User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2008 12 23

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[11:01]	Asriazh Frye:	hello ^^
[11:01]	Simon Linden:	Hi Asriazh
[11:02]	Asriazh Frye:	i thought this was a mall here but i guess i took a wrong turn somewhere ^^;
[11:02]	Asriazh Frye:	no,i im just kiddig ^^;
[11:02]	Asriazh Frye:	this is where the office hour will be held, right?
[11:03]	Rex Cronon:	hello everybody
[11:03]	Simon Linden:	Yes, we're just getting started. Hi foks
[11:03]	Simon Linden:	err, folks, that is
[11:03]	Vry Offcourse:	Aloah
[11:03]	Arawn Spitteler:	Today, we get to conspire against Andrew.
[11:03]	Asriazh Frye:	hi ^^
[11:03]	Kitto Flora:	Hello everyone
[11:03]	Sooden Ren:	merry rezmass
[11:03]	Rex Cronon:	hiii...
[11:03]	Simon Linden:	Yes, we can re-design some features
[11:03]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew no here?
[11:04]	Arawn Spitteler:	Not until next Tuesday, I think.
[11:04]	Arawn Spitteler:	Next Tuesday, or Thursday of next year?
[11:04]	Simon Linden:	Andrew's on vacation this week. He should be back for next week
[11:04]	Simon Linden:	... on Tuesday
[11:04]	Kitto Flora:	OK
[11:04]	Kitto Flora:	We can blame him for everything then :)
[11:05]	Simon Linden:	There won't be office hours this week on Thursday, and I assume next week on the 1st as well
[11:05]	Arawn Spitteler:	Restore Push to Griefer Friendly, and limit SLPP to 64k
[11:06]	Simon Linden:	Let's see ... I don't have any new annoucements. The 1.25 update is going to happen in January, after the holidays
[11:06]	Rex Cronon:	wise choice:)
[11:06]	Kitto Flora:	Are there any specs. posted about 'Homestead' sims?
[11:06]	Simon Linden:	We did make some progress late last week on some of the outstanding issues, so it's looking better, but we decided not to do anything will all the various vacations and such
[11:07]	Simon Linden:	I haven't seen them specifically, no
[11:07]	Kitto Flora:	Weird
[11:07]	Kitto Flora:	Much announced and blogged, and scheduled for forced deployment. But there's no data on what they are.
[11:08]	Simon Linden:	I believe there will be an update to 1.24 to support homesteads and the new flavor of openspaces soon
[11:08]	Simon Linden:	Did Jack ever discuss or post about the prim limits?
[11:08]	Sooden Ren:	i love the changes personaly
[11:08]	Sooden Ren:	brough more people my way
[11:08]	Sooden Ren:	brought*
[11:08]	Simon Linden:	I don't understand what you mean ... are you renting land?
[11:09]	Kitto Flora:	Humm - notes I saw said 1.24.10(rolling out now) just supports Homesteads. Hints at not having new limits yet
[11:09]	Sooden Ren:	just gavie open space rentals, quater of a full sim :)
[11:10]	Simon Linden:	Hopefully there will be less confusion about the usage ... I know the biggest complaint was when people rented some land, but didn't do their research and were getting openspaces when they expected a regular region
[11:10]	Kitto Flora:	Open Space sims have turned into a pain - they run LSL so poorly that I have to tell many train owners they cant run a train well without removing most other scripted content
[11:10]	Arawn Spitteler:	Would 24.1 have to be anywhere, but on the Homestead Sims?
[11:11]	Simon Linden:	I'm pretty sure they are going to do a full grid update, but the changes added to 1.24 are limited to the homestead / openspace support
[11:11]	Sindy Tsure:	heya folks
[11:11]	Asriazh Frye:	hi ^^
[11:11]	Simon Linden:	This was supposed to go into 1.25, but since that was delayed due to other problems we had to add it to 1.24
[11:12]	Simon Linden:	Hi Sindy
[11:12]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hell-llo Sind-dee.
[11:12]	Kitto Flora:	But what is a Homestead sim?
[11:12]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[11:12]	Arawn Spitteler:	I think a Homestead is what uysed to e called Open Space, but not as many to a Simulator.
