User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2008 07 01

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[11:04]	Creem Pye:	ah at the estate level?
[11:04]	Arawn Spitteler:	Balls wouldn't drop
[11:04]	Pagan Bishop:	thought it was always that way for some reason
[11:04]	MSo Lambert:	Hi all
[11:04]	Pagan Bishop:	perhaps just because peopel usually turn them both off at the same time
[11:04]	Rex Cronon:	hi mso
[11:04]	Creem Pye:	howdy
[11:04]	RacerX Gullwing:	Were still waiting for a rollout that fixes SVC-2511 the snails still look like popcorn flying through the push device without colliding till there on there way down through it so is the rollout that fixes this comming this week before saturday? or did it already happen and not effect our problem?
[11:05]	Rex Cronon:	hello andrew
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	Hello, I'm back... sorta.
[11:05]	Arawn Spitteler:	Welcome Back
[11:05]	RacerX Gullwing:	hi
[11:05]	RacerX Gullwing:	Were still waiting for a rollout that fixes SVC-2511 the snails still look like popcorn flying through the push device without colliding till there on there way down through it so is the rollout that fixes this comming this week before saturday? or did it already happen and not effect our problem?
[11:05]	Andrew Linden:	I don't have sound working, and despite the fact that we aren't using voice chat... I feel slightly disconnected.
[11:05]	Arawn Spitteler:	RacerX can say that again
[11:05]	RacerX Gullwing:	Were still waiting for a rollout that fixes SVC-2511 the snails still look like popcorn flying through the push device without colliding till there on there way down through it so is the rollout that fixes this comming this week before saturday? or did it already happen and not effect our problem?
[11:06]	Creem Pye plays some mocking soundbites
[11:06]	RacerX Gullwing:	i got here early typed my questions in advance
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	I can't heeaaar yyyoooouuuu
[11:06]	RacerX Gullwing:	i'm texting
[11:06]	Arawn Spitteler doesn't hear the mockery, but has sound working
[11:06]	RacerX Gullwing:	Were still waiting for a rollout that fixes SVC-2511 the snails still look like popcorn flying through the push device without colliding till there on there way down through it so is the rollout that fixes this comming this week before saturday? or did it already happen and not effect our problem?
[11:06]	Pagan Bishop:	*tap tap tap tap tap*
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, so SVC-2511 is on RacerX's short list of important bugs. Got it.
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	I was supposed to be back from vacation yesterday, but didn't actually arrive home until yesterday night.
[11:07]	Andrew Linden:	so I'm catching up on stuff still this morning
[11:07]	Rex Cronon:	jet lag?
[11:08]	RacerX Gullwing:	i don't have a lot of time
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	Cg Linden says there are two bugs that were important to Residents in his office hours...
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	dunno the SVC #'s, but one I call "Cg's favorite bug... his chess set pieces don't always update correctly
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	and the other one is the "bullets sometimes don't collide with the avatar" bug
[11:09]	Creem Pye:	are the pieces prims in a linkset?
[11:09]	RacerX Gullwing:	ok so rollout comming or not ?
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, the chess pieces are prims in a linkset
[11:09]	Creem Pye:	ah, that's a windlight bug I think,
[11:09]	Creem Pye:	I have some airplanes with opening/closing canopies
[11:09]	RacerX Gullwing:	ok see if you can answer this one then
[11:09]	RacerX Gullwing:	if you could get this fixed that would help to https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-875 and 1179 with 135 votes no one assigned Created: 12/Jan/08 12:24 AM 7 months old says its major?
[11:09]	Creem Pye:	and sometimes windlight is lazy and won't draw the prim's updated position
[11:10]	RacerX Gullwing:	your breaking my balls
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	RacerX... rollout? As far as I know your priority-one bug has not been fixed yet, but I'm a little behind, so if someone else fixed it then maybe it is scheduled in a rollout
[11:10]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hi, Har- Leennnn
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	but I don't know the rollout schedule yet this week
[11:11]	RacerX Gullwing:	geez ok came here 2 weeks ago you said it was fixed and it would be in the next rollout
[11:11]	Arawn Spitteler's been seeing a lot of invisible people, lately, but that could be a viewer side
[11:11]	RacerX Gullwing:	guess you don't have a clue now thanks
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... lemme look at that jira item...
