User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2010 02 26

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Revision as of 23:52, 26 February 2010 by Leslie Scribe (talk | contribs) (Created page with '* 2010-02-26 [17:53:18] lonetorus Habilis: tech, new av :D * 2010-02-26 [17:53:48] Chaley May: afk need a drink * 2010-02-26 [17:54:09] Techwolf Lupindo: Hi Lone * 2010-02-26 [17...')
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  • 2010-02-26 [17:53:18] lonetorus Habilis: tech, new av :D
  • 2010-02-26 [17:53:48] Chaley May: afk need a drink
  • 2010-02-26 [17:54:09] Techwolf Lupindo: Hi Lone
  • 2010-02-26 [17:55:13] lonetorus Habilis: must say i liked the old one better
  • 2010-02-26 [17:55:45] lonetorus Habilis: but this seems all alpha layer free
  • 2010-02-26 [17:56:15] Alexia Leborski: hi
  • 2010-02-26 [18:00:33] Arawn Spitteler: Maggi's back?
  • 2010-02-26 [18:00:44] Maggie Darwin: "Back?"
  • 2010-02-26 [18:00:54] Maggie Darwin: Where did I go?
  • 2010-02-26 [18:01:02] Arawn Spitteler: We might have been hiting different hours
  • 2010-02-26 [18:01:07] Squirrel Wood: over there
  • 2010-02-26 [18:01:15] Wut Moorlord: =]
  • 2010-02-26 [18:01:27] Rex Cronon: hi everybody
  • 2010-02-26 [18:01:33] RedMokum Bravin: HIyas
  • 2010-02-26 [18:01:34] Wut Moorlord: heya rex
  • 2010-02-26 [18:01:45] Alexia Leborski: hello
  • 2010-02-26 [18:01:49] Maggie Darwin: I came to mentiomn I've been having God's own time getting a physics boat to cross fron Busiris to Bhaga. Just there.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:02:07] Arawn Spitteler: Hi, Andrew
  • 2010-02-26 [18:02:21] Arawn Spitteler: That little gap from Bhaga?
  • 2010-02-26 [18:02:23] Chaley May: hello :)
  • 2010-02-26 [18:02:25] Andrew Linden: Hello
  • 2010-02-26 [18:02:40] Maggie Darwin: When I try to motor accross the border, it's as if Bhaga is pushing back, the boat actually turns away from the border
  • 2010-02-26 [18:02:40] Rex Cronon: hi wut
  • 2010-02-26 [18:02:43] Rex Cronon: hi andrew
  • 2010-02-26 [18:02:48] Geo Islay: any chance of using voice?
  • 2010-02-26 [18:03:02] Arawn Spitteler: Voice doesn't transcribe well
  • 2010-02-26 [18:03:04] Xugu Madison: hey Andrew!
  • 2010-02-26 [18:03:20] Andrew Linden: hello
  • 2010-02-26 [18:03:25] Geo Islay: in my ears it works fine
  • 2010-02-26 [18:03:42] Chaley May: everyones clothes are rezzing slowly
  • 2010-02-26 [18:03:44] Chaley May: even andrews
  • 2010-02-26 [18:03:45] Maggie Darwin: We can't put your ears in the wiki.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:03:47] Xugu Madison: Voice also requires you're on a client it works with, a mic, and that I don't have background noise that would interfere. Y'know, off the top of my head
  • 2010-02-26 [18:03:48] Andrew Linden: ugh... I decided to try viewer-2.0 today and am having some problems...
  • 2010-02-26 [18:03:57] Arawn Spitteler: It might be fun to try
  • 2010-02-26 [18:04:06] Chaley May: yeah 2.0 is not as great as most lindens imagine it to be
  • 2010-02-26 [18:04:08] Maggie Darwin: Andrew: "Cardboard? Then it's beta."
  • 2010-02-26 [18:04:16] Morgaine Dinova: 2.0 is a lot laggier. I usually get about 15 FPS here, only 5 now. And we're not even full
  • 2010-02-26 [18:04:20] Geo Islay: its a new day please join it
  • 2010-02-26 [18:04:43] Chaley May: chat is better
  • 2010-02-26 [18:04:48] Arawn Spitteler: I was gettting half my FPS earlier, so there might be a virus going about
  • 2010-02-26 [18:04:52] Andrew Linden: Yeah, that is what I'm noticing ... kinda slow, and I can't get the semi-transparent chat log that I usually use
  • 2010-02-26 [18:04:57] Geo Islay: voice is better
  • 2010-02-26 [18:05:01] Charlette Proto: my client (ver2) only shows my voice dot and the sound works otherwise even device test level and previous versions of viewer - both Vista and Win 7
  • 2010-02-26 [18:05:06] Charlene Trudeau: again, transcriptions for display on the website etc are better in text
  • 2010-02-26 [18:05:12] Maggie Darwin: Geo, nobody cares. Thanks for playing.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:05:17] Andrew Linden: tsk tsk, maybe time to ask for a newer video card
  • 2010-02-26 [18:05:19] Chaley May: voice is better for missing stuff.. is slower :)
  • 2010-02-26 [18:05:21] Geo Islay: record voice
  • 2010-02-26 [18:05:24] Xugu Madison: Charlene; I prefer the term "feasible"
  • 2010-02-26 [18:05:34] Charlene Trudeau: I haven't gotten voice working on 2.0 yet in any event :)
  • 2010-02-26 [18:05:36] Chaley May: only 1 person can speak at a time on voice or it becomes unmanageable
  • 2010-02-26 [18:05:40] Charlette Proto: feasible to what???
  • 2010-02-26 [18:05:43] Morgaine Dinova: Can't search through voice.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:05:52] Geo Islay: one at a time sounds good
  • 2010-02-26 [18:05:58] Jonathan Yap: Let's proceed with the OH
  • 2010-02-26 [18:05:59] Leslie Scribe: Geo Islay makes the same weake excuses Geo Meek did.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:06:04] Maggie Darwin: OK, Geo, you record it, and if anybody else uses it you can transcribe it too.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:06:04] Wut Moorlord: can't nip out for a smoke and return without losing all the context with voice :)
  • 2010-02-26 [18:06:10] Techwolf Lupindo: HI andrew. When you get a few minutes, I like to show you a bugged item. Premission chage when modding it.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:06:14] Geo Islay: we are the same
  • 2010-02-26 [18:06:35] Geo Islay: but not weake
  • 2010-02-26 [18:06:40] Rex Cronon: althoug if it were like in wow, voice would do great on a raid:)
  • 2010-02-26 [18:06:49] Andrew Linden: tecnowolf, why don't we start with your bugged item.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:06:54] Charlette Proto: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-17401 - viewer 2 dumbs people down - I've never seen JIRA comments by people who don't read repro descriptions before
  • 2010-02-26 [18:06:55] Meeter: [#VWR-17401] Voice isn't connecting
  • 2010-02-26 [18:07:01] Geo Islay: poor wording
  • 2010-02-26 [18:07:28] Techwolf Lupindo: I just rezzed it. Look at permission now.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:08:07] Techwolf Lupindo: Let me know once you done that.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:08:09] Arawn Spitteler: Mod Copy?
  • 2010-02-26 [18:08:10] Andrew Linden: ok so next-owner can modify + copy
  • 2010-02-26 [18:08:32] Techwolf Lupindo: Now take a look at it.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:08:45] Techwolf Lupindo: All I did was un-linked one prim.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:09:16] Arawn Spitteler: No-=Mod, No Copy, No Trans
  • 2010-02-26 [18:09:39] lonetorus Habilis: the bit that was detatched is trans
  • 2010-02-26 [18:09:41] Chaley May: Yes that is Techqolfs butt your all touching
  • 2010-02-26 [18:09:49] Falcon Linden: Whoops, sorry :)
  • 2010-02-26 [18:09:50] Squirrel Wood: I think that's not really a bug in itself as the unlinked prims merely are returned to their permissions as they were before they were linked ?
  • 2010-02-26 [18:09:55] Charlene Trudeau: that bug is back? *shudder* the child prims don't hold the perms
  • 2010-02-26 [18:10:07] Techwolf Lupindo: I was modding it the other day and got perms changed on me.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:10:20] Arawn Spitteler: I dont' think he changed the root prim
  • 2010-02-26 [18:10:28] Rex Cronon: u got less perms?
  • 2010-02-26 [18:10:34] lonetorus Habilis: "you where modding your bum" /me notes down in quotes.txt
  • 2010-02-26 [18:10:37] Andrew Linden: Hey Falcon, you want to work on a permissions bug?
  • 2010-02-26 [18:10:45] Leslie Scribe: Hehe
  • 2010-02-26 [18:10:50] Techwolf Lupindo: The de-linked prim went from mod/copy/notrans to nomod/nocopy/trans and the root object went nomod on me.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:11:02] Falcon Linden: Sorry Andrew, a bit swamped with features for these folks here :)
  • 2010-02-26 [18:11:35] Maggie Darwin: Ah, then you wanna work on a permissions feature?