[11:13]	Arawn Spitteler:	We were just discusing the Twelve Steps of Abusive Ablution.
[11:13]	Sindy Tsure:	last i heard, it was still 4/cpu for homesteads
[11:13]	Vry Offcourse:	hahaha
[11:13]	Simon Linden:	Yes, everything is going to be 4/cpu for now
[11:13]	Sindy Tsure:	er.. everything??
[11:13]	Kitto Flora:	Form Awawn I ma hearing terminology confusion
[11:14]	Simon Linden:	Homesteads and Openspace, that is
[11:14]	Sooden Ren:	yeah, best not be everyhing
[11:14]	Kitto Flora:	If Homestead is 4/cpu it will be as bad as Open Space
[11:14]	Simon Linden:	Regular regions aren't changing
[11:14]	Sooden Ren:	we just straded on 4 opens spaces for a full
[11:14]	Sooden Ren:	good
[11:14]	Kitto Flora:	Unless LSL gets fixed
[11:14]	Sooden Ren:	traded*
[11:14]	Simon Linden:	We need to do some more work to get something set to 2 or 3 (not 1 or 4)
[11:15]	Kitto Flora:	Yeah - maybe 2/cpu will be resonable
[11:15]	Simon Linden:	It's just some easy logic checks. There's a bit of code here and there where it checks a number, and if not 1 then assumes 4, stuff like that
[11:15]	Vry Offcourse:	can not you just use LARG memory, as in quick accses]
[11:15]	Kitto Flora:	Are there any Homestead sims on a Beta grrid?
[11:15]	Arawn Spitteler:	I think testing was planned, for a virtual disk, but don't know the progress.
[11:15]	Simon Linden:	I'm not sure what's gone onto the beta grid ... that would make sense to do, but I haven't paid attention to what's going on there
[11:16]	Kitto Flora:	If Homesteads turn out to be nothing but a price hike and name change (no performance improvement) then even more caga will hit the fan.
[11:16]	Sooden Ren:	the change did hurt people that got small islands just to use as a sandbox
[11:17]	Sooden Ren:	then nees to ass a singles userer sandbox island things
[11:17]	Sooden Ren:	they need to add*
[11:17]	Simon Linden:	Yeah, I'm not the best person to get into a discussion about the land product line. It will just increase my bill for therapy and anger management :)
[11:17]	Sindy Tsure:	heh
[11:17]	Kitto Flora:	Oh well..
[11:18]	Kitto Flora:	My vote on Linden Land has long been made.
[11:18]	Simon Linden:	Agreed ... on the 'wild idea' side of thing, I'm going to suggest Time Shares - have your region appear 12 hours of the day, or something like that
[11:18]	Kitto Flora:	That may go well
[11:18]	Kitto Flora:	Many sims are used - maybe 1 or 2 hours a day
[11:19]	Kitto Flora:	Sad really - people pay for and create great sims, and they sit empty for hours
[11:19]	Arawn Spitteler:	I forget the name of thatvillage, but don't forget to charbge for thechange overs.
[11:19]	Sindy Tsure:	how expensive is it to save off the simstate? does that work out to an overall win if you've got 1000 regions switching on & off all the time?
[11:19]	Sindy Tsure:	*save/restore
[11:19]	Rex Cronon:	people need intereactive sims:)
[11:20]	Simon Linden:	Yes ... it seems we should use the empty space better
[11:20]	Redrose Alter:	Hi Arawn
[11:20]	Sindy Tsure:	heya red
[11:20]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hell-llo Red-Rose
[11:20]	Simon Linden:	I did some prototype work on dropping the frame rate of empty sims so they would share the CPU better with the other regions on the same machine
[11:20]	Vry Offcourse:	*save/restore, ffs, memory could help that jam
[11:20]	Redrose Alter:	Hell-llo Arawn
[11:21]	Simon Linden:	It helps, but makes the side-effects of events in one region affecting others more
[11:21]	Sooden Ren:	then you could go as for a cells, area that sut down when empty
[11:21]	Sooden Ren:	instead of normal land, area, like you sell in sl mainland, but as separate spaces
[11:22]	Sooden Ren:	then you could realy save CPU
[11:22]	Simon Linden:	Right - it just seems like we have this huge bank of servers, and the power isn't focused enough on where people are
[11:22]	Simon Linden:	Anyway, there are lots of ideas, and hopefully we can get some of them out and make SL better
[11:22]	Vry Offcourse:	haha
[11:22]	Sindy Tsure:	oops
[11:23]	Redrose Alter:	Happy Holidays & Merry Christmas to all assembled here....Arawn I'll catch you later :) bfn
[11:23]	Simon Linden:	Does anyone have questions or simulator stuff to bring up?