[11:12]	Creem Pye:	could it be the new Ruth, minus the green particles, Arawn?
[11:12]	Arawn Spitteler:	Probably
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2511
[11:12]	Arawn Spitteler:	I thought the Neo-Ruth was a cloud, though
[11:12]	Creem Pye:	wel particle cloud...
[11:13]	RacerX Gullwing:	yes says in progress now
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	SVC-2511 is NOT fixed RacerX. There was some other bug that was fixed right before I left... can't remember which one it was right now
[11:13]	RacerX Gullwing:	SVC-875 says fix pending
[11:13]	RacerX Gullwing:	but its been pending for months
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	I'll have to check my jira history
[11:14]	RacerX Gullwing:	1179 with 135 votes no one assigned Created: 12/Jan/08 12:24 AM 7 months old says its major?
[11:14]	RacerX Gullwing:	thats the show stopper at the future sim
[11:14]	RacerX Gullwing:	clangers invention and the snail races
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... I thought SVC-875 was fixed and deployed, but you're saying it is not.
[11:15]	RacerX Gullwing:	no one assigned and was reported when havok 4 was in beta
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	That is, whatever content is broken is still broken today?
[11:15]	RacerX Gullwing:	well if it is then it diodn't affect us
[11:16]	Arawn Spitteler:	Does it work in the H1 sim?
[11:16]	RacerX Gullwing:	horizontal push is not consistent
[11:16]	RacerX Gullwing:	yes it did
[11:16]	RacerX Gullwing:	worked great
[11:16]	RacerX Gullwing:	i sent you the link to the films
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, so specifically you're talking about SVC-1179
[11:16]	RacerX Gullwing:	sure lets fix that one
[11:17]	Rex Cronon:	i don't know if this happens to anybody else, but i sometimes fall through prims
[11:17]	RacerX Gullwing:	horizontal push is incoinsistent
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	As I recall, there was a bug that I did find that I thought fixed SVC-875, however no one supplied a faulty object for that bug as I recall... it has been a while for that onee.
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	There is a demo script for SVC-1179 which is good
[11:18]	RacerX Gullwing:	well i gave you objects 2 weeks ago that used to work in havok 1
[11:18]	RacerX Gullwing:	and be consistent
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	Right, for SVC-1179? I just assigned that to myself.
[11:18]	Andrew Linden:	It is on my list for this week.
[11:18]	RacerX Gullwing:	finally
[11:18]	RacerX Gullwing:	great thanks
[11:19]	RacerX Gullwing:	ok gotta go let me know how it goes
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	SVC-2511... unfortunately I tried to figure that one out right before I left for vacation without success.
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	I might need to revert back to some version where it was working right, then step forward in history until it fails.
[11:19]	Arawn Spitteler hopes the vacation was a success.
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	The few ideas I had as to what would cause that to happen were not fruitful.
[11:20]	RacerX Gullwing:	ok good whatever you gota do if you can fix that that would be great lota people hopping you will
[11:20]	RacerX Gullwing:	bye
[11:20]	Rex Cronon:	bye racerx
[11:21]	Imagination Baxton:	so
[11:21]	Imagination Baxton:	wats up
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, so I've got some high priority bugs to fix...
[11:21]	Imagination Baxton:	ok
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, anything else new?
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	I just got here.
[11:21]	MSo Lambert:	lol
[11:21]	Imagination Baxton:	idk
[11:22]	Imagination Baxton:	we can have a party
[11:22]	Arawn Spitteler relays to Simon, the effuvium of gratitude of Erin Selene, for fixing the camera bug
[11:22]	Rex Cronon:	hello simon
[11:22]	Dahlia Trimble:	the oscillating camera bug?
[11:22]	Simon Linden:	That snapshot one? I'd love to take credit, but someone else already got to it
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	simon, perhaps you can provide the latest tips as to what is pending deploy? Did we get anything else fixed and in the merge-back pipeline lately?
