User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2009 04 21

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[11:01]	xstorm Radek:	oh crap a sim has stop working
[11:01]	Kitto Flora:	Yay Andrew!
[11:01]	Andrew Linden:	hello
[11:01]	xstorm Radek:	hi Andrew
[11:01]	Twisted Laws:	hello
[11:01]	Yann Dufaux:	hello morgaine :)
[11:01]	Arawn Spitteler:	Welcome back, Andrew
[11:01]	Ade Franklin:	hello
[11:01]	Rex Cronon:	i hope they didn't take off due to the schorching temp:)
[11:01]	Uni Ninetails:	hihi Andrew
[11:01]	Moon Metty:	hey Andrew :)
[11:02]	Rex Cronon:	hello andrew
[11:02]	Morgaine Dinova waves
[11:02]	Yann Dufaux:	hi Andrew :)
[11:02]	Arawn Spitteler sees Rex is wearing his stylish turban, today
[11:02]	Yann Dufaux:	hello Moon!! :D
[11:02]	Morgaine Dinova:	Already back Andrew? They don't give you folks very long holidays :-))))
[11:02]	Moon Metty:	hi Yann :)
[11:03]	Arawn Spitteler:	He just needed a couple days to catch up on his technical manuals
[11:03]	Yannick Messmer:	Hi
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	That was a full week vacation. Pretty long as my vacations go.
[11:03]	Rex Cronon:	u do know that my turban is actually a wizard hat sculpltie that seems to be magically laggy:(
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	Ok looks like we've got a big crowd today.
[11:04]	Andrew Linden:	Announcements...
[11:04]	Kitto Flora:	Along with big problems
[11:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	No Simon, we tired him out last week :P
[11:04]	Ade Franklin:	yep yep
[11:04]	Yann Dufaux:	yeah, i have little troubsoth with new pn version
[11:04]	Andrew Linden:	We're working on a server-1.26.3 which will hopefully go out this week or early next.
[11:04]	Bau Ur:	While you were gone the servers got drunk. Now they're hung over and 4000 regions are offline. Welcome home, dude.
[11:04]	Yann Dufaux:	troubleshot*
[11:04]	Apollo Reinard:	lol
[11:05]	Arawn Spitteler:	Gunnes don't kill rezzis, Troubleshooters kill Rezzis, or maybe that's processes?
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	I guess that is all I've got. I'm still trying to work through a pile of delayed issues, not all of them bugs.
[11:05]	Arawn Spitteler:	The total recode of PrimParams?
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	I know someone was going to attend with issues to bring up... something about wearing megaprims that cause the avatar to not render.
[11:06]	Glyph Graves:	*coughs
[11:06]	Twisted Laws:	Lag seems to be much worse under 1.26.2 in public places. Are you aware of any causes for that?
[11:06]	Kitto Flora:	Camping Bots, and the damage they are doing to Sim Physics.
[11:06]	Eata Kitty pulls out Jira
[11:06]	Ade Franklin:	yep locking up the physics totaly
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	Arawn, I've seen the comments on that SVC-93 bug go through my email inbox, but I haven't been following it too closely.
[11:06]	Arawn Spitteler:	Megaprims? I know of an ARC that is used that way
[11:06]	Apollo Reinard:	omg.. whoever wears a mega.. needs so badly NOT to render.
[11:06]	Yann Dufaux:	hmmm, too many physical prims , can cause big lag :p
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, the bot-selection problem is known. I've been meaning to fix that but haven't been able to get to it yet.
[11:07]	Arawn Spitteler:	The fact that SVC-93 is still an issue, soundsd like the code ispoisoned
[11:07]	Arawn Spitteler:	Bot Selection? Is that something like the Touring Testt?
[11:07]	Kitto Flora:	Adrew: Anyting we can do for now? TThis is a real headache
[11:08]	Kitto Flora:	Is it a griefing tool, potentially?
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, I don't know of any workaround except kicking the bots.
[11:08]	Eata Kitty:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4148
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, it is a potential grief mode.
[11:09]	Kitto Flora:	For those unaware here is the problem:
[11:09]	Kitto Flora:	This is about 'camping bots'. The subject has been raised here before. Camping bots are regular Avatars that are using either a special client or a HUD. They Teleport to a known 'camping' location, find the camper and sit on it. They do not communicate with other Avatars.