[11:23]	Arawn Spitteler:	How long would it take, to start up a sim, when someone tries to teleport in?
[11:23]	Asriazh Frye:	merry christmas ^^
[11:23]	Simon Linden:	Merry Xmas
[11:23]	Sindy Tsure drops http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/svc-22 into the transcript, just to torture andrew when he wanders thru it
[Edit]	Andrew Linden:	Aaaaaarrgh!
[11:23]	Arawn Spitteler:	What language does Sooden have to learn, to take Andrew's job?
[11:23]	Rex Cronon:	same 2 u:)
[11:23]	Kitto Flora:	Simon, do you have any interest in that Group owne/return issue?
[11:23]	Simon Linden:	The sim startup takes a while, it can be 30 seconds or more
[11:24]	Simon Linden:	Kitto - yes, that sounds like a good bug.
[11:24]	Arawn Spitteler:	So, Sim Idleness is something the Owner would have to contract for.
[11:24]	Simon Linden:	yeah - I
[11:24]	Sooden Ren:	afk
[11:24]	Simon Linden:	I'm not sure how hard it would be to 'suspend' the sim and how fast we could bring it back
[11:25]	Simon Linden:	We'd want to be able to have it ready, but using as little CPU and memory as possible
[11:25]	Arawn Spitteler:	What proportion of sims have anyone on them?
[11:26]	Sindy Tsure:	if it's in the range of a couple minutes, that's not too bad.. i was wondering more about the effect on the rest of the grid - moving simstates around a lot more
[11:26]	Simon Linden:	I don't know exact numbers but it's less than 50%
[11:26]	Kitto Flora:	Brigadoon
[11:26]	Arawn Spitteler:	I understand a big Lag, is the communication between a sim and the Assets, so one sim can lag another.
[11:26]	Arawn Spitteler:	That's the one.
[11:26]	Simon Linden:	Moving a region around on the grid is costly
[11:27]	Arawn Spitteler:	Brigadoon Scheduling, so you don't have to leave your sim open to Witches, when you aren't using it.
[11:27]	Kitto Flora:	Half-priced sims, but they only run 8 hours/day?
[11:28]	Simon Linden:	Right - a nice side effect of that might be that we're doing more restarts. These sims could then run some of our newer code, and get some more real-world testing
[11:28]	Sindy Tsure:	...but if it's expensive to move the simstate around, even that may not be worth it, if there are thousands of sim starting/stopping/moving all the time
[11:28]	Simon Linden:	Right now one of the barriers to testing on the main grid is nobody likes the restarts
[11:28]	Sooden Ren:	bacl, probaly missed a lot, so will try and work out what i missed
[11:29]	Sindy Tsure:	i like them more than the old scheme of shutting down the whole grid for a few hours, simon!!
[11:29]	Rex Cronon:	i think that having a sim that works for only 8 hours a day is a LOUSY :(
[11:29]	Kitto Flora:	Heh - I live in a sim where the owner does restarts on a whim... So I go someplace else for 5 mins
[11:29]	Simon Linden:	Yes, we don't want to shut down or force restarts. It's no fun for anyone on the grid
[11:29]	Rex Cronon:	LOUSY idea*
[11:29]	Kitto Flora:	(Fortunatley the owner is mostly away)
[11:29]	Vry Offcourse:	I used to always restart to sake off the other 3 sims on the server
[11:30]	Rex Cronon:	unless u only rent them for those 8 hours
[11:30]	Vry Offcourse:	that really pissed me of, way I sold my sim
[11:30]	Sooden Ren:	oooh thats an idea
[11:30]	Sooden Ren:	like even renal sims
[11:30]	Sooden Ren:	reant for a day
[11:30]	Sooden Ren:	rent*
[11:30]	Arawn Spitteler:	Wouldn't use a Brigadoon for a shop, but more for partying.
