User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2008 11 25

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[11:02]	Simon Linden:	Hi
[11:02]	Anita Muggins:	hello andrew
[11:02]	Andrew Linden:	Hi everyone
[11:02]	Jordan Merricks:	hi Simon, hi Andrew, welcome to "Technical issues, SL architecture, physics engine." Office Hours.
[11:02]	Simon Linden:	wow, slow to rez today
[11:02]	Jordan Merricks:	oh wait, that's your line
[11:03]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hi, Andrew, Simon, et al et sundry, et those incipient.
[11:03]	Rex Cronon:	hello everybody
[11:03]	Jordan Merricks:	woo iron man :D
[11:03]	Simon Linden:	HI Rex
[11:03]	Anita Muggins:	hello
[11:04]	Rex Cronon:	aaaah. i forgot to bring hulk with me:)
[11:04]	Andrew Linden:	First announcement is that I won't be holding office hours this coming Thursday evening
[11:04]	Saijanai Kuhn:	awwww....
[11:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	Thanks Sai. Yeah, Zha disappears at lightspeed :-)
[11:05]	Rex Cronon:	i am afraid to sit down. each time i sit i am logged off:(
[11:05]	Saijanai Kuhn:	ah just watched one known alt go offline at the same time, plus 2 potential alts also.
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	That is Thanksgiving Day in the United States and I'll be in the middle of some post-dinner recovery at that time.
[11:05]	Saijanai Kuhn:	I know Andrew. Didn't expect anyone but the grid monkey to be around at that time
[11:05]	Jordan Merricks:	ahh, Andrew-san, you know the way of the samurai eater!
[11:05]	Wolfhaven Teleportation HUD v3.0 is Ready
[11:06]	Rex Cronon:	is kind of hard to type, while eating turkey:)
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	I wonder if server-1.25 has been deployed... I've been so heads-down I haven't paid enough attention
[11:06]	Jordan Merricks:	sorry, I'm full of all sorts of obscure references today
[11:06]	Kitto Flora:	Not yet
[11:06]	Simon Linden:	1.25 is back in dev and debugging
[11:06]	Saijanai Kuhn:	1.24.9.9... here still
[11:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew, is there something special going on that you're able to tell us about? Because I crashed over 30 times overnight ... and I never crash, ordinarily.
[11:07]	Jordan Merricks:	oh wow, that's a lot
[11:07]	Rex Cronon:	and i crashed like at least 10 times today
[11:07]	Saijanai Kuhn:	I want to know what's going on he's NOT allowed to tell us about...
[11:07]	Rex Cronon:	every 5 minutes
[11:07]	Simon Linden:	Is that your viewer or a region crashing?
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	Ah indeed. It seems there is a 1.25.2 version and its release has been pushed into Dec.
[11:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hehe
[11:07]	Jordan Merricks:	I haven't crashed at all today
[11:07]	Rex Cronon:	i have witnesses
[11:07]	Arawn Spitteler:	RC0 was crashing more yesterday, than before. the SLim viewer was also too crashy, and I had to go Beresford.
[11:08]	Rex Cronon:	my viewer
[11:08]	Kitto Flora:	I get viewer crash maybe once every few days.
[11:08]	Morgaine Dinova:	Viewer
[11:08]	Simon Linden:	I know the latest RC viewer is very crashy ... I sit near the guy who wrote the bug :)
[11:08]	Saijanai Kuhn:	I still get the whiteout bug in the viewer, but other than that, it seems pretty stable, especialy for a G5 Mac
[11:08]	Morgaine Dinova:	Both WinXP and Linux
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, well that means that the 54 m linkability for avatars misfeatue will probably be included in whatever goes out.
[11:08]	Rex Cronon:	so, we shouldn't use the latest RC viewer?
[11:09]	Saijanai Kuhn:	I've been pushing you guys to start using the Apple Instruments for A purposes. They seem tailor made for SL
[11:09]	Kitto Flora:	My sim owner has similar setup to me for PC, but has a later version of OpenGL, and complains of crashing viewer a lot
[11:09]	Saijanai Kuhn:	QA* purposes
[11:09]	Simon Linden:	yes - I know the first RC0 that went out had a lot of crashes. They've been fixed, but I don't know about an update
[11:09]	Morgaine Dinova:	I've not used RC though, just the latest official releases, so was quite surprised at the mayhem.