[11:09]	Kitto Flora:	The BIG problem is that shorty after they arrive in the region, physics is damaged. Vehicles will not move, objects that rotate - possibly using 'omega' function - no longer move. This affects the whole region. When Bots are expelled from the region physics works normally again. Stats and LSL run speeds show no anomolies for the affected region.
[11:09]	Eata Kitty:	Why would a bot cause problems over a regular avatar
[11:10]	Twisted Laws:	The bot auto-selects all objects in the sim
[11:10]	Morgaine Dinova:	That doesn't actuall say anything
[11:10]	Rex Cronon:	i think it has something to do with how many bots are in a sim
[11:10]	Kitto Flora:	Someone - perhaps by accident... so far .. .ahs found a method to stop vehicle and perhaps Omega motion in an entire sim
[11:10]	Ade Franklin:	i was told when i put the ticket in it cause they press everything on sim
[11:10]	Bau Ur:	I really hate how the phyics engine gets tweaked to dampen griefer behaviors, and then all of us who want to do cool stuff can't do it because of the inhibitions. I hope there is a way to deal with *this* problem in a way that does not interfere with scripting or degrade functions for everyone else.
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	Eata, the reason is that the default SL client will send a "deselect object" message. These bots do not.
[11:10]	Eata Kitty:	Oh I see
[11:10]	Eata Kitty:	How awkward
[11:10]	Mystical Demina:	how is camping different than a big party with 50+ people?
[11:11]	Mystical Demina:	still have to fix it i think
[11:11]	Rex Cronon:	a bot can select all objects in a sim?
[11:11]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew: So they are using a hacked client tahts not sending the correct messages?
[11:11]	Ade Franklin:	a lot differet .. all my sim locked out heheh
[11:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	Ah, right. Well that's a sim bug. You should never rely on the client doing something, or not doing it.
[11:11]	Rex Cronon:	that might explain the lag
[11:11]	Eata Kitty:	Well Morgaine you have to decide what the selection limit is going to be. And if you say, 1024 prims, whats going to stop someone using several bots selecting different objects...
[11:12]	Rex Cronon:	an drew, do u rmemeber when i asked that there should be a way to know who selected what object:)
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	Yes Rex, they can select everything. My plan is to somehow throttle the selection of bots and do selection garbage collection
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	but it will also be useful as a "dumb bot" detector
[11:12]	Eata Kitty:	catchpa on selection
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	Internally LL is interested in detecting which accounts are bots
[11:12]	Bau Ur:	Yeah! Solve the problem from that angle please!
[11:12]	Ade Franklin:	i have a list of loads of them
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	however, we expect that if we crack down on them the arms race will start going very fast
[11:13]	Kitto Flora:	Hundreds of Accts Andrew
[11:13]	Poeffie Messmer:	a report button?
[11:13]	Twisted Laws:	well. the autoselection stuff is in the PAR routines that go between a standard client and the network layer
[11:13]	Nite Zelmanov:	It sure will
[11:13]	Kitto Flora:	Er the arms race has started
[11:13]	Eata Kitty:	I think the number of bots is probably very scary
[11:13]	Kitto Flora:	I have countermeasures
[11:13]	Twisted Laws:	so it can be a user in a client
[11:13]	Rex Cronon:	i don't think that catchpa should be used if u selecte an limited amoutn of objects
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	yes the arms race is in progress
[11:13]	Eata Kitty:	Rex: It was a joke :P
[11:14]	Kitto Flora:	So do we continue with the arms race, or will LL get on this problem and fix it quick?
[11:14]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: same method applies as in the discussion about grief/abuse/megaprim control 2 weeks ago: give everything a cost proportional to its effect. Selection should have a cost proportional to the number of items selected, and that cost should rise the longer the selection is maintained. Beyond a certain cost, something is done.
[11:15]	Yann Dufaux:	i think the lad is caused by sulpty texture loading :)
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	Morgaine, I wonder if it is that easy. Sounds like there are some bad consequences of a simple algorithm like that
[11:15]	Rex Cronon:	there shuld be a way to find out what avatar is selecting what object, at least for physical ones
[11:15]	Yann Dufaux:	lad = kag* sorry
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	but I don't have any solid answers/ideas on the bot selection problem yet
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	some half baked ideas
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, when it comes to "fix it quick" I'm pessimistic today,
[11:15]	Rex Cronon:	if u know who does it than ucan at leas AR if on public sim
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	maybe tomorrow I'll be more optimistic
[11:16]	Ade Franklin:	i found out with kitto some interesting ways of breaking there lock
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	but the barriers to getting bug fixes deployed quickly seem to be piling up in LL
[11:16]	Kitto Flora:	Is it known that the problem is just a lack of the 'deselect' message?