[11:30]	Kitto Flora:	*Half-priced sims*, but they only run 8 hours/day - its the cheapness thats the pulling factor.
[11:31]	Arawn Spitteler:	Quarter Price, one day a week.
[11:31]	Sooden Ren:	evnt rental
[11:31]	Kitto Flora:	Many sims are housing and scenery. No stores
[11:31]	Simon Linden:	Right - when thinking of our product line, I _really_ feel that we need a lower priced option that gets people some of their own land to play with
[11:31]	Sooden Ren:	people make thing in the sandobx all the time
[11:31]	Sooden Ren:	and try to have events there
[11:31]	Sooden Ren:	now if they could rent a fim for a day
[11:31]	Sooden Ren:	spawn therir build
[11:32]	Sooden Ren:	i think that would sell
[11:32]	Kitto Flora:	So - its a restart - but from a different save stae. How much disk space is a sim save?
[11:32]	Rex Cronon:	yes . could it be possible to rent a whole sim for a day, or maybe just a few hours?
[11:32]	Sindy Tsure thinks opensim is probably the way things will go for person sandboxes, especially if somebody makes a good import/export tool
[11:32]	Sindy Tsure:	*personal
[11:32]	Simon Linden:	On the higher end, I wonder if people would be interested in getting more dedicated CPU for events ... like your region is the only one on a box for some duration
[11:32]	Sindy Tsure:	events are a different story..
[11:33]	Arawn Spitteler:	Whole Box, rather han a Quad?
[11:33]	Sindy Tsure:	have you measured (or just know) what the bottleneck is on sims with tons of people? is it mostly cpu-bound?
[11:34]	Kitto Flora:	If you have a regular sim - surly its already one sim/ cpu (core) ?
[11:34]	Sindy Tsure:	hi akuma
[11:34]	Akumu Akula:	morning All
[11:34]	Sooden Ren:	you have your x-mass market event as a bench mark
[11:34]	Akumu Akula:	AkumU! :p
[11:34]	Sooden Ren:	your 60 day rentals
[11:34]	Sindy Tsure:	*...u
[11:34]	Sooden Ren:	if that goes well
[11:34]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hell-llo, Akuma
[11:34]	Simon Linden:	I dunno, haven't thought out the details. But if someone was hosting a concert or some important event, you might want to have dedicated space and not worry about another busy region getting assigned to the same box
[11:34]	Sooden Ren:	then, work looking into somthing a bit more comercial
[11:34]	Akumu Akula:	Awarn ¬_¬
[11:35]	Kitto Flora:	Simon, are you refering to Open Space sims?
[11:35]	Simon Linden:	No, regular ones ... but I could see it even applied to Open Space. ...
[11:36]	Simon Linden:	Let's say you build something interesting on your OS or homestead, then want to show it to the world and run in an upgraded server
[11:36]	Simon Linden:	It all comes down to offering more flexibilty in the resources you're getting from SL
[11:36]	Sooden Ren:	i have an os, with sothing i build
[11:36]	Sooden Ren:	that i wanted to show to the world
[11:37]	Sooden Ren:	so had to get a new full sim
[11:37]	Sindy Tsure is all for a richer product line, though i fear the pricing..
[11:37]	Sooden Ren:	cus i panniced about the changes
[11:37]	Simon Linden:	Right, and the conversion is costly. I think there's a 1-time charge for the switch
[11:37]	Sindy Tsure:	US$100 or so, i think
[11:38]	Sooden Ren:	thin its was 250 US to covert 4 OS in full
[11:38]	Kitto Flora:	I dont know what high Av count in an Open Space sim does to its LAG. It surely cripples LSL.
[11:38]	Sooden Ren:	and that was a month ago
[11:38]	Simon Linden:	I think it would be a nice option if you could more to a regular level for a week or month or something. Just log into the web site, set your schedule, get billed accordingly
[11:38]	Sindy Tsure:	hi saijanai
[11:38]	Sooden Ren:	no its was 50 US for 4 os into Full, sorry
[11:39]	Sindy Tsure would vote for that, simon
[11:39]	Simon Linden:	Anyway, these are pie-in-the-sky ideas. I'm hoping to have some discussions with our product folks and get them to think big along lines like this rather than tweaking prices and cpu ratios
[11:39]	Kitto Flora:	Well OS sims are history - as of 5Jan? And we dont know what the performance of Homesteads is.
