User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2009 09 03

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  • [2009/09/03 16:59] Ardy Lay: Hi Simon
  • [2009/09/03 16:59] Simon Linden: Hi Ardy, how's things?
  • [2009/09/03 16:59] Papa Popinjay: Hi Simon
  • [2009/09/03 16:59] Ardy Lay: Okay I guess
  • [2009/09/03 16:59] Simon Linden: Hello
  • [2009/09/03 16:59] Cerdita Piek: Hello all
  • [2009/09/03 16:59] Techwolf Lupindo: Simon early
  • [2009/09/03 16:59] Simon Linden: I also have to leave early ... can only stay 15 minutes or so
  • [2009/09/03 17:00] Simon Linden: Andrew should be here shortly
  • [2009/09/03 17:00] Techwolf Lupindo: awww.
  • [2009/09/03 17:00] Ardy Lay: How is 1.30 shaping up?
  • [2009/09/03 17:00] Meeter: Welcome to Linden office hours
  • [2009/09/03 17:00] Simon Linden: Pretty good ... I think the pilot roll is scheduled for next week
  • [2009/09/03 17:01] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
  • [2009/09/03 17:01] Sebastean Steamweaver: Hi there!
  • [2009/09/03 17:01] Rex Cronon: hi
  • [2009/09/03 17:01] Sebastean Steamweaver: I'm just dropping in for the beginning here :)
  • [2009/09/03 17:02] Sebastean Steamweaver: I wanted tosee if there were any announcemets.
  • [2009/09/03 17:02] Sebastean Steamweaver: announcements*
  • [2009/09/03 17:02] Ardy Lay: I think the lack od release notes is making people nervous.
  • [2009/09/03 17:02] Charlette Proto: would be nice if new server could block 'BAD' viewers eg CryoLife
  • [2009/09/03 17:02] Rex Cronon: what does cyrolife do? freeze u?
  • [2009/09/03 17:02] Techwolf Lupindo: The viewer self indentify now. They can easly patch to spoof LL client.
  • [2009/09/03 17:02] Simon Linden: There's actually not much in it, if I remember -- some bug fixes, but we're trying to get back into smoother, shorter releases
  • [2009/09/03 17:03] Charlette Proto: one could block Cryo Neil VLife and CopyBot and let users register the intent to use them when need be to be allowed individually
  • [2009/09/03 17:03] Simon Linden: yeah, that's the problem for the viewer side. They can pretend to be whichever version they want
  • [2009/09/03 17:03] Morgaine Dinova: Hi Andrew, Simon :-)
  • [2009/09/03 17:03] Sebastean Steamweaver: Hi Andrew :) Simon
  • [2009/09/03 17:03] Simon Linden: You could block it, and they could just change that text in the program and appear to be the regular viewer
  • [2009/09/03 17:04] Simon Linden: Then that version info would be totally useless. Now, we can't trust it 100%, but at least _some_ of the viewer variations are identifying themselves
  • [2009/09/03 17:04] Andrew Linden: Hello. Ok I'm officially present.
  • [2009/09/03 17:04] Sebastean Steamweaver: Yay!
  • [2009/09/03 17:04] Morgaine Dinova: All viewers are kinda collections of patch sets, everyone uses everyone else's patches. So the names are kinda incidental anyway
  • [2009/09/03 17:04] Charlette Proto: well but couldn't detection be made more reliable (not thinking of people building their own but those freely available to knobs using them so much now
  • [2009/09/03 17:04] Andrew Linden: I was processing the backlog of my offline IM's
  • [2009/09/03 17:05] Rex Cronon: hi andrw
  • [2009/09/03 17:05] Sebastean Steamweaver: Could I show you an excellent example case for llSetLinkListPrimtiveParams? SVC-2105
  • [2009/09/03 17:05] Meeter: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2105
  • [#SVC-2105] llSetLinkListPrimitiveParams() for setting multiple, specific linked items
  • [2009/09/03 17:05] Sebastean Steamweaver: Just before I disappear :)
  • [2009/09/03 17:05] Charlette Proto: I'm sure each could be required to register a UUID with LL upon a new build and if recognised to be neferius scrapped from the list
  • [2009/09/03 17:06] Morgaine Dinova: Charlette: not gonna happen.
  • [2009/09/03 17:06] Techwolf Lupindo: We all have UUID now.
  • [2009/09/03 17:06] Charlette Proto: well then Intellectual Property let alone Metagrid economy will be just a puff of smoke and a dream
  • [2009/09/03 17:06] Charlette Proto: STORM you are asleep?
  • [2009/09/03 17:07] Morgaine Dinova: Charlette: that's not gonna happen either.
  • [2009/09/03 17:07] Andrew Linden: No, there is no way for the servers to know for sure what the true client is. Not based on supplied identity anyway.
  • [2009/09/03 17:07] Charlette Proto: good to hear xStorm
  • [2009/09/03 17:07] Morgaine Dinova: The economy has always been as it is, and it's not gonna change. The conditions haven't changed at all.
  • [2009/09/03 17:07] Rex Cronon: there might be a way:)
  • [2009/09/03 17:07] Simon Linden: Well, it's pretty hard to _really_ protect any data sent down to the viewer, especially since it's open source. Closed source would just make the problem more difficult, but people were hacking the message protocol back then anyway
  • [2009/09/03 17:07] Charlette Proto: but couldn't that be changed Andrew, the av copying is an epidemic now
  • [2009/09/03 17:08] Rex Cronon: u could make the viewer an java applet and evrybody would have to download it
  • [2009/09/03 17:08] Morgaine Dinova: This is not a subject in which logic helps. People refuse to listen
  • [2009/09/03 17:09] Andrew Linden: there might be some valuable arms race warfare to do in avatar uploads
  • [2009/09/03 17:09] Techwolf Lupindo: hehe, only the disposiable are copying avs to grieft with. They can't be sold anyway, so its just the usall content creators whiineing over noththing.
  • [2009/09/03 17:09] Techwolf Lupindo: diapoiable accounts that is
  • [2009/09/03 17:09] Morgaine Dinova: Rex: this may not be the world you were looking for.
