User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2007 Jun 14

[7:23]	Dr Scofield:	hi there
[7:24]	Khamon Fate:	Good Morning
[7:30]	Khamon Fate:	It is time.
[7:31]	Dr Scofield thinks so too
[7:31]	Khamon Fate:	Was anything discussed last week other than babies and recaps?
[7:32]	Khamon Fate:	I had to leave early and missed most of it.
[7:32]	Dr Scofield:	no clue, didn't have tim eto attend and haven't read up on the transcript yet
[7:32]	Khamon Fate:	Read the transcript Khamon!
[7:32]	Tao Takashi:	Hi
[7:32]	Khamon Fate:	I don't see any Lindens inworld.
[7:33]	Dr Scofield:	hi
[7:33]	Khamon Fate:	Hi Tao, wanna be Zero today?
[7:33]	Tao Takashi:	I see Zero ;-)
[7:33]	Dr Scofield:	tao, is that an interesting dress or a graphics card bug?
[7:33]	Tao Takashi:	Hi Zero, congratulations also from me :)
[7:33]	Zero Linden:	Hello all
[7:33]	Tao Takashi:	it should be just a suit
[7:33]	Zero Linden:	Thanks, Tao.... for?
[7:33]	Dr Scofield:	hi zero, congrats and all the best
[7:33]	Khamon Fate:	Tao was all missing textures when I first saw him too.
[7:33]	Tao Takashi:	for the reason you where off :)
[7:33]	Tao Takashi:	were
[7:34]	Tao Takashi:	for us of course it was a hard time ;_)
[7:34]	Echo Seigo:	ah, yes, congratulations
[7:34]	Echo Seigo:	and welcome back :)
[7:36]	Echo Seigo:	hi zha
[7:36]	Zha Ewry:	HelloEcho
[7:36]	Dragonfan Hooper:	rex no weapons
[7:36]	Rex Cronon:	hello everybody
[7:36]	Rex Cronon:	hello everybody
[7:36]	Dr Scofield:	hi zha
[7:36]	Echo Seigo:	hi
[7:37]	Rex Cronon:	i know i just came from swt
[7:37]	Zha Ewry:	Hello Dr. Scoffield...
[7:37]	Zha Ewry:	Morning, Wyn
[7:37]	Rex Cronon:	actully doesn't matter if somebody has weapons, what is importan is if that person will use them without provocation:)
[7:38]	Zha Ewry:	Khamon, Jarod, Rex, Tao, and.. Hey Zero!
[7:38]	Khamon Fate:	Yo
[7:38]	Jarod Godel:	hi
[7:38]	Rex Cronon:	hi...
[7:38]	Zero Linden:	ah -- crashing in the AM
[7:38]	Khamon Fate:	I mean ar ar
[7:38]	Echo Seigo:	lol
[7:39]	Zero Linden:	Someone on the forums was claiming that it was clear that Lindens don't give a dang about Mac users as we don't fix the fact that MacBook Pros crash all the time
[7:39]	Dr Scofield:	yep, proves it
[7:39]	Zha Ewry shrugs
[7:39]	Dr Scofield:	lol
[7:39]	Zero Linden:	Please! Most of use are using MacBook Pros and would dearly love to see this crasher fixed
[7:39]	Zha Ewry sees lots of noise in the forums, about 10% of it seems well grounded
[7:40]	Echo Seigo:	agreeded
[7:40]	Zero Linden:	So far, I'm pretty sure it isn't tempature related - I've been using a tempature sensor and seeing when my Mac crashes - this time it was dead cold!
[7:40]	Zero Linden:	And the forums suggested Ripple water
[7:40]	Dragonfan Hooper:	when i was on SL last night that the fly mode was all mixed up and not being straight,friends list all confusing,sit pose acting up,IM windows not staying proper size which is bugging me a lot
[7:40]	Zero Linden:	but I have that turned off
[7:40]	Zero Linden:	oh well....
[7:41]	Zha Ewry:	Heh. I've taken to Wyn's approach, and put icepacks under my laptiop, and.. last night, under my power brick
[7:41]	Jarod Godel:	Macs...crash?
[7:41]	Jarod Godel:	the world is a lie!
[7:41]	Zha Ewry:	Cool does help, but then.. it's an intel box, with way too much ATI graphics heat
[7:41]	Dr Scofield:	no, flat
[7:41]	Rex Cronon:	i think the sl viewer crashes them:)
[7:41]	Dr Scofield:	th world
[7:42]	Rex Cronon:	seems like it was first made for windows, and when it got to mac it took allong the bugs with it:)
[7:42]	Zero Linden:	The viewer? It has been cross platform almost from the start
[7:43]	Zero Linden:	There is actually very little platform specific code in there
[7:43]	Zero Linden:	BUT
[7:43]	Tao Takashi:	btw, somebody asked on the german forums how he can test his own translations in the client as he wanted to fix those broken ones in the german version. Is there a way to easily load them in?
