User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2007 11 29

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[17:00]	Rex Cronon:	hello andrew
[17:01]	Chair: Press Page Up to move chair up, or Page Down to move chair down
[17:01]	Andrew Linden:	Office hours are now in session.
[17:02]	Cricket McMahon:	hi every one sorry i wasn't being rude, just deep in im
[17:02]	Andrew Linden:	Hi Rex
[17:02]	Rex Cronon:	hi andrew
[17:03]	Andrew Linden:	I think we were trying to get an update to the Havok4 preview this afternoon.
[17:03]	Andrew Linden:	Lemme see what the status of that is...
[17:03]	Rex Cronon:	does it make any difference if i connect to the beta using the RC?
[17:04]	Andrew Linden:	According to the ticket it has been deployed.
[17:04]	Andrew Linden:	The RC? I suspect the latest RC client will not work on the preview
[17:04]	JenzZa Misfit:	hello Andrew :)
[17:04]	Andrew Linden:	we were having trouble connecting with the latest client ourselves
[17:04]	Andrew Linden:	so we held the version back just a bit
[17:05]	Andrew Linden:	but it still has lots of bug fixes
[17:05]	Andrew Linden:	I was just going through the public jira list, trying to close stuff
[17:05]	JenzZa Misfit:	do we know * when * havok4 will roll into the main grid yet ? we have been testing at the beta grid ,etc
[17:05]	Andrew Linden:	Hi JenzZa, have a seat if you like.
[17:05]	Vincent Nacon:	heya
[17:05]	JenzZa Misfit:	oh magic seats
[17:05]	Vincent Nacon:	got Les to come btw
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	This is just an office hour that I hold twice a week
[17:06]	JenzZa Misfit:	sweet
[17:06]	Les White:	hellos :)
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	so if you have questions about SL, the service, or LL, I can answer them (probably)
[17:06]	JenzZa Misfit:	oh they sort of announced it like you were answering havok4 questions in particular .. no ?
[17:06]	Vincent Nacon:	anything new on havok 4?
[17:06]	Dahlia Trimble:	I have a physics question in general. It seems that when physical objects move, the client interpolates the motion and makes it appear smooth. Would it be feasable to allow non-physical movement to move at a simulated speed as wellm so it appears to move smoothly?
[17:07]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, some new stuff... we just deployed an update
[17:07]	Andrew Linden:	it should be live now
[17:07]	Vincent Nacon:	oh already?
[17:07]	Andrew Linden:	er... you mean "finally?"
[17:07]	JenzZa Misfit:	no way ! now ?
[17:07]	Vincent Nacon:	muhahahaha!
[17:07]	Andrew Linden:	it has been about two weeks since we actually deployed an update
[17:07]	Vincent Nacon:	yeah
[17:07]	Andrew Linden:	Here is the summary about what is fixed...
[17:07]	Vincent Nacon:	do tell
[17:07]	Andrew Linden:	all crash modes have been fixed
[17:07]	JenzZa Misfit:	cool
[17:07]	Andrew Linden:	we don't know of any ways to crash the simulator
[17:08]	Vincent Nacon:	what about 32 torus clone?
[17:08]	Andrew Linden:	so we're Very Interested if anyone succeeds in crashing it
[17:08]	Rex Cronon:	no more deep thinking?
[17:08]	Andrew Linden:	However... you CAN lag it
[17:08]	Andrew Linden:	if you throw enough physical or scripted objects at it
[17:08]	Andrew Linden:	however, the lag should never get as bad as Havok1 can get... at least not for the physical object overload case
[17:09]	Andrew Linden:	that is... you can probably still load it as much with scripts
[17:09]	Andrew Linden:	the Havok4 project doesn't have any special work in the script engine
[17:09]	Vincent Nacon:	but what about at sudden rez complex like 32 torus prim-linkset and split off as a clone?
[17:09]	Andrew Linden:	but no more deep thinks...
[17:09]	Vincent Nacon:	those are snapper
[17:09]	Andrew Linden:	32 torus prim should be fine, more or less
[17:09]	Andrew Linden:	when it comes to lag
[17:10]	Vincent Nacon:	alrighty
[17:10]	JenzZa Misfit:	did you guys work out all the vehicle bugs ? I was working with Sidewinder Linden on this
[17:10]	Andrew Linden:	there are other problems with Havok4 that Havok1 does not have
[17:10]	Andrew Linden:	but it is getting a lot closer
[17:10]	Andrew Linden:	No, vehicle bugs are still happening.
[17:10]	JenzZa Misfit:	bah !