  • [2009/09/03 17:09] Andrew Linden: but it will be that -- an arms race only
  • [2009/09/03 17:09] Rex Cronon: is a possiblility
  • [2009/09/03 17:09] Charlette Proto: yup but the XML files are used by the next av they make
  • [2009/09/03 17:10] Andrew Linden: nevertheless, I suspect uploading avatar copies could be made more difficult
  • [2009/09/03 17:10] Sebastean Steamweaver: Any announcements andrew?
  • [2009/09/03 17:10] Sebastean Steamweaver: I just need to leave really soon, that's why I ask.
  • [2009/09/03 17:10] Charlette Proto: I'm sure it could andrew
  • [2009/09/03 17:10] Andrew Linden: yes...
  • [2009/09/03 17:10] Andrew Linden: server-1.30 is on schedule... maybe
  • [2009/09/03 17:11] Andrew Linden: there is a showstopper that I was recently recruited to help with (about an hour ago)
  • [2009/09/03 17:11] Andrew Linden: and it needs to be fixed soon
  • [2009/09/03 17:11] Morgaine Dinova: Andrew: your choice to enter the arms race. Good luck. I thought LL didn't have enough dev resource ...
  • [2009/09/03 17:11] Andrew Linden: er... fixed yesterday
  • [2009/09/03 17:11] xstorm Radek: Andrew have you seen the new snowglobe updats they have been working on ?
  • [2009/09/03 17:11] Sebastean Steamweaver: Any delicious things in 1.30 that'll fill my heart with happyhappyjoyjoy?
  • [2009/09/03 17:11] Andrew Linden: so I was thinking about bailing on this hour
  • [2009/09/03 17:11] Andrew Linden: however Simon has to leave before it is over, so I decided to come
  • [2009/09/03 17:11] reddot99 Republic: thanks for that andrew,
  • [2009/09/03 17:11] Andrew Linden: I'll just have to burn some midnight oil before I go home
  • [2009/09/03 17:12] Rex Cronon: morgaine. the war is inivitable:)
  • [2009/09/03 17:12] xstorm Radek: are you two jumping ship ?
  • [2009/09/03 17:12] Charlette Proto: we can manage on our own andrew, we all know how to have fun in Second Life™
  • [2009/09/03 17:12] Sebastean Steamweaver: All righty
  • [2009/09/03 17:12] Andrew Linden: No xstorm, I haven't looked at snowglobe work yet.
  • [2009/09/03 17:12] Sebastean Steamweaver: I'll lend you some of my midnight oil if you need it Andrew. I've plenty to spare.
  • [2009/09/03 17:12] Sebastean Steamweaver: And on that note, have a good day all :)
  • [2009/09/03 17:12] Rex Cronon: inevitable*
  • [2009/09/03 17:13] Andrew Linden: I don't know of any super wonderful things in 1.30 actually
  • [2009/09/03 17:13] Simon Linden: I have to head out in a minute ... gotta get home in RL early today
  • [2009/09/03 17:13] Rex Cronon: tc
  • [2009/09/03 17:13] Andrew Linden: some old bugs have been fixed, not a whole lot
  • [2009/09/03 17:13] xstorm Radek: oh ok well with the new patch work they have been doing it may help with how fast things load
  • [2009/09/03 17:13] Charlette Proto: we'd rather yLindens fixed showstoppers than entertaining us
  • [2009/09/03 17:13] Andrew Linden: some bug fixes didn't make it, most notably VWR-6110
  • [2009/09/03 17:13] Meeter: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-6110
  • [#VWR-6110] [ ] I was attaching a hud when my other hud with animations-content (worth 22000LD!) disappeared.
  • [2009/09/03 17:13] Morgaine Dinova: Rex: there is no war. There are however quite a few Luddites who insist on going extinct.
  • [2009/09/03 17:14] reddot99 Republic: what war?
  • [2009/09/03 17:14] Simon Linden: I'm heading out ... sorry to leave early. See you all next time
  • [2009/09/03 17:14] xstorm Radek: oh and i hate to say this but i know when i am getting throttle by the server and i have more lag then i need now
  • [2009/09/03 17:14] Sebastean Steamweaver: And for the record, SVC-2885, MISC-3077 :D I'll leave you quoting the others.
  • [2009/09/03 17:14] Meeter: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2885
  • [#SVC-2885] llSetObjectScale and llGetObjectScale
  • [2009/09/03 17:14] Meeter: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-3077
  • [#MISC-3077] Meta-Issue: List of Linden-Confirmed Easy Changes/Additions With Large Returns
  • [2009/09/03 17:14] Rex Cronon: the war for protection:)
  • [2009/09/03 17:14] Sebastean Steamweaver poofs
  • [2009/09/03 17:14] Morgaine Dinova: Protectionist Luddites versus digital technology.
  • [2009/09/03 17:14] Andrew Linden: Ok see you later Simon.;
  • [2009/09/03 17:14] Charlette Proto: quit this war kids so maybe Andrew will get some sleep tonight
  • [2009/09/03 17:14] Rex Cronon: IP protection
  • [2009/09/03 17:14] Simon Linden: and svc-22 !
  • [2009/09/03 17:14] Meeter: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-22
  • [#SVC-22] Vehicles crossing region borders aren't always treated as vehicles and can get incorrectly returned if the destination parcel is no-entry or parcel-full
  • [2009/09/03 17:14] Morgaine Dinova: Cya Simon
  • [2009/09/03 17:14] Rex Cronon: tc simon
  • [2009/09/03 17:14] Simon Linden: bye
  • [2009/09/03 17:15] reddot99 Republic: ah, that war was lost by protectionists long before it officially began
  • [2009/09/03 17:15] Morgaine Dinova: Has Agni just gone down?
  • [2009/09/03 17:15] Andrew Linden: the "war" I think is to do with copybot stuff
  • [2009/09/03 17:15] Techwolf Lupindo: Why does an IP need protection? Its just a number anyway.
