User:Benjamin Linden/Office Hours/2008-07-31

Transcript of Rx's Office Hours:

[14:58]	Geneko Nemeth:	New viewer? Where?
[14:59]	Lex Neva:	1.20 was released
[14:59]	McCabe Maxsted:	the opengrid one or 1.20?
[14:59]	Geneko Nemeth:	Oh.
[14:59]	Lex Neva:	that'n
[14:59]	Geneko Nemeth is still on 1.20.14
[14:59]	Lex Neva:	I'm still on 1.19.1.4.nicholaz.somethingorother
[14:59]	McCabe Maxsted:	ah, yeah. For all SL's faults I'll say this: it's UI whallops imvu's
[14:59]	Lex Neva:	eek, jellyfish :o
[14:59]	McCabe Maxsted:	their avatars are better, but that's the only benefit i'm seeing righ tnow
[14:59]	Malbers Linden:	yes, i'm very dangerous
[14:59]	Geneko Nemeth:	Speaking of versions, which version has "this is not a bug, but a featuer" in the About Second Life dialog?
[14:59]	McCabe Maxsted:	ahoy malbers
[14:59]	Lex Neva:	I hate to say it, but that must mean imvu's got a monumentally horrible UI ;)
[15:00]	McCabe Maxsted:	haha it really does lex, it really does...
[15:00]	Pier Jaecies:	hello malbers
[15:00]	Malbers Linden:	howdy all
[15:00]	McCabe Maxsted:	it opens three diferent windows when you run it -_-
[15:00]	McCabe Maxsted:	ahoy, aimee!
[15:00]	Squirrel Wood complains about http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n108/echogreek/its-a-trap.jpg STILL being an issue :p
[15:00]	Lex Neva:	ugh
[15:01]	Squirrel Wood:	And https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-632 as well :p
[15:01]	Geneko Nemeth:	... what's wrong?
[15:01]	Aimee Trescothick:	hallo :)
[15:01]	Lex Neva:	haha
[15:01]	Lex Neva:	VWR-8900: don't drop the soap
[15:01]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe
[15:01]	Aimee Trescothick:	am I in time for the tentacle waving? :D
[15:01]	Lex Neva:	I agree, squirrel. It's bad that common features like that are only available to scripters.
[15:01]	McCabe Maxsted resolves that as a duplicate of VWR-5000 "can't walk anymore"
[15:01]	Malbers Linden:	ah good, nice to see people reading my email
[15:02]	Geneko Nemeth:	Whoaa. Ann has considerably increased her ARC. XD
[15:02]	Aimee Trescothick:	:D
[15:02]	McCabe Maxsted:	god
[15:02]	McCabe Maxsted:	and it's full of chat bubbles too
[15:02]	McCabe Maxsted closes it and runs
[15:02]	Lex Neva:	So, have you folks seen MISC-1137, a meta issue about usability?
[15:02]	Squirrel Wood:	Quantum Core (search slx for it) adds 130k to ARC
[15:02]	McCabe Maxsted:	ahoy there ben, kippie
[15:03]	Pier Jaecies:	hi ben
[15:03]	Pier Jaecies:	hey kippie
[15:03]	Benjamin Linden:	hi all
[15:03]	Kippie Friedkin:	Hi everybody!
[15:03]	Aimee Trescothick:	whee, sit down and now I'm apparently at 0,0,1
[15:03]	Geneko Nemeth:	Bad Squirrel T_T
[15:03]	McCabe Maxsted:	I've been following it lex
[15:03]	Aimee Trescothick:	with ben too it seems
[15:03]	Aimee Trescothick:	though my conciousness is still here
[15:04]	Squirrel Wood:	A.T.H.E.N.A. - zorba sirtaki mix ^^
[15:04]	IM: Harleen Gretzky: Howdy :) Got busy in RL :( Hate when it interferes with my SL :P
[15:04]	Lex Neva:	That's creepy, like... imagine that bug with a full-immersion virtual world ;)
[15:04]	Lex Neva:	sitting and ending up at 0,0,0 would be an out-of-body experience
[15:04]	Aimee Trescothick:	LOL
[15:05]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe, a friend of mine used to get a distorted 3D world whenever she sat; she was going to do a whole "surrealist SL" exhibit of the snapshots but the bug went away
[15:05]	Lex Neva:	weird
[15:05]	Benjamin Linden:	I'm pulling up MISC-1137 Lex
[15:06]	Squirrel Wood:	sitting and ending up at 0,0,0 where the parcel at 0,0,0 is set to a group access only for a group you are not a member of is fatal. you will need to relog.
[15:06]	Lex Neva:	I got hit with a little annoyance the other day that I finally paid conscious attention to... you hold shift and drag a prim in edit mode to duplicate it, but you also hold shift and click prims to select multiple prims
[15:06]	Lex Neva:	and sometimes, if you have a sensitive mouse and/or a twitchy hand, it can be ambiguous and unclear whether you just accidentally made a duplicate of your selection
[15:06]	Benjamin Linden:	wow nice roll-up of issues Lex
[15:06]	Lex Neva:	Thanks :)
[15:06]	Lex Neva:	Add more as you find em!
[15:07]	Squirrel Wood bounces MISC-632 off of Benjamins head repeatedly ;)
[15:07]	Aimee Trescothick:	can we add a JIRA tab to search btw? ^^ :D
[15:07]	Malbers Linden:	yow -- MISC-1137 is HUUUUUGE
[15:07]	McCabe Maxsted:	yeah, I've done that before; or if you're trying to select multiple prims by shift selecting and you accidentally hit the grid over thingy
[15:07]	Kippie Friedkin:	Wow, that's pretty sweet. Gotta mark that one down.
[15:07]	Lex Neva:	Malbers, sadly, I think it only scratches the surface of the real usability issues in SL... I just did a search for things like "usability"
[15:08]	Benjamin Linden:	yes I think that's right Lex
[15:08]	Benjamin Linden:	we do need to do a better job of communicating these issues and advocating for them internally
[15:08]	Lex Neva:	there're so many, that's a big job
[15:08]	Squirrel Wood:	petition against double-tap run ?
[15:08]	Geneko Nemeth:	Maybe add JIRA as an optional search domain, because I don't think JIRA should be as upport channel...
[15:08]	Benjamin Linden:	so what does everyone think of 1.20?
[15:08]	Malbers Linden:	yeah, even HUUUGE != everything
[15:08]	Squirrel Wood:	petition against petition against double tap run is required! I must create the issue now.
[15:09]	Lex Neva:	I haven't tried it yet. I'm nervous about some things like double-tap-run and the disappearing tools menu.
[15:09]	Aimee Trescothick:	they're not big barriers
[15:09]	McCabe Maxsted:	I'm fond of VWR-6559; a lot of stuff in there is easily actionable, or already has a patch
[15:09]	Squirrel Wood:	double tap run "interferes" with some boost scripts that kick you half across the sim
[15:09]	Lex Neva:	also I haven't gotten around to it
[15:09]	McCabe Maxsted:	1.20 is my fav viewer thus far
[15:09]	Benjamin Linden:	what are the concerns about the doubletap issue
[15:10]	Aimee Trescothick:	isn't there an option to turn that off though now?
[15:10]	Kippie Friedkin:	I ran into that boost script issue this afternoon.
