User:Benjamin Linden/Office Hours/2008-05-01

Transcript of Benjamin Linden's office hours:

[15:08]	Jacek Antonelli:	Here's the Ben of the hour himself :D
[15:08]	Stephany Linden:	/ you're welcome
[15:08]	Simon Kline:	benjamin has entered the building ^^
[15:08]	Asriazh Frye:	and the star of this evening arrives ^^
[15:08]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe
[15:08]	Malbers Linden:	Thanks Eshi
[15:08]	Simon Kline:	(we can stop talking about him now)
[15:09]	McCabe Maxsted:	the lucky guy who gets to sit on trinity's lap
[15:09]	Benjamin Linden:	hi everybody
[15:09]	Benjamin Linden:	sorry I'm late!
[15:09]	Asriazh Frye:	hihi ^^
[15:09]	Stephany Linden:	/ hey boss ;-)
[15:09]	Trinity Coulter:	oh there he is :))
[15:09]	McCabe Maxsted waves
[15:09]	Kitty Barnett:	lol
[15:09]	Benjamin Linden:	I was just about to login when we switched to RC5
[15:09]	Benjamin Linden:	:-)
[15:09]	Simon Kline:	haha mcabe.... to be him right now!
[15:09]	Benjamin Linden:	hey Stephany :-)
[15:09]	Jacek Antonelli updates to RC5 in the background
[15:10]	Benjamin Linden:	good crowd today
[15:10]	Benjamin Linden:	Kippie's here, yay :-)
[15:10]	McCabe Maxsted:	wooot color_base.xml update
[15:10]	Asriazh Frye:	i didnt try yet, but is the scripting error window still unreadable like at the pre RC5 from the SVN?
[15:10]	Kippie Friedkin:	hehe
[15:10]	Kippie Friedkin waves
[15:10]	Garn Conover:	WTH!
[15:10]	Garn Conover:	lmfao
[15:10]	McCabe Maxsted:	now just need to be able to color menus seperately
[15:10]	Benjamin Linden:	I think we got that fixed in RC5, Asriazh
[15:10]	Garn Conover:	Ben! im stuck!
[15:10]	Garn Conover:	hahah
[15:11]	Asriazh Frye:	^_^
[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli:	I was reading on the wiki discussion page, Frans Charming's suggestion of the deli.cio.us-style landmarks idea
[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli:	Which I heard you guys talked about some last week
[15:11]	Garn Conover:	I hear a Jacek!
[15:11]	Jacek Antonelli:	It's a Garn!
[15:11]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, we chatted about landmark the past two weeks Jacek
[15:11]	Garn Conover:	im stuck i nthe wall dow nehre
[15:11]	Garn Conover:	litterally!
[15:11]	Benjamin Linden:	Garn, try clicking on a chair to get out of the wall
[15:12]	Jacek Antonelli:	Poof!
[15:12]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hi there, puppy!
[15:12]	Garn Conover nuzzles Jacek
[15:12]	Benjamin Linden:	wow, cool av Garn
[15:12]	Asriazh Frye:	eeep! a hellhound landed on me o-o;;
[15:12]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe
[15:12]	Garn Conover:	allo all :)
[15:12]	Jacek Antonelli:	A jelly and a hellhound with wings... only in SL office hours!
[15:12]	Yuu Nakamichi:	Hi garn
[15:12]	Asriazh Frye:	hihi garny ^^
[15:13]	Benjamin Linden:	yikes I'm getting some really bad rendering effects
[15:13]	Garn Conover:	allo Asriazh!
[15:13]	Garn Conover looks inncoent
[15:13]	Benjamin Linden:	Kippie, did you have some follow-up questions for the group?
[15:13]	Garn Conover:	i'm the one w/ the 7k render cost
[15:13]	Malbers Linden:	Yeah, I'm still waiting ofr parts of Garn to rez
[15:13]	Yuu Nakamichi:	;p
[15:13]	Dirk Talamasca:	Hiya Benjamin
[15:13]	Benjamin Linden:	hi Dirk
[15:14]	Kippie Friedkin:	I didn't come with anything specific. Just here in case anything related comes up that I can cover. :)
[15:14]	Asriazh Frye:	a rendering diet so your doggy AV wont get fat, garn?
[15:14]	Dirk Talamasca:	great to see you again
[15:14]	Benjamin Linden:	which wiki page were you referencing Jacek?
[15:14]	Garn Conover:	only 960 prims Malbers!
[15:14]	Jacek Antonelli:	I'll grab a link
[15:14]	Yuu Nakamichi:	heh
[15:14]	Jacek Antonelli:	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Talk:Landmarks_and_Navigation_Project
[15:14]	Garn Conover:	too many griefers to eat
[15:15]	Benjamin Linden:	hmm public wiki is very slow as usual
[15:15]	Jacek Antonelli:	taggable landmarks sounds really good, and a way to access them from the web (especially with an API for custom apps) would be really cool
[15:15]	Simon Kline puts some more coins in the wiki to make it go
[15:15]	Kippie Friedkin:	There seems to be definite interest in a web-based tagging solution for landmarks.
[15:15]	Benjamin Linden:	this is a good comment
[15:15]	Benjamin Linden:	I agree that tags would be ideal
[15:15]	Kippie Friedkin:	Gotta say I'm a big fan of that idea
[15:16]	Benjamin Linden:	but it may be outside the scope of what we can get done in this iteration
[15:16]	Benjamin Linden:	ideally we'd like to extend tagging to all aspects of SL
[15:16]	Benjamin Linden:	locations, objects, people, etc.
