Mesh/Archive/2011-10-10

Agenda

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Meeting Notes

Transcript for Monday October 10, 2011

[11:58]	davep	er... did I do that again?
[11:58]	davep	or are you talking about that time a few years ago?
[11:58]	Vincent Nacon	flooded with what?
[11:58]	davep	water
[11:58]	Koli Contepomi	Heh...
[11:58]	Vincent Nacon	oh that?
[11:58]	Vincent Nacon	muhahahaha!
[11:58]	Siana Gearz	i don't know, you kind of seemed proud of the fact last time you mentioned.
[11:59]	davep	yeah, optimizing the moving code
[11:59]	davep	optimized out a necessary call that set the height of the water plane
[11:59]	Siana Gearz	ah, just that :)
[11:59]	davep	yeah....
[11:59]	davep	whoops
[11:59]	Siana Gearz	such things happen to us every few days :P
[12:00]	Rain Edring	Hello:)
[12:00]	Wolfpup	will the rest of the lindens be showing up?
[12:00]	davep	uhh
[12:00]	davep	crazy expensive game grid
[12:00]	Siana Gearz	well, that's what your costs do :P
[12:01]	Koli Contepomi	Yay sim lag
[12:01]	Koli Contepomi	Jesus Geenz
[12:01]	Siana Gearz	oh that's still oldskool grid thing...
[12:01]	Koli Contepomi	My account is so out of date you're not my friend on it.
[12:01]	Vincent Nacon	yeah there's something going on in the corner of this sim
[12:01]	Vincent Nacon	it's rezzing bunch of prims
[12:02]	Geenz Spad	:>
[12:02]	Wolfpup	Runitai i put and update on the agenda that should make you and nyx happy
[12:02]	davep	yay!
[12:02]	Maxwell Graf	...HOLA!!...
[12:02]	davep	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group
[12:02]	davep	agenda link ^^
[12:03]	davep	once vir gets here we'll get started
[12:03]	Wolfpup	ok
[12:03]	Wolfpup	this might evben make vir smile
[12:04]	Asha	Hello all :)
[12:04]	Drongle McMahon	Hi Vir
[12:04]	Wolfpup	hey vir
[12:04]	Yuzuru	Hello Asha!
[12:04]	Yuzuru	I am awake
[12:04]	Asha	Asha waves to Yuzuru ^^
[12:04]	Asha	hehe
[12:04]	Asha	I'm barely awake.
[12:05]	davep	ok, here we go
[12:05]	davep	first item:
[12:05]	davep	SH-2374 (Rigged Mesh Deformer), Can you give us users, developers and creators any further information on internal ideas LL is considering for implementing your own fix for this issue? If so, can you tell us whether the options and/or prototypes you may be considering to internally develop solutions for this 1) involve utilizing Havok or other proprietary code; 2) if any LL solution is implemented now or in future can you assure TPV's and open source developers that LL solution will be available to them for use as open source code and 3) are your potential fixes for this server side, client side, or both? A little transparency and communication to users goes a long way. (Jusden Jonstone)
[12:05]	Vir Linden	Howdy all
[12:06]	Vir Linden	We are just starting to look into it, so it's too early to give technical details.
[12:06]	Motor Loon	http://www.indiegogo.com/Mesh-Clothing-Parametric-Deformer-Project
[12:07]	Vir Linden	We are looking for something open source in all likelihood.
[12:07]	davep	right now the only public JIRA related to the issue is https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SH-2324
[12:07]	Wolfpup	Open Source is a GOOD thing
[12:07]	Vir Linden	but that's the sort of decision that we would be making per-project, not something we can make a blanket policy statement on.
