User:Enkidu Linden/Office Hours/2010-04-01

List of Attendees

• Aimee Linden
• Alien Faith
• Carmen Buccaneer
• Dahlia Trimble
• Dzonatas SolDzonatas
• Dzonatas Sol
• Eddi Decosta
• Enkidu Linden
• Fisher Linden
• Ghengis Linden
• HTTP based
• Melchizedek Blauvelt
• Morgaine DinovaMorgaine
• Morgaine Dinova
• Saijanai Kuhn
• Wut MoorlordWut
• Wut Moorlord
• Xugu MadisonXugu
• Xugu Madison

Transcript

[11:03]	Xugu Madison:	ENKIDU! Win. Was worried we'd have another cancelled OH
[11:04]	Enkidu Linden:	hi everyone!
[11:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hiya Enki :-)
[11:04]	Enkidu Linden:	sorry, i was detained
[11:04]	Xugu Madison:	...at the border?
[11:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	For possession? :P
[11:04]	Xugu Madison:	hi Ghengis... wow, new Lindens. Gotta catch 'em all?
[11:05]	Ghengis Linden:	hello
[11:05]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hi Fisher, Ghengis :-)
[11:05]	Enkidu Linden:	in a turkish prison!
[11:05]	Melchizedek Blauvelt:	I blame Imaze for detaining him
[11:05]	Enkidu Linden:	haha
[11:05]	Xugu Madison:	That would explain.... well, something
[11:05]	Morgaine DinovaMorgaine	Dinova checks for traces of Imaze's latex on Enkidu
[11:05]	Enkidu Linden:	shall we start?
[11:05]	Xugu Madison:	Yes!
[11:06]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yup!
[11:06]	Xugu Madison:	and we've lost Fisher already....
[11:07]	Dahlia Trimble:	hi :)
[11:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	OMG, Dahlia is a robot!
[11:07]	Dahlia Trimble:	:D
[11:07]	Xugu Madison:	Clearly it's crazy avatar day...
[11:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	A robot using invisiprims, ew
[11:08]	Dahlia Trimble:	ya I dont like invisiprims, but I cant get alpha skins to work with snowglobe yet
[11:08]	Xugu Madison:	Yeah, erm, so,... Enkidu, do start :)
[11:08]	Enkidu Linden:	this week i've been thinking a lot about page performance and browers
[11:08]	Aimee Linden:	Invisiprims are so 2009
[11:08]	Dahlia Trimble:	nice jellyfish
[11:09]	Aimee Linden:	:D
[11:09]	Dahlia Trimble:	I think Melchezedek wants to eat you
[11:09]	Alien Faith:	Enki, page performance?
[11:10]	Xugu Madison:	Are we talking loading time, or lag once the page is loaded? I mean... is this about how terrible IE is with Javascript?
[11:10]	Enkidu Linden:	all of the above!
[11:10]	Saijanai Kuhn:	is it my imaginiation or does viewer 2 provide minimal avatar shadows
[11:10]	Alien Faith:	Sai, I think all viewers do.
[11:10]	Aimee Linden:	you're seeing the old foot shadows I think
[11:11]	Saijanai Kuhn:	never noticed before. COuld be my eyes or could be the upgraded opengl graphics
[11:11]	Xugu Madison:	Enkidu, how's that going? Thinking less on the page, or going to hunt down and kill IE6 users?
[11:11]	Xugu Madison:	I'm good with either...
[11:12]	Morgaine Dinova:	Could we get some general picture of what the LL web services look like, for future context in these OHs? Not now, but perhaps you could make some sort of graphic Enki? To replace Which's graphic on CHTTP and key escrow?
[11:12]	Melchizedek Blauvelt:	Firefox isn't exactly fast lately either...
[11:12]	Enkidu Linden:	i could probably whip something up
[11:13]	Morgaine Dinova:	It would help place the discussions in context a bit, save some handwaving from us :-)
[11:13]	Xugu MadisonXugu	Madison has never had a clue what's going on, and sees no reason to start now :-D
[11:13]	Enkidu Linden:	context is great! i'd love to document that too
[11:13]	Morgaine Dinova:	Xugu: haha
[11:14]	Alien Faith:	Just for today, I'm still confused about performance for who, doing what, on which side of the client/server divide.
