User:Benjamin Linden/Office Hours/2008-10-23

Transcript of Rx's Office Hours:

[14:56]	Juko Tempel:	hello Malbers :-)
[14:56]	Juko Tempel:	lovely av
[14:56]	Malbers Linden:	hi juko
[14:56]	Charlette Proto:	hehe the chairs here are very bad
[14:56]	Juko Tempel:	may i take a pic?
[14:56]	Malbers Linden:	i never use chairs -- my jellyfish looks stupid sitting down
[14:56]	Charlette Proto:	I don't like the furnies if they don't look right when used
[14:57]	Charlette Proto:	hehe I'd like to see that Malbers
[14:57]	Malbers Linden:	juko, were you asking me? if so, of course! snap away.
[14:57]	Malbers Linden:	there is a crazy bunched up skinny brown avatar balled up inside of me
[14:57]	Juko Tempel:	cool :-)
[14:57]	Juko Tempel:	did you make it?
[14:57]	Malbers Linden:	he's easy to see when I sit down
[14:58]	Malbers Linden:	no, I bought him
[14:58]	Juko Tempel:	from Yoa Ogee maybe?
[14:58]	Juko Tempel:	he looks like Yoa's sort of thing..
[14:58]	Jacek Antonelli:	Malbers is eating an avatar? Is it a newbie?
[14:58]	Malbers Linden:	I can't remember. let me look......
[14:58]	Juko Tempel:	it's great anyway :-)
[14:58]	Juko Tempel:	Hi McCabe
[14:58]	Charlette Proto:	hehe noobs are the tasties
[14:59]	McCabe Maxsted:	ahoy!
[14:59]	Harvz Wilber:	fresh meat
[14:59]	Juko Tempel:	and Harvz and Mm
[14:59]	Malbers Linden:	Jackfield Raymaker
[14:59]	Juko Tempel:	aah
[14:59]	Malbers Linden:	was the creator
[14:59]	Juko Tempel:	thanks
[14:59]	Charlette Proto:	or do the noobs taste like chicken
[14:59]	Harvz Wilber:	howdy
[14:59]	Juko Tempel:	haha Charlette.. they would i think
[14:59]	Charlette Proto:	everything plain tastes like chicken
[14:59]	Juko Tempel:	indeed
[15:00]	Charlette Proto:	but what do chicken taste like?
[15:00]	Juko Tempel:	hi Squirrel
[15:00]	McCabe Maxsted:	human
[15:00]	Squirrel Wood:	Hello everyone ^^
[15:00]	McCabe Maxsted:	ahoy squirrel :)
[15:00]	Charlette Proto:	that would be right
[15:00]	Malbers Linden:	i'm gonna wait until a few minutes past to start up the discussion
[15:01]	McCabe Maxsted waves to aimee
[15:01]	Squirrel Wood:	cranberry flavoured chocolate.
[15:01]	Aimee Trescothick:	hey :)
[15:01]	Juko Tempel:	i thought this was Ben's office hour?
[15:01]	Harvz Wilber:	Bobcat Goldthwaite used to say "if it tastes just like chicken, just gimme some chicken. ite the cheapest meat there is"
[15:01]	Malbers Linden:	Juko, this is the Rx Office Hour
[15:01]	Aimee Trescothick:	wahey, I can get to my lmap quicker now without having to wait for people to rez :D
[15:01]	Juko Tempel:	aah
[15:01]	Malbers Linden:	Benjamin is one of the Rx team members
[15:02]	McCabe Maxsted suspects he's off painting the offices blue :)
[15:02]	Aimee Trescothick:	upped the scale on the minimap, so I can navigate between people by radar when I can't see them yet
[15:02]	Squirrel Wood:	battling pumpkins ?
[15:02]	Aimee Trescothick:	especially for here :D
[15:02]	McCabe Maxsted:	ooh, how deep does it go?
[15:02]	Squirrel Wood:	Be Aware Of http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-1728
[15:03]	Juko Tempel:	wiki page says "Open discussion of User Experience issues (usability, UI design, UI bugs, etc). "
[15:03]	Juko Tempel:	is that right?