  • [2009/09/03 17:15] Techwolf Lupindo: :-)
  • [2009/09/03 17:15] Charlette Proto: hehe
  • [2009/09/03 17:15] xstorm Radek: ok i have seen why this is in some cases
  • [2009/09/03 17:15] xstorm Radek: Vehicles crossing region borders aren't always treated as vehicles
  • [2009/09/03 17:15] Charlette Proto: Intellectual property Tech
  • [2009/09/03 17:15] Andrew Linden: hrm... I just had an idea about copybot... I wonder whether it would work
  • [2009/09/03 17:16] reddot99 Republic: what would that idea be?
  • [2009/09/03 17:16] Charlette Proto: sounds worth looking into Andrew
  • [2009/09/03 17:16] xstorm Radek: some of them Vehicles are not just 30 prims
  • [2009/09/03 17:16] reddot99 Republic: some are 32 xstorm
  • [2009/09/03 17:16] Andrew Linden: well, when it comes to avatar outfits there are textures and attachments
  • [2009/09/03 17:16] Charlette Proto: after all IP needs to have some semblance of truth so i can keep buying nice clothes
  • [2009/09/03 17:16] reddot99 Republic: :p
  • [2009/09/03 17:16] xstorm Radek: some are 100 prims
  • [2009/09/03 17:17] Andrew Linden: textures and attachment geometry can be copied by any viewer that needs to ever render them
  • [2009/09/03 17:17] Techwolf Lupindo: There is no such thing Charlette. Only copyright, trademark, and patents.
  • [2009/09/03 17:17] reddot99 Republic: and?
  • [2009/09/03 17:17] Morgaine Dinova: Tech++
  • [2009/09/03 17:17] Charlette Proto: in my case the shape is the most unique aspect which I don't want copybotted Andrew
  • [2009/09/03 17:17] Andrew Linden: this copy capability is fundamental and cannot be stopped via a DRM war
  • [2009/09/03 17:17] Charlette Proto: the reverse tech
  • [2009/09/03 17:18] Andrew Linden: it is identical to the problem with copying digital music
  • [2009/09/03 17:18] Andrew Linden: heh... I'm talking myself out of my idea
  • [2009/09/03 17:18] xstorm Radek: i founf a AIR ship that some people use and it will count every time on a land prim count
  • [2009/09/03 17:18] reddot99 Republic: shape can be duplicated by eye for gods sake charlette
  • [2009/09/03 17:18] Papa Popinjay: only composite textures need to be available tho
  • [2009/09/03 17:19] reddot99 Republic: and they'll be the only thing availible soon, papa,
  • [2009/09/03 17:19] Andrew Linden: I was just thinking... maybe there would be a way to have "hidden" data in the uploaded asset that would impart a stenographic signal in the visible data that is sent to SL clients to render
  • [2009/09/03 17:19] Techwolf Lupindo: We been getting a few trolls latley at the OH today.
  • [2009/09/03 17:19] Morgaine Dinova: Andrew: even if you get started on an idea, it'll melt before your eyes when interop comes into the equation.
  • [2009/09/03 17:19] xstorm Radek: so they need to define about what type of car or plain or airship they use
  • [2009/09/03 17:19] Charlette Proto: but assets could be watermarked with av UUID and viewers would need the UUID present to decode it hence making it useless to anyone else
  • [2009/09/03 17:20] Charlette Proto: now you are thinking Andrew
  • [2009/09/03 17:20] Andrew Linden: yeah, I don't think I've thought it all the way through yet...
  • [2009/09/03 17:20] Charlette Proto: this is making me warm
  • [2009/09/03 17:20] reddot99 Republic: erm, thats avilible in creator feild charlette
  • [2009/09/03 17:20] Techwolf Lupindo: The probem is that B and C are the same person. No "DRM" will work.
  • [2009/09/03 17:20] Andrew Linden: you'd have to be able to determine if something was a copy, not a very close accidental copy
  • [2009/09/03 17:20] Andrew Linden: what if someone uploads an all white texture
  • [2009/09/03 17:21] Andrew Linden: it is easy to upload, so there may be several identical independent uploads
  • [2009/09/03 17:21] Charlette Proto: red available is nothing till you have the av with matching UUID in the sim or else the viewer would not decode the watermarked file
  • [2009/09/03 17:21] Andrew Linden: so you want to be able to tell the difference between the copies of the white texture and the independent uploads.
  • [2009/09/03 17:21] Techwolf Lupindo: Watermarking has limitations too. It was use by webmasters for awhile, but they still find copyed works that wasn't detected.
  • [2009/09/03 17:21] Rex Cronon: nobody is goind to ar a white texture. lol
  • [2009/09/03 17:22] Ardy Lay: That's NOT mu boat.
  • [2009/09/03 17:22] Charlette Proto: xStorm you popped this ship into may cam hehe
  • [2009/09/03 17:22] xstorm Radek: that you can drive
  • [2009/09/03 17:23] Andrew Linden: Well, I can think of tools that would make it easier to spot copies viewer side, and tools for making digital takedowns easier and more complete
  • [2009/09/03 17:23] xstorm Radek: and it has over 30 prims
  • [2009/09/03 17:23] reddot99 Republic: doesnt the eula say that ll isnt responsible for ip issues in sl?
  • [2009/09/03 17:23] xstorm Radek: and counts on the land prims
  • [2009/09/03 17:23] Andrew Linden: in fact, I've been asked to help with some of LL's takedown tools for copyright and trademark claims
  • [2009/09/03 17:23] Charlette Proto: I think this area needs a good look into if the economy is to survive
  • [2009/09/03 17:24] Techwolf Lupindo: Tool to make enforment easer will go a long ways to curbing the problem down to a manageable level.
  • [2009/09/03 17:24] Morgaine Dinova: You're missing the point that copied assets are not going to be preserved intact. As soon as you add steganography, the copies will be modifed in insignificant ways and the few forms them don't have your signal so won't be detected as copies. Welcome to the arms race.
  • [2009/09/03 17:24] Trinity Coulter: isn't it pretty much a lost cause in SL right now, the way that assets are handled by the Viewer?
