User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2008 12 29

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[11:01]	Helena Lycia:	I guess no one is going to show (apart from us)
[11:01]	Helena Lycia:	Oh
[11:01]	Helena Lycia:	Typed too soon :)
[11:02]	Helena Lycia:	Hello
[11:02]	Arawn Spitteler:	Andrew? You made it! I thought this was going to be Simon Only
[11:03]	Wolfhaven Teleportation HUD v3.0 is Ready
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	Yup, I made it to this one.
[11:03]	Rex Cronon:	hello everybody
[11:03]	Collision Detector:	4
[11:03]	Collision Detector:	4
[11:03]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hi, Kitto, Rex, say hello to the nice purple dragon.
[11:03]	Rex Cronon:	hiii...
[11:03]	Kitto Flora:	Hello everyone
[11:04]	Rex Cronon:	oh. i have 2 take shield off:)
[11:04]	Arawn Spitteler:	There was discussion, of how to detect avatars in a sim, so I built this block.
[11:04]	Arawn Spitteler:	brb, I hope.
[11:04]	Andrew Linden:	ok I just fixed my wireless keyboard
[11:04]	Andrew Linden crosses fingers and hopes it lasts through the hour.
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	Arawn, what does the block do?
[11:05]	Kitto Flora:	Hi Simon
[11:05]	Helena Lycia:	I think he poofed
[11:06]	Rex Cronon:	i think he is scanning the sim
[11:06]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[11:06]	Simon Linden:	Hi - mega slow viewer, gonna re-log
[11:06]	Rex Cronon:	yeap. u were rubberbanding simon
[11:07]	Sindy Tsure:	hiya all
[11:07]	Simon Linden:	that's much better
[11:07]	Rex Cronon:	hi sindy
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	alright... announcements
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	1.24.10 just finished deploying this morning
[11:08]	Sindy Tsure claps
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	hrm... perhaps I should read the public announcement on that one...
[11:08]	Rex Cronon:	wasn't ll trying to deploy 1.25?
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, we tried to deploy 1.25 several times
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	the news on that is...
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	we think the blockers from the last deploy attempt are fixed, but we need to test
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	and what with the holidays and many people gone, we decided to wait until after the new year
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	there was rumor about some other blocker, but they found that the problem has been around for a while, so it doesn't block 1.25 -- we'll just have to fix it asap
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	so naturally, you can expect a 1.25.7 or 8 soon after 1.25.6
[11:11]	Rex Cronon:	i am a little confused. why did u have 2 deploy 1.24.10?
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	(I think 1.25 is already around .6, not 100% sure)
[11:11]	Sindy Tsure:	it did deply, rex.. that's the one that just went live
[11:12]	Gaius Goodliffe:	1.25.3 is on the calendar for mid-January (12th-19th) according to the Google Calendar here: http://status.secondlifegrid.net/
[11:12]	Sindy Tsure:	hi skate
[11:12]	skate Eel:	hi
[11:12]	Sindy Tsure:	1.25 must have a record number of changes in it.. 1.24's been in the way for a loooong time!
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	The reason for 1.24.10 is to support "Homesteads"
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	which had a deadline of Jan 5th.
[11:13]	Sindy Tsure:	oh.. 'why did'.. sorry, rex.. i think it was for the new homestead sim support
[11:13]	Sindy Tsure:	er.. yeah.. what andrew says
[11:13]	Sindy Tsure:	of course
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	As per that link that Gaius posted: http://status.secondlifegrid.net/
[11:14]	Kitto Flora:	Any info yet on what, exactly, 'homesteads' are?
[11:14]	Rex Cronon:	oh, ok. that means 1.25 will suport it too
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	Alas, I am intentionally ignorant of what "Homestead" actually means
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	I've been too busy to pay attention to that project.
[11:14]	Sindy Tsure:	they sound like the old openspace product to me but with enforced limits..
[11:15]	Gaius Goodliffe nods.
[11:15]	Sindy Tsure:	on scripts & avatar counts
[11:15]	Simon Linden:	Homesteads are OpenSpace sims basically
[11:15]	Helena Lycia:	The blog says what the prim & agent limits will be for homestead and OS but no announcemtns yet that I have seen saying what scripting limits will be in place
[11:15]	Simon Linden:	Real openspaces are going to have more strict prim limits
[11:15]	Phli Foxchase:	so Andrew, are you still working on mega prims ?