[15:03]	McCabe Maxsted:	yarr
[15:03]	McCabe Maxsted:	you're in tehr ight place juko
[15:03]	Malbers Linden:	Yep
[15:03]	Aimee Trescothick:	well, on my minimap there's about 1cm between us right now lol
[15:03]	Juko Tempel:	ok cool
[15:03]	Charlette Proto:	Watch this Maya video on menus while we wait http://home.exetel.com.au/dataist/media/MayaMenu.mov
[15:04]	StarSong Bright:	ah there is soemthing here .. lol that took a while
[15:04]	Malbers Linden:	Once we start in a few minutes, we'll talk about the pie/radial menus
[15:04]	Jacek Antonelli:	Mmmmm.
[15:04]	Squirrel Wood:	that movie requires quicktime. I do not allow quicktime on my system. not even the alternative codec
[15:04]	McCabe Maxsted:	what's wrong with quicktime?
[15:04]	StarSong Bright:	oh boy do i have some things to say on those lol
[15:04]	Squirrel Wood:	resource hog
[15:05]	Charlette Proto:	that is odd, is it the security problem
[15:05]	Charlette Proto:	not much to the video if you've seen Maya
[15:05]	Geneko Nemeth:	... Gstreamer on Win32?
[15:06]	McCabe Maxsted:	ack, google chrome hates quicktime
[15:06]	Charlette Proto:	shall we start, I'll kick off
[15:06]	Malbers Linden:	Alright everyone. Let's get started.
[15:06]	Charlette Proto:	Since I tabled the pie menu topic for today (hehe) I'd like to start with a brief introduction before we discuss the subject.
[15:06]	Squirrel Wood:	May I direct everyone to https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-10062 for a quick vote? ^^
[15:06]	Malbers Linden:	I know that Charlette wanted to discuss pie menus
[15:07]	Malbers Linden:	Go Charlette
[15:07]	Charlette Proto:	we will all have a chance to chat, don't worry
[15:07]	Charlette Proto:	I assume you are all using chat history so I'll throw some slices at you (no food fights please).
	Pie menu (aka "radial" or "marking" menu) facts from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pie_menu
[15:07]	Charlette Proto:	ABOUT PIE MENUS
	A smooth, gestural interaction for novices and experts. (experts "mark" with gesture ahead of display)
	A slice can lead to another pie menu - mouse cursor at the centre of the new menu. Child may overlap (parent translucent or hidden) or replace the parent menu
	Often context-sensitive.
	Hole in the middle to exit the menu.
	Number of slices must be kept low.
	Delayed until the cursor stops to reduce intrusiveness like mouse gestures.
[15:07]	Charlette Proto:	WHY USE PIE
	Faster and more reliable because selection depends on direction instead of distance.
	Use muscle memory without looking at the menu. "The mind may forget, but the body remembers." (others say a higher cognitive load because of serial processing)
	Nested pie menus can offer many options including pop up linear menus.
	Visible when needed unlike toolbars and menu bars.
	Good for logically grouped functions, linear better for arbitrary lists.
[15:08]	Charlette Proto:	WHY NOT
	More screen real estate than linear menu.
	No standard widgets in popular user interface toolkits.
	Not all users are convinced (50/50 preference)
[15:08]	Charlette Proto:	just dumping some pie on you first
[15:08]	StarSong Bright:	i vote for that one! i always forget to set graphics down between spendign time in a nice wide open sim and then hopping into a shopping district.. it woudl be nice if the client was smart enough to compensate!
[15:09]	Charlette Proto:	anyone hve a problem with history, just stop me
[15:09]	Harvz Wilber:	I really like th epiue menu personally
[15:09]	Charlette Proto:	Don Hopkins - pioneer of pie menus provides examples including code.
	One Laptop Per Child, SimCity (building for dummies). ??? http://www.donhopkins.com/drupal/node/128
[15:09]	Malbers Linden:	That sounds about right for your prototypical pie menus
[15:09]	Geneko Nemeth:	I think it could use some icons though.
[15:09]	Charlette Proto:	Background paper on pie:
	"An Empirical Comparison of Pie vs. Linear Menus"
	Jack Callahan, Don Hopkins, Mark Weiser (*) and Ben Shneiderman.
	Presented at ACM CHI'88 Conference, Washington DC, 1988. ??? http://www.donhopkins.com/drupal/node/100
[15:10]	Charlette Proto:	look at some of the above webpages but Maya may be a more interesting example (to come)
[15:10]	Harvz Wilber:	Many of the console games i used to play used pie menus. and at first it made SL more comfortable
[15:10]	Charlette Proto:	MAYA Hotbox is a variation of a pie menu.
