Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2011.02.18
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List of Speakers
| Andrew Linden | Crimson Wytchwood | Cummere Mayo |
| DogWomble Dollinger | Draconis Neurocam | Griefer Evermore |
| Jonathan Yap | Kaluura Boa | KayTee Haustraun |
| Krull Quar | Liisa Runo | Moon Metty |
| Moundsa Mayo | Plastic Duck | RedMokum Bravin |
| Rex Cronon | Sebastean Steamweaver | Sigma Avro |
| Simon Linden | Stickman Resident |
Transcript
[16:02] Kaluura Boa: Look who calls me "furry"! =^_^=
[16:02] RedMokum Bravin: Hey Andrew!
[16:02] DogWomble Dollinger: hi andrew
[16:02] Sigma Avro: helo
[16:02] Draconis Neurocam: Welcome Andrew
[16:02] Krull Quar: Welcome Andrew
[16:02] Crimson Wytchwood: Hello Andrew :)
[16:03] Andrew Linden: Hello
[16:03] RedMokum Bravin: Andrew we always land in the water from the slurl in the wiki.
[16:03] Sebastean Steamweaver: Hey andrew
[16:03] Sigma Avro: so we are clean
[16:03] Sebastean Steamweaver: and anyone I've missed
[16:03] Moon Metty: hi hi
[16:03] Andrew Linden: Ok I'll try to check the slurl
[16:03] Moundsa Mayo: Allo all
[16:03] Stickman Resident: And my alarm just went off. I forgot of a prior engagement. Hi Andrew, bye Andrew!
[16:03] Andrew Linden: last time I TP'ed directly with coordinates I ended up in the water too
[16:03] Andrew Linden: dunno what is up with that
[16:04] RedMokum Bravin: Kinda used to be in water but sometimes I hear people swear.
[16:04] DogWomble Dollinger: hey simon
[16:04] Simon Linden: Hello everyone :)
[16:04] Andrew Linden: ah good Simon made it
[16:04] Krull Quar: Gday
[16:04] Simon Linden: Got my new tires and made it back in time :)
[16:05] RedMokum Bravin: Ah.. safe driving.
[16:05] Cummere Mayo: hello simon hello andrew
[16:05] Crimson Wytchwood: Hi Simon :)
[16:05] Andrew Linden: News for this week...
[16:05] Andrew Linden: I've been working on misc stuff that won't be visible to the residents...
[16:06] Draconis Neurocam: how was the hackathon?
[16:06] Andrew Linden: I spent the first part of the week fixing little C++ warnings found by coverity (enterprise C++ analysis tool)
[16:06] Andrew Linden: then spent the end of the week helping with the viewer Vistual Studio 2010 hackathon
[16:06] Krull Quar: Sounds intriguing find anything pertinent
[16:07] Jonathan Yap: Was Coverity run on the viewer too?
[16:07] Andrew Linden: making 3rd party libs compile in VS2010 and our autobuild tool
[16:07] Andrew Linden: Yes Jonathan, Coverity was run on the viewer
[16:07] Draconis Neurocam: ooh
[16:07] Andrew Linden: Monty Linden was doing some of the Covertry response work too.
[16:08] Andrew Linden: No, I haven't found anything very interesting in the Coverity warnings yet.
[16:08] Andrew Linden: Real bugs, but most of them were not being tickled for various reaons.
[16:08] Andrew Linden: reasons
[16:08] Andrew Linden: I think I found one that *might* have caused some real damage (crashes or corrupt info) in some very rare cases.
[16:09] Andrew Linden: But I can't remember the details.
[16:09] Krull Quar: How do you keep track of the flow with such an involved application
[16:09] Rex Cronon: greetings everybody
[16:09] Krull Quar: Oh Hiya Rex
[16:10] Moundsa Mayo: Hey Rex
[16:10] Andrew Linden: Simon if you have any news go ahead.
[16:10] Andrew Linden: I've got someone asking me questions in RL that need to be answered.
[16:10] Sebastean Steamweaver: A relative!
