User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2008 03 20

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[17:05]	Areth Gall:	Hm. Rats. My memory isn't as good as it used to be. I must be getting old. And if that's true.. I don't even wanna see what things will be like when I get OLLLLD
[17:05]	Tegg Bode:	Hi :)
[17:05]	Areth Gall:	Welcome Drew of An.
[17:06]	Gaius Goodliffe:	You'll be just as forgetful, but you'll blame it on your age, because you'll have forgotten how forgetful you were when you were younger.
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	Hi everybody. Sorry I'm late, but was having technical difficulties loggin in.
[17:06]	Sidewinder Linden:	hi guys
[17:06]	Areth Gall:	Yay. I'll have my own built in scapegoat.
[17:06]	Gaius Goodliffe nods.
[17:06]	Areth Gall:	Right now, I'm just everyone else's scapegoat.
[17:06]	Areth Gall:	Welcome.
[17:06]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Hehe
[17:07]	Andrew Linden:	although to tell you the truth, this is one of those days where, if I hadn't set an alarm on my cell phone I would have totally forgotten to show up here.
[17:07]	Tsuno Soyinka:	Do I need to turn voice on?
[17:07]	Areth Gall:	Ah. Well, my cellphone died a few days ago. So at least you still have that :P
[17:07]	Andrew Linden:	No, we only use type-chat
[17:07]	Sidewinder Linden:	no tsuno - we use text for these
[17:07]	Tsuno Soyinka:	Thank you.
[17:07]	Andrew Linden:	so I can save the transcripts as text.
[17:08]	Areth Gall:	They upload the transcripts onto a log-page after the meetings.
[17:08]	Sidewinder Linden:	someone turned up the frame rate on today "way too high" :)
[17:08]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Heh.
[17:08]	Andrew Linden:	Hey Sidewinder, do you want to go first on any announcements/updates?
[17:08]	Sidewinder Linden:	well...
[17:08]	Sidewinder Linden:	we just deployed a new build to the early adopters
[17:09]	Cinthya Loveless:	just today?
[17:09]	Sidewinder Linden:	it seems that that went pretty smoothly, at least based on blog comments
[17:09]	Sidewinder Linden:	our work has continued, and we are working towards a public release, but the exact schedule has not yet been set
[17:09]	Andrew Linden:	"just deployed"... you mean this week? I forget when things were actually deployed where
[17:09]	Sidewinder Linden:	the beta preview was set up last week
[17:09]	Tegg Bode:	Lol, you still have your head after putting it in the blog cage :) :)
[17:10]	Cinthya Loveless:	I've need no blog posts about the update going to the adopters
[17:10]	Sidewinder Linden:	we just deployed to the 549? early adopters on second life yesterday
[17:10]	Sidewinder Linden:	rofl tegg
[17:10]	Cinthya Loveless:	not a new one anyways
[17:10]	Cinthya Loveless:	not since like a week
[17:10]	Sidewinder Linden:	so we have another set of good fixes in the pipeline, and hope to have that on the preview soon
[17:10]	Sidewinder Linden:	we are at the moment held up a bit to coordinate with a fix for the 1.19.2 server deploy that didn't go so smoothly last night
[17:11]	Sidewinder Linden:	once that's resolved we can get our new fixes out -they're the ones i blogged about and maybe a few extra since we have a little more time waiting ;)
[17:11]	Sidewinder Linden:	for those who've been asking "so when?"... the answer is "really soon now" but the exact date is being figured out
[17:11]	Cinthya Loveless:	I've noticed that since the recent server updates in my H4 islands I've had to reset them a few times to get my residents scripts and animations working
[17:11]	Sidewinder Linden:	really?
[17:12]	Cinthya Loveless:	yes
[17:12]	Sidewinder Linden:	hmmmm
[17:12]	Sidewinder Linden:	and after resets they work better?
[17:12]	Cinthya Loveless:	after the restart everything worked fine
[17:12]	Sidewinder Linden:	meaning after the latest update they worked, or you had to restart a few times after that update for things to work?
[17:13]	Cinthya Loveless:	This started like monday so im not sure whats cuasing it but its only been in my H4 islands
[17:13]	Sidewinder Linden:	hmm
[17:13]	Sidewinder Linden:	i guess we should talk about this offline... not sure what would be causing that
[17:13]	Sidewinder Linden:	if it's particular scripts it would be good to see a few samples
[17:13]	Sidewinder Linden:	creem - did you have your hand up?
