User:Benjamin Linden/Office Hours/2007 Oct 04

Transcript of Benjamin Linden's office hours:

[15:02]	Gigs Taggart:	hi
[15:02]	Benjamin Linden:	hey Gigs!
[15:03]	Benjamin Linden:	wow where is everyone?
[15:03]	Kooky Jetaime:	Hey Ben
[15:03]	Benjamin Linden:	hey Kooky
[15:03]	Benjamin Linden:	nice to see you
[15:03]	Kooky Jetaime:	I've got some nice new bugs for next week
[15:03]	Benjamin Linden:	awesome
[15:03]	Gigs Taggart:	Benajmin do you have an agenda or is this open?
[15:04]	Kooky Jetaime:	VWR-2650, VWR-2651, VWR-2636 if your interested
[15:04]	Benjamin Linden:	this is open discussion Gigs
[15:04]	Kooky Jetaime:	2636 is also LLID SL-57024
[15:04]	Benjamin Linden:	hey Squirrel
[15:04]	Benjamin Linden:	good to see you, missed you last week
[15:04]	Squirrel Wood:	Yellow Ben :)
[15:05]	Benjamin Linden:	hi Ciaran
[15:05]	Ciaran Laval:	Hi
[15:05]	Benjamin Linden:	hey Jason and Kerry
[15:05]	Kerry Giha:	Hello
[15:05]	Kooky Jetaime:	Whoo hoo, 5 votes!
[15:05]	Gigs Taggart:	Benjamin I have a bit issue to discuss with you whenever we get into it
[15:05]	Squirrel Wood:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-713 has 98 votes ;)
[15:05]	Gigs Taggart:	It's about UI consistancy
[15:05]	Yimita Kiergarten shouts: somebody knows how to fly more high
[15:05]	Squirrel Wood shouts: Use a flight assist script
[15:06]	Yimita Kiergarten shouts: :( i don't know how i'm new
[15:06]	Yimita Kiergarten shouts: thanks
[15:06]	Squirrel Wood shouts: wear this flight feather ^^
[15:06]	Tillie Ariantho:	Hello there. :)
[15:06]	Kooky Jetaime:	wow
[15:06]	Lvis Allen shouts: Page up and Page down keys!!!
[15:07]	Yimita Kiergarten shouts: THANK YOU TO EVERYONE!!!
[15:07]	Kooky Jetaime:	And I'm happy with my 6 is the most I've ever had on any issue
[15:07]	Yimita Kiergarten shouts: oops
[15:07]	Benjamin Linden:	all this shouting :-)
[15:08]	Kooky Jetaime:	at least something is getting done
[15:08]	Benjamin Linden:	I'm looking at that jira task Gigs
[15:08]	Turtle thinks that that all this shouting is disturbing his inner tranquility
[15:08]	Gigs Taggart:	ok, let me know when you are done with that
[15:08]	Squirrel Wood promotes https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-707 ^^
[15:09]	Benjamin Linden:	this sounds like a useful feature to me, Gigs
[15:09]	Gigs Taggart:	what are you talking about?
[15:10]	Gigs Taggart:	I haven't told you my proposal yet :)
[15:10]	Benjamin Linden:	haha ok shoot
[15:10]	Gigs Taggart:	well who's jira were you talking about :)
[15:10]	Benjamin Linden:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-713
[15:10]	Squirrel Wood:	heh
[15:10]	Benjamin Linden:	isn't this the one you sent, Gigs?
[15:10]	Gigs Taggart:	no
[15:10]	Gigs Taggart:	that was squirrel
[15:10]	Squirrel Wood:	Aye
[15:11]	Gigs Taggart:	my thing isn't in Jira yet, I want to get a nod first :)
[15:11]	Benjamin Linden:	squirrel I'm importing yours on voice gestures
[15:11]	Kooky Jetaime:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-2650 (Bug: Duplicate Gestures not disabled), http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-2651 (Sunset Shortcut Triggers Beacons), http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-2636 (Inventory Redraws when friends notice displays) if your interested
[15:11]	Kooky Jetaime:	Since we're all buggin it :D
[15:11]	Squirrel Wood:	W00t :)
[15:11]	Gigs Taggart:	Kooky we already reproduced 2636 at the triage
[15:11]	Gigs Taggart:	it's taken care of
[15:11]	Squirrel Wood:	the voice gestures should hopefully be trivial to fix
[15:12]	Kooky Jetaime:	oh ya hehe n/m :P
[15:13]	Gigs Taggart:	Benajmin in the Profile floater and everywhere else in the client, everything else updates when you hit OK, or updates immediately on UI commit. The classified floater has an obnoxious "save changed" popup that nothing else in the client has. This was added for a very good reason, that if you fail to hit "update" your changes are silently lost. I'd like to try to make a patch that would make classifieds auto-commit like everything else in the client.
