User:Zero Linden/Office Hours/2008 Jan 10

Transcript of Zero Linden's office hours:

[8:36]	Harleen Gretzky:	He is typically late to his OH
[8:37]	Rex Cronon:	also, there is only one transcript for the whole month of december:(
[8:37]	Leffard Lassard:	=
[8:37]	Zha Ewry:	Ah.
[8:37]	Zha Ewry:	Zero's on
[8:37]	Arawn Spitteler:	Ask/Nag when he shows
[8:37]	Zha Ewry:	And there he is!
[8:37]	Harleen Gretzky:	Hi Zero :)
[8:38]	Arawn Spitteler:	All welcomes Zero
[8:38]	Rex Cronon:	he is close, and i think he can hear
[8:38]	AC:	Hi Zero !
[8:38]	Zha Ewry:	Morning Zero
[8:38]	Zero Linden:	Gooooood morning all
[8:38]	Rex Cronon:	hello zero
[8:38]	Dr Scofield:	hi all
[8:38]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[8:38]	Tao Takashi:	Good morning, Zero
[8:38]	Arawn Spitteler wonders if Vineland is using Havoc 4, and if Zero is the person Zarf would want to ask about strange phenomena.
[8:40]	Rex Cronon:	zero, is there an ATA for the transcripts, for december, and the one from tuesday?
[8:40]	Wyn Galbraith:	Morning all.
[8:40]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[8:40]	AC:	hello Wyn
[8:40]	Zero Linden:	Vineland is not using Havoc 4 as far as I (or Zarf) knows
[8:40]	Zero Linden:	Rex... ETA?
[8:40]	Rex Cronon:	eta*
[8:41]	Rex Cronon:	sorry, seems like my fingers are a little slow today
[8:41]	Zha Ewry:	Zero.. As I cover my white board with grids about trusted/untrusted sim/server relationships, do you want to consdier
[8:41]	Arawn Spitteler:	Passive but Physical Object went off world, there.
[8:41]	Zha Ewry:	agent domains seperate from regionas, or assume they come a a pair?
[8:41]	Dr Scofield:	zha, why would they become a pair?
[8:42]	Zha Ewry:	For simplicity
[8:42]	Zha Ewry:	But. I assume they won't.
[8:42]	Zha Ewry:	Just makes more cases
[8:42]	Zha Ewry:	Raises questions like "Do we hand off agents from agent DomainX, to agent domainY"
[8:42]	Zero Linden:	Well, Tree K. was putting up the transcripts for me ---
[8:42]	Tao Takashi:	what does "hand off" mean?
[8:42]	Arawn Spitteler wonders why replacement of one object would stop the Grid: The Grid is supposed to have some parrallel to The Internet, but the Internet was designed to recover ffrom a nuclear war.
[8:42]	Zero Linden:	I have the raw transcript for Dec., but (alas) without time stamps.... I'll put them up today
[8:43]	Zero Linden:	Zha - I've always assumed that they don't
[8:43]	Zero Linden:	come as pairs
[8:43]	Tao Takashi:	I did put one up I had for Novermber I think
[8:43]	Zha Ewry nods
[8:43]	Zha Ewry:	Okies
[8:43]	Zha Ewry:	I'll do the full messy case then ;-)
[8:43]	Zha Ewry mourns the last four sqaure inches of her whiteboard
[8:43]	Tao Takashi:	I think we need the full messy case ;-)
[8:43]	Zero Linden:	I don't like the idea of enforcing that every AV should need an identity-fragment on an Agent Domain associated with a Region Domain that they want to visit
[8:44]	Zha Ewry:	Nor do I.
[8:44]	Zero Linden:	smacks too much of to sliding in to the current situation on the internet today
[8:44]	Zha Ewry:	Just makes the picture a it middier
[8:44]	Zha Ewry:	*muddier
[8:44]	Dr Scofield:	eeek
[8:44]	Zha Ewry:	I'm about 1/3 of the way from having a usefuil layout of the basic problems
[8:44]	Zha Ewry:	So.. we can talk about what trust relationships we need in all the cases.
[8:44]	Wyn Galbraith thinks Tree has been busy days as she is.