[16:11] Simon Linden: No, I don't have anything to add
[16:11] Rex Cronon: hi krll, moundsa
[16:11] Rex Cronon: krull*
[16:11] Simon Linden: I've been working on performance at the messaging level, and hope that work will get out in a week or two
[16:11] Krull Quar: ;)
[16:12] Cummere Mayo: in that case simon any news on https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-6769 and related bugs?
[16:12] JIRA-helper: [#SVC-6769] Taking off part or all of a clothing/attachment set and then wearing another item often causes the the removed item(s) to reapear
[16:13] Simon Linden: I don't have news on that, but I think Andrew was looking at it earlier this week
[16:13] Jonathan Yap: Is there any chance svc-378 could get some love?
[16:13] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-378
[#SVC-378] Role 'Everyone' in new groups should not have ability "Pay group liabilities and receive group dividends"
[16:14] Simon Linden: I do know someone found some ugly behavior in the viewer ... it looks like it re-attaches everything when it logs into a region. I don't know the details, but it sounded like something bad added in the past to cover up some other error
[16:14] Krull Quar: That could explain a few things
[16:14] Draconis Neurocam: that sounds unfun
[16:14] Moundsa Mayo: Heee. Sooner or later, patches-on-patches become too thick B^)
[16:15] Cummere Mayo: possibly but yeah this is kinda annoying. i cant even change outfits without it anymore
[16:15] RedMokum Bravin: It can turn you into a funny mix of avatars actually, Draconis.
[16:15] Andrew Linden: that sounds like that bug I noticed in Aditi then could not reproduce on agni...
[16:15] Andrew Linden: STORM-958 or something like that
[16:15] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-958
[#STORM-958] LLAgentWearables::userUpdateAttachments() is unecessarily expensive server-side
[16:15] Andrew Linden: yeah, that's the one
[16:16] Cummere Mayo: could that be a contributor to the bugs we're seeing andrew?
[16:16] Andrew Linden: Yes, could be.
[16:16] Sigma Avro: interesting !
[16:16] Andrew Linden: I haven't looked into why the viewer would ever call userUpdateAttachments() yet.
[16:17] Cummere Mayo: im surprised a server bug is in storm ^^
[16:17] Andrew Linden: But I'm guessing at least one of the paths to that call is erroneous or unneeded.
[16:18] Andrew Linden: In the particular case I was seeing the call the viewer is making it unecessarily -- on login.
[16:18] Cummere Mayo: hmmm
[16:18] Cummere Mayo: could that also be a contributor to storm-526 then?
[16:19] JIRA-helper: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-526
[#STORM-526] Log out failure during Login causes loss of pending offers, including inventory
[16:19] Draconis Neurocam: that would explain why i start with no skin and everything has to rebake on login
[16:19] Andrew Linden: When I noticed the bug it wasn't about attachments getting out of sync, but just that the viewer was doing something stupid.
[16:19] Andrew Linden: No, I don't think it is related to -526
[16:20] Andrew Linden: Ok, so the discussion is open....
[16:20] Andrew Linden: hrm... I had something I wanted to ask you guys.
[16:20] Andrew Linden: I'll try to remember it.
[16:20] Sebastean Steamweaver: Hmm
[16:21] Sebastean Steamweaver: Did it have anything to do with land?
[16:21] Draconis Neurocam: is anyone set to fix those problems with the viewer you found?
[16:21] Moundsa Mayo: Did we want doughnuts or crullers, maybe?
[16:21] DogWomble Dollinger: coffee or beer?
[16:21] Andrew Linden: Draconis Neurocamg into the attachment problems next week
[16:22] Krull Quar: Cinnamon buns with cheesy creamy icing sugar
[16:22] Andrew Linden: if it is viewer problems we may fix it there, but we'd want to make the server resilient too
[16:22] Andrew Linden: but I don't understand the source of the problem well enough yet
[16:22] Sigma Avro: it seems there is a lot of attachment failures on magnum
[16:22] Moundsa Mayo: And Blue Mountain black, Krull?
[16:22] KayTee Haustraun: Or just the icing itself
[16:22] Andrew Linden: Yes I remember what I was going to ask...
