User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2009 03 26

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[17:01]	Moon Metty:	that's ok Stickman
[17:01]	Stickman Ingmann:	Love the outfit, Andrew.
[17:01]	Arawn Spitteler:	First, don't hold anyone to an unspoken protocol.
[17:01]	Kitto Flora:	Hello everyone
[17:01]	Simon Linden:	THere's not much ... Andrew should arrive soon, and he typically may have an annoucement, then opens itu p for questions
[17:01]	Moon Metty:	Andrew :D
[17:01]	Rex Cronon:	hi everybody
[17:02]	Saijanai Kuhn:	hey rex
[17:02]	Moon Metty:	hey rexie
[17:02]	Arawn Spitteler:	Andrew should arrive soon, having already arrived.
[17:02]	Morgaine Dinova:	Don't worry Stickman, the only protocol is Be Polite and more or less stay on topic. :-)
[17:02]	Rex Cronon:	hiiu
[17:02]	Saijanai Kuhn:	"soon" has many interpretations
[17:02]	Simon Linden:	reality lag
[17:02]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, so announcements first...
[17:02]	Charlette Proto:	hi everyone sry I'm late
[17:02]	Arawn Spitteler:	If not sufficiently on topic, ask again ater.
[17:02]	Moon Metty:	soon is not soon enough
[17:03]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[17:03]	Andrew Linden:	The only news I've got is that I've inherited a project that is going to try to improve dwell calculations.
[17:03]	Andrew Linden:	Dunno when it will be complete or delivered.
[17:03]	Arawn Spitteler:	Dwell?
[17:03]	Moon Metty:	oh i love to dwell
[17:03]	Stickman Ingmann:	Dwell is the old word for Traffic.
[17:03]	Kitto Flora:	Av Dwell on land?
[17:03]	Andrew Linden:	Er... dwell = "traffic"
[17:03]	Andrew Linden:	parcel traffic measurements
[17:03]	Kitto Flora:	Dwellnor is dead, no?
[17:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hmmm ... /me wonders if dwell is a good thing or an extremely bad one
[17:03]	Arawn Spitteler:	The reason for so many bots
[17:04]	Andrew Linden:	Right. Ideally we would weed out the bot dwell if possible.
[17:04]	Kitto Flora:	YEah, dwell just gets gamed by Bots - its pretty useless
[17:04]	Krull Aeon:	Hi Ryu :D
[17:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	Why have dwell at all?
[17:04]	Kitto Flora:	Dwell used to get you money
[17:04]	Saijanai Kuhn:	well official bots would have an incentive to let themselves be known as bots if it was done right
[17:04]	Andrew Linden:	However, that argument has been made before... if parcel traffic were totally eliminated then most of the reasons for running bad stupid bots would vanish.
[17:04]	Ryu Darragh:	Hiyas
[17:05]	Andrew Linden:	(but not all reasons)
[17:05]	Simon Linden:	ah, ancient office hour rule - we can't dwell on dwell for too long
[17:05]	Arawn Spitteler:	Dialog Volume would still be gamed, but is a better measure of Mystic Academy, at the moment. How do the Nielson ratings work?
[17:05]	Moon Metty:	yes Andrew
[17:05]	Morgaine Dinova:	Haha Simon :-)
[17:05]	Ryu Darragh:	Hehe, Simon :P
[17:05]	Kitto Flora:	Too much looking at the Dwell angle?
[17:05]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, so the news is that there is some dev effort starting there, to be able to measure parcel traffic more accurately
[17:06]	Simon Linden:	Nielson used to ask people to keep a log of what they watched on TV -- not an approach we can use
[17:06]	Ryu Darragh:	Dwell has been permanently gamed for so long, the Popular Places tab is useless.
[17:06]	Morgaine Dinova:	Kitto: I wonder how many got that. :-)
[17:06]	Kitto Flora wonders who comes up with these far-out things when theres serious stuff needs fixing.
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	Otherwise I've just been fixing bugs. My maint-server-7 branch was borked, but is not fixored.
[17:07]	Kitto Flora:	Morgaine: Only the SMASHcar nuts.
[17:07]	Andrew Linden:	So, the table is now open. If someone has something to talk about they are welcome to raise it now.
[17:07]	Kitto Flora:	Problem:
[17:07]	Krull Aeon:	Does that apply to problems and or proposals
[17:08]	Kitto Flora:	A sim in which LSL apparently freezes for several seconds
[17:08]	Morgaine Dinova:	I'd still like to know why bother with dwell at all. It has many disadvantages, and even the alleged advantage of ranking being useful itself questionable.
[17:08]	Kitto Flora:	But physics keeps a-goin
[17:08]	Ryu Darragh:	I can wait for proposals.. have one..
[17:08]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, problems and/or proposals Krull.
[17:08]	Krull Aeon:	Thanks :)
[17:08]	Krull Aeon gave you New Category - 'AUTOMATION'.
[17:08]	Moon Metty:	even without dwell, there still the "green dot" efect on the map
[17:09]	Ryu Darragh:	We depend on it, somewhat.
