User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2010 04 23

Transcript

[15:50]	Xugu Madison:	hey Ardy!
[15:50]	Ashiri Sands:	hihi
[15:50]	Ardy Lay:	Hi
[15:50]	Xugu Madison:	hey Chaley, Ashiri. Anyone else going to appear from the rez-fog?
[15:51]	Ardy Lay:	Are you making fun of the new "Darn!" error?
[15:51]	Ashiri Sands:	yes
[15:51]	Chaley May:	hi :)
[15:51]	Xugu Madison:	So... we have a table with a pumpkin, a cat and a skunk. Did we fall into a dream somewhere?
[15:52]	Ashiri Sands:	I had to look twice when i got the error message =^_^=
[15:52]	Ardy Lay:	I saved a screenshot of it.
[15:52]	Ardy Lay:	Hi Chaley
[15:53]	Ashiri Sands:	I wanted to use the screenshot, but it didn't scale nicely
[15:57]	Xugu Madison:	hey Seb!
[15:57]	Ashiri Sands:	hi Sebastean
[15:57]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Hey there
[15:58]	Xugu Madison:	Oh. I made a free resizer HUD with the new functions in 1.38. Please encourage people to use, provide feedback: https://www.xstreetsl.com/modules.php?name=Marketplace&file=item&ItemID=2275909
[15:58]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I'll be right back, I'm going to grab something to eat.
[15:59]	Xugu Madison:	hey Andrew!
[15:59]	Andrew Linden:	Hello
[15:59]	Ashiri Sands:	As soon as my home had been changed to 1.38 I started modifying several of my scripts
[15:59]	Ashiri Sands:	hi Andrew
[16:00]	Ardy Lay:	Hi Andrew
[16:00]	Xugu Madison	's been updating on beta as he has time, but... ugh, very time limited
[16:00]	Andrew Linden:	Huh... objects rezzed in faster than usual today.
[16:00]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Back
[16:00]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Hey Andrew :)
[16:00]	Ardy Lay:	A http://www ... My issue got un-assigned. SVC-5598
[16:00]	Script Info	reporting on discontiguous parcels is not working as expected.
[16:00]	Script Info	reporting on discontiguous parcels is not working as expected.
[16:00]	Script Info	reporting on discontiguous parcels is not working as expected.
[16:01]	Latif Khalifa:	hello
[16:01]	Ardy Lay:	Hello
[16:01]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Hey morg, Latif
[16:02]	Latif Khalifa:	hey seb :)
[16:02]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hi Seb :-)
[16:02]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hi Andrew :-)
[16:02]	Morgaine Dinova	waves to everyone
[16:02]	Andrew Linden:	I'm very unmotivated today.
[16:02]	Andrew Linden:	I wasn't able to get much done.
[16:03]	Latif Khalifa	hopes everything is ok
[16:03]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	:(
[16:03]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Is there anything we can do to help?
[16:03]	Andrew Linden:	And by mid-afternoon I couldn't start on anything big -- not enough time in the remainder of the day.
[16:03]	Ashiri Sands:	Sound like a typical Friday?
[16:03]	Morgaine Dinova:	Me too. I've been playing Guild Wars in parallel with rebuilding a laptop ... satisfying to kill things. :PPP
[16:03]	Andrew Linden:	No, I'm just sayin'... it's one of those days when I can't get anything done.
[16:03]	Sebastean Steamweaver	has had days like that, himself.
[16:04]	Xugu Madison:	Andrew, can you slink out of work early?
[16:04]	Andrew Linden:	and as a related consequence, I don't have much news.
[16:04]	Latif Khalifa:	beer helps friday afternoons in such cases :)
[16:04]	Xugu Madison:	WAit, no, forget that. We need you still
[16:04]	Andrew Linden:	No I can't leave work early today. I have OH to attend ;-)
[16:04]	Xugu Madison	loses track of timezones, sorry
[16:04]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Hehe
[16:04]	Andrew Linden:	One of the downsides of scheduling OH for Friday afternoons ;-)
[16:04]	Latif Khalifa:	hehehe
[16:05]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	We'll try to make it as enjoyable as possible.
