User:Andrew Linden/Office Hours/2010 06 01

Transcript

[10:57]	Elisha Richez:	i got mine at 7 weeks.....hes good cat but took forever to ween him
[10:58]	Elisha Richez:	kept trying to suck on me
[10:58]	Elisha Richez:	olah simon
[10:58]	Ardy Lay:	Hey, when that's all you know that's what you do.
[10:58]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	Hi Simon
[10:58]	Liisa Runo:	this one dont eat from mom anymore, only one of the 4 kittens did it a week a go, but mine had already moved to catfood
[10:58]	Ardy Lay:	Hi Simon
[10:59]	Imaze Rhiano:	hi
[10:59]	Bronson Blackadder:	simon :)
[10:59]	Bronson Blackadder:	meow
[10:59]	Roland Riddler:	Hello ツ
[10:59]	Simon Linden:	Hello ... sorry to rez and run, but going to grab some coffee while the data gets here ... :)
[10:59]	Ardy Lay:	Hehe
[10:59]	Rex Cronon:	hi simon. hi everybody
[10:59]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	Hi Rex
[10:59]	Rex Cronon:	will u be back?
[11:00]	Liisa Runo:	he will
[11:00]	Welcome to	Linden office hours
[11:00]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	Hi Andrew
[11:00]	Rex Cronon:	hi andrew
[11:00]	Slee Mayo:	*looks at watch
[11:00]	Andrew Linden:	Hello
[11:01]	Ardy Lay:	Hi Andrew
[11:01]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	Just get out of the gym, andrew?
[11:01]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	*giggles*
[11:01]	Bronson Blackadder:	andrew :)
[11:01]	Bronson Blackadder:	meow
[11:02]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	cool av rex
[11:02]	Rex Cronon:	u know andrew i have something "nice" to show today:)
[11:02]	Rex Cronon:	thanks:)
[11:03]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	Hi Rev
[11:03]	RevMagdalen Kyrie:	Hi :-)
[11:03]	Rex Cronon:	a "nice" prims that can mess somebody who tries to copybot something:)
[11:03]	Rex Cronon:	prim*
[11:03]	Andrew Linden:	I wasn't here on Friday, so Simon was leading the office hours.
[11:04]	lonetorus Habilis:	rex, you mean the prim that crashes clients?
[11:04]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	Oh?
[11:04]	lonetorus Habilis:	when selected for editing
[11:04]	Rex Cronon:	u heard about it? so is known
[11:04]	lonetorus Habilis:	its known, yes
[11:04]	Roland Riddler:	o.O
[11:04]	lonetorus Habilis:	hmm, maybe a month maybe 6 weeks
[11:04]	Imaze Rhiano:	prim of death!
[11:05]	Simon Linden:	Not much news from me today ... not much has happened since Friday afternoon's office hours :)
[11:05]	lonetorus Habilis:	but ill be interested what andrew makes of it, rex
[11:05]	Rex Cronon:	lenetorus. u have one too?
[11:06]	Rex Cronon:	what i am curious is if others crash when they select it
[11:06]	Andrew Linden:	Rex, tell me more about this "nice" prim?
[11:06]	Rex Cronon:	or only the owner
[11:06]	Latif Khalifa:	Simon, not even some good grill?
[11:06]	Latif Khalifa:	;)
[11:06]	Rex Cronon:	going to rez it on the table:)
[11:06]	Roland Riddler:	r u talking about that one that was handed out by the emerald devs?
[11:06]	Simon Linden:	Not much grilling activity, unfortinately. I still have to clean off the BBQ
[11:07]	Rex Cronon:	i don't know what will happen if non-owners select it, but i know it crashes me when i do
[11:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	Well we haven't crashed yet :P
[11:07]	Liisa Runo:	im not crashing
[11:07]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	good here too
[11:07]	Rex Cronon:	did u select it?
[11:07]	Imaze Rhiano:	nothing happens
[11:07]	Morgaine Dinova:	Yup, selected to edit and inspect
[11:07]	Rex Cronon:	cool
[11:07]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	isnt Jcool410 fractured?
[11:07]	lonetorus Habilis:	yes
[11:08]	Rex Cronon:	i can't edit it. if i try i crash
[11:08]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	thought so
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	Well, it is a "nice" prim right? It is the copy that is supposed to cause problems?
[11:08]	Rex Cronon:	if u copy it andrew. rezz it, and try to edit it u might crash
[11:08]	lonetorus Habilis:	well, theory is, if you copybot it , it keeps its properties, and will crash the next owner, can be included in a product or something
[11:08]	Imaze Rhiano:	I hope that you didn't paid much from it :P
[11:08]	Andrew Linden:	Well Rex, I don't think copybots necessarily select an obejct in order to copy it.