[17:09]	Moon Metty:	but that's maybe less imortant
[17:09]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, tell me more about this script glitch.
[17:09]	Andrew Linden:	The script engine runs asynchronously to the physics engine, as you know.
[17:10]	Andrew Linden:	That is, where exactly the script gets paused is indeterminant.
[17:10]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew: I I have a customer Monorail install. It occasionally (several times a day) runs out of his parcel. I have managed to trace it to LSL apparently stopping, though TD is good
[17:10]	Andrew Linden:	So you need to write your scripts expecting them to be paused for a frame or two between any particular two calls.
[17:10]	Andrew Linden:	Naturally, a delay of several seconds is odd.
[17:10]	Kitto Flora:	I'm talking like 11 seconds of stop
[17:10]	Simon Linden:	hmm, if physics seemed to keep running, but the script wasn't, that suggests it wasn't getting execution time
[17:10]	Moon Metty:	that's often a sim freeze, Kitto
[17:11]	Simon Linden:	11 seconds is a long time
[17:11]	Ryu Darragh:	Sounds more like network delay.
[17:11]	Kitto Flora:	Doent show in TD
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, so that vehicle gets no script resources for a few seconds.
[17:11]	Moon Metty:	when an agent arrives there is a short freeze
[17:11]	Kitto Flora:	Yes
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	My theories as to why that would happen are:
[17:11]	Kitto Flora:	100 mS I can stand
[17:11]	Kitto Flora:	several seconds - no
[17:11]	Moon Metty:	dilation freezes too, so you don't see it
[17:11]	Simon Linden:	Moon - yes, that's due to adding all the attachments, scripts, and HUDs into the system in one step
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	(1) there is another group of scripts that are suddenly taking up most of the script resources, in a burst
[17:12]	Andrew Linden:	(2) since the script engine gets the dregs of the available runtime (I've mentioned this before...
[17:12]	Ryu Darragh:	I use UnixTime in a capture loop to monitor script perf and have never seen a pause of more than .5S to 1S.
[17:12]	Kitto Flora:	Ryu: Thats what these vehicles do
[17:12]	Moon Metty:	i've seen sims freeze for 22 seconds lol
[17:12]	Andrew Linden:	the simulator frame runs stuff (phys engine, network packets, outgoing data) and then at the end it figures out how much time it has left and gives it all to the script engine)
[17:12]	Stickman Ingmann:	I'd be interested in hearing more about that, Simon. Putting on one of my avatars causes a four second frame time.
[17:12]	Kitto Flora:	This freeze is so sudden the script cant calculate
[17:13]	Ryu Darragh:	Yep. Have seen Avatars do the SL Shuffle, too..
[17:13]	Andrew Linden:	If there is lots of time left then the script engine gets lots, if there is little time left then it gets little
[17:13]	Kitto Flora:	Well TD is up at 0.98, 0.99 - and pretty much flat
[17:13]	Rex Cronon:	what dou meana script cant calculate the delay?
[17:13]	Arawn Spitteler:	Avatars and attachments take time, in arrival
[17:13]	Charlette Proto:	get rid of RADARS especially the freebie and agent entry will not cause so much LSL probs
[17:14]	Andrew Linden:	Right, the script's execution may halt at any point (where it halts cannot be determined or influenced) . You mus assume that it will get halted at each and every possible point over some period of time.
[17:14]	Ryu Darragh:	UnixTime is independat of LSL/Mono VM.. it's highest priority next to networking and drive activity.
[17:14]	Kitto Flora:	Its essentally the same as the script in that thing
[17:14]	Krull Aeon:	What if the client detected if the local PC had a physics enhancement and used the local physics instead of the server side for processing
[17:14]	Andrew Linden:	Anyway... since the script engine gets the dregs of the available runtime there are a few things that could drain it of resources.
[17:14]	Kitto Flora:	Its showing how long to get a 'not at target'
[17:15]	Andrew Linden:	Actually, anything that were to hit the host hard in some way would probably hurt the script engine.
[17:15]	Kitto Flora:	The evidence I managed to gather so far on an 'event' is that it suddenly too 11S for the next not at target to arrive
[17:15]	Moon Metty:	the script engine appears to be last in the queue
[17:15]	Moon Metty:	why can't it get a guaranteed 20 % of the time?
[17:16]	Andrew Linden:	For example... if there were another simulator on the host that was thrashing the memory momentarily, then it could slow down another simulator, and the script engine would suffer disproportionatly more than some other things (such as network packet handling).
[17:16]	Ryu Darragh:	Have you tried running other identicaly running scripts to see if they all get the same delay?
[17:16]	Andrew Linden:	11 second delay?
[17:16]	Kitto Flora:	IS cpu sharing between co-hosted SIMS still not in effect?