[16:05]	Latif Khalifa:	are you on pacific time? :)
[16:05]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, pacific.
[16:05]	Latif Khalifa:	well 4pm on friday is beer time :)
[16:05]	Xugu Madison:	I mentioned this earlier, but... free HUD resizer scripts, please distribute! https://www.xstreetsl.com/modules.php?name=Marketplace&file=item&ItemID=2275909
[16:05]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... where is Simon I wonder...
[16:05]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Ah, speaking of resizers, did you get my email Andrew?
[16:05]	Ashiri Sands:	gone to get beer?
[16:06]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, I got it Sebastean. That is good news that Babbage is coming over to our side on llSetObjectScale()
[16:07]	Andrew Linden:	I knew you could convince him.
[16:07]	Latif Khalifa:	here's Simon bringing beer to everyone :)
[16:07]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Heh, with a little help from my friends, as the song goes.
[16:07]	Andrew Linden:	I'll bet we still have beer in the company fridge...
[16:08]	Andrew Linden	goes to check. Brb.
[16:08]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Latif: not meant to downplay your HUD there, that's good work. It's just something I had wanted to bring up today.
[16:08]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Xugu*
[16:08]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Latif != Xugu
[16:08]	Xugu Madison:	No problem Seb, and I'll push an update out ASAP if we get llSetObjectScale :)
[16:09]	Latif Khalifa:	I'll gldadly take credit for Xugu's work :P
[16:09]	Arawn Spitteler:	I think there should be a straw, in the pot of Sukaru
[16:09]	Morgaine Dinova:	It's easy to lose sight of the forest because of the trees. Babbage just needed a little prodding.
[16:09]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I admit, I never expected a "Yes, definitely" out of Babbage, but it made me happy.
[16:10]	Arawn Spitteler:	drink
[16:10]	Andrew Linden:	Nope. All gone. Just as well.
[16:10]	Xugu Madison:	I think Babbage is beginning to feel a little more comfortable with the OH group, which is good!
[16:10]	Arawn Spitteler:	This is awful, but so is the real stuff
[16:11]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	A bowl of meade?
[16:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	Mmmm, meade
[16:11]	Ardy Lay:	Anybody have any candidates for "Most amusing current software defect in SL?"
[16:11]	Morgaine Dinova:	Fax me a bottle :P
[16:11]	Andrew Linden:	What's this? Magical bowl of beer with particl system pipe?
[16:11]	Arawn Spitteler:	Sumerian Warm Brew, according to the hymn of Ninkasi
[16:11]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Ardy, yes.
[16:11]	Ardy Lay:	Give us JIRA links!
[16:11]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	An animation that will corrupt whatever you are wearing on your head.
[16:11]	Latif Khalifa:	Ardy, does viewer2 sound amusing? :P
[16:11]	Ardy Lay:	Lets try to have a little fun with it. :-)
[16:12]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Actually, let me get it.
[16:12]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I have to relog to fix it :P
[16:12]	Arawn Spitteler:	You can't drink warm brew, without a straw, so one pot makes a good social event. Still popular in Africa
[16:12]	Ardy Lay:	I started with SVC-5598 but it's not very funny.
[16:13]	Ardy Lay:	So I will follow it with VWR-18648.
[16:13]	View frustum	on World Map rotates about a location that is NOT the current agent location unless the map view origin is at 0, 0.
[16:13]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	All right, ready?
[16:13]	View frustum	on World Map rotates about a location that is NOT the current agent location unless the map view origin is at 0, 0.
[16:13]	View frustum	on World Map rotates about a location that is NOT the current agent location unless the map view origin is at 0, 0.
[16:13]	Arawn Spitteler:	SVC-93 still a candidate? Can ianyone imagine, a developer dthat doesn't understand simple matrix algebra?
[16:13]	ROTATION and	llSetRot incorrectly implemented for child prims
[16:13]	ROTATION and	llSetRot incorrectly implemented for child prims
[16:13]	ROTATION and	llSetRot incorrectly implemented for child prims
[16:13]	Ardy Lay:	Sebastean, could you remove the depicate helper please?
[16:13]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	If anyone would like a copy of the animation, let me know.
[16:13]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Oh, is that me?