[17:14]	Creem Pye:	ah no, I was testing a problem that I reported last week regarding land collisions
[17:14]	Creem Pye:	it's working fine now =)
[17:14]	Sidewinder Linden:	hahahah ok sowwy :)
[17:14]	Sidewinder Linden:	that's all i have... more news soon as they say
[17:15]	Sidewinder Linden:	are there other notable issues that have shown up since the last update last night?
[17:15]	Andrew Linden:	any of the estate managers for this region here today?
[17:15]	Scalar Tardis:	looks like you just fixed my big one, llMovetoTarget being too weak to hold up big objects. it didn't work a few days about but the huge paddle behind us is holding up fine here
[17:16]	Sidewinder Linden:	cool
[17:16]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Yup. My sky castle elevators are working fine now, too, so it looks licked to me.
[17:16]	Andrew Linden:	really? the elevators are working? Huh... Dan Linden reopened the bug on that a while ago
[17:16]	Andrew Linden:	and I hadn't been able to get back to it
[17:17]	Cinthya Loveless:	I don't think any estate admins are here form this place
[17:17]	Gaius Goodliffe:	That one might be about different elevators.
[17:17]	Sidewinder Linden:	someone else with an elevator problem reported that they were better in this build as well..
[17:17]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Or maybe it broke again... I'll retest.
[17:17]	Sidewinder Linden:	heh
[17:17]	Cinthya Loveless:	I had an elevator problem too
[17:18]	Cinthya Loveless:	the elevators in my office stoped working soon as the island was conveted to H4
[17:18]	Sidewinder Linden:	do they work now cinthya, or are they still not working?
[17:18]	Cinthya Loveless:	they were physics elevators
[17:18]	Cinthya Loveless:	Im going to have to test now
[17:18]	Cinthya Loveless:	since the update is on
[17:19]	Sidewinder Linden:	oh i guess i do have one more thing
[17:19]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Mine was just due to llMoveToTarget being too weak to lift them. They started working right a couple updates back (although I'll recheck they're still working after this).
[17:19]	Sidewinder Linden:	i could, actually we all could, *really* use yourhelp in going through the jira's on the public jira and cleaning out the ones that are resolved
[17:19]	Rex Cronon:	hello everybody
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	btw, thank you to some who have been closing some of the bugs assigned to me as they are closed.
[17:20]	Sidewinder Linden:	i've been walking through them as i can, and in some cases i've left them open even though we have an internal fix
[17:20]	Andrew Linden:	er... as they have been fixed.
[17:20]	Sidewinder Linden:	b/c i've assumed that the reporter should verify the fix
[17:20]	Rex Cronon:	is it hard or what to login today. took 3-5 tries and 5 minutes to get here
[17:20]	Gaius Goodliffe nods.
[17:20]	Creem Pye:	the Windlight viewer team closed all of the Windlight FL JIra tickets soon after it moved from FL to RC status; perhaps something like that would be useful for H4 as well?
[17:20]	Sidewinder Linden:	<- had enough time to go get a diet coke.. even happens to us :)
[17:20]	Andrew Linden:	Right, there really isn't much good in closing bugs early when they are fixed internally. People still comment on them as if they aren't fixed yet... because they are not as far as they can tell.
[17:21]	Sidewinder Linden:	yes creem - i noticdthat and was wondering whether to do that
[17:21]	Tsuno Soyinka:	Would someone IM me an explanation of jira?
[17:21]	Scalar Tardis:	yes, I showed the llMoveToTarget flopping to the ground to someone just days ago. Make the prim to big, and splat. it's working in this sim, but this is new to me tonight
[17:21]	Sidewinder Linden:	i think andrew's point is very valid - it's really up to the reporter to conclude "this is fixed as i meant it to be fixed"
[17:21]	Sidewinder Linden:	but for bugs taht are really blatantly resolved i'll close those as i can
[17:21]	Creem Pye:	as long as people understand the reason you're closing a Jira entry, it shoudln't backfire too badly =)
[17:21]	Sidewinder Linden:	yup
[17:22]	Sidewinder Linden:	well in any case- any help you can lend is time that we can spend on bug hunting instead of bug administration - it's very appreciated :)
[17:22]	Areth Gall:	I have to wonder. What will the new energy-replenishment to mass ratio be for Havok 4? I believe for havok 1, it was 200 energy units per mass unit per second?
