User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 July 19: Difference between revisions

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New page: * [8:27] Sicarius Fegte: Havent seen this many lindens in one location in a long time. ITS A RAID! * [8:27] Sicarius Fegte: Well hello all...
 
Replacing page with 'see June not July '
 
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* [8:27] [[User:Sicarius Fegte|Sicarius Fegte]]:  Havent seen this many lindens in one location in a long time. ITS A RAID!
see [[User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2008_June_19 | June not July ]]
* [8:27] [[User:Sicarius Fegte|Sicarius Fegte]]:  Well hello all :)
* [8:27] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  hi sic
* [8:27] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  :)
* [8:27] [[User:Locklainn Linden|Locklainn Linden]]:  hi
* [8:28] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  'Morning :-)
* [8:28] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Not seen you before Lock, how goes? :-)
* [8:28] [[User:Sicarius Fegte|Sicarius Fegte]]:  Sooo how about those Mets
* [8:28] [[User:Locklainn Linden|Locklainn Linden]]:  not too bad
* [8:28] [[User:Locklainn Linden|Locklainn Linden]]:  I'm a new intern for Linden
* [8:29] [[User:Sicarius Fegte|Sicarius Fegte]]:  Well congrats Lock, I am sure you will be learning alot
* [8:29] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Hehe, "intern" as in buried in work? :-)
* [8:29] [[User:Sicarius Fegte|Sicarius Fegte]]:  Nice gun btw, especially for a monk :)
* [8:29] [[User:Locklainn Linden|Locklainn Linden]]:  thank you, and no doubt! I can tell already
* [8:29] [[User:Locklainn Linden|Locklainn Linden]]:  haha, no not buried yet
* [8:29] [[User:Locklainn Linden|Locklainn Linden]]:  hopefully soon
* [8:29] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  we'll fix that
* [8:29] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  LOL
* [8:29] [[User:Locklainn Linden|Locklainn Linden]]:  exactly
* [8:30] [[User:Sicarius Fegte|Sicarius Fegte]]:  Yeah, hell I can fix that, come to our sims and tell me why the lag is insane since havok4 went in :)
* [8:30] [[User:Sicarius Fegte|Sicarius Fegte]]:  Teasing
* [8:30] [[User:Sicarius Fegte|Sicarius Fegte]]:  Or am I? :)
* [8:30] [[User:Locklainn Linden|Locklainn Linden]]:  haha
* [8:31] [[User:Sicarius Fegte|Sicarius Fegte]]:  all joking aside you should swing by the land of nor sometime, judging by your guns you would get a kick out of it
* [8:31] [[User:Sicarius Fegte|Sicarius Fegte]]:  basically an MMO
* [8:31] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Well, if you're a dev intern, more diagnostic tools for figuring out what's wrong with sims are prolly always welcome :-)
* [8:31] [[User:Locklainn Linden|Locklainn Linden]]:  oh nice
* [8:31] [[User:Locklainn Linden|Locklainn Linden]]:  got a landmark?
* [8:31] [[User:Sicarius Fegte|Sicarius Fegte]]:  Though obviously I suggest an alt, people see Linden there they will either bug you to hell or shoot you :)
* [8:32] [[User:Sicarius Fegte|Sicarius Fegte]]:  yeah one sec
* [8:32] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Aye
* [8:32] [[User:Locklainn Linden|Locklainn Linden]]:  I'm going to be working on the client protocol testing
* [8:32] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  i'm hoping lock can help us out with the pyogp effort morgaine
* [8:32] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  suweetness
* [8:32] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Oh neat
* [8:32] [[User:Locklainn Linden|Locklainn Linden]]:  well, if they'll shoot me, then..
* [8:32] [[User:Locklainn Linden|Locklainn Linden]]:  ITS ON
* [8:32] [[User:Locklainn Linden|Locklainn Linden]]:  and if they bug me, then...
* [8:32] [[User:Sicarius Fegte|Sicarius Fegte]]:  hehe Yeah you will fit right in :)
* [8:32] [[User:Locklainn Linden|Locklainn Linden]]:  yea, its ON
* [8:33] [[User:Locklainn Linden|Locklainn Linden]]:  haha
* [8:33] [[User:Sicarius Fegte|Sicarius Fegte]]:  Ah Enus, I knew I recognized that name. SL5B see you there :)
* [8:33] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Is there an agenda for today?
* [8:33] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  sure thing sic.
* [8:33] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Hi Sai
* [8:34] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  Morgaine, tess was *gonna* run the show, but she was having power issues and has crapped out
* [8:34] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Ouchies
* [8:34] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:  hello everybody
* [8:34] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Hi Rex
* [8:34] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  so, we can talk test harness to the degree that we're willing
* [8:34] [[User:Locklainn Linden|Locklainn Linden]]:  hi rex
* [8:34] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:  hiii...