[17:10]	Andrew Linden:	We've been focusing on everything bug vehicles for the last few weeks.
[17:10]	Vincent Nacon:	how abou the prim gap/overlappers issue?
[17:10]	JenzZa Misfit:	ok .. and did i get this right ::::::: its NOT in the main grid YET .. correct ? havok4
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	Please describe the prim gap/overlappers issues.
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	No, not in SL proper yet.
[17:11]	JenzZa Misfit:	k
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	Only on the Havok4 preview.
[17:11]	Les White:	it bounces a vehicles on prim seems way out of proportion.
[17:11]	Les White:	sidewalk cracks are ramps to a torus wheel
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	Oh... I believe that is still a bug in Havok4... crossing prim seams on a road
[17:12]	Vincent Nacon:	like when you have prims lined up together on the same axis perfectly... physical objects (most vehicles but nothing to do with the script itself) can bounce from those area
[17:12]	Andrew Linden:	There were some fixes to that more than a month ago... so it isn't as bad, but there are still some ways to trigger it.
[17:13]	Kitto Flora:	Are you claiming that a vehicle 'bounces' when sliding across a smooth seam between prims?
[17:13]	Andrew Linden:	One other notable change in Havok4... the "avatar sit behavior" has been redone
[17:13]	Les White:	yes
[17:13]	Vincent Nacon:	one sec
[17:13]	Andrew Linden:	so where you sit when you click on an object...
[17:13]	Andrew Linden:	you should now tend to si much closer to where you actually clicked
[17:13]	Vincent Nacon:	you know how you'd see Z-fighting on the surface?
[17:13]	Vincent Nacon:	that is where they tend to jump
[17:13]	Kitto Flora:	I tried Sit one the special sims Andrew - did you read my comments?
[17:14]	Andrew Linden:	yes Vincent, and you've played with vehicles crossing prim seams/edges in Havok4?
[17:14]	Andrew Linden:	or are you just talking about Havok1?
[17:14]	Vincent Nacon:	no matter how perfectly line up you do... they jumps as a gap or bump
[17:14]	Les White:	both
[17:14]	Les White:	seems worse in h4
[17:14]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, the problem exists in both.
[17:14]	Vincent Nacon:	welll it happens in both
[17:14]	Vincent Nacon:	yeah
[17:14]	Andrew Linden:	No updates on that problem in the last... 1.5 months I'd say.
[17:14]	Les White:	psu cs119 is low lag sim on beta with a prim road for testing
[17:14]	Vincent Nacon:	alrighty
[17:14]	Kitto Flora:	I have this situation all over the pace and have never noticed such jumping.
[17:15]	Les White:	i've been running races here for 3 years.
[17:15]	Les White:	they jump :)
[17:15]	Les White:	i own 3 tracks. i see vehicles all day
[17:15]	Vincent Nacon:	then is it possible to give prim a rebound/damping range?
[17:15]	Vincent Nacon:	to soften the blows
[17:15]	Dahlia Trimble:	can there be a way that the speed that llMoveToTarget can be more consistant? and also it's usable distance increased?
[17:15]	Les White:	yes. seems like it could use something just like that
[17:16]	Andrew Linden:	the problem is how the physics engine reports the normals at edge collisions, and the response of the vehicle in the physics engine
[17:16]	Andrew Linden:	I've got some special magic in the vehicle code that tries to reduce the effect, but it is not perfect yet.
[17:16]	Kitto Flora:	Must be my vehicles all have some setting that mitigates this problem.
[17:16]	Andrew Linden:	I need to revisit that and make it better, but we've been avoiding vehicle bugs lately.
[17:16]	Les White:	speed, wheel prims. a few things
[17:17]	Vincent Nacon:	yeah that I've figured, may able to solve or work around by using a short damping range
[17:17]	Andrew Linden:	Vincent, perhaps you could give me some of your worst vehicles, and a suggested place to test them, in the preview.
[17:17]	Les White:	torus is worse. it can send you up and back when you are moving forward and hit an edge with the same Z
[17:17]	Andrew Linden:	That way I can use your problematic setup when testing my changes there.
[17:17]	JenzZa Misfit:	speaking of Sidewinder :)
[17:17]	Sidewinder Linden:	/hi andrew and all - sorry was waiting on the turnpike
[17:17]	Sidewinder Linden:	hi jenzza
[17:17]	Vincent Nacon:	heya SideWinder
[17:17]	Rex Cronon:	hi sidewinder
[17:17]	Sidewinder Linden:	hiya vincent
[17:17]	Kitto Flora:	Hi Sidewinder
[17:17]	Andrew Linden:	Sidewinder, Lee says that preview deploy is done. Did you blog about it?