[15:14]	Benjamin Linden:	with the OK button you mean?
[15:14]	Gigs Taggart:	Either with OK or on UI commit, like when they leave the field.
[15:14]	Benjamin Linden:	well it should be one or the other
[15:14]	Benjamin Linden:	but yes, it's really bad the way clicking Ok doesn't keep changes to the classifieds
[15:14]	Gigs Taggart:	Prokofy spawned this. She wants to ditch "Save changes" without getting rid of the "update" button.
[15:14]	Benjamin Linden:	I was just discussing this with torley a few days ago
[15:15]	Gigs Taggart:	but that has obvious pitfalls
[15:15]	Benjamin Linden:	right, Prok was at Tuesday's meeting
[15:15]	Gigs Taggart:	yeah
[15:15]	Gigs Taggart:	she's really giving me a lot of shit over this
[15:15]	Benjamin Linden:	lol
[15:15]	Gigs Taggart:	so I want to make it autocommit somewhat out of spite, but also because it's the right thing to do UI wise.
[15:15]	Benjamin Linden:	well apparently it also asks if you want to save *every single* ad, even if you only change one
[15:15]	Kerry Giha:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-236
[15:15]	Squirrel Wood:	Gigs, Porky usually does that to everyone :p
[15:15]	Benjamin Linden:	well the profile window has OK/cancel right
[15:15]	Kerry Giha:	Something like this would be nice for people who wear headsets
[15:16]	Benjamin Linden:	so it shouldn't technically be auto-commit
[15:16]	Gigs Taggart:	I reproduced that bug benjamin, the cascade was an artifact of fields making themselves dirty on focus
[15:16]	Gigs Taggart:	Benjamin ok so then then OK button should commit, right?
[15:16]	Gigs Taggart:	Prokofy claims that Profile commit on OK is broken sometimes... but I've never heard of that.
[15:16]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, and if you click cancel it should ask you if you're sure you want to discard your classifieds
[15:17]	Gigs Taggart:	Benjamin I'm not sure that will be possible, since "publish" has instant side effects.
[15:17]	Jason Swain jokingly states, maybe fixing the client complete crashing bugs would help ;)
[15:17]	Gigs Taggart:	like, debiting your money
[15:17]	Benjamin Linden:	hang on let me bring up the window
[15:17]	Gigs Taggart:	if you "publish" but don't agree to the money charge, it does go ahead and charge you when you hit "save"
[15:18]	Gigs Taggart:	so we need to be careful not to charge people that didn't intend it
[15:18]	Benjamin Linden:	hmm yeah I forgot publish is in here too
[15:18]	Benjamin Linden:	it's a very odd mixed commit model
[15:18]	Gigs Taggart:	yeah it is
[15:18]	Benjamin Linden:	another person on the user experience team was like, "why is this even in the profile?"
[15:18]	Gigs Taggart:	heh
[15:18]	Benjamin Linden:	which I think is a good question
[15:18]	Squirrel Wood wants an "Prokofy AutoMute" to kick in when Prokofy types more than 20 words in a message ^^ ;)
[15:19]	Benjamin Linden:	lol
[15:19]	Jason Swain:	@Squirrel, ROFL
[15:19]	Squirrel Wood is one mean squirrel today :p
[15:20]	Squirrel Wood:	¼½¾
[15:21]	Saijanai Kuhn must remind self to wear a more beutiful avatar when in teh Prokofy Presence to avoid offending refined sensabilities
[15:21]	Benjamin Linden:	ok this isn't the Prokofy office hour
[15:21]	Tillie Ariantho:	Saijanai: you are good enough for prokofy. .P
[15:21]	Benjamin Linden:	:-)
[15:22]	Gigs Taggart:	hehe
[15:22]	Gigs Taggart:	benjamin I'll have to look at the various sequences of interaction there I guess
[15:22]	Benjamin Linden:	Gigs, I think for now can we treat update as different from publish?