[7:43]	Zero Linden:	despite the "standard" of OpenGL
[7:43]	Randal Kline:	are they on wireless connections?
[7:43]	Zero Linden:	in fact, when you push OpenGL to do lots and lots, there is quite a bit of difference in the
[7:43]	Zero Linden:	implementations
[7:43]	Zero Linden:	so our OpenGL code, both the C++ code that calls it, and the Shader programs
[7:43]	Zero Linden:	have to be tailored to work with different implementations
[7:43]	Rex Cronon:	i don't know if the smilly at the end of my previous 2 sentences was visible
[7:44]	Zero Linden:	and on Windows, that means each and every graphics manufacturer - since they easy supply an OpenGL implemetnation
[7:44]	Zero Linden:	on Mac, there is only Apple's though it varies somewhat with graphcis cards too..... and they don't update it as often
[7:44]	Zha Ewry nods "Often more than one..."
[7:44]	Zero Linden:	Updates, are of course, a double edged sword: They fix bugs so you don't have to work around them, b
[7:45]	Zero Linden:	but then people hate installing them - as it is often difficult to do for non-technical folks, and viewed as "dangerous"
[7:45]	Zha Ewry shrugs, "Lets, see.. I've got beta unsupported drivers on my laptop... "
[7:46]	Zero Linden:	Yes - Rex - but I thought i'd throw that tidbit out anyway
[7:46]	Rex Cronon:	ok
[7:46]	Zero Linden:	Many places I've worked for/with before did things on one platform first and then ported - and you can tell from the code base
[7:46]	Zero Linden:	here, it is clear they wanted to be cross platform from the get go
[7:47]	Zha Ewry:	With the minor exception, I'd say, of Linux, which seems sometimes.. to be the bastard stepchild...
[7:47]	Tao Takashi:	seems so
[7:47]	Tao Takashi:	but it's not only LL's fault I'd say
[7:47]	Zha Ewry:	Granted, 3d, sound, etc. is painful in Linux.. but..
[7:47]	Dr Scofield:	except for voice the linux client is quite acceptable
[7:48]	Zero Linden:	Well - consider that if pushing the graphics usage (nothing compilcated in terms of rendering - just managing tons of texture and vertex memory) is difficult on Windows and Mac....
[7:48]	Zero Linden:	imagine on Linux, where things are even less standard oddly enough
[7:49]	Rex Cronon:	actually i think the problem is with pointers. even the smallest error can be very hard to degubg
[7:49]	Tao Takashi:	you should have used Python to implement SL, just like EVE did ;-)
[7:49]	Rex Cronon:	and is very easy to make "small" errors
[7:50]	Tao Takashi:	btw, I once made a little sim diagram when you were off
[7:50]	Echo Seigo:	i was just wondering why that was in my inventory
[7:50]	Zero Linden:	Been meaning to put a light in here
[7:51]	epredator Potato is Online
[7:51]	Tao Takashi:	I should have put more labels on it though ;-)
[7:51]	Zha Ewry:	Say, Zero.. Any eta, on when Presence will finally get stable?
[7:51]	Zero Linden:	well - the friends list has been seriously improved
[7:52]	Zero Linden:	Anyone actually notice ... dang!
[7:52]	Zha Ewry:	Yeah. it's up to 70% right.. which is progress
[7:52]	Zha Ewry:	But.. still at least 30% wrong..
[7:52]	Zero Linden:	Really? That seems high.....
[7:52]	Zha Ewry:	Tho, at least with the web page up.. I can tell
[7:52]	Zha Ewry counted three times last night
[7:52]	Zero Linden:	or delays
[7:53]	Zha Ewry:	Generally saw about 3-10 people missing
[7:53]	Zero Linden:	What we did is make the initial update be much more resiliant to failures
[7:53]	Zero Linden:	Right now, presence is a pull model
[7:53]	Zha Ewry:	And.. of late.. I've been seeing people "on" when they've left.. which is new
[7:53]	Zero Linden:	you log in, and your sim pulls the friends presence
[7:53]	Tao Takashi:	oh, I had this here and there when trying to IM them
[7:53]	Wyn Galbraith:	Zha doesn't sho on my friends list as being online. You're not here Zha. :)
[7:53]	Zero Linden:	there after it is push
[7:53]	Zha Ewry nods
[7:53]	Randal Kline:	how u calculate the %?
[7:53]	Zero Linden:	as the friends come on and off line, the system pushes that state
[7:54]	Zero Linden:	BUT
[7:54]	Zero Linden:	The problem is that right now both those operations are unreliable
[7:54]	Zero Linden:	It is possible that you are TP'ing and somewho
[7:54]	Rex Cronon:	shouldn't the viewer request that info when the friends list gains focus?