  • 2010-02-26 [18:11:38] Andrew Linden: Well it sounds like there is a bug there.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:11:44] Squirrel Wood: We are used to bugs being features and features being bugs ^^
  • 2010-02-26 [18:11:45] Techwolf Lupindo: The creater was nice and gave me another one and that one didn't have the bug.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:11:56] Falcon Linden: Maggie: Sure, I take it you don't want Havok 7, then? :)
  • 2010-02-26 [18:12:13] Squirrel Wood: I want h7 if it fixes my roller coaster :p
  • 2010-02-26 [18:12:17] Maggie Darwin: Will it break as much stiuff as Havok 4 did?
  • 2010-02-26 [18:12:22] Andrew Linden: permissions are tricky -- I would need to look it over carefuly when I have more time and focus
  • 2010-02-26 [18:12:27] Falcon Linden: Squirrel: I fixed someone else's roller coaster, let's chat about it later
  • 2010-02-26 [18:12:32] Morgaine Dinova: The name of the physics engine sure is appropriate
  • 2010-02-26 [18:12:38] Andrew Linden: Technowolf, is this an item you made?
  • 2010-02-26 [18:12:39] Falcon Linden: Maggie: So far it doesn't look like it breaks anything....so far
  • 2010-02-26 [18:12:49] Geo Islay: focus more
  • 2010-02-26 [18:12:50] Maggie Darwin: Yeah, that's what they said about 4. :-)
  • 2010-02-26 [18:12:51] Andrew Linden: ah no, you're not the creator
  • 2010-02-26 [18:13:06] Arawn Spitteler: Does the Luna Dore Trolley work under H7?
  • 2010-02-26 [18:13:06] Geo Islay: sounds funny in text
  • 2010-02-26 [18:13:06] Falcon Linden: Maggie: Let's just say that over time, it'll be worth whatever it costs
  • 2010-02-26 [18:13:22] Maggie Darwin: To you maybe.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:13:22] Techwolf Lupindo: Now I do have another item that does change perms, but in a way I was still able to work with it.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:13:29] Xugu Madison: Out of curiousity, what does H7 change for SL?
  • 2010-02-26 [18:13:32] Falcon Linden: Arawn: Not the faintest idea what that means.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:13:56] Falcon Linden: Xugu: Initially, performance. But I have some features in mind that require Havok 7 and that people will like. E.g., raycasting
  • 2010-02-26 [18:13:59] Techwolf Lupindo: The de-linked prim stay correnct while the root went nomod. That was ok as I only needed the delined prim.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:14:00] Falcon Linden: SVC-...some number
  • 2010-02-26 [18:14:04] Maggie Darwin: Anyway...meanwhil maybe we can figure out what's wrong crossing a physical vehicle from Busiris to Bhaga.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:14:07] Simon Linden: We haven't set up many test regions for H7 yet, it's not that far along
  • 2010-02-26 [18:14:07] Arawn Spitteler: The Luna Dore Trolley hasn't been able to leave Luna, since H4
  • 2010-02-26 [18:14:23] Andrew Linden: Arawn, I don't think H7 will fix many region crossingArawn, I don't think H7 will fix any region crossing bugs.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:14:25] Xugu Madison: Falcon, performance sounds good to me! :)
  • 2010-02-26 [18:14:34] Falcon Linden: Andrew is very right
  • 2010-02-26 [18:14:39] Falcon Linden: (as usual)
  • 2010-02-26 [18:14:41] Andrew Linden: Arg! SL-2!
  • 2010-02-26 [18:14:57] Falcon Linden: Havok 7 won't fix any region crossing bugs, but that is something he and I have spent some time thinking about how to improve
  • 2010-02-26 [18:15:06] Xugu Madison: I'm hoping efficient scripting will help us reduce rez times, and that might help with crossings actually...
  • 2010-02-26 [18:15:10] Maggie Darwin: Well, it's another great falcon idea from LL.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:15:24] Falcon Linden: Maggie: pardon?
  • 2010-02-26 [18:15:31] Andrew Linden: Technowolf, if you can come up with a repro recipe for that permission glitch I'd like to see it in a jira item.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:15:43] lonetorus Habilis: xugu, might not the work bababge is doing, fix crossings to some extent of scripted objects
  • 2010-02-26 [18:15:45] Falcon Linden: Xugu: Havok 7 should improve rez times at least for situations where many rezzes are occuring in a single frame
  • 2010-02-26 [18:15:50] Maggie Darwin: Dude, you're going to have to get used to jokes about your name. :-)
  • 2010-02-26 [18:15:54] Andrew Linden: Perhaps the creator of the object has a clue as to when the next-owner bits were changed.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:15:58] Techwolf Lupindo: It only works on that item I have. The creater gave me another from her inventory and that works ok.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:16:00] Morgaine Dinova: Arawn: travel is going to be banned in SL (;-), because SL is only scalable when everyone stays in their home sim. Even Philip agreed with that when I discussed it with him on his blog, way back :-)
  • 2010-02-26 [18:16:02] Falcon Linden: Maggie: totally. I just didn't get this one :)
  • 2010-02-26 [18:16:16] Techwolf Lupindo: I first I though slam bit issue.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:16:43] Charlene Trudeau: there was a long while, maybe still an issue, where if you transferred objects via land sale it had the same perms bug that Maggie is displaying
  • 2010-02-26 [18:16:52] Charlette Proto: yes Morgaine - we shouldn't walk about any more - we have a URL bar now
  • 2010-02-26 [18:17:04] Andrew Linden: Techwolf, there are some permissions recovery upon unlinking.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:17:08] Charlene Trudeau: I had to have a clean copy given to me from her inventory to mine to get the perms to hold
  • 2010-02-26 [18:17:09] Falcon Linden: Charlette: Walking is way better for performance than teleporting :)
  • 2010-02-26 [18:17:11] Maggie Darwin: Um...I'm displaying a perms bug?
  • 2010-02-26 [18:17:22] Andrew Linden: It is possible that this bug cannot be fixed without breaking content somewhere.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:17:25] Charlene Trudeau: sorry, that is being shown, forgive me, Maggie
  • 2010-02-26 [18:17:30] Charlette Proto: I was kidding Falcon
  • 2010-02-26 [18:17:35] Andrew Linden: I haven't thought it all the way through yet.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:17:52] Falcon Linden: Charlette: What do I know, I'm new here...And I'm sick this week! hehe
  • 2010-02-26 [18:17:57] Charlene Trudeau: I've bought seemingly mod/copy skirts before that did the same too
  • 2010-02-26 [18:18:08] Charlette Proto: a wink at the practicality of a URL bar and the waste of screen realestate
  • 2010-02-26 [18:18:09] Arawn Spitteler wonders if Goedel has anything to say about a complete set of rules
  • 2010-02-26 [18:18:12] Charlene Trudeau: take a break and make a bear lol
  • 2010-02-26 [18:18:22] Falcon Linden: Charlette: I kinda like it
  • 2010-02-26 [18:18:24] Techwolf Lupindo: I can't get the assesst ID for a jira. So how would I put a repo in a jira?
  • 2010-02-26 [18:18:50] Maggie Darwin: OMFG, it's Saij.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:18:55] Charlette Proto: no surprise Falcon - I rubberbanded within the same sim yesterday (viewer 2)
  • 2010-02-26 [18:19:12] Morgaine Dinova: Charlette: that URL bar says it all. What was Philip's "new country" now aspires to be just another social networking site.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:19:16] Andrew Linden: Techwolf, you can specify an item by name in your inventory. LL can snag a copy from there.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:19:20] Saijanai Kuhn: waves
  • 2010-02-26 [18:19:20] Saijanai Kuhn grandly
  • 2010-02-26 [18:19:21] Falcon Linden: Charlette: I desperately want client-side physics. That would greatly improve the rubberbanding issues
  • 2010-02-26 [18:19:59] Techwolf Lupindo: Ok. SVC issue I take it?
  • 2010-02-26 [18:20:15] Andrew Linden: yes, definitely SVC
  • 2010-02-26 [18:20:41] Maggie Darwin: I'm still getting punked by erratic multi-second pin sim values
  • 2010-02-26 [18:20:49] Maggie Darwin: *ping sim
  • 2010-02-26 [18:21:08] Falcon Linden: Maggie: Client-side phytsics solves that!
  • 2010-02-26 [18:21:09] Rex Cronon: client-side physics? hmm? interesting. please, do say more about that falcon:)
  • 2010-02-26 [18:21:13] Charlette Proto: I kind of agree Falcon - actually assumed most phys was clientside for a long time (like other games) this was on the basis that some rubberbanded more than others, but it was WiFi problems
  • 2010-02-26 [18:21:19] Xugu Madison: Yes, please!