[15:10]	McCabe Maxsted:	yeah, in advanced character I believe
[15:10]	Geneko Nemeth:	It's in the advanced menu though...
[15:10]	Benjamin Linden:	this is a good one too mccabe (VWR-6559)
[15:10]	Kippie Friedkin:	But you can disable that option
[15:10]	Squirrel Wood:	I have no issues with it but those boost/dash scripts are scripted for double tap detection
[15:10]	Lex Neva:	the other big thing is that I'm still annoyed at the whole communicate window and the (relatively) new friends list, so I'm kind of dependent on nicholaz's patches that reverse some of that
[15:10]	Kippie Friedkin:	Advanced > Character > Tap-Tap-Hold-Run
[15:10]	Aimee Trescothick:	character->tap-tap-hold to run
[15:10]	Aimee Trescothick:	:)
[15:10]	Kippie Friedkin:	hehe
[15:11]	Squirrel Wood:	I have no issues with the communicate window. but then again I don't run SL at 320x240 resolution :p
[15:11]	Lex Neva:	Benjamin, I'm concerned that the doubletap thing will be easy to trigger accidentally, hard to do purposefully, and that it might interfere with the already fragile and buggy LSL llTakeControls system. All unsubstantiated, just things I'm concerned about.
[15:11]	Aimee Trescothick:	they can be triggered by double tapping the space navigator too :S
[15:11]	McCabe Maxsted:	it relaly is easy to trigger; when it was first implemented I kept running without knowing why; would have filed a bug report if I didn't see the comments on the blog
[15:11]	Benjamin Linden:	have you actually used it Lex?
[15:12]	Lex Neva:	I'm annoyed at not having a "friends" button on the bottom bar. I use that _so_ much that two clicks to get there is annoying.
[15:12]	Aimee Trescothick:	I like it generally though, but did stop wearing my dash which was getting triggered too much
[15:12]	McCabe Maxsted:	now I'm just more careful in my mouse movements, I suppose
[15:12]	Lex Neva:	McCabe: that's a problem, running without knowing why
[15:12]	Lex Neva:	that means a user feels confused/out of control
[15:12]	McCabe Maxsted:	err keyboard movements
[15:12]	Benjamin Linden:	I was worried that it would interfere with my omniphase but it doesn't actually
[15:12]	Kippie Friedkin:	Absolutely, Nex. I agree.
[15:12]	Lex Neva:	Not yet, Benjamin
[15:12]	Benjamin Linden:	what do you mean Lex?
[15:12]	Lex Neva:	I haven't used 1.20 yet
[15:13]	Benjamin Linden:	oic
[15:13]	Lex Neva:	cause I'm nervous ;)
[15:13]	Aimee Trescothick:	ah, no I'm confusing issues
[15:13]	Benjamin Linden:	are people having problems with doubletap, who've actually used it?
[15:13]	Lex Neva:	I will soon... I'm also waiting to see if there are any straggler bugs
[15:13]	Aimee Trescothick:	stopped wearing omniphase because it was getting triggered by the SN
[15:13]	Squirrel Wood:	You are missing out by not using 1.20
[15:13]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, I had that problem Aimee
[15:13]	Malbers Linden:	I find it a lot more stable on my Mac == 1.20
[15:14]	Kippie Friedkin:	Me too, Malbers. I'm actually seeing fewer crashes on Quit too.
[15:14]	Squirrel Wood:	Lex, with 14 RC iterations there are no "major" bugs in 1.20
[15:14]	Malbers Linden:	agreed
[15:14]	Aimee Trescothick:	ah right, wasn't sure if it was a general thing or just me, have made lots of mods to the SN support in my viewer
[15:14]	Lex Neva:	I'm still gonna give it a little while ;)
[15:14]	Aimee Trescothick:	I can run by pushing it harder and stuff :)
[15:14]	Harleen Gretzky:	I have Nicholaz and older versions of teh viewer in a separate directories so I can choose which I want to use
[15:14]	Lex Neva:	in linux everything's in a separate directory
[15:15]	Benjamin Linden:	Malbers, did you send out a topic for this meeting?
[15:15]	Aimee Trescothick:	topic was tentacle spinning
[15:15]	Benjamin Linden:	we were going to have a follow-up discussion on Dusan's contest?
[15:15]	Geneko Nemeth:	His topic was "watch him spin with tentacles a-flying".
[15:15]	Benjamin Linden:	lol
[15:15]	Malbers Linden:	there were a few posted by McCabe on the email alias
[15:15]	Kippie Friedkin:	That happened last week, didnt it?
[15:15]	Benjamin Linden:	a few topics?
[15:15]	Lex Neva:	I'd like to talk about the tools menu, if we need a topic
[15:15]	Aimee Trescothick:	but we seem to be without Jacek, so I guess Malbers is doing a solo ;)
[15:15]	Squirrel Wood:	Well, I see not much tentacle spinning going on atm
[15:15]	Benjamin Linden:	ok we have Tools menu
[15:15]	Benjamin Linden:	other topics?
[15:15]	Lex Neva:	or, more generally, I'd like to talk about the idea I've seen put out occasionally, of having two viewers, one for new/nontechnical users, and one for power users.
[15:15]	Geneko Nemeth:	I would want to give a suggestion on password input or something?
[15:15]	Malbers Linden:	i'm saving it
[15:16]	Malbers Linden:	Internationalization?
[15:16]	Kippie Friedkin:	Oooo..yes..that's agreat one.
[15:16]	Geneko Nemeth:	No, just the display with ‚Ä¢ instead of *
[15:16]	Geneko Nemeth:	But the font bundled with SL has a problem with ‚Ä¢.
[15:16]	Lex Neva:	What a cute little ‚Ä¢!
[15:16]	Malbers Linden:	We've had a specific I18N person come on board recently
[15:17]	Malbers Linden:	She's been doing a lot of work on the defining the plumbing we need
[15:17]	Lex Neva:	ooh
[15:17]	Squirrel Wood:	¬°«ù…üƒ±l puo…î«ùs
[15:17]	Benjamin Linden:	whoa!
[15:17]	Kippie Friedkin:	That's great news
[15:17]	Squirrel Wood:	that was supposed to be "Second Life" upside down
[15:17]	Benjamin Linden:	how did you do that squirrel
[15:17]	Malbers Linden:	server and client and website
[15:17]	Squirrel Wood:	http://www.revfad.com/flip.html
[15:17]	Lex Neva:	On a tangent: do you folks have any professional usability experts, e.g. masters-level or above?
[15:18]	Aimee Trescothick points at Ben? :D
[15:18]	Benjamin Linden:	ás«ù á …ê sƒ± sƒ±…• á
[15:18]	Malbers Linden:	what do you mean "usability expert" lex?
[15:18]	Benjamin Linden:	crazy
[15:18]	Lex Neva:	Well, I mean, there's a field of computer science, Human-Computer Interaction
[15:18]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, Lex, we do. at least three
[15:18]	Lex Neva:	awesome :D
[15:18]	Geneko Nemeth:	Maybe I should study the courses to become one.