[17:16]	Kitto Flora:	balanced share I mean
[17:17]	Charlette Proto:	OK so when will agent script load be available to users and LSL developers so the we can all look after the script load we cause
[17:17]	Andrew Linden:	the simulators don't share CPU's (for normal regions)
[17:17]	Simon Linden:	There is a minimum amout of time we always give to scripts every frame, but that's a fixed minimum time slice
[17:17]	Andrew Linden:	however the CPU's share memory so if thrashing were happening there then they all suffer
[17:17]	Kitto Flora:	Ryu: No .. but thats the next kind of level of diagnostics - if its worth it
[17:17]	Simon Linden:	Often not enough to run everything
[17:17]	Andrew Linden:	I'm just brainstorming here, dunno if that is happening in this case
[17:17]	Moon Metty:	then the thrashing is the thing to be avoided
[17:18]	Kitto Flora:	The BIG problem is that LSL slow/stops but physics does not.
[17:18]	Andrew Linden:	I'd have to examine the problem in more detail to know what is actually happening.
[17:18]	Simon Linden:	Same thing happens with disk access ... if multiple regions are doing heavy disk activity, they affect the others on the same machine
[17:18]	Kitto Flora:	For a vehicle in motion that like... the engine keeps you moving but the steeering wheel no longer works.
[17:18]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, I can investigate an incident for you, but as you know I'll need details:
[17:18]	Kitto Flora:	Ooops - you just ran off world
[17:18]	Andrew Linden:	region name, exact time (as exact as possible)
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	and a time that is not older than 7 days
[17:19]	Kitto Flora:	Well I can usually get that kind of data to you
[17:19]	Ryu Darragh:	Yes.. why I thought doing some time slice measurements, since a single script can get clobbered, but not the CPUs clock (that interrupt is #1 since it controls the threader in Unix)
[17:19]	Kitto Flora:	But .. can you look at in within 7 days?
[17:19]	Moon Metty:	Ryu: take an average
[17:19]	Charlette Proto:	who cares about vehicles when 1/2 the time we can't even walk arounf shops
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, I could probably squeeze it in within 7 days.
[17:19]	Charlette Proto:	around*
[17:19]	Kitto Flora:	OK...
[17:20]	Ryu Darragh:	Add that to checking an identical script for the same delay at the same time, and it's entirely server LSL time. Different results, and it's more likely networking/asset server related, yes?
[17:20]	Kitto Flora:	And by the comments here - this seems to not be n existing known problem.. least not one thats got Jirad
[17:20]	Arawn Spitteler shudders: Not Jiraed?
[17:20]	Kitto Flora:	Ryu: Theres no networking or asset stuff involved.
[17:21]	Andrew Linden:	So Krull, you had a proposal or something? You gave me an item but I haven't examined it yet.
[17:21]	Kitto Flora:	Arawan: Seems not
[17:21]	Andrew Linden:	Something about "Automation".
[17:21]	Krull Aeon:	Theres a notecard in that item hold on Ill pass it to you
[17:21]	Simon Linden:	It sounds pretty clearly like something else suddenly hogging the script time, as the frames kept running and physical motion continued
[17:21]	Krull Aeon gave you New Category - 'AUTOMATION'.
[17:21]	Kitto Flora:	Simon: Indeed
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	Ah... your proposal is for object heirarchy.
[17:22]	Krull Aeon:	Yes
[17:22]	Ryu Darragh:	What I mean, Kitto, is agent TP and rezzing and etc. can add latency to the script engine, but not to all scripts at the same time. Each one is intializing seperately.
[17:22]	Simon Linden:	There's been some talk about adjusting script priority so one parcel can't hog it, or owner's scripts get priority, but those are just ideas being thrown around at the moment
[17:23]	Krull Aeon:	But built into the vehicle physics system for smooth movement
[17:23]	Arawn Spitteler:	Object Heierarchy is a legendary linden regret.
[17:23]	Morgaine Dinova:	Aye
[17:23]	Andrew Linden:	I think it has been more than just talk. I think I was stumbling upon some early code implementation of that today. (parcel script resource allocation)
[17:23]	Ryu Darragh:	Lava Code ?
[17:24]	Andrew Linden:	No Ryu, this would be new code not yet released.
[17:24]	Ryu Darragh:	:P
[17:24]	Andrew Linden:	I didn't examine it in detail.
[17:24]	Simon Linden:	ah, good, maybe that can help someday. I know some of the Mono folks have looked at it
[17:24]	Andrew Linden:	Krull, yes we need object heirarcy.
[17:24]	Andrew Linden:	However... I have no idea when we'll actually make progress on it.
[17:24]	Moon Metty:	it will be great, but also complicated
[17:25]	Kitto Flora:	Is that linked sets of linksets?
[17:25]	Andrew Linden:	I had some ideas once about how I might be able to sneak some heirarchy into the system... but it is a daunting task.
[17:25]	Arawn Spitteler:	For cars, I'd like to try Texture Anim Spinning, but havent' the tread texture yet.
[17:25]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, sub-sets that move together Kitto.
[17:25]	Ryu Darragh:	And how.. indexed records awayyyy!
[17:25]	Krull Aeon:	I've added two values and a new vehicle type to the proposal
[17:25]	Kitto Flora:	That would allow for some better animated objects
[17:26]	Kitto Flora:	Arawn: Most crs the wheels dont actually turn, the texture kjust rotataes or slides.