[17:23]	Andrew Linden:	I'm not worried about terrible backfires... I just find the comments and changes made by confused participants a minor burden. I get the emails when comments are made.
[17:23]	Arawn Spitteler:	I recall lslwiki gives a limit of 800 pounds, to llMoveTo, but I haven't used it much.
[17:23]	Andrew Linden:	Areth, I had set it to 250 for a while, but it is back to 200 again.
[17:23]	Areth Gall:	Ah. I never checked that, but good to know :P
[17:24]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Pounds?
[17:24]	Arawn Spitteler:	A mentor feature, allowing a mentor to look over your shoulder, when doing stuff, in and out of world, might be handy.
[17:24]	Sidewinder Linden:	speaking of which.. i'm trying to get some time to put together a "havok4 specs" page - any suggestions would be great - just send me a notecard with ideas for what you think shoiuld be on it
[17:24]	Arawn Spitteler:	A lot of mentors could then help with a lot of jiras
[17:24]	Areth Gall:	In the United States, we use Pounds for weight. The rest of the world uses Kilograms. But SL hasn't defined a unit of weight (even though it uses Metric acceleration for gravity)
[17:25]	Andrew Linden:	So... I entered a bug today, and closed it for "won't fix". Check out SVC-1880... especially if you have a vehicle that turns slowly (sometimes) in Havok4.
[17:25]	Creem Pye:	not lindograms? :)
[17:25]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I thought they were "lindograms" :)
[17:25]	Tsuno Soyinka:	AUM's are used. Arbitrary Unit of Measurement.
[17:25]	Areth Gall:	I'd call it the hamster myself :P
[17:25]	Tsuno Soyinka:	lol
[17:25]	Andrew Linden:	Sidewinder, what do you mean by "Havok4 specs"? You mean details on how Havok4 has changed from Havok1?
[17:26]	Sidewinder Linden:	hmm what's the mass equivalent of a smoot?
[17:26]	Areth Gall:	How do we check out fixes, such as SVC-1880?
[17:26]	Scalar Tardis:	umm, I don't know that a weight would have any meaning, since meters on here don't conform to real-world meters.
[17:26]	Sidewinder Linden:	things lke gravitational constant, energy refill rate - the sorts of "speeds and feeds" things that folks have asked about in office hours
[17:26]	Sidewinder Linden:	max and min's
[17:26]	Arawn Spitteler recalls that a Smoot is a unit of Circumference
[17:26]	Sidewinder Linden:	hover height... things like that
[17:26]	Sidewinder Linden:	length actually :)
[17:26]	Tsuno Soyinka:	Very good!
[17:27]	Arawn Spitteler:	Oh, Sidewinder means there should be actual specs for Physics?
[17:27]	Andrew Linden:	ok Sidewinder, I gotcha
[17:27]	Andrew Linden:	most of those shouldn't change, but some did
[17:27]	Sidewinder Linden:	many builders have asked for this, and i've noticed that we don't seem to have it all in one place... so it'll be a mini-project to do this together
[17:27]	Tegg Bode:	Hmm but refering to a real worls weight I guess might help people visualise 3000 Lindograms is the weight of an empty light truck
[17:27]	Sidewinder Linden:	hehe
[17:28]	Sidewinder Linden:	umm i do have a behavior question, not to get to real work or anything :)
[17:28]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Unfortunately, the masses of objects in SL bear no apparent relation to anything...
[17:28]	Andrew Linden:	sigh... the mass units in the LSL interface are just wrong... but can't be changed, alas.
[17:28]	Sidewinder Linden:	i've noticed that hover with hover attachments still seems to be sometimes odd, and there is this new jira by mystical cookie... http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1792
[17:28]	Tegg Bode:	I may one day though on Havok 10 :)
[17:28]	Sidewinder Linden:	have others seen this problem?