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, the fundamental problem is that we can't trust the SL client to behave nicely
[11:17]	Kitto Flora:	I Nkow
[11:17]	Kitto Flora:	Thats not the Q
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	right now the simulator expects the SL client to provide the "deselct object" messages when it selects a new one
[11:17]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: it's a tweakable mechanism, because the cost assignment chain can have any number of heuristics added to it. Each case is different, agreed, but you just add new cost heuristics to the list for each case. They all work symmetrically though once the aggregate cost hits a threshold: "something happens", :-)
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	however... the viewer can currently select many objects at once
[11:17]	Twisted Laws:	unless you have shift key down
[11:17]	Rex Cronon:	the cleint already is not trusgted to create megaprims:)
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	and can add new selections to an existing set
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	yes Rex, there are many things for which we do not trust the client
[11:18]	Kitto Flora:	In essence this seems to be the old 'grab' problem
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	however there are still some where we do
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	and those are where many bugs/grief-modes lie
[11:18]	Ade Franklin:	andrew cause these camping bots are drawn to campers .. if a person still wanted a camp area .. would say placing a platform at 500m stop them been able to select everything and keep the sim working
[11:19]	Kitto Flora:	Is it known that the bots are using a modified client?
[11:19]	Eata Kitty:	What happened to the removal of traffic
[11:19]	Eata Kitty:	Kitto: Bots are a modified client
[11:19]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew: Is it known that the bots are using a modified client?
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	Yes kitto. By "client" I'm referring to all clients in general.
[11:20]	Morgaine Dinova:	Most bots use something like libomv, and in future they'll be using PyOGP too. And no doubt many others.
[11:20]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew: Is that client performing some action that can be interpreted as being in violation of the ToS?
[11:20]	Yann Dufaux:	@ Andrew; i never trust other clients if is not official from LL ..
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	Right now the simulator doesn't enforce a selection distance limit. Putting a sanity check there could reduce the selection-bot problem, but not solve it
[11:21]	Arawn Spitteler:	So, the Bots are selecting everything in sight, rather than simply Advanced -> Character -> Away?
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	The simulator also does not limit selection time.
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	However, it does clean up all selections when the avatar leaves. Hence kicking the bots will work.
[11:22]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: what is actually special about being in "selected" state?
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	If dumb bots are autodetected as bad selectors and are kicked then the bot makers will improve their behavior so the aren't detectable
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	which would be a good thing -- nicer bots
[11:22]	Kitto Flora:	Yes
[11:22]	Bau Ur:	I wonder what innocent stuf might get whacked by the same fix.
[11:22]	Kitto Flora:	I dont care about camping and bots as such - thats another issue
[11:22]	Rex Cronon:	how dou kick out somebody off a public sim"?
[11:22]	Arawn Spitteler:	Selection is still killing physics? What happened to the race car selection detection?
[11:22]	Kitto Flora:	The problem here is DAMAGE TO THE REGION
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	I started working on this problem a few months ago, but my solution depended on another probject that was not yet done
[11:22]	Kitto Flora:	and the objects in it
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	so I put it on hold
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	I think that project is done now. I'd just have to fit it into my schedule, and my schedule is pretty full (sigh)
[11:23]	Mystical Demina:	i believe most bot makers want to be good citizens so posting this problem will reduce it some. I suspect most bot developers don't know this is causing a problem
[11:23]	Morgaine Dinova:	But what is actually special about being in "selected" state? How does that lead to problems?
[11:23]	Kitto Flora:	Folks: When one of these Bots arrive - before very long all your moving items are FROZEN
[11:24]	Kitto Flora:	No train rides, no cars, no fun-fair rides - all dead.
[11:24]	Uni Ninetails:	yikes
[11:24]	Morgaine Dinova:	Why are they frozen?
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	Morgain, if an object were rolling away from you and you select it... it stops rolling.
[11:24]	Ade Franklin:	its true .. they freeze anything
[11:24]	Arawn Spitteler:	It's a grief Mode for racers, already
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	We also need to add some selection permissions/limits -- we've talked about them before in these meetings.
