User:Meta Linden/Office Hours/2007 April 27

Tateru Nino: Ah, here we are.
Tateru Nino is Online
You: sorry folks, my 2nd machine crashed
You: Zee's on his way here. :)
Patchouli Woollahra: Torley, Meta and other Lindens with honking obvious offices, at least from a Map view xD
Tateru Nino: [10:01] Little Gray: i don't know if you can see the floating text above this object i rezed, but yesdays 24 hour volume is $537 ... according to the market data page, the volume was 50,111,771 [10:01] Meta Linden: I know less about the lindex metrics than about the other public figures, I don't have that much experience with financial exchanges. [10:01] Little Gray: well i can imagine that there are different total trade volumes .. there's lindex and then there's lindex and everything else too [10:02] Little Gray: but .. like many hours of the day, there are no trades? ... and my reporter indicates the usd monetary amounts are usually in the hundreds
Tateru Nino: Little Gray: yet i see other market data sites that proclaim hundreds of thousands of USD daily
Tateru Nino: Saves me tapping out a "Zee Linden discriminates against handicapped users" post ;)
Patchouli Woollahra: might be a lookup failure.
Patchouli Woollahra: or a race condition like you once told me about this sort of thing?
Zee Linden: Hello
Little Gray: hello Zee
Tateru Nino: Hello, Zee :)
Patchouli Woollahra blushes beneath their fur.
Daedalus Young: hello
Patchouli Woollahra: zomg, it's Zee!
Zee Linden: sorry i missed last week
Zee Linden: I am sooo looking forward to voice for this.
Zee Linden: I just got out of an inworld meeting with voice & its amazing for a larger group like this
Tateru Nino: How would I know what you were saying, Zee?
Patchouli Woollahra: voice is poor for multitasking.
Zee Linden: hehe
Patchouli Woollahra: People hold one conversation at a time in voice.
Zee Linden: Meta and are on a Linden Voice channel.
Patchouli Woollahra: They hold 50 on text.
Zee Linden: right now
Tateru Nino: A quarter of the people I know in SL are speech or hearing impaired. They came here because they were excluded when voice came to their virtual worlds.
Patchouli Woollahra has a voice that would cause severe suicide rates.
Patchouli Woollahra: that's a speech impairment.
Patchouli Woollahra: voice is also hard to log... but then, this isn't 'Bathtub hour with Brent Linden now, is it?"
Zee Linden: Little
Zee Linden: Meta just sent me the part of your question that I missed
Zee Linden: But let's start talking abotu the LIndex
Patchouli Woollahra: Yes, let's .
Wyn Galbraith notes that Voice is a good addition, though text should be as available for those who cannot use voice. :)
Zee Linden: Little could you ask your question again.
Tateru Nino: Agree, Wyn. Needs the text as well, otherwise participation is impossible.
Zee Linden: Ok, Littles question from before was about 24 hour volume
Zee Linden: right now that site says 24 hr volume was $206k
PierreLuc Linden is Online
Zee Linden: Any source that said it was higher than that was wrong.
Zee Linden: That's been roughly the average daily volume for some time.
You: Little is also hitting our feed site
Zee Linden: getting close to $6m per month.
Little Gray: im looking for the variable at lindex.php that has 206k
Zee Linden: We'll ahve to ask Peter that one & get back to you.
Zee Linden: so the question is where is the source in the PHP data for the 24 hour volume that matches the home page.
You: what's that url again, Little?
Little Gray: yes .. http://secondlife.com/httprequest/lindex.php
You: apologies. :\ machine switch
Patchouli Woollahra: Again? Someone use a bit of the Lindex to get her a better computer! xD
Zee Linden: I'll be less able to answer questions about that than about the economy in general & the trends over monthly periods.
Little Gray: im not soliciting the lindex im just tring to figure out more precisely the figures presented at http://secondlife.com/httprequest/lindex.php
Tateru Nino: My particular interest is actually retention subcategories and orientation metrics :)
You: while we dig into that, there were some other questions last week
You: ah, go ahead Tateru
Little Gray: thank you
Tateru Nino: No, let's get last week's questions sorted first. FIFO.
Tateru Nino is happy to wait.
Zee Linden: Meta's pulling up the wiki link for us
Zee Linden: for the q's from last week.
You: btw I log minutes on the wiki. The questions last week were: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Meta_Linden/Office_Hours/2007_April_20
Zee Linden: Anything anyone wants us to talk about that didn't get answered last week.