[17:28]	Arawn Spitteler:	I've a teeter totter, that's impacted by weight
[17:28]	Sidewinder Linden:	i thought it had been resolved
[17:29]	Andrew Linden:	The only way to fix it is to make an entirely new LSL-3 that uses a different API and mass units.
[17:29]	Sidewinder Linden:	"Mono will fix everything" ;) (joke!)
[17:29]	Areth Gall:	Actually, I've seen that problem with the vehicle bouyancy in Havok 1.
[17:29]	Creem Pye:	does LSL2 prevent us from having different densities for different prim material types, Andrew?
[17:29]	Areth Gall:	But that could be because I'm special. :P
[17:30]	Arawn Spitteler:	I saw a Jira, mentioning that, if a person sat on a prim, he'd be treated as a link to that object, even if the prim was moved. Would the person have to be moved by the root prim?
[17:30]	Tegg Bode:	Yes the material types may mean more one day than just the sound a prim makes when hit :)
[17:30]	Creem Pye:	he can be moved with llSetLinkPrimitiveparams, arawn
[17:31]	Andrew Linden:	Creem it isn't LSL2 so much as the founding code in the simulator... and existing content... and the UI required to allow per-prim or even per-material densities
[17:31]	Scalar Tardis:	BTW, is it okay if I pull text from the forums and dev list to put in the wiki? Andrew posted many tidbits over the years and I don't know if it's okay to be appropriating it
[17:31]	McCabe Maxsted:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1657 add it to the LSL3 list
[17:31]	Areth Gall:	He would move if the object moves and/or if the prim he is on moves.
[17:31]	Andrew Linden:	however, since Havok4 is such a major cleanup it will go a long way toward making stuff like that possible
[17:31]	Arawn Spitteler:	He can be moved with llSetLinkPos(), but does that have to be from the root prim, or his seati prim?
[17:32]	Creem Pye:	hmm yeah I guess the only way to introduce different material densities without breaking existing content would be to create new material types...
[17:32]	Sidewinder Linden:	andrew and simon - should we have the bouyancy discussion outside the meeting i guess?
[17:32]	Andrew Linden:	Sure Scalar, that content is free to move to the wiki, I think.
[17:32]	Sidewinder Linden:	mystical's bug?
[17:32]	Creem Pye:	I think child prims can move it him too <Awarn
[17:32]	Andrew Linden:	You can also take info from these office hour transcripts and move them to the wiki.
[17:33]	Andrew Linden:	er... they are already in the wiki, but you can re-sort the info
[17:33]	Arawn Spitteler:	We'll have to run some tests, on who and how to move a sitting avatar
[17:33]	Andrew Linden:	what buoyancy discussion Sidewinder?
[17:33]	Andrew Linden:	vehicles or llSetBuoyancy() or both?
[17:33]	Simon Linden:	I'm also not sure what you mean
[17:33]	Sidewinder Linden:	llSetBouyancy
[17:33]	Andrew Linden:	I don't have any problem with hashing it out here.
[17:34]	Sidewinder Linden:	seems the mystitool (which i guess uses that) is not holding altitude
[17:34]	Andrew Linden:	That bug SVC-1792 was created March 8th
[17:34]	Sidewinder Linden:	seems that we've worked that issue a few times... wondering if the solution is in conflict with some other fix?
[17:34]	Sidewinder Linden:	true but updated today "This bug still exists in Havok4 build 1.19.1.82411 deployed today."
[17:34]	Andrew Linden:	My guess is that it is actually fixed already. But we'll have to verify.
[17:35]	Andrew Linden:	Ah yes, so it was.
[17:35]	Sidewinder Linden:	did we have some fixes on this after that version?
[17:35]	Sidewinder Linden:	(build from last week)
[17:35]	SSA-1901 Lakehurst r1: Welcome aboard, Gaius Goodliffe. You are now the pilot.
[17:35]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, so it is a bug. The attachment/avatar interface is very buggy and complicated
[17:35]	SSA-1901 Lakehurst r1: Have a nice day, Gaius Goodliffe!
[17:35]	Andrew Linden:	I think Simon would back me up on that one ;-)
[17:35]	Andrew Linden:	We'll look into it.