[15:11]	Charlette Proto:	Video on Maya menus - 1 minute, last quarter is most relevant.
	(I will have to delete it so save to keep as reference) ??? http://home.exetel.com.au/dataist/media/MayaMenu.mov
[15:11]	StarSong Bright:	here are some real issues with our pies though, like if you try to get someones profile and they are near the edge of the screen you end up offering them friendship or when you right clcik yoruself and go to take off the default thing chosen is detach all.. its really easy to end up hair and shoeless in the middle of who know where!
[15:11]	Harvz Wilber:	BTW i vote yes on the adjsuting graphis on the fly thing
[15:11]	Charlette Proto:	yes I know
[15:11]	Chaos Mohr:	I love the pie menu's with the exception of the things that shouldn't be in them
[15:12]	Harvz Wilber:	when that happens its easy enough to delet the unwanted friend tho
[15:12]	Charlette Proto:	pie is great for complex systems with many items
[15:12]	Charlette Proto:	Paper:
	"The Hotbox:	Efficient Access to a Large Number of Menu-items"
	Gordon Kurtenbach CHI99, copyright Alias|Wavefront 1999. ??? http://www.dgp.toronto.edu/~gordo/papers/CHI99_Hotbox.pdf
[15:12]	Charlette Proto:	‚ÄúHotbox‚Äù combines several GUI techniques which are generally used independently: accelerator keys, modal dialogs, pop-up/pull down menus, radial menus, marking menus and menubars. It started with 1200 menu items.
[15:12]	Charlette Proto:	the papers are just for reference not to read now
[15:13]	Charlette Proto:	Working in Maya - marking menu examples ??? http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/info/maya/manual/UserGuide/Overview/WorkingMaya.fm.html
[15:13]	Harvz Wilber:	perhaps if the pie were customisable?
[15:13]	Charlette Proto:	the above is worth looking at
[15:13]	Charlette Proto:	Working in Maya - creating and editing marking menus ??? http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/info/maya/manual/UserGuide/Overview/ShelvesMarkingMenus.fm.html#245751
[15:15]	Charlette Proto:	and this: Menu and display elements in Maya, "A Taste of Maya" ??? http://www.blackorb.com/3dtutorials/fund.pdf
[15:15]	Charlette Proto:	most of this just in case you don't know Maya and how many things they have mixed up together
[15:16]	Charlette Proto:	I think it is a good example not just because it is a 3D app but because people use it in different ways like SL
[15:18]	Jacek Antonelli:	Did you have an idea for improving pie menus in SL?
[15:18]	Charlette Proto:	does anyone agree that the pie could improve many aspects like building and editing in SL?
[15:18]	Charlette Proto:	I'd put all the editing attributes in it
[15:19]	StarSong Bright:	which ones charlette?
[15:19]	Mm Alder:	I like the idea of customizable pie menus
[15:19]	Chaos Mohr:	I think the pie menu's have definitely things they could help improve, however there is a Huge difference in pie menus in an 'application' that call dialogs or tools withing the application, and pie menus that require database information to be active
[15:19]	Charlette Proto:	so the tabbed floater functions could be reached with a couple of clicks
[15:19]	Harvz Wilber:	yes on building
[15:20]	StarSong Bright:	whats wrong with the edit window?
[15:20]	Charlette Proto:	at the moment there is so many clicks to chnge anthing and the floater has to be moved all the time
[15:20]	Juko Tempel:	is it so different to tabs though? still not many click.. although i haven't had a chance to look at all the pie stuff yet..
[15:20]	McCabe Maxsted:	you mean like resize
[15:20]	McCabe Maxsted:	and link/unlink in the pie menu
[15:20]	Harvz Wilber:	nothings wrong withthe build window. but the option would be nice
[15:21]	McCabe Maxsted:	(which works btw if anyone wants to throw 'em in there :)
[15:21]	Charlette Proto:	the sdit window also requires a lot of dexterity unlike pie menus
[15:21]	Juko Tempel:	really?
[15:21]	StarSong Bright:	oh my i have to say i dont agree at all ... no for me anyways
[15:21]	Juko Tempel:	me neither
[15:21]	Charlette Proto:	pie menu is easy to become fast at
[15:21]	McCabe Maxsted:	(most anything in menu_viewer.xml can be moved around into a pie menu, just a fun tweaking tidbit)
[15:21]	Juko Tempel:	and Chaos' point about active info?