  • 2010-02-26 [18:21:23] Maggie Darwin: Often they halt rendering altogether
  • 2010-02-26 [18:21:31] Squirrel Wood: Name the object inquestion like the jira issue... best and easiest way to find it that way :)
  • 2010-02-26 [18:21:38] Falcon Linden: Rex: There are no plans right now. But we can chat in a few minutes about it (multitasking and out of the office sick)
  • 2010-02-26 [18:21:57] Geo Islay: Girl Scout Cookie recalled
  • 2010-02-26 [18:22:04] Maggie Darwin: Client-side physics solves network problems. Do tell.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:22:21] Rex Cronon: cool
  • 2010-02-26 [18:22:26] Maggie Darwin: "Mars needs women. LL needs cycles."
  • 2010-02-26 [18:22:56] Geo Islay: and life
  • 2010-02-26 [18:23:01] Andrew Linden: I don't have many announcements this week.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:23:24] Andrew Linden: I had to bail on Tuesday's meeting. There was some emergency about new experimental Welcome Islands
  • 2010-02-26 [18:23:25] Maggie Darwin: No, LL *owns* Life. And *Second*.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:23:45] Maggie Darwin: "Experimental welcome" sounds like fun.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:23:47] Squirrel Wood: physics in this sim is broken
  • 2010-02-26 [18:23:57] Andrew Linden: they are online now -- they required some server-side fix in order for the "teleport out via the map" feature to work.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:24:18] Geo Islay: :-)
  • 2010-02-26 [18:24:19] Morgaine Dinova: LL doesn't own "Life", nor "Second". You have to be able to recognize when lawyers are on crack. It's not hard skill to learn.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:24:32] Charlette Proto: network latency (ping time) must be easier to handle if everyone is looking at their own 'private' view of the phys situation rather than all lag
  • 2010-02-26 [18:24:41] Andrew Linden: anyway, I started working on a few teleport bugs this week because someone in LL requested it
  • 2010-02-26 [18:24:55] Chaley May: "shared media (tm)"
  • 2010-02-26 [18:25:01] Morgaine Dinova: lol
  • 2010-02-26 [18:25:33] Charlette Proto: haha 'shared media' I can see griefers taking advantage there
  • 2010-02-26 [18:25:37] Andrew Linden: I'll probably work on TP bugs into next week, then hopefully start thinking about border crossing bugs, like SVC-22
  • 2010-02-26 [18:25:38] Meeter: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-22
  • [#SVC-22] Vehicles crossing region borders aren't always treated as vehicles and can get incorrectly returned if the destination parcel is no-entry or parcel-full
  • 2010-02-26 [18:25:45] Simon Linden: I played around with shared media yesterday .... made a prim that had a ustream live feed from my viewer which was looking at that prim
  • 2010-02-26 [18:25:49] Techwolf Lupindo: I'me waiting for the first shared media expoit to come out. :-)
  • 2010-02-26 [18:25:56] Rex Cronon: imagine lol cube but with XXX stuff on each face:)
  • 2010-02-26 [18:25:58] Charlette Proto: let me show you some porn on this backpack TV
  • 2010-02-26 [18:25:58] Sebastean Steamweaver: What have I missed/
  • 2010-02-26 [18:26:10] Charlette Proto: precisely Rex
  • 2010-02-26 [18:26:15] RedMokum Bravin: I created a shared media prim and I really didn't know how to get rid of the stream except moving faaaaaaaar away
  • 2010-02-26 [18:26:51] Geo Islay: Simon did it work?
  • 2010-02-26 [18:26:55] Arawn Spitteler idly wonders if Falcon is accostomed to the ritual mention of SVC-93
  • 2010-02-26 [18:26:56] Meeter: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-93
  • [#SVC-93] llSetPrimitiveParams PRIM_ROTATION and llSetRot incorrectly implemented for child prims
  • 2010-02-26 [18:26:59] Squirrel Wood: a griefer wearing 100 linked prims where each prim displays six websites will cause your client to spawn 600 slplugin processes... if you have autoplay enabled and show media attached to avatars. (and that is the default setting) - the result will likely crash your client
  • 2010-02-26 [18:27:01] Simon Linden: If you mouse over the object, controls should pop up so you can stop it
  • 2010-02-26 [18:27:17] Rex Cronon: the flash pages alone r going to kill my computer:(
  • 2010-02-26 [18:27:18] Wut Moorlord: afaik there is a limit of ~8 media on a prim streams
  • 2010-02-26 [18:27:34] RedMokum Bravin: I tried that Simon, but I guess I was impatient then. I used a simple youtube page by the way.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:27:36] Jonathan Yap: I ran into that limit today
  • 2010-02-26 [18:27:42] Squirrel Wood: even a single stream can cause severe frame rate loss
  • 2010-02-26 [18:27:50] Wut Moorlord: I can't use them at all
  • 2010-02-26 [18:27:56] Morgaine Dinova: The problem with a shared media exploit is that the party who gets exploited is *US* --- the Javascript runs on our box. And LL have provided no controls to prevent it. We run NoScript or similar extensions in Firefox for safety, and now at a stroke LL has bypassed our security measures.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:27:56] Charlette Proto: re popup media controls in viewer 2 - that is about as intuitive as a screwdriver on a desk - FAIL
  • 2010-02-26 [18:27:56] Maggie Darwin: Crashypoo
  • 2010-02-26 [18:28:01] Wut Moorlord: for websites it's not great, with media everything blows up
  • 2010-02-26 [18:28:07] Andrew Linden: surely shared media can be disabled in the SL-2 client
  • 2010-02-26 [18:28:15] Wut Moorlord: it can
  • 2010-02-26 [18:28:31] Wut Moorlord: out of the box though it automatically loads media around you
  • 2010-02-26 [18:28:34] Maggie Darwin: "Andy don't call me Shirly."
  • 2010-02-26 [18:28:37] lonetorus Habilis: morg, but its webkit, surely its more secure than your FF ;)
  • 2010-02-26 [18:28:42] Squirrel Wood: including malicious websites
  • 2010-02-26 [18:28:50] Charlene Trudeau: but its not default, and as more content relies on shared media, and from the happy furor over it, there will be, it will be hard to avoid needing it on
  • 2010-02-26 [18:28:52] Arawn Spitteler: Surely, you don't call me Andy
  • 2010-02-26 [18:29:05] Maggie Darwin: Table full of ruthclouds
  • 2010-02-26 [18:29:10] Charlette Proto: yes Prefs > Sound & Media > Play media attached - people in welcome areas disable this first
  • 2010-02-26 [18:29:11] Xugu Madison: Andrew; needs more powerful controls. Things like automatically loading media only if it's owned by the parcel owner, for example...
  • 2010-02-26 [18:29:19] Rex Cronon: it makes it like using IE before anysecurity updates:(
  • 2010-02-26 [18:29:23] Charlene Trudeau: yeah, that would be awesome, Xugu
  • 2010-02-26 [18:29:31] Morgaine Dinova: Andrew: only by disabling *all* media. In Firefox, you control which site you allow to run JS on your machine --- usually just the site you're talking too.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:29:35] Squirrel Wood: I have media OFF by default not just due to security risks but because it wastes bandwidth and kills performance. :p
  • 2010-02-26 [18:29:39] RedMokum Bravin: And no automatic cache-file-stealing
  • 2010-02-26 [18:29:58] Maggie Darwin: Just wait until the first alt is traced though the viewer's IP address. :-)
  • 2010-02-26 [18:30:21] lonetorus Habilis: maggie, that is being done on a large scale by some ppl already
  • 2010-02-26 [18:30:32] Andrew Linden: I'll bet there are some office hours devoted to the new shared media stuff.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:30:37] RedMokum Bravin: I would really like to see that no moap ever gets access to my harddrive for whatsoever reason.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:30:42] Morgaine Dinova: Browsers have suffered huge numbers of exploits through Javascript, and that's with whitelist/blacklist controls. Here Lindens have opened us right up.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:30:48] Techwolf Lupindo: There is, it is on wensday
  • 2010-02-26 [18:30:52] Maggie Darwin: lone: Yes, but a *lot* more people will wander around promiscuously fetching URLs now.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:31:16] Charlette Proto: we have shared sewers ever since cities were built, so we will get used to media problems just the same
  • 2010-02-26 [18:31:25] lonetorus Habilis: andrew, its been covered extensivly at the doc team oh and kates oh
  • 2010-02-26 [18:31:30] lonetorus Habilis: probably many more
  • 2010-02-26 [18:31:33] Rex Cronon: js can be bad, but flash can be worse:(
  • 2010-02-26 [18:31:37] Falcon Linden: All right folks, sorry about the delay there. Still want to chat about my theories on client-side physics?
  • 2010-02-26 [18:31:40] Maggie Darwin: Sewers are on the output side, in my town.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:31:47] Techwolf Lupindo: Flash can take down the entire OS.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:31:49] Xugu Madison: Falcon. let me think... hell yes!
  • 2010-02-26 [18:31:52] RedMokum Bravin: Maggie :-)
  • 2010-02-26 [18:31:54] Simon Linden: Falcon - much more than shared media
  • 2010-02-26 [18:31:54] Jonathan Yap: Tell us more Falcon
  • 2010-02-26 [18:32:00] Morgaine Dinova: We don't hav Flash, do we?