[11:14]	Enkidu Linden:	alien: right now i'm talking about client side
[11:14]	Enkidu Linden:	namely, browsers
[11:16]	Enkidu Linden:	sorry, i'm getting over a cold and i keephaving half a thought and then coughing it away
[11:17]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hi Wut :-)
[11:17]	Enkidu Linden:	what do you guys think about your browser's performance?
[11:17]	Wut Moorlord:	hi all, sory to hear that enkidu ;)
[11:17]	Wut Moorlord:	Enkidu: web browser i assume?
[11:17]	Enkidu Linden:	yep
[11:17]	Morgaine Dinova:	You mean built-in browser?
[11:18]	Alien Faith:	My Firefox 3.6 Web browser performance is fine for secondlife related stuff; get killed elsewhere when people go too crazy with their javascript.
[11:18]	Wut Moorlord:	browser itself? not bad. adobe letting complete idiots eat 100% cpu in some crappy ad banner? poor :)
[11:18]	Enkidu Linden:	sure, built-in browser is fair game
[11:18]	Enkidu Linden:	haha yeah, ads suck
[11:18]	Wut Moorlord:	the SL builtin browser i disable because SL generally kills my box, so i'm possibly an unfair sample in that respect.
[11:19]	Xugu Madison:	The inbuilt browser always seems insanely slow....
[11:19]	Dahlia Trimble:	is it the browser that starts up those SLPlugin processes tha go out of control?
[11:19]	Enkidu Linden:	oh, are you using the browser in viewer 2?
[11:19]	Dahlia Trimble:	no, snowglobe
[11:20]	Morgaine Dinova:	I only use the built-in browser for raising the page in the first place, then I click button to launch another Firefox tab. The built-in one is merely a pre-filter to avoid loading FF more, so I can't comment on the built-in browser performance. Most of the time it doesn't display much of the page.
[11:20]	Enkidu Linden:	dahlia, that's a wonderful question. i just noticed those this morning
[11:20]	Dahlia Trimble:	they will eat your computer alive
[11:20]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yeah, SLplugin is buggy.
[11:21]	Dahlia Trimble:	what is it?
[11:21]	Morgaine Dinova:	It's the shell that loads in the actual pluggable code, Dahlia. Proves the process and socket environment
[11:21]	Enkidu Linden:	let me ask one of the viewer folks
[11:21]	Morgaine Dinova:	Provides*
[11:21]	Dahlia Trimble:	pluggable code?
[11:22]	Dahlia Trimble:	like flash?
[11:22]	Aimee Linden:	QtWebkit
[11:22]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yeah, or like Aimee's VNC interface
[11:22]	Dahlia Trimble:	ah ok
[11:22]	Aimee Linden:	Flash runs as a plugin within webkit
[11:22]	Morgaine Dinova:	Ah cool, Aimee's got 150% of the info :-)
[11:22]	Morgaine DinovaMorgaine	Dinova waves at Aimee
[11:22]	Aimee Linden:	:)
[11:23]	Enkidu Linden:	so yeah, viewer 2 uses webkit
[11:23]	Dahlia TrimbleDahlia	Trimble cannot display emotion so stares deadpan at Amiee
[11:23]	Wut Moorlord:	;)
[11:23]	Enkidu Linden:	not just for the browser though, the help system uses it, and some of the stuff in the right side panel
[11:24]	Morgaine DinovaMorgaine	Dinova draws a smile on Dahlia with marker pen
[11:24]	Dahlia Trimble:	lol
[11:24]	Aimee Linden:	search, and the login screen too
[11:25]	Enkidu Linden:	yep!
[11:25]	Wut Moorlord:	random question, is the performance of flash on a prim related to locking gpu memory or such? or horrors, are you rendering to a buffer and flipping it in later? I know you're aware the flash plugin is slow, just wondering if there are any concrete data to suggest why :)
[11:25]	Enkidu Linden:	i think you can expect more and more of the viewer components to become webby
[11:26]	Dahlia TrimbleDahlia	Trimble wants the Unity3D plugin to work
[11:26]	Wut Moorlord:	could be pushing bytes through IPC from SLPlugin into SL and finally into the videocard, i don't know how it works, but i have a bad feeling about it :)
[11:27]	Morgaine Dinova:	Enkidu: that's what T hinted at the Copper Robot interview yesterday, that more and more of the HI would move to web solutions.