[16:13]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Left hip, yes it is.
[16:13]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Sorry > <
[16:14]	Morgaine Dinova:	Nice updraft, Seb :-)
[16:14]	Chaley May:	i would like a copy :)
[16:14]	Ashiri Sands:	curious effect
[16:14]	Arawn Spitteler:	Map View Frustrum?
[16:14]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I'm not sure how they made an animation do this, but I believe Rex has done something similar.
[16:14]	Andrew Linden:	SVC-93 is up there, definitely.
[16:15]	Ardy Lay:	Hehe, Sebas, you have hit on a math error of some sort?
[16:15]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I didn't create the animation, but I'm wondering if it's related to deformations somehow.
[16:15]	Arawn Spitteler	isn't sure anyone actually understands Linear Algebra, but has had several classes in the nonsensical rules that it follows.
[16:15]	Ashiri Sands:	looks like a deformation
[16:15]	Sebastean Steamweaver	gave you Friendly Hug (Corrupts Head Attachment).
[16:15]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Very strange, that it can actually affect the shape of the attachment.
[16:16]	Ardy Lay:	Yes, looks like data is getting where it should not.
[16:16]	Andrew Linden:	Does that bug also work for viewer-1.23?
[16:16]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Hehe, Chaley
[16:16]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Yes Andrew
[16:16]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I'm using 2.0 though.
[16:16]	Xugu Madison:	I think some people understand linear algebra, but no-one understands them....
[16:16]	Chaley May:	this style is not bad
[16:17]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	It's very...
[16:17]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Interesting!
[16:17]	Xugu Madison:	You scare me
[16:17]	Andrew Linden:	Sebastean, you have a jira number for that one?
[16:17]	Ardy Lay:	Hehe!
[16:17]	Ashiri Sands:	wonder if moving the head joint to "outer space" and back again would do that?
[16:18]	Andrew Linden:	You should give an affected object to one of the viewer developers.
[16:18]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I don't, no, but I figured someone had. The animation has apparently been around for a while.
[16:18]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I can go ahead and create one easily enough.
[16:18]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	But I don't have this animation in bvh form, as I didn't create it.
[16:18]	Ashiri Sands:	but i found that i couldn't upload deformations in viewer 2
[16:19]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Heh
[16:19]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I'll be right back, I need to relog to fix it apparently.
[16:19]	Andrew Linden:	You don't have to give it actually. If you just tell someone the name of the item in your inventory they should be able to look it up.
[16:19]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	All righty
[16:20]	Sebastean Steamweaver	has his hair back again.
[16:21]	Ashiri Sands:	=^_^=
[16:21]	Arawn Spitteler	poits to the right of Simon: Is the empty seat the last to rez for others?
[16:21]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Andrew, there was a topic I wanted to bring up.
[16:21]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	It concerns megaprims and encroachment.
[16:21]	Andrew Linden:	Go ahead Sebastean.
[16:22]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Do you know how, basically, that would be implemented?
[16:22]	Andrew Linden:	Yes.
[16:22]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Rather, the tools to deal with encroachment.
[16:22]	Latif Khalifa:	I accidentaly teleprted when playing with xugu's hud (double click tp can be pain :P)
[16:22]	Ardy Lay:	People seem to be reporting the return of this issue: VWR-248
[16:22]	Inexplicable folding	of Avatars such that they are walking around with their heads up their arses
[16:22]	Andrew Linden:	Here's the current plan for prim-encroachment:
[16:22]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Ardy: that happens in RL too.
[16:22]	Arawn Spitteler:	Is that a viewer or server side animation?
[16:22]	Ardy Lay:	Hehe
[16:23]	Morgaine Dinova:	Latif: I was wondering if we couldn't use doubleclick-middle instead, to avoid that.
[16:23]	Arawn Spitteler:	I know, with attachment heads, that's a matter that the arse is the center of bounding box
[16:23]	Andrew Linden:	(1) Land owners will be able to manually return objects that are overlapping their parcels, by selecting them and clicking [Return to Sender].
[16:24]	Andrew Linden:	(2) No automatic encroachment return to start with, but maybe it will eventually be added.