  • 2010-02-26 [18:32:08] Maggie Darwin: Yes, tell my why it will solve multisecond ping sim
  • 2010-02-26 [18:32:19] Arawn Spitteler: We've got to image the results, of physics, so why not client side?
  • 2010-02-26 [18:32:24] Morgaine Dinova: Has the MoaP stuff added Flash?
  • 2010-02-26 [18:32:32] Rex Cronon: the shared media supports flash
  • 2010-02-26 [18:32:35] lonetorus Habilis: more, sure we do
  • 2010-02-26 [18:32:38] lonetorus Habilis: morg even
  • 2010-02-26 [18:32:41] Squirrel Wood: yes. you can watch youtube in SL now
  • 2010-02-26 [18:32:45] Falcon Linden: Okay, so first let me remind everyone that the opinions expressed are entirely mine and not those of LL and that there are no specific plans to provide client-side physics right now :-P
  • 2010-02-26 [18:32:51] Sebastean Steamweaver: Falcon :D
  • 2010-02-26 [18:32:53] Simon Linden: MoaP doesnt add it, but if you have it installed it can use Flash
  • 2010-02-26 [18:32:56] Chaley May: i would like to know about client side physics and possible scripted movement client side too if your going that route
  • 2010-02-26 [18:32:57] lonetorus Habilis watches as morg pops a fuse
  • 2010-02-26 [18:33:09] Geo Islay: you tube is moving to HTML5
  • 2010-02-26 [18:33:20] Morgaine Dinova: Oh great. So not only is our NoScript bypassed by MoaP, but also our Flashblock.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:33:26] Charlette Proto: Falcon - I believe that clientside phys especially muting someone (block locally) would be of more value than blocking media
  • 2010-02-26 [18:33:29] Falcon Linden: Now that we have that out of the way, it's well known since the days of QuakeWorld that by putting physics prediction on the client, you can hide up to 200ms of server lag
  • 2010-02-26 [18:33:30] RedMokum Bravin: scripted movement... only people who enable it client side see you move? huh
  • 2010-02-26 [18:33:40] RedMokum Bravin: sorry
  • 2010-02-26 [18:33:43] Maggie Darwin: SVC-5357 and VWR-15781
  • 2010-02-26 [18:33:45] Meeter: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-5357
  • [#SVC-5357] Logins randomly show multi-second ping sim values
  • 2010-02-26 [18:33:49] Meeter: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-15781
  • [#VWR-15781] Erratic rendering freeze (subsec to 20 sec) on all viewers
  • 2010-02-26 [18:34:13] Morgaine Dinova: Simon: how do we stop MoaP using Flash?
  • 2010-02-26 [18:34:24] lonetorus Habilis: falcon, indeed, but is sl not already doing prediction (i was assuming same or similar code)
  • 2010-02-26 [18:34:37] Falcon Linden: No, SL uses dead reckoning on the viewer
  • 2010-02-26 [18:34:46] lonetorus Habilis: morg, dont run v2?
  • 2010-02-26 [18:34:48] Falcon Linden: That's why you find yourself flying through walls and then rubberbanding back out
  • 2010-02-26 [18:35:01] Falcon Linden: The viewer has no knowledge of physics right now
  • 2010-02-26 [18:35:04] lonetorus Habilis: or block the process in your local firewall
  • 2010-02-26 [18:35:09] Morgaine Dinova: lone: V2 will become mandatory, it's only a matter of time
  • 2010-02-26 [18:35:18] Simon Linden: Morgaine - I don't know, that's a good question for the viewer office hours
  • 2010-02-26 [18:35:18] Wut Moorlord: yeah, actually being able to e.g. disable flash (hence youtube) would make MoaP usable for me
  • 2010-02-26 [18:35:42] Morgaine Dinova: Youtube is moving to HTML5 anyway.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:35:47] Wut Moorlord: ohdear
  • 2010-02-26 [18:35:51] Wut Moorlord: i am doomed =]
  • 2010-02-26 [18:35:52] Techwolf Lupindo: I can see RickRolling prims now. :-)
  • 2010-02-26 [18:35:52] Charlene Trudeau: which is the viewer office hours
  • 2010-02-26 [18:35:58] Wut Moorlord: Techwolf!nooooo
  • 2010-02-26 [18:35:59] lonetorus Habilis: falcone, so its about time it became a bit more aware of phys, so what do you have in mind?
  • 2010-02-26 [18:36:04] lonetorus Habilis: fullblown H7 for clients?
  • 2010-02-26 [18:36:06] Sebastean Steamweaver: Charlene :D
  • 2010-02-26 [18:36:08] Jonathan Yap: Falcon, have you thought about using dead reckoning for X seconds and then if no update packet comes from the server to stop the avatar at that point? I have seen myself "fly" to some very strange coordinates in a very slow sim (e.g. -600m down)
  • 2010-02-26 [18:36:38] Falcon Linden: Jonathan: Interesting idea, actually. I hadn't thought about that. Personally, I'd rather just invest the time in client-side physics
  • 2010-02-26 [18:36:39] Wut Moorlord: hehe, i've shot to -100000000 in x before due to that
  • 2010-02-26 [18:36:40] Chaley May: so the viewer will kindve simulate the physics it expects from what it knows and checks with the region server from time to time?
  • 2010-02-26 [18:36:52] Falcon Linden: Basically the way client-side prediction works is this:
  • 2010-02-26 [18:36:56] Charlette Proto: Benjamin Linden had an office hour, but he dumped it when Viewer 2 went into dev
  • 2010-02-26 [18:37:17] Maggie Darwin: OK, I can see ping sim isn;t actually related to that.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:37:21] Morgaine Dinova: Havok is closed source. Is that why you've decided to closed sourcing the main LL viewer, so that you can add client-side Havok physics?
  • 2010-02-26 [18:37:22] Simon Linden: Jonathan - I remember a discussion in LL about that a while back ... I don't remember the resolution but viewer 2.0 might handle it better. That always irked me too
  • 2010-02-26 [18:37:31] Arawn Spitteler: All the Viewer 2 Office Hours might still be scheduled for the NDA
  • 2010-02-26 [18:37:41] Falcon Linden: The client has a full set collision data about the world and the avatar. You press "Forward" and the viewer attempts to move you forward according to the physics simulation
  • 2010-02-26 [18:37:44] Jonathan Yap: Yea, it seems like it would be easy to implement
  • 2010-02-26 [18:37:50] Falcon Linden: Meanwhile, it sends a message to the server saying you've started moving forward
  • 2010-02-26 [18:37:57] lonetorus Habilis: surely knowledge of v2 is more than 1 day old, so NDA should have lifted?
  • 2010-02-26 [18:38:16] Falcon Linden: The server will eventually get around to determining whether you've really moved forward or not and will pass on your actual position and velocity to the client
  • 2010-02-26 [18:38:39] Maggie Darwin: Timeless Prototype is having OH ...maybe he won't blow smoke up my butt. :-)
  • 2010-02-26 [18:38:42] Chaley May: i think client side physics sounds like it would be a great addition
  • 2010-02-26 [18:38:48] Arawn Spitteler: I remember Zero discussing P2P as the future
  • 2010-02-26 [18:39:02] Falcon Linden: When the client receives the update packet, it checks to see if its prediction was right. If so, yay! If not, it goes back and puts you where you should have been back then. And then it replays all of your actions since then to make them consistent with the server
  • 2010-02-26 [18:39:17] Morgaine Dinova: Falcon: would client-side physics use Havok?
  • 2010-02-26 [18:39:25] lonetorus Habilis: so there might still be rubberbanding
  • 2010-02-26 [18:39:36] Falcon Linden: Morgaine: Absolutely not
  • 2010-02-26 [18:39:40] lonetorus Habilis: but ok, i recall that from quake too, didnt happen very often
  • 2010-02-26 [18:39:40] Morgaine Dinova: Good
  • 2010-02-26 [18:39:50] Falcon Linden: Ionetorus: Yes, but it's far less noticeable. Look at any multiplayer FPS
  • 2010-02-26 [18:40:02] Techwolf Lupindo: Why replay? Why not go back to the point the instead of what the server said. Or was you refering to replaying the point after that?