  • [2009/09/03 17:25] Charlette Proto: well if you employ two measures at once Morgaine it would be impossible to defeat them both
  • [2009/09/03 17:25] Andrew Linden: however I amd not a lawyer (IANAL)
  • [2009/09/03 17:25] Andrew Linden: LL is not responsible, but it still must abide by certain laws about digital content
  • [2009/09/03 17:25] reddot99 Republic: that or recompression via jpg for texturesif you wanted to scramble data
  • [2009/09/03 17:25] Rex Cronon: morgaine. only a few people will modify images. lost of them will just copy
  • [2009/09/03 17:25] Charlette Proto: I've seen similar scenarios in image field, two systems side by side are much harder to defeat
  • [2009/09/03 17:25] Techwolf Lupindo: Charlette, it would just require to defect both then. Welcome to the arms race.
  • [2009/09/03 17:25] reddot99 Republic: charlette, thats what hollywood said about blueray,
  • [2009/09/03 17:25] Trinity Coulter: I guess I just mean that the way the place is currently built, very little is protected except because people haven't decided to bother
  • [2009/09/03 17:25] Morgaine Dinova: Rex: no, the copy tools will modify them automatically.
  • [2009/09/03 17:26] Andrew Linden: right, it really is an arms race
  • [2009/09/03 17:26] Trinity Coulter: so, in order to do it, wouldn't you have to change things so its done 'right'?
  • [2009/09/03 17:26] Andrew Linden: which means you can't win, you can only make the other side work harder
  • [2009/09/03 17:26] Techwolf Lupindo: blueray and HDDVD was defeted.
  • [2009/09/03 17:26] Morgaine Dinova mutters "interop"
  • [2009/09/03 17:27] reddot99 Republic: exactly my point texh
  • [2009/09/03 17:27] reddot99 Republic: tech
  • [2009/09/03 17:27] Andrew Linden: but when the software gets smarter on both sides it doesn't seem like each side is working very hard after all
  • [2009/09/03 17:27] Morgaine Dinova: The interop future just makes any attempt at this beyond the control of any one grid, so good luck with that
  • [2009/09/03 17:27] Papa Popinjay: a person could use the old tool that intercepted the object forms and textures at graphics layer level tho (available before copybot)
  • [2009/09/03 17:27] Trinity Coulter: you not only want to be able to know when something was wrongly copied, but also if it was rightly copied
  • [2009/09/03 17:27] Charlette Proto: well sure but as it is we aren't even trying, copies are easier to make than purchases as it is
  • [2009/09/03 17:27] Techwolf Lupindo: The biggest problem in getting involved with the arms race is it makes enforment very tough due to the copies are so good at avoiding dections.
  • [2009/09/03 17:28] reddot99 Republic: for as long as there are gl intercepters there will be copys
  • [2009/09/03 17:28] Morgaine Dinova: Charlette: try bringing your prices down
  • [2009/09/03 17:28] Charlette Proto: the future of property is digital and ways will be found to protect it
  • [2009/09/03 17:28] xstorm Radek: software is never smart !! it is the people that have program the software
  • [2009/09/03 17:28] Charlette Proto: I'm all into low prices since legal copies will always be free
  • [2009/09/03 17:28] reddot99 Republic: and ways will be found to circumvent protection,
  • [2009/09/03 17:29] reddot99 Republic: in all cases whatsoever
  • [2009/09/03 17:29] Charlette Proto: digital economy has only one value - the original design (arteafact)
  • [2009/09/03 17:29] xstorm Radek: but remember some times free is stolen and you may be supporting theft of content
  • [2009/09/03 17:29] Trinity Coulter: digital information is inherently copiable and you can't automate everything.... if I make a wood chair from a template in Photoshop and someone else makes it too.... how does Linden Lab know who is entitled to that?
  • [2009/09/03 17:29] Morgaine Dinova: It's the same as the RIAA and the music labels. They don't drop their prices to match the new techonology so the kids copy. If it were more hassle to copy than to download music with all the nice sleeves etc, and if the price were sensible instead of price gouging, then it would be different.
  • [2009/09/03 17:30] Trinity Coulter: doesn't that require a judgement call?
  • [2009/09/03 17:30] Morgaine Dinova: So just lower your prices to suit the digital environment
  • [2009/09/03 17:30] Charlette Proto: agree Morgaine
  • [2009/09/03 17:30] Techwolf Lupindo: How can you steal content? Is there SEC issues we don't know about where on can steal no-copy stuff from there inventory?
  • [2009/09/03 17:30] Meeter: Timecheck : office hours is half over
  • [2009/09/03 17:30] reddot99 Republic: morgaine, radio head did an experiment disproving that idea some time back
  • [2009/09/03 17:31] Ardy Lay: Hehe, wrong target audience.
  • [2009/09/03 17:31] Morgaine Dinova: You can't steal anything by copying but only infringe copyright, but protectionist Luddites like to use the term incorrectly just for emotive purposes.
  • [2009/09/03 17:31] xstorm Radek: copybots do take a mirror image of items and puts them items in another persons name !
  • [2009/09/03 17:31] Rex Cronon: techwolf. textures r stolen, sculpties r stolen, linked objects r stolen, avatar shapes r stolen
  • [2009/09/03 17:31] xstorm Radek: you can go to jail for doing just that
  • [2009/09/03 17:32] Morgaine Dinova: You can go to jail for spitting on the pavement, but that still doesn't make it "stealing"
  • [2009/09/03 17:32] Trinity Coulter: I think stolen is a pretty good word for people to use
  • [2009/09/03 17:32] Charlette Proto: anyway, my point mainly concerns the original shapes and skins (your unique look like in RL) not the clothes etc
  • [2009/09/03 17:32] Techwolf Lupindo: NEXT!!
  • [2009/09/03 17:33] xstorm Radek: theft of content is still theft
  • [2009/09/03 17:33] Rex Cronon: what is the definition of stealing? when u obtain goods that don't belong to your without the consent of the owner. right?
