Mesh/Archive/2011-10-17

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Agenda

  1. What SHOULD happen to unconnected vertices (which are not part of any face) ?
    1. Should they be silently removed ?
    2. Should an error message pop up ?
    3. Are they silently included but not rendered ? [Gaia Clary, Eleanora Newell]
  2. How can we force the center of an object to a specific location different from the BBox Center? [Gaia Clary, Eleanora Newell]
  3. Some "older" mesh viewers allowed you to upload a LOD without the same number of faces as the other LOD's (though showing RED before upload, it would allow it to be uploaded anyway). I've been using that alot to make extreme low triangle final LODs (like 1 triangle, with two points collapsed - rendering it invisible) for a final LOD to save on PE on some object (had I used the auto generate it would perhaps have been 8 triangles according to number of faces). Is this a problem for the newer viewers? I've seen latest LL viewer putting faces wrongly on my existing inworld mesh's and was wondering if that might be the cause of it?
  4. Do meshes use the same exact skeleton system as a normal avatar, even though the joint names are different?
  5. Is the joint orientation and rotational order adjustable, or is it pre-determined in the sourcecode somewhere?
  6. What is the rotational order in BVH files used for by SL? If it is wrong, will it cause gimbal lock, etc.
  7. Can you animate the additional joints of the skeleton when using a mesh: mAnkleLeft, mToeLeft, mEyeLeft, etc? Or is this planned?
  8. The BVH file spec page for SL says it supports constraints, is that actually implemented and a usable feature?
  9. Runtai Linden posted a mapping of bones to internal bone names for the mesh model importer, it says lFoot = mFootLeft, is that a mistake? The closest bone location to it is actually mAnkleLeft


Meeting Notes

Transcript for Monday October 17, 2011

[11:58] Vincent Nacon who what now?
[11:58] Nooto lol
[11:58] Vincent Nacon residents?
[11:58] Vincent Nacon yeah
[11:58] Vincent Nacon and I think they are doing it blindly....
[11:58] Vincent Nacon not that I don't trust Qarl....
[11:59] Vincent Nacon because there's no working idea yet
[11:59] Vincent Nacon no techical work nor an idea how it would work...
[11:59] Koli Contepomi (sahkolihaa.contepomi) Koli Contepomi waves to Charlar.
[11:59] Charlar Linden shoot, you saw me
[11:59] Nooto this is something i would very much like to see happen
[11:59] Koli Contepomi (sahkolihaa.contepomi) :D
[11:59] தாமிரா எழிலன் (coby.foden) Woot. Cool avie Charlar has :-D ( 0 .°)
[11:59] Vincent Nacon did anyone bring matches?
[11:59] Nal (nalates.urriah) I suspect Qarl has ideas. But, I can't see how they can do much until LL decided what they want to do.
[12:00] Vincent Nacon or cig lighter?
[12:00] Charlar Linden vincent, always with the hate against trees.
[12:00] Charlar Linden without us, where would you be?
[12:00] Vincent Nacon who said it was hate?
[12:00] Vincent Nacon you gotta make sure no one is here with matches to burn something made out of wood
[12:00] Echos Remblai how do you add things to the agenda? are you suppose to actually edit the page or is there a form to add it somewhere
[12:00] Charlar Linden ahh, I see
[12:00] Nal (nalates.urriah) Aww... it is a seasonal clothing thing
[12:01] Charlar Linden edit the page
[12:01] Charlar Linden https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation/Mesh_Import_User_Group
[12:01] Echos Remblai ah ok
[12:01] Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) charlar is runitai going to be around today?
[12:01] Charlar Linden somebody shoot nooto with a tranq dart.
[12:01] Echos Remblai do you know about the bvh animation format char?
[12:02] Nooto its a special dance..its called"Can i have custom bump maps pls"
[12:02] Nal (nalates.urriah) In the wiki you can use plain text... use # to number items and Charlar Linden ti sign it.
[12:02] Charlar Linden i am a producer - we know everything, just can't talk about it.
[12:02] Charlar Linden I don't know if Runitai will be here, btw.
[12:02] Echos Remblai i wonder if the rotational order in bvh files actually matters to SL, if so what does it do
[12:03] Charlar Linden did you add it Echos?
[12:03] Echos Remblai is it going to cause gimbal lock or something if its not correct in there?
[12:03] Koli Contepomi (sahkolihaa.contepomi) Koli Contepomi waves to Prep.
[12:03] Charlar Linden to the agenda
[12:03] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Hola :)
[12:03] Prep Linden yoyo folks
[12:03] Nooto hi
[12:03] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) Hello Prep.