[11:24]	Kitto Flora:	Forzen because they are seleted - as in for edit.
[11:24]	Morgaine Dinova:	!!!!! I assumed it stopped moving only from your PoV in your viewer. Why is it stopped moving in-world?
[11:25]	Ade Franklin:	cause it has been selected
[11:25]	Morgaine Dinova:	Ade: but why
[11:25]	Poeffie Messmer:	Edit mode i still a viewable mode for others
[11:25]	Arawn Spitteler:	Is there a Jira to debate why?
[11:25]	Apollo Reinard:	whay would they select ALL items?
[11:25]	Uni Ninetails:	id always wondered but the fact the dont rubberband after you deselect lead me to beleive anyone can stop a phy object by editing it
[11:25]	Apollo Reinard:	why*
[11:25]	Kitto Flora:	This action stops for all = it stops motion in the sim
[11:25]	Rex Cronon:	that is how it has always been. it was usually ued to stop others from driving their cars over u:)
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	The bots select items to get more info about them.
[11:25]	Poeffie Messmer:	If multiple people work on an object, it would be easier f the ther person would see the xact same things
[11:25]	Morgaine Dinova:	Jiras aren't for debating. That's why I'm asking for the design reason why it's stopped on selection.
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	On selection a more verbose update message about the object is sent to the client.
[11:26]	Nite Zelmanov:	I've known this for years but also assumed it was only in my eyes
[11:26]	Nite Zelmanov:	not for real
[11:26]	Ade Franklin:	i was outdriving my car yesterday down route 1 and stopped dead on a sim .. it was full of bots
[11:26]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: can only one person select an object at a time?
[11:27]	Kitto Flora:	Same on Route 8 - and I noticed that weeks ago - did not know why at the time.
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	No Morgaine, multiple selection is possible
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	We can all select this table before us, for example.
[11:27]	Morgaine Dinova:	OK, so selection is not a lock.
[11:27]	Morgaine Dinova:	If selection is not a lock, what is causing this problem then?
[11:27]	Kitto Flora:	Selection of an object LOCKS it in place
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	Yes Kitto but it does not lock it from selction from others.
[11:28]	Rex Cronon:	it certainly locks an physical objec
[11:28]	Eata Kitty:	Maybe physics control should only be owners or parcel perms
[11:28]	Arawn Spitteler:	Not really locking, but renders it static. It can still jump about wih llSetPos()
[11:28]	Uni Ninetails:	thank god case if it locked selection for other wouldnt that be another nightmare?
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	Selection is not relenquished automagically by the simulator, unless the selector leaves.
[11:28]	Morgaine Dinova:	Folks, we're talking about "lock" in computing terms, not in movement terms.
[11:28]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew: True, but in this case, of no consequence
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	The selector must send the "deselect object" message.
[11:28]	Morgaine Dinova:	If selection is not a lock, what is causing this problem then?
[11:28]	Yann Dufaux:	@ Andwer: i have noticed an thing if i cross a sim, the prims are invisble or not loaded and it can take more of 5 mins for load..
[11:29]	Kitto Flora:	Morgaine: We are discussing motion here, not general computing.
[11:29]	Rex Cronon:	if it uses setpost is no longer hysical
[11:29]	Yann Dufaux:	Andrew @ sorry for your name
[11:29]	Morgaine Dinova:	Kitto: I'm trying to analyze it, you don't need to help if you don't want.
[11:29]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, Morgaine was using the term "lock" in its computing sense. I understood.
[11:29]	Twisted Laws:	selections sets object velocity to 0 if physical
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	Yann, I'd have to see that particular border crossing problem to have much of an opinions about it.
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	There are problems with border crossing yes, but not all objects are equal.
[11:30]	Saijanai Kuhn rezes Qarl's ant
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	Anyway, I've got some ideas about the bot selection problem. I don't think I'll be implementing them all at once.
[11:31]	Morgaine Dinova:	So what is causing the problem then Andrew, if it's not the selection since that is not locked?
[11:31]	Saijanai Kuhn:	speaking of all objects not being equal for sim crossing...
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, we've already got an internal jira for it I think. I'll try to update it later today.
[11:31]	Rex Cronon:	don't forget to makeit physical sai. also unlik it:)
[11:31]	Kitto Flora:	Anderw: OK... I've not posted this as it appers to be a great griefer tool.
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	Uh.. Morgaine I thought we were talking the same language, but now I'm confused.