[11:24]	Arawn Spitteler:	Whose department, would be perm instability? Someone's having trouble with self setting perms, on Advanced Scripters.
[11:24]	Simon Linden:	All our work is merged back into the release pipeline for the 1.23 server - that is planned for the beta grid this week, but it still has to be built, pass testing, etc before it's pushed out there
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	This would be a good place to talk about perm instability. If there is a perm problem we might be some of the dev's to go in and fix it.
[11:25]	Andrew Linden:	Arawn, is there a Jira item about the problem?
[11:25]	Creem Pye:	it would be awfully convenient to have a viewer interface for setting the perms of all items inan object's inventory in 1 step
[11:26]	Rex Cronon:	if u can do it by object type, that would be even better
[11:26]	Dahlia Trimble:	it would be more convenient to have an LSL api to do it
[11:26]	Creem Pye:	hehe that too
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	Uh... perms are comlicated
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	you can link prims with different perms
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	and then on unlink the perms are supposed to recover
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	linking different perms produces an object with the most restrictive perms
[11:28]	Arawn Spitteler:	I know I've had trouble, with contents having to be set, but this lady had an item set itself for sale.
[11:28]	Arawn Spitteler:	Reproduction sounds challenging.
[11:29]	Andrew Linden:	Well, I'll be needing some very helpful hints before I could try to fix. However somone in QA might benefit from more vague descriptions of the problem... they might be able to fiddle around until they find the problem.
[11:29]	Creem Pye:	a friend of mine had some troubles with "permission poisoning" when unlinking his object from a no-trans prim didn't restore the perms; fortunately I had an object cloning system to help him recover his build
[11:30]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I just tried it, when I unlink an object, the prims have the permissions that the root prim had on linking, not its own perms.
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... that doesn't sound right Gaius. Did you unlink the object? Or a copy?
[11:31]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Unlinking the original
[11:31]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Yup, the child prims perms are lost on linking.
[11:31]	Gaius Goodliffe:	And the linkset's perms don't change on link that I can see.
[11:31]	Creem Pye:	yeah I believe that per-prim permissions don't act as you'd expect them to, Andrew =\
[11:31]	Gaius Goodliffe:	They're the same as the root prim.
[11:32]	Dahlia Trimble:	I think it's different if you link child prims you didnt create
[11:32]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Ah!
[11:32]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Yes, that makes sense...
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	That could very well be true Creem. I find the perms system very confusing.
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	And I'm not very confident that they work like I was saying.
[11:33]	Dahlia Trimble:	maybe they used to? ;)
[11:33]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hi, Latif
[11:33]	Latif Khalifa:	hello
[11:33]	Dahlia Trimble:	Hi Latif :)
[11:33]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	A week ago or so I got an email saying that someone noticed the "avatar drifts down while hovering" bug still... but I thought I had really fixed that one for good.
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	Has anyone here seen it happen lately? (In the last 1.5 weeks?)
[11:34]	Harleen Gretzky:	Only if you move from side to side
[11:35]	Harleen Gretzky:	It is noted in the JIRA on it
[11:35]	Andrew Linden:	Could you elaborate on that Harleen?
[11:35]	Andrew Linden:	Oh, what is the jira #?
[11:35]	Pagan Bishop:	yup
[11:35]	Harleen Gretzky:	If you hover and turn left and right you slow drift down, if you don't move you stay level
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	Oh ok.
[11:36]	Simon Linden:	You mean you're staying in place, and turning left and right, or rotating?
[11:36]	Harleen Gretzky:	yes
[11:37]	Harleen Gretzky:	used to be rotating started the drift down, now you only drift down when rotating
[11:37]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, I knew that was a problem for the hover-up... you hover up if you do that next to some large object (inside it's simulation island).
[11:38]	Simon Linden:	yes, the rotation would prevent the physics engine from deciding that everything is done moving and should just be static
[11:38]	Pagan Bishop:	actually seems to only happen when I strafe left while flying
[11:38]	Harleen Gretzky:	JIRA is: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2013
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	when flying there is some other effect... there is a slight adjustment to height based on the terrain below you.