[16:22] Draconis Neurocam: i think it would make sense to make both as resilient as possible
[16:22] Krull Quar: Could be
[16:22] Cummere Mayo: sigma its grid wide
[16:22] DogWomble Dollinger: ask away and avoid awful alliteration andrew
[16:23] Sigma Avro: ok, Cummere, can belive you
[16:23] Sebastean Steamweaver: Alliterations are awesome.
[16:23] Griefer Evermore: Do these inventory issues include having two shapes showing as being worn?
[16:23] Andrew Linden: I had joked with Richard Linden that maybe he needed to rewrite the animation system and he asked: "What does it need?"
[16:23] Sebastean Steamweaver: !!!!!
[16:23] Andrew Linden: so I figured I would forward the question to you guys to see what requests you had
[16:23] Sebastean Steamweaver: Stick will be kicking himself - one sec Andrew, let me try and get him back here.
[16:23] Draconis Neurocam: actually, i feel like the animation system is very robust, but the client doesnt support all that is possible
[16:23] Sigma Avro: hands, please do something for hands
[16:24] Cummere Mayo: proper puppeteering, better bone/muscular control
[16:24] Moundsa Mayo: Syncing with avatar parts
[16:24] Cummere Mayo: and yeah hhands feet and facial
[16:24] Kaluura Boa: Yes! Hands!
[16:24] Draconis Neurocam: direct upload of .anim files
[16:24] Jonathan Yap: I would like to be able to change the priority after an upload
[16:24] Sebastean Steamweaver: And feet
[16:24] Kaluura Boa: Priorities too!
[16:24] RedMokum Bravin: Movement of lips.. even if you are not on voice. Would be very nice for singers on stage.
[16:24] Sigma Avro: facial its more or less ok, but hands, no way to control rhem
[16:24] Andrew Linden: yup, syncing of hands would be nice
[16:24] Andrew Linden makes a list
[16:24] DogWomble Dollinger: actually being able to change the priority is probably a good thing
[16:24] Simon Linden: I had a conversation with Richard about that too ... there are lots of good ideas around
[16:24] Moundsa Mayo: Feet for pedaling, too.
[16:24] RedMokum Bravin: I often visit Theatre on the hill, where they do revues. Singing without lipsync looks awful.
[16:25] Draconis Neurocam: the ability to animate attachment points, i know its possible but requires viewer modification
[16:25] DogWomble Dollinger: only because it will allow corrections if for example you sit down and realise your AO competes with the sitting animation
[16:25] Moon Metty: super imposable animations
[16:25] Moon Metty: if that's a word lol
[16:25] Sebastean Steamweaver: Darn, stick is off at dinner.
[16:25] Liisa Runo: ability to LSL a joint(hand) to be locked to object rezzed in-world, For example to always place hand on the steering wheel of a car, no matter whta shape and size you are
[16:25] DogWomble Dollinger: superimposible or superimpossible?
[16:25] Moundsa Mayo: And interacting animations between avatars.
[16:26] Sebastean Steamweaver: Official support system for deformations.
[16:26] Draconis Neurocam: anything to five more control to lsl to deal with them
[16:26] Sigma Avro: there is no express-hand -em
te, so it is needed high priority with selected hand shape and this brekes the others anaims
[16:26] Draconis Neurocam: give*
[16:26] Jonathan Yap: I think you cannot change the priority now because assets are immutable
[16:26] Krull Quar: Has anyone thought about hierarchical capability
[16:26] Sebastean Steamweaver: A joint for the toes, the neck, and accompanying attachment points.
[16:27] Andrew Linden: yes, assets cannot be modified once written
[16:27] Sebastean Steamweaver: Objects with stand-alone animations that do not require an avatar, so you can have an object itself animate.
[16:27] Draconis Neurocam: that would be part of mesh sebastean
[16:27] RedMokum Bravin: Using Puppeteer now.
[16:27] Sebastean Steamweaver: I'd prefer it not be confined to mesh, though.
[16:28] Sigma Avro: well need mesh and no more avats. Poor bots, they will dye soon
[16:28] Andrew Linden: ok thanks for that list
[16:28] RedMokum Bravin: Rien ne va plus? :-)
[16:28] Andrew Linden: I wrote most of it down and will relay it to Richard.