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	Selection by ResidentA does not prevent REsidentB from selecting it, however it is "selected" if any one selects it.
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	Upon selection an object will be stuck in place.
[11:32]	Kitto Flora:	Anyone know who makes the Bot's modified client?
[11:32]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: we are talking the same language, but we haven't narrowed down the cause of the problem yet. All we've done is exhonerate locking, since multiple parties can do that.
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	If we were to change that for all selection then we'd break a bunch of stuff.
[11:33]	Kitto Flora:	MAybe the quicker fix would be to get the maker to fix his bad client
[11:33]	Rex Cronon:	there are many tots kitto:((
[11:33]	Rex Cronon:	bots*
[11:33]	Ade Franklin:	lol u telling me rex i banned 70 in total in one day
[11:34]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: ahhhh ... are w saying that there are NO detrimental effects, other than the fact that movement has stopped? The sim continues quite happily?
[11:34]	Kitto Flora:	Ade: What did it run - One bot expelled every 2 mins for 18 hours straight?
[11:34]	Ade Franklin:	yes
[11:34]	Ade Franklin:	thats correct kitto
[11:34]	Rex Cronon:	i am talking about the types of programs that r used to control the bots
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	Is Busenur Aboma here? He said he was going to attend and had some questions.
[11:34]	Ade Franklin:	and that 2 rex i found them all over place
[11:34]	Arawn Spitteler:	A Physical Camp Chari, that turns off when stopped, might do
[11:35]	Arawn Spitteler:	Once th client maker repents, there's still the problem of findig an updated client, that the consumer needs motivation for.
[11:35]	Kitto Flora:	These bot are otherwise extreamly dumb. Remove all the camping stuff and they still return over and over - damaging the region
[11:35]	Arawn Spitteler:	Put up a physical object and, whe stoppd, end camping.
[11:35]	NonSmokerGirl Tulip:	What if an IM was opened to all avatars on a sim, and they were required to respond, or be ejected, banned?
[11:36]	Morgaine Dinova:	Apparently they don't damage the region, but only stop movement of selected objects. The sim is unaffected?
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	I wonder if LL should try to provide a "dumb bot detector" service so that land owners could kick dumb bots automatically.
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	That would kick the bot race into high gear.
[11:36]	Arawn Spitteler:	That wouldinspir the ace to the irst bt to pss alltouring tests.
[11:36]	Rex Cronon:	there is a way to find a a bot using lsl:)
[11:36]	Kitto Flora:	Yes andrew: If the practice of not de-selecting is allowed to continue unpenalised
[11:37]	Eata Kitty:	No
[11:37]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: if you did that, Enus would would be at your desk in 2 seconds flat, because PyOGP runs dumb bots :-)
[11:37]	Mystical Demina:	i do't think you will ever have perfect bot detector, bot can still have humans waiting for alerts they are being talked to and do something in response, ever over a phone chat or something.
[11:37]	Eata Kitty:	Humans are very good at pattern recognition etc so the only particular kind of question that we do much better than computers are things like "Find all the kittens in this picture"
[11:38]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah Morgaine, but in about two days the PyOGP bot would be smarter.
[11:38]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hehe
[11:38]	Kitto Flora:	Folks : Its not the fact that it is a bot, and that it camps. The problem is the damage it does to physical/moving objects in the Sim.
[11:38]	Rex Cronon:	sadly on the mainland there is noway to kcik an bot from a public sim:(
[11:38]	Twisted Laws:	and realize it doesn't have to be a "bot" that selects all in a sim
[11:38]	Mystical Demina:	understand but if that situation exsit although closing the bost down may help, seem the real solution is fixuting the root problem
[11:38]	Kaiser Bogomil:	what about a llSetStatus( OWNER_SELECT, TRUE )
[11:38]	Harleen Gretzky:	JIRA for stopping objects: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-34
[11:39]	Kitto Flora:	Hi Simon
[11:39]	Simon Linden:	hello
[11:39]	Kaiser Bogomil:	that could work for sims having the prob
[11:39]	Uni Ninetails:	hihi
[11:39]	Moon Metty:	hi Simon
[11:39]	Kaiser Bogomil:	be nice to do that for an entire sim
[11:39]	Ade Franklin:	hi simon
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	if we had llSetStatus( OWNER_SELECT, TRUE ) why wouldn't ALL greif objects use it?