* [8:34] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  i know of no other topics
* [8:35] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  we can wait a few more to get rolling for real though, let folks wander in
* [8:35] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  any topics you'd like to suggest, lemme know
* [8:35] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  hamilton is gracing us with his presence as well... hi hamilton
* [8:35] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Test harness is always a good topic, seeing as so much new stuff will need testing
* [8:36] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Hi Hamilton
* [8:36] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:  hello hamilton
* [8:36] [[User:Hamilton Linden|Hamilton Linden]]:  Hi guys
* [8:36] [[User:Baron Nowhere|Baron Nowhere]]:  I saw on the viewer roadmap a "browser based" hud [(http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_Roadmap)] and was interested in hearing how that fit into the architecture, and if that was different from media on prims, and maybe a primer on how users would interact with the hud
* [8:37] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  I don't know anything about that effort Baron, willing to poke in internal tools for a sec to see...
* [8:38] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  might as well get started...
* [8:38] [[User:Hamilton Linden|Hamilton Linden]]:  Guys, next Thursday I'll be hosting this meeting and getting feedback on AWG interop testing with OpenSim and our roadmap for interop
* [8:38] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Excellent
* [8:38] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:  so the topic or tpoics for today are...?
* [8:38] [[User:Hamilton Linden|Hamilton Linden]]:  so if you have interest or might know someone who does with doing interop testing with our AgentDomain be sure to attend
* [8:38] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  Hi everyone, I'll be your proxy tess for now, who is actually a proxy for zero, who is taking a much deserved break from us all
* [8:38] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  topics: test harness
* [8:39] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:  hi enus
* [8:39] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  and anything else that comes up
* [8:39] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  heya rex
* [8:39] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  topics: and test cases
* [8:39] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Wow, double proxy ;-)
* [8:39] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  oh yes please
* [8:39] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  crap gesture again
* [8:39] [[User:Locklainn Linden|Locklainn Linden]]:  haha
* [8:39] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  infin*ty change your name lol
* [8:39] [[User:Tess Linden|Tess Linden]]:  hey guys, im back
* [8:39] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:  wb tess
* [8:39] [[User:Sicarius Fegte|Sicarius Fegte]]:  welcome back
* [8:40] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Inifnity must be the other side of Zero ;-)
* [8:40] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  so test harness: refers to the pyogp work that AWG and LL are undertaking as a joint effort to test the OGP documentation and implementations
* [8:40] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  lol morgaine
* [8:40] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  [http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AWG_Test_Harness]
* [8:40] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  we like to say "somewhere between infinity and zero we'll find a solutiin:
* [8:40] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  lol
* [8:40] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  except we type better in the office
* [8:41] [[User:Tess Linden|Tess Linden]]:  today I invited Enus to talk about the test harnes and organizing the test harnes to test each ccomponent of the client , agent domain, and region domain
* [8:41] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  the intent is to build a python based client library and test harness that can be used to interact with the various domains that are being defined in the Open Grid Protocol
* [8:41] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Looks like Sai's in trouble, yoyoing
* [8:42] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  [http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLGOGP_Draft_1]
* [8:42] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  we've gotten started to a degree on the code base and test framework, but it's totally a rough draft.
* [8:43] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  there is a public svn with what's been done to date, but there is first a decision to be made about library framework
* [8:43] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  i've stubbed out a simple python class structure here: [http://svn.secondlife.com/trac/linden/browser/projects/2008/pyogp]
* [8:43] [[User:Gareth Ellison|Gareth Ellison]]:  zero on holiday this time?
* [8:44] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Yep Gareth, Tess has the chair, and Enus is on the throne
* [8:44] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  Tao akashi has stubbed out a different implementation, that favors component based python using zca (zope component architecture) here: [http://code.google.com/p/pysecondlife/wiki/PyOGP]
* [8:44] [[User:Gareth Ellison|Gareth Ellison]]:  plain python is vastly preferable: eliminate the deps
* [8:44] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  I dearly hope to have Tao convince us collectively that zca is 1. better and 2. not too challenging to implement
* [8:44] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  good input, Gareth
* [8:45] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  i agree gareth, but, if zca enables easy plugins
* [8:45] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  and can be explained in a simple wiki
* [8:45] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  i think it's worth running with it
* [8:45] [[User:Gareth Ellison|Gareth Ellison]]:  i'm just pondering the mess of deps for mulib
* [8:45] [[User:Gareth Ellison|Gareth Ellison]]:  don't want a repeat of that if possible
* [8:46] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  Tao is going to attempt to build out a working login model this weekendf
* [8:46] [[User:Gareth Ellison|Gareth Ellison]]:  since it's highly irritating setting up mulib on a new box
* [8:46] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  I hope to compare my simple python vs tao's zca early next week and move forward with one or the other
* [8:46] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:  is Tao agtive on #pyogp?
