User:Enkidu Linden/Office Hours/2011-01-27

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List of Attendees

Transcript

[11:03] Enkidu Linden: hi eddi
[11:05] Eddi Decosta: hi Enki ㋡
[11:06] Eddi Decosta: how are you? ㋡
[11:06] Enkidu Linden: i am well
[11:06] Enkidu Linden: and yourself?
[11:06] Eddi Decosta: im ok for the moment ㋡
[11:06] Eddi Decosta: hi cummere ㋡
[11:06] Cummere Mayo: yay youre here!
[11:07] Enkidu Linden: hey cummere, how are you?
[11:07] Cummere Mayo: hey eddi
[11:07] Eddi Decosta: oh enki , thanks for the web login fixes ㋡
[11:07] Cummere Mayo: tbh really p[issed with LL right now
[11:07] Cummere Mayo: probably going to court
[11:08] Enkidu Linden: to which fixes are you referring, eddi?
[11:08] Eddi Decosta: the login name in one case ㋡
[11:08] Eddi Decosta: its better like that ㋡
[11:09] Enkidu Linden: i don't think i fixed that but i'll pass it on to my team
[11:09] Enkidu Linden: thanks for noticing!
[11:09] Eddi Decosta: your welcome ㋡
[11:10] Eddi Decosta: oh Loane said you hello to ㋡
[11:10] Enkidu Linden: cool
[11:11] Enkidu Linden: nope
[11:11] Cummere Mayo: darn
[11:11] Cummere Mayo: dont suppose you could get one of them to actually show up if i promise not to lynch them?
[11:11] Eddi Decosta: aww, my viewer know some freez when i move ㋡
[11:12] Enkidu Linden: let me see
[11:14] Cummere Mayo: yeah snowstorm knows about the viewer freezes eddi. supposedly some other team is looking into them
[11:14] Eddi Decosta: ok Cummere ㋡
[11:14] Enkidu Linden: ok
[11:14] Eddi Decosta: thanks, cause i bet in the alpha loading ㋡
[11:15] Enkidu Linden: actually, it turns out social will be having User Group meetings soon
[11:15] Cummere Mayo: when is "soon"?
[11:15] Cummere Mayo: becuase people like myself want answers from them "now"
[11:15] Enkidu Linden: don't know yet
[11:16] Cummere Mayo: please relay "soon" doesnt cut it
[11:17] Cummere Mayo: the only reason you as part of the web team dont have a lynchmob enki is cuase youre not part of them
[11:17] Enkidu Linden: aw
[11:17] Enkidu Linden: nobody gets fired up about authentication
[11:18] Cummere Mayo: meh only the peple banned no longer able to fle support tickets becuase guest tickets are behind a login ^^
[11:18] Cummere Mayo: but thats totally differant
[11:18] Eddi Decosta: yeah i have noticed that for some reason ㋡
[11:19] Enkidu Linden: hmm, i wasn't really aware of that
[11:19] Eddi Decosta: and honestly , the phone support for this section is very poor
[11:19] Cummere Mayo: people would like to know why world.secondlife and my.secondlife profiles were made public without notice to the community and why LL is putting the like and twitter widgets on everyones profile without asking our permission
[11:19] Cummere Mayo: which actually is illegal in europe
[11:19] Eddi Decosta: he take theresident like a big head
[11:20] Cummere Mayo: here in the states its also got legal issues but mainly jsut really pisses allot of us off
[11:20] Cummere Mayo: and social wont talk to anyone
[11:21] Cummere Mayo: so i would like an official answer from them why they thought breaching our privacy was okay and why they put known trackers on our profiles
[11:22] Enkidu Linden: i can point them to this transcript when i post it
[11:22] Cummere Mayo: and becuase my secondlife profiles are now all searchable on facebook becuase of LL I'm ready to make it VERY costly to LL
[11:23] Enkidu Linden: like i said, they will be starting public communication, but they haven't scheduled it yet to my knowledge
[11:23] Cummere Mayo: tell them tomarrow would be a GREAT day to start
[11:23] Eddi Decosta: hi Praveen ㋡
[11:23] Praveen Linden: hey hey guys, how you doing?