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	According to Bridie Linden's update email there is an RC with a crash fix that might go out today.
[11:10]	Saijanai Kuhn:	here's a fun test of the new sculpty types btw
[11:10]	Rex Cronon:	for me all these crashes(logg-offs) have something to do with sitting down
[11:10]	Simon Linden:	Hmm, the official release shouldn't have changed. Since the sims are also unchanged on 1.24, I'm not sure why you would be seeing more problems
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	viewer-1.22 RC1
[11:11]	Saijanai Kuhn:	so when do we get collisoin tests for THAT?
[11:11]	Arawn Spitteler:	It might be a complication of setting up for 1.25, that doesn't jive with 1.22.0
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	alas, correct collisions for sculpties is a ways off
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	definitely 2009 or later
[11:11]	Saijanai Kuhn:	for this one, I assume WAAAAY off
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	hopefully by summer 2009
[11:12]	Morgaine Dinova:	Wow
[11:12]	Rex Cronon:	how safe to use is "Second_Life_1-22-1-103637_ReleaseCandidate_Setup.exe"?
[11:12]	Saijanai Kuhn:	has ths rezzed for you yet ANdrew?
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	it depends on what emergencies pop up before then
[11:12]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hiya StarSong :-))
[11:12]	Kitto Flora:	Is Andre interested in problems with llSensorRepeat() ?
[11:12]	Jordan Merricks:	hi Starsong
[11:12]	StarSong Bright waves to the invisible people smiling
[11:12]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	sure Kitto, what is up with llSensorRepeat()?
[11:12]	Jordan Merricks:	we're not invisible
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	and are we sure the problem also exists in server-1.25?
[11:13]	StarSong Bright:	ah there you are
[11:13]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Andrew are you saying you hyope to handle colision tests with this thing?
[11:13]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew, I have a 3rd party object - a railroad crossing arm that uses llSensorRepeat() to detect passing trains. It works badly. Appears to sense way beyond the claimed range and intermittent. More....
[11:14]	Rex Cronon:	hopefully not sometimes in the far, far away future:)
[11:14]	Kitto Flora:	I made a test simple llSensorRepeat() object - and it worked fine. More....
[11:14]	Jordan Merricks:	ahh actually I've seen cases of that many times myself
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	yes, someday Saijanai we should get *better* collision shapes for sculpties
[11:14]	Kitto Flora:	BUT if you place the two side by side, the 3rd party object appears to mess up the operation of the simple test object!
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	they certainly won't be perfect right off the bat, and some really tortured sculpties will have bad approximations
[11:14]	Saijanai Kuhn:	wow. that's going to be impressive when it happens then. I'd assume this case would be ignored because its too contrived
[11:14]	Rex Cronon:	kitto is it close to the sim border?
[11:15]	Arawn Spitteler:	Collision Shapes for Sculpties would be server side, but textures would be viewed Client Side.
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	but a nice smooth shape like the onion behind me should have a pretty good collision shape someday
[11:15]	Arawn Spitteler:	Variable Collision Detail might be developed in competition.
[11:15]	Saijanai Kuhn:	in case people haven't noticed, that' array of cubes is actually a single prim
[11:16]	Jordan Merricks:	for me Kitto, I see things on radar that are often times FAR beyond the claimed max range of llSensorRepeat()... and sometimes across sim borders which is definately not supposed to happen
[11:16]	Jordan Merricks:	I've gotten people on my radar before at 1769m away
[11:16]	Rex Cronon:	llSensorRepeat, detects things accros sim borders
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	ok kitto, so the sensor repeate is intermittent
[11:17]	Arawn Spitteler:	I thought it only detected Agents, across sim borders. Something about Interest Lists.
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	and can be fouled by another nearby script?
[11:17]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew: The range in one object appears to be flaky (12.5M is whats set).
[11:17]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew, YEs, the nearby object interation is very strange
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	Well, I have no doubt that an audit of the sensor code would find some code that really needs some work
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	However... that is a real project that is outside the scope of what I can work on in the short term
[11:19]	Kitto Flora:	For the 3rd party object - maybe. I cant see what in it. Maker says 'repeat with range 12.5M
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	if there was a specific bug with repro recipe I might be able to convince some of the MONO maintenane team to work on it
[11:19]	Kitto Flora:	My test object - its very simple. but it gets affected by the 3rd party object running nearby
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	which reminds me... today after this meeting I'm going to fix bugs...