[15:22]	Mm Alder:	I like that pie menus are context sensitive.
[15:22]	StarSong Bright:	nods
[15:22]	Chaos Mohr:	it is a lot easier to make a mistake in a pie menu than in an edit window, so things in a pie menu have to be carefully planned as to the effect they have if accidentally selected
[15:22]	Mm Alder:	McCabe: Where do you move it to?
[15:22]	Charlette Proto:	most pie menus are context dependent look at the Maya examples
[15:22]	Juko Tempel:	especially when you're new..
[15:23]	McCabe Maxsted:	(any of the other menu files menu_pie_self.xml is the pie menu for right clicking yourself, for example)
[15:23]	StarSong Bright:	i totally agree chaos
[15:23]	Charlette Proto:	no way pie is a direction only based selection, less mistakes that distance and direction
[15:24]	Juko Tempel:	but doesn't that make it easier to make a mistake? just by moving?
[15:24]	Juko Tempel:	especially with lag?
[15:24]	Charlette Proto:	not in my opinion
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli:	Can you give some examples of how a pie menu might be used for editing objects, Charlette?
[15:24]	StarSong Bright:	the example of tyring to see someones profile near the edge ofyour scren and offering friendship.. shows me that pies are to be .. well not avoided but.. they can be dangerous
[15:25]	Charlette Proto:	you select edit and get a child menu (like the tabs) then the attributes you can change
[15:25]	McCabe Maxsted:	(starsong: have you votedo on https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-6879 ?)
[15:26]	Charlette Proto:	so you edit in context of objects in the world with just a few gestures
[15:26]	Chaos Mohr:	I can't tell you how many times I have run into newbies that have mistakenly muted someone when trying to look at a profile
[15:26]	StarSong Bright:	(heh, did now, thats been one of my pet peeves forever)
[15:26]	StarSong Bright:	YES! grrrr
[15:26]	Jacek Antonelli:	Charlette: So, a menu comes up with "Object", "Features", etc., then say you select Object, it would have "Path Cut", "Hollow", etc.? What would happen when you click on one of those?
[15:27]	StarSong Bright:	frankly it would be better if things like mute could only be done from profile. would save a lot of hassles
[15:27]	Charlette Proto:	well the research shows that new users go slower and experts can reach very fast speeds both benefiting from less mistakes
[15:27]	Juko Tempel:	child menus seem kind of deep to me.. and hidden?
[15:27]	StarSong Bright:	nods to juko
[15:28]	Charlette Proto:	dropdown linear manus are mouch more precission based
[15:28]	Juko Tempel:	i guess sub menus can seem hidden to.. but you can indicate that they are there.. would the pie do that?
[15:28]	Juko Tempel:	>>
[15:28]	Juko Tempel:	for example
[15:28]	Charlette Proto:	our current layers in the pie are probably the oldest and poorest version of the pie
[15:29]	Aimee Trescothick:	nothing worse than a stale pie
[15:29]	Juko Tempel:	lol
[15:29]	Charlette Proto:	you can have indication of child items on the outside ot the pie ring
[15:29]	StarSong Bright:	grins
[15:29]	Juko Tempel:	ok
[15:29]	Malbers Linden:	part of the issue we are talking around is that SL's version of pie menus are pretty poor design-wise
[15:30]	Juko Tempel:	Malbers.. where is LL on this..
[15:30]	Juko Tempel:	haha read my mind
[15:30]	Malbers Linden:	simply a better design/implementation might go a long way
[15:30]	StarSong Bright:	I would like to see a complete redesign of ALL of the sl menus, not just the pies... it simply isnt intuitive for noobs
[15:30]	Charlette Proto:	hehe the pie we have is not worth having because it doesnt fit the rest but a good pie would make a godd alternative to work faster with
[15:30]	Squirrel Wood:	I believe that the number of clicks required to get something done should be limited. To, say, three clicks at most.
[15:30]	Aimee Trescothick:	could use something like coverflow with a faint image of the next menu behind that the moves to centre when selected
[15:31]	Juko Tempel:	as long as new people can find things too..
[15:31]	McCabe Maxsted:	malbers: what would you hypothetically say a better pie menu would do/look like?