[11:23] Sniper Siemens: hello Praven
[11:24] Enkidu Linden: hey guys
[11:24] Eddi Decosta: i'm ok i think i can restart my envolvement ㋡
[11:24] Cummere Mayo: I want an apology from social , and those widgets off my profile
[11:24] Eddi Decosta: sorry my typos, im french native, and i dont have my coffee ㋡
[11:25] Cummere Mayo: as well as LL's assitance getting my profile off of google and facebook's indexing and caching
[11:25] Eddi Decosta: Hi Ladan:)
[11:25] Ladan Linden: HI Eddi :-)
[11:25] Cummere Mayo: hello ladan
[11:25] Cummere Mayo: you part of the web or social teams?
[11:25] Eddi Decosta: hello sniper ㋡
[11:25] Ladan Linden: Hi Cummere
[11:25] Enkidu Linden: praveen and ladan both work with me on the auth team
[11:25] Eddi Decosta: long time no see since yesterday* lol
[11:25] Ladan Linden: I am part of web team :-)
[11:26] Sniper Siemens: hello eddi -)
[11:26] Eddi Decosta: ok ladan ㋡
[11:26] Eddi Decosta: well, question about this web profile ..
[11:26] Cummere Mayo: im not usually this hostile ladan and praveen, but your coworkes have really upset me and many others
[11:26] Eddi Decosta: for the opensource do you know if, the web profile could cause somne trouble on the other grid or not?
[11:26] Praveen Linden: what is the issue cummere?
[11:27] Praveen Linden: sorry to make you retype
[11:27] Cummere Mayo: and my sl profile was put into facebooks system by those widgets that i cannot remove
[11:27] Ladan Linden: ah!
[11:27] Cummere Mayo: and i was never ever given notice my profiles (new or old) would be public
[11:27] Praveen Linden: ah and attached to your identity
[11:27] Cummere Mayo: yes
[11:28] Praveen Linden: stupid overly aggressive facebook widgets
[11:28] Cummere Mayo: some facebook apps tried to actually link them to my facebook accounts but fortuneately i prevented that
[11:28] SignpostMarv Martin: so, I have a quick question about the web profiles
[11:28] Cummere Mayo: but over a thousand sl world.secondlife and my.secondlife profiles are directly searchable
[11:28] Eddi Decosta: Cummere, i dont like facebook.. you know i said that .. sl is sl and facebook is facebook ㋡
[11:28] Enkidu Linden: hey signpostmarv
[11:29] SignpostMarv Martin: Enkidu: can you start using semantic HTML and give us some hCard/hResume goodness ?
[11:29] Cummere Mayo: https://jira.secondlife.com/secure/attachment/47515/what+happens+if+your+sl+profile+gets+liked....JPG
[11:29] Cummere Mayo: theres proof
[11:29] Eddi Decosta: i have my profile eddi decosta on facebook, but its for some reason ㋡
[11:29] Enkidu Linden: wow
[11:29] SignpostMarv Martin: it would make my life easier if LL used semantic HTML, since I've got a WordPress plugin to maintain :-P
[11:29] Enkidu Linden: thanks, cummere. i will make sure they are aware of this
[11:30] Cummere Mayo: social team refuses to admit responsibility for thier actions let us opt out of the widgets or give us the ability to have our profiles searchable in world but not web displayed
[11:30] Enkidu Linden: for which of our sites, signpostmarv?
[11:30] SignpostMarv Martin: well, really- all of them, lol
[11:30] Cummere Mayo: which btw is a violation of erupoean law
[11:30] SignpostMarv Martin: my.secondlife.com would be a good start
[11:31] Cummere Mayo: i have nothing against web visible profiles and wisdgets if they had been made opt-in only!