[11:20]	Jordan Merricks:	lol yay
[11:20]	Kitto Flora:	Fix bugs!
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	however I'm going to try to focus on EASY bugs and see how many i can fix before the end of the afternoon
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	there is a maintenance branch that is pretty ripe... almost ready for QA and mergeback efforts
[11:20]	Jordan Merricks:	well I know something that should be relatively easy, but I wouldn't consider it a bug, more of a "usability change" suggestion I guess
[11:20]	Kitto Flora:	I'll see if it will repro here
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	I've been delaying the wrap-up in the hopes that another maintenance branch will succeed and get the mergeback lock complete
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	so hopefully whatever I can fix today will actually get into server-1.26 if I can get the new maintenance branch into the QA pipeline
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	Feel free to mention your idea Jordan. Some bugs are easy to explain but not necessarily easy to fix.
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	In any case, I'm open to suggestions of bugs that look EASY. In particular, SVC-22 is NOT easy.
[11:22]	Jordan Merricks:	well in this case it's actually just the order of the right-click menu from inventory, when you right click an object (not clothing, shape, skin, etc)
[11:23]	Jordan Merricks:	here, I'll give you a couple snapshots of what I mean....
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	ah, SL viewer usability. Outside my jurisdiction I'm afraid
[11:23]	Jordan Merricks:	and it's strange, it's different from client to client I believe
[11:23]	Arawn Spitteler:	I'd an idea, that encroaching objecs could be asked, if they've seized anyone's controlls
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	besides, there is now a team of usability experts who guard it.
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	Any changes would have to get their stamp of approval.
[11:23]	Jordan Merricks:	ahh, ok well then in that case, a point in the right direction would be just fine
[11:24]	Kitto Flora:	Thats interesting. the test is messing up here, without the problem 3rd party object around. Maybe theres a similar in the area
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	Jordan, I think there are some in-world office hours that focus on usability.
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	Erica Linden comes to mind as someone who might be available and would be interested in usability suggestions.
[11:24]	Jordan Merricks:	ahh yep found it
[11:24]	Jordan Merricks:	benjamin linden
[11:24]	StarSong Bright:	who is the top linden for ui ?
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	I think Glenn Linden is a lead in the usability team.
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	There are some others who care alot about usability... James Linden, Brent Linden.
[11:25]	Jordan Merricks:	alright, I'll pay them a visit or 8
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	Malbers Linden too I think.
[11:25]	Jordan Merricks:	lol
[11:26]	StarSong Bright:	yes i have met malbers
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	Arawn, what was that idea about "encroaching" objects?
[11:26]	Saijanai Kuhn:	client quietly died no apple crash report, no linden crash report, just "poof" and I'm at the desktop
[11:27]	Rex Cronon:	sai, try standing up
[11:27]	Arawn Spitteler:	If the avatar has't crossed tbhesim possession, yet, the object still has controls.
[11:27]	Rex Cronon:	since i stopped sitting i no longer crash
[11:27]	StarSong Bright:	yes thats been happenign on my macbook pro as well, crash no save.. have had a couple gray screeens of restart lately too
[11:27]	Saijanai Kuhn:	ekrnel panic ick
[11:27]	StarSong Bright laughs, dont edit anything either rex
[11:27]	Rex Cronon:	i am NOT jocking
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	more context please Arawn, ARe you talking about a vehicle that has controls?
[11:28]	StarSong Bright:	i know, happens to me to, editing sculpties seems to the be one that does me in most often
[11:28]	Kitto Flora:	OK, I found the interaction problem and fixed that
[11:28]	Arawn Spitteler:	A script, in a vehicles, has controls, and permission doesn't have to be re-granted, when the avatar catches up.
[11:28]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Well I trid to take the sculpty back when the crash happened so that may have been it
[11:29]	Kitto Flora:	This is now just down to the bad 3rd party object.
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	ok arawn, so spell it out for me? This is an idea on how to handle region corssings with perm controls better? Are you brainstorming about SVC-22?
[11:30]	Arawn Spitteler:	SVC-22, where the object has been received by a sim, but the riding agents haven't been. If the object isn't sat, it could still be controlled.
