User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2007 11 15

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[17:01]	Hevenz Vansant:	hiya andrew
[17:01]	Hevenz Vansant:	windlight rocks andrew
[17:01]	Hevenz Vansant:	awesome stuff
[17:01]	Terra Wind Rider 1.1.1 whispers: VRMAD1 Kalok has requested control of the balloon.
[17:02]	Kooky Jetaime:	andrew - beware griefing
[17:02]	Hevenz Vansant gave you Snapshot : Empyrean, Empyrean (209, 190, 60).
[17:02]	Kooky Jetaime:	its been happening at a few meetings today
[17:02]	Andrew Linden:	What sort of griefing?
[17:02]	Kooky Jetaime:	perm spam
[17:03]	Andrew Linden:	Ack.
[17:03]	Kooky Jetaime:	yep
[17:03]	Kooky Jetaime:	quite nice..
[17:03]	Kooky Jetaime:	its impressive when a grief even forces a linden to restart
[17:03]	Kooky Jetaime:	:/
[17:03]	Sidewinder Linden:	hi hevenz
[17:03]	Andrew Linden:	Maybe I should fix that grief mode.
[17:03]	Hevenz Vansant:	:)
[17:03]	Sidewinder Linden:	what happened?
[17:03]	Kooky Jetaime:	perm spam
[17:03]	Andrew Linden:	We've got a jira for that, however no one has taken it, afaik.
[17:03]	Sidewinder Linden:	hmmm
[17:03]	Kooky Jetaime:	multiple ones I believe andrew
[17:04]	Kooky Jetaime:	ben was talking about it
[17:04]	Kooky Jetaime:	as was rob, q and someone else at the oss
[17:04]	Kooky Jetaime:	current gripe right now is the limbo land that patches are seeming to end up in
[17:04]	JetZep Zabelin:	Spammed blue dialog box to request animation interrupts key/mouse and prevents typing and other things
[17:04]	Rex Cronon:	hello everybody
[17:04]	Hevenz Vansant:	ok dream
[17:04]	Hevenz Vansant:	heya rex
[17:04]	JetZep Zabelin:	Hi
[17:05]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[17:05]	Andrew Linden:	Ok well, here is a summary of the state of Havok4...
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	All of our known crash bugs are fixed. There may be more, but we don't now what they are.
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	I've deployed a preliminary update to the preview for Dan Linden
[17:06]	Kooky Jetaime:	uhm
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	so Bug Island is currently off limits while he tests
[17:06]	Kooky Jetaime:	Dan's gone
[17:06]	Kooky Jetaime:	like months ago
[17:06]	Kooky Jetaime:	unless theres a new one
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	No, not Daniel Linden, but Dan Linden
[17:06]	Kooky Jetaime:	ah
[17:06]	Kooky Jetaime:	ok
[17:06]	Sidewinder Linden:	talked to him today :)
[17:07]	Kooky Jetaime:	you see the potential for confusion there :)
[17:07]	Andrew Linden:	I also made a stealth deploy of the most recent version of Havok4 to Bisque, Chartreuse, and Sandbox Island.
[17:07]	Kooky Jetaime:	stealth
[17:07]	Kooky Jetaime:	?
[17:07]	Andrew Linden:	so anyone who wants to try to crash the most recent version should hit those regions.
[17:07]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah stealth... as in... I didn't tell Dan about them ;-)
[17:08]	Rex Cronon:	on the main grid?
[17:08]	Hevenz Vansant:	havok 4 linden party :p
[17:08]	Kooky Jetaime:	but doesn't the viewer prompt you and tell you when you transition into them?
[17:08]	Andrew Linden:	No... on the Havok4 preview.
[17:08]	Hevenz Vansant:	so sit
[17:08]	Hevenz Vansant:	yup
[17:08]	Andrew Linden:	Please have a seat DiAmOnDz
[17:08]	DiAmOnDz Babii:	Well thank you Andrew
[17:08]	DiAmOnDz Babii:	:)
[17:09]	Andrew Linden:	I'm keeping the discussion in text so that I can have the transcript
[17:09]	Andrew Linden:	which I post to the wiki.secondlife.com site.
[17:09]	ProfessorNBK Starostin:	what is this place?
[17:09]	Hevenz Vansant:	lmao
[17:09]	ProfessorNBK Starostin:	...there seems to be a Liden here
[17:09]	ProfessorNBK Starostin:	so I'd better be good
[17:09]	Andrew Linden:	Some other stuff was fixed... lemme see if I can find any interesting items.
[17:09]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Sorry I'm late
[17:10]	ProfessorNBK Starostin:	no, it's ok
[17:10]	Andrew Linden:	the table is dynamic
[17:10]	Hevenz Vansant:	the seats generate a new one
[17:10]	ProfessorNBK Starostin:	I'm a randomer on exploration
[17:10]	DiAmOnDz Babii:	oh lol!
[17:10]	DiAmOnDz Babii:	sorry i'll stop talking lol
[17:10]	JetZep Zabelin:	have a seat.. make the table grow bigger =)
[17:10]	ProfessorNBK Starostin:	I've headed on a navigational flight East from Orientatin Island
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	I don't know the SVC equivalent bugs, but here are some of things that were fixed...
[17:12]	ProfessorNBK Starostin:	So, I guess you're all the important people.. the "grownups" so to speak?