[11:27]	Enkidu Linden:	not that i know of, wut, but one of the viewer folks probably knows
[11:27]	Dzonatas Sol:	I'd imagine interfaces that are virtual land related would be 'webby'
[11:27]	Wut Moorlord:	Enkidu, fair enough, randomly thought i'd bring it up on the offchance :)
[11:27]	Aimee Linden:	the plugin renders to shared memory
[11:28]	Enkidu Linden:	so this is cool
[11:28]	Dahlia Trimble:	can it be shared with other external processes?
[11:28]	Wut Moorlord:	yay aimee she who hath memorized the source :)
[11:28]	Morgaine Dinova:	I've never really figured out where Sustaining fits. Aimee, do you consider yourself to be a "viewer folk"?
[11:28]	Aimee Linden:	yeah, I'm pretty much exclusively viewer
[11:29]	Enkidu Linden:	aimee is going to receive love from me later
[11:29]	Aimee Linden:	lol
[11:29]	Morgaine Dinova:	Wow
[11:29]	Dahlia Trimble:	lol
[11:29]	Morgaine Dinova:	Can we watch? :P
[11:29]	Wut Moorlord:	lol
[11:29]	Xugu Madison:	!!!
[11:29]	Enkidu Linden:	NO
[11:29]	Dzonatas SolDzonatas	Sol faints
[11:29]	Dahlia Trimble:	can we help?
[11:29]	Aimee Linden:	Sustaining fits whereever nobody else fits
[11:29]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hahaha
[11:29]	Saijanai Kuhn:	what is this the Republican National Committee?
[11:29]	Enkidu Linden:	that's a great description of sustaining
[11:29]	Aimee Linden:	we're flexible like that
[11:29]	Wut Moorlord:	damnit enkidu *I* was going to marry her you CANNOT HAS
[11:30]	Xugu Madison:	Nah, if we were Republicans we'd be more in denial
[11:30]	Enkidu Linden:	i was in web sustaining until two months ago
[11:30]	Saijanai Kuhn:	but spend lots of money while doing it
[11:30]	Morgaine Dinova:	No politics please. It's bad enough having to discuss lawyers.
[11:31]	Wut Moorlord:	...viewers. where were we? =]
[11:31]	Enkidu Linden:	i probably would have said sustaining is like harvey keitel's character in pulp fiction
[11:31]	Morgaine DinovaMorgaine	Dinova googles
[11:31]	Enkidu Linden:	so yeah
[11:32]	Enkidu Linden:	if many components of the viewer are web, browser performance becomes pretty important to us outside of the usual web sites
[11:34]	Wut Moorlord:	need faster IPC
[11:34]	Morgaine Dinova:	"Web Sustaining" is part of Aimee's "Sustaining", or separate?
[11:34]	Aimee Linden:	separate
[11:34]	Morgaine Dinova:	kk
[11:34]	Dahlia Trimble:	what is "Sustaining"?
[11:34]	Wut Moorlord:	Aimee primarily turns up and makes people clean blood off the walls after an AWG Linden killing
[11:35]	Aimee Linden:	o.O
[11:35]	Enkidu Linden:	sustaining was broken up into groups that focused on different things
[11:35]	Dahlia Trimble:	ok, what was "Sustaining"?
[11:35]	Morgaine Dinova:	Bah, Groupies are pussy cats.We're just misunderstood. :-) [I'm sure that's mutua :-)]
[11:35]	Morgaine Dinova:	mutual*
[11:36]	Xugu Madison:	Morgaine, I would point out there's a KATANA in your head...
[11:36]	Wut Moorlord:	it slices and dices Xugu
[11:36]	Morgaine Dinova:	Haha
[11:36]	Carmen Buccaneer:	hi
[11:36]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well for your slicing and dicing enjoyment -- http://www.blip.tv/file/3407015
[11:36]	Xugu Madison:	Hi Carmen!