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	ah ok.
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	The unsit operation usually releases controls right?
[11:31]	Arawn Spitteler:	Would it be possible, to detect if an object has any scripts with controlls possessed, or would that have to be added as a flag
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... if we changed what is released on unsit I'm sure we'd break someone's content.
[11:32]	Arawn Spitteler:	The Agent is neither Sat, nor Unsat, but Controls must still be granted, or they'd ahve to be regranted.
[11:32]	Rex Cronon:	like deformers?
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	Ah yes, the control flags are transmitted across the boundry with the avatar.
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	So that when it arrives it picks up the controls again.
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	in this case... the object has moved into a new region
[11:32]	Arawn Spitteler:	Then the object would need its own flags, for this to work
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	but the avatar lost control (or the controls were suspended) when the object moved on and the avatar stayed behind
[11:33]	Arawn Spitteler:	Might as well give it a sat-list
[11:33]	Arawn Spitteler:	That must be why I can't control, in such states. That and it's like lag walking.
[11:34]	Arawn Spitteler:	So, we'd have to certify the vehicle as being sat
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	It would take me half a day justo to sort through the code and start getting an idea of what could be done for SVC-22
[11:35]	Andrew Linden:	then I'd have to start cleaning up and changing some very fragile code
[11:35]	Andrew Linden:	not today, alas
[11:35]	Jordan Merricks:	just don't clean it with a sandblaster :D
[11:35]	Andrew Linden:	I'm technically still in the middle of a larger unfinished project
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	but figured I'd try to take a day of fixing bugs in the middle of it
[11:36]	Arawn Spitteler:	Dynamite? Is there a paradigm, for how to list desired features, when you get about to tampering? I know a few things were missed in Mono
[11:37]	Andrew Linden:	I'd prefer to stay away from feature projects in the short term.
[11:37]	Andrew Linden:	I'm waiting for the mono-team to start adding their own features.
[11:37]	Andrew Linden:	then I'd consider it open feature season
[11:38]	Andrew Linden:	and try to get some of my own small but easy ones in
[11:38]	Arawn Spitteler:	Mono's just an example. SVC-22 is an invitation to open code that's dysinviting.
[11:39]	Arawn Spitteler:	The algorhythms of this engine needs a lot of Wheat and Chaff Sorting, and the elegantial algorhythms will involves some legendary lessons.
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	indeed
[11:40]	Arawn Spitteler:	Making SL non-GUI accessible, would be a philosophic excersize of he Helen Keller Group
[11:40]	StarSong Bright:	they were talking about that in the ui group last week
[11:40]	StarSong Bright:	accessibility i mean
[11:41]	Rex Cronon:	what ui group?
[11:41]	Arawn Spitteler:	Someone should have told me; I'm the Senseless King
[11:41]	StarSong Bright:	the one for benjamin linden, but he doesnt host it
[11:41]	StarSong Bright:	malbers was there though
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	What senses are you missing Arawn?
[11:42]	Arawn Spitteler:	Mostly just the Good One, but making SL accessible to Helen Keller would be for practice.
[11:43]	Arawn Spitteler:	I've a hearing impaired, on IM, despite hour use of a Phoenetic Alphabet, and Helen Keller's Watch hadn't been made for Helen Keller.
[11:44]	Arawn Spitteler:	Ever play Collosal Cave?
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	No, I haven't played it.
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	That is a text-only MUD, right?
[11:44]	Kitto Flora:	That does nothing here.
[11:44]	Kitto Flora:	Precursor to MUD. It was single-player
[11:45]	Andrew Linden:	Ah, is that the one the kid was playing in that movie with Tom Hanks, "Big" ?
[11:45]	StarSong Bright:	I have been coming to all the various office hours to learn more about the SL innards. I am doing a masters program in gaming and my project is a theoretical "redesign" of the SL interface... i have even gone so far as to download teh sl source files and try to compile them and dig around. heh a real feat for a noob programmer lol.
[11:45]	Arawn Spitteler:	Yeah, but an example of text based imagery. It's a bit steep for opening the UI of SL to the blind. I'd actually start with coupled UI, so the Blind and Deaf could develop Teamwork, buyt that's a UI project
[11:46]	StarSong Bright:	yes, we talked about how objects would need some sort of extended taggin system so they could "describe themselves" to the blind
[11:46]	Kitto Flora:	How does one convert a 3-d graphis image into a text description?