[15:22]	Lvis Allen:	my sl has been crashing all day long.. is this normal? anyone in the same situation?
[15:22]	Gigs Taggart:	yeah I think so
[15:22]	Tillie Ariantho:	Nope, not for me.
[15:22]	Benjamin Linden:	as in, if it's an existing ad that you're updating, if you hit cancel it drops those changes
[15:22]	Ciaran Laval:	Have you tried the new viewer Lvis?
[15:23]	Lvis Allen:	not yet Ciaran
[15:23]	Tillie Ariantho:	Lvis: all well on my side. Only got kicked on a sim restart. .)
[15:23]	Gigs Taggart:	Benjamin I do have to say I've been told the "save changes" dialog is "Causing people to lose millions (of lindens)". I didn't ask for clarification, but there you go. :)
[15:23]	Gigs Taggart:	hehe
[15:23]	Saijanai Kuhn:	is there a new new viewer? or is 1.18.3 the latest release still?
[15:24]	Gigs Taggart:	Benjamin, what about hitting the "x".. treat like cancel?
[15:24]	Benjamin Linden:	yes
[15:24]	Gigs Taggart:	ok
[15:24]	Ciaran Laval:	Still 1.18.3 Sai but with new bug fixes so it has a (5)
[15:24]	Squirrel Wood:	Apparently, some classifieds people pay 100,000s of L$ to have them placed among the top ten in a search.
[15:24]	Saijanai Kuhn:	ah, OK. Using RC currently.
[15:24]	Benjamin Linden:	that's correct Squirrel
[15:25]	Benjamin Linden:	does it make you pay every time you update?
[15:25]	Benjamin Linden:	or do you only set the price once?
[15:25]	Gigs Taggart:	no, but it does clobber your stats
[15:25]	Ciaran Laval:	A classified? No
[15:25]	Squirrel Wood:	X is definitely "forget what I was doing to my classifieds and undo any changes I made" ?
[15:25]	Gigs Taggart:	we need to get that stat clobbering bug fixed first
[15:25]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, is there a separate bug for that?
[15:25]	Gigs Taggart:	before you put my UI patch in
[15:25]	Gigs Taggart:	yeah
[15:25]	Benjamin Linden:	or is it the same one Prok was talking about?
[15:25]	Gigs Taggart:	it was part of the one prok was talking about
[15:25]	Gigs Taggart:	with her it's always 4 bugs conflated
[15:26]	Benjamin Linden:	yeah that makes it hard for us to track specific issues
[15:26]	Benjamin Linden:	you guys should feel free to create separate bugs and link them up
[15:27]	Gigs Taggart:	I did
[15:27]	Gigs Taggart:	the "cascade" but I investigated and it's fixed already in 3.5
[15:27]	Benjamin Linden:	ok great
[15:27]	Gigs Taggart:	bug rather
[15:27]	Gigs Taggart:	it was an artifact of the "dirty on focus" flaw
[15:28]	Gigs Taggart:	the request to get rid of save changes, I think should be addressed the way I'm proposing, but prok disagrees there, we've had many pages of conversation on that :)
[15:28]	Gigs Taggart:	I think I've been called an interloper, I have no life, a weeny
[15:29]	Ciaran Laval:	Ah you caught Prok in a good mood then
[15:29]	Gigs Taggart:	hehe
[15:29]	Tillie Ariantho:	If SL is going to work like Prokofy wants, we're all doomed. Make it like Gigs says. .)
[15:29]	Benjamin Linden:	it would be more helpful to have the discussion in jira
[15:29]	Squirrel Wood:	Prokofy is just one person. We are many too. his/her complaints should not be taken any more serious than anyone elses ^^
[15:29]	Benjamin Linden:	so we can see her points
[15:30]	Saijanai Kuhn:	"save changes" is a standard UI thing. You always provide a "save changes" unless it is automatic anywy. As long as "cancel changes" isn't teh default, I dont' see her issue
[15:30]	Gigs Taggart:	she wants it in a way that cancel would be default
[15:30]	Gigs Taggart:	if we get rid of save changes without getting rid of update, hitting "OK" will silently discard changes
[15:30]	Gigs Taggart:	that's they way it used to be
[15:30]	Gigs Taggart:	when it was first added
[15:31]	Squirrel Wood:	I'd expect the standard windows behavior. OK commits changes, Cancel undoes them.