[11:32] Praveen Linden: yeah I totally agree with you... We will have to see what profile teams deal is
[11:32] SignpostMarv Martin: Enkidu: I did a research project which demonstrated that semantic HTML can improve the page rank of a document, compared to the tag soup that LL use
[11:32] Ladan Linden: I need to jump into a meeting. It was nice meeting all of you. :-)
[11:32] Cummere Mayo: (btw theres 4 seperate jiras with combined votes now over 300 asking that profiles be made private unless opted in, and with making widgets optin only or at least opt out
[11:32] SignpostMarv Martin: see http://www.flickr.com/photos/signpostmarv/3185996635/in/set-72157604827778182/
[11:33] Enkidu Linden: tell me more, signpostmarv
[11:34] SignpostMarv Martin: at a time when world.secondlife.com/residents/* had 3720 results in google (and 9550 in world.secondlife.com itself), I had 123,000 in google and 142,045 in the research project website
[11:34] SignpostMarv Martin: of course, I was also cross-referencing information a whole lot more
[11:35] Cummere Mayo: thats scarey
[11:35] Cummere Mayo: :-/
[11:35] SignpostMarv Martin: I was linking up groups they created, parcels they owned, regions they owned & events they hosted
[11:35] SignpostMarv Martin: pagination on Governor Linden's region sub-pages was huge :-P
[11:35] Cummere Mayo: sounds like web security all the way around needs tightened allot
[11:36] Enkidu Linden: wait, wait
[11:37] Enkidu Linden: signpostmarv, you're basically scraping our html and converting it into some microformat or another and re-posting it?
[11:37] SignpostMarv Martin: were
[11:37] SignpostMarv Martin: had to put it on hiatus because the cross-referencing queries was glooming too many resources on the shared host :P
[11:38] Cummere Mayo: and if hes able to do that you better belive companies and individuials that have allot less benign purposes are doing it
[11:38] SignpostMarv MartinSignpostMarv Martin wasn't putting ads in
[11:38] Enkidu Linden: that doesn't follow
[11:39] SignpostMarv Martin: ads would've just mucked up the nice clean HTML ^_^
[11:39] Praveen Linden: lol
[11:39] SignpostMarv Martin: I also had hAtom, Atom, RSS & iCal feeds of people's rezdays
[11:40] Enkidu Linden: i want to be careful to make the distinction that he hasn't broken into our content in any way
[11:40] Cummere Mayo: he said this was stuff gleaned through flicker and goggle if i understand right
[11:40] SignpostMarv Martin: nope
[11:40] Cummere Mayo: *google
[11:41] SignpostMarv Martin: events data was taken from 3 publicly accessible sources because it wasn't all in one place (3 different places on *.secondlife.com is silly, btw)
[11:41] SignpostMarv Martin: everything else was taken from world.secondlife.com
[11:41] Enkidu Linden: he's essentially aggregating our public content
[11:41] Cummere MayoCummere Mayo is really fightened at the implications
[11:42] Cummere Mayo: and if he is so are many other people and companies
[11:42] SignpostMarv Martin: oh, I did get bored once and had some code log into the land store to fetch the region owners
[11:42] Cummere Mayo: which is why people are furious
[11:42] Cummere Mayo: until nov i had no idea my profile was public
[11:42] Eddi Decosta: Enkidu how i can disable the web profile when i go on Inworldz with the 2.6 ?? ㋡
[11:42] SignpostMarv Martin: but that stuff wasn't really useful since relatively few people are region owners
[11:43] SignpostMarv Martin: interesting cross reference stuffs:
[11:43] Cummere Mayo: i knew abstractly it was on the web but like most users believed (niavely) that it was at least only accessible to those with SL accounts
[11:44] Enkidu Linden: i'm afraid i know almost nothing about the web profiles
[11:44] SignpostMarv Martin: determining the historical popularity of regions & parcels by matching up events data (I had a event heatmap image API at one point)
[11:44] Enkidu Linden: just that we have them now
[11:44] Cummere Mayo: as a long time volunteer and resident of SL i feel really betrayed my info was made public like this
[11:45] SignpostMarv Martin: determining when a region was renamed, moved or recycled by monitoring for changes in UUID, name & co-ordinates
[11:45] SignpostMarv Martin: (which was interesting to watch, actually)
[11:46] SignpostMarv Martin: also cross-referenced picks with resident names so you could see who mentioned you in their profile
[11:46] SignpostMarv Martin: had to spend half an hour adjusting the regex on that SQL query when M Linden became CEO :-P
[11:46] Enkidu Linden: i'm sorry to hear that, cummere
[11:47] SignpostMarv Martin: you know google has support for some microformats ?