[11:39]	Vry Offcourse:	YEAH
[11:40]	Sindy Tsure:	related, any thoughts on http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/svc-2835
[11:40]	Sooden Ren:	i have a question
[11:40]	Sindy Tsure:	*http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/svc-835
[11:40]	Sooden Ren:	why do my prims move by them selves
[11:40]	Sindy Tsure:	ack! http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/svc-835
[11:40]	Sooden Ren:	they move out of alligment but 0.01
[11:40]	Sooden Ren:	or change rottation by 0.5 degree
[11:40]	Vry Offcourse:	all tbhings must move
[11:40]	Sooden Ren:	and i use the coppy tool in viewer
[11:41]	Sooden Ren:	just selecteting them to edit can dis-allign them (spelling)
[11:41]	Saijanai Kuhn:	wanted to plug this one: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-2276
[11:41]	Sooden Ren:	is that Sl or My graphics card
[11:41]	Sindy Tsure:	SL
[11:41]	Simon Linden:	Hmm, I'm not familiar with the details, but increasing group limits has been discussed a lot. We should work on it becasue it keeps coming up
[11:42]	Saijanai Kuhn:	related to IM in general I'm sure
[11:42]	Sindy Tsure:	no.. sorry - typo.. http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/svc-835
[11:42]	Sindy Tsure:	basically asks for 'top scripts on parcel' for mainland dwellers.. allowing us to do a bit more land management
[11:42]	Simon Linden:	Sooden - that is probably due to some quanization we have when sending information over the network
[11:43]	Sooden Ren:	will it be improved?
[11:43]	Sooden Ren:	drives me mad :p
[11:43]	Simon Linden:	The postion or rotation data is packed into fewer bits, but that limits the resolution
[11:43]	Sindy Tsure:	i think that's an old, old, old bug, sooden
[11:43]	Kitto Flora:	Well - yes - the group limits are now resulting in even more system load - as people are using off-site group systems, and objects that IM to pseudo-groups.
[11:43]	Simon Linden:	Yeah, I can imagine it being frustrating
[11:43]	Sindy Tsure didn't mean the group limit bug.. that was a typo
[11:44]	Saijanai Kuhn:	we're hoping to prototype group IM in the OGP Agent Domain soon. wil allow people to exoeriment with alternative goup IM protocols and setups
[11:44]	Simon Linden:	I think some of the people that did mono (Babbage and crew) were working on parcel-based resources
[11:44]	Saijanai Kuhn:	experiment*
[11:44]	Sindy Tsure w00ts
[11:44]	Simon Linden:	figureing out script load like that
[11:44]	Sindy Tsure:	oh?? is that exposed to residents?
[11:45]	Simon Linden:	I don't know how far along it's come
[11:45]	Sooden Ren:	also - i do understand that sending such sposice info is more bandwicth
[11:45]	Sindy Tsure:	ok.. ty
[11:45]	Simon Linden:	Sooden - I doubt that's going to get attention soon. It's annoying, but bigger problems are going to get attention first
[11:45]	Sooden Ren:	procise information* ( i cant spell - sorry prople)
[11:46]	Sooden Ren:	well as long as its not my Graphic card
[11:46]	Sooden Ren:	and all have the bug, no biggy
[11:46]	Simon Linden:	No, it's our messaging. I hit that a while ago with a bug where rotations couldn't be set to 180 - they would shift to 179.99 or such
[11:46]	Kitto Flora:	Inability to see the load caused by scripts results in bad scripted objects, and mainland sims that have problems - overloaded by scripts
[11:47]	Sooden Ren:	well, dont tell my bank manager, cus i still wanna upgarde me card :P
[11:47]	Sindy Tsure:	i sometimes see the 'active scripts' perf meter go over 9k.. really love to be able to see who's abusing my mainland home..