Little Gray: jesse malthus was a good kid
Zee Linden: April Land sales.
Zee Linden: Should be another solid month
Zee Linden: We have caught up on our deployment rates.
Zee Linden: We're putting up about 3 racks per week.
Zee Linden: Some of that is backlog catchup...
Zee Linden: The first couple weeks of april dipped a bit, but the rates of sale are now back up toward their recent highs from last month.
Zee Linden: On a weekly basis that is.
Zee Linden: Meta will have some new charts posted too.
Zee Linden: Tatero go ahead.
You: let's go to Tateru's questions while I pick through all of the search bot questions from last week :P
Little Gray: do one-time purchases of alt accounts count as a 'sale'?
Zee Linden: is there a place where we count sales?
Zee Linden: what do you mean sale?
You: as a sale? Not in the Lindex data?
Zee Linden accepted your inventory offer.
Little Gray: The first couple weeks of april dipped a bit, but the rates of sale are now back up toward their recent highs from last month.
Zee Linden: Oh, I was speaking of land volume in that sentence
Zee Linden: regions of land
Little Gray: kk
Zee Linden: we were breaking records each week all year
Zee Linden: Then in the beginning of april that dipped a bit
Zee Linden: but its nearing the old highs again
Patchouli Woollahra: Well, we can't be sustaining this sort of growth rate forever, right?
Zee Linden: Nope.
You: there was a question last week about whether all stats were up to date on http://secondlife.com/whatis/economy_stats.php last week
Zee Linden: Nothing very very good or very very bad lasts very very long. :)
Patchouli Woollahra: but the idea is to keep it going as long as possible, and make it sustainable when it stops.
You: and in fact I found a bug in the reporting of total L$ supply this week
Tateru Nino: Hourly signup rates have fallen sharply.
You: that has been fixed
Zee Linden: I think we saw a burst of growth from August
Zee Linden: (in premiums)
Zee Linden: through Feb
Zee Linden: with a peak in November.
Zee Linden: Our growth in November hit 39%
Zee Linden: for the monthly premiums.
Tateru Nino: Current growth in premium accounts is still quite impressive.
Patchouli Woollahra: there's a thought - do those signup rates include those made via thirdparty registrations using the thirdparty API?
Zee Linden: That kind of growth is unsustainable.
Zee Linden: That said, for th 24 months ending July last year
Zee Linden: the average growth was about 17% (that's gross adds)
Zee Linden: That number seems to be the sort of normal viral rate of growth
Zee Linden: at least that's how it looks to me in my financial model.
You: we're a little under 15% current MTD
Tateru Nino: Very high.
You: Wyn, you've been quiet. You must have questions. :)
Zee Linden: Let's talk about land buying bots
Tateru Nino: If you're feeling brave, Zee.
Patchouli Woollahra: They've been rampaging arround the grid a lot of late... there's been some pretty bad horror stories.
Zee Linden: We're working on a solution that I think everyone will like.
Zee Linden: Lots of problems with the current land store.
Tateru Nino: Thousands of dollars lost due to apparent user error, network protocol latency or UI bugs.
Little Gray: what kind of horror stories?
Zee Linden: I'm hoping that we can have a new auction system up and running this summer
Zee Linden: Pretty excited about it.
Patchouli Woollahra: Oh, basically some really unreasonable price settings...
Patchouli Woollahra: L$2000 for a entire mainland sim, anyone?
Patchouli Woollahra: nobody's exactly sure why it happens.
Zee Linden: We continue to push out mainland as fast as we can.
Zee Linden: Since our backlog began, the prices on the mainland doubled.
Zee Linden: because we weren't filling the demand
Zee Linden: Recently prices have started to trickle down with our increased deployment.
Zee Linden: I think if there was enough supply, some of the land bot issues wouldn't be as painful.
Zee Linden: But that said, we need a new auction system.
Zee Linden: And we'll get it.
Zee Linden: What else do you want to talk about?
Prokofy Neva: Zee, it appears as if the island sales are down, is that the case?
Prokofy Neva: is there a decrease in orders?
Zee Linden: I just covered that before you came in
You: we answered that one a little earlier
Prokofy Neva: ok sorry, I didn't see any notice up of your meeting
Patchouli Woollahra: The island sales going down was a temporary flaw, I mentioned.
Zee Linden: Record highs in March and each week all year
Zee Linden: until april
Patchouli Woollahra: it was a brief setback, but new land is being racked in at a faster rate to catch up, so it's recovered.