[12:08]	Jusden Jonstone	possibility of accepting or using community developers solution if it works
[12:08]	Vincent Nacon	I'm still wondering how would it work anyway? techincally side of it
[12:08]	Geenz Spad	there's a few ways it could work :>
[12:08]	Vincent Nacon	seem like it would be another nightmare in math
[12:09]	davep	whoops, that's not public yet
[12:09]	davep	too early to comment on the technical side
[12:09]	Siana Gearz	Vincent, they don't know yet either, they first grab up the dough and then they decide :)
[12:09]	davep	(haven't done the due dilligence yet to see if the approach will work)
[12:09]	davep	but we WILL be able to comment next week
[12:09]	Vir Linden	3) server-side code needed? Don't know yet.
[12:09]	Vincent Nacon	yeah but, honestly I don't think it would work at all without manual input for each one of these "deforms"
[12:10]	Vincent Nacon	I'm not agaisnt it, just don't see how it could work as automatic
[12:10]	Vincent Nacon	maybe displacement map?
[12:10]	Vincent Nacon	but it wouldn't be auto fit to the avatar's
[12:11]	davep	we can tell you that we're NOT looking into automatic rigging
[12:11]	Vincent Nacon	I just want to remind everyone here that asking for this sort of feature isn't just that simple
[12:11]	davep	the state-of-the-art in automatic rigging still requires artist intervention and is best left to the external tool
[12:11]	Geenz Spad	I guess in theory, you could do some sort of retargetting thing based upon the avatar's shape verticies :o
[12:11]	Wolfpup	actualy if you base the deformer map of of the default join/bone map then it should
[12:11]	Vincent Nacon	that made no sense, Wolf
[12:12]	Geenz Spad	but I imagine that could be problematic when you take into consideration of having many avatars in view
[12:12]	Vincent Nacon	aye, it's too much to ask for something as simple it may sound
[12:12]	Motor Loon	Probably not any worse than avatar physics
[12:12]	Geenz Spad	I'd beg to differ on that :>
[12:13]	Nadi Vemo	hello
[12:13]	Vincent Nacon	worst part is dealing with skin weight after deform (somehow) is sorted
[12:13]	Wolfpup	it is simple you take the default bone/joint map and use it as the basis for the deformation ie stretching bones and moving joints
[12:13]	Vincent Nacon	I'm sorry, I think it's a bad idea to focus on this sort of feature
[12:13]	Vincent Nacon	we need something else
[12:13]	davep	yeah, we can go deeper on this next week
[12:13]	Asha	What something else?
[12:14]	Vincent Nacon	that's the same problem
[12:14]	davep	for now we've got an agenda to get through
[12:14]	Vincent Nacon	sorry, go ahead
[12:14]	Wolfpup	that is what SeaWolf has dome for thier large dragons
[12:14]	davep	An ongoing issue of importance and priority all along has been on the stability of Mesh on main grid which I think most all users can agree is important. Can you give us a update on current or ongoing Mesh Server and Client side stability issues that are taking precedence over tackling additional mesh fixes or feature implementation? (Jusden Jonstone)
[12:15]	davep	Most of the issues we're aware of are viewer side
[12:15]	Vincent Nacon	and graphic card drivers
[12:15]	Vir Linden	And most of the work that's taking precedence is non-mesh (we just have a couple of bug fixes still in the pipeline)
[12:15]	Wolfpup	you mean the rendering system in the viewer right
[12:16]	davep	and fixing viewer side stability is a top priority -- there are many crash fixes going into the next release, and work continues on driver compatibility/render stability in a side branch
[12:16]	davep	the main blocker for render stability getting into release is compatibility with GTX 460 and intel 915/945
[12:16]	Vincent Nacon	even 11.2+ Catalyst for ATI/AMD issues?
[12:17]	davep	I'm not aware of any outstanding stability issues specific to AMD hardware
[12:17]	davep	(that is, that haven't been addressed by the compatibility work in https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SH-2240 )
[12:17]	davep	there ARE outstanding issues in release
[12:18]	davep	davep is running that build now and getting 35 fps with everything on.
[12:18]	Koli Contepomi	Koli Contepomi is also running that build.
[12:19]	Nebadon Izumi	what hardware davep?