* [8:46] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Would it require only a small part of Zope? Being dependent on the whole huge thing doesn't sound like a good idea.
* [8:46] [[User:Gareth Ellison|Gareth Ellison]]:  if truth be told, that's why i personally don't use mulib and use web.py and some weird hacks
* [8:46] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:  *active
* [8:46] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  checking
* [8:47] [[User:Tess Linden|Tess Linden]]:  does anyone else have any lean one way or the other ?
* [8:47] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  gareth... do you have a list of the "weird hax"?
* [8:47] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  taos on the way
* [8:47] [[User:Gareth Ellison|Gareth Ellison]]:  i have my custom little BaseHTTPServer-based httpd
* [8:47] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  Personally I like having fewer dependencies
* [8:47] [[User:Gareth Ellison|Gareth Ellison]]:  which i then have a wrapper round to integrate with web.py
* [8:48] [[User:Mrs Sterling|Mrs Sterling]]:  lmao
* [8:48] [[User:Mrs Sterling|Mrs Sterling]]:  i'm stuck
* [8:48] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  but I don't really know too much about ZCA, so it's hard for me to say it's too much
* [8:48] [[User:Gareth Ellison|Gareth Ellison]]:  i've been working on porting mudata (my mulib extension that adds MySQL representation to mulib)
* [8:48] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  There is one huge problem with using Zope, beyond the mere dependencies one: it means that this will never be portable to anything other than Python.
* [8:48] [[User:Gareth Ellison|Gareth Ellison]]:  3 points to morgaine
* [8:48] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  Hi
* [8:48] [[User:Gareth Ellison|Gareth Ellison]]:  tao - lecture us on ZCA
* [8:48] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  well.... we are talking about the python implementation..
* [8:48] [[User:Sumax Mighty|Sumax Mighty]]:  Greetings eveyrone.
* [8:49] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  I forgot my slides ;-)
* [8:49] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  portablity is a good point: i'd envision a good buildout of the libraries, and then applying them in many different environments
* [8:49] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  but I can give you the basic idea
* [8:49] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  but python is at the core use
* [8:49] [[User:Gareth Ellison|Gareth Ellison]]:  technically speaking portability of the code isn't that important
* [8:49] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  yes*
* [8:49] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  there's no reason you can't take the OGP spec and implement tests in Smalltalk, Java ,Javascript or even Visual Basic
* [8:49] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:  hi tao, hi sumax
* [8:49] [[User:Gareth Ellison|Gareth Ellison]]:  if the protocol can be implemented in other languages: yay
* [8:49] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  the protocol is supposed to be implemented in other langs ;-)
* [8:49] [[User:Gareth Ellison|Gareth Ellison]]:  i.e don't do the OGS thing and use .NET remoting......
* [8:49] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  so Tao: plain python vs zca
* [8:50] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  advantages, disadvantages
* [8:50] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  ?
* [8:50] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  so, the basic idea of the ZCA is that you define interfaces for your components
* [8:50] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  (and thanks for popping in)
* [8:50] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  this gives you the advantage of independance of the actual implementation
* [8:50] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  I would perfer we be able to write individual test cases such that they work in both "plain" and "ZCA" variants
* [8:50] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Infinity: a test harness is typically the start and the reference for many projects that use the thing being tested. Porting to a different modern language is easy, but if the test harness relies on a big infrastructure system like Zope then changing language may not be so easy.
* [8:50] [[User:Tess Linden|Tess Linden]]:  hi Tao :)
* [8:50] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  maybe it's better when I come with some examples ;-)
* [8:50] [[User:Bartholomew Kleiber|Bartholomew Kleiber]]:  Hi Tao and all
* [8:51] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  And the protocol is of course language-independent, not Python-specific.
* [8:51] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  Yeah... I see what you're saying... ew're actually hoping people will use our test harness as example code
* [8:51] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:  hi bartholomew
* [8:51] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  tao, can we look at what you've stubbed out for examples (even if they are incomplete?)
* [8:51] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  so for instance you can have an interface calles IAgent and a class which implements it
* [8:52] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  but ZCA vs. "regular" python won't make anyone more or less interested in other implementeations
* [8:52] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  (okay... just pretend I can type this morning)
* [8:52] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  well.. unless ZCA'c componentness is only expressable in python
* [8:52] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  I am just looking for the stub example
* [8:53] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  so here is an example of an interface definition: [http://code.google.com/p/pysecondlife/source/browse/pyogp/pyogp.model/trunk/pyogp/model/interfaces.py]
* [8:53] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Poor Sai. His computer seems to be possessed.