Zee Linden: Then down a bit in the first couple week of april, but now its back up.
Zee Linden: Not record highs though.
Zee Linden: But last week we deployed three full racks
Zee Linden: and I think we're caught up on the backlog.
Prokofy Neva: OK well another question I don't think you've covered is the Mystery of Second Life, for me, which is that only some 250,000 or so log in per month lately and spend more than $1 L, yet collectively, these people somehow miraculously spend $2 *million* US per *day*. Is there double entry accounting?
Zee Linden: Help me parse that question a bit.
Tateru Nino wonders what the landbots and the auction system have to do with each-other. Landbots don't buy at auction, and pulling land-prices down by supply does not mitigate the issues of user error or technical flaw that the landbots exploit.
Prokofy Neva: each month, you show that X number spend more than one Linden dollar inworld
Prokofy Neva: in the last month, it was 250,000 or so people spending at least a dollar
Prokofy Neva: yet each day, there is an expenditure of $2 million *US* per day
Prokofy Neva: so how can 250,000 people who spent one dollar or more manage to spend $2 million per day?
Prokofy Neva: it means that somehow there is double counting or triple counting
Zee Linden: Meta what were user to user transactions last month?
Prokofy Neva: what I send to my alt once is counted, then counted again as he sendsd to his alt, and then perhaps once again to Currency Linden and then again?
Patchouli Woollahra: that means each person spent about US$8/day on average, from a simplistic point of view...
Prokofy Neva: yet the average log on of 4-6 hours has expenditures of only $1500 I thought we were told about 3 months
Prokofy Neva: ago
Zee Linden: Let's look at it on a monthly basis.
Jeremy Linden is Online
Prokofy Neva: Is US$60 million a month spent? well not quite that, but it looks close to that
Zee Linden: ok
Wulf Nemeth: o.o
Prokofy Neva: Do you invest in the float that you have between the order to cash out US dollars and the final transfer of US dollars to PayPal?
Zee Linden: The number I look at is 9.8B in L$ transactions per user each month.
Zee Linden: I think its billion.
Zee Linden: I'm double checking
Little Gray: that kinda relates to my earlier question about many hours showing there's no trades, and when there are hours with trades, the volumes are usually in the low hundreds of usd and rarely over $1000 usd any given hour ... there are differences between lindex indices and overall metrics
Patchouli Woollahra: would those transactions in question involve ALL resident-to-resident transactions within SL?
Zee Linden: I think 9.8B L$ is about $35m USD
Zee Linden: So that seems like about $1m per day.
Prokofy Neva: ok well I'm just looking at the per day transactions on the website, but if you are saying it's more like $35m US per month
Zee Linden: Right now the site sayd $1.2m spent in the last 24 hours -
Zee Linden: so that's about right.
Prokofy Neva: then 35 million US divided by only 250,000 people spending more than a dollar per month still means some whopping per person expenditure
Prokofy Neva: it's often at $2 million
Zee Linden: So its not like a GDP number really though
Zee Linden: to your point.
Prokofy Neva: $140 US per person?
Zee Linden: A GDP number would try to net out redundant transactions.
Zee Linden: I give Meta L$ 1000 he gives me L$ 900 for whatever reason.
Zee Linden: A GDP number would net that out.
Zee Linden: to $100 L
Prokofy Neva: yes can you define what would be redundant/
Prokofy Neva: the definition of what redundant would be
Elle Linden is Online
Zee Linden: But our number would count it as L$ 1900
Zee Linden: We can't know what the net transactions are between users.
Patchouli Woollahra: How do we net out transactions like that in SL? it's not like there's a way to specify what type of transaction is conducted between two residents?
Zee Linden: No idea
Prokofy Neva: well dozens of times a day, someone attempts to pay a rental box with the incorrect amount, so I get $1000 coming in and $1000 going out again immediately, it's a false positive, or of course distribution of funds among alts
Zee Linden: I'm not sure if we count that or not.
Patchouli Woollahra: I would have to think that might be the point: the 9.88L$ we spend per month is more of a measurement of how liquid the economy is, I believe.
Patchouli Woollahra: it's not a GDP, it's a money velocity thing.
Prokofy Neva: but I'm not get $9.80 a month, I'm getting way more than that
Zee Linden: because that sounds like a failed transaction - but its possible that is counted in the numebrs
Zee Linden: Meta can find out about that one offline.