[11:48] Enkidu Linden: i did know that
[11:48] Enkidu Linden: i think microformats are fascinating
[11:48] SignpostMarv Martin: btw, in case you weren't aware, I'm the guy who fudged hCalendar into the SL Wiki for Office Hour goodness
[11:48] Enkidu Linden: i didn't realize they were that influential in SEO terms
[11:49] Enkidu Linden: oh, thank you!
[11:50] SignpostMarv Martin: I also spent some time talking with the people at Eventful about using their API to basically duplicate all the events data LL were putting into Eventful because quite frankly, LL weren't using the API properly
[11:51] SignpostMarv Martin: they weren't too sure about it, since I would be putting *every* event & using every aspect of their API that could be deemed useful (SL root venue, regions as sub-venues, parcels as further sub venues, and so on)
[11:52] SignpostMarv Martin: While LL seem to be able to make web pages "pretty", underlying code & the use of external service APIs has proven to be underwhelming
[11:52] SignpostMarv Martin: some of the code for my research project is in http://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/metaverse-id/ now
[11:53] SignpostMarv Martin: so people can include their SL profiles on their wordpress blogs
[11:53] SignpostMarv Martin: the html is marked up all nice and semantic :-P
[11:53] Enkidu Linden: that's true, we don't have enough service apis
[11:53] Praveen LindenPraveen Linden supresses a chortle re: underwhelming service apis
[11:53] SignpostMarv Martin: Enkidu: I was referring to LL's under-utilisation of the Eventful.com API,
[11:54] Enkidu Linden: that's probably also true
[11:54] SignpostMarv Martin: but LL's own APIs are a bit "meh" too
[11:54] SignpostMarv MartinSignpostMarv Martin wrote an API wrapper to the slurl.com API that returns JSON-only data for asynchronous & cross-origin goodness
[11:54] Enkidu Linden: we have some but i think we all would like to have more
[11:55] Enkidu Linden: that's a great example -- i've periodically looked at slurl and thought we should provide a better api to our maps
[11:56] Enkidu Linden: slurl.com and maps.sl.com are nice but i bet you guys can think of some crazy, awesome things to do with those tools
[11:56] SignpostMarv Martin: http://mapapi.net/
[11:56] Praveen LindenPraveen Linden is hoping that we are going to come up with an overall better web api strategy in the future
[11:56] SignpostMarv MartinSignpostMarv Martin is the guy upgrading slmapapi.js, btw
[11:56] Cummere Mayo: as long as theres good privacy controls in all your apis
[11:56] Praveen LindenPraveen Linden completely agrees with cummere
[11:57] Cummere Mayo: LLs record of privacy the last year+ is seriously flawed
[11:57] Praveen Linden: right now our development efforts have really only started to touch social media and because of our huge backlog we get things wrong a lot of the time
[11:57] Cummere Mayo: make things opt-in only
[11:57] SignpostMarv Martin: Praveen: if you had good APIs, you'd not need to touch social media
[11:57] SignpostMarv Martin: third-parties would be doing it all :-P
[11:57] Praveen Linden: yeah I agree again
[11:57] Cummere Mayo: you CANNOT go wrong with making everything OPT-IN only
[11:57] Praveen Linden: :(
[11:58] Eddi Decosta: i,m back in few .. going to start my coffee maker, i need one ^^
[11:58] Praveen Linden: cummere, you know how the corporate types everywhere like to default against opt-in
[11:58] Cummere Mayo: actually i dont.
