User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2008 09 11

Transcript of Andrew Linden's office hours:

[17:04]	Sindy Tsure:	there would be riots if they weren't..
[17:04]	Ellla McMahon:	yes true Sindy
[17:04]	Sindy Tsure:	look out! he's got crayons!
[17:04]	Sindy Tsure:	hi andrew
[17:05]	Andrew Linden:	hello
[17:05]	Marianne McCann:	Hi Andrew!
[17:05]	Ellla McMahon:	hello Andrew :)
[17:05]	Andrew Linden:	unfortunately this chair disables my crayon gun
[17:05]	Marianne McCann:	Nice crayons
[17:05]	Arawn Spitteler knows enough to sit down, when Andrew's playing with crayons: Have you seen my one prim steam punk vehicle?
[17:05]	Marianne McCann:	Crayon gun? Oh my
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	No I haven't seen the one-prim steam punk vehicle
[17:06]	Arawn Spitteler:	These seats are designed to preduce too rigid a perspective
[17:06]	Andrew Linden:	is it a fancy sculpty?
[17:06]	Arawn Spitteler:	It's best known, for getting out of hand, and bouncing off walls.
[17:07]	Sindy Tsure has many scripts like that
[17:07]	Sindy Tsure:	er.. witness that falling hand, for example
[17:07]	Marianne McCann grins
[17:07]	Arawn Spitteler:	It's inventor isn't even searchable, in SL, but it's been on the market since 1879
[17:07]	Sindy Tsure:	that's a long time!
[17:07]	Arawn Spitteler:	It's a bar of ivory soap
[17:07]	Arawn Spitteler:	In SL, it's a vehicle
[17:08]	Sindy Tsure:	like.. step on it and go flying??
[17:08]	Andrew Linden:	ok Arawn, do you want to demonstrate the one-prim steam punk vehicle?
[17:08]	Arawn Spitteler:	Sliding, but it floats on water
[17:08]	Sindy Tsure:	lol
[17:08]	Sindy Tsure:	need a banana peel, too
[17:09]	Orion Shamroy:	Wow, that's almost scary... lol :)
[17:09]	Sindy Tsure wonders how long it goes before wearing too thin
[17:09]	Andrew Linden:	the particles need to NOT be object relative
[17:09]	Sindy Tsure:	yep.. they shouldn't follow you
[17:10]	Andrew Linden:	ok Arwan, so that vehicle is bugged somehow?
[17:10]	Arawn Spitteler:	Naw, just fun.
[17:10]	Marianne McCann:	So what's up lately, Andrew?
[17:10]	Andrew Linden:	rezz it again so I can examine it. Is the rez date really bugged?
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	ok so news...
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	I think there is an update 1.24.5 or 1.25.6, not sure of the number right now, but I think they are going to try to deploy it soon
[17:11]	Andrew Linden:	1.24.5-Server, that is
[17:12]	Andrew Linden:	actually ,I think it is already deployed experimentally to some 500 regions or less
[17:12]	Andrew Linden:	Tomorrow is the code freeze for 1.25-Server
[17:13]	Andrew Linden:	There has been a team working on server bugs... mostly Mono bugs, but a few other misc problems
[17:13]	Andrew Linden:	Dunno what all has been fixed, but I'm not even sure their fixes will get into 1.25-Server
[17:13]	Andrew Linden:	I think code freeze means only that which has passed QA
[17:14]	Andrew Linden:	anyway, bugs that I was talking about weeks ago that were done but couldn't get into 1.24-Server... they will all be in 1.25-Server
[17:14]	Andrew Linden:	(they passed QA and I was able to merge them back into the main codebase more than a week ago, I think)
[17:14]	Sindy Tsure:	does that include the camera going nuts or is that already in?
[17:14]	Sindy Tsure saw that again this week..
[17:14]	Andrew Linden:	Yes Sindy, that one is fixed.
[17:14]	Marianne McCann:	Likewise, Sindy
[17:15]	Andrew Linden:	Er.. that one is definitely in 1.25-Server
[17:15]	Sindy Tsure:	i'll check for again sunday..
