User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2007 10 25

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[8:00]	Andrew Linden:	Hey everbody.
[8:01]	Rex Cronon:	hi andrew, hi everybody
[8:01]	Andrew Linden:	At the last office hours were had planned on holding these in the Havok4 preview.
[8:01]	Andrew Linden:	However, QA asked to have limited access to the preview for one day.
[8:02]	Sidewinder Linden:	hi guys
[8:02]	RacerX Gullwing:	hello
[8:02]	Kitto Flora:	Hi Sidewinder
[8:02]	Rex Cronon:	hi sidewinder
[8:03]	Andrew Linden:	Previously we've tried to rush preview updates out, and so we've hurried the testers.
[8:03]	Andrew Linden:	They've had only a few hours to test before the end of the day.
[8:04]	Rex Cronon:	does that mean that once QA is done havok 4 comes to the main grid?
[8:04]	Andrew Linden:	No.
[8:04]	Sidewinder Linden:	No, this is one test cycle... There is plenty more to do before we will be ready for that...
[8:05]	Sidewinder Linden:	but with each preview release, qa goes through the build to check a variety of things for proper behavior
[8:05]	Andrew Linden:	I just means they want to do a more throrough test pass.
[8:05]	Wolfhaven Teleportation HUD v2.0 Ready
[8:05]	Kitto Flora:	Ggrrr
[8:06]	Andrew Linden:	As I mentioned on Tuesday...
[8:06]	Andrew Linden:	there is a bug where the center of mass of linked objects is wrong.
[8:06]	Andrew Linden:	This is almost certainly the root cause of some of the vehicle problems.
[8:07]	RacerX Gullwing:	when we finally get this havok thing going is there going to be a lot of new physical behavors or is it just going to smooth out the current grid?
[8:07]	Sidewinder Linden:	RacerX - the initial target is stability and reliability, without significant changes to behavior...
[8:07]	Andrew Linden:	No new features.
[8:07]	Andrew Linden:	Only bug fixes.
[8:07]	Sidewinder Linden:	although there will be some small variations... mostly dynamics tweaks.
[8:07]	Kitto Flora:	Only big changes I have seen is that things on the ground roll further
[8:08]	Sidewinder Linden:	and a higher 'world ceiling' (1024m)
[8:08]	RacerX Gullwing:	well bug fixes are good always need more of those
[8:08]	Kitto Flora:	when they are physical
[8:08]	Sidewinder Linden:	and hopefully a sim that continues to be "very, very hard to crash"
[8:08]	Kitto Flora:	Anything else thats diff has been due to bugs
[8:08]	Andrew Linden:	One unmentioned bug fix in Havok4 is that you don't get stood up when linking something to your seat.
[8:08]	Sidewinder Linden:	Our goal is to avoid changes that break existing content...
[8:09]	Andrew Linden:	However, when unlinking the object you're sitting on you still stand up.
[8:09]	Andrew Linden:	Unfortunately, that is a bit harder to fix.
[8:09]	RacerX Gullwing:	what about phisical stuff with flex i noticed you could make an object physical and add a flexibal part is that just a bug?
[8:09]	Tillie Ariantho:	Why for heaven's sake does NO Linden have some decent poseballs? .P
[8:09]	Khamon Fate:	Sidewinder it's okay to break existing content if you give us ample time to recode our stuff.
[8:09]	JayR Cela:	thanks rex
[8:10]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... I think physical flex is a bug.
[8:10]	Kitto Flora:	Lindens didnt build these seats ;)
[8:10]	Rex Cronon:	np
[8:10]	Sidewinder Linden:	agreed khamon, but we're trying for no breakage first, and we will not be doing a "fast push" to the public Second Life system
[8:10]	Andrew Linden:	We intentionally disabled that in Havok1 for design reasons... not for phys engine stability.