[15:16]	Benjamin Linden:	but that's a much bigger task
[15:16]	Trinity Coulter:	we could tag Garn and release him into the wild
[15:16]	Benjamin Linden:	and we want to do it in a consistent way
[15:16]	Stephany Linden:	/ yes Benjamin - it's headed in that general direction eventually, I think
[15:16]	Benjamin Linden:	lol Trinity
[15:16]	Kitty Barnett:	lol
[15:16]	Jacek Antonelli:	Although I'm concerned if it would mean getting rid of landmarks as inventory items -- which can be passed around, packaged with products, embedded in notecards, and so on
[15:16]	Garn Conover:	:P:P:P
[15:16]	Kippie Friedkin:	yeah...but it's a good direction to be thinking about moving forward
[15:17]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehehe
[15:17]	Benjamin Linden:	Jacek, I believe the plan is to keep them as inventory items, but I don't want to speak for kippie
[15:17]	Benjamin Linden:	Stephany, did you have something to chat with the group about?
[15:18]	Jacek Antonelli:	(I guess that's my main concern with the whole LM&N project... improving functionality without getting rid of ways that they are used now. Both LMs and Picks come to mind)
[15:18]	Stephany Linden:	Nothing in particular, no.
[15:18]	Kitty Barnett:	if tags are embedded and passed around on inventory transfer please don't make them "no mod"... *already hates not being able to rename no-mod items :o*
[15:18]	Stephany Linden:	Just here to address whatever I can. Plus I missed last week. :-)
[15:18]	Benjamin Linden:	making up for lost time :-)
[15:18]	Kippie Friedkin:	I agree, Jacek. I think, in the short term, Landmarks will stay as an inventory item, maybe just managed in a separate floater.
[15:18]	Dirk Talamasca:	I agree that it must be consistent.. You may wind up with different systems to handle different aspects of tagging and that is crazy
[15:18]	Yuu Nakamichi:	I hear you kitty
[15:18]	Jolt Tank:	Would be nice if there was a way to find dupes of landmarks
[15:19]	Jacek Antonelli:	Cool, Kippie
[15:19]	Jacek Antonelli:	Oooh, RC5 is finished downloading. Okay, nobody say anything or move or even breathe until I get back!
[15:19]	Kippie Friedkin:	hehe
[15:19]	Kippie Friedkin:	good luck!
[15:19]	Kitty Barnett:	lol
[15:19]	Dirk Talamasca:	OMG
[15:19]	Garn Conover:	RC5?
[15:19]	Garn Conover:	:O
[15:19]	Benjamin Linden:	ah setting my graphics settings to Low makes everything ok
[15:20]	Benjamin Linden:	I guess I don't have a very good graphics card :-)
[15:20]	Dirk Talamasca:	I hope it fixes that bug that makes me spend money on crap I have no business buying.
[15:20]	Jolt Tank:	Hehehe..
[15:20]	Stephany Linden:	Ben mine melted last week, mind you
[15:20]	Stephany Linden:	a wilted little graphics card, it was
[15:20]	Benjamin Linden:	oh yes, fun!
[15:20]	Jolt Tank:	Speaking of graphic cards....
[15:20]	Kippie Friedkin:	Ouch!
[15:20]	Garn Conover:	ok so now to dl RC5 and replace my interfact w/ Retro :)
[15:20]	Jacek Antonelli:	Okay, you can resume homeostasis now
[15:20]	Yuu Nakamichi:	yes
[15:20]	Yuu Nakamichi:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-6839
[15:20]	Asriazh Frye:	did the rendering change too in comparison to the non RC clients? it seems to me like a lot of recoding regarding openGL was done.. and shaders got tweaked too, it seems
[15:21]	Garn Conover:	they need to send group msgs abotu these RC updates
[15:21]	Benjamin Linden:	yes I think that's right Asriazh
[15:21]	Yuu Nakamichi:	I upgraded to a new driver and 1.19 as well as 1.20 have trouble..
[15:21]	Benjamin Linden:	wow your name is hard to spel!
[15:21]	Jolt Tank:	Theres actually a longstanding issue with ATI cards that has to do with font rendering/scaling which can be a real PITA that is still vexing the SL client..
[15:21]	Benjamin Linden:	hi kooky
[15:21]	Kooky Jetaime:	hi
[15:21]	Stephany Linden:	There's also a problem with Mac firmware updates
[15:21]	Asriazh Frye:	sorry ^^; just call me asri ^_~ thats way easier
[15:22]	Kooky Jetaime:	wow, half the building is missing
[15:22]	Garn Conover:	i been tempted to call her Azri a few times
[15:22]	Benjamin Linden:	ok asri :-)
[15:22]	Jolt Tank:	VWR-3947
[15:22]	Asriazh Frye:	^_^
[15:22]	Benjamin Linden:	does anyone have questions or concerns they'd like to discuss?
[15:22]	Benjamin Linden:	or maybe a cool new design idea?
[15:22]	Benjamin Linden:	is Felix Duesenburg here by any chance?