[15:18]	Lex Neva:	I'm getting more and more tempted to go back for my masters ;)
[15:18]	Benjamin Linden:	there are also several program and product managers with HCI backgrounds
[15:18]	Lex Neva:	(in HCI)
[15:19]	Benjamin Linden:	we're slowly starting to have our way with the engineering group :-)
[15:19]	Lex Neva:	hahaha
[15:19]	Lex Neva:	good
[15:19]	Malbers Linden points out that it's not always in CS either
[15:19]	Lex Neva:	tell them what's up
[15:19]	Lex Neva:	Because really... the usability needs to run the show.
[15:19]	Benjamin Linden:	I'll tell them Lex sent us :-)
[15:19]	Lex Neva shakes fist menacingly ;)
[15:19]	Benjamin Linden:	so about the Tools menu
[15:19]	Benjamin Linden:	let's hear it
[15:19]	Lex Neva:	right
[15:19]	Lex Neva:	Well, again, I haven't directly seen it... but I think that's going to be a case of people getting confused about why their menu "disappears"
[15:20]	Lex Neva:	they go to try to do something and they don't know why they can't, and it's not clear that they have to hit "Build"
[15:20]	Squirrel Wood:	ye. hidden tools menu annoys me too
[15:20]	Lex Neva:	but I do see why it was done... to unclutter the UI. I just don't know if it was a good way to achieve that.
[15:20]	Lex Neva:	I know _I_ will get annoyed by it, personally
[15:20]	Aimee Trescothick:	yeah, but when there's stuff you need in there when build isn't already open ...
[15:21]	Lex Neva:	I'd suggest this... part of what makes the UI so daunting for new people is that there are so many tasks that users in SL might need to perform
[15:21]	Benjamin Linden:	there's been a lot of discussion about this internally. the general concensus has been to revert that change.
[15:21]	Lex Neva:	because there are so many different kinds of users. Try to make an interface fit a wide range of people, and you end up with an interface that fits no one...
[15:21]	Aimee Trescothick:	:) cool
[15:21]	Lex Neva:	oooh, yay
[15:21]	Kippie Friedkin:	hmm
[15:21]	Dirk Talamasca:	It wouldn't be so bad if there weren't tools that you need to select there that don't necessarily require you to be building.. For instance if you have select only my objects on and you want to check out the creator of an object in a shop, it is sort of a pain in the ass.
[15:21]	Pier Jaecies:	it is a challenge
[15:21]	Benjamin Linden:	and yes, the reasoning behind the change was to minimize UI for new users. unfortunately that particular change didn't have much data supporting it
[15:21]	Kippie Friedkin:	What does that mean for the menu reorg project?
[15:22]	Benjamin Linden:	in fact I just got confirmation that it's already been reverted
[15:22]	Lex Neva:	So I would like to hear the LL folks' opinion on this idea: splitting into at least two viewers, based on the distinctly different roles of users. Give me a power-user interface that doesn't get in my way when I want to do stuff, and give new people and nontechnical users an interface that lets them easily find the operations they need while hiding (or eliminating) the power-user, techie, building/scripting features.
[15:22]	Lex Neva:	yay!
[15:22]	Benjamin Linden:	it shouldn't have any bearing Kippie, since we were already factoring in the Tools menu into the reorg
[15:23]	Malbers Linden:	agreed (w/ Ben)
[15:23]	Benjamin Linden:	we've talked about having a lightweight or newbie UI
[15:23]	Squirrel Wood:	Lex, that would not require two clients if the UI were skinnable / scriptable / changeable even easier than now
[15:23]	Benjamin Linden:	and in fact have recently revisited that possibility
[15:23]	Kippie Friedkin:	gotcha...I'm just curious how users are going to react to the larger menu reorg if they are struggling with a lost tools menu
[15:23]	Lex Neva:	squirrel makes a good point
[15:23]	Lex Neva:	switching skins to power-user mode would rock
[15:23]	Benjamin Linden:	ah yes, Kippie, that's a bigger issue. migrating people to a new structure
[15:24]	Lex Neva:	the big point is to have a well-defined audience, which is the first step to making a good UI
[15:24]	McCabe Maxsted:	now there's an interesting thought: going back to what lex was saying about the friends list; if we have calls built into the viewer for different elements that can be accessed via skins, a newbie/advanced skin would be easy to do
[15:24]	Kippie Friedkin:	Change management....love it :)
[15:24]	Benjamin Linden:	yes agreed
[15:24]	Benjamin Linden:	we've been working on personas for some time
[15:24]	Lex Neva:	I'm really glad to hear that
[15:24]	McCabe Maxsted:	(sorry was afk, just caught up)
[15:24]	Benjamin Linden:	ultimately the plan is for the UI to be completely data driven McCabe
[15:25]	McCabe Maxsted:	I'll be very happy when that happens *evil grin*
[15:25]	Squirrel Wood:	<window mode="expert,beginner"> blah </window>
[15:25]	Lex Neva:	Benjamin, if you folks wanted to make those personas publically visible, I'd love to see em :)
[15:26]	Squirrel Wood:	What SL needs is a client side "assistant" like the ones in word who always detect that I want to write a letter and get on my nerves :p
[15:26]	Lex Neva:	haha
[15:26]	Geneko Nemeth:	...
[15:26]	Lex Neva:	"It looks like you're trying to get that damn script to compile...."
[15:26]	McCabe Maxsted:	hahahaha
[15:26]	Kippie Friedkin:	oh no
[15:26]	Kippie Friedkin:	not clippy!
[15:26]	McCabe Maxsted:	we really do need a clientside tutorial though
[15:26]	Lex Neva:	I like that idea
[15:27]	Aimee Trescothick:	and secretary to do my inventory filing for me
[15:27]	Lex Neva:	oh gosh, the inventory D:
[15:27]	Kippie Friedkin:	clientside tutorials would be great....and very useful to new users
[15:27]	Malbers Linden:	where would you put the clientside tutorial? attached to what part of the experience?
[15:27]	McCabe Maxsted:	that's one thing I did like about my (painful) experience with imvu, and with other applications like it: the tutorials were a lot more friendly. OI is really a horrible place to throw noobs
[15:27]	Benjamin Linden:	there is a tutorial in 1.20
[15:27]	Benjamin Linden:	under the help menu
[15:27]	McCabe Maxsted:	that's no where close to being a useful tutorial
[15:27]	Benjamin Linden:	very short and simple
[15:27]	Lex Neva:	what does it consist of?
[15:27]	Lex Neva:	is it just text in a browser window?
[15:28]	McCabe Maxsted:	that's basically the instructions you get with furniture at ikea
[15:28]	Dirk Talamasca:	Who made the suggestion on the list that Orientation be included in the viewer? Not a bad idea if something was actually taught. Sure saves a lot of confusion on whether or not you are finished and where to go next. Would save a lot of lag and servers running OIs too
[15:28]	Benjamin Linden:	it's simple web pages
[15:28]	Squirrel Wood:	a tutorial that guides you through your first IM chat? your first time joining a group? ...
[15:28]	Geneko Nemeth:	OI took a bit long to rez and 500ms is bit of a problem if you connect across the oceans.
[15:28]	Lex Neva:	I'd think more like something actually integrated in the interface, that points to parts of the UI, and even gives you visual examples of doing tasks
[15:28]	McCabe Maxsted:	I'm talking about a real tutorial to show you the ropes, one that guides you and perhaps gives you linden rewards when you do something correctly, but that's part of the user interface itself
[15:28]	Lex Neva:	people learn well by example
[15:28]	Geneko Nemeth:	Not that I'm connecting across the oceans now...
