User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2008 01 15

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[11:01]	Redux Decosta:	hi andrew
[11:02]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	lolwut Squirrel?
[11:02]	Crimson Cataract:	interesting
[11:02]	Redux Decosta:	squirrels talkin swedish again
[11:02]	Crimson Cataract:	lol
[11:02]	Squirrel Wood:	finnish
[11:02]	Arawn Spitteler wonders if Andrew is old enough to remember the ScrewDriver Effect
[11:02]	Redux Decosta:	oh snap
[11:02]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Heya Andrew
[11:02]	Redux Decosta:	andrew's one of the original SL accounts
[11:02]	Crimson Cataract:	remember when simborders were stable enough to fly across the grod?
[11:02]	Crimson Cataract:	lol
[11:03]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	lol
[11:03]	Crimson Cataract:	*grid
[11:03]	Redux Decosta:	sim borders were never stable enough to fly across the grid.
[11:03]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Remember when you had to fly across the grid to get anywhere? lol telehubs
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	In some ways I'm a total SL newbie.
[11:03]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Redux: Before your time
[11:03]	Crimson Cataract:	xD
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	Is it possible to mute the sound from a particular object?
[11:03]	Crimson Cataract:	been in sl since late 03
[11:03]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Err
[11:03]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	What object?>
[11:03]	Squirrel Wood:	should be possible
[11:04]	Squirrel Wood:	right-click => mute
[11:04]	Kitto Flora:	Hello
[11:04]	Andrew Linden:	Oh, nevermind. I know what to do.
[11:04]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Ah, the water annoying?
[11:04]	Redux Decosta:	a lot of things are before my time ryo
[11:04]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Heya Day
[11:05]	Redux Decosta:	remember when there werent any sculpties?
[11:05]	Day Oh:	Hi :D
[11:05]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	That wasn't that long ago, dork
[11:05]	Redux Decosta:	i....
[11:05]	Redux Decosta:	oh... i drink a lot... <_<;;;
[11:05]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew needs to try making a living in SL :)
[11:05]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	lol
[11:05]	Redux Decosta:	remember when havok4 wasnt on the entire grid yet?
[11:05]	Redux Decosta:	crap me neither
[11:05]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I wouldn;t wish that on anyone, lol
[11:05]	Redux Decosta:	i already forgot stuff that hasnt happened yet
[11:05]	Crimson Cataract:	lool
[11:05]	Redux Decosta:	thats how bad my memory is
[11:05]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Might turn into Redux, or worse yet, me
[11:06]	Ryozu Yamamoto shivers/
[11:06]	Redux Decosta:	your memory cant be worse than mine, whoever you are
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	ok, let me just start off with a quick update about where Havok4 is...
[11:06]	Kitto Flora remebers when there was only 1/4 of one continent, and you could only TP to TeleHubs
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	I just filed a new QA request for an updated version, which has some nice bug fixes
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	There are a couple of mass properties bugs in the current deployed Havok4, but they are all fixed.
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	I'm pretty confident in that code now since my unit tests pass.
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	I've also fixed a bunch of vehicle bugs
[11:08]	Crimson Cataract:	nice
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	I expect most vehicles to work better.
[11:08]	Kitto Flora:	Is that new fixes since the current(new) deploy?
[11:08]	Crimson Cataract:	they still explode on borders?
[11:08]	Crimson Cataract:	lol
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	There is currently an asset corruption bug in Havok4...
[11:09]	Simon Linden:	Interesting to put the meeting table right at the TP point :)
[11:09]	Redux Decosta:	for some reason standing on the table makes you explode
[11:09]	Redux Decosta:	i havnet figured that out yet
[11:09]	Arawn Spitteler wonders if that's why the inventory won't cough up his swivel chair
[11:09]	Redux Decosta:	didnt want people fussin they coudlnt find it
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	if you rez a vehicle in Havok4 and then take to inventory again, or cross a region boundary into a Havok1 region then the new asset may not work right in a Havok1 simulator
[11:09]	Crimson Cataract:	odd
[11:09]	Owen Oyen:	Is there both Havok 4 and Havok 1 currently on Beta
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	the good news is that the next update of Havok4 will fix the broken assets again, so you could fix them by rezzing them in a fixed Havok4 region and taking back to inventory.