[7:54]	Zero Linden:	somehow the update gets lost on a push
[7:54]	Zero Linden:	OR on the initial fetch, there could be something wrong with a firend's state
[7:54]	Zha Ewry blinks "Too many pulls, I'd expect, Rex.."
[7:55]	Zero Linden:	Rex, re-requesting it would be like doing the initial PULL again
[7:55]	Rex Cronon:	there should be a refresh button to force a request
[7:55]	Zero Linden:	which menas that it mightstill have some things wrong
[7:55]	Zha Ewry:	Ohh.. and not your department, I know Zero.. but why does the chatter box (jhmmm commuinicate, it seems today) have *no* way to close it by keystroke?
[7:56]	Wyn Galbraith:	Too bad there isn't a friends list refresh button.
[7:56]	Zero Linden:	SO - the real solution to presnece is Publish / Subscribe
[7:56]	Zero Linden:	which we've been resisting for along time
[7:56]	Zha Ewry:	Why have you resisting, Zero?
[7:56]	Zero Linden:	as it is a harder technology to work with at the application layer - and we have a LOT of application layer
[7:56]	Zha Ewry:	Pub/Sub has a long and honorable history :-)
[7:56]	Zero Linden:	But, at the application layer, you have to do mor work
[7:57]	Zero Linden:	So - Donovan and I have been toying around with a REST <-> Pub/Sub adapter
[7:57]	Zero Linden:	that lets you write the applicatino with REST (Pull - easy to code), and notices your request patterns
[7:57]	Zero Linden:	and does a pub/sub behind your back
[7:57]	Zero Linden:	I think this might do the trick!
[7:58]	Zero Linden:	but still in early exploratory phase
[7:59]	Zero Linden:	Zha - yes, in the first look voice viewer, the UI of the combined communicate window has quite a number of small flaws - and I too noticed the lack of close - the reason for that one is that control-W in the IM window closes a single panel
[7:59]	Zero Linden:	and that behavior got callried over to the communicate window
[7:59]	Zero Linden:	*carried
[7:59]	Zero Linden:	Tricky one that window - once you get so many things in it, assigning logical shortcuts is hard
[8:00]	Zha Ewry:	Well, it has about six ways in.. frankly, they all should reverse out too
[8:00]	Zha Ewry:	Or.. only one way in and out
[8:00]	Rex Cronon:	i went to one of benjamins office hours and he said that the history window should allow people to create a new instance with the text only
[8:01]	Zha Ewry:	Because, if I go in via ctrl-shift-F, I'm going back out the same way..
[8:01]	Zero Linden:	Agreed - though of course, there is a balance between making old kinestethic (sp?) keystrokes still work, and making a single consistent window
[8:01]	Zha Ewry:	Well, either.. kill off the six ways on.. or... make it behave semi sanely.. Or, at least allow ctrl-f4, to do the rtight thing
[8:02]	Zha Ewry:	(Pardon any Mac folks.. :-) )
[8:02]	Tao Takashi:	I think I find the new windows a bit too confusing
[8:02]	Khamon Fate:	Has Jarod said Refresh Button yet?
[8:03]	Tao Takashi:	and maybe context-menus on stuff there might help, like call this one one-to-one if clicking on a resident in a group chat
[8:04]	Zha Ewry:	Well, there are a whole *new* set of communication modalities.. So.. i do sort of get why it was done.
[8:04]	Tao Takashi:	(oh, and profile, IM, etc. also via some context menu might be nice.)
[8:05]	Tao Takashi:	sure, it makes sense to redo the window
[8:05]	Tao Takashi:	windows actually
[8:06]	Zha Ewry would love to see the ui actually use context clicking in a *lot* more palce.. But.. that's for Benjamin, not Zero.. isn't it.. and what really is missing it the use of more than
[8:06]	Tao Takashi:	that's maybe why Zero left ;-)
[8:06]	Zha Ewry:	just in any one place. (of course.. the whole two or three button mouse thing thencomes up
[8:07]	Zha Ewry looks up and sighs
[8:07]	Zha Ewry:	oops.
[8:07]	Dr Scofield:	those crashing macs again
[8:07]	Tao Takashi:	SL kills them ;-)
[8:07]	Zero Linden:	Sigh!
[8:07]	Tao Takashi:	wb Zero!
[8:07]	Zha Ewry:	WB... Zero
[8:07]	Wyn Galbraith:	wb Zero
[8:08]	Dr Scofield:	zero, get a linux laptop
[8:08]	Dr Scofield:	;-)
[8:08]	Rex Cronon:	zero crashed?