[15:29]	Malbers Linden:	(brainstorming) as part of the 2d UI or with content inworld?
[15:29]	Lex Neva:	2d content
[15:29]	Squirrel Wood:	Like, appearance tutorial "unlocks" a nice outfit out of a selection of n outfits in the db ...
[15:29]	Lex Neva:	But fully integrated into the viewer. Specifically, it could tell when you've completed a task, such as panning the camera
[15:29]	Kippie Friedkin:	That's a great idea.
[15:29]	McCabe Maxsted:	I don't know if you read my email post earlier today, but I think logging an avatar into a localhost area before throwing them into the main grid would be a lot better than the OI system we have now: put htem somewhere private where they can learn at their own pace so you can show their reactions to the UI tutorial in real time
[15:29]	Kippie Friedkin:	A lot of first person shooters do that.
[15:30]	Lex Neva:	right
[15:30]	Lex Neva:	nintendo's gotten really good at the in-game tutorial
[15:30]	McCabe Maxsted:	yeah, exactly. It's a lot easier to pick up a game and get imersed in it that wya
[15:30]	Malbers Linden:	McCabe, like the Matrix's Construct
[15:30]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe
[15:30]	Malbers Linden:	or Snowcrash's Library
[15:30]	Benjamin Linden:	I do like that idea McCabe
[15:30]	McCabe Maxsted:	basicaly, but with more guns
[15:30]	Lex Neva:	"I need some prims? *whooosh*"
[15:30]	Benjamin Linden:	I've been brainstorming something similar
[15:30]	McCabe Maxsted:	OI/Help islands aren't scalable. Not at all
[15:31]	Benjamin Linden:	client-side has the additional advantage of being low-lag
[15:31]	Kippie Friedkin:	Oh, agreed totally.
[15:31]	Lex Neva:	right
[15:31]	Malbers Linden:	I think a lot of people like that idea
[15:31]	Squirrel Wood:	I sense that you want to build. Would you like me to show you all the different prim types? yes? *WOOOOSH*
[15:31]	Lex Neva:	and more reliable, Benjamin
[15:31]	Geneko Nemeth:	But Second Life isn't a game and can't really teach you all you need to know across a period of time/story/whatever...
[15:31]	Dirk Talamasca:	That was the one McCabe.. I agree.. In fact, I thought many moons ago that the turial should have been placed on the web as well.. Certain things that you would not be able to interact with as if you were inworld.. but it was always especially silly not to have a way to teach offline at that time because SL was down every other day.
[15:31]	McCabe Maxsted:	there's also no social pressure in client side. I don't know if you've seen people on OI alot, but they seem to be pressured by other people around them. If there are a lot of people at one area, it'll be avoided altogether
[15:32]	Kippie Friedkin:	Geneko..that's true...but a clientside tutorial could quickly teach you the ropes..walking, running, flying, sitting, standing back up.
[15:32]	Lex Neva:	Also, no one's going to see you naked.
[15:32]	Malbers Linden:	Downsides to the Construct/Library?
[15:32]	McCabe Maxsted:	exactly, kippie, and other stuff that's not taught now, like shopping
[15:32]	Kippie Friedkin:	Great for beginners..and then allow maybe downloadable client-side modules for tutorials
[15:32]	Lex Neva:	Malbers: no people to ask for help
[15:32]	Benjamin Linden:	it is an interesting tension
[15:32]	Aimee Trescothick:	remembering back to my first login the first thing I did was run away from everyone else so that they didn 't bother me while I found my way round the client lol
[15:32]	Kippie Friedkin:	McCabe...yep
[15:32]	Benjamin Linden:	between people who feel intimidated by other folks
[15:32]	Lex Neva:	Malbers: and also, it may not be feasible on low- to mid-end systems
[15:32]	Benjamin Linden:	and people feeling lonely and isolated
[15:33]	Geneko Nemeth:	It doesn't have to be client-side, it could be done if servers somehow support instances, ...
[15:33]	McCabe Maxsted:	it should be feasible on any system taht can run SL; it should mimick the world
[15:33]	Dirk Talamasca:	Hell Aimee I stiil sometime run away when I am trying to build or texture near someone
[15:33]	Kippie Friedkin:	Being on an OI reminds me of a grade school dance.
[15:33]	Squirrel Wood:	Avatars.. What do avatars look like in SL? *WOOOOSH* rez rez rez rez rez npc...
[15:33]	Aimee Trescothick:	LOL
[15:33]	Lex Neva:	McCabe: physics? That could run into licensing issues
[15:33]	Kippie Friedkin:	Lots of people standing around afraid to talk or move.
[15:34]	Benjamin Linden:	yes
[15:34]	Kippie Friedkin:	So moving things client side...so you can learn without fear orf making a mistake in front of others would be useful.
[15:34]	Benjamin Linden:	exactly
[15:34]	Geneko Nemeth:	And there's no lag.
[15:34]	Aimee Trescothick:	my ability to ignore people without being bothered about feeling rude has been increased significantly by using SL for a few years :D
[15:34]	McCabe Maxsted:	what licensing issues would there be for physics?
[15:34]	Benjamin Linden:	I think if we dropped people somewhere where there's already socializing going on it would work better
[15:34]	Malbers Linden:	In the era of OpenSim, stand-alone Constructs could be created
[15:34]	Geneko Nemeth:	Havok is , um, a commercial product I guess.
[15:34]	Squirrel Wood:	How about void sim light? 32x32m "sims" where only one user can be in at the same time ?
[15:35]	Lex Neva:	McCabe: they can't do a full sim on your system with physics, because they'd need a special havok license, I think?
[15:35]	Aimee Trescothick:	it could be done with a "lite" physics engine
[15:35]	Squirrel Wood:	you could host a couple dozen of those on a singe machine
[15:35]	Squirrel Wood:	script time won't matter there
[15:35]	Aimee Trescothick:	depending what you hand in the tutorial that needed physics
[15:35]	Benjamin Linden:	so let's go back to this idea of a "simple" UI
[15:35]	McCabe Maxsted:	yeah, but I assue that wouldn't be hard to get. A lighter engine might even be more ideal: a tigheter controlled envronment
[15:36]	Aimee Trescothick:	yeah
[15:36]	Benjamin Linden:	one of my concerns about that is that it doesn't grow with users as they become more advanced
[15:36]	Lex Neva:	ow
[15:36]	Lex Neva:	hi, xenius.
[15:36]	Kippie Friedkin:	lol
[15:36]	Aimee Trescothick:	lol
[15:36]	Malbers Linden:	right -- transistion to the Full UI
[15:36]	Xenius Revere:	allo allo
[15:36]	Lex Neva:	you're sharp
[15:36]	Benjamin Linden:	I'd rather see a UI that's starts out simple and unintimidating but then matures with the user
[15:36]	Squirrel Wood:	a simple UI to me is not visible on screen when not needed and once it IS needed, tries to be as unobtrusive as possible.