[8:44]	Tao Takashi:	I was trying to mention virtual worlds in the dataportability.org group btw ;-) so they think a bit further then just personal data but also content
[8:45]	Zha Ewry:	Also raises some interesting questoins about what ahppens if we move scripts to agent domains
[8:45]	Zero Linden:	I think, long term, that is inevitable
[8:45]	Zha Ewry nods
[8:45]	Zha Ewry:	I agree
[8:45]	Zha Ewry:	Which.. means we'll dcoument some fun things
[8:45]	Zero Linden:	It is sort of like the inevitability of scripted IRC/Chat clients.....
[8:45]	Tao Takashi:	you mean running scripts on agent domains and just getting object updates etc. from the region domain?
[8:45]	Zero Linden:	at some point you are going to want to automate the way your avatar does some things....
[8:46]	Tao Takashi:	or are we talking about the client?
[8:46]	Zha Ewry:	Region sims allowing aves in, are gong to have to also allow the agent domain to see some tihings for the scripts, in a sesnible way
[8:46]	Zero Linden:	And again, I fear for the complexity, but I think that running attachment scripts in the AD will be a big win for usability
[8:46]	Dr Scofield:	zero, why not do it via the client?
[8:46]	Zha Ewry:	I tend to agree zero
[8:46]	Dr Scofield:	for automation
[8:46]	Zha Ewry:	And.. Actually, I think the complexity isn't that bad, because you shed a lot of complexity on the sim side
[8:47]	Tao Takashi:	and won't scripts in AD add a lot more of network traffic?
[8:47]	Zero Linden:	What advantage to on the client? Then your ability to do things depends you being on the right machine with teh right files?
[8:47]	Zha Ewry:	You get much smoother handling of the hand offs
[8:47]	Zero Linden:	or do we serve the scripts to the client?
[8:47]	Zero Linden:	it does remove the one thing safe from poaching: scripts - since they are never sent to the client now
[8:47]	Dr Scofield:	you could do that
[8:48]	Tao Takashi:	I think we need both.. some client specific scripting and some server side. They might serve different purposes
[8:48]	Rex Cronon:	the code, or the precompiled bytes?
[8:48]	Dr Scofield:	i was thinking about autmating your avatar
[8:48]	Dr Scofield:	not shipping the scripts for in-world objects, sorry
[8:48]	Zero Linden:	Well - I suppose if the RD grants capabilities to the AD for passing events and commands from attachement scripts, then the
[8:49]	Zero Linden:	AD could pass that capability on to the viewer along with the script and let the viewer run it....
[8:49]	Tao Takashi:	like clientside scripts might be like Firefox extensions
[8:49]	Dr Scofield:	didn't mean to confuse
[8:49]	Tao Takashi:	e.g. add IRC support as an example
[8:49]	Tao Takashi:	but that's different from scripted attachments
[8:49]	Zero Linden:	there is the issue of persisting the state of the script... especially when the connection between viewer and AD gets severed (say if the viewer crashes..... whcih I realize is a (cough)common(cough) event)
[8:49]	Zha Ewry nods
[8:50]	Zha Ewry:	I think, in time, we'll have automatoin in both places
[8:50]	Zha Ewry:	We *can't* stop client side automaion
[8:50]	Dr Scofield:	yes...my comment related to automation of avatar via cleint
[8:50]	Arawn Spitteler doesn't know AD from Client, but thinks straight Java could be used for Client Scripting.
[8:50]	Zha Ewry:	But.. we'll want AD automatoin
[8:50]	Zero Linden:	Sigh - probably - and probably in a multitude of languages and lib frameworks....
[8:50]	Dr Scofield:	not in-world objects/attachments
[8:50]	Zero Linden:	(AD = Agent Domain)
[8:51]	Tao Takashi:	I would hope for it not being just Java ;-)
[8:51]	Tao Takashi:	but anyway
[8:51]	Dr Scofield:	;-)
[8:51]	Zha Ewry:	OK. So I'll try to habe a first draft tabele and summary in the wiki for Tuesday
[8:51]	Kurt Stringer:	so there would be different scripts for prims and avatars?
[8:51]	Zha Ewry:	*have even
[8:51]	Kurt Stringer:	agent vs region?
[8:51]	Arawn Spitteler:	Scale of Skill, Java for those expanding from Server Side LSL, and better for those who can actually program
[8:51]	Zero Linden:	Don't know...