[11:08]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	maybe you have a copybotted prim of an anti copybotted prim lol
[11:08]	lonetorus Habilis:	nsomething along those lines
[11:09]	Elisha Richez:	that crashed me nicely
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	The LL viewer uses selection as a scoping feature of the user interface.
[11:09]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	you crashed Elisha?
[11:09]	Elisha Richez:	yep
[11:09]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	Hmm
[11:09]	Elisha Richez:	tried to edit it
[11:09]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	What viewer Elisha?
[11:09]	Rex Cronon:	i warned u. i don't know how it affects people
[11:09]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... I selected it and did not crash (Windows 2.0.1)
[11:09]	Elisha Richez:	normal 1.23 viewer
[11:10]	lonetorus Habilis:	the one i have somewhere, will crash me
[11:10]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	Hmm same here
[11:10]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	I was fine
[11:10]	lonetorus Habilis:	but not the one rex has here on the table
[11:10]	Rex Cronon:	rez one u own andrew
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	Rex, what viewer are you using?
[11:10]	Rex Cronon:	1.23
[11:10]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	1.23.5 here also
[11:10]	lonetorus Habilis:	brb
[11:10]	Andrew Linden:	Also, btw I think most copybotting is happening via 3rd party viewers -- the LL viewer doesn't have any copybot functionality built-in.
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	viewer 1.23 is rather old, unfortunately. They aren't maintaining it except for security exploits that I know of.
[11:11]	Rex Cronon:	i don't think anybody ever claimed that u can copybot things using the ll viewer:)
[11:11]	Elisha Richez:	wb lone
[11:11]	Andrew Linden:	Did anyone crash on selection for viewer 2.0.+?
[11:12]	Liisa Runo:	no one is using v2 :P
[11:12]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	*coughs*
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	Oh really? I has assumed most people had migrated.
[11:12]	Liisa Runo:	that is marketing propaganda
[11:12]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	Thats what you get for assuming :)
[11:12]	Andrew Linden:	What are your reasons for sticking to 1.23? I'm curious.
[11:13]	Morgaine Dinova:	Andrew: 1.x is still your best viewer. 2.x will only become that when it regains the lost functionality of 1.x and allows the bad UI features to be switched off.
[11:13]	Imaze Rhiano	is using emerald beta - nothing happens
[11:13]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	The nasty GUI
[11:13]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	Makes some sick
[11:13]	Rex Cronon:	i don't like the GUI for v2.0
[11:13]	Andrew Linden:	Where the nasty UI is the sidebar for the most part?
[11:13]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	ALl of it
[11:13]	Elisha Richez:	i would use 2.0 if the radar worked better and had more info like distance and age.....also if it had double click teleporting
[11:13]	Morgaine Dinova:	Actually Andrew knows full well the score with V2, I expect he's silently chuckling :-)
[11:13]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	Top bar, side bar, colors, etc..
[11:13]	Liisa Runo:	and the waty communicating works is pain too
[11:13]	Liisa Runo:	way*
[11:14]	Elisha Richez:	that part i like liisa
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	Ok Elisha, so you don't like the changed locations of the menu items and also the loss of the pie menu?
[11:14]	Imaze Rhiano:	I like more from old viewer UI, also emerald features like LSL editor, LSL preprocessor, radar and client side AO are great
[11:14]	Rex Cronon:	well lonetorus. i can select your prim in edit mode and it doesn't crash me
[11:14]	Imaze Rhiano:	oh... and temporal texture uploads
[11:14]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	Get rid of the GUI and people might migrate to it right off the bat
[11:14]	Roland Riddler:	http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_2_Tweaks/Full_2.0.0.203055
[11:14]	Elisha Richez:	i like that part too andrew
[11:14]	Andrew Linden:	Oh right, the IM alerts in the lower bar... I don't like that either.
[11:14]	Roland Riddler:	includes double click teleporting ;-)
[11:14]	Morgaine Dinova:	Since Andrew does not have influence on the viewer and is just doing PR for V2 now, I guess we talk about server issues.
[11:14]	Morgaine Dinova:	suggest*
[11:14]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	Yah that too.. way to complicated for oldbies
[11:15]	Elisha Richez:	oh thanks roland
[11:15]	Imaze Rhiano:	context menu is better than pie menu- IMHO
[11:15]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	Yeah Morgaine... wheres the OH for v2 lol
[11:15]	Elisha Richez:	yah i agree
[11:15]	Andrew Linden:	Well, I was curious about the takes on Viewer-2.0. I've pretty much switched over
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	but I'm not an SL power user, amazingly enough.