[15:36]	Aimee Trescothick:	that looks painful
[15:36]	Pier Jaecies:	i agree ben
[15:36]	Benjamin Linden:	yes Squirrel exactly
[15:36]	Xenius Revere:	o dear, am i sitting on you? AVs havent rezzed for me yet
[15:36]	Pier Jaecies:	that seems to make a lot of sense
[15:36]	Lex Neva:	Benjamin: that'd be pretty amazing :)
[15:36]	Aimee Trescothick:	probably even more painful once his sculpties rez
[15:36]	Benjamin Linden:	we talked about some of that here
[15:36]	Benjamin Linden:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User_Interface_Improvements
[15:36]	McCabe Maxsted:	matures in that peole discover more about the UI, or the UI itself can be changed to open up more advanced options?
[15:36]	Malbers Linden:	"training whelles "UI approach'
[15:37]	Benjamin Linden:	some of you may have used Eclipse
[15:37]	Benjamin Linden:	it has different UI layouts depending on the task you're doing
[15:37]	Kippie Friedkin:	Ooo...now you're talking
[15:37]	Lex Neva:	That's the key!
[15:37]	Pier Jaecies:	:)
[15:37]	Benjamin Linden:	so you could imagine a "flying around and socializing" mode
[15:37]	Lex Neva:	Because there are _so_ many "hats" people put on in SL.
[15:37]	Benjamin Linden:	that's very simple for new users
[15:37]	Squirrel Wood:	using options in the UI gradually unlocks related advanced options ?
[15:37]	Pier Jaecies:	yes
[15:37]	Pier Jaecies:	flying upon arrival
[15:37]	Lex Neva:	Building, scripting, texturing, shopping, making eyes, putting on clothes...
[15:37]	Benjamin Linden:	then there are other modes or layers that ou can turn on depending on what you're doing
[15:37]	McCabe Maxsted:	I don't think you could do that with SL; there's so many combinations, how could you ever settle on a default for one action?
[15:38]	Benjamin Linden:	right Lex
[15:38]	Benjamin Linden:	it would have to be very flexible mccabe
[15:38]	Lex Neva:	that way I could get a simple interface for anything I want to do.
[15:38]	Lex Neva:	Hopefully switching would be simple... I'm envisioning dockable interface modules.
[15:38]	Malbers Linden:	functions could live in more than one mode
[15:38]	Benjamin Linden:	Eclipse allows you to completely control what you see in any given "mode"
[15:38]	Squirrel Wood:	flexible ui - it adapts to show options that make sense in the current context ?
[15:38]	Benjamin Linden:	right Squirrel
[15:38]	Lex Neva:	Malbers: good idea
[15:38]	Aimee Trescothick:	also long as you can get an "I want it all NOW" mode as well
[15:38]	Benjamin Linden:	yes, this isn't the same as the "ribbon" in office
[15:39]	Malbers Linden:	with a flexible enough UI, you could define your own modes
[15:39]	Benjamin Linden:	which is far less flexible
[15:39]	Malbers Linden:	once you are super-cool enough
[15:39]	Lex Neva:	oh gosh, no, don't look to ms office for ideas D:
[15:39]	Kippie Friedkin:	No, and thank goodness it's not. The ribbon is cluttered and overwhelming
[15:39]	Benjamin Linden:	these would be more like layers of UI you could pull across the screen as needed
[15:39]	Lex Neva:	I wonder if we could exploit the 3d-ness of SL to make a 3D UI.
[15:39]	Lex Neva:	I wonder if that'd be great or horrible.
[15:39]	Benjamin Linden:	I'd like us to explore that more Lex
[15:39]	Benjamin Linden:	I like the idea of an "augmented reality" display
[15:40]	McCabe Maxsted:	w00t she made it :)
[15:40]	Benjamin Linden:	that overlays more data onto the 3d viewe
[15:40]	Benjamin Linden:	view
[15:40]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hi all. *arrives unfashionably late* Completely lost track of time.
[15:40]	Lex Neva:	I once had a fairly extended brainstorm with a friend about turning the inventory into an actual 3d place you go to find your stuff.
[15:40]	Benjamin Linden:	hi Jacek
[15:40]	Kippie Friedkin:	Hey Jacek! :)
[15:40]	Aimee Trescothick:	let the tentacle waving commence :D
[15:40]	Squirrel Wood:	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_interface_design ^^
[15:40]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehehe
[15:40]	Malbers Linden:	like that Lex
[15:40]	Benjamin Linden:	yes I like the inventory as closet idea
[15:40]	Malbers Linden:	wheeeeeee!
[15:41]	Lex Neva:	especially if I could be "in" my inventory while still interacting in the main world
[15:41]	Pier Jaecies:	me too
[15:41]	Waster Skronski:	i would like to see some stability in inventory first then new '3d' features
[15:41]	Lex Neva:	e.g. in a window
[15:41]	McCabe Maxsted:	"trapped in the inv"
[15:41]	Lex Neva:	Of course, Waster... but don't forget, these folks aren't the ones who're doing the work on grid stability :)
[15:41]	Aimee Trescothick thinks her inventory would probably appear as an overgrown garden maze
[15:41]	Geneko Nemeth:	We had one of those massive topic drifts last week :)
[15:42]	McCabe Maxsted:	46,384 here, hehe
[15:42]	Lex Neva:	"you see a maze of twisty passages, all alike and full of a bunch of cruft"
[15:42]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehehe
[15:42]	Malbers Linden:	or a 20' mound of dirty laundry
[15:42]	Squirrel Wood:	go north
[15:42]	Squirrel Wood:	look
[15:42]	Aimee Trescothick:	yes! 3D Monster Maze AS the inventory :D
[15:42]	Lex Neva:	hah
[15:42]	McCabe Maxsted:	you are eaten by a grue
[15:42]	Geneko Nemeth:	You're eaten by a squirrel.
[15:42]	Lex Neva:	in all seriousness: being able to "rez" a shirt would rock.
[15:42]	Aimee Trescothick:	"Footsteps approaching"
[15:42]	Squirrel Wood:	use grappling hook with objectoverthereinthedarkcorner
[15:42]	Xenius Revere:	what about the idea of a totally user-customized UI, similar to how HUDs are used
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli:	And you have to fight off gremlins or they'll run off with your stuff ;)
[15:43]	Aimee Trescothick:	"ah THAT's where I let my shoes!"
[15:43]	Kippie Friedkin:	Think of all the lost socks you'd find!
[15:43]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe
[15:43]	Pier Jaecies:	lol
[15:43]	IM: Rynn Dryke: escuse me, please. i do not want to disrupt the conversation. i#m looking for a place where i can ask a question about sl-groups. and probably suggest a feature, that could be helpful for groupowners. i'm scared that i'm totaly wrong here ;)
[15:43]	Benjamin Linden:	ultimately the plan is to make the UI completely customizable
[15:43]	Benjamin Linden:	like WOW's
[15:43]	Lex Neva:	<3
[15:43]	Waster Skronski:	if it doesnt work, and you inprove it, it stil doesnt work.. the chance of making it work gets smallereverytime you try to make it more complex
[15:43]	Geneko Nemeth:	With client-side scripting?
[15:44]	Benjamin Linden:	yes Geneko
[15:44]	Kippie Friedkin:	Awesome
[15:44]	McCabe Maxsted:	can you just put me in the cryochamber now and wake me up when it's done?
[15:44]	Geneko Nemeth:	That would be awsome!
[15:44]	IM: Rynn Dryke: oh yes, hello :)
[15:44]	Benjamin Linden:	but that's a ways off
[15:44]	Lex Neva:	It'd be really cool to be able to shop around for UIs.
