fixed)
[17:26]	Lazrith Fardel:	( depens on how long they need to close it to fix it,.... immagion the grid closed for months )
[17:27]	Andrew Linden:	I'll try to look for the inventory exploit reports.
[17:27]	Andrew Linden	makes a note.
[17:27]	Liisa Runo:	ill rather have grid closed for months than everything being copied frelly for months
[17:27]	Charlette Proto:	Liisa that is a radical thought, but steps should be made to protect Intellectual Property or creativity will be dead soon
[17:27]	Erinyse Planer:	in my case ive purchased things from venders and not gotten the dialog... jsut a notice that the object was accepted. course this was at time when other transaction things were wonky too...
[17:27]	Liisa Runo:	feely*
[17:27]	Arawn Spitteler:	What option should a sim set the viewer to, Laz?
[17:27]	Ardy Lay:	I would imagine service showstoppers get top priority.
[17:28]	Lazrith Fardel:	basicly when a lot of viieuwers give you the option to copy items,...
[17:28]	Charlette Proto:	Erinyse I get your point - some vendors give without the blue dialog
[17:28]	Lazrith Fardel:	simply make the sims have the option to have no matter the vieuwer your using
[17:28]	Erinyse Planer:	and it shouldnt be possible
[17:28]	Lazrith Fardel:	rever to the " normal" sl
[17:28]	Lazrith Fardel:	where all those options do not exist
[17:29]	Charlette Proto:	haha closed source viewer 2 will fix it all
[17:29]	Erinyse Planer	hopes she doesnt get in trouble for this... but she expects early 2.0 to be a mess...
[17:29]	Arawn Spitteler:	A Personally Upgraded Viewer should have whatever options the upgrader wants. Unlawful theft of intellectual property is somethig of a challenge.
[17:30]	Simon Linden:	I'm sure 2.0 will get a vocal reaction :)
[17:30]	Liisa Runo:	(12:00) Jack Linden: The Lab's stance on copybotting hasn't changed and we are building better tools to remove copied content
[17:30]	office hours	is half over
[17:30]	Andrew Linden:	in other news: server-1.36 branched yesterday evening
[17:30]	Charlette Proto:	Erinyse have you ever seen a good product made in focus groups besides sugary cereals
[17:30]	Lazrith Fardel:	true,.. but not all residents would like the unlawful option to get in to there sim,.. regardles if the user uses the option or not
[17:30]	Erinyse Planer:	i meant mess in terms of bug ridden, not neccisarily in terms of lynch the nearest linden for the idea simon
[17:30]	Andrew Linden:	and unfortunately I didn't get any MISC-3077 fixes into 1.36
[17:30]	List of	Linden-Confirmed Easy Changes/Additions With Large Returns
[17:31]	Andrew Linden:	I'm going to shoot for 1.38
[17:31]	Rex Cronon:	u mean that the lindens will have a tool that replaces the word copybot with **blip** :)
[17:31]	Arawn Spitteler:	Of course, Copied Items would still be useable in Open Grid, where Linden Labs doesn't control the Asset Servers.
[17:31]	Andrew Linden:	we're also moving from subversion (code revision system) to mercurial
[17:32]	Arawn Spitteler:	What's Mercurial?
[17:32]	Simon Linden:	It's another source code control system
[17:32]	Rex Cronon:	i think is aka Hg
[17:32]	Charlette Proto:	what are the implications of mercurial? a break in the code branching on alt viewer development trees?
[17:32]	Simon Linden:	Which hopefully will make our life easier
[17:33]	Andrew Linden:	it's not important -- it is just an internal tool we're using
[17:33]	Andrew Linden:	but it ate up most of my morning trying to figure out how to work with it
[17:33]	Simon Linden:	I think Snowglobe will switch to it as some point
[17:33]	Charlette Proto:	but one more complication (change) for outhouse devs I guess
[17:34]	Andrew Linden:	yes, the switch to mercurial will eventually affect anyone building source code we publish
[17:34]	Simon Linden:	I had the same thing ... burned up a few hours struggling with it, but I can see why a lot of people like it
[17:34]	Erinyse Planer:	if i understand right... itws what keeps one change from overriding another change without safeguards... so that theres continutity in the code and some sort of responsibility... ?
[17:34]	Simon Linden:	exactly
[17:34]	Andrew Linden:	We've been promised that the grass is much greener on the mercurial side. I saw a little bit of evidence of it by the end of the day.