  • 2010-02-26 [18:40:06] Falcon Linden: You don't see rubberbanding there though it is theoretically possible
  • 2010-02-26 [18:40:11] Techwolf Lupindo: -the
  • 2010-02-26 [18:40:21] lonetorus Habilis: and once ll sets up infrastructure in europe, there should be even less rubberbanding
  • 2010-02-26 [18:40:36] Morgaine Dinova: We need rubberbanding here, to recreate the MMO player experience.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:40:36] Falcon Linden: Techwolf: Yes, you replay your moves from after the update's timestamp
  • 2010-02-26 [18:40:37] lonetorus Habilis: most routes add a good 100ms across the atlantic
  • 2010-02-26 [18:40:43] Falcon Linden: Ionetorus: That will never solve the problem fully
  • 2010-02-26 [18:41:06] lonetorus Habilis: well, i means eu datacenter + client side phys
  • 2010-02-26 [18:41:08] Jonathan Yap: lonetorus, the Europe site will only help if the region you are in is hosted there
  • 2010-02-26 [18:41:11] Charlette Proto: FPS will be crap in Second Life™ so long as individual avatars don't have a limit on the load imposed
  • 2010-02-26 [18:41:35] lonetorus Habilis: jonathan, yes, and i sure hope ll will place them smartly according to usage stats
  • 2010-02-26 [18:41:37] Falcon Linden: Morgaine: As for the Havok being closed source, not to worry. We would provide a wrapper and pre-compiled libs so that third party viewers could choose to use our pre-compiled libs or wrap an open source physics engine and use that
  • 2010-02-26 [18:41:54] Squirrel Wood: infrastructure in europe will speed up texture load time if anything
  • 2010-02-26 [18:42:09] Rex Cronon: when i come to this OH, and others my fps start to go down, due to what everybody wears:(
  • 2010-02-26 [18:42:09] Falcon Linden: Here's another cool thing with client-side physics/scripting
  • 2010-02-26 [18:42:22] Simon Linden: There would be some interesting licensing dances with H7 on the client, but it's possible
  • 2010-02-26 [18:42:22] Techwolf Lupindo: Falcon, PLEASE keep in mind 64-bit system when doing binarly libs.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:42:22] Charlette Proto: 100ms is theoretical I think 200ms is more like the real figure when you include repeater latency and local conditions at both ends
  • 2010-02-26 [18:42:33] Xugu Madison: Falcon, makes me wonder... have you tried SL with an open-source physics engine, see how it goes?
  • 2010-02-26 [18:42:40] Squirrel Wood: 120ms is typical
  • 2010-02-26 [18:42:56] Falcon Linden: Imagine having a script that says "Preload the following list of textures and sounds so they'll be here when triggered by the client prediction"
  • 2010-02-26 [18:43:11] Falcon Linden: Xugu: No. I came from Havok (my last employer) and I know the performance issues of open source physics engines.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:43:16] Charlette Proto: Ping Sim in Austaralia is always 200 plus
  • 2010-02-26 [18:43:27] Jonathan Yap: Texture load times using http (e.g. Snowglobe 1.3 and I think viewer 2.0) is amazingly faster
  • 2010-02-26 [18:43:29] Simon Linden: I'd like to see some smarter caching on the viewer ... like "this texture is common, so keep it around"
  • 2010-02-26 [18:43:31] Rex Cronon: i think we already have a lsl function for preloading souds
  • 2010-02-26 [18:43:36] Xugu Madison: Falcon, decent answer, good to know
  • 2010-02-26 [18:43:49] Falcon Linden: Techwolf: No reason not to provide 64-bit libs.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:43:50] Alexia Leborski: and anything over 80 ms is affects voice quality
  • 2010-02-26 [18:43:59] lonetorus Habilis: generally the cache could be a lot smarter and BIGGER!!
  • 2010-02-26 [18:44:04] Squirrel Wood: preloading sounds fails just as often as triggering them directly
  • 2010-02-26 [18:44:11] Andrew Linden: We haven't tried any other physics engine but Havok for a very long time. However the interface to the physcis engine is much clearner than it used to be, so it might not be too hard to swap in a different physics engine
  • 2010-02-26 [18:44:13] Falcon Linden: Alexia: Even latencies on the order of a single frame can ruin an audio experience
  • 2010-02-26 [18:44:19] Techwolf Lupindo: I think the biggest obsticle of the open source phy engine is no full time talented devloloper to keep coding at it.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:44:21] Andrew Linden: however.... all sorts of content would break.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:44:27] Squirrel Wood: I cannot play a multi-sound gesture without it messing up
  • 2010-02-26 [18:44:39] Sebastean Steamweaver: Yes Falcon, Yes yes yes.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:44:40] Morgaine Dinova: Falcon: I don't understand your 2-line answer. The first line said "absolutely not" to client-side Havok, and the 2nd line said how you'd go about doing it.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:44:41] Falcon Linden: No, it wouldn't be impossible to swap out a different physics engine. But yes, it would break considerable content and I can almost guarantee the performance would be mediocre
  • 2010-02-26 [18:44:54] Squirrel Wood: sounds either don't load, take ages to load or are just delayed up to 10+ seconds
  • 2010-02-26 [18:45:12] Falcon Linden: Morgaine: No, that's not what I meant. I meant "absolutely not" as in, Havok has nothing to do with whether or not the viewer is open source
  • 2010-02-26 [18:45:23] Sebastean Steamweaver: We need better sound functions, and longer sound bits :)
  • 2010-02-26 [18:45:27] Morgaine Dinova scratches head
  • 2010-02-26 [18:45:46] Sebastean Steamweaver inserts two cents.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:45:57] lonetorus Habilis: i have been away for a bit, how is the list of fixes with large returns comming along?
  • 2010-02-26 [18:46:03] Charlette Proto: not sure Alexia (delay yes but not quality) at 240 most of the time my voice is better than most people since my CPU can do compression well and bandwidth is ample on my link - so quality may not be the issue with ping times
  • 2010-02-26 [18:46:24] Falcon Linden: Techwolf: Try working on a physics engine to understand the performance concerns. The reason Havok is so good is that it has to be in order to work well on, e.g., PS3 or Xbox360
  • 2010-02-26 [18:46:40] Chaley May: i keep clicking the red button
  • 2010-02-26 [18:46:41] Xugu Madison 's wondering if we can start a list of Linden confirmed changes that would take lots of time for little return, as a counterpoint :)
  • 2010-02-26 [18:47:06] Falcon Linden: Sebastean: Audio will only be decent when it's entirely client-side
  • 2010-02-26 [18:47:16] Chaley May: i think i turned off media on a prim
  • 2010-02-26 [18:47:38] Falcon Linden: Morgaine: You asked: "Havok is closed source. Is that why you've decided to closed sourcing the main LL viewer, so that you can add client-side Havok physics?"
  • 2010-02-26 [18:47:55] Morgaine Dinova: And the answer is?
  • 2010-02-26 [18:47:58] Techwolf Lupindo: I think when the http texture featrue is enabled, sounds will imporve as they won't be fighting with texture for server bandwith.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:48:06] Charlette Proto: Vivox audio is good - people use crappy mics and lack spare CPU cycles to compress, plus bandwidth
  • 2010-02-26 [18:48:24] Falcon Linden: Morgaine: I replied "Absolutely not." As in, "We can add Havok on the client without making it closed source and without requiring all clients to use Havok"
  • 2010-02-26 [18:48:37] Falcon Linden: Charlette: I meant audio as a game feature, not voice
  • 2010-02-26 [18:48:41] Morgaine Dinova: Oh, I see, thanks for clarifying.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:48:49] lonetorus Habilis: charlotte, i still wish vivox had a better echo filter for all those silly ppl that dont use a headset ;)
  • 2010-02-26 [18:48:55] Falcon Linden: Techwolf: Sounds will still be far too delayed
  • 2010-02-26 [18:48:57] Rex Cronon: how would a viewr run this black box havok? as a separate thread?
  • 2010-02-26 [18:49:07] Alexia Leborski: I am just stating specifications that the major telco carriers utilize to maintain their performance metrics...not sure all of the things you guys add, but hey have lots of other approaches for voice packet prioritization, and other Traffic Engineering parameters to manage out of order voice packets, etc.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:49:16] Falcon Linden: Rex: Why would it need to be a separate thread?
  • 2010-02-26 [18:49:16] Charlette Proto: but echo filtering makes crappy sound
  • 2010-02-26 [18:49:22] Simon Linden: +1 Ione. Hands-free operation with a laptop is great, but it really needs good echo cancellation
  • 2010-02-26 [18:49:28] Andrew Linden: I think the "main LL viewer" (Viewer-2.0) was made closed source becuase the executives wanted to try to make a splash with it, so they didn't want to deploy it as incremental improvements to the main viewer.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:49:52] Saijanai Kuhn: i.e. marketing
  • 2010-02-26 [18:49:54] Andrew Linden: er... incremental improvements to the "legacy viewer"
  • 2010-02-26 [18:50:01] Andrew Linden: yes Saijani
  • 2010-02-26 [18:50:02] lonetorus Habilis: well, i think skype has pretty decent sound (and filter)
  • 2010-02-26 [18:50:04] Rex Cronon: it does have to process obj pos in paralel with the rendering engine, and other processes that te viewr runs. right?
  • 2010-02-26 [18:50:05] Charlette Proto: game sound actually is good quality and not too bad for positional stuff, just that wav files fail to load a lot or load late
  • 2010-02-26 [18:50:12] Saijanai Kuhn: but you have to have Steve Jobs' feel for secrecy to make Steve Jobs style marketing work
  • 2010-02-26 [18:50:16] Techwolf Lupindo eyes the hawk....