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, I think there are a few Havok1 regions on the beta
[11:10]	Owen Oyen:	k
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	Fame, Fortuna, and Freelon
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	There are a few other things in this coming update...
[11:11]	Owen Oyen:	I submitted a test observation report to Sidewinder at the end of the weekend. A number of fixes to sailboat vehicles have been implemented and look much better than pre Jan 11, but there remain some serious problems.
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	Simon has tweaked the RCCS (Runtime Collision Constrol System) to provide better performance in some high lag situations
[11:12]	Simon Linden:	Andrew - I don't think that fix made it into the version we pushed
[11:12]	Squirrel Wood:	Hmm... I should try testing my roller coaster again
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	Simon, I'm talking about the next update which has not yet been deployed, but should be this week.
[11:13]	Kitto Flora:	Todays Beta H4 sims still have very high CPU load for any vehicle.
[11:13]	Simon Linden:	ah, yes, the next update will definitely have improvements
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	I just filed the QA request for it, so the timeline for delivery is probably going to be at least a day, maybe two.
[11:13]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Heya Sai
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, there is a performance problem with vehicles. I haven't been able to get to that one yet, but will before the end of this week.
[11:13]	Kitto Flora:	I sure hope so. Present H4 sim works ok, but is of little practical use because of the high physics loading
[11:14]	Redux Decosta:	ive noticed i bounce up and down when i stand still on prims now
[11:14]	Saijanai Dagger:	hey all multitasking. If I had my python bot working this would be much less laggy I think
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	I believe the avatar bouncing problem is fixed in the next update.
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	It was caused by a bad inertia tensor on the avatar. Simon fixed it.
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	ok, one other announcement...
[11:15]	Redux Decosta:	ah ok, sidewinder wanted me to bring that up because he had thought it was fixed alreayd
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	I promised a while ago to provide some pseudo code for the llPushObject() implementation
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	and I'm almost done writing it
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	I expect to get it up on the wiki sometime today
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	but probably not much before the end of day for me.
[11:16]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I'm sure Seifert will appreciate that, he said he was having some inconsistency with his transporters
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, that's all the announcements I had. Anyone else?
[11:16]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I'm sure Seifert will appreciate that, he said he was having some inconsistency with his transporters
[11:16]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Err, whoops
[11:16]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I'm happy to report that with hard landing mode fixed, things are working a LOT better on my end.
[11:17]	Redux Decosta:	likewise, i havent been thrown haphazardly across the sim in days!
[11:17]	Owen Oyen:	I can briefly repeat what I submitted to sidewinder. Straight line boat speed for identical conditions has been moved to within 2% of main grid values
[11:17]	Arawn Spitteler notes that the failure of STATUS_ROTATE_Z was fixed, in Beta GRid, when he sent a project to Andrew
[11:17]	Owen Oyen:	and turn response of boat vehicles has ceased its jerkines at end of turn, which existed pre Jan 11
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	that's good to hear Owen. Maybe Francis Chung's cars driving speeds are also fixed
[11:17]	Owen Oyen:	I think not
[11:17]	Crimson Cataract:	about he only thing ive observed in h4 that concerns me is how it messes with the bounding boxes of objects
[11:17]	Owen Oyen:	because
[11:17]	Squirrel Wood:	So is this here a H1 sim or a H4 one ?
[11:18]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	h4
[11:18]	Tower Of Terror Rezzer whispers: Done.
[11:18]	Owen Oyen:	a car is thrown into the sky from being in contact with terrain. This is currently the very worst of all symptoms we observe in sailing community. A boat hitting the ground is tossed into the sky
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	Crimson, the bounding box stuff is a "big project" to fix right
[11:18]	Crimson Cataract:	it can freak out on some complex shapes and cause some strange effects
[11:18]	Sidewinder Linden:	right.. owen that is not only sailboats...