[8:11]	Sidewinder Linden:	that's part of why you're seeing this many test cycles - to be sure that you all have plenty of time to see what works and what doesn't, and if we end up having to make a breaking change, to give time to patch things up
[8:11]	Khamon Fate:	First is good, just please don't make it exclusive. We'd rather have something that works better long term than suffer bugs and limitations just so a few older scripts continue to work without updates.
[8:11]	Sidewinder Linden:	ahh right khamon
[8:12]	Sidewinder Linden:	we have not seen many cases like that yet
[8:12]	Khamon Fate:	Well when I rezzed my trees on the beta grid they all drifted aimlessly and crashed everybody they bumped into.
[8:13]	Andrew Linden:	I don't really have any agenda for these office hours.
[8:13]	Kitto Flora:	Sidewinder, what of the wrong change event at border crossing - did that get in the new deploy?
[8:13]	Khamon Fate:	ha ha ha kidding
[8:13]	Sidewinder Linden:	there are many new folks here at office hours today - for those who have not been here before... how has it been going?
[8:13]	Sidewinder Linden:	(kitto - i have to check the list, brb)
[8:13]	JayR Cela:	pretty good sidewinder / thanks :_)
[8:13]	Andrew Linden:	I was hoping people would offer suggestions for topics, or ask questions.
[8:13]	Andrew Linden:	Hey Seifert, how did testing go on "The Future"?
[8:14]	Hypatia Callisto:	good :) I had no idea you had a more friendly office hour time for Euros, so I am here now :)
[8:14]	Seifert Surface:	well... it aint working yet
[8:14]	JayR Cela:	I still need to visit the beta grid
[8:14]	Seifert Surface:	i sent you an email with my findings
[8:14]	Andrew Linden:	I got the inventory items, but haven't been able to play with them yet.
[8:14]	Seifert Surface:	essentially, it looks like the drop off on llpushobject is happening sooner than it is in haok1
[8:14]	Khamon Fate:	question: *are* sculpted prims going to have relative bounding boxes or is that impossible after all?
[8:15]	Andrew Linden:	Khamon, what do you mean by "relative bounding boxes" ?
[8:15]	Hypatia Callisto:	I think, more corresponding to their actual shape, rather than being a lopsided sphere
[8:15]	Andrew Linden:	Are you asking if sculpties will have better collision approximations?
[8:15]	Khamon Fate:	other than the spherical boxes they have now, something that matches their apparent shape
[8:15]	Andrew Linden:	That is something I really want to work on, but it won't be in havok4.
[8:15]	Khamon Fate:	yes better collision approximations
[8:16]	Khamon Fate:	k
[8:16]	Andrew Linden:	Better sculptie collision approximations are important for another project I want to work on...
[8:16]	Sidewinder Linden:	kitto - there aren't border crossing fixes per-se in this code drop... do you recall a specific jira item on this? i do remember it being talked about...
[8:16]	Andrew Linden:	object-parcel collision queries
[8:16]	Andrew Linden:	which I want to use to fix the "my neighbor's object overlaps my parcel" problem
[8:17]	Tillie Ariantho:	Yes, better sculpie collision would be nice, I think. :)
[8:17]	Andrew Linden:	which is the main reason why we don't want to support megaprims right now
[8:17]	Kitto Flora:	Sidewinder, I'll look it up.. Its the one that likely is breaking all cars and planes at border crossing.
[8:17]	Khamon Fate:	yeah right now a physical sphere sitting on the ground generates thousands of collisions a second
[8:17]	Hypatia Callisto notes that will so bork how Caledon's infrastructure works :(
[8:17]	Khamon Fate:	It's bizzaro
[8:18]	Sidewinder Linden:	things like sculptie physical representation enhancements are enhancements, and we are really focused on delivering a much more robust sim, with havok4 running as the engine, without breakiing any more content than possible...
[8:18]	Khamon Fate:	I vote for axing the megaprims. Tell us it was accidental but irreversable. We won't know the difference.
[8:18]	Tillie Ariantho:	I think the overlapping prim problem is mostly newbie items, not huge prims.