[11:40]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: I still don't get why moving objects are stopped from moving on selection. There doesn't seem to be a good reason for it, although you could stop movement in the viewer alone of course.
[11:40]	Kaiser Bogomil:	so?
[11:40]	Bau Ur:	Right.
[11:40]	Yann Dufaux:	hello, Simon, how are you?:)
[11:40]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hiya Simon :-)
[11:40]	Rex Cronon:	hello simon
[11:40]	Eata Kitty:	I think the idea was it was very hard to catch a moving object at times
[11:40]	Kaiser Bogomil:	yep
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	Morgain, I suspect you have relied on that behavior many times without thinking about it.
[11:40]	Arawn Spitteler:	To stop a car could be to counter a griefer, but the selection detection is also needed for racers, and now this.
[11:41]	Eata Kitty:	Wasnt there already a status that blocked selection stopping your physics
[11:41]	Kaiser Bogomil:	to target griefe objects use the UUID
[11:41]	Zi Ree:	llSetStatus(LAND_OWNER_SELECT,TRUE);
[11:41]	Eata Kitty:	STATUS_BLOCK_GRAB
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	Eata, that is for the "grab" feature, not for selection
[11:41]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: in Imprudence, we've discussed adding the missing concept of "target" into the viewer, so that every pick becomes a target which you can lock in if you want.
[11:41]	Kaiser Bogomil:	yes - but you might still want to edit that object
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	"grab" is when you left-click and hold an object
[11:42]	Eata Kitty:	Oh
[11:42]	Rex Cronon:	yes. we need new function: llGetSelectorList(key uuid) returns first 16 users that slect an objec
[11:42]	Kaiser Bogomil:	yes
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	blocking grab will still allow single-clicks on the object... or does it not?
[11:42]	Rex Cronon:	and llUnselect(), to allow an object to deselect itself
[11:42]	Kaiser Bogomil:	good question
[11:43]	Arawn Spitteler:	selectionstart and selection_end would also be useful.
[11:43]	Kaiser Bogomil:	yes & that would be a good complement to the new setStatus
[11:43]	Morgaine Dinova:	If the object is not locked on selection (and it's not), then there's no point having a stateful selection in the first place.
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	we've talked about selection limits in the past
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	maybe objects with sitting avatars should not be pinned in place upon selection... unless done by a sittee or owner or land owner
[11:44]	Twisted Laws:	yes :)
[11:44]	Kaiser Bogomil:	yes
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	but how would you limit the pin-on-selection of camp bots?
[11:45]	Rex Cronon:	how about a new event : selected(key userUUID)
[11:45]	Andrew Linden:	we can limit the number of things selected
[11:45]	Andrew Linden:	and we can retire old selectyions
[11:45]	Kaiser Bogomil:	if they don't own the object they can't select
[11:45]	Andrew Linden:	and we can prevent further selections when they violate some behavior threshold
[11:45]	Rex Cronon:	this way a script knows when the ob ject was selected
[11:45]	Kaiser Bogomil:	yes!
[11:46]	Kaiser Bogomil:	I'd love a "selected" event
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	Kaiser, that seems like a bad idea. I think preventing selection by non-owners would break a lot of stuff
[11:46]	Arawn Spitteler:	There're uses for selection, bots are just doing it to a point of harrassment. Bots could be ARed as appropo, if we had selection detection
[11:46]	Kaiser Bogomil:	well... no doubt but if its a scripted thing you could turn off - then you can unbreak em
[11:46]	xstorm Radek:	yes you can AR a Bot
[11:47]	Arawn Spitteler imagines a script to AR when Bots are selecting to excess
[11:47]	Kaiser Bogomil:	there ya go!
[11:47]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: The way I'd implement selection is very different. Picking would give the viewer a target, without setting any selection state in the sim. Performing an operation on the object would then not perform a "selection" at all, unless there were various operations to be performed in sequence atomically -- only then would a "select" be performed in the sim, for the duration of the composite operations. Moving objects would then never stop.
[11:47]	Rex Cronon:	if llunselect is a bad idea, than at least the event selected(key userUUID) would be good, it wouldn't brake any existing code
[11:48]	Rex Cronon:	:)
[11:48]	Arawn Spitteler:	Creating new IPA would besomethng for the Bot users to do, since they've long since dropped out of the college where they're abuses of the computer are still ongoing.
[11:48]	Andrew Linden:	Morgaine, I assure you all sorts of stuff would break if we did that for all selections.