[12:19]	davep	GTX 580
[12:19]	Wolfpup	i hope that work for my sustems when it coems in
[12:19]	Nebadon Izumi	ouch only 35?
[12:19]	Maxwell Graf	yay only crashed 20 times or so in a row.
[12:19]	davep	it's still got issues with NVIDIA 4xx series
[12:19]	Nebadon Izumi	hello Max
[12:19]	Koli Contepomi	I'm getting 22 with shadows off, but I'm CPU bound.
[12:19]	Nebadon Izumi	i tried TP'ing you a few times
[12:19]	Nebadon Izumi	i had trouble too
[12:19]	Maxwell Graf	insta crashy today
[12:20]	Blue Alloy	and I'm here on FS... the LL client won't even log in without dying horribly
[12:20]	Nebadon Izumi	35fps for a 580GTX seems terrible to me
[12:20]	Maxwell Graf	same
[12:20]	Maxwell Graf	memory pool is low. lol
[12:20]	davep	that's with anti-aliasing, shadows, water reflections
[12:20]	Nebadon Izumi	still sounds horrible
[12:20]	Wolfpup	im on viewer-development tip and got here just fine
[12:20]	Nebadon Izumi	580GTX is one of the fastest cards you can get?
[12:20]	Nebadon Izumi	is that the low end your aiming for with Frame rate?
[12:21]	Blue Alloy	I had 2 gig free... no way it should shit itself like that
[12:21]	Koli Contepomi	Fastest single GPU card from NVIDIA, currently.
[12:21]	davep	I can't say I'm proud of 35 fps as a target, but it IS an improvement over the current release viewer
[12:21]	Nebadon Izumi	ya i guess its not bad, but for that level of hardware, that doesnt sound great either though
[12:21]	Wolfpup	would love to see increased performance out of my linux laptop for the viewer
[12:22]	Nebadon Izumi	considering most modern games you would be getting 60fps or better with that hardware
[12:22]	davep	G[2011/10/10 I=z saus O
[12:22]	Maxwell Graf	id settle for any frame rate as long as i dont crash 20 times trying to log in.
[12:22]	davep	GPU-z says I'm at 40% GPU load
[12:22]	davep	so, cpu bound
[12:22]	Nebadon Izumi	what cpu?
[12:22]	Wolfpup	the main processor of the computer
[12:23]	Koli Contepomi	My GTX560 Ti is probably around the same.
[12:23]	Nebadon Izumi	know what cpu is he using
[12:23]	Nebadon Izumi	lol
[12:23]	Koli Contepomi	Since the fans are quiet.
[12:23]	Nebadon Izumi	y know what a cpu is
[12:23]	davep	AMD something or other
[12:23]	Wolfpup	Central Processing Unit
[12:23]	davep	ok, we should move on
[12:23]	davep	Due to other SL commitments, I shall be unable to attend further Mesh OH for the time being, The transcripts are not updated regularly, could the team please address this, so myself and other interested parties can remain a part of these proceedings? [2011/10/10 Graham Dartmouth]
[12:24]	Vir Linden	Charlie apologizes for that, resolves to do better...
[12:24]	Drongle McMahon	They are there now
[12:24]	davep	Mesh HQ 2 is down (as are 5 of the 8 old mesh beta regions still on the map). Where will the meeting be? (Drongle McMahon)
[12:24]	Calla Cela	The problem i find with viewer 2 is that it slows my poor computer to a crawl - just selecting a piece of my inventory can take 10 secnds or more. I cannot build using V2/v3
[12:25]	davep	from charlar: (agenda #4) mesh HQ regions will be back up after this usergroup and will remain as the meeting location. We're going to restart all of them with trunk.
[12:25]	davep	looks like there's some serious channel drift going on with the mesh regions and that will be cleaned up shortly
[12:25]	davep	The mesh-development build was stopped at the version of 3.0.6. But the version of beta viewer is 3.1.0. Which viewer should we test? davep_shining-fixes or snowstorm_viewer-development? [2011/10/10 Yuzuru Jewell]
[12:26]	Maxwell Graf	im afraid to look but did that auto prim spammer get deleted over behind us yet?