[8:18]	Seifert Surface:	khamon: yes we will, these office hours get posted ;p
[8:18]	Hypatia Callisto:	the overlapping prims we use for sidewalks in Caledon
[8:18]	Andrew Linden:	Khamon, what do you mean by spheres causing thousand of collisions?
[8:18]	Sidewinder Linden:	that doesn't mean that enhancements are out of bounds - but just not going to be in the first havok4 release due to the amount of work to get the rest done.
[8:18]	Hypatia Callisto:	and other large infrastructure
[8:18]	Seph Swain:	Khamon: *lol* i second that :)
[8:18]	Tillie Ariantho:	I once had like 2 dozen vehicles trying to drive through my parcel ... all blocked on the border, just hanging there.
[8:18]	Andrew Linden:	Are you saying that sphere collision callbacks in LSL are different in Havok4?
[8:19]	Hypatia Callisto:	Could there be some way to "lock" something so that it can't be moved, say if its owned by the estate owner?
[8:19]	Khamon Fate:	If one of my orange trees drops an orange (physical sphere), timed to go non-physical in three seconds, it generates thousands of collisions during that time, even after it stops and is just sitting.
[8:20]	Andrew Linden:	Khamon, in Havok4?
[8:20]	JayR Cela:	Khamon / wow / thats a trip
[8:20]	Kitto Flora:	SVC-861 is the wrong changed event at border
[8:20]	Sidewinder Linden:	thanks kitto
[8:20]	Khamon Fate:	Sokay Seifert, I don't mind my opinion being public. Never say anything in SL you don't want repeated publicly because it probably will be.
[8:21]	Hypatia Callisto:	I understand the need to have the ability to move things that overlap parcels, but there are instances when you really want them to overlap
[8:21]	Andrew Linden:	We "filter" the collision callback so they don't happen too fast, so thousands of collision callbacks sounds like a bug.
[8:21]	Khamon Fate:	It's better in Havok4 but still in the hundreds, just not thousands
[8:21]	Hypatia Callisto:	and not be moved
[8:22]	Andrew Linden:	Ah hypatia, you're talking about my idea of making prims movable by the parcel owner whos land they overlap?
[8:22]	Hypatia Callisto:	yes
[8:22]	Khamon Fate:	I'll perform some more accurate tests in Boardman, or Slate if y'all will add it to the the beta grid, and report back to you.
[8:22]	Sidewinder Linden:	thanks khamon... please report it in a jira item so we have it logged, ok?
[8:22]	Andrew Linden:	That is the first part of my proposed solution to the overlap problem... and I hadn't thought of what the exceptions to that rule should be.
[8:23]	Khamon Fate:	k
[8:23]	Hypatia Callisto:	I really dont want to see residents moving the Caledon sidewalks, etc :)
[8:23]	Hypatia Callisto:	or the train tracks :)
[8:23]	Saijanai Dagger:	hey all
[8:23]	Sidewinder Linden:	hi jaijanai
[8:23]	Hypatia Callisto:	Hi Saijanai
[8:23]	Sidewinder Linden:	saijanai (sry)
[8:23]	Rex Cronon:	hi saijanai
[8:23]	JayR Cela:	hey there Sai :_)
[8:23]	Andrew Linden:	Hypatia, you're suggesting that some estate permissions should override some parcel permissions, which I'm saying should override some object owner permissions.
[8:24]	Rex Cronon:	.
[8:24]	Hypatia Callisto:	yes :)
[8:24]	Kitto Flora:	Whats this overlapping prim problem? Any Jira # for it?
[8:24]	Hypatia Callisto:	if that would be possible that would be great :))
[8:24]	Andrew Linden:	It is possible to do...
[8:24]	Tillie Ariantho:	Kitto: Just prims reaching into your parcel, blocking you in some way.
[8:24]	Tillie Ariantho:	from a neighbour parcel.
[8:24]	Andrew Linden:	it just makes the system a little more complicated... makes the project a bit harder.
[8:24]	Kitto Flora:	Encroachment?