[11:36]	Aimee Linden:	we generally fix the stuff that doesn't fall into someone elses job Dahlia
[11:37]	Enkidu Linden:	broadly speaking sustaining is the group that worries about 'sustaining' existing products and is not focused on new product development
[11:37]	Dahlia TrimbleDahlia	Trimble places bamboo into blookitty's input tray and toggles her tail...
[11:37]	Aimee Linden:	google defines it as "Maintenance" but it covers a lot more than that
[11:37]	Morgaine DinovaMorgaine	Dinova fidgets
[11:37]	Enkidu Linden:	yeah
[11:38]	Morgaine Dinova:	So, back to web performance
[11:38]	Enkidu Linden:	in web sustaining i spent a good chunk of time handling failures
[11:38]	Wut Moorlord:	SAS engineering corp?
[11:38]	Enkidu Linden:	sure
[11:38]	Wut Moorlord:	:)
[11:38]	Enkidu Linden:	web performance!
[11:38]	Aimee Linden:	each of us generally has other individual specialities that we deal with too
[11:38]	Morgaine Dinova:	Enkidu: there are so many aspects tgo web performance, it needs to be dismantled into parts first
[11:39]	Aimee Linden:	like Tofu handles Linux specific stuff, I'm Voice
[11:39]	Enkidu Linden:	yes it does
[11:39]	Enkidu Linden:	let's not talk about javascript
[11:39]	Morgaine DinovaMorgaine	Dinova nods
[11:39]	Wut Moorlord:	Enkidu: ;)
[11:39]	Morgaine Dinova:	JS is a done deal nowadays anyway, really fast
[11:39]	Wut Moorlord:	javascript performance i found to be pretty good in modern engines
[11:39]	Dzonatas Sol:	I understand sustained argiculture, so I'd imagine organic programs have the same feel
[11:40]	Dahlia Trimble:	speaking of voice, is there a way to fix in when someone who's speaking keeps cutting out? it's like their microphone keeps shutting off or something
[11:40]	Dahlia Trimble:	like the vox is broken
[11:40]	Wut Moorlord:	flash- flash kills everything and always will until we replace adobe's developers with people who know what they're doing
[11:40]	Enkidu Linden:	yeah, me too. i recently did an experiment testing the efficacy of duff's device in modern browsers and found it to be pointless
[11:41]	Xugu Madison:	Burn Flash, use SVG
[11:41]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yep, let's not talk about Flash, that's a total disaster
[11:41]	Aimee Linden:	hmm, not easily that usually means they have a dodgy mic
[11:41]	Aimee Linden:	or iffy drivers
[11:41]	Wut Moorlord:	Enkidu: yeah, there are some really sophisticated optimizers
[11:41]	Dahlia Trimble:	the good adobe devs work on photoshop
[11:41]	Dzonatas Sol:	sounds like adobe isn't gonna expand flash anymore
[11:41]	Enkidu Linden:	which is cool for devs because it means they don't need to worry as much about code-level optimizations
[11:42]	Aimee Linden:	may just be that they have their mic volume too low
[11:42]	Wut Moorlord:	Dahlia: PS C3 takes up to 3 minutes to pop up a file dialog on my fast box so i'm not 100% sure i agree ;)
[11:42]	Enkidu Linden:	i.e. if you think you need some sort of trickery nowadays, you probably are wrong
[11:42]	Wut Moorlord:	Dahlia: they have some good image processing phd's though last i heard
[11:42]	Dahlia Trimble:	so I've heard also
[11:43]	Morgaine Dinova:	SVG has just been adopted in HTML5 or something like that anyway. Hopefully the days of Flash are numbered. Pity that some Lindens come from Adobe though, there could be resistance to change there, high level resistance.
[11:43]	Enkidu Linden:	anyway, it's much more effective to combine, minify, and gzip
[11:44]	Enkidu Linden:	svg looks amazing
[11:44]	Dzonatas Sol:	active svg is awesome for 2D panel UIs
[11:44]	Enkidu Linden:	i keep seeing this proof of concepts with it that are pretty incredible
[11:44]	Enkidu Linden:	er, these
[11:44]	Dzonatas Sol:	just not everybody implements 'relative svg' correctly
[11:44]	Enkidu Linden:	and canvas too
[11:45]	Wut Moorlord:	so. i wonder if raster output from the web client is being blasted at the video card in silly cache incoherant chunks instead of as nice little tiled blocks, because i totally sped up an opengl UI by doing that several orders of magnitude
[11:45]	Xugu Madison:	A lot of SVG implementations are.... interesting
[11:46]	Dahlia Trimble:	ya but that may be configuration dependent Wut
[11:46]	Morgaine Dinova:	Is minify a bidirectional process?