[16:28] Kaluura Boa: It would also be nice not to always have the sit animation when you sit on something... So that you can position/rotate an avi but not interfere with the standing anims
[16:29] Griefer Evermore: If we ask around and get more suggestions, can we pass them on to you?
[16:29] Sebastean Steamweaver: Andrew, could Stickman send you a notecard?
[16:29] Liisa Runo: oh, one more, fix some of the defalt LL anims, like the gun hold for example. It still does the butt-peek glitch
[16:29] Andrew Linden: However I know he doesn't have much time to work on animation, hence the reason I brought up the joke with him in the first place.
[16:29] Sebastean Steamweaver: Or an email, to relay to him?
[16:29] Andrew Linden: But I wasn't preprared to list everything that animations needed.
[16:29] Sebastean Steamweaver: He's at dinner at the moment, and I know he'll be kicking himself that he wasn't here.
[16:29] Andrew Linden: Sure, Stickman can email me.
[16:29] Draconis Neurocam: its good that thought is even there
[16:30] Sigma Avro: by the way, can somthing be done on avat meshing ?
[16:30] Andrew Linden: I dunno much about meshes for avatars.
[16:30] Sigma Avro: ok
[16:30] Sebastean Steamweaver: Sigma: new avatar meshes will probably come at some point after mesh.
[16:30] Andrew Linden: I thought we were working on that a little bit on the side.
[16:30] Andrew Linden: But don't know the status of it.
[16:30] RedMokum Bravin: In http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Internal_Animations an internal animation is also still reported as "missing".
[16:31] Sigma Avro: tks Sebastian, would like to have some link to follow this
[16:32] Andrew Linden: I'm supposed to publish these User Group transcripts.
[16:32] Kaluura Boa: Talking about internal animations, an LSL way to replace them would be so niiiiice... To make all scripted or client AOs obsolete.
[16:32] Andrew Linden: I've been saving them, but need to find the time to actually publish them.
[16:32] Andrew Linden: I'll try to get up to date this weekend.
[16:32] Moundsa Mayo: Someone might start an Animations Upgrade List Wiki page ...
[16:32] Andrew Linden: (along with all the other stuff I'm trying to get done then)
[16:32] Simon Linden: Yes, I'd really like people to be able to just specify a walk animation (and others) and let the sim do the work
[16:33] Sebastean Steamweaver: Being able to change the default animations used for avatar stats, per avatar, Kaluura? That's been requested for a while.
[16:33] Draconis Neurocam: i cant imagine how busy you must actually be andrew, these meetings are appretiated
[16:33] Sebastean Steamweaver: It would be so far better than overriders.
[16:33] Sigma Avro: yes, agree , overides must cause a lot of load on servers and sims
[16:33] Kaluura Boa: AOs spend their time stopping default anims... That's stupid...
[16:34] Sebastean Steamweaver: Then again, removing the flight height limit would also be good ;)
[16:34] Draconis Neurocam: yes simon that would be very nice
[16:34] Sigma Avro: well, flight heigh is nice for newbees, remeber my first days...
[16:34] RedMokum Bravin: As long as we don't start to bounce upon the slightest jump like in OpenSim.
[16:34] Griefer Evermore: lol
[16:34] Moundsa Mayo: Open whaaaa?
[16:35] RedMokum Bravin: You know, where physics appear to be absent. >:-)
[16:35] Sebastean Steamweaver: I think the general consensus was that flight height would need to be a toggleable feature.
[16:35] Sigma Avro: why not a gradient like flight limit ?
[16:35] Moundsa Mayo: Maybe defaulted on until 30 days old or some such
[16:36] Andrew Linden: would anyone here complain if we removed the flight height limit?
[16:36] Sebastean Steamweaver: I would not.
[16:36] Draconis Neurocam: no
[16:36] Griefer Evermore: no
[16:36] Krull Quar: Nope
[16:36] Kaluura Boa: Nope!
[16:36] DogWomble Dollinger: i wouldn't
[16:36] RedMokum Bravin: Not at all.