[15:23]	Kooky Jetaime:	I'll pitch my idea BEn
[15:23]	Benjamin Linden:	nope, don't see him
[15:23]	Kooky Jetaime:	I've pitched it a few other places, and the lidnens seem to go, "Mmm,... Fascinating....."
[15:23]	Benjamin Linden:	ok Kooky, shoot
[15:23]	Kooky Jetaime:	Basically its a "Stoplight" indicator, put up near the clock. Red, Yellow, Green (And maybe Blue?). Green, all's well. Blue, Intermitteant problems or other Grid instability, keep doing things as you want (good for during rolling reboot times), Yellow Grid Instability, stop transactions until further notice, Red Grid on lockdown, logins now disabled. Sit tight while we beat the grid, and nothing, which would be grid down, forced logouts. thats from LL to the Users.. Now the other half is
[15:23]	Kooky Jetaime:	When Users start seeing problems, they click on the stoplight, which sends a quick HTTP PUT message, with SL Login Name, Current Location. Simply a "Problem seen" The button only allows 1 press per XX minutes (say 15-20, only works during Green(maybe and blue) LL collects these, and if you get say more than ## (Say 5000) within YY minutes (say 5 minutes) an alert goes off for DNOC indicating there is something so start checking diagnostics.
[15:23]	Jolt Tank:	<-Ati issue and Spacenav questions/ideas
[15:24]	Kooky Jetaime:	And it would be up near the clock.
[15:24]	Asriazh Frye:	hmm, the turorial content doesnt fit its window. could this be cause i changed the UI size to 0.95?
[15:24]	Jacek Antonelli:	Mmmm... fascinating....
[15:24]	Trinity Coulter:	that sounds a lot like what Simon is making as a HUD
[15:24]	Yuu Nakamichi:	;p
[15:24]	Kitty Barnett had a suggestion for something to add to the "lag meter" (although preferably more visible than that)
[15:24]	Kooky Jetaime:	Jacek - sure your not a linden in hiding?
[15:24]	Dirk Talamasca:	I think everyone wants to see skinning incorporated soon. Hopefully with a system that would allow residents to create and post variations that can be downloaded and installed on the fly.
[15:24]	Kooky Jetaime:	Trin, this could be done as a hud initially too...
[15:25]	Asriazh Frye:	isnt it? things as fascinating like these get discussed at office hours all the time. thats why i try to attend as many as possible ^_~
[15:25]	Jacek Antonelli:	Kooky: not yet :P
[15:25]	Eshi Otawara:	skinning would be awesome
[15:25]	Trinity Coulter:	skinning is probably like at the bottom of the list to me
[15:25]	McCabe Maxsted:	the.. what's it called. The two bars in the upper right that mysteriously vanished and are now back. They're still broken
[15:25]	Benjamin Linden:	I think that's an interesting idea Kooky
[15:25]	Benjamin Linden:	I like the idea of helping residents report problems
[15:25]	Trinity Coulter:	i would much rather just see SL not crash or a zillion other things
[15:25]	Kooky Jetaime:	Ben - So did Prospero
[15:25]	Benjamin Linden:	this solutions seems pretty binary though
[15:25]	Kooky Jetaime:	Since we are on the front line.
[15:26]	Felix Duesenburg:	Hello... couldn't login any earlier
[15:26]	Benjamin Linden:	"problem" could be so many things
[15:26]	Garn Conover:	RC5- Retro here we go!
[15:26]	Kooky Jetaime:	Ben - Binary is good.. Binary is hard to break
[15:26]	Benjamin Linden:	oh hi Felix, I was looking for you earlier
[15:26]	Jolt Tank:	..its either on or off
[15:26]	Kooky Jetaime:	But you could add a Multiple-choice option.. the key is to KISS
[15:26]	Kooky Jetaime:	zero complexity to promote use
[15:26]	Felix Duesenburg:	was difficult getting connection until just now
[15:26]	Kooky Jetaime:	about the time you turn it into the AR form, noone would use it.
[15:26]	Jacek Antonelli:	indeed
[15:27]	Benjamin Linden:	AR?
[15:27]	Garn Conover:	gah spacenav disables
[15:27]	Jacek Antonelli:	abuse report
[15:27]	Benjamin Linden:	I love my spacenav!
[15:27]	Benjamin Linden:	oh yes
[15:27]	Garn Conover:	same
[15:27]	Kitty Barnett:	any stuck pending downloads/uploads creates a lot of issues... people think they lost inventory when it won't fetch since it's stuck and panic... and it's a bad time to rez anything then either... or do any sort of asset operation :o the viewer already tracks it on the statistics window so basically something a bit more accessible and easier to interpret
[15:27]	Kooky Jetaime:	If you have 5K residents all say "Theres a problem" within 3 minutes, its going to be somewhat easy to find I'm thinking
[15:27]	Jolt Tank:	I absolutely cant stand my spacenav in SL
[15:27]	Garn Conover:	but upgrading client disabled it so i had to reset it
[15:27]	Kooky Jetaime:	I've actually had people tell me they didn't realize group spamming could be AR'ed.
[15:27]	Benjamin Linden:	I suspect there are 5k residents having problems of some sort at any given time :-)
[15:27]	Garn Conover:	i was wondering why flycam wasn't wporkin
[15:27]	Dirk Talamasca:	skinnin g can be very important for residents who have impaired vision.. plus there are just so many people that are nagging over it.. It doesn't bother me at all
[15:27]	Jacek Antonelli:	(I love my spacenav too.... I just wish I could use it... no love for Linux users :( )
[15:28]	Kippie Friedkin:	I'm still deciding whether to order my SpaceNav. I've heard a lot of mixed reviews.