[17:35]	Andrew Linden:	That is correct Erinyse.
[17:35]	Charlette Proto:	maybe it will stop some productivity problems (one hears about things broken accidentally a bit)
[17:35]	Rex Cronon:	u mean the grass is nice shiny and mercury like looking:)
[17:35]	Simon Linden:	Hg is much better at passing changes around ... so I might move a bug fix into the code I'm working on. Before, that could really cause bad problems when it was all merged together
[17:35]	Rex Cronon:	something like that morphing terminator:)
[17:35]	Andrew Linden:	yes, so eventually it will reduce some gnashing of teeth and some errors
[17:36]	Simon Linden:	and hair loss
[17:36]	Ardy Lay:	Merov said big merges will be much easier.
[17:36]	Charlette Proto:	good news long term teething problems right at the time of new viewer launch haha
[17:36]	Andrew Linden:	oh right, the tearing of hair out
[17:36]	Lazrith Fardel:	( gets mental immages of only bald Lindes working in a lab )
[17:36]	Liisa Runo:	too late, you dont have any hair
[17:36]	Andrew Linden:	actually, the new viewer code has been using mercurial for a few months now
[17:37]	Charlette Proto:	Lindens get their heads shaven in Real Life™ on the day they arrive in Battery Street
[17:37]	Andrew Linden:	the server finally transitioned yesterday
[17:37]	Simon Linden:	There's a surpising number of shaved heads in the SF office :)
[17:37]	Charlette Proto:	ah so that sounds better to me, moving a new branch would be a weird move
[17:38]	Morgaine Dinova:	Distributed SCMs like Mercurial and Git remove the concept of privileged source control groups, so it becomes massively easier for everyone to use everyone else's code (and they generally have better merging too). That will help LL take advantage of community mods, as well as help the community stop living in the shadow of LL as prime source.
[17:38]	Rex Cronon:	is that a form of protection against tearing your hair out:)
[17:38]	Rex Cronon:	i am talking about the shaved heads
[17:38]	Charlette Proto:	BTW does anyone have any idea if viewer 2 will be OpenSim 'friendly'
[17:38]	Morgaine Dinova:	LL is heading towards interop, Charlette, so in general, yes.
[17:39]	Erinyse Planer:	okay to summerize...mercurial should help limit the number of accidental errors that crop into the code, and when they do emerge should make it more clear when they were introduced and who by?
[17:39]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... I don't know if they're testing it on OpenSim. Good question for Merov
[17:39]	Charlette Proto:	but cross-grid TPs eg from enterprise to SL???
[17:39]	Arawn Spitteler:	Will User Upgrades become more Entertaining?
[17:39]	Morgaine Dinova:	Erinyse: no, Hg won't help improve programming issues. It's not for that
[17:40]	Andrew Linden:	mercurial will make merge things much smarter, and yes I think it will make it easier to point blame a the person who broke stuff
[17:40]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hg is about sharing code, basically. Little else.
[17:40]	Charlette Proto:	the grid authentication on the avatar server and the UI for it would have to be developed in tandem
[17:40]	Andrew Linden:	under SVN it is sometimes hard to apply the "blame tool"
[17:40]	Andrew Linden:	but mercurial should make it easier
[17:41]	Andrew Linden:	SVN = subversion
[17:41]	Andrew Linden:	HG = mercurial
[17:41]	Morgaine Dinova:	Git == Git
[17:41]	Morgaine Dinova:	:P
[17:41]	Erinyse Planer:	morgaine let me rephrase... to accidental errors from conflicting code changes resulting from people having differant versions of the "working code"
[17:42]	Charlette Proto:	d: = :P in quantom imposition
[17:42]	Andrew Linden:	lessee... other news: we actually have a Havok7 branch that we'll submit for QA soon. Maybe it will even get into server-1.38.
[17:42]	Arawn Spitteler:	UnderHood Improvements?
[17:42]	Andrew Linden:	Not much changed in the Havok7 port -- a few performance optimizations is all.
[17:43]	Morgaine Dinova:	Has Enus automated physics testing yet?
[17:43]	Andrew Linden:	All in the physics engine, doesn't improve scripts or other stuff the server does
[17:43]	Morgaine Dinova:	So mostly regression testing
[17:43]	Andrew Linden:	No automated physics tests or benchmarks yet that I know of.
[17:44]	Erinyse Planer:	does the havak 7 port help the slowdowns sim isde when say 50 avis try to move all at once?