[8:52]	Rex Cronon:	the problem will be than if the owner of the script trusts the creator
[8:52]	Tao Takashi:	so if scripts are run on he agent domain, what would actually needed to be transferred? I guess scanner commands and such are simply sent to the region and some result comes back then
[8:52]	Dr Scofield:	zero, could we discuss the secondlife:///app/login issue a bit? as neas pointed out on sldev this is the first cse where we actually run into issue re grid interop
[8:52]	Zha Ewry:	The sense informaoin is the obvious big one
[8:52]	Tao Takashi:	I can program but it's not better for me ;-)
[8:52]	Tao Takashi:	but that's a discussion for later anyway
[8:52]	Kri Ayakashi:	I believe that it won't be long before we'll see some custom clients with client side scripting... I'm actually suprised there aren't any out there yet
[8:52]	Tao Takashi:	so what else do attachments actually do?
[8:52]	Zha Ewry:	And.. this does, I think, imply, that scripts will be in at least two places
[8:53]	Tao Takashi:	HTTP probably but there it doesn't matter from where it gets triggered
[8:53]	Rex Cronon:	and java code can be decompiled quite easy, so can the creator trust the user?
[8:53]	Zha Ewry:	Because, you'll have scripts in rezzed objects, whichh don't belong to agents
[8:53]	Zero Linden:	hmmmm...... I was just thinking of generalizing the script interface so that one could have a script proxy on the sim for each attachemetn script (since they need to sense and interact with the sim environment)
[8:53]	Zha Ewry:	So.. one imagines those get to run out of the agent domain
[8:53]	Zero Linden:	but have all the events and calls proxyed to/from the script running on the Agent Domain (or Viwer)
[8:53]	Zero Linden:	this should be a generalized facilty
[8:53]	Zha Ewry:	(On the regions, or sepersate, doesn't much matter)
[8:53]	Zha Ewry:	and.. Yes.
[8:54]	Zha Ewry:	Because, if we decouple fully, we get ncier scaling
[8:54]	Tao Takashi:	would a region then have a general e.g. sense API which I eventually can use completely free (without a script in an attachment)?
[8:54]	Zero Linden:	it would allow you sell objects that had scripts where you didn't want the script to be out... and were willing to provide the compute power to run it
[8:54]	Zero Linden:	hmmmmmmm.
[8:54]	Zero Linden:	I'll talk to Babbage about this
[8:54]	Tao Takashi:	this would mean sensors without actual objects around
[8:54]	Saijanai Kuhn exepcts to be reading a lot to catch up
[8:54]	Zha Ewry:	Erk.
[8:55]	Zha Ewry:	Interesting thing. The prims in the attachments are still goign to be on the region for people to see
[8:55]	Zha Ewry:	HUD ones, no
[8:55]	Zha Ewry:	HUD ones, are hidden
[8:55]	Zha Ewry:	But.. the prims rez in the regoin, don't they?
[8:55]	Tao Takashi:	well, do we need attachments then for these scripts if they don't show anything? ;-)
[8:55]	Tao Takashi:	like twitterbox
[8:55]	Zero Linden:	Tao - it might be a reasonable construction to enforce that anything that senses must be a script in an object (allows it to be governed by parcel controls, for example)
[8:55]	Tao Takashi:	well, it shows something but it wouldn't need to
[8:56]	Zha Ewry:	HUD attaches get interesting
[8:56]	Tao Takashi:	I am just thinking loud not necessarily saying that it's a good idea
[8:56]	Tao Takashi:	it might save prim count though
[8:56]	Zero Linden:	but it could be that a kind of script is just a generic proxy connection that sends events via HTTP and gets functions to invoke from HTTP
[8:56]	Zha Ewry likes the thinking out loud
[8:56]	Dr Scofield:	HUd attaches would be a good cse for AD
[8:56]	Saijanai Kuhn:	so the case of attachments that are no permissions, but have scripts, will be handled differently than attachments WITH scripts...
[8:56]	Saijanai Kuhn:	than attachments WITHOUT* scripts
[8:56]	Zha Ewry scribbles on her white board
[8:56]	Tao Takashi:	so what else do attachments do? maybe rez something out of their inventory
[8:57]	Neas Bade:	if the scripts were not too latency sensitive, it would be nice to allow the HTTP connections to be fully outside of grid
[8:57]	Zha Ewry:	Animations
[8:57]	Zha Ewry:	xmlrpc
[8:57]	Zha Ewry:	(tho, we hoope that goes away)
[8:57]	Zha Ewry:	chat
[8:57]	Tao Takashi:	so why not simply serve attachments from the AD, too?