[15:31]	Charlette Proto:	pie menu can work without clicks too and many do
[15:31]	Malbers Linden:	SL's pie menus are non-standard compared to the heirarchical/nested pie menus I've seen in the literature
[15:31]	Malbers Linden:	SL menus do not do the nesting/heirarchy "correctly"
[15:32]	Charlette Proto:	it would be hierarchical with overlapping child menus
[15:32]	Juko Tempel:	without clicks sound dangerous? easy to make mistakes?
[15:32]	Malbers Linden:	Heirarchical w/ overlapping child menus allows the user to go back up in the heirarchy without making a selection
[15:32]	Charlette Proto:	not to navigate the menu, you click to execute
[15:32]	Harvz Wilber:	yes need clicks and the "are you sure" popups for big decisions
[15:33]	StarSong Bright fears she is a ludite, i detest those menus to much going on, too easy to make a blunder
[15:33]	Charlette Proto:	you navigate the pie to open children without clicks but click to execute
[15:33]	Malbers Linden:	menu interactions with pie menus are as complicated as they are with normal menus
[15:33]	Juko Tempel:	i know lots of SL users are tech savvy.. but not all.. it's not an application..
[15:33]	McCabe Maxsted nods. that's always bugged me abou the pie menus myself (https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1658 for a back option)
[15:34]	Charlette Proto:	but they require a lot less dexterity and can be done with gestures
[15:34]	Charlette Proto:	in the future gestures will be more important than the mouse
[15:34]	Juko Tempel:	but that's tricky.. ok if you're savvy but not if you get dismayed by actions you don't know you did
[15:34]	StarSong Bright considers the gesture that might lead to mute, chuckles
[15:34]	Aimee Trescothick doesn't use a mouse lol
[15:35]	Jacek Antonelli:	Maybe I'm just dense today, but I don't see how pie menus are applicable to editing object attributes. :\
[15:35]	Juko Tempel:	still not sure i see the dexterity argument..
[15:35]	Malbers Linden:	There is academic researhc that shows pies are better for gestural actions (like using a stylus)
[15:35]	Malbers Linden:	but mice are going to be around a long time
[15:35]	Juko Tempel:	did you see the maya videos Jacek?
[15:35]	Charlette Proto:	touch pad is also much better for pie that linear menu
[15:35]	Charlette Proto:	joystick too
[15:36]	StarSong Bright:	i hate that i can accidentally take and or delete things.. and there is no undo to that. well dragging from trash, but not if its, say a script inside an object - THAT doesnt go to trash to be retreived
[15:36]	Malbers Linden:	true -- touch pad and joystick
[15:36]	Charlette Proto:	dexterity argument is about distance being replaced by direction
[15:36]	McCabe Maxsted:	so how would you go about putting that in sl?
[15:36]	Mm Alder:	I don't see it as a linear v. pie issue. You can have more than one way of doing the same thing.
[15:37]	Juko Tempel:	which is how the pie is offered now.. with options that are in the menus..
[15:37]	Charlette Proto:	from my experience all edit functions beside numerical entry would be better in a pie
[15:37]	Juko Tempel:	yes?
[15:37]	Chaos Mohr:	I agree Mm, the ability to have choices is important - in reality, speed wise nothing beats key combo's for the old command prompt geeks ;)
[15:37]	StarSong Bright:	heres a good one, dropping somethign you meant to detach, and losing it. that is how pies are dangerous
[15:37]	McCabe Maxsted:	so a pie option to bring up all the functions in the tools window, or to bring up a specific tab
[15:38]	Charlette Proto:	no way try key comos for the number of functions we have
[15:38]	Charlette Proto:	what using three keys
[15:38]	McCabe Maxsted could see the benefit of say having an "edit" pie for objects that collects the most useful ones
[15:38]	Mm Alder:	The key combos should also be customizable.
[15:38]	Charlette Proto:	Maya started with 1200 items in the menu
[15:38]	Harvz Wilber:	I mostly use the build window for the numeric values
[15:38]	Juko Tempel:	so right click and we would get edit.. and then child menus..
[15:38]	Harvz Wilber:	and percision editing
[15:38]	Malbers Linden:	I think we are also conflating two issues pie vs. linear AND the current placement of items within the pie menus is (say) suboptimal
[15:38]	McCabe Maxsted:	the viewer already has way too many shortcuts, imho
[15:39]	Juko Tempel:	true Malbers
[15:39]	Aimee Trescothick uses the build window for maths :)
[15:39]	Malbers Linden:	redoing the current pie menus has value
[15:39]	Harvz Wilber:	I prefer more shortcuts
[15:39]	Charlette Proto:	the pie in Maya pops numerical entry boxes (mixed as need be)
[15:39]	Harvz Wilber:	mutiple methods make for ease of use
[15:39]	McCabe Maxsted:	are there any contextual situations right now that don't have pie menus, that should?