[8:24]	Sidewinder Linden:	"Your tree is on my property" kind of stuff...
[8:25]	Sidewinder Linden:	the governance team gets a lot of a/r's like that, believe it or not.
[8:25]	Kitto Flora:	Mmm - what Andrew hopes to make something for us :)
[8:25]	Tillie Ariantho:	Yes, it is really annoying.
[8:25]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, I think "enchroachment" isthe accepted term for the problem.
[8:25]	Seifert Surface:	anything with permissions seems hard to figure out all the permutations and what should be allowed
[8:26]	Seifert Surface:	but i agree it seems that estate settings should override parcel settings
[8:26]	Kitto Flora:	5 meter penalty and loss of login :)
[8:26]	Hypatia Callisto:	yeah... that's really important for a lot of private sims and their infrastructure
[8:27]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... estate/parcel-owner interactions will get as complicated as group settings.
[8:27]	Andrew Linden:	I suppose they are similar to group dynamics anyway.
[8:27]	JayR Cela:	yeah that sounds like it could be a nightmare
[8:27]	Hypatia Callisto:	in the long run may be better though...
[8:28]	Hypatia Callisto:	yeah groups are something that really enhance the SL experience, IMO
[8:28]	Seifert Surface:	a stopgap measure would be to have the estate be able to turn off the overlapping return ability entirely
[8:28]	Andrew Linden:	When that project starts, I'm sure we'll be getting feedback and we'll have to change things around.
[8:28]	Seifert Surface:	somewhere like caledon is organised enough that i imagine issues of encroachment can be dealt with by social means rather than technological
[8:29]	Hypatia Callisto:	true, but having to fix mistakes, and say if someone loses a parcel meter
[8:29]	Hypatia Callisto:	that's money
[8:29]	Sidewinder Linden:	there have been a lot of discussions of the group system in second life... it has been looked at a lot, and the real solutions are probably not to "tweak the edges of it", so a full new solution is a significant project
[8:29]	Seifert Surface:	loses a parcel meter?
[8:29]	Hypatia Callisto:	the parcel meters are on their land, but linked to small 16 m sq parcels
[8:29]	Hypatia Callisto:	the rental meters
[8:29]	Hypatia Callisto:	in the lamps, in Caledon
[8:29]	Seifert Surface:	right
[8:29]	Andrew Linden:	When the features get that complicated... works one way here and another way there... we'll need ways to provide feedback when operations fail... such as why moving a prim fails.
[8:30]	Sidewinder Linden:	Can anyone think of some categories of content that have not yet been tested on the Havok4 preview?
[8:31]	Rex Cronon:	subs?
[8:31]	Sidewinder Linden:	ooh that's a good one...
[8:31]	Sidewinder Linden:	has anyone tested sailboats?
[8:31]	Kitto Flora:	Yes, interpenetrating physicals at border crossing.
[8:31]	Hypatia Callisto:	I rode my Trudeau without issues, I need to go sailing again in the preview soon
[8:31]	Sidewinder Linden:	ok cool hypatia
[8:31]	Kitto Flora:	I tested the taco sailboat about a week ago
[8:32]	Kitto Flora:	It semed to work ok
[8:32]	Sidewinder Linden:	that's good
[8:32]	Kitto Flora:	Cept for border crossing maybe
[8:32]	Andrew Linden:	I would expect sailboats to work. It is the ground vehicles that still need work.
[8:32]	Sidewinder Linden:	how about the various "game machines"... i wonder if any of them might show linkage oddities in rezzing, or some issues like that...
[8:33]	Sidewinder Linden:	<- is not talking about gambling machines... :)
[8:33]	Hypatia Callisto:	hee
[8:33]	Sidewinder Linden:	or... umm some of the RP sims have fairly sophisticated scripting...
[8:33]	Andrew Linden:	There is an odd bug in the Havok4 preview that we haven't been able to track down...
[8:33]	Sidewinder Linden:	"spells" and such
[8:33]	Andrew Linden:	sometimes objects show up rotated in arbitrary ways
[8:34]	Kitto Flora:	On Rez?