[15:31]	Gigs Taggart:	yeah
[15:31]	Benjamin Linden:	yeah it sounds like she's confusing two different problems
[15:32]	Gigs Taggart:	she has no faith that "ok" will work
[15:32]	Gigs Taggart:	that seems to be her concern, I think
[15:32]	Benjamin Linden:	because it was broken before?
[15:32]	Benjamin Linden:	well it should work and if it doesn't we'll need to fix it
[15:33]	Gigs Taggart:	yeah
[15:33]	Squirrel Wood:	then add a popup on "ok" that goes "Your changes have been saved, the classifieds been updated and the statistics reset." ^^
[15:33]	Gigs Taggart:	eww
[15:33]	Gigs Taggart:	the latter part shouldn't be true after that bug is fixed anyway
[15:33]	Benjamin Linden:	lol @ squirrel
[15:34]	Jason Swain:	lol
[15:34]	Squirrel Wood:	or mayhaps on ok "Are you sure to commit changes?" [yes/no]
[15:34]	Gigs Taggart:	ok well it looks like we are all in agreement here
[15:34]	Gigs Taggart:	squirrel: ew again :)
[15:34]	Squirrel Wood:	hehe
[15:34]	Benjamin Linden:	what jira task are you working on this in Gigs?
[15:36]	Tillie Ariantho:	test
[15:36]	Gigs Taggart:	benjamin none yet
[15:36]	Gigs Taggart:	benjamin as soon as I file it it's going to have a huge rant in it :)
[15:36]	Gigs Taggart:	I guess I can do that
[15:37]	Benjamin Linden:	I think it's helpful to have the conversation in jira
[15:37]	Benjamin Linden:	but of course it's up to you
[15:38]	Benjamin Linden:	I wonder why the urler stopped spinning
[15:38]	Kooky Jetaime:	Hahah
[15:38]	Kooky Jetaime:	it don't like you?
[15:38]	Gigs Taggart:	ran out of power
[15:38]	Benjamin Linden:	lol
[15:38]	Benjamin Linden:	maybe it's solar powered
[15:38]	Kooky Jetaime:	someone recharge the URLer..
[15:38]	Kooky Jetaime:	anyone got an extention cord?
[15:38]	Benjamin Linden:	I forget who gave it to me
[15:39]	Benjamin Linden:	oh right Warkirby
[15:39]	Gigs Taggart:	I wrote the original URLer
[15:39]	Kooky Jetaime:	the more impressive thing
[15:39]	Gigs Taggart:	someone improved it
[15:39]	Benjamin Linden:	oh cool
[15:39]	Kooky Jetaime:	is the fact that it appeared to stop to more than one of us
[15:39]	Gigs Taggart:	mine was just a cube :)
[15:39]	Benjamin Linden:	yeah you wrote it for Rob's office hours right?
[15:39]	Gigs Taggart:	yeah
[15:39]	Benjamin Linden:	I remember
[15:39]	Gigs Taggart:	a long time ago
[15:39]	Kooky Jetaime:	Meaning: Is it llTargetOmega OR llSetRot?
[15:39]	Benjamin Linden:	oh now it's moving again
[15:39]	Benjamin Linden:	I must've kickstarted
[15:39]	Kooky Jetaime:	after we all grabbed it
[15:40]	Benjamin Linden:	maybe that reset the script
[15:40]	Kooky Jetaime:	its snapping so its llTargetOmega
[15:40]	Squirrel Wood:	http://bighugelabs.com/flickr/onblack.php?id=168546097&size=Large :p
[15:40]	Benjamin Linden:	I have to admit I'm a scripting noob
[15:40]	Kooky Jetaime:	so it shouldn't have stopped
[15:40]	Gigs Taggart:	there were actually two URLers
[15:40]	Squirrel Wood:	Relax ^^
[15:40]	Gigs Taggart:	once was a cube, the other was a walking roach
[15:40]	Dzonatas Sol raises hand
[15:40]	Gigs Taggart:	the roach had issues with wandering off
[15:40]	Benjamin Linden:	oh hey Dzonatas, I didn't even see you sneak in
[15:40]	Benjamin Linden:	what's up
[15:40]	Dzonatas Sol:	Hi!