[17:12]	Andrew Linden:	selected objects no longer collide with their duplicates
[17:12]	ProfessorNBK Starostin:	ok ,well I'd better make an exit
[17:12]	ProfessorNBK Starostin:	this looks like some serious stuff going down:S
[17:12]	ProfessorNBK Starostin:	it scares me a little
[17:12]	Rex Cronon:	this happen to be andrew's office hour
[17:12]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	You're welcome ot stay ;)
[17:12]	Andrew Linden:	llMoveToTarget() was losing altitude when constantly reset... it still does, but the altitude it loses is very small
[17:12]	ProfessorNBK Starostin:	well, I think I would be a nuisence:S
[17:12]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	We're just here to talk about Physics, bugs, Havok4, things like that
[17:12]	Rex Cronon:	he is going to talk about havok 4
[17:13]	Andrew Linden:	SVC-909 is fixed
[17:13]	Andrew Linden:	SVC-815 (low time dilation with prim animation or movement in linked sets)
[17:13]	Andrew Linden:	also fixed
[17:13]	Andrew Linden:	SVC-909 was llRotLookAt() broen
[17:14]	Andrew Linden:	broken
[17:14]	Andrew Linden:	SVC-942 (llSetPos() in physical NOT like Havok1) is also fixed
[17:15]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Sweet
[17:15]	Andrew Linden:	anyway... some annoying bugs, and all the crash bugs we know about.
[17:15]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	All the crash bugs/
[17:15]	Andrew Linden:	So... the plan is...
[17:15]	Andrew Linden:	We're going to soon deploy Haovk4 to SL proper as an experiment for a few days...
[17:16]	Hevenz Vansant:	nice
[17:16]	Andrew Linden:	but just to some LL private estates first
[17:16]	Andrew Linden:	Then we are going to start a big back-merge effort where we reconcile all of the current Havok4 changes with a new branch off of the main codebase
[17:16]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Woo
[17:16]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Now that should be fun
[17:16]	Andrew Linden:	and we won't be opening up Havok4 to any non LL estate owners until after that is done
[17:17]	Andrew Linden:	it should take about a week to complete, do some initial testing, and fix what we discover broken in the process
[17:17]	Rex Cronon:	i hope it won't be deployed on a friday
[17:17]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I can only imagine how some changes to 1.18.3 to now will interact
[17:17]	Andrew Linden:	it is going to be a big mess, but Kelly Linden and I are going to team up on it.
[17:18]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Such as that llCreateLink exploit
[17:18]	JetZep Zabelin:	ooh i cant wait to see an RC with Havok and WL ! =)
[17:18]	Hevenz Vansant:	what jet said
[17:18]	Andrew Linden:	So... there won't be any SL resident testing of Havok4 for private estates until sometime in Dec
[17:19]	DiAmOnDz Babii:	scuse me :)
[17:19]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	So did I hear right? There shouldn't be any more crash modes?
[17:19]	Mjolnir Uriza:	will those without the havoc 4 see any diffence on estates that are using it
[17:19]	Mjolnir Uriza:	or will that be a supprise when we do finally get it
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, we've fixed all of the known crash modes.
[17:19]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Mjolnir: Havok4 is completely server side
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	There are probably some more... but we don't know what they are yet.
[17:20]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Ideally, there should be almost no difference, but it will be noticeable
[17:20]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, sorry. I'm talking about simulator crashes here.
[17:20]	Andrew Linden:	Not client crashes.
[17:20]	Kitto Flora:	I found weird stuff last night, probably to do with physics. Non-crashing.
[17:20]	Kooky Jetaime:	andrew - by fixed, are you saying at this point its virtually impossible to physics crash a sim, or is it still possible just much harder?
[17:20]	Kooky Jetaime:	with anything "known"
[17:20]	Andrew Linden:	No progress on vehicle bugs. We're leaving those while we focus on some non-vehicle problems.
[17:20]	Sidewinder Linden:	some behaviors will be different.. speeds of certain things, "feel" items that have to do with movement might be a bit different
[17:21]	Andrew Linden:	Kooky by "fixed" I mean... it is harder to crash the simulator. In fact, I don't know how to do it.
[17:21]	Sidewinder Linden:	kooky - we do not have a known way to crash it
[17:21]	Rex Cronon:	sorry, but what exploit are u talking about?
[17:21]	Kooky Jetaime:	whoo hoo
[17:21]	Sidewinder Linden:	you can slow it down, but it will recover
[17:21]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Don't worry Andrew, We'll figure a way for yah ;)
[17:21]	Andrew Linden:	I suspect there are ways, however we do not know how.
[17:21]	Kooky Jetaime:	yea, what Ryozu said..someone will find a way
[17:21]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Hopefully us
[17:21]	Hevenz Vansant:	yeah lemme take a crack at crashin it :p
[17:21]	Andrew Linden:	I wish I had a nice prize for the first few distinct crash modes discovered.
[17:21]	Kooky Jetaime:	Andrew - I presume that once we start finding ways, it'll be a lot easier to correct/prevent than it was in H1?
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	What would be a worthy reward?
[17:22]	Sidewinder Linden:	the good news, is that now that we have the known crash vectors covered, figuring out new crashes will likely be much easier
[17:22]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Nah, It's hard to say. Actually sounds like something to celebrate. So Congrats on that guys
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, probably Kooky. Fixing new crash modes should now be "doable".