[11:39]	Harleen Gretzky:	The drift down is very minute, you have to keep shifting back and forth from left to right
[11:39]	Gaius Goodliffe:	o.O
[11:39]	Gaius Goodliffe:	People have a large ground-effect?
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	If you fly horizontal over varying terrain you'll notice that your avatar will move up and down with the terrain
[11:40]	Pagan Bishop:	the terrain is flat here
[11:40]	Dahlia Trimble:	only for terrain?
[11:40]	Pagan Bishop:	and it happens either direction, just have to move in that direction far enough
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	yes, only for terrain because that feature was in place before we had good (fast) asynchronous ray-tracing in the physics engine
[11:41]	Simon Linden:	How annoying is the problem? One of the tough things we have to decide is priority of bugs, and while the old drift was pretty bad, this doesn't sound like it has much affect
[11:41]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I've noticed that the max unassisted flight level varies with terrain, but you don't actually bob up and down with it while flying over it.
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	the
[11:41]	Andrew Linden:	the comments and frenzy in the jira item is often an indication of priority
[11:42]	Simon Linden:	yeah, 82 votes and 14 watchers is getting a lot of attention
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	Alright, well I assigned that to me. If anyone is going to fix it I will.
[11:43]	Latif Khalifa:	i wonder where woulb be an appopriate place to ask for IM from object emails changing subject line?
[11:44]	Simon Linden:	Yes, I noticed that recently changed, and broke all my email filters
[11:44]	Latif Khalifa:	mine too, yester day again
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	I'm unfamiliar with this problem.
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	But this would be a good place to talk about it.
[11:45]	Simon Linden:	If you get an IM from an object in-world, the subject line on the email recently changed
[11:45]	Dahlia Trimble:	scripters mailing list might help too
[11:45]	Pagan Bishop:	it's alot more verbose
[11:45]	Andrew Linden:	Simon, do we know who changed that?
[11:45]	Latif Khalifa:	it used to be "Message from Second Live"
[11:45]	Pagan Bishop:	I kind of like it ;P
[11:45]	Creem Pye:	now it's more like "Second Life - the object 'SL Exchange Magic Box black' has sent you a message"
[11:45]	Creem Pye:	and the from field is the object's name
[11:45]	MSo Lambert:	Oh there's another interesting issue connected with IM to Email, I wonder how many noticed it - http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2524 =)
[11:46]	Latif Khalifa:	Creem, no, it went back to old plain "Message from Second Life" aagain yesterday
[11:46]	Creem Pye:	ah
[11:46]	Pagan Bishop:	I've noticed IMs not making it to email, but that's probably nothign new
[11:46]	Creem Pye:	I guess the From field already tells you the object name, eh?
[11:46]	Simon Linden:	No, I don't know what changed there - it's probably not a simulator problem, but the back-end process handling email
[11:46]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Interesting -- I had the opposite happen: I've gotten emails on IMs that never got delivered when I logged in (and not because of the cap -- they just got silently dropped).
[11:47]	Andrew Linden:	Ah.
[11:47]	Latif Khalifa:	Simon, probably, because the change occured without rolling restart
[11:47]	Pagan Bishop:	before it gets too late in the meeting, I wanted to ask if there was somewhere we can see the change log for the sim updates?
[11:48]	Pagan Bishop:	I assume I'm just missing something
[11:48]	Andrew Linden:	That is a good question... where do we publish those these days?
[11:48]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hi, CG
[11:48]	CG Linden:	Hi
[11:48]	Rex Cronon:	hello
[11:48]	CG Linden:	there is an issue outstanding on that...
[11:48]	Simon Linden:	They are mostly on the blog posts when a new version is pushed out
[11:48]	CG Linden:	but this time we'll blog
[11:49]	Andrew Linden:	A loooong time ago we would deploy a new server + client at the same time, with one set of change-logs
[11:49]	Pagan Bishop:	yeah, blog posts don't alwasy seem to be the complete changelog
[11:49]	CG Linden:	prospero will make sure we put release notes into the blog post
[11:49]	Andrew Linden:	Have we split the blog yet? Or do we still only have one?