[11:15]	Sindy Tsure ducks!
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	Phli, I want to work on megaprims, but have made zero to little progress toward them.
[11:15]	Kitto Flora:	Prims and agents are not the problem
[11:16]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Unfortunately, we STILL don't have a cheap sim you can use for real openspace. (The new stricter openspaces are still too expensive for use as just a bit of ocean...)
[11:16]	Kitto Flora:	Its scripts thats the problem
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	There have been other projects that have higher priority, unfortunately.
[11:16]	Sindy Tsure:	lots want to know about script limits, helena.. i think that's more Babbage's gig, though
[11:16]	Rex Cronon:	they r big but hard 2 rich:)
[11:16]	Helena Lycia:	I don't want to know
[11:17]	Gaius Goodliffe:	What would be really nice is if a sim could just support sailing out beyond 256m...
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	I've finished part of the internal tools project I've been working on
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	and will be switching for a few weeks to fixing bugs
[11:17]	Phli Foxchase:	waht tools ?
[11:17]	Phli Foxchase:	what*
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	however, I'm already slated to work on some login problems
[11:17]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Oh yay! Bugfixes!
[11:18]	skate Eel:	yes i couldn't login yestday
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	which are being escalated by our operations team
[11:18]	Sindy Tsure:	can you talk about the login problems? things seem pretty good when the grid is happy
[11:18]	Simon Linden:	FWIW I pinged our land guru on the 'large-sim' question ... I figure if we can get the marketing/business guys excited about that, then they will let us engineers work on the fun stuff :)
[11:18]	Gaius Goodliffe:	w00t!
[11:18]	Sindy Tsure:	that'd be very cool, simon
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	The problems with login are related to when the database is NOT happy
[11:18]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I'd happily pay a little extra to have a sim with more sailing/flying space.
[11:19]	Gaius Goodliffe:	That'd be better than another sim -- no sim transition issues at the border
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	basically, when the database falls down, our login system does not play well, and further hammers the database
[11:19]	Simon Linden:	No promises, but it's a different strategy to try and get projects moving along
[11:19]	Helena Lycia:	The people where I hang out would love large sims to bits
[11:19]	Sindy Tsure:	oh.. so it's not as much getting people in but doing less damage when they can't get in?
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	What land guru would that be Simon?
[11:20]	Simon Linden:	Jack
[11:20]	Helena Lycia:	More space to swim/sail/fly without rubberbanding to death on vehicles or other nastiness
[11:21]	Kitto Flora:	Does the asset db get corrupt stuff in it due to an error in the sim code?
[11:21]	Simon Linden:	Right - move around in a bigger space without region crossings
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	yes Sindy, hopefully less intensive downtimes for login when the database is having problems
[11:21]	Simon Linden:	Kitto - do you have a specific bug you're talking about?
[11:21]	Helena Lycia:	wb Arawn
[11:21]	Kitto Flora:	Simmon: No. Generality
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, there have been many cases where the assets are messed up by simulator bugs in the past.
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	I don't know of any major problems right now.
[11:22]	Helena Lycia:	I have a physics/vehcile question...
[11:22]	Helena Lycia:	Does Havok get tweaked by LL from time-to-time without being announced? (There appear to be differences with the latest server version)
[11:22]	Kitto Flora:	Well, there was one yesterday :)
[11:22]	Simon Linden:	Well, it's certainly possible for a bug in the sim to mess up the DB, but I don't know of any open problems like that
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	We haven't tweaked the Havok physics engine in several months.
[11:22]	Helena Lycia:	Weird
[11:23]	Helena Lycia:	Something definitely seems different
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	No major changes there since... summer, and most of those would be considered bug fixes
[11:23]	Sindy Tsure:	different how?
[11:23]	Helena Lycia:	Was hopping between sims with different server versions yesterday and could definitely see something
[11:23]	Simon Linden:	Yesterday I think there was some network problems with one of the hosting companies
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	some of which are still in 1.25
[11:23]	Kitto Flora:	I have not seen my vehicles running differently between ...9 and ...10
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	yes, Helena what kinds of differences are you talking about?
[11:24]	Helena Lycia:	Something specific to a vehicle I've been working on... and angular motor seemed less effective on the new 1.24 server
[11:24]	Arawn Spitteler:	Might have been something like available prim rights, etc.