[11:46]	Wut Moorlord:	it's paradoxical, but i found it was faster on some cards, specifically Nvidia7xxx series to scoop a block out of a buffer and ravel it back into say a 256x256 block and send that as an update
[11:46]	Enkidu Linden:	not really, morgaine
[11:46]	Wut Moorlord:	Dahlia: this was in 2007, it may even have been fixed with driver patches now
[11:47]	Wut Moorlord:	but gpu hardware is funky
[11:47]	Wut Moorlord:	as you no doubt have found out ;)
[11:47]	Morgaine Dinova:	Enkidu: in that case, minifying JS amounts to obfuscation, and becomes a vector for malicious exploits.
[11:48]	Eddi Decosta:	heya ㋡
[11:48]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hi Eddi
[11:48]	Enkidu Linden:	mmm, let me rephrase a bit
[11:48]	Wut Moorlord:	Morgaine: only if you actually aren't aware that trying to classify malicious code that may obfuscate itself is known to be equivalent to the halting problem
[11:48]	Eddi Decosta:	miew for Morgaine ㋡
[11:48]	Dzonatas Sol:	the problem with active svg is that it isn't defined to be tied to javascript, but that is all there is to make it active so far
[11:48]	Enkidu Linden:	if it's a question of being handed minified javascript from a 3rd party and wanting to read it, you can plug it inot a js beautifier
[11:48]	Eddi Decosta:	hey Fisher! ㋡
[11:49]	Xugu Madison:	Dzonatas, I'm unclear why that's a problem?
[11:49]	Morgaine Dinova:	Enkidu: aha, it sounds bidirectional then. The real symbols are still available?
[11:49]	Wut Moorlord:	Enkidu: aye
[11:49]	Dzonatas Sol:	it means every activate svg would have to implement javascript
[11:49]	Dzonatas Sol:	no freedom of choice in language binds
[11:50]	Xugu Madison:	Ah,,, stuck with JS if you want widespread acceptance? Yeah, can see that...
[11:50]	Wut Moorlord:	Morg: the real symbols are gone, but basically it's trivial to reverse. all the useful methods haven't been renamed
[11:50]	Morgaine Dinova:	Wut: good to hear, thanks
[11:50]	Fisher Linden:	Hey Eddi
[11:50]	Enkidu Linden:	yes
[11:50]	Wut Moorlord:	it requires you to think. but y'know. we're all big enough and ugly enough to do it if we want
[11:51]	Xugu Madison:	Enkidu, looked at gzipping content when streaming it, on the fly?
[11:51]	Enkidu Linden:	what i was getting at is that there's no useful minification inverse for development purposes
[11:52]	Enkidu Linden:	there are processes for obfuscating javascript but they tend to harm performance so we don't bother with them
[11:52]	Morgaine Dinova:	Enkidu: aha, so you're saying that it's like "throw over the wall open source", ie. not actually useful for FOSS developers.
[11:53]	Enkidu Linden:	xugu, yes, i love to watch gzipped content stream
[11:53]	Wut Moorlord:	Morgaine: check out FOSS things like prototype etc, they give an obfuscated 'binary', and the source
[11:53]	Enkidu Linden:	well, personally, i find obfuscating javascript kind of pointless
[11:54]	Morgaine Dinova:	Wut: if you go too far down that path, you end up with the "binary + source" model
[11:54]	Enkidu Linden:	obfuscation is a false security measure
[11:54]	Dzonatas Sol:	if the script is of a size that would need to be gzipped, then maybe allow an option for an ecma bytestream, then no need to minify/obfuscate
[11:54]	Wut Moorlord:	Enkidu: yeah. in the bad old days it was about bandwidth preservation, it's really pointless to hope your code becomes invisible
[11:54]	Xugu Madison:	The point with gzipping being that you can turn a sizable text script into something much smaller, and then easily turn it back again later
[11:55]	Wut Moorlord:	Dzonata there's no ECMA-262 bytecode language, it's only specified as a source language and pretend operational semantics that look posh but aren't complete ;)
[11:56]	Enkidu Linden:	right, wut
[11:57]	Morgaine Dinova:	So, we've split the performance problem down into some parts, and declared some of them off-topic, and some like minifying as possible candidates but not a complete solution. What other parts are in the performance picture?
