Doc Team/2008-01-25

Connected
TeaCup whispers: Tea Time!!
You: Hello Arawn. Welcome back to Documentation Office Hours.
You: And thank you for silencing that teapot.
Arawn Spitteler: One of Robin Wood's
You: Hello Jon. Welcome to Documentation Office Hours!
Jon Linden: hahahaha
Arawn Spitteler: He missed my new teapot
You: Heh. That's not necessarily a bad thing.
You: Arawn had a wailing teapot.
Jon Linden: i was going to ask. heh!
Arawn Spitteler: Did it get louder, as I got closer, or was it toggled by radius
You: I heard it as soon as you arrived, and I moved my camera to go look, so I'm not sure.
Arawn Spitteler: I guess I can play with my camera, to find out.
Arawn Spitteler: I found a possible future feature, but I don't know how the logic could be implemented
You: Jon, you can try playing with the spacebar to arrest your movement.
You: Oh? What feature, Arawn?
Arawn Spitteler: The other day, in a Havoc 4 Office Hour, I brought up the question of STATUS_ROTATE_Y
You: Hi Becky. Welcome to Documentation Office Hours!
tucor Capalini: hi hi :)
Arawn Spitteler: Andrew described it as a Hack, because it's a Hack, when implemented by Linden Labs, but the documnetation doesn't mention that it's vulnerable to the Whim of Havoc.com
Becky Pippen: Hi guys :-)
Arawn Spitteler: Hi, Becky
You: Hi tucor, welcome!
tucor Capalini: grazie! :)
Arawn Spitteler: The documentation didn't carry a "Potentially Unsupportable" bit.
Jon Linden: whose documentation, Arawn?
Arawn Spitteler: For LSL, as far as I can tell. We all use the lslwiki, as better than the official, if only out of habit, but the potential shortfall doesn't seem to be mentioned in either
Jon Linden: i don't really have the knowledge of LSL or the Havok4 engine to be able to comment effectively on what you're talking about, Arawn
You: Arawn, can you please back up and explain the core issue?
Becky Pippen: yes please :-)
Arawn Spitteler: I have a stool, and a few other items, that fall over in Havoc 4
You: And this is because something about LSL changed in Havok4?
tucor Capalini: and more importantly, are they suposed to fall over?
Jon Linden: also a good question
Arawn Spitteler: I have several toys that use llSetStatus( STATUS_ROTATE_Y|STATUS_ROTATE_Z, FALSE) that is to say, they aren't supposed to wobble, on the Y or Z Axis
You: Right, I understand that much.
Becky Pippen: center of gravity can shift a little in linkset with Havok 4, could that be enough to make it wobble?
Arawn Spitteler: Under Havoc 1, they all work, but I Sidewinder added the feature to the Internal Jira, yesterday
Arawn Spitteler: The Rotations are supposed to be suppressed, by llSetStatus() so they won't wobble at all.
You: Correct.
Jon Linden: did you bring this up in Sidewinder's office hours?
Arawn Spitteler: Andrew hadn't been giving it much heed, since the feature was never promised by Havoc
Jon Linden: also, does what Becky said make a difference?
Jon Linden: this sounds to me more like a Havok4 Office Hours thing, is all
Arawn Spitteler: Andrew's. You'd be more concerned, about the logic by which the feature vulnerability would be documented
You: What part of what you just described is a vulnerability?
Arawn Spitteler: Havoc hasn't documented any support, for what my toys depend on, so the capacity of Linden Labs to support a documented feature dcould vanish at any time
Arawn Spitteler: Linden documents the feature, but it depends on Havoc, which hasn't documented it's toleration.
tucor Capalini: (ADD sidebar) the Havoc engine, is it based on the original Havoc game from about 12 years ago?
Arawn Spitteler: I expect Havoc uses it themselves, but simply haven't documented\\
Jon Linden: so from what I understand, then, it's really more of a Havok4 documentation thing than a Second Life documentation thing?
You: Havok isn't going to document how their physics engine behaves in conjunction with LSL...
Jon Linden: Havok is the name of the physics engine, tucor, but I don't know if it came from a game by that same name
Arawn Spitteler: It it's the same programming studio, it's probably built on that experience
tucor Capalini: hmmm interesting :) thanks! :)
Arawn Spitteler: 12 years is a lot of Client-Side Upgrade, though
tucor Capalini: just a wee bit :)
You: Moreover, it sounds from your description like STATUS_ROTATE_Y is working exactly the way it was intended, if it disallows any rotation on the Y axis.