  • 2010-02-26 [18:50:24] Arawn Spitteler tries to imagine, who'd been chained to the new viewer, when they decided it should splash
  • 2010-02-26 [18:50:32] Falcon Linden: Rex: Naah, you could run it serially with rendering. It just wouldn't be a good idea.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:50:46] Techwolf Lupindo grins "Gotyou"
  • 2010-02-26 [18:50:47] Falcon Linden: Rex: But whether it runs in parallel or not, that could be up to the individual viewer
  • 2010-02-26 [18:50:50] Charlette Proto: like all assets, inworld sounds struggle with the server loads
  • 2010-02-26 [18:50:51] Sebastean Steamweaver: My biggest problem is that the files I'd like to use are 15-25 seconds long, and I can only upload 10.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:50:54] Wut Moorlord: what like secretly demoing Mac II's with more ram than would ever be shipped, saij? ;)
  • 2010-02-26 [18:51:01] Falcon Linden: i.e., someone could make a third party viewer that ran physics in parallel
  • 2010-02-26 [18:51:47] Andrew Linden: I think the plan is for most (all?) of the Viewer-2.0 work to get merged into the snowglobe project
  • 2010-02-26 [18:51:55] Andrew Linden: now that it is in open beta
  • 2010-02-26 [18:51:55] Sebastean Steamweaver: So my choices are: ruin the sound, get a different sound and change the operation to match, or break up the sound and try painstakingly to get them to load (and play) properly in sequence. llSetSoundQueuing doesn't always work.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:51:58] Morgaine Dinova: Falcon: are you aware of Linden's IETF efforts at VWRAP? We're working towards interop between virtual worlds, which includes Opensim and other open worlds with a similar model. VWRAP will carry all traffic between viewers and worlds, so if you intend that traffic to include control of client-side physics, it's going to have to be added to the VWRAP protocol, or it won't happen.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:52:04] Alexia Leborski: yeah...mics and headsets play a big part in the quality of the audio...we used to specify what brands and models to use because we had so many complaints about that at the last company I worked at
  • 2010-02-26 [18:52:05] Charlette Proto: haha we will call clientside phys viewer - the Falcon Viewer
  • 2010-02-26 [18:52:18] Andrew Linden: I think snowglobe and viewer-2.0 do share some code that is not in the legacy viewer (1.23)
  • 2010-02-26 [18:52:20] Falcon Linden: Charlette: I like it :)
  • 2010-02-26 [18:52:28] Wut Moorlord: Charlette: that sounds cool xD
  • 2010-02-26 [18:52:52] Arawn Spitteler: Falcon's Eye
  • 2010-02-26 [18:52:59] Falcon Linden: Morgaine: I have no idea what you just said, but it sounds great :)
  • 2010-02-26 [18:53:09] Falcon Linden: something with a lot of acronyms is always good
  • 2010-02-26 [18:53:18] RedMokum Bravin: I also saw 2 debug settings that carried an Emerald label in v2.0 :-)
  • 2010-02-26 [18:53:33] Falcon Linden: Arawn: Even better.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:53:34] Charlette Proto: OMG
  • 2010-02-26 [18:53:39] Rex Cronon: why would havok engin run client side need to send data to other viewers or to the server. unless the server no longer runs its own havok engine
  • 2010-02-26 [18:53:58] Falcon Linden: Let's have a competition to see who can come up with the best way to name a product after me
  • 2010-02-26 [18:53:59] Alexia Leborski: all echo filtering does not equate to bad audio...it depends on the echo filtering you use and the specific algorithms that the filters use
  • 2010-02-26 [18:54:30] Falcon Linden: Rex: It wouldn't. The server is always authoritative and the client should never send physics data to the server
  • 2010-02-26 [18:54:37] lonetorus Habilis: and how come phys is still broken at this sim?
  • 2010-02-26 [18:54:48] Morgaine Dinova: Falcon: this article will give you an idea about what I just said --- 3 of us wrote it for IEEE Internet Computing, one of us being Joshua Linden --- http://internetmessagingtechnology.org/pubs/VWRAP-for-Virtual-Worlds-Interoperability-mic2010010073.pdf
  • 2010-02-26 [18:54:54] Alexia Leborski: sorry...delayed on the chat...echo cancellation is absolutely required
  • 2010-02-26 [18:55:01] Simon Linden: Agreed Alexia ... I worked on a product a few years ago that had good echo cancellation in it
  • 2010-02-26 [18:55:17] Squirrel Wood: broken in one way... the object looks as if its flying away, its physical presence (blocking) is where the object should be seen though
  • 2010-02-26 [18:55:30] Rex Cronon: therefore there is no need for the vwrap to take into consideration the locally run physics engine. right morgaine:)
  • 2010-02-26 [18:55:36] Falcon Linden: Thanks Morgaine, I'll have a look at that
  • 2010-02-26 [18:55:45] Wut Moorlord: redmokum: !!!
  • 2010-02-26 [18:55:47] Wut Moorlord: xD
  • 2010-02-26 [18:56:43] Arawn Spitteler: Did someone say Nuts, in stead of Sheep? I like to keep my hand in, but don't think Sindy is available
  • 2010-02-26 [18:56:47] lonetorus Habilis: morg, yeah what about what rex said
  • 2010-02-26 [18:56:48] RedMokum Bravin: I wonder why I took off all attachments to avoid lag in a meeting, like we always do in the Arbor Group :-p
  • 2010-02-26 [18:56:50] Alexia Leborski: skype is good...my view is why reinvent the wheel when you can utilize some one else's technology if it is their core competency by licensing or partnering
  • 2010-02-26 [18:56:52] Charlette Proto: you trying to demonstrate something Squirrel? or just hungry for nuts
  • 2010-02-26 [18:57:12] Morgaine Dinova: Skype is a direct channel to the snoops.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:57:13] lonetorus Habilis: i often find myself switching to skype when talking to ppl that dont have a headset
  • 2010-02-26 [18:57:14] Squirrel Wood: reinvent the wheel to avoid insane licensing costs ?
  • 2010-02-26 [18:58:13] Techwolf Lupindo: skype isn't exaclly free.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:58:28] lonetorus Habilis: morg, sure, but skype has good echo filtering ;)
  • 2010-02-26 [18:58:29] Geo Islay: it free
  • 2010-02-26 [18:58:33] Sebastean Steamweaver: Andrew, I did have one topic I wanted to bring up if I could (I need to leave soon).
  • 2010-02-26 [18:58:38] Squirrel Wood: yes. demonstrating the brokenness of physics in this sim :) As I said, you see the prims fly away, their physical representation however is where its supposed to be. thus you get "phantom" prims which are actually not real phantom prims. though the percieved result is identical
  • 2010-02-26 [18:58:43] Falcon Linden: Sebastean: You and us both :)
  • 2010-02-26 [18:58:47] Morgaine Dinova: Rex: that depends whether it needs any control or runs completely isolated in the client. That's why I said "if it needs control" then it would have to go through VWRAP.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:58:53] Andrew Linden: go ahead Sebastian.
  • 2010-02-26 [18:59:10] Andrew Linden: er... Sebastean
  • 2010-02-26 [18:59:13] Falcon Linden: Squirrel: I want to add support for keyframing objects around. That would solve the animation-without-moving-physics problem
  • 2010-02-26 [18:59:16] Sebastean Steamweaver: There is a subtask now on efficient scripts for llSetObjectscale/llGetObjectscale
  • 2010-02-26 [18:59:22] Sebastean Steamweaver: SVC-5328
  • 2010-02-26 [18:59:22] Meeter: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-5328
  • [#SVC-5328] llSetObjectScale and llGetObjectScale
  • 2010-02-26 [18:59:24] Alexia Leborski: why can't you channel the voice and audio streams through a different server or blade so you man manage the performance needs better?...then it wouldn't compete with the performance required for teleporting?
  • 2010-02-26 [18:59:32] Falcon Linden: Morgaine: It needs info from the simulator but not the other direction
  • 2010-02-26 [18:59:37] Alexia Leborski: ...just a dumb newbie question...
  • 2010-02-26 [18:59:51] Sebastean Steamweaver: In it, Kelly Linden asks if its necessary since we're getting llGetLinkPrimitiveParams / llSetLinkPrimitiveParamsFast
  • 2010-02-26 [18:59:59] Simon Linden: Voice actually isn't going through our servers already - it's all done with an outside system
  • 2010-02-26 [19:00:08] Morgaine Dinova: Nothing is ever free. When something is free you know that someone is benefitting indirectly. In the case of Skype, it's the governments.
  • 2010-02-26 [19:00:11] Sebastean Steamweaver: The comment responses give a reply about why he feels it still needs a dedicated function.
  • 2010-02-26 [19:00:19] lonetorus Habilis: falcon, like, bake a phys calculation as prim keyframes?
  • 2010-02-26 [19:00:21] Sebastean Steamweaver: What are your thoughts on that?
  • 2010-02-26 [19:00:29] Wut Moorlord: Morg: linux is free?