[11:46]	Rex Cronon:	i u e working on your master u can't be a noob:)
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	Starsong, were you able to compile the SL client and login with it?
[11:46]	Arawn Spitteler:	Do that project, Star, and you won't be a noob programmer, but will hire other noobs to proggram for you.
[11:46]	Rex Cronon:	if u*
[11:47]	StarSong Bright:	i had one error, on that third party bit you have to download, i must have gotten it in wrong.. almsot there though
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm...
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	recently Philip Linden downloaded the source and built it... took him a while
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	I forget how long... it was either an entire day, or an entire week.
[11:48]	Kitto Flora:	Philip forgot how to do this stuff?
[11:48]	Arawn Spitteler:	How to open the Interface to the impossible markets, is a matter of finding a toe-hold for practice.
[11:48]	StarSong Bright laughs, if it werent for the third party part i think i would have gotten it in a single go
[11:48]	Andrew Linden:	He hasn't had his hands in the code for a long time. the process and tools have changed a lot
[11:49]	Kitto Flora:	Hardy Heron
[11:49]	Kitto Flora:	?
[11:49]	Andrew Linden:	StarSong, how ambitious is your UI redesign?
[11:49]	Andrew Linden:	Are you going to just mock it up? Or try to implement an SL version of it?
[11:50]	StarSong Bright:	well, my goal is to do what you guys dont have the luxury of doing, pretending like all the existing users dont exist and start from teh ground up, with the current functionality
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	Starsong, when are you to be finished?
[11:51]	StarSong Bright:	using modern HCI methods and heuristics to design it. my thesis will be a defense of it based on the current research
[11:51]	StarSong Bright:	next year
[11:51]	Kitto Flora:	Actually one might get somewhere with a text only interface, that 'looks' in different compas directions, and simply says whats there. Might get a lot of 'Objects' though. Things need better names
[11:51]	Arawn Spitteler:	That's why I'd start with Seeing Eye Deaf People, and work up to Blind Friendly Parcels.
[11:52]	Andrew Linden:	A blind friendly SL might be one that allowed the avatar to be collisionless and float about
[11:52]	Arawn Spitteler:	Info-Swamping would have to be sorted.
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	with audible queues for the various types of content around
[11:53]	Arawn Spitteler:	Collisions have been dealt with, I understand.
[11:53]	StarSong Bright:	oh andrew i have a question for you, how hard would it be to make the client decide the draw distance based on its current frame rate?
[11:53]	Arawn Spitteler:	My cheap keypad doesn't tell me, when I've input, but there are those which do.
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	StarSong, I think it has been tried.
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	It is difficult to do well.
[11:53]	StarSong Bright:	I mean, is it even possible to have it note that you are suddenly in a texture overload environment liek a mall and drop you to 64 automatically
[11:54]	Arawn Spitteler:	For a Mall, I'd do less
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	However StarSong, you might try asking Runitai Linden if you can find him.
[11:54]	StarSong Bright:	well 64 is default limit
[11:54]	Arawn Spitteler:	Is it possible, to hack the viewer for less.
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	He's the expert at the rendering pipeline and how easy/hard a change might be.
[11:54]	StarSong Bright:	yes but for my interface design i would like to make it where the user doesnt have to even knkow draw distance, it would just happen for them.. it would be fewer sliders and thigns to worry about
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	Arawn, yes the viewer is hackable for a smaller draw distance limit
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	./
[11:55]	StarSong Bright:	the interface guys were, like, thats an architecture thing lol
[11:56]	Andrew Linden:	StarSong, the ultimate design would just be a Much Smarter System that could use image based proxies for distant collections of objects
[11:56]	Arawn Spitteler:	They might benefit from Big Picture Organizational Design
[11:56]	Andrew Linden:	such that the apparent draw distance is very far
[11:56]	Andrew Linden:	but the render time is super fast
[11:56]	Jordan Merricks:	welcome back Rex, seems you still crash without sittin
[11:56]	Kitto Flora:	imposters for objects?