[17:44]	Andrew Linden:	Enus Linden wanted us to provide some benchmarks that showed that Havok7 was not slower than Havok4.
[17:44]	Charlette Proto:	is it true that codename for Havoc8 is Utopia
[17:44]	Charlette Proto:	Enus should be reported for inappropriate avatar name
[17:45]	Arawn Spitteler:	I wouldn't pronbounce it that way
[17:45]	Andrew Linden:	A little bit Erinyse, however I suspect that has more to do with the "interestlist" code that sends packets of update info to the 50 viewers.
[17:45]	Erinyse Planer:	jsut curious *shrugs*
[17:46]	RavenMoon Zelin:	Hi Becky
[17:46]	Erinyse Planer:	sorry im asking so many "stupid" questions... trying to understand the stuff so that i can answer questions later
[17:46]	Simon Linden:	If you have 50 AVs moving around, there are likely to be more collisions and thus work for the physics engine. So some better performance might help there, but I don't think it's significantly better in that area
[17:47]	Rex Cronon:	could it be possible to have sims that don't use havok?
[17:47]	Charlette Proto:	one thing I've observed lately (3 months or so) is that 40 avs just isn't a realistic load on the sim and one can't walk any more when that level is reached
[17:48]	Erinyse Planer:	I understand simon. but for some reason it seemed havak4 supported less simultanious movement then the previous version where sl was concerned...
[17:48]	Andrew Linden:	It would be pretty hard to make the simulators run without Havok -- it could be done but much content would break.
[17:48]	Simon Linden:	Babbage announced some improvements for SVC-3895 today
[17:48]	Rezzing Mono	scripted object cripples sim FPS
[17:48]	Andrew Linden:	He did? I have to read my email.
[17:49]	Erinyse Planer:	ie sims that previously supported 70 avis moving simultaniously now have trouble with 35 and cripple or crash with 45
[17:49]	Charlette Proto:	no kidding, walking in welcome areas these days is next to impossible
[17:49]	Simon Linden:	He made a fix that improves the repeated loading of mono scripts much faster
[17:49]	Charlette Proto:	agree Erinyse
[17:49]	Simon Linden:	I'm not sure if it helps with the first time arrival, however
[17:49]	Morgaine Dinova:	Sim scalability is dropping as the years go by, simply because people's expectations are rising (quite naturally). Sim design hasn't changed to match that level of expectation --- sims are exactly as non-scalable in design now as they were 6 years ago.
[17:50]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... as I recall there was a performance problem with avatars in Havok4 but I thought we fixed it.
[17:50]	Andrew Linden:	Perhaps there is still another problem.
[17:50]	Liisa Runo:	welcome area's are lagged cause there is too many griefers injecting animations and sounds to other ppls clients
[17:50]	Liisa Runo:	:P
[17:50]	Erinyse Planer:	its better then it was andrew... but not as good as pre havak four... movement wise...
[17:50]	Erinyse Planer:	and then mono problems and others... adding to it *Shrugs*
[17:51]	Charlette Proto:	agree Liisa - if you look at log (debug) it is full of missing stuff and invalid attachment point warnings
[17:51]	Erinyse Planer:	there are anumber of sims and even continents that still yearn for premono and pre havak 4 days...
[17:51]	Rex Cronon:	attachment errors r from those using emerald
[17:51]	Liisa Runo:	i visited a welcome area couple days ago, almost everyone were doing "hei hitler" anim
[17:51]	Charlette Proto:	also avatar WARNING appearance without any parameters
[17:51]	Liisa Runo:	heil*
[17:52]	Charlette Proto:	doing the same animation isn't a server problem
[17:52]	Simon Linden:	yeah, I really think the welcome areas scare away a lot of new folks
[17:52]	Charlette Proto:	repeated requests for missing or invalid stuff is worse
[17:53]	Liisa Runo:	anyway, i was not serious with the griefers lagging the sim with injections, every place is laggy with 40+ ppl, griefers or not
[17:53]	Simon Linden:	Are those requests coming from the viewer, or to it?
[17:53]	Charlette Proto:	here now i only see the display_status lines, in WAs it is all the invalid attachment point errors and missing textures
[17:53]	Lazrith Fardel:	well,... you could make the ppl "learn" how to activate the ambiant sound and particals,.. that way you won't get that spam attac as a new avatar,...
[17:53]	Erinyse Planer:	i really wish more work was done to make the welcome areas more optional and make it harder for older avis and for new alts to get into them
[17:54]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hopefully Viewer2.0 has better features for griefing identification and defence. And by default, those should be turned ON in the welcome areas for newbies.