[11:16]	Elisha Richez:	hehe
[11:16]	Andrew Linden:	I don't send a lot of IM's, for example
[11:16]	Morgaine Dinova:	Lisa: the OH for V2 is Samuel Linden's, on Weds, 30 mins @ 11:30am PDT, just before Nyx's OH
[11:16]	Rex Cronon:	well i am glad that prim can't be used to crash those that don't own it
[11:16]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	Oh? GREAT! Thanks Morgaine!
[11:16]	Ardy Lay:	V2 still slows me down and some parts of the UI just do NOT make sense.
[11:17]	Ardy Lay:	It's still eveolving internally so ...
[11:17]	Elisha Richez:	i mostly use hotkeys for functions so the UI is pretty easy for me I guess
[11:17]	Slee Mayo:	relog
[11:17]	Morgaine Dinova:	V2 doesn't address this audience, but only newbies, so I'm not surprised Groupies mostly don't like it.
[11:17]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	True Morgaine.. I agree
[11:17]	Andrew Linden:	Anyone who has been attending the V2 OH... are there any indications that they are listening to the general dislike of the new UI?
[11:18]	Rex Cronon:	btw, somebody made a nice grieffing module for a moded viewer. this"addition" spams in IM:(
[11:18]	lonetorus Habilis:	larger grey one crashes me, anyone else "ded prim"
[11:18]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	Hell I can tell you that.. much less anyone else.. NO they do not
[11:18]	Ardy Lay:	Andrew, listening, yes
[11:18]	lonetorus Habilis:	?
[11:18]	Ardy Lay:	Reverting, no
[11:18]	Imaze Rhiano:	No lonetorus - I hope that you ddin't pay much from it :P
[11:18]	lonetorus Habilis:	andrew, im in mesh beta
[11:18]	lonetorus Habilis:	ppl there dont like it much
[11:19]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	No Lone
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	lonetorus, in the mesh beta they have a new viewer with changed UI?
[11:19]	Andrew Linden:	or are you saying the LL devs working on mesh don't like the new UI?
[11:19]	Bronson Blackadder:	same UI
[11:19]	Rex Cronon:	too bad is no transfer, else i would send u one imaze:)
[11:20]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	Isnt all mesh beta , NDA?
[11:20]	SL Status:	[POSTED] AvatarsUnited.com currently unavailable
[11:20]	Latif Khalifa:	andrew, no hope for viewer2, the viewer team seems to be stubbornly refusing to ackowlege that people don't like the ui
[11:20]	Slee Mayo:	reddot, longtime no see
[11:20]	reddot99 Republic:	hey
[11:20]	Andrew Linden:	ok thanks for the info... interesting
[11:21]	Rex Cronon:	i don't think theyt break the NDA if they say they don't like the gui:)
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	alas, I don't have much influence on V2, it is true
[11:21]	Latif Khalifa:	Q Linden is basically saying "we know better than you" and if you don't like it it's just that you are not used to it, there is nothing wrong with the UI
[11:21]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	No.. I was told that and asking :) But yeah.. small bits should be ok
[11:21]	Andrew Linden:	but I'll ask around and see what those involved are thinking
[11:21]	Slee Mayo:	sounds like the US congress
[11:21]	Latif Khalifa:	lol
[11:21]	Elisha Richez:	woe...hey red : )
[11:22]	reddot99 Republic:	cept they dont run election campaigns
[11:22]	Rex Cronon:	there are also those that say "u don't like v2 b because u don't like change"
[11:23]	Latif Khalifa:	well sooner or later they'll have to ask why are they fewer and fewer people in sl
[11:23]	Latif Khalifa:	http://taterunino.net/statcharts/median_conc_by_day400.jpg
[11:23]	lonetorus Habilis:	andrew, no the gui is public information, and thus not covered by the nda on mesh beta at least thats how i see it
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	It sounds like the ecosystem for 3rd party viewers is going to grow while V2 continues to be rejected
[11:23]	Liisa Runo:	yea, people can adapt, it is possible to get used to see the world trough caleidoscope, dont make any sense, but possible
[11:23]	Andrew Linden:	but lonetorus, the UI isn't changed in the mesh viewer, right?