[17:15]	Arawn Spitteler wonders if that's why Spirit City wwent down, during scripting class:I've a wall about my sandbox, so the camera bug would be ince to fix
[17:15]	Neener Keats:	Hee!
[17:15]	Sindy Tsure:	heya
[17:16]	Arawn Spitteler:	Hi, Neener
[17:16]	Andrew Linden:	Uh... 1.25-Server won't be deployed until... dunno, another week or two at least. I was just saying that code-freeze for it is tomorrow
[17:16]	Andrew Linden:	It still needs some final QA pass
[17:16]	Andrew Linden:	Meanwhile... I was able to finish and test a 64bit simulator this week.
[17:17]	Sindy Tsure:	(latest from prospero: http://status.secondlifegrid.net/2008/09/11/post240/)
[17:17]	Sindy Tsure:	oh? how's it work?
[17:17]	Andrew Linden:	I'm now just fixing up the code so that it will build on whatever platform any of the other developers happen to be using.
[17:17]	Sindy Tsure:	so now we can fly up to 4 billion meters, right? :)
[17:17]	Andrew Linden:	It works fine. I didn't have time to actually stress test it, or test any performance comparisons.
[17:17]	Neener Keats:	nice!
[17:18]	Sindy Tsure:	er.. 4b is 32-bits.. never mind..
[17:18]	Andrew Linden:	However, I'm hoping some other developers (the sim performance team, for example) will be able to take some benchmarks.
[17:18]	Neener Keats:	objects are still limited to 4k, even with rezzing?
[17:18]	Andrew Linden:	4k what?
[17:18]	Sindy Tsure was totally joking, neener.. ignore me
[17:18]	Neener Keats:	meters
[17:18]	Arawn Spitteler:	4098, is my understanding
[17:18]	Andrew Linden:	Oh right, 4k meters of altitude. yes
[17:18]	Neener Keats:	I don't know. I used to fly that high *curses a griefer*
[17:18]	Neener Keats laughs
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	The 64bit doesn't actually change anything... it just allows us to go forward on a 64bit operating system
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	which allows the server memory to extend beyon 4GB
[17:19]	Andrew Linden:	and also, there is tha theoretical gain in performance across the board on 64bit. How much exactly is not known.
[17:20]	Andrew Linden:	but it is small... probably about 5% or something
[17:20]	Sindy Tsure:	dunno if it still applies but i did a 16 to 32-bit port ages ago.. the big killer on performance was actually things not aligned on 32-bit boundaries
[17:20]	Arawn Spitteler:	16 Quintillion Bytes addressable? I wonder how long that'll be enough
[17:20]	Andrew Linden:	I was hoping to get back onto bug fixing as soon as I'm done with this 64bit stuff
[17:21]	Sindy Tsure:	should hold us over for a bit arawn!
[17:21]	Andrew Linden:	the project was supposed to take about a week... it ended up taking 3
[17:21]	Neener Keats hopes SL will behave well on her 64 bits XP
[17:21]	Andrew Linden:	however, anyone who has to rebuild all of our 3rd party libs again will have an easier time than I did
[17:21]	Sindy Tsure:	they're already running 64-bit debian, i think.. it's just the sim that runs in 32-bit mod
[17:21]	Sindy Tsure:	e
[17:21]	Andrew Linden:	I made build scripts as I went
[17:21]	Andrew Linden:	ok, that is all the news I've got
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	I had to talk about 64bit... because that is what I've been frantically doing for so long
[17:22]	Sindy Tsure:	that's pretty good for 3 weeks, andrew!
[17:22]	Marianne McCann:	I'm curious, what will this do as far as mac support, anything?
[17:22]	Andrew Linden:	actually, I think we have all the libs we need to actually run simulators on Mac
[17:22]	Marianne McCann:	(Sorry, dumb question, bu I'm curious0
[17:23]	Sindy Tsure:	do you mean the mac viewer, marianne?
[17:23]	Andrew Linden:	however... by "mac support" ... yeah do you mean mac viewer?