[11:24]	skate Eel:	i couldn't log in yesterday not even with the newest viewer
[11:24]	Kitto Flora:	Oh well... thats interesting
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	Helena, this was on the main grid? Or the preview?
[11:24]	Kitto Flora:	Maybe I have....
[11:24]	Helena Lycia:	I noticed it 2 days ago but checked again when there was less lag on the sims in question
[11:24]	Helena Lycia:	Main grid
[11:25]	Helena Lycia:	Prot Caledon v's Limbo
[11:25]	Helena Lycia:	(sims)
[11:25]	Helena Lycia:	Port Caledon
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	There were no physics engine changes in 1.24.10 that I know of, and I strongly doubt there were any.
[11:25]	Kitto Flora:	If .10 is deployed to all sims we now cannot compare ..9 to .10
[11:26]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Oh, I think I've seen the angular motor issue. I have airships that can't turn unless the linear motor is also running. The impluse isn;t strong enouhg otherwise. It turns a little and stops...
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	If it is a lag comparison then there are many ways in which two regions could differ.
[11:26]	Sindy Tsure:	i've noticed that scripted physical stuff seems to be more effected by lag over the last month or 3..
[11:26]	Helena Lycia:	Does physics get easily affected by other loads on the sim? Could that be it, different resources avaialbel?
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm...
[11:26]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I remember I had the same problem in beta, but it disappeared, but lately it's been back again.
[11:26]	Helena Lycia:	It was only a minor different, it's just the this particular vehicle's useage is sensitive to changes
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	Physics slows down when the simulator is lagged, so effective object speeds get slower.
[11:27]	Helena Lycia:	As I said, I revisited Port Caledon yesterday morning when it was quiet to see if the problem went away
[11:27]	Gaius Goodliffe:	That could be the issue. It's like an impulse that's normally just barely strong enough becomes not strong enough to move it any,ore.
[11:27]	Gaius Goodliffe:	*anymore
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	Helena, is your vehicle sensitive to script execution speed?
[11:27]	Kitto Flora:	I was setting up a raft vehicle yesterday, it uses angular motor. It seemed to be turning slower than I thought it used to - its a special that I dont sell, therefore dont test often.
[11:28]	Helena Lycia:	It's a ground vehicle doing things you probably shouldn't be doing in a ground vehicle (like walking on ceilings) I'm guessing that makes it very sensitive to subtle changes in phys simulator
[11:29]	Andrew Linden:	No, not really
[11:29]	Gaius Goodliffe:	The funny thing is, in my case, it turns just fine as long as it's moving. It's only if you try to turn while not moving at all that the same impulse that turns it while moving gets squelched when it's holding still
[11:29]	Andrew Linden:	oh wait... yeah, there are some subtle stuff in there
[11:29]	Andrew Linden:	for ground vehicles
[11:30]	Helena Lycia:	A vehicle moving on vertical or inverted prim surfaces does behave very inconsistently... I have another question regarding that
[11:30]	Helena Lycia:	Ah
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	I would expect a ground vehicle to have some problems at vetical or upside down orientations
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	that is, when sliding on vetical or upside down surfaces
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	but nothing there changed in 1.24.10
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	s/vetical/vertical/
[11:31]	Helena Lycia:	The other odd feature I've noticed is that sometimes they don't slide at all, just stick in place on a perfectly smooth surface
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	stick in place when under impulse?
[11:32]	Helena Lycia:	My theory is that the physics simulator gets affected but other activities on the sim and there's nothing I can do about it but I wanted confirmation
[11:32]	Helena Lycia:	Yep
[11:32]	Kitto Flora:	Did Andrew of Simon manage to get sim log data for the times when Railcars vanished?
[11:32]	Helena Lycia:	If you ever want a dragon ride climbing some buildings I can show you what happens
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	I'd have to witness it... there are some problems that could cause that to happen
[11:32]	skate Eel:	i have to go hope to see you all later and have a happy new year
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	such as extreme lag
[11:33]	Sindy Tsure:	cya, skate! you too!
[11:33]	Simon Linden:	Sorry Kitto, I didn't get the logs
[11:33]	Helena Lycia:	I can't spot anything different, it just seems to happen randomly although more likely when the sim is busy
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, I was unable to get the log data -- no time.
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	er... too busy at the time.
[11:33]	Helena Lycia:	But I can demo it if you have the time sometime
[11:34]	Kitto Flora:	Well - is this to be another 'never going to be fixed' thing?