[8:08]	Wyn Galbraith:	Just proves Lindens get no special handling in SL ;)
[8:08]	Tao Takashi:	get a desktop ;-)
[8:08]	Zero Linden:	Indeed -
[8:08]	Zero Linden:	Well actually - I was playing around with the voice client yesterday -
[8:08]	Zero Linden:	and someone was talking very loud next to me so I thought I'd try the mute feature
[8:08]	Tao Takashi:	me too but I wasn't really sure the new voice list helps me in knowing who's talking
[8:09]	Zero Linden:	and i get this dialog box "You cannot mute a Linden."
[8:09]	Zero Linden:	!
[8:09]	Zha Ewry:	Ouch!
[8:09]	Echo Seigo:	haha
[8:09]	Tao Takashi:	heh :)
[8:09]	Tao Takashi:	blasphemy!
[8:09]	Wyn Galbraith:	That's truly funny.
[8:09]	Zero Linden:	It was
[8:09]	Rex Cronon:	for some reason with the previous version of the viewer i used to crash like crazy until i turned particles off, u could turn yours off too zero and see if it helps
[8:09]	Zero Linden:	sure
[8:09]	Wyn Galbraith:	So that's the only thing we can't do, mute a Linden.
[8:09]	Zero Linden:	okay - particles off - I'll try anything
[8:09]	Echo Seigo:	just turn off audio, that seems to help from my experience
[8:09]	Tao Takashi:	you mute all the Lindens and then complain that LL does not communicate enough ;-)
[8:09]	Khamon Fate:	If we can't mute Lindens, then they should appear online for us in Find when they are.
[8:10]	Zero Linden:	if we get a clear "turn this feature off and the MacBook Pro doesn't crash anymore" theny we'll be able to fix it much faster
[8:10]	Wyn Galbraith:	I love particles but I think that's what helps crash my laptop alot.
[8:10]	Khamon Fate:	If we can't mute them, they shouldn't be able to hide from us when they're logged in with company accounts.
[8:10]	Zero Linden:	Well - alas, gone are the days when all Lindens could happily help with support -
[8:10]	Khamon Fate:	Can we not mute Linden accounts really?
[8:11]	Zero Linden:	there are plenty of Lindens now, myself included, who don't know enough of the whole system to effectviely support a resident
[8:11]	Rex Cronon:	any time a user gets withing 10 m of a linder the user should get warning "linden here. have no fear" :)
[8:11]	Zero Linden:	Remember - we are now a 160 person company
[8:11]	Khamon Fate:	Okay then build a way for Linden accounts to be labeled as nonsupportive, let them hide, and let me be able to mute them.
[8:11]	Wyn Galbraith:	It's true.
[8:11]	Wyn Galbraith just tried.
[8:11]	Rex Cronon:	linden*
[8:11]	Zero Linden:	which is VERY small for what we are doing, but much bigger than a startup
[8:11]	Khamon Fate:	If they're not community-oriented, they don't have any business being forced on me if I don't want to listen to them.
[8:12]	Zero Linden:	Khamon - ah, were everything so black and white!
[8:12]	Khamon Fate:	Or let LL have its cake and eat it too. The world does belong to the company after all.
[8:12]	epredator Potato is Online
[8:13]	Khamon Fate:	It's pretty black and white to just not let us mute Lindens no matter what.
[8:13]	Zero Linden:	Really - it's just that it is a low priority issue to "fix" - so for now - you'll have to listen to me when I show up at your exclusive, formal, tree-signing parties!
[8:13]	Khamon Fate:	There's no grey area there.
[8:13]	Zero Linden:	True - but sometimes people like me are "Grid Monkey" - and then, for that week, you have to listen to me even though I'm not there to directly support you.....
[8:13]	Zero Linden:	sigh - it is complicated
[8:13]	Rex Cronon:	the thing is if u mute lindens u could miss an important grid wide announcement
[8:14]	Jarod Godel:	I can mute Lindens. it's called City of Heroes.
[8:14]	Wyn Galbraith:	It's all green.
[8:14]	Khamon Fate:	Were muting Lindens allowed to as greyish as the definition of "adult content" or "broadly offensive" ha ha ha
[8:15]	Khamon Fate:	I'm not griefing the conversation Jarod. I'm just pointing out that LL arbitrarily or conveniently well yeah okay I am griefing the conversation.
[8:15]	Khamon Fate:	I'll retire now.
[8:16]	Wyn Galbraith:	Zero crashed again?
[8:16]	Tao Takashi:	seems so
[8:16]	Tao Takashi:	we muted him ;-)
[8:16]	Wyn Galbraith:	wb Zero again ;)
[8:16]	Zero Linden:	GRRRRR
[8:16]	Zha Ewry:	wb, wb, wb, Zero.