  • [2009/09/03 17:33] Morgaine Dinova: Trinity: if you have a camera and someone steals it from you, I suggest you call the police. But when they discover that you still have the camera, you're in serious trouble.
  • [2009/09/03 17:33] Trinity Coulter: that's not the same tho, Morgaine
  • [2009/09/03 17:33] Charlette Proto: clothes are dime a dozen, unique appearance is a creative effort and the need for consistency and certainly does not lend itself to clones running around
  • [2009/09/03 17:34] Techwolf Lupindo: These idiots. You can't steal something that doesn't phycially exitst in the first place.
  • [2009/09/03 17:34] Morgaine Dinova: Trinity: your choice to use the same word when you actually mean copyright infringement
  • [2009/09/03 17:34] Trinity Coulter: if I work all night on a report for my teacher and then the next day another student gets up and gives that report before i do.... most people would say they stole it
  • [2009/09/03 17:34] Rex Cronon: information/data ihas value and it can be stollen
  • [2009/09/03 17:34] Ardy Lay: Anybody get the dead-horse-floggin feeling about this topic?
  • [2009/09/03 17:34] Trinity Coulter: they stole my work
  • [2009/09/03 17:34] Trinity Coulter: my effort
  • [2009/09/03 17:34] Trinity Coulter: and then it becomes less valuable to me
  • [2009/09/03 17:34] Morgaine Dinova: Ardy: yeah
  • [2009/09/03 17:34] xstorm Radek: and if you do not think its theft give the person doing it your bank account password and user name for that is just what you are doing by leting them copy with a copybot
  • [2009/09/03 17:34] Trinity Coulter: they took AKA stole value
  • [2009/09/03 17:34] Trinity Coulter: value is a thing that we understand
  • [2009/09/03 17:35] Morgaine Dinova: Some people understand what copyright infringement means, and the rest invent things. It's pretty simple.
  • [2009/09/03 17:35] Ardy Lay: Stop saying "they", identify the perps and start action against them.
  • [2009/09/03 17:35] Charlette Proto: value in the future is all about unique/original arteafacts
  • [2009/09/03 17:35] Ardy Lay: Digimarc your textures
  • [2009/09/03 17:35] Morgaine Dinova: Trinity: you can't "steal value", stop inventing things
  • [2009/09/03 17:35] Andrew Linden: ok, I don't think we're going to solve the digital content issues and copyablility here
  • [2009/09/03 17:35] Trinity Coulter: not sure why it really matters to be so picky about word choices tho.... in the end people feel whatever they feel
  • [2009/09/03 17:36] Morgaine Dinova: Andrew++
  • [2009/09/03 17:36] Ardy Lay: Keep a registry of creation data.
  • [2009/09/03 17:36] Rex Cronon: data can be stollen
  • [2009/09/03 17:36] Charlette Proto: hehe agree with Andrew
  • [2009/09/03 17:36] Andrew Linden: it is a "nigh impossible" problem to solve technically, although I think some progress can be made
  • [2009/09/03 17:36] Trinity Coulter: also not sure why i'm "inventing" a concept when its pretty clearly established as such in IP law
  • [2009/09/03 17:36] xstorm Radek: when a person makes any item in side of second life it is the owner of the one that made it and built on the Linden lab server with date and time stamping
  • [2009/09/03 17:36] Techwolf Lupindo: Trinity, I dare you to find ONE "IP law"
  • [2009/09/03 17:36] Morgaine Dinova: Data cannot be stolen. At most it can be copied, and the original deleted. And those two things are different infringements.
  • [2009/09/03 17:37] Andrew Linden: in particular whatever outfits you upload should exist completely in your inventory first
  • [2009/09/03 17:37] Charlette Proto: I suggest we let Andrew go back to his work and we can have a foo fight
  • [2009/09/03 17:37] reddot99 Republic: they set it up so that one could pay whatever one wanted for the album, including nothing, a nd yet illegal copies floated around,
  • [2009/09/03 17:37] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah, this is a waste of Andrew's time
  • [2009/09/03 17:37] xstorm Radek: date and time stamping with a UUID number = copyright by law
  • [2009/09/03 17:37] Andrew Linden: and... the texture should have creator attributes stored inside. These are places where LL needs to do some real development work.
  • [2009/09/03 17:37] reddot99 Republic: no, you have to file for copyright
  • [2009/09/03 17:38] Morgaine Dinova: Who did that, so we can mute them?
  • [2009/09/03 17:38] Patty1 Rosca: why is the sim I am in has ping time up and down? when they suppose to have fixed
  • [2009/09/03 17:38] Charlette Proto: Andrew I'm most concerned about the av shape and original skin textures, could these be encoded with the UUID or something like that
  • [2009/09/03 17:38] Andrew Linden: Now if I had news or info on some other project I would have derailed that conversation earlier.
  • [2009/09/03 17:38] Trinity Coulter: U.S. Constitution, Article I, Section 8, "To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;"
  • [2009/09/03 17:38] Trinity Coulter: there you go... there is 1 law
  • [2009/09/03 17:39] Morgaine Dinova: Andrew: /me chuckles. Feel free to reveal something ^_^
  • [2009/09/03 17:39] Trinity Coulter: please don't be silly and nitpicky like that again tho
  • [2009/09/03 17:39] Techwolf Lupindo: The is copyright there Trinity.
  • [2009/09/03 17:39] Andrew Linden: Not really Charlette, the avatar skin is texture, fundamentally like all textures
  • [2009/09/03 17:39] Techwolf Lupindo: the=that
  • [2009/09/03 17:39] Patty1 Rosca: why is debug transfer haulted?
  • [2009/09/03 17:39] Andrew Linden: the body shape is geometry, fundamentally like all geometry
  • [2009/09/03 17:40] Trinity Coulter: I'm not really wanting to play word games, just thought it was an interesting topic
  • [2009/09/03 17:40] Andrew Linden: ? debug transfer?