Prokofy Neva: it looks to me that you are claiming people spend far more than $9, more like $100 or more per person
Prokofy Neva: and maybe there are, there are very big ticket spenders of coruse
Zee Linden: Because Pro's object get L$1000
Zee Linden: and the object cant deliver the goods so it returns the payment
You: yes Prok that double-counting is counted
Prokofy Neva: but of the 250,000 who spent more than a dollar, most are not spending probably more than $20 US per month on SL
You: since the L$ actually changes hands
Zee Linden: Ok, lets step back.
Zee Linden: User to user transactions are NOT a good way to look at the Second Life economy.
Zee Linden: I ignore it.
Zee Linden: For all those reasons.
Zee Linden: I look at 2 things.
Zee Linden: Lindex Volume
Zee Linden: and the number of Paying residents.
Prokofy Neva: How to you get at the number of what people are willing to spend on SL per month? whether that is up or down? And in what expenditure categories? That's the quesiton.
You: expenditure categories is the hardest thing to determine
Zee Linden: IN the first quarter the lindex volume was $17m USD
Prokofy Neva: I wish SL econmoic statistics looked like wire service statistics , like "First home starts down this week"
Zee Linden: That's a solid number because there are material transaction fees.
Prokofy Neva: if there were figures that showed "prefabs are up" or "island rentals are up" or "classified expenditures were up"
Zee Linden: People don't game things when there are transaction fees.
Zee Linden: The other number is the number of paying residents.
Prokofy Neva: But Zee, Linden volume contains that staggering ONE MILLION US that your friend Supply Linden is spending
Zee Linden: Last month we had more than 100,000 residents who paid us on average more than $50
Prokofy Neva: of course he will have to spend half that this month after the casino cashouts
Little Gray: theoretically, a few big spenders could inflate the average per user payments to SL ... for example, the average donation of our chapters some 250k, is 80k because most income comes from just a few individual large donors
You: currently businesses and objects are not classified into clean categories. I can't accurately determine a prefab from bling shoes.
Zee Linden: We billed our residents well more than $5m USD
Zee Linden: That does not include lindex volume
Zee Linden: Lindex Volume was also in excess of $5m USD
Prokofy Neva: yes Meta I realize all that, there are no object tags, you could try to introduce such aq system, and most busiensses tag their own objects anyway so you could roughly sample it
Zee Linden: actually $7.2m USD
Prokofy Neva: Zee, again, how can you judge Linden volume, when Supply Linden sales are part of that?
You: roughly, yes, but we want clean non-double-counting categories
Patchouli Woollahra: Supply Linden is a economic stabiliser...
Prokofy Neva: Supply Linden is a wage devaluer.
Tateru Nino: People are buying those linden dollars, whether they come from residents or from Supply Linden, no?
Prokofy Neva: And that's why Supply should allow the price to float higher because people will sell more of stockpiled Lindens
Little Gray: but the usual one day Lindex sales is like yesteday's is, ll_1d_us$ 537.23
Zee Linden: In some respects when supply linden sells
Zee Linden: the money supply expands.
Patchouli Woollahra: A lot of L$ is spent and lost for good on stuff like file uploads... personal ratings (until recently), classifieds, place listings...
Zee Linden: If it didn't then
Zee Linden: the price would increase
Prokofy Neva: Basically, Zee, it comes down to this: who gets to make money here, you as Linden Lab, or we as the inworld businesses?
Zee Linden: and value would accrue to holders of L$
Zee Linden: but the economy would rapidly destabilize
Zee Linden: if there was an expectation of appreciation.
Zee Linden: or depreciation.
Zee Linden: Everyone would hold
Zee Linden: Or sell
Zee Linden: at once.
Prokofy Neva: The economyo didn't rapidly destabilize when GOM had the independently market-determined price of $4.25 per 1000 Lindens, it flourished.
Zee Linden: Neither is good.
Zee Linden: So LL charges some fees in L$
Prokofy Neva: I don't see how you can determine that.
Zee Linden: to reduce the supply
Prokofy Neva: IF your growth is as you state it
Prokofy Neva: IF there is this constant flood of new people and more goods and services in demand
Zee Linden: and then expands the supply in real time when necessary to stabilize the exchange rate.
Prokofy Neva: then the wages should rise at least somewhat
Zee Linden: Its actually, just like what China does to stabilize their exchange rate
Prokofy Neva: And China is an economic model you want to emulate???