[11:49]	CG Linden:	but we're planning to put the release notes next to the viewer release notes on the wiki, and yopu can get there by clicking
[11:49]	Andrew Linden checks...
[11:50]	CG Linden:	on the popup that comes uip on region change
[11:50]	Pagan Bishop:	might be good to put on the wiki?
[11:50]	CG Linden:	yes, we did split, but we will still post announcements on the main blog
[11:50]	Pagan Bishop:	yeah
[11:50]	CG Linden:	welcome back btw :)
[11:50]	Pagan Bishop:	right, keep the techy stuff on the wiki ;)
[11:50]	CG Linden:	I said this morning you're still on vacation :)
[11:50]	CG Linden was wrong
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, I'm back finally.
[11:50]	Arawn Spitteler wanted to get on for CG Hour, to ask if http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-7982 was just him.
[11:50]	CG Linden is happy to be wronf
[11:51]	Pagan Bishop:	another question before the end, are you guys still working on improving the performance of the sims under havok4?
[11:51]	Pagan Bishop:	especially the rezzing?
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	Yes Pagan, Simon will be working on that project.
[11:52]	Andrew Linden:	Looks like I've got enough high-priority bugs to keep me busy for a while.
[11:52]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Anything to end the "Unable to rez object, please try again." that constantly comes up would be greatly appreciated. :)
[11:52]	Latif Khalifa:	and deleting :)
[11:52]	Pagan Bishop:	everyone's buying up the void sims now, and they crumble under much physics load atm
[11:53]	Latif Khalifa:	when asset server is acting up sim is often left with a lot of ghost objects still
[11:53]	Simon Linden:	Yes, I'm specifically looking at them and trying to get them to share CPU load better
[11:53]	Pagan Bishop:	Gaius, I've been working aroudn that by rezzing stuff as non-physical and then switching it to physical
[11:53]	Pagan Bishop:	not that that works for everyone, and probably only exacerbates the issue ;P
[11:53]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Mostly what works is creating a box, then rezzing on the box.
[11:54]	Dahlia Trimble:	you mean rezzing on megaprims?
[11:54]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Not necessarily.
[11:54]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I see it a lot regardless of whether megaprims are present or not.
[11:54]	Arawn Spitteler can create a box on Megaprims, but's been getting a lot of rez-lag
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	I don't see why rezzing on another box would matter.
[11:54]	Creem Pye:	um didn't we have a discussion about this earlier?
[11:54]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I think it might have something to do with distance to object center, but honestly it seems random enough it's hard to tell.
[11:55]	Latif Khalifa:	yeah, rezzing has always been sort of black magic to me, but from experience it depends on your camera angle
[11:55]	Creem Pye:	and maybe Andrew said that glLookAt is used to place a rezzed object
[11:55]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Switching camera angle seems to help too sometimes, yeah...
[11:55]	Dahlia Trimble:	Ihavent seen any of those problems since H4
[11:55]	Tessa Harrington:	hey alll .... and i8 am sorry for all the chaos this morning
[11:55]	Creem Pye:	(I probably have the GL function name a bit wrong though)
[11:55]	Gaius Goodliffe:	I see real problems when rezzing on an object that straddles a sim border.
[11:56]	Pagan Bishop:	Tessa ;P
[11:56]	Andrew Linden:	Oh right... I'm not surprised that it might break across region boundaries.
[11:56]	Gaius Goodliffe:	technically there's two objects, one in each sim, but I think it always picks the one in the other sim for me. :p
[11:57]	Pagan Bishop:	I've seen issues returning objects in parcels
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	Well, I'd love to say that I'd work on that, but I'm feeling a bit overloaded at the moment.
[11:57]	Gaius Goodliffe nods.
[11:58]	Pagan Bishop:	if like one parcel is set for no-entry and an object is on the boarder and you return all the prims in the parcel, the object is stil lthere
[11:58]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Creating a temp box works fine as a workaround.
[11:58]	Pagan Bishop:	not a big deal
[11:58]	Tessa Harrington:	we're discussing liberating products across sim/grid lines, correct?