* [8:53] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  bascially the class implementing this interface simply needs to add an implements(IAgent)
* [8:53] [[User:Gareth Ellison|Gareth Ellison]]:  tao, about ZCA
* [8:53] [[User:Gareth Ellison|Gareth Ellison]]:  can't you do something like that in any OOP language?
* [8:53] [[User:Gareth Ellison|Gareth Ellison]]:  just define a base class or an interface
* [8:53] [[User:Gareth Ellison|Gareth Ellison]]:  and override methods
* [8:53] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  which you can see here: [http://code.google.com/p/pysecondlife/source/browse/pyogp/pyogp.model/trunk/pyogp/model/agent.py]
* [8:53] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  yes, we had that in Zope2
* [8:54] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  and ended up with a lot of mixed in base classes
* [8:54] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  nobody knew anymore where what came from
* [8:54] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:  a uml class diagram might be quit usefull:)
* [8:54] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  in general, each OO language that supports reflection has something referred to as a "component model"
* [8:54] [[User:Bartholomew Kleiber|Bartholomew Kleiber]]:  seh Dich
* [8:54] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  if we were masochistic, we could even use the CORBA Component Model
* [8:54] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  so one example would be that you need a size method for a document
* [8:54] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  but the Document class does not provide it
* [8:54] [[User:Gareth Ellison|Gareth Ellison]]:  if you just define one base class for each interface, what's wrong with doing that? it lets you plug in other implementations easily
* [8:55] [[User:Gareth Ellison|Gareth Ellison]]:  in fact, technically you don't need any base class at all in python
* [8:55] [[User:Gareth Ellison|Gareth Ellison]]:  duck typing
* [8:55] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  but if it implements IDocument which might contain a getContent() method then some function can use getContent() to compute the size
* [8:55] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  here's my first pass an at agent base class: [http://svn.secondlife.com/trac/linden/browser/projects/2008/pyogp/pyogp/lib/agent.py]
* [8:55] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  so in this case you can "adapt" the document to an adapter which provides getSize()
* [8:55] [[User:Locklainn Linden|Locklainn Linden]]:  so it seems ZCA is just used to allow interfaces, but python allows it implicitly?
* [8:55] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  I'm not yet seeing the advantage of zca implementations
* [8:55] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  well, you can do it more aspect oriented
* [8:55] [[User:Gareth Ellison|Gareth Ellison]]:  the l33t don't bother with actually overriding methods or implementing the spec, but add new methods at runtime: all this powerful hackery in this beautiful language and you want it to live in the world of lesser languages?
* [8:56] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  but my brain is being difficult
* [8:56] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  you need the getSize() method and then you adapt the object to the ISize interface like this: ISize(document)
* [8:56] [[User:Gareth Ellison|Gareth Ellison]]:  lesser languages have static typing
* [8:56] [[User:Gareth Ellison|Gareth Ellison]]:  you need to pass function X an object that implements ISomeInterface
* [8:56] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  keep in mind my secret shame is a love of JavaScript
* [8:56] [[User:Gareth Ellison|Gareth Ellison]]:  python you don't need to bother with ISomeInterface
* [8:56] [[User:Gareth Ellison|Gareth Ellison]]:  excuse the lag
* [8:56] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  basically this is what you are doing (passing this to a function/class) which implements getSize() but in a uniform way
* [8:57] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  and you can exchange the adapter used by configuration
* [8:57] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  I don't think we want a language war about this. But I can't see the major plus yet that would overcome the disadvantages of the large depedency.
* [8:58] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  what large dependancy?
* [8:58] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Zope
* [8:58] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  it's not Zope
* [8:58] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  it's a small part of Zope which was factored out
* [8:58] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Ah, good info at last :-)
* [8:58] [[User:Locklainn Linden|Locklainn Linden]]:  haha
* [8:58] [[User:Gareth Ellison|Gareth Ellison]]:  just reading over the code in that repo and there's stupidly large levels of nested directory structures too, quite ugly
* [8:58] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  I don't want to build this on Zope ;-)
* [8:58] [[User:Gareth Ellison|Gareth Ellison]]:  really you should only need a few modules:
* [8:58] [[User:Gareth Ellison|Gareth Ellison]]:  1 common with misc utils and stuff
* [8:58] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  Gareth: That's namespaces used by eggs
* [8:59] [[User:Gareth Ellison|Gareth Ellison]]:  and 1 for agent domain
* [8:59] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  I like it because it allows of separate packages which can be developed independant
* [8:59] [[User:Gareth Ellison|Gareth Ellison]]:  1 for region domain
* [8:59] [[User:Gareth Ellison|Gareth Ellison]]:  etc
* [8:59] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  even on different repos and still can share the same namespace
* [8:59] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:  if there is a uml class diagram, there is no need for war. anybody can implemented in whatever language they like. although it isn't that easy to make the diagram:)
* [8:59] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  and could more easily be exchanged
* [8:59] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  Rex +1
* [8:59] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:  [http://www.muthukadan.net/docs/zca.html]
* [8:59] [[User:Locklainn Linden|Locklainn Linden]]:  right, but if I'm right then the point is so that we don't all do the same work?