[17:54]	Rex Cronon:	i bet hitler had now idea he will become so famous:)
[17:54]	Charlette Proto:	the client side debug console and the SecondLife.log file - I've had 42MB of log once
[17:54]	Arawn Spitteler	takes a moment, to see if Hitler is in world...
[17:55]	Rex Cronon:	wouldn't be "interesting" if there was an avatar with that name. lol
[17:55]	Andrew Linden	feels like he has a lot of work to do.
[17:55]	office hours	is almost over
[17:55]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: and you don't scale :P
[17:55]	Erinyse Planer	feels kinda bad for andrew right now
[17:56]	Lazrith Fardel:	if there is a way to " block" all gestures and inventory on a welcome iland then you have a lot les options as a greever
[17:56]	Morgaine Dinova	wonders how to clone Andrew, we need at least 300
[17:56]	Andrew Linden:	Well, the external gesture and fake inventory offers should be stopped first.
[17:57]	Andrew Linden:	Then we should profile the lag there and hammer down the top nails.
[17:57]	Andrew Linden:	It isn't hard to forsee the work that would be required.
[17:57]	Erinyse Planer:	I know ild get lynched most places for saying this but i really wouldnt mind seeing gestures removed from SL altogether
[17:57]	Charlette Proto:	one interesting I've seen lately is this: 2009-12-28T19:37:48Z WARNING: LLImageGL::setSubImage: Setting subimage on image without GL texture 2009-12-28T19:37:49Z WARNING: LLImageGL::setSubImage: Setting subimage on image without GL texture
[17:58]	Andrew Linden:	However, I look at my schedule and wonder how I could get to it.
[17:58]	Liisa Runo:	Andrew, go to your boss, and demand more minions
[17:58]	Charlette Proto:	would that be an asset fail or rendering stream in the viewer?
[17:58]	Arawn Spitteler:	Minions require training
[17:58]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... I don't know much about that WARNING. I wonder if it should be removed -- not realy WARNING material, or if we should be fixing something.
[17:58]	Andrew Linden:	I'll ask some of the Viewer developers.
[17:59]	Simon Linden:	We have added some minions :) That's how we're getting Havok 7
[17:59]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: easy solution, if there's a will. Refactor some of the sim side that isn't too sensitive, and turn it into an open source project. Instant minions.
[18:00]	Charlette Proto:	all these WARNING JIRAs get put under http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-13486 and the problem is described so lame it remains unassigned and will never be fixed
[18:00]	Texture rendering	fail
[18:00]	Lazrith Fardel:	when it comes to most minions,... most want a igor,..that pulls the switch,... not the mnad prof that makes the doom machine
[18:00]	Erinyse Planer:	I sometimes wonder if it would be easier to just make SL 2.0 from scratch then trying to expand/fix/replace-on-the-fly whats already here
[18:00]	Thank you	for coming to Linden office hours
[18:00]	Simon Linden:	Or the young upstart who's so good they eventually defeat the master
[18:00]	Andrew Linden:	Charlette, what version of viewer are you using?
[18:01]	Charlette Proto:	Snowglobe
[18:01]	Simon Linden:	I have to run ... have another obligation. Thanks everyone for coming, see you next Tuesday or Friday
[18:01]	Erinyse Planer:	1.2 or 1.3 charlette?
[18:01]	Liisa Runo:	Thanks Simon and Andrew, your bunnehs <3
[18:01]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cyu Simon, tc :-)
[18:01]	Charlette Proto:	all versions seem to have the same issues (Test Builds and regular)
[18:01]	Erinyse Planer:	thanks simon and andrew :)
[18:01]	Simon Linden:	Bye :)
[18:01]	Rex Cronon:	tc simon
[18:01]	Lazrith Fardel:	bye
[18:02]	Charlette Proto:	then there is the alt viewer related stuff: 2009-12-12T13:18:22Z WARNING: LLKeyframeMotion::deserialize: joint not found: rightEye 2009-12-12T13:18:22Z WARNING: LLKeyframeMotion::deserialize: joint not found: rThumb1
[18:02]	Charlette Proto:	attachments on invalid joints
[18:02]	Charlette Proto:	that is as common as Emerald
[18:02]	Andrew Linden:	Charlette, I asked Bao Linden about that WARNING
[18:02]	Andrew Linden:	he says it is a bug -- shouldn't happen
[18:02]	Andrew Linden:	as opposed to just a WARNING that should be removed
[18:03]	Andrew Linden:	also, I learned this little tidbit...