[11:58]	Andrew Linden:	If anyone finds a reliable way to make "create new prim" to fail then go ahead and make a jira and point me at it... that sounds like something that wouldn't be too hard to fix if it is failing for a very specific case.
[11:59]	Latif Khalifa:	its not create new prim, its rez from inv
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	Ah... rez from inventory is different, and has a variety of modes by which it can fail.
[11:59]	Gaius Goodliffe:	...and usually does. :p
[12:00]	Latif Khalifa:	yes, mostly to do with camera angles it seems
[12:00]	Latif Khalifa:	but its really a minor annoyance, not a big deal
[12:00]	Arawn Spitteler holds a building class, on a megaprim
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	If it is a placement problem then I'm a likely dev to fix it.
[12:00]	Tessa Harrington:	can i ask about what is probably a very over discussed solution suggestion
[12:01]	Tessa Harrington:	to the cross grid product problem?
[12:01]	Pagan Bishop:	is sidewinder still the project manager for this stuff?
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	cross-grid product problem? Please elaborate
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	I don't recall talking about that one yet in these hours.
[12:01]	Arawn Spitteler:	Inter Grid?
[12:01]	Dahlia Trimble has to run.... bye all :)
[12:01]	Rex Cronon:	bye
[12:01]	Latif Khalifa:	bye dahlia :)
[12:01]	Simon Linden:	Bye
[12:01]	Tessa Harrington:	well, the greatest issue for most of my designers friends with open sim is the worry about product going out and being copied so much they go out of biz
[12:01]	Arawn Spitteler's heard Saijanai overdiscuss it.
[12:02]	Pagan Bishop:	intergrid is a whole nother can of worms
[12:02]	Tessa Harrington:	iv'e been talking to a few of my programmers outside of SL and they ahve some ideas about using key IDing systems
[12:02]	Andrew Linden:	go on Tessa
[12:03]	Tessa Harrington:	well the idea is if your product has a distinct key to ID it that is associated with that avatar
[12:03]	Tessa Harrington:	and you go from sl to antoehr gridm assumign yoru invo will eventually be able to follow .. i understand that's the goal
[12:03]	Tessa Harrington:	then that sever has to have a key to allow it to rez
[12:03]	Tessa Harrington:	given to it by designer/creator
[12:03]	Creem Pye:	soa DRM system for permissions, then?
[12:04]	Tessa Harrington:	to establish a system of trust sharing
[12:04]	Tessa Harrington:	yes
[12:04]	Tessa Harrington:	if the server doesn't have a key from that designer than it can't rez
[12:04]	Andrew Linden:	so... each alternate "grid" must be manually enabled by each content creator?
[12:04]	Tessa Harrington:	well i see it oike this
[12:04]	Tessa Harrington:	a designer wants their products to be mobile
[12:04]	Tessa Harrington:	for sure
[12:04]	Tessa Harrington:	but they dont' want it to be so easy to steal as sayign I gotcha!
[12:05]	Tessa Harrington:	which is thier biggest worry
[12:05]	Tessa Harrington:	they know the risk of theft can not be elminated
[12:05]	Tessa Harrington:	but they would feel better if the means to do it became so tedious as to disquade most from doing it
[12:05]	Tessa Harrington:	so
[12:06]	Simon Linden:	Tessa - I personally don't have an answer, but do know the issue is getting a lot of attention here
[12:06]	Tessa Harrington:	nods
[12:06]	Tessa Harrington:	well the key system seems like a good idea
[12:06]	Tessa Harrington:	cause then the stand alone grid owners would have to qualify to be a "trusted cross grid owner
[12:07]	Tessa Harrington:	with their RL info open
[12:07]	Pagan Bishop:	tessa, I believe zero is having office hours in about an hour
[12:07]	Andrew Linden:	What about a more general system, where there were levels of "trust", and content creators could set their trust levels?