[16:36] Sigma Avro: I would, lol
[16:36] Krull Quar: Save me from wearing a flight feather
[16:36] Krull Quar: Fewer script costs
[16:36] Sebastean Steamweaver: Save the sims from flight feathers
[16:36] Sigma Avro: well, actually, it causes also a lot of lag for flight feathers
[16:36] Krull Quar: hehe
[16:36] Andrew Linden: It might be hard to change after all these years.
[16:36] DogWomble Dollinger: well, i've got flight assist switched on in a hud anyways, but switching the flight height off would mean i could disable that feature
[16:37] DogWomble Dollinger: well is there anythign disabling flight height would break?
[16:37] Sebastean Steamweaver: Flight feathers lol
[16:37] Andrew Linden: I'd probably have to add a bit that allows estate owners to set the flight limit.
[16:37] Griefer Evermore: apart from banlines?
[16:37] Krull Quar: lol
[16:37] Draconis Neurocam: i remember a formal request to remove it a few months ago, the return from the linden side was that it would ruin immersion
[16:37] Sebastean Steamweaver: Well, that would generally defeat the purpose I'd think.
[16:37] Sigma Avro: sure that yes, but not for me specifically. Should be more asked arround, seems to me
[16:38] KayTee Haustraun: I actually had a question
[16:38] Sebastean Steamweaver: You'd still have to have the flight feather script for sims that had it enabled.
[16:38] Krull Quar: People always find ways around flight limits anyway
[16:38] Andrew Linden: hrm... maybe I could turn it into an option with a default setting, and then estate owners could turn it off
[16:38] Moundsa Mayo: Yes.
[16:38] Draconis Neurocam: that would be good
[16:38] Andrew Linden: then eventually we could turn if off on the mainland
[16:38] Sigma Avro: oh, yes put nit in sim console, would be nice
[16:38] KayTee Haustraun: Why doesn't everyone get their own last name anymore?
[16:38] RedMokum Bravin: I remember flying on a prim in my first days. Thought it was clever... lol.
[16:39] Krull Quar: Could it be defaulted so that sim owners had to turn it on and explain that it would cause less lag based on no need for flight assist scripts instead
[16:39] Sebastean Steamweaver: They use "usernames" now. If you want a last name, you would need to use a viewer that supports "Display Names" and change it.
[16:39] Moundsa Mayo: Or even use it as a training aid for new Residents - they could learn the first settings change by turning it off.
[16:39] Andrew Linden: KayTee that was part of the "Display Names" project -- there is only one last name available now
[16:39] Draconis Neurocam: how often does the message template from the server get updated to the viewer end?
[16:39] KayTee Haustraun: Why?
[16:39] Sigma Avro: yes, Red, that is why I find this feature nice, and could have been used for PG questions rather than making new constinents
[16:39] Andrew Linden: Dunno actually, I wasn't part of the "Display Names" project.
[16:39] Sigma Avro: *continents
[16:40] Moundsa Mayo: Well, there's still Linden, and Scout, but they're much harder to get B^)
[16:40] Jonathan Yap: Yes Andrew, I need that server template pushed to the viewer code; a bugfix is waiting on it
[16:40] Andrew Linden: Draconis, we don't update the message template much at all these days.
[16:40] Draconis Neurocam: see jonathan*
[16:40] Andrew Linden: oh... I documented the template change
[16:40] Sebastean Steamweaver: Andrew, I would be in favor of the default being "Off" but I would give scriptors a big notice of about 2 months at least, before release date, so that those who currently integrate flight feathers could make the transition.
[16:41] RedMokum Bravin: Still I see very young avatars with "normal" family names. So the registration API is still out there and using old style naming.
[16:41] KayTee Haustraun: Last names make us unique. Everyone being named "Resident" makes us seem like we have no personality
[16:41] Sebastean Steamweaver: scripters*
[16:41] Sebastean Steamweaver: You only see "Resident" if you use a third-party viewer, or a viewer that doesn't support display names.
[16:42] Sigma Avro: well, flight feather will be the same problem as resizing scripts, thre was a suggestion of being abble to brake them, but oposition because already sold at high price
[16:42] Draconis Neurocam: theres still some third party regapis that let you sign up with a last name, but they are few and far between
[16:42] Griefer Evermore: Flight feathers are sold?