[16:24]	Andrew Linden:	(There is a bunch of issues to be worked out before we make it automatic.)
[16:24]	Jonathan Yap:	Andrew, is one of those issues to do with items on public/linden land / rights-of-way?
[16:24]	Latif Khalifa:	i think most parcel owners will be fin with manual return
[16:24]	Andrew Linden:	(3) The feature will probably be enabled on a per-region or per-estate basis. There are some regions that are using prim encroachment as a feature.
[16:24]	Sebastean Steamweaver	nods, "Do you know how it would be done on a technical level, how the viewer/server test to see if the person actually can return the object/if it's encroaching?"
[16:25]	Andrew Linden:	Sure...
[16:25]	Tegg Bode:	Manual would probably cover most cases except where some was using scripts to grief by regenerating the offending prims
[16:25]	Andrew Linden:	There are two main problems on the technical level -- encroachment detection server side and detection viewer side
[16:25]	Latif Khalifa:	i can see one big problem implementing it, server has no clue about llTargetOmega in non-physical mode
[16:26]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Latif, I think cases like that are likely just going to need abuse reports, if they can't sort it out with the object's owner.
[16:26]	Latif Khalifa:	but that's an edge case
[16:26]	Andrew Linden:	Server side we would give the parcel a momentary physics shape in the physics engine and do a collision check between it and the object in question. Nice and fast.
[16:26]	Arawn Spitteler:	As Jethro tol' Moses, "Have'em ticket what gets complicated.
[16:27]	Andrew Linden:	Thare are some things to work out here... encroachment over region boundaries and sculpty prims need work. The other stuff is aleady implemented.
[16:27]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	The server-side is what I was thinking about.
[16:27]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	There's been talk of implementing surrogant physics models for linksets in the future. If that gets implemented, and the physics model is much smaller than a megaprim in the ilnkset, would that cause the server to be fooled?
[16:28]	Arawn Spitteler:	Across region boundaries, it's only the appearence that encroaches. But Encroaching Phantoms could also annoy, I guess.
[16:28]	Andrew Linden:	Viewer side is harder... we'll either have to wait to add physics collisions to the viewer, or more likely just do a less accurate box-vs-parcel check -- which would determine when to enable the [Return to Owner] button.
[16:28]	Latif Khalifa:	Andrew, what's the thinking on max prim dimensions in megaprim liberation project?
[16:28]	Andrew Linden:	Well, we're planning on eventually adding collision across region boundaries (for static objects first).
[16:29]	Andrew Linden:	So that might go out simultaneously with prim-encrochment.
[16:29]	Andrew Linden:	None of that work is done, but it needs to be worked on sooon.
[16:29]	Arawn Spitteler:	Collision across region boundaries, might help with fall through
[16:29]	Andrew Linden:	Latif, sometime after prim-encroachment is solved I would expect we would liberate megaprims. There is a bunch of design to be done there.
[16:30]	Latif Khalifa:	it would be nice if colission with static objects worked cross region, no more tricks when building bridges
[16:30]	Andrew Linden:	But my current thoughts would be to allow people to build as big as they liked... as long as it fits on their parcel.
[16:30]	Latif Khalifa:	Andrew, I'm just curious what's the thinking on the new max size, once the problems are solved
[16:30]	Andrew Linden:	Or, as long as it fits on parcels on which they are allowed to build.
[16:31]	Andrew Linden:	That would be the max size Latif -- it has to fit inside where you can build. (That's my thinking anyway. I'm sure others will be involved in the design there.)
[16:31]	Latif Khalifa:	hm, sounds a bit problematic :)
[16:31]	Latif Khalifa:	since that depends on the rotation
[16:31]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I think the second option is probably better, as it allows for more flexibility, especially if it's a mutual consent for building and others are ok with the prim going over the parcel, or the person owns all parcels in question.
[16:31]	Latif Khalifa:	you can build in Z all you want
[16:32]	Tegg Bode:	I would assume 256x256x256 as a max size
[16:32]	Latif Khalifa:	also I presume there will be fail-to-rez on enroach
[16:32]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Tegg: I've kind of assumed that myself.