[17:18]	Sidewinder Linden:	i didn't get the call, but i'll hit publish now ;)
[17:18]	Sidewinder Linden:	well.. in a minute
[17:18]	Andrew Linden:	His comment was at 17:00 exactly
[17:18]	Rex Cronon:	sidewidner, u have a blog about havok4?
[17:19]	Rex Cronon:	sidewinder*
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	No, just the main blog.
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, you say you tested the sitting behavior and made comments?
[17:19]	Kitto Flora:	Yes
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	Where are those comments to be found?
[17:19]	Kitto Flora:	Tuesda
[17:19]	Kitto Flora:	In your IM
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... I don't recall getting them.
[17:20]	Andrew Linden:	Could you summarize here? Good or bad?
[17:20]	Kitto Flora:	Good
[17:20]	Kitto Flora:	Sit seems better than MG to me
[17:20]	Andrew Linden:	Excellent. Thanks for trying it out.
[17:20]	Kitto Flora:	Never failed to get agood edge in range
[17:20]	Kitto Flora:	I dont like the < 3M or whatever it is
[17:20]	Kitto Flora:	Gotta walk or fly to get close :)
[17:20]	Andrew Linden:	There may be some problems when sitting on rounded surfaces or oddly slopped edges.
[17:21]	Sidewinder Linden:	k blog is posted
[17:21]	Kitto Flora:	I tried some weird stuff
[17:21]	Rex Cronon:	like sculpties?
[17:21]	Andrew Linden:	Huh? It isn't 3 meters is it? It should be 8 meters.
[17:21]	Andrew Linden:	Huh...
[17:21]	Kitto Flora:	Not sculpties
[17:21]	Kitto Flora:	Dont have any sculpties
[17:21]	Kitto Flora:	Humm..
[17:21]	Kitto Flora:	8M
[17:21]	Kitto Flora:	Maybe
[17:21]	Andrew Linden:	Well, I encourage everyone here to log onto Havok4 and try out the sitting behavior.
[17:22]	Vincent Nacon:	will do
[17:22]	Les White:	hehe
[17:22]	Kitto Flora:	I could not sit on top of tall walls without flying up
[17:22]	Les White:	sit in!
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	Feel free to send me your opinions, good and bad.
[17:22]	JenzZa Misfit:	noted
[17:22]	JenzZa Misfit:	bah .. I wish Val were here for this
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	And if you crash a simulator, definitely send me a message.
[17:22]	Kitto Flora:	The cross-sim-border sit on object still fails, as expected
[17:23]	Andrew Linden:	I'll be examining the machines for crash reports, but still a head's up would be nice.
[17:23]	Vincent Nacon:	I'm sure it would be fun to crash a sim with physic but..... I think I know one
[17:23]	Vincent Nacon:	Les Bike
[17:23]	Vincent Nacon:	muhahahaha!
[17:23]	Les White:	your hair :)
[17:23]	Rex Cronon:	i just hope that u can sit on an object outside of a cage when u r trapped in
[17:23]	Andrew Linden:	Ah yes, I hadn't got to the cross-region-border sit problem yet.
[17:23]	Kitto Flora:	The cross-sim-border sit on ground is slightly odd - you walk cross border, fly to target then just land and stand there, never sit
[17:23]	JenzZa Misfit:	Andrew .. do you know if you got to a crash exploit posted on the JIRA by Geuis Dassin ? hes been trying to get it recongized for weeks and I have seen it crash with absolute certainty ** on the main grid I mean ** a camera bug
[17:23]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... Rex that won't work much better in Havok4... sitting outside of cages
[17:24]	JenzZa Misfit:	if not .. contact him directly
[17:24]	Vincent Nacon:	I'm sure there still a problem when two bikes that has leaning effect, crushing other bike, causing the physic screw up
[17:24]	Les White:	interpolation deep think
[17:24]	Vincent Nacon:	the banking thing
[17:24]	Andrew Linden:	JenzZa, No I don't recall seeing that crash report.
[17:24]	Andrew Linden:	It is for crashing the simulator?
[17:24]	JenzZa Misfit:	wow its a big one
[17:24]	JenzZa Misfit:	it crashes a region .. yes
[17:24]	Andrew Linden:	Banking vehicles are broken, I know.
[17:25]	Kitto Flora:	JenzZa - is that crash in H4?
[17:25]	JenzZa Misfit:	no .. main grid
[17:25]	Andrew Linden:	Tell you what JenzZa... if he can crash a Havok4 simulator... he'll have my undivided attention.