[15:39]	Charlette Proto:	shortcuts suit the pie too
[15:39]	StarSong Bright:	well malbers, they are related, wouldnt you say?
[15:39]	Malbers Linden:	Yes, I worry about keyboard interactions and pie menus -- I'm sure there is an approach -- just on't remember it
[15:40]	Squirrel Wood:	pie and linear menus are essentially the same. Just rendered differently
[15:40]	Mm Alder:	Malbers, how difficult would it be to provide customization of the pies?
[15:40]	Juko Tempel:	they would need the same hierarchy..
[15:40]	Charlette Proto:	the attributes should be added instead of opening the build box for strters
[15:40]	Juko Tempel:	if they were alternatives to each other
[15:40]	McCabe Maxsted:	ahoy kippie!
[15:40]	Malbers Linden:	McCabe posted some info earlier about hacking the pie menus as you want to
[15:40]	Charlette Proto:	same hierarchy as the edit box
[15:40]	Juko Tempel:	yes
[15:41]	Mm Alder:	Malbers, that's why I ask. If it's easy to hack, it should be easy to implement without hacking.
[15:41]	McCabe Maxsted:	heck I put a tut up: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Skinning_How_To/Edit_a_menu
[15:41]	jackclown Aristocrat:	...
[15:41]	Charlette Proto:	maybe I'm alone on this but I'm sure Maya users would understand what I'm on about
[15:41]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hey Kippie :D
[15:42]	Malbers Linden:	McCabe, does SL expose how to handle the dynamic/contextual nature of the pie menus?
[15:42]	Juko Tempel:	its very interesting Charlette.. a lot to think about
[15:42]	Kippie Friedkin:	Hey everybody..sorry I'm late. Ferret escaped..lol
[15:42]	Aimee Trescothick:	best excuse EVER
[15:42]	Charlette Proto:	I may try to hack a pie myself
[15:42]	Kippie Friedkin:	hehe
[15:42]	Aimee Trescothick:	lol
[15:42]	Juko Tempel:	haha
[15:42]	McCabe Maxsted:	in a sense; different contexts have different menu files
[15:43]	Juko Tempel:	although i'm not sure Maya has a reputation for being easy to learn? or am i wrong?
[15:43]	StarSong Bright laughs
[15:43]	Geneko Nemeth:	Try blender!
[15:43]	Charlette Proto:	my main point is that it should be extended for those peeps who can benefit from having more in the pie
[15:43]	Geneko Nemeth:	*B
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli:	I've used Maya, but I still don't see how you would edit an object with it. How would you change Path Cut or change color from a pie menu? :S
[15:43]	McCabe Maxsted is curious if there'd be interest in other contexts, like right clicking on the toolbar and getting a pie menu for ui options
[15:43]	McCabe Maxsted:	or right clicking the map and getting a pie menu
[15:43]	JoseCarlos Rajal:	stand up please
[15:44]	Charlette Proto:	precisely maya has thousands of things but peeps animate after just a few days
[15:44]	Mm Alder:	McCabe: Yes, context sensitive is quite intuitive.
[15:44]	Charlette Proto:	currently we have very little context sensitive controls
[15:45]	Juko Tempel:	have you got an example in those Maya links to show Jacek, Charlette?
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli:	It seems to me that menus are for initiating commands, and perhaps for toggling options on/off. But more sophisticated interaction than that (like editing numbers or using a slider) doesn't seem to fit well with a menu.
[15:45]	Aimee Trescothick:	when I'm editing a single parameter I usually want to be able to read the others at the same time
[15:45]	Aimee Trescothick:	or edit several at once
[15:45]	Charlette Proto:	pie can also have include parameter entry like a clock
[15:46]	McCabe Maxsted nods, especially when you have to keep it open; you'd have to have a draggable pie menu then to build, go back and forth a lot of times
[15:46]	Charlette Proto:	like iPod entry and selection
[15:46]	Malbers Linden:	Going theoretical -- From a UI design POV, SL does a poor job of using a noun->verb interaction style vs. a verb->noun style
[15:46]	Chaos Mohr:	I think that perhaps advanced pie menu's, as Charlette says "extended for those peeps who can benefit from them" should perhaps be something that can be toggled via the advanced menu - while at the same time an overall re-design of the current ones for making more sense would be a good approach
[15:46]	Aimee Trescothick:	that restricts how you group things though
[15:47]	Harvz Wilber:	sometimes whei u change one rotation axis, the other 2 change by themselves adn the thing spins the wrong way
[15:47]	Juko Tempel:	example please Malbers?