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	send me one more report and I'll try to squeeze it in
[11:34]	Kitto Flora:	Ah ok
[11:34]	Kitto Flora:	Lost one in the last 8 hours
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	as I mentioned, the report has to be less than 7 days old
[11:34]	Kitto Flora:	But one sim was upped - have to see if the times coincide. If not, its another loss
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	we rotate most logs only out to 7 days
[11:35]	Simon Linden:	That recent one should still be good -- what regions?
[11:35]	Kitto Flora:	The report was < 8 hours old - all three of them :)
[11:35]	Kitto Flora:	Wish/Afterlife
[11:35]	Simon Linden:	And it happened within the last 8 hours from now?
[11:35]	Kitto Flora:	Yes
[11:36]	Simon Linden:	OK, I"ll go grab the logs
[11:36]	Kitto Flora:	Er - hold on
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	yes but... some other logs are lost after only three days, Simon. Do we know which host was running Wish/Afterlife that long ago?
[11:36]	Kitto Flora:	Las 11:36
[11:36]	Kitto Flora:	As it was ok at midnight
[11:36]	Kitto Flora:	We are at 11am + now
[11:36]	Kitto Flora:	But
[11:37]	Kitto Flora:	I have to check the track logger that tells me withing 4 minutes of when it went
[11:37]	Andrew Linden:	logs are actually rotated around 05:30 in the morning, so early morning events fall into "yesterays" logs
[11:37]	Kitto Flora:	and compare that to the sim restart time for the .10 update
[11:37]	Kitto Flora:	If the times coincide - forget it
[11:37]	Kitto Flora:	If not - its an 'event'
[11:37]	Simon Linden:	I'll look at when they got restarted
[11:37]	Sindy Tsure:	they care about sim restarts?
[11:37]	Sindy Tsure:	the trains, not the sims
[11:38]	Kitto Flora:	A sim restart can 'eat' a vehicle
[11:38]	Simon Linden:	It can move the region to a new host, so the log stays behind
[11:38]	Kitto Flora:	AH
[11:38]	Sindy Tsure:	never knew that a restart could eat a vehicle.. :(
[11:38]	Kitto Flora:	I have a Railcar in L&F
[11:38]	Sindy Tsure:	i think prospero has said the rolling restarts are careful to try and come up on the same host
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	well, a restart could lose content in general, but shouldn't focus on vehicles in particular
[11:39]	Arawn Spitteler:	Could the logs be pulled, by UUID?
[11:39]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I believe the grid sustains itself on a steady diet of vehicles.
[11:39]	Sindy Tsure:	lol@gaius
[11:39]	Kitto Flora:	That indicates it probably went off world when the sim resatrt
[11:39]	Kitto Flora:	There are vehicles that are crossing sim boundary
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	yes Arwan, but the process is not very efficient.
[11:39]	Rex Cronon:	it needs the screws:)
[11:40]	Kitto Flora:	If the sim goes down right when the vehicle is crossing then the vehicle will go off world. and IF things work right i t then gets returned
[11:40]	Kitto Flora:	I got a return
[11:40]	Gaius Goodliffe:	At least, since Havok4, none of my vehicles have literally exploded while crossing sim boundries. XD
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	oh hrm...
[11:40]	Arawn Spitteler:	Could the sim be restarting, when another sim thinks vehicles can be transfered over?
[11:40]	Kitto Flora:	6:14AM today
[11:40]	Kitto Flora:	Arawan: Right
[11:40]	Helena Lycia:	I've had passengers scattered over multiple sims since H4
[11:41]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Oh yeah, throwing people around still happens. But the vehicle at least stays linked together. XD
[11:41]	Sindy Tsure mumbles "svc-22" then shuts up again
[11:41]	Kitto Flora:	^:56 AM ras the sim reestart
[11:41]	Kitto Flora:	6:56
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, the event at 06:14 today was what? A vehicle returned during the rolling update?
[11:41]	Helena Lycia:	Well my vehicles stays together as an object but sometimes the scripts are completely weirded out - have to rez a new one
[11:42]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew yes
[11:42]	Gaius Goodliffe:	(Mumbles about SVC-34, on the topic of very old bugs...)
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, which region?