  • [2009/09/03 17:40] reddot99 Republic: not an ip law though, as that was long before the concept existed,
  • [2009/09/03 17:40] xstorm Radek: and when a group of copybots go in and copy a Linden Lab build that is not permited
  • [2009/09/03 17:40] Techwolf Lupindo: and patents
  • [2009/09/03 17:40] Patty1 Rosca: the sim we have land in it shows debug haulted at lag points
  • [2009/09/03 17:40] reddot99 Republic: that would be lapses in your connection patty
  • [2009/09/03 17:40] Patty1 Rosca: it should be transfer
  • [2009/09/03 17:41] Andrew Linden: what is "debug"? You mean the simuilator debug stats?
  • [2009/09/03 17:41] Charlette Proto: yeah but the viewer could be altered to require the av with a given UUID to decode the correct view hence BAD viewers would require some illegal code breaking this etc
  • [2009/09/03 17:41] Morgaine Dinova: I suggest we leave the Luddites to it, and even encourage them. Because that way their businesses will collapse faster since they're based on a delusion.
  • [2009/09/03 17:41] Patty1 Rosca: it only does it in our sim
  • [2009/09/03 17:41] reddot99 Republic: you cant regulate a veiwer after releasing it open source,
  • [2009/09/03 17:42] Trinity Coulter: Andrew, I think its clear that Linden Lab would LIKE to do something more to safeguard virtual property, but it sounds like it will be a complicated thing
  • [2009/09/03 17:42] reddot99 Republic: not in any meaningful way,
  • [2009/09/03 17:42] Andrew Linden: I still don't understand: "debug halted at lag points"
  • [2009/09/03 17:42] Morgaine Dinova: Come on folks, help Andrew derail the Luddite nonsense.
  • [2009/09/03 17:42] Ardy Lay: I suspect her simulator needs restarted.
  • [2009/09/03 17:42] Morgaine Dinova: lol
  • [2009/09/03 17:43] Rex Cronon: comunism was one regime that didn't put any value of personal property. is that what ll is thriving? i don't think so since is ll is a business in a capitalist country
  • [2009/09/03 17:43] xstorm Radek: yes corfeld is having some problem it is true and the Consol debug is showing a number of small problems plus the stats keep showing 0 bandwith and high FPS and this info was sent to support and we even had a server tech come in to look at the problem
  • [2009/09/03 17:43] Patty1 Rosca: when you go into debug console
  • [2009/09/03 17:43] A group member named Daaneth Kivioq owned by the group 'Sunweavers' gave you xkcd-skins.
  • [2009/09/03 17:43] Trinity Coulter: very good point, Rex :)
  • [2009/09/03 17:43] A group member named Jaxx Tardis owned by the group 'Sunweavers' gave you Ferals Last Resort, Sunweaver Cove (228, 141, 700).
  • [2009/09/03 17:43] Andrew Linden: Patty1, what is the region name?
  • [2009/09/03 17:43] Morgaine Dinova: Oh nice, when Luddites bring out communism you know they're on a winning streak ^_^
  • [2009/09/03 17:43] xstorm Radek: Corfeld
  • [2009/09/03 17:43] xstorm Radek: is the sim
  • [2009/09/03 17:44] Andrew Linden: If the simulator running the region *blocks* then no data will be sent from it until it is no longer blocked.
  • [2009/09/03 17:44] xstorm Radek: part of corsica
  • [2009/09/03 17:44] Trinity Coulter: who exactly are these 'Luddites' that some people keep mentioning?
  • [2009/09/03 17:44] Rex Cronon: i have to agree though. enought talk about IP as is it unlikely tobe solved now
  • [2009/09/03 17:44] Andrew Linden: By "block" I mean it is stuck doing something for a noticable amount of time.
  • [2009/09/03 17:44] Trinity Coulter: again, very good point, Rex
  • [2009/09/03 17:45] reddot99 Republic: luddite is a term often used in the place of technophobe
  • [2009/09/03 17:45] Rex Cronon: luddites r people that do't like progress
  • [2009/09/03 17:45] Charlette Proto: Ludites are those who believe in original cration of arteafacts and the need to protect the uniqueness of those
  • [2009/09/03 17:45] Morgaine Dinova: Trinity: read up on Luddites and then see who here matches that description, *exactly*
  • [2009/09/03 17:45] xstorm Radek: but Andrew why are the server doing a throttle of the client software ????
  • [2009/09/03 17:45] Charlette Proto: hehe
  • [2009/09/03 17:45] Ardy Lay: Sounds like that's a good one to snoop at the moment Andrew.
  • [2009/09/03 17:45] Trinity Coulter: I did read, but it sounds like its just being throw around like an insult instead of keeping this conversation professional
  • [2009/09/03 17:45] Trinity Coulter: *thrown
  • [2009/09/03 17:46] xstorm Radek: to throttle the user side is to slow down the user side software
  • [2009/09/03 17:46] Andrew Linden: what do you mean xstorm? What bit of the client is the server throttling?
  • [2009/09/03 17:46] Charlette Proto: sorry I'm being defensive, but i'm glad nobody copied me in Real Life™ as yet
  • [2009/09/03 17:46] Techwolf Lupindo: "The Luddites were a social movement of British textile artisans in the early nineteenth century who protested—often by destroying mechanized looms—against the changes produced by the Industrial Revolution, which they felt were leaving them without work and changing their entire way of life."
  • [2009/09/03 17:46] reddot99 Republic: its not a throttle, its a freezeup on the server
  • [2009/09/03 17:46] Morgaine Dinova: Trinity: it's factual, but if you think it's being used as a term of ridicule as well, you'll be right. It's totally ridiculous to sweep back the tide of digital technology.
  • [2009/09/03 17:46] Andrew Linden: do you mean that the viewer can lag or block when the simulator also blocks?
  • [2009/09/03 17:46] Charlette Proto: Tech no need to wikipedia now
  • [2009/09/03 17:47] Trinity Coulter: i wouldn't think anyone here is trying to sweep away a tide of progress
  • [2009/09/03 17:47] xstorm Radek: it seems when we start getting the lag the server will do a LLVIEWERTHrottle
  • [2009/09/03 17:47] Andrew Linden: oh hrm...