[11:59] Cummere Mayo: most of the few corps i have reason to do business with are VERY privacy oriented
[11:59] Praveen Linden: and I think we should be and we want to be too
[12:00] Enkidu Linden: time to wrap up, guys
[12:00] Wasteland Core: Praveen: " our development efforts have really only started to touch social media " - what kind of social media efforts are in the pipeline?
[12:00] SignpostMarv Martin: the problem with the web privacy stuff is that it's relatively trivial for someone to write a libOMV bot to mine the data
[12:00] Praveen Linden: like I said, I think I lot of this is because we are overworked and we haven't worked out all the glitches in regard to privacy
[12:00] SignpostMarv Martin: Wasteland: LL's web viewer had an accompanying facebook app, but they hid it when they noticed that I found it :-P
[12:01] Wasteland Core: lol Signpost
[12:01] Cummere Mayo: I think then that whoever made the call to automatically add widgets and automatically display our profiles on both websites should be come down on by LL like a ton of bricks. not fired... but severely slapped down
[12:01] SignpostMarv Martin: yeah, the auto-add widgets thing
[12:01] SignpostMarv Martin: iframes to third-party websites should not be automatically added into the DOM
[12:01] SignpostMarv Martin: and I believe that's how Facebook's stuff works
[12:02] Enkidu Linden: ok
[12:02] Enkidu Linden: let us stop here
[12:02] Enkidu Linden: like i said, social will be starting user groups soon
[12:02] Cummere Mayo: and its inexcusable that when it broke that its been 3 weeks and social is still only "investigating" letting all users opt out of widgets and have an option to make proifles private
[12:02] Cummere Mayo: not soon enough enkidu
[12:03] SignpostMarv Martin: oh, social media-wise, I do know that LL put sponsored results into stumbleupon :-P
[12:03] Cummere Mayo: they should have had user groups (hoorible confusing name btw) BEFORE making these changes
[12:03] Enkidu Linden: that may be true but in any case neither praveen nor myself can give you answers about how it works or why we do it that way since we aren't on that team
[12:03] Cummere Mayo: (someone really should tell someone at LL user groups is a bad name. discussion groups would be better. user groups has a very differant meaning to most gamers and to tech types)
[12:04] SignpostMarv Martin: Cummere: in what context is this term being used ?
[12:04] Eddi Decosta: back*
[12:04] Cummere Mayo: user groups are the name for the new office hours
[12:04] Wasteland Core: funny name
[12:05] SignpostMarv Martin: ResiHuddle would be sillier :P
[12:05] Wasteland Core: lol
[12:05] Cummere Mayo: but it makes people think that they are limited to certain levels of residents
[12:05] Cummere Mayo: i really think discussion groups would be less confusing and misleading
[12:05] Enkidu Linden: in the meantime, you know i will pass the transcript along, right?
[12:05] Wasteland Core: "LL interaction sessions"
[12:06] Cummere Mayo: I hope so
[12:06] Cummere Mayo: and please ask someone from social to contact me.
[12:07] Cummere Mayo: I really dont want to have to resort to suing LL to get them to sit down and talk
[12:07] Cummere Mayo: (...but i will)
[12:09] Enkidu Linden: k, we're way over and i have a meeting soon and lunch to eat
[12:09] Enkidu Linden: so i'd better scoot
[12:09] Cummere Mayo: tc enkidu
[12:10] Cummere Mayo: nice to meet you praveen
[12:10] Enkidu Linden: thanks for coming, everyone!
[12:10] Eddi DecostaEddi Decosta give a coffee to Enki ㋡
[12:10] SignpostMarv Martin: Cummere: I did have some social features that I made opt-in, btw
[12:10] Cummere Mayo: opt in is fine sign
[12:10] Wasteland Core: thank you Lindens and everyone!
[12:10] SignpostMarv Martin: you could do friend requests with XFN values
[12:10] Enkidu Linden: see you, guys!
[12:10] SignpostMarv Martin: reciprocal XFN data would be embedded in the HTML output, but the link would only be included if both people said "publish"
[12:10] Cummere Mayo: sorry im grumpy today

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