* [8:59] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  so as I see much opposition of using ZCA I am not sure how we go from here
* [9:00] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  I don't really want to miss this feature ;-)
* [9:00] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Hmmm, no ZCA in Portage yet. How long ago was it factored out of Zope?
* [9:01] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  zope.interface and zope.component are the eggs
* [9:01] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  what do we lose by omitting zca?
* [9:01] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  [http://pypi.python.org/pypi/zope.interface/3.4.1]
* [9:01] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  flexibility
* [9:01] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  and independance of parts
* [9:01] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  so I cannot simply replace the agent implementation of the lib because you hardwired import pyogp.lib.agent
* [9:01] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Oh, it's still bundled in with Zope? So we *do* have to install all of Zope before we can use ZCA?
* [9:02] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  no, it's a separate egg
* [9:02] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:  ZCA seems to be Python's anwer to what is built into Smalltalk and other pure OOP langauges
* [9:02] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  but in the zope namespace to show where it's coming from
* [9:02] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  Smalltalk +1
* [9:03] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  I use ZCA regularly also without Zope
* [9:03] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Well, it's not in Portage, whereas Zope is. So I guess the Gentoo community isn't happy with ZCA as a separate component.
* [9:03] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  well, I tend to not use packages but use easy_install and buildouts to retrieve packages
* [9:03] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  and eggs is the python package format
* [9:04] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  they get installed locally in the buildout sandbox which makes this independant from the rest of the system
* [9:04] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  so I can also use different versions of eggs in different sandboxes that way
* [9:04] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  is starting to see how zca is useful, but, is the component aspect such a big advantage in this effort that the percieved barrier of a steep learning curve a hinderance to adoption/contribution, etc?
* [9:04] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  I think basic ZCA is not really that hard. Maybe some good example is missing
* [9:05] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  but I also think that maybe the test harness does not really need to use it while I think the lib could benefit from it
* [9:05] [[User:Tess Linden|Tess Linden]]:  wel.. everyone still has to learn the interfaces of our home grown system
* [9:05] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  True, Tess
* [9:05] [[User:Tess Linden|Tess Linden]]:  can we use an example to compare?
* [9:05] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  so who here actually would work on a python based test harness
* [9:05] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  ?
* [9:05] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  would a PyUnit test on ZCA be radically different than on "stock python"?
* [9:05] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  Infinity: nope
* [9:05] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  would be the same tbh
* [9:05] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  grrr
* [9:05] [[User:Locklainn Linden|Locklainn Linden]]:  I'm going to be working on it all summer
* [9:05] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  disables that gesture for good
* [9:06] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  chuckles @ gesture
* [9:06] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  ZCA is also really not radically different from stock python
* [9:06] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:  The ZCA defines a 'component' simply as an object that explicitly declares that it provides one or more interfaces. For example:
* [9:06] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  totally missed teh gesture... probably a good thing
* [9:06] [[User:Tess Linden|Tess Linden]]:  Tao: I would write test
* [9:06] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  it just adds the interface concept and you have to register which class implements which interface and you retrieve those classes by their interface name instead of the class name
* [9:06] [[User:Tess Linden|Tess Linden]]:  tests*
* [9:06] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  then somebody can override this
* [9:06] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  it also makes it easier to create smaller modules instead of big classes
* [9:06] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  which IMHO is a big plus also for testing and clarity
* [9:07] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  maybe the answer is to write a "stock" pyunit test
* [9:07] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:  like I said, its Python's answer to what pure oop does automatically
* [9:07] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  then have Tao "port" it to ZCA
* [9:07] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Perhaps someone can show us a use case of how this helps in a test harness?
* [9:07] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  true tao, we want to be able to test at minute levels
* [9:07] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  in the meantime Sai and I will be writing SUnit tests
* [9:07] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  well, that was one idea. I look on what you come up with and port it to use ZCA ;-)
* [9:08] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  because you might have a better idea on what to test actually and how ;_)
* [9:08] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  as you know the system
* [9:08] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:  Morgaine, the only issue I see with ZCA is whether or not there's a problem with using other languages which lack a component registration facility. It' what many languages have as part of hte language definition, as far as I can tell
* [9:08] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  *actully I jest , I don't think I;ll be able to write teh SUnit tests unless we know we have the pyunit tests working
* [9:08] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Indeed --- nobody said there needs to be only one single test harness! :-)))
* [9:08] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  another question is whether to use buildout or not
* [9:08] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  but someone made a comment earlier about how test harneses are used by developers in an attempt to grok the api
* [9:08] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  there are nice recipes which collect all the test in all modules and let you run them automatically
* [9:09] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  I've definitely seen that effect too
* [9:09] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:  and come to think of it, wouldn't it be possible to write a ZCA wrapper around a C or C++ module?