[18:03]	Rex Cronon:	the bad part is that all those warning generate lag for those that don't use emerald:(
[18:03]	Andrew Linden:	snowglob's render pipeline is mostly the same as the viewer2.0 render pipeline
[18:03]	Charlette Proto:	well the JIRA is being ignored and I keep sending IMs to Alexa but she isn't doing a thing just removes the names from JIRAs
[18:03]	Andrew Linden:	so that means two things:
[18:03]	Arawn Spitteler:	Is there an attachment number, for rPinky Toe?
[18:03]	Andrew Linden:	(1) they are interested in fixing bugs there
[18:04]	Andrew Linden:	as opposed to viewer-1.23 pipeline which they dont' want to maintaint anymore
[18:04]	Rex Cronon:	i am thinking of some other body parts that could become attachements:)
[18:04]	Erinyse Planer	keeps comments about alexa to herself
[18:04]	Andrew Linden:	and (2) the changes that make Viewer2.0 special are new features and UI, not the render pipeline so much.
[18:05]	Charlette Proto:	but Snow Test Builds should be close to where Viewer 2 is going and I use the newest every time it updates, but JIRAs go without any attention
[18:05]	Andrew Linden:	So, Bao Linden says you could open a bug about that WARNING if it hasn't been filed yet.
[18:05]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: I hope that that doesn't also mean that Viewer2.0 retains the same networking-rendering coupling that we've endured so long. It's by far the biggest reason for making a new viewer, the worst part of it.
[18:05]	Andrew Linden:	hrm...
[18:05]	Ardy Lay:	Are you reporting in project SNOW or VWR?
[18:05]	Charlette Proto:	my JIRAs on this have all been put under the lame texture rendering fault
[18:06]	Charlette Proto:	Snow 1.3 and 1,2
[18:06]	Erinyse Planer:	youre reporting them as snow issues and they are being moved to vwr?
[18:06]	Erinyse Planer:	*facepalms*
[18:06]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, so that wasn't very helpful then. Bao basically owns the texture render pipeline these days. He should be getting the bugs on his plate.
[18:07]	Charlette Proto:	no they get put under a nightly Snow JIRA that really doesn't deal with the issue of warnings but textures not rendering
[18:07]	Erinyse Planer:	and alexa is the one moving them?
[18:08]	Charlette Proto:	I'll IM him, maybe he could look at it, Alexa just deletes the names of avatars causing it
[18:08]	Charlette Proto:	no Alexa has a thing for me using names as if these were secret
[18:08]	Erinyse Planer:	*facepalms*
[18:09]	Andrew Linden	makes a note to see if these texture bugs are getting to Bao.
[18:09]	Charlette Proto:	I made a post on the blog with 1000 mutes and she's gone feral on me using names now
[18:09]	Andrew Linden:	ok I've got to run -- someone is asking for help about some coding issue.
[18:09]	Andrew Linden:	thanks for coming everyone
[18:09]	Erinyse Planer:	thanks andrew
[18:09]	Becky Pippen:	Thanks Andrew!
[18:09]	Andrew Linden:	and I should repeat:
[18:09]	Charlette Proto:	thanks Andrew
[18:09]	Arawn Spitteler:	WE lose you to a minion?
[18:09]	Rex Cronon:	tc andrew
[18:09]	Morgaine Dinova:	Thanks Andrew, tc :-)
[18:09]	Andrew Linden:	these thursday office hours are moving to Friday 16:00 - 17:00.
[18:09]	Lazrith Fardel:	tc andrew
[18:09]	Charlette Proto:	BTW did we decide on the future time for OH?
[18:10]	Erinyse Planer:	friday 4pm slt charlette
[18:10]	Andrew Linden:	yes, Friday one hour earlier.
[18:10]	Arawn Spitteler:	Friday Tea, try to invite your wife, some time; we'd all like to meet her
[18:10]	Morgaine Dinova:	The OH HUD should change automatically if the LL OHs page info is updated, yeah?
[18:10]	Charlette Proto:	I'll bring beer since it will be on Saturdays my time
[18:11]	Lazrith Fardel:	bye everyone, have fun
[18:11]	Andrew Linden:	Dunno if the OH HUD is that smart.
[18:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cyu Laz
[18:11]	Rex Cronon:	bye to all those leaving

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