[11:19]	Crimson Cataract:	i think one was already turned in
[11:19]	Sidewinder Linden:	andrew and simon - is that likely somewhat better with the upcoming build?
[11:19]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Also, void sim, so keep in mind 1/4th normal performance
[11:19]	Crimson Cataract:	it made a persistant contact point
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	No Sidewinder, I expect that to still be a problem.
[11:19]	Owen Oyen:	nod, we confirmed that with some other vehicles. But though that is a spectacular problem, thumbs up to you guys for getting vehicle velocity performance down to only 2% faster than main grid, vs its 20% excess pre Jan 11
[11:20]	Redux Decosta:	whoa, when did stackheap collisions stop reporting?
[11:20]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Did they?
[11:20]	Redux Decosta just caused one
[11:20]	Redux Decosta:	sorry maybe off topic
[11:20]	Squirrel Wood:	yep... llSetStatus(STATUS_ROTATE_X|STATUS_ROTATE_Y|STATUS_ROTATE_Z,FALSE); has no effect
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	? stack heap collisions?
[11:21]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Owen: Excess? Cars had been going too slow for a while
[11:21]	Redux Decosta:	it didnt halt the script either, just reset it
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, the STATUS_ROTATE feature is currently broken in Havok4, but fixed in the next update.
[11:21]	Arawn Spitteler thought he saw if fixed, in Beta Mocha
[11:21]	Owen Oyen:	No, my observations are that a sailboat vehicle, with carefully repeated tests, going straight line with identical wind, pre Jan 11, was about 20% faster than Main Grid performance. Not slower. Faster. That has been "improved" with the Jan 11 deploy
[11:22]	Arawn Spitteler:	It's a significant point
[11:22]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	WIll the AV speed limits be changed next update, or has there not yet been a consensus on what they should be?
[11:22]	Sidewinder Linden:	ahh owen - but that is in "water", which is not quite the same as a ground vehicle on terrain
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	Ryozu, no I haven't revisited that yet. But I intend to do so soon.
[11:22]	Owen Oyen:	nod
[11:22]	Owen Oyen:	k
[11:22]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Ah, yeah
[11:22]	Sidewinder Linden:	from an internals perspective
[11:22]	Andrew Linden:	We had a number of really high priority bugs recently.
[11:22]	Squirrel Wood:	Aye... avatar speed limits are... ugh.
[11:23]	Day Oh:	Oh, I noticed the max speed for objects was decreased to 240 from 250, or something like that, but you can rez them at 250... they just rapidly slow to 240
[11:23]	Owen Oyen:	a potentially significant thing . . . and maybe for vehicles too. An avatar sitting on an object will yield an object mass = to the avatar's alone. Very large vehicles with large mass have their mass decreased down to avatar mass. Possibly serious issue
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	Uh... there isn't much effective difference between 240 and 250 is there?
[11:24]	Day Oh:	Dunno myself :D
[11:24]	Andrew Linden:	Owen that mass problem is fixed in the next update.
[11:24]	Owen Oyen:	okies
[11:24]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Depends on how good a coder you are, heh
[11:24]	Owen Oyen:	will that mass change affect the collision results just discussed. You expect the collision issues to still be serious, but does the mass change affect them
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	I guess what I mean is... if you're moving at 250 m/sec... you'll cross the region in a second, which isn't really a naviable speed given the rate of streaming data updates, frame rendering, and region crossing costs.
[11:26]	Squirrel Wood:	for x/y yes. but for z it makes sense
[11:26]	SignpostMarv Martin:	If you're travelling fast enough, should the system not "skip" a region ?
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	yes Owen. The mass fixes make vehicles move along the ground better again, however I suspect the collision issues are probably more related to the RCCS than the mass of the object...