[11:56]	Jordan Merricks:	sitting*
[11:57]	Rex Cronon:	i just had another crash:(
[11:57]	Arawn Spitteler:	Sounds like Avatar Imposters, but those don't work, on my system
[11:57]	Rex Cronon:	thanks
[11:57]	StarSong Bright:	or is it possible to ONLY draw things closer than 64 meters and THEN work outwards from there? sorry if these are weird questions but its just not stuff you find in the wiki
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	yes, imposters or some other magic that would allow the user to not care about graphics settings details
[11:57]	Rex Cronon:	and i also had to enter my pass 10 time to login:(
[11:57]	Arawn Spitteler:	We have a problem in Spirit City, that others don't have their draw distance set to minimum, and it causes unwitting aesthetic disputes.
[11:58]	Arawn Spitteler:	What viewer you on, Rex?
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	possible in theory StarSong, but the figuring it out would have to be fast and correct
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	there are tradeoffs between fast and correct
[11:58]	Rex Cronon:	viewer: 1.21.5
[11:58]	Kitto Flora:	The 'interest list' that selects whats drawn, never seems to have worked right from day 1
[11:58]	Arawn Spitteler:	I'd suggest StarSong talk to Which, if she's going to attend Zero's Hour
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	the "interestlist" really needs work
[11:59]	Kitto Flora:	(I should say 'what the sim tells the client about')
[11:59]	StarSong Bright:	when is that one?
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	Doug Linden and I were looking at it last week or the week before
[11:59]	Arawn Spitteler:	I couldn't find Interest List, in the Wiki.
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	and realized/rememberd that it sucks in particular ways
[11:59]	Arawn Spitteler:	I should look again, and maybe stub
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	"interestlist" is an LL-ism
[12:00]	Kitto Flora wants to rewrite the ineterstlist system
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	the term we use to talk about the algorithms in the server that figure out what objects can be seen by yoru screens
[12:00]	StarSong Bright:	nods
[12:01]	StarSong Bright:	oh, i did notice on the latest RC for mac that everythign is rendering white - including people. no more clouds? no more gray? is that right?
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	There are a number of problems with the interestlist, however the overhaul is a big project.
[12:01]	Arawn Spitteler:	Much of that is figured Camera-Viewer side.
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	Doug and I were pondering if we should try to tackle it early next year
[12:01]	Arawn Spitteler:	Oepn Source?
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	I don't know much about what is going on in the RC StarSong
[12:02]	StarSong Bright:	oh great andrew, cant wait to see what you guys start on then.. rendering and textures are such a big thing
[12:02]	StarSong Bright:	kk no biggie, it was just something i noticed and hated so i am back to the nromal client now
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	I think maybe someone is working on the server-side texture pipeline right now
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	however I haven't heard anything about it in a few weeks
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	not sure what the status of that is
[12:02]	Simon Linden:	I've been in it a bit
[12:03]	Arawn Spitteler:	I think there's hope of seperating the textures from the sims, or something
[12:03]	StarSong Bright:	can they do that?
[12:03]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, that is one of the hopes Arawn
[12:03]	Kitto Flora:	Theres this wird thing in textures that the last inage frame(s) take so long to arrive. Very annoying
[12:03]	Simon Linden:	There are fixes in a branch awaiting merge, plus some work at pulling the texture loading off the sim
[12:03]	Simon Linden:	Yes, there's a bug (fixed in that branch) where the sim doesn't send enough data for lower-detail parts of the jpeg image
[12:04]	Andrew Linden:	Simon, is the pending merge branch maint-server-5? Or something else?
[12:04]	StarSong Bright:	and this business where when you spin in a circle the textures that loaded first are unloaded by the time you get back aroudn to them?
[12:04]	Kitto Flora:	lower detailed?? Of the fine detail?
[12:04]	Simon Linden:	It's another branch, lemme get the name...
[12:04]	Andrew Linden:	no, just curious
[12:04]	Simon Linden:	Yes Kitto - our images are jpeg2000, with several levels of detail
[12:04]	Arawn Spitteler:	Part of getting a product out, is getting feedback on priorities.
[12:04]	Kitto Flora:	Simon: Sure
[12:05]	Jordan Merricks:	oh, speaking of textures, would it be possible to add a flag on the texture upload process if a texture is bigger than 512 by 512 to ask a confirm message for not shrinking the texture to 512x512? perhaps a small info box saying the default is to reduce to 512x512, but still have the option to upload a larger image size?