[11:47]	Kitto Flora:	Allowing mainland parcel renters to see 'Top Scripts' would help that a lot
[11:48]	Kitto Flora:	*telling* script writers what their script hit tim is would help a lot too
[11:48]	Simon Linden:	There was a change I made a while ago that should be out by now ... 'Top Scripts' should include attachments, so the AV name would appear in the Name column
[11:48]	Sindy Tsure:	ooo
[11:48]	Simon Linden:	Maybe that's in 1.25
[11:48]	Kitto Flora:	Simon: Thats good
[11:48]	Sindy Tsure nods.. estate managers will love that
[11:48]	Kitto Flora:	Saves getting the av to sit on a null-script object
[11:49]	Vry Offcourse:	yes, sim owners would respond well to that
[11:49]	Simon Linden:	I also found a bug / feature were we're running attachment scripts more often than we thought. Nothing's been done about it, however, as if we 'fixed' it then attachments wouldn't work as well as they do now
[11:49]	Sooden Ren:	i know what control i want for my estats, to set the water colour as a defult, like you do with the ddaytime
[11:49]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Simon, how difficult is it to get a new protocol implemented between client and server? Did a little benchmarking with wireshark and llSetTExt yesterday. packet for Objectupdate is pretty large and it gets sent for every change in floating text
[11:50]	Simon Linden:	It's not easy, but I would love to do it. I really don't like our messaging structure and protocol
[11:50]	Kitto Flora:	Simon: Might that account for Avs that apparently have 1000+ attached scripts?
[11:50]	Rex Cronon:	a lsl function that given a user key , and returning how heavy that person scripts r, would also be good:)
[11:50]	Sindy Tsure:	really? so.. er.. scripts in attachments perform better than non-attachment scripts?
[11:52]	Simon Linden:	I think so ... it also depends on the script. If you set it up with one type of event, it would get executed more often
[11:52]	Simon Linden:	I think it was dealing with keystrokes and controls
[11:52]	Saijanai Kuhn had to debug the pyogp protocol parser a few weeks ago. much non-<3 for it as well
[11:52]	Vry Offcourse:	ahah, sounds like a disscosion about the human mind, and mid conciessness
[11:52]	Sindy Tsure:	hm.. maybe something done ages ago to help vehicle performance?
[11:53]	Sindy Tsure:	er.. scratch that.. never mind :)
[11:53]	Simon Linden:	I think so ... wanted to make the scripts very responsive to key input
[11:53]	Saijanai Kuhn:	rez a bunch of these babyes and watch bandwidth use go through the roof
[11:54]	Sindy Tsure:	sooden, andrew was talking about something similar last thursday.. having custom horizons and such that estate owners could control
[11:54]	Sooden Ren:	cool
[11:54]	Vry Offcourse:	or save and sale
[11:54]	Sindy Tsure nods.. llSetText has always been a full update.. :(
[11:54]	Sooden Ren:	so its in the linden main brain :P
[11:54]	Sindy Tsure:	sadly, color changing titlers have become popular.. :(
[11:55]	Sindy Tsure:	well, a linden chatting about it and it hitting the grid are two different things..
[11:55]	Simon Linden:	Very true ... we have way too many ideas and too little time to do them
[11:56]	Sooden Ren:	well, they talked of it when windlight came in
[11:56]	Sooden Ren:	just taking time i guess
[11:56]	Sooden Ren:	or on a note card under the rug
[11:56]	Saijanai Kuhn:	issue is that the touchdetected* calls just BG for floating text feedback for slider controls
[11:56]	Saijanai Kuhn:	BEG*
[11:57]	Simon Linden:	The hour is winding down ... any other questions or issues to bring up?
[11:57]	Vry Offcourse:	can some processes be transfered to the users CPU
[11:58]	Kitto Flora hopes Simon can find his missing railcars :)
[11:58]	Sindy Tsure:	have any in particular in mind?
[11:58]	Vry Offcourse:	color changing
[11:58]	Saijanai Kuhn:	that jira for sculpty animation would use a tiling thing to animate sculpties client side
[11:58]	Simon Linden:	Vry - speaking at a high level, yes. It would be great to offload a lot of work to the viewers
[11:59]	Simon Linden:	One specific one I know about is camera positioning
[11:59]	Saijanai Kuhn:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-2276
[11:59]	Vry Offcourse:	wonderful ty
[11:59]	Simon Linden:	We had a company meeting once and measured 20% of the sim time was spent positioning everyone's camera
[11:59]	Sindy Tsure eeps!