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	hrm... well maybe ot
[11:26]	Squirrel Wood:	I hate how it takes several seconds to get up to 700m+
[11:26]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Sure, if all you consider is Sustained speed
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	maybe not
[11:26]	Sidewinder Linden:	that's an interesting idea signpost
[11:26]	Day Oh:	I'm not sure about avatars, I was only looking at objects. In particular, projectiles
[11:26]	Owen Oyen:	nod
[11:27]	Sidewinder Linden:	although signpost, then the projectile/combat case would break ... hmmm
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	There is a risk of instability for larger objects... the inertia tensor is so small that the object may collide and rotate into a really fast spin on contact
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	so there is a possibility that the mass fix will make some vehicles less problematic on collisions
[11:27]	Crimson Cataract:	ive already found a case of that
[11:28]	Andrew Linden:	The instability mode comes from the fact that that the leverage arm from collision effects is very large, but the inertia tensor is too small
[11:28]	Owen Oyen:	nod, our observations are of both large and small objects, they generally rotate very very fast, and there is a jitter of sorts before the 26 meter long yacht is flung into the sky haha but smaller boats too. No matter, we will measure the new deploy
[11:29]	Crimson Cataract:	heh
[11:29]	Andrew Linden:	Ok then, sounds like the mass fixes will solve some problems here. The jitter is to be expected for an instability of this sort
[11:29]	Crimson Cataract:	ive noticed though
[11:30]	Crimson Cataract:	smaller objects spinning at the same speed as larger objects seem to go in slow motion
[11:30]	Crimson Cataract:	and move of their own accord
[11:30]	Sidewinder Linden:	can you clarify that a bit more crimson?
[11:30]	Sidewinder Linden:	go when pushed?
[11:30]	Owen Oyen:	nod, my only last comment is favorable, perhaps relevant to aircraft as well as boats. Thumbs up on lateral motion (friction?) when boats turn. 20-30 meter leeway (skids) are all but gone. There is still some skid in excess of Main Grid but far less. You guys did improve itat
[11:30]	Sidewinder Linden:	move when floating in mid-air?
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	Uh... Crimson how do you know the objects are actually spinning at the same speed?
[11:30]	Sidewinder Linden:	thanks owen
[11:31]	Crimson Cataract:	they start in one direction and just keep moving in slo motion, i can show you a coupel examples of weird things i found
[11:31]	Crimson Cataract:	*couple
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	I suspect the small objects really are spinning faster.
[11:31]	Crimson Cataract:	yeah but its like they have almost no enerrgy
[11:31]	Sidewinder Linden:	owen, is it reasonable to think that if the collision with terrain problem is handled, the havok4 simulator is getting close enough for general use for sailing in the near term?
[11:31]	Crimson Cataract:	but if i enlarge the object it flings itself offworld
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	however, it isn't clear to me what the details of this particular scenario are
[11:32]	Sidewinder Linden:	crimson - can you log a jira with steps to reproduce and a script? that would be really helpful
[11:32]	Sidewinder Linden:	please mark it component "physics" and affects version "havok4 beta" so we see it asap
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	best if you can copy the script into the jira
[11:33]	Crimson Cataract:	eh, if one of you could take it i would be happy to show you
[11:33]	Crimson Cataract:	im a bit weary of jira
[11:33]	Crimson Cataract:	not a big fan of it :/
[11:33]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Hehe, it won't bite
[11:33]	Saijanai Dagger:	so when are you guys going to start using scripted avatars to test this stuff?
[11:33]	Owen Oyen:	I would say . . . tentatively . . . close, but not quite smoking cigar yet. You have llSetLinkPrimitiveParams disabled in those sims right now and many boats use that for avatar motion during boat heel. Also, there is still something amiss in X and Y axis rotation. The stiffness of steering before is fixed, and well done, but X, Y stiffness remains and wave simulation looks far worse than on Main grid. So close, much closer than you were, but not quite yet
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	Wow Owen, sounds like you're really paying attention to the details
[11:35]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	The vehicle community is like that =)
[11:35]	Owen Oyen:	the sailing community are fanatics Andrew. If I don't do this, they will all kill me
[11:35]	Logan Park grins
[11:35]	Owen Oyen:	haha
[11:35]	Andrew Linden:	That reminds me of something... post Havok4 it might be possible to make a very special "sailboat vehicle"
[11:35]	Crimson Cataract:	lol
[11:35]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Heya Dahlia
[11:35]	Owen Oyen:	oh?