Jon Linden: i wonder if there's somebody who has LSL office hours
Arawn Spitteler: It works as documented for Havoc 1, but has been upgraded to a thing to do for Havoc 4
Arawn Spitteler: Those would be flooded
tucor Capalini: that could be a mess
Jon Linden: hreheh
You: However... I'm not an expert on our integration of Havok 4 into SL. This sounds very much like a Havok 4 office hours issue...
Arawn Spitteler: I want to learn Vehicles, but have to learn Physics, first
Jon Linden: sure, that makes sense
Arawn Spitteler: Keeping the integration documented, is a documentation issue
You: Actually, the LSL wiki doesn't fall under our umbrella, interestingly enough.
tucor Capalini: is there abetter source of documentation for LSL than the wikki?
Jon Linden: if it were possible for the Havok4 team to put together a list of ways in which physical objects will behave differently than under havok1, that could be a pretty decent KB article
You: There are a couple places to look, tucor... we have an official LSL wiki (http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LSL_Portal), and I like to use www.lslwiki.org as well.
Becky Pippen: and lslwiki.net
You: I believe we also have a scripting guide accessible through the help menu.
You: sorry, lslwiki.net, that's what I meant. Thanks Becky.
Arawn Spitteler: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlSetStatus
tucor Capalini: okies....familiar with those...tooo familiar it seems somedays :)
tucor Capalini: kinda feel bad when i ahve to refer to them several times in one script :)
Arawn Spitteler: Havoc 4 isn't supposed to bahave differently
You: Residents will also sometimes teach scripting classes in SL. I'm not aware of any right now, but you might want to keep an eye on the events listing.
Becky Pippen: NCI has scritping classes, and the Mentor program/VTeam wiki advertises some LSL classes too.
Arawn Spitteler: Mine was last night; we did touch_stop()
tucor Capalini: coolness :)
tucor Capalini: im mostly looking for definitions of the functions that are not defiend on the wikki
Arawn Spitteler: touch_end(integer)
Becky Pippen: all functions *are* in the wikis.
Arawn Spitteler: I use the lslwiki
You: There shouldn't be any that aren't defined on the official wiki..
Jon Linden: i'm checking our to-do list of KB items, and updating the havok4 entry
Arawn Spitteler wonders if there's an automated check, on that
tucor Capalini: KB items?
Jon Linden: we maintain an internal list of Knowledge Base articles to update, write, or edit
You: Righto... now, in an attempt to steer this conversation back to its intended topic, does anyone have anything Knowledge Base related they'd like to talk about?
tucor Capalini: ok, my bad there...the ones needing examples is what i was going for, not the definitions :)
tucor Capalini: ahh gotcha :)
Arawn Spitteler: The corelation of what Linden Library recognizes, and what commands are documented
tucor Capalini: in a round about way........i think i do :)
You: Go for it!
tucor Capalini: although i may be off on this....
tucor Capalini: in teh JIRA, i see problems listed,
tucor Capalini: and have the listing for an attached patch,
tucor Capalini: my assumption is,
tucor Capalini: that for viewer side isses,
tucor Capalini: it can be fixed with the open source code and offered up as a patch
tucor Capalini: with that assumption,
tucor Capalini: i was wondering about documentation for the open source, to then be able to look
tucor Capalini: at issues and see if i can do anything about them
SignpostMarv Martin: boo
Jon Linden: hello SignpostMarv, and welcome to Documentation Office Hours
You: Hello, SignpostMarv! Welcome to Documentation Office Hours!
tucor Capalini: EEP!
Jon Linden: open source documentation's a good question
You: Nice primitar!
SignpostMarv Martin: :-P
SignpostMarv Martin: what's on the agenda & what've I missed ?
Becky Pippen: tucor, are you saying you'd like to get involved with contributing to the open source effort as a developer?
tucor Capalini: yes...eventually
Jon Linden: on the agenda is anything you have to ask or offer about Second Life documentation -- mostly the Knowledge Base and processes surrounding it
You: Heh. We're usually pretty freeform here, but so far we've had a bit of off-topic discussion about Havok and LSL, and we've moved on to the topic of open-source community documentation.