[12:03] Nal (nalates.urriah) We are suppoed to remind Charlar to post the minutes so Runitia can keep up.
[12:04] Charlar Linden i did - when i can't be here it is harder to get that done
[12:04] Nal (nalates.urriah) Not complaining just reminding... :p
[12:04] Charlar Linden We'll start in a minute
[12:04] Charlar Linden feel free to complain, i've been bad the past few weeks.
[12:05] Vincent Nacon anyone has a shear or cutter?
[12:05] Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) i was needing to make shure runitai was watching the crash loger when i do some thing so he gets the data he needs from my linux laptop
[12:05] Nal (nalates.urriah) electric hedge clipper?
[12:05] Vincent Nacon maybe...
[12:05] Koli Contepomi (sahkolihaa.contepomi) Hey Nyx.
[12:05] Motor Loon ey Nyx
[12:05] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) Hello Nyx!
[12:05] Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) hey Nyx
[12:06] bonsai Hello, Avatar!
[12:07] Charlar Linden Starting...
[12:07] Charlar Linden #1 What SHOULD happen to unconnected vertices (which are not part of any face) ?
[12:07] Vincent Nacon failed to load as far I know
[12:07] Koli Contepomi (sahkolihaa.contepomi) Koli Contepomi waves to Vir.
[12:08] Vir Linden Howdy all
[12:08] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Hi Vir
[12:08] Prep Linden I'm pretty sure we don't render them, however it is something that we should inform you about. Basically say you have n number of extra verts.
[12:08] Prep Linden File a jira and we can add the error checking. Thanks!
[12:09] Vincent Nacon you mean mesh is now supporting floating verts?
[12:09] Motor Loon Ok to use as a method of changing pivot ? or better making a invisible triangle?
[12:09] Drongle McMahon Same for edges with no face = connected extra vertices.
[12:09] Prep Linden Vincent* hopefully not - it's soemthing we need to verify and report to you if so.
[12:09] Vincent Nacon ok good
[12:10] Charlar Linden Echos - i don't see an agenda item from you.
[12:10] Vincent Nacon I wouldn't support them
[12:10] Charlar Linden having trouble?
[12:10] Drongle McMahon Motor...invisible triangles work to offset pivot.
[12:11] Vincent Nacon yeah
[12:11] Prep Linden Motor: if you use that to offset the mesh then we might berak that accidental functionality when we report/disallow the extra verts to be uploaded (again if that works - I'm not sure).
[12:12] Drongle McMahon As I recall, long time ago, isolated vertices and edghes did not work for offset.. That may have changed.
[12:12] Motor Loon I've been using a nonattached triangle myself... with 2 points collapsed to render it invisible
[12:12] Motor Loon to offset pivots
[12:13] Motor Loon which currently works perfectly
[12:13] Drongle McMahon That's a surprise; zero area triangles are culled from sculptiesMaybe not from meshes? At least on upload?
[12:14] Drongle McMahon We need a definitive statement from Davep.
[12:14] Vir Linden I thought we were filtering out degenerate tris
[12:14] Motor Loon could also have it as a proper triangle, and just have it on a seperate face - which you then make transparent after upload... but seemed like a waste of a face
[12:15] Vir Linden If not, it's certainly possible that we would start enforcing this in the future.
[12:15] Vincent Nacon floating vert and edge doesn't change it
[12:15] Vincent Nacon just polygon
[12:15] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Seems safer to stick with the one triangle method until they start supporting custom pivot points.
[12:15] Vincent Nacon aye
[12:15] Drongle McMahon It's a work-around anyway because Prep is going to give us offsets :-) ???
[12:16] Vincent Nacon even if he doesn't
[12:16] Charlar Linden next...
[12:16] Charlar Linden #2 How can we force the center of an object to a specific location different from the BBox Center? [Gaia Clary, Eleanora Newell]
[12:16] Vincent Nacon same topic, muhaha!
[12:16] Prep Linden We don't currently have support for specifying an alternate pivot point in the viewer - it is something that we had a partial implementation for a few months back and we have a task in the backlog to wrap up that work.
[12:16] Motor Loon °͜°
[12:16] Motor Loon I had another question... some older mesh viewers allowed you to upload a LOD without the same number of faces and the other LOD's (though showing RED before upload, it would allow it to be uploaded anyway). I've been using that alot to make extreme low triangle LODs (like 1 triangle, with two points collapsed - rendering it invisible) for a final LOD to save on PE on some object. Is this a problem for the newer viewers? I've seen latest LL viewer putting faces wrongly on my existing inworld mesh's and was wondering if that might be the cause of it?