[15:28]	Trinity Coulter:	oh that's a great point Dirk
[15:28]	Kooky Jetaime:	Ben, its just a number.... LL could establish a guideline threshold
[15:28]	Garn Conover:	i like inverting it upside down hehe
[15:28]	Jolt Tank:	Every time i try to move forward i end up camming up or down
[15:28]	Benjamin Linden:	right Kooky, I do think if we monitor trends it could work
[15:28]	Jolt Tank:	..and it ignores the Spacenav control panel
[15:28]	Kooky Jetaime:	ie: 60%, minimum 10 users, of 1 sim report a problem, impliment investigation of that sim.
[15:28]	Benjamin Linden:	we do something similar with the resident satisfaction meter
[15:28]	Benjamin Linden:	of course that only appears at login
[15:29]	Kooky Jetaime:	If 20% of the grid online users say theres a problem, start checking "Hotspots" and work backwards.
[15:29]	Yuu Nakamichi:	Jolt: have you seen VWR-6432
[15:29]	Kippie Friedkin:	hmmm..interesting
[15:29]	Kitty Barnett:	people aren't terribly great at pinning down what's actually wrong though
[15:29]	Jacek Antonelli:	Another point in favor of a general "something is wrong" button
[15:30]	Kooky Jetaime:	Kitty - thats why I suggest initially just ahving "Alert" button.. no reasoning behind it
[15:30]	Yuu Nakamichi:	I'd love to see the mod keys used with SpaceNv in some way
[15:30]	Kooky Jetaime:	You could have a "Somethings WRong" and maybe have a multiple choice for those who can use it?
[15:30]	Garn Conover:	my lag is from textures, i just havent figured out how to limit them :)
[15:30]	Jolt Tank:	Yuu no.. but i know i cant calibrate the Spaenav in SL, it seems overly sensitive as default, and the LED doesnt turn on ;)
[15:30]	Kitty Barnett:	always stare at the floor :p
[15:30]	Asriazh Frye:	i always wondered... are the linden office hours hidden inside the wiki on pupose? i never met a "regular" resident who knew about these
[15:30]	Garn Conover:	i wish my LED was red
[15:30]	Dirk Talamasca:	You can't do that. Too many people would smack the button just to be an ass
[15:31]	Kooky Jetaime:	Dirk -0 thats why it has a built in limit, one press per time period
[15:31]	Kippie Friedkin:	Asriazh: I think that's because the majority of residents are looking at the WIKI
[15:31]	Asriazh Frye:	so make the office hours more accessible?
[15:31]	Benjamin Linden:	I had the same problem with my spacenav LED but if you open the control panel it should turn on
[15:31]	Kitty Barnett:	if everyone know about office hours, every hour would be nothing be "fix SL" shouting :o lol
[15:31]	Kooky Jetaime:	In addition, something else I had considered farther down the line is a "weighting" system.. Those who accurately report problems, over time become more "Trustworthy" Reporters.. those who just thwawp the button eventually become useless, and don't even register.
[15:31]	Benjamin Linden:	Asri, I agree we need to do a better job reaching out to new residents
[15:32]	Jacek Antonelli's eyes are watering and feels a headache coming on from RC5 Dazzle skin... :'(
[15:32]	Benjamin Linden:	that sounds complicated, Kooky, but it probably would help make the data more valid
[15:32]	Kitty Barnett:	if your problem is sim local though, but the grid is fine... is that reliable or not?
[15:32]	Eshi Otawara:	/running boys and girls! :) Nice seeing/meeting you
[15:32]	Garn Conover:	Jacek ! go Retro
[15:32]	Dirk Talamasca:	That would be great Kooky but that information has to be stored somewhere. How much more load would that impose?
[15:32]	Stephany Linden:	/ bye Eshi!
[15:32]	Eshi Otawara:	/who wants to buy my seat? :D
[15:33]	Kooky Jetaime:	Dirk - the beauty of it, if its implimented like I was thinking
[15:33]	Asriazh Frye:	its about communication. often people complain about things, not knowing what goes on behind the scenes. getting this across to them would help tremendously, i think. making SL more transparent would help
[15:33]	Garn Conover:	http://www.rpgstats.com/SL/Dazzle-Retro.zip
[15:33]	Kooky Jetaime:	Its just a HTTP PUT somewhere, doesn't have to even hit the sim/central database
[15:33]	Trinity Coulter:	i will give you all my rating points for that seat
[15:33]	Jacek Antonelli:	Garn: I think I'll do that, but I want to see if I can actually last a whole hour of Dazzle
[15:33]	Eshi Otawara:	hop on doll
[15:33]	Kooky Jetaime:	You could run it through the sim as a security measure.