[11:57]	Dzonatas Sol:	so c# is one-up
[11:57]	Xugu Madison:	Enkidu, on an unrelated note before the hour finishes.... what the blazes is the doomsday device thing in the background?
[11:57]	Wut Moorlord:	Dzonatas, yeah, CLR is much better in that respect
[11:57]	Enkidu Linden:	oh, this is a broad, broad topic
[11:57]	Wut Moorlord:	Enkidu: question- where is for e.g. javascript performance going?
[11:57]	Enkidu Linden:	we're all gonna die!
[11:58]	Enkidu Linden:	things that effect web performance:
[11:58]	Wut Moorlord:	try doing a stupid huge bubble sort, then try again but at each iteration change the background colour
[11:58]	Dahlia Trimble:	not me, I'm a robot, I'm immortal as long as I get good maintainence
[11:58]	Morgaine Dinova:	Enkidu: one part of the "performance" puzzle that I'd like to make sure are on the agenda (because UI is being webbified) is latency.
[11:58]	Wut Moorlord:	i suspect dynamic updates to the DOM that cause dirty regions to be flushed kills it. but i'm making this up as i go along. :)
[11:59]	Dzonatas Sol:	mono can run eclipse with a java compiler, so maybe that is something to consider
[12:00]	Wut Moorlord:	Dzonatas: if i understand correctly though, the issue is more towards third party web integration, such as sticking google maps on a prim or something though
[12:00]	Enkidu Linden:	number of requests, size of requests, dependencies between requests, browser caching via http headers, reverse proxy caching, etags, bad html, bad javascript, bad css, whether you're using a cdn, and more!
[12:00]	Wut Moorlord:	Enkidu: ouch xD
[12:00]	Enkidu Linden:	xhr usage, dns issues
[12:01]	Morgaine Dinova:	Enkidu: add RTT and marshalling + serialization latency
[12:01]	Xugu Madison:	I'm fairly certain phase of the moon is also involved
[12:01]	Enkidu Linden:	network latency yay!
[12:01]	Dahlia Trimble:	eeeks... time for carbon based life issues. Bye all :)
[12:01]	Wut Moorlord:	so your measuring the html processor as going bonkers. goodie. =]
[12:01]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cyu Dahlia :-)
[12:01]	Wut Moorlord:	see you later robot
[12:01]	Xugu Madison:	Seeya Dahlia!
[12:02]	Enkidu Linden:	network latency is interesting because it's not something a web dev can control, but a lot of optimizations involve shrinking content to mitigate the impact of latency
[12:03]	Enkidu Linden:	minification being a big way to do that
[12:03]	Wut Moorlord:	Enkidu, also i find SL's insane udp storm to really murder my network at times generally :/
[12:03]	Enkidu Linden:	shock and awe!
[12:04]	Wut MoorlordWut	Moorlord wears the ministery of the bleedin' obvious tag with pride.
[12:04]	Xugu Madison:	Wut, Babbage was talking about HTTP textures finally going live in Viewer 2.1, which hopefully will shift most of the UDP nonsense
[12:04]	Enkidu Linden:	i know there's been a lot of talk about using or not using udp
[12:04]	Wut Moorlord:	Xugu: that would be Much Win.
[12:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	Enkidu: given that someof your users are in Australia, network latency is something that you need to consider if you are webbifying the UI, unless all your UI web resources are actually supplied in the viewer package
[12:04]	Enkidu Linden:	exactly!
[12:05]	Xugu Madison:	Morgaine; even in the UK we see higher latency...