Zee Linden: they buy and sell Yuan like we sink and souce L$
Prokofy Neva: Why reference China? is this a communist system?
Patchouli Woollahra: why not?
Zee Linden: But I'm sorry I have to go now. I'll be back next week.
Prokofy Neva: Because we didn't sign up for communism, Patchouli, but capitalism.
Zee Linden: and I'm looking forward to a more thorough discussion when we have voice for those so inclined to use it.
Patchouli Woollahra: for all their idealogical problems, guess who's bankrolling America's expansion?
Prokofy Neva: That is, they get to play state capitalism and make money, but unless you are a crony as in the Chinese system, you cannot succeed.
Tateru Nino: I think Prokofy's mixed up economics and ideology.
Zee Linden: Thanks again!
Zee Linden: Bye
Patchouli Woollahra once got hold of a US flag badge as part of her duties.
Prokofy Neva: Economics are always based on ideology, Tateru
Tateru Nino: Meta, do you still have a little time for some metrics questions?
You: I do
Prokofy Neva: Ideology always feels non-neutral merely because it's not YOUR ideology.
Tateru Nino: I can see that from what you say, PN.
Patchouli Woollahra: Guess what was printed on it? "Made in China".
Tateru Nino: Assuming that completion of registration constitutes a 'signup event'. What percentage of total signups never log in at least once? That number used to be tracked. Is it rising, falling or remaining steady at present? Are those registrations factored in to the population total?
Little Gray: i don't like the wires and the method of sound delivery (directly to ears) and sometimes hearing people spoils the sense that im talking to a racoon or large spider or something
Patchouli Woollahra: no such thing as a neutral ideology.
Prokofy Neva: china does not "bankroll" America's existence; America bankrolls China's transition from communism.
Prokofy Neva: AT least we're clear on what *your* ideology is now, Patchouli.
You: that's a good question Tateru. We do track that number
Tateru Nino: Sorry if these questions are a bit on the compound side. Lag forces me to prepare them.
You: but we don't report them
You: we currently are experiencing some pushes of fraudulent signups
Patchouli Woollahra: so you want to say, but the amount of deficit America has been rolling on several fronts has had to come from somewhere.
You: that we don't want to report publicly on as we're working on closing those gaps
Tateru Nino: I understand that not all of the metrics may be numbers that one would desire to release. I'll mention the others I'm interested in.
You: but the signup figures have been affected
Patchouli Woollahra: and for what it's worth, I'm a bit of a capitalist. but I do have my limits.
Prokofy Neva: No, Patchouli, that's silly, that's just some extremist Internet meme you've picked up somewhere.
Tateru Nino: Ah! That explains a LOT!
Tateru Nino: I'm also interested in the percentages of new residents leaving the orientation islands, and the percentage leaving Help Islands. Those numbers interest me on a week-by-week basis, really, as the Help Islands were never intended to be used as they are presently configured.
Patchouli Woollahra: not really.
Tateru Nino: Related, but not directly derivable from that is the number of new residents that never leave the Orientation Island/Help island estates.
You: yes we're paying LOTS of attention to the % leaving OI
Little Gray: china could stop investing in America
Tateru Nino: Is it a number that can be shared?
Prokofy Neva: Amount of time before a person leaving Orientation island spends above $100.
You: again, not reporting those publicly, but I've been working on a project to share those stats with the volunteer teams tied into the new OI experiences
Prokofy Neva: MEta, why would volunteer teams get special access to LL's numbers? They aren't often even in business.
You: there are several different OI experiences running in parallel live right now
Prokofy Neva: Is that what you're saying?
Patchouli Woollahra: Prokofy, she's just giving people figures they need to optimise the experience.
Tateru Nino nods. The Help Islands are of particular concern, because they age rapidly, especially with the recent updates of OI.
Prokofy Neva: Patchouli, let her answer please?
Prokofy Neva: We all work at retaining newbie users as hard as we can.
Tateru Nino: In their current configuration they might almost be better done away with.
Prokofy Neva: We need to have really publicly available feedback about what is working and not working
You: some baseline with the old OI, some new OI with the HUD, and some with volunteer teams. The volunteer teams *will* get access to the numbers of the islands that they are affecting. Not teh totals
Prokofy Neva: whether these considerably revised and expensively built OIs work or not
Prokofy Neva: whether the end of Help as it was works or not
Prokofy Neva: why do volunteers get access to numbers and not the public????
Prokofy Neva: what's your thinking on that?
Prokofy Neva: are they a new privileged class in SL?