[15:33]	Garn Conover:	LL should use the Retro textures i think
[15:34]	Kooky Jetaime:	For the upstream, we're talking 256 bytes per avatar for a report, or less
[15:34]	Garn Conover:	im not a fan of the colour file but the textures are 10x better
[15:34]	Benjamin Linden:	lol, oh Jacek
[15:34]	McCabe Maxsted:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Viewer_Skins there's a few other ones to choose from too
[15:34]	Benjamin Linden:	you have to give it a few days :-)
[15:34]	Kooky Jetaime:	Avi Name, Location, Hex code for specific report (if implimented)
[15:34]	Jacek Antonelli:	I better write my will before I try it for a few days >_<
[15:34]	Benjamin Linden:	lol
[15:34]	Kooky Jetaime:	Downstream would just be from central to sims (1 byte, piggybacked on another package)
[15:35]	Garn Conover:	McCabe is Retro the darker one or the main client one?
[15:35]	Kooky Jetaime:	and sims to clients, so neglagable overhead.
[15:35]	Benjamin Linden:	we're in the beginning stages of a project to create a long-range vision for the Viewer UI
[15:35]	Benjamin Linden:	I was hoping we could brainstorm for a few minutes some ways that we can gather resident input into this process
[15:35]	Jacek Antonelli:	Sure
[15:36]	McCabe Maxsted:	awesome
[15:36]	Benjamin Linden:	office hours are great but as Asri points out, that only gets a small fraction of users
[15:36]	Jolt Tank:	Have some examples of different possible UI's and see how usable they are?
[15:36]	Kooky Jetaime:	I know there is a lot of talk Ben, at other hours RE Dazzle
[15:36]	Benjamin Linden:	and generally pretty advanced users at that
[15:36]	Dirk Talamasca:	I think it is getting MUCH better Benjamin.. Many of the really useful tools are now much easier to find and keystroke combo additions are good as well
[15:36]	Felix Duesenburg:	is anyone aware of the patch that matthew dowd submitted, that lets you change the skin?
[15:37]	Kippie Friedkin:	Do we just need to publicize the WIKI more, direct people to it?
[15:37]	Jacek Antonelli:	I'm aware of it Felix, and been meaning to try it out
[15:37]	McCabe Maxsted:	we still need a skinning forum
[15:37]	Trinity Coulter:	well the wiki is boring
[15:37]	Asriazh Frye:	you cant make everyone happy with the skin you chose to use. but at least with dazzle people get the choice to make their UI look like however they want to
[15:37]	Trinity Coulter:	SL.... 3D, neat cool, wiki, plain, blah texty
[15:37]	Kippie Friedkin:	The great thing about the WIKI is that any registered resident could upload and show design ideas or concepts. And WIKI editing makes it easy to add comments and feedback
[15:37]	Kitty Barnett:	quite a lot of people I know know about office hours :o they just think they're boring lol
[15:38]	Kooky Jetaime:	heheh My girls all think office hours are boring
[15:38]	Felix Duesenburg:	boring? it just can happen that the sim is full if you're late ;)
[15:38]	McCabe Maxsted:	I've been trying to make up different UIs, starting with the toolbar. The hardest thing I've run across is that there's no documetnation, so it's just figuring stuff out as I go
[15:38]	Garn Conover:	i could go for a black and red version :D
[15:38]	McCabe Maxsted:	how about releasing some we can try things out and experiment easier?
[15:38]	Benjamin Linden:	I do like the idea of using the wiki to communicate and discuss concepts
[15:38]	Benjamin Linden:	Stephany's doing that with the Landmarks project, along with Vectorform
[15:39]	Benjamin Linden:	do you mean like a firstlook McCabe?
[15:39]	Benjamin Linden:	Dirk, I'm glad you like the UI improvements
[15:39]	Kippie Friedkin:	I've played around with design concepts for the UI in the past, and I'd wager that other residents have done the same (those who care about this sort of thing)
[15:40]	McCabe Maxsted:	I mean like user skins that can people can use that aren't just recolors, but changes in layout and perhaps functionality, if we can get more control over the ui components
[15:40]	Kippie Friedkin:	Maybe we could create a future design ideas page and start sharing this stuff.
[15:40]	Kitty Barnett:	first thing I do with every RC is revert the Tools menu :o
[15:40]	Yuu Nakamichi:	how would you rate participation on the blog, say, compared to the wiki, Ben?
[15:40]	Benjamin Linden:	what about surveys? what would be a good representative group of users to send a survey to?
[15:40]	Trinity Coulter:	Office Hour attendees and their friends
[15:40]	Benjamin Linden:	I think that's a great idea Kippie
[15:40]	Jolt Tank:	Users who have been around a bit...
[15:40]	Yuu Nakamichi:	--> Michael's surveyabout Roadworks
[15:40]	Dirk Talamasca:	It is tough to get non-advanced users to try out the new UIs in the RCs and FirstLook. Advanced users are actively seeking those applications wheras convincing other residents that this is in the long run, beneficial to them is a slow sell. How can we improve that?
[15:40]	Felix Duesenburg:	how about searching throught the groups and try to find relevant ones
[15:40]	McCabe Maxsted:	what would we survey? mockups?
[15:40]	Stephany Linden:	/ If I dare say so, the blog seems to be a little less balanced than lists, PJIRA, and pwiki participation
[15:41]	Stephany Linden:	we see more variety on the PJIRA and pwiki
[15:41]	Benjamin Linden:	And I know I've been promising a user experience email list for a while. I still plan to get it made!
[15:41]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehehe
[15:41]	McCabe Maxsted nudges benjamin
[15:41]	Jacek Antonelli:	:D
[15:41]	Jacek Antonelli:	*poke, prod*
[15:41]	Benjamin Linden:	lol
[15:42]	Kippie Friedkin:	How about profiling different types of users to send surveys out to? Builders, store owners, chatters, club/event participants, explorers...