[8:16]	Tao Takashi:	wb Zero :)
[8:16]	Randal Kline:	particles setting doesnt work then
[8:16]	Rex Cronon:	wb
[8:16]	Wyn Galbraith:	Took two crashes for me to get here today :)
[8:16]	Zero Linden:	I'm writing SUCH a nasty bug report when this is over!
[8:17]	Rex Cronon:	seems so:(
[8:17]	Tao Takashi:	see, if it happens to Lindens it seems to be much more severe bugs ;-)
[8:17]	Dr Scofield:	macs can mute lindens then after all
[8:17]	Randal Kline:	must be that cup!
[8:17]	Zha Ewry grins
[8:17]	Khamon Fate:	Zero, we're aware of your crashing and are doing everything we can to repair the situation. Your patience is greatly appreciated.
[8:17]	Echo Seigo:	hah
[8:17]	Rex Cronon:	lol
[8:17]	Zha Ewry:	Heh.
[8:17]	Wyn Galbraith:	LOL
[8:17]	Echo Seigo:	In the mean time want to watch a torley video?
[8:17]	Khamon Fate:	That depends, if Zero's at home, he's just a resident.
[8:18]	Jarod Godel:	i thought zero wrked from home
[8:18]	Khamon Fate:	Really, even if he's in the office, that's across town and a few hops away from the servers.
[8:18]	Tao Takashi:	can you just detach your big responsibility as a god when you leave work?
[8:18]	Randal Kline:	are u on wireless zero?
[8:18]	Khamon Fate:	There's no better connectivity afforded the Lindens when they're inworld.
[8:19]	Wyn Galbraith:	I think he's crashed again.
[8:19]	Khamon Fate:	Better than we have I mean.
[8:19]	Randal Kline:	POKE!
[8:19]	Randal Kline:	POKE!
[8:19]	Randal Kline:	look lifeless to me
[8:19]	Dr Scofield:	yep
[8:19]	Wyn Galbraith:	Poof there he goes!
[8:19]	Dr Scofield:	gone again
[8:19]	Rex Cronon:	i wonder if zero is using the voice chat version
[8:19]	Zha Ewry shrugs if you're on a good intrerne backbone.. you get prety good connectivity
[8:20]	Zha Ewry:	sub 100ms ping times, here
[8:20]	Zha Ewry:	And, that's cross continent
[8:20]	Zha Ewry:	And.. I'm on the voice beta
[8:20]	Wyn Galbraith:	We got 10 minutes left, Khamon could play Zero, he did Robin already.
[8:20]	Zero Linden:	fie!
[8:20]	Zero Linden:	fie!
[8:20]	Zero Linden:	grrr
[8:20]	Zha Ewry:	(well, first look)
[8:20]	Zero Linden:	and fie!
[8:20]	Randal Kline:	are u on wireless zeop?
[8:20]	Wyn Galbraith:	Poor Zero.
[8:20]	Dr Scofield:	173ms from zurich
[8:20]	Randal Kline:	zero
[8:20]	Rex Cronon:	if even lindens crash this often, than is bad:(
[8:21]	Zero Linden:	right - cause lindens have some "extra special no-crashy build..."
[8:21]	Wyn Galbraith:	And that's with the supported graphics.
[8:21]	Zero Linden:	:-)
[8:21]	Zero Linden:	if anyone has a transcript that is in tact
[8:21]	Jarod Godel:	Philip's Version 401k
[8:21]	Dr Scofield:	text client
[8:21]	Zero Linden:	can you e-mail it to me afterwards so I can post it
[8:21]	Zero Linden:	crashes and all!
[8:21]	Randal Kline:	am i being muted?
[8:21]	Zha Ewry:	Yeah, I think I have one
[8:21]	Zero Linden:	Randal -
[8:21]	Zha Ewry:	I'll pass it on
[8:21]	Zero Linden:	I hear you
[8:22]	Zero Linden:	I'm on wired
[8:22]	Randal Kline:	:)
[8:22]	Zero Linden:	but wireless/wired should make no difference
[8:22]	Dr Scofield:	speaking of which: have you thought of allowing prim groups within prim groups?
[8:22]	Zero Linden:	Oh... heirarchy!
[8:22]	Dr Scofield:	yep
[8:22]	Dr Scofield:	that would make it easy to create a text client
[8:22]	Wyn Galbraith oos.
[8:22]	Zero Linden:	there is a famous Philp quote: "Nature has no heirarchy" - for which we rib him for all the time!
[8:22]	Dr Scofield:	accessibility
[8:22]	Rex Cronon:	i am wireless, and haven't crashed once with the new viewer
[8:23]	Wyn Galbraith:	I'm wireless.