[8:34]	Andrew Linden:	No, these are objects just sitting in the region.
[8:34]	Kitto Flora:	Whole linkset rotated or just a part?
[8:35]	Andrew Linden:	The one object that I was able to track down to figure out approximately when it rotated happened right before a crash.
[8:35]	Andrew Linden:	But that was waaay back when we first opened the preview.
[8:35]	Andrew Linden:	While linkset rotating, I think.
[8:35]	Kitto Flora:	I have not noticed such a thing BUT I cant leave anything around for very long of course
[8:36]	Andrew Linden:	For all I know some jokers are going around rotating stuff they happen to own. But I'm not paranoid... really!
[8:36]	Sidewinder Linden:	hehe
[8:36]	JayR Cela:	lol
[8:37]	PulseBurst Flow:	;-D
[8:37]	Kitto Flora:	One cant really tell, except for items one owns, and long term checking of such is impossible in this setup.
[8:37]	Andrew Linden:	As it turns out, we don't log every position/rotation change of every object.
[8:38]	Sidewinder Linden:	Oh, a quick by-the-way... on public jira, there is a filter "Beta: Havok4 Update" that will show all the currently open publicly submitted bugs. We are trying to keep that up to date, and it usually reflects where we are at in development +/- 24 hours...
[8:38]	Rex Cronon:	i would really like to know if llVolumeDetect can work when attached, or doesn't have anything to do with havok4?
[8:39]	Andrew Linden:	However, someday we may have journaled backups of region content. Then such rotations would actually be logged, in a way.
[8:39]	Rex Cronon:	with attached objects*
[8:39]	Seifert Surface:	the server doesnt know about animations
[8:39]	Seifert Surface:	so nothing in the physcs can work with attached stuff
[8:39]	Seifert Surface:	because it doesnt know where it appears to be
[8:39]	Andrew Linden:	Rex Cronon, llVolumeDetect on attachments would be kinda tough.
[8:39]	Andrew Linden:	At the moment attachments don
[8:40]	Andrew Linden:	Attachments don't have any collisions
[8:40]	Andrew Linden:	and you need a collidable body for llVolumeDetect to work
[8:40]	Rex Cronon:	ok. so it doesn't work. that is bad
[8:41]	Andrew Linden:	Er... what I meant was that attachments don't have a collidable body. It isn't that collisions are disabled for them.
[8:41]	Saijanai Dagger:	is even worse for huds
[8:41]	Andrew Linden:	I think I'd rather do collidable attachments and then try to make sure llVolumeDetect works for attachments.
[8:41]	Kitto Flora:	Atatcments on Avs is a Client Side effect. Collisions are server side.
[8:42]	Saijanai Dagger:	if you made it server side, animations would go funky
[8:42]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, Kitto is correct. However the simulator must know what is attached to do all sorts of LSL interactions with your avatar and other objects.
[8:43]	Andrew Linden:	What do you guys think about collidable attachments?
[8:43]	attach volume detect: Touched.
[8:43]	Kitto Flora:	I bet the fighters would love em
[8:43]	Andrew Linden:	What if wearing lots of attachments actually made your avatar heavier?
[8:43]	Seifert Surface:	i guess if the attachment is assumed to be fixed relative tot he bounding box of the avatar then it could be done without having the server run animations
[8:43]	Rex Cronon:	if u want a nice sword u need that
[8:43]	Andrew Linden:	And changed its collidable size/shape?
[8:43]	Hypatia Callisto:	maybe make it so you can choose if it is or not?
[8:44]	Seph Swain:	collidable attachments is a wonderful griefing tool.
[8:44]	RacerX Gullwing:	well would that mean you could actually have non phantom prims atached
[8:44]	Hypatia Callisto:	for some things I would not want it to collide, some I would
[8:44]	Rex Cronon:	addding weight. that woul be kind of cool
[8:44]	Sidewinder Linden:	That could be interesting, Andrew... "armor" that actually changed the size and behavior of the wearer, for instance...