[11:48]	Andrew Linden:	by "stuff" breaking I mean UI behavior and content
[11:48]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well things are breaking now because all interactions are stateful. :-)
[11:48]	Geo Meek:	I do wish you all well have to give a new viwer a try :-))))))))
[11:49]	Kaiser Bogomil:	ahhhh ok - not scripted objects
[11:49]	Morgaine Dinova:	Could be worse, the objects could be locked on selection, hehe :P
[11:49]	xstorm Radek:	hope you are not recording this Geo
[11:49]	Kaiser Bogomil:	yep - I can see that now too
[11:49]	Bau Ur:	I note that it is 11:49. Do we want to continue with this topic?
[11:49]	Patty1 Rosca:	Geo always does
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	I have to leave at 12:00 for another meeting. If anyone has been saving up questions for the last minute they should probably ask them soon.
[11:50]	Bau Ur:	i would like to ask about the avatar hiding hack and whether it has bad implications of any kind.
[11:50]	Kaiser Bogomil:	sounds to me like the solution won't come without a a cost
[11:50]	xstorm Radek:	i hope not i do not give permision to be film
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	Bau, perhaps you could elaborate on this hack for the rest of us.
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	How does it work?
[11:51]	Uni Ninetails:	Film? dont cam mee youll break your screen
[11:51]	Arawn Spitteler wonders, as a good sheep hand, whether this can be related to the Physics Problems of SVC-22
[11:51]	Twisted Laws:	one hack blocks sending of agent updates from client to sim
[11:51]	Morgaine Dinova:	If this is public land, then you're giving permission to be filmed by being here in public.
[11:51]	Bau Ur:	I do not thoroughly understand, which is why i sent you the notecard earlier, but in summary it seems that if you modify a megaprim and wear it, the client completely abidicates and does not render your humanoid body.
[11:51]	Bau Ur:	It iwll still render attahments.
[11:52]	Bau Ur:	The megaprim is pahntom and invisible and as big as a continent or bigger.
[11:52]	Kitto Flora:	An Invisiprim?
[11:52]	Andrew Linden:	Bau, that sounds like a SL viewer bug -- the viewer is deciding to not render the avatar when it should.
[11:52]	Bau Ur:	Not an invisiprim.
[11:52]	Arawn Spitteler:	I know Barney Boomslang uses something of the sort
[11:52]	xstorm Radek:	yes i have seen this
[11:52]	Andrew Linden:	Bau, that hack cannot be relied upon. Eventually the viewer will be fixed and it will break.
[11:52]	Bau Ur:	Yes, and the ARC registers as some ungodly nuber but in fact it does not seem to lag the sim or other peopel.
[11:52]	xstorm Radek:	they used that on waterhead
[11:52]	Andrew Linden:	I wouldn't try to build a solid business on selling such a hack attachment.
[11:53]	Bau Ur:	When it breaks, will it do any harm to anyone besides the user?
[11:53]	Arawn Spitteler:	Only to those who now see the user
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	No, it would be considered a "bug fix".
[11:53]	xstorm Radek:	i seen that crash a sim
[11:53]	Rex Cronon:	i think nyx is working on somethig that will break the megaprim hack. the one that makes the one that wears it invisible
[11:53]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hehehe, headlines .... "Exploding worn megaprim decapitates wearer."
[11:53]	Uni Ninetails:	lol
[11:54]	Arawn Spitteler:	Decapitation, is that a feasible anim?
[11:54]	Bau Ur:	And if this is utterly a viewer matter rather than a server matter I will withdraw it from the table here.
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	Yup, it is a viewer bug.
[11:54]	Rex Cronon:	it is going tobe fiexed soon
[11:54]	Bau Ur:	Okay, no physics implications for those continent sized prims, cuz they don't even get acknowledged by the server, right?
[11:54]	Arawn Spitteler:	I wouldn't even call it a bug, but a way to ignore.
[11:55]	Kitto Flora:	Arawn: YEs rotate the neck joint 180 on the x axis and shrink it
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	Attached objects do not live in the physics engine.
[11:55]	Bau Ur:	And when dropped?
[11:55]	Bau Ur:	Cuz, they will get dropped.
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	So no, wearing megaprims does not affect the world as far as physics goes.
[11:55]	Bau Ur:	ANd some will get dropped on parcels with autoreturn zero.
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	When dropped they are added to the physics engine and start colliding.