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	(Andrew has memorized SVC-22, but has forgoten what SVC-34 was about)
[11:42]	Simon Linden:	Afterlife got restarted but it stayed on the same host, so the info should be OK
[11:42]	Kitto Flora:	By the signals and position logger it was leaving AfterLife and entering Wish
[11:42]	Sindy Tsure:	svc-34: right-click freezes vehicles
[11:42]	Arawn Spitteler recalls that svc-22 is about vehicles arriving, with pasengers following, but doesn't know svc-34
[11:43]	Gaius Goodliffe:	SVC-34 is what makes my plane fall out of the sky since I implemented realistic stall behavior -- someone right clicks my plane, I no longer have wind over the control surfaces, instant splash into the drink. :p
[11:43]	Sindy Tsure:	as a land owner that sometimes gets griefed by dorks in vehicles, i hereby anti-vote for svc-34, even though i understand why others want it
[11:43]	Kitto Flora:	6:14 is the time on the vehicle in my L&F - when I got it back
[11:44]	Simon Linden:	That's before the restart, fwiw
[11:44]	Kitto Flora:	And it was AfterLife that restarted, not wish
[11:44]	Rex Cronon:	it can be very nasty when during a race somebody freezes your vehicle:(
[11:44]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Sindy, that's a bit like suggesting orbitters should still work since it's useful for orbitting griefers
[11:44]	Helena Lycia:	edit mdoe to grab a physical object is really helpful from an anti-griefer perspective
[11:44]	Arawn Spitteler:	Griefers in Vehicles should be unsat.
[11:44]	Kitto Flora:	and at 6:56 = 42 minutes later, Afterlife was down for 2-3 mins only
[11:45]	Sindy Tsure does not agree, gaius.. being able to stop somebody on your land isn't the same as throwing them into orbit
[11:45]	Rex Cronon:	and u don't even know who did it:( unless u have a moded viewer
[11:45]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Being able to crash someone's client with a special IM would be useful for dealing with griefers, too, but it's not a good idea.
[11:45]	Sindy Tsure:	i do understand why you'd like that fixed, tho
[11:45]	Sindy Tsure:	if there were better land-management tools, i'd vote for it.. there aren't, though
[11:45]	Andrew Linden:	Ok Kitto, let me see if I got this right...
[11:46]	Gaius Goodliffe:	There are, actually.
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	at 06:14 today a vehicle was returned to you
[11:46]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Eject from land is a far better tool.
[11:46]	Kitto Flora:	Yes
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	from either Afterlife or Wish
[11:46]	Kitto Flora:	And thats indicative that its *not* The bug
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	probably during a restart.
[11:46]	Kitto Flora:	Not durnin ga restart.
[11:46]	Simon Linden:	The restart was later
[11:46]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew: I really think you should not bother with *this* one
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	ok
[11:47]	Kitto Flora:	Too many indicators it was something else
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	ok
[11:47]	Simon Linden:	ls
[11:47]	Kitto Flora:	Within a couple days it will happen again
[11:47]	Arawn Spitteler:	That's getting rather predictable.
[11:47]	Helena Lycia:	Another issue that's been mentioned to me... Apparently there are keybaords (Mac?) out there that don't have separate PageUp & PageDown keys, they use Shift+CursorUp or Shift+CursorDown instead this causes problems for vehicles that use PageUp+CursorUp combos etc.
[11:48]	Kitto Flora:	The 'edit/grab' griefing of vehicleshas come up here before
[11:48]	Gaius Goodliffe:	You can use E/C instead of PgUp/PgDn
[11:48]	Sindy Tsure:	yep.. same arguments on both sides, too, iirc
[11:48]	Helena Lycia:	Ah cool... I'll pass that on thanks
[11:48]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, we were just talking about the "selection of vehicles" problem (SVC-34) a few weeks ago.
[11:49]	Andrew Linden:	I bounced the idea of a way to fix it off of Dan Linden, he thought it was a good idea.
[11:49]	Arawn Spitteler:	Selection Detection might also be a nice feature.
[11:49]	Kitto Flora:	No good solution idea yet on how to deal with preventing edit/grab in one case and allowing it in another.
[11:49]	Kitto Flora:	Waht was that idea, Andrew?
[11:49]	Sindy Tsure:	how's that work internally? the viewer sends a 'you're selected!' message and the sim physics sorta takes it out of action for a bit?
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	The final state of the proposal, as I recall was...