[17:22]	Kooky Jetaime:	ok
[17:22]	Kooky Jetaime:	goodie
[17:23]	Kooky Jetaime:	get to work boyz...help flush it out.. *looks at the griefers of SL
[17:23]	Andrew Linden:	If we find one deep in Havok4 libs we may need to recruit some Havok engineers to help us.
[17:23]	Hevenz Vansant:	:x
[17:23]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I've actually seen a few PN members in the Havok4 preview
[17:23]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	They can't be too happy ;
[17:23]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	;)
[17:24]	Gaius Goodliffe:	If they figure something out while it's still in beta, that's a good thing. :)
[17:24]	Kooky Jetaime:	Ryozu - they're probably goin "aww fuck, they took away our fun... huk-yuk"
[17:24]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Haha
[17:24]	Hevenz Vansant:	rofl
[17:24]	JetZep Zabelin:	=) lol
[17:24]	Kooky Jetaime:	"ya mean now we actually have to work to cause trouble?"
[17:24]	Andrew Linden:	There is a new known problem however... complex dynamic objects can fall through the heightfield.
[17:24]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Beta grid needs more griefers! :D
[17:24]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Huh, define "Complex"?
[17:24]	Kitto Flora:	What about methods of messing up/crashieng another av - Orbiting for instance? Are they all now suppressed?
[17:24]	Kooky Jetaime:	define: heightfield"
[17:24]	Andrew Linden:	Simon Linden is currently working on it.
[17:25]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Kooky: Ground
[17:25]	Kooky Jetaime:	ah
[17:25]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Kitto: Most if not all, as far as I know
[17:25]	Kooky Jetaime:	why didn't you just call it that
[17:25]	Dre4m Goodfellow:	ive noticed that I have a remote rc car i cant bring it out if Im high up.... cuz it will fall through
[17:25]	Andrew Linden:	Many of the orbit or blitz modes against avatars are gone.
[17:25]	Rex Cronon:	do u really thing that if they find something to crash the sim are they going to share that with andrew:)
[17:25]	Kooky Jetaime:	what is our max speed going to be?
[17:25]	JetZep Zabelin:	OSSM
[17:25]	Andrew Linden:	I'm not positive I got them all. I'd be curious to hear any reports of methods that work.
[17:25]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Kooky: You know how engineers are, proper terms > popular terms
[17:25]	Kooky Jetaime:	I love hurling myself up at extreme rates
[17:26]	Hevenz Vansant:	lmao kook
[17:26]	JetZep Zabelin:	is building height up to 1024 now?
[17:26]	Andrew Linden:	Max avatar speed is hard coded at 256 meters per second, I think.
[17:26]	Kooky Jetaime:	Hevenz - I like to skydive
[17:26]	Kitto Flora:	I still see odd su sink into ground a bit sometimes, then it recovers - comes back out
[17:26]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	256?
[17:26]	Kooky Jetaime:	I can throw myself to 10,000m in a couple of seconds
[17:26]	Kooky Jetaime:	its nice
[17:26]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I'll see if I can break that ;)
[17:26]	Andrew Linden:	However, there is a 'softness" to that limit, in that it may be hard to achieve full speed before some slowing down kicks in.
[17:26]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I noticed today that llRezAtRoot fails over 1024m. That'll break some things... (it's maxed at 4096 on Havok1)
[17:26]	Hevenz Vansant:	sounds like we need to go skydiving heh
[17:26]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Yeah, there is still that
[17:26]	Rex Cronon:	so even if i push myself i can't go faster than that?
[17:27]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, objects are limited to 1024 or lower... unless you are sitting on it.
[17:27]	Kooky Jetaime:	why are we bringing physical down from 4096 to 1024?
[17:27]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	The two seperate height limits: Any plans to seperate them again? Most aviators prefer the 4096 for pure physics
[17:27]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Oh, sitting eh?
[17:27]	Kooky Jetaime:	and what you mean unless sitting on it?
[17:27]	Kooky Jetaime:	whats the roof for sitting
[17:27]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	That should make the planes happy
[17:27]	Kooky Jetaime:	?
[17:27]	Andrew Linden:	Because there are some lag issues if you create large piles of objects outside the physics engine simulation.
[17:27]	Kitto Flora:	Death to lag!
[17:27]	Andrew Linden:	So planes can go above 1024... however they cannot rez bullets above that.
[17:28]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Might find a few people unhappy about that one though
[17:28]	Andrew Linden:	rezzing above 1024 will silently fail.
[17:28]	Kooky Jetaime:	ye[
[17:28]	Gaius Goodliffe nods.
[17:28]	Kooky Jetaime:	yep
[17:28]	JetZep Zabelin:	Are the mega prims going to be allowed.. at least some of the more useful ones?
[17:28]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	JetZep: That's a sort of on the backburner
[17:28]	Kooky Jetaime:	Andrew - is 1024 the limit now for everything, or will it be 768/1024?
[17:28]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	There's no answer for quite some time
[17:28]	Andrew Linden:	Oh... megaprims. Thanks for reminding me. I almost remembered to put megaprims back in today.
[17:29]	JetZep Zabelin:	THanks =)
[17:29]	Andrew Linden:	But got sidetracked. I need to do that soon -- before we trial it for our own estate.
[17:29]	Kitto Flora:	I found a good use for a 256 x 10 x 0.01 megaprim... edge of world fence.