  • [2009/09/03 17:47] reddot99 Republic: that isnt the server,
  • [2009/09/03 17:47] Charlette Proto: agree with trinity; uniqueness is not a rebelion against technology
  • [2009/09/03 17:48] reddot99 Republic: that is a veiwerside event from what i understand
  • [2009/09/03 17:48] xstorm Radek: its saying server
  • [2009/09/03 17:48] Patty1 Rosca: yep
  • [2009/09/03 17:48] Ardy Lay: Bandwidth management?
  • [2009/09/03 17:48] Trinity Coulter: let me get out my slave and my donkey and my clay house and turn back the tide
  • [2009/09/03 17:48] xstorm Radek: looks that way
  • [2009/09/03 17:48] reddot99 Republic: bandwidth is beeing throttled,
  • [2009/09/03 17:48] Trinity Coulter: :)
  • [2009/09/03 17:48] xstorm Radek: yes
  • [2009/09/03 17:48] Andrew Linden: LLViewerThrottle appears to be related to bandwidth management
  • [2009/09/03 17:48] Morgaine Dinova: Trinity: it's a rebellion against digital technology because we've spent years explaining why the arms race can't be won, yet you persist.
  • [2009/09/03 17:49] Trinity Coulter: me?
  • [2009/09/03 17:49] reddot99 Republic: probably raising throttle limit to compensate for lack of data
  • [2009/09/03 17:49] Andrew Linden: my guess is that when the server blocks for a while (a couple seconds for example) it piles up messages while it is blocked
  • [2009/09/03 17:49] Morgaine Dinova: Talk about sweeping back the tide. It's pointless even discussing it, dunno why we bother.
  • [2009/09/03 17:49] xstorm Radek: bandwith is going down to 0
  • [2009/09/03 17:49] Andrew Linden: it then processes those messages when it stops blocking
  • [2009/09/03 17:49] Rex Cronon: we could continue this discussion about IP after the OH:)
  • [2009/09/03 17:49] Andrew Linden: and it seems to the simulator that it is getting flooded with packets
  • [2009/09/03 17:49] Andrew Linden: whin in fact they have just piled up
  • [2009/09/03 17:49] xstorm Radek: 0 bandwith is not helping
  • [2009/09/03 17:50] Andrew Linden: however, that network management code is not something that I have looked at in years
  • [2009/09/03 17:50] Andrew Linden: and I didnt' write it in the first place
  • [2009/09/03 17:50] reddot99 Republic: zero bandwidth is server freezing,
  • [2009/09/03 17:50] Ardy Lay: xstorm, that's client receive bandwidth at 0 while the server is blocked
  • [2009/09/03 17:50] xstorm Radek: it may need looking in to again
  • [2009/09/03 17:50] Ardy Lay: The client continues to send
  • [2009/09/03 17:50] reddot99 Republic: and ceasing to transmit,
  • [2009/09/03 17:50] Trinity Coulter: Morgaine, it would be wonderful if you not pick on me specifically.... and it might help you to read what I have said too [17:24] Trinity Coulter: isn't it pretty much a lost cause in SL right now, the way that assets are handled by the Viewer?
  • [2009/09/03 17:50] Ardy Lay: until the server wakes up and says "Whoa there"
  • [2009/09/03 17:51] xstorm Radek: 0 bandwith gave me 50 FPS then a timeout and crash
  • [2009/09/03 17:51] Morgaine Dinova: Trinity: sorry, it looks like I responded to the wrong person.
  • [2009/09/03 17:51] Morgaine Dinova: Reading back
  • [2009/09/03 17:51] Trinity Coulter: not sure what I did, but I'd rather hear the discussion than have to defend myself from personal attacks
  • [2009/09/03 17:51] Ardy Lay: xstorm, sure, you draw that picture locally, nor download it.
  • [2009/09/03 17:51] Andrew Linden: Yes, the network code needs work. We're in the process of moving toward REST-ful data protocols (such as HTTP) which should help with bandwidth management
  • [2009/09/03 17:52] Ardy Lay: -nor +not
  • [2009/09/03 17:52] Trinity Coulter: oh that sounds really useful, Andrew
  • [2009/09/03 17:52] xstorm Radek: oh ok thank you :-)
  • [2009/09/03 17:52] Techwolf Lupindo: REST as in...?
  • [2009/09/03 17:52] Andrew Linden: what does "REST" stand for again? I forgot
  • [2009/09/03 17:52] reddot99 Republic: that is where the veiwer autodisconnects after a period of inactivity
  • [2009/09/03 17:52] xstorm Radek: *GIGGLES* :)~[2009/09/03 17:52] Trinity Coulter: Representational State Transfer
  • [2009/09/03 17:52] Trinity Coulter: Representational state transfer (REST) is a style of software architecture for distributed hypermedia systems such as the World Wide Web.
  • [2009/09/03 17:53] Andrew Linden: Yeah that's it. I had the first word in mind this time.
  • [2009/09/03 17:53] reddot99 Republic: for the zero bandwidh then the 'crash'
  • [2009/09/03 17:53] xstorm Radek: i was thinking there needs to be a better load indicater for the servers
  • [2009/09/03 17:53] Morgaine Dinova: The OGP work is long term though, so don't expect much in the way of REST protocols anytime soon
  • [2009/09/03 17:53] Trinity Coulter: Client-server, Stateless, Cacheable, Uniform interface, Layered system
  • [2009/09/03 17:53] Andrew Linden: Basically it means a protocol with Get Put Delete and mabye a few more commands
  • [2009/09/03 17:54] Techwolf Lupindo: http was never disigned to scale to what it is now. But the protucuile was simple to start with and was flexiable that stuff keep getting added to it untill the entire Internet hardware was built for it.
  • [2009/09/03 17:54] Andrew Linden: Well, the servers shouldn't block.