[11:23]	Latif Khalifa:	i guess that's one way to solve concurrency problem: make a UI that only a few like so people don't bother coming into SL anymore
[11:24]	Latif Khalifa:	Andrew, no it's the same viewer2 one
[11:24]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	lol latif
[11:24]	lonetorus Habilis:	and to answer your question, the participant residents seem to dislike it pretty loudly, but we get told to focus on mesh stuff instead XD and (some) of the linden devs seem to agree with the dislike of the gui, though you can sense they have a feeling of not wanting to say anything negative about it
[11:24]	lonetorus Habilis:	XD
[11:25]	Rex Cronon:	i think u guys at ll had to add at least one new floater/window to allow some mesh properties editing:)
[11:25]	reddot99 Republic:	someone pointed this out to me, and i thought it strange, veiwer two is based on the apple webkit
[11:25]	reddot99 Republic:	why is that?
[11:25]	Latif Khalifa:	webkit is used to display html on the prim
[11:25]	Latif Khalifa:	and search, and other places where html needs rendering
[11:25]	lonetorus Habilis:	andrew same as v2 as far as i can tell
[11:26]	reddot99 Republic:	so its grabbing the most easily availible code and using that for stuff?
[11:26]	lonetorus Habilis:	except it contains the new mesh stuff
[11:26]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	with all this IP spoofing and snatching going on, do you think that is really a "GOOD" idea to use web on a prim? (Not that I care)
[11:26]	Andrew Linden:	I heard that they were going to try to work more in snowglobe and improve engagement with the opensource contributors
[11:26]	Simon Linden:	Are people giving concrete examples of stuff that's worse in V2? I mean, something that's 5 clicks now instead of 3, for example. That might make it easier to understand the problems
[11:26]	lonetorus Habilis:	thouth to be honest, it may not be a up to date for of v2
[11:26]	RevMagdalen Kyrie:	I like V2 except that by default it is set to auto play media and also the advanced menu is hidden
[11:26]	reddot99 Republic:	no minimap button
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	it seems to me that snowglobe could be modified to revert or improve the UI
[11:27]	Techwolf Lupindo:	Simion, just look on the pjira, i've seen at least 3 expamples of that.
[11:27]	Simon Linden:	I've been using it but am also not a real power user ... occasinally doing a bit of building, but not much IM or other functions
[11:27]	lonetorus Habilis:	most gripes are about the lack of usable screen space, for chatting building shoppiing etc
[11:27]	lonetorus Habilis:	the side bar thing gets most blame
[11:27]	lonetorus Habilis:	and the twitter style chat
[11:27]	Simon Linden:	That's good, Techwolf. Hopefully they will pay attention to that someday
[11:27]	Andrew Linden:	however I haven't been involved in snowglobe... don't know if any strides have actually been made there
[11:27]	lonetorus Habilis:	not all of us have super large monitors and high rez gfx
[11:27]	Simon Linden:	I can't stand the chat unless I put it in simple format
[11:28]	Latif Khalifa:	argh twitter style chat makes it useless for meetings like this unless you open chat history
[11:28]	Rex Cronon:	there is whole forum dedicated to v2. and there are quite a few threads there about what usersrs thing is wrong with v2 GUI
[11:28]	reddot99 Republic:	from what i've heard, its next to impossible to use for combat or anything similar
[11:28]	Techwolf Lupindo:	"[Grid Status] [POSTED] AvatarsUnited.com currently unavailable" Yea o/ :-D
[11:28]	Simon Linden:	well, at least they're getting feedback
[11:28]	Techwolf Lupindo	grins
[11:28]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	Agreed , Lone, Labs needs to keep smaller people in mind. meaning, people that dont have 20 - 30 inch monitors like they do
[11:28]	RevMagdalen Kyrie:	I tear off the chat and make it a large centered window when needed to follow it
[11:28]	lonetorus Habilis:	yeh, true, but perhaps the whole sl as a web browser is flawed, since sl is not the world wide web
[11:28]	Bronson Blackadder:	I think snowglobe should keep the 1.23 look and add all the 2.0 under the hood additions
[11:28]	Latif Khalifa:	and if you open chat history and im window, then its just like facebook page, youu're no longer in a world, you are on a web page with tiny little bit of world showing behind
[11:29]	Ardy Lay	hasn't looked ac Facebook. Not interested.
[11:29]	Andrew Linden:	Let see... server side news...
[11:29]	reddot99 Republic:	i like the simple, 1 bar at top, at most 2 bars at bottom
[11:29]	Imaze Rhiano:	maximize 3D area - minimize all other areas
[11:29]	lonetorus Habilis	is not a facebook person either
[11:29]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	Not to mention when we ran it, and use EDIT, it open another application (WHY?) slplugin.exe
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	the server-1.40 pilot will roll next week
[11:30]	office hours	is half over
[11:30]	reddot99 Republic:	1.40 contains what?