[17:29]	Andrew Linden:	Kooky, the simulator's limit is 1024
[17:29]	Kooky Jetaime:	ok
[17:29]	JetZep Zabelin:	Kitto its good for creating a new "ground level" too
[17:29]	Andrew Linden:	however the client has some limits that are currently set to 768, I think.
[17:29]	Kooky Jetaime:	so we get another 256m nearly of building area
[17:29]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Ah yes, the client tends to send objects down if you edit them
[17:29]	Andrew Linden:	Yes
[17:30]	Kitto Flora:	A new 'fllor' in 1 prim?
[17:30]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Yay, we can start the kilometer high club. :D
[17:30]	Kooky Jetaime:	thats an easy fix though
[17:30]	Kitto Flora:	floor
[17:30]	Andrew Linden:	but really high skyboxes will not be possible
[17:30]	Kooky Jetaime:	kitto - yes
[17:30]	Kooky Jetaime:	why not?
[17:30]	Kitto Flora:	Sounds good to me
[17:30]	JetZep Zabelin:	I've seen the infinite prim used as a ground level at the Hawaii sim.. worked ok at least visually
[17:31]	Andrew Linden:	Kooky, why not what? Could you rephrase that question?
[17:31]	Kooky Jetaime:	why not ndrew Linden: but really high skyboxes will not be possible
[17:31]	Andrew Linden:	Oh... skyboxen above 1024 will not be possible... unless you are sitting on it.
[17:31]	Kooky Jetaime:	oh
[17:31]	Kooky Jetaime:	they arn't now anywho
[17:31]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Actually, they are. Just tricky to get in place.
[17:31]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Technically, they are
[17:32]	Andrew Linden:	Oh, I thought there were ways to get boxen up there.
[17:32]	Kooky Jetaime:	and who wants a 29 prim skybox
[17:32]	JetZep Zabelin:	i dont think anyones going to complain about the increase =)
[17:32]	Kooky Jetaime:	well, yea, there are
[17:32]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	You have to rez them from an attachment, and they'll stay in place
[17:32]	Kooky Jetaime:	it involves a lot of streching
[17:32]	Kooky Jetaime:	oh
[17:32]	Kooky Jetaime:	?
[17:32]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	In Havok1 anyways
[17:32]	Kooky Jetaime:	hmmm oh well
[17:32]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Anything up to 4095, you can rez, and it will stay, but you can't edit or move
[17:33]	Kooky Jetaime:	i've always had things get thrust down to 768
[17:33]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	You can build up there too, if you only use resizing to translate
[17:33]	Andrew Linden:	If the outcry against the 1024 limit is very loud, we may consider investigating how bad it will be if we reduce the restrictions.
[17:33]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	But as soon as you move something, it'll drop to 768
[17:33]	Andrew Linden:	But I'm inclined to push 1024 atm.
[17:33]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Andrew: The only thing people use above 1024 for will be things like dogfights, airplane or not
[17:33]	JetZep Zabelin:	link the objects then push them up, you can get a little bit higher than 768 if you do it right
[17:34]	JetZep Zabelin:	i mean not push, but move them
[17:34]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I hate to see things go backwards -- would be nice if we got bigger limits rather than smaller ones.
[17:34]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	The occasional sky high box for privacy as well
[17:34]	Andrew Linden:	Wearing the skybox as an attachment and dropping into the world works in Havok1
[17:34]	Rex Cronon:	if u raise it to 4k than a lot of cages, followers might have a hard time do what they are supposed to do
[17:34]	Kooky Jetaime:	Gaius - arguably we are getting a bigger limit
[17:34]	Kooky Jetaime:	we're going from 768 max heght to 1024
[17:34]	Andrew Linden:	however such a box does not survive a save/load cycle of the region
[17:35]	Kooky Jetaime:	to do anything
[17:35]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	We are in some reguard getting higher limits, in others, lower
[17:35]	Andrew Linden:	and that loss ignores no-copy or unique objects... they are truely lost
[17:35]	JetZep Zabelin:	I've noticed more derez loss when building up high, but that was a couple months ago
[17:35]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Really, didn't know about that Andrew
[17:35]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Kooky: We're going from 4096 to 1024 for much of the stuff I deal with.
[17:35]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Gaius: What kind of stuff?
[17:35]	Andrew Linden:	What kind of stuff is that Gaius?
[17:36]	Kooky Jetaime:	Too bad you can't just do 1024 for everything, 2048 for physical...... its kind of splitting the difference, not giving us to 4K, but not taking all of the "open sky" either
[17:36]	Gaius Goodliffe:	You pretty much hit it on the nose earlier: dogfighters can't rez bullets above 1024 anymore. Will need to add something to my scripts to warn people rather than silently fail, maybe somehow restrict the biplanes frmo getting that high or something...
[17:36]	Kooky Jetaime:	oh, if we're sitting on a physical object, whats the celing?
[17:36]	Andrew Linden:	vehicles can go to 4096
[17:36]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	But no bullets, right
[17:37]	Kooky Jetaime:	but no bullets
[17:37]	Andrew Linden:	no LSL rezzing above 1024
[17:37]	Gaius Goodliffe:	For my own purposes, I'd almost prefer they can't fly that high if they can't work effectively that high.
[17:37]	Andrew Linden:	dropping attachments above that... I think they snap to 1024, so you may lose track of them.