[16:32]	Latif Khalifa:	which is als a bit problematic because of rotation
[16:32]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I still kind of fall back to the idea that megaprims are more a social problem than anything else, and people have been dealing with that problem just fine with the megaprims they have now, the ability to create them wouldn't make it much different.
[16:33]	Latif Khalifa:	I agree Seb
[16:33]	Tegg Bode:	True but a 10m can be problematic due to rotation too if it's near the edge
[16:33]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	With the ability to return encroaching prims, it just gets that much easier.
[16:33]	Morgaine Dinova:	I think it's a mistake to focus on any prim types before doing hierarchical objects. The reason is that they will introduce their own issues of encroachment, owing to the hierarchical assemblies being potentially extended in space. Might as well tackle it just once, not for each prim type separately.
[16:34]	Andrew Linden:	Morgaine, what do you mean by different "types"?
[16:34]	Tegg Bode:	At least with a 256m limit you can only inroach surrounding sims rather than 50 sim radus
[16:34]	Latif Khalifa:	Tegg, nobody can see prim 50 sims away :P
[16:34]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Unless you're in the sim that's 50 sims away, hehe
[16:34]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: focussing on encroachment by individual prims, as opposed to encroachment by the composite assembly.
[16:35]	Tegg Bode:	well then there's no point being allowed to buil prims 50 sims in size then
[16:35]	Andrew Linden:	Oh, the encroachment would be per object -- so the whole linked set would be returned.
[16:35]	Andrew Linden:	SL can't return partial parts of objects.
[16:35]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	when it's behaving at least, hehe.
[16:35]	Latif Khalifa:	haha
[16:35]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... I just had an idea.
[16:36]	Latif Khalifa:	i always forget stick's sim name
[16:36]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Aggro
[16:36]	Morgaine Dinova:	Won't scale. A composite objects could contain thousands of primitives, you'll rapidly hit the brick wall trying each component for encroachment.
[16:36]	Andrew Linden:	It may eventually be possible to make sub-parts of an object non-collidable.
[16:36]	Arawn Spitteler:	Some sort of prim encroachment warning, for creators, and for scripts that reconfigure.
[16:36]	Jonathan Yap:	I love how Aggro uses megaprims to make distant scenery
[16:36]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Andrew, did you see my comment earlier?
[16:37]	Latif Khalifa:	Aggro, most excellent example of 1024x1024x1024 prim legit usage... it's trully awesome, go there set draw distance to 512 and enjoy
[16:37]	Tegg Bode:	yep a warning would be nice I guess have the outline flash or something
[16:37]	Andrew Linden:	What if encroachment rules could allow overlapping objects to just sorta "vanish" their parts over the border.
[16:37]	Ardy Lay:	Aggro looks horrible on the world map.
[16:37]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	[16:27] Sebastean Steamweaver: The server-side is what I was thinking about. [16:27] Sebastean Steamweaver: There's been talk of implementing surrogant physics models for linksets in the future. If that gets implemented, and the physics model is much smaller than a megaprim in the ilnkset, would that cause the server to be fooled?
[16:37]	Morgaine Dinova:	Aggro's requirement should be supported with a proper skybox at infinity, not just through megaprim edge textures.
[16:37]	Andrew Linden:	The hard part would be the UI that would indicate what was happening to the object... lots of possiblility for confusion.
[16:38]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Morgain: not entirely. Aggro's scenery is built into the land, it isn't just a skybox effect.
[16:38]	Morgaine Dinova:	Every parcel really ought to be able to make the world outside of its space look as it desires.
[16:38]	Latif Khalifa:	Morgaine, it doesn't use it only for skybox infinity
[16:38]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	They have actual mountains surrounding the sim, using sculpts
[16:39]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Surrounding/built into
[16:39]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Andrew: you mean as an option, to not allow an offending object to be rendered on the parcel?
[16:40]	Tegg Bode:	Personally while I'm for megaprim liberation, I don't see it being fun having a noobs being able to create a crap load256m physical spheres and in a sandbox, maybe raise the limt to 20m instead of 10m for a bit, at the moment you at least have to get to the level of finding out about megaprims to use them
[16:40]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah. If you put a house halfway over your neighbor's parcel... what it it sorta vanished at the border.