[17:25]	JenzZa Misfit:	ok
[17:25]	JenzZa Misfit:	i will challenge him :)
[17:25]	Kitto Flora:	Thats why Andrew has not 'seen' it
[17:25]	JenzZa Misfit:	ok
[17:25]	Vincent Nacon:	well yes, it is broken... but then problem is, when it's not broken.. they still can cause a sim to crash in Havok 1 though
[17:26]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... maybe I should start to offer a bounty for Havok4 crash discoveries.
[17:26]	JenzZa Misfit:	good plan !
[17:26]	Vincent Nacon:	muhahahaha!
[17:26]	Kitto Flora:	Combien?
[17:26]	Andrew Linden:	We'll probably officialize some sort of bounty after Havok4 is actually deployed, I would guess.
[17:26]	Vincent Nacon:	alrighty, sound good
[17:27]	Rex Cronon:	there could be some people that might have found such things, but r waiting for havok4 to get to the main grid, so they can have some fun
[17:27]	Les White:	scary. having everyone trying to break it :)
[17:27]	Vincent Nacon:	yeah
[17:27]	JenzZa Misfit:	*heh*
[17:27]	Sidewinder Linden:	the good news is that it is now clean enough that the causes get more obvious...
[17:27]	Vincent Nacon:	best to do that before it reach to main grid
[17:27]	Sidewinder Linden:	thanks to andrew's completely tenacious focus on crash resolution ;)
[17:27]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew, what was that you were saying about Road problems?
[17:28]	Andrew Linden:	When vehicles (or any dynamic object actually) crosses the seams of a road, where one prim stops and another begins...
[17:28]	Kitto Flora:	Oh - same seam problem..
[17:28]	Andrew Linden:	the object will bounce at that seam, even though the net surface is flat
[17:28]	Andrew Linden:	the edge normals are picked up by the physics engine and the vehicle will bounce
[17:28]	Kitto Flora:	Weird - I have *never* seen this
[17:29]	Les White:	right
[17:29]	Andrew Linden:	in Havok4 the bounce is quite severe
[17:29]	Les White:	i have never seen india. it's there
[17:29]	Andrew Linden:	there is special code in vehicles that reduce it
[17:29]	Vincent Nacon:	did made a suggestion about wheel/motor damping param
[17:29]	Andrew Linden:	however, the vehicle magic is not enough to catch all cases
[17:29]	Andrew Linden:	It needs work.
[17:29]	Vincent Nacon:	aye
[17:30]	Vincent Nacon:	just want to see my car able to springs along the rough ground
[17:30]	Vincent Nacon:	oohh I dream of off road racing
[17:30]	Kitto Flora:	I have Steam engin, carriage, monorail, trolley car, swan, golf cart, a couple cars .. they all ate SLED type and run across abutted box prims. Never have I seen such a jump.
[17:30]	Andrew Linden:	One of the features I want to add shortly after Havok4 is done is better hover for vehicles...
[17:31]	Andrew Linden:	hover over objects, not just the terrain
[17:31]	Les White:	they are slow moving
[17:31]	Vincent Nacon:	ahh ok
[17:31]	Les White:	we are not makign this up o-o
[17:31]	Andrew Linden:	so springy cable car could use that feature
[17:31]	Vincent Nacon:	hmm
[17:31]	Vincent Nacon:	I dunno about thast
[17:31]	Vincent Nacon:	that*
[17:31]	Vincent Nacon:	what about motor drive?
[17:31]	Les White:	the faster something is moving the more the problem shows
[17:32]	Vincent Nacon:	as in a force source in the movement
[17:32]	Vincent Nacon:	instead of applying to the root of parent prim
[17:32]	Kitto Flora:	Hover over objects would be nice... I wrote some complex code a while back to deal with that
[17:32]	Les White:	one thing that is annoying and perhaps arbitrary is the 100m global hover height limit
[17:32]	Les White:	is this a limit of h1?
[17:32]	Andrew Linden:	The 100m global hover height has been fixed... I think.
[17:32]	Les White:	love
[17:32]	Andrew Linden:	in Havok4 anyway.
[17:32]	Les White melts
[17:33]	Sidewinder Linden:	what is the new limit?
[17:33]	Vincent Nacon:	unlimited or...?
[17:33]	JenzZa Misfit:	no kidding ?!?!?!??!
[17:33]	Les White:	should be inline with the rest aroun 700
[17:33]	Andrew Linden:	hrm..