[17:37]	Kooky Jetaime:	I think everyone would give up 1024 or 1536m if they could rez bullets up to say 2.5-3K
[17:37]	JetZep Zabelin:	make windlight render it like we're in space that high and avatar suffocates ;P
[17:38]	Gaius Goodliffe:	lol
[17:38]	Kooky Jetaime:	nice idea JZ
[17:38]	Andrew Linden:	We used to tranfer from sky to stars a looong time ago
[17:38]	Kooky Jetaime:	have the screen pulse red like a FPS when under water and out of air
[17:38]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Not a bad idea actually, except breathable air needs to go much higher than 1km.
[17:38]	Andrew Linden:	but then a developer with an eye toward cutting cruft and raising render framerates pulled that out
[17:38]	JetZep Zabelin:	enable auto-damage above a certain point unless in a spaceship (j/k)
[17:38]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Pfff
[17:38]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Awww.
[17:38]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I always wanted to go into space
[17:39]	Kooky Jetaime:	well... with windlight adding cruft back in
[17:39]	Ryozu Yamamoto chuckles
[17:39]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I'd love to had a setting like water level, except it's "space level". :)
[17:39]	Kooky Jetaime:	maybe its time to put it back in at say 20 miles?
[17:39]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	With windlight, it'd be a simple change of "Day->Night" above a certain height
[17:39]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Oooo
[17:39]	Andrew Linden:	with a smooth transition between
[17:39]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Easily done with the day cycle editor, but instead of time, height
[17:39]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Yes, if nothing else, Windlight with appropriate scripting might provide that...
[17:40]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Perhaps if there are LSL hooks to load windlight settings
[17:40]	Kooky Jetaime:	Ryozu - definatly not gonna happen until after mono thogh
[17:40]	Sidewinder Linden:	... but... that office hour was earlier today ;)
[17:40]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Ugh, don't say that.
[17:40]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	LSL controlled windlight would have a LOT of potential: Scripted enviromental settings for say, going into sewers
[17:40]	JetZep Zabelin:	hehee
[17:40]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Windlight's nothing but a toy until we have server side scripting for it.
[17:40]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Going into sewers wont' require using water level to produce fog, for instance
[17:41]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	But that's offtopic, yeah, sorry =D
[17:41]	JetZep Zabelin:	I think you have to bring that up at the WL meeting
[17:41]	Andrew Linden:	I don't think WindLight has volumetric "fog" yet, does it?
[17:41]	Kooky Jetaime:	Gaius - not really.... since WL settings are going to be (Eventually) transferable
[17:41]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Andrew: Not Volumetric, but it could be faked
[17:41]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Well, to some extent
[17:41]	Kooky Jetaime:	Andrew - what I would love to see is "water on a prim".... could you apply the water physics to a prim?
[17:42]	Hevenz Vansant:	better keep that cieling low otherwise anshe chung will wanna sell SL moon property :p
[17:42]	Kooky Jetaime:	it would let people make realistic ponds
[17:42]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Kooky: I don't quite see how that makes it useful. :|
[17:42]	Hevenz Vansant:	ceiling too
[17:42]	Andrew Linden:	btw, I saw a demo of the HTML on a prim project today. They really are working on it.
[17:42]	Kooky Jetaime:	Gaius - which?
[17:42]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Kooky: Maybe once they have llSetTextureAnim for sculpty
[17:42]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Andrew: ooooh, can you click links?
[17:43]	JetZep Zabelin:	I've been wondering about the different objects materials: wood, stone, rubber, flesh etc.. Is there a wiki or anything that explains these better? Maybe water could be a material type
[17:43]	Kooky Jetaime:	hmm people won't be happy till you have flash on a prim but good to hear
[17:43]	Kooky Jetaime:	I'd love html on it
[17:43]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Kooky: Windlight without server side/scripting support.
[17:43]	Kooky Jetaime:	in world browsing.
[17:43]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Andrew: RE: Html on a prim, Combine that with the new secondlife: app handler protocol, and you can do some really neat things.
[17:43]	Andrew Linden:	Ryozu, no. In fact, they have a tally of all the times people ask them that.
[17:43]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Haha
[17:43]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Oh well, too bad
[17:43]	Kooky Jetaime:	gaius - WL will have server side support
[17:43]	Andrew Linden:	The initial version will not have clickable links on the surface of the prim.
[17:43]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Single click teleports would be nice
[17:43]	Kooky Jetaime:	in time, estate managers can set up their sim sky however they want
[17:44]	Andrew Linden:	However, it still has some cool applications.
[17:44]	Kooky Jetaime:	Ryozu - I have one?
[17:44]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Have one?
[17:44]	Kooky Jetaime:	single click teleport
[17:44]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Oh?
[17:44]	Kooky Jetaime:	yea
[17:44]	Mjolnir Uriza:	sae level and water elvel should be diffent really there are lots of ponds and lake higher than sea level in rl
[17:44]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	From sim to sim?
[17:44]	Mjolnir Uriza:	why the only one level limit in sl
[17:44]	Kooky Jetaime:	what I'd love to see is a 0 click teleport
[17:44]	Kooky Jetaime:	oh.... no, just single sim
[17:44]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I'm talking about sim to sim
[17:45]	JetZep Zabelin:	Would a water material type for object be possible?