[12:17] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) 0.o
[12:17] Prep Linden Hopefully soon - it's a really useful feature that would make lives considerably easier.
[12:17] Charlar Linden Motor - you should put those into the agenda, it's easier for people to find them in the archives.
[12:17] Motor Loon will do
[12:17] Charlar Linden thanks!
[12:18] Drongle McMahon There was a forum thread recently discussing the work-around.
[12:18] Drongle McMahon http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/Change-Pivot-Point-of-Mesh/m-p/1078125/message-uid/1078125#U1078125
[12:18] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Video tutorial on the workaround: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yow60SivXtw
[12:19] Prep Linden motor: file a jira and attach the asset or email it to me (prep@lindenlab.com).
[12:20] Prep Linden motor: or if you have asset now - i can take a quick look (just email the .dae).
[12:20] Motor Loon I'll make a proper example for you Prep instead
[12:20] Prep Linden motor: ok
[12:21] Charlar Linden OK, that's all folks!
[12:21] Charlar Linden BYE!
[12:21] Charlar Linden Charlar Linden waits...
[12:21] Motor Loon lols..
[12:21] Motor Loon Motor Loon added to agenda
[12:21] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Any news about resizing of rigged mesh?
[12:21] Nal (nalates.urriah) No one posted and item for mesh deformer?
[12:21] Charlar Linden we have a winner!
[12:22] Vir Linden ding ding ding!
[12:22] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) haha
[12:22] Charlar Linden Nal is the big winner!
[12:22] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Hey, I asked :p
[12:22] Nal (nalates.urriah) lol
[12:22] Nyx Linden motor - that's what prep was saying to send an asset in for :)
[12:22] Motor Loon oh
[12:22] Motor Loon ok hehe
[12:22] Nal (nalates.urriah) wow... I'll have to start readng the agend ainstead of assuming
[12:22] Charlar Linden ok, well see you all later!
[12:22] Vincent Nacon seeya
[12:22] Charlar Linden ok, i do have an update
[12:23] Vincent Nacon stay away from forest fire!
[12:23] Vincent Nacon oh?
[12:23] Charlar Linden on the mesh clothing issue
[12:23] Motor Loon ooh
[12:23] Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) dose any one think runitai will be around later?
[12:23] Charlar Linden THe engineers have completed their investigation into the possible solutions, and now we're vetting the options for technical viability and scope.
[12:23] Vir Linden runitai is out today
[12:24] Vincent Nacon for mesh deformer?
[12:24] Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) ok
[12:24] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) So, they have found more than one possible solution?
[12:24] Charlar Linden We're not ready to commit to any direction, or even if we're going to do anything; they all have tradeoffs
[12:24] Vincent Nacon figured
[12:24] Vincent Nacon might be too complex as well
[12:24] Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) hope what everthey do fr that is opensource
[12:24] Vir Linden We've been looking at a bunch of approaches
[12:25] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Not too complex. It exists in other systems.
[12:25] Vir Linden One thing that's clear is that the problem scope can cover a lot of ground depending on exactly what we're trying to achieve.
[12:25] Vir Linden e.g. do we need to deform clothing to match physics wearables (jiggle, etc)?
[12:26] Nal (nalates.urriah) You do know the Mesh Deformer Project of Qarl and Maxwell is moving ahead with a meeting today at 2 PM SLT?
[12:26] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Any idea when you guys will decide if you are going to work on it?
[12:26] Vir Linden do we need to automatically adjust to all avatar changes?
[12:26] Vir Linden Or do we just need to be able to deform to match a fixed shape.
[12:26] Wolfpup (wolfpup.lowenhar) yes having the closthe follow av physics would be a good thing
[12:26] Nal (nalates.urriah) Jiggle has been a big deal... :/ I can see where it would complicate things.
[12:27] Vir Linden Yeah, basically the more you want to achieve the bigger the project gets.
[12:27] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) [12:26] Asha: Any idea when you guys will decide if you are going to work on it?
[12:27] Charlar Linden Asha - we need to take it step by step. Hurrying into something like this could result in a solution that either doesnn't work very well anywhere, or in a very limited way.
[12:27] Vir Linden The simplest thing would be to allow multiple rigged meshes like we have today, so skeletons get followed, but this doesn't give you full range of shape changes.
[12:28] Vincent Nacon jiggling breasts may have been a bad idea.... jiggling ass is even worst
[12:28] Charlar Linden We have to balance this against things like crash rate, etc.