[8:23]	epredator Potato is Online
[8:23]	Randal Kline:	i am wireless too
[8:23]	Wyn Galbraith:	Wireless with unsupported graphics ;)
[8:23]	Zha Ewry:	Wireless, has never been an issue for stability
[8:23]	Dragonfan Hooper:	i just got on not too long ago because of my pc being badly messed up
[8:23]	Zha Ewry:	Well, not 80211G
[8:23]	Dr Scofield:	that way you could construct a house and the text client would be able to identify doors, windows, etc
[8:23]	Dragonfan Hooper:	i meant lasdt week
[8:23]	Wyn Galbraith:	Unless you have some huge interference between you and base.
[8:23]	Zha Ewry:	latency, and total bandwidth has been far more the issue, when I see ghotsing and such
[8:24]	Zero Linden:	Dr. - that is a justification for heirarchy I never heard before
[8:24]	Zero Linden:	SEE - these meetings really are useful for me!
[8:24]	Dr Scofield:	i've been thinking about how you could make SL accessible to the blind
[8:24]	Dr Scofield:	but also how you could create a mobile phone SL client
[8:24]	Wyn Galbraith:	Good idea Doctor.
[8:24]	Zero Linden:	You mean, other than putting the display on one of those pin-boards so they can feel the space?
[8:24]	Wyn Galbraith want all bases covered before she gets too old.
[8:24]	Rex Cronon:	i want hierarchy to i can animate limbs on script controled things
[8:25]	Dr Scofield:	yes
[8:25]	Randal Kline:	"ghosting" seems to be everywhere now, even in linden village
[8:25]	Zha Ewry:	Well, all it takes is the UDP long poll to drop
[8:25]	Zha Ewry:	and you're ghosted
[8:25]	Wyn Galbraith:	People who are blind can visualize a lot more than you think. I have worked with a blind programmer before.
[8:25]	Zero Linden:	Right - so one problem with heiarchy is, as with heirarchy in nature, there are often different, overlapping heirarchies for different purposes
[8:25]	Dr Scofield:	because then the text client could describe to the lind person what is visible
[8:25]	Zha Ewry:	I wonder.. if as we get more load in the collos, that more UDP gets borked
[8:25]	Zero Linden:	animation join heirarchy, containment heirarchy, ownership heirarchy, visual detail heirarchy
[8:26]	Zero Linden:	etc....
[8:26]	Dr Scofield:	just supporting prim groups within prim groups would be find
[8:26]	Dr Scofield:	fine
[8:26]	Rex Cronon:	i am with dr
[8:26]	Zero Linden:	Well - Message Liberation is in beta! It will be on the beta grid soon if not already
[8:26]	Wyn Galbraith loves the idea.
[8:26]	Dr Scofield:	"you are standing on a square, to your left at 3:00 is the school"
[8:26]	Dr Scofield:	etc
[8:26]	Tao Takashi:	oh, the day of liberation is in beta? :)
[8:26]	Zero Linden:	So, our ability to switch away from UDP for sim-to-sim messages in neigh upon us!
[8:27]	Tao Takashi:	beta holidays sounds good ;-)
[8:27]	Zha Ewry:	Woot!
[8:27]	Wyn Galbraith:	Beta was a nightmare yesterday. Like walking through carmel.
[8:27]	Zero Linden:	Yes, we're beta-testing liberation... we think the people like it.... but ya know, authoritarian rule is still and option!
[8:27]	Zha Ewry:	Heh. Wyn.. just log in, the night before.. and go to a quiet place
[8:27]	Zha Ewry:	Then.. you don't rez in into one of the totally dead sims.
[8:27]	Wyn Galbraith spent most the time Ruth'd and unable to move in Beta while the normal grid was down.
[8:28]	Zha Ewry:	I had a lovely chat in voice mode, underwater, in kapor.
[8:28]	Tao Takashi:	does it sound different underwater? :)
[8:28]	Zha Ewry:	no
[8:28]	Wyn Galbraith:	I'll remember that, Zha, good suggestion.
[8:28]	Zero Linden:	ah - glad / sad to say - the beta grid wasn't msg. lib. while the main grid was down yesterday
[8:28]	Zha Ewry:	but.. it was low lag
[8:28]	Tao Takashi:	too bad, it shouöd
[8:28]	Tao Takashi:	should
[8:28]	Tao Takashi:	more bubble sound
[8:28]	Zha Ewry:	LOL
[8:29]	Khamon Fate:	haha Wyn that sounds like OpenSim, we're forever Ruthed.
[8:29]	Wyn Galbraith:	Like Sea Hunt sound.
[8:29]	Wyn Galbraith is starting to think Ruth is cute.
[8:29]	Wyn Galbraith:	But the black eyes scare me.
[8:29]	Zero Linden:	really - it's the safest av shape!
[8:29]	Zero Linden:	think - Orphan Annie....