[17:23]	Marianne McCann:	Well, if it would affect that, an ya, you answered with at libraries
[17:24]	Sindy Tsure:	he's just doing the server part - shouldn't impact any viewers, i think
[17:24]	Andrew Linden:	We want to be able to support the servers on Mac only so that any LL developers who want to make Mac their platform of choice for development can do so and only have a single computer
[17:24]	Andrew Linden:	rather than needing a Mac and Linux machine
[17:24]	Marianne McCann nods
[17:24]	Neener Keats:	very nice
[17:24]	Orion Shamroy:	Well, there's always a dual boot if all else fails... :)
[17:25]	Arawn Spitteler:	You're talking about running sims on local hardware?
[17:25]	Marianne McCann:	that was what I was wondering... excellent
[17:25]	Andrew Linden:	indeed, my Mac laptop is triple booted
[17:25]	Andrew Linden:	but I only use it in Linux mode
[17:25]	Andrew Linden:	er... Ubuntu mode specifically
[17:25]	Sindy Tsure:	can you tell us, ballpark, how big the server sources are?
[17:25]	Orion Shamroy:	Sounds like my PC. :)
[17:25]	Andrew Linden:	you mean how many lines of code?
[17:26]	Sindy Tsure guesses it's noway near is big as the viewer
[17:26]	Sindy Tsure:	yep
[17:26]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... people have counted them in the past, but I can't remember the numbers.
[17:26]	Sindy Tsure:	just curious..
[17:26]	Andrew Linden:	Tell you what, I'll try to count them now and maybe have an answer before the end
[17:26]	Orion Shamroy:	Well, my guess if its anything like opensim it should be pretty light weight...
[17:27]	Sindy Tsure:	oh.. i was just curious, andrew! no worries if you don't know off the top of your head
[17:27]	Sindy Tsure:	i hope he's not counting by hand! :)
[17:27]	Andrew Linden:	The simulator appears to be about 200k lines, not counting included 3rd party libs and header, nor our own libs
[17:28]	Sindy Tsure:	fairly big but not ginormous..
[17:28]	Sindy Tsure again says 3 weeks is pretty good for a port to 64-bit!
[17:28]	Neener Keats:	indianess issues
[17:29]	Sindy Tsure:	i don't think they're changing to different indians! :)
[17:29]	Andrew Linden:	The 64bit issues weren't as difficult as I expected. The recompiling of about 25 different 3rd party libs was the hard part.
[17:30]	Andrew Linden:	But only because no one had ever written scripts to do it... so it all had to be done by hand
[17:30]	Sindy Tsure:	ick
[17:30]	Andrew Linden:	Open directory, read instructions, follow instructions, figure out where instructions were wrong... and so on
[17:31]	Andrew Linden:	Yesterday was interesting. I had several impromptu meetings with other LL developers asking about insight for potential projects.
[17:31]	Andrew Linden:	There are a bunch of interesting projects that might get started soon.
[17:32]	Andrew Linden:	Unfortunately I can't really talk about them :-(
[17:32]	Marianne McCann:	Anything you can share?
[17:32]	Marianne McCann:	Aww...
[17:32]	Marianne McCann:	Teaser
[17:32]	Andrew Linden:	All I can do is say "I know something you don't know"
[17:32]	Arawn Spitteler:	Any word on C#?
[17:32]	Andrew Linden:	C# as a programming language for scripted objects?
[17:32]	Arawn Spitteler:	I think so. I don't know much about it myself
[17:33]	Andrew Linden:	Babbage Linden has expressed his intent on making a new script language interface, and C# is his first choice, I think.
[17:33]	Sindy Tsure:	maybe just a hint, andrew?
[17:33]	Andrew Linden:	However, he is currently working on Mono maintenance.
[17:33]	Andrew Linden:	So I don't know when he'd start on it.
[17:34]	Andrew Linden:	He holds office hours, and would probably be willing to talk about his plans
[17:34]	Andrew Linden:	I think maybe he holds his hours in voice, so there might not be any transcripts of old hours online
[17:34]	Andrew Linden:	(which reminds me... I'm now a week and a half overdue for posting my old transcripts)
[17:35]	Andrew Linden makes a not to catch up later today.