[17:36]	Simon Linden:	Hmm, the stuff I did on script energy might affect it ... yes, Andrew, especially the 'buggy and complicated' part :)
[17:36]	Andrew Linden:	er... the attachment/avatar interface is fragile and complicated
[17:36]	Sidewinder Linden:	i'll import that one then
[17:36]	Areth Gall:	Is there a bug number for the deacceleration of rotational velocity without any outside forces or collisions acting on the object?
[17:37]	Andrew Linden:	Areth, no I don't think I've seen a bug for that one.
[17:37]	Andrew Linden:	You'll have to enter it. I think you were the one with the measured data on that one.
[17:37]	Areth Gall:	Yeps. Alright.
[17:37]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Did you get a change to look at unassisted flight at high altitudes?
[17:37]	Gaius Goodliffe:	*chance
[17:38]	Andrew Linden:	Not yet Gaius
[17:38]	Areth Gall:	Sorry. I'm new on how to report all of this stuff.
[17:38]	Tsuno Soyinka:	Me too.
[17:38]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Get thee to jira.secondlife.com :)
[17:38]	Sidewinder Linden:	is that svc-1856 gauis
[17:38]	Areth Gall:	Alright. I am creating the issue now
[17:39]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Yes.
[17:39]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Feel free to ignore Mercia's comments. :p
[17:39]	Andrew Linden:	No worries. Just pretend I'm way to busy to be able to stay on top of all the bugs I should be. Then remember that the public jira is available to all SL Residents to add/comment/close and otherwise change bugs.
[17:39]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Hehe
[17:40]	Simon Linden:	fwiw I just did a brief test of MystiTool, flying at 400m and it seems to hold altitude fine
[17:40]	Sidewinder Linden:	hmm
[17:40]	Sidewinder Linden:	i've seen it work fine, and then not work fine - esp at high altitudes...
[17:41]	Sidewinder Linden:	we should talk to mystical (she's the maker of mystitool and the bug reporter)
[17:41]	Simon Linden:	How high is high?
[17:41]	Cinthya Loveless:	so I know I asked this before but are the avatar floating off the ground in the plans to be fixed ? I know its visual bug but its very annoying http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1520
[17:41]	Andrew Linden:	cynthia, you're talking about the standing avatar floating a little bit above the ground right?
[17:41]	Arawn Spitteler:	We could all wear shoes
[17:42]	Tsuno Soyinka:	Hehe.
[17:42]	Cinthya Loveless:	yes Andrew
[17:42]	Tsuno Soyinka:	Today I noticed some bugs in the client Debug menu.
[17:42]	Sidewinder Linden:	that's cool - debug bugs...
[17:42]	Andrew Linden:	Cynthia, do you think that bug should prevent the Havok4 project from being declared "done"?
[17:43]	Andrew Linden:	That is, is it a blocker?
[17:43]	Cinthya Loveless:	yes I do its very annoying
[17:43]	Sidewinder Linden:	well to further explain - is it somethign that has to be resolved before deploying to the whole second life system, or would it be ok to fix after that?
[17:43]	Gaius Goodliffe eeps.
[17:43]	Gaius Goodliffe notices his "Client" menu has been renamed "Advanced".
[17:43]	Cinthya Loveless:	if it doesn't get done before H4 is rolled out Its going to get tossed on the shelf im afrade and never be fixed
[17:44]	Andrew Linden:	I ask because we're focusing on the blockers right now.
[17:44]	Simon Linden:	Cinthya - the two images in that bug report look correct - the first oneGaius - yes, other folks are working on the viewer and trying to make it easier to use
[17:44]	Sidewinder Linden:	i guess i have two questions...
[17:44]	Andrew Linden:	But we plan on actively fixing Havok4 bugs for weeks after it is deployed.
[17:44]	Simon Linden:	oops, sorry, delete didn't fully work there... ignore that, Cinthya
[17:44]	McCabe Maxsted:	anything that affecs how builders will create content, in this case, say, shoes, should be fixed before implemeneted gridwide
[17:44]	Sidewinder Linden:	andrew - is that one likely to be tricky to resolve? does it get us into increasing the collision density because of reduced tolerance or something like that?
[17:45]	McCabe Maxsted:	*me spells good hehe
[17:45]	Andrew Linden:	No, not tricky in that sense Sidewinder.
[17:45]	Sidewinder Linden:	ok
[17:45]	Creem Pye:	perhaps changing the default animation offsets would compensate?