[11:30]	Imaze Rhiano:	is Mono being updated?
[11:30]	lonetorus Habilis:	ah good stuff, could you recap the highlights of 1.40 ?
[11:30]	Latif Khalifa:	havok7
[11:30]	lonetorus Habilis:	o/
[11:30]	lonetorus Habilis:	so looking forward to better physics
[11:30]	Andrew Linden:	The main highlight of 1.40 is Havok7.
[11:30]	reddot99 Republic:	havok 7 should be 1.42
[11:30]	Slee Mayo:	the bug/wee prim doesn't work in 1.40
[11:31]	Latif Khalifa:	Imaze, no mono update in 1.40 :(
[11:31]	reddot99 Republic:	just because of 42
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	Not a lot of stuff changed in Havok7 -- the main difference should be less lag during physics-sim-bomb events
[11:31]	lonetorus Habilis:	yay
[11:31]	Max Neumann:	about havock 7... does it make sculptie phys better?
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	however it will still be possible to lag the physics engine... you just have to throw more stuff at it.
[11:31]	reddot99 Republic:	do physics lock up when people enter and exit the sim?
[11:31]	Andrew Linden:	sculptie physics has not been changed
[11:31]	Rex Cronon:	is just harder to crase it:(
[11:32]	lonetorus Habilis:	i dont think we should get our hopes up for propper sculpty physics, ever.
[11:32]	Rex Cronon:	crash*
[11:32]	Max Neumann:	:(
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	the lockup upon entering/exiting a region is not in the physics engine
[11:32]	lonetorus Habilis:	the devs have new shiny stuff they would rather work on
[11:32]	Slee Mayo:	mono scripts
[11:32]	Andrew Linden:	so no real changes there, unfortunately
[11:32]	Rex Cronon:	u might get your hopes up when it comes to proper mesh physics. or shouldn't u?
[11:33]	reddot99 Republic:	physics can start objects moving at previous velocity though to lessen the effects of that though
[11:33]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm... what else is in server-1.40? Some bug fixes that were fixed a long time ago.
[11:33]	lonetorus Habilis:	rex, cant say, nda
[11:33]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Oy, sleep had its grip on me.
[11:33]	Rex Cronon:	i am not trying to make u say anything
[11:34]	Andrew Linden:	The mesh project might address sculptie physics, however you can be sure that sculpties wont' suddenly collide correctly -- too much legacy content made the requires their collision shapes not change automatically.
[11:34]	reddot99 Republic:	what requires their shapes not to be corrected?
[11:35]	Imaze Rhiano:	there is allways some content that is pending somehow to old behaviour
[11:35]	reddot99 Republic:	also, when can we expect a mono fix? or even the object collisions across sim borders?
[11:35]	Andrew Linden:	I don't have an itemized list of what content that would break if sculpties suddenly started to collide more correctly
[11:36]	Simon Linden:	Yeah, something will break or behave in unexpected ways if we change existing sculptie shapes
[11:36]	lonetorus Habilis:	andrew, though on that note, any news on the selectivly phantom prims i a linkset?
[11:36]	Imaze Rhiano:	reddot - when Mono is updated
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	buty we can be sure it would happen
[11:36]	Andrew Linden:	experience tells us as much
[11:36]	reddot99 Republic:	i know how to do that ionetorus
[11:36]	lonetorus Habilis:	yes, but we spoke here some time ago about making it a propper feature
[11:36]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Andrew, I did have a question on the current server version, when we have a moment.
[11:36]	lonetorus Habilis:	and not a hack
[11:37]	Andrew Linden:	lonetorus, could you elaborate on that selectively phantom prims issue?
[11:37]	Andrew Linden:	is that the feature we've talked about here? or is it a bug about it happening when itsn't supposed to?
[11:37]	possible idea:	Forest Beach House V.1.2
[11:37]	possible idea:	Forest Beach House V.1.2
[11:37]	possible idea:	Forest Beach House V.1.2
[11:37]	possible idea:	Forest Beach House V.1.2
[11:37]	possible idea:	Forest Beach House V.1.2
[11:37]	Imagoel Best:	Hi guys ㋡
[11:37]	lonetorus Habilis:	today with volumedetect, you can have a linkset, containing both phantom and non phantom prims
[11:37]	Rex Cronon:	hi
[11:37]	reddot99 Republic:	like that
[11:38]	lonetorus Habilis:	there is a hack today with volumedetect, but there was some talk of making it correct behaviour
[11:38]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	Hi Imagoel
[11:38]	reddot99 Republic:	its the only way to remove a sculpts collison box
[11:38]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Just out of curiosity, how do you pull off that hack?