[17:26]	Krull Aeon:	Was thinking there might be a way to sneak it through vehicles
[17:27]	Andrew Linden:	Ah ok Krull, you're proposing a script convention workaround for lack of object heirarchy.
[17:27]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm...
[17:27]	Andrew Linden:	some people would use it
[17:27]	Arawn Spitteler:	Yeah, I haven't the texture to animate, yet.
[17:27]	Kitto Flora:	In vehicles would it increas the allowed number of prims?
[17:27]	Andrew Linden:	and it would be clunky, but it would make some things possible that are not yet
[17:27]	Charlette Proto:	not just animated stuff everything would benefir from hierarchies eg edit stais (all steps) inside a linked house that can be moved all at unce
[17:27]	Arawn Spitteler:	Having follower states, that respond to changes in other objects might also be nice.
[17:27]	Krull Aeon:	Yes my thoughts exactly
[17:28]	Charlette Proto:	how did thi flat land ever make a release codebase makes my head ache
[17:28]	Andrew Linden:	Krull, perhaps you can try to describe your proposal in a few short sentences for the rest of the crowd here.
[17:29]	Saijanai Kuhn:	I thought it was due to conficts with Havok 0.9 and what was expected or something
[17:29]	Krull Aeon:	Sure
[17:29]	Andrew Linden:	And that my also help me understand it. I skimmed the notecard, but I don't think I fully grok it yet.
[17:29]	Krull Aeon:	If we have an object with 10 children then we can programatically move sections in steps
[17:30]	Krull Aeon:	So for example I have an indutrial robot with a few joints
[17:30]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... and you've proposed it as a VEHICLE_PARAM. I'm confused why it would be vehicle-only.
[17:30]	Moon Metty:	you mean a skeleton for linksets Krull?
[17:30]	Krull Aeon:	Yes
[17:31]	Krull Aeon:	I just rezzed a board illistrating my idea
[17:31]	Andrew Linden:	Sure Krull, how about this. Suppose we have a 100-prim robot, and each arm is 10 prims. How do we move the whole arm at the shoulder?
[17:31]	Arawn Spitteler:	Industrial robot? I recall aproblem with llSetRot on child prims.
[17:31]	Arawn Spitteler:	Anyone recall that Jira?
[17:31]	Andrew Linden:	SVC-93?
[17:31]	Moon Metty:	lol 93
[17:31]	Moon Metty:	that's the rotations
[17:31]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hehe, rot on child prims takes us back to hierarchical objects.
[17:32]	Andrew Linden:	oh, well rotation... llSetRot(). I was close
[17:32]	Moon Metty:	Qarl's nightmare
[17:32]	Krull Aeon:	But instead these relative functions would be coded into the vehicle
[17:32]	Krull Aeon:	So joint 15 say, at prim 50, would move all subsequent children from 51 down
[17:33]	Arawn Spitteler:	So, the vehicle would have a parameter, by which to spin a linked set?
[17:33]	Krull Aeon:	Yes
[17:33]	Krull Aeon:	And the vehicle type would be Automation
[17:33]	Andrew Linden:	yeah well... the order in which the child-prims are numbered is not all that obvious
[17:34]	Arawn Spitteler:	VEHICLE_TYPE_FOLLOWER could simulate what you want.
[17:34]	Andrew Linden:	you'd need a way to define a set, and the set might not necessarily be contiguous
[17:34]	Charlette Proto:	yeah numbers are a naff way to deal with that
[17:34]	Krull Aeon:	I would follow the rule blindly, regardless of contiguous links or not
[17:34]	Ryu Darragh:	Someone mentioned a way using shift [ and ] to navigate through a linkset and set theta stuff..
[17:35]	Rex Cronon:	there might be a way to do something close to what u want krull:)
[17:35]	Krull Aeon:	Cool :)
[17:35]	Morgaine Dinova:	Every object should have its own linkset for children. A finished product should be a tree.
[17:35]	Charlette Proto:	agrees with morgaine
[17:35]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew: Does Havok4 have any concept of heirarchical link sets?
[17:35]	Rex Cronon:	but, each link would require its own script
[17:35]	Andrew Linden:	If Morgaine will allow me to paraphrase: "Objects should have heirarchy."
[17:36]	Morgaine Dinova:	Heh
[17:36]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, yes Havok4 allows heirarchy
[17:36]	Moon Metty:	the trick is to find a protocol
[17:36]	Andrew Linden:	If I had to speculate about how long it would take to overhaul our code to allow heirarchy I wonder what I would guess.
[17:37]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well to engineer higher level products, we have to be able to buy opaque components from 3rd parties and assemble them into something larger. And then that becomes a component for others.