  • 2010-02-26 [19:00:34] Andrew Linden: Skype doesn't have the 3D mixing tech that we get from Vivox
  • 2010-02-26 [19:00:40] Techwolf Lupindo: I've LL been advertizing for a delvoloper with voip skills. I hope LL is thinkinig of a open source vovix replacment. I hate to think of the huge bill that vovix carries.
  • 2010-02-26 [19:00:53] Falcon Linden: Ionetorus: Yeah, basically. Maybe not even bake. Maybe using a notecard that you could write to and that the physics would read from to get key frames.
  • 2010-02-26 [19:01:00] Andrew Linden: Sebastean, I now fear making any changes to LSL
  • 2010-02-26 [19:01:09] lonetorus Habilis: andrew, and frankly the 3d thing is not working out well, always adjusting volumes etc
  • 2010-02-26 [19:01:10] Andrew Linden: at least, in the short term until we have LSL versioning
  • 2010-02-26 [19:01:15] Geo Islay: you can screen share with skype
  • 2010-02-26 [19:01:21] Sebastean Steamweaver: Well, this wouldn't be a change, it would be an addition, something new.
  • 2010-02-26 [19:01:27] Morgaine Dinova: Wut: It's a good comeback, but I was referring to commercial things. Skype is commercial. Same applies to all the Google services .,. someone is benefitting.
  • 2010-02-26 [19:01:34] Sebastean Steamweaver: It wouldn't be a change to something currently in existence that is.
  • 2010-02-26 [19:01:36] Wut Moorlord: Morg: =P
  • 2010-02-26 [19:01:46] lonetorus Habilis: ffalcon, we have been asking for data storage to notecard, for a very long time, would be good to see a ll effort push for it
  • 2010-02-26 [19:02:12] lonetorus Habilis: falcon, also what you describe is to some degree already possible through many resident made lsl scripts
  • 2010-02-26 [19:02:13] Charlette Proto: Open Source audio seems to suck bad
  • 2010-02-26 [19:02:24] Andrew Linden: I think we might make a few feature additions if the payoff is really high, but we're starting to focus on the replacement to legacy LSL
  • 2010-02-26 [19:02:35] Geo Islay: it well get better just klike sl
  • 2010-02-26 [19:02:41] Morgaine Dinova: We'll have writeable storage in VWRAP. LL may or may not implement it.
  • 2010-02-26 [19:02:45] Falcon Linden: Ionetorus: Sorry, I didn't mean notcards. Forgot you can't write to those. Something else, though
  • 2010-02-26 [19:02:47] Falcon Linden: :)
  • 2010-02-26 [19:02:55] Andrew Linden: if we can add all the features wanted in the new script system, then no need to add them to LSL
  • 2010-02-26 [19:02:59] lonetorus Habilis: :/
  • 2010-02-26 [19:03:12] Techwolf Lupindo: objectrezise would be the biggest payoff. No more 200 script shoes.
  • 2010-02-26 [19:03:19] lonetorus Habilis: writing to notecards would be awsome
  • 2010-02-26 [19:03:25] Andrew Linden: so... you might see a dearth in attention to LSL, sorta like the freeze in development on the legacy viewer-1.23
  • 2010-02-26 [19:03:27] Wut Moorlord: Andrew: how new will the new script system be?
  • 2010-02-26 [19:03:30] Falcon Linden: Honestly I dislike the way notecards are used
  • 2010-02-26 [19:03:34] Falcon Linden: but meh
  • 2010-02-26 [19:03:44] Falcon Linden: However, it's now after 5
  • 2010-02-26 [19:03:44] Wut Moorlord: Andrew: for example, will + by left associative rather than right(!) associative?
  • 2010-02-26 [19:03:49] Wut Moorlord: s/by/be/
  • 2010-02-26 [19:03:51] Sebastean Steamweaver: As I understood it, that was what llSetObjectScale was all about? The poster's concerns are throttling on llGetLinkPP and llSetLinkPPF, all of the setup involved and the redundant checks for info the server already knows.
  • 2010-02-26 [19:03:52] Xugu Madison: Yeah, don't keep mushing stuff into notecards, give us persistant space for scripts IMHO
  • 2010-02-26 [19:04:01] Charlette Proto: isn't it time to replace LSL with JavaScript
  • 2010-02-26 [19:04:03] Andrew Linden: Wut, we're out of time to talk about the new script engine. But you really want to ask Babbage or Kelly Linden.
  • 2010-02-26 [19:04:04] lonetorus Habilis: yeah, it was better when you could upload any data type, right andrew? ;)
  • 2010-02-26 [19:04:05] Rex Cronon: why would u need 200 scripts in a shoe to resize it, whe u cando it with only one script?
  • 2010-02-26 [19:04:19] Wut Moorlord: Andrew: ahh, cool, fair enough. :)
  • 2010-02-26 [19:04:21] Andrew Linden: Kelly Linden works by Pacific hours
  • 2010-02-26 [19:04:25] Rex Cronon: ok. maybe 2
  • 2010-02-26 [19:04:26] Morgaine Dinova: They won't be notecards, they'll be something else. VWRAP isn't going to be purposely incompatible with SL, just provide additional features. Anyone will be free to implement them, or not.
  • 2010-02-26 [19:04:36] lonetorus Habilis: rex, i do it in 7 scripts
  • 2010-02-26 [19:04:38] Andrew Linden: Perhaps he could be convinced to come to these office hours and talk about his plans.
  • 2010-02-26 [19:04:45] Charlette Proto: surely there is no point adding to a language with thousands of constants because it doesn't have a good architecture in the first place
  • 2010-02-26 [19:04:52] Sebastean Steamweaver: I've contacted Kelly about it actually, but haven't really gotten much response on the topic.
  • 2010-02-26 [19:05:01] Andrew Linden: Ah.
  • 2010-02-26 [19:05:20] Sebastean Steamweaver: We Imed back and forth a bit I sent him some info on the topic, and there was no reply
  • 2010-02-26 [19:05:45] Andrew Linden: Well, if I can convince him to come to these office hours you could put him on the spot.
  • 2010-02-26 [19:05:57] Andrew Linden: I'll look into it.
  • 2010-02-26 [19:06:02] Sebastean Steamweaver: I'll be happy to show up :)
  • 2010-02-26 [19:06:22] Sebastean Steamweaver: I'm sure Kelly is busy, don't get me wrong, but the opportunity to talk to him about it would be very invaluable, and informative.
  • 2010-02-26 [19:06:36] Morgaine Dinova: Andrew: if you've been following opensource-dev, you'll kinow that Firefly is not adequate.
  • 2010-02-26 [19:06:37] Andrew Linden: Ok, I'll try to remember that: Alert Sebastean if Kelly decides to attend OH.
  • 2010-02-26 [19:06:55] Andrew Linden: I haven't been following it. Too busy.
  • 2010-02-26 [19:07:08] Sebastean Steamweaver: Thank you very much Andrew, and Falcon and Simon
  • 2010-02-26 [19:07:14] Sebastean Steamweaver: I need to run for work though. Take care all
  • 2010-02-26 [19:07:19] Falcon Linden: Cheers, Sebastean!
  • 2010-02-26 [19:07:21] Morgaine Dinova: Too busy implementing things that meet only your requirements, not those of the community
  • 2010-02-26 [19:07:24] Andrew Linden: Yeah, I've got to go now. See you all later.
  • 2010-02-26 [19:07:25] Xugu Madison: Thanks everyone, and see you next week!
  • 2010-02-26 [19:07:27] Andrew Linden: Thanks for coming.
  • 2010-02-26 [19:07:28] Rex Cronon: tc seb
  • 2010-02-26 [19:07:35] Charlette Proto: BYEE good folk
  • 2010-02-26 [19:07:36] Chaley May: cya
  • 2010-02-26 [19:07:40] Wut Moorlord: cyas
  • 2010-02-26 [19:07:42] Rex Cronon: tc andrew
  • 2010-02-26 [19:07:46] Rex Cronon: tc xugu
  • 2010-02-26 [19:07:58] Rex Cronon: tc wut
  • 2010-02-26 [19:07:59] Simon Linden: Thanks all for coming
  • 2010-02-26 [19:08:26] Charlette Proto: time to switch to Snow (to get voice) and live some social life now
  • 2010-02-26 [19:08:26] Simon Linden: Bye, see you next time
  • 2010-02-26 [19:08:32] Arawn Spitteler: /me's glad the buisy lindens could lounge about, for a bit
  • 2010-02-26 [19:08:34] lonetorus Habilis serves up some hawthorne tea for morg
  • 2010-02-26 [19:08:43] Morgaine Dinova: Well client-side scripting is going to have to go through VWRAP, so that's going to be interesting.
  • 2010-02-26 [19:08:43] Rex Cronon: tc simon
  • 2010-02-26 [19:08:48] Wut Moorlord: aha. teatime.
  • 2010-02-26 [19:08:53] Charlette Proto: BTW any ideas on why voice wouldn't connect in viewer 2???