[11:55]	Uni Ninetails:	Andrew id asked you a few weeks ago about environment editor on the sim side for us sim owners/estate owners. You had said you would ask around about it. Any info?
[11:56]	Andrew Linden:	No Uni I have not asked around. Thanks for reminding me.
[11:56]	Rex Cronon:	ask nyx linded
[11:56]	Uni Ninetails:	:) no worries
[11:56]	Andrew Linden writes a post-it note and sticks it on his monitor
[11:56]	Uni Ninetails:	hurray!
[11:56]	Morgaine Dinova:	lol
[11:57]	Arawn Spitteler still has trouble, figuring how to turna compiler on: What technical level would be needed, to totally reqwrite the PrimitiveParams code?
[11:57]	Uni Ninetails:	Holidays come first :D
[11:57]	Kaiser Bogomil:	LOL
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	Arawn, your question is ambiguous. Are you talking about rewriting primitive fundamental shapes? Rewriting LLVolumeParams C++ class? Or changing the behavior of llSetPrimitiveParams()?
[11:58]	Bau Ur:	I have a question for a freind. He has a physical prim barge that people can walk upon as it moves. It doesn't work very well. What behaviors of physical prims does he need to understand in order ot make it work, and what wiki page or whatever is that information found on?
[11:58]	Arawn Spitteler:	Holidays come first, all else can wait. I mean on the order of, rewriting th C++ Classes, so the code will be a model of maintainability
[11:59]	Yann Dufaux:	sorry andrew
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	Bau, I don't think the barge can be worked around easily. There is a known problem with avatars standing on moving platforms.
[11:59]	Kaiser Bogomil:	and clock pendulums
[11:59]	Arawn Spitteler wonders if the barge can push passengers: that's quite a challenge
[11:59]	Bau Ur:	Canyou point me to an explanation of the known problem, and the math upon which it depends?
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	It is better in Havok4 (I believe) but there is still an update mismatch between when the object is updated and the avatar is, so you get a jitter effect
[11:59]	Uni Ninetails:	put a slight tilt on the floor?
[11:59]	Morgaine Dinova:	Interesting question of Bau's. Do our feet have friction on the ground?
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	and crossing region boundaries doesn't work.
[12:00]	Bau Ur:	If the math for the avatar updates versus the barge is posted somewher, he can script around it maybe. He's clever.
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	The friction between the avatar the other objects is very complicated subject.
[12:00]	Arawn Spitteler:	We just haven't the friction straightened out yet, Bau
[12:00]	Bau Ur:	What if we wear rubber shows...boat shoes....
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	The avatar is not really a walking thing... it is a prim with a specific shape that slides along the ground/floor.
[12:01]	Kitto Flora:	Arawn: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page Get the source code and read it. You wil lsee the level of complexity.
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	At least, when its collisions are concerned.
[12:01]	Arawn Spitteler:	How tall would the posts have to be, to push the avatars?
[12:01]	Morgaine Dinova:	Kitto: does walking on a moving platform work in Opensim?
[12:01]	Kaiser Bogomil:	ya know we talked awhile back about the abstractions added so that you could drop in Agias physics cards...
[12:01]	Twisted Laws:	if its a push zone, you can script push the colliding avatars in the right direction
[12:01]	Kaiser Bogomil:	what happened to that?
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	Bau, it isn't going to work until we do a lot of work around the "avatar standing on moving platform" problem.
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	in this case we'll be needing some special-case code that overrides the default physics when the avatar stands on such things
[12:02]	Kitto Flora:	Morgaine: I dont know. OpenSim is such a moving target.
[12:03]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, I've got to go. Thanks form coming everyone.
[12:03]	Uni Ninetails:	Thanks Andrew!
[12:03]	Bau Ur:	That special case code would be good for various vehicles and beautiful creative things.
[12:03]	xstorm Radek:	i think it is best no one invests in opensim
[12:03]	Rex Cronon:	bye andrew
[12:03]	Bau Ur:	Thank you ANdrew.
[12:03]	Arawn Spitteler:	It woud stil be complicated, to have sitting avatars in the walking and standing animations, changing positions around the brge, but would use less prims
[12:03]	Moon Metty:	see you soon Andrew :)
[12:03]	Ade Franklin:	thanks andrew
[12:03]	Kaiser Bogomil:	me2 - lag i s now unbearable
[12:03]	xstorm Radek:	bye Andrew