[17:35]	Sindy Tsure:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Office_Hours#Babbage_Linden
[17:35]	Andrew Linden:	Actually, one of the projects I talked about yesterday was the "simplified collisions hints" feature,which Simon is pretty intent on pushing through the system
[17:35]	Andrew Linden:	We've talked about that one several times before
[17:36]	Andrew Linden:	but basically the idea is to be able to make a complex object (concave parts, lots of prims) and specify that it actually collide with simpler geometry (convex prims, maybe even fewer total parts)
[17:37]	Arawn Spitteler:	There must be some algorhgythmic research on minimizing instructions to filter collision possibilities
[17:37]	Andrew Linden:	anyway, that one has someone working on getting a consensus that we should actually do it
[17:37]	Sindy Tsure:	what's the downside of doing it? just the cost of putting somebody on it?
[17:37]	Andrew Linden:	Yes Arwan, however there are a few really simple methods that don't take much research, and aren't very hard to do
[17:38]	Arawn Spitteler:	Object Attachments could be handy, where they don't register on the Physics Engine, or Prim Count
[17:38]	Andrew Linden:	in fact, the feature is actually so simple, I'd prefer to actually implement it, deploy it in stealth, and then try to get a consensus in LL to actually enable it in the SL client
[17:38]	Sindy Tsure:	lol
[17:38]	Sindy Tsure:	sorry.. i find that a little funny :)
[17:39]	Marianne McCann grins
[17:39]	Marianne McCann:	me too
[17:39]	Arawn Spitteler:	Secretly market a hacked viewer, and get donations for an alt
[17:39]	Andrew Linden:	That's the plan I'm going to suggest to Simon.
[17:39]	Andrew Linden:	Shhhhh. Don't tell anyone.
[17:39]	Sindy Tsure:	the secret's out now!
[17:39]	Neener Keats giggles
[17:39]	Sindy Tsure:	er.. unless it's a "i could tell you but then i'd have to kill you"
[17:39]	Orion Shamroy zips his lips for fear of being bombarded by crayons...
[17:39]	Marianne McCann:	The neko has left the prim!
[17:40]	Sindy Tsure:	if that's the case, i've been afk for a few..
[17:40]	Arawn Spitteler:	If anyone doesn't think it's a good idea, they won't read these office transcripts either
[17:40]	Andrew Linden:	Well, I'm sufficiently paranoid about introducing problems I would make it available only under admin powers, and also make it so that the feature did not persist an inventory save/load cycle, or a region save/load
[17:41]	Andrew Linden:	however, the idea would be to make it so LL testers could use it, verify that it provides some perforrmance enhancements
[17:41]	Andrew Linden:	which would make it easier to convince people that we should do the final work of introducing it to the User Interface
[17:42]	Sindy Tsure:	you think this would just be objects or avatars, too?
[17:42]	Andrew Linden:	just objects
[17:42]	Sindy Tsure wonders what simon's perf numbers say about the cost of collisions..
[17:42]	Andrew Linden:	simplifying avatars would introduce all sorts of problems...
[17:42]	Marianne McCann:	Don't I know it
[17:42]	Marianne McCann grins
[17:42]	Andrew Linden:	"My avatar can no longer walk up these stairs!"
[17:43]	Sindy Tsure nods
[17:43]	Sindy Tsure:	i had a question about collisions
[17:43]	Sindy Tsure:	but you'll yell at me if i ask..
[17:43]	Andrew Linden:	ask
[17:43]	Andrew Linden:	I NEVER YELL!!!
[17:43]	Sindy Tsure:	how horrible an idea is it to do llVolumeDetect on a wall-type megaprim?
[17:44]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm...
[17:44]	Sindy Tsure is thinking of surrounding about 1/3rd of a sim with walls that message people as they pass through
[17:44]	Sindy Tsure:	just too much volume for non-megaprims
[17:44]	Neener Keats:	sensor wouldn't be a better idea?