SignpostMarv Martin: I have a rather dumb question regarding the knowledge base
Jon Linden: which, honestly, i'm not sure i know the answer to
Jon Linden: this open-source question, that is
Jon Linden: go ahead, Signpost
SignpostMarv Martin: "Why isn't the knowledge base on the wiki"
tucor Capalini: i have found where to download the code.....but, i need to teach myself what im looking at once i get it :)
You: Ohh... you need code documentation for the SL viewer source?
Time Minder: You have been online for 1 hours.
tucor Capalini: yes
tucor Capalini: i think :)
Jon Linden: "the KB's a source for information that isn't likely to change" is the short answer to your question
Arawn Spitteler: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source ?
Becky Pippen: There's http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Portal
You: Our documentation focus is mostly on using the client... but I believe we have some info on the wiki: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Documentation
tucor Capalini: oh geeze, i should have figured that out....thank you :)
Becky Pippen: tucor, the sldev mailing list is sometimes interesting, and there's a weekly open source meeting with Rob, isn't there?
Arawn Spitteler: Zero's Hours have mostly focused on the Interface, lately, but you might like to touch bases there, aswell
You: As for SignpostMarv's question about putting the KB on the wiki... There are a number of technical obstacles preventing us from physically doing so, and a number of philosophical/ethical problems that make us not so sure it's a good idea.
tucor Capalini: coolness thank you!
SignpostMarv Martin: what're the technical obstacles ?
Jon Linden: there's no good way to import large amounts of highly formatted text into a wiki
tucor Capalini: i think the more entertaining question would be about the ethics :)
You: We also don't host the KB ourselves- we access it via an administrative portal maintained by Parature.
Jon Linden: a lot of the information that's in the Knowledge Base also wouldn't really benefit from being community-editable
SignpostMarv Martin: Jon: isn't that what the import tool is for ?
SignpostMarv Martin: Also, just because it's on the wiki doesn't mean it has to be community editable
SignpostMarv Martin: MediaWiki has sysop locking for a reason
You: The practical disadvantage in not hosting the KB means we don't have access to the HTML files themselves.
SignpostMarv Martin: another disadvantage to the current KB is that the HTML is butt-ugly
Jon Linden: you may see a few changes to the stylesheet in a little while
You: Heh. No argument there, but we're constantly working with Parature to iron out the parts of the KB we don't like.
SignpostMarv Martin: http://dev.signpostmarv.name/pub/llsd-region-data/kb-article.html
SignpostMarv Martin: the source code on the original kb article was a mess
Jon Linden: some of the articles came to us from various exports performed by such as MS Word, which likes to insert a lot of junk code
SignpostMarv Martin: had to clean it up a fair bit
SignpostMarv Martin: eww :-P
Jon Linden: indeed
SignpostMarv Martin: How many articles are there in the KB ?
You: Oh man, he's asking all the hard questions! :-)
Jon Linden: more than a hundred, fewer than five
Becky Pippen giggles
Jon Linden: it's hard to count because there are a lot of cases where one article appears in many folders
SignpostMarv Martin: so the technical issue consists mainly of "HTML is butt ugly, would be difficult if not impossible to convert the markup to wiki code for batch importing to MediaWiki"
tucor Capalini: somewhere between nill and sideways 8?
Jon Linden: i also take the position that if i'm going to take the time to import a ton of articles from a KB into a wiki and just lock them so they're not editable, there was no real point in importing them into the wiki in the first place
Jon Linden: one common complaint we get (with good reason) is that with the KB behind a login, it's more of a hassle to access than a wiki
Jon Linden: however, we're working on getting it out from behind the login in the near future
Becky Pippen: yay!!!!!
Arawn Spitteler: Then, just get from behind the log-in screen, and let the Wiki refer to the KB
SignpostMarv Martin: what're the philosophical issues ?
You: As for the non-technical reasons for not moving the KB to a wiki- We can start with "you can't browse a wiki easily"... You pretty much have to know what you're looking for, and you have to know it's there.
You: Another reason I've been told, by Lindens much older than myself, is that "we tried that once, and it didn't work."
SignpostMarv Martin: Jeremy: you can browse the wiki a hell of a lot easier than you can the KB
WidgetHUD v1.1: SignpostMarv Martin has pinged you.
Jon Linden: one of the philosophical issues is the thing i talked about above
You: Heheh.
SignpostMarv Martin: google foo site:wiki.secondlife.com
SignpostMarv Martin: :-P
Jon Linden: the KB has that nice expandable folder tree on the left-hand side, though
Jon Linden: the organization of which is something we're also working to make more intuitive
SignpostMarv Martin: which i don't think works with javascript disabled
SignpostMarv Martin: the KB isn't googleable
You: That's another initiative we're working on, actually.