[16:42] RedMokum Bravin: I would still like to be able to delete scripts from non mod items.
[16:42] Kaluura Boa: No... It's free
[16:42] Sebastean Steamweaver: If they are integrated into other products, yes.
[16:42] Sigma Avro: lol, yes even these are sold
[16:42] Sebastean Steamweaver: Some people write their own into things.
[16:43] Sebastean Steamweaver: All I'm saying is, people would need plenty of notice, but I don't think anyone would mind. There aren't many people I know who don't wear a flight feather of some kind at all times.'
[16:44] Rex Cronon: i don't wear one
[16:44] Rex Cronon: is too laggy sometimes
[16:44] Sigma Avro: mine is integrated elsewhere
[16:44] Krull Quar: I always have one on
[16:44] Crimson Wytchwood: Me too
[16:44] Kaluura Boa: Me too... Can't be switch off
[16:44] Sebastean Steamweaver: I need to bolt folks - got a dinner appointment this evening.
[16:45] Sebastean Steamweaver: Take care all
[16:45] Krull Quar: Night Sebastean
[16:45] RedMokum Bravin: Enjoy Sebastean!
[16:45] Sigma Avro: by Sebast
[16:45] Rex Cronon: is very easy to turn off. detach it:)
[16:45] Moon Metty: bye Seb :)
[16:45] Rex Cronon: tc
[16:45] Moundsa Mayo: Cya. Enjoy the meal!
[16:45] RedMokum Bravin: Good quality of hay I hope.
[16:45] Sebastean Steamweaver: Thanks! Red Lobster ;)
[16:45] Jonathan Yap: Can we talk about https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-378 for a few moments?
[16:45] JIRA-helper: [#SVC-378] Role 'Everyone' in new groups should not have ability "Pay group liabilities and receive group dividends"
[16:45] Sigma Avro: seems indeed a good change to do
[16:46] Andrew Linden: Sure Jonathan.
[16:46] Krull Quar: Ahh yes the defaulted new member settings
[16:46] Jonathan Yap: Any chance of that getting some attention in one of the misc. fixes you do?
[16:46] Andrew Linden opens the jira...
[16:46] RedMokum Bravin: I actually ran into that one when we sold land. :-p
[16:46] Simon Linden: Are both of those things an issue, or just one?
[16:46] Jonathan Yap: One of my alts now has a balance of L$-10
[16:46] Kaluura Boa: hehehe
[16:46] RedMokum Bravin: My group was sending L$5000 to all members.
[16:46] Krull Quar: Oh my
[16:47] Cummere Mayo: uch
[16:47] Krull Quar: What group was that?
[16:47] Jonathan Yap: We all will join
[16:47] Rex Cronon: 5k? what group:)
[16:47] Sigma Avro: since it is just a default seting, it is not dificult to change it. But there also some months are neede to inform some groups, seems to me
[16:47] Krull Quar: hehe
[16:47] RedMokum Bravin: I fixed it after 3 members said thank you for it.
[16:47] Jonathan Yap: I think the idea is to change it for only new groups
[16:47] Jonathan Yap: Not to touch existing groups
[16:47] Sigma Avro: the time I can join Red"s group, hehe
[16:47] Krull Quar: Yes
[16:47] Moundsa Mayo: Yah, least impact that way.
[16:47] Cummere Mayo: to have that on as a default is silly
[16:48] Krull Quar: I agree
[16:48] Krull Quar: Well it's not logical
[16:48] Jonathan Yap: It is more than silly, you can lose money
[16:48] RedMokum Bravin: Also you shouldn't be tricked into being responsible for payment in all those groups that shops try to make you a member of.
[16:48] Andrew Linden: yeah that is an old issue. Lots of comments.
[16:48] Moundsa Mayo: Sure, it's Boolean B^)
[16:48] RedMokum Bravin: Boolean Shit :-)
[16:48] Sigma Avro: I know many group whose dividends are negative
[16:48] Cummere Mayo: ive seen it used to scam people
[16:49] Sigma Avro: so, it neraly required to do this change
[16:49] RedMokum Bravin: Nigerian group membership letters... lol.