[8:57]	Rex Cronon:	push
[8:57]	Zero Linden:	Neas - absolutely
[8:57]	Tao Takashi:	or are we saying this already? :)
[8:57]	Kri Ayakashi:	while on topic of transfer protocols wouldn't it be better to use something like XMPP instead of HTTP for this?
[8:57]	Zero Linden:	Tao - I think we are saying this
[8:57]	Tao Takashi:	ok
[8:57]	Neas Bade:	Kri, why XMPP?
[8:58]	Zero Linden:	ditto?
[8:58]	Kri Ayakashi:	for one latency and amount of data sent is smaller
[8:58]	Kri Ayakashi:	it's a two-way protocol
[8:58]	Wyn Galbraith's work has switched to days so she has to go to work now.
[8:58]	Neas Bade:	kri, you've been using bad http servers then :)
[8:58]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Later Wyn
[8:58]	Wyn Galbraith:	B-bye!!! :D
[8:58]	Zha Ewry:	By Wynn
[8:58]	Rex Cronon:	bye wyn
[8:58]	Dr Scofield:	XMPP let's you deal better with async events
[8:59]	Neas Bade:	getting low http latency and good http scalability is a pretty well understood solved problem
[8:59]	Zero Linden:	Kri - it is true that XMPP is symetric, which is nice, but I don't think it's overhead is that much less than HTTP
[8:59]	Zha Ewry:	OH! Before I foget, Zero, you might want to update your "hours" sign on the easel there.
[8:59]	Neas Bade:	xmpp has some "fun" scaling issues that aren't all that well understood
[8:59]	Neas Bade:	if you look at the xmpp spec, the overhead really is more
[8:59]	Dr Scofield:	you only have to establish the connection once
[8:59]	Zero Linden:	My biggest concern with XMPP is that it doesn't really have the wide tool support
[8:59]	Dr Scofield:	then it's just XML messages
[8:59]	Zha Ewry:	you'd have to do HTTP, I think
[8:59]	Zha Ewry:	Becuase that's what eveything talks
[9:00]	Neas Bade:	dr scofield, connection overhead shouldn't be that big a deal
[9:00]	Zero Linden:	Well, the TCP handshake packets are a fart-in-a-whirlwind compared to the headers etc....
[9:00]	Zha Ewry and the acres of angle brackets
[9:00]	Zero Linden:	XMPP doesn't play well with most XML tools (as it sends fragments of XML documents)
[9:00]	Neas Bade:	you can use keep alive and pipelining if you really think that it is causing issues
[9:00]	Zha Ewry worries about the world wide angle bracket supply
[9:00]	Dr Scofield:	once you go for encrypted connection setup becomes expensive
[9:00]	Neas Bade:	yeh, HTTP is simple and nice
[9:00]	Zero Linden:	And there are many frameworks for serving XMPP
[9:01]	Zero Linden:	The big plus for me is the symetric connection no matter which way established
[9:01]	Saijanai Kuhn notes that the avatar domain attachements thing seems to have died. Too many variables, not enough info?
[9:01]	Tao Takashi:	XMPP gets mentioned more and more it seems
[9:01]	Tao Takashi:	on the DiSo project they want to use that for contact detail updates
[9:01]	Zha Ewry:	Neas, am I right in recalling there has been some discussion in OpenSim land, about breaking scripting out into seperate spaces?
[9:01]	Zero Linden:	however, we've been doing some reasonable things with HTTP using the long poll technique
[9:01]	Neas Bade:	Tao, but typically not by folks that actually have had to implement an XMPP server :)
[9:02]	Kri Ayakashi:	you mean comet?
[9:02]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Zero if you mean EventQueueGet, that's only "reasonable" if you're sure what is going on
[9:02]	Tao Takashi:	Neas: They are actually implementing something for Wordpress right now
[9:02]	Tao Takashi:	but I don't know the details
[9:02]	Zero Linden:	sorry to open a fresh wound....