[17:33]	JenzZa Misfit:	hmmm
[17:33]	Andrew Linden:	lemme check...
[17:33]	Sidewinder Linden:	les - new max height is 1024... not even 768 ;)
[17:33]	Les White:	i need to look up more :)
[17:33]	Kitto Flora:	Wow - now can have sail boats above the clouds
[17:33]	JenzZa Misfit:	wow
[17:33]	Vincent Nacon:	muhahahaha!
[17:33]	Sidewinder Linden:	although you might not see that with the current viewer, which has a height limit - the new simulator is enabled up to 1024
[17:33]	Andrew Linden:	yes, the new max height is 1024
[17:33]	Les White:	that's a good thing
[17:33]	Vincent Nacon:	clouds are at 200m
[17:34]	Vincent Nacon:	err 300m?
[17:34]	Vincent Nacon:	around there
[17:34]	Andrew Linden:	Maybe I should even bump that up... I recently changed things so that vehicles (with sitting avatars) can go up to 4096
[17:34]	Andrew Linden:	however objects cannot be rezzed higher than 1024
[17:34]	Vincent Nacon:	hmm
[17:34]	Les White:	right. cant set pos higher then that, but you can impulse up
[17:34]	Andrew Linden:	and if you get off the vehicle when it is high it will be pushed down to 1024
[17:34]	Rex Cronon:	so, i obj is at h=10, and u set its hoover height at 1000, how long will take to reach that height?
[17:34]	Kitto Flora:	ITIW - the SL Birtday guys set the sim water height at 300M !!! Result - clouds were in the water, and sailboats sank down 200M deep
[17:34]	Vincent Nacon:	oh one thing to make sure
[17:35]	Les White:	there is a damper for that
[17:35]	Les White:	it would depend on setting
[17:35]	Vincent Nacon:	if you going to have vehicle hover object, gotta make sure it can go in a loop
[17:35]	Andrew Linden:	I think the code will not push harder than 64 meter difference
[17:35]	Vincent Nacon:	like going upside down
[17:35]	Vincent Nacon:	or around the side based on local axis
[17:35]	Les White:	hmm
[17:35]	Andrew Linden:	so if it is trying to move from 0 to 1024... it will move as fast as if it were trying to go from 0 to 64
[17:36]	Andrew Linden:	er no.. I just cheked the code
[17:36]	Andrew Linden:	it has some other limit... it limits how hard the hover effect can push
[17:36]	Andrew Linden:	so the final speed is... dunno
[17:37]	Andrew Linden:	There was a request a few office hours ago for pseudo code for the llPushObject() effect
[17:37]	Andrew Linden:	I haven't forgotten, however I also haven't yet had time to do that
[17:37]	Andrew Linden:	I was thinking about trying to get to it today, but decided to try to close public jira items instead.
[17:38]	Sidewinder Linden:	when we're done with other things i have a few weapons questions...
[17:38]	Andrew Linden:	go ahead and ask them now Sidewinder
[17:38]	Vincent Nacon:	ahh I think I know what weapon youre gonna ask
[17:38]	Sidewinder Linden:	kk
[17:39]	Sidewinder Linden:	well it was really a more generic question... do any of you use weapons or are you familiar with them?
[17:39]	Sidewinder Linden:	of any sort
[17:39]	Kitto Flora:	I have alot
[17:39]	Sidewinder Linden:	"weapons" or "spells" ;)
[17:39]	Les White:	i make a couple
[17:39]	Kitto Flora:	tested many in H4
[17:39]	Sidewinder Linden:	cool
[17:39]	Vincent Nacon:	I dunno what weapon is (lie)
[17:39]	Rex Cronon:	i use them
[17:39]	Sidewinder Linden:	i am a bit concerned in that i've tried some that misbehave in some odd ways, and want to be sure that we're testing as many as possible on the beta preview before we go live
[17:39]	Rex Cronon:	actually i use my own
[17:39]	Sidewinder Linden:	kk
[17:40]	Vincent Nacon:	but thought you were going to ask about a orbitor that doesn't use push
[17:40]	Sidewinder Linden:	*smirk*
[17:40]	Vincent Nacon:	the physic glitch
[17:40]	Sidewinder Linden:	uhhuh
[17:40]	Les White:	the think with weapons...many are hacks and such to try and get around push limits
[17:40]	Sidewinder Linden:	it would be interesting to see what those do on h4 for what it's worth
[17:40]	Vincent Nacon:	is that fixed?