[11:38]	Liisa Runo:	also with the flexy trick you can have phantom prims in nonphantom linkset, but not very comfy since relink on the set resets it
[11:38]	Andrew Linden:	Ah, VolumeDetect -- behaves sotra like "phantom" but is a distinct feature
[11:39]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	do eithee one of those have a script red?
[11:39]	lonetorus Habilis:	having a build gui checkbox, for setting individual prims phantom would be very cool
[11:39]	reddot99 Republic:	i do have the script seprate, one i have deletes itself
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	I think there are plans to allow non-collision to sub prims in the mesh or first iteration after mesh project
[11:39]	Andrew Linden:	it is something that we've wanted to do for a long time
[11:40]	lonetorus Habilis:	ok, cool beans
[11:40]	Andrew Linden:	Sebastean, you had a question about the current server. Go ahead.
[11:40]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	My sim is currently on Second Life Server 1.38.6.204939
[11:41]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I've got a teleporter I've been working with, and in my new beta version, I switched the teleport method to PosJump, because it was space and memory saving. I haven't released it yet (which is a good thing apparently).
[11:41]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	But just recently, PosJump began to have the teleporters get returned when they jumped.
[11:41]	Rex Cronon:	why is a good thing?
[11:41]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Returned for going off-world.
[11:42]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	there is a way to link prims, one phantom and rest not without scripts
[11:42]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I was wondering if you were aware as to why that was happening, and also if there was a possibility we were getting the replacement for it soon, PRIM_REGION_POS.
[11:42]	Andrew Linden:	He says it is a good thing because PosJump is busted in server-1.40, I think, or maybe busted in 1.38.6?
[11:42]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Busted in the current yserver version, yes. 1.38.6
[11:42]	Simon Linden:	Do you know when that started? 1.38 has had a few revisions, but most were small fixes and shouldn't have changed that at all
[11:42]	reddot99 Republic:	still worked for me,
[11:42]	Rex Cronon:	there r quite a few people that use posjump
[11:42]	reddot99 Republic:	i have napalm and stuff that depends on it working
[11:42]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Simon, I first noticed it probably two weeks ago.
[11:42]	Liisa Runo:	we was promised that posjump dont get killed before we have replacement for it
[11:43]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	It's happened every time the teleporter gets used on my sim since then.
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	yeah, I think we made the decision to not break it until we had something better
[11:43]	reddot99 Republic:	we do have a workaround replacement, but still not a very good one, and yeah,
[11:43]	Imaze Rhiano:	lol... that is like 3rd time when posjump is broken :P
[11:43]	Simon Linden:	Is it staying on the same parcel?
[11:43]	Andrew Linden:	Sebastean, do you have an object that has broken pos-jump?
[11:43]	reddot99 Republic:	also, attempts to move more then 10 meters without
[11:44]	reddot99 Republic:	i might andrew, i didnt see any issues yet
[11:44]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Yes, the beta versions of my teleporters back on my sim
[11:44]	Elisha Richez:	kinda off subject a little but, I noticed in v2 that the nearby radar function doesn't work above 1000m.
[11:44]	Andrew Linden:	Well tell you what. Give me a copy here on the main grid and I'll look into it this afternoon.
[11:45]	reddot99 Republic:	neither does the show nearby for groupinvites and estate ejection tools
[11:45]	Andrew Linden:	I'm sorta at a crossroads in what to work on and can probably find the time today to work on it.
[11:45]	Andrew Linden:	I
[11:45]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Ok Andrew - I'll send it along right after the meeting. I'll just rez a copy and make sure it's breaking the pos-jump; do you need me to set perms on it for you, or can you override those?
[11:45]	Andrew Linden:	I
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	I've got all these blocked projects that need work, but have finished the little sidetrack I was on last week.
[11:46]	Andrew Linden:	Sebastean, I can override perms.
[11:46]	Liisa Runo:	you using <FAR,FAR,0> or <FAR,FAR,FAR> in the posjump?
[11:46]	reddot99 Republic:	object details and group for avatar?