[9:02]	Dr Scofield:	neas, there are some decent XMPP servers around
[9:03]	Neas Bade:	we did that discussion in OpenSim land regarding region comms a few months ago, and a bunch of folks from Intel with significant XMPP experience said "you really don't want to go there. Beyond a certain scaling factor things fall over, and no one has really sovled them yet"
[9:03]	Tao Takashi:	well, comet also seems to grow slowly
[9:03]	Neas Bade:	there is a reason that HTTP is used everywhere at this point, it is really well proven for all kinds of tasks
[9:03]	Dr Scofield:	google seems to have
[9:03]	Tao Takashi:	Neas: is this readable under some URL? :)
[9:03]	Neas Bade:	check out the opensim-dev mailing list archives
[9:04]	Tao Takashi:	thanks, will do
[9:04]	Neas Bade:	http://opensimulator.org - follow links
[9:04]	Neas Bade:	it would have been Octoberish IIRC
[9:04]	Dr Scofield:	neas, that's just taking the "i've got a big hammer...and, oh, look, lots of nails here" approach
[9:04]	Neas Bade:	Dr Scofield, perhaps, but you can't underestimate the power of using technologies people already know
[9:05]	Zha Ewry shrugs
[9:05]	Zha Ewry:	"Big swiss army knife,"
[9:05]	Neas Bade:	you want to bring in developers to interlock with these bits
[9:05]	Neas Bade:	and there are at least 100x more people that know HTTP than XMPP
[9:05]	Saijanai Kuhn:	properly designed, this stuff should be changeable down the road, if need be...
[9:06]	Saijanai Kuhn:	without HUGE hassles, even
[9:06]	Kri Ayakashi:	that's true but I dont think it's a good argument why to use something or why not to use something
[9:06]	Zero Linden:	Well, I'm equally concerned about things like - HTTP's failure modes are well understood - what happens when an XMPP connection drops?
[9:06]	Neas Bade:	yep
[9:06]	Dr Scofield:	true, i'm just concerned that we use HTTP for purposes it was never intended for
[9:06]	Zero Linden:	Caching is possible in HTTP, but not XMPP
[9:06]	Tao Takashi:	Well, I think I'd like HTTP more for that everybody knows it
[9:06]	Neas Bade:	HTTP was intended for reading physics papers
[9:07]	Dr Scofield:	pull
[9:07]	Neas Bade:	so we all use HTTP for things it was never intended for :)
[9:07]	Tao Takashi:	when I heard about XMPP I tried to read up upon it but stopped soon again as it seems a bit too read
[9:07]	Dr Scofield:	but not push
[9:07]	Zha Ewry shrugs "90% of the HTTP uses theseb days are well beyond Mosaic"
[9:07]	Tao Takashi:	well, it depends on how many people will do these things with it and servers/clients will simply evolve
[9:07]	Dr Scofield:	ok, i'll shut up XMPP wise
[9:08]	Zha Ewry:	Zero.. how many singletones are there in SL at this point, which won't surivive wihout pluatlity in an open Gridded environment?
[9:08]	Zero Linden:	So - this has been tackled several times in HTTP: ModPubSub comes to mind and Rohit Khare's thesis ARREST - which is his pub/sub extention to REST
[9:08]	Zero Linden:	Hmmm... F-Sharp above middle C?
[9:08]	Neas Bade adds to his reading list
[9:09]	Tao Takashi:	sooo, if the attachments are on the AD, how would they be rendered on the client?
[9:09]	Dr Scofield:	secondlife:///app/login?
[9:09]	Tao Takashi:	the client directly gets them from the AD? or via the RD?
[9:09]	Neas Bade:	yeh, the uri discussion is something I obviously have great interest in :)
[9:10]	Zero Linden:	Tao - good question... don't know
[9:10]	Zero Linden:	Dr - what are you asking?
[9:10]	Neas Bade:	Zero, have you kept up on the sldev thread regarding secondlife:// uris?
[9:10]	Zero Linden:	Zha - wouldn't it be easier to ask it the other way round?
[9:10]	Tao Takashi:	of we assume bad RDs then AD => client would probably be better
[9:10]	Dr Scofield:	the loginpage/web auth currently does not really return any information about the grid to connect to
[9:10]	Zero Linden:	Neas - no
[9:10]	Neas Bade:	it started from a discussion with Tess yesterday that Dr Scofield summarized
[9:10]	Tao Takashi:	the client will get these things anyway
[9:10]	Zha Ewry:	LOL
[9:11]	Zha Ewry:	Possibly
[9:11]	Tao Takashi:	and what about bad ADs? :)
[9:11]	Zero Linden:	"Yo - I'm one baaad AD, ya hear?!"