[17:37]	Ryu Darragh:	Heh.. which I am trying to figure out, too.. limited flexi physics as a client side operation :P
[17:37]	Andrew Linden:	(I'm terrible at guestimating how long big projects will take)
[17:37]	Arawn Spitteler:	Open it for us amateurs, and I'm sure we can inspire a proffessional approach
[17:37]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Andrew, it might happen faster than you think. WE've almost got our scriptable client working so you can test things clientside at least
[17:37]	Kitto Flora:	Depends on the Interupt priority level
[17:37]	Simon Linden:	Heirarchy would take a lot of work, especially on the viewer to get the UI right
[17:37]	Saijanai Kuhn points to his statement above ;-)
[17:37]	Moon Metty:	yes Simon, and a philosophy
[17:38]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... would it be possible to introduce heirarchy server-side, ignoring the client initially?
[17:38]	Morgaine Dinova marks this OH for Sai as "Duly spammed with PyOGP" ;-)
[17:38]	Saijanai Kuhn preens
[17:38]	Charlette Proto:	Saijanai please throw in a URL for those interested
[17:38]	Moon Metty:	the client has to understand which parts are part of a joint
[17:38]	Morgaine Dinova:	No URL, because I can't get Sai to check it into SVN!!!!!
[17:38]	Morgaine Dinova:	Grrrrr
[17:39]	Krull Aeon:	Essentially every prim is a potential joint
[17:39]	Kitto Flora gets the notecard: He want cascading links
[17:39]	Saijanai Kuhn:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Pyogp/Client_Lib/The_Development_Sandbox
[17:39]	Kitto Flora:	Cascading is a new one
[17:39]	Morgaine Dinova:	That's not a link to code
[17:39]	Saijanai Kuhn:	and the latest version:
[17:40]	Morgaine Dinova:	Krull: very interesting note
[17:40]	Saijanai Kuhn:	enus ported me in to see that today. That's one script running 20 bots
[17:40]	Andrew Linden:	We-elll... in a heirarchy you would define subsets. You would then rotate those subsets about arbitrary axes and offsets.
[17:40]	Krull Aeon:	Thanks Morgaine :)
[17:40]	Charlette Proto:	does this say anything? not to me
[17:40]	Andrew Linden:	That is... for each subset transformation you would have to specify the angle, axis, and offset.
[17:40]	Saijanai Kuhn:	NOW mark the O H as officially spammed
[17:40]	Ryu Darragh:	One linkset avatars with articulated joints :P
[17:40]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hehe
[17:40]	Kitto Flora:	Cascading is a special case of Heirachical link sets: Multiple sets, only 1 daughter in each set
[17:40]	Arawn Spitteler:	Do objects have any way of receiving nudges from other objects?
[17:41]	Moon Metty:	it really is complicated
[17:41]	Andrew Linden:	"nudges" Arawn?
[17:41]	Moon Metty:	but it can be solved
[17:41]	Krull Aeon:	lol
[17:41]	Ryu Darragh:	Takes a huge hit computationally to calulate the vextors.
[17:41]	Kitto Flora:	Its more like re-entrant code for linksets
[17:41]	Ryu Darragh:	vectors :P
[17:41]	Arawn Spitteler:	If an object were to pay another object, to make it check e-mails of new locations, it wouldn't cost the owner anything.
[17:41]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Charlette, Simon was saying it take a long while to test the client-side part. That's what the python client is for
[17:41]	Charlette Proto:	look at Richard Bartle's "Designing Virtual Worlds" for a god discussion on cases of conainer objects etc
[17:42]	Moon Metty:	the biggest problem is to create an interface
[17:42]	Charlette Proto:	yah I like the idea Saij but didn't make any sense of what you rezzed
[17:42]	Arawn Spitteler assumes htis a good discussion, rather than one amongst armed lindens.
[17:42]	Kitto Flora:	I dont think its any more complex than the present compute load for link sets. What counts is the number of prims in the link set
[17:42]	Andrew Linden:	The interface is not MY biggest problem. I'd just be happy if I could fix the server side code and let others implement the interface.
[17:43]	Morgaine Dinova:	Wow, not heard that name in decades. I have Bartle's origonal book on AIs in games, very dog-eared antique.
[17:43]	Saijanai Kuhn:	ah, sorry, was just proof of concept of controlling 20 bots in one script at the same time
[17:43]	Moon Metty:	hehe ok
[17:43]	Andrew Linden:	In my mind the UI interface would just get done by someone, and would get better and better over time.
[17:43]	Charlette Proto:	which Morgaine Bartle???
[17:43]	Saijanai Kuhn:	so you could test 20 UIs to do the same thing by prototyping in python
[17:43]	Moon Metty:	yes, but to make it easy to understand, like building is now?
[17:44]	Morgaine Dinova:	lol Morgaine Bartle :P
[17:44]	Charlette Proto:	got one thing wrong in the book - multiple inheritance in C== otherwise the best text I've seen
[17:44]	Kitto Flora:	Hard to see a simple way to display a H. linkset in the UI
[17:44]	Moon Metty:	i can use one 3D program, but it takes a long time to learn a new 3d program
[17:44]	Charlette Proto:	tee read it if you care about Second Life™
[17:44]	Saijanai Kuhn:	well an easier UI woul dbe an easier UI. You could just come up with one faster if you could prototype it faster (NOT something the C++ client is known for)
[17:45]	Moon Metty:	SL has always been easy to understand, for building
[17:45]	Moon Metty:	really awseome
[17:45]	Krull Aeon:	Well Shift+Ctrl+Alt+T gives me the texture face so why not Shift+Ctrl+Alt+L for the linkset value
[17:45]	Kitto Flora:	I'm surprised that I'm not hgetting a hit in Jira for H. Linksets
[17:46]	Charlette Proto:	that is if you don't know 3D progs Moon for 3D pros Second Life™ building is a frustrating joke
[17:46]	Ryu Darragh:	Try just heirarchical and other similar terms
[17:46]	Ryu Darragh:	Nested
[17:46]	Moon Metty:	SL building can't get any easier
[17:47]	Andrew Linden:	Such as what Charlette? Which 3D programs in particular?