[17:45]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Would also be nice to be able to create air-filled areas under the sea. But now we're WAY off topic. :)
[17:45]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	The new Search client enables a new URL handling protocol
[17:45]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	secondlife://app/teleport/sim/x/y/z
[17:45]	Kitto Flora:	Sky - I could not care less about - I turn clouds off. But tunnel shading - bu script control - now THAT would be useful!
[17:45]	Kooky Jetaime:	hmm
[17:45]	Kooky Jetaime:	whats app?
[17:45]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	clicking that link would, on the new client, instantly teleport you
[17:45]	Kooky Jetaime:	oh, no map to go?
[17:46]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	No map, just teleport, that's how the new search feature does things
[17:46]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	There's a whole slew of these new protocol handlers
[17:46]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	One for bringing up user profiles, one for group profiles
[17:46]	Andrew Linden:	right, that is web services at work
[17:46]	Gaius Goodliffe:	awesome
[17:46]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	It will be very nice
[17:46]	JetZep Zabelin:	There is a discussion about default clicks and right clicks for different types of items on the JIRA
[17:46]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	If the HTML on a prim project allowed link clicking
[17:47]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	It could enable instant single click teleports to other sims
[17:47]	Andrew Linden:	eventually, if not already, those links will be available to non-SL clients... python scripts or what have you.
[17:47]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Andrew: Someone already made their own website use those links, Tmyclyk
[17:48]	Andrew Linden:	ok good. That is the plan.
[17:48]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Oh, I had a question, from last time, what was it =/
[17:48]	Andrew Linden:	We'll be using those web services internally, and opening them up for external access too.
[17:50]	Andrew Linden:	I don't have much else on my own agenda.
[17:50]	Gaius Goodliffe drops a pin.
[17:50]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Oh!
[17:50]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Andrew
[17:50]	Kitto Flora:	Can I get a comment on some weird stuff from last night, before Lindens depart ..
[17:50]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Do you think we may sometime in the future see the ability for scripts to rotate avatars again?
[17:50]	Kitto Flora:	If its known about, or should be investigated more?
[17:50]	Hevenz Vansant:	that would be nice
[17:51]	Andrew Linden:	Yes Ryozu that will eventually be possible.
[17:51]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	It was possible in Beta, long long long ago
[17:51]	Kooky Jetaime:	what was last night ?
[17:51]	Andrew Linden:	We'll probably do it when we provide analog control of the avatar
[17:51]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Removed for some reason I don't know, but I"m seeing more and more desire for it
[17:51]	Andrew Linden:	which will be sometime after Havok4 is "done".
[17:51]	Kooky Jetaime:	oh, are dynamic reflections back in the WL FL?
[17:51]	Kitto Flora:	Lats night was more H4 testing I did
[17:51]	Kooky Jetaime:	oh, k
[17:51]	Hevenz Vansant:	the water reflects prims
[17:51]	Andrew Linden:	"Removed"? I don't recall anyone ever being able to set the avatar rotation.
[17:52]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, what are the issues?
[17:52]	Sidewinder Linden:	kitto... one thing to remember is that we will probably have a new build on the beta preview - i hope late tomorrow - with many additional things fixed... :)
[17:52]	Kitto Flora:	This is excessive lean on a vehicle going up and down a helical track
[17:53]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, is it a vehicle bug?
[17:53]	Kitto Flora:	Its very different in H1 and H4
[17:53]	Kitto Flora:	Actually MG and H4
[17:53]	JetZep Zabelin:	oh banking =)
[17:53]	Kitto Flora:	I dont know what it is Andrew
[17:53]	Andrew Linden:	We're punting all vehicle bugs into the future for now.
[17:53]	Kitto Flora:	Its like banking
[17:53]	Sidewinder Linden:	we will be getting back to vehicle behaviors after these builds...
[17:53]	Kitto Flora:	But it does not happen on MG
[17:53]	Andrew Linden:	Right... might be non-vehicle specific. Not sure.
[17:53]	Kitto Flora:	I understand what Lindens are going to do
[17:54]	Sidewinder Linden:	we want to be sure that we've got solid, reliable, non-crashy operation, and that we are not causing rez and content corruption problems first...
[17:54]	Andrew Linden:	which is whic in the picture Kittto?
[17:54]	Kitto Flora:	What I am doing is investigating stuff for you to look at in future
[17:54]	Sidewinder Linden:	then dig in on vehicle cleanup from this point
[17:54]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	http://lslwiki.net/lslwiki/wakka.php?wakka=llPointAt
[17:54]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Kelly may know more about it
[17:54]	Sidewinder Linden:	ok cool kitto
[17:54]	Kitto Flora:	The Green is in H4
[17:54]	Kitto Flora:	45 degree lean
[17:54]	Kitto Flora:	The black in MG
[17:54]	Kitto Flora:	maybe 20 degree lean at worst
[17:54]	Kitto Flora:	Here the KICKER -
[17:54]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, and you saw that last night?
[17:54]	Kitto Flora:	In H1 sims on Beta it got the 45 degree lean too!
[17:55]	Kitto Flora:	H1 = H4 on bata
[17:55]	Sidewinder Linden:	hmmm
[17:55]	Kitto Flora:	H1 on Beta is NOT same as MG
[17:55]	Kitto Flora:	Yes this was last night
[17:55]	Andrew Linden:	Lemme check to make sure the H1 regions on the preview really are H1...