[9:11]	Saijanai Kuhn:	AD...?
[9:11]	Zero Linden:	Agent Domain
[9:11]	Tao Takashi:	I am not sure running scripts on ADs will solve the problem ;-)
[9:11]	Tao Takashi:	if it's not the AD the script creator choose to trust
[9:11]	Dr Scofield:	you can tell the latest clients to go your own loginpage, but all you can do in that is return the secondlife:/// URI
[9:12]	Dr Scofield:	we discussed with tess how we could add the grid information
[9:12]	Tao Takashi:	I wonder why the grid information cannot be simply in some config file on the FS
[9:12]	Neas Bade:	right, the issue is that secondlife:/// uri like things have implicit hostname
[9:12]	Dr Scofield:	(a) use a parameter like grid=.....
[9:12]	Saijanai Kuhn:	Was that after the Groupies meeting, or another talk?
[9:12]	Tao Takashi:	but then again I think I am not too much into the details of that problem
[9:13]	Neas Bade:	and we really need that to be an explicit hostname to make it work well with multiple grids
[9:13]	Saijanai Kuhn:	and did it get posted to the wiki?
[9:13]	Dr Scofield:	(b) use a proper URI: secondlife://grid.com/app/login?...
[9:13]	Harleen Gretzky thought Tess was looking into adding -loginuri
[9:13]	Dr Scofield:	saijanai: i posted the chat log to the wiki
[9:13]	Saijanai Kuhn:	great
[9:13]	Zero Linden:	ah- is the concern over the integration of the correct URI syntax (secondlife:///) with the previous, tehcnically non-compliant (second://RegionFoo)
[9:13]	Dr Scofield:	and the summary to sldev
[9:13]	Zero Linden:	?
[9:13]	Dr Scofield:	yes!
[9:13]	Neas Bade:	right, and more importantly getting to a point where
[9:13]	Dr Scofield:	secondlife:/// it turns out addresses the client
[9:14]	Neas Bade:	secondlife://osgrid.org/region/Wright%20Plaza/10/10/20 is a legitimate URI
[9:14]	Saijanai Kuhn:	https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AWGroupies-2008-01-08
[9:14]	Zero Linden:	okay - so, since I'm the RFC-weenie inside LL that insisted on that third slash
[9:14]	Zero Linden:	let me explain
[9:14]	Dr Scofield:	whereas secondlife://region/X/Y/Z addresses a location in the grid
[9:14]	Dr Scofield:	and neas example makes a lot of sense
[9:14]	Zero Linden:	So - we've GOT an exsiting, ill-formed, non-compliant scheme
[9:14]	Neas Bade:	because SLURLs should really identify a unique network resource
[9:15]	Zero Linden:	secondlife://Grasmere/123/345
[9:15]	Zero Linden:	is Legal
[9:15]	Zero Linden:	really
[9:15]	Dr Scofield:	agree on that one, zero :-)
[9:15]	Zero Linden:	because the URI syntax requires that if your scheme starts with two slashes
[9:16]	Neas Bade:	yep, it's not that it isn't legal
[9:16]	Zero Linden:	THEN, the first segment MUST have the syntax for domain names
[9:16]	Neas Bade:	it's that by not including explicit hostname, there is an implied grid name
[9:16]	Neas Bade:	and to make all things equal, we should be explicit about the gridname
[9:16]	Zero Linden:	Well, the old syntax is what it is.... I can't fix that
[9:17]	Neas Bade:	right, but we could adjust over time
[9:17]	Neas Bade:	my last post to sldev gave a set of steps that could get you there
[9:17]	Zero Linden:	but let's make one thing clear, even if you put a host name there - nothing in the URI spec says that that has to be the host name you contact
[9:17]	Chosen Raymaker:	or introduce a new scheme name
[9:17]	Zha Ewry:	There is a fair question, about whether we can fix it now, so we don't have to revisit it in six to twelev months
[9:17]	Neas Bade:	correct
[9:17]	Zero Linden:	so -
[9:17]	Saijanai Kuhn:	or rather, so we might not have to revisit it...