[15:42]	Garn Conover gives a cold nose
[15:42]	Kippie Friedkin:	Then you can tailor specific questions to residents in the way they use the Viewer.
[15:42]	Trinity Coulter:	well who says you have to have new UI's, really?
[15:42]	Benjamin Linden:	how could we get people into those buckets, Kippie? self-selection?
[15:43]	Kippie Friedkin:	Heh, good question...
[15:43]	Marv Rayner:	I would certainly volunteer.
[15:43]	Kippie Friedkin:	A survey would help do that...a survey to create a survery :)
[15:43]	Jolt Tank:	You dont want to make it elitist... self-selection works for now
[15:43]	Benjamin Linden:	Trinity, every time SL is montioned in the press we get lambasted about how hard it is to use
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli:	Set NSA Linden to watch their every move and IM and determine their interests. Muahahaha!
[15:43]	Kitty Barnett:	Dirk-one problem with "regular" residents using an RC is that when they run into trouble they get all frustrated and stuck... comes up on the forums again and again... the fact that they can just go back to the main viewer is something they just don't seem to get :o
[15:43]	McCabe Maxsted:	I'd much rather have tools out there where say advanced users can create different aspects of the ui to suit their tastes; say a builder doesn't like something, they can change it and release it so other builders can try it out, and their input can further improve on it, and get a hands on feel for what's working and what's not
[15:43]	Trinity Coulter:	what do people say is hard to use about SL, Ben?
[15:43]	Jolt Tank:	Heh i hope an RC fixes more things than it breaks usually...
[15:43]	Dirk Talamasca:	Well when about 40% of the press coverage related to businesses entering in SL mention SL's learning curve.. you really have to take a look at the UI to see if you can straighten that curve out a bit..
[15:44]	Benjamin Linden:	McCabe, we're definitely moving in that direction
[15:44]	Garn Conover:	deletign the release key button is my fav
[15:44]	Kitty Barnett:	I don't think UI is difficult to grasp, it's probably SL that's difficult to grasp :o
[15:44]	Felix Duesenburg:	i guess the main problem is that those people who say it's hard to use often cannot even specify what aspect exactly gives them pro blems
[15:44]	Benjamin Linden:	the custom skins popping up are evidence of that
[15:44]	Trinity Coulter:	yes, i agree with Kitty there
[15:44]	Asriazh Frye:	honestly, when i see the survey at SL start, i just click it away. its too generic "has your SL experienced improved or got worse?" i dont know, i dont feel like it adresses me personally. offering a survey on the official SL website or blog might have a different effect on me
[15:44]	Benjamin Linden:	obviously we have a ways to go
[15:44]	Jolt Tank:	movement is intuitive as far as the keyboard goes
[15:44]	Marv Rayner:	I don't think either are difficult to grasp.
[15:44]	McCabe Maxsted:	documentation please. Seriously
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli:	Documentation is always nice
[15:45]	Benjamin Linden:	I agree, Kitty, I think it's a combination of both
[15:45]	Kippie Friedkin:	Heh, what I wouldn't give to get into that code and do some documenting :) I'm a nerd.
[15:45]	McCabe Maxsted:	there's no documentation out there for people who want to play with things to start playing, except for button layouts
[15:45]	Trinity Coulter:	well you could have a "simple" mode and "advanced" mode
[15:45]	Benjamin Linden:	I think there are ways the UI could help people better understand SL
[15:45]	Malbers Linden:	It is alwaysa bit dubious to ask experts about the learning curve (as you have all gotten through it too long ago)
[15:45]	Kitty Barnett:	it's like dropping someone in front of a browser when they've never used the internet before... there's a huge learning curve there too
[15:45]	Kooky Jetaime:	Gatto -
[15:45]	Benjamin Linden:	good point Malbers
[15:45]	Kooky Jetaime:	we can hear you
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli:	When I was writing the progress bar XUI-fication, I had to wade through about 10 source files to get an understanding of how one class worked
[15:45]	Kooky Jetaime:	bored?
[15:46]	Jolt Tank:	Well cuz we know how things work now, we can see things that couuld be fixed that would help people starting out
[15:46]	Dirk Talamasca:	But many, many do and that is the art and science of developing a more intuitive UI. Sure, we can reasonably expect some residents to "get it" but when a great deal of them still don't... you try new things
[15:46]	Kooky Jetaime:	can't understand a thing your saying.
[15:46]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, we definitely need to do a better job of documenting the source code
[15:46]	Benjamin Linden:	I was just bringing up my anti-griefing tools :-)
[15:47]	Felix Duesenburg:	lol... developers hate writing docs. comments are better debugging than doc tools ;)
[15:47]	Trinity Coulter:	don't you feel that the concept of SL is hard for people tho?