[17:44]	Andrew Linden:	The VolumeDetect feature is actually a "collision group" that has special collsion handlers that prompty disable collisions when they start.
[17:45]	Sindy Tsure:	so 2 people passing through would only pick up one?
[17:45]	Andrew Linden:	I think that if the megaprim is static (not dynamic) then it shouldn't be too expensive.
[17:45]	Andrew Linden:	No, sorry. The collisions with the VolumeDetect are disabled on a per-pair basis
[17:45]	Andrew Linden:	so just the collisions for the first avatar,
[17:46]	Andrew Linden:	and then again, a new entry into a map of pair info, for the second
[17:46]	Sindy Tsure:	not sure i understand 'pair'
[17:46]	Neener Keats:	this can be seen also with objects falling into the collision area that might need to be cleaned up for the collision to react again
[17:46]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm...
[17:47]	Andrew Linden:	well I guess the "dynamic" aspect of the megaprim only matters if there are a lot of static objects that would be inside it
[17:47]	Sindy Tsure:	so.. how long before it starts registering avatars passing through again?
[17:48]	Andrew Linden:	By "pair" I mean... each VD object has a map (as in std::map, a C++ism, think of it as an optimized list) of pairs
[17:48]	Sindy Tsure:	std::map i grok.. what's VD?
[17:48]	Andrew Linden:	each pair is really just two ID's... the VD object, and the other object that would collide with it
[17:48]	Sindy Tsure:	there are kids present btw.. no VD jokes!
[17:49]	Marianne McCann snickers
[17:49]	Andrew Linden:	those ID pairs are used to disable collisions between those two objects
[17:49]	Sindy Tsure:	oh..
[17:49]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, I wasn't thinking about the other meanings of VD
[17:49]	Sindy Tsure:	so it's not that only one avatar triggers the collision, it's that one avatar only triggers it for themselves onces?
[17:50]	Sindy Tsure:	*once
[17:50]	Andrew Linden:	usually I don't like throwing out too many acronums, but man, writing VolumeDetect contstantly is a pain
[17:50]	Sindy Tsure face palms.. sorry - shoulda picked that VD one up myself
[17:50]	Andrew Linden:	Well, the list of pairs is checked each time there is a collision
[17:51]	Andrew Linden:	so the avatar and the VD object contiue to collide... but the collisions are disabled each time, and a timestamp is recorded
[17:51]	Object: Hello, Avatar!
[17:52]	Andrew Linden:	any pairs on the list that get very old (a few physics timesteps old) get reaped from the list, and an exit() event is flagged for the VD's LSL script
[17:52]	Sindy Tsure:	when collisions are disabled, it's for everything or just avatars that already registered?
[17:52]	Andrew Linden:	if the avatar re-enters the object, an entry() event is flagged, the pair goes back on the list, where it is checked every so often to see if it is old for the next exit() event
[17:53]	Object: hit Sindy Tsure
[17:53]	Object: hit Sindy Tsure
[17:53]	Object: hit Sindy Tsure
[17:53]	Andrew Linden:	the collisions are disabled on pairwise basis... only between two objects
[17:53]	Andrew Linden:	the VD object, and the avatar in this scenario
[17:53]	Sindy Tsure:	so multiple people passing thru at the same object will each register
[17:53]	Sindy Tsure:	ok.. good!!
[17:53]	Andrew Linden:	Yes, they should each register
[17:54]	Andrew Linden:	so, there may be performance problems if you were to make a megaprim and throw an army of avatars, or dynamic objects into and out of it constantly
[17:54]	Sindy Tsure nods
[17:54]	Andrew Linden:	but not sure... probably it won't hurt the system much harder than just all those dyanmic objects themselves
[17:54]	Arawn Spitteler:	Equivalent prims wouldn't be a problem?
[17:55]	Sindy Tsure:	if you threw enough avatars at them, i bet they would be!