[17:55]	Sidewinder Linden:	hmm so the h1 simulator on beta did NOT have the same behavior as on the main grid?
[17:55]	Kitto Flora:	Ah ok
[17:55]	Kitto Flora:	Ground said H1
[17:55]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	That reminds me
[17:55]	Sidewinder Linden:	hmm do you know which sim it was kitto?
[17:55]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I have a car that, on Beta Grid
[17:55]	Sidewinder Linden:	which region?
[17:56]	Kitto Flora:	Looking..
[17:56]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Works fine with 1 passenger, but with 2, suddenly leans 45 degrees
[17:56]	Andrew Linden:	from a casual inspection I would expect the H1 regions on the preview to really be H1
[17:56]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Dan Linden has a copy of it
[17:56]	Kitto Flora:	Its was in Fame
[17:56]	Kitto Flora:	Fame Sim
[17:56]	Ryozu Yamamoto gave you SLR Mclaren.
[17:56]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	It only bugs out with two avs seated
[17:56]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Could be related
[17:56]	Kitto Flora:	Maybe
[17:57]	Kitto Flora:	hard tfor me to guess what causes this t all
[17:57]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Did you rez IN the H1 sim? I've noticed if you rez something in an H1 sim, you get radically different behaviour than if you rez in an H4 sim and fly/drive/whatveer into an H1 sim.
[17:57]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Car is to the side, anyone can take a copy
[17:57]	Kitto Flora:	Gaius - yes theres that effect too
[17:57]	Andrew Linden:	really Gaius? That sounds very bad.
[17:57]	Sidewinder Linden:	gaius - crossing regions from h4-h1 with a vehicle is konwn strange
[17:57]	Kitto Flora:	These engines were fresh rez in sim
[17:57]	Gaius Goodliffe nods.
[17:58]	Kitto Flora:	And travelling at same speeds
[17:58]	Sidewinder Linden:	andrew - i think it's because of the region cross, not so much where it was rezzed... just my guess
[17:58]	Kitto Flora:	Right - region cross will mess stuff up h1/h4
[17:59]	Andrew Linden:	Maybe I should actually investigate region crossings. I'd left that to some of the other dev's so far.
[17:59]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Interesting enough, region crossing from H1 to H4 seems to be mostly harmless. It's the reverse that always goes bonkers.
[17:59]	Kitto Flora:	I agree with taht
[17:59]	Kitto Flora:	It kills the Tako sail boat
[18:00]	Sidewinder Linden:	oh by the way, it is possible over the next few weeks that we may need to release some of the beta preview area for other projects to have some space... any thoughts on the best way to set up so that you know you're on havok4/havok1 sims? by name? by putting textures on all of them?
[18:00]	Sidewinder Linden:	yes the tako problem is known
[18:00]	Sidewinder Linden:	it plays with other sailboats too...
[18:00]	Sidewinder Linden:	part of the bigger vehicle cleanup
[18:00]	Gaius Goodliffe:	The ground texture thing works well I think.
[18:00]	Kooky Jetaime:	sidewinder - don't you get prompted on entering a "different" sim ?
[18:00]	Kooky Jetaime:	you do on the MG
[18:00]	Andrew Linden:	Maybe we should make a little H4 continent
[18:00]	Sidewinder Linden:	hmmm
[18:00]	Kitto Flora:	The ground texture is good for me
[18:00]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I think the sim names
[18:00]	Rex Cronon:	how about if is says in the sim name if is 1 or 4?
[18:00]	shield-anti-push-psyke 0.05 whispers: Shield active.
[18:00]	Kooky Jetaime:	modal box " This sim is using a different version of the server"
[18:01]	Gaius Goodliffe:	That bo that pops up is a menace if you're piloting a vehicle. :p
[18:01]	Sidewinder Linden:	ok...
[18:01]	Gaius Goodliffe:	*box
[18:01]	Andrew Linden:	But yeah, we're going to have to give up some preview space to other projects.
[18:01]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Yes it is, lol
[18:01]	Kitto Flora:	The popup box is a pain
[18:01]	Sidewinder Linden:	so i'm thinking we might end up with a configuration like this:
[18:01]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I'd rather NOT see the box that must be dismissed. A chat notice would be fine.
[18:01]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, the popup is terrible.
[18:01]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I prefer the sim name itself be changed, so I know what kind of regin I'm teleporting to
[18:01]	Sidewinder Linden:	four regions of H4 on a class 5 server
[18:01]	Kooky Jetaime:	yes Andrew, quit hogging the whole grid for your itty bitty project
[18:01]	Sidewinder Linden:	four regions of H4 on a class 4 server
[18:01]	Kooky Jetaime:	*chuckles
[18:01]	Rex Cronon:	like if ends with H1 i havok 1, or H4 i havok 4
[18:01]	Sidewinder Linden:	four regions of H1 on a class 4 server
[18:01]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	If it ends with HTML it's HTML on a prim region
[18:01]	Sidewinder Linden:	twelve for havok - the rest for other teams
[18:01]	Dre4m Goodfellow:	hmmm BSOD crash....
[18:01]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Etc
[18:01]	Sidewinder Linden:	does that work?
[18:02]	Dre4m Goodfellow:	/tab
[18:02]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Sidewinder; As long as the regions are diverse enough to test things
[18:02]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	12 should be enough
[18:02]	Sidewinder Linden:	kk
[18:02]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	We need an all water region
[18:02]	Kooky Jetaime:	Sidewinder - can you edit the covenant pages on a per sim basis?