[12:28] Eleanora Newell thank you
[12:28] Vincent Nacon no offense to you, Nooto
[12:29] Nal (nalates.urriah) So, is the lab pursuing making a decision on direction? Or is this going on hold?
[12:29] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) That's understandable. I just wondered if there was an eta on whether you guys will work on this or will pass on it.
[12:29] Charlar Linden Your all's interest has helped us understand how important it is to you - and the explosion of mesh clothing, as opposed to full mesh avatars - was a surprise
[12:29] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Hey El
[12:29] Charlar Linden Nal - we're actively pursuing our scoping. It's never been on hold.
[12:30] Vir Linden Mesh avatars turned out to fairly easy to fit into the existing system. Unfortunately, fully deformable mesh clothing is a lot hairier problem.
[12:30] Motor Loon Massive potential if you make it work
[12:30] Nal (nalates.urriah) Good. I can understand it takes time and is complex. I just know that question os going to come up, Thx.
[12:30] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) I mean if the answer is....it won't be worked on. It will save some designers the headache of working on something that has a showstopper problem involved with it.
[12:31] Motor Loon agree... current mesh clothing is useless for most avatars (unless you're willing to have a seperate shape for each outfit)
[12:31] Charlar Linden Asha - yes we understand that. At the same time, if we do want to do something sooner than later, we need to be able to communicate the direction
[12:32] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Asha nods. "Ok, I get that part."
[12:33] Charlar Linden hey, Echos added some items - we need to get to those. If you have more questions about the clothing issue, we can talk later.
[12:33] Charlar Linden #4 Do meshes use the same exact skeleton system as a normal avatar, even though the joint names are different?
[12:33] Vir Linden Note that it's not just a matter of considering dev resources - some possible approaches could impose unacceptable performance reductions, etc.
[12:34] Prep Linden The skeletons are the same.
[12:34] Prep Linden You can however offset the joint positions.
[12:34] Charlar Linden #5 Is the joint orientation and rotational order adjustable, or is it pre-determined in the sourcecode somewhere?
[12:35] Prep Linden We don't support the importing of joint rotations or scaling atm (it's something that I have finished on the importer and just need to get working on the inside).
[12:36] Prep Linden Which is something that I have in my backlog.
[12:36] Echos Remblai does the default SL skeleton have a need for a specific rotational order?
[12:37] Eleanora Newell forgive me, i had problems getting here today, was question 1 responded to that i can get from the agenda notes later?
[12:37] Charlar Linden #6 What is the rotational order in BVH files used for by SL? If it is wrong, will it cause gimbal lock, etc.
[12:37] Charlar Linden Eleanora - yes it was.
[12:37] Charlar Linden I'll look up and send it to you now
[12:38] Eleanora Newell thank you, charlie
[12:38] Nal (nalates.urriah) Eleanore, yes
[12:38] Prep Linden Don;t know - give it a shot and let us know!
[12:38] Nyx Linden are you referring to how rotations get applied down the heirarchy of the skeleton?
[12:39] Echos Remblai im referring to the bvh file:CHANNELS 3 Yrotation Zrotation Xrotation
[12:40] Echos Remblai the order of them can be changed on the joint
[12:40] Echos Remblai for example to yzx, xyz, or any combination
[12:41] Nyx Linden honestly, I'm not sure, I'd have to check how we handle the animation formats
[12:42] Prep Linden Why do you want to change the order of the elements?
[12:42] Motor Loon "order of the elements" have such a nice ring to it... °͜°
[12:43] Echos Remblai its because my exporter doesn't create the order properly and this needs to be set properly in your animation package when doing IK to prevent gimbal lock
[12:43] Prep Linden cool - good luck
[12:43] Echos Remblai so if i import the file with incorrect rotational order will it mess up something, it doesnt appear to cause a problem on the surface
[12:44] Echos Remblai changing the joint orientation causes horrible problems though, i dont understand why exactly because i dont see it specified in the avatar xml
[12:44] Prep Linden echo: I'd look at the llbvhloader implementation.
[12:45] Prep Linden it gives you the ordering of the various elements.
[12:45] Prep Linden echo :indra\llcharacter\llbvhloader.cpp
[12:46] Echos Remblai im not sure if i would understand the code but i could try, thanks :)
[12:46] Prep Linden good luck.
[12:46] Charlar Linden #7 Can you animate the additional joints of the skeleton when using a mesh: mAnkleLeft, mToeLeft, mEyeLeft, etc? Or is this planned?