[16:40]	Morgaine Dinova:	I guess mere "skybox" doesn't convey the requirement then. "Ability to define arbitray scenegraph outside your parcel, when viewed only from within your parcel".
[16:40]	Morgaine Dinova:	arbitrary*
[16:40]	Latif Khalifa:	I really don't think it should be that compliated: just allow parcel owners to manually return object that enroach their parcel, nothing else
[16:41]	Xugu Madison:	also, how's that whole non-256x256 sim thing coming? *duck*
[16:41]	Andrew Linden:	It could stick over, but that part of the house wouldn't be collidable, nor visible from outside the parcel on which it belongs.
[16:41]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Tegg: I think probably an advanced menu option to disable the 10m limit would be sufficient to keep noobs from creating big prims right off the bat.
[16:41]	Latif Khalifa:	Seb++
[16:41]	Andrew Linden:	Just thinking out loud... sounds hard to implement. How would the system know which parcel something belongs?
[16:41]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Andrew: it might be a bit of an issue if you can see into your neighbor's house.
[16:41]	Morgaine Dinova:	That was the poor sod owning a 512m^2 plot would not be at the mercy of the commercial mall set up next door.
[16:41]	Andrew Linden:	It would require hints from the parcel owners.
[16:41]	Tegg Bode:	Yep hat would be good
[16:41]	Morgaine Dinova:	Thay way*
[16:41]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Not that there's much privacy anyway lol
[16:41]	Arawn Spitteler:	Only create megaprims, with Advanced Menu active?
[16:42]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Arawn, something like that. Much like you have the option to disable the camera distance limit.
[16:42]	Arawn Spitteler:	Disable Prim Limits, as an advanced option?
[16:42]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Yeah, essentially.
[16:43]	Andrew Linden:	Xugu we aren't working on non-256x256 regions. But I was thinking about how to do it the other day.
[16:43]	Ardy Lay:	Andrew, you mention a region or estate setting to limit encroachment controls, how about a parcel setting for maximum prim volume or dimension?
[16:43]	Andrew Linden:	A small team could probably do it in a year ;-)
[16:43]	Latif Khalifa:	hehe
[16:43]	Xugu Madison:	Andrew, I didn't think it was particularly hard apart from detangling the server?
[16:43]	Latif Khalifa:	arbitrary size regions, or 256 multiples?
[16:43]	Tegg Bode:	From what I've sn of the few uses of megaprims over 256m the same efects could be gotten using multiple 256m prims other than sheres I guess
[16:43]	Morgaine Dinova:	Creating the private scenegraph "beyond your parcel" would still use your parcel's prim allocation of course. It would be merely a viewer effect to see a private scenegraph beyond your parcel.
[16:43]	Andrew Linden:	Ardy, a per-parcel size limit might be useful...
[16:44]	Andrew Linden:	If we ever liberate linkability then perhaps linkability rules could be per-parcel.
[16:44]	Andrew Linden:	Some content could be created in one place that is just not supported in another.
[16:45]	Tegg Bode:	maybe we should leave the regions the same size and just scale all the avatars and prim down to 1/4 size ㋡
[16:45]	Andrew Linden:	I just wonder if per-parcel size limits would be used if we had prim encroachment rules fully implemented.
[16:45]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: that's coming with VWRAP anyway. The world provider has no say on what the region supports.
[16:45]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Tegg: terrain resolution?
[16:45]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, good point Morgaine. It is inevitable.
[16:45]	Ardy Lay:	Andrew, private sandboxes and rental properties would use them.
[16:46]	Latif Khalifa:	Andrew, I don't like per parcel size limits, I should be able to rez 2x2x40 antenna tower on 32x32 parcel, no
[16:46]	Arawn Spitteler:	I recall a racetrack, that scaled down the avatars.
[16:46]	Andrew Linden:	Latif, as long as it fits on the parcel then it would be allowed (in my design).
[16:46]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I tend to agree with Latif. I think size limits are a can of worms waiting to be opened. I'd be happy with prim encroachment controls.
[16:46]	Ardy Lay:	Latif, size limit is set by parcel OWNER.