[12:26]	Vir Linden	mesh-dev builds haven't been stopped, but may be nothing new has gone in for a while.
[12:26]	Wolfpup	Runitai thgat might have been causer but the server kernal updates that have been going on the past week or so
[12:26]	davep	grab davep_shining-fixes if you want to test graphics issues
[12:27]	Drongle McMahon	Where are they?
[12:27]	Vir Linden	At this point mesh-dev only has a handful of fixes that aren't in viewer-dev.
[12:27]	Wolfpup	Wolfpup < has a more pressing project
[12:27]	Ever Student	Maxwell: Fewer prims spamming, but also the person there is back from away so presumably is on it.
[12:27]	Vir Linden	since most of the mesh work has merged down.
[12:29]	davep	davep_shining-fixes builds are linked to SH-2240 (see description)
[12:29]	davep	#6. The mesh-development build was stopped. With which viewer should I make the tutorial video about uploading by new dialog? Or till when should I wait? [2011/10/10 Yuzuru Jewell]
[12:29]	Vincent Nacon	doesn't support in 11.7 (and up) Catalyst though
[12:30]	Vir Linden	mesh-development hasn't been stopped intentionally - I'll take a look at it.
[12:30]	Vir Linden	but as above, there's not much new there.
[12:31]	davep	Vincent: what about 11.7 catalyst?
[12:31]	Yuzuru	Thank you, vir. I will wait for the update of mesh-project viewer.
[12:32]	davep	#7. OPEN-105 update [2011/10/10 Wolfpup Lowenhar]
[12:32]	Vir Linden	I think the only pending change for mesh-dev is to pull latest viewer-development changes, which may or may not be anything you care about from a mesh testing perspective.
[12:32]	Yuzuru	I want a mesh-project viewer based on 3.1.
[12:33]	Vir Linden	I'll get it updated today
[12:33]	Wolfpup	i guess it is trime for me to talk
[12:33]	Yuzuru	Thank you!
[12:34]	Wolfpup	i have made some progress on getting hacd into llconvexdecompostion as an Open Source version
[12:34]	Blue Alloy	...I'd settle for one that just doesn't crash immediately :¿
[12:35]	Wolfpup	yesterday i finaly got llconvexdecomposition converted to NOT useing static sln/make files and also fixed a build issue for the current building of the 'stub'
[12:35]	Motor Loon	convexdecomp. is that for mesh uploading on tpv's?
[12:35]	Wolfpup	it also builds 'outside' the source tree
[12:36]	Vincent Nacon	sorry, was distracted with few IMs. it's not supported. None of the viewers are supported in 11.7+
[12:36]	Wolfpup	yes it is motor and TPV'sd can not use the private lib
[12:36]	Vir Linden	Sounds encouraging
[12:36]	Nebadon Izumi	davep can I request that we revisit the SH-2374 topic before the end of the meeting
[12:36]	Nebadon Izumi	a few of us were not here when the meeting started
[12:36]	Nebadon Izumi	and missed a chance to talk about it
[12:36]	Motor Loon	indeed... most most annoying too
[12:36]	Wolfpup	Runitai you know how the stub will not build on windows right
[12:37]	Wolfpup	i founs and fix the issue localy but i have not published tit as yet
[12:38]	Vir Linden	We are fixing the llconvexdecomp build to also build stub.
[12:38]	Vir Linden	The separate stub build will be going away
[12:38]	Vir Linden	ie, there will be 2 builds, but only one repo behind them.
[12:38]	Geenz Spad	yay
[12:38]	Wolfpup	Vir i know and have been working on that for a wile now my self as im working on vgetting hacd incorperated as a Open Source version
[12:39]	Wolfpup	all my work is based off of the llconvexdecompostion lib repository
[12:39]	Vir Linden	OK
[12:39]	Maxwell Graf	while i realize you may not be able to offer an official opinion on the subject, could you offer a personal opinion on the mesh development project that I have initiated with Karl? We are over 60% of the way to funding it already, so looks like it will be going forward. How do you feel about this, whats your thoughts? any response will help.