[12:47] Prep Linden All 26 joints should work - all my samples have anyways.
[12:47] Prep Linden Do you have one that does not appear to work?
[12:47] Echos Remblai i havent been able to get them to animate at all
[12:48] Echos Remblai if they are animatable then would they work on the default SL avatar or only on a mesh avatar? you said previously that both skeletons are the same
[12:48] Prep Linden echos: open up a jira and send along the asset to me - once i have the asset it's usually pretty easy to see whats broken.
[12:48] Prep Linden echo: if you have the asset now, I can take a quick look?
[12:49] Echos Remblai ive so far only tested the animation on a normal sl avatar not mesh yet
[12:49] Charlar Linden #8 The BVH file spec page for SL says it supports constraints, is that actually implemented and a usable feature?
[12:51] Prep Linden I'm uncertain - I'll ping richard and get his take on this.
[12:51] Charlar Linden #9 Runtai Linden posted a mapping of bones to internal bone names for the mesh model importer, it says lFoot = mFootLeft, is that a mistake? The closest bone location to it is actually mAnkleLeft
[12:52] Prep Linden nope thats correct (just looked at the code).
[12:53] Echos Remblai in the original bvh animations for sl that bone corrosponds to the mAnkle though
[12:54] Echos Remblai in the avatar skeleton xml its the exact position for the ankle too
[12:55] Charlar Linden ok, then seriously, that's our last item for today. We only have about 5 minutes left.
[12:56] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Thanks for the meeting.
[12:56] Nal (nalates.urriah) Maxwell/Qarl think they will hit a funding mark in a couple of months. Think LL may be able to decide on a defomer direction by then?
[12:56] Vincent Nacon not till one of them got a working concept first
[12:56] Charlar Linden good question Nal.
[12:56] Charlar Linden :-)
[12:57] Nal (nalates.urriah) lol... ok spose that is a good answer.
[12:57] Motor Loon 3677 of 5400 usd raised
[12:57] Charlar Linden We are on our own timeframe, obviously, but i feel like we're going to know what we want to do much sooner than a couple months.
[12:57] Charlar Linden that doesn't mean we'll DO anything. The answer might be :"Later"
[12:58] Nal (nalates.urriah) Well, if you can decide on a direction Max and Qarl can do something that hopefully helps everyone.
[12:59] Motor Loon poof
[12:59] Charlar Linden i think that's about all we have time for today - thanks a lot for coming!
[12:59] Nal (nalates.urriah) Thx for the answers :)
[13:00] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) Thank you Charlar..
[13:00] Koli Contepomi (sahkolihaa.contepomi) See you Charlar, Prep. :o
[13:00] Drongle McMahon Bye
[13:00] Echos Remblai thanks all
[13:00] Charlar Linden sure - if you have questions, I'll try to answer
[13:00] Mikki Miles bye
[13:00] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Nal, they are having a meetung at 2 today?
[13:00] Eleanora Newell ty for responding today
[13:00] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) A public one?
[13:00] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) *meeting
[13:00] Nal (nalates.urriah) yes... links are here: http://blog.nalates.net/2011/10/17/mesh-deformer-project-meeting-today/
[13:00] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Ah thanks much ^^
[13:01] Nal (nalates.urriah) As far as I know it is public. It will supposedly also be on treet.tv
[13:01] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) I see. Very neat.
[13:02] Eleanora Newell there was an interview taped, qarl din't make it
[13:02] Eleanora Newell is what i heard
[13:02] Nal (nalates.urriah) I'm surprised Maxwell is not here and didn't have an item on the agenda. May be it is a stage fright thing on the coming tv appearance.
[13:03] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Asha laughs
[13:03] Eleanora Newell but max was there
[13:03] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) He is a busy guy.
[13:03] Nal (nalates.urriah) I'm sure. But I've gotta push some fun at him.
[13:03] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) I think she means she was surprised he wasn't here at this meeting El.
[13:04] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) :D
[13:04] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) Yes, Fun would be good
[13:04] Eleanora Newell :)
[13:04] Eleanora Newell see you all next week
[13:04] Asha (ashasekayi.ra) See ya :)
[13:04] Nal (nalates.urriah) cya 2
[13:04] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) See you!
[13:04] Charlar Linden bye
[13:04] Nal (nalates.urriah) bye Char
[13:05] Charlar Linden bye Nal
[13:05] Charlar Linden bye everyone
[13:05] Nooto cya
[13:05] Yuzuru (yuzuru.jewell) See you Charlar!
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