[12:07]	Tessa Harrington:	and signing contracts that stipulate useage agreements
[12:07]	Simon Linden:	There does have to be some level of trust between other grids and SL to get access into the asset database
[12:07]	Tessa Harrington:	yes that coudl be done with a key system as well i think
[12:07]	Pagan Bishop:	probably a better place to discuss/listen (http://slurl.com/secondlife/Grasmere/164/110/27)
[12:07]	Creem Pye:	you could use something like PGP encyrption
[12:07]	Pagan Bishop thinks Simon and Andrew shoudl focus on physics issues ;)
[12:08]	Andrew Linden:	That is... suppose Yahoo opened up a very large SL-compatible grid, and coordinated some sort of peer trust level with LL.
[12:08]	Arawn Spitteler:	SL is based on the Internet, and World Wide Web, where I don't think we're encouraged to randomly build scripted objects.
[12:08]	Tessa Harrington:	am i in the wrong discussion room? *blushes
[12:08]	Simon Linden:	Yes, anything I say is mostly conjecture ... I'm not involved in that project
[12:08]	Creem Pye:	sign the data of an object with a certain grid's public key..
[12:08]	Arawn Spitteler:	The wrong hour is over, Tess. Andrew's only here because he's interested.
[12:08]	Andrew Linden:	Tessa, the topics here are pretty open, however neither Simon or I are focusing on cross-grid trust issues ATM.
[12:09]	Tessa Harrington:	well the www is inherently less protected than what we've enjoyed over the last 5 years, due to our work being attacted to objects and the fact that you really are not annoymous
[12:09]	Tessa Harrington:	ok. sorry i thought this was part of cross grid trust issues
[12:09]	Harleen Gretzky:	Xen Linden is discussing them at Zero' office hours today at 1 PM, probably at Pooley
[12:10]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, but there is not equivalent for "scripted objects" crossing different web pages, so that would be a new issue in any distributed metaverse design.
[12:10]	Simon Linden:	On a SL grid, there really isn't much of the assets that isn't already available at the viewer side - scripts are the most interesting part that stays on the servers
[12:10]	Arawn Spitteler:	I know there was some interest earlier, in Perms self jumping, but don't know what happened to it.
[12:10]	Tessa Harrington:	yes .... agreed Andrew
[12:10]	Andrew Linden:	Right, Zero and Xen are more involved in those issues.
[12:10]	Pagan Bishop:	> Xen Linden will be guest-hosting Zero Linden's office hours on > Tuesday, 1 July, at 1PM. The topic will be issues pertaining to > intergrid permissions. > > http://slurl.com/secondlife/Grasmere/164/110/27
[12:10]	Pagan Bishop:	:)
[12:11]	Tessa Harrington:	awesome .. thank you
[12:11]	Harleen Gretzky:	But Grasmere can only hold 40 residents, so it will probably move to Pooley
[12:11]	Andrew Linden:	Someday we'll probably have a system where the script runs on a separate server than what the simulator is running on.
[12:11]	Simon Linden:	I'm gonna run ... thanks everyone for coming
[12:11]	Andrew Linden:	We'd have to decouple the script engine from our "simulator" process.
[12:11]	Creem Pye:	latency could be a drag in that case :<
[12:11]	Rex Cronon:	bye
[12:12]	Creem Pye:	seeya Simon
[12:12]	Tessa Harrington:	bebye Simon
[12:12]	Tessa Harrington:	thanks
[12:12]	Simon Linden:	Bye all
[12:12]	Latif Khalifa:	yeah, latency for scripts would make that very difficult
[12:12]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Creem -- it could work both ways. In sim scripts, and then "authorization' scripts that don't require as much interactivity.
[12:12]	Andrew Linden:	yes, perhaps Creem. Although we expect network lag to gradually go down in general... approaching light speed.
[12:12]	Arawn Spitteler thinks a lot of scripts could run client side, and only bother the sim with Lindend Library Calls.