[8:44]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, I suspect that many people would want their attachments collisionless
[8:44]	RacerX Gullwing:	I always wanted the giant snail races to actually take up the space of the snail av
[8:44]	Sidewinder Linden:	Hi Kurta and Fatbeat
[8:44]	Andrew Linden:	Any avatar with outrageously large wings would find it difficult to navigate.
[8:45]	Fatbeat Zhangsun:	hi
[8:45]	Kurt Stringer:	hello
[8:45]	Hypatia Callisto:	yeah... I was thinking of the faes in particular
[8:45]	Sidewinder Linden:	so we've been drfting mostly into feature discussions, which are great but...
[8:45]	Andrew Linden:	Sidewinder, you have an agenda?
[8:46]	Sidewinder Linden:	i was hoping that we could fish up any more thoughts on issues with the current beta - if anyone has found naything that is not in jira yet for instance...
[8:46]	Rex Cronon:	actually andrew volumedetect works on attachments
[8:46]	Rex Cronon:	but u first have to turn it on before attaching it
[8:47]	Seifert Surface:	ive got that weird thing with delinking two physical prims
[8:47]	Seifert Surface:	i should write it up
[8:47]	Sidewinder Linden:	Seifert?
[8:47]	Sidewinder Linden:	sure - what is going on with that?
[8:47]	Seifert Surface:	given two linked physical prims
[8:47]	Andrew Linden:	Rex, give me a copy of the working volume detect attachment, I'll try to compare the two behaviors, Havok1 and Havok4.
[8:47]	Seifert Surface:	drop them from a height, and as they fall, have them delink (i use a touch event to make them delink)
[8:48]	Seifert Surface:	if you do it in one of the two possible orders (have the delink command originate in the child or root prim)
[8:48]	Seifert Surface:	then things work as they should. do it in the other, and the prim you didnt touch hangs in the air
[8:48]	Seifert Surface:	its still physical, you can bump into it and rotate the prim
[8:48]	Seifert Surface:	but it doesnt fall
[8:48]	Sidewinder Linden:	heh - interesting... another link sequence one...
[8:48]	Sidewinder Linden:	ok that's a good one
[8:48]	Rex Cronon gave you attach volume detect.
[8:49]	Sidewinder Linden:	can you write that up, or should i take this text and drop it into one now?
[8:49]	Seifert Surface:	ill write up
[8:49]	Sidewinder Linden:	kk thanks
[8:49]	Seifert Surface:	np
[8:49]	Seph Swain:	Are there news about the schedule when we can lay our hands on Havoc4 in MainGrid ? We're having a dozen of sim crashes a day..
[8:49]	Andrew Linden:	Ok Seifert, I think I know what is happening there.
[8:50]	Kitto Flora:	I have one minor suspicion of a minor bug that is in MG and appears to be worse in H4
[8:50]	Sidewinder Linden:	Seph... yes I know that there are plenty of crash issus on the main Second Life system. The problem is that right now, Havok4 will break some content if we were to deploy it there, some of it in substantial ways, and we don't want to do that.
[8:50]	Andrew Linden:	I suspect Kelly has actually fixed that already. That is, I suspect it is fixed in the current (closed) Havok4 preview.
[8:50]	Seifert Surface:	the hanging prim is ending up in some weird state
[8:50]	Seifert Surface:	ok, ill wait until preview is up again and try it
[8:50]	Sidewinder Linden:	We are working to get this as clean as we can as fast as we can, but don't want people to have the problem of sims that are stable but break thing in difficult ways - that's a hard compromise...
[8:50]	Sidewinder Linden:	(and there are two more crash modes that the Havok engineers are working on as well)
[8:51]	Seph Swain:	Sidewinder: I'll take a beta version, too and promise to write bug reports :)
[8:51]	Andrew Linden:	I think the problem there was a dangling "grab action" on one of the objects.