  • 2010-02-26 [19:09:03] lonetorus Habilis: yeah i though morg didnt seem bitter enough yet
  • 2010-02-26 [19:09:21] Charlette Proto: haha Lone
  • 2010-02-26 [19:09:24] Jonathan Yap: Charlette, were you hearing ppl from another viewer ok?
  • 2010-02-26 [19:09:28] Rex Cronon: if is client-side why does it need vwrap?
  • 2010-02-26 [19:09:29] Morgaine Dinova: Indeed. I'm more amused than anything else at LL ignoring the community completely.
  • 2010-02-26 [19:09:42] Arawn Spitteler: I can't even find V2. I downloaded it, and tried it, but it got lost in my system
  • 2010-02-26 [19:10:05] lonetorus Habilis: did you look in ~/ ?
  • 2010-02-26 [19:10:14] Charlette Proto: yes, that is all other viewers work but Viewer 2 on Win 7 and Vista shows my dot etc, but doesn't see (grayed) other users
  • 2010-02-26 [19:10:30] Alexia Leborski: cya
  • 2010-02-26 [19:10:36] Rex Cronon: tc
  • 2010-02-26 [19:10:42] Jonathan Yap: Hmmm, I remember getting a notice from my virus protection program when I first ran V2.0
  • 2010-02-26 [19:11:05] lonetorus Habilis: anti virus is spotty to begin with already
  • 2010-02-26 [19:11:05] Jonathan Yap: Maybe you have a firewall issue there
  • 2010-02-26 [19:11:10] Rex Cronon: it installed a root kit:)
  • 2010-02-26 [19:11:28] lonetorus Habilis: not sure its helping them with these predictive methods of identifying malware
  • 2010-02-26 [19:11:29] Xugu Madison: Going to head to bed, night all!
  • 2010-02-26 [19:11:32] Morgaine Dinova: Rex: LL's design for client-side scripting makes scripts come from server-side. That requires communition between client and server, so it'll have to go over VWRAP n due course.
  • 2010-02-26 [19:11:40] Charlette Proto: not an issue for me (Norton etc) even checked windows firewall exceptions - suspect my router is blocking something added to viewer 2
  • 2010-02-26 [19:11:45] RedMokum Bravin: Good night
  • 2010-02-26 [19:12:01] Rex Cronon: is just data morgaine
  • 2010-02-26 [19:12:25] lonetorus Habilis: whatcha making falcon?
  • 2010-02-26 [19:12:35] Alexia Leborski: well....I gotta run...Catch you all later
  • 2010-02-26 [19:12:40] Alexia Leborski: Bye
  • 2010-02-26 [19:12:55] Rex Cronon: u just need to mark it as client side script and that is it all that the protocol needs to know:)
  • 2010-02-26 [19:12:55] Morgaine Dinova: Just data doesn't appear by magic in the client, it has to be received by the client. That means that once everything migrates to VWRAP, so will the client-side script comms.
  • 2010-02-26 [19:13:42] lonetorus Habilis: well, who says you have to bring stuff with you to begin with ;)
  • 2010-02-26 [19:14:28] lonetorus Habilis: well, in any case, you think its likely getting sl to play along
  • 2010-02-26 [19:14:29] Charlette Proto: clientside JavaScript PLEASE, ditch LSL development for good
  • 2010-02-26 [19:15:01] Rex Cronon: flying pie:)
  • 2010-02-26 [19:15:05] Wut Moorlord: well. javascript with package and class syntax extensions maybe
  • 2010-02-26 [19:15:11] lonetorus Habilis: i thought it was planned to include a bit higher level languages as a lsl compliment
  • 2010-02-26 [19:15:17] Wut Moorlord: doing everything with closures is a bit ouch =]
  • 2010-02-26 [19:15:29] Morgaine Dinova: Rex: ain't gonna happen to send binaries for execution on the client, the risk is insane. I don't see Lindens accepting the risk for all your L$ disappearing.
  • 2010-02-26 [19:15:29] lonetorus Habilis: like c# or python
  • 2010-02-26 [19:15:35] Charlette Proto: tell me what isn't done in JavaScript on the web these days
  • 2010-02-26 [19:15:39] Jonathan Yap: C# is going to be available this year
  • 2010-02-26 [19:15:56] Morgaine Dinova: C# will run sim-side.
  • 2010-02-26 [19:16:20] Rex Cronon: lol. i am not rich morgaine:)
  • 2010-02-26 [19:16:43] Charlette Proto: C# on the sim is a separate thing from the need to have decent scripting on the clientside
  • 2010-02-26 [19:16:50] Wut Moorlord: oh, javascript can do it, but if you added like, 3 extra statements, package, import, class, then it would be much much less unpleasant
  • 2010-02-26 [19:17:18] Jonathan Yap: And you don't want all your scripts sandboxed on the client
  • 2010-02-26 [19:17:25] lonetorus Habilis: charlette, what would you use it for on the client?
  • 2010-02-26 [19:17:26] Rex Cronon: morgaine. a flash that that takes over your compute also can empty all your L$
  • 2010-02-26 [19:17:44] Chaley May: does that mean client side scripts will be stored in our prims ?
  • 2010-02-26 [19:17:50] Morgaine Dinova: Javascript is only ever sent in source form for execution in browsers, and even then there are exploits, loads of them. Receiving binaries and executing them on your PC is something only the clueless will do.
  • 2010-02-26 [19:17:52] Charlette Proto: class is a Java thing and objects in JavaScript are 100% good except for inheritance (Java is same on that)
  • 2010-02-26 [19:18:13] Charlette Proto: JavaScript objects and prototypes are fantastic
  • 2010-02-26 [19:18:47] Wut Moorlord: Charlette: yes, i can give you examples of what 'class' expands to- private sections are closures trapped inside the class itself, whereas public objects are on the object properties list.
  • 2010-02-26 [19:19:16] Morgaine Dinova: Rex: why do you think FlashBlock exists? It's because not all people are oblivious to the risk. Flash is one of the most exploited facilities PC-side ever.
  • 2010-02-26 [19:19:46] Charlette Proto: I understand OOP Wut and Javascipt has 100% good compliance except for inherritance in my view
  • 2010-02-26 [19:19:54] Rex Cronon: can u use flash block with v2.0?
  • 2010-02-26 [19:20:31] Wut Moorlord: this hasn't got anything to do with oop, charlette, just encapsulation. inheritance in javascript is based on self's prototype system, which is perfectly okay.
  • 2010-02-26 [19:20:33] Morgaine Dinova: Rex: nope. Lindens have bypassed our security without asking us.
  • 2010-02-26 [19:20:41] Morgaine Dinova: Pretty typical of Lindens
  • 2010-02-26 [19:20:58] Charlette Proto: anyway I think high performance JavaScipt VMs are the thing today and we should take advantage of that
  • 2010-02-26 [19:21:05] Rex Cronon: u see. the same risk as running binaries
  • 2010-02-26 [19:21:21] Morgaine Dinova: Flash files *are* binaries.
  • 2010-02-26 [19:21:26] Charlette Proto: byee from me too - need to play with voice a bit
  • 2010-02-26 [19:21:26] Wut Moorlord: javascipts bigger wins are in the creating closures front anyway, oop sucks, functional wins. javascript has it. it just misses 3 things to make it a pleasant language to build huge systems with
  • 2010-02-26 [19:21:33] Wut Moorlord: seeya charlette
  • 2010-02-26 [19:21:34] Morgaine Dinova: And that's a major cont
  • 2010-02-26 [19:21:43] Morgaine Dinova: ibting factor to all the Flash exploits.
  • 2010-02-26 [19:21:51] Morgaine Dinova: contributing*
  • 2010-02-26 [19:21:55] Chaley May: bye Charlette
  • 2010-02-26 [19:21:58] Wut Moorlord: well and adobe are drooling morons
  • 2010-02-26 [19:22:17] Wut Moorlord: that helps. they destroyed ecma-4, thus removing all the practical extensions to javascript xD
  • 2010-02-26 [19:22:18] Rex Cronon: u see why java is better:)
  • 2010-02-26 [19:22:19] Morgaine Dinova: Oh yea, that needs to be mentioned Wut :-)
  • 2010-02-26 [19:22:39] Charlette Proto: ECMA 4 was a total joke sorry
  • 2010-02-26 [19:23:08] Morgaine Dinova: Adobe are certainly drooling morons. I don't wish to comment on the effect of all the people from Adobe recruited to LL thought.
  • 2010-02-26 [19:23:14] Charlette Proto: the worst example of Open Consortium in the world and I'm glad it failed to shut some of the people there
  • 2010-02-26 [19:23:17] Wut Moorlord: there were language theorests from netscape, and adobe across the ECMA table, language theorists said "oh hai, we have a denotational semantics for javascript". adobe went "pretty colours are nice"
  • 2010-02-26 [19:23:55] Wut Moorlord: i agree- some of the type semantics for ECMA4 were a bit clunky. on the other hand, EMCA4-harmony then failed to even provide namespaces. which was a big fail
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