[17:47]	Krull Aeon:	Two functions are proposed, linear movement and rotation for hierarchical link subsets
[17:47]	Rex Cronon:	it could get easier
[17:47]	Charlette Proto:	Moon you are kidding I'm talking about how tedious it is
[17:47]	Stickman Ingmann:	The only thing I miss is hitting Q or X to kill the gizmo, so I don't accidently move a piece when I'm trying to select things.
[17:47]	Moon Metty:	well try other programs Charlette :D
[17:47]	Rex Cronon:	that is if the build mendu would allow to select an specific lin:)
[17:47]	Moon Metty:	it's always fun though
[17:47]	Rex Cronon:	link*
[17:48]	Stickman Ingmann:	I don't mean to bust in, but it's getting close to the hour, and I was hoping to broach a quick topic or two.
[17:48]	Kitto Flora:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-428
[17:48]	Charlette Proto:	well anthing with transforms on objects (any) especially symetries (reflectional, rotational and translational) Andrew
[17:48]	Kitto Flora:	Hierarchical linking of prim/objects
[17:48]	Morgaine Dinova:	Charlette: I finally found it on shelf: "Artificial Intelligence and Computer Games", Richard Bartle, 1985. :-)
[17:48]	Andrew Linden:	Stickman, type your topic to chat.
[17:48]	Charlette Proto:	no 2004
[17:48]	Rex Cronon:	and if u could possibly be able to see the UUID of a aselected link
[17:48]	Kitto Flora:	45 votes, 11 watchers. Fairly warm
[17:48]	Andrew Linden:	(sometimes you need to repeat your topic if it doesn't get picked up)
[17:49]	Charlette Proto:	amazing book no kidding Moragaine
[17:49]	Stickman Ingmann:	I make avatars that deal with deformations. I can grab the Jira if someone's not familiar with it. There's one bug I haven't been able to automate:
[17:49]	Saijanai Kuhn looks at the hours of spam he's spent promoting jiras...
[17:49]	Stickman Ingmann:	When you change your shape while deformed, you sink into the ground (or float, depending). The only way to fix it is to undeform, and change your shape again.
[17:49]	Ryu Darragh:	Ah, yes.. the hip displacement error
[17:49]	Andrew Linden:	Yes Stickman.
[17:49]	Stickman Ingmann:	I'm wondering how that's calculated, and how hard it would be to fix. I THINK it's actually in the viewer code, because it seems to be client specific.
[17:49]	Charlette Proto:	title exactly as I sataed it Richard Bartle, "Designing Virtual Worlds"
[17:49]	Arawn Spitteler'd also like to interject that he set the Mystic Academy Sandbox to a certain MP-3, and wonders that andrew isn't sufficiently vain to do likewise: We should also make ritual mention ofSVC-22, where objects somehow don't recall that they've been linked.
[17:50]	Morgaine Dinova:	lol @ Arawn :P
[17:50]	Andrew Linden:	The application of the new avatar shape doesn't actually happen until the SL client sends a "commit"
[17:50]	Charlette Proto:	if Philip and Cory read this book we would be a laughing bunch no kidding
[17:50]	Andrew Linden:	it is at that point that the new collision shape is computed and the avatar's feet meet the ground properly again
[17:51]	Andrew Linden:	It would be possible to handle periodic "commits" I suppose...
[17:51]	Simon Linden:	yeah, I've been waiting to paste a certain url in here before I leave...
[17:51]	Andrew Linden:	but if you didn't click [Save] at the end then you would have to revert back to where you started... and the server would have to remember what that was
[17:51]	Kitto Flora:	Is for a good porn site Simon?
[17:52]	Andrew Linden:	atm the server only knows one shape... the one it thinks you have
[17:52]	Andrew Linden:	Go for it Simon.
[17:52]	Moon Metty:	:)
[17:52]	Simon Linden:	https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/press/blog/2009/03/24/inside-the-lab-podcast-meet-long-time-linden-andrew-meadows
[17:52]	Kitto Flora:	Been there
[17:52]	Kitto Flora:	Done that
[17:53]	Kitto Flora gives Andrew a rocket :)
[17:53]	Charlette Proto:	hehe Simon
[17:53]	Stickman Ingmann:	Well, Andrew, I think it's a bit different than that.