SignpostMarv Martin: Any other philosophical issues ?
You: I've haven't had this debate in awhile, so they're not fresh in my mind :-P
SignpostMarv Martin: MUHAHAHA
You: I can start listing advantages to our current KB, despite its many failings:
SignpostMarv Martin: ookay :-)
tucor Capalini: do we need list music like on Letterman?:)
SignpostMarv Martin: prepares his poking stick to poke holes in Jeremey's argument
SignpostMarv Martin: :-P
You: For one, our Support team has one-click direct access to the KB, in such a way that they can paste KB articles into their ticket responses with minimal effort.
SignpostMarv Martin: Jeremeny: use a greasemonkey script to do the same with wiki articles
Jon Linden: the aforementioned navigational advantages over the wiki also exist
You: On the flip side, when they get a ticket they think is worth documenting, they can easily redirect it to us.
Jon Linden: mandude, not everybody is going to have Greasemonkey installed and scripts ready to deploy
SignpostMarv Martin: copy & pasting URLs is a rather minor point from the Resident's perspective
Jon Linden: i'm happy you are a web HTML ninja mastuh, but we have a wide spectrum of users with varying degrees of expertise with the web and its use, and we're trying to make things as accessible as possible for as many people as possible with as little extra effort as reasonable
You: Not URLs, precisely, but the text of the article.
SignpostMarv Martin: regarding "stuff that needs documenting", MediaWiki has features for that
SignpostMarv Martin: the point I'm working towards is "would there be any objections to Residents migrating the content themselves"
You: Indeed. In fact we use MediaWiki for our public wiki, I'm pretty sure. However, we tend to use the wiki for documentation of things that are not "how to use the Second Life viewer".
SignpostMarv Martin: ala https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LL:Second_Life_Community_Standards
You: Hm. That's actually a very good question.
Jon Linden: if you think Residents are up for the task of migrating all the KB content to some externally-maintained archive and then taking it upon themselves to keep it up to date, accurate, and organized, then you must know some highly motivated Residents
SignpostMarv Martin: I had considered migrating the Terrain file KB article into the wiki, but thought it would be best to make a copy on my server, since I wasn't sure how LL would feel about it :-P
tucor Capalini: such as ones that are looking to get out of working on airplanes ...and into a different career..... just as an hypothetical :)
You: Well, that's exactly the sort of borderline KB article that I would consider moving to the wiki- it makes use of enough third party software that it becomes difficult to document within the confines of SL.
SignpostMarv Martin: Is the KB suitable for multi-lingual content ?
Jon Linden: there's nothing intrinsically wrong with importing any individual article from the KB into the wiki, but it runs the risk of becoming out of date, since neither jeremy nor i watch the wiki
WidgetHUD v1.1: Jon Linden has pinged you.
You: It is- We actually have a German KB right now!
SignpostMarv Martin: Jon: you probably should :-P
Jon Linden: not my territory, dogg
Jon Linden: i have enough to do!
SignpostMarv Martin: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Jon_Linden
SignpostMarv Martin: rather lacking content
Jon Linden: please see aforementioned memo re: sufficient tasks to accomplish
SignpostMarv Martin: I'm guessing neither of you have seen the progress of the Resident translation projects on the wiki ?
Jon Linden: i was made aware that some effort was being made, but it wasn't something i was tracking intensively -- i think that fell under the purview of someone else in the Community team whose name I don't recall offhand
You: Right.
SignpostMarv Martin: the basic gist is that pretty much every single article on the wiki is being made available in at least 3 languages
You: That is fantastic, in many ways.
Jon Linden: good for them! that's pretty excellent
SignpostMarv Martin: the Residents are in a better position to translate content than Linden Lab are
tucor Capalini: so taht would be...english, bad english...and what else?:)
Arawn Spitteler: Pirate
tucor Capalini: HA HA HA!!!! ah yes, for the FSM followers :)
SignpostMarv Martin: which is another reason towards migrating the KB onto the wiki
Jon Linden: Residents are in a better position to translate wiki content, probably, but if we're going to let people translate actual KB articles, we're going to want to make sure they actually get it right
SignpostMarv Martin: "get it right" ?