[15:41]	Kooky Jetaime:	I'm tempted to write another URLer that just listens for VWR- / SVC- / etc and generates the URL
[15:41]	Gigs Taggart:	kooky that's what the original did
[15:41]	Gigs Taggart:	the new one, I think only listens to the owner or something
[15:42]	Dzonatas Sol:	Quick thing to question about. On the UI. Some option like on the Sell Land have "anyone" or "specific user"... how about an extra option that says "only humans"? (and use recaptcha)... quick thoughts?
[15:42]	Kooky Jetaime:	omg.. 50 years since Sputnik? wow we've come a long way baby.
[15:42]	Kooky Jetaime:	Thx
[15:42]	Kooky Jetaime:	(Its a Google-Graphic)
[15:43]	Squirrel Wood:	recaptcha.... did like 350 words on their website at work today...
[15:43]	Benjamin Linden:	Dzonatas, that's a good question, I was just discussing that with my team earlier
[15:43]	Benjamin Linden:	this question of how to prevent the landbots from snapping up land
[15:43]	Benjamin Linden:	why do we want the "only humans" option?
[15:43]	Benjamin Linden:	what use case does that enable?
[15:44]	Gigs Taggart:	benjamin I have a proposal on that
[15:44]	Kooky Jetaime:	Dzonatas - That issue was..touched... lightly... at Rob's hours
[15:44]	Gigs Taggart:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-19
[15:44]	Squirrel Wood:	land bots gobbling up all the avaiilable land ?
[15:44]	Tillie Ariantho:	Stealing land that is sold by error for 1L?
[15:44]	Gigs Taggart:	SVC-19 solves the bot polling load problem too
[15:44]	Kooky Jetaime:	Benjamin - if your interested, contact Rob since they tabled the issue for an internal LL meeting
[15:45]	Dzonatas Sol:	I think the recaptcha test should not be mandatory if one select "anyone". It should mean "anyone" (even bots) if one selects "anyone," so and extra (3rd) option would allow those who sell specificially leave out "anyone" and select "humans only"
[15:45]	Kooky Jetaime:	it was about Landbots in general / then automation
[15:45]	Ciaran Laval:	How do you identify a bot from a user? Someone told me that a bot needs to be logged in, is that a load of nonsense?
[15:46]	Tillie Ariantho:	I would it make differently.... ENFORCE the popup for user selection in the land sale window.... and add an entry "Anyone" to this, which you have to select, if you really want it.
[15:46]	Squirrel Wood:	You identify a bot by throwing a captcha image at it
[15:46]	Ciaran Laval:	Ah gotcha Squirrel
[15:46]	Benjamin Linden:	is the goal to eliminate bots?
[15:46]	Dzonatas Sol:	I hope not
[15:46]	Kooky Jetaime:	I'm gonna take the position that Rob did..this is more of a policy decision at this point, with regards to allowing bots to purchase land (or anything else), or even be permitted on the grid
[15:46]	Gigs Taggart:	tillie it's ALREADY that way
[15:47]	Ciaran Laval:	Well some bots can be useful I guess but how much resources do they use?
[15:47]	Kooky Jetaime:	Ciaran - exactly..
[15:47]	Benjamin Linden:	I'm trying to understand what the issue is, because you can already specify who you want to sell the land to if you just want to do a transfer
[15:47]	Benjamin Linden:	if you're selling to anyone, why do you care if a bot gets it?
[15:47]	Tillie Ariantho:	No, to reduce the chance them someone is buying land that is traded from 1 person to another for 1L or something... where you think only YOU and the BUYER are in the area....
[15:47]	Ciaran Laval:	Benjamin some people get confused when transferring land from a group back to themself
[15:47]	Dzonatas Sol:	Ben, I agree
[15:47]	Gigs Taggart:	Tillie, you have to explicitely "select" anyone.. it's not the default
[15:48]	Benjamin Linden:	the short-term solution we're going to put in place is more strongly worded warnings when you elect to sell to Anyone
[15:48]	Ciaran Laval:	They think nobody is around and it will only take a few seconds to complete
[15:48]	Tillie Ariantho:	oh, is it? hm... then I dont understand anymore. .(
[15:48]	Benjamin Linden:	explaining that "evil robots" might grab your land
[15:48]	Dzonatas Sol:	It's just seem to becoming more of a concerns about bots than the UI itself.
[15:48]	Ciaran Laval:	That would be useful information Benjamin
[15:49]	Dzonatas Sol:	Perhaps, if we leverage it with *optional* recaptchas, the fear of bots would be minimized. (theory)
[15:49]	Gigs Taggart:	people need to get over their "fear of bots"
[15:49]	Benjamin Linden:	but what is the goal?