[15:44]	Benjamin Linden:	lol McCabe
[15:44]	Benjamin Linden:	yes I like the idea of tradeable UIs
[15:44]	Squirrel Wood:	Then I insist you start building it the day before YESTERDAY :p
[15:44]	Lex Neva:	I imagine I'd end up making my own, but still
[15:44]	Lex Neva:	haha
[15:44]	Waster Skronski:	The idea of scripting ui would be greatly intresting, however what language wyou wil use, there only a few that are cross platform.
[15:45]	Lex Neva:	If I had to choose one usability change to make starting right now, though, it'd be a revamp of the inventory UI.
[15:45]	Geneko Nemeth:	Would be pretty hard to translate though, if you move all those widgets around. ^_^
[15:45]	Lex Neva:	I constantly feel like I'm wrestling with a gorrilla.
[15:45]	Squirrel Wood:	lsl to script the UI ^^
[15:45]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah, inventory is a pain
[15:45]	McCabe Maxsted:	wasn't there a long wiki page on revamping the inv ages ago?
[15:45]	Geneko Nemeth:	I say JavaScript. Although extending LSL to do this is just very natural idea...
[15:45]	Aimee Trescothick:	what does WoW use, LUA?
[15:46]	Xenius Revere:	agreed, i think inventory management tools really need to be addressed asap, especially for us art/dev types
[15:46]	Geneko Nemeth:	Lua.
[15:46]	Squirrel Wood:	javascript is beyond the comprehension level of most players in SL :p
[15:46]	Kippie Friedkin:	Lua
[15:46]	Lex Neva:	I really really need a way to pull off a window dedicated to just one folder in my inv, like in windows explorer
[15:46]	Kippie Friedkin:	Yes, but not every user in SL will want to write their own customizations
[15:46]	Lex Neva:	LSL is too, Squirrel.
[15:46]	Waster Skronski:	i dont like java, whas thinking more c sharp
[15:46]	Benjamin Linden:	I'd like to go back to this idea of the "simple mode"
[15:46]	Geneko Nemeth:	Javascript isn't Java.
[15:46]	Benjamin Linden:	what do you think new users need to see
[15:46]	Benjamin Linden:	onscreen
[15:46]	Jacek Antonelli:	I really loved McCabe's idea for making a tab out of a folder
[15:46]	Lex Neva:	Good question.
[15:46]	Lex Neva:	"search"
[15:46]	Benjamin Linden:	you get to pick five things
[15:46]	Squirrel Wood:	talk, IM, walk, sit.
[15:46]	Benjamin Linden:	:-)
[15:46]	Xenius Revere:	heavy focus on commication tools
[15:46]	Lex Neva:	"appearance"
[15:47]	IM: Rynn Dryke: we had some troubles in our main sim-group lately with griefers. the group is supposed to be open enrollment so everyone can join freely and easy (we are newbie friendly but not griefer friendly) . now if i eject a griefer from the group, he can join again right away and spam the groupchat. is tehre a feature already that allows groupowners to bann someone from a group permanantly? or is there probably something planned like that? it would probably help groupowners to handle problems on their own, whitout contacting a linden all the time.
[15:47]	Lex Neva:	right, xenius
[15:47]	Xenius Revere:	also some better way to see whats attached to you
[15:47]	Squirrel Wood:	Actually, all they need will be a play/pause button :p
[15:47]	Lex Neva:	I'm sad to say that the list will probably get long quick. It'll take some serious paring down and thinking.
[15:47]	Squirrel Wood:	and next/prev to hop between sims :p
[15:47]	Geneko Nemeth:	A chat bar... inventory... friends... minimap... I can't really thinkg of more?
[15:47]	Lex Neva hits the "rec" button
[15:47]	Xenius Revere:	some sort of rollout listing your body attachment points and the name of whats attached. I know as a new user i was always trying to find out what the hell was on me
[15:48]	McCabe Maxsted:	search, inventory, chat are the three main ones everyone uses
[15:48]	Jacek Antonelli:	Communicate, Search, Inventory, Appearance... one more
[15:48]	Pier Jaecies:	help
[15:48]	Lex Neva:	Xenius, I'm thinking of Diablo, with the picture of the person and slots with arrows pointing to parts of the body.
[15:48]	Jacek Antonelli:	Help. :)
[15:48]	Xenius Revere:	yup yup
[15:48]	Aimee Trescothick:	extend the edit appearnce to show attachments?
[15:48]	McCabe Maxsted:	bah! they shall have no help! this is SL‚Ñ¢ darwinism!
[15:48]	Lex Neva:	aimee: yes, and simplify appearance, too
[15:48]	Squirrel Wood:	A log off / log out button that asks them 20 times if they are really and absolutely sure they want to quit.
[15:48]	Aimee Trescothick:	yes
[15:48]	Xenius Revere:	though that conjures the metaphor of a game visually, which might not be desired
[15:48]	Squirrel Wood:	to be compliant with winbooze
[15:48]	Jacek Antonelli:	McCabe, did you ever make a JIRA for the attachment slots UI?
[15:48]	IM: Rynn Dryke: oh really? i did not know the way how to bring this topic to the right person.
[15:49]	McCabe Maxsted:	yeah, didn't I? the one we posted those images to?
[15:49]	Lex Neva:	Xenius: frankly, I'd rather have people feel at home than try to pound home the "not a game" point
[15:49]	Aimee Trescothick:	I think there is one
[15:49]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hmm, right. Yeah. My memory, she is not so good.
[15:49]	Aimee Trescothick:	related to the "more attachment spots" issue
[15:49]	McCabe Maxsted:	lemme fight the jira real fast
[15:49]	Aimee Trescothick:	as it was given as being the sticking point for that
[15:49]	Lex Neva:	oh, one more for the simple interface: "Help"
[15:49]	IM: Rynn Dryke: indeed. can you explain me what the best way would be to post this idea/suggestion? without disturbing someone, who has nothing to do with it?
[15:50]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah. Help could be a lot more helpful
[15:50]	Xenius Revere:	Lex, what about an overlay toggle, that showed names and arrows pointing to the different locations? thus not requiring an extra window
[15:50]	Lex Neva:	with a greatly reduced number of options, just 4-6 basic topics and a "click here for more" type thing
[15:50]	Squirrel Wood:	build => menu opens "What would you like to build?" => car/house/avatar/junk/bling/more => *WOOOSH* template rezzes.
[15:50]	McCabe Maxsted:	https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-8067
[15:50]	Lex Neva:	That'd be interesting, Xenius.
[15:50]	IM: Rynn Dryke: ah, thank you very much for your help. i'll try this :)
[15:50]	Lex Neva:	Neat idea, Squirrel.
[15:50]	Aimee Trescothick:	http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-489
[15:51]	Aimee Trescothick:	could probably do some linkage there
[15:51]	IM: Rynn Dryke: yes i have found this already over the bullet problem with havok ;) ill try the support first anyways, because i do not know much about scripts and the stuff behind the curtain ;)
[15:51]	McCabe Maxsted:	yar
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli:	Oh, yeah. Bling should be one of the 5 things newbies need to see.
[15:52]	Jacek Antonelli:	Lots and lots of bling
[15:52]	Aimee Trescothick:	LOL
[15:52]	Kippie Friedkin:	and particle emoters
[15:52]	Lex Neva:	Haha, there should be a "Dance" button.