[11:59]	Saijanai Kuhn:	chee
[11:59]	Arawn Spitteler:	Viewer could eventually input to sliders, as to how much they could cary.
[11:59]	Sooden Ren:	and good computers are becoming cheap, so do it :p
[11:59]	Sindy Tsure:	why is that done on the sim, simon?
[12:00]	Simon Linden:	There was a bug in that code (which we fixed) but the whole job could be done on the client if it had a better model of the world
[12:00]	Simon Linden:	It'd done there due to the physics engine
[12:00]	Kitto Flora:	Why does phys engine care where the camera is?
[12:00]	Simon Linden:	It's used to cast rays and figure out if there's an object between the AV and the camera position
[12:00]	Saijanai Kuhn:	well, more things to try to change with OGP. One use-case for OGP is theatre sims where everyone is an invisble ghost with just a camera view
[12:01]	Sooden Ren:	then humps the cam silly
[12:01]	Simon Linden:	yeah, that can get fun
[12:01]	Sooden Ren:	:P
[12:01]	Sindy Tsure:	so it's on the sim because havok is good at the ray casting stuff?
[12:01]	Simon Linden:	Saijanai - yeah, there are a lot of interesting variations for events that would be fun to experiment with
[12:01]	Simon Linden:	Sindy - yes
[12:01]	Vry Offcourse:	so if we are the camera, we could project are fourm...hahah
[12:01]	Vry Offcourse:	so fun
[12:02]	Simon Linden:	But that in particular seems like something we could move to the viewer
[12:02]	Sooden Ren:	hope you do :)
[12:02]	Sooden Ren:	then maybe open up more cam functions
[12:02]	Kitto Flora has to wonder if the camera really needs any interaction with the sim-code
[12:02]	Arawn Spitteler:	How much out of field info do clients receive?
[12:03]	Simon Linden:	The camera postion and direction determines what updates are sent down to the viewer - you won't get updates from stuff that's far away and you're not looking at
[12:03]	Sindy Tsure:	hm.. there's a decent-sized group of people that aren't happy with privacy in sl.. if the sim owns the camera, you might be able to have privacy zones.. maybe?
[12:03]	Kitto Flora:	Arawan: Apparently lots - the minimap shows activity - even ghost activity that is way out of camera view
[12:03]	Simon Linden:	So we need some info about the camera, but we certainly could come up with more efficient ways to do it and put the workload on the viewer
[12:04]	Kitto Flora:	Simon: That might be the idea, but its not what happens
[12:04]	Rex Cronon:	hmm. if u need that much privacy, maybe u should run your own OS:)
[12:04]	Sindy Tsure:	quiet, you
[12:04]	Sindy Tsure:	:P
[12:04]	Arawn Spitteler:	The Client would have to tell the sim, which way the camera points, so the sim could orient the avatar.
[12:05]	Simon Linden:	They aren't always connected, depending on the mode
[12:05]	Sindy Tsure:	time for me to run.. TY, Simon!! Happy Holidays, all!
[12:05]	Kitto Flora:	Time for lunch and snowballs!
[12:05]	Simon Linden:	Thanks for coming ... I've gotta go to
[12:06]	Kitto Flora:	Happy Yuletide to all! :)
[12:06]	Vry Offcourse:	ALOHA
[12:06]	Simon Linden:	Yes, I'm going to be in the snowball fight later this afternoon. Hope to see you folks around
[12:06]	Rex Cronon:	happy hollydays to everybody:)
[12:06]	Kitto Flora:	Byebye
[12:06]	Sooden Ren:	ibb
[12:06]	Arawn Spitteler:	Lunch and Launch Lounge?
[12:06]	Simon Linden:	Thanks for coming
[12:06]	Rex Cronon:	bye everybody
[12:06]	Asriazh Frye:	bye anmd merry xmas ^^
[12:07]	Vry Offcourse:	That was interesting meeting, that was nice to let me tag along, I am going to my box now