[12:12]	Pagan Bishop:	ok, not grasmere... Saijanai Kuhn: A reminder about the intergrid permissions presentation at Zero LInden's today at 1PM SLT at the Pooley Auditorium. http://slurl.com/secondlife/Seascale/245/252/49 or http://slurl.com/secondlife/Pooley/249/13/49 or http://slurl.com/secondlife/Borrowdale/12/11/51or http://slurl.com/secondlife/Brampton/11/249/51
[12:12]	Harleen Gretzky:	How would you handle scripted attachemnts now, with agent domain and region domain, since I assume teh attachment is in the AD store
[12:13]	Creem Pye:	yeah viewer-side scripting for HUDs and such could remove lots of unnecessary script lado on a sim
[12:13]	Andrew Linden:	viewer-side scripting would not be secure, btw
[12:13]	Arawn Spitteler:	It would also protect them for no-script areas, and allow them to se across boarders
[12:13]	Andrew Linden:	at least, not secure from copying
[12:13]	Creem Pye:	yeah that's true, but it would be nice for fullperm stuff =)
[12:13]	Gaius Goodliffe:	The client needs a Firefox-style addon manager. :)
[12:14]	Creem Pye:	I'm thinking about stuff like radar, where the viewer already knows where nearby objects are and what their UUIDs are
[12:14]	Arawn Spitteler:	Wouldn't be secure for the script, and the viewer would have its own worries, but a nice idea
[12:15]	Latif Khalifa:	Andrew, I wanted to ask if any work has been done on http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-255 where objects would stay in the simulation after failed derezz due to the asset/db issues?
[12:15]	Harleen Gretzky:	Or you could modify the viewer for radar scriptless, like Dale Glass does for his viewer
[12:15]	Creem Pye:	yeah that's another option, Harleen. I'll have to check out Dale's viewer, since I haven't heard of it before =)
[12:15]	Andrew Linden:	No work on SVC-255 yet, that I'm aware of Latif
[12:16]	Andrew Linden:	however, has anyone come up with a reliable repro recipe for that problem?
[12:16]	Arawn Spitteler:	Ghost Prims?
[12:16]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Delete something while the asset server is acting up.
[12:16]	Arawn Spitteler:	Asset Server Problems are often sim specific, and Spirit City is a hotbed for that sort of thing
[12:17]	Andrew Linden:	That bug has a lot of comments. I'll try to take the time to read them all
[12:17]	Latif Khalifa:	Andrew, its diffucul to repro... it only happens when DB is down, so the sim cannot send the object to one's trash. It removes it from the view, but it stays in physics part and prim count
[12:17]	Andrew Linden:	looks like there is one repro there, but I'm not sure if it is reliable.
[12:17]	Latif Khalifa:	it has to do with the db/asset problems
[12:17]	Andrew Linden:	Oh really? I might be able to simulate a downed inventory database in a test setup
[12:18]	Creem Pye:	hm if you can control the sim, you could proxy its connection to the asset server and have the proxy randomly drop packets
[12:18]	Arawn Spitteler:	Part of the Asset Server Problems, seem to be Simulator Side
[12:18]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Problem is, if the assert server is really down, you just get the "Unable to delete, object returned to sim" message.
[12:18]	Gaius Goodliffe:	The assert server needs to be intermittently working...
[12:18]	Andrew Linden:	The asset server is distinct from the inventory database
[12:19]	Latif Khalifa:	Andrew yes. sometmes we get "Asset server timeout, returening object to the sim", but sometimes that message does not appear. The object becomes invisible, for all practical purposes its deleted, except it still collides and its part of the prim count... Sim restart fixes this issue
[12:19]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Ah. Well, *something* has to be intermittently working. :)
[12:19]	Andrew Linden:	so problems can happen on either of those servers, and cause similar, but not identical problems and confusion
[12:20]	Latif Khalifa:	i guess this problem occurs with db isse, when sim fails to put the object in one's trash
[12:20]	Rex Cronon:	i need to go too. bye everybody
[12:20]	Creem Pye:	bye rex
[12:20]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, I need to go too.
[12:20]	Rex Cronon:	have fun
[12:20]	Andrew Linden:	Thanks for coming everyone.
[12:20]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Me as well.
[12:20]	Tessa Harrington:	me too
[12:20]	Gaius Goodliffe:	Thank you!
[12:20]	Tessa Harrington:	great meeting everyone and sorry to waste time
[12:20]	Latif Khalifa:	Thanks for all the answers Andrew
[12:20]	Harleen Gretzky:	ttfn
[12:20]	Arawn Spitteler:	No waste, but a good discussion