You: However, we don't have any control over what/how Residents post to the wiki, including translations- which reminds me of another of my arguments for a co-existing strictly controlled KB alongside the open wiki.
Jon Linden: which means going through more official channels than just "my pal giorgio who speaks italian"
Jon Linden: i'm going to draw an example here
tucor Capalini: ooo pictionary!
tucor Capalini: ok, sorry, ill shush :)
You: The KB as it stands now is under the absolute control of Linden Lab- we are solely responsible for the content in there, and it is "The Word of Linden".
Jon Linden: let's say i want an article on the Preferences window translated, and i decide "i'll just give this article to a Resident to translate, why not"
You: For instance, policies might be a not-so-great thing to post on a wiki, no?
Jon Linden: except that when the Resident translates it, he inserts a bunch of inaccurate information and weird, jingoistic language
Becky Pippen: good point -- consistency is important
Jon Linden: since i don't speak whatever language the article was translated into, i have no idea what's just happened
SignpostMarv Martin: bad example
tucor Capalini: consitencey and liability
SignpostMarv Martin: 1) You wouldn't be handing it over to *one* Resident
SignpostMarv Martin: 2) Other Residents would be able to review the content
Jon Linden: mob editing has a usefulness i'm going to label "limited"
Jon Linden: it's still not reliable
SignpostMarv Martin: It'd be more beneficial to the community
SignpostMarv Martin: anyone who can't read english is currently screwed
Jon Linden: we're working on that
Jon Linden: the definition of "community" is also up for grabs
SignpostMarv Martin: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LSL_Portal_Translation_Project
SignpostMarv Martin: the only thing that is preventing Resident-led migration & translation is the matter of attribution
SignpostMarv Martin: the old kb indicated who wrote the kb article
SignpostMarv Martin: the new one doesn't
SignpostMarv Martin: therefore, technically nobody can migrate the content over to the wiki and have it published uner the CC license, which requires attribution
Jon Linden: this sounds like something i should ask one of our lawyers about, but look
SignpostMarv Martin: one of the other issues i have with the new kb is that old kb links were broken
Arawn Spitteler: Could represent a substantial failure of documnetation
Jon Linden: if you think it's such a hot idea to import all the articles in the KB into a wiki so they can be translated, i'm not going to stop you
Jon Linden: but neither am i going to endorse it as a totally awesome idea
SignpostMarv Martin: Jon: I could quite easily do so, but I can't because of the nature of the CC license
Arawn Spitteler doesn't know what a CCLicense is
SignpostMarv Martin: or rather I "won't" because of the nature of the CC license
Jon Linden: i was speaking in terms of a hypothetical universe where the CC license issue were solved
SignpostMarv Martin: Arawn: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5/
SignpostMarv Martin: when volunteers migrated notecard content over to the wiki, the original contributors to the notecards were mentioned in the wiki article
SignpostMarv Martin: all "we" would need is to know who wrote the articles
Jon Linden: at this point it's nearly impossible to tell who wrote most of the older ones; they were imported into Parature in bulk from the old system
SignpostMarv Martin: so you kinda shot yourselves in the foot with that one :-P
Jon Linden: uh
Jon Linden: if you say so? i don't know that we were expecting to need to attribute these articles to individual authors at the time
You: Heh. The decision to move to Parature was made before Jon or I were hired, but neither of us have any delusions that it's perfect. We are, however, constantly working on that.
Arawn Spitteler thinks that http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/ means you'd have to acknowledge the KB, rather than its authors
Jon Linden: i'm going to assume SignpostMarv already thought that one through, Arawn
SignpostMarv Martin: I'm guessing that if an archive of the old KB was lying around, it'd be possible to provide attribution
Jon Linden: such an archive does not actually exist
SignpostMarv Martin: the KB didn't write content
SignpostMarv Martin: you'd either have to attribute the content collecitvely to Linden Lab, or the individual(s) who created the article
Jon Linden: this sounds like fascinating discussion for a future office hour -- i have to note that we're out of time here, and i really have to go to the bathroom
SignpostMarv Martin: the latter is preferable, collective attribution is rather suckage
SignpostMarv Martin: I wonder if I could mention another thing to for future discussion before you go ?
Jon Linden: please make it fast
SignpostMarv Martin: there is no technical documentation on the RAW terrain files
SignpostMarv Martin: the basic gist is "use photoshop or be screwed"
Jon Linden: what sort of technical documentation are you looking for?