[15:52]	Lex Neva:	I'm only partially kidding.
[15:52]	Kippie Friedkin:	:)
[15:52]	Squirrel Wood:	If it doesn't bling, it is considered uncool.
[15:52]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehehe
[15:52]	Benjamin Linden:	so there seems to be strong concensus that we have search, a chat bar, and inventory
[15:52]	Aimee Trescothick:	yes, most important part of the new user tutorial, fashion advice ^^
[15:52]	Lex Neva:	gestures are a nightmare. Give them a simple dance/pose/etc window.
[15:52]	Benjamin Linden:	what about voice chat controls?
[15:52]	Xenius Revere:	certainly
[15:52]	Aimee Trescothick:	and cultural ettiquette :D
[15:52]	McCabe Maxsted:	I like the way Jacek integrated those with chat and IM; I think that's a good way to go
[15:52]	Benjamin Linden:	Map?
[15:53]	Lex Neva:	communication of all sorts... but not necessarily bunched into one button labelled "communicate"
[15:53]	McCabe Maxsted:	map is useless to n00bs
[15:53]	Xenius Revere:	also, for the newb UI the buttons should be a little less reductive, make the purpose a touch more obvious
[15:53]	Lex Neva:	Maybe map. Maybe not.
[15:53]	Jacek Antonelli:	Hmm. Are there any statistics on how many newbies want to use voice?
[15:53]	Lex Neva:	I'm with McCabe.
[15:53]	Geneko Nemeth:	The current incarnation of map is useless to newbies.
[15:53]	IM: Rynn Dryke: thanks..ill probably have to ask a friend sending this, since i#m without payment info on file. but that helped me alot - at least i know in what direction i have to walk ;)
[15:53]	Lex Neva:	minimap is a tad useless
[15:53]	Benjamin Linden:	interesting insights on the map
[15:53]	Geneko Nemeth:	I think it could be made better, the minimap is like a debugging tool or something now.
[15:54]	McCabe Maxsted:	I'd integrate it as an extension of the minimap
[15:54]	Xenius Revere:	the problem with the Map is that this is a 3d space and the map really kind of ignores this
[15:54]	IM: Rynn Dryke: nah i know youre very busy with it ;) thanks again for your time.
[15:54]	Benjamin Linden:	true
[15:54]	Lex Neva:	main map, what in the world are they goign to make of it? For one thing, the thing takes 5 minutes to load. It's full of confusing green dots, scattered islands all over, no clear indication of where the mainland is (even when I was specifically trying to find it)... and newbies won't have any concept of the world anyway.
[15:54]	Benjamin Linden:	but it is a flat world :-)
[15:54]	Xenius Revere:	the layout of where prims/objects are should be shown as a crosssection taken at the height of the avatar
[15:54]	Xenius Revere:	with maybe a light silhouette of the top-down aggregate
[15:54]	Pier Jaecies:	it does but it is helpful when you want to find people in an area
[15:55]	Pier Jaecies:	the dots could be color coded to show
[15:55]	Xenius Revere:	though that would require more computational overhead to pull off
[15:55]	McCabe Maxsted:	the world is also so big now that even if you zoom all the way out, you don't see all of it; and if you do zoom all the way out, you can't click anywhere to find stuff because it's all too small; the scale's outgrown the usefulness
[15:55]	Pier Jaecies:	who is on the ground or air
[15:55]	Lex Neva:	I don't use the minimap. I wrote a little radar that shows dots and tells the name of each person, how far away they are, and how far above/below they are.
[15:55]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah, I only use the minimap when I want to find which direction I'm facing, or which direction someone has flown off to if I'm supposed to be following them.
[15:55]	Geneko Nemeth:	And it makes a lot of lag too (all those triangles and textures).
[15:55]	Benjamin Linden:	man the map is really slow today
[15:55]	Lex Neva:	Not just today.
[15:55]	Aimee Trescothick:	I sometimes use it to avoid bumping into people when they haven't rezzed :)
[15:55]	Lex Neva:	This year.
[15:55]	Kippie Friedkin:	I find it slow most days
[15:56]	Aimee Trescothick:	navigating just using the minimap can be a fun challenge ^^
[15:56]	McCabe Maxsted:	I find the map is best used when trying to see how many avs are in a parcel, or quicly scan a few sims nearby; other than that exploring using it feels like a roulette game (which is adittanly fun, and I do use it for that)
[15:56]	Benjamin Linden closes the map before he brings the sim down
[15:56]	Kippie Friedkin:	I use it as a quick teleport to regions I use most frequently..I don't even bother waiting for the visuals to load.
[15:56]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe try dragging it
[15:56]	McCabe Maxsted:	with your sim stats open
[15:56]	McCabe Maxsted:	watch your fps drop every second you drag it
[15:56]	Aimee Trescothick:	though could do with being able to zoom in further for that
[15:56]	Benjamin Linden:	what about the stuff up top?
[15:56]	Benjamin Linden:	region/parcel info
[15:56]	Benjamin Linden:	time
[15:56]	Benjamin Linden:	linden balance
[15:57]	Benjamin Linden:	rip it all out?
[15:57]	Pier Jaecies:	options
[15:57]	Jacek Antonelli:	L$ balance is important generally. Maybe not to total newbies, since they haven't got any.
[15:57]	Jacek Antonelli:	Although... it doesn't necessarily have to be up on the top bar
[15:57]	Xenius Revere:	the time is nice in SLT as most folk dont enjoy doing extra math
[15:57]	Pier Jaecies:	most computers have the time already existing toolbars
[15:57]	Benjamin Linden:	but is it important all the time, or just when you need to shopt?
[15:57]	Lex Neva:	I gather that when you open the map window, your system makes tens of thousands of connections
[15:57]	Geneko Nemeth:	Some people don't work in Windowed mode.
[15:57]	Aimee Trescothick:	SL time without conversion is useful though
[15:58]	Jacek Antonelli:	Right, Ben. Probably not an all-the-time thing.
[15:58]	McCabe Maxsted:	I like having my linden balance always shown, personally
[15:58]	Jacek Antonelli:	Time is useful. Wish it had the date, though.
[15:58]	Geneko Nemeth:	Umm... no? The map is still fetched from the sim like any texture.
[15:58]	McCabe Maxsted:	it does
[15:58]	Aimee Trescothick:	your local clock is only useful if you're in the same timezone as LL
[15:58]	McCabe Maxsted:	mouseover it
[15:58]	Lex Neva:	Rip most of it out, Benjamin. Most of the menus, those tiny icons (make them more clear... perhaps a temporarily visible overlay with icons + text, as someone enters a new plot of land)
[15:58]	Aimee Trescothick:	hover
[15:58]	Squirrel Wood:	Lex, https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-8073
[15:58]	McCabe Maxsted:	I'd junk the search bar in the upper right
[15:58]	Benjamin Linden:	ok folks we're out of time, this has been great
[15:58]	Geneko Nemeth:	T_T
[15:59]	McCabe Maxsted:	very few people I think use it
[15:59]	Xenius Revere:	thanks for hearing us ramble
[15:59]	Squirrel Wood:	have a great afternoon all ^^
[15:59]	Benjamin Linden:	thanks for a useful discussion
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehe
[15:59]	Geneko Nemeth:	Hmm. One question.