[15:47]	Trinity Coulter:	its not a "game"
[15:47]	Kippie Friedkin:	But, thre are tools that help developers write those docs....and generate docs using comments
[15:47]	Trinity Coulter:	people come in thinking it is
[15:47]	Jacek Antonelli:	Regarding surveys -- there's always the issue, with self-selected/volunteer surveys, that the people who are inclined to answer a survey, don't necessarily reflect the general opinion. Same issue of polling just people who go to office hours
[15:47]	Trinity Coulter:	or they come in with other preconceptions
[15:48]	Jolt Tank:	..and if you call SL 3d chat.. people oversimplify it
[15:48]	Kitty Barnett:	and older residents overwhelm newbies with information they don't need... freebies/camping/building/UI "hacks" in the Advanced menu... all of that adds up to much confusion but it's information overload
[15:48]	Malbers Linden:	In many ways, SL suffers from it's overwhelming freedoms
[15:48]	McCabe Maxsted:	this is kind of off topic, but why WAS the tools menu removed anyway?
[15:49]	McCabe Maxsted:	or hidden, rather
[15:49]	Felix Duesenburg:	i don't think you can call it any one name. chat, game, used for all sorts of things. it's just a platform, but that's too generic for some people to understand
[15:49]	Jolt Tank:	Actually getting freebies is a good way to get a person settled-in to SL
[15:49]	Kippie Friedkin:	Malbers...I agree. It's both the beauty and the beast of SL :)
[15:49]	Trinity Coulter:	yes, i have seen lots of people 5 minutes old being handed boxes upon boxes of freebies and notecards and just overwhelming the poor person
[15:49]	Jacek Antonelli:	Maybe if Mentors or Lindens on Help Island talked with incoming residents about how they feel about the UI, what's frustrating, etc.?
[15:49]	Jolt Tank:	they learn how to open a box and use whats in it
[15:49]	Malbers Linden:	Exactly Kippie
[15:49]	Kippie Friedkin:	Jacek: I've actually spent some time doing that on Orientation Island recently.
[15:49]	Malbers Linden:	As have I Jacek
[15:49]	Jacek Antonelli:	cool
[15:49]	Kitty Barnett:	McCabe-you can restore the tools menu in menu_viewer.xml... first thing I do with a new RC :o lol
[15:49]	Kippie Friedkin:	There are some simple things residents are looking for when they get started
[15:49]	McCabe Maxsted:	I know that. I was asking why it was hidden in the first place
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli listens intently to Kippie
[15:50]	McCabe Maxsted:	like what?
[15:50]	Garn Conover:	money :)
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli:	lol Garn
[15:50]	Kippie Friedkin:	Most frequently, I'm asked how to fly, how to change outfits, how to customize appearances, and the biggest question and frustration is "Where do I go now?"
[15:50]	Felix Duesenburg:	lol
[15:50]	Jolt Tank:	I really wish there was more moderation in the Help/OI's.. there really need to be *staff* not just mentors.. and the rules on harassment and abuse should be strickter than the mainland
[15:50]	Kooky Jetaime:	yep
[15:50]	Benjamin Linden:	I agree that many people show up not understanding what secondlife is
[15:50]	Kooky Jetaime:	thats the most common question
[15:50]	Kooky Jetaime:	"What now?"
[15:50]	Kippie Friedkin:	You find a lot of residents walking around OIs and thinking that's all there is to Second Life.
[15:51]	Garn Conover:	i like how do i get elsewhere? (from HI)
[15:51]	Stephany Linden:	/ We ARE working on the "what do I do now" problem
[15:51]	Jolt Tank:	Seeing a new user be sexually harassed is not a good first experience,
[15:51]	Stephany Linden:	/ and how to elevate things happening "now"
[15:51]	McCabe Maxsted:	could this be something better addressed on the secondlife.com webpage?
[15:51]	Asriazh Frye:	usually people like to discover things on their own and mentors trying to push their help on them just scare them away. so making the initial learning curve they have to climb not as steep, by creating a simple and an advanced UI mode would be a good idea, i guess
[15:51]	Jaelah Jolles gave you Need Your Help.
[15:51]	Felix Duesenburg:	i had to mute the SL Deutschland (Germany) group because of that... tons of that sort cluttering the screen all the time. don't know how to press F1
[15:51]	Kitty Barnett would guess "Showcase" is meant to address the "what now? what's something to do?" issue?
[15:51]	Stephany Linden:	/ Showcase is part of it
[15:51]	Trinity Coulter:	yes, sometimes Mentors get a little overexcited with a new person
[15:51]	Garn Conover:	ok i need to go clean up a classroom for an SL class cya all :)
[15:51]	Jacek Antonelli:	Take care, Garn! *huggles*
[15:51]	McCabe Maxsted:	see ya garn
[15:51]	Malbers Linden:	Bye Garn
[15:51]	Stephany Linden:	/ but we want to do better at saying "what's happening IW at this moment that you can do"
[15:52]	Kippie Friedkin:	I've got an idea, I'm proposing in the LM project to help with that. But I fear it will have to put off till later :)
[15:52]	Kippie Friedkin:	Cya Garn!
[15:52]	Asriazh Frye:	bye garny ^^/ pats the helldoggie*
[15:52]	Stephany Linden:	/ maybe not kippie! ;-)
[15:52]	Kippie Friedkin:	Hehe
[15:52]	Benjamin Linden:	McCabe, the tools menu was removed because it was felt that it overwhelmed new users
[15:52]	Benjamin Linden:	as we're discussing here
[15:52]	Benjamin Linden:	removed=hidden
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli:	Whoa. I didn't even notice that
[15:53]	Asriazh Frye:	so im all for a normal andadvanced UI mode ^^
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli:	(Not that I'd have used it at office hours)
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli:	Umm... how do I get it back? *pokes around*
[15:53]	Marv Rayner:	I have been frustrated with the minimum vertical size of the Communicate window since the introduction of voice with the 1.18 series viewers. At minimum vertical settings, it still takes over one quarter of the vertical height of the scrren at 1280 x 1024, which for me, makes it almost impossible to do anything else while having the window open. Is there any possibility of allowing us to resize it smaller, so it doens't take up so much of the scrren and make it so difficult ot multi-task? The Communicate window size is probably my biggest issue with the SL client right now--that and non-flashing tabs for different IM windows.