[12:05]	Wut Moorlord:	Enkidu, use udp for high latency, tcp for high throughput.... /me waves the badge again
[12:05]	Wut Moorlord:	Xugu: yeah :/
[12:05]	Wut Moorlord:	low latency
[12:05]	Enkidu Linden:	in terms of what web devs can do, it's mostly mitigation via controlling what gets sent
[12:06]	Wut Moorlord:	sorry. crap i didn't sleep yet. xD
[12:06]	Xugu Madison:	To be honest, given the history if Lindens and UDP so far, I'd rather see everything on TCP for now...
[12:06]	Eddi Decosta:	Wut, you need more coffee? ㋡
[12:06]	Wut Moorlord:	Eddi, come to think of it, i do! brb :D
[12:06]	Enkidu Linden:	but, responsiveness in the face of latency is a key goal of web performance optimization
[12:06]	Xugu Madison:	I need to get back to scripting... thanks for hosting Enkidu!
[12:07]	Enkidu Linden:	my pleasure!
[12:07]	Dzonatas Sol:	xugu, snow-375 may interest you, if you like to rest/http the ui
[12:07]	HTTP based	API: "thinking outside the box" Human Interface Devices (i.e. Chat/IM/Contacts/Etc windows in separate-processes/plugins/ubiquitous-computing/accessibility)
[12:07]	Enkidu Linden:	we're over time now but we can continue this topic next week if you guys are interested
[12:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	Philip brought his background from Real Networks with him, it was inevitable that SL would end up using UDP, despite the bad fit. But that'schanging.
[12:07]	Xugu MadisonXugu	Madison nodnods
[12:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	Great convresation, Enki!
[12:08]	Dzonatas Sol:	thanks for the OH
[12:08]	Enkidu Linden:	anytime! (particularly on thursday from 11am to 12pm)
[12:08]	Enkidu Linden:	:)
[12:08]	Morgaine Dinova:	:-)
[12:08]	Enkidu Linden:	thanks for coming everyone!
[12:08]	Morgaine Dinova:	Have a good day, all of you :-)
[12:08]	Aimee Linden:	well, to be fair they way they originally envisages SL working, UDP was a good fit, we've learnt and evolved a lot since then
[12:08]	Wut Moorlord:	ohnoez, and i just came back, thanks enkidu :)
[12:08]	Aimee Linden:	hindsight is generally 20/20
[12:09]	Eddi Decosta:	sorry my late Enkidu ㋡
[12:09]	Enkidu Linden:	no problem. there's always next week
[12:09]	Wut Moorlord:	Aimee mines less, i'm forgetful
[12:09]	Enkidu Linden:	see you all then
[12:09]	Aimee Linden:	lol
[12:09]	Eddi Decosta:	Enkidu, can you change the wikis page ref for the GG hud?
[12:09]	Morgaine Dinova:	Aimee: no, it was never a good fit, the basic requirement for reliable transport makes it an extremely poor fit.
[12:10]	Ghengis Linden:	see you next week
[12:10]	Wut Moorlord:	Morgaine: but character movement and physical updates don't need to be reliable, assets dop
[12:10]	Morgaine Dinova:	TC :-)
[12:10]	Aimee Linden:	that wasn't the requirement at the time though
[12:10]	Wut Moorlord:	see ya ghengis :)
[12:11]	Aimee Linden:	they were originally looking at sending water ripples every time you interacted with the water and things like that
[12:11]	Dzonatas Sol:	seen that
[12:11]	Wut Moorlord:	Aimee: that would be extremely cool, but my gut says use udp there
[12:11]	Aimee Linden:	exactly
[12:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	Wut: wrong. Even movement needs to be reliable, it's not optional. The only parts of movement that are optional are INTERSTICIAL UPDATES, additional fine-granularity increments fitting in idle time between mandatory positional updates.
[12:12]	Fisher Linden:	Upper layer applications can make udp reliable in a smarter way than tcp
[12:12]	Wut Moorlord:	Morgaine: that's lovely in theory but i don't like original research in commercial products, the games programmers kick all your butts, so see what they're doing.
[12:12]	Enkidu Linden:	eddie, yeah, i'll try to sort that out
[12:12]	Enkidu Linden:	by all!
[12:12]	Wut Moorlord:	bye enkidu :)
[12:13]	Fisher Linden:	Bye
[12:13]	Aimee Linden:	hell, when they started the software was just a sideline to demo the hardware they were concentrating on :D
[12:13]	Wut Moorlord:	:)

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