[17:55]	Sindy Tsure:	or objects
[17:55]	Andrew Linden:	"equivalent prims" I'm not sure I understand what that means Arawn
[17:55]	Sindy Tsure:	non-mega prims, i thinkl
[17:55]	Andrew Linden:	well, a megaprim can cover a large area, so it is easier to crowd more objects inside them
[17:56]	Arawn Spitteler:	If, instead of a 50X50 panel, I detected penetrations of 25 10X10 panels, would that be less of a performance hit?
[17:56]	Andrew Linden:	but the cost of the VoumeDetect lookup map would scale by the number of overlapping objects you could get
[17:56]	Andrew Linden:	so a megaprim isn't strictly necessary
[17:56]	Andrew Linden:	No Arawn, best to just make it one big panel, I think.
[17:56]	Sindy Tsure:	and the AABB stuff doesn't make it into some ginormous box?
[17:57]	Sindy Tsure:	...which is far bigger than the prim looks?
[17:57]	Arawn Spitteler:	I wnder why Burning Life prohibits them. Are some just being stodgy, or is there some problem I don't know
[17:57]	Andrew Linden:	The AABB is a tight AABB (compared to Havok1's very loose AABB-cube)
[17:57]	Sindy Tsure:	they're easy to abuse..
[17:58]	Andrew Linden:	so as long as your wall is actualy AABB (axis aligned) then the AABB should be quite tight
[17:58]	Orion Shamroy:	Well thats easy... Someone abuses right click -> return. :)
[17:58]	Andrew Linden:	but if you rotate your wall 45 degrees (PI/4) then you'd get a large AABB
[17:58]	Sindy Tsure:	the AABB is always sitting flat vs the world?
[17:59]	Sindy Tsure:	parallel
[17:59]	Andrew Linden:	however, I don't think you'll notice AABB changes affecting the sim performance much
[17:59]	Andrew Linden:	yes AABB emans Axis Aligned Bounding Box
[17:59]	Andrew Linden:	so it is Axis Aligned
[17:59]	Andrew Linden:	with the cardinal axes of the world
[17:59]	Sindy Tsure:	ok.. i think i get it now.. ty!
[18:00]	Sindy Tsure:	sorry for eating so much of his time, folks :\
[18:00]	Andrew Linden:	Well, unfortunately I don't have much really exciting news to talk about
[18:01]	Andrew Linden:	and we've already discussed all the neat "pie in the sky" ideas that will take much longer to implement than to talk about ;-)
[18:01]	Sindy Tsure tries to get http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-22 in every transcript...
[18:01]	Andrew Linden:	lol
[18:01]	Andrew Linden:	I you haven't been doing it enough because I've forgotten what that number connects to
[18:01]	Andrew Linden:	so now I have to look it up
[18:01]	Sindy Tsure:	vehicle sim crossing stuff
[18:02]	Sindy Tsure:	suggestion to allow getparceldetails to be able to peek over region lines
[18:02]	Sindy Tsure:	"can i move into the next region" sorta stuff
[18:02]	Sindy Tsure:	oh.. wrong bug..
[18:02]	Neener Keats:	I have the same issue
[18:02]	Andrew Linden:	oh right, vehicles can cross into restrictive parcels across region boundaries
[18:02]	Sindy Tsure:	this one's different - this is weirdness when you cross into a parcel that's full
[18:02]	Neener Keats:	with sensor
[18:03]	Sindy Tsure:	the prims of the vehicle seem to get counted against the parcel and all sorts of weirdness happens
[18:03]	Arawn Spitteler's still got broken ontent on http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2931 of course
[18:03]	Sindy Tsure:	...and it should not
[18:03]	Neener Keats:	for a train system. I have to disable the sensor, let the train carry on its course blindly, then reactivate as soon as another region is being detected
[18:04]	Sindy Tsure:	there are number of issues around that, neener.. :\
[18:04]	Sindy Tsure:	andrew loves talking about it
[18:04]	Neener Keats:	yea?
[18:04]	Andrew Linden:	Sigh...
[18:04]	Sindy Tsure:	sim crossing bugs are 3rd only to megaprims and llTargetOmega bugs..