[9:18]	Zero Linden:	secondlife: scheme is NOT intended to be the URLs of locations in world
[9:18]	Zero Linden:	really- that would be a poor choice
[9:18]	Neas Bade:	but, by making secondlife:// URIs act more like http:// URIs, it makes life a lot easier
[9:18]	Saijanai Kuhn:	the best laid plans of avatars...
[9:18]	Zero Linden:	I say, just use an HTTP name
[9:18]	Zero Linden:	http://slurl.com/secondlife/Grasmere/178/113/27
[9:18]	Zero Linden:	that is the URL of this location
[9:19]	Neas Bade:	ok, so where can I type that into the location browser in my SL client?
[9:20]	Zero Linden:	secondlife: is a scheme for invoking one's client to do something
[9:20]	Neas Bade:	I understand that is the way it is today
[9:20]	Zero Linden:	Neas - you can't 'cause our viewer has no address bar!
[9:20]	Neas Bade:	but it seems like it wouldn't be much to work to make secondlife:// uris actually be network resources in a sensible way
[9:21]	Saijanai Kuhn:	well, the map *could* be, but you'd need to have it parse and resolve slurls
[9:21]	Zero Linden:	It seems like an indirection that is generally uneeded
[9:21]	Zero Linden:	for example
[9:21]	Neas Bade:	and I really think that until that is make explicitly so, there is going to continue to be assumptions made in the client that don't work for alternate grids
[9:21]	Zero Linden:	let's take secondlife:///app/profile/Zero/Linden
[9:21]	Neas Bade:	it's social engineering as much as anything else
[9:22]	Zero Linden:	should that be *the* name of the resource that is my profile?
[9:22]	Zero Linden:	seems far less useful than
[9:22]	Neas Bade:	but your profile is only valid in the context of a specific grid
[9:22]	Zero Linden:	http://grid.secondlife.com/agents/Zero/Linden/profile
[9:23]	Zero Linden:	Ah - I see what you are driving out
[9:23]	Neas Bade:	ok, then get rid of secondilfe:// entirely, and just use http
[9:23]	Zero Linden:	driving at
[9:23]	Saijanai Kuhn:	actually with universal avatars...
[9:23]	Zha Ewry listens closely
[9:23]	Zero Linden:	right - only the only way to get interaction between a web browser and a more complex UI (say, a viewer app) is this goofy scheme HACK
[9:23]	Neas Bade:	right
[9:23]	Harleen Gretzky:	Your profile is actually: secondlife:///app/agent/2e3e325b-2887-4a3c-aceb-c94227019b22/about already
[9:24]	Neas Bade:	and my point has been that instead of just doing the minimum for the hack using secondlife://, make the secondlife URIs explicitly contain grid infomation in them
[9:24]	Neas Bade:	which then makes the ideas of navigation between grids, and refernce points of the secondlife urls very explicity
[9:25]	Saijanai Kuhn:	/grid-"Second Life"
[9:25]	Saijanai Kuhn:	=*
[9:25]	Zha Ewry:	And.. sets us up nicely for the future
[9:25]	Neas Bade:	and starts to form a model where the secondlife scheme looks a lot more like www
[9:25]	Neas Bade:	zha: exactly
[9:25]	Neas Bade:	stop thinking of secondilfe:// as a hack to trick the client to do something, and think of those URIs as actual network resources that the client is asked to load
[9:26]	Zero Linden:	Neas - that then brings up the issue of "what identifies a grid"?
[9:26]	Zero Linden:	which domani name?
[9:26]	Zero Linden:	do we need to make the Agent Domain / Region Domain distinction now?
[9:26]	Saijanai Kuhn would like to see a UUID for each grid but
[9:26]	Neas Bade:	hostname:port of the login server would be a reasonable starting place
[9:26]	Neas Bade:	as that is going to be the entry point
[9:26]	Zha Ewry:	As its an overlay construct over the www name space
[9:27]	Zero Linden:	hmmm... but then, here's the problem with that
[9:27]	Zero Linden:	if you use the login server and port
[9:27]	Zha Ewry would hate to see it nind all thwe way to a single domain name
[9:27]	Tao Takashi:	btw, those profiles should contain microformats :)
[9:27]	Zero Linden:	BUT, that isn't the actual place the viwer goes to get the info it needs
[9:27]	Zero Linden:	THEN there is some form of transformation that the viewer needs to do to get to the right place
[9:27]	Neas Bade:	right, but google.com is 100k machines
[9:27]	Tao Takashi:	but then again there is not too much to markup with microformats anyway
[9:28]	Neas Bade:	but you can have a single name that gets you to 100k machines, and the http spreader figures out where you really go
[9:28]	Zero Linden:	well, that isn't quite the same, Neas
[9:28]	Kri Ayakashi:	btw, will SL follow login ideas like OpenID? meaning having an account on one grid lets you in to other grids ?