You: the new OI makes a measurable difference in resident experience in several key ways
You: L$ spend in 24 hrs, rate of buying land
Prokofy Neva: the overall traffic numbers on infohubs are down in recent weeks
You: and # of hrs spent inworld
Prokofy Neva: what is that measurable difference then, can you give some numbers?
Prokofy Neva: or are you saying that you will only give these numbers to Tateru of just one selected media outlet, just because she happens to have cleared the vetting to become an SL volunteer and entered a privileged class of those informed more specially than the public?
You: it is my belief that the volunteer teams putting the effort in to contribute to the new user experience should be able to see the results of their work.
Prokofy Neva: Seriously Meta, I really want to hear you state your rationale for giving some classes of SL users more information than others, which puts them at an advantage.
Tateru Nino: I'm not a volunteer, Prok. Or don't you pay any attention?
Patchouli Woollahra: Where does that come from? Tateru has ceased all association with the Volunteer corps since six months ago.
Tateru Nino: Longer, Patchi.
Prokofy Neva: well can you grasp that many people help newbies and serve the population of newbies outside your officialyl veted "volunteer class"?
Prokofy Neva: you can bet that Tateru will manage to get those numbers vouchsafed to the volunteer class.
Prokofy Neva: Yes I do pay attention, and I doubt that removes you from privileged information channels
Tateru Nino: I'm here trying to get the numbers the same way you are, Prok. Stop trying to be insulting.
You: sure, but I have no way of measuring those numbers accurately. With the orientation islands, I have actual statistically valid A/B comparisons
Prokofy Neva: I just would like to hear *from the Linden present here and not you* what their thinking is on creating a special class of privileged information receivers.
Prokofy Neva: Why can't we all see the results of their work, Meta, to judge whether it is an effective system?
Prokofy Neva: I would submit it is not an effective system
Prokofy Neva: you have had it for many years, and retention is not increasing
You: the point of information sharing is not so that anyone involved can "judge" the success. Currently the only ones making that call are the Lindens. What we're doing is sharing information on the successes that are happening.
Prokofy Neva: why can't the public judge?
Patchouli Woollahra: he wants information on the failures that are happening as well, apparently.
Prokofy Neva: I'd like to see what works, as I see a system in place not working that retains only 10 p ercent of sign-ups
Prokofy Neva: I want SL to succeed in retaining sign-ups
Prokofy Neva: I work hard at retaining them myself in my little sphere as I have numerous newbie customers
Prokofy Neva: and I'm interesetd in reducing that crash-out level that they all have, the frustration
You: Judging already happens, in the absence of actual statistical facts. There is a LOT of information that needs to be shared to look at the true successes, and unfortunately, much of it is at such a detailed level that it intrudes in people's privacy
Prokofy Neva: I have polls everywhere about the newbie experience, and most complain there are no jobs, not that some OI didn't teach them to build
Khamon Fate: ha ha ha we're up to FAB
You: so we will *always* protect our residents privacy over being transparent.
Prokofy Neva: Meta, I find that incredible to believe, that volunteers can get information about successes in the aggregate but all of a sudden the rest of us are told it's an invasion of privacy? You don't have to invade privacy
Wyn Galbraith found none of that true in her newbie experience.
Prokofy Neva: That's ridiculous Meta, surely you can't invoke privacy about the AGGREGATE NUMBERS of those leaving OI or not
Prokofy Neva: ?
You: I can give you one example.
You: specifically, doing an A/B analysis of land purchases within 24 hrs inworld
Prokofy Neva: If you want to say those numbers are proprietary, for your business at LL, then say so.
Prokofy Neva: But by saying that your filtered and vetted volunteer systems get the numbers and no on else can, you have removed the argumentatino that they are proprietary, unless of course they all sign NDAs.
You: apologies if I wasn't clear
You: we are not sharing all of the information with the volunteers.
Prokofy Neva: that the volunteers are becoming a privileged class is already clear, now that they are in an invitation-only group to determine even who gets certified in SL
Prokofy Neva: that's quite a racket shaping up there
You: we are sharing information with them specifically about what metrics they are successfully impacting, so that the best practices can be codified and repeated
You: for example:
Patchouli Woollahra: That's not truem Prokofy... SL Certification is an open effort.
Wyn Galbraith smiles at Meta, "I came to learn more about the metrics and sharing info, not to hear one user complain about the system. So I'll be going now, I have other things to do. Thanks for the meeting. I'll come again.