[17:45]	Sidewinder Linden:	cinthya - what we are doing is triaging in a couple of ways
[17:45]	Sidewinder Linden:	1) which bugs MUST be fixed before deploying to second life as a whole
[17:45]	Sidewinder Linden:	mostly,
[17:46]	Sidewinder Linden:	that's based on things that would cause people to write scripts "around" bad behavior, thus
[17:46]	Sidewinder Linden:	creating legacy content that would prevent a fix
[17:46]	Sidewinder Linden:	or for broken content of crashes
[17:46]	Sidewinder Linden:	this one doesn't seem to be in that category to me....
[17:46]	Sidewinder Linden:	and 2)
[17:46]	Sidewinder Linden:	bugs that should be fixed shortly after deploy
[17:46]	Sidewinder Linden:	these are things that are important but don't really prevent widespread use
[17:46]	Sidewinder Linden:	and then
[17:46]	Andrew Linden:	Not everyone would put the floating standing avatar bug in the blocker pile, but I was curious to know what Cinthya and anyone else thinks.
[17:47]	Sidewinder Linden:	3) the ones that can go into "normal maintenance" as part of general upkeep
[17:47]	Sidewinder Linden:	agred
[17:47]	Sidewinder Linden:	agreed
[17:47]	Cinthya Loveless:	I know and thats why Im Im worryed it won't get fixed if its not fixed now since its not "important"
[17:47]	Tsuno Soyinka:	I haven't noticed this floating thing. Partly cause I down m graphics so much.
[17:47]	Andrew Linden:	BTW, one way to raise the priority of a bug is to be very vocal about it... within limits ;-)
[17:47]	Arawn Spitteler:	Is it a matter of collisions, as a stopper, would be?
[17:47]	Sidewinder Linden:	btw as part of this discussion... what we are balancing this against is that the havok4-based simulator has now been demonstrated in real use to dramatically reduce crash rates... and crashes we can eliminate by deploying a more stable simulator means
[17:48]	Sidewinder Linden:	less lost content through rollbacks
[17:48]	Sidewinder Linden:	so there are competing goals
[17:48]	Sidewinder Linden:	"make it great"
[17:48]	Sidewinder Linden:	and
[17:48]	Sidewinder Linden:	"get more stability and reduce content loss"
[17:48]	Cinthya Loveless:	lol Andrew I've been trying
[17:48]	Tsuno Soyinka:	Is it after teleporting or while walking?
[17:48]	Scalar Tardis:	is the physics collision boundary the same for prims in H4? I recall seeing that it is different.
[17:49]	Cinthya Loveless:	so if its not fixed before its officaly rolled out to the grid when will it be fixed?
[17:49]	Creem Pye:	ah it's true that you can see Rex's feet hovering 15cm or so above the ground if you set your camera at the right angle
[17:49]	Sidewinder Linden:	it seems to me we could make that one to do while we're still doing cleanup just after deploy... (because i wouldn't want it to always be that way either)
[17:49]	Andrew Linden:	The avatar foot problem is partially exacerbated by the fact that the client should be doing some foot collision tests to place the feet right, for the final few centimeters
[17:49]	Sidewinder Linden:	we are counting on several weeks of cleanup and fixes after the full deploy
[17:49]	Tsuno Soyinka:	ooh yeahh.. look at that!
[17:49]	Areth Gall:	Posted. You can find it as VWR-5751
[17:49]	Rex Cronon:	nice. i am full of air?
[17:50]	Sidewinder Linden:	so what we are doing is collecting ideas on which things really need to be taken care of in that pile of work
[17:50]	Andrew Linden:	while th avatar feet floating above the ground is annoying... the avatar feet too far below the ground is even worse
[17:50]	Arawn Spitteler:	I'm haveing a hard time focusinig, what's the height of my feet?
[17:50]	Andrew Linden:	looks like about 5 cm Arawn
[17:50]	McCabe Maxsted:	would organizing them in a meta issue help?