[11:47]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	<FAR,FAR,0> apparently, Liisa
[11:47]	Simon Linden:	I have vague memories of some work done on returning objects that were below ground ... I wonder if that's catching your object
[11:47]	Liisa Runo:	try the other one, i have found it to be more reliable
[11:47]	Simon Linden:	Not sure if it was in 1.38 or 1.40 or whereever
[11:48]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I seem to remember that being mentioned too Simon
[11:48]	reddot99 Republic:	i use the zero method
[11:48]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, that is what I was thinking. It might be the changes to handling underground objects.
[11:48]	Rex Cronon:	how far can u jumpm using FAR>
[11:48]	Rex Cronon:	jump*
[11:49]	reddot99 Republic:	anywhere within sim or short distance across border i think
[11:49]	Rex Cronon:	from sim u r in to any other sim on grid?
[11:49]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Might it be easier at this point to provide a replacement instead of fixing it again?
[11:49]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Rex, only to anywhere within the sim you're in.
[11:49]	Andrew Linden:	I don't want to try to add a replacement until Babbage get's C# working.
[11:49]	Sebastean Steamweaver	nods
[11:49]	Ardy Lay:	llSetPrimitiveParams([PRIM_POSITION, <1.304382E+19, 1.304382E+19, 0.0>, PRIM_POSITION, destpos, PRIM_POSITION, startpos,PRIM_POSITION, destpos]);
[11:50]	reddot99 Republic:	llSetLinkPrimitiveParamsFast(1,[6,<1.304382e19,1.304382e19,0.0>,6,npos]);
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	Fixing LSL bugs/misfeatures just isn't worth it until we get versioning.
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	Fix one thing, break another.
[11:50]	Andrew Linden:	Supporting legacy content (such as PosJump) is just a royal pain.
[11:51]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I can sympathize there
[11:51]	Ardy Lay:	Andrew, that's the fatal flaw of "the implimentation is the documentation".
[11:51]	Andrew Linden:	Fatal, yes.
[11:52]	Rex Cronon:	u said that if u add versioning, it will make things easier
[11:52]	Andrew Linden:	Yeah, versioning would allow us to only fix stuff in later versions.
[11:52]	Andrew Linden:	Anyone who wanted to use legacy versions could do stick with them.
[11:53]	Ardy Lay:	I can see that working for scripts but not physics changes.
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	But new features would only be added in later versions.
[11:53]	reddot99 Republic:	isnt that how the veiwers act?
[11:53]	lonetorus Habilis:	though security bugs will still get fixed across all versions?
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	You're right Ardy. We can't version the physics engine.
[11:53]	reddot99 Republic:	the compilers anyway
[11:53]	Rex Cronon:	at least things won't be broken
[11:53]	Andrew Linden:	yes lonetorus, security bugs would be backported if necessary.
[11:54]	Andrew Linden:	But this versioning I'm talking about would only apply to the script engine and its behavior.
[11:55]	Liisa Runo:	versioning will be cool: LL can hire 800 employees to fix bugs, and another 800 employees to add new features, and everything will go fast and smooth :)
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	Ardy, you had sent me a notecard about your least favorite bug and it was about IM to email failing, right?
[11:55]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	So, script behavior could be legacied, and run, but the effects of script hacks on the sim, or such, might not.
[11:55]	office hours	is almost over
[11:55]	lonetorus Habilis:	mythical man month
[11:55]	Ardy Lay:	Andrew, yes.
[11:55]	lonetorus Habilis:	andrew, yes i have that im to email bug too
[11:55]	lonetorus Habilis:	and i never sent you that email
[11:55]	Andrew Linden:	Ardy, that is for 1-1 IM's, not Group IM's right?
[11:56]	lonetorus Habilis:	XD, you promised to look into it when you had time
[11:56]	Ardy Lay:	Right, 1 to 1, as used for product support by businesses.
[11:56]	reddot99 Republic:	a fix for im-email caps would be nice <.< or an option to disable said cap
[11:56]	lonetorus Habilis:	no atter the setting in client or web page, i dont get offline im's forwarded to email
[11:56]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, yeah that is one of the bugs I'm intending to try to find time to work on.
[11:57]	Ardy Lay:	Great!
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	I need to investigate to see how the IM to email pipeline works -- I don't know much about it right now.
[11:57]	Andrew Linden:	It has changed a few times over the years.
[11:57]	lonetorus Habilis:	heheh, organic code :)
[11:57]	Ardy Lay:	Apparently nobody still at the lab knows much about it.
[11:57]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	Sad to say. but i get all my IMs to email (Spam)
[11:57]	reddot99 Republic:	group notices also fill the cap on ims
[11:58]	reddot99 Republic:	as do inventory offers
[11:58]	Liisa Runo:	and return messages
[11:58]	Ardy Lay:	What's bugging me is delivery reliability used to be excellent and is not less than 50%.