[9:28]	Chosen Raymaker:	Zero: An unrelated question before you close? Can you tell us why groups are limited at 25? If it is to limit server load, what traffic exactly is significant in this connection?
[9:28]	Zha Ewry:	In the one case, it's a http endpoint, in this case, we're nming an ovrlay
[9:28]	Zero Linden:	when you go to google.com - routers , level 2 swithces, and load balancers pick one of those 100k machines
[9:29]	Zero Linden:	but they are all equiavelent
[9:29]	Zero Linden:	for whatever you ask of google.com
[9:29]	Nika Talaj:	? is a grid a service or a server
[9:29]	Neas Bade:	mail.google.com is pretty stateful
[9:29]	Neas Bade:	and that is a lot of machines
[9:29]	Zero Linden:	right - and they have load balancers that deal with that
[9:29]	Zero Linden:	BUT this is different
[9:29]	Zero Linden:	well
[9:29]	Zero Linden:	may be not
[9:29]	Neas Bade:	right, but those aren't l2 balancers
[9:30]	Zero Linden:	but what I'm saying is that if you see a resource identified by //google.com/ - you ask your question by connecting to google.com
[9:30]	Neas Bade:	to get mail.google.com working right, you are balancing much higher up, giving all the stateful ajax
[9:30]	Neas Bade:	docs.google.com is even more so the case, where your live editting is updated every 10 seconds
[9:30]	Zero Linden:	if you see something like secondlife://login.agni.lindenlab.com:443/app/profile/2e3e325b-2887-4a3c-aceb-c94227019b22/about
[9:30]	Zha Ewry:	def not l2 balances, no
[9:31]	Neas Bade:	anyway, the point is that having a name for a grid being a hostname shouldn't be a big deal
[9:31]	Zero Linden:	you need to connect to login.agni.lindenlab.com:443 to get the asnwer
[9:31]	Zero Linden:	and - it turns out, that that machine can't answer that question
[9:31]	Neas Bade:	then that URI shouldn't be returned
[9:31]	Neas Bade:	or if it is, we have 30x codes to bounce to the right location
[9:31]	Zero Linden:	Right now, the secondlife:/// scheme is intended to control the viewer, by asking it to do things with respect to the grid it is connected to now
[9:31]	Kri Ayakashi:	well it could use some rewrite rules based on the URL provided to bounce the request to other machine
[9:31]	Zero Linden:	The only excpetion is secondlife:///app/login
[9:31]	Neas Bade:	right, I do undestand what is is today
[9:31]	Zero Linden:	which needs to say which grid
[9:32]	Zero Linden:	I think you are absolutely right about how such things need to work in the future
[9:32]	Neas Bade:	but I really really really think that keeping with that design point is so fundamentally limitting that it has to change in the future
[9:32]	Neas Bade:	and the sooner the better
[9:32]	Neas Bade:	as it is a very clear early interop issue between multiple grids
[9:32]	Zero Linden:	I just think we should assume that there will be a new scheme than secondlife:///
[9:33]	Zero Linden:	well all
[9:33]	Zero Linden:	I'm now late for my next meeting
[9:33]	Zero Linden:	good stuff here
[9:33]	Kri Ayakashi:	well the old scheme could implictly assume linden grid as the default for some time to give everyone some space to adapt to new scheme
[9:33]	Neas Bade:	thanks zero, great talking with you :)
[9:33]	Zero Linden:	I guess I'll put this up in the wiki
[9:33]	Rex Cronon:	bye zero
[9:33]	Zero Linden:	thanks for coming
[9:33]	Zero Linden:	great discussions - all of 'em!
[9:33]	Tao Takashi:	thanks for hosting!
[9:33]	Zero Linden:	bye
[9:33]	Tao Takashi:	cya!
[9:33]	Zha Ewry:	Thanks zeor, lets docu ment that its choing to change, then
[9:33]	Kri Ayakashi:	bye Zero