[11:35]	Andrew Linden:	Here's the deal...
[11:35]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Who's bot?
[11:36]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Hehe
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	The vehicle feature is what I call a scripted Action... it is basically a class that derives from the Havok class hkAction()
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	it has an ::apply() method that is called every physics timestep
[11:36]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	It's runnin away from yah Dahlia
[11:36]	Redux Decosta:	thats the 7th time ryo's accused someone of being a bot today... he must be learning libsl this week
[11:36]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	>_>
[11:36]	Day Oh:	XD
[11:37]	Day Oh:	pwned
[11:37]	Andrew Linden:	I've already got a notion to try to make a special airplane Action that uses lift/stallspeed/etc for airplanes
[11:37]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	3rd time, but at least this timeI was right
[11:37]	Squirrel Wood:	bots eat bolts and screws and stuff like that...
[11:37]	Andrew Linden:	and it could also be done for sailboats
[11:38]	Andrew Linden:	however, this would not get done until Havok4 is finished, and by "finished" i mean merged back into the main branch
[11:38]	Andrew Linden:	such that all LL developers are using it
[11:38]	Owen Oyen:	can you enable llsetlinkprimitiveparams again. All catamarans have avs lean way out over the side when the boat tilts and they are not not doing that. Are there plans to fix?
[11:39]	Saijanai Dagger:	Andrew, will we see such possibilites for bots?
[11:39]	Saijanai Dagger:	There's plenty of use-cases for scripted avatars with special features
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	What I would really like to do is to provide a way for Residents to perhaps write the LLSpecialAction::apply() method, and define the LSL API
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	and then I would help them implement it
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	but at the moment this is just an idea. Sailboats may be a good candidate for such a project.
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	Moving on... I just remembered another item I wanted to talk about...
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	LLVolumeDetect... has some subtleties
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	and I was wondering if any of you are very familiar with that feature
[11:41]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Moderatly
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	I was hoping I could ask some questions, before I go digging deep into the code
[11:41]	Dahlia Trimble:	a little
[11:41]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Lex would probably know a lot more
[11:41]	Kitto Flora:	I use VolumeDetect
[11:41]	Arawn Spitteler has read of that feature, and wishes phantoms didn' thave to be linked to phantoms
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	Is it possible (do you know how) to get an object with the volume detect feature, but still have it collidable?
[11:42]	Kitto Flora:	I think not
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	And if so... what are the details of how that changes the start_collision() and end_collision() callbacks?
[11:42]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Hmm, not that I know of, volume detect always meant to me that it was forced phantom
[11:42]	Kitto Flora:	llVolumeDetect makes the object 'special phantom' and as such it does not trip collision.
[11:43]	Dahlia Trimble:	collision detection on phantom non-physical only gives you colllision start and end events
[11:43]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	collision in a physics sense anyways
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, I was curious if anyone knew how to game it, or hack it so that it was collidable.
[11:43]	Crimson Cataract:	i miss having a volume detect av sheild x.x
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	We found some evidence recently that it might be possible, and I was wondering if anyone was consciously using that "misfeature" to make content.
[11:43]	Kitto Flora:	I never found a way, but did not look hard.
[11:43]	Crimson Cataract:	and its a bit more than dissappointing that jira intentds to "fix" radar avoid
[11:43]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	It may be the case, but not that I know of
[11:43]	Dahlia Trimble:	lol they probably will now
[11:44]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Crimson x_x Don't get me started on that
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	Crimson, ah yes, were you the one claiming that VolumeDetect works on attachments in Havok1?
[11:44]	Crimson Cataract:	gets on my nerves that people are too lazy to script a sensor array with get object details to sense avs
[11:44]	Kitto Flora:	The colision events have what I think is a bug - they are tripped for every frame by a vehicle. Very spammy.
[11:45]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Crimson, name one good reason why you should be within chat range but not picked up by a chat range sensor?