[8:30]	Tao Takashi:	maybe LL can provide a different standard shape without the eyes ;-)
[8:30]	Wyn Galbraith:	LOL
[8:30]	Echo Seigo:	hah
[8:30]	Zero Linden:	well, now I've got no local lights on - and so far... no crash....
[8:30]	Rex Cronon:	why? does having breasts protect u from crashing:)
[8:30]	couch sit 1 RED.: Saittham Johin, say '/1 Hide' to hide me, or '/1 Show' to make me show. Or just right-click and sit on me to use me.
[8:30]	couch sit 1 RED.: Saittham Johin, say '/1 Hide' to hide me, or '/1 Show' to make me show. Or just right-click and sit on me to use me.
[8:30]	Wyn Galbraith doesn't use local lights.
[8:30]	Zero Linden:	and no bumpy or shiny either
[8:30]	Tao Takashi wants windlight back ;-)
[8:30]	Zero Linden:	coming .... coming....
[8:31]	Zha Ewry can assure you that breasts don't keep you from crashing.
[8:31]	Zha Ewry:	Nor from being ruthed
[8:31]	Dr Scofield:	;-) they just cushion it
[8:31]	Rex Cronon:	lol
[8:31]	Zero Linden:	ouch!
[8:31]	Echo Seigo:	hah
[8:31]	Zero Linden:	Okay -
[8:31]	Zero Linden:	so - a call
[8:31]	Zero Linden:	I'd like to have some preplanned topics for summer
[8:31]	Rex Cronon:	i meant the 3d model not the actual person
[8:31]	Zero Linden:	anyone want to throw some topics out?
[8:31]	Zha Ewry:	Tho, I suppose. most of my wardrobe looks better when ruthed then most guy clothing
[8:32]	Rex Cronon:	sculpties
[8:32]	Wyn Galbraith read that as throw up some topics.
[8:32]	Tao Takashi:	unicode all over :)
[8:32]	Tao Takashi:	I want names and scripts with umlauts
[8:32]	Dr Scofield:	hierarchies
[8:32]	Tao Takashi:	but that's maybe a not so interesting topic
[8:32]	Jarod Godel:	web-based textures
[8:32]	Zha Ewry:	Infrastructure...
[8:32]	Dr Scofield:	HTTP textures
[8:32]	Zha Ewry:	Testing...
[8:32]	Jarod Godel:	inter-client browser.
[8:32]	Wyn Galbraith seconds hierachies and scupties.
[8:32]	Tao Takashi:	definitely HTTP textures
[8:32]	Jarod Godel:	editable client (ala XML+tk)
[8:32]	Zha Ewry:	How can we help with testing, when you are going to have multiple levels on the servers
[8:33]	Dr Scofield:	heterogenous grids
[8:33]	Jarod Godel:	my.secondlife.com
[8:33]	Wyn Galbraith:	Testing is a good one too.
[8:33]	Tao Takashi:	webservices
[8:33]	Zha Ewry:	Tunable features lke script size vs. script count
[8:33]	Tao Takashi:	new search
[8:33]	Zero Linden:	Tao - I want names and scripts like: 围棋
[8:33]	Khamon Fate:	It *would* be nice to talk about LSL one day or the mono implementation if it's ever actually going to happen.
[8:33]	Jarod Godel:	Mono
[8:33]	Wyn Galbraith:	Better search ;)
[8:33]	Rex Cronon:	i want a modal dialog box where the user can enter text and presss the OK button, and the script gets the text. not on a channel
[8:33]	Gao Niangao:	yes, mono
[8:33]	Tao Takashi:	I want some sort of better input user interface
[8:33]	Khamon Fate:	yeah it would be nice to talk to someone about the search mechanism too
[8:34]	Tao Takashi:	does not need to be HTML but better than /9 here is my input
[8:34]	Jarod Godel:	I want to be able to change the color of a dialog box, unanchor it, enter text, etc.
[8:34]	Tao Takashi:	bigger linksets
[8:34]	Wyn Galbraith notes we don't want much.
[8:34]	Tao Takashi:	enough topics? ;-)
[8:34]	Jarod Godel:	I wnna pony
[8:34]	Wyn Galbraith:	Bigger link sets would be great.
[8:34]	Tao Takashi:	a pony prim type, yes
[8:34]	Zero Linden:	Yes - enough - remember I wanted topics, not desired features
[8:34]	Zero Linden:	but I can extrapolate
[8:34]	Rex Cronon:	bigger distance beteen links in alinked set
[8:34]	Khamon Fate:	LSL will never be improved if Mono is implemented. But both keep getting played against the middle leaving us with nothing.