  • [2009/09/03 17:54] Morgaine Dinova: Even the specs won't be done for a year or more, and the expected timescale for the OGP years has been estimated at 3 years
  • [2009/09/03 17:54] Morgaine Dinova: OGP work*
  • [2009/09/03 17:54] Andrew Linden: That's how I would tackle the problem in the short term -- find all the spots where they block and protect those or fix them
  • [2009/09/03 17:54] Ardy Lay: Andrew, sounds like a plan.
  • [2009/09/03 17:55] Ardy Lay: SVC-3895
  • [2009/09/03 17:55] Meeter: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3895
  • [#SVC-3895] Rezzing Mono scripted object cripples sim FPS
  • [2009/09/03 17:55] Andrew Linden: Now if only I had a small army of developers to lead into battle.
  • [2009/09/03 17:55] Ardy Lay: And friends.
  • [2009/09/03 17:55] Ardy Lay: Hehe
  • [2009/09/03 17:55] xstorm Radek: i have to go thank you seems corfeld had a problem again
  • [2009/09/03 17:55] Trinity Coulter: is that blocking stuff part of why its so hard to teleport sometimes also?
  • [2009/09/03 17:55] xstorm Radek: bye
  • [2009/09/03 17:55] Ardy Lay: Sorry. Can't help you there.
  • [2009/09/03 17:55] Meeter: Timecheck : office hours is almost over
  • [2009/09/03 17:55] Andrew Linden: Yes Ardy, that is an example of one place where it blocks.
  • [2009/09/03 17:55] reddot99 Republic: sdding multitreaded processing might help for the the blocks
  • [2009/09/03 17:55] Charlette Proto: how did Second Life™ get built on UDP in the first place when HTTP was the thing of the times since the early 1990s
  • [2009/09/03 17:56] Andrew Linden: multithreading the simulator is probably not a good idea at this point however...
  • [2009/09/03 17:56] Morgaine Dinova: Philip came from Real Networks, so was used to UDP-based streaming
  • [2009/09/03 17:56] Ardy Lay: SL is hardly a media stream.
  • [2009/09/03 17:56] Techwolf Lupindo: "Buffering...."
  • [2009/09/03 17:56] Techwolf Lupindo: :-)
  • [2009/09/03 17:56] Andrew Linden: another way to tackle that plan is to pull the simulator apart and split functionality into different processes
  • [2009/09/03 17:56] Andrew Linden: which is the way we're planning on doing it
  • [2009/09/03 17:57] reddot99 Republic: yeah, i can see where it would require a reworking of the whole system,
  • [2009/09/03 17:57] Andrew Linden: the simulator is already split up a little bit...
  • [2009/09/03 17:57] Ardy Lay: People do keep confusing SL with a media stream for some reason.
  • [2009/09/03 17:57] Charlette Proto: Second Life™ is mainly textures and text and both require Integrity and not real time data
  • [2009/09/03 17:57] Andrew Linden: but there are parts in there that still need to be cut out
  • [2009/09/03 17:57] Charlette Proto: when a man hold a hammer everything is a nail to him I suppose
  • [2009/09/03 17:57] Morgaine Dinova: Coolness, Andrew. We were trying to get Zero to re-architect the sim from the start of AWG 2 years ago, but he wasn't having any of it.
  • [2009/09/03 17:58] Trinity Coulter: Andrew, would it help if more of the simulation was done in the resident's computer.... or is it already working that way now?
  • [2009/09/03 17:58] Charlette Proto: simulation is practically all clientside
  • [2009/09/03 17:58] Andrew Linden: No Trinity, the SL client does little to no simulation.
  • [2009/09/03 17:58] reddot99 Republic: i'd be greatly impressed if the scripts and physics were run in parallel processes
  • [2009/09/03 17:58] Andrew Linden: And I'm on the "we should not move simulation to the client" camp.
  • [2009/09/03 17:58] Morgaine Dinova: No simulation client-side, apart from heuristic position estimation
  • [2009/09/03 17:58] reddot99 Republic: im there two,
  • [2009/09/03 17:59] Andrew Linden: Morgaine is correct.
  • [2009/09/03 17:59] reddot99 Republic: too,
  • [2009/09/03 17:59] Trinity Coulter: so now that we know which camp you're in, we know which t-shirt to get for you :)
  • [2009/09/03 17:59] Techwolf Lupindo: phyciks can be done clientside, but that would open up a whole new can of worms of combat exploits. Never trust the data from the client.
  • [2009/09/03 17:59] Andrew Linden: Many people have argued that the avatar motion should have more client-side simulation
  • [2009/09/03 17:59] Andrew Linden: I'm willing to be persuaded on that one.
  • [2009/09/03 18:00] reddot99 Republic: as tech said, combat would be possibly ruined by that,
  • [2009/09/03 18:00] Meeter: Thank you for coming to Linden office hours
  • [2009/09/03 18:00] Charlette Proto: one thing should go clientside for sure - HUD and avie scripts
  • [2009/09/03 18:00] Trinity Coulter: just record hours of stuff and put it on YouTube and just play that through the Viewer
  • [2009/09/03 18:00] Andrew Linden: Ok so it looks like the hour is up, and I've got this showstopper bug to work on.
  • [2009/09/03 18:00] Morgaine Dinova: Client machinery scales with population, and servers don't ... so in the long term, one should try to harness client-side power for simulation as well. Unfortunately, that's hard to do safely.
  • [2009/09/03 18:00] Ardy Lay: Hmm.... unscheduled maintenace warning
  • [2009/09/03 18:00] Andrew Linden: So I'm going to head out now and get cracking on it again.
  • [2009/09/03 18:00] Charlette Proto: good luck Andrew
  • [2009/09/03 18:01] Trinity Coulter: bye Andrew, ty for the feedback and time :)
  • [2009/09/03 18:01] Andrew Linden: Thanks.
  • [2009/09/03 18:01] Rex Cronon: tc andrw
  • [2009/09/03 18:01] Andrew Linden: Thanks for coming everyone.
  • [2009/09/03 18:01] Ardy Lay: Thanks Andrew!
  • [2009/09/03 18:01] Morgaine Dinova: Take care Andrew. And sorry we sort of messed up your hour with protectionist issues
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