[16:46]	Arawn Spitteler	wonders why Latif would want to rez an antanna on someone else's parcel
[16:46]	Andrew Linden:	So a 40m antenna would bit on a 32x32 parcel, as long as it was oriented up, or went diagnona.
[16:47]	Latif Khalifa:	but "fit" depends on rotation, Z (up) is not limited
[16:47]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	If a rental sim owner finds someone offending their size limits, they can boot them or return the prims.
[16:47]	Latif Khalifa:	what happens if the antena was in horizontal position when derezzed?
[16:47]	Andrew Linden:	Right, and a sim owner might find several exceptions they would want to make to a simple size limit.
[16:47]	Ardy Lay:	Latif, enforcement could be delayed.
[16:48]	Andrew Linden:	It might be best to just give them manual control over what content is keeper.
[16:48]	Tegg Bode:	the limits need only be in x&y I assume but I don't think a 20x20x64532m prim would be good to allow either
[16:48]	Arawn Spitteler:	32X32X65535
[16:48]	Latif Khalifa:	Andrew, that's my thinking KISS: allow parcel owners to return enroaching objects and be done with it :)
[16:48]	Andrew Linden:	Sigh... someone is eventually going to ask for a "Move this object off my land by such-and-such a date or it will be automatically returned." notice.
[16:49]	Tegg Bode:	I always forget the binary numbers that big ㋡
[16:49]	Chaley May:	i just get the bounding box to find out if the object fits inside an area
[16:49]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I'd say just enable manual returns, and let people deal with it as they have been doing for ages.
[16:49]	Latif Khalifa:	Seb+1 my thinking exactly
[16:49]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	The only thing that changes, is that now they don't have to wait for an abuse-report response.
[16:49]	Arawn Spitteler:	Just multiply 2X2, about sixteen times over
[16:50]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	That in itself, would be something people would be very grateful for.
[16:50]	Tegg Bode:	Yep would be a good start withj advanced menu option check box for building prims over 10m up to 256m in size maybe 1024m, a free for all building 65546m prims would create issues
[16:51]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Tegg: I would be fine with 256-1024 as a limit. I can see uses in builds for a few things inthat size range, including megabuilds.
[16:51]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	There are some builds that are very extensive vertically in a sim.
[16:51]	Jonathan Yap:	Some alternate viewers do not have a building limit, or if they do it is > 10m
[16:52]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Jonathan: there is a server-side check now, which disables prims being created above 10m
[16:52]	Tegg Bode:	Alternate viewer users probably aren't going to be noobs though ㋡
[16:53]	Ardy Lay:	Andrew, don't let requests of comlicated yet marginally useful features delay the simple and very useful features. :-)
[16:53]	Latif Khalifa:	Ardy++
[16:53]	Arawn Spitteler:	Like SVC-22
[16:53]	Vehicles crossing	region borders aren't always treated as vehicles and can get incorrectly returned if the destination parcel is no-entry or parcel-full
[16:53]	Xugu Madison:	I'm going to have to sleep, sorry. Night all!
[16:53]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Tkae care Xugu
[16:53]	Jonathan Yap:	We all appreciate the hard work you are putting in Andrew
[16:53]	Morgaine Dinova:	Cyu Xu
[16:53]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Take*
[16:53]	Ashiri Sands:	tc Xugu
[16:53]	Andrew Linden:	All this talk about prim-encroachment is mostly just me thinking about it. There hasn't been much collaboration with the various "product managers" here at LL. So maybe it will happen differently.
[16:53]	Tegg Bode:	Yeah automatic return would be more trouble and probably lag adding than it would be worth
[16:53]	Latif Khalifa:	night Xugu
[16:54]	Andrew Linden:	However, I suspect it will eventually be done in a very similar way to some of the ideas we've kicked around in these office hours.
[16:54]	Arawn Spitteler:	A__Ho__ Lines should be visible on Minimap; is that strictly client side?
[16:54]	Latif Khalifa:	i'm scared of linden "product managers" lol
[16:54]	Andrew Linden:	I think the megaprim issue is rearing its ugly head with the mesh project... some people in LL want to support big messhes.
[16:54]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Latif, you and I both, hehe.