[15:59]	Malbers Linden:	you guys give good ramble
[15:59]	McCabe Maxsted:	hahaha
[15:59]	Jacek Antonelli:	Take care all. I'll try to get here on time next week xD
[15:59]	Lex Neva:	whew
[15:59]	Geneko Nemeth:	i18n and l10n belong to SLDev, SLUx or both?
[15:59]	Aimee Trescothick:	hated the search box up there at first, but do use it now
[15:59]	Lex Neva:	This was fun :)
[15:59]	McCabe Maxsted:	always love this office hour :)
[15:59]	Benjamin Linden:	you could shoot it to both geneko
[15:59]	Aimee Trescothick:	now that I put the packet loss indicators back next to it :)
[15:59]	Benjamin Linden:	depending on the issue we'll sort it out
[16:00]	Geneko Nemeth:	:p
[16:00]	Benjamin Linden:	thanks all! see you next week!
[16:00]	Geneko Nemeth:	Seeya!
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli:	ciao Ben
[16:00]	Lex Neva:	Squirrel, right, I forgot it was you that said that, re VWR-8073
[16:00]	Kippie Friedkin:	Thanks Ben, cya!
[16:00]	McCabe Maxsted:	I wish the damn tooltips worked on the packet loss meters though
[16:00]	Pier Jaecies:	thank you, ben.
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli:	and Malbers
[16:00]	McCabe Maxsted:	those are really what made them so useful
[16:00]	McCabe Maxsted:	take care ben
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli:	I'm off. Take care, all!
[16:00]	Jacek Antonelli:	See you next week
[16:00]	Aimee Trescothick:	bye tc :)
[16:00]	McCabe Maxsted:	see ya jacek :)
[16:01]	Lex Neva:	You folks have a pretty tough job, Malbers :)
[16:01]	McCabe Maxsted:	what, dealing with us each week? They're crazy!
[16:01]	Harleen Gretzky:	So who won the contest?
[16:01]	Jacek Antonelli:	hehehe
[16:01]	Jacek Antonelli:	"Resident Experience? More like Resident Complainers!"
[16:01]	Aimee Trescothick:	LOL
[16:01]	Kippie Friedkin:	LOL
[16:01]	Aimee Trescothick:	resident bitchers LOL
[16:01]	Malbers Linden:	Harleen, Dusan announces that next week
[16:01]	Lex Neva grins
[16:02]	Malbers Linden:	Monday I think
[16:02]	Aimee Trescothick:	:)
[16:02]	Squirrel Wood:	At least we bother to give feedback :p
[16:02]	Geneko Nemeth:	Resident not-related-to-this-office-hours-topic
[16:02]	Harleen Gretzky:	ahh
[16:02]	Squirrel Wood:	The rest of SL has to live with what LL makes of it ^^
[16:02]	Lex Neva:	Seriously though, the UI _does_ need work... if I've been inworld for 3 years and still hate it, it means it's not just a matter of education ;)
[16:02]	Kippie Friedkin:	I'm looking forward to Dusan's announcement.
[16:02]	Lex Neva:	I still keep learning new things I didn't know.
[16:02]	Xenius Revere:	hehe, agreed
[16:02]	Kippie Friedkin:	I can't even imagine how the judges are going to decide on a winner. All the entries were great.
[16:03]	Squirrel Wood:	I assume the final result will be done through mixing and matching
[16:03]	Postit Morpork:	what sort of frame rates does everyone here get?
[16:03]	Lex Neva:	15 right now
[16:03]	McCabe Maxsted:	I average about 4
[16:03]	Jacek Antonelli:	Yeah, the contest results are monday during Metanomics
[16:03]	Squirrel Wood:	21 fps here... geforce gtx-280
[16:03]	Postit Morpork:	im gettin 3 right now but from a debug build
[16:03]	Aimee Trescothick:	that depends on an awful lot of factors
[16:03]	McCabe Maxsted:	in a crowd, 1-2
[16:03]	Aimee Trescothick:	4.8 right now
[16:03]	Kippie Friedkin:	I'm getting 45 fps right now
[16:03]	Squirrel Wood:	and yes, that is NVidias TOP of the top graphics card which is worth two cars and a mule
[16:03]	Postit Morpork:	lol
[16:03]	Lex Neva:	and is faster than all 3
[16:04]	Lex Neva:	put together
[16:04]	Xenius Revere:	wait what? gtx 280 and youre only getting 21 fps?
[16:04]	Postit Morpork:	45 kippie? you are fllyyying
[16:04]	Squirrel Wood:	ya. 21 fps
[16:04]	Jacek Antonelli:	"You're all winners to me! Therefore, the prize won't be distributed."
[16:04]	Kippie Friedkin:	My Mac rules
[16:04]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehehe
[16:04]	Xenius Revere:	im running a 8800gtx at 8xAA and 8xAF and getting 22.3
[16:04]	Kippie Friedkin:	LOL....Jacek
[16:04]	Aimee Trescothick:	what do you have Kippie?
[16:04]	Squirrel Wood:	with aniso on and 4x antialiasing
[16:04]	Kippie Friedkin:	Umm...lemme check the graphics card
[16:04]	McCabe Maxsted:	more like "the only fair thing is for me to keep the prize and spend it on shoes"
[16:04]	Jacek Antonelli:	hahaha
[16:04]	Postit Morpork:	i guess im the only one in here with an ati card
[16:04]	Aimee Trescothick promised herself a new Mac Pro if she gets round to finding a new jon :D
[16:04]	Squirrel Wood:	I do get double and tripple thr framerates I used to get with my old 7950GT in other games though
[16:04]	Xenius Revere:	poor you
[16:05]	Jacek Antonelli:	Okay, off I go. *poof*
[16:05]	Aimee Trescothick:	job even
[16:05]	Kippie Friedkin:	RadeonX1600
[16:05]	McCabe Maxsted:	*waves*
[16:05]	Aimee Trescothick:	dunno who jon is
[16:05]	McCabe Maxsted:	dang, she leaves smoke wherever she goes
[16:05]	Aimee Trescothick has a Macbook Pro with X1600
[16:05]	Aimee Trescothick:	you're getting 45fps on a Mac with an X1600???
[16:05]	Squirrel Wood:	I can definitely say that SLs graphics engine does NOT take advantage of all the nice features my gfx card has built in
[16:05]	McCabe Maxsted:	hehe
[16:06]	Kippie Friedkin:	Yeah..I'm slightly alarmed at that, trust me.
[16:06]	Geneko Nemeth:	It cannot do so at all.
[16:06]	Aimee Trescothick:	do you have all rendering turned off? LOL
[16:06]	McCabe Maxsted:	I love how linden devs STILL insist that the lowend WindLight¬Æ settings are the same as the old graphics engine
[16:06]	Aimee Trescothick:	been feeding it drugs?
[16:06]	Kippie Friedkin:	My graphics settings are on medium. So there's that...but this machine has been pretty sweet since I got. It's a work horse.
[16:07]	Malbers Linden:	bye all. as always, thanks for your time, brainpower, and incredibly fast IMing skills
[16:07]	Kippie Friedkin:	Bye Malbers!
[16:07]	Kippie Friedkin:	Take care!
[16:07]	Pier Jaecies:	bye!
[16:07]	McCabe Maxsted:	take care malbers :)