[18:02]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	An all flat region
[18:02]	Kitto Flora:	I really only use 2 H4 sims, and one H1 sim for ref
[18:02]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Some inbetweens
[18:02]	Kooky Jetaime:	you can detail whats being previewed on that particular sim
[18:02]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	A hilly region
[18:02]	Sidewinder Linden:	ok cool
[18:02]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Etc
[18:02]	Kitto Flora:	A lot of Beta sims are not very useful at all - no build and the stuff in them is non-relevant
[18:02]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	THat's another
[18:02]	Kooky Jetaime:	make that a standard practice too
[18:03]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	We need at least one sim with Push enabled
[18:03]	Sidewinder Linden:	ok
[18:03]	Kitto Flora:	Yeah
[18:03]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	And one with damage
[18:03]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Mutually exclusive
[18:03]	Kitto Flora:	More Push OK would be useful to some I'm sure
[18:03]	Rex Cronon:	like a combat sim?
[18:03]	Sidewinder Linden:	copy of a weapons sandbox ;)
[18:03]	Rex Cronon:	no restrictions
[18:03]	Kooky Jetaime:	you can do a sim with 4 quadrants, no push/no dam, push no dam, dam no push, push dam
[18:03]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	It's easiest to test things when they aren't coupled with other things
[18:03]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I can't test llPush if I die every time it pushes me
[18:03]	Andrew Linden:	some of that stuff is configurable on a per-parcel basis.
[18:03]	Kooky Jetaime:	we don't need a full sim do we of each?
[18:04]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Half a sim would be ok too
[18:04]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I don't know if this would be feasible but
[18:04]	Kooky Jetaime:	well, in quads, you'd have half a sim of push, and half a sim of damage
[18:04]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I think it'd be a good idea to drop the whole copying a portion of the main grid for Beta
[18:04]	Andrew Linden:	ok, well I've got to go
[18:04]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	At least, not for particular project testing
[18:04]	Sidewinder Linden:	ryozu i have many people lined up who really want that
[18:04]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Some testing needs more specialized things
[18:05]	Andrew Linden:	thank you all for coming
[18:05]	Rex Cronon:	bye andrew
[18:05]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Thank you, Andrew.
[18:05]	Andrew Linden:	BTW, I mentioned earlier...
[18:05]	Sidewinder Linden:	in parrticular for testing complex builds that already exist
[18:05]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	True
[18:05]	Kooky Jetaime:	Ryozu - it has its advantages, Toxia was transferred to the aditit
[18:05]	Kitto Flora:	So there 'no clue yet' on the lean thing?
[18:05]	Andrew Linden:	I updated Bisque and Chartruese with recent versions of the Havok4 binary.
[18:05]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	But sometimes just taking a part of the mainland doesn't suit all the needs of a testing setup
[18:05]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Hence why it can be hard to test sailboats
[18:05]	Andrew Linden:	So all of the bugs I mentioned in the beginning of this hour are fixed there.
[18:06]	Kooky Jetaime:	Ryzuo - perhaps what we need is a grid of 16 sims, in a pre-set configuration for testing
[18:06]	Andrew Linden:	We'll probably update all the regions in the preview tomorrow afternoon.
[18:06]	Kooky Jetaime:	4x4
[18:06]	Kooky Jetaime:	different perms, landscape
[18:06]	Kooky Jetaime:	no pre-existing build
[18:06]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Will there be a database/inventory refresh sometime soon?
[18:06]	Kooky Jetaime:	just different perms
[18:07]	Andrew Linden:	No db update that I know of... so a few weeks off.
[18:07]	Kooky Jetaime:	Andrew - perhaps what would be useful is a way to "push" an object from Agni to Aditi
[18:07]	Gaius Goodliffe nods.
[18:07]	Kooky Jetaime:	via web form perhaps?
[18:07]	Andrew Linden:	If the H4 preview gets merged with some other projects then maybe we'll have a database update, dunno.
[18:07]	Sidewinder Linden:	right, we won't be doing a database update with this one
[18:07]	Kooky Jetaime:	enter the uuid on a form, and it will hit the asset server and transfer that object
[18:08]	Sidewinder Linden:	if anyone needs their individual inventory refreshed i can take care of that for you
[18:08]	Andrew Linden:	Heh, I try not to use the terms "agni" and "aditi" in my office hours
[18:08]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Sidewinder: I'd definitely like a refresh, have a new airship I want to bring over and test.
[18:08]	Kooky Jetaime:	well, someone was talking about "technical" terms.. mr heightlimit or whatever the ground is.. :P
[18:08]	Andrew Linden:	since I'm not sure everyone knows what they are, and they are sort of leaky terminology from internal LL lingo
[18:09]	Kooky Jetaime:	*Chuckles
[18:09]	Sidewinder Linden:	ok ... realize gaius that this will wipe your beta grid inventory and do a full snapshot replace with it's current status on the second life world when you log in next.. is that what you want?
[18:09]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Precisely. :D
[18:09]	Sidewinder Linden:	ok
[18:09]	Sidewinder Linden:	minute
[18:09]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Andrew: I wouldn't worry about the agni/aditi thing, most should know it
[18:09]	Kooky Jetaime:	Sidewinder - maybe you should see if theres a way to automate that... a webform perhaps? :)