[12:40]	Wolfpup	ther is already building on Tc 3p-hacd which will be built into the open source version of llconvexdecomposition
[12:40]	Maxwell Graf	we really are hoping you guys will take the code and use it when its done.
[12:41]	Nal	yeah... there is a lot of interest on that subject'
[12:41]	Nebadon Izumi	we saw in log before we go here you were hoping for an open source option
[12:41]	Vir Linden	There are a couple of aspects here. One is we are still discussing whether it makes sense to try to do something internally - see start of the meeting.
[12:41]	Maxwell Graf	yes.
[12:42]	Nebadon Izumi	wouldnt it make more sense though with the popularity of the TPV's to make something everyone could use? when you say internally would that require usage of any propritary Havok libraries?
[12:42]	Wolfpup	Vir when open-105 is finished llconvexdecompostion should not need to build the stub any more as there will be the private(havok based) and open(HACD based version of the lib
[12:42]	Vir Linden	If we get a request to incorporate code from an external project, we are certainly prepared to consider it, but can't commit without having seen the code.
[12:42]	Nebadon Izumi	ok thats fair
[12:43]	Nebadon Izumi	were pretty confident the code will be very high quality coming from Karl
[12:43]	Vir Linden	As we also mentioned at the start, an internal solution would probably not be based on proprietary havok libs, although we haven't ruled it out completely.
[12:44]	davep	at the end of the day, it's just like any other external project
[12:44]	Maxwell Graf	thank you for commenting. It was not started with the goal of going around you guys, but working in parallel, as we realize you have a pretty full plate. Not trying to work against you, but with you. :)
[12:44]	davep	we look at the value of the change, quality of the code, contributor agreements still apply, all that
[12:44]	Nebadon Izumi	sure, we really just wanted to know that you were atleast willing to give the code a chance
[12:44]	Vir Linden	Maxwell, We appreciate that :-)
[12:44]	Nebadon Izumi	that is very reassuring
[12:44]	davep	and if it's valuable and we can help out, we help out
[12:44]	Skygirl Kline	)
[12:44]	Maxwell Graf	karl did mention he would def be willing to sign agreements, btw.
[12:44]	Nebadon Izumi	awesome
[12:44]	Asha	That's good to hear.
[12:45]	Maxwell Graf	thanks you guys.
[12:45]	Jusden Jonstone	ty
[12:46]	davep	as for sticking to only open source solutions, the general policy still applies
[12:46]	Wolfpup	is there some one else also working on an open source verion of llconvedecomposition?
[12:46]	Blue Alloy	so... I've got a question, if we run out of agenda items...
[12:46]	davep	if there's a better technology that's not open source, we won't let the requirement of providing an open source viewer get in the way of integrating the best technology available
[12:46]	Vir Linden	Wolfpup, I haven't heard. Might want to catch Nyx next time.
[12:47]	Wolfpup	ok i guess i was reading the chat wrong
[12:47]	davep	we won't not use a good technology just because it's closed source, but we won't intentionally hamstring open source viewers with said technology
[12:48]	Wolfpup	i know i have been working on it for a while now
[12:48]	davep	i.e., with mesh, we were careful to make sure open source viewers could stream and view meshes
[12:48]	Siana Gearz	davep, that's very official and very nothing-promising :)
[12:48]	Jusden Jonstone	nods
[12:49]	Siana Gearz	davep, i'd say convex decomposition is a great example, cause... there was no good reason, from our (user, TPV dev) POV, to use a closed source lib in the first place.
[12:49]	Siana Gearz	ratcliff's lib has been around for ages.