[8:51]	Sidewinder Linden:	heh... wel Seph, we will be donig an incrememtal roll-out once we start on the public system, with only a few regions at first... please stay in touch if you'd like to be in the first group :)
[8:52]	Seph Swain:	Be sure I will :)
[8:52]	Saijanai Dagger:	are you planning on doing sandboxes first for H4?
[8:53]	Andrew Linden:	I was thinking we would do a sandbox, however Philip was suggesting we do it differently.
[8:53]	Rex Cronon:	yes. like for example rausch:)
[8:53]	Sidewinder Linden:	Yes, there will be sandbox in the first deploy on the public Second Life system, but that will not be the only places...
[8:54]	Saijanai Dagger:	intersting. Why do non-sandboxes first?
[8:54]	Andrew Linden:	Philip's idea was: find some estate owner whose region crashes a lot, and ask them, "Will you allow us to try running your region under Havok4 to see if it reduces your crash rate?"
[8:54]	Sidewinder Linden:	... however guys, we are not really there yet, so there is time to figure out the right first deploy pattern...
[8:54]	Saijanai Dagger:	ahhhh.
[8:54]	Andrew Linden:	Philip's logic was... opening up a sandbox that doesn't crash much doesn't actually change our overall crash rate.
[8:55]	Andrew Linden:	However, targeting the problematic estates could have measureable improvements.
[8:55]	Rex Cronon:	i am telling u. rausch does crash a lot
[8:55]	Kitto Flora:	If H4 also fixed the memory thrashing, you'd get a lot of volunteers.
[8:55]	Sidewinder Linden:	At the same time, there are weapons and vehicle testing sandboxes that crash a lot too... We'll be looking at this to figure out a plan - and all ideas are welcomed...
[8:56]	Khamon Fate:	Slate runs into the ground when newbies play the prim attack game
[8:56]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, good point. Some weapons testing sandboxen could benefit from early Havok4 rollout.
[8:57]	Khamon Fate:	It has loads of little twisted prims moving around the board. So we'll volunteer when you're looking for Mainland sims to test.
[8:57]	Andrew Linden:	However... if we made those Havok4 without opening enough real Havok4 sandboxen then I suspect people would go take over the weapons testing as Havok4 playgrounds.
[8:57]	Kitto Flora:	There was talk afew meetings back about placing limits on attached scripts, and on scipts by parcel or region... any moves on that front?
[8:57]	Andrew Linden:	Perhaps we should open Havok4 sandboxen early just to provide enough play space.
[8:57]	Hypatia Callisto:	that's a great idea
[8:57]	Khamon Fate:	Yeah that's a good reason
[8:58]	Rex Cronon:	yes. it think lots of people might be interested to test havok4 on the main grid
[8:58]	Saijanai Dagger:	anyone know what is up with mono?
[8:58]	Andrew Linden:	Limits on numbers of scripts... I don't know of any progress on that idea.
[8:58]	Sidewinder Linden:	agreed rex... at the same time we don't want to go too early and have folks run into severely broken content... that belongs on beta if we can get it to that point...
[8:59]	Andrew Linden:	If it gets done it will be in conjunction with, or after, MONO.
[8:59]	Sidewinder Linden:	the point that we don't know of any content breakage issues
[8:59]	JayR Cela:	sidewinder I agree / more testing is needed
[8:59]	Rex Cronon:	i just hope it will happen sometimes this year:)
[8:59]	Andrew Linden:	I know that Babbage Linden has some thoughts and opinions about how to limit or balance script resources.
[8:59]	JayR Cela:	if too many things start breaking unexpectdly / you will start looseing people
[9:00]	Seifert Surface:	is it realistic to expect that havok 4 can get to the point of no known content breakage?
[9:00]	Sidewinder Linden:	@JayR - yup - that is why I'm being really careful about commitments regarding main Second Life system roll-out
[9:00]	Andrew Linden:	Seifert, I don't think Havok4 will ever be 100% compatible with Havok1 content.