[11:45]	Squirrel Wood:	your last name ends in Linden ;)
[11:45]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, I think the collision() events are supposed to be continually called when collisions are happening
[11:45]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	XD
[11:45]	Crimson Cataract:	so im not greifed by some jackass with a brand new $5000 hud
[11:45]	Andrew Linden:	What would be the "correct" behavior in your mind?
[11:45]	Chair: Press Page Up to move chair up, or Page Down to move chair down
[11:45]	Kitto Flora:	colission_start???
[11:46]	Crimson Cataract:	who feels it their god given right to ream me into next tursday
[11:46]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Not a good exscuse for inconsistent scripted behavior
[11:46]	Kitto Flora:	colision_start should only happen when a vehicle fist intersect the vol detect object
[11:46]	Crimson Cataract:	it also saves mehaving to file an abuse report that WILL get ignored because im not premium
[11:47]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	More than a little jaded, aren't we?
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	Kitto, this collison_start() callback is on which object? The vehicle or the vol detect object?
[11:47]	Sidewinder Linden:	crimson... can we please stay on topic here for havok4 office hours? :)
[11:47]	Kitto Flora:	This is fun. Am I sitting in Andrews lap?
[11:47]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Sorry, I kind of egged that on, I'll shut up ^_^
[11:47]	Arawn Spitteler:	yes
[11:47]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	It would appear so Kitto
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	yes. Which chair did you click on?
[11:47]	Crimson Cataract:	yeah after livehelp dies, or better yet after i verified myself and then the floodgates opened im a bit more than annoyed with things crumbling around me
[11:48]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew - its on an object on the track that the engine vehicle hits.
[11:48]	Kitto Flora giges ucle Andrew a big hug.
[11:48]	Crimson Cataract:	sorry ^.^;
[11:48]	Chair: Press Page Up to move chair up, or Page Down to move chair down
[11:48]	Redux Decosta:	i ssomething in SL dinging or am i losing my mind?
[11:48]	Andrew Linden:	Ding!
[11:48]	Redux Decosta:	im' lookin all over the house for this crazy dinging noise
[11:48]	SignpostMarv Martin:	i thought it was my phone :-P
[11:48]	Sidewinder Linden:	what a question ;)
[11:48]	Squirrel Wood:	Your mind is on its way out ;)
[11:48]	Owen Oyen:	/Andrew, you may have missed my question above. llSetLinkPrimitiveParams seems to be a disabled function in the H4 sims on Beta right now. Can that be restored?
[11:48]	Kitto Flora:	I got no idea how I got over there
[11:48]	Crimson Cataract:	back on topic, i have the object if anyone is interested in disecting it
[11:49]	SignpostMarv Martin:	speaking of llSetLinkPrimitiveParms(),
[11:49]	Redux Decosta:	we have rules about that kind of thing now
[11:49]	SignpostMarv Martin is waiting for prim face glow to be enabled as a parameter set
[11:49]	Andrew Linden:	Sorry Owen, yes I missed that question. Sounds like a bug, so yes it should be fixed.
[11:49]	Owen Oyen:	nod
[11:49]	Andrew Linden:	I don't think I've seen that jira item yet. Is it in the public jira list yet?
[11:49]	Sidewinder Linden:	owen - do we have a jira on that one yet? if not, could you log it?
[11:49]	Owen Oyen:	I can.
[11:49]	Squirrel Wood:	there definitely is a jira on it somewhere
[11:50]	Owen Oyen:	I doubt it is there
[11:50]	Owen Oyen:	it was broken for a time on Main, and fixed, but noticed recently on Beta
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	Squirrel says yes, so we should search for it first.
[11:50]	Owen Oyen:	k
[11:50]	Arawn Spitteler wonders how to search Jira, but that's another Office Hour.
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	Oh... Owen, this isn't necessarily a Havok4-specific bug?
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	Sometimes we pick up bugs from the main codebase
[11:51]	Squirrel Wood:	VWR-3114
[11:51]	Squirrel Wood:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-3114
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	The Havok4 project merges from the main codease every few weeks these days.