[17:50]	Simon Linden:	You're floating slightly above the table
[17:51]	Cinthya Loveless:	yes I agree it would be alot worse to be sincking into the ground but each has its own annoyances
[17:51]	Creem Pye:	only 3cm or so, arawn =)
[17:51]	Scalar Tardis:	this cube I set physical
[17:51]	Scalar Tardis:	it matches the height of his feet
[17:51]	Arawn Spitteler:	It would break a lot of content, since shoes are designed to cut off the heel, rather than reach the ground
[17:51]	Tsuno Soyinka:	I'm trying to check whether it is the same height for attachments or not.
[17:51]	Rex Cronon:	maybe if u take off you paws would be easier to see how high the feet
[17:52]	Cinthya Loveless:	Arawn look at this http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1520 its got pics
[17:52]	Scalar Tardis:	if the collision boundary is thicker in H4, that would be your cause of "floating"
[17:52]	Tsuno Soyinka:	It appears that I have no hover problem on the ground.
[17:52]	Creem Pye:	fortunately those types of camera angles aren't too common in day-to-day stuff =)
[17:53]	Andrew Linden:	we already do some "magic hackery" to try to get the avatar feet to line up with the surface better than dynamic objects do
[17:53]	Tsuno Soyinka:	Just on prims there is an issue.
[17:53]	Areth Gall:	Hey. I gotta go check on dinner and make sure my mom is up for work. If I'm not back before we adjourn, take care, and have a good night, everyone.
[17:53]	Andrew Linden:	not all objects are created equal, and the avatar is definitely a special case in the codebase
[17:53]	Rex Cronon:	bye areth
[17:53]	Sidewinder Linden:	see you areth - thanks for stopping in
[17:53]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Gotta love the magic hackery... didn't avatar collision shape change a couple months ago for H4? Might that have an effect on this?
[17:53]	Areth Gall:	Also, sorry for being a pain in your fleshie human tush, Andrew.
[17:53]	Iexo Bethune:	Mind if I have a seat?
[17:53]	Simon Linden:	Bye Areth
[17:53]	Sidewinder Linden:	heh go ahead lexo
[17:53]	Andrew Linden:	No worries Areth. Take it easy.
[17:54]	Simon Linden:	Iexo - no, just click and get in
[17:54]	Sidewinder Linden:	there's more where that came from
[17:54]	Cinthya Loveless:	yes I would think its complicated with all of the different avatar hights and shapes
[17:54]	Iexo Bethune:	Thank you.
[17:55]	Sidewinder Linden:	one of the reasons i would like to get the pjira entries sorted out is that we could all see more easily which isues are still really open - to make priority decisions more easily (not to umm beat a dead horse as they say)
[17:55]	Scalar Tardis:	that gap there... is that really necessary? why can't the collision boundary be the actual object boundary?
[17:55]	Scalar Tardis:	i don't understand it at all
[17:56]	Andrew Linden:	Scalar, that gap is a "feature" of the Havok physics engine
[17:56]	Areth Gall:	Fall into the gap!
[17:56]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Actually, couldn't the collision shape be shrunk slightly to eliminate the gap?
[17:56]	Andrew Linden:	they use that tolerance to avoid penetrations, since penetrations are special cases for thier engine
[17:56]	Scalar Tardis:	if that gap is bigger in H4, it's going to break much of my physics content
[17:56]	Rex Cronon:	i think that 0.1m is too much
[17:57]	Andrew Linden:	No, the simple idea that comes to mind is to just make the boxes a little smaller in the physics engine
[17:57]	Gaius Goodliffe nods.
[17:57]	Andrew Linden:	such that they actually line up when they collide
[17:57]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Exactly.
[17:57]	Areth Gall:	The other problem that could be created is if an avatar is really deep inside of an object. For thin floors, you might be really deep just by stepping on it, which would cause the floor to stop colliding with your avatar.. and let you fall through.
[17:57]	Areth Gall:	If you don't have a tolerance large enough, that might reintroduce that bug.
[17:57]	Andrew Linden:	as it turns out... we're a lot closer to making that a real possiblity once havok4 is out
[17:58]	Sidewinder Linden:	andrew - maybe we reduce the physical size of an object only if it is above some minimum size - to avoid teh thin floor disappearing physically problem?