[16:49] Krull Quar: rofl
[16:49] Cummere Mayo: lol
[16:49] Cummere Mayo: surprised zfire hasnt taken advantage of this yet ...
[16:50] Cummere Mayo: lol
[16:50] Moundsa Mayo: Should be a blue popup warning you'll be "Subject to group Liabilities if you join this group."
[16:50] RedMokum Bravin: Yes!
[16:50] Cummere Mayo: definately
[16:50] Krull Quar: Ditto!
[16:50] Kaluura Boa: Even a yellow one...
[16:50] Jonathan Yap: yes, but would you know what that means?
[16:50] Rex Cronon: u also need to know how much liability u r talking about:)
[16:50] Moundsa Mayo: And wehn it's set on, all group members get a message saying so.
[16:51] Jonathan Yap: maybe "money may automatically be taken from your account"
[16:51] Krull Quar: If it says Money will be taken every week in big bold red letters with and OK-Cancel window maybe
[16:51] Moundsa Mayo: Well, anything to lessen the abuse incidence.
[16:51] Sigma Avro: groups have so many optins, that providing all the informations needed maybe tedious
[16:51] Jonathan Yap: It must be a moderate issue for the support people "where did my money go?"
[16:52] Andrew Linden wonders who to talk to get an approval of that bug...
[16:52] Sigma Avro: cant say it nhere, lol,
[16:52] Cummere Mayo: ive seen group owners buy a parcel of land then divide it up into 16m^2 parcels and then buy it for the group on an alt
[16:52] Andrew Linden: I suspect it is very easy to make the change... once we figured out where it was to be done.
[16:52] Jonathan Yap: Probably in some template setting file
[16:52] Andrew Linden: That is, not a lot of code changes.
[16:53] Jonathan Yap: Andrew, do you agree it is a good idea?
[16:53] Krull Quar: To avoid potential fraud, what if taking money from group members was only available to residents with payment info on file
[16:53] Moundsa Mayo: Yah, like my marketing people have said - "All yo need to do is add a button." B^D
[16:54] Krull Quar: As it is now anyone can create a group
[16:54] Simon Linden: We'd probably have to make sure a bunch of other LL folks agreed, but it doesn't sound like that would be too hard to do
[16:54] Andrew Linden: I *guess* it is a good idea. My opinion is swayed by the popular sentiment in this case
[16:54] Moundsa Mayo: But more likely a single change from 1 to 0 hidden deep in a source file not touched for years.
[16:54] Andrew Linden: because I really don't *use* groups myself.
[16:55] Andrew Linden: And I haven't done much group coding, so I don't know the feature set well.
[16:55] Simon Linden: hmm, maybe we can start one for this User Group and see how that can be abused...
[16:55] Krull Quar: Some people use groups heavily and drill down into the details
[16:55] Simon Linden: err, I mean, how the feature works
[16:55] Krull Quar: lol
[16:55] Andrew Linden: I asked one LL dev who is sitting nearby and he was surprised that it does not work the way you all want it to work.
[16:55] Draconis Neurocam: hahaha
[16:55] Moon Metty: :)
[16:55] Moundsa Mayo: Oh, is ther an actual User Group for us to join now?
[16:55] Simon Linden: Not that I know of, I'm just making this up
[16:56] Krull Quar: hehe
[16:56] Cummere Mayo: andrew i would be glad to demonstrate it for all the lindens that need convincing
[16:56] Sigma Avro: beta group
[16:56] Cummere Mayo grins evilly
[16:56] Krull Quar: lol
[16:56] Moundsa Mayo: Everything is virtual at some level, Simon B^)
[16:56] Krull Quar: <-- THinks about a new group
[16:56] DogWomble Dollinger: you mean i'm not real moundsa?
[16:56] DogWomble Dollinger: :P
[16:56] Andrew Linden: No Cummere, probably not a good idea to campaign too hard.