* [9:09] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  well, I would also write tests for the lib
* [9:09] [[User:Tess Linden|Tess Linden]]:  morgaine: we'd like to concentrate our efforts so we can get more coverage
* [9:09] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  and while we don't want to put all our eggs in one basket
* [9:09] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  in doctest style so you can also explain what's happening a bit more
* [9:09] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:  winces at python reference
* [9:09] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  if ew concentrate.. yup... what Tess said
* [9:09] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  How actually do you want to use the lib in other languages then?
* [9:09] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  be it with or without ZCA?
* [9:10] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  or are we speaking about porting it?
* [9:10] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Sai: no language *really* has a component registration mechanism built in. They all create one by layering on top of base functionality.
* [9:10] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  and what's the purpose of the test harness? to test components in whatever language to check if they work?
* [9:10] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:  hmmm, well, but some have more basic base functionality than others, so the architecture is a tad thinner
* [9:11] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  well, the ZCA of course is also on top of plain python
* [9:11] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  but it gives you a central registry
* [9:11] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  Tao.. our purpose for a test harness is mostly to "just run the tests"
* [9:11] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  the purpose of this test harness is to test the OGP implementation wherever it lives, using the python libs to interact with said implementations
* [9:11] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  to ensure that the protocol is working
* [9:11] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  and to ensure that oru impelemntation is working
* [9:11] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Tao: does ZCA provide a C/C++-level API as well? So things have speed or timing requirements.
* [9:12] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  ok. But then I guess the lib would also have tests of their own to check maybe their inner functionality
* [9:12] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  yes tao
* [9:12] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Some* things (typo)
* [9:12] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  Morgaine: not that I know of although I am not sure if the central part of it isn#t written in C for performance reasons
* [9:12] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  but you can use C++/C extensions normally
* [9:13] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  so the test harness IMHO does not really need some component registry as I think of it mainly as a collection of tests
* [9:13] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  which should be not too complex
* [9:13] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  I'd like to revisit this tuesday at the AWGroupies meeting, and hope to be able to choose the zca/no zca approach we want to move forward with.
* [9:13] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  if they use the lib and the lib uses ZCA then of course they might adjust how they use the lib in writing things a little different
* [9:13] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  What's the best way to decide as a group with direction to take?
* [9:14] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:  is the test harness for testing both clients and servers?
* [9:14] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:  there's our irc
* [9:14] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  yes tao
* [9:14] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  I think where the components come in is if we want to take our libs we're using to enable tests and make them available as more general "client language bindings" for the OGP spec
* [9:14] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  *rexz
* [9:14] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  as said, I would like to work something out using buildout, eggs and ZCA (the former 2 are already there in some form) which is working
* [9:14] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  and maybe show some examples
* [9:14] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  Enus... we've always said we should work under the basis of "consensus and working code."
* [9:15] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:  how hard is it to switch from zca to python or back once coding has started?
* [9:15] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  as said, I would rather not work without it as I think it makes components more modular
* [9:15] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  It should definitely be both server and client --- remember that some of the tests will involve looking at both sides to see test results.
* [9:15] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:  ZCA os kist a cp,[pmemt regostratopm fra,ewprl. as far as O cam te;;
* [9:15] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:  or something like that
* [9:15] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:  ZCA is just a component registration framework
* [9:15] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  btw, there also is no full ZCA and no ZCA, there are also levels inbetween ;-)
* [9:15] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  so it depends on how many interfaces/hooks you provide
* [9:15] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  wow... Sai... I actually was able to parse that first line there
* [9:16] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  yes tao, i see the advantage of modularity... without it, refactoring is one's only choice to adding components
* [9:16] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:  I thought python had some kind of component use model already
* [9:16] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  usually you can also move a project later to ZCA but it's some work to get it right then and involves a lot of refactoring to make sense. We are going through this with Plone right now
* [9:16] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Infinity: lucky you. My parse triggered the Halting Problem ;-)
* [9:16] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  I'm an old FORTH programmer... so I recover well from noise in the line
* [9:17] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  also tao, I'm hoping we can build in OGP oriented libs and 'legacy' aka libs that work against the current protocol
* [9:17] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  chuckles
* [9:17] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  well, Python has classes, modules and functions
* [9:17] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  in pyogp itself...
* [9:17] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  but getting back to the task at hand.. I think a lot of us don't have ZCA experience...