SignpostMarv Martin: Jon: I've been asked to consider automatic conversion of google map terrain textures into RAW terrain images
SignpostMarv Martin: there's also the matter of generating example documents for my region data spec: http://dev.signpostmarv.name/pub/llsd-region-data/
You: SignpostMarv, you may want to stop in on an Open Source office hour for some of this- I'll make a note to go find out who would be best suited to talk about the current wiki and our more technical documentation.
SignpostMarv Martin: currently, my only option is to create a 1 pixel by 1 pixel RAW file with 13 channels in photoshop, then reverse engineer the data structure :-P
You: Actually, SignpostMarv, our current KB article on the subject describes all 3 channels we currently use :-)
SignpostMarv Martin: yes, but not the structure of the file itself
SignpostMarv Martin: just "this channel does that bit, this one does that bit"
Jon Linden: i'm sure that's not an insurmountable challenge given your apparent mastery of technology
Becky Pippen: It's very straightforward, Signpost. Each pixel's value is height or border or whatever. There's no intermediate structure to it.
SignpostMarv Martin: Becky: I'm referring to the actual binary data itself
Becky Pippen: yes.
Becky Pippen: oh, the file structure?
SignpostMarv Martin: yeo
SignpostMarv Martin: yep*
You: Ok, that's definitely an article for the wiki, where the most technical of documentation goes- and unfortunately, where Jon and I do not normally go. The subject matter expert at Linden Lab would be the one to post there.
You: ...or anyone who figures it out, of course.
SignpostMarv Martin: I was suprised to see that the other 10 channels aren't used any more
SignpostMarv Martin: kinda works well with my plan for the region data LLSD file :-)
Arawn Spitteler wonders if it's permissible to disclose the structure used by Photoshop
You: As was I- I had to do a lot of editing on that article when it was brought to my attention.
SignpostMarv Martin: Personally I find it odd that Linden Lab are forcing Residents to use proprietary software to create the terrain files (with the exception of a small mention but no link towards 3rd party tools)
SignpostMarv Martin: my region data spec would allow for a wider variety of software to generate the terrain data
SignpostMarv Martin: including MS Paint :-P
You: It's something we're trying to move away from, I think. As for the not linking to third party tools, our rule of thumb is to not write documentation for other companies :-)
SignpostMarv Martin: an over simplification: "There's stuff out there that is probably a lot easier to use and isn't as expensive as Photoshop, but we can't tell you what they're called, nor can we tell you where to find them. Sucks to be you if you can't afford photshop or don't want to steal it"
SignpostMarv Martin: ^one of the reasons why I came up with the region data spec in the first place :-P
You: Not exactly. Should Linden Lab be responsible for researching the entire market for compatible graphics programs?
Jon Linden: we can revisit that article for tone, i suppose
SignpostMarv Martin: if you could find a google query that returned reliable results for locating third party tools, or a wiki article listing them, I'm guessing you could point towards that
You: And how long will those links remain relevant?
tucor Capalini: is there somthing with the terrain files that cannot be done in Gimp? (i havent attempted it yet)
SignpostMarv Martin: however, there is only one 3rd party tool I'm aware of- Backhoe- which is only available for Mac, and can't edit several regions simultaneously
SignpostMarv Martin: tucor: RAW support in GIMP is a bit iffy
tucor Capalini: ahhh ok
Becky Pippen: I tried once with Gimp but lost interest when it didn't work first time :-)
Jon Linden: you folks are welcome to continue this discussion on our pier for as long as you'd like, but we're seriously out of time here
SignpostMarv Martin: hehe
Becky Pippen: Thanks for all the awesome work, Jon and Jeremy!
WidgetHUD v1.1: Becky Pippen has pinged you.
You: Indeed. We will be back here next week at the same time, though!
tucor Capalini: thank you to everyone for the assistance!
SignpostMarv Martin: please do get back to me on the Linden to speak to regarding the terrain files :-)
You: Will try my best, SignpostMarv.
tucor Capalini: and thanks for the atricle on the abandond land the other day.... I had been meaning to look it up, and seeing it there saved me lots of time and procrastination :)
SignpostMarv Martin: anywoo, are any of you familiar with the game Black & White ?
Arawn Spitteler regards Zarf Vanterglu has some software on that, but might not be the Linden responsible
tucor Capalini: love black and white! "_
Jon Linden: everybody enjoy your weekends!
SignpostMarv Martin: ever experimented with creating your own islands ?
tucor Capalini: likewise!