[15:49]	Benjamin Linden:	I still don't understand why people care if their land is bought by a bot if they truly don't care who buys it
[15:49]	Benjamin Linden:	I would think they would be pleased that it sold
[15:50]	Saijanai Kuhn:	perhaps fear of bidding wars or something?
[15:50]	Ciaran Laval:	Benjamin but plenty of people don't know bots exist
[15:50]	Kooky Jetaime:	Ben- - because its artificially inflating prices
[15:50]	Dzonatas Sol:	Yes, I would rather have a bot buy my land than it being taken for nothing
[15:50]	Benjamin Linden:	so some people feel we should actually get rid of bots
[15:50]	Gigs Taggart:	Kooky, it is not
[15:50]	Tillie Ariantho:	Okay, one thing I can think of: automated buying of cheap land is raising the prices.... you never will have the change to buy some land in a good area for a reasonable price.
[15:50]	Saijanai Kuhn:	bots forspecific things should be avoided. What thos specific things are is open to debate...
[15:51]	Jurin Juran:	some land owners raise the prices high, just to be sure ad farms don't move in
[15:51]	Dzonatas Sol:	Ben, i feel they think we need to get rid of bots because they fear there is no option to detect them. The goal would be to give them the option of detection
[15:51]	Tillie Ariantho:	You always pay the upper limit.
[15:51]	Ciaran Laval:	Well if people realised the pros and cons of bots then maybe they wouldn't call for a ban but in terms of land it's an expensive lesson to learn
[15:51]	Squirrel Wood:	The way I see it is that bots are used to claim cheap land in order to sell/rent it out at a higher price. Also, it makes it almost impossible for normal human players to find a decent priced piece of land.
[15:51]	Benjamin Linden:	I could see a market for automated real estate agents
[15:51]	Gigs Taggart:	benjamin I see it more like a stock exchange or lindex
[15:51]	Gigs Taggart:	limit sell and buy orders
[15:51]	Gigs Taggart:	then people can't sell for 1l
[15:51]	Gigs Taggart:	they'll get the best limit order price
[15:52]	Kooky Jetaime:	Bragg v Linden & Rosedale has been settled, he got his account back but everything else is confidential.
[15:52]	Tillie Ariantho:	Sure you see 'a market', but can there be something in here that is not only thought from a business view?
[15:52]	Gigs Taggart:	no
[15:52]	Gigs Taggart:	it IS a market
[15:52]	Gigs Taggart:	you can't tell a cat it isn't a cat
[15:52]	Benjamin Linden:	doesn't fairmarket enable that?
[15:53]	Benjamin Linden:	auctions I mean
[15:53]	Gigs Taggart:	no
[15:53]	Tillie Ariantho:	fairmarket?
[15:53]	Benjamin Linden:	it's our new land market system
[15:53]	Benjamin Linden:	I mean land auction system
[15:53]	Ciaran Laval:	Well we can't sell land on there?
[15:53]	Tillie Ariantho:	Not checked, I have my island, I need no further land.
[15:54]	Ciaran Laval:	And I'm buggered if I'm buying any USD auctions now
[15:54]	Tillie Ariantho:	But back then in january, when I was looking for some land it was really hard. Only JUNKland for RENT instead for SALE in the auctions and stuff like that. .)
[15:54]	Benjamin Linden:	I definitely think if people want to make a case against land bots it needs to be done with the Community team, like at Robin's office hours
[15:54]	Ciaran Laval:	It has the potential Benjamin when we're allowed to use it
[15:55]	Gigs Taggart:	Benjamin I disagree... as SL moves toward an open platform, this sort of thing has wide ranging implications in limiting the SL platform
[15:55]	Ciaran Laval:	Poor Robin
[15:55]	Benjamin Linden:	my goal is prevent users from selecting the wrong option when they attempt to sell their land to someone else
[15:55]	Gigs Taggart:	if we say "bots aren't allowed" we might as well throw away any idea of an open architecture
[15:55]	Benjamin Linden:	Gigs, I'm not saying I support that decision
[15:55]	Kooky Jetaime:	\Hmmm
[15:55]	Benjamin Linden:	I'm saying this isn't the correct forum to discuss it
[15:55]	Kooky Jetaime:	my url stopped spinning again?