[17:58]	Andrew Linden:	one of the blockers for that trick was that we used to ask the physics engine for the mass properties of objects
[17:58]	Andrew Linden:	and if we shrunk the objects... then all the masses would change
[17:58]	Sidewinder Linden:	heh oh right :)
[17:58]	Sidewinder Linden:	eek - no - no more mass bugs! :)
[17:58]	Andrew Linden:	however, I'm proud to say that we now compute our own mass properties
[17:58]	Andrew Linden:	now, there are a few other problems that have to be solved first...
[17:59]	Gaius Goodliffe:	You could computer mass based on visual size, while keep the "physical" size smaller.
[17:59]	Gaius Goodliffe:	*compute
[17:59]	Andrew Linden:	(1) some build tools that rely on collision queries to line up object surfaces
[17:59]	Andrew Linden:	(2) some complications when shrinking hollow, cut, twisted geometry
[17:59]	Simon Linden:	Gaius - yes, that's what Andrew means. We're now doing the mass based on the shape you see
[17:59]	Tsuno Soyinka:	Hehe, areth has been workign on that all week!
[17:59]	Tsuno Soyinka:	those complications...
[18:00]	Andrew Linden:	(3) and some problems near the transition between >> the collision tolerance and << the collision tolerance
[18:00]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Okay, I don't even want to think about (2). :p
[18:00]	Creem Pye:	hm I guess only convex objects wouldn't have complications
[18:00]	Andrew Linden:	that is... if the collision tolerance is 10 cm... what do you do for th 5cm and 1cm cube?
[18:00]	Scalar Tardis:	In Legacy do we trust.
[18:00]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Hehe
[18:00]	Areth Gall:	Yeps. If you need any help, I've been working on a prim replicator (Not a copybot or anything of the sort, just something for some automated physics experimentation). And I could help ye if you need any help in figuring out values for those.
[18:00]	Andrew Linden:	Anyway... it is a Project... distinct from just getting Havok4 working as close as possible to Havok1
[18:01]	Andrew Linden:	This office hour is about up.
[18:01]	Andrew Linden:	And I have lots of bugs to fix yet.
[18:01]	Areth Gall:	Indeed.
[18:01]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Thank you, and good luck. :)
[18:02]	Creem Pye:	are there any pending changes to vehicle performance that your'e aware of?
[18:02]	Iexo Bethune:	And keep up the good work. H4 is looking good so far.
[18:02]	Creem Pye:	yeah thanks!
[18:02]	Andrew Linden:	yes creem, there are a few changes to vehicles
[18:02]	Cinthya Loveless:	don't want H4 running like H1 want it running alot better then h1
[18:02]	Tsuno Soyinka:	I thought vehicle system was going to be trashed...
[18:02]	Andrew Linden:	but mostly those changes are to compenstat for some new bugs that haven't been released yet
[18:02]	Andrew Linden:	hopefully I can fix them tonight
[18:02]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Cinthya: We want it to *look* like H1 but *work* like H4. :)
[18:02]	Andrew Linden:	boats are still low in the water
[18:03]	Areth Gall:	Not trashed to my knowledge, Tsuno. It's being kept about the same.
[18:03]	Cinthya Loveless:	I know im picking on andrew
[18:03]	Creem Pye:	ok thanks, just wondering when I hsould finally tune everything for H4 =)
[18:03]	Andrew Linden:	and some ground vehicles still hit prim boundaries bad
[18:03]	Tsuno Soyinka:	hmm, the gap between my block and the table appears less than when it had blocks under it.
[18:03]	Andrew Linden:	er... prim seams
[18:03]	Iexo Bethune:	I've got a very limited scope of vehicle performance, since I really only use the Hammerhead flight script and derivatives thereof, but I can tell you Hammerhead works alot better in H4 than in H1.
[18:04]	Andrew Linden:	alright everyone. see you next week
[18:04]	Simon Linden:	Thanks all - see you
[18:04]	McCabe Maxsted:	take care :)
[18:04]	Cinthya Loveless:	see you then
[18:04]	Rex Cronon:	bye andrew
[18:04]	Areth Gall:	Don't let the hamsters bite.
[18:04]	Iexo Bethune:	Bye bye
[18:04]	Scalar Tardis:	wave
[18:04]	Rex Cronon:	by everybody
[18:04]	Gaius Goodliffe runs from the hamsters.
[18:04]	Tsuno Soyinka:	Ahhh The hamster has my TAIL!