[8:35]	Zha Ewry nod
[8:35]	Zha Ewry:	LSL and mono are orthogonal,
[8:35]	Jarod Godel:	Zero: Mono, web-textures, web services/API, modifiable UI
[8:35]	Zero Linden:	No, to a degree he is right: We don't put any effort into LSL as a language as Mono will one day allow better languages
[8:35]	Khamon Fate:	They are Zha except that we are constantly told "no LSL improvements because Mono is coming" AND "mono isn't ready yet"
[8:35]	Zha Ewry:	Ah
[8:35]	Zha Ewry:	In that sense, maybe
[8:36]	Rex Cronon:	i have a great idea. can the message_template.msg be explained?
[8:36]	Zero Linden:	BUT - really, the effort to make LSL into anything better seems misguided - we'd be better putting that effort into finishing mono
[8:36]	Zero Linden:	the problem is that we don't that effort to spare for either!
[8:36]	Zha Ewry:	What is blokcing mono, at this point?
[8:36]	Jarod Godel:	Zero, I don't get that...if LSL is going to b replaced with "better languages" why not just expose an API and let up build around that?
[8:36]	Zha Ewry:	I knew it was leaks and bugs
[8:36]	Zha Ewry:	I thought that was sorted
[8:37]	Zero Linden:	And API? to what? the virtual machine? Oh... that's called "Mono"
[8:37]	Zero Linden:	So, exactly
[8:37]	Khamon Fate:	Honestly, searching is more important than scripting in a, what do we call this, socially-oriented platform. We'd probably rather talk about that first. Unless there's no one available to work on that either.
[8:38]	Jarod Godel:	Search could be solved by exposing thr databas via web services.
[8:38]	Zero Linden:	What's blocking mono? Integration, testing testing testing, and all the fiddly bits about getting the world to run both for awhile and a clean switch over
[8:38]	Jarod Godel:	let Cristiano tap everything, cashe it, and provide his own interface
[8:38]	Zero Linden:	No - searching is clearly higher priority and there are folks on it
[8:38]	Rex Cronon:	there are people that would like to make something similar to half-life in sl
[8:38]	Zha Ewry:	For testing... I think it might be interesting to discuss how rsidents with thier own sims.. cold help test
[8:39]	Wyn Galbraith seconds Zha.
[8:39]	Tao Takashi:	more webservices is definitely interesting but I know that there are people working on that, too
[8:39]	Tao Takashi:	might be nice to get some sort of info from then someday
[8:39]	Tao Takashi:	same with search guys
[8:39]	Zero Linden:	Zha - yes, so mono testing sort of requires het-grid
[8:39]	Jarod Godel:	I think it'd be interesting for LL to create a test sim app and let everyone with a PC help them test
[8:40]	Khamon Fate:	We have a crashable sim already ha ha
[8:40]	Zero Linden:	Jarod - that is an interesting proposition
[8:40]	Khamon Fate:	It's called Crash Me
[8:40]	Zero Linden:	The hard part is that you'd need MySQL running on your box
[8:40]	Zero Linden:	and even the simple DB isn't so tiny
[8:40]	Jarod Godel:	Just cauterize the assett server connection, let us run evrything in the "sim" memory, and blow up script after script.
[8:41]	Zha Ewry is willing to install mySQL...
[8:41]	Zero Linden:	hmmmm.... we have this funny "grid-in-a-box" project......
[8:41]	Khamon Fate:	yeah I can install mySQL
[8:41]	Jarod Godel:	I have MySQL running.
[8:41]	Rex Cronon:	installing mysql is quite painless
[8:41]	Tao Takashi:	send VMware images or so ;)
[8:41]	Zero Linden:	It lets you turn a single rackmount linux box into a whole grid of one region (or two)
[8:41]	Khamon Fate:	Khamon Grundy want grid-in-a-box too!
[8:42]	Khamon Fate:	OpenSim has a similar installation. It works too.
[8:42]	Zero Linden:	hmmmm..... another interesting idea.....
[8:42]	Zero Linden:	Okay - well folks
[8:42]	Khamon Fate:	It's mui fun.
[8:42]	Zero Linden:	it is past that time
[8:42]	Zero Linden:	Thanks for coming
[8:42]	Khamon Fate:	Thanks for hosting Zero
[8:42]	Zero Linden:	I'll see you all next time
[8:42]	Wyn Galbraith:	Thanks Zero.
[8:42]	Gao Niangao:	thanks, Zero
[8:42]	Zero Linden:	I"m back full time next week -
[8:42]	Khamon Fate:	It *is* nice to have you back.
[8:42]	Tao Takashi:	thanks for hosting, Zero :)
[8:42]	Rex Cronon:	too bad u crashed quite a few times
[8:42]	Dr Scofield:	cu
[8:42]	Zero Linden:	and I'll try to have a topic schedule by next Tuesday's office hours
[8:42]	Zha Ewry:	Thanks as always, Zero
[8:42]	Zero Linden:	later!