[9:01]	Sidewinder Linden:	Well, I suppose that depends on the definition of "no known"... Can we test *everything* that has been built? No way...
[9:01]	Sidewinder Linden:	But we can get it to the point where no tester has reported breakage that we haven't fixed (or decided needs to be broken per earlier discussion)
[9:01]	Saijanai Dagger:	not to mention the itneractions issue
[9:01]	Tillie Ariantho:	And it depends on how you define "broken" ... some weapons just working a bit different with havok4 would not be "broken" for ME. .)
[9:02]	Andrew Linden:	There is some content that takes advantage of "bugs" in Havok1 which are fixed in Haovk4.
[9:02]	Andrew Linden:	The blitze sphere is an example.
[9:02]	Sidewinder Linden:	Right Tillie - by "broken" I mean an item that once rezzed will no longer function, or doesn't link correctly any moore, such that if you take it back into inventory it is now "broken" in some fundamental way.
[9:02]	Saijanai Dagger:	btw, shameless plug time. Anyone who wishes membership with AW Groupies, the in-world discussion group for the AWG, should IM Saijanai Kuhn or Zha Ewry for an invite
[9:03]	JayR Cela:	ok / I have a push spell that works in no push zones / under havok 1 / I should test it in havoc 4
[9:03]	Andrew Linden:	Some people love using blitz spheres on people, and will consider them "broken" in Havok4.
[9:03]	Andrew Linden:	Also, there are a few sim crashers that don't work anymore.
[9:03]	Sidewinder Linden:	yes jayr... that's one that umm "might not work"...
[9:04]	Khamon Fate:	gotta run, Thanks for hosting Andrew and Sidewinder
[9:04]	Hypatia Callisto cheers :p
[9:04]	Andrew Linden:	I know of one "push in no push" that currently crashes Havok4.
[9:04]	Sidewinder Linden:	thanks khamon
[9:04]	Andrew Linden:	We're working on that crash right now.
[9:04]	Tillie Ariantho:	But it is rather bad to rely on bugs staying, sorry. The builders just did wrong then. Their fault.
[9:04]	Rex Cronon:	there aren't a lot people that complain about blitz no longer working:)
[9:04]	Kitto Flora:	And some who cheer :)
[9:05]	Andrew Linden:	If a "bug" in Havok1is useful, then it becomes a "misfeature"
[9:05]	Seph Swain:	Yeah, I'll volunteer to make a web form where you can report that your sim crasher is not working any longer, together with your in-world name ;)
[9:05]	Andrew Linden:	If it is Very Useful, and people love it, it may pressure LL to make it an official feature.
[9:05]	Andrew Linden:	Megaprims are an example of a misfeature.
[9:05]	Tillie Ariantho:	If it is using a bug I would call it an exploit. .P
[9:05]	JayR Cela:	well it does not really matter / because someone will just rewrite their script code to find a work around eventually anyways
[9:05]	Sidewinder Linden:	ooo ohhh uh oh he said the "m word" ;)
[9:06]	Hypatia Callisto:	mmm :)
[9:06]	Kitto Flora:	Its ok the hour is up
[9:06]	Andrew Linden:	No, I think exploits are somewhat distinct. A subset of "bugs".
[9:06]	Saijanai Dagger:	This is an alt btw, SJ Kuhn is my main
[9:06]	Andrew Linden:	Ah yes, the hour is over. I'll have to get going.
[9:07]	Seph Swain:	Thanks for the info!
[9:07]	JayR Cela:	thats what I am saying someone will eventually find the new bugs and exploit those
[9:07]	Andrew Linden:	thanks for coming everyone.
[9:07]	Rex Cronon:	bye andrew
[9:07]	Hypatia Callisto:	my pleasure
[9:07]	PulseBurst Flow:	thanks...bye
[9:07]	Saijanai Dagger:	laters
[9:07]	Seifert Surface:	best
[9:07]	Kitto Flora:	Byebye Andrew
[9:07]	JayR Cela:	thanks for having us here
[9:07]	JayR Cela:	:_)