[17:40]	Les White:	i think weapons might be alost cuase with this update
[17:40]	Les White:	as long as base functions are working...let them sort new hacks
[17:40]	Sidewinder Linden:	well *this* version of the simulator code may do some odd things
[17:40]	Andrew Linden:	The orbiter for whacked shaped prim is fixed, I believe.
[17:40]	Sidewinder Linden:	but along with vehicles we'll do some weaopns work
[17:40]	Vincent Nacon:	good then
[17:40]	Sidewinder Linden:	*weapons
[17:41]	Rex Cronon:	there are some bullets that have over 1k push scirpts in them
[17:41]	Les White:	indeed
[17:41]	Sidewinder Linden:	*blinks* wow
[17:41]	Andrew Linden:	The push-in-no-push rezz-pusher still works... kinda
[17:41]	Vincent Nacon:	oy... fix that one
[17:41]	Sidewinder Linden:	in particular there's a behavior i've seen with some simple weapons and i'm wondering whether you've seen it
[17:41]	Kitto Flora:	All the weapons I tested are 'normal' ones, and they all seemed to work same as on H1
[17:42]	Sidewinder Linden:	even with the watermelon gun, when i pop a tester, on many occasions the avatar will go vertical instead of being pushed laterally... have you seen this in your testing?
[17:42]	Andrew Linden:	I think I know how to fix push-in-no-push, for most cases
[17:42]	Andrew Linden:	but haven't got to it yet
[17:42]	Les White:	oh, hmm
[17:42]	Sidewinder Linden:	that would be great andrew
[17:42]	Kitto Flora:	No live prey :(
[17:42]	Les White:	i havent done much killing on the beta
[17:42]	Les White:	busy later vince? heheh
[17:42]	Kitto Flora:	All my testing wsa on StandingMan
[17:42]	Sidewinder Linden:	ahh
[17:42]	Vincent Nacon:	muhahahaha!
[17:42]	Sidewinder Linden:	ok so here's an offer
[17:43]	Sidewinder Linden:	if you need prey i'd be happy to help out - have a test account or me or can find others... or you could work together ;)
[17:43]	Kitto Flora:	Owwww! We get to shoot Lindens??
[17:43]	Sidewinder Linden:	hehe
[17:43]	Sidewinder Linden:	sure...
[17:43]	Sidewinder Linden:	uhh but try it on the main Second Life system and my response might be "different" ;)
[17:43]	Les White:	so you think push object is funky
[17:43]	Sidewinder Linden:	mebbe
[17:43]	Sidewinder Linden:	not sure yet
[17:43]	Les White:	or collision with moving bullet type things?
[17:44]	Vincent Nacon:	maybe it's the reaction in the object when pushed?
[17:44]	Rex Cronon:	are u going to be on the beta, always?
[17:44]	Les White:	it's the mellonshape :)
[17:44]	Sidewinder Linden:	i guess what i'm really saying is "it feels like weaponry and associated things may not be as fully checked out as other things, and it would be great if we could spend some time seeing what works and what doesn't, rather than assuming that it's all ok"
[17:44]	Rex Cronon:	torley must have had something to do with that:)
[17:44]	Sidewinder Linden:	hehe
[17:45]	Sidewinder Linden:	yeah it has some code like "if havok4 do strange" :p
[17:45]	Sidewinder Linden:	kidding btw
[17:45]	Andrew Linden:	no, if (melon_shape) { do strange; }
[17:45]	Sidewinder Linden:	hehe
[17:45]	Day Oh:	Since you mention weaponry, do llSetBuoyancy(1.0) objects still slow until coming to a stop?
[17:45]	Day Oh:	I observed that a few months ago
[17:45]	Sidewinder Linden:	i'm not sure... do you know about that andrew?
[17:46]	Vincent Nacon:	more like "I'm in your Havok 4, making bumpies"
[17:46]	Andrew Linden:	not sure, could you elaborate on that? I'm not clear on the problem.
[17:46]	Day Oh:	On the main grid alot of bullets are using llSetBuoyancy(1.0) to become weightless, so they travel in a straight line and don't lose velocity
[17:46]	Andrew Linden:	oh... the fact that they would not keep going forever?
[17:46]	Day Oh:	Right
[17:46]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, I think that is fixed.
[17:47]	Day Oh:	Word :o
[17:47]	Sidewinder Linden:	so the other related category is shields
[17:47]	Vincent Nacon:	hmm collision event?
[17:48]	Sidewinder Linden:	has anyone tried shields and the various other things - like the mystitool hud and others that have offensive and defensive features?
[17:48]	Rex Cronon:	volume detect on attachments?
[17:48]	Andrew Linden:	There may still be some bugs in the collision event. There are certainly some bugs still open on that.