[11:51]	Owen Oyen:	this bug at one time existed in main. It WAS fixed in main. It now exists on Beta H4 sims. It is NOT in main now
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	A VWR bug?
[11:51]	Squirrel Wood:	no
[11:51]	Squirrel Wood:	that's glow scriptable
[11:52]	Sidewinder Linden:	k guys.. could we please stay a bit closer to the tracks.. this is not a windlight meeting :)
[11:52]	Crimson Cataract:	lol...
[11:53]	Owen Oyen:	/anyway if you can get setlinkprimitiveparams restored to H4 Beta, some catamaran people will be less worried
[11:53]	Sidewinder Linden:	i see a number of bugs related to llSetLinkPrimitiveParams, but not one that says it's disabled...
[11:53]	Simon Linden:	hey folks - I have to run ... thanks to everyone for coming
[11:53]	Crimson Cataract:	well im offering a possible bug but im not getting any takers :P
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	ok owen. I'm mostly focused on the incoming bug list. I try to make sure to focus on a few of the bugs mentioned here in the office hour each week, but it definitely helps to have something in jira
[11:54]	Owen Oyen:	hmm, let me back up here, we see One Aspect of this problem, in that Avatars cannot move, maybe that is partial failure, rather than full
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	if I happen to see it in the big list I'll try to single it out for some attention
[11:54]	Owen Oyen:	A rare symptom, and I know we're almost timed out
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	oh... you can't move the sittting position of the avatar with the llSetLinkPrimitiveParams() call? Is that the symptom?
[11:55]	Owen Oyen:	when two boats are racing and collide at the same time they cross a sim, they rez in the next sim interconnected and the race is messed up. When you guys do your new collision stuff, any idea of how this symptom will change, if at all
[11:56]	Andrew Linden:	Owen, that may be difficult to fix... not sure
[11:56]	Crimson Cataract:	sounds nasty
[11:56]	Arawn Spitteler thinks two interposing boats would expell
[11:56]	Sidewinder Linden:	they rez interconnected?
[11:56]	Kitto Flora:	Thats the same problem that prevents 'trains' crossing sim borders
[11:56]	Andrew Linden:	It certainly isn't on the list of things I was hoping to get done yet
[11:57]	Kitto Flora:	They rez 'interpenetrating'
[11:57]	Owen Oyen:	it's somewhat rare so it doesn't generate a ton of upset. But when it happens, the boat drivers have to edit them apart and that sort of corrupts the "fairness" of the race
[11:57]	Arawn Spitteler has done that in NCI Tube Race
[11:57]	Sidewinder Linden:	yup
[11:57]	Sidewinder Linden:	well just to set expectations, in order to get havok4 out
[11:57]	Sidewinder Linden:	we are trying to first get reasonable parity with havok1
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	Well... they should expell in a sane way... the object penetration resolution code of Havok4 isn't the smartest algorithm yet.
[11:58]	Sidewinder Linden:	some things that didn't work in havok1, may not get fixed at first in h4
[11:58]	Owen Oyen:	understood, and the community will understand too
[11:58]	Sidewinder Linden:	at the same time, if that happens and they get pulled apart in a really bad way we could takea look at it
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	Well... in this case in Havok1 the penetrating objects would just pass through each other
[11:58]	Sidewinder Linden:	i think it depends on the speicific case
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	until they stopped penetrating
[11:58]	Sidewinder Linden:	it sounds like they end up interlinked - owen?
[11:58]	Kitto Flora:	No Andrew
[11:58]	Owen Oyen:	actually, when they appear in new sim, they are stuck together. Only editing them apart undoes it
[11:59]	Kitto Flora:	In H1 usually one or both interpenetrating object is forced non-physical
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	?!! Really?
[11:59]	Sidewinder Linden:	ahh and when you say editing apart - it's a matter of "moving pieces", not that they have become linked, right?
[11:59]	Kitto Flora:	and is thus killed as a vehicle
[11:59]	Dahlia Trimble:	linked as a single object?