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	Selecting an object with a sitting avatar does not freeze it unless:
[11:50]	Arawn Spitteler:	Navajo consider Cheatig to be a part of Poker; Get Caught - Lose Pot. so detection is better than prevention.
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	(1) selected by owner
[11:50]	Rex Cronon:	at least those that select an moving vehicle shouldn't do it annonymosly
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	(2) selected by sitter
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	(3) selected by parcel owner that the object is inside
[11:50]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Ah! That makes a LOT of sense...
[11:51]	Sindy Tsure would be happy with that
[11:51]	Helena Lycia:	Estate Managers?
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	Open questions were... should group members of group owned land be able to select the vehicle?
[11:51]	Simon Linden:	yeah, we'd probably add all those who have higher permissions in the area
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	and estate managers? yes, still open I think
[11:51]	Helena Lycia:	Those with adminy type parcel powers - yes - imho
[11:51]	Arawn Spitteler:	What does Scrootch do? Any person with Freeze Authority should be able to do something.
[11:51]	Kitto Flora:	group members of group owned land are likely to be race participants
[11:52]	Simon Linden:	I think we should include those people ... they are considered trusted in that area
[11:52]	Helena Lycia:	Not sure about sitters though
[11:52]	Sindy Tsure:	certainly group members that can freeze..
[11:52]	Andrew Linden:	Also... there must be a distinction between "selecting obejct to examine its info" and "selecting object to freeze it"
[11:52]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Right! Yes, anyone who could Freeeze you should be able to freeze the vehicle
[11:52]	Helena Lycia:	I could see a situation, competitions, where a sitter might gain an advantage from freezing the vehicle they're on
[11:52]	Andrew Linden:	that is, the vehicle should still be selectable so that you can see who owns it and who created it
[11:53]	Sindy Tsure:	any chance this could be controlled via estate/region options?
[11:53]	Rex Cronon:	why do u need 2 freeze it?
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	alas Helena, those situations might require the "honor system"
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	Sigh... I knew someone would ask that Sindy.
[11:53]	Arawn Spitteler:	What if we could select, without turning static?
[11:53]	Gaius Goodliffe:	People freezing their own vehicles are a lot easier to detect/deal with.
[11:54]	Kitto Flora:	Need to Freeze: To examine and clamp a griefing object that is a vehicle - and is whizzing around the sim.
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	Whenever we add a feature or change something estate owners want to be able to select it.
[11:54]	Simon Linden:	Changes to the UI make something like this much more complicated to implement
[11:54]	Sindy Tsure:	sorry, andrew..
[11:54]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Regaining control of a buggy vehicle during development is another (all too frequent) need XD
[11:54]	Helena Lycia:	:D
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	I mentioned an idea of an avatar being able to select and freeze if it were very close to the object
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	I think that idea was rejected
[11:55]	Rex Cronon:	wouldn't be easier to just eject the driver?
[11:55]	Sindy Tsure:	you're always going to annoy somebody, no matter what you do.. estate/sim flag sorta helps with that - smooths out the edge cases a little
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	Yes but Gaius, in the runaway development vehicle the owner can select
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	and the sitter
[11:55]	Helena Lycia:	From an anti-grief perspective objects far away as just as problematic as those nearby
[11:55]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Right right. Just pointing out reasons why it needs to be more than just the landowner.
[11:56]	Andrew Linden:	*could* select... must stay in proper tense
[11:56]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Anyone seated sounds like a good idea.
[11:56]	Kitto Flora:	Need to PREVENT freeze: When the target vehicle is in a race - to prevent the competitor or some bystander stooping a particular vehicle
[11:56]	Arawn Spitteler:	Remote Selection might be handy, for runaway vehicles; it's often desired, that we find our lost balloons byt map.
[11:57]	Kitto Flora:	There was a suggestion that the NAME of the freezer should be broadccast
[11:57]	Arawn Spitteler:	If it's freeze by sitter, what's to stop a griefer from sitting?
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	Anyway... shouldn't be too hard to actually implement. The hard part is to hammer out the corner cases of the design.
[11:57]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Hmmmm...
[11:57]	Rex Cronon:	yes kitto:)
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	how would it be broadcast?
[11:58]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Arawn has a point... maybe it should be limited not to any seated av, but to any av that has controls taken with llTakeControls?