[11:58]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Eventually, SL client code will get so complex, it will start self-replicating and evolving. :P
[11:58]	reddot99 Republic:	return messages dont get sent to me anymore at all
[11:58]	Rex Cronon:	well i had an object send an im to me. and even though i was in same sim, the IMs were also sent to my email. i had to delte a few hundred of them:(
[11:59]	lonetorus Habilis:	mine stopped working before the new asset server deployment, late 2008/early 2009, after one of those "a select number of people will be affected" are sl avatars still grouped together and bound to a physical server ?
[11:59]	Ardy Lay:	is NOW less than 50%
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	reddot99, here "cap" refers to "limit" rathere than a shortcut to the term "capabilities"?
[11:59]	Simon Linden:	Yes Seb, but it will just make more windows and ui widgets
[11:59]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I love the living client already.
[11:59]	reddot99 Republic:	cap as in limit. as in your ims have been capped
[11:59]	Andrew Linden:	Is there and IM to email cap? Hrm... I guess there would have to be.
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	Ardy do you think maybe you are hitting the IM to email cap limit?
[12:00]	reddot99 Republic:	also applies to ims returned to client when you log back in
[12:00]	Andrew Linden:	Are these during times of many IM's?
[12:00]	Thank you	for coming to Linden office hours
[12:00]	Ardy Lay:	Andrew, not really.
[12:00]	Ardy Lay:	The missing messages are not just the most recently sent ones.
[12:00]	lonetorus Habilis:	i never get ANY offline im's via email
[12:00]	reddot99 Republic:	40+of anything while offline is enough to hit the cap i think.
[12:01]	lonetorus Habilis:	seems to be closer to 30
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	lonetorus, there is a setting to allow or disallow IM to email somewhere.
[12:01]	reddot99 Republic:	maybe, that was a roughestimation,
[12:01]	RevMagdalen Kyrie:	bye
[12:01]	reddot99 Republic:	its in the client, but it sends to server
[12:01]	Andrew Linden:	Also, is your profile's email address correct?
[12:01]	lonetorus Habilis:	andrew, yes, and no tter if its on o off, set in client or on the web profile, still no im to email for me
[12:02]	lonetorus Habilis:	yes
[12:02]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	ctrl+p communication
[12:02]	lonetorus Habilis:	correct email
[12:02]	Rex Cronon:	tc
[12:02]	AnnMarie Otoole:	I have a request for consideration. Have temporary status clock reset each time temporary is set. That way vehicles and aircraft gettng stuck in no-script parcels can self destruct yet continue by resetting temporary status when scripts are working.
[12:02]	lonetorus Habilis:	i get other emails from LL
[12:02]	lonetorus Habilis:	for transactions etc
[12:02]	lonetorus Habilis:	so its not spam filter
[12:02]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	Good idea AnnMarie!
[12:02]	lonetorus Habilis:	also, it used to work as intended when my av was less than 1 year old
[12:03]	reddot99 Republic:	if your sitting on it, it doesnt get cleans
[12:03]	Andrew Linden:	Hrm. Well lonetorus I might investigate your IM to email problem -- it might help me get started digging through the relevant code.
[12:03]	reddot99 Republic:	cleaned out
[12:03]	lonetorus Habilis:	shall i still send you a email reminder?
[12:03]	Andrew Linden:	lonetorus, yes send me an email from the account that you think should be receiving the emails.
[12:04]	lonetorus Habilis:	ok, will do :)
[12:04]	lonetorus Habilis:	thanks :)
[12:04]	Simon Linden:	I have to run ... thanks everyone for coming
[12:04]	Andrew Linden:	Ok, I've got to go get stuff done.
[12:04]	Simon Linden:	See you next time
[12:04]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Take care
[12:04]	Simon Linden:	Bye everybody
[12:04]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	I'll send you the teleporter in a minute Andrew
[12:04]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	thanks Somon and Andrew!
[12:04]	Imaze Rhiano:	bye!
[12:04]	Sebastean Steamweaver:	Take care all - I poof.
[12:04]	Bau Ur:	Bye!
[12:04]	lonetorus Habilis:	rex, did you test if my prim crashes you?
[12:04]	Andrew Linden:	Thanks for coming everyone.
[12:04]	Morgaine Dinova:	Ta'ra Andrew, Simon :-)
[12:04]	LisaDeanna Zhora:	Simon*
[12:04]	Ardy Lay:	Good bye Andrew, Simon!

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