[17:48]	Vincent Nacon:	well there's one I did a testing that beg the differ
[17:48]	Andrew Linden:	Kelly Linden was looking into those bugs and I'm not fully up to date on their status.
[17:48]	Andrew Linden:	Volume Detect on attachments... still broken I think.
[17:48]	Vincent Nacon:	but never finished it because it was when No-push was featured in
[17:49]	Vincent Nacon:	and that is... people were using sphere for shield but I found that Twisted sphere had better results
[17:50]	Vincent Nacon:	because of the frame speed passing the bounding box I believe
[17:50]	Vincent Nacon:	or something
[17:50]	Vincent Nacon:	been a long while since I had done testing with shield... like over a year ago
[17:50]	Kitto Flora is no shield expert
[17:50]	Sidewinder Linden:	ok... well that's another category of things that would be nice to check out on h4
[17:51]	Les White:	i dont think you have any big weapon players here today :/
[17:51]	Sidewinder Linden:	btw i'd be happy to schedule a little weapons testing party if you guys would like to
[17:51]	Sidewinder Linden:	true
[17:51]	Les White:	they hide from lindens :)
[17:51]	Sidewinder Linden:	i'm also getting in touch with them... but just wanted to check
[17:51]	Vincent Nacon:	muhahahaha!
[17:51]	Sidewinder Linden:	hehe
[17:51]	Rex Cronon:	when?
[17:51]	Sidewinder Linden:	i'm out of town tomorrow (fri) through monday night
[17:51]	Sidewinder Linden:	but if you have some ideas we could get together and try some things
[17:51]	Sidewinder Linden:	have any of you gotten really up to speed on the omicron hud?
[17:52]	Les White:	no me
[17:52]	Vincent Nacon:	no idea what thatis
[17:52]	Sidewinder Linden:	i just picked one upa dn haven't really figured some of it out yet... it's used a lot in combat sims from what i can tell
[17:52]	Sidewinder Linden:	it has a lot of aggressive and defensive tools
[17:52]	Sidewinder Linden:	orbiters and trappers and such
[17:52]	Vincent Nacon:	oh it may be a sensor picking up the velocity and direction path
[17:53]	Kitto Flora:	need some com battys to get involved :)
[17:53]	Les White:	i would love a way to turn off others attached scripts in my sim to get rid of those lag pit huds...but that is another meeting :)
[17:53]	Sidewinder Linden:	true -does anyone know some of the heavies in that area?
[17:53]	Rex Cronon:	u can break them les:)
[17:53]	Kitto Flora:	llSetAttchedScriptLimit(int)
[17:54]	Day Oh:	So it seems you're focused on Havok4, Andrew?
[17:54]	Les White:	it's amazing that a single avatar can walk into a sim and melt it with these huds. drop it to .5 time dil free and easy
[17:54]	Les White:	really need a meter on that
[17:54]	Vincent Nacon:	with BLINGS
[17:54]	Vincent Nacon:	:/
[17:54]	Sidewinder Linden:	day - yes this is the havok4 office hours - taht's the project that we are working on
[17:55]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, I'm only working on Havok4 atm.
[17:55]	Kitto Flora:	I have clocked Avs with 2000 attached scripts and > 500uS/frame
[17:55]	Omicron Llewellyn:	wow
[17:55]	Sidewinder Linden:	*blinks*
[17:55]	Sidewinder Linden:	wow
[17:55]	Vincent Nacon:	oh hmm one sec
[17:55]	Day Oh:	Oh :D I actually dropped in 'cause of Andrew's user page on the wiki, mentioned anti-griefing, and I wanted to discuss estate tools
[17:55]	Vincent Nacon:	I know there was something that Francis Chung wanted to ask
[17:55]	Les White:	yes. it's a real problem. (but wrong meet)
[17:55]	Andrew Linden:	Oh sure Day Oh. The topics are open
[17:56]	Andrew Linden:	and that is something else that I tend to work in.
[17:56]	Sidewinder Linden:	day - i'm actually involved with a project in that area - if you want to talk afterward i'd be happy to...
[17:56]	Day Oh:	Sure
[17:56]	Andrew Linden:	However, I won't be able to actually do much development there, since I'm so involved in Havok4
[17:56]	Andrew Linden:	and the project is way overdue.