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	I'll have to review the transcripts from that hour
[11:58]	Rex Cronon:	on debug channel
[11:58]	Kitto Flora:	I've had a race vehicle frozen by a passenger :(
[11:58]	Helena Lycia:	I agree Gaius
[11:58]	Arawn Spitteler:	Broadcast of non-owning freezers should be broadcast, maybe as adjustable by vehicle.
[11:59]	Rex Cronon:	u need to know who is doing it
[11:59]	Kitto Flora:	llSount(0, Nane + " has grabbed ....)
[11:59]	Kitto Flora:	llShout(0,"
[11:59]	Sindy Tsure:	ack! nooo!!!
[11:59]	Arawn Spitteler:	Debug Channel makes sense, as a race might involve unpleasant sliding.
[11:59]	Simon Linden:	I'm not sure the can-a-sitter-select-logic can be worked out easily, it sounds tweaky
[11:59]	Kitto Flora:	The idea was that if ALL will KNOW who is doing the grabbing, its a strong deterrent
[11:59]	Sindy Tsure notices we've been invaded by dragons..
[11:59]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Tweaky? In SL? :o
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	perhaps I'm unfamiliar with the "debug channels" ? Are you just talking about non-zero chat channels?
[12:00]	Arawn Spitteler:	dbdbd
[12:00]	Helena Lycia:	Really?
[12:00]	Gaius Goodliffe:	llShout(DEBUG_CHANNEL, "...")
[12:00]	Helena Lycia:	Oh sorry, that's my fault
[12:00]	Rex Cronon:	there is only one debug channel
[12:00]	Helena Lycia:	And my vehicle - lol
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	oh right. ok
[12:00]	Sindy Tsure:	:)
[12:00]	Simon Linden:	Sindy is feeding them sheep
[12:00]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I think is 2147..something... over 2 billlion in any case
[12:00]	Helena Lycia:	I found Cgos' tower earlier and told them it was fun to climb
[12:00]	Sindy Tsure:	:)
[12:00]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Certainly over 9000. ;)
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	shouted on successful select and freeze? or any attempt to select?
[12:01]	Helena Lycia:	Sindy - do You know Jahdo? He has a thing about (exploding) sheep
[12:01]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Successfully frozen.
[12:01]	Rex Cronon:	on freeze
[12:01]	Sindy Tsure:	lol.. nope - never met him, helena..
[12:01]	Arawn Spitteler wonders if Androids smoke Exploding Sheep
[12:01]	Gaius Goodliffe:	XD
[12:01]	Helena Lycia:	He's the purple and black dragon (I think)
[12:01]	Helena Lycia:	Yep
[12:02]	Sindy Tsure:	oh..
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	ok well I've got a bunch of work to do, so I'm going to have to end this office hour on time
[12:02]	Rex Cronon:	bye andrew
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	er... I'm going to have to exit, you can all stick around
[12:02]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Oh oh before we completely run out of time, I wanted to give a shout about SVC-766
[12:02]	Kitto Flora:	Byebye Andrew
[12:02]	Arawn Spitteler prefers Andrew having work to do, to many alternatives, but only 'cause they're worse.
[12:02]	Sindy Tsure:	i dropped him a sheep ring, helena
[12:02]	Gaius Goodliffe:	That's the VEHICLE_HOVER_HEIGHT being clipped too low
[12:02]	Kitto Flora:	What of Thursday? Any meet?
[12:02]	Sindy Tsure:	cya, andrew! happy new year!!
[12:02]	Gaius Goodliffe:	(1024 instead of 4096)
[12:02]	Helena Lycia:	:)
[12:02]	Rex Cronon:	happy new year everybody:)
[12:03]	Simon Linden:	Thanks all for coming
[12:03]	Sindy Tsure:	ty, simon & andrew!
[12:03]	Gaius Goodliffe:	ty ty
[12:03]	Sindy Tsure:	happy holidays, all!
[12:03]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Happy New Year everyone!
[12:03]	Arawn Spitteler hastoo many things to go to, half an hour ago.
[12:04]	Simon Linden:	Happy New Year to everyone ... see you on Tuesday (no office hours Thursday)
[12:04]	Kitto Flora:	OK
[12:04]	Andrew Linden:	yes, happy new year
[12:04]	Kitto Flora:	Happy New Year All
[12:04]	Rex Cronon:	bye
[12:04]	Sindy Tsure waves bye and goes poof
[12:04]	Kitto Flora:	Byebye