[12:49]	davep	hacd didn't work as well as the havok lib
[12:49]	davep	in our testing
[12:49]	Geenz Spad	I can understand the reasoning (LL licenses Havok, Havok supports convex decomp generation, so therefore use Havok)
[12:49]	Wolfpup	Siana Gearz open-105 is for provieding an Open Source version of the lib
[12:49]	davep	it fell over for any model with more than a few thousand triangles
[12:50]	davep	same with qhull
[12:50]	Siana Gearz	i see, ok.
[12:50]	davep	we DID look at these libraries, havok's version was just better
[12:50]	Siana Gearz	>.< means we'll have to put some work into it...
[12:50]	Nebadon Izumi	that is not suprising
[12:50]	Nebadon Izumi	though Kirstens did a pretty good job
[12:51]	Nebadon Izumi	we did some pretty complex uploads with it
[12:51]	Nebadon Izumi	ah
[12:51]	Motor Loon	Havent had issues using Kirstens S21 here
[12:51]	Nebadon Izumi	i never got much into it
[12:51]	Wolfpup	and that is quite a few monts old
[12:52]	davep	anything else?
[12:52]	Blue Alloy	I have a quick question
[12:53]	Wolfpup	hope fuly we can get HACD working @ close to the same level as Havok
[12:53]	davep	Blue: ?
[12:53]	Vir Linden	Fire away.
[12:53]	Blue Alloy	what's ththe project Prep's mentioned in this thread:
[12:54]	davep	yeah, that's the not-public-but-public jira I linked to earlier
[12:54]	Vir Linden	possible approach to deformable clothing
[12:54]	Blue Alloy	ah
[12:54]	Blue Alloy	unfortunately, I missed the earlier parts of the meeting
[12:54]	davep	basically, if you look at the raycast display and you see those joints we use for avatar raycasts
[12:55]	davep	those are scaled based on some of the parametric avatar deformers
[12:55]	davep	and you can apparently weight your mesh to them if you want to, say, make the belly bigger
[12:55]	Blue Alloy	...those aren't the ones that show up when you do Show Collision Skeleton, are they?
[12:55]	davep	yeah, those are the ones
[12:55]	Blue Alloy	oh!
[12:55]	Blue Alloy	...I think I see
[12:56]	Blue Alloy	...this might lead to actual length recognition, then?
[12:56]	davep	er... scale, actually
[12:57]	davep	in theory weighting to those bones might let you make pants that auto-fit any avatar you put them on
[12:57]	Blue Alloy	where smaller mesh avs can fit into places they appear they should be able to?
[12:57]	Vir Linden	which is one of the things we're going to be investigating this week
[12:58]	Blue Alloy	and another (hopefully quick) dumb question: when using offset joints, where does the client put the camera for mouselook?
[12:58]	davep	and some sample content would go a LONG way to proving that hteory
[12:58]	davep	Blue: good question
[12:59]	Blue Alloy	is that base of mSkull?
[12:59]	davep	I believe it is
[12:59]	davep	davep looks
[12:59]	Blue Alloy	or between mEye*?
[13:00]	Wolfpup	i would think it should put it @ mNose as that would be centered between the eyes
[13:00]	Blue Alloy	(it's these kinds of questions that rarely get asked, but would be important for helping make mesh avatars much nicer)
[13:00]	Vir Linden	We're about out of time, and I have to run to another meeting. Thanks, everyone.
[13:01]	davep	yeah, I don't know
[13:01]	Nadi Vemo	Nadi Vemo waves
[13:01]	Blue Alloy	see ya
[13:01]	Skygirl Kline	byes
[13:01]	Ever Student	Bye
[13:01]	Jusden Jonstone	bye ty
[13:01]	Yuzuru	Thank you, Vir and Runitai.
[13:01]	Asha	Thanks for the meeting.
[13:01]	Blue Alloy	....but please, can we have an LL client that's not an insta-crasher?
[13:02]	Blue Alloy	I'd like to be able to upload more mesh... LOL!

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Mesh/Archive/2011-10-10

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Transcript for Monday October 10, 2011

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