Prokofy Neva: ok why can't that information, which is of use to the public, not all of whom are in the vetted volunteers group, be shared?
Wyn Galbraith: Nice meeting you all.
Tateru Nino: I'm not seeing any point here either, Wyn.
Patchouli Woollahra: if you feel that you have something to contribute in the fields under considration now and in the future on SL knowledge, you should add your name to the SL Certification list.
Wyn Galbraith: keyboard
Patchouli Woollahra winks.
Prokofy Neva: I know what my public opinion polls give me about the newbie experience, that they need jobs and recommendations of places to go, so I try to supply info about both
Prokofy Neva: but what are you getting from your metrics? Does buying land make them stay or leave in frustration?
You: Good job, Team A, whatever you are doing on your island is getting new residents to more successfully buy objects in their 1st 24 hrs.
Prokofy Neva: Wyn, we're trying to get information out of the Newspeak into something sensible here, that's all.
You: the metrics that I have are for tens of thousands of residents across several weeks
Tateru Nino: And we just got it.
Prokofy Neva: OK, so *what is it that they do that makes people spend*????
Patchouli Woollahra: Camping chairs?
Wyn Galbraith: All I hear is your complaints. I was a newbie once too. SL is what you make of it. I'm just tried of hearing you complain, there's nothing constructive in it.
Tateru Nino: Prokofy's afraid.
You: that is exactly where you get into individual private information.
Prokofy Neva: I'm nto complainnig, I'm trying to get an answer to several simple questions
Prokofy Neva: I'm not "afraid," I"m trying to get some rational explanations here.
Wyn Galbraith: Whatever.
Tateru Nino: You got them. Perhaps you should scroll back and read them.
You: I do think you asked an interesting question earlier, Prok, if I can go back to that one briefly?
Prokofy Neva: Why can't information given to one class of people be made available/
Prokofy Neva: well gosh Meta, pick and chose among my questions and try to use behaviour modification, that's always effective : )
You: about categories of purchases. I think that information would be useful for a lot of business owners
Little Gray: can anyone become one of these volunteers just like they apparently now can be added to SL Certifcation Devs?
Patchouli Woollahra: yes it would.
Prokofy Neva: And Patchouli, no, the certification system is not "open," you can log in and comment, but you need an invitation to join the group, and that is a vetting process that is very subjective
Prokofy Neva: no they cannot be just added as we've seen, the group was even hidden until I cmoplained that they need to open it up if they want credibility
Prokofy Neva: and now we see that a lot of people joined it without skills or any sort, just to be on board on something they view as politically important to control the economy.
Patchouli Woollahra: the vetting has to be subjective, we can't afford to have choads or freebs on board.
Prokofy Neva: Um, choads, yes, that's Corey linden's term. And what are choads?
Prokofy Neva: People you don't like?
Patchouli Woollahra: the people who have gotten on board are people with a proven track record in SL in at least one field.
You: the certification program hasn't even been designed yet- all that's happening is that a team of people are giving their input as to what should be involved. And yes, anyone can apply to be a volunteer. I do not know exactly what the criteria is for participation, besides a friendly and helpful demeanor.
Prokofy Neva: well who decides a thing like that???
Prokofy Neva: People who may be more skilled than you so you are jealously barring their entry?
Prokofy Neva: what is this, There???
Patchouli Woollahra: Well, Aimee's a lot more skilled than me with a dozen things.
Patchouli Woollahra: Nobody's banning her.
Prokofy Neva: *rolls eyes*
Patchouli Woollahra: This is not There.
Little Gray: heh
Patchouli Woollahra: SL remains committed to open content generation.
Prokofy Neva: it will become more like There once you have essentially a content-licensing committee hiding behind a skills certification committee
Patchouli Woollahra: all this certification does, in the eventual implementation is say: "Yes, this guy DEFININTELY KNOWS HOW TO (do this)"
Patchouli Woollahra: just bvecause you do not have it does not mean you don't have the chops.
You: and supporting inworld businesses finding ways to succeed.
Prokofy Neva: but I want to ask Meta again: do you realize that the economy that is filled with newbies, has businesses that serve the newbies outside your volunteer matrix, that also should be getting this information?
Patchouli Woollahra: it is a mere formalisation of knowledge.
Prokofy Neva: can you understand there is a public to serve here, outside your own development group?
You: Prok, I'm more for transparency than the average linden, as long as it serves a purpose that will materially contribute to success of the grid
You: and not just be fodder for criticism.