[15:55]	Squirrel Wood:	The best solution may be to give people an option to "keep bots out" by requiring the buyer to "solve" a captcha.
[15:55]	Gigs Taggart:	Benjamin I'm only saying it's not even a decision that the community team can make.
[15:55]	Ciaran Laval:	I think limiting the effectiveness of bots via captcha is the best compromise
[15:56]	Kooky Jetaime:	there it goes
[15:56]	Tillie Ariantho:	yes
[15:56]	Dzonatas Sol:	I don't think a case against bots will win, so the only option now seems to be segregation for those that choose that really don't want bots around
[15:56]	Squirrel Wood:	as an *option* to choose
[15:56]	Ciaran Laval:	Yes Squirrel
[15:56]	Benjamin Linden:	I suppose that would be one way to handle it
[15:56]	Tillie Ariantho:	All I see is there is: people making lots of money by not doing anything, just sit there and count L$ ...
[15:56]	Tillie Ariantho:	They are not producing anything of worth...
[15:57]	Gigs Taggart:	Tillie that's not the case at all. Arbitrage plays are dangerous
[15:57]	Tillie Ariantho:	Enforce them to go into a parcel and manually buy it.
[15:57]	Gigs Taggart:	Tillie and they increase market efficiency
[15:57]	Dzonatas Sol:	The "keep bots out" should be a 3rd option, squrrel
[15:57]	Tillie Ariantho:	market efficiency??
[15:57]	Gigs Taggart:	yes
[15:57]	Tillie Ariantho:	They fuck up the prices, that's all.
[15:57]	Gigs Taggart:	they provider the seller with a price they want quickly
[15:57]	Gigs Taggart:	liquidity
[15:58]	Gigs Taggart:	overall market efficiency is increased
[15:58]	Tillie Ariantho:	liquidity? whose ones?
[15:58]	Gigs Taggart:	for people that want to sell land quickly and cheaply
[15:58]	Squirrel Wood:	Dzontas, yes. an optional option ^
[15:58]	Tillie Ariantho:	That can be done in other ways to, not by bots.
[15:59]	Gigs Taggart:	I agree, I think a market with limit buys and sells would be even more efficient
[15:59]	Gigs Taggart:	and reduce load on LL's servers
[15:59]	Benjamin Linden:	this is all fascinating discussion
[15:59]	Gigs Taggart:	:P
[15:59]	Kooky Jetaime:	but times up
[15:59]	Kooky Jetaime:	hehe
[15:59]	Squirrel Wood:	Darn! ^^
[15:59]	Ciaran Laval:	lol
[15:59]	Benjamin Linden:	I feel like we're in blade runner discussing if the androids can coexist with people
[16:00]	Dzonatas Sol:	Benjamin, exactly!
[16:00]	Tillie Ariantho:	Where 1 person is faster liquid, there looses another person more money than it had to. because the land baron grabs a big part of it.
[16:00]	Benjamin Linden:	but sadly, as Kooky points out, we've reached our time limit
[16:00]	Dzonatas Sol:	The discussion has already started, but the novel was already written
[16:00]	Ciaran Laval:	Geesh that's two great films people have mentioned tonight!
[16:00]	Jason Swain:	Benjamin, Can I ask you to take a quick look at a screenshot of an odd graphics bug?
[16:00]	Benjamin Linden:	you all can feel free to stay and chat about this further but I have to run
[16:01]	Gigs Taggart:	tillie what right do you have to say I shouldn't sell something so cheaply?
[16:01]	Benjamin Linden:	Jason, is there any chance you can bring it up at bug triage next week?
[16:01]	Gigs Taggart:	if I want to sell my blue book $2000 car for $100 that's my right
[16:01]	Jason Swain:	sure np
[16:01]	Jason Swain:	ty see you soon
[16:01]	Gigs Taggart:	and the "Evil dealer" gets the profie
[16:01]	Squirrel Wood:	Have fun!
[16:01]	Benjamin Linden:	ok thanks everybody
[16:01]	Tillie Ariantho:	I dont complaint about land being sold for cheap... but about haveing to BUY it expensive.
[16:01]	Dzonatas Sol:	thank you for the thoughts on this
[16:02]	Gigs Taggart:	tillie, bots have little to do with that... land prices have risen and fallen based on supply
[16:02]	Benjamin Linden:	take care all!