[15:53]	McCabe Maxsted:	I use ctrl-3
[15:53]	Kitty Barnett:	posted a work-around for it on the JIRA issue, Jacek :o
[15:54]	Benjamin Linden:	Marv, if you pop the windows out of the communicate window, some can be sized down smaller
[15:54]	Dirk Talamasca:	I totally agree Stephany.. Nee residents want to get involved in something engaging right away. It is really one of the biggest and hardest questions to answer as a Mentor. There is so much and residents have such varied interests. Recommending something you enjoy does not always suit everyones taste
[15:54]	Dirk Talamasca:	New*
[15:54]	Marv Rayner:	Then you have a separate window for each IM, which itself becomes unusable.
[15:54]	Jacek Antonelli:	Ah, it only appears while the build floater is open? Weird.
[15:54]	McCabe Maxsted:	it does create some itneresting inconsistencies though, having it hidden. I'd really like it to not auto hide if we have the advanced menu open though. A simple and more advanced ui would be nice to have
[15:54]	Kooky Jetaime:	ok, have someone to see
[15:54]	Stephany Linden:	/ Yes Dirk - it's also not easy to determine what an "event" is
[15:55]	Stephany Linden:	/ is it a cluster of people? That could violate privacy, to send others in
[15:55]	Kooky Jetaime:	I really need to get back to rewriting the menus
[15:55]	Trinity Coulter:	SL does need to have more social planning
[15:55]	Stephany Linden:	/ is it ONLY a formally posted event? etc.
[15:55]	Trinity Coulter:	social event coordinators
[15:55]	Kooky Jetaime:	Stephany, why do you keep saying /?
[15:55]	Stephany Linden:	/ +1 Trinity
[15:55]	Stephany Linden:	/ it stops the typing sound no?
[15:55]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe
[15:55]	Stephany Linden:	/ for ME
[15:55]	Kooky Jetaime:	Advanced, Debug Settings, "PlayTypingAnim" set to false
[15:55]	McCabe Maxsted:	you can disable that in the debug settings too if you'd like
[15:55]	Kippie Friedkin:	ha
[15:55]	Trinity Coulter:	lots of people improve their look and avie, and then what do they do?
[15:55]	Stephany Linden:	/ though I'm playing elvis crespo so I can't hear much else ;-)
[15:56]	Kooky Jetaime:	for everyone.
[15:56]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe kooky beat me to it
[15:56]	Dirk Talamasca:	Yes and unfortunately "events" can still be gamed to some extent... An "event" where you are selling clothing at 40% off is a classified ad, not an "event"
[15:56]	Kitty Barnett:	you might be able to make a case for some currently persisting settings that cause a lot confusing... have no idea how, but turning on "Show Updates" is so common :o or the "Beacons Always On" setting, and people have no idea how to get rid of it
[15:56]	Stephany Linden:	/ right Dirk
[15:56]	Benjamin Linden:	ok folks I have to run to another meeting, I think this would be an interesting topic to continue with next week
[15:56]	Felix Duesenburg:	but it also switches off the typing notification in im. i've received complaints about that and turned it back on ;)
[15:56]	McCabe Maxsted:	the event listing is full of "events", heh
[15:56]	Stephany Linden:	/ Agreed
[15:56]	Kippie Friedkin:	So true, Dirk.
[15:56]	Benjamin Linden:	Stephany, would you like to make next week's meeting about "what now?"
[15:56]	Jacek Antonelli:	I prefer setting "UISndTyping" to a blank string -- that way it gets rid of the typing sound on my computer, for everybody
[15:56]	Kooky Jetaime:	Felix - no
[15:56]	Stephany Linden:	/ We can definitely PLEASE talk about this next week
[15:56]	Stephany Linden:	YES BEN
[15:56]	Stephany Linden:	:-)
[15:56]	Kooky Jetaime:	Felix - It still happens for me.
[15:56]	Kippie Friedkin:	That sounds like a good one!
[15:56]	Benjamin Linden:	ok sounds good. bye all, see you next week!
[15:56]	Stephany Linden:	/ great everybody - thank you so much!
[15:57]	Kippie Friedkin marks the calendar
[15:57]	Felix Duesenburg:	really? a recent chat partner told me they didn't get notified, then i turned the setting and it worked again
[15:57]	Jacek Antonelli:	Take care, all!
[15:57]	Asriazh Frye:	bye ben, and try to become a better linden than you already are ^_~ *lol*
[15:57]	Jolt Tank:	Seeing the turn off typing noise in the sound menu would be good..
[15:57]	Stephany Linden:	/ lol
[15:57]	Kippie Friedkin:	Cheers, all
[15:57]	Malbers Linden:	bye
[15:57]	Dirk Talamasca:	take care Stephany! Bye Benjamin, Malbers!