[12:05]	Kitto Flora:	But the low detai larrives hfast. The fine detail takes for ever
[12:05]	Simon Linden:	The viewer asks for the low-level images first, but the sim sometimes doesn't send enough data to get that level.
[12:05]	StarSong Bright:	yes! i second jordon's motion! i hate when i see i have uploaded a 1024 when i didnt mean to
[12:05]	Simon Linden:	It breaks when you get to the 2nd highest level (one down from highest detail)
[12:05]	Kitto Flora:	Simon: exactly!
[12:06]	Kitto Flora:	But why do they split up the image file at all?
[12:06]	Jordan Merricks:	I hate how so many new designers think that a 1024 texture will give greater detail than a 512 if they're only applying it over a smaller frame anyways, creates so much unnecessary lag in textures overall
[12:06]	Andee Sweetwater:	ive encountered a technical issue....is that the topic?
[12:06]	Simon Linden:	It attempts to give you the lower detail images quickly so you can at least start to render somethign
[12:06]	Andee Sweetwater:	hi all
[12:06]	Andrew Linden:	Jordan, that idea would be a nice config setting if the image pipeline download was working better (as it was supposed to)
[12:06]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[12:07]	Jordan Merricks:	hi Andee
[12:07]	Simon Linden:	Hi Andee ... we're discussing simulator/region techincal issues
[12:07]	Andee Sweetwater:	ahh ok
[12:07]	Andrew Linden:	Sure Andee, mention your issue. That is the general category of the discussion.
[12:07]	Kitto Flora:	Simon: I think thats a good idea, but in practice is acually just annoying.
[12:07]	Simon Linden:	I'm not sure about the texture size (512x512) issues and how that works
[12:08]	Simon Linden:	yeah, I think it works well for a shopping mall with a zillion product images, but not for a lot of other stuff
[12:08]	Andrew Linden:	Ack. This hour is pretty much over.
[12:08]	Andrew Linden:	Any last minute issues... better mention them fast.
[12:08]	Arawn Spitteler:	Technically the next hour has begun, but we appreciate your patience.
[12:09]	Arawn Spitteler:	Eep! Might not be the hour for that, but it's certainly important somewhere.
[12:09]	Arawn Spitteler:	Which Viewer Version?
[12:09]	Andrew Linden:	I should mention again: I won't be here for office hours this Thursday.
[12:09]	Arawn Spitteler:	Tofurkey Day?
[12:09]	StarSong Bright:	oh i do have a question but not a suggestion. I know someone who has an OS, and has put a 1024x1024x100 sculpty centered in his sim so that he has mountains on the horizon. is that allowed? will it be lagging the server and its neighbors?
[12:09]	Simon Linden:	Or I
[12:10]	Simon Linden:	Wow, I'd love to see that :)
[12:10]	Jordan Merricks:	me too
[12:10]	Andrew Linden:	No StarSong, megaprim horizons are a supported misfeature ATM.
[12:10]	Arawn Spitteler:	I don't think that would be a problem. Megaprims ahve a poor rep[ute, in some quarters, but not a credibly poor repute.
[12:10]	Andrew Linden:	"sky boxes" they are also called
[12:11]	StarSong Bright:	ty
[12:11]	Andrew Linden:	ok, I've got to go
[12:11]	Andrew Linden:	thank you all for coming
[12:11]	Rex Cronon:	bye andrew
[12:11]	Andee Sweetwater:	bye andrew
[12:11]	Kitto Flora:	Grab your drimstick!
[12:11]	Rex Cronon:	bye everybody
[12:11]	Jordan Merricks:	yeah, I find that in most cases, megaprims don't really cause nearly as many problems as they're blamed for
[12:12]	Andee Sweetwater:	sorry i missed it....:((
[12:12]	Jordan Merricks:	bye andrew
[12:12]	Jordan Merricks:	oh can I get your Linden Bear Andrew?
[12:12]	Andee Sweetwater:	Arawn u want to fight?
[12:12]	Kitto Flora:	Luncytime!
[12:12]	Arawn Spitteler actually prefers message based venues, as convenient for discourse: Who'd be the person, for UI failures?
[12:13]	Jordan Merricks:	thank you
[12:13]	Simon Linden:	yep, time for food
[12:13]	Jordan Merricks:	Simon is that your bear over on the corner of the rail?