SignpostMarv Martin: you too, you two :-P
You: Heh. I liked Black & White.
SignpostMarv Martin: the terrain format in Black & White is plain text
tucor Capalini: oh wow, never go tthat in depth with it!
tucor Capalini: sounds fun!
SignpostMarv Martin: if there were sufficient documentation on the RAW format, or if LL supported a format similar to my region data spec,
SignpostMarv Martin: it'd be possible to create a tool which converts black & white island to SL islands
You: I'm still not sure what information you're lacking in order to do that?
SignpostMarv Martin: Jermemy: PNG has the technical documentation for the libpng library
SignpostMarv Martin: RAW has.....
tucor Capalini: ADD moment, again..... is there, in plain english, somthing about the mechanics of SL? such as "a prim has the 10meter limit because....."
SignpostMarv Martin: I need to know how to generate RAW files with PHP/Python/Perl/whatever
Becky Pippen: like, file header? how are the bits packed in the data part? Any record structure? etc?
SignpostMarv Martin: Becky, yes ,that kind of thing
SignpostMarv Martin: I'm told RAW is uncompressed so it'd be feasible to reverse engineer it from a 1x1 pixel 13 channel RAW file
SignpostMarv Martin: but I'd much rather not have to do that
Arawn Spitteler would catch Zarf Vantongerloo at a convenient moment to ask: I don't suppose you play Black and White Chess?
You: Oh. There aren't image modules for thati n PHP/Python/Perl?
SignpostMarv Martin: ImageMagick reportedly has support for RAW
SignpostMarv Martin: but there are several variants
Becky Pippen: RAW is kinda a generic term
SignpostMarv Martin: and a brief glance at the documentation indicated it was only meant for 4 channel (RGBA) images
SignpostMarv Martin: not the superfluous 13 channel RAW advocated by LL
SignpostMarv Martin: strongly advises Jeremey to read
SignpostMarv Martin: http://blog.signpostmarv.name/2007/05/31/redesigning-region-management-raw-files-are-a-pain-in-the-ass/
tucor Capalini: gee tell us how you really feel Marv!
SignpostMarv Martin: I had "fun" making the terrain files for SL4B
SignpostMarv Martin: have you ever tried to create a 3x3 grid of sims with a giant SL hand imprinted into the land ? :-P
tucor Capalini: thatd be pretty cool!
Smith Miklos: Hello Everyone :))
You: I once managed to make a sculpty texture based on a region's RAW file. I don't remember what I did, but it wasn't impossible.
You: Hello Smith.
You: Documentation Office Hours ended about a half hour ago, we're just sort of chatting now :-)
SignpostMarv Martin: Jeremy: http://emmanowhere.blogspot.com/2007/06/making-region-sim-models-using.html
WidgetHUD v1.1: SignpostMarv Martin has pinged you.
tucor Capalini: so, how bout them Giants..... :)
Jeremy Linden is in New England.
SignpostMarv Martin: sculpties are better documented than RAW,
SignpostMarv Martin: but would be a bit of a botch job
SignpostMarv Martin: sculpties are meant to represent 3D models, not heightmaps
You: Well, RAW isn't an LL-created standard-- they must have documentation for that standard somewhere.
SignpostMarv Martin: which is why LL should probably adopt a spec like the one I came up with :-P
tucor Capalini: so my assumption that land is a Z axis only, HUGE sculpty is a bit off then eh?
You: This is not an argument I am anywhere near qualified to partake of.
SignpostMarv Martin: philosophically then;
SignpostMarv Martin: would you think it would be better to use formats more widely supported than RAW,
SignpostMarv Martin: especially now that only the RGB channels are actually supported ?
Time Minder: You have been online for 2 hours.
Arawn Spitteler recalls some mention of easier terrain editing, somewhere, in a recent office hour
You: Again, this isn't something I know enough about to comment on as a Linden-- I don't know the reason why we're using RAW now, but there must be one.
SignpostMarv Martin: imagine being able to generate terrain with Flash :-P
SignpostMarv Martin: also,
SignpostMarv Martin: with mozilla's APNG, there's the possibilit of "animated" terrain :-P
You: At any rate, I've got to run now- Thanks for stopping by everyone, I hope this week's office hour was entertaining!
tucor Capalini: well hey yall,l thanks again, i learned bunches and should get moseying and learning more :)
tucor Capalini: ciao a tuti!
You: See y'all next week :-)