[17:53]	Simon Linden:	Kitto - aren't we on the best porn site? :)
[17:53]	Rex Cronon:	have u lauched any rocket recently:)
[17:53]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hehe
[17:53]	Andrew Linden:	No rockets since '99
[17:53]	Arawn Spitteler could use a good haptic designer, if he had the money to promote an idea.
[17:53]	Kitto Flora:	Simon: Only the worst rags think so :)
[17:53]	Ryu Darragh:	I have a rocket cookie... 4096m in a few seconds..
[17:53]	Stickman Ingmann:	See, when an avatar teleports in, to an outside viewer, there seems to be a race condition between the deformation playing, and the shape being set. If the deformation plays first, the new person is seen sinking into the ground.
[17:53]	Stickman Ingmann:	The shape often changes first, but not always.
[17:54]	Stickman Ingmann:	So the person may see themselves as fine, but others may or may not see them sunk into the ground.
[17:54]	Andrew Linden:	Ah Stickman, I thought you were talking about during avatar appearance modification
[17:54]	Andrew Linden:	but you're talking about teleport arrival or region crossings
[17:54]	Morgaine Dinova:	I'm actually surprised that there aren't more feature suggestions from the adult community, given the interest.
[17:54]	Ryu Darragh:	Not just, Andrew.
[17:54]	Stickman Ingmann:	Teleport arrivals, or otherwise walking into someone's viewer range, basically.
[17:54]	Ryu Darragh:	Also on avatar changes with the Seawolf
[17:55]	Stickman Ingmann:	The key here is deformations. Helena Lycia talked with you about them a few weeks back.
[17:55]	Charlette Proto:	AVATAR ORIENTATION VARIABLE PLEASE!!!
[17:55]	Arawn Spitteler:	Oh, so you arrive, see a sitting avatar, and then the avatar might change shape, as previously set?
[17:55]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... I'm not sure I'm getting a correct understanding of the issue you're talking about Stickman, but I wonder if it has to do with "avatar imposter" technology in the SL client
[17:55]	Charlette Proto:	is so sick of facing the wrong way
[17:55]	Stickman Ingmann:	I can demonstrate it real quick.
[17:56]	Andrew Linden:	Stickman, try disabling "avatar impostors" in your preferences and see if it still happens.
[17:56]	Arawn Spitteler found Imposter borkish
[17:56]	Ryu Darragh:	It has to do with the out of limits avatar deformations used in the Seawolf Avatars
[17:56]	Stickman Ingmann:	Let me show you the problem. I'm not sure I'm explaining it well.
[17:56]	Kitto Flora offsets
[17:57]	Andrew Linden:	PreferencesMenu --> GraphicsTab --> [x] CustomBox --> [ ] AvatarImpostorsBox
[17:57]	Stickman Ingmann:	See my legs? I've deformed them to two times their normal length.
[17:57]	Kitto Flora:	Yeah
[17:57]	SuesseMaus Hotaling:	hihihi
[17:57]	Andrew Linden:	ah ok I get it
[17:57]	Kitto Flora:	I seen avs that look like that
[17:57]	Stickman Ingmann:	Now, if I change my shape...
[17:57]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hi, Sweetmouse, welcomke to Andrew Hour
[17:57]	SuesseMaus Hotaling:	helllooooo
[17:57]	Charlette Proto:	but you are stickman so what do you expect???
[17:57]	Stickman Ingmann:	I'm floating off the ground.
[17:57]	Andrew Linden:	what technology did you use to distort? Hacked animations right?
[17:57]	Ryu Darragh:	Andrew, is it alright if I give you two folders of the kinds of avatar deformation animations Stickman is taliing about?
[17:58]	Stickman Ingmann:	Yes. Basically change the root in an animation, and it moves that joint instead.
[17:58]	SuesseMaus Hotaling:	`*•.¸ ✿ Moinseen :P ✿ ¸.•*´
[17:58]	SuesseMaus Hotaling:	all
[17:58]	SuesseMaus Hotaling:	^^
[17:58]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, so the simulator doesn't know anything about animation distortions
[17:58]	Charlette Proto:	well you haven't seen SPARTA or SUPERDANCE Stickman???
[17:58]	Ryu Darragh:	Right
[17:58]	Andrew Linden:	it doesn't download or parse the animation data that you're running
[17:58]	Ryu Darragh:	The animation needs to be played whenver somone comes into view
[17:58]	Andrew Linden:	so it still thinks you have the regular default avatar size
[17:58]	Ryu Darragh gave you Deformer Package.
[17:58]	Ryu Darragh gave you UnDeformer package.
[17:58]	SuesseMaus Hotaling:	SuesseMaus Hotaling
[17:59]	Ryu Darragh:	And needs to be refreshed when changing them
[17:59]	Andrew Linden:	So, in order to get what you want the simulator would have to read the animation and compute a new avatar length
[17:59]	SuesseMaus Hotaling:	löööööl nice bear^^
[17:59]	Andrew Linden:	incidentally, the avatar shape is actually quite "simpler" than the visible shape you see
[17:59]	Ryu Darragh:	Yes.. but the problem is, the HIP displacement is also included and it changes
[17:59]	Morgaine Dinova:	I'm wonder what MMOX will do about animation for interop. No way is SL's method going to be portable, dreadful hack for everything except one size avs.