[15:47]	McCabe Maxsted:	oooh, yes, I've always wondered about that
[15:47]	Charlette Proto:	current pie is too poor to excuse having it at all
[15:48]	Malbers Linden:	Juko, the idea is.... do you select an object (noun) and then act on it (verb) OR select an action (verb) and then select the target (noun)
[15:48]	Juko Tempel:	i agree with Chaos.. i can see the potential for better pies than we have now...
[15:48]	Juko Tempel:	aah ok.. thinking about that
[15:48]	Harvz Wilber:	i thimk noun then verb
[15:49]	Mm Alder:	Harvz, depends on how you think.
[15:49]	Malbers Linden:	areas like "Snapshot" present interesting challenges for noun->verb
[15:49]	Charlette Proto:	a man hit a boy with a stick (english is very poor)
[15:49]	Harvz Wilber:	im just sayin the way I think
[15:49]	Charlette Proto:	does the boy have a stick or the man
[15:49]	Malbers Linden:	most Building style work is clearly noun->verb
[15:50]	Juko Tempel:	yes..
[15:50]	Harvz Wilber:	not that its correct or common
[15:50]	McCabe Maxsted thinks there should be a wiki page with some naming guidelines set up. What does the research say on which one people respond to more, do you know?
[15:50]	Charlette Proto:	look at maya for a well thought through example
[15:50]	Mm Alder:	McCabe, it doesn't matter if both options exist.
[15:50]	Juko Tempel:	it's the complexity that's off putting though Charlette..
[15:50]	Charlette Proto:	more than SL and most you never have to be aware of unless you want to use it
[15:50]	Malbers Linden:	since you generally select an object to get a pie menu, they lend themselves to the noun-verb style
[15:51]	Juko Tempel waves to Simon
[15:51]	Kippie Friedkin:	Does that work when building...that seems more verb to noun
[15:51]	Simon Kline waves back.. hi all :D
[15:51]	Charlette Proto:	that is true malbers
[15:52]	Charlette Proto:	I still think it is worth to have a look at some of the posibilities
[15:52]	Charlette Proto:	even just the few examples i gave before
[15:53]	Mm Alder:	Charlette, what do you think would be a good first step? Or does it need a complete redesign?
[15:54]	Charlette Proto:	attribute editing from the pie
[15:54]	Charlette Proto:	rather that poping the edit box and having to select the right tab and then the parameter
[15:54]	Mm Alder:	That's not obvious to me. How does Maya do it?
[15:54]	Aimee Trescothick:	hmm, from what I remember of Maya it uses palettes for that
[15:55]	Malbers Linden is going to be the mean meeting organizer and end the meeting in a couple minutes...
[15:55]	Aimee Trescothick:	http://www.9jcg.com/tutorials/bogdan_amidzic/using_sun_sky_with_maya_mental_ray/using_sun_and_sky_in_mental_ray_with_maya_06.jpg
[15:55]	Charlette Proto:	and closing the edit after changing just one thing
[15:55]	StarSong Bright:	personally i think palatte windows are the way to go rather htan the pies - esp for things like building
[15:55]	Charlette Proto:	pops a small dialog to edit value
[15:56]	Charlette Proto:	or a slider if that is appropriate
[15:56]	Charlette Proto:	the mose practically stays at the point of selection
[15:56]	Mm Alder:	So the pie just gives you the context?
[15:56]	Charlette Proto:	very little dexterity in pointing to items
[15:56]	Charlette Proto:	yes
[15:56]	Aimee Trescothick:	if there were direct manipulation tools for things like cut it would make more sense having tool selection in the pie
[15:57]	Charlette Proto:	it pulls the same thing you would reach from the main menu
[15:57]	Charlette Proto:	just don't have to reach to the top or the edit box
[15:57]	Malbers Linden:	Alright. This has been very interesting. It would be great to see some people hack at the pie menus using McCabe's tutorial.