[17:56]	Vincent Nacon:	by 3 years
[17:56]	Les White:	focus! :)
[17:56]	Day Oh:	:D
[17:57]	Andrew Linden:	Only 3? I thought it was more than that ;-)
[17:57]	Sidewinder Linden:	heh
[17:57]	Vincent Nacon:	well Havok 1 wasn't really outdated in 3 years ago
[17:57]	Vincent Nacon:	err actually... longer than that
[17:57]	Vincent Nacon:	n/m
[17:57]	Sidewinder Linden:	one question that it would be great to think about, as you're working with this build, is "are we getting close to a simulator that works well enough to deploy for "real use" with regions that do not use vehicles?"
[17:57]	Andrew Linden:	If the grief modes are through physics (and maybe scripts) I may be able to attack them in the Havok4 project.
[17:57]	Les White:	I'm just glad it's on the table and at work.
[17:58]	Moundsa Mayo:	How much of a concern are rotating physical objects that work in HAVOK1 but didn't in the previous HAVOK4 refresh?
[17:58]	Andrew Linden:	No concern. We would focus harder at getting Havok4 out.
[17:58]	Vincent Nacon:	ahh can't find it what Francis wanted to know
[17:58]	Andrew Linden:	Francis was aking perhaps about getting his vehicle region on the preview?
[17:58]	Andrew Linden:	We had it up for a while
[17:59]	Andrew Linden:	but mostly for vehicle testing.
[17:59]	Vincent Nacon:	I think it was something about bandwidth or netowkr
[17:59]	Vincent Nacon:	network*
[17:59]	Andrew Linden:	Oh
[17:59]	Vincent Nacon:	500 something
[17:59]	Andrew Linden:	That is probably something we need to look at a little more carefully.
[17:59]	Andrew Linden:	If Havok4 increases the bandwidth for object updates we'll probably have to fix that sooner rather than later.
[18:01]	Vincent Nacon:	not sure if that was it
[18:01]	Kitto Flora:	How to test that?
[18:01]	Andrew Linden:	Any other questions? The office hour is about up.
[18:01]	Les White:	thanks for your time Andrew and Sidewinder
[18:01]	Andrew Linden:	Day Oh. Did you have aything you wanted to raise?
[18:01]	Vincent Nacon:	ahh how about Joystick control input?
[18:01]	Andrew Linden:	Re grief modes and possible solutions?
[18:01]	Omicron Llewellyn:	so the priority is scripted items, not simple physical occurances
[18:01]	Les White:	i'm going to forward you a folder with a couple test "bouncy" vehicles and landmark Andrew
[18:01]	Rex Cronon:	i kind of have a question
[18:02]	Sidewinder Linden:	what do you mean by simple physical occurences omicron?
[18:02]	Andrew Linden:	Ok Les. I'll probably get back to fixing vehicles next week sometime.
[18:02]	Omicron Llewellyn:	dropping masses, fulcrums
[18:02]	Les White:	thanks guys :)
[18:02]	Moundsa Mayo:	Chaos Machines
[18:02]	Andrew Linden:	Joystick input control won't be until Havok4 is done.
[18:02]	Omicron Llewellyn:	ive got a simple device that works under 1 and not 4
[18:02]	Day Oh:	Actually I have one particular grief mode in mind, but was gonna try to use that to open up discussion on a bunch of problems with the estate tools {:
[18:02]	Andrew Linden:	There have been some code changes in Havok4 that make it easier to do, though.
[18:03]	Rex Cronon:	can either u andrew, or sidewinder, make a group havok4, so who is interested in havok4 can become a member of, and communicate more easily with others that are interested?
[18:03]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... yeah I can't really do much about the Estate Tools atm, Day Oh.
[18:03]	Andrew Linden:	Day Oh, if Robin Linden holds office hours you should raise them with her.
[18:03]	Kitto Flora:	Can we have more groups? I keep maxing out
[18:03]	Sidewinder Linden:	omicron - please file a bug on that... it's not that we're ignoring that type of problem. vehicles and related issues are to be done after the basics thought, since not all regions need vehicles to work correctly
[18:03]	Vincent Nacon:	that's not havok 4 issue
[18:03]	Vincent Nacon:	:P
[18:04]	Day Oh nods
[18:04]	Andrew Linden:	She's leading a little anti-grief committee that has yet to really get started.
[18:04]	Omicron Llewellyn:	ill do that
[18:04]	Andrew Linden:	I'm in the group.
[18:04]	Omicron Llewellyn:	ty
[18:04]	Day Oh:	I'll check it out then (:
[18:04]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, well I'm going to head out then.
[18:05]	Andrew Linden:	thank you all for coming
[18:05]	Kitto Flora:	Byebye Andrew
[18:05]	Vincent Nacon:	alrighty then, I'm off to try the beta grid before kids takes over