[18:04]	Sindy Tsure waits for the eject
[18:04]	Andrew Linden:	llTargetOmga bugs supercede sim crossing bugs?
[18:05]	Andrew Linden:	on what measure?
[18:05]	Sindy Tsure:	the "fun to work on" measure
[18:05]	Andrew Linden:	annoyance? frequency?
[18:05]	Andrew Linden:	Ah yes
[18:05]	Marianne McCann:	I hear way way more about sim crossings. I alwys have
[18:05]	Arawn Spitteler:	exit_bounding_box() would be a nice function, with the sim being the default bounding box
[18:05]	Andrew Linden:	indeed, llTargetOmega bugs do eclipse border crossings...
[18:05]	Sindy Tsure:	and ban lines.. i'd love to see a less violent reaction when you run a vehicle into one
[18:05]	Neener Keats:	yes
[18:06]	Arawn Spitteler:	I wonder how much trouble it would be, to use Interest List Exclusions.
[18:06]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... I've got a few ideas on that vehicle/ban-line interaction
[18:06]	Arawn Spitteler:	Have you ever just ridden a vehicle across second life, Andrew?
[18:06]	Andrew Linden:	however, it requires very special case code
[18:06]	Andrew Linden:	Not in a long time Arwan
[18:07]	Marianne McCann does it often
[18:07]	Arawn Spitteler:	Enjoy, from time to time.
[18:07]	Sindy Tsure:	seems like it should be related to the speed you hit the ban lines at but i get tossed pretty hard regardless of speed
[18:07]	Andrew Linden:	not since it was actually possible to get from one side to the other in less than an hour
[18:07]	Marianne McCann:	It's still possible... with luck
[18:07]	Neener Keats:	Sindy, it simply crashes me once on twice
[18:07]	Arawn Spitteler:	I don't think it's possible, at all, without getting smashed into a sim corner, somewhere
[18:07]	Sindy Tsure:	viewer crash?
[18:07]	Marianne McCann:	And as long as you only go, say, over two land masses
[18:07]	Neener Keats:	totally
[18:08]	Andrew Linden:	If I were hunting for bugs to fix I might try it
[18:08]	Andrew Linden:	as it is, I've got a huge pile of bugs I want/need to fix
[18:08]	Sindy Tsure:	i had a hot air balloon i built last year.. travelled all over the old S continent.. only crashes were when the grid was acting up in-general and when i hit a ban line or full parcel on a sim crossing
[18:08]	Arawn Spitteler:	When I get my mutant vehicle up and running, we might just try it
[18:09]	Marianne McCann:	Same here, Sindy. I actually clock a lot of crossing in the "McCann Special" with few incidents
[18:09]	Sindy Tsure:	:)
[18:09]	Andrew Linden:	wow, it is already past 18:00
[18:09]	Marianne McCann:	I think a lot of the issues with sim crossings can end up being viewers with slower systems, sadly
[18:09]	Andrew Linden:	Any last minute questions before I go?
[18:09]	Neener Keats:	There is an interesting bug for me. Using the RC works perfectly, but the main client, official one, only shows the bounding box. I can't see my money, can't see friends online, not the sim (but the name shows) I'm in. On the other hand I receive group chat
[18:09]	Sindy Tsure:	not from me, andrew!
[18:10]	Arawn Spitteler has to go
[18:10]	Sindy Tsure:	cya, arawn
[18:10]	Marianne McCann does, too. On to some open sim beta stuff
[18:10]	Neener Keats:	goodbye ^^)
[18:10]	Sindy Tsure:	did you do the cache clear thing and all that, neener?
[18:10]	Sindy Tsure:	bye, mari!
[18:10]	Neener Keats:	yes
[18:10]	Andrew Linden:	Neener, sounds like you've got some special hardware/driver issue
[18:10]	Andrew Linden:	that is probably fixed in the RC
[18:11]	Sindy Tsure is on rc2 tonight.. so far pretty good!