[11:59]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	It just turns physical off
[11:59]	Sidewinder Linden:	wow
[11:59]	Sidewinder Linden:	hmmm
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	uh... that sounds like a horrible terrible no good very bad bug
[11:59]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Havok1, any time a vehicle interpenetrates something, physical gets turned off
[11:59]	Sidewinder Linden:	hahahaha
[11:59]	Kitto Flora:	NOt LInked. They are set non-phys.
[11:59]	Owen Oyen:	I think I know what you guys are asking, is there now a single object linked. No, I would say not. A simple edit seperates them, not one link at a time.
[11:59]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	On the other hand
[12:00]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Havok4 allows setting physical on penetrating objects
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	oh good. Whew!
[12:00]	Sidewinder Linden:	ok but if there is a bug that converts physical to non-physical that's a different issue
[12:00]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	Whereas Havok1 does not
[12:00]	Owen Oyen:	well
[12:00]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	That may be a solution for you Oyen
[12:00]	Owen Oyen:	haha no
[12:00]	Kitto Flora:	Andrew - that has been a major H1 problem since sim-border-crossing was updated a year or so back
[12:00]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	lol
[12:00]	Owen Oyen:	I think they are still physical cuz they still move like vehicles.
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	Oooh. You're talking about the emergency mini-deepthink smackdown code
[12:01]	Sidewinder Linden:	owen, do you think it's possible to demonstrate this behavior? is it possible to try it on the beta preview and see if you can trigger it with the havok4 simulator?
[12:01]	Owen Oyen:	Pls do not let me distract from bigger probs. This is on H1 too. Just passing it along
[12:01]	Second Life:	Your object 'office hours moved to "Content to Hover" region' has been returned to your inventory lost and found folder by Governor Linden from parcel 'Brampton Linden Stage' at Brampton 108.68, 152.924 due to parcel auto return.
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	That is a problem in Havok1. The mini deepthink emergency code doesn't exist in Havok4.
[12:01]	Sidewinder Linden:	kk
[12:01]	Owen Oyen:	we can try to make it happen and take some pictures of it. It is rare, but not hugely rare
[12:01]	Ryozu Yamamoto:	I'd say, wait and see
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	However... there are other theoretical problems in Havok4.
[12:02]	Kitto Flora:	Can you actually run 2 boats well in H4? Must be a class 6 or 7 simulator?
[12:02]	Sidewinder Linden:	ok - i'd wait for the next deploy before trying that... sounds like it shouldn't happen... but "shouldn't" is why we're here ;)
[12:02]	Sidewinder Linden:	kitto... :p
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	The two objects should be pushed apart on penetration, perhaps violently
[12:02]	Sidewinder Linden:	hehe
[12:02]	Owen Oyen:	Kitto, we do fleet races of 10 boats
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	it may be that catamarans may end up tangled
[12:02]	Kitto Flora:	Owne: In H4?? Current build?
[12:02]	Sidewinder Linden:	on hosts running 4 regions per cpu even kitto ;)
[12:02]	Kitto Flora:	Owne: In H4?? Current build?
[12:03]	Owen Oyen:	they are not Andrew, if they are bumping coming across the sim, they will interconnect in the new sim and sail happlily on until edit freezes them to drag apart
[12:03]	Owen Oyen:	no matter, bigger fish to fry for you guys
[12:03]	Andrew Linden:	ok, well looks like the hour is up
[12:03]	Andrew Linden:	thank you all for coming
[12:03]	Andrew Linden:	I hope to get an update out in a few days.
[12:04]	Day Oh:	Thanks for having us, Havok4 is looking awesome
[12:04]	Sidewinder Linden:	thanks all... great work... all the testing and jira's are really helping to get this clean
[12:04]	Arawn Spitteler promised to append, to previous llTeleportAgent discussion, the possibility of Objects sending Teleports
[12:04]	Owen Oyen:	thanx for the chance to provide input and thanx for the water sims in which to do testing
[12:04]	Sidewinder Linden:	yw owen
[12:04]	Squirrel Wood:	I know that H1 can handle two, maybe three of my roller coaster carts.... H4 I have yet to get them to work properly :p