* [9:17] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  many of us seem to think the idea of modularity / componentization is a good one
* [9:17] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  Enus: I am all for it as long as somebody shows me how to do the UDP dance (but there's an example now) and how to decipher the messages ;-)
* [9:17] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  I think it lacks examples right now to show the benefits
* [9:17] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  it's hard to explain it here right now quickly
* [9:18] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  and Tao tells us if we get the "stock python" wrong, it'll be a refactoring effort to get it right
* [9:18] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  so I will try to come up with something and maybe convert the login stuff to some more componentized version
* [9:18] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  revisit Tuesday morning?
* [9:18] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  Perhaps we should rwite some tests in "stock python" and then componentize them
* [9:18] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  well, there really is not too much difference between ZCA and stock python
* [9:18] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Sounds good
* [9:18] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  Infinity: as said, I am more thinking about the lib
* [9:19] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  not the tests itself
* [9:19] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  lib could use zca, test don't care
* [9:19] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  so that's why I propose to work on the login code which is there right now
* [9:19] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  so I will try to work on that at the weekend
* [9:19] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  oh oh... yup... I like the idea of componentizing the libs
* [9:19] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  so tuesday should be ok
* [9:19] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  yes please. i'll also extend login in 'stock'python to the extent that i can, and use a simplle test ex ample as well
* [9:19] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  but only if it doesn't get in the way of us getting our stuff done in a "reasonable" amount of time
* [9:19] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  e.g. it would also be great to be able to use parts of the libs inside some agent domain without copying code to get rid of dependancies
* [9:20] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  where the definition of "reasonable" is left as an exercise for the reader
* [9:20] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  btw, i am on 'vacation' for the next 3 weeks, but will be owrking to a degree. certainly around for meetnigs when possible, and to move this forward
* [9:20] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  I think it's needs a little bit of getting used to the ZCA way but I at least don't want to miss it anymore
* [9:20] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  and I'm the one who
* [9:20] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  so: test cases...
* [9:20] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  I'm the one who's volunteered to write teh test cases
* [9:20] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  using Enus' framework
* [9:21] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  sometimes people go overboard with it though and add too many layers but this can always be refactored
* [9:21] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  infinity wants to start by 'testing the hell out of login'
* [9:21] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  i do too
* [9:21] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  I guess you are planning on doing unit tests and not doctests?
* [9:22] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  i need to learn about doctests, i have experience with unittests
* [9:22] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:  One other thing we need to talk bout is the idea of multiple agents running in the scame script
* [9:22] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Tao: but non-trivial things so rarely get refactored after original design, even in the cases when everyone knows it's needed.
* [9:22] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  sai, that's all in implementation of the application or test
* [9:22] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  yeah... I'm thinking more of unit tests on up through "behavioral tests"
* [9:22] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  we build a library that enables the definition of an agent and an agent's actions
* [9:22] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:  true, but "testing the hell out of login" is the first usecase for that, I think
* [9:23] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  what is done with that is purely up to the developer
* [9:23] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  unit testing the hell out of login is first priority
* [9:23] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  the performance testing
* [9:23] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  apparently "Behavioral Tests" has overtaken "Test Driven Development" as the catch-phrase of choice
* [9:23] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  which is different thatn uni tests
* [9:24] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  oh.. speaking of performance testing...
* [9:24] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  does anyone here use a formal "Separation of Concerns" model?
* [9:24] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  infinity plans to start sketching out test cases, which i hope to post to wiki for feedback and augmentation...
* [9:24] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  Morgaine: because usually it's a pain. ZCA and good test coverage could help that
* [9:24] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  locklainn will be helping build out the libs and tests as we go
* [9:24] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Tao: hopefully
* [9:24] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  Cross-cutting concerns will be a pain to test, but we might want to think about it a bit up front
* [9:24] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  in Plone nearly everythign was refactored by now ;-)
* [9:24] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:  also, whilethis makes it very Python dependent, the use of eventlet for communications handling will make the scripts much lighter, from what I can understand
* [9:25] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  and it was a pain because it was all one big blob
* [9:25] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  I can also help with doctest examples maybe
* [9:25] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  I would at least like it for the lib because it's then also documentation for the lib
* [9:26] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  and as I am also in #europython right now to discuss the conference, anybody coming eventually? :-)
* [9:26] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  we could make a pyogp sprint there
* [9:26] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Inifnity: separation of concerns is more of a system design issue. System testing is very often cross-cutting, even if only by scripted orchestrating of well-separated unit tests.
* [9:26] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:  I think we nee dto have some kind of tutorial on how to use eventlet and friends
* [9:26] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  so zca/no zca, buildout?, doctest? (i want lib docs as well tao) test cases. i owe more and more docs. we all have our homework....