[18:11]	Sindy Tsure:	even rc1 was crashy.. :( none yet on rc2 :)
[18:11]	Orion Shamroy:	Agreed on that one... No crashes at all, unlike the last release.:)
[18:11]	Neener Keats:	and yes. 80 % of a system bugs are drivers ones. But I filled up a ticket just in case as apart from Mari just now no one had that issue
[18:11]	Marianne McCann:	Take care, all!
[18:11]	Sindy Tsure waves!
[18:11]	Neener Keats:	Cyaa Mari!
[18:11]	Marianne McCann:	Bye Bye!!
[18:12]	Sindy Tsure:	oh.. it's more than 80%, neener..
[18:12]	Sindy Tsure:	with xp or above on windows anyway
[18:12]	Neener Keats:	I had a recent university paper that told about a current 80% related to drivers
[18:12]	Sindy Tsure:	andrew looks like he's gonna attack!
[18:13]	Sindy Tsure:	gimme yer wallet or you get colored!
[18:13]	Crayon Katyusha (trail) whispers: Use Mouselook (press 'M') to shoot me.
[18:13]	Crayon Katyusha (trail) whispers: Choose 'Detach' from my menu to take me off.
[18:13]	Sindy Tsure:	ha!!
[18:13]	Orion Shamroy:	COOL!
[18:13]	Sindy Tsure:	oh, that's good
[18:13]	Sindy Tsure:	i like the trails.. haven't seen that before
[18:13]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, this gun is really neat
[18:14]	Sindy Tsure:	hi kitto
[18:14]	Andrew Linden:	One of the interesting things about it is...
[18:14]	Sindy Tsure:	just missed mari
[18:14]	Andrew Linden:	that each piece is made by someone else
[18:14]	Kitto Flora:	Hello
[18:14]	Andrew Linden:	the crayon has a different creator, with a trail script that doesn't match
[18:14]	Andrew Linden:	and the gun's script is just a modified pop-gun script from the library
[18:14]	Sindy Tsure:	lol.. have to tell vlad b about that.. he's been doing collaberative building sessions lately..
[18:14]	Andrew Linden:	its a real collaborative effort
[18:15]	Sindy Tsure:	he will be amused
[18:15]	Andrew Linden:	a distillation of ideas
[18:15]	Sindy Tsure:	http://www.shiny-life.com/
[18:15]	Andrew Linden:	I don't think the gun was created in one go by several people, but it could have been... just guessing
[18:15]	Sindy Tsure:	any idea where you got it? still on sale?
[18:16]	Andrew Linden:	it was either a group all working at once, or more likely it was an evolution of ideas over several days or weeks
[18:16]	Andrew Linden:	it is free to copy I think...
[18:16]	Crayon Katyusha (trail) whispers: Choose 'Acquire->attach->left hand' from my menu to wear and use me.
[18:16]	Andrew Linden:	yeah
[18:16]	Sindy Tsure:	nope :(
[18:16]	Andrew Linden:	oh really?
[18:16]	Andrew Linden:	hrm...
[18:17]	Andrew Linden:	oh I see...
[18:17]	Andrew Linden:	it is free for me to copy or modify
[18:17]	Andrew Linden:	ok, try now
[18:17]	Sindy Tsure:	it'll give me a project - make
[18:17]	Sindy Tsure:	...my own
[18:17]	Sindy Tsure:	i see it saying anybody can copy but i still can't
[18:18]	Andrew Linden:	hrm...
[18:18]	Andrew Linden:	ok one moment
[18:18]	Neener Keats:	no
[18:18]	Neener Keats:	oh Alyx did it
[18:18]	Neener Keats:	I thought it was tizzy
[18:18]	Neener Keats:	many thanks
[18:18]	Sindy Tsure smiles
[18:18]	Sindy Tsure:	ty!
[18:18]	Orion Shamroy:	YAY! Thanks :)
[18:18]	Andrew Linden:	anyone else want a copy before I go?
[18:19]	Crayon Katyusha (trail) whispers: Use Mouselook (press 'M') to shoot me.
[18:19]	Crayon Katyusha (trail) whispers: Choose 'Detach' from my menu to take me off.
[18:19]	Sindy Tsure:	that's really neat! i'm so stealing this idea