Prokofy Neva: Ok, let me try asking that another way: do you comprehend that "the success of the grid" isn't only about your own company's success, and the succses of your chosen dev partners?
Prokofy Neva: or do you not view it as a public matter?
You: absolutely.
Prokofy Neva: ok then
Little Gray: if there's just a hint of a development group as described by Prok, could the members' names be disclosed so residents can bribe or extort the information from them?
Prokofy Neva: i fyou can conceive of SL as a public matter
Prokofy Neva: not just the provence of your little company and your little friends
You: I am first and foremost a resident and business operator and simowner here actually. I am only recently also a Linden.
Prokofy Neva: can the people who pay 80 percent of your bottom line, the inworld businesses and general public of Second Life, be given information, too?
Prokofy Neva: or are we chopped liver?
Prokofy Neva: can you grasp that?
You: absolutely- if in any way it will contribute to their business succeeding. Can you help me understand how you seeing OI stats will change your behaviours and make your business more successful?
Prokofy Neva: My tier pays your salary, Meta Linden. Why can't I ahve the information that some fanboyz suckup in the Tatero Cult gets?
Tateru Nino: What exactly are you accusing me of, Prokofy?
Patchouli Woollahra: Let's get this straight...
Prokofy Neva: I actually don'to have to do a thing to get newbies to come to my business in more droves than I can handle them
Patchouli Woollahra: Tateru had zero control over the Cult.
Patchouli Woollahra: In fact, she tried to STOP them.
Patchouli Woollahra: but you know how fans are.
Prokofy Neva: but I also make it a matter of public service to give them subsidized rentals and free help and such
Prokofy Neva: and i see that people SKIP OI and rightly so
Prokofy Neva: in fact I'd love to see the metrics on how those who skip OI completely do better
Patchouli Woollahra: they don't skip OI.
Prokofy Neva: especially if they land with friends they had or make inSL
Prokofy Neva: so I'd like to see that number -- how many SKIP and end up in fact staying and logging beyind 30 days?
Patchouli Woollahra: We occasionally have crashes... and more often than not, they showed up on Help Request asking for a TP back home.
Prokofy Neva: to see if that perceptino is true
Patchouli Woollahra: to OI and HI.
Prokofy Neva: then I'd like to see what makes people last, does studying a land purchasing tutorial and buying land help them last?
Patchouli Woollahra: or wind up coming down to The Shelter a little regretfully. or NCi.
Tateru Nino: Prokofy, if you're going to allude to wrongdoing on my part, just come out and say it. Don't timidly tiptoe around.
Prokofy Neva: and I don't see why I'd have to have some sort of metric to illustrate how this personally helps my business, it's a generic questino that the public should know
Prokofy Neva: Save it for the forums, Tatero.
You: well no one skips. it's all a matter of how much time they spend. Some need longer than others. the numbers are all in aggregate. what we see is, residents who complete the new OI, all 4 steps, are more successful, in aggregate, than those who do not.
Prokofy Neva: Meta, but they do skip, they just don't stay, they fly away.
Patchouli Woollahra: Prokofy... what's Linden Labs' full name?
Prokofy Neva: are you forcing them to stay now?
Prokofy Neva: can you say *how much* more successful? 10 percent? 2 percent?
You: that is part of the A/B/C test. Some new residents are not offered a way out until they complete all 4 steps. That island in particular is showing great success.
Prokofy Neva: You are forcing people to stay on the OI?
You: the success in percentage varies by metric, and by age of resident, over time.
Prokofy Neva: I'd like to see the percentage of people who, upon seeing they are forced to stay on the OI, never log back in.
Little Gray: i think its Linden Develop Labs, Inc. .. lemmie check
You: the overall stats on those who "never log back in" of course also changes over time.
You: sometimes we don't see someone back for a while
Patchouli Woollahra: does it say 'public' anywhere, Gray?
Khamon Fate: Linden Lab is a division of Linden Research Inc.
You: Well I'm 20 minutes over my meeting time. I have these updated charts to get out. Next week I'd like to focus on questions from more participants, as well.
Patchouli Woollahra: no 'public'.
Daedalus Young: thx Meta
You: I appreciate everyone's time, as always
Prokofy Neva: thanks
Prokofy Neva: I am more worried than ever about what SL is becoming.
Khamon Fate: Thanks for hosting Meta

User:Meta Linden/Office Hours/2007 April 27

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