* [9:27] [[User:Hamilton Linden|Hamilton Linden]]:  / gotta run to next meeting cya
* [9:27] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  irc.freenode.com: #pyogp
* [9:27] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Cya Hamilton
* [9:27] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:  bye hamilton
* [9:27] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  come have a chat
* [9:27] [[User:Tess Linden|Tess Linden]]:  I gotta run too. thanks Enus
* [9:27] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  curious: who else has interest in 1. contributing to the creation of these libs and tess?
* [9:27] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:  If you ever forget the contact points: [http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:AW_Groupies#External_Resources]
* [9:27] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Cya Tess
* [9:27] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:  bye tess
* [9:27] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  cya tess
* [9:28] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:  bye :)
* [9:28] [[User:Bartholomew Kleiber|Bartholomew Kleiber]]:  I have
* [9:28] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  2. using the libs once mature-ish
* [9:28] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:  /raise /raise
* [9:28] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  pyogpbots will be tasty
* [9:28] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  bye tess
* [9:28] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:  i think that everybody that want to mod they viewer will want to use the tests
* [9:29] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Enus: hopefully pretty much everyone can supply tests, even if they're not involved in harness development.
* [9:29] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  hmm.. just noticed that "Tess" is "Tests" without the final 't'. I think that's a good sign
* [9:29] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Haha
* [9:29] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  lol
* [9:29] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  maybe people can already add test descriptions to the wiki
* [9:29] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  and think of what can go wrong
* [9:30] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  An additional objective of the test framework is peeps can use them to report bugs
* [9:30] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  morgaine: good point... i'd like to see the code mature in such a way that we can test the protocols as implemented wherever they are implemented
* [9:30] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  it probably would be good to have such a description for every functionality we define
* [9:30] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  yes tao
* [9:30] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Tao: No reason why the test system can't be wiki-driven :-)
* [9:30] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  so making tests "easy" so as many people can use them as possible is double-plus-good
* [9:30] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  """ desc """ is our friend
* [9:31] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  k all, i've gotta run myself....
* [9:31] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  thanks for chatting
* [9:31] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:  laters
* [9:31] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:  bye enus
* [9:31] [[User:Locklainn Linden|Locklainn Linden]]:  see ya enus
* [9:31] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:  bye ;0
* [9:31] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  i look forward to really getting this rolling in the next week or so
* [9:31] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:  don't forget the irc
* [9:31] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:  :)
* [9:31] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  Cheers E
* [9:31] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Infinity: even tests from "abusers" might help, if it ends up tightening up the system.
* [9:31] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Cya Enus
* [9:31] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  Carp! is it really 930 already?
* [9:31] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  I gotta run as well
* [9:32] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Cya Infinity
* [9:32] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  cheers everyone!
* [9:32] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:  bye infinity
* [9:32] [[User:Bartholomew Kleiber|Bartholomew Kleiber]]:  bye all
* [9:32] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:  bye barth
* [9:32] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:  bye Infinity :)
* [9:32] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  i
* [9:32] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Cya Barth
* [9:32] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  'll post chat log...
* [9:32] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  just so everyone knows... Enus and I will be hoping to present something more substatntial on Tuesda
* [9:32] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Super
* [9:32] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  and I'll likely be hovering in #pyogp
* [9:32] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  and...
* [9:32] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  me, too :)
* [9:33] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  if you see me in a public channel, it means I'm willing to be talked to
* [9:33] [[User:Enus Linden|Enus Linden]]:  XD
* [9:33] [[User:Infinity Linden|Infinity Linden]]:  cheers, all!
* [9:33] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  cheers! :)
* [9:33] [[User:chieni Beck|chieni Beck]]:  bye all
* [9:33] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:  cheer
* [9:33] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:  cheers*
* [9:33] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Cya Chi
* [9:33] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:  bye :)
* [9:33] [[User:Locklainn Linden|Locklainn Linden]]:  see ya
* [9:34] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:  bye locklainn
* [9:34] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:  bye chieni
* [9:34] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Cya Lock
* [9:34] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:  was anyone here for the entire meeting? I crashed about times :-( so no transcript from me
* [9:34] [[User:Dahlia Trimble|Dahlia Trimble]]:  follows the crowd out the door.... bye all
* [9:34] [[User:Morgaine Dinova|Morgaine Dinova]]:  Cya Dahlia
* [9:34] [[User:Tao Takashi|Tao Takashi]]:  I came later. but to sum it up: we look into ZCA, buildout, doc tests and will meet again tuesday with results
* [9:34] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:  was sai. wait a few seconds and u i will get tu the transcript
* [9:35] [[User:Rex Cronon|Rex Cronon]]:  bye dahlia
* [9:35] [[User:Saijanai Kuhn|Saijanai Kuhn]]:  great thanks

Latest revision as of 09:44, 19 June 2008

see June not July

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