[17:59]	Ryu Darragh:	So the Avatar sinks into the ground
[17:59]	Andrew Linden:	and it is limited... you are limited in how small you can make it, or how large
[18:00]	Charlette Proto:	could animations be defined from inside the LSL instead of loading a file???
[18:00]	Andrew Linden:	and that cannot be overriden by making a tiny avatar or a distorted giant
[18:00]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Morgaine, realXtend has something more extensible but I'm sure that other worlds will need even more extensions
[18:00]	Arawn Spitteler:	I recall Andrew was working on that, when they gave up to focus on the virtual world
[18:00]	Rex Cronon:	i would like to be able to bend one finger at a time:)
[18:00]	Andrew Linden:	What SL could potentially handle would be a dynamic size update coming from your SL client
[18:01]	Ryu Darragh:	It seems like a client side limit on how fast or how well out of limit avatar XML files get shared.
[18:01]	Charlette Proto:	mee too Rex
[18:01]	Saijanai Kuhn:	realxtend has an optional mesh def that gets sent at the start for custom avies, I believe
[18:01]	Andrew Linden:	That is, your client computes exactly what shape and size your avatar is, at some frequency, and the SL server could (in theory) abide by that setting as long as it was sane
[18:01]	Arawn Spitteler imagines Rex leaving one finger unbent: Real-Time Animation might work on P2P
[18:01]	Charlette Proto:	I'd give you a thumb up Rex right now
[18:01]	Rex Cronon:	lol:)
[18:01]	Krull Aeon:	lol
[18:02]	Andrew Linden:	Ack. the hour is up and I've got to be somewhere within an hour again.
[18:02]	Andrew Linden:	I'm going to have to go very soon.
[18:02]	Morgaine Dinova:	It's no joke. Fingers are an important element of expression for humans, it's necessary.
[18:02]	Krull Aeon:	Hmmmm I'm thinking sculpted Hirarchical fingers :D
[18:02]	Charlette Proto:	so what about animations defined from inside the LSL instead of loading a file???
[18:02]	Stickman Ingmann:	So Andrew, what I'm seeing is that when the shape changes, it's a problem. What you're saying is that the avatar should always act like the shape has changed when it deforms. Is that correct?
[18:02]	Ryu Darragh:	Well, a Deep Space Simulator can be discussed next time :P
[18:02]	Moon Metty:	it was a good meeting Andrew :)
[18:02]	Charlette Proto:	is it worth thinking about
[18:02]	Morgaine Dinova:	Thanks Andrew, Simon :-)
[18:02]	Krull Aeon:	Thanks :)
[18:02]	Stickman Ingmann:	Sorry my issue wasn't as quick as I thought. :)
[18:03]	Charlette Proto:	thanks Andrew Simon and all attending today
[18:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	It's a great issue, Stickman.
[18:03]	Andrew Linden:	What I'm saying is that right now, if you deform your avatar, the SL server knows nothing about it... except that it does have a pipeline for sending animation (distorion) updates to the other SL clients which can see you.
[18:03]	Kitto Flora:	llSetRot(DIGITS,3,STRAIGHT);
[18:03]	Arawn Spitteler wonders why Mrs. Andrew doesn't do something with his parcel, like run a railroad through the house, Disney Style
[18:03]	Andrew Linden:	It doesn't parse any meaning into the animation/distortion state.
[18:04]	Moon Metty:	ok
[18:04]	Andrew Linden is lazy about certain things, Arawn.
[18:04]	Arawn Spitteler:	Women love parcels; turn her loose.
[18:04]	Ryu Darragh:	It seems the Client will leave a deformed state in the clients Avatar XML file if it goes out of limits.
[18:04]	Stickman Ingmann:	So the issue is entirely client related, and I should bother a Linden that works on the client? :)
[18:04]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, thanks for coming everyone.
[18:04]	Rex Cronon:	bye everybody
[18:04]	Stickman Ingmann:	Thanks for the help, Andrew.
[18:05]	Moon Metty:	see you soon :)
[18:05]	Rex Cronon:	have fun
[18:05]	Saijanai Kuhn:	laters all
[18:05]	Moon Metty:	thanks Simon :)
[18:05]	Simon Linden:	Thanks all for coming
[18:05]	Morgaine Dinova:	Thanks Andrew, Simon. And take care everyone :-)
[18:05]	Andrew Linden:	Stickman, the solution for what you want would involve both the SL server and client
[18:05]	Ryu Darragh:	'S what I said, Stickman. Client holds the Avatar shape in an XML file.
[18:05]	Arawn Spitteler:	Properly, we don't meet to have our questions answerd, but input what questions we'd like answered
[18:05]	Ryu Darragh:	But, the server sends it to all agents and child agents.. once.
[18:06]	Morgaine Dinova:	Sounds to me like we need a Jira for some simple server functionality to aid in this area.
[18:06]	Ryu Darragh:	Maybe a llRefreshAvatarAnimation()