[15:57]	Malbers Linden:	Any thoughts about topics for next week?
[15:57]	McCabe Maxsted:	if you find anything ogood opst it on teh jira
[15:57]	McCabe Maxsted already has three pie menu patches on there, hehe
[15:57]	Mm Alder:	Yes, thanks McCabe for that pointer.
[15:57]	Charlette Proto:	you just change directions like selecting songs on the iPod
[15:58]	Mm Alder:	...and thanks Charlette for lots of ideas.
[15:58]	Juko Tempel:	fascinating stuff
[15:58]	Charlette Proto:	no need to be precise with pie
[15:58]	Malbers Linden:	Yes, that's for leading the charge on this topic Charlette
[15:58]	Mm Alder:	I see lots of possibilities.
[15:58]	Jacek Antonelli:	Thanks Charlette
[15:58]	Juko Tempel:	remember some users need precision..
[15:58]	Malbers Linden:	that is -- thanks, Charlette
[15:59]	Juko Tempel:	thanks Malbers too
[15:59]	Charlette Proto:	I hope i raised some points to think about
[15:59]	Malbers Linden:	Defineitely
[15:59]	Squirrel Wood:	^^
[15:59]	Malbers Linden:	so many tradeoffs...
[15:59]	Squirrel Wood:	the pie must contain nuts. :p
[15:59]	Harvz Wilber:	definite fuel for thought
[15:59]	Juko Tempel:	pumpkin pie?
[15:59]	Malbers Linden:	no ideas for next week? (out side of "more nuts")
[15:59]	Harvz Wilber:	and blueberries
[15:59]	Aimee Trescothick wants a cake menu
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli gives Squirrel a pecan pie
[15:59]	Squirrel Wood:	^^
[16:00]	Squirrel Wood:	ideas... lots of ideas ^^
[16:00]	Charlette Proto:	Maya has thousands of functions starting with just a few opions in the hotbox
[16:00]	Harvz Wilber:	with vanilla ice cream and whip creme
[16:00]	Charlette Proto:	hehe i want some hot pie too
[16:00]	StarSong Bright:	I would like to talk about the tool bar and menus in general
[16:00]	Squirrel Wood:	What about HUDs for new players? (knowledge base & stuff) ?
[16:00]	Harvz Wilber:	i got a class to teach. gotta run. thanks al
[16:01]	Harvz Wilber:	all
[16:01]	Malbers Linden:	Squirrel, what do you mean? example?
[16:01]	Charlette Proto:	thanks everyone
[16:01]	Juko Tempel:	thanks Charlette
[16:01]	Squirrel Wood:	well, these could contain landmarks, tutorials, etc
[16:02]	Squirrel Wood:	maps
[16:02]	Malbers Linden:	so, maybe a discussion of the best uses (old and new) for HUDs?
[16:02]	Kippie Friedkin:	Sounds good!
[16:02]	Squirrel Wood:	I believe that could work :)
[16:02]	Charlette Proto:	I did a pie based prototype for the Wii Remote and it worked very easily and it can be used with dataglove and joysticks
[16:02]	Malbers Linden is clearly not an expert on HUDs. will be interesting to be here.
[16:03]	Jacek Antonelli:	Gotta run. Take care all!
[16:03]	Aimee Trescothick:	bye
[16:03]	Malbers Linden:	Cool! We have a topic for next week. Everyone think about HUDs.
[16:03]	Aimee Trescothick waves
[16:03]	Squirrel Wood:	there is much potential
[16:03]	Kippie Friedkin:	Me too. Now that ferret is caught...I'm on clean up duty!
[16:03]	Aimee Trescothick:	LOL
[16:03]	Kippie Friedkin:	:)
[16:03]	Charlette Proto:	HUD for noobs sounds very good because they don't know what to ask
[16:03]	Kippie Friedkin:	Cheers, all!
[16:03]	Squirrel Wood:	text parsing hud
[16:04]	Charlette Proto:	they all ask, what do I do here?
[16:04]	Squirrel Wood:	with help topics on keywords
[16:04]	Malbers Linden:	Thanks all. Gotta run.
[16:04]	Squirrel Wood:	slide shows, ...
[16:04]	Squirrel Wood:	^^
[16:04]	Charlette Proto:	bye Malbers
[16:04]	Squirrel Wood:	have a great day!