[16:57] Sigma Avro: fraud group, hehe
[16:57] Krull Quar: rofl
[16:57] Krull Quar: Anti Fraud group :P
[16:57] Plastic Duck: it does add up, I have alts that are over 10,000L in debt from random group fees
[16:57] Griefer Evermore: too many alts?
[16:57] Andrew Linden: But I'll ask around to see what other people think, and to see if I can find the people who are stakeholders in the group feature set.
[16:57] Kaluura Boa: Too many groups...
[16:57] Cummere Mayo: >.> i was just going to make a linden fan group invite lindens and then um... you know buy a 20million linden plot of ground from myself >.>
[16:57] Sigma Avro: beta fraud sounds nice
[16:57] Krull Quar: God I could create a thousand alts and sign them all up and be rich!
[16:57] Jonathan Yap: But where did that non-existent money go?
[16:58] Sigma Avro: I have been frauded by a no existing anymore avat, so I knwo where it went
[16:58] Cummere Mayo is kidding btw
[16:58] SL Bear Gun: Bear's away!
[16:58] Plastic Duck: it goes to Linden I think, it's just the search fee right?
[16:58] SL Bear Gun: Cease fire!
[16:58] Cummere Mayo: search fees land tiers etc
[16:59] RedMokum Bravin: Any plans for setting reasonable settings on abandoned land yet?
[16:59] Jonathan Yap: That whole system should be rethought, but at least changing this would help
[16:59] Andrew Linden: Yes there are plans on that RedMokum.
[16:59] RedMokum Bravin: I found a huge working shop on a 16384m2 parcel that was abandoned.
[16:59] Sigma Avro: well, goods sold by baned avatars are not destructed, that is a problem, can make fraud to continue
[17:00] Andrew Linden: I had Guy Linden write up the specs for what he thought should be done for abandoned land.
[17:00] RedMokum Bravin: Ah great!
[17:00] Andrew Linden: And that item is on my backlog.
[17:00] RedMokum Bravin: Saves him a whole backload as well.
[17:01] Andrew Linden: Yes, I think that if I could get that done then Guy's time would open up and he could do other stuff.
[17:01] Plastic Duck: the original system where the land became public and we had to find it ourselves was genuinely fun
[17:01] Sigma Avro: Andrew, also money taking primls are a problem, seems to me
[17:01] RedMokum Bravin: Very strange that "payment" to objects can still be active on abandoned land.
[17:01] RedMokum Bravin: But seen lots of them this week.
[17:01] Moundsa Mayo: Heh. One friend is being repeatedly spammed by a security orb belonging to an account no loger in Search | People from a shop a region and 290m away.
[17:01] Andrew Linden: ok sorry everyone, but I have to head out so I can be somewhere on time
[17:02] Andrew Linden: have a good weekend
[17:02] Andrew Linden: and thanks for coming
[17:02] Sigma Avro: ok, thanks a lot
[17:02] Jonathan Yap: Moundsa, can't they mute it?
[17:02] Draconis Neurocam: take care andrew and simon
[17:02] RedMokum Bravin: Good weekend.
[17:02] RedMokum Bravin: Thanks for your time.
[17:02] Krull Quar: Thanks andrew have a good weekend
[17:02] Moon Metty: yes, have a good weekend :)
[17:02] Moundsa Mayo: Thanks for your time, Andrew!
[17:02] Sigma Avro: good we all
[17:02] Moon Metty: and thanks for the meeting
[17:02] Griefer Evermore: cya Andrew
[17:02] Simon Linden: Thanks all for coming and the good ideas
[17:02] Jonathan Yap: thanks you simon an andrew
[17:02] Crimson Wytchwood: Thank you Anrew and Simon ..
[17:02] Rex Cronon: tc andrew
[17:02] Moundsa Mayo: And Simon, thanks to you too!
[17:02] Cummere Mayo: tc and ty simon and andrew?
[17:02] Crimson Wytchwood: *Andrew
[17:02] Rex Cronon: tc simon
[17:02] Sigma Avro: both thanks
[17:02] Rex Cronon: tc everybody
[17:02] Simon Linden: Bye everyone, see you next week
[17:02] Krull Quar: Anyone up for a new group membership
[17:03] Plastic Duck: cya
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