[16:55]	Arawn Spitteler:	They don't really exist, but as virtual accounts to take the blame
[16:55]	Ardy Lay:	The manual return ability will almost certainly reduce the volume of Abuse Reports for encroachment.
[16:55]	Ashiri Sands:	Manual return will be great
[16:55]	Andrew Linden:	So I think prim-encroachment, and megaprim issues to fall under some general scrutiny here at LL by people who haven't yet thought too hard about them.
[16:55]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Well, right now, there are a few different ways of dealing with it: Contacting the person, and then abuse reporting (presumably if the first doesn't work).
[16:56]	Arawn Spitteler:	Parcel Owners often do't realise they left A__H__ lines on, even when their parcels encroach on Linden Roads.
[16:56]	Tegg Bode:	I'd still tend to contact the person first anyway before manuall sending back their item
[16:56]	Ardy Lay:	Yes, manual return is to replace AR, not asking kindly for cooperation.
[16:56]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Same here Tegg :P
[16:57]	Morgaine Dinova:	+1 on putting encroachment issues entirely in the hands of residents. The ONLY server-side support needed is a computation to determine whether an arbitrary resident has the right to return it, ie. a basic encroachment check.
[16:57]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Andrew, just out of curiosity, what has prevented Megaprims from being liberated before now?
[16:57]	Latif Khalifa:	havok1
[16:57]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	H1 has been out for ages now, though.
[16:57]	Andrew Linden:	Sebastean, too much work to do on other stuff -- it hasn't been prioritized.
[16:57]	Ardy Lay:	I suspect support statistics are involved too.
[16:57]	Latif Khalifa:	seb, well after H1, nobody put megaprim liberation on teh agenda :)
[16:58]	Tegg Bode:	What are A__H--- lines?
[16:58]	Andrew Linden:	I've been intending on trying to get it done on the side
[16:58]	Arawn Spitteler:	Access Lines, pronounced Ass Hole
[16:58]	Andrew Linden:	but as you know, I'm kinda bad at doing things on the side... just no time.
[16:58]	Sebastean Steamweaver	remembers the tremendous uproar when LL closed down the second megaprim loophole. It was almost as large as the openspace sim fiasco.
[16:59]	Tegg Bode:	Maybe it should be done gradually, wasn't the miit always 20m?
[16:59]	Tegg Bode:	㋡
[16:59]	Latif Khalifa:	andrew, go have a beer :)
[16:59]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	No worries Andrew, we understand how busy you are ;)
[16:59]	Latif Khalifa:	we bothered you enough for today :)
[16:59]	Andrew Linden:	Good idea. I think I'll leave early today.
[17:00]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Basically, we come to you for information, and consolation.
[17:00]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	You're a good linden to talk to.
[17:00]	Arawn Spitteler:	Get the apprentices to do the work, and teach them to keep it maintainable.
[17:00]	Tegg Bode:	Too late to leave early now ㋡
[17:00]	Latif Khalifa:	if 5pm friday is "early", wow
[17:00]	Jonathan Yap:	Does LL have an internship program?
[17:00]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Your office hours are always like brainstorming sessions, and personally I really enjoy that.
[17:00]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, now it's too late. I was thinking about leaving at 4:59.
[17:01]	Ashiri Sands:	=^_^=
[17:01]	Morgaine Dinova:	Hehe
[17:01]	Latif Khalifa:	hahaha
[17:01]	Simon Linden:	yes, there is an internship program, Jonathan
[17:01]	Arawn Spitteler:	Teach your wife the Hymn to Ninkasi
[17:01]	Andrew Linden:	Alright. Everyone have a good weekend.
[17:01]	Latif Khalifa:	have a nice one Andrew :)
[17:01]	Jonathan Yap:	Good afternoon Andrew
[17:01]	Ashiri Sands:	Thank You Andrew
[17:01]	Tegg Bode:	Cya mate
[17:01]	Simon Linden:	Thanks everyone for coming ... see you next time
[17:01]	Latif Khalifa:	take care Simon
[17:01]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Take care Andrew
[17:01]	Latif Khalifa:	see you guys :)
[17:01]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Thank you also Simon
[17:02]	Ashiri Sands:	tc Simon

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